Kazra Dash: So today I am joined with James Dooley, the founder of Fat Rank. There’s multiple different titles for this. You’ve named it zero risk lead generation. Other people might call it no win no fee. What’s the correct terminology for yourself?

James Dooley: I suppose it varies on the lead generation service that we offer. Some people call it no win no fee lead generation. Quite a lot of people call it commission-based lead generation or performance-based lead generation. Some call it pay per sale lead generation. Recently we’ve started to call it PWY, which stands for pay what you want lead generation.

Kazra Dash: And how does that actually work in practice?

James Dooley: We try to onboard clients so they understand the value of our leads. We say pay us what you think we’re worth. Further down the line, if I owned a steakhouse and someone only paid £10 for a steak that should be £30 or £40, I wouldn’t want that customer back. It’s the same with our model. If we generate a mortgage broker 100 leads a month and they only want to pay £50, that relationship won’t work. But if they see the value and are willing to pay something fair, we can reinvest and scale it. It has to be win-win.

Kazra Dash: What’s the difference between yourself and a normal lead generation company? Let’s say I’m an accountant in Manchester and I want more leads. What do I need to do to work with you?

James Dooley: The first step is we vet how good you are at converting. We check branding, positioning and whether you can handle the leads properly. The reason is we take all the risk. The accountant doesn’t pay for SEO, PPC, social ads, content, backlinks or digital PR. They don’t even pay per lead. They only pay when they convert a job. That’s the big difference. A normal lead generation company charges regardless of whether there is return. We completely de-risk it for the client.

Kazra Dash: How are the leads sourced and qualified?

James Dooley: It depends on the niche. Most leads come from organic SEO. We target long-tail, highly profitable keywords. We also use PPC where it makes sense. We can use Meta ads, YouTube ads, organic social and video rankings. For example, if you’re a kitchen remodelling company, I’d focus more on ranking images and videos because it’s visual. The channel depends on how people search and buy.

Kazra Dash: Let’s talk pricing. You’ve said it’s pay what you want. Can I pay you £1 for a lead? Can I pay you £50? How does that structure work?

James Dooley: It is genuinely pay what you want, but it has to make commercial sense. It’s not really per lead. It’s per converted job. Internally we may calculate per lead value. For example, if you pay £1,000 at the end of the month and we’ve sent 100 leads, that’s roughly £10 per lead. We assess whether that works. If you’re only willing to share a very small amount of profit long term, it won’t be sustainable. It has to be a win-win so both sides can grow.

Kazra Dash: So to be clear, it’s per converted job rather than per lead?

James Dooley: Correct. If the client normally charges £2,000 for a job, they might add £100 at 5% or £200 at 10% as a referral to Fat Rank. If they win the job, they pay us. If they don’t win it, they pay nothing. Some add it on top of the price. Others absorb it from their margin. It depends on ticket size and profit levels.

Kazra Dash: What industries do you typically work in? Are there any you avoid?

James Dooley: We can work in almost any industry as long as there’s margin and the company can convert. It can be a £100 carpet cleaning job or a multi-million pound construction contract. The industry doesn’t matter. Profitability and conversion matter.

Kazra Dash: Would you work with a new business?

James Dooley: We can, and we have. But new businesses often lack testimonials, case studies and strong branding, which lowers conversion. Ideally, we prefer established companies because higher conversion benefits both sides.

Kazra Dash: What information do you need from someone looking to work with you?

James Dooley: We need their website, competitor websites and a list of their most profitable services. We reverse engineer search volume and target the most profitable keywords. Different customers search in different ways. For example, wet pour surfacing can also be called soft spongy surfacing, in situ synthetic surfacing or even rubber tarmac. We dig into that data to capture all profitable variations.

Kazra Dash: And what about case studies?

James Dooley: We have hundreds of case studies and testimonials. We’re happy to share them once we’ve approved the client as a good fit. Ideally, we also want to see their case studies and testimonials because strong social proof helps conversion.

Kazra Dash: That’s been our breakdown of the Fat Rank model and requirements to work together. If you’ve got questions, drop them in the comments. If you want to work with Fat Rank, head to fatrank.com, fill in the contact form and the team will be in touch.