WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:08.210 --> 00:00:10.490 I'm Travis Bader, and this is The 00:00:10.490 --> 00:00:11.660 Silvercore Podcast. 00:00:13.280 --> 00:00:15.140 Join me as I discuss matters related to 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:17.180 hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits 00:00:17.450 --> 00:00:19.380 with the people in businesses that comprise 00:00:19.380 --> 00:00:20.030 of the community. 00:00:20.870 --> 00:00:22.760 If you're a new to Silvercore, be sure to 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:26.960 check out our website, www.Silvercore.ca where 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:29.300 you can learn more about courses, services, and 00:00:29.300 --> 00:00:31.460 products that we offer as well as how you can 00:00:31.460 --> 00:00:34.099 join The Silvercore Club, which includes 10 million 00:00:34.100 --> 00:00:36.560 in North America wide liability insurance to 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:38.810 ensure you are properly covered during your 00:00:38.810 --> 00:00:39.690 outdoor adventures. 00:00:43.160 --> 00:00:45.290 Before we get into this episode, I want 00:00:45.290 --> 00:00:47.060 you to know that the Silvercore clubs 00:00:47.150 --> 00:00:49.610 Ultimate Firefighter Tuition Giveaway with 00:00:49.610 --> 00:00:52.220 the Training Division in Texas is now live. 00:00:53.540 --> 00:00:57.490 No strings, no games, absolutely free to enter. 00:00:58.240 --> 00:00:59.680 All you have to do is write in and 00:00:59.680 --> 00:01:01.900 tell us why you feel you deserve to win. 00:01:02.770 --> 00:01:04.629 The Training Division will provide all of your 00:01:04.629 --> 00:01:07.510 training, your lodging, your food, everything. 00:01:08.410 --> 00:01:10.660 All you have to do is get yourself to their 00:01:10.660 --> 00:01:12.220 location in Texas. 00:01:13.390 --> 00:01:16.000 This would cost over $6,000 if you 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.710 paid on your own, and it represents a 00:01:17.710 --> 00:01:21.580 life-changing opportunity to one lucky winner, full 00:01:21.580 --> 00:01:23.230 details on Silvercore.ca. 00:01:23.880 --> 00:01:29.580 Today I'm joined by renowned hunter, 00:01:29.670 --> 00:01:33.000 angler, gardener, cook, professional author, and 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:34.710 lover of Gwar, Hank Shaw. 00:01:37.220 --> 00:01:38.140 Gwar!! 00:01:39.070 --> 00:01:40.570 Welcome to the podcast Hank. 00:01:41.310 --> 00:01:42.240 Thanks for having me on. 00:01:42.600 --> 00:01:43.380 Absolutely. 00:01:43.590 --> 00:01:45.180 Man it's been a while since screaming through 00:01:45.180 --> 00:01:47.060 the Sierra Nevada in your Subaru, while I 00:01:47.170 --> 00:01:49.440 chowed down on your lunch of salmon collars. 00:01:49.650 --> 00:01:50.220 Yeah, I know. 00:01:50.220 --> 00:01:52.110 And it's even been a long time since we met 00:01:52.110 --> 00:01:53.970 each other in Vancouver for that dinner. 00:01:54.285 --> 00:01:55.035 That was fun. 00:01:55.065 --> 00:01:55.935 That was a lot of fun. 00:01:56.055 --> 00:01:56.555 Yeah. 00:01:56.565 --> 00:01:57.285 I enjoyed that. 00:01:57.695 --> 00:01:59.805 That was abattoir, wasn't it? 00:02:00.395 --> 00:02:03.365 It was, it was, I think it was 2018 was it not? 00:02:03.635 --> 00:02:04.835 Going back a few years. 00:02:05.225 --> 00:02:06.025 Yeah. Man. 00:02:06.215 --> 00:02:07.505 And then of course COVID hit. 00:02:08.104 --> 00:02:12.575 I got, I got to imagine with your background 00:02:12.605 --> 00:02:14.945 and the videos you put out and the podcast 00:02:14.945 --> 00:02:16.595 you put out and the books you put out, 00:02:18.035 --> 00:02:22.775 COVID probably brought a lot more eyes to you. 00:02:22.865 --> 00:02:23.905 Is that a fair assessment? 00:02:24.155 --> 00:02:25.415 That is a fair assessment. 00:02:25.415 --> 00:02:28.454 I was just talking to a fellow, food blogger 00:02:28.475 --> 00:02:31.515 friend of mine, and we're all like shaking our 00:02:31.535 --> 00:02:35.285 head because everyone got this insane COVID balance 00:02:35.285 --> 00:02:36.454 in terms of traffic. 00:02:37.055 --> 00:02:40.619 However, the flip side of that was at ad revenue 00:02:40.619 --> 00:02:41.970 rates went in the toilet. 00:02:41.970 --> 00:02:46.529 So I kind of made out not terrible, but I got 00:02:46.529 --> 00:02:50.040 this gigantic boost in people like looking for 00:02:50.100 --> 00:02:51.299 like, Hey, what do I do? 00:02:51.329 --> 00:02:52.649 How can I eat my lawn? 00:02:52.649 --> 00:02:54.239 Or how do I go hunting? 00:02:54.239 --> 00:02:56.459 Or how do I, you know, catch a fish to eat it? 00:02:56.459 --> 00:02:59.519 And then dah, dah, and then, but balanced off 00:02:59.519 --> 00:03:01.890 with the fact that, that, um, the revenue that 00:03:01.890 --> 00:03:04.380 was being brought in was pretty, pretty minimal. 00:03:04.859 --> 00:03:08.250 But you know, that's a minor concern 00:03:08.250 --> 00:03:10.230 given what we've just all been through. 00:03:10.230 --> 00:03:12.000 I mean, it's, I can't really complain. 00:03:12.850 --> 00:03:14.589 Why do you think it is an ad revenue would 00:03:14.600 --> 00:03:16.399 have dropped off, yet the demand went up? 00:03:16.969 --> 00:03:19.160 Uh, because everybody's was losing money. 00:03:19.250 --> 00:03:23.160 Um, The only people who didn't really take it 00:03:23.160 --> 00:03:26.220 in the shorts during the pandemic were essential 00:03:26.220 --> 00:03:29.940 services and things that are entirely online, but 00:03:30.269 --> 00:03:32.880 the biggest advertisers for a website like mine 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:35.040 are kind of national brands that revolve 00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:36.180 a lot around retail. 00:03:36.420 --> 00:03:40.140 So, um, I don't really run every individual ad. 00:03:40.140 --> 00:03:41.500 I just, I worked with an ad network. 00:03:41.999 --> 00:03:42.259 Got it. 00:03:42.259 --> 00:03:45.900 And the Ad network um, you know, this is what 00:03:45.900 --> 00:03:47.760 it was, you know, and fortunately things are 00:03:47.760 --> 00:03:50.400 kind of back to normal, which is weird, right? 00:03:50.430 --> 00:03:52.920 Because the United States went through 00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:56.190 this wretched, horrible COVID pandemic, right? 00:03:56.190 --> 00:03:58.200 Where everybody got it and homeless people 00:03:58.200 --> 00:04:00.870 died, but were actually vaccinating people. 00:04:01.200 --> 00:04:03.540 Whereas you Canadians, nobody got it, but 00:04:03.540 --> 00:04:05.030 nobody's getting vaccinated either. 00:04:05.480 --> 00:04:06.440 You got it. 00:04:07.340 --> 00:04:08.600 Don't get me started on that one. 00:04:10.490 --> 00:04:13.040 You know, despite the fact that I'm 00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:15.440 married to a chef who loves to garden and 00:04:15.440 --> 00:04:16.760 she loves the forage. 00:04:17.144 --> 00:04:19.214 I credit you with awakening the 00:04:19.214 --> 00:04:20.175 forger within. 00:04:20.535 --> 00:04:20.894 Oh. 00:04:20.894 --> 00:04:22.725 I had no idea. 00:04:22.725 --> 00:04:24.504 It wasn't even on my radar goin' pickin' 00:04:24.594 --> 00:04:27.344 mushrooms or looking for wild herbs and, it 00:04:27.344 --> 00:04:28.425 wasn't even on my radar. 00:04:28.635 --> 00:04:30.405 The very first time I ever actually picked 00:04:30.405 --> 00:04:31.455 mushrooms was with you. 00:04:31.455 --> 00:04:31.785 And that was. 00:04:31.785 --> 00:04:32.285 Really? 00:04:32.495 --> 00:04:33.795 Yeah, that was those porcinis. 00:04:33.795 --> 00:04:34.875 And man, I had a lot of fun. 00:04:35.195 --> 00:04:36.605 Well, I'm really glad that we actually found 00:04:36.605 --> 00:04:38.165 some, cause it's not always a guarantee. 00:04:38.645 --> 00:04:40.295 Oh, we found a crapload. 00:04:40.534 --> 00:04:41.034 I know. 00:04:41.345 --> 00:04:42.665 That was a pretty good day, that day. 00:04:43.235 --> 00:04:45.305 I remember, we get out of the vehicle, you're 00:04:45.575 --> 00:04:48.265 given a little, a little lesson, you said, so you 00:04:48.265 --> 00:04:49.585 look around and here's some of the areas you 00:04:49.585 --> 00:04:52.355 might find them and look for shrubs and we're 00:04:52.355 --> 00:04:53.885 literally just out of the vehicle and you 00:04:53.885 --> 00:04:54.575 just kick your boot. 00:04:54.575 --> 00:04:56.165 And you're like, Oh, like this one right here. 00:04:56.465 --> 00:04:59.165 Like, come on, this had to been planned. 00:04:59.945 --> 00:05:01.715 It wasn't, it was just a really good day. 00:05:01.715 --> 00:05:03.845 And I mean, you were you living in British 00:05:03.875 --> 00:05:05.345 Columbia, there's all kinds of really 00:05:05.345 --> 00:05:06.275 good mushrooms too. 00:05:06.905 --> 00:05:08.915 Well slowly, I've been getting into it. 00:05:08.975 --> 00:05:11.405 And I mean, my wife more so, and I just 00:05:11.405 --> 00:05:13.085 kind of follow her lead because she's doing all 00:05:13.085 --> 00:05:14.165 the research on it and. 00:05:14.705 --> 00:05:18.375 But learning that most of the mushrooms actually 00:05:18.375 --> 00:05:21.885 won't kill you and some will get you sick 00:05:21.885 --> 00:05:24.675 and take your time and identify that was a, that 00:05:24.675 --> 00:05:26.335 was a big one, but we. 00:05:26.335 --> 00:05:28.085 Yeah mushrooms are kind of an interesting one. 00:05:28.085 --> 00:05:30.155 They're like, uh, if you take a collection of 00:05:30.155 --> 00:05:33.575 anything, human beings, whatever, whatever you're 00:05:33.575 --> 00:05:36.575 going to find that like 2% will kill you dead. 00:05:37.565 --> 00:05:40.715 And 2% you would get on an airplane to go pick. 00:05:41.195 --> 00:05:41.525 Yeah. 00:05:41.525 --> 00:05:43.235 And then there's another percentage that like, 00:05:43.265 --> 00:05:45.575 Hey, you might go to the hospital and 00:05:45.575 --> 00:05:47.315 then there's another percentage that like, Oh, 00:05:47.345 --> 00:05:48.935 absolutely, if I see them totally picking them. 00:05:49.355 --> 00:05:50.975 Then there's another percentage of like, yeah, 00:05:50.975 --> 00:05:52.685 you're going to worship the porcelain God. 00:05:53.075 --> 00:05:54.455 And then on the other side, you're like, 00:05:54.515 --> 00:05:56.485 Oh, if I find him sure and I feel like it 00:05:56.485 --> 00:05:57.275 I'll, I'll pick them. 00:05:57.605 --> 00:06:00.275 And then there's this vast middle of blah. 00:06:00.755 --> 00:06:00.995 Right. 00:06:00.995 --> 00:06:02.825 You know, where there's just, they're neither 00:06:02.945 --> 00:06:04.205 edible nor not edible. 00:06:04.535 --> 00:06:05.045 Right. 00:06:06.125 --> 00:06:09.995 You know, I've been seeing on a Meat Eater, 00:06:09.995 --> 00:06:12.515 Rinella is really pushing the squirrel hunting. 00:06:13.200 --> 00:06:14.430 He is, interestingly. 00:06:14.820 --> 00:06:15.320 Yeah. 00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:18.210 And I was, I would never credit myself as 00:06:18.210 --> 00:06:21.390 a, a voracious squirrel hunter, but I've hunted 00:06:21.390 --> 00:06:24.660 squirrels and I've eaten squirrels, all up until 00:06:25.110 --> 00:06:27.690 that one day, when you said, what is that? 00:06:27.690 --> 00:06:30.150 Some very minute percentage of squirrels 00:06:30.150 --> 00:06:31.470 carry the bubonic plague. 00:06:31.830 --> 00:06:33.460 I haven't had a squirrel since then. 00:06:33.770 --> 00:06:35.060 That's ground squirrels, not. 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:36.160 Oh is that what it is? 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:36.790 Not tree squirrels. 00:06:37.460 --> 00:06:41.000 Yeah, so I mean, the, I don't know that 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.430 there has never been a tree squirrel with 00:06:43.430 --> 00:06:46.640 the plague, but, uh, what I'm referring to 00:06:46.640 --> 00:06:50.210 are groundhogs and, and ground squirrels, they 00:06:50.210 --> 00:06:52.340 have a much more, a much higher incidence of it. 00:06:52.760 --> 00:06:55.040 It's still a little overblown, like, you 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.790 know, it's, I don't know the actual percentage 00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:00.830 of danger that you would have if you 00:07:00.830 --> 00:07:03.220 ate prairie dogs or, or ground squirrels. 00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:09.465 Um, but I don't just because I, I prefer tree 00:07:09.465 --> 00:07:11.505 squirrels, which are much cleaner and safer to eat. 00:07:11.985 --> 00:07:12.344 Okay. 00:07:12.344 --> 00:07:13.065 So I went, hyper cautious. 00:07:13.065 --> 00:07:14.352 You have the western grey squirrel don't you? 00:07:14.452 --> 00:07:14.912 We do. 00:07:14.912 --> 00:07:15.412 Yeah. 00:07:15.485 --> 00:07:15.985 Yeah. 00:07:16.295 --> 00:07:17.075 Yeah. They're good eating. 00:07:17.475 --> 00:07:18.245 They're very good eating. 00:07:18.305 --> 00:07:21.065 Other than that fear, I guess now irrational 00:07:21.065 --> 00:07:23.195 fear, the possible bubonic plague in them. 00:07:23.195 --> 00:07:24.905 So it's ground squirrels, got it. 00:07:24.905 --> 00:07:25.844 Yep. Ground squirrels. 00:07:25.844 --> 00:07:27.094 So the ground has to have that kind 00:07:27.094 --> 00:07:27.905 of a rough on them. 00:07:27.905 --> 00:07:29.914 And then that you do find them in trees every 00:07:29.914 --> 00:07:31.265 now and again, but they were climbing up the 00:07:31.265 --> 00:07:34.575 trees from their holes and they look different. 00:07:34.965 --> 00:07:35.405 Right. 00:07:35.405 --> 00:07:37.115 You know, we get a lot of marmots up in a 00:07:37.115 --> 00:07:39.125 few of the areas that I like to go to um. 00:07:39.515 --> 00:07:40.655 I know people who eat marmots. 00:07:41.105 --> 00:07:41.555 Okay. 00:07:41.555 --> 00:07:43.055 Well, I guess squirrel's back on the menu, 00:07:43.055 --> 00:07:43.895 they better watch out. 00:07:45.365 --> 00:07:47.675 So you've got a background, like from 00:07:47.675 --> 00:07:49.865 a very early age, your mother got you 00:07:49.865 --> 00:07:53.765 into foraging and gardening, and then 00:07:53.765 --> 00:07:56.034 you got into fishing pretty early, wasn't it? 00:07:56.325 --> 00:08:00.094 Very early, very early, like before 00:08:00.094 --> 00:08:00.815 I can remember. 00:08:02.044 --> 00:08:05.330 So, there you are heavy background 00:08:05.340 --> 00:08:08.610 in foraging, heavy background in fishing. 00:08:09.150 --> 00:08:10.560 And you started hunting when in 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:11.940 your thirties or 32? 00:08:11.969 --> 00:08:12.289 Yeah. 00:08:12.289 --> 00:08:14.000 And, uh, when I was 32. 00:08:14.630 --> 00:08:15.130 Okay. 00:08:15.349 --> 00:08:17.390 And so God, that's 18 years ago now. 00:08:18.260 --> 00:08:21.409 Despite your background in foraging and fishing, 00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:27.230 you then go on to write basically for wild game 00:08:27.230 --> 00:08:29.120 hunting related books. 00:08:29.900 --> 00:08:33.620 And you're just now writing a book on fishing 00:08:33.650 --> 00:08:34.559 Hook, Line and Supper. 00:08:35.090 --> 00:08:35.390 Yep. 00:08:35.390 --> 00:08:37.580 How, how come you what made you decide to 00:08:37.580 --> 00:08:38.450 do it in that order? 00:08:39.090 --> 00:08:41.110 Primarily and I haven't written the fish, the 00:08:41.150 --> 00:08:42.230 foraging book yet either. 00:08:42.230 --> 00:08:46.670 So a lot of it has to do with familiarity. 00:08:46.970 --> 00:08:50.420 So I was a journalist for 18 years. 00:08:50.790 --> 00:08:54.660 So the job of a journalist is to learn 00:08:54.660 --> 00:08:56.970 a thing of your beat, whatever your beat is and 00:08:56.970 --> 00:08:59.640 learn it very, very well, and be able to relay 00:08:59.640 --> 00:09:03.210 what you lo and what you learn to your readers 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:04.830 clearly and fairly. 00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:07.290 And, and that's, that's, that's, that's 00:09:07.610 --> 00:09:09.030 in the essence is what journalism is all 00:09:09.030 --> 00:09:11.070 about, at least as a reporter, as opposed 00:09:11.070 --> 00:09:11.790 to a commentator. 00:09:12.750 --> 00:09:17.580 And so, given that I had already hunted for 00:09:17.580 --> 00:09:19.740 quite quite a while before I even started 00:09:19.740 --> 00:09:21.750 out put paper to, or put pen to paper. 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:26.160 But, uh, what I had found was that my 00:09:26.160 --> 00:09:27.810 first book does have fishing and foraging 00:09:27.810 --> 00:09:28.400 in it to be fair. 00:09:28.400 --> 00:09:28.900 It does. 00:09:29.170 --> 00:09:30.450 So it's, it's, it's, it's got a little 00:09:30.450 --> 00:09:31.080 bit of everything. 00:09:31.710 --> 00:09:35.190 So, but I decided to do deep dives into 00:09:35.220 --> 00:09:37.350 waterfowl with, with Duck, Duck, Goose, 00:09:37.800 --> 00:09:40.890 with, you know, the cervids and all things 00:09:40.890 --> 00:09:43.320 antlered and horned is Buck, Buck, Moose. 00:09:43.380 --> 00:09:45.720 And then with small game with Pheasant, Quail, 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.530 Cottontail, because I, uh, I find that. 00:09:50.010 --> 00:09:53.790 Since I've really more or less stopped eating 00:09:54.479 --> 00:09:57.030 domesticated meat with the exception of, um, 00:09:57.060 --> 00:09:58.319 I have a couple of friends who are very 00:09:58.319 --> 00:10:01.469 good hog farmers, so I got some, some really 00:10:01.469 --> 00:10:05.280 good farmed hogs, um, once or twice a year. 00:10:05.910 --> 00:10:07.890 Other than that, it pretty much everything 00:10:07.890 --> 00:10:09.930 in our house has been hunted or fished, in 00:10:09.930 --> 00:10:10.619 terms of the protein. 00:10:11.339 --> 00:10:16.290 So the daily, day by day, week by week, year 00:10:16.290 --> 00:10:20.790 by year exposure to game animals from all 00:10:20.790 --> 00:10:22.199 over the North America. 00:10:22.500 --> 00:10:25.680 And, you know, in every season you get a really 00:10:25.680 --> 00:10:26.790 good intimate knowledge. 00:10:27.180 --> 00:10:29.400 And I kind of already had that fish knowledge 00:10:29.459 --> 00:10:33.479 and I had the reason why I started with 00:10:33.479 --> 00:10:34.979 ducks because it's where, you know, you 00:10:34.979 --> 00:10:36.989 can see the Duck, Duck, Goose right there. 00:10:37.349 --> 00:10:41.520 Uh, and I started with that was because, um, 00:10:42.150 --> 00:10:44.489 here in California, we have unbelievable 00:10:44.489 --> 00:10:45.040 duck hunting. 00:10:45.930 --> 00:10:49.980 And so I had far more experience with that 00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:52.350 than I did with uplands when I wrote that book. 00:10:53.880 --> 00:10:56.280 And you know, I, I do it on every year and I 00:10:56.280 --> 00:10:58.260 hunt big game every year, but it's not like I'm, 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:00.870 I'm not like, you know, I got a friend named 00:11:00.870 --> 00:11:03.430 John Stallone and John Stallone, like lives 00:11:03.450 --> 00:11:04.350 for big game hunting. 00:11:04.380 --> 00:11:06.930 He hunts big game for months at a time. 00:11:06.930 --> 00:11:09.180 And I'll hunt big game until I get 00:11:09.180 --> 00:11:10.290 one or maybe two. 00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:11.520 And then I'm like, all right, good. 00:11:11.520 --> 00:11:12.360 Now I can go hunt birds. 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:16.470 And so it took a while for me to develop the 00:11:16.470 --> 00:11:19.170 institutional knowledge, to be able to write 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.560 a really quality cookbook about venison. 00:11:23.070 --> 00:11:25.350 So, so kind of a long way of coming around to 00:11:26.280 --> 00:11:28.170 those areas were popular. 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:29.790 Those areas were things that people 00:11:29.790 --> 00:11:30.960 wanted to read about. 00:11:31.290 --> 00:11:33.450 Those are also areas where there's 00:11:33.450 --> 00:11:35.415 a, a bigger need. 00:11:36.285 --> 00:11:38.265 So, especially with ducks, I mean, I think 00:11:38.265 --> 00:11:40.724 ducks are probably the, the game animal that 00:11:40.724 --> 00:11:43.064 is the most horribly destroyed in the kitchen 00:11:43.064 --> 00:11:45.435 of anything, with venison being a second thing. 00:11:45.435 --> 00:11:47.655 And then, then I think, I think a lot 00:11:47.655 --> 00:11:49.905 of people cook upland animals in a decent 00:11:49.905 --> 00:11:52.275 way, even without the help of someone like me. 00:11:53.025 --> 00:11:54.435 And then that's also kind of true with 00:11:54.435 --> 00:11:57.675 fish in the sense that pretty much everybody 00:11:57.675 --> 00:11:59.925 knows how to fry a piece of fish or maybe 00:11:59.925 --> 00:12:00.915 slap it on the grill. 00:12:01.125 --> 00:12:01.454 Sure. 00:12:01.454 --> 00:12:04.785 So to write a fish and seafood cookbook, a, 00:12:04.875 --> 00:12:09.824 um, since I've fished in like five Canadian 00:12:09.824 --> 00:12:13.545 provinces in 40 some odd States and you know, 00:12:13.545 --> 00:12:16.905 for the better part of 45 plus years, right. 00:12:18.045 --> 00:12:20.275 And I've eaten or cooked and catched, 00:12:20.655 --> 00:12:23.444 caught, eaten, or cooked like 500 species or 00:12:23.444 --> 00:12:24.194 something like that. 00:12:24.734 --> 00:12:28.245 Every time I would write a sentence, I'd be like, 00:12:28.245 --> 00:12:28.935 well, this is true. 00:12:29.265 --> 00:12:30.915 And then over here, my head would be like, 00:12:30.915 --> 00:12:32.535 well, but there's not other fish that lives in 00:12:32.535 --> 00:12:34.215 Louisiana that doesn't really act that way. 00:12:34.215 --> 00:12:37.215 So, so the, the problem with the, the eternal 00:12:37.215 --> 00:12:40.095 exceptions of the diversity of fish made 00:12:40.095 --> 00:12:41.085 it difficult to cook. 00:12:42.045 --> 00:12:43.785 The second thing that made it very difficult 00:12:43.785 --> 00:12:49.455 to cook is if or to, to write, is that for every 00:12:49.755 --> 00:12:52.365 time that I want to write about, say the Pacific 00:12:52.365 --> 00:12:56.295 Northwest fish, I have to be cognizant of the fact 00:12:56.295 --> 00:12:59.715 that, well, nobody wants a recipe for halibut. 00:13:00.705 --> 00:13:02.685 Nobody, because if you want a recipe 00:13:02.685 --> 00:13:04.275 for halibut, you live where halibut live. 00:13:04.275 --> 00:13:04.965 Well, guess what? 00:13:04.995 --> 00:13:06.585 Most people don't live where halibut live. 00:13:07.335 --> 00:13:10.605 So the recipe needs to be applicable to you, 00:13:11.145 --> 00:13:14.535 to me down, you know, 1500 miles South of 00:13:14.535 --> 00:13:16.785 you, in California, as well as somebody 00:13:16.785 --> 00:13:20.580 in Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Colorado. 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.130 So you had to think about fish in a 00:13:23.130 --> 00:13:24.180 very different way. 00:13:24.420 --> 00:13:26.820 You had to think about fishes in kind 00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:27.870 of a galactic sense. 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.470 Where you put them in broader buckets. 00:13:31.680 --> 00:13:35.760 Where you have, this is a lean white fish, this is 00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:37.830 a soft, lean white fish. 00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:40.230 This is a very firm one, this is a fatty fish. 00:13:40.260 --> 00:13:42.870 This is a fatty orange fish, like a salmon 00:13:42.870 --> 00:13:45.350 or a trout, or as Canadians say tr-oot. 00:13:45.810 --> 00:13:46.310 Um, 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:48.710 I don't know any Canadians that 00:13:48.710 --> 00:13:49.430 say that, but. 00:13:49.490 --> 00:13:49.970 I do. 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:54.710 There, they live in Alberta, my friend, 00:13:54.710 --> 00:13:56.170 Kevin Casajuan likes to say tr-oot. 00:13:56.730 --> 00:13:57.600 Tr-oot, tr-oot. 00:13:58.160 --> 00:13:59.570 And he has a hard time saying tr-out. 00:14:00.510 --> 00:14:01.220 Tr-out. 00:14:01.880 --> 00:14:02.300 Yeah. 00:14:02.300 --> 00:14:03.290 You do it better actually. 00:14:03.890 --> 00:14:04.390 Um. 00:14:04.790 --> 00:14:05.630 You know, we're a little closer to 00:14:05.630 --> 00:14:06.230 the border here. 00:14:06.350 --> 00:14:06.850 That's true. 00:14:06.980 --> 00:14:07.400 That's true. 00:14:07.400 --> 00:14:08.900 But I mean, that, that was the thing it's like, 00:14:08.900 --> 00:14:15.410 I wanted to write a book that is not only 00:14:15.410 --> 00:14:17.690 useful for everybody, fresh water or salt. 00:14:18.555 --> 00:14:21.615 But it also really gives you master recipes, 00:14:21.675 --> 00:14:27.315 um, fundamental skills on cooking any kind 00:14:27.315 --> 00:14:29.925 of fish or seafood that will then really 00:14:29.925 --> 00:14:31.005 free you from recipes. 00:14:31.035 --> 00:14:32.685 Like there are recipes, lots of recipes in the 00:14:32.685 --> 00:14:35.595 book, but, but the really sort of structured as if 00:14:35.595 --> 00:14:37.635 you want a beer batter fresh fish, this is how 00:14:37.635 --> 00:14:38.475 you beer batter fresh. 00:14:38.865 --> 00:14:40.245 But if you want to fry fish and like these 00:14:40.245 --> 00:14:42.105 seven other ways, I've got these seven other 00:14:42.105 --> 00:14:44.385 ways and they're all tested and they're all, 00:14:44.385 --> 00:14:45.465 they're all ironclad. 00:14:45.975 --> 00:14:48.585 And then what if you want to poach fish or 00:14:48.615 --> 00:14:51.975 grill or cure, I've got a big section on salting, 00:14:51.975 --> 00:14:54.615 smoking and curing because people have been 00:14:54.615 --> 00:14:57.435 doing that with fish and seafood for as long 00:14:57.435 --> 00:14:58.875 as we've been catching fish and seafood. 00:14:59.225 --> 00:14:59.495 Totally. 00:14:59.495 --> 00:15:01.575 Because if you catch things by the ocean, 00:15:01.575 --> 00:15:02.325 you live near salt. 00:15:02.765 --> 00:15:03.455 That's right. 00:15:04.715 --> 00:15:07.145 You know, I, I think that's part of the 00:15:07.325 --> 00:15:11.255 appeal behind the whole Hank Shaw brand 00:15:11.255 --> 00:15:15.065 and HonestFood.net is the fact that you. 00:15:15.900 --> 00:15:18.420 You look at the whole process and you look 00:15:18.420 --> 00:15:20.160 at things differently. 00:15:20.189 --> 00:15:21.600 You're kind of, you know, you're, you're 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:23.550 kind of a counter culture kind of guy. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.610 Even your website, you got a .net website, 00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:29.730 not a .com or you got a .net website. 00:15:30.150 --> 00:15:32.550 But, but you look at when your contemporaries are 00:15:32.550 --> 00:15:35.880 out there and chasing big game and posting big, 00:15:36.689 --> 00:15:39.569 big game pictures and big flashy expeditions. 00:15:39.569 --> 00:15:41.640 You're talking about pheasants, quails, 00:15:41.640 --> 00:15:44.550 and cottontails, and how to basically eat 00:15:44.550 --> 00:15:46.410 stuff that grows out of your sidewalk. 00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:52.199 And you do that in, from a chef's perspective. 00:15:52.230 --> 00:15:56.025 I mean, you've, you've got your, uh, James 00:15:56.025 --> 00:15:58.439 Beard award winner for your website. 00:15:58.510 --> 00:16:00.810 That's a pretty big deal in the, uh, in 00:16:00.810 --> 00:16:01.470 the cooking world. 00:16:02.564 --> 00:16:03.645 There you go right in the back. 00:16:04.455 --> 00:16:04.965 Oh yeah. 00:16:04.965 --> 00:16:06.885 You got it up there, I love it. 00:16:07.245 --> 00:16:07.775 Man, yeah. 00:16:07.775 --> 00:16:09.665 If I had something like that, I'd be flying it 00:16:09.665 --> 00:16:10.655 loud and proud for sure. 00:16:10.655 --> 00:16:13.235 That's, that's kind of, kind of like the Oscars 00:16:13.235 --> 00:16:15.095 for, for chefs, isn't it? 00:16:15.515 --> 00:16:16.145 It is. 00:16:16.265 --> 00:16:16.805 It is. 00:16:16.865 --> 00:16:19.055 Um, and, uh, very lucky and very, very 00:16:19.055 --> 00:16:20.045 proud of to get it. 00:16:20.824 --> 00:16:23.525 You were nominated what, in 2009, you're 00:16:23.525 --> 00:16:27.605 nominated again in 2010 and in 2013 you got it. 00:16:28.085 --> 00:16:28.805 That's massive. 00:16:28.965 --> 00:16:30.635 It's even cool to be nominated because 00:16:30.635 --> 00:16:31.955 in you're still on the podium right. 00:16:31.955 --> 00:16:33.185 Cause they only nominate three. 00:16:34.535 --> 00:16:35.405 Only three? 00:16:35.855 --> 00:16:36.335 Yeah. 00:16:36.335 --> 00:16:37.745 For any given category. 00:16:37.865 --> 00:16:38.105 Right. 00:16:38.105 --> 00:16:39.785 So in any given category, there's going 00:16:39.785 --> 00:16:40.835 to be three finalists. 00:16:40.895 --> 00:16:43.295 And so even just to be nominated is a big deal. 00:16:43.865 --> 00:16:44.405 Wow. 00:16:44.939 --> 00:16:47.430 So we were actually supposed to do this 00:16:47.430 --> 00:16:50.550 podcast on Wednesday tentatively, but 00:16:50.550 --> 00:16:53.340 you have Spanish classes on Wednesday. 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:54.680 Not this time. 00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:56.480 Uh, this time I'm, I can't do it on 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:57.740 Wednesday cause I'm Turkey hunting because 00:16:57.740 --> 00:16:58.230 our Turkey hunting. 00:16:58.230 --> 00:16:58.780 Ahh, good for you! 00:16:58.780 --> 00:16:59.920 Season has started, uh. 00:16:59.920 --> 00:17:00.480 Good for you. 00:17:00.530 --> 00:17:01.050 Well you've got a lot of. 00:17:01.050 --> 00:17:02.420 Spanish, I think I have a week off of 00:17:02.420 --> 00:17:03.170 my Spanish, but. 00:17:03.170 --> 00:17:04.819 Well you've got some pretty good Turkey 00:17:04.819 --> 00:17:05.839 hunting around where you are. 00:17:06.230 --> 00:17:06.670 We do. 00:17:06.670 --> 00:17:08.240 They're all, they're all Rio's except for 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:10.310 the far North of the state on your Oregon 00:17:10.310 --> 00:17:12.109 where there's some Merriam's, but mostly 00:17:12.109 --> 00:17:15.589 they're the Rio Grande turkeys, which, um, it 00:17:15.589 --> 00:17:17.450 would be unfair to say that they're the short 00:17:17.450 --> 00:17:21.200 bus Turkey, but they are significantly easier 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:22.910 to hunt than Easterns. 00:17:22.940 --> 00:17:25.040 Easterns are notoriously the hardest. 00:17:25.190 --> 00:17:27.530 So you'd see that in Ontario and then in 00:17:27.530 --> 00:17:28.339 the American East. 00:17:29.060 --> 00:17:29.560 Right. 00:17:30.470 --> 00:17:35.450 So the Spanish lessons, there's a, I've seen 00:17:35.450 --> 00:17:38.389 the big shift in how you cook over the years and 00:17:38.389 --> 00:17:40.820 you're, you're getting a lot more of a Spanish 00:17:41.030 --> 00:17:43.850 and Mexican flavor to a lot of the things 00:17:43.850 --> 00:17:44.450 you're doing right. 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:46.650 Are you just doing the Spanish lessons 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.950 primarily to get a better feel for the cooking? 00:17:50.100 --> 00:17:51.510 Or is there something more in there? 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.050 It's yes and no. 00:17:54.290 --> 00:17:57.380 So, uh, I've been fascinated by Mexican 00:17:57.380 --> 00:18:00.020 cooking, in specific in Latin American cooking in 00:18:00.020 --> 00:18:01.460 general for quite awhile. 00:18:02.750 --> 00:18:04.970 And the thing about Mexican cooking, 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.620 there's two, there's two, two main things. 00:18:06.620 --> 00:18:09.020 One is proximity, like it's our other neighbor. 00:18:09.110 --> 00:18:10.850 There's three main countries in North 00:18:10.850 --> 00:18:13.120 America and, and yours is one, mine is the other 00:18:13.120 --> 00:18:13.940 and Mexico is the third. 00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:19.220 And, and so proximity matters, but what 00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:22.520 really, really cemented it was the fact that, 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:31.730 in my opinion, a great world cuisine has to be 00:18:31.970 --> 00:18:35.060 underpinned by a great world civilization. 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:38.870 So the reason why that is the case is 00:18:38.870 --> 00:18:41.240 because you have to have had centuries, or 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:45.389 if not, millennia of a ruling classthat can 00:18:45.389 --> 00:18:47.070 just sit around and have somebody cook for 00:18:47.070 --> 00:18:48.209 them in fancy ways. 00:18:48.510 --> 00:18:51.290 And that's sort of the underpinning and it 00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:53.250 sounds weird and elitist, but it's true if you 00:18:53.250 --> 00:18:55.470 think about it, like, is there a really good food 00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:58.080 in, oh, I don't know. 00:18:58.110 --> 00:18:59.220 Kenya, for example. 00:18:59.280 --> 00:18:59.639 Sure. 00:18:59.639 --> 00:19:00.090 Yeah. 00:19:00.090 --> 00:19:01.980 There's really good food in Kenya, but 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:04.169 there was never any big, giant civilization. 00:19:04.169 --> 00:19:06.240 Like there was an Egypt or in Zimbabwe, 00:19:06.330 --> 00:19:07.949 um, or in Ghana. 00:19:08.459 --> 00:19:11.159 So, you know, it's just use African examples. 00:19:11.879 --> 00:19:14.820 And in Mexico you have to, you've got the 00:19:14.820 --> 00:19:17.879 Maya and the Aztecs, not to mention there's 00:19:18.060 --> 00:19:19.770 a couple other groups that, that are a little 00:19:19.770 --> 00:19:22.709 bit lesser known, but you've got these major 00:19:22.709 --> 00:19:26.550 long lived sophisticated civilizations that 00:19:26.550 --> 00:19:27.659 underpin their food. 00:19:28.560 --> 00:19:32.250 And so that connected with the ingredients 00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:33.179 that they have available. 00:19:33.419 --> 00:19:37.860 So the area that is now Mexico, has 00:19:37.860 --> 00:19:41.169 everything from the origin of chilies, the 00:19:41.169 --> 00:19:42.780 origin of tomatoes. 00:19:43.260 --> 00:19:46.500 Um, and they also had to some extent potatoes, 00:19:46.500 --> 00:19:48.060 although those were mostly from the Andes, 00:19:48.780 --> 00:19:50.940 uh, not to mention lots and lots and lots of 00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:53.580 other ingredients that we use on a daily basis, 00:19:54.330 --> 00:19:56.220 you know, corn, beans and squash, for example. 00:19:56.250 --> 00:19:58.110 Corn, beans and squash as we know them 00:19:58.410 --> 00:20:00.150 originated in Mexico. 00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:02.990 Now they were widely used all the way up to, 00:20:02.990 --> 00:20:06.120 to Southern Canada when white people showed up. 00:20:06.870 --> 00:20:11.160 Um, but they filtered North from Mesoamerica. 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:13.200 So you have these amazing ingredients. 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.020 You have these amazing techniques in the 00:20:15.020 --> 00:20:17.690 civilizations that underpin it, and then 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:18.379 they're our neighbour. 00:20:19.230 --> 00:20:21.960 So I got very, very interested in it, 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:23.580 uh, some years ago. 00:20:23.610 --> 00:20:27.720 And then I very quickly realized that if you only 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:31.710 speak English, it is like seeing just a shadow of 00:20:31.710 --> 00:20:36.870 the real cuisine, because while there is a fairly 00:20:36.870 --> 00:20:40.290 large number of Mexican cookbooks written in 00:20:40.290 --> 00:20:41.220 the English language. 00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:46.410 There are an order of magnitude more cookbooks 00:20:46.470 --> 00:20:47.580 written in Spanish. 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:50.520 And until, and unless you can read Spanish 00:20:50.550 --> 00:20:54.330 and speak Spanish and really understand Mexico, 00:20:54.780 --> 00:20:57.060 you know, like actual Mexicans, like it's 00:20:57.060 --> 00:20:58.740 not just food ladies and gentlemen, it's the 00:20:58.740 --> 00:20:59.850 human beings who make it. 00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:00.630 Right. 00:21:00.630 --> 00:21:07.080 And you cannot really, um, grok to use a 00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:10.260 California term, the, the, the cuisine 00:21:10.260 --> 00:21:12.120 or the people or whatever, unless you 00:21:12.120 --> 00:21:12.840 speak their language. 00:21:13.350 --> 00:21:15.330 So that's a prerequisite. 00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:17.850 And when I was in high school, I took two 00:21:17.850 --> 00:21:20.070 years of Italian and three years of Latin. 00:21:21.060 --> 00:21:23.370 So those are really good underpinnings 00:21:23.370 --> 00:21:24.360 for learning Spanish. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:29.865 And, and so the goal eventually, one of 00:21:29.865 --> 00:21:31.665 my best friends, uh, is from Monterey. 00:21:32.324 --> 00:21:34.844 Uh, in Nuevo Leon and he lives here in California 00:21:34.844 --> 00:21:36.585 and runs a restaurant called Nixtaco. 00:21:37.064 --> 00:21:39.975 And so Patricio and I, our goal is to write a 00:21:39.975 --> 00:21:41.145 Mexican cookbook someday. 00:21:41.415 --> 00:21:47.594 And I refuse to be the gringo who's standing 00:21:47.594 --> 00:21:50.145 there unable to answer questions in Spanish. 00:21:50.175 --> 00:21:52.574 And cause you, you do see this, you see 00:21:52.574 --> 00:21:56.205 this where there are American or Canadian 00:21:56.235 --> 00:21:58.995 or other or chefs of any other country that 00:21:58.995 --> 00:22:00.794 don't speak X language. 00:22:00.794 --> 00:22:03.254 And don't, don't really, they just kind of 00:22:03.254 --> 00:22:04.725 parachute into a culture. 00:22:04.725 --> 00:22:06.915 And then, and then cherry pick things 00:22:06.915 --> 00:22:08.715 from it without really fully understanding 00:22:08.715 --> 00:22:09.405 the whole culture. 00:22:09.855 --> 00:22:10.844 And I don't want to be that guy. 00:22:11.175 --> 00:22:16.020 Like, uh, I want to be the guy who's like, Oh 00:22:16.020 --> 00:22:16.919 yeah, that's really good. 00:22:17.340 --> 00:22:19.020 Even if you don't like the fact that I'm a 00:22:19.020 --> 00:22:22.620 wedo um, you have to, I want to be that guy. 00:22:22.620 --> 00:22:23.669 They're like, yeah, you got to give the devil 00:22:23.669 --> 00:22:24.510 his due, you know. 00:22:25.439 --> 00:22:26.189 That's fantastic. 00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:29.429 And I hope people will, will see our book, which 00:22:29.429 --> 00:22:30.360 is years in the future. 00:22:31.709 --> 00:22:33.449 I hope they will see our book whenever it 00:22:33.449 --> 00:22:35.969 comes out as a positive thing and adding to 00:22:35.969 --> 00:22:37.350 the overall knowledge. 00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:39.570 And here's the thing, like if it does well, 00:22:40.020 --> 00:22:41.639 shit, we're going to print in Spanish too. 00:22:42.439 --> 00:22:44.510 That's pretty damn cool actually. 00:22:44.780 --> 00:22:46.429 Have you already started kind of pre-writing it in 00:22:46.429 --> 00:22:47.209 your head or do you have? 00:22:47.239 --> 00:22:48.250 Yeah, yeah, it has. 00:22:48.330 --> 00:22:50.419 It has, uh, it has, we have some structure 00:22:50.419 --> 00:22:51.919 for it, but it's, like I said, it's, 00:22:51.919 --> 00:22:52.969 it's a few years off. 00:22:53.389 --> 00:22:54.260 Years in the making. 00:22:54.560 --> 00:22:54.780 Yeah. 00:22:54.780 --> 00:22:56.629 I don't know if I can get behind your, uh, 00:22:56.689 --> 00:23:00.090 your love of Gwar but I did hear you rockin' 00:23:00.110 --> 00:23:02.889 out to some Control Machete, and, uh, I 00:23:02.899 --> 00:23:03.739 can get behind that. 00:23:04.129 --> 00:23:05.876 Control Machete, they're from Monterey. 00:23:06.590 --> 00:23:07.090 Are they? 00:23:07.189 --> 00:23:07.839 I didn't know that. 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.530 It's interestingly, like a lot of the music, 00:23:09.560 --> 00:23:11.030 a lot of the Mexican music, I like a lot 00:23:11.570 --> 00:23:12.530 is from that city. 00:23:12.530 --> 00:23:13.350 Yeah, that's interesting. 00:23:13.370 --> 00:23:15.060 Like Kinky, Kinky from that city. 00:23:15.110 --> 00:23:17.370 And El Gran Silencio from that city. 00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:21.780 Um, yeah, there's a Jonas in Plastilina Mosh. 00:23:22.270 --> 00:23:23.850 Plastilina Mosh you may know, because there 00:23:23.850 --> 00:23:25.710 was, it had one hit that really made it 00:23:25.710 --> 00:23:28.720 into English speaking world was Mr PMOSH. 00:23:29.580 --> 00:23:30.080 Mr. 00:23:30.100 --> 00:23:34.230 P M O S H. 00:23:34.410 --> 00:23:37.890 And it was about 20 years ago, but it was, it got 00:23:37.890 --> 00:23:39.270 major radio play, at least in this country. 00:23:39.710 --> 00:23:40.190 Did it? 00:23:40.190 --> 00:23:42.260 I may have missed that one, but yeah, 00:23:42.290 --> 00:23:44.990 no si señor I always had that on my list 00:23:44.990 --> 00:23:47.330 of, uh, of songs if I ever made a movie. 00:23:47.330 --> 00:23:49.100 And there's some Latino gangsters kind of 00:23:49.100 --> 00:23:51.650 cruising through that's what would be playing 00:23:51.650 --> 00:23:52.370 in the background. 00:23:52.520 --> 00:23:53.020 Oh yeah. 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:55.220 Well, they were of course heavily influenced by, 00:23:55.220 --> 00:23:56.300 um, by a Cypress Hill. 00:23:57.045 --> 00:23:57.585 That's right. 00:23:57.645 --> 00:23:58.145 Yeah. 00:23:58.605 --> 00:24:01.515 Now I remember reading one time, there was a 00:24:01.515 --> 00:24:03.745 quote that you had there and it was, uh, I'll, 00:24:03.745 --> 00:24:04.545 I'll read the quote. 00:24:04.545 --> 00:24:06.825 It says, I, I think it's just because 00:24:06.825 --> 00:24:09.375 Americans fear food, plain and simple. 00:24:09.405 --> 00:24:11.325 We're probably the niche in that is the 00:24:11.325 --> 00:24:13.845 most scared of our food supply because it's 00:24:13.845 --> 00:24:14.895 failed us at times. 00:24:17.595 --> 00:24:22.245 And I, and that was in regards to people's fear 00:24:22.245 --> 00:24:26.365 of getting foraging is it and getting wild game? 00:24:26.365 --> 00:24:30.555 And what, what was the, uh, uh, the 00:24:30.555 --> 00:24:32.235 impetus behind that one, because I just saw 00:24:32.235 --> 00:24:33.855 that one cut and paste it out and I thought, 00:24:34.065 --> 00:24:35.565 yeah, that's kind of an interesting one. 00:24:36.425 --> 00:24:38.945 I think it is really more of a reference to 00:24:39.245 --> 00:24:40.895 the general food supply. 00:24:41.255 --> 00:24:45.185 So, and that of course bleeds into the wild 00:24:45.185 --> 00:24:48.155 world as well because they, the thought the, 00:24:48.155 --> 00:24:49.565 you know, the general thought, I think this is, 00:24:49.805 --> 00:24:54.495 this is true in Canada, too, where, Oh God, you 00:24:54.495 --> 00:24:58.510 know, what if my burger's got e-coli or what if my, 00:24:58.510 --> 00:25:02.220 my lettuce has listeria and dah dah dah, in, in 00:25:02.220 --> 00:25:06.630 the thought process with that is, well, if that's 00:25:06.630 --> 00:25:10.460 the case in a regulated, farmed food environment, 00:25:10.970 --> 00:25:13.550 how much worse must the wild environment be? 00:25:13.790 --> 00:25:14.910 So that's the thought process. 00:25:15.210 --> 00:25:15.470 Ahh. 00:25:15.470 --> 00:25:17.750 So, and the other, the approximate thing 00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:19.670 is every time I take somebody on a, on a 00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:20.660 edible plant walk. 00:25:21.110 --> 00:25:22.100 Oh yeah, that's edible. 00:25:22.310 --> 00:25:24.410 That's edible a hundred percent. 00:25:24.710 --> 00:25:27.440 I could, I could eat at the French laundry 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.140 as much as I want, if I had a dollar for every 00:25:30.140 --> 00:25:30.980 time, I've heard this. 00:25:31.695 --> 00:25:32.745 What if a dog peed on it? 00:25:36.075 --> 00:25:37.245 Well, don't you have a sink? 00:25:37.665 --> 00:25:38.165 Yeah. 00:25:38.595 --> 00:25:39.435 You can wash it off. 00:25:39.465 --> 00:25:41.745 Number one, or maybe don't pick from the 00:25:41.745 --> 00:25:43.364 section on the side of the sidewalk that's at 00:25:43.365 --> 00:25:44.415 dog pee level, right? 00:25:44.415 --> 00:25:45.825 Just go back a little bit. 00:25:45.845 --> 00:25:48.305 Hey, it's strangely yellowed and burnt. 00:25:48.335 --> 00:25:49.925 Like let's, let's pick that one, you know? 00:25:50.615 --> 00:25:51.515 Oh my god. 00:25:52.445 --> 00:25:55.865 That's the thing like mushroom poisoning, 50%, 00:25:56.195 --> 00:25:58.205 give or take, the stats are roughly that, but 00:25:58.205 --> 00:25:59.195 it's not an exact stat. 00:25:59.735 --> 00:26:04.025 Roughly half of all mushroom poisonings 00:26:04.715 --> 00:26:06.845 are caused by people having panic attacks 00:26:07.605 --> 00:26:11.175 from eating perfectly edible mushrooms or 00:26:11.985 --> 00:26:13.754 eating perfectly edible mushrooms that are 00:26:13.754 --> 00:26:16.375 like rotten or moldy or something like that. 00:26:16.375 --> 00:26:17.085 Ahh. Yup. 00:26:17.085 --> 00:26:18.555 So like they're not actually eating 00:26:18.555 --> 00:26:19.514 a toxic mushroom. 00:26:19.815 --> 00:26:22.365 They're either eating a rotten edible mushroom, 00:26:22.605 --> 00:26:24.215 or they're just freezing because they don't 00:26:24.215 --> 00:26:24.965 trust themselves. 00:26:25.415 --> 00:26:26.284 Interesting. 00:26:26.524 --> 00:26:28.685 50% of the time, it works every time. 00:26:29.014 --> 00:26:30.305 Roughly, roughly about that. 00:26:31.805 --> 00:26:34.835 Do you find as you're through your writing 00:26:34.835 --> 00:26:38.095 and through your website and your books, and do 00:26:38.095 --> 00:26:40.715 you find that you're seeing more people out 00:26:40.835 --> 00:26:43.355 in the places that you would typically go to? 00:26:43.415 --> 00:26:46.835 Like, are you kind of creating your own 00:26:46.835 --> 00:26:47.915 competition out there? 00:26:48.605 --> 00:26:49.415 I think that's true. 00:26:49.415 --> 00:26:51.635 I, I, I think I'm not the only person doing 00:26:51.635 --> 00:26:53.675 it, but, um, I've been doing this publicly 00:26:53.675 --> 00:26:54.665 for quite a long time. 00:26:55.325 --> 00:26:57.845 So, uh, it is why I don't do many 00:26:57.845 --> 00:26:58.685 plant walks anymore. 00:26:59.495 --> 00:27:01.205 And if I do do them, I do them in public 00:27:01.205 --> 00:27:02.855 places where it's illegal to pick. 00:27:03.305 --> 00:27:03.810 Ahh yeah. 00:27:03.840 --> 00:27:05.310 So that if you want to go back there and 00:27:05.310 --> 00:27:07.050 pick up this illegal spot, that's on you. 00:27:07.590 --> 00:27:10.410 Um, years ago, like where I took you. 00:27:10.590 --> 00:27:10.760 Yeah. 00:27:10.760 --> 00:27:12.330 That's a spot that you could go back, 00:27:12.330 --> 00:27:14.430 you could go back and you could pick at it. 00:27:14.550 --> 00:27:17.280 Now I trusted you because you're a Canadian and 00:27:17.280 --> 00:27:18.630 we'll not only because Canadians are generally 00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:19.320 trustworthy, but. 00:27:20.120 --> 00:27:21.380 Difficult access. 00:27:21.560 --> 00:27:22.100 Yes. 00:27:22.130 --> 00:27:23.210 Difficult access. 00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:24.950 So, yeah. 00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:27.140 Like I would take people in and we would actually 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:30.980 go to a place where we could gather and about 00:27:30.980 --> 00:27:34.670 90% were good people and would respect my spots, 00:27:34.760 --> 00:27:35.900 but that leaves 10%. 00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:38.150 And when you're dealing with, you know, maybe a 00:27:38.150 --> 00:27:41.960 hundred people over the course of the year, then 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:43.610 that means 10 people are stealing your spots. 00:27:43.610 --> 00:27:44.750 And then that can kill a spot. 00:27:45.250 --> 00:27:45.750 Totally. 00:27:45.770 --> 00:27:47.240 And they tell their friends or friends 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:48.410 tell friends, and then. 00:27:49.210 --> 00:27:49.910 That's the thing. 00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:51.530 That's like, people don't get that. 00:27:51.530 --> 00:27:52.580 So here's, here's etiquette. 00:27:52.580 --> 00:27:55.460 Like if you're listening to this outside here, 00:27:55.460 --> 00:27:57.350 this is, this is, this is true to knowledge 00:27:57.350 --> 00:27:57.950 I'm dropping on you. 00:27:58.820 --> 00:28:03.554 If either of us or anybody takes you to 00:28:03.584 --> 00:28:08.354 one of our spots, it is for you and you only. 00:28:09.435 --> 00:28:14.475 So if I take you to my mushroom spot and you 00:28:14.475 --> 00:28:16.754 want to return to that mushroom spot, you need 00:28:16.754 --> 00:28:21.014 to ask me if you can return to my spot and 00:28:21.014 --> 00:28:24.314 you don't bring other people, unless you have. 00:28:25.725 --> 00:28:26.925 100%. 00:28:27.495 --> 00:28:29.625 Trust in that other person that, that other 00:28:29.625 --> 00:28:31.905 person is never going to, to burn your spot, 00:28:32.385 --> 00:28:34.754 which is very difficult to do because there's 00:28:34.754 --> 00:28:35.594 even good friends. 00:28:35.594 --> 00:28:37.584 Who'd be like, Oh no, oh yeah. 00:28:37.665 --> 00:28:39.794 I posted it on Instagram with a geo tag. 00:28:39.915 --> 00:28:41.024 You're like rubber hose now. 00:28:41.675 --> 00:28:45.034 Yeah, no, I get behind that 100%. 00:28:45.215 --> 00:28:47.945 You know, we, we caught some heat, you 00:28:47.945 --> 00:28:48.784 know, April Vokey. 00:28:49.054 --> 00:28:50.584 Uh, you've podcast with her. 00:28:50.584 --> 00:28:52.415 Actually I was on her podcast in April and 00:28:52.415 --> 00:28:56.959 I are going to do our first virtual book event, 00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:58.280 uh, in May together. 00:28:58.280 --> 00:28:59.270 That is so sweet. 00:28:59.389 --> 00:29:00.350 That is so cool. 00:29:01.040 --> 00:29:04.990 So, uh, when she was with MeatEater, we did a video 00:29:05.790 --> 00:29:09.020 doing some crabbing and just handpicking crabs. 00:29:09.889 --> 00:29:11.899 And although we didn't give any locations and 00:29:11.959 --> 00:29:14.419 we're very careful about making sure it was just 00:29:14.419 --> 00:29:16.040 like views of the water. 00:29:16.189 --> 00:29:18.020 Man we caught some heat from people who 00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:20.030 were local in the area and they could 00:29:20.030 --> 00:29:21.050 kind of pick it out. 00:29:21.050 --> 00:29:23.360 And it's, it's something that has to be taken 00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:24.620 very, very seriously. 00:29:24.649 --> 00:29:25.879 You don't want these to get these spots 00:29:25.879 --> 00:29:26.659 kind of burned out. 00:29:26.870 --> 00:29:27.370 Yup. 00:29:27.389 --> 00:29:28.199 At least, at least. 00:29:28.199 --> 00:29:30.709 So with crabs, they, they move like I've had my 00:29:30.709 --> 00:29:32.959 clam spots just raped. 00:29:33.320 --> 00:29:34.129 It was the worst. 00:29:34.189 --> 00:29:34.790 It was the worst. 00:29:34.790 --> 00:29:36.949 Like I went there, it was, it was money. 00:29:36.980 --> 00:29:38.720 Like you, you, you would get your limit of clams. 00:29:38.780 --> 00:29:39.350 Absolutely. 00:29:39.530 --> 00:29:41.600 And then I, I took a few people there 00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:42.260 and it was gone. 00:29:43.730 --> 00:29:44.780 Yeah. It's gotta be tough. 00:29:44.899 --> 00:29:47.300 I guess that's part and parcel with getting the 00:29:47.300 --> 00:29:49.550 information out there, even if you're not giving 00:29:49.550 --> 00:29:52.260 them your secret spots or locations away, you 00:29:52.260 --> 00:29:54.000 are encouraging people to get out there and 00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:55.140 search for themselves. 00:29:55.520 --> 00:29:56.300 I don't mind that. 00:29:56.300 --> 00:29:59.000 I mean, uh there's uh, again, if you 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.710 want to swing back to MeatEater, uh, very 00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:04.730 recently, uh, Steve Rinella's brother said 00:30:04.730 --> 00:30:06.530 something to the effect of like, well, I don't 00:30:06.530 --> 00:30:08.270 know that we want more, to be recruiting more 00:30:08.270 --> 00:30:10.860 hunters, which caught a lot of flack actually. 00:30:11.110 --> 00:30:12.060 Mhmm, I saw that. 00:30:12.060 --> 00:30:12.920 And they did a retraction. 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:13.520 I can't remember. 00:30:13.550 --> 00:30:16.310 But anyway, um, there is that theory 00:30:16.310 --> 00:30:16.880 out there though. 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.430 There's a lot of people who are established who, 00:30:19.430 --> 00:30:21.740 and you see this nimbyism with, with all things 00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:22.580 in human experience. 00:30:22.580 --> 00:30:23.900 It's like, I got mine, I'm going to 00:30:23.900 --> 00:30:24.740 shut the door by me. 00:30:25.520 --> 00:30:27.080 I just don't think that's very fair. 00:30:27.320 --> 00:30:30.170 It's just not very fair for, for anybody, 00:30:31.130 --> 00:30:32.690 especially if what you're doing is you're 00:30:32.690 --> 00:30:35.420 teaching them how, you're basically teaching them 00:30:35.420 --> 00:30:36.530 how to learn themselves. 00:30:36.560 --> 00:30:40.130 So I don't necessarily, this is why I will take 00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:42.650 somebody to, or, or talk to somebody about a 00:30:42.650 --> 00:30:45.740 public area where maybe isn't legal to hunt or 00:30:45.740 --> 00:30:48.500 fish or whatever, but I'm going to show you 00:30:48.500 --> 00:30:49.340 what it looks like. 00:30:50.085 --> 00:30:51.885 Like, if you see this habitat, if you see this 00:30:51.885 --> 00:30:54.014 kind of rock structure, if you see this kind of, 00:30:54.435 --> 00:30:59.405 of, you know, area in the marsh, it's, that's 00:30:59.415 --> 00:31:01.455 kind of what you're looking for and yeah, it 00:31:01.455 --> 00:31:02.504 does it get them close? 00:31:02.535 --> 00:31:03.375 It sure does. 00:31:03.375 --> 00:31:05.145 And it helps them be successful on their 00:31:05.205 --> 00:31:07.695 own so they can find their own spots. 00:31:07.785 --> 00:31:10.514 And yes, of course, there's a great example. 00:31:10.545 --> 00:31:12.855 Um, I didn't take you there, but, 00:31:12.885 --> 00:31:14.655 uh, on the coast of California, there's, 00:31:14.655 --> 00:31:15.885 everyone's secret spot. 00:31:15.915 --> 00:31:17.295 I'm going to say it because it's, it's 00:31:17.295 --> 00:31:17.955 just hilarious. 00:31:18.435 --> 00:31:21.555 So, uh, over the last 10, 15 years I have had 00:31:21.555 --> 00:31:25.085 people, hey man, you know, like the secret 00:31:25.085 --> 00:31:28.215 spot it's Mount Vision Road in Point Reyes 00:31:28.215 --> 00:31:29.315 National Seashore. 00:31:30.725 --> 00:31:34.025 I have heard that a dozen times from different 00:31:34.025 --> 00:31:35.375 people, who don't know each other, that that's 00:31:35.375 --> 00:31:36.125 their secret spot. 00:31:36.155 --> 00:31:38.764 Like dude, really like everybody, the planet is 00:31:38.764 --> 00:31:41.315 at that particular place at that at a particular 00:31:41.315 --> 00:31:42.635 time as porcini on it. 00:31:42.965 --> 00:31:43.254 Right. 00:31:43.254 --> 00:31:46.275 But in you know, it's, it's not a secret. 00:31:46.455 --> 00:31:48.915 So, so that kind of stuff, like at least it 00:31:48.915 --> 00:31:50.685 gets them to like, that's what it should look like. 00:31:51.045 --> 00:31:52.275 And, and I'll be honest. 00:31:52.275 --> 00:31:53.895 I mean, I don't, you know, yeah there's more, 00:31:54.525 --> 00:31:56.595 there's more pressure here and there, but 00:31:56.595 --> 00:31:59.055 I don't think it's that bad, you know? 00:31:59.055 --> 00:32:00.795 And if, and if it does get that bad, people 00:32:00.795 --> 00:32:02.865 are doing something positive, like I'd rather 00:32:02.865 --> 00:32:03.975 that than, you know. 00:32:04.185 --> 00:32:04.685 Yeah. 00:32:05.195 --> 00:32:06.735 You know, there's a million things that they 00:32:06.735 --> 00:32:09.765 could be doing that is more harmful to not only 00:32:09.765 --> 00:32:12.615 the environment, but to, to my experience 00:32:12.825 --> 00:32:13.635 doing my thing. 00:32:14.675 --> 00:32:17.165 Have you heard of them a fellow by the 00:32:17.165 --> 00:32:18.125 name of Shane Mahoney? 00:32:18.455 --> 00:32:18.955 Oh yes. 00:32:19.265 --> 00:32:19.805 Santa Claus. 00:32:20.195 --> 00:32:20.975 Santa Claus. 00:32:21.005 --> 00:32:21.395 Yes. 00:32:21.395 --> 00:32:22.475 He's from Ontario isn't he? 00:32:22.835 --> 00:32:25.325 Uh, he's from Newfoundland actually. 00:32:25.355 --> 00:32:25.995 Oh, he's a newfie. 00:32:26.014 --> 00:32:26.345 Okay. 00:32:26.345 --> 00:32:27.315 Gotcha. Yeah, he's a newfie. 00:32:27.335 --> 00:32:28.985 You wouldn't guess it by his accent. 00:32:29.225 --> 00:32:31.145 And a little Irish comes up when you 00:32:31.145 --> 00:32:31.775 talk with them. 00:32:31.775 --> 00:32:33.335 Little Newfie can come up, but for the 00:32:33.335 --> 00:32:35.285 most part, man, he's a hell of an order. 00:32:35.525 --> 00:32:37.085 Not like Lori from Cod Sounds. 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:38.520 Yeah, that's right. 00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:39.460 I love Lori. 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:40.740 And she's got the best accent. 00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:46.040 Well, he was saying something, circling 00:32:46.040 --> 00:32:47.990 back to about talking about recruiting hunters 00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:49.310 and he's talking about the North American 00:32:49.310 --> 00:32:50.390 model of conservation. 00:32:50.390 --> 00:32:53.600 And he said, everyone talks about, we got 00:32:53.600 --> 00:32:55.100 to get more hunters, we've got to recruit 00:32:55.100 --> 00:32:56.870 hunters, we've got to get women into hunting 00:32:56.870 --> 00:33:00.230 and he's taking a different approach as 00:33:00.230 --> 00:33:01.880 opposed to saying, Oh, we got to get these 00:33:02.300 --> 00:33:03.290 more hunters out there. 00:33:03.290 --> 00:33:06.050 So we have more people on our side to fight 00:33:06.050 --> 00:33:08.030 the other side, who would be anti hunting. 00:33:08.570 --> 00:33:12.140 He says, why don't we ride a trend that's 00:33:12.140 --> 00:33:15.620 already moving as opposed to trying to stop the 00:33:15.620 --> 00:33:18.120 flow of the water, get on the water and ride 00:33:18.120 --> 00:33:20.330 it down in that trend that he's looking at 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.100 his food, essentially. 00:33:22.130 --> 00:33:23.990 And he, and he set up this, so he's 00:33:23.990 --> 00:33:26.840 got Conservation Visions and The Wild 00:33:26.840 --> 00:33:27.950 Harvest Initiative. 00:33:28.520 --> 00:33:30.410 And I thought it was kind of an 00:33:30.410 --> 00:33:31.850 interesting concept. 00:33:32.060 --> 00:33:34.815 So it's not that you need more hunters, you 00:33:34.815 --> 00:33:37.845 need more people to understand why hunters 00:33:37.845 --> 00:33:40.215 hunt and to appreciate where their food comes 00:33:40.215 --> 00:33:42.315 from and understand why they should care 00:33:42.315 --> 00:33:43.065 about their food. 00:33:43.395 --> 00:33:44.745 I thought that was really interesting. 00:33:44.745 --> 00:33:46.455 And when he was saying that, because I did 00:33:46.455 --> 00:33:49.065 a podcast with him recently, when he 00:33:49.065 --> 00:33:51.255 was saying that you sprung to mind, because 00:33:51.255 --> 00:33:54.024 that's sorta your whole thing, you, I don't 00:33:54.024 --> 00:33:55.515 know if you're taking it from a conservation 00:33:55.515 --> 00:33:57.525 approach, but it's, it's what you're doing. 00:33:57.555 --> 00:33:59.835 You're, you're getting people excited about 00:33:59.835 --> 00:34:02.055 something that's already something that's sparked 00:34:02.055 --> 00:34:03.045 in their curiosity. 00:34:03.485 --> 00:34:05.405 I, I think I, I don't know that I take it 00:34:05.405 --> 00:34:08.615 specifically from a conservation perspective. 00:34:08.675 --> 00:34:11.345 Although I, I I'm aware that it is important. 00:34:11.375 --> 00:34:15.965 So the ansul is kind of like, um, it would be an 00:34:15.965 --> 00:34:19.445 add on to what Mahoney is talking about is that 00:34:19.865 --> 00:34:25.415 when you are invested as a gatherer, or an 00:34:25.415 --> 00:34:28.235 angler or a hunter, you have skin in the 00:34:28.235 --> 00:34:30.605 game, in the places in which you do your thing. 00:34:31.625 --> 00:34:35.580 So what Mahoney is talking about, I think, 00:34:36.030 --> 00:34:39.810 is that, so here's me, I'm a guy who does these 00:34:39.810 --> 00:34:43.980 things and, um, like we mentioned off the air, 00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:47.430 there have been years where I have, um, or I 00:34:47.430 --> 00:34:50.760 have hunted more big game meat than I, that I ended 00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:52.240 up, could use in a year. 00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:55.590 So I distributed that big game meat as gifts 00:34:55.830 --> 00:34:56.850 to friends and family. 00:34:57.720 --> 00:34:59.850 And so there everybody who does these things 00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:02.190 gathering or angling or hunting has this 00:35:02.190 --> 00:35:06.510 halo around him or her, who have people 00:35:06.510 --> 00:35:09.450 who can appreciate the gifts from the wild. 00:35:09.990 --> 00:35:13.170 So everybody who receives those gifts or who does 00:35:13.170 --> 00:35:16.050 the actual thing has skin in the game of keeping 00:35:16.050 --> 00:35:20.790 the environment as, as, as healthy, healthy is 00:35:20.790 --> 00:35:22.440 probably a good word for it as possible. 00:35:23.070 --> 00:35:27.630 Um, if you are an urban dweller, typically it's 00:35:27.630 --> 00:35:30.600 an urban dweller, uh, who has zero connection 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:31.590 to the wild world. 00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:37.799 If you ignore it, it'll go away and they don't 00:35:37.799 --> 00:35:39.779 have any connection to it whatsoever. 00:35:39.779 --> 00:35:42.120 So what that means is they don't have, there's 00:35:42.120 --> 00:35:45.060 no real reason to value it, except as a pretty 00:35:45.060 --> 00:35:47.400 thing for that they see in TV commercials or 00:35:47.430 --> 00:35:49.140 maybe they drive through it once in a while. 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:52.620 And the interesting thing about that view 00:35:52.620 --> 00:35:54.540 is because there's quite a lot of urban dwellers 00:35:54.540 --> 00:35:56.730 who, who say they feel quite strongly about 00:35:56.730 --> 00:35:59.490 the environment, is that when you don't live in 00:35:59.490 --> 00:36:02.069 it or don't participate in it, you view it as 00:36:02.069 --> 00:36:05.460 a museum to look at and not as our home. 00:36:06.660 --> 00:36:09.750 And it's our home, wherever we're just 00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:12.509 animals, you know, we're, we're hairless 00:36:12.509 --> 00:36:15.600 monkeys with thumbs and. 00:36:15.990 --> 00:36:18.960 And we're just a little bit more clever than most 00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:19.650 of the other animals. 00:36:19.650 --> 00:36:21.359 Just a little bit, you know, like 00:36:21.390 --> 00:36:23.279 think about it, if dolphins had thumbs, 00:36:23.279 --> 00:36:25.279 we'd be in trouble. 00:36:27.319 --> 00:36:27.819 Yeah. 00:36:27.980 --> 00:36:31.845 You know, so, um, The fact that we're 00:36:31.845 --> 00:36:35.985 incredibly divorced from our natural origins 00:36:36.825 --> 00:36:39.165 is something that's the larger picture of 00:36:39.165 --> 00:36:39.735 what I'm trying to do. 00:36:39.735 --> 00:36:42.225 I'm trying to have more people had more 00:36:42.225 --> 00:36:45.525 skin in the game so that when it comes time 00:36:45.525 --> 00:36:47.145 to, and you're seeing this, you're seeing 00:36:47.145 --> 00:36:49.155 this in American and in Canadian politics to some 00:36:49.155 --> 00:36:54.135 extent, um, where, yeah, there's even staunch 00:36:54.165 --> 00:36:57.585 conservative Republicans when some other facet 00:36:57.585 --> 00:37:00.865 of the Republican party wants to, um, wreck 00:37:00.915 --> 00:37:03.945 a natural spot for, usually mining and 00:37:03.945 --> 00:37:05.205 gas sometimes logging. 00:37:05.685 --> 00:37:09.885 Um, then, but they're hunters, you know, 00:37:09.885 --> 00:37:12.705 they're staunch conservatives, but 00:37:12.705 --> 00:37:13.455 they're hunters. 00:37:14.235 --> 00:37:16.635 Uh, and they're like, no, you can't do this, 00:37:16.665 --> 00:37:19.185 you're going to wreck the spots because 00:37:19.185 --> 00:37:19.905 they skin in the game. 00:37:20.475 --> 00:37:25.274 And so that's a way for, um, I guess wise 00:37:25.274 --> 00:37:27.555 uses one word for it, there's a lot of use, you 00:37:27.555 --> 00:37:28.515 know, buzz words for it. 00:37:28.524 --> 00:37:33.134 But the bottom line is the, the perspective of, 00:37:33.634 --> 00:37:39.045 of the wild world as a home to not, don't mess 00:37:39.045 --> 00:37:42.285 your home up, versus you museum to never touch. 00:37:42.285 --> 00:37:43.605 Like a great example is logging. 00:37:44.535 --> 00:37:46.605 So there are lots of ways that logging can 00:37:46.605 --> 00:37:50.595 be done to the advantage of, of the forest, 00:37:51.165 --> 00:37:52.274 it's selective logging. 00:37:52.274 --> 00:37:53.654 And in some cases like, especially 00:37:53.654 --> 00:37:56.024 in the East grouse, for example, grouse 00:37:56.024 --> 00:37:57.315 really dig clear cuts. 00:37:58.095 --> 00:38:01.515 Um, and, and historically, before 00:38:01.515 --> 00:38:04.245 we showed up, um, that would have been 00:38:04.245 --> 00:38:07.665 a side effect of, uh, microbursts and storms, 00:38:07.694 --> 00:38:08.625 which would knocked down a whole bunch of 00:38:08.625 --> 00:38:09.375 trees at the same time. 00:38:10.605 --> 00:38:14.504 So then once humans showed up, you're 00:38:14.504 --> 00:38:16.634 talking about native Americans and you know, 00:38:16.634 --> 00:38:19.305 and First Nations people you are talking about 00:38:19.455 --> 00:38:20.685 managed use of fire. 00:38:21.540 --> 00:38:24.150 So for a hundred years, I don't know about Canada. 00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:25.410 And I just think it's the same in Canada, 00:38:25.650 --> 00:38:28.050 but in the United States, we had a no 00:38:28.050 --> 00:38:29.700 fire at anytime policy. 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:30.610 Right. 00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:33.180 So what that did is that that allowed the 00:38:33.180 --> 00:38:36.570 understory of our Western forests to get so thick 00:38:37.200 --> 00:38:38.670 that when you do have a fire, you get what's 00:38:38.670 --> 00:38:41.610 called a ladder fire and it will wreck a forest. 00:38:41.700 --> 00:38:44.700 Whereas when the natives were there and they 00:38:44.700 --> 00:38:45.900 were like, yeah, yeah, we're going to burn this 00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:47.010 stuff at the right time. 00:38:47.610 --> 00:38:48.990 And we're going to run this fire through. 00:38:48.990 --> 00:38:50.640 And it's essentially like a brass and 00:38:50.640 --> 00:38:51.540 little stick fire. 00:38:51.750 --> 00:38:54.270 And it's, it's not that hot and it goes really 00:38:54.270 --> 00:38:56.430 super fast and it clears out that underbrush 00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:57.990 and it actually helps trees and it helps a 00:38:58.110 --> 00:39:00.540 whole bunch of conifers actually set seed. 00:39:01.140 --> 00:39:02.820 But there's a whole bunch of conifers that won't 00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:05.430 actually, their seeds wont germinate, unless 00:39:05.430 --> 00:39:07.410 they've been burned or chared, you know, 00:39:07.410 --> 00:39:09.000 obviously they can't be incinerated, but. 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:09.420 Right. 00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:10.740 And then that's the thing it's like when you get 00:39:10.740 --> 00:39:12.930 these big old ladder fires through like, 00:39:13.230 --> 00:39:13.950 Oh no, it's a museum. 00:39:13.950 --> 00:39:14.520 You can't touch it. 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.460 Then what happens is the fire burns so hot, 00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:19.890 you burn the seeds to a crisp and then you've 00:39:19.890 --> 00:39:20.430 gone the other way. 00:39:21.419 --> 00:39:22.740 So, let me ask, this sort of one little 00:39:22.740 --> 00:39:24.209 example of yeah. 00:39:24.209 --> 00:39:26.250 You know, we live here and sure we can 00:39:26.250 --> 00:39:28.200 mess things up, but we can also be an agent 00:39:28.200 --> 00:39:29.370 for positive change. 00:39:31.609 --> 00:39:33.919 I think what Shane said, he said something along 00:39:33.919 --> 00:39:38.779 the lines of, it's not that there's a different 00:39:38.779 --> 00:39:42.410 set of rules for the animals and for me, 00:39:42.439 --> 00:39:45.350 the issue is, is that I am one of the animals. 00:39:45.410 --> 00:39:45.799 Right. 00:39:45.799 --> 00:39:46.520 Exactly that. 00:39:47.540 --> 00:39:51.080 For people to get skin in the game, 32 years 00:39:51.080 --> 00:39:52.339 old, you started hunting. 00:39:52.700 --> 00:39:53.060 Yep. 00:39:53.060 --> 00:39:55.520 What kind of tips would you have for 00:39:55.700 --> 00:39:57.169 a late onset hunter? 00:39:57.169 --> 00:39:58.729 Cause we get people calling up saying, 00:39:58.759 --> 00:40:01.339 ah, you know, I, I never, I didn't have 00:40:01.459 --> 00:40:02.660 hunting in my family. 00:40:02.660 --> 00:40:04.310 I'd never be able to pick it up, I'm never going 00:40:04.310 --> 00:40:05.240 to be able to master it. 00:40:05.240 --> 00:40:06.589 Maybe I'll dabble a little bit. 00:40:06.589 --> 00:40:09.259 And I don't, I don't necessarily think 00:40:09.259 --> 00:40:11.779 that's true and case in point yourself. 00:40:11.930 --> 00:40:14.085 I mean, what, what would you tell 00:40:14.085 --> 00:40:16.725 people to look at and concentrate on if they 00:40:16.725 --> 00:40:19.695 wanted to awaken that interest in themselves? 00:40:20.435 --> 00:40:22.985 Uh, well, number one is to try the 00:40:22.985 --> 00:40:23.685 fruits of the labour. 00:40:24.395 --> 00:40:28.055 So first and foremost, if you want to be 00:40:28.055 --> 00:40:30.095 involved in gathering, or angling, or hunting, 00:40:31.565 --> 00:40:34.885 you need to enjoy the fruits of that labour. 00:40:35.175 --> 00:40:38.405 So you have to, I think most people have bought 00:40:38.405 --> 00:40:41.975 fish from, this is, you know, this is a side 00:40:41.975 --> 00:40:46.295 note um, fish is the primarily wild food that 00:40:46.475 --> 00:40:47.645 the world still eats. 00:40:48.485 --> 00:40:51.605 It's the last gathered food, you know, I mean, 00:40:51.605 --> 00:40:53.145 there's, you know, obviously the wild 00:40:53.165 --> 00:40:54.395 mushrooms, but that's kind of a boutique 00:40:54.395 --> 00:40:57.035 product where most of the people listening to 00:40:57.035 --> 00:40:58.985 this, if not all of the people listening to this 00:40:59.315 --> 00:41:00.275 have eaten wild fish. 00:41:01.985 --> 00:41:03.015 So that's number one. 00:41:03.415 --> 00:41:04.085 That's a good point. 00:41:04.085 --> 00:41:06.285 Uh, for gathering wild mushrooms is 00:41:06.294 --> 00:41:07.725 probably be a good way to go about it. 00:41:07.785 --> 00:41:10.035 Um, if you live in the East ramps or 00:41:10.035 --> 00:41:12.375 fiddleheads, and you know, there are some 00:41:12.375 --> 00:41:14.595 commercially available wild food products 00:41:14.595 --> 00:41:15.615 that you can buy. 00:41:16.335 --> 00:41:19.424 Um, and then with hunting, typically you 00:41:19.424 --> 00:41:21.285 have to have a friend who does it, however, 00:41:21.285 --> 00:41:24.825 you can try farmed game, which is a game 00:41:24.825 --> 00:41:27.254 meat, that's not really wild game because it's 00:41:27.375 --> 00:41:29.205 because of that North American model that Shane 00:41:29.205 --> 00:41:30.105 Mahoney is talking about. 00:41:30.674 --> 00:41:31.814 You cannot, you haven't been able to 00:41:31.814 --> 00:41:34.515 buy real wild game from North America 00:41:34.515 --> 00:41:35.685 for over a century. 00:41:36.105 --> 00:41:36.825 It's been illegal. 00:41:37.365 --> 00:41:38.924 Now that said there is a company called 00:41:38.924 --> 00:41:41.504 D'Artagnan, where they will sell 00:41:41.504 --> 00:41:43.904 British game online. 00:41:44.085 --> 00:41:46.424 It's expensive, but it's real, real wild game. 00:41:46.424 --> 00:41:48.015 I mean, you know, pellets and all. 00:41:48.645 --> 00:41:52.575 Um, so the, you kinda got to get your feet 00:41:52.575 --> 00:41:54.915 wet and that's kinda how I got into it 00:41:54.915 --> 00:41:58.845 was, um, as a child, I had the privilege 00:41:59.355 --> 00:42:03.450 of being, uh, sort of situational only child. 00:42:03.450 --> 00:42:05.370 So, cause my, my next sister is seven years 00:42:05.370 --> 00:42:05.970 older than I am. 00:42:05.970 --> 00:42:08.160 So it was just me and my mom and my 00:42:08.160 --> 00:42:10.439 stepdad for quite some time in the house. 00:42:10.439 --> 00:42:11.790 And so they really like to eat at 00:42:11.790 --> 00:42:12.540 nice restaurants. 00:42:12.540 --> 00:42:15.149 So when the only the one kid in tow and a kid who 00:42:15.189 --> 00:42:19.350 like good food, uh, I got exposed to game meats in 00:42:19.350 --> 00:42:21.359 a very high end setting in Italian or French 00:42:21.359 --> 00:42:24.299 restaurants in New York city back in around 1980. 00:42:24.810 --> 00:42:29.850 And so I always had it in my mind, a, um, that 00:42:29.850 --> 00:42:32.680 game and, and squab and duck and goose 00:42:32.680 --> 00:42:36.209 and venison they were always luxury foods. 00:42:36.569 --> 00:42:38.729 They're always high-end foods. 00:42:39.120 --> 00:42:39.629 Right. 00:42:39.689 --> 00:42:42.689 And so then flash forward, my friend, 00:42:42.689 --> 00:42:44.490 Chris Niskanen, who is the outdoor writer, the 00:42:44.490 --> 00:42:46.680 newspaper that we both worked at in Minnesota 00:42:46.680 --> 00:42:50.490 at the time he started just giving me a duck or 00:42:50.490 --> 00:42:52.950 giving me some pheasants or giving me some venison 00:42:52.979 --> 00:42:56.700 and because I knew how to cook and because I 00:42:56.729 --> 00:43:01.450 had this early experience with high-end game meats, 00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.040 this is, I got to have more of this, you know, 00:43:05.040 --> 00:43:06.720 and I'd already fished and gathered things 00:43:06.780 --> 00:43:07.500 for my whole life. 00:43:07.950 --> 00:43:12.030 So I knew what the end result was going to 00:43:12.030 --> 00:43:15.510 be before I got and did the hard work. 00:43:15.660 --> 00:43:18.020 So the hard work for, hunt, hard work, hunting 00:43:18.020 --> 00:43:19.980 is hardest of the, all of the 3 to get involved in. 00:43:20.730 --> 00:43:23.730 Now with gathering, it's probably the second 00:43:23.730 --> 00:43:26.820 hardest because, uh, let's just knock fishing 00:43:26.820 --> 00:43:28.800 at first, fishing is easy, hire a guide, 00:43:29.040 --> 00:43:29.640 do what they say. 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:34.230 Don't gut the guide and, and you will eventually 00:43:34.230 --> 00:43:37.830 catch fish and you will, you'll, you know, you buy 00:43:37.830 --> 00:43:40.320 my book, Hook, Line and Supper available wherever 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:40.950 fine books are sold. 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:42.710 Get it. 00:43:42.710 --> 00:43:45.020 If it's anything like the other books it's 00:43:45.020 --> 00:43:46.160 going to be fantastic. 00:43:46.220 --> 00:43:47.450 It's actually going to be better, um. 00:43:47.450 --> 00:43:48.670 Well I look forward to it. 00:43:48.670 --> 00:43:50.120 Because of the, my long experience 00:43:50.120 --> 00:43:52.310 with this stuff, but anyway, I digress. 00:43:52.580 --> 00:43:52.790 Yeah. 00:43:52.790 --> 00:43:55.010 Um, there's lots of information out there 00:43:55.040 --> 00:43:56.270 for the budding angler. 00:43:57.495 --> 00:43:58.694 It is a, it is a pursuit. 00:43:58.694 --> 00:44:00.075 I mean, it's one of those things where the 00:44:00.075 --> 00:44:03.794 difference, a real true angler is not just a 00:44:03.794 --> 00:44:05.774 person with a rod and reel in his or her hand. 00:44:06.615 --> 00:44:08.895 Um, but you can start like that. 00:44:09.674 --> 00:44:13.694 So similarly with gathering, um, I always 00:44:13.754 --> 00:44:15.475 tell people to start with your own property. 00:44:17.705 --> 00:44:20.774 Start, start with learning the names 00:44:20.774 --> 00:44:22.214 of the plants that are on your property. 00:44:22.575 --> 00:44:24.674 You will find that probably 50% of them 00:44:24.674 --> 00:44:26.174 are edible in some way, shape or form, 00:44:28.095 --> 00:44:29.475 unless you've, of course you've only have 00:44:29.475 --> 00:44:30.435 grass, which is weird. 00:44:30.585 --> 00:44:33.794 Um, but some people do and. 00:44:34.515 --> 00:44:36.885 Fi, even the process of learning the names 00:44:36.885 --> 00:44:40.545 of those, um, it will open you to this world. 00:44:40.575 --> 00:44:42.115 Like, so there's homework involved in 00:44:42.135 --> 00:44:44.595 gathering because there are poisonous plants, 00:44:44.745 --> 00:44:46.515 not many, but there are poisonous plants. 00:44:46.995 --> 00:44:49.245 And there's a couple of families, notably the 00:44:49.245 --> 00:44:52.335 carrot family, which has hemlock and it's 00:44:52.335 --> 00:44:54.615 got water hemlock and you know, so there, 00:44:54.615 --> 00:44:56.325 there are toxic plants in that category. 00:44:56.325 --> 00:44:57.945 So you're like, Oh, okay, this family, 00:44:57.945 --> 00:44:59.385 but first of all, you have to know that it 00:44:59.385 --> 00:45:02.745 is a family of plants and, and that they're 00:45:02.745 --> 00:45:04.605 all related in some way and that, and that 00:45:04.755 --> 00:45:05.775 they share structure. 00:45:06.795 --> 00:45:08.325 So yes, there's some homework involved, 00:45:08.535 --> 00:45:09.765 but you can do that in your couch. 00:45:10.095 --> 00:45:13.515 Um, there are apps like iNaturalist, or 00:45:13.545 --> 00:45:16.655 I forget what they're called they're okay. 00:45:16.685 --> 00:45:18.295 But they're the kind of like the wikipedia 00:45:18.295 --> 00:45:20.855 of gathering, in the sense that I don't know 00:45:20.855 --> 00:45:22.415 that I'm going to trust it a hundred percent. 00:45:22.475 --> 00:45:23.825 Like, I don't know that I'm going to 00:45:23.825 --> 00:45:26.945 trust my life on a cell phone app when 00:45:26.945 --> 00:45:28.414 I'm in the woods right. 00:45:28.785 --> 00:45:29.285 Right. 00:45:29.975 --> 00:45:31.625 So use it as a tool. 00:45:31.715 --> 00:45:34.185 And this is the thing, I mean, this is a, you 00:45:34.185 --> 00:45:35.525 know, you have to learn how to learn and, and, 00:45:35.535 --> 00:45:38.475 and, and many, any decent college will tell you 00:45:38.595 --> 00:45:40.275 how to learn, how to learn, which is to say 00:45:40.875 --> 00:45:43.575 that's one source, work with other sources. 00:45:44.115 --> 00:45:46.815 I can tell you that if you live anywhere, 00:45:46.845 --> 00:45:48.615 other than where you and I live. 00:45:48.735 --> 00:45:51.375 In other words, the West coast, um, the 00:45:51.375 --> 00:45:53.565 books of Sam Thayer, he lives in Wisconsin 00:45:53.685 --> 00:45:54.765 are very, very good. 00:45:55.515 --> 00:45:58.215 Um, he's got three or four out, um, 00:45:58.245 --> 00:46:00.315 and they are they're worth or buy them. 00:46:00.345 --> 00:46:01.695 They're worth every penny. 00:46:02.115 --> 00:46:06.285 And they, they, um, they involve plants from 00:46:06.285 --> 00:46:09.765 about the great Plains to the Atlantic ocean 00:46:09.915 --> 00:46:12.885 from about the boreal forest, all the way down 00:46:12.885 --> 00:46:13.845 to Northern Florida. 00:46:15.225 --> 00:46:17.805 Now with hunting, that's the hardest. 00:46:18.765 --> 00:46:20.625 So you have to really want to be involved 00:46:20.745 --> 00:46:23.205 because hunting, the act of hunting is the 00:46:23.205 --> 00:46:24.135 hardest of the three. 00:46:24.675 --> 00:46:27.855 And the aftermath of the hunting is hardest of the 00:46:27.855 --> 00:46:31.229 three and the skill set you need to, to know, is 00:46:31.229 --> 00:46:32.100 the hardest of the three. 00:46:32.879 --> 00:46:35.790 So I highly recommend you start with, well, 00:46:35.790 --> 00:46:36.479 what's the result. 00:46:36.629 --> 00:46:37.720 Do you really like venison? 00:46:37.740 --> 00:46:39.750 Do you really like upland game birds? 00:46:39.750 --> 00:46:40.740 Do you really like squirrels? 00:46:40.740 --> 00:46:42.000 Do you really like ducks? 00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:47.819 Um, then that will start your, your journey. 00:46:49.109 --> 00:46:52.020 And when you decide that this D this is the 00:46:52.020 --> 00:46:53.430 thing, or these are the things that I want to 00:46:53.430 --> 00:46:57.029 pursue, number two, do they live where you do? 00:46:58.259 --> 00:47:00.720 So I might want to hunt grouse and 00:47:00.720 --> 00:47:02.879 pheasants all I want. 00:47:03.450 --> 00:47:04.919 They don't really live in California. 00:47:05.250 --> 00:47:07.589 I mean, there's, there are a few wild pheasants 00:47:07.589 --> 00:47:09.099 and there are a few wild grouse where I live, but 00:47:09.099 --> 00:47:10.740 it's really, that's not really what you do if 00:47:10.740 --> 00:47:12.970 you live where I do, you hunt ducks and geese. 00:47:13.749 --> 00:47:18.930 And that's important because if I was a 00:47:18.930 --> 00:47:22.080 dedicated tuna fishermen, which I used to be, I 00:47:22.080 --> 00:47:25.379 wouldn't lay where I live now because I have to go 00:47:25.379 --> 00:47:29.160 a long way to even get on a boat, to fish for tuna. 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:32.459 I have to go a long way to, to hunt a rough 00:47:32.459 --> 00:47:33.569 grouse or a woodcock. 00:47:34.620 --> 00:47:38.040 So proximity is important because if you have to 00:47:38.040 --> 00:47:39.750 travel, you'll do it once or twice a year. 00:47:39.750 --> 00:47:42.419 And like, meh, you know, I mean, you only at 00:47:42.419 --> 00:47:43.350 best be a dilettante. 00:47:44.700 --> 00:47:46.770 Um, then you have to learn your weapon, 00:47:47.669 --> 00:47:50.669 whether it's a shotgun or a rifle or a bow, 00:47:51.149 --> 00:47:52.379 you have to learn your weapon and you have to 00:47:52.379 --> 00:47:54.660 be good at it because you, this is, this is, 00:47:54.689 --> 00:47:58.799 this is really important because you can't, 00:47:58.799 --> 00:48:01.919 unshoot a bird, you can't unshoot a deer. 00:48:02.399 --> 00:48:04.169 And so you owe it to yourself and 00:48:04.169 --> 00:48:06.750 to the animal that you are pursuing to 00:48:06.750 --> 00:48:07.890 be a clean killer. 00:48:08.339 --> 00:48:09.930 And it sounds harsh, but it's true. 00:48:10.439 --> 00:48:13.080 So flip the script for a second. 00:48:13.620 --> 00:48:14.220 If I'm Mr. 00:48:14.220 --> 00:48:18.180 Deer walking around in the woods, would I rather 00:48:18.180 --> 00:48:22.020 be shot in the heart and be like, Oh my God, 00:48:22.020 --> 00:48:23.129 I'm dying and then dead. 00:48:23.580 --> 00:48:26.070 Or would I rather be shot in the liver and 00:48:26.070 --> 00:48:28.310 die over the course of 24 hours, I think, 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:28.980 you know the answer. 00:48:29.370 --> 00:48:30.509 You know, both suck in the end because you're 00:48:30.509 --> 00:48:33.930 dead, but one's a harsher nastier way to go. 00:48:34.950 --> 00:48:39.420 And if you're constantly behind on your birds and 00:48:39.450 --> 00:48:41.160 which is the big, single biggest problem for, 00:48:41.279 --> 00:48:43.020 for beginners they're behind on the bird. 00:48:43.680 --> 00:48:46.230 Um, I always say if you're new to hunting any 00:48:46.230 --> 00:48:48.630 bird, if you're going to miss miss in front of it. 00:48:50.279 --> 00:48:52.049 And if you just think that you're going to be 00:48:52.049 --> 00:48:55.440 a better bird shot, and I have actually missed 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:57.833 in front of birds where you see the bird go ehhh. 00:48:57.833 --> 00:48:58.549 That's right. 00:48:58.549 --> 00:48:59.210 Put the brakes on. 00:48:59.210 --> 00:49:01.240 It's like Daffy duck and air brakes. 00:49:01.240 --> 00:49:02.630 See pellets, I think they feel the air 00:49:02.630 --> 00:49:03.770 or something coming at 'em or something. 00:49:03.830 --> 00:49:06.350 But anyway, you owe it to be a marksman, 00:49:06.560 --> 00:49:07.490 in whatever it is that you do. 00:49:07.490 --> 00:49:08.990 And that, that requires practice. 00:49:09.020 --> 00:49:10.220 You have to practice it that. 00:49:10.759 --> 00:49:12.470 And so that's your homework there and plus 00:49:12.470 --> 00:49:14.090 you have to learn the habits of the animal 00:49:14.150 --> 00:49:15.170 where the animal lives. 00:49:16.190 --> 00:49:18.020 None of this is, is plug and play. 00:49:18.170 --> 00:49:19.700 The closest to plug and play you get is a 00:49:19.700 --> 00:49:20.870 party boat for fishing. 00:49:22.815 --> 00:49:27.375 And, and all of this is, is becomes 00:49:27.375 --> 00:49:28.125 part of who you are. 00:49:28.125 --> 00:49:31.545 So 30 years ago, 20 years ago. 00:49:32.295 --> 00:49:35.325 20 years ago, I ha I defined myself in a 00:49:35.325 --> 00:49:36.205 large part as a runner. 00:49:36.205 --> 00:49:36.705 Right. 00:49:37.285 --> 00:49:38.625 Cause I was a very good distance runner 00:49:39.765 --> 00:49:41.925 and, you know, I would walk in the room and 00:49:41.925 --> 00:49:43.785 somebody, well what are you, I'm a runner, you 00:49:43.785 --> 00:49:45.495 know, I'm, yeah, I'm a journalist, but yeah, 00:49:45.505 --> 00:49:46.185 I'm really a runner. 00:49:46.395 --> 00:49:49.625 And you kind of do that with hunting and fishing 00:49:49.725 --> 00:49:51.645 and gathering as well. 00:49:52.485 --> 00:49:55.725 It, it becomes part of how you define yourself. 00:49:56.085 --> 00:49:57.255 Cause it's not just something that you pick 00:49:57.255 --> 00:49:59.835 up and put down, you can do that with fishing, 00:50:00.195 --> 00:50:01.755 but you really can't with anything else. 00:50:02.085 --> 00:50:03.945 And if you do with hunting, cause I seen 00:50:03.945 --> 00:50:08.345 'em, I've seen 'em where we'll do guided hunts, 00:50:08.415 --> 00:50:10.695 forage where I cook and you know, I help guide 00:50:10.695 --> 00:50:12.585 some times and process animals and stuff. 00:50:12.975 --> 00:50:15.105 And you'll see people who have like, yeah, 00:50:15.105 --> 00:50:16.755 they're really just here for the food and they, 00:50:16.765 --> 00:50:19.035 they hunt maybe once a year or twice a year. 00:50:19.215 --> 00:50:22.050 That's fine, in that environment, because 00:50:22.050 --> 00:50:23.910 we are doing a very level best to make 00:50:23.910 --> 00:50:25.380 sure that everything comes out okay. 00:50:25.980 --> 00:50:27.540 But that's not really a hunter. 00:50:29.100 --> 00:50:29.790 That's a shooter. 00:50:30.590 --> 00:50:31.090 Yeah. 00:50:31.250 --> 00:50:31.960 Yeah. Good point. 00:50:33.730 --> 00:50:34.790 Yeah it's a heck of a commitment 00:50:34.790 --> 00:50:35.419 that's for sure. 00:50:35.629 --> 00:50:36.129 It is. 00:50:37.009 --> 00:50:39.590 So small game or big game what's 00:50:39.590 --> 00:50:40.090 your favorite? 00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:41.900 Small game, a hundred percent. 00:50:42.380 --> 00:50:43.810 Like I like hunting deer and I like it. 00:50:43.810 --> 00:50:46.370 Like I put in for an oryx in New Mexico this year. 00:50:46.370 --> 00:50:48.650 I don't know if I'm going to get it, but, um, 00:50:48.740 --> 00:50:50.450 you know, I put in for big game stuff because 00:50:50.450 --> 00:50:51.350 I think it's exciting. 00:50:51.350 --> 00:50:52.100 It's an adventure. 00:50:52.850 --> 00:50:56.210 But it's, it's a lot of it's serious business. 00:50:56.720 --> 00:50:58.430 You know, elk hunting is serious business. 00:50:59.270 --> 00:51:02.540 Um, even deer hunting is serious business, 00:51:03.170 --> 00:51:05.240 whereas, you know, you can go out duck 00:51:05.240 --> 00:51:06.860 hunting and sure it's serious cause you're 00:51:06.860 --> 00:51:08.660 actually, you're killing animals to eat. 00:51:09.260 --> 00:51:14.080 Um, but it's somehow more, it's 00:51:14.080 --> 00:51:14.690 somehow lighter. 00:51:15.420 --> 00:51:18.430 It's somehow, um, nobody's pissed off 00:51:18.430 --> 00:51:20.010 of serious when you're hunting pheasants, 00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:20.840 if you are, you're. 00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:21.160 Right. 00:51:21.160 --> 00:51:22.210 Not somebody I wanna be with. 00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:23.150 You're doing it wrong. 00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:24.880 Yeah. You're doing it wrong. 00:51:25.290 --> 00:51:27.020 And plus, I mean, just from a very 00:51:27.050 --> 00:51:29.420 specific, forget the actual acquisition 00:51:29.420 --> 00:51:32.540 of the protein for a second and, and big 00:51:32.540 --> 00:51:33.260 game is all red meat. 00:51:33.980 --> 00:51:34.890 Period, end of story. 00:51:34.970 --> 00:51:36.050 It's all lean red meat. 00:51:36.170 --> 00:51:37.670 Now there's differences. 00:51:37.970 --> 00:51:39.320 Like I shot a nilgai last year and it 00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:39.950 was pretty cool. 00:51:40.520 --> 00:51:44.930 Um, it's a bovid so it's more related to the cow 00:51:44.930 --> 00:51:46.190 than it is to the deer. 00:51:46.490 --> 00:51:48.860 So the fat is more like beef tallow than 00:51:48.860 --> 00:51:50.510 it is like deer fat, which means it does 00:51:50.510 --> 00:51:51.620 not coach your mouth. 00:51:51.850 --> 00:51:52.529 Interesting. 00:51:52.550 --> 00:51:54.490 So it was very lean, but the fat that 00:51:54.490 --> 00:51:55.640 it had was amazing. 00:51:56.150 --> 00:51:57.320 So that was kind of a neat little thing, 00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:58.730 but it's still, it's, it's basically beef. 00:51:58.910 --> 00:52:01.820 It's like super, super lean grass fed beef. 00:52:02.930 --> 00:52:06.560 Or small game, you have the diversity of colour. 00:52:06.710 --> 00:52:08.570 You have the diversity in texture, you have the 00:52:08.600 --> 00:52:09.450 diversity of flavour. 00:52:09.470 --> 00:52:12.530 You have some of the strongest, no, you have 00:52:12.560 --> 00:52:17.475 the strongest flavoured wild animals that we eat 00:52:17.535 --> 00:52:22.395 in the small game world, ptarmigan, muskrat, 00:52:23.085 --> 00:52:25.335 um, sharp tail grouse. 00:52:25.695 --> 00:52:26.195 Right. 00:52:26.595 --> 00:52:28.875 You know, squirrel has a significant flavor. 00:52:28.875 --> 00:52:30.795 I like it, but you know, it's a squirrel. 00:52:31.245 --> 00:52:31.745 Yeah. 00:52:31.875 --> 00:52:33.134 Like if you a squirrel, you're like, 00:52:33.165 --> 00:52:33.825 that's not chicken. 00:52:34.425 --> 00:52:35.145 It looks like chicken. 00:52:35.565 --> 00:52:36.765 It's not, doesn't taste like chicken. 00:52:37.245 --> 00:52:41.605 So you have these, um, powerful flavours. 00:52:41.625 --> 00:52:44.235 And, and this is where you would talk about 00:52:44.235 --> 00:52:48.045 gamey meat in the sense that, um, that it's 00:52:48.045 --> 00:52:50.475 gamey in the way that the may, that word was 00:52:50.475 --> 00:52:52.875 meant to be used, in the sense that is a, it's 00:52:52.875 --> 00:52:56.315 a meat that has its own flavor as opposed to off. 00:52:57.055 --> 00:52:57.555 Right. 00:52:59.275 --> 00:53:01.805 So that's an interesting thought too. 00:53:01.985 --> 00:53:08.525 I've seen discussions and arguments over what 00:53:08.525 --> 00:53:13.215 makes game meat tastes gamey where some have 00:53:13.215 --> 00:53:15.975 a very strong gamey flavour and some don't. 00:53:15.975 --> 00:53:19.275 And I think, uh, Rinella did some stuff testing 00:53:19.425 --> 00:53:21.705 meat by rubbing a knife on a scent gland, 00:53:21.705 --> 00:53:23.025 and then cutting the meat with it to see 00:53:23.025 --> 00:53:24.795 kind of what flavour that would impart. 00:53:24.795 --> 00:53:27.555 And some people will be put off by the 00:53:27.555 --> 00:53:32.955 whole gamey flavour and some meats will stay 00:53:32.955 --> 00:53:33.975 stronger than others. 00:53:34.275 --> 00:53:36.525 Do you have any thoughts as to what will make 00:53:36.795 --> 00:53:39.585 one game meat taste gamier than the other 00:53:39.615 --> 00:53:40.634 of the same species? 00:53:41.045 --> 00:53:42.515 I actually wrote an entire article on it. 00:53:42.545 --> 00:53:45.095 If you Google the words, gamey meat, you will 00:53:45.095 --> 00:53:46.085 see my article on it. 00:53:46.265 --> 00:53:46.775 Oh, there we go. 00:53:46.835 --> 00:53:49.175 Um, so the short version is this. 00:53:49.415 --> 00:53:50.285 Yes, absolutely. 00:53:50.585 --> 00:53:52.895 Um, there's a number of things that affect 00:53:52.895 --> 00:53:54.464 flavour and the strength of the flavour. 00:53:56.134 --> 00:53:58.205 Number one is diet. 00:53:58.925 --> 00:53:59.345 Okay. 00:53:59.345 --> 00:54:02.315 So a sagebrush eating animal is going to be 00:54:02.345 --> 00:54:04.925 more strongly flavoured than a animal that 00:54:04.925 --> 00:54:05.975 eats farmed grains. 00:54:07.335 --> 00:54:09.915 Uh, two, species, which is sometimes 00:54:09.945 --> 00:54:11.295 also deals with diet. 00:54:11.535 --> 00:54:16.515 So a white tail in Iowa is going to eat GMO corn. 00:54:17.655 --> 00:54:20.685 A white tail in the Sonoran desert of 00:54:20.715 --> 00:54:22.845 Arizona or Mexico is going to eat whatever 00:54:22.845 --> 00:54:25.785 it is you can find in the Sonoran desert, is 00:54:25.785 --> 00:54:28.155 going to taste radically different at the same 00:54:28.155 --> 00:54:29.955 species, different, different region. 00:54:30.495 --> 00:54:31.545 So now you've got ducks. 00:54:32.205 --> 00:54:34.185 There are, I don't know how many 20, some odd 00:54:34.185 --> 00:54:34.965 ducks that we hunt. 00:54:35.415 --> 00:54:37.995 There's a lot, a lot of different species. 00:54:38.775 --> 00:54:41.835 And they range from they range from 00:54:41.865 --> 00:54:45.225 scooters and sea ducks and harlequins, which 00:54:45.225 --> 00:54:47.025 are the most pretty, but most disgusting 00:54:47.025 --> 00:54:47.655 duck on the planet. 00:54:48.765 --> 00:54:49.335 They're vile. 00:54:49.395 --> 00:54:49.965 Never had one. 00:54:50.265 --> 00:54:50.835 They stink. 00:54:51.135 --> 00:54:51.765 Um. 00:54:52.484 --> 00:54:52.674 Yeah okay. 00:54:52.674 --> 00:54:53.895 I mean, if you skin them, you can eat them. 00:54:53.985 --> 00:54:56.205 But like, basically this is like Newfie food you 00:54:56.205 --> 00:55:02.115 know, they eat ters um, and ranging from them 00:55:02.115 --> 00:55:05.235 to, um, to pintails, which are never bad. 00:55:05.664 --> 00:55:05.804 Right. 00:55:05.804 --> 00:55:07.035 Wood ducks, which are never bad. 00:55:08.145 --> 00:55:10.305 To then you've got the, you know, ducks like a 00:55:10.305 --> 00:55:12.884 Mallard, which can be anything from vile to 00:55:12.884 --> 00:55:16.815 sublime, depending on now, again, diet and diet 00:55:16.815 --> 00:55:17.805 also involves region. 00:55:17.835 --> 00:55:20.714 So even within California, you've 00:55:20.714 --> 00:55:23.745 got wigeon on the Humboldt coast. 00:55:24.134 --> 00:55:27.585 So the North coast it's visually exactly the 00:55:27.585 --> 00:55:28.605 same as British Columbia. 00:55:28.995 --> 00:55:30.645 And they, these particular sets of 00:55:30.645 --> 00:55:32.775 wigeon fly up and down the coast and the eat 00:55:32.955 --> 00:55:35.295 sea lettuce and seaweeds and stuff, they are 00:55:35.595 --> 00:55:37.035 legendarily disgusting. 00:55:37.995 --> 00:55:40.725 Like disgusting, horrible, just stinky, 00:55:40.725 --> 00:55:41.415 stinky, stinky. 00:55:41.444 --> 00:55:42.795 I mean, yes, you can skin them, but. 00:55:43.275 --> 00:55:46.995 However, same species, if it flies inland and 00:55:46.995 --> 00:55:48.884 ends up in the rice fields where I live, 00:55:49.995 --> 00:55:50.924 it's unbelievable. 00:55:50.975 --> 00:55:52.365 It's one of my favorite ducks in the world 00:55:52.545 --> 00:55:56.835 because it eats rice there and same bird, same 00:55:56.835 --> 00:55:57.974 region, different diet. 00:55:58.434 --> 00:55:58.854 Interesting. 00:55:58.854 --> 00:56:01.065 So there's one other big thing that affects 00:56:01.464 --> 00:56:03.765 gameyness in terms of just no matter 00:56:03.765 --> 00:56:04.455 what you do with it. 00:56:04.665 --> 00:56:06.075 Cause we're not, we haven't really 00:56:06.075 --> 00:56:07.905 discussed game care yet. 00:56:08.745 --> 00:56:11.445 Um, but, and that's hormones. 00:56:12.345 --> 00:56:15.825 So it is 100% true that a rutty buck 00:56:15.825 --> 00:56:17.265 is going to taste differently from the 00:56:17.265 --> 00:56:19.754 buck that is after the rut or before the rut, 00:56:19.995 --> 00:56:20.865 because their hormones. 00:56:21.525 --> 00:56:23.985 Now stress hormones are a big deal and anybody 00:56:23.985 --> 00:56:27.255 who raises animals for food knows this. 00:56:27.705 --> 00:56:30.915 This is why the, the, the meat industry has 00:56:30.915 --> 00:56:33.675 developed enormous protocols to make sure 00:56:33.675 --> 00:56:36.405 that the animal that is about to be killed is as 00:56:36.405 --> 00:56:39.435 calm as possible because you can taste adrenaline, 00:56:39.945 --> 00:56:41.415 just like, you know, you hear it, they'll say you 00:56:41.415 --> 00:56:44.415 can smell fear, which you can cause it's, you know, 00:56:44.415 --> 00:56:46.335 there's their hormones and things excreated 00:56:46.335 --> 00:56:46.935 through the skin. 00:56:47.115 --> 00:56:47.565 Right. 00:56:47.565 --> 00:56:49.155 You can taste adrenaline. 00:56:51.065 --> 00:56:54.935 So people who shoot running deer or running 00:56:54.935 --> 00:56:58.265 pigs or running antelope, that's going to be a 00:56:58.265 --> 00:56:59.975 different flavor from an antelope that never 00:56:59.975 --> 00:57:00.795 knew what was coming. 00:57:02.095 --> 00:57:02.545 Interesting. 00:57:02.545 --> 00:57:05.925 And people who shoot rutty bucks, um, which 00:57:05.925 --> 00:57:07.875 is unfortunate because everybody wants to, 00:57:07.875 --> 00:57:10.665 because that's when they get really dumb, I guess 00:57:10.695 --> 00:57:12.655 if you've ever watched videos of, of rutty 00:57:12.655 --> 00:57:15.515 bucks, it is exactly like watching 23 year 00:57:15.515 --> 00:57:16.935 olds in a nightclub at about midnight. 00:57:18.525 --> 00:57:19.605 All they're doing is staring at 00:57:19.605 --> 00:57:20.445 the girl's ass. 00:57:20.725 --> 00:57:20.904 Yep. 00:57:20.904 --> 00:57:22.585 And they're like, Ooh, let me look at 00:57:22.585 --> 00:57:23.295 that, oh that's perty. 00:57:23.775 --> 00:57:26.565 And they're doing dumb things and they're 00:57:26.565 --> 00:57:28.845 fighting each other and it's it's, it's it. 00:57:28.965 --> 00:57:30.855 Anybody who says, Oh yes, we're so much more 00:57:30.855 --> 00:57:31.755 elevated than animals. 00:57:31.755 --> 00:57:34.485 Like yeah, you should just look at that, it's 00:57:34.485 --> 00:57:35.135 pretty much the same. 00:57:36.845 --> 00:57:37.185 That's funny. 00:57:37.185 --> 00:57:38.355 So yeah, that affects a lot. 00:57:38.355 --> 00:57:39.255 And then there's game care. 00:57:39.465 --> 00:57:41.355 I mean, I'm assuming everybody is taking care 00:57:41.355 --> 00:57:44.475 of their game cleanly and nicely and with ice 00:57:44.475 --> 00:57:46.305 and coals, you know, that kind of stuff. 00:57:46.335 --> 00:57:49.205 So bad game care can cause off 00:57:49.205 --> 00:57:50.325 flavours in a hurry. 00:57:51.690 --> 00:57:54.900 Um, putting game meat on a tarp is one thing 00:57:54.900 --> 00:57:57.150 I've heard is a big no-no and then other 00:57:57.150 --> 00:57:59.200 people will do it. 00:57:59.200 --> 00:58:01.980 Some people lay down bows of branches. 00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:03.330 And so they can put their game meat on that. 00:58:03.330 --> 00:58:05.439 Cause they say the tarp will infuse 00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:07.029 a terrible flavour into the game meat. 00:58:07.340 --> 00:58:07.779 I don't know about that. 00:58:07.779 --> 00:58:09.770 Not unless it's a disgusting, dirty tarp. 00:58:10.190 --> 00:58:10.460 Right. 00:58:10.460 --> 00:58:11.930 Like if you wash the in between 00:58:11.930 --> 00:58:12.830 hunts, you're fine. 00:58:13.289 --> 00:58:13.789 Right. 00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:15.319 Like. That kind of makes sense. 00:58:15.319 --> 00:58:16.700 I mean, if you enclose it, you should make a 00:58:16.700 --> 00:58:19.190 bag out of the tarp and the meat sort of stews in 00:58:19.200 --> 00:58:21.529 its own heat, you know, then yeah that's bad, 00:58:21.799 --> 00:58:23.200 but just laying it on the tarp, that's just, 00:58:23.210 --> 00:58:23.839 nothing wrong with that. 00:58:24.410 --> 00:58:24.790 Yeah. 00:58:24.790 --> 00:58:27.140 I know a fellow and he's, he'll get a whole bunch 00:58:27.140 --> 00:58:29.450 of ice and he'll put it inside the, uh, the 00:58:29.450 --> 00:58:33.020 cavity on his deer and then washes it all out. 00:58:33.080 --> 00:58:37.880 And I don't, he swears by it, I can't imagine 00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:40.069 that's the best game care method out there. 00:58:40.250 --> 00:58:41.960 It's not ideal because, and this is why, 00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:44.359 because the, I mean, assume he's not talking 00:58:44.359 --> 00:58:45.689 about big blocks ice. 00:58:46.160 --> 00:58:46.400 No. 00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:48.799 Even if he did, where ice touches meat, 00:58:49.410 --> 00:58:50.609 it, it damages meat. 00:58:50.850 --> 00:58:51.089 Right. 00:58:51.089 --> 00:58:55.080 Um, and when ice melts, uh, once the Meltwater 00:58:55.080 --> 00:58:57.960 gets about 40 degrees, it becomes a reservoir 00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:00.089 for bacteria and there's lots of bacteria, the, 00:59:00.089 --> 00:59:01.470 in a cleaned gut cavity. 00:59:02.160 --> 00:59:04.950 So I, but let's assume he's hunting where 00:59:04.950 --> 00:59:07.290 I do in that a zones where you can hunt 00:59:07.290 --> 00:59:08.880 a deer in a hundred degrees of weather. 00:59:09.839 --> 00:59:14.730 So if you were to gut that deer, take the 00:59:14.730 --> 00:59:16.620 tenderloins out because otherwise tenderloins 00:59:16.620 --> 00:59:18.310 are going to get hit by ice and wrecked. 00:59:19.020 --> 00:59:21.750 Um, and he threw a bunch of ice in the cavity for 00:59:21.750 --> 00:59:23.460 like an, I don't know, half hour, an hour. 00:59:23.520 --> 00:59:24.420 That's not going to hurt anything. 00:59:24.569 --> 00:59:26.190 It'll cool the carcass down pretty quick. 00:59:26.490 --> 00:59:28.920 But soaking, that's an entirely different story. 00:59:30.029 --> 00:59:31.500 That's a Texas thing, they do that 00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:32.190 in Texas a lot. 00:59:32.190 --> 00:59:34.589 They like, they will bury a game, a skinned 00:59:34.589 --> 00:59:35.700 game animal in ice. 00:59:36.240 --> 00:59:37.620 And yeah, they're like, Oh, it takes 00:59:37.620 --> 00:59:38.130 all the blood out. 00:59:38.130 --> 00:59:39.000 And like, yes, it does. 00:59:39.089 --> 00:59:41.850 And as long as it's say it's under 40 it's, it's 00:59:42.180 --> 00:59:45.839 food safe, but it results in a very white washed 00:59:45.839 --> 00:59:47.789 out meat that lacks any kind of flavour. 00:59:47.859 --> 00:59:50.640 And if that's what you want, go for it, but most 00:59:50.640 --> 00:59:51.450 people don't like that. 00:59:52.549 --> 00:59:52.790 Okay. 00:59:52.790 --> 00:59:54.740 Well, while we're on the topic, I've 00:59:54.740 --> 00:59:57.740 got another fellow and he says, talking 00:59:57.740 --> 01:00:00.710 about hanging meat, hanging your big game. 01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:06.430 And I always approach it from the sense 01:00:06.470 --> 01:00:09.649 that hanging or aging your meat is an enzyme 01:00:09.649 --> 01:00:11.629 related thing that helps break down the tissue. 01:00:11.660 --> 01:00:12.589 I might be wrong. 01:00:13.009 --> 01:00:15.830 Uh, he approaches it from it's the weight of the 01:00:15.830 --> 01:00:19.730 animal, and that's why you don't hang a lighter 01:00:19.730 --> 01:00:22.580 animal as you would, perhaps a heavier animal. 01:00:22.580 --> 01:00:24.049 The weight will help stretch out 01:00:24.049 --> 01:00:24.660 the tissues and. 01:00:24.660 --> 01:00:25.670 Nah, he's wrong. Help break it down. 01:00:26.029 --> 01:00:26.600 Wrong? 01:00:26.670 --> 01:00:27.540 Wrong. Yeah he's just wrong. 01:00:27.680 --> 01:00:27.890 Okay. 01:00:27.890 --> 01:00:28.730 I have to play this for him. 01:00:29.270 --> 01:00:32.250 Now I'm not saying that there is zero 01:00:32.250 --> 01:00:34.950 mechanical effect of, of, of aging, but that's 01:00:34.950 --> 01:00:35.940 not what aging does. 01:00:35.970 --> 01:00:37.640 Like, no, it's, it enzymatic. 01:00:38.220 --> 01:00:43.920 It's enzymatic and, um, in some ways, I'm 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:45.810 trying to think how I'm trying to make 01:00:45.810 --> 01:00:46.680 him right somehow. 01:00:46.710 --> 01:00:51.060 And if you were to make him right, he's 01:00:51.060 --> 01:00:54.660 kind of, he may be observing an effect that 01:00:54.660 --> 01:00:56.910 he's not, that isn't, that what's going on. 01:00:56.910 --> 01:00:59.450 So, so if you hang a deer, let's say 01:00:59.450 --> 01:01:00.210 it's blacktail. 01:01:00.610 --> 01:01:00.930 Okay. 01:01:00.930 --> 01:01:01.830 Because we're both on the West coast. 01:01:02.340 --> 01:01:03.690 So you're hanging a blacktail in the garage, 01:01:04.560 --> 01:01:07.330 the mechanical effect of hanging that deer in 01:01:07.460 --> 01:01:11.700 a proper temperature, um, we'll just let 01:01:11.700 --> 01:01:12.540 it get through rigor. 01:01:13.935 --> 01:01:15.885 You know, it'll take a day, two days, sometimes, 01:01:15.885 --> 01:01:18.525 sometimes three days to get through rigor mortis. 01:01:19.095 --> 01:01:20.865 And when it gets through rigor mortis, that's, 01:01:21.195 --> 01:01:24.975 that's not mechanical, but the hanging process 01:01:25.095 --> 01:01:28.095 keeps, will keep the deer from like, doing 01:01:28.095 --> 01:01:29.595 this right, to rigor. 01:01:29.985 --> 01:01:32.805 Um, it'll keep everything stretched out, but 01:01:32.805 --> 01:01:36.905 I've, you know, I've put skinned quarters in, 01:01:36.905 --> 01:01:40.185 in a cooler above ice say, it's not touching 01:01:40.185 --> 01:01:40.905 it, but it's cool. 01:01:41.565 --> 01:01:43.035 And they don't curl up. 01:01:43.365 --> 01:01:46.125 So I, no, it's it's, that's a hundred 01:01:46.125 --> 01:01:47.055 percent enzymatic. 01:01:47.985 --> 01:01:51.075 You hope it's not bacterial because, um, 01:01:52.065 --> 01:01:53.115 you, you can get that. 01:01:53.115 --> 01:01:54.945 There's a thing called bone sour with things 01:01:54.945 --> 01:01:55.875 like elk and moose. 01:01:56.085 --> 01:01:56.585 Right. 01:01:56.805 --> 01:01:59.745 Where there's so much heat in the animal that 01:02:00.165 --> 01:02:03.075 even if you skinned it and hung it, um, 01:02:03.135 --> 01:02:05.745 it can still go south, right at the ball joint 01:02:05.745 --> 01:02:06.585 of the hip usually. 01:02:07.485 --> 01:02:10.005 Um, and so typically what you'll want to do 01:02:10.005 --> 01:02:11.985 in a big ass animal, especially if it's 01:02:11.985 --> 01:02:14.365 in a hot weather, is open that meat up. 01:02:15.165 --> 01:02:17.565 So quarterings fine. 01:02:17.865 --> 01:02:20.685 But even then, like, I've seen, I have seen 01:02:21.195 --> 01:02:24.915 the thighs, so the full hindleg haunch 01:02:24.915 --> 01:02:28.065 of a moose or a, or a nilgai, or an elk, 01:02:29.175 --> 01:02:30.285 it'll rot at the bone. 01:02:30.555 --> 01:02:33.015 So what you do then is you, as you take these to 01:02:33.015 --> 01:02:36.165 say, you have a hindleg and you, you make a cut 01:02:36.165 --> 01:02:39.175 from the ball and socket joint, tapping your 01:02:39.195 --> 01:02:41.655 knife on the femur bone all the way to the knee. 01:02:42.375 --> 01:02:44.715 And then just, you can kind of open up that 01:02:44.715 --> 01:02:45.855 meat just a little bit. 01:02:46.095 --> 01:02:48.075 You're going to make that cut anyway to debone the 01:02:48.335 --> 01:02:51.705 leg anyway, but it just adds another angle to 01:02:51.705 --> 01:02:53.865 cool off the interior that may cause that meat, 01:02:53.895 --> 01:02:56.085 because like, you know, it's, you know, can't 01:02:56.085 --> 01:02:57.195 even, it's huge, it's 01:02:57.685 --> 01:02:57.935 It is. 01:02:57.935 --> 01:03:02.925 This thick and it needs time and, and, 01:03:03.134 --> 01:03:05.505 and the ability to cool off very quickly. 01:03:06.105 --> 01:03:08.775 So, but yeah, this is, it's not mechanical. 01:03:08.835 --> 01:03:10.455 It's, it's within the meat. 01:03:10.455 --> 01:03:12.615 Cause you can, you can stick a piece of meat 01:03:13.575 --> 01:03:16.875 on a rack and through enzymatic action 01:03:16.875 --> 01:03:19.665 over the course of several days at 33, 35 01:03:19.665 --> 01:03:22.305 degrees, uh, anything under 40 is okay. 01:03:22.965 --> 01:03:23.465 Okay. 01:03:23.475 --> 01:03:26.745 Um, and it will loosen up and it'll get tender 01:03:27.195 --> 01:03:30.675 now real aging, real aging is 100% enzymatic 01:03:30.675 --> 01:03:32.355 and that's then you're talking three weeks. 01:03:32.655 --> 01:03:33.455 Okay. Minimum. 01:03:33.945 --> 01:03:36.585 So the, the, all of the studies show that if you 01:03:36.615 --> 01:03:38.939 dry age, a piece of meat. 01:03:38.939 --> 01:03:40.709 And by the way, you only dry age things 01:03:40.919 --> 01:03:42.180 that you're going to cook medium rare. 01:03:42.899 --> 01:03:44.430 There is zero reason to dry age, a 01:03:44.430 --> 01:03:45.359 shoulder or a neck. 01:03:45.740 --> 01:03:48.089 You could, it's not going to hurt it, but you, 01:03:48.319 --> 01:03:50.100 you braze those anyway, so what's the point. 01:03:50.549 --> 01:03:53.399 So you, you dry age things like a hind leg 01:03:53.430 --> 01:03:57.569 or the back strap, and nobody can really tell 01:03:57.569 --> 01:03:59.069 the difference between something that's been 01:03:59.069 --> 01:04:00.930 aged like five days and something that's 01:04:00.930 --> 01:04:02.580 been aged 14 days. 01:04:03.180 --> 01:04:05.069 You start to notice once you get to 01:04:05.069 --> 01:04:06.149 be about 20 days. 01:04:06.629 --> 01:04:07.129 Okay. 01:04:07.290 --> 01:04:09.750 So, and in fact it's a, it's a, it's a 01:04:09.750 --> 01:04:10.979 logarithmic curve. 01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:13.799 Like it goes from, eh kind of, to whoop. 01:04:14.115 --> 01:04:18.105 And, and then, um, once you get to be all 01:04:18.675 --> 01:04:21.405 the taste studies that I've read, say three 01:04:21.405 --> 01:04:24.645 weeks the sweet spot for broad acceptance 01:04:24.675 --> 01:04:26.775 in and pleasure ability of eating that 01:04:26.775 --> 01:04:28.125 meat three to four. 01:04:28.545 --> 01:04:30.195 Once you get past four weeks, you start to get 01:04:30.195 --> 01:04:31.425 kind of cheesy notes. 01:04:31.875 --> 01:04:33.285 Um, I don't know if you've ever had 01:04:33.285 --> 01:04:35.775 really super, super, super aged beef. 01:04:36.315 --> 01:04:37.395 Um, but it's cheesy. 01:04:37.395 --> 01:04:37.835 It's sort of. Yeah. 01:04:37.835 --> 01:04:38.455 Blue cheesy. 01:04:38.765 --> 01:04:42.255 Um, and not everybody likes that. 01:04:43.005 --> 01:04:44.025 That's an acquired taste. 01:04:44.435 --> 01:04:44.935 Right. 01:04:45.485 --> 01:04:47.795 So that'd be like a René Redzepi sort of thing. 01:04:47.975 --> 01:04:48.455 Oh yeah, yeah. 01:04:48.455 --> 01:04:49.535 That milk cow that he did. 01:04:49.565 --> 01:04:50.065 Yep. 01:04:50.255 --> 01:04:50.525 No, no. 01:04:50.525 --> 01:04:51.635 I think that was Magnus Nilsson. 01:04:52.145 --> 01:04:53.745 Oh, was it Magnus? 01:04:54.065 --> 01:04:55.115 Yeah, I think it was Magnus who did it. 01:04:55.115 --> 01:04:56.045 Okay. Yeah, that's right. 01:04:56.105 --> 01:04:56.645 That's right. 01:04:57.185 --> 01:05:01.475 So birds, I had one guy say he likes to hang 01:05:01.475 --> 01:05:04.225 his birds until their heads fall off, then 01:05:04.225 --> 01:05:04.805 he knows they're done. 01:05:05.370 --> 01:05:08.029 Stop, stop, stop. 01:05:08.509 --> 01:05:11.759 So you had one guy who says that he does it? 01:05:12.310 --> 01:05:13.250 I've never seen him do it. 01:05:13.759 --> 01:05:15.170 I've never seen him do it. 01:05:15.200 --> 01:05:17.089 He says, Oh yeah, this is how you do it. 01:05:18.109 --> 01:05:18.980 I've never seen him do it. 01:05:19.850 --> 01:05:21.560 Of course you haven't because nobody does. 01:05:21.940 --> 01:05:22.549 Thank you. 01:05:22.569 --> 01:05:23.660 It's a rural myth. 01:05:23.930 --> 01:05:24.440 Thank you. 01:05:24.859 --> 01:05:27.080 As far as I know, this originated in the eternal 01:05:27.080 --> 01:05:28.520 fight between the French and the English, of 01:05:28.520 --> 01:05:30.290 which you Canadians are very aware of. 01:05:32.180 --> 01:05:34.410 So it used to be said by the English, that 01:05:34.450 --> 01:05:35.930 the French would hang their pheasants until 01:05:35.930 --> 01:05:36.589 their heads fell off. 01:05:36.740 --> 01:05:38.120 And it used to be said by the French, in 01:05:38.120 --> 01:05:39.890 French, of course, that the English would hang 01:05:39.890 --> 01:05:41.330 their pheasants until their heads fell off. 01:05:41.690 --> 01:05:42.930 As some sort of denigrating, kind 01:05:42.930 --> 01:05:43.500 of like yeh-he. 01:05:43.500 --> 01:05:44.640 That's right. 01:05:44.690 --> 01:05:47.839 Now that said you do hang, you do hang, um, 01:05:48.319 --> 01:05:49.460 birds quite awhile. 01:05:49.879 --> 01:05:51.770 You know, you can hang them in the 01:05:51.770 --> 01:05:53.779 right conditions for a couple of weeks. 01:05:54.109 --> 01:05:55.790 I don't, because again, you get to 01:05:55.790 --> 01:05:59.299 that high gamey, that sort of cheesy, um, 01:06:00.890 --> 01:06:04.485 funky, really funky aroma that you either 01:06:04.485 --> 01:06:05.065 like, or you don't. 01:06:05.145 --> 01:06:06.015 I like five days. 01:06:07.125 --> 01:06:08.805 Um, five days with the wild pheasants 01:06:08.845 --> 01:06:09.375 are really good. 01:06:10.215 --> 01:06:11.765 That's like the three weeks with, uh, with 01:06:11.775 --> 01:06:12.825 the beef or the venison. 01:06:13.215 --> 01:06:15.135 Five days, under 40 degrees. 01:06:15.465 --> 01:06:15.975 Yes. 01:06:16.155 --> 01:06:17.945 Well, it doesn't have to be under 40 degrees. 01:06:17.975 --> 01:06:20.135 In fact, pheasants, um, and upland game birds. 01:06:20.165 --> 01:06:24.755 And I don't fully understand why, I don't 01:06:24.755 --> 01:06:26.765 fully understand, I need to look into this, but, 01:06:26.795 --> 01:06:30.665 but red meat aging is always done very close 01:06:30.665 --> 01:06:32.255 to freezing and below 40. 01:06:33.485 --> 01:06:35.885 Birds aging, and this is includes things like 01:06:35.885 --> 01:06:36.815 rabbits in England. 01:06:36.815 --> 01:06:38.545 I don't really age rabbits, but well, 01:06:38.545 --> 01:06:41.195 who do they want it just below 60. 01:06:42.005 --> 01:06:46.445 So it's much more similar to the, um, to 01:06:46.445 --> 01:06:47.765 the aging of salami. 01:06:48.155 --> 01:06:51.635 So you don't age salami under 40, or if you do, 01:06:51.635 --> 01:06:55.025 it takes exponentially longer for that salami 01:06:55.025 --> 01:06:57.455 to be worth eating because you don't get 01:06:57.455 --> 01:07:00.875 that ferment, that is bacterial action. 01:07:01.595 --> 01:07:04.890 Um, And so they're, they're, the sweet spot 01:07:04.890 --> 01:07:06.570 in the bird studies because there's been 01:07:06.570 --> 01:07:07.950 a lot of them because they, you can sell 01:07:07.950 --> 01:07:09.630 wild game in, in the United Kingdom. 01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:15.990 Is that 55 is your sweet spot because above 55, 01:07:15.990 --> 01:07:18.520 you start to get listeria bacteria growing. 01:07:18.790 --> 01:07:19.290 Okay. 01:07:19.310 --> 01:07:21.330 And over 60, the listeria kind of take 01:07:21.330 --> 01:07:22.200 over, which is bad. 01:07:22.500 --> 01:07:22.950 Right. 01:07:22.950 --> 01:07:26.310 But this between 50 and 55 is the ideal 01:07:26.340 --> 01:07:29.430 temperature for birds, which I find fascinating 01:07:29.430 --> 01:07:32.340 because it's like 34 or 36 for, for red meat. 01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:33.660 Interesting. 01:07:33.690 --> 01:07:35.850 Not entirely sure why it could be the feathers. 01:07:35.850 --> 01:07:37.890 It could be the, the fact that you're, you're, 01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:40.830 you're aging a bird hole. 01:07:41.520 --> 01:07:43.860 Um, now the caveat to that is you can't age 01:07:43.890 --> 01:07:46.860 a goose or a turkey or something of that size 01:07:47.040 --> 01:07:47.610 without cutting it. 01:07:48.450 --> 01:07:50.760 Um, all the others, you can, you can gut or not. 01:07:51.770 --> 01:07:52.270 Okay. 01:07:52.520 --> 01:07:53.150 And you? 01:07:53.270 --> 01:07:53.780 And I don't. 01:07:54.500 --> 01:07:55.380 You, you don't gut? 01:07:56.090 --> 01:07:58.280 No, because I mean, with a pheasant or a grouse 01:07:58.280 --> 01:08:00.440 or something, I don't, because it is a lot 01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.600 harder to pluck a bird that has been gutted than 01:08:03.600 --> 01:08:06.210 it is a bird that is, where its skin is intact. 01:08:06.830 --> 01:08:07.490 That's a good point. 01:08:07.580 --> 01:08:09.620 And the skin's where all the flavour is. 01:08:09.980 --> 01:08:10.480 Uh, yeah. 01:08:10.759 --> 01:08:11.089 Yeah. 01:08:11.089 --> 01:08:13.580 Like if you're going to age it, you better 01:08:13.580 --> 01:08:14.779 damn well pluck it, cause otherwise, 01:08:15.230 --> 01:08:16.700 why did you just go through that exercise? 01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:17.390 You know. 01:08:17.390 --> 01:08:18.319 A hundred percent. 01:08:19.370 --> 01:08:20.330 Is there anything else that we should 01:08:20.330 --> 01:08:21.890 be talking about about this new book? 01:08:23.059 --> 01:08:26.240 Yeah, I mean, I think I just said super 01:08:26.240 --> 01:08:27.080 excited about it. 01:08:27.080 --> 01:08:29.840 Like it feels like a culmination book, you 01:08:29.840 --> 01:08:33.590 know, it feels like, you know, this is arguably 01:08:33.590 --> 01:08:36.319 the last in this series because we've covered 01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:39.830 the game animals and you know, now efficiency food 01:08:40.399 --> 01:08:44.420 and I'm I'm, I may or may not do a plant book. 01:08:45.200 --> 01:08:46.819 Uh, and if I do do a foraging book, 01:08:46.819 --> 01:08:48.319 I'm not going to step on Sam's toes. 01:08:48.410 --> 01:08:49.790 I'm going to focus on the West coast. 01:08:50.479 --> 01:08:54.899 Um, and it feels kind of like the, the, 01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:57.179 uh, maybe this is the kind, the last of that 01:08:57.300 --> 01:08:59.309 triplet title, you know? 01:08:59.309 --> 01:09:00.809 Cause all my books are like Hunt, Gather, Cook 01:09:00.809 --> 01:09:01.500 and Buck, Buck, Moose. 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:01.990 Right. 01:09:01.990 --> 01:09:02.591 Cottontail. Hook, Line and Supper. 01:09:03.140 --> 01:09:03.640 Yeah. 01:09:03.979 --> 01:09:08.420 Um, I think the cool thing about it is 01:09:08.420 --> 01:09:12.050 that the process of writing this book 01:09:13.189 --> 01:09:13.880 took a lifetime. 01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:17.599 Whereas the others were more of a project. 01:09:17.630 --> 01:09:19.519 This feels a bit more like a memoir. 01:09:20.179 --> 01:09:21.800 There's a lot of personal information in it. 01:09:22.040 --> 01:09:23.149 Uh, there's a lot of stories in it. 01:09:23.149 --> 01:09:24.369 There's fam, my family's in it. 01:09:24.769 --> 01:09:25.189 That's cool. 01:09:25.189 --> 01:09:31.429 Um, and I think the, uh, accessibility of this 01:09:31.429 --> 01:09:33.700 book is exponentially larger, especially in 01:09:33.700 --> 01:09:35.809 the last one because there's only 2 million 01:09:35.870 --> 01:09:38.123 upland, upland hunters in North America and 01:09:38.123 --> 01:09:38.760 that includes Canada. 01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:42.529 Anybody can buy fish and anybody can, anybody, 01:09:42.769 --> 01:09:44.240 you know, can just go to a fish market. 01:09:44.240 --> 01:09:47.240 And so this book is accessible to anybody 01:09:47.240 --> 01:09:49.309 who goes to a fish market as it is to an actual 01:09:49.309 --> 01:09:54.570 angler and it like, it is the first book I 01:09:54.570 --> 01:09:56.879 think I've written where gunfire is not involved. 01:09:59.700 --> 01:10:05.550 So, um, I am really a little nervous, 01:10:05.599 --> 01:10:10.490 definitely excited about, uh, the possibility 01:10:10.490 --> 01:10:12.620 of having a book that is applicable to, 01:10:13.250 --> 01:10:14.839 uh, not just the hook and bullet crowd. 01:10:15.620 --> 01:10:18.139 And, uh, I think the hardest part about 01:10:18.139 --> 01:10:19.519 this is going to be to spread the word. 01:10:20.059 --> 01:10:22.849 So, um, it will, in Canada, it'll be 01:10:22.849 --> 01:10:25.460 available on amazon.ca, but it will also 01:10:25.460 --> 01:10:28.040 be available, um, distributed in regular 01:10:28.040 --> 01:10:31.080 bookstores by Chelsea Green is actually the, 01:10:31.080 --> 01:10:33.650 the, uh, the company that is distributing 01:10:33.650 --> 01:10:35.799 the book in brick and mortar stores all over. 01:10:36.110 --> 01:10:36.360 Okay. 01:10:36.360 --> 01:10:39.469 Um, so you'll be able to get it just like you 01:10:39.469 --> 01:10:41.330 would any other book in Canada and definitely 01:10:41.330 --> 01:10:42.200 United States too. 01:10:42.920 --> 01:10:46.515 And the only thing I, I like, I, this book 01:10:46.515 --> 01:10:48.015 is going to live and die off of whether 01:10:48.015 --> 01:10:48.885 people like it or not. 01:10:48.945 --> 01:10:51.285 And if all I can say is if you get it and you 01:10:51.285 --> 01:10:54.975 like it, tell somebody else, because in this, 01:10:55.035 --> 01:10:57.885 in media environment, the only way that these 01:10:58.335 --> 01:10:59.775 things have any success is through word of 01:10:59.775 --> 01:11:02.085 mouth and through, uh, they call it social 01:11:02.085 --> 01:11:03.705 validation is the actual term is like, 01:11:03.705 --> 01:11:05.485 so, you know, leaving a review on Amazon or. 01:11:05.895 --> 01:11:06.125 Right. 01:11:06.125 --> 01:11:08.315 Or, or social media or that kind of thing. 01:11:08.415 --> 01:11:11.295 And it's, it's daunting. 01:11:11.445 --> 01:11:12.975 It's daunting because here's a book that could 01:11:13.005 --> 01:11:14.615 potentially do very well. 01:11:14.615 --> 01:11:16.275 And because it could help a lot of people 01:11:16.275 --> 01:11:18.405 become better fish cooks, not just anglers 01:11:18.855 --> 01:11:20.685 and, but people have to know it exists. 01:11:21.515 --> 01:11:22.015 Right. 01:11:22.625 --> 01:11:24.635 So get it, read it. 01:11:24.845 --> 01:11:25.205 Yep. 01:11:25.205 --> 01:11:25.725 Leave a review. 01:11:25.725 --> 01:11:26.445 You can pre-order it now. 01:11:26.815 --> 01:11:27.165 What's that? 01:11:27.165 --> 01:11:30.365 You can pre-order it now, it will, um, via either 01:11:30.365 --> 01:11:33.185 through Amazon or through my website, uh, which 01:11:33.185 --> 01:11:35.525 is, which is the easiest way to get to my website 01:11:35.525 --> 01:11:37.335 is HuntGatherCook.com. 01:11:38.025 --> 01:11:38.655 Okay. 01:11:38.685 --> 01:11:41.825 But that just redirects it to Honest-Food.net. 01:11:42.185 --> 01:11:44.285 Hunter Angler Gardener Cook is the name 01:11:44.285 --> 01:11:44.855 of the website. 01:11:45.180 --> 01:11:46.500 That's really the core of what I do. 01:11:46.830 --> 01:11:50.550 I mean, it's, I, I have a pretty strong Instagram 01:11:50.880 --> 01:11:53.580 presence where I'm hunt gather cook on Instagram. 01:11:53.930 --> 01:11:55.380 I, and I that's the social media 01:11:55.380 --> 01:11:56.130 I like the best. 01:11:56.640 --> 01:11:58.800 Um, the website is of course Hunter 01:11:58.800 --> 01:11:59.820 Angler Gardener Cook. 01:12:00.180 --> 01:12:02.520 And then I do run a Facebook group, that's 01:12:02.520 --> 01:12:04.770 a private group called Hunt Gather Cook. 01:12:05.310 --> 01:12:07.080 And it's cool because it's got guys got 01:12:07.080 --> 01:12:12.600 22,000 members now, and it's a no drama group. 01:12:12.660 --> 01:12:15.810 It has everything from, you know, people who 01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.420 really adore the former administration to people 01:12:18.420 --> 01:12:20.550 who really hated their former administration. 01:12:20.550 --> 01:12:21.050 That's awesome. 01:12:21.100 --> 01:12:22.140 And everything in between. 01:12:22.170 --> 01:12:26.520 And this, there's zero politics, there is, um, 01:12:26.830 --> 01:12:29.220 I police it very heavily for that because it's, 01:12:29.220 --> 01:12:31.920 it's important for people to come together over 01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:34.170 what they do share, which is a love of wild food. 01:12:35.265 --> 01:12:36.555 And, you know, you have to answer questions 01:12:36.555 --> 01:12:39.525 to get in so that, um, uh, so I know that 01:12:39.525 --> 01:12:41.415 you're not some weird bot from Indonesia 01:12:41.445 --> 01:12:42.405 or China or wherever. 01:12:43.325 --> 01:12:43.565 Yeah. 01:12:43.565 --> 01:12:45.035 It's a fantastic group actually. 01:12:45.305 --> 01:12:47.165 And you police that, you moderate that 01:12:47.165 --> 01:12:47.945 whole thing yourself? 01:12:48.815 --> 01:12:49.555 Yeah, I am. 01:12:49.555 --> 01:12:50.885 I mostly do all the moderating. 01:12:50.885 --> 01:12:52.475 There's a couple other, my, a couple friends, 01:12:52.475 --> 01:12:53.795 a guy named Sean and a guy named Christian 01:12:54.155 --> 01:12:54.755 who help me out. 01:12:56.525 --> 01:12:57.095 Very cool. 01:12:57.575 --> 01:13:01.415 Well, Hank, thank you very much for coming on 01:13:01.425 --> 01:13:02.615 The Silvercore Podcast. 01:13:02.615 --> 01:13:04.535 As usual, it was a pleasure 01:13:04.565 --> 01:13:05.315 speaking with you. 01:13:05.705 --> 01:13:06.205 Always. 01:13:06.215 --> 01:13:07.565 I can't wait to get to Canada. 01:13:07.845 --> 01:13:08.975 Someday you'll let us back in. 01:13:09.875 --> 01:13:11.514 Soon, soon, it's happening soon. 01:13:11.905 --> 01:13:12.434 Is it? 01:13:12.434 --> 01:13:14.065 They actually have plans for that? 01:13:14.245 --> 01:13:14.865 Ah they say. 01:13:15.265 --> 01:13:16.115 Ah yeah they say. 01:13:16.344 --> 01:13:17.024 They said that you're going to 01:13:17.045 --> 01:13:17.795 get a vaccine too. 01:13:17.985 --> 01:13:19.165 Yeah they said that too, yeah. 01:13:19.165 --> 01:13:21.605 Well, they say 4th of July or no, you guys 01:13:21.605 --> 01:13:23.195 said that, 4th of July, the borders are opening. 01:13:23.985 --> 01:13:24.605 Oh really? 01:13:24.690 --> 01:13:27.330 That's what the, that's what we saw brandin 01:13:27.370 --> 01:13:27.650 around in there. 01:13:27.650 --> 01:13:28.530 That goes well for the hunting season. 01:13:28.770 --> 01:13:29.370 It does. 01:13:29.460 --> 01:13:29.960 It does. 01:13:31.490 --> 01:13:31.820 Yeah. 01:13:31.820 --> 01:13:38.820 Thanks Hank. 01:13:38.820 --> 01:13:42.480 Yeah. Thanks for having me on.