Speaker 1 (00:00):
What share of team leaders shouldn't be team leaders? I asked that question to John Chela Midway through this conversation, he immediately answered 90% and then shared four specific criteria to help for yourself before and after that moment, John share's practical insights that he's developed for himself and learned from the team leaders, operations leaders and business partners that he's brought around himself. His four core principles, eight core values and the difference between them. The three ways to get agents to take action, two ways to find your operations leader and one way not to how and why to improve your copywriting and so much more. Enjoy this conversation on pouring into others without fear, limitation or calculation. Enjoy John Sch Black right now on real estate team os. 

Speaker 2 (00:48):
No matter where your business is today or where you want to take it, you'll get there faster and more profitably with an operating system. Welcome to Team Os, your guide to starting, growing and optimizing real estate team. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. 

Speaker 1 (01:03):
John, a quick thank you to open this one up. You've always been super generous with me. We first connected at fcon two years ago and I think you gave me 40 minutes even though I only had asked for 20, it was like a 20 minute format and we went to, and that was after you've been speaking for 90 minutes and I think we went past 6:00 PM that evening. You've introduced me directly and indirectly to so many just awesome people like Lauren Bowen. I met at one of your events, our guest on the past episode and a three time guest. You've given me personal intros to awesome people like Greg Harrelson. So I just want to say thank you so much for everything you've done for me and for this team leader community. Thanks for helping me kick off 26 on the show and welcome back to Real Estate Team Os. 

Speaker 3 (01:50):
Well, it is a privilege and I always enjoy spending time with you, so thank you. 

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, tell me a little bit, I mean we're obviously in the age of ai, information is everywhere, but I think about the Maverick Mastermind community, what people maybe call the Chapla community, and it's obvious to me that people aren't just looking for answers or insights or details. They are because everyone's teaching proven stuff that's worked for them in their business and their market. I feel like they're looking for each other as much as anything. How do you think about the community you've built? 

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Everything that goes well in my life personally and professionally is a result of that community. It just truly is. And I would say more so in the last 18 months because chaos creates community. Chaos causes people to move towards community and it's something that I don't know that I had a vision for it or an intention around it. The only thing I had an intention around was to be true to myself, to live by principles and truly be an example. And so gosh, it's been amazing to see it grow. And the interesting thing is it's really a bottom up type community. We're sure I'm out there loud marketing, if you will, communicating a lot out there, but it's really bottom up. I'm here and all these amazing people that come with and practically all of 'em that come with this spirit of contribution. And so I've been real fortunate by the people I've surrounded myself with that aligned to what I believe in and in a time that community is needed more so than ever. And I just couldn't be more excited about the time that we're in. 

Speaker 1 (03:37):
How did you form your principles? Share anything you want about principles as soon as you say the word, I think of Ray Dalio's book principles, which is a really interesting just approach to life. I don't suggest that you need to detail something that you could write into a 700 page book like that one, but how do you think about principles and how do they form for you? Was it like a long slow build? Was it like an epiphany one day? How did that come together for you? 

Speaker 3 (04:04):
It's very interesting. The early times of my career in learning before I kind of gained some emotional intelligence and emotional maturity. I was gaining knowledge and information to sound good, look good, play the part, and I wanted to win, but okay, I need all this information. And then I came across a mentor who built an organization. He went from a branch manager himself personally of 50, I think 50 agents was a branch manager and over time did a leverage buyout, et cetera. And I think his later years he had nearly a hundred offices. And the one thing that he always went by was principles and values. And I watched and I would say that was where my greatest growth took place as an operator. He challenged me at a super, super high level, but he said something to me, he said that personality cannot scale at the level of principles. 

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Personality can't cross state lines when you look at growing. And he said, but principles can, when you're sitting in an office in Carmel, you're sitting in an office in Sonoma County, you're in Tahoe, you're in Reno, you're in our Dallas location. What you want is those same core fundamental principles. And so I experienced it firsthand from him, whereas before I was just taking in information so my personality could work with great work ethic, but then I watched this gentleman scale and have a life at the same time. And it was about simplicity of principles. And so number one, I experienced it there, taught it, and then as I was taught it, I operated by the best of my ability. And then I stole 'em. I stole the principles of personal. And I said to him, a few years into my coaching consulting career, I said, I just want to let you know I stole everything he says, that's what they're for. We're here to pass those on. You need to pass 'em on to others. 

Speaker 1 (06:01):
That's how it gets beyond personality. 

Speaker 3 (06:03):
So personal responsibility, accountability, commitment and contribution, period. And so that's my true north. And what I tell people about principle, first of all, what is principle? People talk and I think people get 'em confused and it would simplify everything for team leaders is they get values confused. I believe a principle is this pen, every time I let go, it's dropping period. It's constant. It is law. But I hear a lot of people talk about values and really their weaving principles, their values to me are the experience that I want to have of you and you to have of me. So that's where I learned it. And then as I started to grow up and go back to the things that I learned, so I learned 'em before I really, yeah, I'd use them in the business, but then I really just went all in it. 

Speaker 3 (06:53):
When I went all in it, I think I really became unstoppable. So then I went principles and values and having them and what I would state to leaders is they've got to be internalized. Okay, personal responsibility, accountability, commitment, contribution. Great. What are your values? Fun, love, dignity, respect, humility, vulnerability, transparency, volunteerism. And then at the end, you think you have multiple decisions in business, in life, no, you don't have one. Are you going to go back to and base your decision on your principles and values? And so long answer to the short question, and I watched today, the people that live by whatever principles that they have established, they win. 

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, really good. For anyone that is looking for their back button on YouTube app or Apple Podcasts or Spotify app, don't worry. I wrote down those principles and values. They're listed in the description right down below. It's fantastic. And the pen example is exactly where it's at. For me that just super clicked. I feel like you maybe went by it a little bit already, but I will ask my standard opener, which is what is a must have characteristic of a high performing team? 

Speaker 3 (08:02):
A leader walks the top period. It's very interesting to observe and many will argue this, is that you need to be replacing yourself. You need to be constantly replacing yourself from a standpoint of transferring your skillsets. And sure there's human resource that needs to come in, but you look at this, we're in the human resource, human development, human attraction, human behavior business. And you can't make someone productive, but you've got to understand human behavior. There's three ways to grow people or train or teach people, or three ways to get people to take action. Let me say that. You can teach and train, you can tell or you can demonstrate. And what's very interesting, Ethan, and I'm not here to throw anyone under the bus, but if you look at people, I can't understand why my agents aren't doing X. You mean prospecting, mean operating in A CRM? 

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Awesome. Cool. What's your number one responsibility? What's the single most important critical activity for your business? Recruiting? Awesome. Great. So your CRM, your daily activity, someone's daily activity replicates what you expect of your agents and Ethan, 95% of them the core problem. So it is a walk the talk leader period in a discussion doing the work. You expect people to do it. And by the way, it needs to be 60% of your schedule every day, your core competency that moves the needle the most. Sometimes it may not be your core competency, but it moves the needle the most. That's where your core competency needs to be. And too many of these people confuse CEO with board member. 

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (09:46):
So walk the talk, okay, on a daily basis and stop getting yourself so far removed from the daily activities that move the needle the most. And then of course, operating principles and values. Simple. 

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, it's funny, it immediately calls to mind. Greg Harrelson, one of the things we ended up talking about a lot is how he's in the bullpen or the pit or whatever, prospecting alongside his agents for two hours a day or three hours a day. By the way, that's episode 37. I think it's definitely in the mid to late thirties. Man, that's 

Speaker 3 (10:22):
A good memory. 

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Well, John, I love this show. It's like, 

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Well, it shows. It shows. Well, let's talk about Greg and something else. And you've seen this on the internet. I'm out of sales. I'm out of sales. Yeah. Okay, so they were posting their badge. I'm out of sales. Hey Ethan, you and I both know a bunch of 'em are back in sales and ain't posting bragging about that. There's the lesson that confirms what I just shared. I mean, people have read too many books on scaling. In other words, I'm going to run a business and own a business so I can not work. All right, I'm passionate 

Speaker 1 (11:00):
About that. I think what I heard you say is constantly replace yourself so that you can continue to put yourself closer and closer to on an ongoing discovery process to get to your personal zone of genius. And to be fair, I think that might mean feel free to push back here in a minute. That might mean that you do hire a full-time recruiter because that is something someone is more genius at than you. But you're on this journey to replace yourself constantly to get to where you're of highest service and value, 

Speaker 3 (11:36):
But still being, even though that may not be your core competency. What team leaders in our space need to understand is we are very interesting. I mean in marketing is celebrity and authority and branding. You look at those things in our industry, it's weird that way. In the celebrity, it's very weird. It's really weird, but it's real. 

Speaker 3 (11:56):
And you can be a horrible recruiter and you can not have skills. But when you're the team, I know, I know because I have clients that says, pick up the phone. Well, recruiting is not my thing. You have it. You are X, you are Y, you are Z. And when I say X, Y or Z, you are a big name. You are a brand. You've got this authority. You're not going to have to put on the dog and pony show when you're doing it. So when you start looking at, okay, great, we can hire someone and they're doing that work every single day, but the impact you can have. I can remember when I was managing a branch in 1998 at 1,483 transactions with a hundred agents, and I wasn't buying leads. And they own six offices with a hundred agents in each office. And the CEO was in the trenches recruiting, interviewing agents. And I saw the modeling back then and he did really, really well. Ultimately, A few years ago on a massive exit, ed Khow, who was my mentor, PCAL, Nevada, Texas Ed Khow, sat on sidewalks with me at La Madeleines in Dallas, Texas as we were interviewing three, four and 5 million producers. He was there in it. Now he's brilliant. Did you ever meet Ed? 

Speaker 1 (13:03):
I haven't. 

Speaker 3 (13:04):
He was brilliant in the tech space and very creative, but he came back to that one thing. So there you have it. 

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay, so you've also mentioned this, but I want to dive into it and I'll position it as a kind of observation slash question. And that is, you're obviously involved in a ton of, you have a lot of partnerships around whatever the core of Shelac enterprises. That's not the name of it, but you have a lot of partnerships around it. But I feel like the theme across all of them is essentially developing people, developing human beings in order to develop as leaders. That's the next stage in order to develop their businesses. And it's kind of sequential that way. And when I think about it now, this is kind of the observation question is when I think about it, that's what a team leader needs to be doing. And that's what you're empowering team leaders to do, which is become better people, which is the precursor to them becoming better leaders, which is the precursor to them building better businesses. But then that's their job with their agents because that's what an agent needs too, is to become better people, to become better leaders, to build better businesses. Is that on 

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Bang on? I was on a coaching call with Tony. You met Tony Hansen. 

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Okay, at one of your events. I haven't had him on yet. It's totally over 

Speaker 3 (14:19):
You. He's got to be on. 

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, 

Speaker 3 (14:20):
And I was on with their leadership team and I've coached them for a couple of years, and we talked about that. Certainly we take a look at the numbers and all those things, but we went down to the human element of this thing. And first of all, it is how am I illuminate? How am I shining the light on other people? So number one is giving them the attention and two types of attention. It is developing them and professionally. So that's my time in transferring skill sets and also my principles and hopefully the way that I walk in my life, but also then too, putting my time into promoting them. Also, and I'll say this in most situations, that's the place where leaders hit probably an unconscious, in some cases, a conscious scarcity. But what if I shine the light too much on them and they leave me? 

Speaker 3 (15:28):
And it's huge. I'm going to tell you it is. If people really want to sit down and open their kimono and say, let me ask you this, how come you don't promote your agents on your Facebook page? How come you don't talk about your agents? How come you don't this? And really, if they were very, very honest with you, they'd say, well, I don't want some names. Initially when I started coaching with them, well, every time I posted it, my agent did good people steal. Well, let me tell you something. If your culture and your relationship is so transactional instead of relational, they're going to leave over you bragging about their productivity, then we've got a deeper issue. So it's every day going in and developing and allowing these people to shine. And one of two things, it is knowing that it's going to be seasoned reason, lifetime, they're going to be up a season or a reason. 

Speaker 3 (16:23):
A lot of cases, it may not be for a lifetime, people can move on. But did I impact them for a lifetime? And that's been the one thing that I'm a pretty simple guy that's been able to build some big businesses, but I stayed my principles and my values and I stay with that one with human beings, seasoned reason, lifetime. So how can I develop them and continue to create runway for them, but also supporting that on a personal level as much as I do on a professional level? And a couple of things happen is you started out, partnerships have arisen and partnership business, partnership with Preston, with EE, with Nick in five different businesses. And these were coaching clients. And by the way, here's the other thing for team leaders to hear this too, is watch this. Every single one of them and including the rest of my coaching crew, they could all create a, and Ethan, I mean you know who my coaches are. 

Speaker 3 (17:19):
Every one of them has the credibility and the authority to go start their own coaching company tomorrow, but they don't leave. How come they don't leave? It comes back to community. So I've got my own team, I'm going into being selfish about me because really the question was about team leaders. Hopefully they can see where their team fits in this story and you're worried about them stealing your leads and you're worried about them taking more of your coaches with you. Oh, really? None of my coaches, my coaches aren't even under contract. My coaches are in a statement of understanding without a non-compete clause. And guess what? None of my coaches leave me. None of my coaches leave me. So what I would say hopefully, as people hear that is holy smokes, okay, go all in on your people, develop them 100%, find out what's important to them beyond where they're at personally and professionally. 

Speaker 3 (18:10):
Give them the runway, shine the light on them, and a couple of things are going to happen. You're going to really impact someone's life in a really good way. And here's what I know to keep what I have and to keep what you have as a team leader to keep the success you have. Where are you giving it away beyond. Beyond not just a fair exchange. I'm talking about keeping that business relationship equity account. So your balance is so high, most of you're overdrawn because you're transactional and you're operating out of scarcity. So go all in on your people, develop them, and one of two things is going to happen. You're going to develop some further relationship with them in business possibly because all kinds of opportunities happen. You watch all the people you're interviewing, they're doing a lot of different things or they're going to move on and you're going to had an impact. And isn't that what we're here to do? 

Speaker 1 (19:05):
I mean, the way I think it, and I don't think you'll identify this as oversimplified, someone might, but it's people want to be seen, heard, understood, valued, and appreciated. And so yes, a post of this person just doubled last year's production. Congratulations. We still have three and a half more months to go this year. What an amazing growth story. That is a thing. But that's kind of tactical. I mean, what's really underneath that is they feel seen, heard, understood, appreciated. I'll add another one, invested into the language that you used and this relationship thing of an open dialogue where you're actually engaged and sincerely invested in the growth and development of another person is fundamentally attractive. And most people know deep down that it's so, I mean, if you want to talk about something that's scarce, it's that I know we shouldn't operate out of a scarcity mindset. I know we shouldn't operate out of fear, but the idea that you're going to go somewhere else in this market or even a new market and find someone who actually sees you, understands you, engages you and actually cares about you in a sincere way that can't be faked, is like how would anyone leave that, 

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's the play. That is the play. How can I contribute? Someone asked them, why are you growing? Why are you doing these business? Why? Oh, because I've come to a place where I go, I have so much belief in our principles, values, and life impact that primarily because what we hear a lot of, and listen, we've grown through these marketplaces. Every one of 'em, my businesses, every one of them. Well, why have we grown? Because we have people that come in and talk about not drinking anymore or drinking less. We have people talking about exercising more or their health and wellness is at a whole other level. So now when you go all in and you develop human beings first, and then you start seeing the result, it's like my excuse the expression, that's my crack. It just is. It is like, oh my gosh. So now, and what's very, very interesting in that if we stay in the human development space, all the money you want, you're going to have more than you will ever, ever need. And so now the mission is get as many employees in and partners in so that their lives can be impacted. My p and l, they'll take care of themselves. They always do. They always do, man. 

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah. Okay. Is this fair to say? Some team leaders shouldn't be team leaders? 

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Probably about 90% of them shouldn't be. 

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Okay. So then who is leadership a good fit for and who'd be better off maybe when they're productive as a, because we have these great salespeople and then a lot of them go on to be team leaders, but maybe some of them shouldn't. They should hire an assistant or two or three, maybe a buyer's agent and just refer some of the excess business and just keep going. That's what they're amazing at. How can a team leader who is in that 90% either a push through and break into a, okay, I am now this is right for me. And how maybe someone who's at that cusp, how can they recognize that maybe that isn't your best path? Because are, I mean, you can literally define success however you want. You don't have to do what she's doing. You don't have to do what he's doing. You can be successful in your own way in this business. But I feel like the reason your gut number there is 90% is that people feel like some pull, some social cultural pull that this is what I should be doing when maybe I shouldn't. 

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, really good. I think the most important thing to analyze first is escape and arrival. All of us wake up every day and escape and arrival and not from the escape. I want to escape my life with drugs and alcohol, and it's an extreme description of I want to escape the space I'm in and arrive at a better place. And that's not being, I'm not talking about, oh my God, I'm miserable. But here's a great example. My wife was in our walk-in closet at 7:00 PM and this is the most important one. This is the most important one. And her hair's wet. And I go, man, your energy. My wife's just got amazing energy. It's a neat human and sharp. I have to go on a listing appointment. Okay, great. I know how well you do on those in your conversion rates and your net income on 'em. 

Speaker 3 (23:36):
What price range? Oh, about 800,000 where at? Just around the corner. And so I can do the math on that place. So you're going to in and make about 40 grand because you're going to walk in, you're going to do the thing, and then you're out and everyone takes care of it for you. I don't care. I'm done with that. So here's my point. As I tell that story, you've got to, I think there's got to be enough pain. I think look at the pain, because here's what happens is you've got to go all in as a team leader. It's not just something you try and I don't think people have enough pain. Pain moves people. I don't think people have enough pain in the sales space to go into it. They've got, Hey, listen, I'm clipping along over here, but that's cool. So for me, my identity is pain because you know what the default is? 

Speaker 3 (24:33):
You hear a lot of people, well, yeah, but I got to go get my sales and I like my sales and I'm crushing out there. I'm crushing out there. So that's number one. Number two is that you're not in it for profit. Your profit margins are higher. As a real estate agent, talk to every single team leader. I mean, yeah, when you start scaling huge and then you do mortgage, then you do stuff. But listen, if your income is going to drop dramatically, and so how attached are you to, so these are the things, how attached are you to that income? Are you willing to make that sacrifice and for a long time? So that's the next part that people don't look at because the ego is there. Number three, you don't have to fit in. You don't have to do it because everyone else is doing it. 

Speaker 3 (25:21):
And unfortunately, a lot of people do it because other people are doing it. Because what I've found, what's very, very interesting is the amount of people that become team leaders don't know how to do math. And what I beat my math is go look at your p and l and look at what you're putting into it and then they don't. And understand you're going to work more probably because if you've built a business up, I mean, this is just some simple things to look at. If you've built a business up, you've probably figured out some systems and process. Your conversion is higher. You've got a staff around you, you've got a really good margin and a lifestyle. I got news for you the time now you're going to have 200 buyers and sellers that you're working with. What do you mean? Well, because 200 people in a year or 300 or 400, 500 are going to have a problem. 

Speaker 3 (26:08):
Well, I'm going to hire people to handle the transactional problems. Okay? Some of it's going to run up to you, but here's the other part. Now you've got expenses. And so I think those are the things to consider, but also, here's the big one. Do you have the emotional maturity and the emotional intelligence? And do you have the patience to develop human beings? Are you willing to hire people that are much more talented than you? Because I'll tell you what, the big thing to watch for is a lot of leaders where mistakes happen is are you a control freak that operates hero minion? And you see a lot of hero minion organizations. So these are the things that you're analyzing and looking at. And I've told some pretty high level people, I'll just leave it general at that. You're operating a hero minion environment. What do you mean? 

Speaker 3 (26:59):
So many low levels, if you will, hire number ones instead of number twos, people that threaten you. So I think those are the real foundational pieces because what's going to happen is, okay, what did we talk about? We talked about the financial part of it. Okay, we talked about the time element of it. Don't fool yourself. Okay, we talked about the pain element of it because I think the rest is really, really easy because what they've demonstrated is they've demonstrated either an ability to market through marketing to get exposure or to market through activity. Marketing is not just a marketing piece. Marketing is through picking up the phone, talking to people. Those things are marketing. So obviously you've built up the core fundamentals of being able to build something. And then the final piece though too, what's your capabilities to transfer those skill sets to people? Are you going to tell, teach or you're going to demonstrate? Those are the simple ones. If I break it down, because what happens is things get tough and you haven't experienced those. They're going to default to sales. They'll go right back to sales instead of going all in. 

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, I mean that last piece is a thing. I think about any kind of new habit or new posture, we want to assume there's just a constant pull to go back to what's familiar, what we're good at, and what we like to do those things because they make us feel highly competent and successful. 

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Safety. 

Speaker 1 (28:28):
You opened up three different doors that I already had on my list of things I wanted to drive 

Speaker 3 (28:32):
Back. Imagine that I can go, 

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because I just wrote a bunch of one-liners. I'm curious about this. I'm curious about that. So I guess I'll pick this. Hiring people that are genius in a complimentary way to you. I'm thinking of the Camilla Rivera with Lori Reeder. I'm thinking about Chris Vander V with Kyle Whistle. I'm thinking about what Adam Briley did bringing Kobe sway into his business. Come on. When I think about a team leader who's a good person, they're a good leader, but they don't yet have a good business, it's because they're missing that kind of person. It's not necessarily because they're not capable of seeding control to someone who can really amplify the business and compliment them. Maybe they haven't found them yet. So I'd love any observations or tips or recommendations you have for a team leader on how to maybe find that person or identify that person in their business or anything you want to share about that great partnership of a great operator alongside a very naturally talented leader and salesperson. 

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Sure. It always comes back down to the human behavior thing. The first thing you've got to do is be willing to hire someone that scares the shit out of you in that they get in and they're going to do so well that they could take my people, period. If you don't have that person, you've hired a number two, you've hired a number two. And what you've also done when you've hired a number two is you're not betting on yourself. And number three, you're not a relational person that operates an organization on culture. Culture. I don't care if you go to ax throwing, I don't care if you have a great buffet. That's not culture like do you operate in principles and do you operate in values? I think there's a couple ways to do it. It's very interesting, the grand scheme of things. What I've watched happen is, and it's an easy answer, but it's not. 

Speaker 3 (30:28):
But I'm telling you from practical experience, I've watched the most successful that have risen up to be a chief operating officer that have risen up to be a sales manager. Any executive that have risen up to be a great marketer, man, I'm thinking of a few of 'em right now. They started in the lowest level administrative positions, and they are committed to the vision, they're aligned to the vision. They do not have the resume or the experience of many, many more that a piece of paper would tell you are better than, but it's here. It's not here. You've got to hire this. Because I think that a lot of people will end up hiring someone with great skill sets or a great resume, but they're there for the job. What I've watched in our, because I think it is fair to say we have a wacky business. 

Speaker 3 (31:34):
We have an elevator asset. Our asset is not sure, okay, some of these people are in the building, but throw the desks in the street, the technology, throw everything in the street, it's worth nothing. So the asset comes in, gets on the elevator and comes in, sits the office. They don't much anymore. But just from a visualization, that asset goes home and doesn't have to come back. So leading those type of people, that's a lot more art than science. So why I believe, and so I share that story with people is that someone who has risen up as an admin and worked their way up, they hear the language, they see the experience, they start to understand this attrition thing, this acknowledgement thing, this how much to push, how much not to push. When you have someone that is coming in and they're just at a very low level admin, like entry level, they're watching and seeing these dynamics. 

Speaker 3 (32:37):
I have watched more people up from that and have longevity and success and that development because they're bought in. They're bought in and they're experiential. That's worked. I would say more than anything, when you look at some of these people that we mentioned, anyone else though, rarely do I see. It's weird. I look at marketing, COOs, sales managers, man, I can over Myers. Rarely do I see the good resume come in and last. It is just really the person from outside that has this big resume. So that one, that would be my last choice. My first choice is developing someone from within. I'm not talking about someone that's an assistant manager. They move to manage. No, I'm talking about from the very bottom, look for something. Look at their principles, their values, their commitment. Do they stay late? Are they on? So that would be my number one. My number two hire is going to be ripping someone off from a competitor. So that's 

Speaker 1 (33:46):
The order where they're not getting that kind of investment. 

Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah. Yeah. So because here's what I've found. I have watched people lose so much money making that big hire the big resume, and I'm telling you, they fail 90% of the time. They do. I've watched this thing and these real estate agents are a beast. They're an independent contractor. I mean, it's a whole different thing, man. Whole different thing. 

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah. The story you described as your ideal hire, that is Camilla Rivera's story, and we tell it on episode 82. She came in as I think a marketing intern one summer, and when one of the other team members stepped left the business, she kind of stepped in and filled it and just like, okay, I guess I'm in. And came up from the ground up. 

Speaker 3 (34:35):
Ethan, have you met Mary Davis? Dan Be's, I 

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Haven't. 

Speaker 3 (34:39):
Marketing person who's now just driving the marketing inside of Fast Forward, moving all that. Mary Davis, we're talking about $600 million team. She was the marketing director in San Diego, competitive marketplace, billboards, media buys, all that stuff. She was Dan and Li's Nanny moved into a personal assistant. And so that person that's committed, it's like that's where, oh, he's replacing and replacing yourself in that factor because all these team leaders are always the director you're never going to hire. I don't care what they say. This is my director of marketing. You're a liar. You're making 'em feel good. You're the director of marketing and a discussion. But that's where a whole other conversation. But what happens is she can finish his sentences. She's watching and seeing. And so I mean there's story after story of that. So develop 'em from within is number one at a very, very low level so that each step they take, they've got this appreciation and hunger. And then number two is steal someone. 

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah. Okay. One of the things I really appreciate about you is that you are constantly writing. And one thing I'll observe, a lot of people who aren't writing emails or writing social posts, which you're prolific at, or recording videos that might be someone's preferred 

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Channel, 

Speaker 1 (36:05):
They're like, I haven't found my voice. I would argue that you don't find your voice, you develop it. It's not waiting for you around a corner. You exercise it and develop it. 

Speaker 2 (36:14):
And 

Speaker 1 (36:15):
So where I'm at here is at the doorstep of demonstrating principles, values, naturally attracting people through recruiting, being present. It's not about being a celebrity, it's about developing and exercising your voice and attracting like people or the right people to you. Talk a little bit about how you developed a writing habit and turn that into a tip or recommendations for a team leader that's obviously this is releasing beginning of 20, 26. People are open to maybe new habits and new behaviors to achieve new levels. And I think this is something that could unlock a lot of positivity in someone's life and business. So I'd love for you to share anything you'd like about a writing habit or even a video conversation habit, not for the sake of making content. I'm air quoting for people that are listening, but for really developing and sharing your voice and perspective. 

Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah, really good. I don't know when it happened, but I started getting coaching outside the industry. So people like Frank Kern and Jeff Walker and Ryan Leve, and then moving into, I think Jeff Walker's out near Neck of the Woods in Colorado. 

Speaker 1 (37:35):
I think he's out in Durango. He's in the deep beautiful place. 

Speaker 3 (37:39):
And then I looked at our industry that was scripts and dialogues, and I just had this moment where I went, oh, it's not as script or dialogue, the spoken word. It was written first. It's a script. And then I saw these guys, they'd always talk about copy, talk about copy, talk about copy. And I started consuming. And so the first thing is you've got to gain this belief and hopefully the one thing I just want to say to you is every script or dialogue or objection handler is copywriting. It's just spoken. And think about the time and the energy and the effort that you are putting into something to take someone from point A to point B. And so hopefully that can really register with people. Oh, okay, great. And then I started looking at the greats in marketing and they were writing and writing and writing. 

Speaker 3 (38:28):
Someone says, listen, if you can be a great copywriter, of course I know because I practiced scripts and dialogues when I was an agent. And so I just went deep diving in and someone said something to me, they said, listen, you want to know how to learn copy is take a look at any of the ads that you see come through the social media. Take a look at the emails that people are writing and study every one of them and put your socks in the shoes of the consumer. You are the consumer. Did it grab me? Did I read all the way down or did I just read some of it and move away and then get into the science of it? And so the first thing I would say to anyone is take a good artist's cheat radar's, copy, take a look at what people are posting over and over and over and over again. 

Speaker 3 (39:13):
If they're posting it, they're writing it, it's working just FY. I remember that. I think my good buddy, Keith Krantz, he wrote the ultimate Guide to Facebook ads with, oh, geez, Louise, another really sharp dude too. So I deep dived into it. So now what is it? What do you want to do? What you want to do is educate, inform, and inspire. Here's the thing is that copywriting is marketing. The stake that you're making folks with your social media posts or your emails is, many of us think marketing sells. No, no. Marketing is not there to sell. Marketing is to build credibility, authority, and compound your brand. Marketing is to build trust. Marketing is to lower the guard. So actually your audience asks you what to do next. And so you actually don't have to get in scripts and dialogue. So it was watching these people continue to grow their businesses and talk about copy. 

Speaker 3 (40:16):
And so going just all in on it. The next piece was the thing of, okay, and I want to share with the team leader. If you're trying to recruit, I want to share with an agent that's trying to move to convert people right now and the recording of this, we're in a trust recession. So you've really got to make deposits and you've got to do more of it. What's keeping 'em up at night? What's keeping them up at night? And a lot of people, well, I'm not creative. You don't need to be creative. You need to, and I'll go back to this and I've never really read a bunch of, I don't think I've even read a Gary V book or seen him speak. And I'm not saying he's good or bad, it's just not someone fault. But I'll tell you the one thing that I know that I've heard him say or see across the internet document, stop trying to be creative, be you. 

Speaker 3 (41:02):
So number one, we know that copywriting works, marketing works. Our job is to move people point A to point B. How do we move them? Well, we can't move them until we lower their guard. So if we educate and form and we inspire in the areas that are challenging, a real estate agent right now are keeping 'em up at night or they're interested in the areas that are challenging the consumer right now, interest them, inspire them. If we stay in those spaces and talk about it, not from trying to sell 'em, but from our own experiences, it's really, really simple. Now, from a structural standpoint, it's very simple. And this, there's so many video formulas open with a hook. Let 'em know what you're going to talk about, talk about it, tell 'em what to do next. That's simple stuff with emails and social media posts. 

Speaker 3 (41:56):
When you're writing long copy what you want to do, whether for the consumer or whether for recruiting, what you want to do is you want to look at your, I tell people, go, so we don't get political. Go to Fox and C Nnn. Go to both of them and I want you to look at the context, not the content. Their job is to grab you the headline. And the second thing is to pull you downhill to read it all. Well, if you look at most copy that's written, well written, you've got a subject line that's a hook, and then you've got the first sentence is a subhead to pull you down. And then just simple structuring of the way that you space the aesthetics of your copies, good, stop worrying about, because we're talking about getting people to do why you want to do it, stop worrying about grammar. 

Speaker 3 (42:44):
They actually teach in a lot of copywriting classes, spelling and grammar. Yeah, you're going to have grammar, police and all those type of people. Don't worry about that stuff. And the final piece is take your conversations and experience and document them. Document them as if you are talking. Actually, I think that the very, very best way for someone to get good at copy and to get some repetition is talking to your phone. Just start talking and talking and talking. Transcribe it, then edit it out. You will be a freaking masterful copywriter. You want to know why? Because stop trying to be like everyone else, be you. Everyone else has taken. So that's my quick down and dirty on how I got here and in telling people what to do, those are the things that I've done. And I mean it's been bananas. Craziness. 

Speaker 1 (43:33):
It's based in other people's needs, wants and interests. It is from your own perspective and point of view, it's in your own voice. I would certainly have leveraged AI for some of my writing oriented tasks, but I am never going to it for foundational materials. And what you just shared there is what are real stories? I think if a team leader thinks about what are the five interesting conversations, and maybe this should be a daily habit, but let's just say someone's reflecting on the week. What are five of the most interesting conversations I had this week? Why did they happen? What is the nature of them and which three, could I turn into a little email or a little video where I can teach people how I'm teaching other people? 

Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yep. Yep. Really good. And I've got a post that's done really well recently back in March, I was talking to my son. My son reached out to me, Hey dad, I'm going to speak at a real estate event. And I wrote, I mean the post is there on my personal Facebook page right now. So what big deal you always do? No, this is different. And keep in mind he's in the fitness and nutrition business, you guys, I'm just talking to you right now. This was an epic copy that crushed that actually was done four days ago and he blew up in inquiries and it wasn't designed to do that. So here's what he did. He says, no, I'm going to speak marketing. I says, well, you haven't never sold a house, you never recruited an agent, but you're out marketing everyone. No one emails as consistent as you do. 

Speaker 3 (44:56):
So I'm talking about things at work no one has. And this is taking you all behind the scenes of creating a piece of copy that was not conversion based and he blew up no one posts like you do as consistently and no one's doing as many lead magnets. Yeah, go for it. So what did he do? He did a lead magnet, got a download. Well, today you see these four brands here. He's coaching Rooster, easy home search, he's coaching responsive mortgage, and he's just took on another one. He's taken on four. So here's what happened since March because he marketed and I just told the story, just told the story. So you stories, 

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yeah. Okay. I have like six other topics, but we don't have time for them all. Last time I asked you how you invest your time in resting, relaxing and recharging or learning, growing and developing this time, I'm going to ask you, John, what is one of your most frivolous purchases or what's a cheapskate habit you hold onto even though you probably don't need 

Speaker 3 (46:02):
To? I do a lot of things I don't need to do, but I enjoy, I can buy a machine. I do a cheeses cape. I think I've got 10 farm staff now at my two ranches. I can pay them to pitch fork manure out in my pasture and all the cowboys come in. I'm not a cowboy. I'm trying to be a cowboy. I'm learning to be a cowboy. Oh, you need to do a spreader and it's better for your grass. Well, all these experts know, well, guess what? There is equine coronavirus. Okay. And I had one go to the LSU hospital, almost lost at smarty pants. So this is a funny one, and I don't know if it's cheap. It's exercise. Yeah, I can pay people to shovel manure and I shovel or I pitchfork manure out of my pastures because I like to be my pastures. 

Speaker 3 (46:53):
But let me tell you the other one. This might not be Fless, but really it was, I already owned a ranch in a farm, 12 and a half acres. We got six horses there in goats. I bought it a year ago in July, and I was driving back Ethan from Maverick last October. Was it Maverick or conversion in Nashville? I was driving back and we've got our home here, our home in Vegas, and we've got that farm there kind of detoured in Mississippi on the drive back in October and about a 375 acre ranch, put it under contract, closed on it this last June, and wife said No and did not look at it. So it was, I want to leave you with this frivolous, risky, and she's happy as can be and loves it. I bought a 375 acre ranch with 14 structures. It's an hour away from my other farm, so call it frivolous, called stupid. I don't know. I've got a whole bunch of people that have come out and come to events and a whole much more coming in December. 

Speaker 1 (47:53):
Well, I'm looking forward to visiting myself. I'm looking forward to reconnecting in person. I so appreciate you spending all this time with me. And of course the folks that we've drawn around these conversations here on real estate team os. John, if someone wants to follow up with you, they're not connected to you already, where would you send people to follow up on this conversation? 

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Let's go to my personal Facebook page. John Che Black. That's where I hang out. I talk to people, I respond. No one touches any. This is a good close. No one writes my emails, no one writes my social media posts. No one is in my dms except me. It's me. Meet me there. 

Speaker 1 (48:25):
Awesome. Linked up right down below as our principles, as our values, as are some of the other episodes we drove by, as is John's first appearance here on the show in the fcom sessions. John, thank you. Have an awesome rest of the day. Have an awesome rest of the week and I look forward to seeing you soon. 

Speaker 3 (48:40):
I appreciate you brother. Can't wait to see it. 

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Thanks for checking out this episode of Team Os. Get quick insights all the time by checking out real estate team Os on Instagram and on TikTok.