WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:04.359 --> 00:00:05.789 CJ: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:05.789 --> 00:00:06.669 My name is CJ. 00:00:06.774 --> 00:00:10.335 Colin: And I'm Colin and this week I thought we could chat 00:00:10.335 --> 00:00:12.075 a little bit about learning. 00:00:12.255 --> 00:00:15.925 we'll talk about the second part of the build and learn, as it's 00:00:16.075 --> 00:00:19.395 been something that we've been both learning a lot of new things lately. 00:00:19.745 --> 00:00:21.095 So we'll dig into that. 00:00:21.335 --> 00:00:24.255 But first we have some fitness check ins to do. 00:00:25.515 --> 00:00:26.305 How's that going? 00:00:27.810 --> 00:00:30.100 CJ: I think the accountability thing has actually been going really well. 00:00:30.520 --> 00:00:30.750 Right. 00:00:30.750 --> 00:00:35.610 We have this Facebook group of dads who send each other pictures of their food. 00:00:35.630 --> 00:00:38.790 I feel like, you know, early Instagram days where everyone 00:00:38.790 --> 00:00:41.360 was just taking pictures of their food and posting it online. 00:00:41.400 --> 00:00:47.110 It feels very much like that, but, it's been really good at making sure that I. 00:00:47.785 --> 00:00:53.375 I'm eating healthy because I'm not going to, if I eat like a donut or 00:00:53.425 --> 00:01:00.045 muffin or ice cream, then I definitely feel guilty about it because yeah, I 00:01:00.045 --> 00:01:02.895 have to take a picture of it and send it to them and be like, I ate this. 00:01:03.335 --> 00:01:05.405 so it's like literally everything you're putting in your mouth, you take 00:01:05.405 --> 00:01:06.375 a picture and you send it to them. 00:01:06.505 --> 00:01:07.365 Sometimes it's hard. 00:01:07.395 --> 00:01:09.965 And I'll take a picture of my half empty plate and send it. 00:01:10.315 --> 00:01:16.215 But, It has been, yeah, I've been learning a lot in the fitness realm about 00:01:16.715 --> 00:01:21.285 vitamins and supplements and like all of this stuff for, trying to balance, 00:01:21.725 --> 00:01:26.495 different hormones and try to like, recover quicker and feel less sore. 00:01:26.495 --> 00:01:29.005 And, we've been exercising a ton just for. 00:01:29.205 --> 00:01:32.435 I don't know, a ton for us is like 90 minutes a day. 00:01:32.795 --> 00:01:36.095 I mean, I think I saw some video of you just like running through the 00:01:36.095 --> 00:01:38.875 mountains, like across these Sierra Nevada, Sierra Nevada mountain ridgetops. 00:01:40.805 --> 00:01:41.845 Just no problem. 00:01:41.845 --> 00:01:43.275 Colin's out for a 10 mile run. 00:01:43.275 --> 00:01:47.635 And I'm in my house on my little stationary bike riding 45 minutes and 00:01:48.165 --> 00:01:49.645 feeling like I got a good workout. 00:01:49.645 --> 00:01:49.925 But, 00:01:50.245 --> 00:01:50.925 Colin: all counts. 00:01:50.925 --> 00:01:51.595 It all counts. 00:01:51.645 --> 00:01:53.025 that was an exception for me. 00:01:53.025 --> 00:01:55.085 I don't normally go out and do that, but that was 00:01:55.190 --> 00:01:55.910 CJ: where were you? 00:01:55.910 --> 00:01:56.540 What was that? 00:01:56.650 --> 00:01:56.860 Yeah. 00:01:56.860 --> 00:01:57.590 Tell me the story. 00:01:57.590 --> 00:01:58.230 What, like. 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:00.950 Colin: Yeah, that was three and a half hours. 00:02:00.970 --> 00:02:03.610 That was, from, that was Mount Rose summit. 00:02:04.540 --> 00:02:09.910 So it was like 12 miles, I think, but very, very, a lot of vertical climbing. 00:02:10.265 --> 00:02:10.715 CJ: Yeah. 00:02:10.935 --> 00:02:12.365 Colin's being humble right now. 00:02:12.665 --> 00:02:15.855 Go check out his Instagram and there's, or it, was it a story? 00:02:15.875 --> 00:02:16.195 Cause it 00:02:16.230 --> 00:02:20.440 Colin: I think it was a story, but no, I mean, I hadn't done this since like 2019. 00:02:20.460 --> 00:02:22.630 So I was destroyed after this. 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.850 I can just barely walk normally again today. 00:02:25.850 --> 00:02:28.910 So I don't recommend like you should definitely ease into these things. 00:02:28.910 --> 00:02:31.280 And honestly, I don't do 90 minutes a day. 00:02:31.310 --> 00:02:34.200 that's like back to our last episodes, like. 00:02:34.715 --> 00:02:38.945 Consistency trumps like these big like herculean things. 00:02:38.945 --> 00:02:43.505 So I'd probably be better at doing the 90th day and not do something, 00:02:43.515 --> 00:02:46.535 hurt myself, do something, be too sore to do anything else. 00:02:47.035 --> 00:02:50.915 but yeah, my friend was like super well trained up for a bunch of trail runs and I 00:02:50.915 --> 00:02:52.235 thought I would be able to hang with him. 00:02:52.785 --> 00:02:57.065 and I, I kind of did, he, he finished a good half an hour before I did. 00:02:57.595 --> 00:02:57.995 but. 00:02:58.220 --> 00:02:59.590 Yeah, it was, it was fun. 00:02:59.710 --> 00:03:01.370 But I think, it's good that you're getting out there. 00:03:01.370 --> 00:03:06.530 The, the Hackers Incorporated podcast with Ben and Adam, they just did a fitness 00:03:06.530 --> 00:03:12.840 episode and Adam really extolled the like, how well just taking pictures of 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:14.610 your, what you're eating and sending it. 00:03:14.620 --> 00:03:18.360 Like he has a, he has an app that he pays every month for that. 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.680 I think it's like 300 bucks a month for my body tutor. 00:03:22.145 --> 00:03:22.965 and they're checking in. 00:03:22.965 --> 00:03:23.935 It's accountability. 00:03:23.935 --> 00:03:24.695 It's mindset. 00:03:24.695 --> 00:03:29.425 It's, uh, you know, did you, what's, what are you grateful for gratitude, 00:03:30.075 --> 00:03:34.425 you know, and, and they really, he did focus a lot on, I would definitely 00:03:34.425 --> 00:03:35.765 recommend people check out the episode. 00:03:36.085 --> 00:03:39.735 I think they get a little, the opposite of body positivity. 00:03:39.975 --> 00:03:42.635 It's a little bit hard to listen to some of that episode just 00:03:42.635 --> 00:03:47.235 because a little fitness bro toxic, I think, but, like, yeah. 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:51.000 You know, listening to this, I don't think everyone who's listening needs 00:03:51.450 --> 00:03:54.990 to lose weight and needs to have this, we know that life comes at 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:57.830 you hard, that you've, people have got kids, people have got work. 00:03:58.650 --> 00:04:03.525 For me, it comes from a place of, sitting, Is the new smoking and like the amount 00:04:03.525 --> 00:04:04.815 of time we sit in front of computers. 00:04:04.825 --> 00:04:08.285 It's like awesome that we get to do this, but I also need to balance it 00:04:08.285 --> 00:04:12.355 with just being healthy and, being able to, play with my niece and run 00:04:12.355 --> 00:04:16.065 around and not bend over, get off the couch and not be able to move. 00:04:16.135 --> 00:04:17.385 so I would. 00:04:17.755 --> 00:04:18.245 Check it out. 00:04:18.275 --> 00:04:20.785 Obviously take some of the things that Adam says. 00:04:20.825 --> 00:04:22.785 I understand how he got there. 00:04:23.175 --> 00:04:26.815 I understand he's wanted to do this for a long time and probably had 00:04:26.815 --> 00:04:30.645 some, some negative self talk and things like that built up around it. 00:04:30.645 --> 00:04:33.685 But, I would just say like, we're not coming from that place necessarily. 00:04:33.735 --> 00:04:36.305 I think everyone has a goal that they want and that's fine. 00:04:36.305 --> 00:04:37.325 There's nothing wrong with that. 00:04:37.325 --> 00:04:40.925 But, we all don't have to look like, actors and actresses 00:04:40.925 --> 00:04:42.905 who get paid to look that way. 00:04:43.860 --> 00:04:44.320 CJ: Right. 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.800 Do you, so like along the lines of learning about fitness, do you, 00:04:47.820 --> 00:04:51.290 are you still sort of learning or are you mostly no, I know this, the 00:04:51.290 --> 00:04:55.180 several sports that I'm into and I participate in those on a certain 00:04:55.200 --> 00:04:56.780 frequency and that makes you feel good. 00:04:56.780 --> 00:04:58.650 Or do you seek out. 00:04:59.260 --> 00:05:04.330 like articles to help you improve with certain things or what's your current 00:05:04.340 --> 00:05:06.290 setup for your fitness lifestyle? 00:05:06.915 --> 00:05:09.315 Colin: Yeah, I think this is one of those things where you can learn and learn and 00:05:09.315 --> 00:05:11.125 learn, but then you just have to do it. 00:05:11.155 --> 00:05:16.585 So like I have an Instagram folder that I save fitness stuff into and it's 00:05:16.585 --> 00:05:18.815 like routines and all these things. 00:05:18.815 --> 00:05:21.965 But the problem is there's more things in there than I do. 00:05:22.455 --> 00:05:25.905 And if I just stuck with one of them, you're going to see results. 00:05:25.925 --> 00:05:28.125 And so like, usually I just run. 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:32.720 but I have a really light like kettlebell setup at home, and more 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:37.570 like body weight, a little bit of kettlebells, like calisthenics stuff just 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:39.290 because . I don't have a gym membership. 00:05:39.290 --> 00:05:41.910 I don't have a set of weights at home or anything like that. 00:05:42.595 --> 00:05:45.155 and I think actually Adam focused on that too, like everyone who wants 00:05:45.155 --> 00:05:49.405 to focus on macros is like that's only really going to make a big 00:05:49.405 --> 00:05:53.475 difference if you're like training for competition or something, versus 00:05:53.525 --> 00:05:59.240 if you focus on calories and movement and protein specifically, like that's 00:05:59.250 --> 00:06:01.040 most of what you need to think about. 00:06:01.570 --> 00:06:06.630 so again, back to the consistency, like you can read and learn all the things, 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:08.790 but at some point you just gotta do one. 00:06:10.260 --> 00:06:10.840 CJ: Definitely. 00:06:11.090 --> 00:06:11.650 Colin: What about you? 00:06:12.510 --> 00:06:14.560 CJ: I am still learning a ton. 00:06:14.610 --> 00:06:18.100 I think, my wife, Nicole and I were just talking about this, how we 00:06:18.100 --> 00:06:21.820 took this nutrition class in college and, paid very little attention. 00:06:21.830 --> 00:06:25.400 But, one of the things that we learned was how. 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:29.710 Calories are measured for a certain food. 00:06:30.100 --> 00:06:33.160 And like right now you can go on my fitness pal. 00:06:33.170 --> 00:06:36.270 There's like tons of databases that you can basically look up any food and it'll 00:06:36.270 --> 00:06:41.070 tell you like roughly here's how many, calories are in this food and it'll 00:06:41.070 --> 00:06:45.450 break down the macros between fats and, proteins and carbohydrates or whatever. 00:06:45.450 --> 00:06:50.050 But, I, there were some foods where I was like, Oh, this is totally homemade. 00:06:50.290 --> 00:06:53.090 Whatever pasta or cookies or, lasagna. 00:06:53.090 --> 00:06:54.950 And I'm like, how the heck do you measure this? 00:06:55.390 --> 00:06:59.810 and so one of the rabbit holes I went down this week was like looking up 00:07:00.170 --> 00:07:04.350 this device called a bomb calorimeter, which is like this thing where you you. 00:07:04.545 --> 00:07:05.895 Put the food inside of it. 00:07:05.895 --> 00:07:10.405 And then it like burns the food and I don't know exactly all the details 00:07:10.405 --> 00:07:13.025 are, above my head in terms of the science of it, but it basically 00:07:13.025 --> 00:07:16.695 tries to figure out really accurately how many calories are in the thing. 00:07:17.095 --> 00:07:20.475 And, calorie coming back is just like a unit of energy. 00:07:20.755 --> 00:07:24.275 And I thought that was like a fun little rabbit hole, but yeah, I 00:07:24.275 --> 00:07:25.745 feel like I'm constantly learning. 00:07:25.745 --> 00:07:30.715 And this week I had my like annual physical with the doctor and did 00:07:30.715 --> 00:07:34.965 some blood work and, cholesterol and everything like looks amazing 00:07:34.975 --> 00:07:37.085 compared to last year when I did it. 00:07:37.710 --> 00:07:41.060 And we were talking about it, I wish we could do this, like every month, 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:44.370 get a, get blood drawn like every single month because I feel like, 00:07:45.080 --> 00:07:48.330 yeah, it looks great now, but it's only probably only because I've been working 00:07:48.330 --> 00:07:50.450 out hard for a month, you know, and, 00:07:51.290 --> 00:07:53.890 Colin: Well, and it's like, what's the granularity of your data? 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:58.100 we're looking, it's like trying to fly a plane and you get data every hour. 00:07:58.120 --> 00:07:59.840 that would be bad, right? 00:07:59.840 --> 00:08:01.370 Why don't we get this every month? 00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:03.360 And obviously, healthcare is not cheap. 00:08:03.370 --> 00:08:05.280 Healthcare is not accessible to everybody. 00:08:05.880 --> 00:08:07.180 I rant about that a lot. 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:10.100 Like the Whoop device that I use, I pay for that. 00:08:10.535 --> 00:08:14.915 Every month to have, because it's more of like my check engine light. 00:08:14.955 --> 00:08:18.845 I think we've mentioned this before of, I know every day, like if 00:08:18.845 --> 00:08:21.555 something's off, it's not necessarily like it's fitness related, but 00:08:21.555 --> 00:08:25.005 it's not necessarily like diet and exercise and those kinds of things. 00:08:25.005 --> 00:08:28.645 It's more of like stress and how well recovered are you and 00:08:29.095 --> 00:08:30.400 how much did you strain today? 00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:35.255 But yeah, having your like glucose levels, your blood, reports every month would 00:08:35.265 --> 00:08:40.170 be amazing to have that because then you can also look and see like, How stress. 00:08:40.755 --> 00:08:42.845 You know affecting that stuff as well 00:08:43.905 --> 00:08:44.645 CJ: yeah, totally. 00:08:45.865 --> 00:08:48.515 Before we get into more details about what we're learning about, 00:08:48.715 --> 00:08:49.985 what are you, what are you building? 00:08:49.985 --> 00:08:52.165 How's your, calendaring app going? 00:08:53.315 --> 00:08:56.585 Colin: Yeah, I guess I guess this is a good time capsule for the 00:08:56.585 --> 00:08:59.275 calendar app That's going well. 00:08:59.365 --> 00:09:03.455 I actually did a demo of it today for the team's that was fun But I'm 00:09:03.675 --> 00:09:05.505 getting pulled off on to something else. 00:09:05.535 --> 00:09:11.430 We have we have one virtual machine running on an older host that the 00:09:11.430 --> 00:09:15.110 company has had since Discord started and they want to get rid of it. 00:09:15.560 --> 00:09:16.950 It's like the last server. 00:09:16.950 --> 00:09:22.180 So my new job is to get the app off of that server and onto Google cloud. 00:09:22.230 --> 00:09:25.780 So I got to do that next week so we can finally kill. 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.000 It's actually DigitalOcean, which I enjoy DigitalOcean, but it's, 00:09:29.590 --> 00:09:31.140 we just have one server there. 00:09:31.140 --> 00:09:32.130 So we're going to get rid of that. 00:09:32.760 --> 00:09:36.100 so learning a little bit more, like more DevOps y stuff again. 00:09:36.130 --> 00:09:40.480 Just, it's I have to relearn it every time I go back to it, but yeah, that's 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:42.150 all I'm really focused on right now. 00:09:42.150 --> 00:09:42.620 How about you? 00:09:43.095 --> 00:09:43.625 CJ: Very cool. 00:09:44.570 --> 00:09:46.850 We are, we're building all kinds of stuff. 00:09:46.880 --> 00:09:54.310 I'm starting to get real adoption for our like internal tool for managing 00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:56.510 the paint business operations. 00:09:56.590 --> 00:10:01.290 And this week I'm focused on, sending out a bunch of transactional emails 00:10:01.290 --> 00:10:02.780 that happen along the process. 00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:03.960 before someone. 00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:05.840 Has their place painted. 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.420 We want to ask them if they have preferences about, you know, where 00:10:09.420 --> 00:10:13.510 we park and what door codes to use and like how to get in, how 00:10:13.510 --> 00:10:15.350 to get out and things like that. 00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:19.550 And so those types of emails, I. 00:10:19.970 --> 00:10:25.720 In the past have all really enjoyed putting in like open click tracking and 00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:28.910 trying to make, make sure that you, not only are we sending these outbound emails, 00:10:28.910 --> 00:10:32.340 but we know, are they being delivered when they're being delivered, when they're 00:10:32.340 --> 00:10:34.040 being opened, when they're being actioned? 00:10:34.510 --> 00:10:39.510 The way that I've done that in the past is most email providers let you set a header 00:10:39.530 --> 00:10:41.870 in the email when you're sending it. 00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:46.500 And then they also often will provide a webhook for different events that 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:49.330 happen along the cycle of that email. 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:53.930 And so with SendGrid, you can send one header that's like this big JSON blob. 00:10:54.770 --> 00:10:57.980 We are using an email service provider called Resend. 00:10:58.160 --> 00:11:01.100 That, lets you just send arbitrary headers. 00:11:01.140 --> 00:11:04.540 So we send over headers that include this is the idea of the project and 00:11:04.540 --> 00:11:07.590 the idea of the estimate and the idea of the recipient in the headers. 00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:12.200 And then in the webhook, we say, we store off the message and say okay, 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:14.410 this, yeah, this message was opened and. 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:17.960 If it's, something that needs approval, if they clicked on the link, then 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:19.710 we, we're tracking all that stuff. 00:11:19.710 --> 00:11:22.050 So that's been interesting to track down. 00:11:22.450 --> 00:11:27.590 There's this thing inside of rails where I thought that the return 00:11:27.590 --> 00:11:31.700 value from the mail method inside of a mailer would give you back some 00:11:31.700 --> 00:11:36.310 object that was like the response from the API from the mail service. 00:11:36.330 --> 00:11:39.150 But, what I discovered was that. 00:11:39.645 --> 00:11:42.705 That doesn't really give you back the thing that you want and it's all async. 00:11:42.725 --> 00:11:47.085 And so the way that you can handle it is by, putting in an observer. 00:11:47.105 --> 00:11:51.965 So in an initializer inside of rails, you can create a class that is 00:11:51.965 --> 00:11:58.115 registered as an observer on active mailer base, and that can have. 00:11:58.475 --> 00:12:02.845 Like certain class methods that are called within the life cycle of mail being sent. 00:12:03.305 --> 00:12:06.315 And within there, you can check to see Oh, was the message delivered? 00:12:06.315 --> 00:12:08.705 And if so, you get like stuff about the message. 00:12:08.705 --> 00:12:14.045 So like the ID from the third party that identifies that message so that you can 00:12:14.095 --> 00:12:15.885 . Store in your own database. 00:12:15.935 --> 00:12:21.075 This was an outbound transactional email and then tie back all 00:12:21.075 --> 00:12:22.195 these events to that thing. 00:12:22.245 --> 00:12:24.945 working on that, it's been pretty fun to build out. 00:12:25.045 --> 00:12:26.745 and yeah, still. 00:12:27.150 --> 00:12:28.510 Playing around with Twilio. 00:12:28.510 --> 00:12:31.510 So we'll have to talk about that in more detail when we get there. 00:12:31.510 --> 00:12:31.760 But, 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:37.410 Colin: Are you guys using anything similar to a segment type of tool? 00:12:38.075 --> 00:12:44.025 CJ: not yet we're, yeah, we're building all of the evented stuff internally. 00:12:44.175 --> 00:12:49.225 so we're just, we actually were using your webhook stuff that you 00:12:49.225 --> 00:12:50.875 talked about at RailsConf with Chris. 00:12:50.885 --> 00:12:55.055 So inside of jumpstart, there is an inbound webhook thing and 00:12:55.055 --> 00:12:58.675 there's some command where you can just say rails G inbound webhook. 00:12:58.895 --> 00:13:01.745 Service and it spins up your inbound webhook. 00:13:01.845 --> 00:13:03.515 There's a couple of things I added to it. 00:13:04.595 --> 00:13:05.645 but that's been killer. 00:13:05.725 --> 00:13:09.525 uh, the, Oh, the other thing that's been really killer from jumpstart is you can 00:13:09.525 --> 00:13:14.935 say rails G API API client, and then you just say, boom, here's the third party, 00:13:15.195 --> 00:13:20.345 and then it's, it like scaffolds out like the class that you would probably build. 00:13:20.395 --> 00:13:23.575 What are these headers and what's the base URL and what's a get and 00:13:23.575 --> 00:13:24.855 what's a post and what's a whatever. 00:13:25.135 --> 00:13:28.355 And then you can just get down to the business of writing your method that 00:13:28.355 --> 00:13:34.315 fetches the list of locations or, yeah, I'm using the Google places API to geo 00:13:34.315 --> 00:13:39.735 code and then we're using the directions API to send the address of the office. 00:13:39.735 --> 00:13:43.465 And here's the address of the client's house so that we know like how many 00:13:43.465 --> 00:13:45.835 minutes in drive time is it to that place? 00:13:46.205 --> 00:13:49.045 Because we might reject a project if it's too far away. 00:13:49.445 --> 00:13:50.005 Colin: Interesting. 00:13:50.510 --> 00:13:51.470 CJ: yeah, it's been, 00:13:51.715 --> 00:13:57.405 Colin: So if you could just, that Rails generate API needs like, open API spec and 00:13:57.405 --> 00:14:01.695 a little, little GPT magic in there and it could just figure it all out for you. 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:05.020 CJ: Yeah, Mike, I think is going down the route of exploring 00:14:05.070 --> 00:14:06.320 how we might do open API, 00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:09.440 Colin: It's one of those things like once the client's built, 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:10.690 you really don't need it. 00:14:10.700 --> 00:14:14.940 So it's a little gimmicky, but like, you know, uh, end points you need. 00:14:15.300 --> 00:14:16.330 From Google places. 00:14:16.340 --> 00:14:19.120 So it's nice to just be like, okay, here's my class. 00:14:19.920 --> 00:14:20.930 Here's my end point. 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:25.090 But if you end up integrating with a bunch of things, like that was kind of the 00:14:25.090 --> 00:14:30.290 dream with cloud snap, or there's a bunch of tools today that I don't know if the 00:14:30.290 --> 00:14:36.305 market's like fully embracing the idea of paying a company to be like even segment. 00:14:37.025 --> 00:14:39.915 It's an expensive way of sending your data to a bunch of places. 00:14:39.915 --> 00:14:44.175 Like segment itself does not do much, like it does a lot, but it 00:14:44.175 --> 00:14:45.875 doesn't let you see your data. 00:14:45.875 --> 00:14:49.835 You got to send it to somewhere else so that you can see that user journey 00:14:49.835 --> 00:14:51.535 and amplitude or something like that. 00:14:53.265 --> 00:14:53.625 CJ: Yeah. 00:14:53.745 --> 00:14:57.845 Right now, a lot of this stuff is being built in house, but I think as we grow 00:14:58.225 --> 00:15:04.355 and we want to sort of unlock stuff for non technical teams, Oh, if you want to 00:15:04.355 --> 00:15:07.885 use Zapier to do something really fancy. 00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:10.840 With your entire team and we don't have time to build it. 00:15:11.190 --> 00:15:14.810 Maybe we'll build a Zapier integration that just hooks into all of our 00:15:14.860 --> 00:15:17.980 evented life cycle, like event life cycles for projects and things. 00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:21.970 But for now, we're just building everything as fast as we can natively. 00:15:21.970 --> 00:15:26.080 And then integrating with the third parties that we need data from, or we're 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:27.820 sending data to, and that's kind of it. 00:15:28.040 --> 00:15:28.440 So 00:15:29.830 --> 00:15:33.280 Colin: yeah, I find that usually to be better, so that's good. 00:15:34.850 --> 00:15:35.390 CJ: Very cool. 00:15:37.250 --> 00:15:38.900 What are you learning this week? 00:15:39.970 --> 00:15:44.320 Colin: Yeah, so the topic of learning for this week's episode, when we 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.550 were putting together the show notes, I have been putting this on 00:15:47.550 --> 00:15:49.420 our list to talk to for a few weeks. 00:15:49.880 --> 00:15:52.220 and it's a tool, more of a framework called Diataxis. 00:15:54.220 --> 00:15:56.310 and the website is diataxis. 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:57.000 fr. 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.410 We'll put a link for it in the show notes because it's a, 00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:01.090 it's an interesting spelling. 00:16:01.140 --> 00:16:07.440 but it's a way of like organizing your way of thinking about documentation. 00:16:07.880 --> 00:16:11.580 And so the why I thought this might be interesting is for us to talk about like 00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:17.440 how we learn things because what this framework gives us is four different ways 00:16:17.550 --> 00:16:20.050 of organizing different kinds of content. 00:16:20.070 --> 00:16:22.120 And, obviously you're no stranger to this. 00:16:22.310 --> 00:16:26.440 At Stripe, but there's different ways of displaying things like 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:28.260 you have an API reference. 00:16:28.540 --> 00:16:30.690 The reference itself like doesn't teach you anything. 00:16:30.710 --> 00:16:36.050 Like when I end up on the Ruby on Rails or like a pure Ruby like method doc 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:38.340 page, I'm like, what am I looking at? 00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:41.780 If I've never called that thing before, like even learning 00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:43.880 how to read a reference doc. 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:47.760 is a skill because you, it looks like Greek. 00:16:48.160 --> 00:16:50.780 like even if you know the language, you're like, I don't know what all 00:16:50.780 --> 00:16:54.800 these things are that this function takes or this class, represents. 00:16:54.810 --> 00:16:59.030 so it breaks it down into four areas, which is tutorials, how to 00:16:59.030 --> 00:17:01.410 guides, explanation, and reference. 00:17:01.890 --> 00:17:03.980 And those first two kind of sound. 00:17:04.010 --> 00:17:07.830 It's very, very similar, but, and I'm not going to give a full rundown of 00:17:07.830 --> 00:17:11.680 like what all the differences are, but if you're interested in being able to 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.500 organize this, if you're working on your own docs, if you're working on 00:17:15.020 --> 00:17:19.450 even thinking about yeah, I need, oh, that's reference, that's how to guide. 00:17:19.930 --> 00:17:22.730 it's pretty clarifying, like we're going through and I think most 00:17:22.730 --> 00:17:25.740 people are like, Oh, a tutorial and a how to guide are the same thing. 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.150 But a how to guide would be like very, very specific. 00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:31.720 Like some of the stuff you're doing with this email stuff, it's like, 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:34.190 this is the guide for click tracking. 00:17:35.770 --> 00:17:36.880 Nothing else, right? 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:38.630 It, it, it's goal oriented. 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.120 It's not like you already know how to code, you already know how to 00:17:42.120 --> 00:17:45.620 send an email, but you had this very real world specific example. 00:17:45.620 --> 00:17:49.020 Whereas a tutorial is more like, we're going to build our first bot today. 00:17:49.270 --> 00:17:52.630 And through those processes, you're going to learn all the things you need to know 00:17:52.630 --> 00:17:55.030 about the ecosystem, of building a bot. 00:17:55.260 --> 00:17:57.790 And we're not going to talk about hosting, we're not going to talk 00:17:57.800 --> 00:18:01.270 about all these different things that should be how to guides instead. 00:18:03.150 --> 00:18:03.640 CJ: Got it. 00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:09.130 Yeah, this is really useful for kind of organizing different styles 00:18:09.140 --> 00:18:11.920 of tutorials and documentation. 00:18:11.970 --> 00:18:14.460 I just said tutorials, but I meant yeah, documentation and 00:18:14.470 --> 00:18:16.110 it's, it gets so conflated. 00:18:16.110 --> 00:18:17.500 And I do remember we had. 00:18:18.645 --> 00:18:23.615 really not heated arguments, but we had many discussions that were 00:18:23.615 --> 00:18:30.725 very passionate at Stripe about what belongs where, because when I joined 00:18:30.725 --> 00:18:32.235 in 2019, if you went to stripe. 00:18:32.375 --> 00:18:35.525 com slash docs, these are the docs for developers. 00:18:35.665 --> 00:18:39.025 If you're not a software developer, then you should probably go read 00:18:39.025 --> 00:18:42.505 something else and otherwise this is for you teaching you how to integrate. 00:18:42.845 --> 00:18:47.435 But over time, as Stripe released products that moved up the stack from developer 00:18:47.435 --> 00:18:50.765 to no coder, to if you were technical, you can wire stuff up and get it going. 00:18:51.585 --> 00:18:57.605 We had to evolve that docs content to support lots of different personas. 00:18:57.645 --> 00:19:01.825 And that became really challenging because people would come in, find 00:19:01.825 --> 00:19:03.500 some of what they were looking for. 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.520 But either it wasn't using the dashboard and at some point just expected you to 00:19:08.520 --> 00:19:11.040 start making API calls or vice versa. 00:19:11.370 --> 00:19:16.090 And a lot of times in the CSAT comments that we would get that people would 00:19:16.090 --> 00:19:20.300 submit at the bottom, it would be like, I'm not a techie programmer. 00:19:20.310 --> 00:19:21.000 What is this? 00:19:21.020 --> 00:19:21.780 Blah, blah, blah. 00:19:22.040 --> 00:19:24.840 It's Oh, actually, like these docs were meant for developers. 00:19:24.840 --> 00:19:26.110 They're not like for non. 00:19:26.490 --> 00:19:27.050 Developers. 00:19:27.050 --> 00:19:31.350 And so we had another section that was like the knowledge base and that was 00:19:31.350 --> 00:19:32.440 kind of like in the support center. 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.850 And this is, you know, how do I send an invoice from the Stripe dashboard? 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:37.540 And that was a completely separate thing. 00:19:38.030 --> 00:19:38.700 And then. 00:19:39.090 --> 00:19:41.800 similarly, we have like several different references. 00:19:41.810 --> 00:19:47.540 There's like the API reference for the HTTP, rest API. 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:53.390 Then there was a reference for Stripe JS, which is the like front end JavaScript 00:19:53.390 --> 00:19:57.420 SDK, then there was another reference for the Stripe CLI, which is the command 00:19:57.420 --> 00:19:59.300 line interface that uses all this stuff. 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.820 So figuring out where all those things live within the Stripe docs 00:20:02.830 --> 00:20:07.060 was always a challenge and I like this sort of organization and breakdown. 00:20:07.510 --> 00:20:13.210 So does this Diataxis thing, does it tell you, is it more like a way to figure out 00:20:13.230 --> 00:20:14.970 how you should organize your own content? 00:20:15.030 --> 00:20:18.610 Colin: Yeah, it's more of a loose guideline for being able to talk to 00:20:18.610 --> 00:20:22.160 your team without just like those heated arguments you have a thing to, 00:20:22.270 --> 00:20:29.275 to, Point to, and so there's like an axis of practical to theoretical and 00:20:29.275 --> 00:20:32.895 then learning and goals basically. 00:20:32.895 --> 00:20:37.805 So like outcomes are like how to guides and reference learning 00:20:37.815 --> 00:20:38.985 is more of the tutorial. 00:20:38.985 --> 00:20:40.705 And then maybe you might have an explanation. 00:20:40.715 --> 00:20:44.995 So explanations might be like, like we have a web socket gateway, right? 00:20:45.285 --> 00:20:47.895 You might just want to have a why, what, when. 00:20:48.125 --> 00:20:51.185 And how does the gateway work and why do we use WebSockets? 00:20:51.565 --> 00:20:53.875 It's to deepen your understanding. 00:20:53.875 --> 00:20:57.165 You don't need to know all of the things about the gateway to use it, 00:20:57.175 --> 00:21:00.655 but you eventually will want to deepen your knowledge so that you can use 00:21:00.655 --> 00:21:04.325 it in ways that like, you're like, Oh, I wonder if I could do this. 00:21:04.335 --> 00:21:05.255 And you're like, yeah, you can. 00:21:05.675 --> 00:21:09.235 the being able to send an invoice is a great example because you're right. 00:21:09.245 --> 00:21:10.745 Someone as an end user might. 00:21:10.950 --> 00:21:14.690 have land on a page and they want to just know how to do it from the UI. 00:21:15.550 --> 00:21:16.900 How do you do it in the rest API? 00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:18.380 How do you do it in the SDKs? 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.950 Like, those are all different things that you're going to get hits on. 00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:24.550 And part of learning and as a developer, it's like deciphering what 00:21:24.590 --> 00:21:27.730 page you landed on to see if it's the right thing you're looking for. 00:21:28.220 --> 00:21:28.710 and. 00:21:29.050 --> 00:21:30.220 We can try to help. 00:21:30.250 --> 00:21:34.530 I think Cloudflare, Cloudflare's documentation all uses this framework. 00:21:34.600 --> 00:21:39.490 if that's a pretty good example of going and looking at one that already has 00:21:39.490 --> 00:21:41.930 followed this, and then you brought up. 00:21:42.175 --> 00:21:44.505 which I'll let you explain a little bit about this, that there's 00:21:44.505 --> 00:21:46.215 different learning styles within that. 00:21:46.235 --> 00:21:50.805 So are you a visual learner or an auditory or are you more of a kinesthetic learner? 00:21:50.805 --> 00:21:55.165 And it's even as a content creator, it's do you put out just audio? 00:21:55.165 --> 00:21:56.465 Do you just put out video? 00:21:56.465 --> 00:22:01.695 Is it, you know, is audio work in YouTube form where it's me watching your screen? 00:22:01.845 --> 00:22:06.725 Or is it a, do I need to get out like Excalipad or something and draw it, right? 00:22:06.725 --> 00:22:07.535 It's going to be. 00:22:07.785 --> 00:22:08.805 Very, very different. 00:22:09.225 --> 00:22:11.795 you know, when you're talking about a database on a podcast, it's, 00:22:12.115 --> 00:22:13.755 it, not everyone learns that way. 00:22:13.805 --> 00:22:16.055 and I know some of the things that we talk about on here with like 00:22:16.055 --> 00:22:19.995 headers and APIs, doesn't translate to radio all that well, but we're 00:22:19.995 --> 00:22:22.105 also not trying to teach it to you. 00:22:22.105 --> 00:22:26.435 We're trying to just chat about, you know, what, what frustrates us, what excites us 00:22:26.725 --> 00:22:30.485 CJ: terms of learning styles, I remember thinking. 00:22:31.755 --> 00:22:36.305 Growing up, Oh, I, I'm a bad reader at some point, like someone had told me 00:22:36.305 --> 00:22:38.005 like, you're not like good at reading. 00:22:38.025 --> 00:22:42.785 And then I, that sort of stuck with me and became like maybe part of my 00:22:42.895 --> 00:22:49.295 identity through early adulthood and just feeling Oh man, I don't, I wish 00:22:49.295 --> 00:22:53.505 I knew, I wish I knew how to read so that I could like, absorb as much 00:22:53.505 --> 00:22:55.225 information that other people are getting. 00:22:55.235 --> 00:22:59.345 And then about two years into college, I started watching YouTube videos. 00:23:00.115 --> 00:23:04.885 And learning I would do the open courseware for linear algebra from 00:23:04.915 --> 00:23:10.295 MIT and use that to supplement what I was doing at like in college at UNR. 00:23:10.615 --> 00:23:11.815 And I was like, Holy smokes. 00:23:11.865 --> 00:23:16.665 if there's videos for everything, that's like my preferred learning style. 00:23:16.665 --> 00:23:21.895 And then I just started finding as many video based training things as I 00:23:21.895 --> 00:23:24.155 could and just like soaking them up. 00:23:24.505 --> 00:23:27.515 And I think, I mean, these learning styles are a little bit interesting because 00:23:27.515 --> 00:23:29.415 it's kind of broken up into visual. 00:23:30.050 --> 00:23:31.530 if you have visual and auditory, right? 00:23:31.530 --> 00:23:34.550 Like visual might also be like someone who reads something. 00:23:34.550 --> 00:23:38.930 And so like, I didn't really identify as someone that was strong visual, but 00:23:38.930 --> 00:23:41.140 watching a video is definitely visual. 00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:45.150 and yeah, maybe it was the combination of the audio visual 00:23:45.410 --> 00:23:47.420 together that worked really well. 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:51.070 I also tend to listen to tons of audio books, but for me, I think 00:23:51.070 --> 00:23:55.610 figuring out that my primary learning style is auditory. 00:23:55.895 --> 00:24:02.965 My secondary is visual was really, really core in figuring out, the kind of content 00:24:02.975 --> 00:24:04.965 to seek out in order to learn that thing. 00:24:05.545 --> 00:24:07.275 but yeah, it's been interesting. 00:24:07.815 --> 00:24:11.995 To think about too, when teaching, like how do you present the content 00:24:12.025 --> 00:24:18.205 in a way that can adjust and be useful to people of all three of 00:24:18.205 --> 00:24:19.645 these different learning styles? 00:24:20.135 --> 00:24:25.015 so yeah, like embedding videos in the docs that have, tutorials and how to 00:24:25.015 --> 00:24:28.845 guides and even some explanation, I think. 00:24:29.225 --> 00:24:30.205 Is the future. 00:24:30.535 --> 00:24:33.725 We'll see if that, plays out because video is very hard to 00:24:33.725 --> 00:24:35.415 maintain in terms of documentation. 00:24:35.415 --> 00:24:40.635 But, yeah, what kind of a learning style would you say that you tend towards? 00:24:41.520 --> 00:24:45.160 Colin: I think, yeah, I mean, it's all, all three for me in that 00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:46.720 I would need to watch a video. 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:50.620 And then reinforce it like kinesthetic in this case would be like learning by 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:54.680 doing so, we're not dealing with like things you can really touch with your 00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:57.520 hands, but like I need to just try it. 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:01.490 and so sometimes you can get that with like actually crunchy data is a good 00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:05.670 example They have this like postgres sandbox and they have a little tutorial 00:25:05.670 --> 00:25:10.000 next to it So they're explaining it in a written form and then you're actually 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.690 writing the queries And like I actually had, you know using database indexes 00:25:14.690 --> 00:25:19.430 forever, but i'm like I really Don't understand these as well as I should 00:25:19.430 --> 00:25:22.630 like, or like primary and secondary indexes or, all these different things. 00:25:22.630 --> 00:25:25.560 Like why, why is this query taking so long? 00:25:25.590 --> 00:25:26.580 Those kinds of things. 00:25:27.100 --> 00:25:29.920 And so you get to learn by doing and they're like, we're going to spin up a, 00:25:30.260 --> 00:25:35.280 like a docker container with a shit ton of data and you get to see it versus me just 00:25:35.280 --> 00:25:38.300 telling you like, Oh yeah, if you don't do that, it's going to take a long time. 00:25:38.300 --> 00:25:41.890 You're like, okay, I heard it, but I didn't feel the pain of it because I've 00:25:41.890 --> 00:25:43.900 never had to feel the pain of it myself. 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:46.460 and I think what you were talking about with algebra, like when 00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:49.420 you go to school, you don't get to choose your teacher, right? 00:25:49.500 --> 00:25:53.050 You sometimes you do, you're lucky, but you're still getting that it 00:25:53.050 --> 00:25:56.390 taught from one perspective, one angle, and it's their teaching style. 00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:59.470 So if you can supplement it with these other styles, you 00:25:59.470 --> 00:26:00.490 get different perspectives. 00:26:00.490 --> 00:26:05.000 That's sometimes just like a few degrees off that then allow you to also 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:06.460 absorb what the teacher was teaching. 00:26:06.460 --> 00:26:08.130 Whereas before there was like no light bulb. 00:26:08.730 --> 00:26:13.070 And I had that, like when I actually in college, got a, it 00:26:13.070 --> 00:26:16.340 was basically, I basically almost failed out of my Algebra class. 00:26:16.340 --> 00:26:20.150 And I was like, the next time I retook it to replace the grade. 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.390 And I basically just went to every office hour and I was like, okay. 00:26:24.760 --> 00:26:25.490 I heard you. 00:26:25.510 --> 00:26:26.800 I don't understand you. 00:26:27.090 --> 00:26:27.990 let's do it. 00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:30.490 And that might've been the more kinesthetic, let's 00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:31.710 actually do it together. 00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:35.360 No one else is at office hours, so I'm going to use it, as that time. 00:26:35.360 --> 00:26:39.530 And with being able to go look at YouTube and watch four people explain 00:26:39.530 --> 00:26:42.510 it in slightly different ways, you build a better worldview for it. 00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:45.070 Obviously you have to do that for everything you learn. 00:26:45.070 --> 00:26:47.590 It's going to take you a really long time to learn stuff, but. 00:26:47.995 --> 00:26:52.005 I almost wonder if you get this a little bit and then the Stripe docs, you get 00:26:52.005 --> 00:26:57.085 the written form, there might be a video and then there's like a sample app, which 00:26:57.085 --> 00:26:59.095 is probably the more kinesthetic way. 00:26:59.610 --> 00:27:01.020 CJ: hmm, Mm hmm, Yeah. 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:08.180 It's also when I am teaching something, sometimes I get blocked. 00:27:08.180 --> 00:27:11.255 I'm like, I don't want to post this video because Someone 00:27:11.255 --> 00:27:12.205 else has already taught it. 00:27:12.845 --> 00:27:13.225 Right. 00:27:13.255 --> 00:27:16.155 And, oh, there's already a rails cast about this or go right. 00:27:16.155 --> 00:27:20.075 Chris has already covered this on go rails and five videos, but then I'll end 00:27:20.075 --> 00:27:24.055 up doing it in maybe the difference too, is that that might be a how to guide 00:27:24.055 --> 00:27:25.975 and I'm doing a tutorial or vice versa. 00:27:26.365 --> 00:27:30.115 But also it could just be like, literally I'm saying the words that I would say to 00:27:30.115 --> 00:27:33.265 explain it and they say the words they would use to explain it and different 00:27:33.265 --> 00:27:34.495 people are going to resonate with that. 00:27:35.015 --> 00:27:37.415 So the take, the big takeaway there is like. 00:27:38.555 --> 00:27:43.555 Don't ever hesitate to put out content, teaching people something that you 00:27:43.555 --> 00:27:46.955 feel like you have a little bit more knowledge of than they might have, 00:27:47.665 --> 00:27:49.555 because it's going to help somebody. 00:27:49.745 --> 00:27:52.385 Colin: I've noticed that almost everything, like when I was learning 00:27:52.395 --> 00:27:57.495 Terraform, there is a lot of getting started guides, like a lot, like every, 00:27:58.225 --> 00:28:01.465 everyone who found Terraform and loved it wrote a blog post on how to get started. 00:28:01.505 --> 00:28:02.745 And then it just ends. 00:28:03.215 --> 00:28:05.565 And I'm like, but I'm trying to do. 00:28:05.780 --> 00:28:08.840 the fourth thing that everyone needs to do with this thing. 00:28:08.840 --> 00:28:10.390 And there's like no tutorial for it. 00:28:10.390 --> 00:28:11.030 There's no guide. 00:28:11.030 --> 00:28:11.320 There's no. 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:13.760 And so I've always thought about that. 00:28:13.760 --> 00:28:17.320 yeah, I think it's easy to look at YouTube and others and be like, there's already 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:20.180 so many people teaching out there, sure. 00:28:20.220 --> 00:28:21.880 Put out a getting started guide, but. 00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:23.250 Take it to the next one. 00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:25.010 Like some of the best things that I've seen. 00:28:25.270 --> 00:28:27.690 I actually found someone on Twitter. 00:28:27.710 --> 00:28:32.540 I'll have to find them and link them, but I think they're a CTO at a company 00:28:32.550 --> 00:28:34.980 and they wrote this great blog post. 00:28:35.030 --> 00:28:39.920 Ever since they read about the library of Alexandria and it burning down, they've 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:44.060 always just been fascinated with that idea of like knowledge disappearing. 00:28:44.570 --> 00:28:47.400 And so they got this remarkable tablet. 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:49.410 It's kind of like a Kindle writable tablet. 00:28:49.770 --> 00:28:53.870 And they downloaded all of the current, like the most recent version of Wikipedia 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:57.070 and put it like offline on this tablet. 00:28:57.070 --> 00:29:01.120 So now it's like all Wikipedia in the palm of your hand offline. 00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:05.710 hopefully you can still charge it if there's some like post apocalyptic event. 00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:06.040 Right. 00:29:06.490 --> 00:29:09.280 But now you have all the knowledge in the palm of your hand. 00:29:09.290 --> 00:29:13.120 And I just thought like it was such a detailed, description of things that it's 00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:15.090 like, you would not find that elsewhere. 00:29:15.390 --> 00:29:21.560 They also hacked a Casio watch to just be like, To be a two F a, number generator. 00:29:21.560 --> 00:29:25.270 And so like at any given time, it's just constantly showing four numbers 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:27.030 and then it would recycle them. 00:29:27.050 --> 00:29:33.400 And it was like very, very low level C and, but it was like maybe four lines 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.040 of code and a little, like a little, chip that I don't know if they had to 00:29:37.060 --> 00:29:40.630 replace it or rewrite it or what they did, but it's just like that level of 00:29:40.630 --> 00:29:42.410 detail, like it was so fascinating. 00:29:42.410 --> 00:29:45.500 And I learned, like, I wasn't planning on learning about those things that 00:29:45.605 --> 00:29:46.045 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:29:46.265 --> 00:29:46.685 Colin: I did. 00:29:46.715 --> 00:29:50.185 And I followed the rabbit holes of like, okay, how did he figure out, 00:29:50.355 --> 00:29:53.975 what he had to change in the watch and does it still work as a watch? 00:29:54.655 --> 00:29:57.055 I'm trying to figure out where we're probably going to start doing 00:29:57.055 --> 00:30:01.125 videos at work, but I wanted to start doing my own personal ones. 00:30:01.815 --> 00:30:05.635 Maybe streaming, streaming is a little more intimidating to me, but 00:30:06.270 --> 00:30:09.830 Even I'm sure if you hit go, like no one's watching, so it doesn't need to 00:30:09.830 --> 00:30:14.370 be, but, you don't get to edit, you don't get to work through that stuff. 00:30:14.450 --> 00:30:15.200 CJ: hmm. 00:30:17.815 --> 00:30:20.335 Colin: yeah, so this is actually a little bit of an older book, but 00:30:20.335 --> 00:30:23.385 I highly recommend it if you're interested in all this stuff out there. 00:30:23.775 --> 00:30:28.235 it is, the sub head is refactoring your wetware, by Andy hunt. 00:30:28.665 --> 00:30:29.775 So it. 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.710 is literally like a software developers approach to thinking 00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:34.300 about neuroscience and how we learn. 00:30:34.800 --> 00:30:39.930 it's a book I go back to probably every four or five years just to rethink 00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:43.690 about how I learn, but also this was, I think I found it when I was doing 00:30:43.780 --> 00:30:45.450 quite a bit of teaching in person. 00:30:45.450 --> 00:30:50.545 So it's, There's a model in there called the Dreyfus model around how we learn. 00:30:50.845 --> 00:30:53.585 So I think like one of the good things that someone wrote down 00:30:53.585 --> 00:30:56.765 was like, you learn how your brain works and then you learn how to use 00:30:56.765 --> 00:30:58.205 your brain to learn more things. 00:30:58.705 --> 00:31:01.735 so it's if your brain has bugs in it, how do you refactor? 00:31:01.735 --> 00:31:02.655 How do you get around those? 00:31:03.215 --> 00:31:05.335 And maybe it's not a bug you can solve for. 00:31:05.455 --> 00:31:07.675 maybe it's just like, how do you get more focus? 00:31:07.695 --> 00:31:10.235 How do you get more attention, especially now? 00:31:10.235 --> 00:31:13.385 I don't think, I mean, this book was written before our phones were really, 00:31:13.405 --> 00:31:15.005 really fighting for our attention. 00:31:15.005 --> 00:31:19.135 So I'm sure Andy could do a revisit on this book for sure. 00:31:19.135 --> 00:31:22.555 But you know, how do you go from being a novice at something to being 00:31:22.555 --> 00:31:26.205 an expert where I'm sure you felt this, but there's a point where 00:31:26.205 --> 00:31:28.005 you just cross the threshold that. 00:31:28.250 --> 00:31:31.030 You don't, there's not, it's not like a video game. 00:31:31.030 --> 00:31:33.860 There's no, like you didn't level up, but all of a sudden you're like, I 00:31:33.860 --> 00:31:35.870 actually understand how this is working. 00:31:35.870 --> 00:31:37.730 It's like awesome feeling. 00:31:37.730 --> 00:31:39.500 And you still will have to check the docs. 00:31:39.500 --> 00:31:44.590 You'll still have to Google things or chat GVT things, but, but you can get it. 00:31:45.065 --> 00:31:47.625 It done and I think that's it's a good book for that 00:31:48.370 --> 00:31:48.960 CJ: Very cool. 00:31:49.150 --> 00:31:49.900 I'm going to pick that up. 00:31:50.020 --> 00:31:50.640 That's awesome. 00:31:51.050 --> 00:31:54.860 Yeah, I love, thinking about just neuroscience in general is just 00:31:54.860 --> 00:31:56.160 like really interesting, right? 00:31:56.210 --> 00:31:58.730 and also I feel like we don't know a ton about it. 00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:02.210 So every time I get into it, I love, learning about how we learn. 00:32:03.495 --> 00:32:05.855 Colin: Yeah, and if you're interested in this stuff and you want to read a 00:32:05.855 --> 00:32:10.905 neuroscience book that's like Hard to find things that are similar like that 00:32:10.905 --> 00:32:14.845 we can relate to So like coming at it as a software developer from a software 00:32:14.845 --> 00:32:16.335 developer definitely helps with that 00:32:18.730 --> 00:32:19.270 CJ: Amazing. 00:32:20.470 --> 00:32:21.690 I think that might be a wrap 00:32:22.445 --> 00:32:23.585 Colin: the learning episode 00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:27.270 CJ: the learning episode, learn, learn to learn, and then you'll learn 00:32:27.885 --> 00:32:28.495 Colin: Yes 00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:28.910 CJ: always. 00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:30.910 You can head over to build and learn. 00:32:30.910 --> 00:32:34.650 dev to check out all the links and resources in the show notes. 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:36.720 Thanks so much for listening. 00:32:37.435 --> 00:32:38.505 Colin: All right, we'll see you next time. 00:32:39.810 --> 00:32:40.330 CJ: Bye friends.