WEBVTT

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A major Android OEM agreeing to create a

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future Graphene OS compatible phone,

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ProtonMail sharing data with the FBI,

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the OpenAI Pentagon deal, and more.

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These are the stories that we'll be

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discussing in this episode of This Week in

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Privacy,

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our weekly live stream where we discuss

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the latest updates within the Privacy

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Guides community,

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and this week's top stories in the data

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privacy and cybersecurity space.

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I'm Jonah,

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and with me this week is Nate.

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How's your week been going, Nate?

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Been keeping really, really busy,

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but could be worse, so I can't complain.

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Oh, good.

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Let's hop right into it.

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We'll start off with the biggest news

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story I think that we've seen in privacy

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and security from the past week.

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Of course,

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it's Motorola confirming Graphene OS

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support for a future phone.

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and bringing over features to their

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lineup.

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This article we have is from Nine to

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Five Google.

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They published it on March first,

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and they said,

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following rumors swirling for quite some

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time,

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Motorola has announced a partnership with

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Graphene OS that will see the

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privacy-focused,

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de-Googled version of Android

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pre-installed on upcoming Motorola

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devices.

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A new long-term partnership between

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Motorola and Grafino S was announced at

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Mobile World Conference,

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earlier this week on Monday,

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with plans for both a future smartphone to

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have Grafino S pre-installed and certain

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features from Grafino S coming over to

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other Motorola devices,

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the company said in a media briefing in

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Barcelona.

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In a press release, Motorola said,

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Motorola is introducing a new era of

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smartphone security through a long-term

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partnership with the GrapheneOS

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Foundation,

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the leading nonprofit in advanced mobile

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security and creators of a hardened

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operating system based on the Android open

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source project.

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Together,

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Motorola and the GrapheneOS Foundation

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will work to strengthen smartphone

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security and collaborate on future devices

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engineered with GrapheneOS compatibility.

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In the coming months,

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Motorola and the Graphene OS Foundation

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will continue to collaborate on joint

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research, software enhancements,

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and new security capabilities with more

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details and solutions to roll out as the

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partnership evolves.

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All of this comes after some leaks at

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the end of February that we saw on

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Reddit and also discussed on our own

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Privacy Guides forum where some Motorola

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or Lenovo media slides were

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leaked ahead of this showing Graphene OS

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being referenced in their roadmap for

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future devices.

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And so those rumors did prove to be

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true this week.

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It's not...

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It's unclear how this partnership is going

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to work,

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especially with Motorola saying that

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they're going to be bringing over features

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from GrapheneOS into their devices.

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We do know right now that all of

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Motorola's current devices will not be

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compatible with GrapheneOS.

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That will be coming as a future device.

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We've seen social media updates from the

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GrapheneOS team confirming that none of

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Motorola's

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devices currently meet their security

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standards.

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And they're saying that a future Motorola

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device that can run GrapheneOS will have

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similar specs to the flagship end of

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Motorola's devices,

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like the Motorola Signature,

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but the current Motorola Signature will

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not be supported.

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GrapheneOS

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social media team members have also said

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that we can expect a device to come

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out in twenty twenty seven.

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So this is not an immediate launch by

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any means,

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but it is now confirmed that they will

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be working with Motorola,

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putting to rest all of the rumors

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of all the other OEMs they could possibly

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be working with.

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I know there's a lot of speculation for

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the past few months since Graphene OS

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originally announced they would be working

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with an unnamed hardware device partner.

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And now that's confirmed.

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But yeah,

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this will definitely be a big shift for

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Graphene OS and how they've always done

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things in the past.

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So Nate,

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you've taken a look at this story.

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It's been big news throughout the week.

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Was there any key takeaways that you

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wanted to discuss here?

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Um, no,

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I think you kind of covered it.

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I mean, at this point,

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it's still so early on that there's,

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I mean,

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I don't want to say there's a lot

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of speculation.

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I mean, it is,

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there is a lot of speculation.

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Like, um,

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you kind of covered everything we know for

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sure.

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Um, I, I'm interested.

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I, you know, uh,

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Jordan said here in the comments that

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Mortarola was an interesting choice,

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which I totally agree with, but also like,

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I, I'm not sure.

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I'm not much of a hardware guy,

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especially when it comes to phones.

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I know that pixels, of course,

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have like the best security,

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which is why we recommend pixels.

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And also iPhones have good security,

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but obviously that's never going to

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happen.

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That would be interesting.

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But I think I'm notoriously critical of

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Samsung security.

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So I've seen some people saying like, oh,

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I wish they'd work with Samsung.

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I cynically do not see a world where

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Samsung security will ever be good enough.

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to run a graphene device, in my opinion.

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They would have to really do a lot

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of work there.

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But yeah, it's really just...

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I can't think of anybody off the top

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of my head that I'm like, oh,

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it's weird they didn't go with these

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people.

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I definitely was not expecting Motorola,

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but again,

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I don't know who I was expecting.

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I think I will be really impatient to

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see what comes next.

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I'm really interested...

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Because Motorola's official announcement

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for this had a very heavy emphasis on

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enterprise features.

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And I know that's historically something

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that's been missing from a lot of FOSS

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projects.

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With all the stuff about age verification

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going on,

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a lot of people have pointed out that

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a lot of FOSS projects like Linux are

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missing...

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parental controls.

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And so it kind of makes it harder

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to, uh,

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pull yourself out of those systems,

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but still maybe monitor what your kids do.

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And so where I'm going with this is

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I will be interested to see if maybe

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graphene is able to pull, uh,

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some of those optionally, of course,

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some of those like enterprise features to

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create like some kind of parental control

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thing in a secure way.

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Um, or anything I will be,

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I've seen some rumors that

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there's not necessarily a guarantee that

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these phones will come pre-shipped with

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graphing,

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but they will be graphing compatible.

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I've also seen other rumors that graphing

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will be an optional,

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like when you buy it,

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you can select graphing.

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I hope that will be commercially available

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and not just for enterprise users.

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Um, so yeah, it's, uh, I dunno, every,

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again,

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I feel like a lot of things we

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could say at this point would be

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speculation, but I'm really hopeful.

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I'm really excited to see where this goes.

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I'm happy that graphene has access.

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I'm assuming they now have access to

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Android.

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Um, in a,

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in a more stable kind of way.

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Cause I know that was a big thing

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is Google's been locking down Android

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slowly and making it less available and

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less open source in practice,

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if not officially.

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Um,

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and a lot of ROMs have struggled with

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trying to get ahold of Android so that

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they can modify it and get it ready

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for releases.

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And that's been slowing down cycles.

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So I'm assuming now they have better

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access to that kind of stuff.

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And they'll, you know,

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of course they'll have,

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I'm assuming access to the hardware to be

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able to like modify that and they don't

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have to reverse engineer things.

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I'll be interested to see if they continue

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to support the pixel or not.

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So just a lot of questions, but I'm,

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I'm really hopeful to see where this goes.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I've definitely seen a lot of conflicting

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reports on this.

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I know the nine to five Google said

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that Graphene OS would come pre-installed.

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I'm not sure if Motorola said that because

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they didn't mention it in their press

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release,

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but maybe they did at the in-person event.

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I wasn't at Mobile World Conference,

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so I wouldn't know.

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I do think, yeah,

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I'm definitely interested to see what this

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phone looks like because Graphene OS has

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for a very long time touted the idea

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of

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like the the the titan security chip in

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pixels being like the gold standard for

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for smartphone security and a lot of their

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features do rely on that whereas um all

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of these other existing devices don't

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really have a comfortable security chip in

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place that has all the same features so

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if we look at like all of motorola's

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devices right now which use qualcomm chips

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You know,

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Qualcomm has some sort of secure element,

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which the name of is escaping me off

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the top of my head,

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but it's not as comprehensive as the Titan

00:09:12.330 --> 00:09:13.932
M chips in the Pixels.

00:09:15.712 --> 00:09:16.693
in terms of what they can do.

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And so I'm really interested to see if

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Motorola is going to be able to provide

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an alternative in these future phones and

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what that will look like.

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I don't know what sort of secure element

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requirements

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would be needed in this case.

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I don't know what commercially available

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options there are for Motorola to choose

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from.

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That's kind of... Oh,

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that would be above my pay grade,

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but I'm sure Grafino S and their team

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is figuring all that stuff out and

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probably...

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has been working with Motorola on this for

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quite some time.

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I mean, obviously,

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this news was released today,

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but GrapheneOS has been talking about this

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for a while.

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And they've obviously been planning this

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behind the scenes for quite some time.

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It's also,

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it's an interesting relationship that they

00:10:07.182 --> 00:10:08.302
seem to have with Motorola.

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And I think it explains why they haven't

00:10:10.081 --> 00:10:14.023
gone with other OEMs because I've seen

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Graphene OS representatives on social

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media say that Motorola essentially came

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to them asking for the partnership and

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committing these resources as opposed to

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them reaching out and trying to find one

00:10:26.865 --> 00:10:28.985
that's most suitable for them.

00:10:30.105 --> 00:10:32.006
Which makes sense because you would really

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need

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a pretty high level of buy-in from

00:10:35.890 --> 00:10:39.075
whatever OEM you partner with to take on

00:10:39.095 --> 00:10:40.116
a lot of the responsibility.

00:10:40.157 --> 00:10:43.020
GrapheneOS is of course a very small team

00:10:43.041 --> 00:10:45.464
still and can't exactly make all of these

00:10:45.945 --> 00:10:47.768
hardware decisions and software changes to

00:10:47.807 --> 00:10:49.230
support a new device just like

00:10:50.270 --> 00:10:52.993
on a whim, resources are limited.

00:10:53.052 --> 00:10:56.575
So being able to work with Motorola and

00:10:56.615 --> 00:10:59.456
kind of maybe direct their team in a

00:11:00.017 --> 00:11:02.038
security-minded focus is really

00:11:02.057 --> 00:11:02.438
interesting.

00:11:02.479 --> 00:11:03.779
And it's a really cool opportunity for

00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:03.919
them.

00:11:05.908 --> 00:11:06.128
Yeah,

00:11:06.488 --> 00:11:08.409
I think we'll just have to wait and

00:11:08.470 --> 00:11:09.590
see what this looks like.

00:11:10.010 --> 00:11:11.792
I know I've seen some people disappointed.

00:11:12.591 --> 00:11:14.913
The OEM wasn't some of the other top

00:11:14.933 --> 00:11:15.134
picks.

00:11:15.193 --> 00:11:17.355
I know people were hoping for OnePlus or

00:11:17.414 --> 00:11:19.616
nothing or perhaps Sony.

00:11:20.596 --> 00:11:23.339
But I don't think Motorola is the worst

00:11:23.359 --> 00:11:23.979
choice out there.

00:11:23.999 --> 00:11:26.061
And I think it's a very positive sign

00:11:26.081 --> 00:11:26.860
that Motorola...

00:11:28.461 --> 00:11:31.485
seemingly initiated this partnership or at

00:11:31.504 --> 00:11:33.907
the very least is very invested in making

00:11:33.927 --> 00:11:37.230
this happen so um it's a good level

00:11:37.291 --> 00:11:39.393
of commitment on on their end as far

00:11:39.413 --> 00:11:43.917
as we can tell yeah i agree while

00:11:44.096 --> 00:11:45.298
while you were talking i was thinking

00:11:45.339 --> 00:11:46.500
about some of the more um

00:11:47.884 --> 00:11:48.845
The more, I guess,

00:11:48.965 --> 00:11:51.485
open source aligned phone makers out

00:11:51.525 --> 00:11:51.787
there,

00:11:51.907 --> 00:11:53.368
like nothing isn't really open source,

00:11:53.388 --> 00:11:55.089
but I think they have the whole modular

00:11:55.109 --> 00:11:55.908
thing going on.

00:11:56.490 --> 00:11:57.409
I might be thinking of somebody else,

00:11:57.429 --> 00:11:59.731
but like Fairphone, Purism,

00:11:59.751 --> 00:12:01.472
what's the other one?

00:12:02.013 --> 00:12:03.214
The Pine phone,

00:12:03.234 --> 00:12:05.696
which I know those were probably never

00:12:05.755 --> 00:12:07.397
even on the table for security reasons.

00:12:07.456 --> 00:12:09.177
But yeah, I mean,

00:12:09.518 --> 00:12:12.139
it's one thing worth noting is I did

00:12:12.179 --> 00:12:14.361
see a video this week that dove into

00:12:14.402 --> 00:12:16.982
this topic a little more and showed also

00:12:17.023 --> 00:12:17.144
the,

00:12:18.224 --> 00:12:21.047
the hacker news y combinator uh forum

00:12:21.206 --> 00:12:22.989
where daniel was pretty active responding

00:12:23.048 --> 00:12:24.470
to some people and he made a point

00:12:24.490 --> 00:12:25.870
of saying like this is not an exclusive

00:12:25.910 --> 00:12:28.693
partnership so he said at this time

00:12:28.894 --> 00:12:30.475
there's no plans for graphene to work with

00:12:30.514 --> 00:12:32.216
any other oems but it's not off the

00:12:32.236 --> 00:12:33.677
table and i actually didn't know that

00:12:33.697 --> 00:12:36.701
about motorola coming to them but um i

00:12:36.721 --> 00:12:39.163
think i mean i'm sure you said this

00:12:39.202 --> 00:12:40.543
and i'm sure this is a given but

00:12:40.563 --> 00:12:42.186
like i think this is great for graphene

00:12:42.245 --> 00:12:43.147
i think this is great for

00:12:43.787 --> 00:12:44.287
open source.

00:12:44.307 --> 00:12:46.187
I think this is great for, uh,

00:12:46.207 --> 00:12:48.068
the general consumer to have this easily

00:12:48.188 --> 00:12:49.729
accessible, um,

00:12:49.749 --> 00:12:52.029
potentially ships with graphene device,

00:12:52.049 --> 00:12:53.809
uh, especially if that is again,

00:12:53.910 --> 00:12:56.291
a consumer accessible option at checkout.

00:12:56.892 --> 00:12:59.913
So I think if this phone does really

00:12:59.972 --> 00:13:01.072
well, um,

00:13:01.173 --> 00:13:02.813
I think that will show other OEMs that

00:13:02.833 --> 00:13:04.913
there is an interest in this and being

00:13:04.933 --> 00:13:05.995
that again, graphene,

00:13:06.014 --> 00:13:07.995
this is not an exclusive relationship,

00:13:08.455 --> 00:13:09.995
then that would be, uh,

00:13:11.549 --> 00:13:13.312
that would potentially be on the table

00:13:13.331 --> 00:13:14.332
that they could go to graphing and be

00:13:14.352 --> 00:13:14.793
like, oh,

00:13:14.852 --> 00:13:15.813
we want to work with you to make

00:13:15.975 --> 00:13:17.596
our phones graphing compatible as well,

00:13:18.116 --> 00:13:20.158
which would just give us even more option

00:13:20.239 --> 00:13:21.600
for other manufacturers.

00:13:21.640 --> 00:13:23.501
So, I mean, I know I'm getting really,

00:13:23.542 --> 00:13:24.182
really ahead of myself.

00:13:24.202 --> 00:13:25.485
This is probably years down the road if

00:13:25.504 --> 00:13:27.125
that ever happens, but, you know,

00:13:27.186 --> 00:13:28.126
we can dream, right?

00:13:28.267 --> 00:13:28.368
So...

00:13:28.967 --> 00:13:29.668
Yeah, absolutely.

00:13:30.288 --> 00:13:32.649
I know I see some chats here about

00:13:32.870 --> 00:13:33.551
PinePhone.

00:13:34.331 --> 00:13:36.253
It would have been nice certainly to see

00:13:37.533 --> 00:13:39.475
a partnership with a more niche or

00:13:39.514 --> 00:13:41.475
especially like repairable phone.

00:13:42.517 --> 00:13:43.277
Fairphone, I think,

00:13:43.297 --> 00:13:45.778
would have been a top choice for a

00:13:45.818 --> 00:13:46.980
lot of people for sure,

00:13:47.059 --> 00:13:48.059
especially in this community,

00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:52.102
because a lot of these values, I think,

00:13:52.503 --> 00:13:53.943
go hand in hand a lot of the

00:13:54.004 --> 00:13:57.205
time between open source privacy security

00:13:57.284 --> 00:13:59.166
repairability like a lot of people are

00:13:59.186 --> 00:14:01.285
very passionate in this community in this

00:14:01.306 --> 00:14:06.769
community about all of those things um but

00:14:07.249 --> 00:14:09.450
yeah no matter no matter which way you

00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:11.931
look at this um any sort of partnership

00:14:11.990 --> 00:14:13.910
i think with uh with an oem and

00:14:13.931 --> 00:14:15.851
especially one that's big name as motorola

00:14:15.991 --> 00:14:18.232
is is huge for any custom rom but

00:14:18.273 --> 00:14:20.254
especially graphene os it's definitely

00:14:21.958 --> 00:14:24.080
The Android realm of choice that we would

00:14:24.100 --> 00:14:29.745
want to see partnering with OEM versus a

00:14:29.804 --> 00:14:30.946
lot of the other options out there.

00:14:31.005 --> 00:14:36.791
So yeah, it's very cool news.

00:14:37.091 --> 00:14:38.731
Yeah, I don't have much else to add.

00:14:38.751 --> 00:14:39.092
Like I said,

00:14:39.153 --> 00:14:40.354
everything at this point is kind of a

00:14:40.874 --> 00:14:41.534
speculation.

00:14:42.075 --> 00:14:43.115
We'll just have to wait and see where

00:14:43.155 --> 00:14:43.655
things go.

00:14:43.937 --> 00:14:44.356
Yeah.

00:14:45.706 --> 00:14:46.587
I think in the meantime,

00:14:46.748 --> 00:14:49.051
we can talk about a different phone if

00:14:49.071 --> 00:14:50.332
we're ready to move on,

00:14:50.513 --> 00:14:51.754
which is the iPhone.

00:14:52.456 --> 00:14:54.399
And this is pretty exciting news,

00:14:54.458 --> 00:14:57.001
but apparently the iPhone and the iPad are

00:14:57.062 --> 00:14:59.885
now approved to handle classified NATO

00:15:00.046 --> 00:15:00.706
information.

00:15:01.642 --> 00:15:02.802
Um, I'm not gonna lie.

00:15:02.842 --> 00:15:03.923
This is kind of a headline says it

00:15:03.942 --> 00:15:04.062
all.

00:15:04.104 --> 00:15:06.485
This is a, for audio listeners, uh,

00:15:06.504 --> 00:15:09.285
this is a new press press release directly

00:15:09.326 --> 00:15:09.886
from Apple.

00:15:10.407 --> 00:15:12.908
So, um, it kind of,

00:15:12.927 --> 00:15:14.048
there's a little bit of information in

00:15:14.068 --> 00:15:15.669
there, nothing super technical,

00:15:15.710 --> 00:15:16.049
but you know,

00:15:16.129 --> 00:15:17.890
Apple kind of touts all of the security

00:15:17.910 --> 00:15:19.211
features they built into their phones

00:15:19.251 --> 00:15:19.692
recently.

00:15:19.792 --> 00:15:20.332
Like, um,

00:15:21.245 --> 00:15:23.168
Biometric authentication with face ID,

00:15:23.229 --> 00:15:24.910
memory integrity enforcement.

00:15:26.793 --> 00:15:28.254
They say best-in-class encryption.

00:15:28.275 --> 00:15:30.759
I mean, I guess.

00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:33.081
Government has struggled to crack lockdown

00:15:33.121 --> 00:15:34.303
mode, and even in the past,

00:15:34.323 --> 00:15:35.705
just the regular encryption.

00:15:35.765 --> 00:15:37.528
So that's probably not terribly

00:15:37.567 --> 00:15:37.969
misleading.

00:15:39.370 --> 00:15:41.191
Um, yeah, they say that, uh,

00:15:41.211 --> 00:15:42.371
they have gone through,

00:15:43.212 --> 00:15:44.472
did they say there was an audit here?

00:15:44.493 --> 00:15:44.613
I mean,

00:15:44.673 --> 00:15:46.114
I'm assuming there was some kind of audit

00:15:46.134 --> 00:15:48.596
certification process, but, um, yeah,

00:15:48.775 --> 00:15:51.277
iPhones and iPads running iOS and iPad OS,

00:15:51.356 --> 00:15:54.960
OS are certified for NATO use in all

00:15:55.179 --> 00:15:56.100
nations.

00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:57.100
Um,

00:15:58.442 --> 00:15:59.743
I don't think I have too much to

00:15:59.822 --> 00:16:00.283
add to that.

00:16:00.363 --> 00:16:00.602
Again,

00:16:00.663 --> 00:16:02.803
it's a pretty self-explanatory headline,

00:16:02.844 --> 00:16:03.985
but I think it just really,

00:16:05.485 --> 00:16:08.187
really attests to Apple's security,

00:16:08.226 --> 00:16:09.768
which this is going to come up again

00:16:09.807 --> 00:16:10.448
later in the show.

00:16:10.489 --> 00:16:12.249
But I want to remind everyone watching

00:16:12.690 --> 00:16:14.691
that privacy and security and anonymity

00:16:14.791 --> 00:16:16.052
are all very different things.

00:16:16.091 --> 00:16:17.451
They're very distinct things.

00:16:18.173 --> 00:16:19.673
And they do complement each other.

00:16:19.712 --> 00:16:20.894
They do work together.

00:16:21.073 --> 00:16:21.654
And some of them,

00:16:21.715 --> 00:16:23.716
like security is how we enforce our

00:16:23.755 --> 00:16:24.775
privacy wishes, right?

00:16:24.796 --> 00:16:25.576
You know, with things like...

00:16:26.317 --> 00:16:27.839
just as a really low hanging fruit

00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:28.259
example,

00:16:28.599 --> 00:16:30.922
a password at its most basic form is

00:16:30.961 --> 00:16:33.043
designed to control who has access to an

00:16:33.083 --> 00:16:33.423
account.

00:16:33.443 --> 00:16:34.804
So that is kind of a form of

00:16:35.326 --> 00:16:37.207
privacy controlling who has that password

00:16:37.307 --> 00:16:38.067
in theory, at least.

00:16:38.509 --> 00:16:40.410
So yeah, Apple,

00:16:41.532 --> 00:16:42.952
we would definitely like to see them do

00:16:43.133 --> 00:16:44.234
more on the privacy front.

00:16:44.254 --> 00:16:45.775
There is of course room for improvement,

00:16:46.376 --> 00:16:47.518
but again, they are,

00:16:47.677 --> 00:16:49.500
they do make incredibly secure devices.

00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:50.740
And I think this is just kind of

00:16:51.451 --> 00:16:52.951
a further testament to that.

00:16:53.493 --> 00:16:54.572
One thing that's interesting is they say

00:16:54.614 --> 00:16:56.095
that this is the first consumer,

00:16:56.654 --> 00:16:58.476
first and only consumer devices in

00:16:58.537 --> 00:17:00.057
compliance with the information assurance

00:17:00.118 --> 00:17:02.038
requirements of NATO nations.

00:17:02.299 --> 00:17:05.561
So yeah, like I said,

00:17:05.582 --> 00:17:06.682
I don't have too much to add to

00:17:06.722 --> 00:17:06.923
that.

00:17:07.344 --> 00:17:07.703
Jonah,

00:17:07.743 --> 00:17:10.306
did you have any thoughts on this story?

00:17:10.867 --> 00:17:14.589
yeah so um it's very cool i think

00:17:14.809 --> 00:17:16.210
like you said according to this press

00:17:16.230 --> 00:17:17.651
release and as far as i know these

00:17:17.711 --> 00:17:19.811
are the only consumer devices that can

00:17:19.852 --> 00:17:22.113
handle any sort of nato classified

00:17:22.153 --> 00:17:24.894
information um which is a big

00:17:24.933 --> 00:17:27.556
accomplishment for for apple the auditing

00:17:28.395 --> 00:17:32.157
process um for any of this is uh

00:17:32.198 --> 00:17:34.618
fairly extensive and i think it's probably

00:17:34.679 --> 00:17:34.818
no

00:17:36.413 --> 00:17:40.234
surprised that one of the best phones we

00:17:40.454 --> 00:17:43.076
already know for in terms of security can

00:17:43.115 --> 00:17:43.615
pass this.

00:17:43.695 --> 00:17:47.917
But it is just more evidence that a

00:17:47.958 --> 00:17:49.518
lot of the safeguards in place on these

00:17:49.538 --> 00:17:52.419
devices are functional and work as

00:17:52.459 --> 00:17:53.539
expected and can be trusted.

00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:56.701
audits like this aren't the end all be

00:17:56.761 --> 00:17:58.482
all of security by any means.

00:17:59.364 --> 00:18:01.025
And they mostly make sure there's no like

00:18:01.086 --> 00:18:02.185
super obvious mistakes,

00:18:02.226 --> 00:18:03.607
but they don't test for everything.

00:18:03.667 --> 00:18:07.270
And so it's not like a complete assurance

00:18:07.611 --> 00:18:09.051
that these phones are unhackable.

00:18:09.592 --> 00:18:10.692
And indeed,

00:18:10.993 --> 00:18:12.394
like if we look at the level of

00:18:12.434 --> 00:18:13.154
classified

00:18:14.016 --> 00:18:16.057
data that these phones are now able to

00:18:16.097 --> 00:18:16.518
handle,

00:18:17.038 --> 00:18:18.638
which is the NATO restricted level.

00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.142
That's out of the four classification

00:18:22.182 --> 00:18:23.142
levels that NATO has.

00:18:23.182 --> 00:18:24.222
That's the lowest one.

00:18:25.443 --> 00:18:27.945
You don't even necessarily need a

00:18:28.066 --> 00:18:29.987
specialized security clearance in order to

00:18:30.126 --> 00:18:32.729
access NATO restricted information.

00:18:32.848 --> 00:18:33.028
So

00:18:34.450 --> 00:18:34.690
you know,

00:18:35.090 --> 00:18:37.211
the most top secret governments are the

00:18:37.231 --> 00:18:39.573
most top secret documents that NATO has

00:18:40.953 --> 00:18:42.875
are not going to be stored on iPhones

00:18:42.934 --> 00:18:43.635
anytime soon.

00:18:44.056 --> 00:18:46.657
But it is interesting that like a full

00:18:46.778 --> 00:18:49.578
operating system and especially a consumer

00:18:49.719 --> 00:18:52.020
one is now able to handle this data

00:18:52.060 --> 00:18:55.923
because typically you would see like a

00:18:55.982 --> 00:18:58.625
NATO restricted classification limited to

00:18:58.744 --> 00:18:59.404
something like a

00:19:01.386 --> 00:19:03.948
A lot of those USB drives that have

00:19:03.988 --> 00:19:05.528
hardware encryption and a pin that you

00:19:05.608 --> 00:19:05.990
enter,

00:19:07.330 --> 00:19:11.593
some of those will be NATO-restricted in

00:19:12.074 --> 00:19:13.355
terms of security, which is good,

00:19:13.394 --> 00:19:15.175
but those are obviously much simpler

00:19:15.215 --> 00:19:15.736
devices.

00:19:15.756 --> 00:19:17.176
They just have to handle encryption,

00:19:17.196 --> 00:19:18.097
and that's pretty much it.

00:19:19.058 --> 00:19:20.078
Whereas an iPhone is a...

00:19:21.380 --> 00:19:24.301
complicated device and obviously more

00:19:24.721 --> 00:19:27.803
challenging to guarantee the security of

00:19:27.843 --> 00:19:28.683
those documents on it.

00:19:30.065 --> 00:19:31.325
And so yeah,

00:19:31.464 --> 00:19:35.488
it is a big step for Apple to

00:19:35.548 --> 00:19:36.107
have this done.

00:19:36.548 --> 00:19:38.449
I don't know what the process is for

00:19:41.249 --> 00:19:44.412
like a company like apple or a os

00:19:44.451 --> 00:19:47.334
developer to get nato certified i don't

00:19:47.354 --> 00:19:50.776
know if that is something that um like

00:19:50.816 --> 00:19:52.538
the company itself would have to reach out

00:19:53.238 --> 00:19:55.220
for and pay to get certified i would

00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.963
imagine um it typically is and so thinking

00:20:00.003 --> 00:20:02.786
about like this being the first consumer

00:20:02.826 --> 00:20:06.848
device to be to be certified to handle

00:20:06.888 --> 00:20:08.150
nato restricted information

00:20:09.530 --> 00:20:11.031
That might not be that surprising because

00:20:11.051 --> 00:20:12.933
I would imagine a lot of consumer devices

00:20:12.973 --> 00:20:14.895
probably are not willing to undergo the

00:20:14.996 --> 00:20:17.798
effort to get this certification and audit

00:20:17.878 --> 00:20:18.619
in the first place.

00:20:19.760 --> 00:20:21.362
Thinking about like Graphene OS we just

00:20:21.382 --> 00:20:21.883
talked about,

00:20:24.644 --> 00:20:26.605
I can't imagine they would have the

00:20:26.645 --> 00:20:29.186
resources to do like a comprehensive audit

00:20:29.227 --> 00:20:32.907
to be certified to handle NATO restricted

00:20:32.988 --> 00:20:33.567
information,

00:20:33.708 --> 00:20:36.308
even if the operating system is

00:20:36.388 --> 00:20:37.868
theoretically secure enough to do that.

00:20:37.949 --> 00:20:41.250
So there is that takeaway that I would

00:20:41.270 --> 00:20:41.611
think about.

00:20:41.691 --> 00:20:42.330
I don't think

00:20:43.291 --> 00:20:44.271
And for that reason,

00:20:44.752 --> 00:20:47.694
I wouldn't consider iPhones to be the most

00:20:47.734 --> 00:20:49.036
secure devices in the world now or

00:20:49.056 --> 00:20:49.776
anything like that.

00:20:50.636 --> 00:20:54.720
But it is certainly a good sign for

00:20:54.740 --> 00:20:58.942
them at the very least.

00:20:58.982 --> 00:20:59.423
For sure.

00:21:01.084 --> 00:21:02.125
I don't have anything to add to that,

00:21:02.144 --> 00:21:03.865
but we did have a few questions in

00:21:03.885 --> 00:21:05.527
the chat I thought might be fun to

00:21:05.567 --> 00:21:06.228
talk about.

00:21:06.928 --> 00:21:07.628
Yeah.

00:21:07.669 --> 00:21:09.369
Dyson Fan said,

00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:10.671
do you think this will be affected by

00:21:10.691 --> 00:21:11.611
the war in the Middle East?

00:21:15.201 --> 00:21:15.840
I don't think so.

00:21:15.941 --> 00:21:17.001
I think overall,

00:21:17.182 --> 00:21:18.323
I know there's a big push in Europe

00:21:18.343 --> 00:21:19.723
right now for digital sovereignty.

00:21:21.105 --> 00:21:22.507
I think one of the reasons that NATO

00:21:22.527 --> 00:21:25.489
would view Apple as a maybe less risky

00:21:25.528 --> 00:21:27.310
company compared to someone like Microsoft

00:21:27.411 --> 00:21:27.510
is...

00:21:28.290 --> 00:21:29.991
Putting aside the fact that Microsoft has

00:21:30.031 --> 00:21:31.772
been hacked by China more times than I

00:21:31.792 --> 00:21:32.192
can count.

00:21:33.813 --> 00:21:35.894
I think Apple does have a history of

00:21:35.973 --> 00:21:36.634
pushing back.

00:21:37.075 --> 00:21:37.714
Not all the time.

00:21:38.055 --> 00:21:39.036
Definitely not all the time.

00:21:39.155 --> 00:21:40.375
I'm not defending Apple here.

00:21:40.855 --> 00:21:42.317
There's times they should have pushed back

00:21:42.336 --> 00:21:42.876
that they didn't.

00:21:43.396 --> 00:21:44.617
But they do have a history,

00:21:44.738 --> 00:21:45.637
especially in the U.S.,

00:21:45.718 --> 00:21:47.239
of pushing back against government data

00:21:47.259 --> 00:21:47.719
requests.

00:21:47.919 --> 00:21:49.539
And I don't know.

00:21:49.660 --> 00:21:50.861
I would just imagine that kind of...

00:21:52.026 --> 00:21:53.866
makes the the geopolitical landscape a

00:21:53.886 --> 00:21:57.529
little bit more uh nuanced i guess um

00:21:57.589 --> 00:21:58.769
in terms of why they might be willing

00:21:58.789 --> 00:22:03.554
to trust someone like apple but um and

00:22:03.574 --> 00:22:05.994
then yeah jordan just real quick said i

00:22:06.015 --> 00:22:07.316
wonder what they use for computers because

00:22:07.336 --> 00:22:08.696
mac wasn't included i don't know that's a

00:22:08.717 --> 00:22:10.877
good question i know uh germany

00:22:10.917 --> 00:22:12.179
specifically i know there's a few states

00:22:12.199 --> 00:22:13.559
in germany that are like switching over to

00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:15.901
linux and and uh libra office and stuff

00:22:15.921 --> 00:22:17.663
like that but i don't know about nato

00:22:17.682 --> 00:22:18.883
as a whole that is a really good

00:22:18.903 --> 00:22:19.243
question so

00:22:21.181 --> 00:22:23.663
yeah i'm not sure i mean as far

00:22:23.703 --> 00:22:25.527
as like the war in the middle east

00:22:26.989 --> 00:22:29.752
i nato is i know the us is

00:22:29.772 --> 00:22:31.815
a part of nato but the us typically

00:22:32.375 --> 00:22:33.917
when it comes to like classified

00:22:33.958 --> 00:22:35.701
information or military stuff they

00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:38.362
kind of do their own thing and they

00:22:38.382 --> 00:22:39.884
have their own requirements for all of

00:22:39.924 --> 00:22:40.125
this.

00:22:40.746 --> 00:22:43.670
A lot of the NATO specific stuff like

00:22:43.690 --> 00:22:44.990
this certification, for example,

00:22:45.030 --> 00:22:47.314
is going to apply more to European

00:22:47.374 --> 00:22:50.719
countries than the U.S.

00:22:50.778 --> 00:22:51.599
in its own interest.

00:22:51.740 --> 00:22:51.901
So...

00:22:52.861 --> 00:22:53.922
There is that to think about too.

00:22:54.061 --> 00:22:57.884
I believe iOS and other Apple devices have

00:22:58.003 --> 00:23:01.826
been certified for a variety of US

00:23:01.846 --> 00:23:03.446
government security standards for quite

00:23:03.467 --> 00:23:03.807
some time,

00:23:03.846 --> 00:23:06.989
but I don't remember exactly what level

00:23:07.709 --> 00:23:09.470
they would be certified at or if it's

00:23:09.490 --> 00:23:10.911
comparable to this.

00:23:10.990 --> 00:23:13.092
I'd have to do more research into that.

00:23:13.892 --> 00:23:18.855
Cool.

00:23:18.875 --> 00:23:19.795
Yeah.

00:23:19.835 --> 00:23:21.096
I mean, that was a pretty quick story,

00:23:21.336 --> 00:23:21.536
but

00:23:22.943 --> 00:23:24.163
That was all I had on that one.

00:23:25.404 --> 00:23:28.185
Yeah, before we go on... Oh, yeah.

00:23:29.385 --> 00:23:30.266
Let's talk about this.

00:23:30.506 --> 00:23:33.866
So this story was reported by TechCrunch

00:23:33.926 --> 00:23:34.127
here.

00:23:34.508 --> 00:23:37.489
Meta sued over AI smart glasses privacy

00:23:37.509 --> 00:23:39.828
concerns after workers reviewed nudity,

00:23:39.949 --> 00:23:41.609
sex, and other footage.

00:23:42.269 --> 00:23:43.310
According to TechCrunch,

00:23:43.391 --> 00:23:45.531
Meta is facing a new class action lawsuit

00:23:45.612 --> 00:23:47.792
over its AI smart glasses and their lack

00:23:47.833 --> 00:23:50.295
of privacy after an investigation by

00:23:50.394 --> 00:23:52.655
Swedish newspapers found that workers at a

00:23:52.756 --> 00:23:55.778
Kenya-based subcontractor are reviewing

00:23:55.817 --> 00:23:57.338
footage from customers' glasses,

00:23:57.398 --> 00:23:59.359
which included sensitive content like

00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:00.681
nudity, people having sex,

00:24:00.760 --> 00:24:01.701
and using the toilet.

00:24:02.582 --> 00:24:04.703
Meta claimed it was blurring faces and

00:24:04.763 --> 00:24:05.125
images,

00:24:05.184 --> 00:24:07.646
but sources disputed that this blurring

00:24:07.686 --> 00:24:09.388
consistently worked.

00:24:09.729 --> 00:24:11.790
The news prompted the UK regulator,

00:24:11.830 --> 00:24:14.133
the Information Commissioner's Office,

00:24:14.192 --> 00:24:16.115
to investigate the matter.

00:24:17.015 --> 00:24:19.057
Now the tech giant is facing a lawsuit

00:24:19.076 --> 00:24:20.117
in the United States as well.

00:24:20.439 --> 00:24:21.599
In the newly filed complaint,

00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:24.001
plaintiffs Gina Barton of New Jersey and

00:24:24.041 --> 00:24:26.324
Mateo Canu of California,

00:24:26.463 --> 00:24:28.405
represented by the public interest-focused

00:24:28.866 --> 00:24:31.333
orcs and law firm alleged that meta

00:24:31.472 --> 00:24:34.420
violated privacy laws and engaged in false

00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:36.965
advertising um

00:24:38.896 --> 00:24:41.117
So, I mean, looking at this story,

00:24:41.377 --> 00:24:43.698
my immediate reaction is like, well, yeah,

00:24:43.738 --> 00:24:45.979
of course this would happen if you strap

00:24:46.138 --> 00:24:47.818
cameras to your face that are constantly

00:24:47.878 --> 00:24:50.400
streaming to a big tech company.

00:24:51.740 --> 00:24:54.300
And this is really a problem that we've

00:24:54.401 --> 00:24:57.882
seen over and over before.

00:24:58.362 --> 00:25:00.423
The one that most immediately comes to

00:25:00.482 --> 00:25:01.002
mind is

00:25:02.702 --> 00:25:04.844
was pretty much a very similar situation

00:25:04.884 --> 00:25:07.305
with Siri recordings.

00:25:07.825 --> 00:25:09.884
And those weren't video at the very least,

00:25:09.964 --> 00:25:10.546
unlike this,

00:25:10.625 --> 00:25:12.665
but they were being sent to a bunch

00:25:12.705 --> 00:25:16.527
of contractors for review when that was

00:25:16.606 --> 00:25:18.528
not clearly stated in Apple's privacy

00:25:18.567 --> 00:25:19.048
policy.

00:25:19.488 --> 00:25:20.988
I believe there have been similar cases

00:25:21.008 --> 00:25:23.969
with other voice recording systems like

00:25:24.068 --> 00:25:24.669
Alexa.

00:25:26.269 --> 00:25:26.769
And so

00:25:30.028 --> 00:25:33.631
it's it's just a sign that these these

00:25:33.671 --> 00:25:35.332
big tech companies they're not going to be

00:25:35.372 --> 00:25:37.311
treating your data properly and they're

00:25:37.333 --> 00:25:39.212
not going to be giving it the production

00:25:39.232 --> 00:25:40.534
that it needs because they are more

00:25:40.594 --> 00:25:42.394
interested in consuming all of this data

00:25:42.414 --> 00:25:46.777
as much as possible and like having a

00:25:46.817 --> 00:25:49.397
bunch of random people contractors whoever

00:25:49.518 --> 00:25:52.519
review all of it to supposedly probably

00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.560
improve their ai services and other things

00:25:54.601 --> 00:25:55.000
that they

00:25:55.560 --> 00:25:58.201
that they're working on just with complete

00:25:58.221 --> 00:26:01.021
disregard to your own privacy or personal

00:26:01.041 --> 00:26:01.342
data.

00:26:02.122 --> 00:26:04.923
And so, yeah,

00:26:05.002 --> 00:26:07.363
hopefully there's a big punishment for

00:26:07.403 --> 00:26:07.923
meta here,

00:26:07.962 --> 00:26:10.144
but I can't imagine a lot is going

00:26:10.183 --> 00:26:11.284
to change.

00:26:11.324 --> 00:26:12.003
Unfortunately,

00:26:12.084 --> 00:26:16.484
I think that we need to be aware

00:26:16.505 --> 00:26:18.125
of these dangers and we really need to

00:26:18.224 --> 00:26:22.986
just eliminate devices like this from

00:26:23.046 --> 00:26:23.786
everyday use.

00:26:24.817 --> 00:26:28.219
it's a bit crazy to me um how

00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:29.778
much things have changed in the past ten

00:26:29.798 --> 00:26:32.339
years because i remember back when um

00:26:32.539 --> 00:26:35.520
google glass originally came out um and

00:26:35.540 --> 00:26:37.521
there was this glass holes term for people

00:26:37.561 --> 00:26:39.501
who wore it and were constantly recording

00:26:39.541 --> 00:26:42.903
in public spaces and now all of this

00:26:42.923 --> 00:26:44.683
stuff is kind of being normalized

00:26:44.723 --> 00:26:46.104
unfortunately and there isn't as much

00:26:46.523 --> 00:26:48.765
pushback anymore and i think that we

00:26:50.244 --> 00:26:51.705
need to revisit that because I don't think

00:26:51.766 --> 00:26:54.067
we were we were wrong back in those

00:26:54.107 --> 00:26:54.347
days.

00:26:54.407 --> 00:26:55.929
I think that we we were on to

00:26:55.989 --> 00:26:59.029
something and maybe we should remember how

00:26:59.069 --> 00:27:04.913
much we dislike products like this again.

00:27:04.993 --> 00:27:06.273
Yeah, totally agree that.

00:27:06.674 --> 00:27:07.055
Honestly,

00:27:07.075 --> 00:27:08.796
that was something that really confused me

00:27:08.855 --> 00:27:09.276
too.

00:27:10.477 --> 00:27:12.178
With the whole like you mentioned Google

00:27:12.218 --> 00:27:12.657
Glasses.

00:27:12.817 --> 00:27:15.799
I remember when when those came out,

00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:17.601
and they were such a flop.

00:27:18.609 --> 00:27:20.830
And so when Meta announced their AI

00:27:20.851 --> 00:27:22.151
glasses, I was like, okay,

00:27:22.171 --> 00:27:23.351
we've already been down this road.

00:27:24.010 --> 00:27:25.531
And I know, I think even before Meta,

00:27:25.571 --> 00:27:27.352
I think Snap had announced their glasses,

00:27:27.372 --> 00:27:28.673
and then I never heard of them again,

00:27:28.692 --> 00:27:29.752
which I think those exist.

00:27:30.353 --> 00:27:31.993
But I don't know.

00:27:32.513 --> 00:27:33.534
I never hear about them anymore.

00:27:33.894 --> 00:27:35.114
So my point being, I was like, oh,

00:27:35.134 --> 00:27:35.994
this isn't going to go anywhere.

00:27:36.075 --> 00:27:37.575
And now I think this article said that

00:27:38.174 --> 00:27:40.596
last year they shipped like seven million

00:27:40.695 --> 00:27:41.336
of these things.

00:27:41.375 --> 00:27:42.576
Hold on, where was it in this thing?

00:27:43.457 --> 00:27:43.576
But...

00:27:45.573 --> 00:27:46.453
Yeah, while I look for that,

00:27:46.753 --> 00:27:48.414
it just blew my mind that it's like,

00:27:48.454 --> 00:27:50.257
wait, yeah, in twenty twenty five,

00:27:50.336 --> 00:27:51.998
over seven million people bought meta

00:27:52.038 --> 00:27:52.719
smart glasses.

00:27:52.838 --> 00:27:53.318
And it's like,

00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:56.580
how did it like what's different this time

00:27:56.621 --> 00:27:58.803
that it worked when it did not last

00:27:58.843 --> 00:27:59.103
time?

00:27:59.202 --> 00:28:00.124
I'm very confused.

00:28:01.865 --> 00:28:03.987
I think it's got to be like.

00:28:05.635 --> 00:28:06.915
Are they making it fashionable?

00:28:06.935 --> 00:28:09.616
I know the Ray-Ban partnership must have a

00:28:09.676 --> 00:28:10.477
lot to do with that.

00:28:10.497 --> 00:28:14.179
Are people willing to give in and use

00:28:14.219 --> 00:28:14.338
it?

00:28:14.419 --> 00:28:16.538
Yeah, if they're partnered with like,

00:28:17.278 --> 00:28:18.900
more recognizable brands.

00:28:21.099 --> 00:28:22.780
Kind of an unfortunate way to shop,

00:28:22.901 --> 00:28:25.521
but I think that might be it for

00:28:25.541 --> 00:28:26.122
a lot of people.

00:28:27.748 --> 00:28:28.587
I mean, that does, yeah,

00:28:28.928 --> 00:28:29.769
that could be it.

00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:31.469
I mean, maybe it's the AI part.

00:28:31.528 --> 00:28:34.069
Like, I have said before that, like,

00:28:34.190 --> 00:28:36.451
I get on paper, I get the idea,

00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:38.872
because I'm convinced I have, like,

00:28:38.892 --> 00:28:40.593
a mild form of face blindness,

00:28:41.053 --> 00:28:42.712
and I run into people all the time.

00:28:43.294 --> 00:28:44.193
I mean, not obviously, like,

00:28:44.233 --> 00:28:45.654
with someone like you that I work with

00:28:45.674 --> 00:28:46.835
all the time and I see every week,

00:28:46.894 --> 00:28:48.035
I know you, but, like,

00:28:48.115 --> 00:28:49.655
I run into people all the time that

00:28:49.675 --> 00:28:51.416
they're like, oh, hey, Nate, it's me,

00:28:51.457 --> 00:28:52.237
so-and-so, and I'm just like,

00:28:53.217 --> 00:28:53.737
who are you?

00:28:54.376 --> 00:28:55.238
And then when they're like, oh,

00:28:55.278 --> 00:28:56.458
we like did this thing together.

00:28:56.478 --> 00:28:57.938
And I'm like, oh yes, yes.

00:28:57.978 --> 00:28:59.098
Like I'm a contextual person.

00:28:59.118 --> 00:29:00.659
When you tell me like how I know

00:29:00.699 --> 00:29:01.539
you, then I remember,

00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:03.680
but I'm so bad with names and faces.

00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:04.820
So I would love the idea of like

00:29:04.941 --> 00:29:06.980
AI glasses that tell me like,

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.082
do the facial recognition, like, oh,

00:29:08.122 --> 00:29:09.362
you know, this person from this,

00:29:09.422 --> 00:29:10.682
like save me that whole step.

00:29:11.122 --> 00:29:12.782
But I don't want it pinging back to

00:29:12.803 --> 00:29:13.262
the cloud,

00:29:13.303 --> 00:29:14.262
which of course it would have to do

00:29:14.303 --> 00:29:14.743
to do that.

00:29:15.084 --> 00:29:15.824
But my point being is like,

00:29:15.884 --> 00:29:16.644
I get it on paper,

00:29:16.663 --> 00:29:18.025
but I still can't believe that like they

00:29:18.065 --> 00:29:18.505
managed to

00:29:19.565 --> 00:29:21.266
to actually like make it stick this time

00:29:21.306 --> 00:29:23.048
it's so weird to me well and i

00:29:23.087 --> 00:29:24.929
mean it it doesn't have to do that

00:29:24.989 --> 00:29:27.871
necessarily ping to the cloud i know not

00:29:27.891 --> 00:29:31.232
that i would advocate for this product to

00:29:31.272 --> 00:29:34.214
exist necessarily but certainly facial

00:29:34.255 --> 00:29:35.836
recognition that's something that has been

00:29:35.876 --> 00:29:37.518
around for for quite some time and

00:29:38.238 --> 00:29:38.397
well,

00:29:38.438 --> 00:29:40.539
you would need to have a local database

00:29:40.579 --> 00:29:41.900
in your contacts or whatever.

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:43.480
I do think a lot of people will

00:29:43.520 --> 00:29:45.422
already use this feature in the Apple

00:29:45.442 --> 00:29:47.503
Photos app or the Photos app on their

00:29:47.943 --> 00:29:49.565
Android phone that automatically

00:29:49.644 --> 00:29:51.645
classifies faces and you can put a name

00:29:52.046 --> 00:29:52.346
for it.

00:29:52.406 --> 00:29:54.048
I think that's a fairly popular feature

00:29:54.067 --> 00:29:56.449
that runs entirely locally.

00:29:56.548 --> 00:30:00.651
And extending that to a basic device like

00:30:00.691 --> 00:30:00.932
this,

00:30:01.011 --> 00:30:02.752
even if it has to ping your phone

00:30:02.772 --> 00:30:04.773
to run this computation,

00:30:06.954 --> 00:30:10.938
Certainly it's not necessary to ping

00:30:10.978 --> 00:30:12.358
servers if you don't want it to,

00:30:12.439 --> 00:30:14.160
but big tech companies are very

00:30:16.137 --> 00:30:19.700
disincentivized to do anything locally

00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:22.761
because there is so much data that they

00:30:22.781 --> 00:30:24.883
can slurp up with their servers and use

00:30:25.242 --> 00:30:27.964
for all sorts of AI and other purposes.

00:30:28.724 --> 00:30:29.265
And of course,

00:30:30.306 --> 00:30:33.268
we'll talk about a future story here in

00:30:33.307 --> 00:30:35.548
the show about these AI companies

00:30:35.588 --> 00:30:37.369
partnering with people who you probably

00:30:38.009 --> 00:30:39.131
don't want them to be.

00:30:40.550 --> 00:30:42.372
So that's the kind of direction that all

00:30:42.412 --> 00:30:45.792
of this puts us in.

00:30:46.133 --> 00:30:50.134
And yeah, it's not great.

00:30:50.193 --> 00:30:52.874
And it certainly doesn't have to be this

00:30:52.913 --> 00:30:53.454
way.

00:30:54.214 --> 00:30:56.194
Just because this is the way that Meta

00:30:56.234 --> 00:30:57.816
has decided to make this product doesn't

00:30:57.836 --> 00:30:59.355
mean it's the only way that this product

00:30:59.375 --> 00:31:00.076
has to exist.

00:31:00.155 --> 00:31:02.537
And I think that that's really important

00:31:02.557 --> 00:31:02.977
to remember.

00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:05.840
For sure.

00:31:07.402 --> 00:31:07.642
Yeah,

00:31:07.662 --> 00:31:09.383
two things I wanted to add real quick

00:31:09.522 --> 00:31:11.044
in response to redacted,

00:31:11.544 --> 00:31:12.904
said someone needs to make glasses that

00:31:12.984 --> 00:31:14.424
beams lasers at cameras as you walk

00:31:14.444 --> 00:31:14.685
around.

00:31:15.506 --> 00:31:17.126
That's probably destruction of property.

00:31:17.446 --> 00:31:18.227
There is an app,

00:31:18.867 --> 00:31:20.347
this is not an official recommendation

00:31:20.567 --> 00:31:21.949
because we haven't really vetted it,

00:31:22.429 --> 00:31:24.230
but I know there is an app that's

00:31:24.250 --> 00:31:27.932
supposed to warn you if there are people

00:31:27.971 --> 00:31:29.712
nearby wearing smart glasses,

00:31:29.752 --> 00:31:30.573
not just the meta ones,

00:31:30.593 --> 00:31:31.753
but also the snap ones and

00:31:32.348 --> 00:31:32.729
Apparently,

00:31:32.769 --> 00:31:33.909
there's more than just those two,

00:31:33.989 --> 00:31:36.289
but I do have it on my phone.

00:31:36.609 --> 00:31:38.549
It has not pinged me yet,

00:31:39.069 --> 00:31:40.830
although I don't know if I live in

00:31:40.851 --> 00:31:42.631
an area where people are not using them.

00:31:42.770 --> 00:31:44.731
I don't know if it's maybe just false

00:31:44.771 --> 00:31:45.251
negatives.

00:31:45.612 --> 00:31:46.551
Your mileage may vary,

00:31:46.592 --> 00:31:47.692
but it is fully open source.

00:31:47.711 --> 00:31:48.772
You can go take a look at it.

00:31:48.792 --> 00:31:50.673
I will say,

00:31:52.772 --> 00:31:54.534
I've never seen any of these in person

00:31:54.574 --> 00:31:54.854
myself.

00:31:54.894 --> 00:31:56.354
I don't know what area these are super

00:31:56.413 --> 00:31:59.055
popular in, but not around me yet.

00:32:00.579 --> 00:32:00.779
Yeah,

00:32:00.819 --> 00:32:03.162
and I've had situations where somebody's

00:32:03.201 --> 00:32:05.163
got the big glasses and there's a screw

00:32:05.182 --> 00:32:06.884
in the front, and I've asked them,

00:32:07.243 --> 00:32:08.644
and I try not to sound like I'm

00:32:08.684 --> 00:32:09.285
upset about it,

00:32:09.325 --> 00:32:11.226
because if they think I'm angry,

00:32:11.266 --> 00:32:12.346
they're definitely going to say no.

00:32:12.846 --> 00:32:14.428
But I've asked people, I'm like, hey,

00:32:14.647 --> 00:32:15.729
this is totally out of left field,

00:32:15.749 --> 00:32:17.650
but are those the meta smart glasses?

00:32:17.710 --> 00:32:18.730
And they're always like, no, no,

00:32:18.750 --> 00:32:19.852
they're just whatevers.

00:32:20.991 --> 00:32:22.813
So I haven't run into anybody yet,

00:32:22.853 --> 00:32:23.792
but yeah.

00:32:24.953 --> 00:32:25.794
And then the other thing I was going

00:32:25.814 --> 00:32:26.875
to say just real quick to add some

00:32:26.934 --> 00:32:27.875
context to this article,

00:32:27.974 --> 00:32:30.896
it says that the reason there's a lawsuit

00:32:30.977 --> 00:32:33.278
is because Meta's advertising specifically

00:32:33.317 --> 00:32:34.738
says, and I quote,

00:32:35.117 --> 00:32:36.439
you're in control of your data and

00:32:36.479 --> 00:32:37.058
content.

00:32:37.338 --> 00:32:38.759
And then there was like another quote

00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:39.200
there too.

00:32:39.220 --> 00:32:40.780
Yeah.

00:32:42.212 --> 00:32:42.452
I don't know.

00:32:42.472 --> 00:32:42.772
I lost it.

00:32:42.913 --> 00:32:44.154
Oh, built for privacy,

00:32:44.214 --> 00:32:45.976
designed for privacy, controlled by you.

00:32:46.415 --> 00:32:46.997
So, yeah,

00:32:47.096 --> 00:32:48.357
it's it's I think they've got it.

00:32:48.817 --> 00:32:49.778
I hope I'm not a lawyer,

00:32:49.818 --> 00:32:50.960
but I feel like they've got a really

00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.382
solid case here that if Meta is going

00:32:53.422 --> 00:32:53.682
to.

00:32:53.862 --> 00:32:54.222
And I mean,

00:32:55.123 --> 00:32:56.765
all of the veterans listening know that

00:32:56.785 --> 00:32:58.425
this is like, oh, no, Meta lied.

00:32:58.465 --> 00:33:01.147
Like the what's the Captain Kirk William

00:33:01.167 --> 00:33:01.807
Shatner like?

00:33:02.568 --> 00:33:03.269
Shocked face.

00:33:03.328 --> 00:33:06.171
But when you explicitly say in your

00:33:06.230 --> 00:33:08.092
advertising that like you control your

00:33:08.132 --> 00:33:10.252
data and then find out that there was

00:33:10.292 --> 00:33:12.534
no toggle not to submit the footage and

00:33:12.574 --> 00:33:13.474
people are reviewing it.

00:33:14.394 --> 00:33:15.455
I think I put this in the newsletter

00:33:15.476 --> 00:33:17.356
that went out actually for this episode

00:33:17.396 --> 00:33:17.557
that.

00:33:19.077 --> 00:33:20.239
As much as we've talked about these

00:33:20.259 --> 00:33:20.559
things,

00:33:20.619 --> 00:33:22.161
we kind of blew over that part where

00:33:22.181 --> 00:33:24.983
it's like part of training AI is that

00:33:25.023 --> 00:33:26.465
people have to review it,

00:33:26.806 --> 00:33:28.008
even if only every now and then.

00:33:28.048 --> 00:33:30.230
People have to review it and make sure

00:33:30.250 --> 00:33:31.811
it's working and correct it,

00:33:33.374 --> 00:33:34.335
which is a whole other thing.

00:33:34.875 --> 00:33:36.556
worm bag of worms that we're not going

00:33:36.576 --> 00:33:38.196
to get into right now but i i

00:33:38.217 --> 00:33:39.498
think it's funny that like for you and

00:33:39.738 --> 00:33:41.279
you and me like that never even came

00:33:41.299 --> 00:33:42.680
up once because we just thought that was

00:33:42.701 --> 00:33:44.481
kind of a given i guess or for

00:33:44.521 --> 00:33:45.883
whatever reason like we never even thought

00:33:45.923 --> 00:33:47.124
to mention that that like hey by the

00:33:47.144 --> 00:33:49.464
way there is no world in which people

00:33:49.525 --> 00:33:51.226
will not see so at least some of

00:33:51.266 --> 00:33:52.747
the images and footage taken by these

00:33:52.767 --> 00:33:53.228
videos so yeah

00:33:58.031 --> 00:34:00.531
um one of our team members uh jordan

00:34:01.413 --> 00:34:04.953
asked sorry i'll let you do it what

00:34:05.013 --> 00:34:06.794
protection do people have against being

00:34:06.854 --> 00:34:10.414
recorded in public um which is a great

00:34:10.454 --> 00:34:12.115
question unfortunately i think the answer

00:34:12.155 --> 00:34:13.516
in most countries including here in the

00:34:13.556 --> 00:34:15.956
united states is not much but i think

00:34:15.996 --> 00:34:17.797
that this is a good example of

00:34:18.838 --> 00:34:22.400
um i think why data privacy concerns are

00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:24.460
certainly not only a technical issue

00:34:24.501 --> 00:34:27.001
because people very often get caught up in

00:34:27.021 --> 00:34:28.663
this um trying to think of technical

00:34:28.682 --> 00:34:30.463
solutions and i do like unredacted

00:34:30.503 --> 00:34:33.324
suggestion of lasers being beamed at

00:34:33.364 --> 00:34:35.226
cameras as you walk around but at the

00:34:35.266 --> 00:34:38.007
end of the day um the the best

00:34:38.047 --> 00:34:39.648
way to prevent something like this is to

00:34:39.708 --> 00:34:42.389
get strong data privacy laws

00:34:43.710 --> 00:34:46.711
out there that would prevent people from

00:34:46.771 --> 00:34:49.393
doing this and using your data without

00:34:49.413 --> 00:34:49.934
your consent.

00:34:49.974 --> 00:34:51.875
Because I don't think that just being out

00:34:51.914 --> 00:34:55.717
in public or walking around is necessarily

00:34:57.257 --> 00:35:00.579
consent to be recorded and filmed and that

00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:03.402
footage stored permanently for the rest of

00:35:03.481 --> 00:35:04.782
time, right?

00:35:04.862 --> 00:35:05.083
It's

00:35:08.246 --> 00:35:10.588
We really have to rethink our relationship

00:35:10.608 --> 00:35:11.989
with technology and privacy.

00:35:12.429 --> 00:35:18.416
And we can't just apply past norms to

00:35:18.456 --> 00:35:19.898
the current state of what we're in.

00:35:19.938 --> 00:35:20.458
But of course,

00:35:20.498 --> 00:35:22.400
there are so many incentives to not do

00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:24.061
this that I think people need to be

00:35:24.561 --> 00:35:25.724
more vocal about.

00:35:27.144 --> 00:35:28.005
You know,

00:35:28.146 --> 00:35:29.987
we've talked about this in the past few

00:35:30.128 --> 00:35:30.688
episodes,

00:35:30.829 --> 00:35:33.211
but even governments are getting in on

00:35:33.231 --> 00:35:35.414
this like constant mass surveillance via

00:35:35.614 --> 00:35:37.335
companies like Flock, for example,

00:35:38.456 --> 00:35:40.559
just constantly trying to collect as much

00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:41.920
data as possible and seeing

00:35:42.702 --> 00:35:43.543
what they can do with it.

00:35:43.623 --> 00:35:44.503
And in a lot of cases,

00:35:44.583 --> 00:35:46.784
I think they don't really know what they

00:35:46.804 --> 00:35:47.485
can do with it yet.

00:35:47.545 --> 00:35:49.907
I think meta with these glasses probably

00:35:49.927 --> 00:35:51.369
doesn't know what they can do with the

00:35:51.389 --> 00:35:51.989
data yet.

00:35:52.148 --> 00:35:54.771
But they're collecting it all in the hopes

00:35:54.811 --> 00:35:56.552
that they can do something with it.

00:35:58.954 --> 00:36:01.356
And that that's, that's not good.

00:36:01.496 --> 00:36:04.918
And I don't think we should allow that.

00:36:04.938 --> 00:36:06.119
So hopefully, so hopefully,

00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:06.699
that can change.

00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:10.599
Yeah, the only technical solution,

00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:12.420
quote unquote solution that came to mind

00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:14.360
was I really want to buy some and

00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:15.440
review them one of these days.

00:36:15.501 --> 00:36:17.201
But I know you've probably heard of

00:36:17.260 --> 00:36:19.862
there's a company that makes glasses that

00:36:19.882 --> 00:36:21.722
they've got a few different models and one

00:36:21.742 --> 00:36:24.403
of them is supposed to reflect IR.

00:36:24.523 --> 00:36:26.284
So they look like relatively normal

00:36:26.304 --> 00:36:26.784
glasses,

00:36:26.824 --> 00:36:28.144
depending on how you feel about the style

00:36:28.184 --> 00:36:28.344
of them.

00:36:28.945 --> 00:36:30.985
But the frames are designed to very

00:36:31.045 --> 00:36:33.847
invisibly reflect light back to a camera.

00:36:34.208 --> 00:36:35.768
And it's mostly for facial recognition if

00:36:35.867 --> 00:36:37.349
I've read... Granted,

00:36:37.369 --> 00:36:38.710
this all came from their website,

00:36:38.750 --> 00:36:39.769
so it may not be a hundred percent

00:36:39.809 --> 00:36:40.130
accurate.

00:36:40.150 --> 00:36:41.550
But according to their marketing

00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:43.371
materials, it's like some cameras,

00:36:43.431 --> 00:36:44.873
like surveillance cameras,

00:36:45.413 --> 00:36:47.614
They'll use IR to like better map your

00:36:47.655 --> 00:36:49.335
face for facial recognition purposes.

00:36:49.657 --> 00:36:50.856
And it's designed to throw those off.

00:36:51.177 --> 00:36:52.139
But the nice thing is, again,

00:36:52.179 --> 00:36:53.579
if I pose for like a family photo,

00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:56.362
my glasses look normal as opposed to they

00:36:56.382 --> 00:36:57.702
have another model that like will

00:36:57.802 --> 00:36:59.844
explicitly like if you take a flash photo,

00:36:59.945 --> 00:37:01.666
it'll reflect and block you.

00:37:01.706 --> 00:37:03.288
And so anyways,

00:37:03.347 --> 00:37:04.949
my point is like something like that comes

00:37:04.969 --> 00:37:05.248
to mind.

00:37:05.289 --> 00:37:05.568
But I mean,

00:37:05.588 --> 00:37:07.570
that comes with so many like let's just

00:37:07.590 --> 00:37:09.072
assume it works for the record.

00:37:09.592 --> 00:37:11.793
But you shouldn't have to like if you

00:37:11.813 --> 00:37:12.554
don't wear glasses,

00:37:12.574 --> 00:37:13.576
why are you going to buy them just

00:37:13.596 --> 00:37:14.817
to throw off facial recognition?

00:37:15.353 --> 00:37:16.913
You shouldn't have to buy them because I

00:37:16.932 --> 00:37:17.773
think they're pretty expensive.

00:37:17.793 --> 00:37:18.994
The frames are like two or three hundred

00:37:19.014 --> 00:37:19.434
dollars,

00:37:21.114 --> 00:37:22.653
which I guess is how much frames normally

00:37:22.693 --> 00:37:23.554
cost without insurance.

00:37:23.574 --> 00:37:24.054
But either way,

00:37:24.094 --> 00:37:26.474
it's it's I guess my point is like

00:37:26.534 --> 00:37:27.815
it's one of those like I agree with

00:37:27.835 --> 00:37:27.934
you.

00:37:27.974 --> 00:37:29.996
Like I don't like.

00:37:31.315 --> 00:37:33.235
When ordinary people just trying to live

00:37:33.255 --> 00:37:33.797
their lives,

00:37:34.036 --> 00:37:36.197
have this unnecessary burden put upon

00:37:36.237 --> 00:37:38.356
them, and I understand that like.

00:37:40.338 --> 00:37:41.038
Like it.

00:37:42.175 --> 00:37:44.436
I understand that there's a limit to that,

00:37:44.496 --> 00:37:44.737
right?

00:37:44.818 --> 00:37:47.119
Like we're not all entitled to like free

00:37:47.139 --> 00:37:49.340
DoorDash or anything like that, right?

00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:51.240
Like there's gonna be times you have to

00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:52.442
put in some work and you have to

00:37:52.461 --> 00:37:54.063
put in some effort and learn some things.

00:37:54.523 --> 00:37:55.704
But I mean, in this situation,

00:37:55.744 --> 00:37:56.744
like I feel like

00:37:57.405 --> 00:37:59.367
these companies are just so out of control

00:37:59.487 --> 00:38:01.208
and there is no data privacy law in

00:38:01.228 --> 00:38:02.548
the U S at least not universally.

00:38:02.568 --> 00:38:05.449
There's a patchwork of limited laws.

00:38:05.489 --> 00:38:06.271
Like somebody here said,

00:38:06.291 --> 00:38:07.851
there's some states in the U S which

00:38:07.891 --> 00:38:09.351
don't allow facial recognition without

00:38:09.391 --> 00:38:10.152
explicit consent.

00:38:10.512 --> 00:38:10.612
Yeah.

00:38:10.632 --> 00:38:11.893
There's like two or three that I'm aware

00:38:11.972 --> 00:38:12.092
of.

00:38:12.193 --> 00:38:14.855
I think there's like Texas, Illinois, um,

00:38:14.875 --> 00:38:16.215
probably California with the,

00:38:16.235 --> 00:38:17.996
their privacy law and maybe like a couple

00:38:18.056 --> 00:38:19.277
others, but you know,

00:38:19.416 --> 00:38:20.838
overall there is no like

00:38:22.177 --> 00:38:25.197
us version of GDPR that says like, Hey,

00:38:25.237 --> 00:38:26.338
here's the bare minimum.

00:38:26.539 --> 00:38:28.679
And I,

00:38:28.699 --> 00:38:29.820
the more we go through this stuff,

00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:31.119
the more I feel like we really need

00:38:31.179 --> 00:38:31.940
something like that,

00:38:31.981 --> 00:38:33.221
that just kind of sets a standard,

00:38:33.581 --> 00:38:34.181
which for the record,

00:38:34.262 --> 00:38:35.222
it will not be good enough.

00:38:35.282 --> 00:38:36.021
I guarantee you that,

00:38:36.222 --> 00:38:37.922
but at least something,

00:38:37.983 --> 00:38:40.344
some kind of bare minimum thing so that

00:38:40.423 --> 00:38:40.903
people,

00:38:41.083 --> 00:38:43.045
ordinary people don't have to jump through

00:38:43.085 --> 00:38:45.485
a hundred and hoops just to try to

00:38:45.525 --> 00:38:47.547
have like a basic level of privacy.

00:38:47.686 --> 00:38:48.447
It's so insane.

00:38:48.961 --> 00:38:50.342
And it's really important that like,

00:38:51.123 --> 00:38:53.543
you can't just claim to be working around

00:38:53.583 --> 00:38:55.385
these privacy restrictions by like

00:38:55.545 --> 00:38:56.905
anonymizing that data or whatever,

00:38:56.945 --> 00:38:59.146
because in cases like this, for example,

00:38:59.186 --> 00:39:01.306
we know that that technology doesn't

00:39:01.327 --> 00:39:03.068
really exist or it will, like,

00:39:03.088 --> 00:39:04.708
if you want to blur faces, um,

00:39:04.768 --> 00:39:05.568
in all of these videos,

00:39:05.608 --> 00:39:08.411
it probably relies on AI, which again,

00:39:08.471 --> 00:39:09.990
I'd point out Meta said that they were

00:39:10.030 --> 00:39:11.811
doing in this case and it didn't work

00:39:11.851 --> 00:39:12.452
consistently.

00:39:12.911 --> 00:39:14.452
That's just going to be inherent to all

00:39:14.492 --> 00:39:15.152
of this technology.

00:39:15.172 --> 00:39:16.673
You're never going to be able to.

00:39:17.233 --> 00:39:18.675
One hundred percent, uh,

00:39:20.114 --> 00:39:21.695
ensure that all of this data is being

00:39:21.735 --> 00:39:23.695
handled privately no matter what Meta is

00:39:23.735 --> 00:39:24.596
claiming about this.

00:39:24.835 --> 00:39:28.277
And really the only solution here is to

00:39:28.317 --> 00:39:30.396
not collect that data in the first place

00:39:30.556 --> 00:39:32.077
and to not give Meta that data in

00:39:32.097 --> 00:39:32.737
the first place.

00:39:35.197 --> 00:39:35.737
So yeah,

00:39:36.358 --> 00:39:38.739
this whole thing's a bummer because it

00:39:38.778 --> 00:39:41.759
really puts a bad spin on AI glasses

00:39:41.778 --> 00:39:42.259
in general,

00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:43.739
which is probably a good thing because it

00:39:43.759 --> 00:39:44.980
seems like every single one that's come

00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:46.099
out lately has been...

00:39:48.137 --> 00:39:50.239
just in the form of cameras strapped to

00:39:50.259 --> 00:39:50.958
your face, right?

00:39:51.298 --> 00:39:52.179
Which is always like,

00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:55.322
that's never been what I wanted from smart

00:39:55.342 --> 00:39:57.983
glasses, even before I got into privacy.

00:39:59.545 --> 00:40:00.686
I've always just been a huge fan of

00:40:00.706 --> 00:40:02.007
future technology, and I was like,

00:40:02.027 --> 00:40:03.847
smart glasses, that could be cool,

00:40:03.887 --> 00:40:06.349
because I would want a heads-up display to

00:40:06.429 --> 00:40:10.072
see navigation or live translation or a

00:40:10.152 --> 00:40:12.554
ton of stuff that does not at all

00:40:12.614 --> 00:40:13.655
require cameras.

00:40:14.114 --> 00:40:15.356
Recording people constantly,

00:40:15.416 --> 00:40:15.956
that's probably...

00:40:17.525 --> 00:40:19.268
Most of the very bottom of the list

00:40:19.307 --> 00:40:20.548
of things I would ever want to do

00:40:20.568 --> 00:40:21.409
with my glasses.

00:40:21.989 --> 00:40:22.170
Um,

00:40:22.570 --> 00:40:25.992
but that is the direction that all of

00:40:26.012 --> 00:40:27.655
these tech companies are going in rather

00:40:27.695 --> 00:40:32.139
than, um, something more,

00:40:32.318 --> 00:40:34.280
more useful and less privacy invasive,

00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:35.101
unfortunately.

00:40:35.621 --> 00:40:37.623
So it's a shame.

00:40:37.882 --> 00:40:39.304
Yeah.

00:40:39.324 --> 00:40:40.204
I, I really just real quick,

00:40:40.266 --> 00:40:41.766
I want to drill home what you were

00:40:41.806 --> 00:40:43.728
saying about like how the face blur isn't

00:40:43.768 --> 00:40:44.068
enough.

00:40:44.128 --> 00:40:44.289
Like.

00:40:45.353 --> 00:40:48.815
It takes a shockingly small amount of data

00:40:49.315 --> 00:40:50.655
to de-anonymize somebody.

00:40:50.755 --> 00:40:51.836
And it always cracks me up when it's

00:40:51.876 --> 00:40:53.157
something like location, right?

00:40:53.177 --> 00:40:55.237
Like, oh, but we anonymize the location.

00:40:55.577 --> 00:40:57.858
And how many other people in the world

00:40:58.338 --> 00:41:00.599
spend eight hours a night at this location

00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:02.119
and then eight hours a day at that

00:41:02.139 --> 00:41:02.701
location?

00:41:03.021 --> 00:41:05.282
Like that alone tells you who I am.

00:41:05.702 --> 00:41:06.842
And then this one with like the whole,

00:41:06.902 --> 00:41:08.043
oh, but we blur faces.

00:41:08.762 --> 00:41:09.583
Hi, hello.

00:41:09.822 --> 00:41:11.023
I don't think that matters for some

00:41:11.063 --> 00:41:11.364
people.

00:41:12.516 --> 00:41:13.496
for audio listeners,

00:41:13.538 --> 00:41:14.777
I'm showing off my arm tattoos.

00:41:14.818 --> 00:41:16.139
Like even if you blurred my face, it's,

00:41:16.259 --> 00:41:18.199
I don't, it's pretty obvious, you know?

00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:19.280
And so, yeah.

00:41:19.460 --> 00:41:21.280
Um, I, I could see,

00:41:21.481 --> 00:41:22.842
I'm thinking back in my own history.

00:41:22.981 --> 00:41:24.842
I could see a few small scenarios where

00:41:24.862 --> 00:41:26.264
like having a camera strapped to my face

00:41:26.284 --> 00:41:27.204
would be super useful,

00:41:27.264 --> 00:41:29.405
but that was like three times a year

00:41:29.565 --> 00:41:31.405
at my old job just for me.

00:41:31.567 --> 00:41:31.766
Like,

00:41:31.887 --> 00:41:33.226
I don't think most people really need it

00:41:33.246 --> 00:41:33.847
that much.

00:41:33.867 --> 00:41:34.387
So yeah.

00:41:34.568 --> 00:41:35.728
And certainly, you know,

00:41:35.789 --> 00:41:39.190
that could be a separate product that

00:41:39.269 --> 00:41:39.391
like,

00:41:39.431 --> 00:41:40.550
what if I just have a little camera

00:41:40.570 --> 00:41:42.271
that clips onto my glasses if I want

00:41:42.291 --> 00:41:43.251
to record something, right?

00:41:43.313 --> 00:41:44.572
I don't need it constantly.

00:41:44.592 --> 00:41:45.534
Yeah.

00:41:45.574 --> 00:41:46.914
Constantly on and recording.

00:41:47.153 --> 00:41:50.175
This is a very niche use case,

00:41:50.235 --> 00:41:52.797
I think, for a lot of people.

00:41:52.956 --> 00:41:54.038
Yeah, super crazy.

00:41:56.155 --> 00:41:56.936
But on that note,

00:41:57.876 --> 00:42:00.036
we do have some site updates before we

00:42:00.097 --> 00:42:01.438
launch into our next story.

00:42:01.498 --> 00:42:02.478
We are going to talk a little bit

00:42:02.518 --> 00:42:05.320
later about ProtonMail.

00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:06.739
I know that story just came out the

00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:07.280
other day.

00:42:07.641 --> 00:42:08.201
But first,

00:42:08.621 --> 00:42:10.561
here's what's going on at Privacy Guides.

00:42:10.722 --> 00:42:12.202
And for those of you who may not

00:42:12.242 --> 00:42:12.483
know,

00:42:12.563 --> 00:42:14.684
Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which shares

00:42:14.744 --> 00:42:16.224
data privacy related information.

00:42:16.764 --> 00:42:18.545
And we facilitate a community over on our

00:42:18.585 --> 00:42:20.766
forum and on Matrix where people can ask

00:42:20.786 --> 00:42:22.307
questions and get advice about staying

00:42:22.347 --> 00:42:23.807
private online and preserving their

00:42:23.827 --> 00:42:24.568
digital rights.

00:42:25.389 --> 00:42:26.469
So first up, big news,

00:42:26.588 --> 00:42:28.389
our smartphone privacy and security course

00:42:28.409 --> 00:42:29.809
that we have been talking about for months

00:42:29.869 --> 00:42:30.130
now.

00:42:30.831 --> 00:42:32.271
We've been releasing videos little by

00:42:32.311 --> 00:42:32.550
little.

00:42:32.931 --> 00:42:34.311
It is finally one hundred percent

00:42:34.391 --> 00:42:35.672
available in full.

00:42:36.152 --> 00:42:37.231
No membership required.

00:42:38.092 --> 00:42:39.092
You can go over to YouTube.

00:42:39.592 --> 00:42:40.773
I believe it's on pure tube now.

00:42:40.853 --> 00:42:41.873
If it's not, it will be very,

00:42:41.913 --> 00:42:42.333
very soon.

00:42:44.155 --> 00:42:44.576
We have,

00:42:44.596 --> 00:42:45.956
for those of you who may not be

00:42:45.996 --> 00:42:46.456
aware of this,

00:42:46.896 --> 00:42:49.318
we basically built a three-part smartphone

00:42:49.338 --> 00:42:51.260
course about how to make your smartphone

00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:52.539
more private and more secure.

00:42:53.121 --> 00:42:55.422
And there's a beginner, intermediate,

00:42:55.442 --> 00:42:56.101
and advanced level.

00:42:56.561 --> 00:42:58.202
And there is also an iPhone and an

00:42:58.262 --> 00:42:58.903
Android version.

00:42:59.224 --> 00:43:01.764
So yeah, whichever one you use.

00:43:02.425 --> 00:43:03.826
And you can watch them all and you

00:43:03.846 --> 00:43:04.947
can decide maybe some of the stuff in

00:43:04.967 --> 00:43:06.367
the advanced level doesn't apply to me.

00:43:06.427 --> 00:43:07.307
Maybe some of it does.

00:43:08.208 --> 00:43:08.748
If nothing else,

00:43:08.768 --> 00:43:09.929
it lets you know what your options are

00:43:10.030 --> 00:43:12.150
out there and our official recommendations

00:43:12.190 --> 00:43:14.612
at this point in time about how to

00:43:14.652 --> 00:43:16.554
make your smartphone as private and secure

00:43:16.574 --> 00:43:17.114
as possible.

00:43:17.815 --> 00:43:19.275
And again, that is out now.

00:43:19.436 --> 00:43:20.536
So go ahead and check that out.

00:43:21.416 --> 00:43:23.277
And then some big exciting news.

00:43:23.818 --> 00:43:26.079
Myself and Jonah next week will be in

00:43:26.179 --> 00:43:26.860
Austin, Texas.

00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:29.202
We are at an unofficial South by Southwest

00:43:29.242 --> 00:43:31.163
party being hosted by EFF Austin.

00:43:32.423 --> 00:43:34.864
We will be doing a little workshop about

00:43:35.005 --> 00:43:36.746
how to improve the privacy and security of

00:43:36.766 --> 00:43:37.126
your phone.

00:43:37.532 --> 00:43:40.213
So, and, um, if,

00:43:40.514 --> 00:43:42.514
if anyone's in the area and you have

00:43:42.554 --> 00:43:44.376
never tried graphene and you're like kind

00:43:44.416 --> 00:43:45.155
of worried about it,

00:43:45.615 --> 00:43:47.436
we will actually have a little demo device

00:43:47.476 --> 00:43:49.518
that has graphene on it so that people

00:43:49.538 --> 00:43:50.938
can play around with it and kind of

00:43:50.958 --> 00:43:51.498
see like, oh,

00:43:51.518 --> 00:43:52.820
this is just like a normal Android.

00:43:52.860 --> 00:43:53.940
Like there's nothing to be scared of.

00:43:54.001 --> 00:43:55.380
I can use it just like an Android.

00:43:56.181 --> 00:43:57.443
Um, so we'll have that little demo device,

00:43:57.463 --> 00:43:58.983
but also we'll just be answering questions

00:43:59.023 --> 00:43:59.543
and, you know,

00:43:59.684 --> 00:44:01.525
offering our advice about how to harden

00:44:01.545 --> 00:44:01.985
your phone.

00:44:02.619 --> 00:44:04.081
And full disclosure,

00:44:04.242 --> 00:44:05.702
I am on the board of EFF Austin.

00:44:06.103 --> 00:44:07.244
So yeah,

00:44:07.364 --> 00:44:08.766
we will be there for anyone who's in

00:44:08.786 --> 00:44:09.106
the area.

00:44:09.594 --> 00:44:09.974
Yeah,

00:44:10.014 --> 00:44:11.355
come stop by if you're not and it'll

00:44:11.375 --> 00:44:12.454
be super fun, I think.

00:44:13.376 --> 00:44:15.416
And we'll share a link to the to

00:44:15.456 --> 00:44:18.157
the event information meetup stuff in the

00:44:18.217 --> 00:44:19.277
in the sources of the show.

00:44:19.318 --> 00:44:21.039
So yeah, if you're in the area,

00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:21.840
definitely check it out.

00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:23.559
It should be fun.

00:44:26.181 --> 00:44:27.362
And also, I will say,

00:44:28.001 --> 00:44:30.402
since it will be taking place next Friday,

00:44:31.583 --> 00:44:34.425
we will be hosting this show in person

00:44:34.465 --> 00:44:34.664
there.

00:44:34.704 --> 00:44:37.346
So that'll be fun for people who watch

00:44:37.365 --> 00:44:37.907
this as well.

00:44:40.344 --> 00:44:41.065
In other news,

00:44:41.545 --> 00:44:43.688
we have a bunch of big stuff that

00:44:43.708 --> 00:44:45.610
we announced on our website this week.

00:44:45.650 --> 00:44:47.751
The biggest thing that we launched was a

00:44:47.811 --> 00:44:50.775
new section related to privacy activism.

00:44:51.275 --> 00:44:54.699
So if you go to privacyguides.org slash

00:44:54.818 --> 00:44:55.719
activism right now,

00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:56.880
you can find all of these

00:44:57.876 --> 00:45:00.217
resources um our staff writer m has been

00:45:01.036 --> 00:45:02.657
working super hard on getting all these up

00:45:02.697 --> 00:45:04.717
and it has a ton of useful advice

00:45:05.018 --> 00:45:08.079
um not for like just activists in

00:45:08.139 --> 00:45:11.659
particular but activists for privacy

00:45:11.699 --> 00:45:13.820
people who want to advocate for data

00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:18.001
privacy in their local communities or in

00:45:18.021 --> 00:45:19.661
terms of legislation or in terms of

00:45:20.262 --> 00:45:23.204
anywhere else that you might want to be

00:45:23.244 --> 00:45:25.507
an activist for privacy rights.

00:45:26.088 --> 00:45:27.869
And so all of these tools are meant

00:45:27.969 --> 00:45:29.992
to empower the kind of digital rights

00:45:30.012 --> 00:45:31.293
community that we are in.

00:45:31.673 --> 00:45:33.315
And the first tool that we released in

00:45:33.356 --> 00:45:36.119
this section is the privacy activist

00:45:36.518 --> 00:45:37.239
toolbox,

00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:38.722
which it looks like Nate is

00:45:39.322 --> 00:45:41.742
scrolling through now here on the screen.

00:45:42.023 --> 00:45:42.523
Essentially,

00:45:42.563 --> 00:45:47.384
this toolbox is a list of resources and

00:45:47.483 --> 00:45:49.925
articles that give you advice on how to

00:45:49.965 --> 00:45:52.905
be the most effective privacy activist you

00:45:52.925 --> 00:45:55.887
can be and how to effectively and clearly

00:45:56.106 --> 00:46:00.447
and sustainably advocate for privacy and

00:46:00.467 --> 00:46:01.088
digital rights.

00:46:02.068 --> 00:46:04.369
And so if that is interesting to you,

00:46:04.489 --> 00:46:06.371
if you've been in the privacy community

00:46:06.391 --> 00:46:08.193
for a while and you're wondering how to

00:46:08.273 --> 00:46:10.293
best make a difference yourself,

00:46:11.635 --> 00:46:12.835
definitely check out these articles.

00:46:12.856 --> 00:46:15.157
They're extremely extensive and just a

00:46:15.197 --> 00:46:16.137
wonderful resource.

00:46:16.177 --> 00:46:19.141
We've gotten a ton of positive feedback

00:46:19.300 --> 00:46:22.143
from people in this space and elsewhere

00:46:22.163 --> 00:46:24.603
who have been reading these and learning

00:46:24.623 --> 00:46:26.746
new things or sharing these with other

00:46:27.346 --> 00:46:29.867
privacy activists and privacy related

00:46:29.987 --> 00:46:30.768
organizations.

00:46:31.409 --> 00:46:32.190
in this space.

00:46:34.090 --> 00:46:36.132
The activism section in general is

00:46:36.193 --> 00:46:38.494
something that we hope to continue

00:46:38.594 --> 00:46:39.195
expanding.

00:46:39.215 --> 00:46:41.536
We have a few things on the roadmap

00:46:41.697 --> 00:46:43.478
and hopefully we can share a bit more

00:46:43.998 --> 00:46:45.320
information about that soon.

00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:47.041
But for now,

00:46:47.161 --> 00:46:49.902
I think that all of these tips will

00:46:49.922 --> 00:46:52.485
prove to be super helpful for some of

00:46:52.525 --> 00:46:53.106
you out there.

00:46:53.286 --> 00:46:55.307
And if any of that sounds interesting to

00:46:55.347 --> 00:46:55.467
you,

00:46:56.047 --> 00:46:58.809
definitely go to privacyguides.org slash

00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:04.315
activism and check out that resource.

00:47:04.614 --> 00:47:05.775
Other site changes,

00:47:05.815 --> 00:47:08.257
we've done a few very minor things.

00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:11.960
The most notable one was that we removed

00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:16.605
mention of zero knowledge encryption or

00:47:16.644 --> 00:47:18.746
zero access encryption from our site

00:47:18.766 --> 00:47:20.367
because those terms are not very...

00:47:20.947 --> 00:47:22.548
clear and we found them to be confusing.

00:47:22.588 --> 00:47:24.231
So we're kind of transitioning to being

00:47:24.291 --> 00:47:25.371
more descriptive.

00:47:26.251 --> 00:47:27.893
Zero access encryption is kind of a

00:47:27.994 --> 00:47:30.054
marketing term that gets thrown around a

00:47:30.094 --> 00:47:30.355
lot.

00:47:30.856 --> 00:47:32.737
And zero knowledge encryption is not

00:47:33.518 --> 00:47:34.759
really technically accurate.

00:47:36.139 --> 00:47:37.440
It doesn't make a lot of sense outside

00:47:37.481 --> 00:47:38.742
of like zero knowledge proofs,

00:47:38.782 --> 00:47:40.242
which are totally different things.

00:47:40.302 --> 00:47:40.463
So

00:47:41.664 --> 00:47:43.744
Hopefully some of our resources around

00:47:45.246 --> 00:47:48.088
encrypted tools that we recommend,

00:47:48.168 --> 00:47:48.688
et cetera,

00:47:48.867 --> 00:47:50.768
are more clear and we hope to use

00:47:51.989 --> 00:47:55.052
better terminology to describe that stuff

00:47:55.211 --> 00:47:55.891
going forward.

00:47:55.952 --> 00:47:58.032
That's not just marketing jargon.

00:47:58.534 --> 00:47:59.614
That's a big thing that we want to

00:47:59.634 --> 00:48:01.534
try to eliminate from all of our resources

00:48:01.675 --> 00:48:02.516
as much as possible.

00:48:02.615 --> 00:48:04.036
So that was a big change.

00:48:04.856 --> 00:48:08.782
um related to our news section our

00:48:08.842 --> 00:48:11.125
volunteer journalist freya has been

00:48:11.164 --> 00:48:13.286
publishing a ton of articles lately so you

00:48:13.306 --> 00:48:16.490
can go to privacyguides.org news and check

00:48:16.510 --> 00:48:18.273
those out there are a lot of stories

00:48:18.293 --> 00:48:20.655
that we don't get a chance to discuss

00:48:20.856 --> 00:48:21.637
here on the show

00:48:22.358 --> 00:48:25.021
but are still important nonetheless,

00:48:25.181 --> 00:48:28.206
and that is the best way to stay

00:48:28.226 --> 00:48:29.827
up to date with those in addition to

00:48:29.947 --> 00:48:30.889
our community forum.

00:48:31.590 --> 00:48:34.273
Some of the articles include a full-length

00:48:34.353 --> 00:48:36.777
article on how to game privately,

00:48:37.617 --> 00:48:40.141
which might be interesting to the gamers

00:48:40.201 --> 00:48:40.541
out there,

00:48:40.961 --> 00:48:43.163
as well as more news briefs like Samsung

00:48:43.182 --> 00:48:45.563
TV's halting data collection in Texas,

00:48:45.922 --> 00:48:47.583
a spyware maker going to jail,

00:48:47.963 --> 00:48:50.143
TikTok refusing to add end-to-end

00:48:50.164 --> 00:48:53.385
encrypted direct messages, and a lot more.

00:48:53.804 --> 00:48:54.164
So again,

00:48:54.204 --> 00:48:57.746
that's at privacyguides.org slash news if

00:48:57.766 --> 00:48:59.786
you want to stay up to date on

00:48:59.867 --> 00:49:00.626
all of those topics.

00:49:01.806 --> 00:49:02.726
All of the stuff that we do at

00:49:02.766 --> 00:49:04.947
Privacy Guides is made possible by our

00:49:05.007 --> 00:49:05.588
supporters.

00:49:06.027 --> 00:49:08.148
So you can sign up for a membership

00:49:08.309 --> 00:49:10.471
or donate at privacyguides.org.

00:49:10.871 --> 00:49:13.391
Or if you want to promote privacy in

00:49:13.431 --> 00:49:15.152
your own life and you want to support

00:49:15.273 --> 00:49:16.014
us as well,

00:49:16.094 --> 00:49:18.894
you can buy some swag from

00:49:18.994 --> 00:49:21.356
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:49:23.498 --> 00:49:25.179
I think that does it for all the

00:49:25.219 --> 00:49:26.702
updates from us this week.

00:49:27.282 --> 00:49:31.947
So let's talk about chat GPT and the

00:49:32.007 --> 00:49:32.827
Pentagon.

00:49:33.188 --> 00:49:34.449
Nate, what do you got for us here?

00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:36.942
Yes.

00:49:37.242 --> 00:49:39.985
OK, so for those who missed the memo,

00:49:40.664 --> 00:49:41.826
which I wouldn't blame you because there

00:49:41.865 --> 00:49:43.887
is so much freaking news going on right

00:49:43.927 --> 00:49:44.088
now,

00:49:44.108 --> 00:49:45.250
it's hard to stay on top of it

00:49:45.289 --> 00:49:45.449
all.

00:49:46.590 --> 00:49:48.072
Like I actually forgot part one of this

00:49:48.092 --> 00:49:49.653
story until I was reading the article and

00:49:49.753 --> 00:49:50.494
refresh my memory.

00:49:52.295 --> 00:49:55.757
So the Pentagon used to have a contract

00:49:55.817 --> 00:49:58.318
with Anthropic, who makes the AI Claude,

00:49:58.958 --> 00:50:00.358
which I've heard good things about as far

00:50:00.398 --> 00:50:01.119
as AI goes.

00:50:01.179 --> 00:50:02.699
I guess it's pretty good at what it

00:50:02.739 --> 00:50:03.039
does.

00:50:04.621 --> 00:50:08.222
But Anthropic had some stipulations in

00:50:08.262 --> 00:50:08.963
their contract,

00:50:09.063 --> 00:50:12.204
specifically that you could not use Claude

00:50:12.364 --> 00:50:14.184
for mass surveillance on Americans,

00:50:14.625 --> 00:50:16.425
and you cannot use it in autonomous

00:50:16.485 --> 00:50:16.885
weapons.

00:50:17.766 --> 00:50:20.048
And the government tried to pressure

00:50:20.088 --> 00:50:23.492
Claude into dropping those stipulations

00:50:23.532 --> 00:50:24.534
and doing whatever they wanted.

00:50:28.824 --> 00:50:30.726
I will admit I'm not fully versed in

00:50:30.746 --> 00:50:31.666
the nuance of this story.

00:50:31.706 --> 00:50:33.148
So I apologize if any of my opinions

00:50:33.228 --> 00:50:34.369
are a little wrong here,

00:50:34.429 --> 00:50:36.170
but to their credit,

00:50:36.309 --> 00:50:38.090
Anthropic stuck with their guns and said,

00:50:38.331 --> 00:50:38.851
no pun intended,

00:50:39.492 --> 00:50:40.592
stuck with their guns and said, no,

00:50:40.652 --> 00:50:41.554
we're not going to do that.

00:50:41.713 --> 00:50:43.454
And the government dropped them and said,

00:50:43.474 --> 00:50:44.896
we're not doing business with you anymore.

00:50:46.117 --> 00:50:47.597
Went on to declare them a supply chain

00:50:47.637 --> 00:50:47.918
risk.

00:50:47.938 --> 00:50:49.579
That's a whole nother thing that we're not

00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:53.983
going to get into, but open AI is,

00:50:55.382 --> 00:50:57.983
as they do, swooped right in and said,

00:50:58.043 --> 00:50:59.083
hey, we'll do business with you.

00:50:59.103 --> 00:51:01.385
I mean,

00:51:01.445 --> 00:51:02.385
I don't know how else to put it.

00:51:02.824 --> 00:51:06.065
So Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI,

00:51:07.427 --> 00:51:10.668
basically he's clarifying the terms of

00:51:10.708 --> 00:51:14.829
this deal now because he recognizes that

00:51:15.010 --> 00:51:16.751
that was not a good look to just

00:51:16.771 --> 00:51:17.170
come in.

00:51:18.070 --> 00:51:18.851
Here's what he says.

00:51:19.231 --> 00:51:20.771
We were genuinely trying to deescalate

00:51:20.791 --> 00:51:22.092
things and avoid a much worse outcome,

00:51:22.112 --> 00:51:23.813
but I think it just looked opportunistic

00:51:23.833 --> 00:51:24.293
and sloppy.

00:51:25.474 --> 00:51:26.974
You can take that at face value if

00:51:26.994 --> 00:51:27.795
you want or not.

00:51:27.856 --> 00:51:29.215
You can probably tell how I feel from

00:51:29.255 --> 00:51:29.715
my tone,

00:51:29.755 --> 00:51:30.936
but that's neither here nor there.

00:51:31.717 --> 00:51:32.177
But either way,

00:51:32.976 --> 00:51:35.958
he's clarifying that they are still

00:51:35.998 --> 00:51:38.998
holding to the terms that OpenAI cannot be

00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:40.818
used for mass surveillance.

00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:42.360
Noticeably,

00:51:42.420 --> 00:51:43.639
I don't think this article said anything

00:51:43.659 --> 00:51:44.721
about the autonomous weapons.

00:51:45.621 --> 00:51:47.721
But yeah,

00:51:47.961 --> 00:51:49.242
and I think that's kind of the...

00:51:51.246 --> 00:51:51.465
Again,

00:51:51.746 --> 00:51:53.547
that's kind of the bare bones of the

00:51:53.588 --> 00:51:53.967
story.

00:51:55.429 --> 00:51:56.510
We don't know a lot more.

00:51:56.969 --> 00:52:00.092
We know that AI,

00:52:00.472 --> 00:52:01.813
and I'm sure a lot of our veteran

00:52:01.994 --> 00:52:02.653
viewers know this,

00:52:02.673 --> 00:52:04.574
but AI is so much more than LLMs,

00:52:04.635 --> 00:52:04.896
right?

00:52:05.215 --> 00:52:06.175
And there's a lot of people who don't

00:52:06.195 --> 00:52:08.657
even like the term AI because it's been

00:52:08.677 --> 00:52:10.418
around for a long time.

00:52:12.036 --> 00:52:13.579
AI research goes all the way back to

00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:14.780
like the sixties, I think,

00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:16.081
which is pretty crazy when you think about

00:52:16.121 --> 00:52:16.201
it.

00:52:16.882 --> 00:52:17.443
But I mean,

00:52:17.762 --> 00:52:19.003
even before it was called AI,

00:52:19.043 --> 00:52:20.266
we've had targeted ads,

00:52:20.306 --> 00:52:21.467
we've had machine learning,

00:52:21.527 --> 00:52:25.570
we've had algorithms determining all kinds

00:52:25.650 --> 00:52:27.072
of, I mean, for years,

00:52:27.172 --> 00:52:28.934
algorithms have been determining whether

00:52:28.994 --> 00:52:30.135
or not you get approved for a loan,

00:52:30.175 --> 00:52:31.336
your insurance rates.

00:52:31.838 --> 00:52:33.360
And it's just, this is like,

00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:36.081
the next step, um,

00:52:36.141 --> 00:52:37.161
I've had to explain that to a few

00:52:37.201 --> 00:52:38.420
people is that like, it,

00:52:38.641 --> 00:52:40.782
it seems on the, from the outside,

00:52:40.822 --> 00:52:42.322
it seems like chat GPT just came out

00:52:42.362 --> 00:52:43.242
of nowhere, right.

00:52:43.302 --> 00:52:44.684
In twenty, twenty two, I think it was,

00:52:45.264 --> 00:52:46.344
but I mean, it's,

00:52:46.463 --> 00:52:47.844
it's kind of been building towards that

00:52:47.864 --> 00:52:48.465
behind the scenes.

00:52:48.505 --> 00:52:48.784
It's just,

00:52:48.804 --> 00:52:50.306
that was like the next leap forward,

00:52:50.945 --> 00:52:52.246
at least publicly and visibly.

00:52:52.726 --> 00:52:53.086
So, um,

00:52:54.255 --> 00:52:56.755
Yeah, AI is being used by the military,

00:52:56.795 --> 00:52:57.456
which is, again,

00:52:57.496 --> 00:52:58.735
probably not a shocker to our veteran

00:52:58.775 --> 00:53:02.456
listeners, but it's being used for, again,

00:53:02.536 --> 00:53:04.677
it's more than just LLMs and chatbots.

00:53:04.717 --> 00:53:06.338
It's being used to identify targets.

00:53:06.358 --> 00:53:08.097
It's being used to calculate how sure are

00:53:08.117 --> 00:53:09.179
we that this is a target?

00:53:09.518 --> 00:53:10.699
Where do we think this person is going

00:53:10.719 --> 00:53:11.358
to be next?

00:53:11.478 --> 00:53:12.400
All that kind of stuff.

00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:14.280
And so I think

00:53:15.902 --> 00:53:16.382
I'm not going to lie.

00:53:16.402 --> 00:53:17.403
This has actually been on my mind for

00:53:17.423 --> 00:53:17.885
a long time.

00:53:18.746 --> 00:53:19.827
Back on Surveillance Report,

00:53:19.887 --> 00:53:23.192
Henry used to tell a famous story from

00:53:23.351 --> 00:53:26.255
Edward Snowden where it was the – I

00:53:26.295 --> 00:53:27.456
believe it was the Boston Marathon

00:53:27.496 --> 00:53:27.938
bombings.

00:53:28.539 --> 00:53:29.820
It's like him and one of his coworkers

00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:30.340
were in a bar,

00:53:31.001 --> 00:53:32.804
and they saw the news about the Boston

00:53:32.824 --> 00:53:33.545
Marathon bombings.

00:53:34.445 --> 00:53:35.786
And I think it was his coworker was

00:53:35.826 --> 00:53:36.065
like,

00:53:36.606 --> 00:53:37.547
how much you want to bet that guy's

00:53:37.567 --> 00:53:38.067
in our system?

00:53:38.447 --> 00:53:39.367
Like we flagged him.

00:53:39.427 --> 00:53:41.487
We knew he was a threat and we

00:53:41.527 --> 00:53:41.987
did nothing.

00:53:42.827 --> 00:53:44.148
And when they went back to work the

00:53:44.188 --> 00:53:45.128
next day, sure enough,

00:53:45.148 --> 00:53:46.349
they looked him up and it's like, oh,

00:53:46.668 --> 00:53:47.369
he was in the system.

00:53:47.489 --> 00:53:48.329
Yes, absolutely.

00:53:49.068 --> 00:53:51.690
And I think that has long been a

00:53:51.710 --> 00:53:53.369
criticism that I personally have heard

00:53:53.431 --> 00:53:54.710
from intelligence people.

00:53:55.411 --> 00:53:56.050
Not that I know any,

00:53:56.070 --> 00:53:56.570
but I've just like,

00:53:56.650 --> 00:53:58.192
I've seen it around in articles and stuff

00:53:58.331 --> 00:54:01.311
is they're so inundated with data that

00:54:01.331 --> 00:54:03.512
they cannot sort through it to make sense

00:54:03.532 --> 00:54:03.713
of it.

00:54:05.684 --> 00:54:06.844
which to me tells me you should stop

00:54:06.864 --> 00:54:07.684
collecting so much data.

00:54:08.206 --> 00:54:09.766
But I think that's one of the most

00:54:09.847 --> 00:54:11.869
obvious uses of AI is to sort through

00:54:11.909 --> 00:54:12.349
that data,

00:54:13.010 --> 00:54:14.550
which raises a lot of concerns that the

00:54:14.630 --> 00:54:17.072
article did actually address here that AI

00:54:17.172 --> 00:54:19.514
is known for getting it wrong or

00:54:19.554 --> 00:54:20.014
hallucinating.

00:54:20.034 --> 00:54:20.695
Like it says right here,

00:54:20.835 --> 00:54:22.416
AI large language models can make mistakes

00:54:22.476 --> 00:54:23.657
or even make things up known as

00:54:23.697 --> 00:54:24.878
hallucinating, which...

00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:26.300
Fun fact,

00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:27.721
that was actually my first experience with

00:54:27.820 --> 00:54:28.201
AI.

00:54:28.280 --> 00:54:29.561
Back in the day, I was like, well,

00:54:29.981 --> 00:54:30.902
let me try this out and see if

00:54:30.922 --> 00:54:31.402
it's any good.

00:54:31.862 --> 00:54:32.943
And so what I used it for was,

00:54:33.123 --> 00:54:34.244
this was back when I used to recommend

00:54:34.264 --> 00:54:35.945
Threema over on the new oil,

00:54:36.565 --> 00:54:37.666
and I was writing a review.

00:54:37.826 --> 00:54:38.907
And so I was like, okay,

00:54:39.347 --> 00:54:40.768
give me the pros and cons of Threema.

00:54:41.148 --> 00:54:42.688
And one of the pros, it was like,

00:54:42.849 --> 00:54:44.250
it has a password manager built in.

00:54:44.269 --> 00:54:44.710
And I'm like,

00:54:46.431 --> 00:54:47.652
can you cite your source for that?

00:54:47.672 --> 00:54:48.411
And of course it couldn't.

00:54:48.452 --> 00:54:49.612
And it just went, oh, you're right.

00:54:49.693 --> 00:54:50.032
I'm sorry.

00:54:50.072 --> 00:54:51.173
It doesn't have a password manager.

00:54:51.193 --> 00:54:51.713
And I'm just like,

00:54:52.878 --> 00:54:54.938
Where did that even come from?

00:54:54.958 --> 00:54:57.001
So yeah, AI,

00:54:57.101 --> 00:55:01.123
that's one of the big concerns with AI

00:55:01.224 --> 00:55:01.884
in this context.

00:55:01.903 --> 00:55:02.063
I mean,

00:55:02.083 --> 00:55:03.664
aside from just the privacy in general

00:55:03.844 --> 00:55:03.985
is...

00:55:05.427 --> 00:55:05.567
I mean,

00:55:05.606 --> 00:55:06.987
I think there's so many issues with

00:55:07.027 --> 00:55:08.869
privacy in general, right?

00:55:08.909 --> 00:55:10.210
Concerns about privacy in general.

00:55:10.489 --> 00:55:11.630
Aside from the fact that it's just a

00:55:11.690 --> 00:55:12.492
given human right,

00:55:13.331 --> 00:55:14.512
I think it was also Edward Snowden or

00:55:14.552 --> 00:55:16.534
somebody said that you never have to

00:55:16.574 --> 00:55:17.894
justify why you deserve a right.

00:55:17.934 --> 00:55:19.815
Someone else has to justify why they need

00:55:19.835 --> 00:55:20.556
to infringe on it.

00:55:22.217 --> 00:55:22.998
But in addition to that,

00:55:23.297 --> 00:55:26.320
I think something that should be said is

00:55:26.380 --> 00:55:28.041
that, and again,

00:55:28.081 --> 00:55:29.141
we know this thanks to Snowden in

00:55:31.914 --> 00:55:32.655
A lot of the time,

00:55:32.715 --> 00:55:34.297
the loophole for spying on American

00:55:34.336 --> 00:55:36.460
citizens is that once data leaves the

00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:37.320
country's borders,

00:55:37.442 --> 00:55:40.465
it becomes subject to surveillance.

00:55:40.646 --> 00:55:44.210
So last year I went to Europe, right?

00:55:45.463 --> 00:55:46.884
Suddenly you can spy on me because if

00:55:46.983 --> 00:55:47.385
I, you know,

00:55:47.425 --> 00:55:48.764
had to call my wife back home,

00:55:48.844 --> 00:55:50.025
that data's crossing borders.

00:55:50.485 --> 00:55:52.266
Or even on a much more innocuous note,

00:55:52.806 --> 00:55:54.925
he would talk about how data centers like

00:55:54.945 --> 00:55:55.847
Gmail, for example,

00:55:56.206 --> 00:55:57.586
completely unbeknownst to you,

00:55:57.987 --> 00:55:59.507
they might move a server,

00:55:59.887 --> 00:56:01.608
like copy the data somewhere else

00:56:02.007 --> 00:56:04.148
temporarily to like do maintenance on that

00:56:04.208 --> 00:56:05.228
physical server, right?

00:56:05.768 --> 00:56:08.710
And that data might go to Canada, Mexico,

00:56:08.829 --> 00:56:11.010
whatever, or even just sending an email.

00:56:11.050 --> 00:56:12.130
You know, the internet...

00:56:13.231 --> 00:56:14.072
as far as I understand,

00:56:14.152 --> 00:56:15.893
like it tries to optimize and take the

00:56:15.934 --> 00:56:17.094
fastest route to something,

00:56:17.494 --> 00:56:18.936
which let's say hypothetically,

00:56:19.836 --> 00:56:21.597
for some reason, the fastest route from,

00:56:21.657 --> 00:56:22.139
I don't know,

00:56:22.179 --> 00:56:23.980
Texas to California is jammed up.

00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:25.141
It might, again,

00:56:25.221 --> 00:56:26.842
bounce over to a server in Mexico and

00:56:26.862 --> 00:56:29.844
then bounce back over to California to use

00:56:29.884 --> 00:56:30.605
the fastest route.

00:56:30.704 --> 00:56:31.324
And now again,

00:56:31.385 --> 00:56:32.985
your data is open for interception.

00:56:33.045 --> 00:56:36.429
So it's, yeah, there's just so,

00:56:36.528 --> 00:56:38.510
so many privacy concerns with AI.

00:56:38.871 --> 00:56:41.072
And the fact that they...

00:56:42.594 --> 00:56:45.137
The fact that this is even a discussion

00:56:45.237 --> 00:56:48.000
or a question from the military of like,

00:56:48.019 --> 00:56:48.139
well,

00:56:48.179 --> 00:56:49.481
can we use it for mass surveillance on

00:56:49.521 --> 00:56:51.083
Americans?

00:56:51.344 --> 00:56:51.824
Why?

00:56:52.605 --> 00:56:53.626
Just, yeah, I don't know.

00:56:53.847 --> 00:56:54.106
That's...

00:56:55.367 --> 00:56:56.389
I think that's kind of all my thoughts

00:56:56.449 --> 00:56:57.650
on that one.

00:56:57.670 --> 00:56:58.351
Yeah, I...

00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:02.860
I would definitely and you said we

00:57:02.900 --> 00:57:04.260
wouldn't talk too much about this,

00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:06.081
but I would want to highlight the the

00:57:06.161 --> 00:57:08.382
idea that the US government was going to

00:57:08.422 --> 00:57:12.222
flag anthropic as a national security

00:57:12.282 --> 00:57:15.762
threat or for making these demands.

00:57:16.362 --> 00:57:18.423
I think it is very concerning that the

00:57:18.463 --> 00:57:20.603
US government was so insistent originally

00:57:20.824 --> 00:57:24.085
that like the ability to spy on US

00:57:24.105 --> 00:57:26.365
citizens domestically was like a hard line

00:57:26.385 --> 00:57:27.405
that they needed to have

00:57:28.346 --> 00:57:30.168
not roped enough in this application,

00:57:30.208 --> 00:57:32.170
especially because this is an agreement

00:57:33.130 --> 00:57:34.873
between AI companies and the military.

00:57:36.235 --> 00:57:38.898
Certainly not the people you would want

00:57:39.739 --> 00:57:41.360
surveilling on your own citizens.

00:57:42.260 --> 00:57:42.521
But

00:57:44.884 --> 00:57:45.384
Yeah, I mean,

00:57:45.423 --> 00:57:47.304
there's problems with AI everywhere.

00:57:47.324 --> 00:57:49.425
I think Jordan brings up a good point

00:57:49.485 --> 00:57:51.646
here that even if there are safeguards

00:57:51.666 --> 00:57:53.427
against US citizens that eventually get

00:57:53.527 --> 00:57:55.088
added on, all of this technology,

00:57:55.108 --> 00:57:56.907
which we already know is extremely

00:57:57.407 --> 00:57:58.048
unreliable,

00:57:58.168 --> 00:58:00.568
is going to be used in military operations

00:58:01.030 --> 00:58:01.769
around the world.

00:58:02.110 --> 00:58:04.050
And all of this AI stuff,

00:58:04.170 --> 00:58:04.911
like you mentioned,

00:58:06.871 --> 00:58:08.132
It's come out very recently.

00:58:08.331 --> 00:58:08.632
I mean,

00:58:08.911 --> 00:58:10.452
none of this stuff is like super well

00:58:10.472 --> 00:58:12.574
tested by any means.

00:58:13.273 --> 00:58:15.715
It's all just a lot of tech companies

00:58:15.815 --> 00:58:18.056
really trying to jam this product into as

00:58:18.117 --> 00:58:20.717
many possible segments as they can.

00:58:20.737 --> 00:58:21.097
And of course,

00:58:21.117 --> 00:58:22.599
that would include the government and the

00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:23.139
military.

00:58:23.759 --> 00:58:27.760
And it's all about getting a return on

00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:28.722
this massive,

00:58:28.882 --> 00:58:30.523
massive investment that they've all made

00:58:30.722 --> 00:58:32.603
into AI development.

00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:40.222
it just it's it's becoming an actively

00:58:40.282 --> 00:58:42.264
dangerous situation i think we can see

00:58:42.324 --> 00:58:46.706
from from this story here and i totally

00:58:46.726 --> 00:58:49.626
agree with you that it really makes no

00:58:49.706 --> 00:58:52.628
sense that um this ai use and all

00:58:52.668 --> 00:58:54.009
the data collection that they're doing

00:58:54.789 --> 00:58:57.130
will make a real difference in terms of

00:58:57.210 --> 00:59:01.273
like stopping terrorist threats or plots

00:59:01.492 --> 00:59:03.393
or like affecting people's everyday lives

00:59:03.693 --> 00:59:03.773
um

00:59:04.514 --> 00:59:06.514
And this is an argument that people have

00:59:06.534 --> 00:59:07.855
known about and people have been making

00:59:07.934 --> 00:59:10.536
for literal decades,

00:59:10.675 --> 00:59:12.797
even before like the Internet and

00:59:12.836 --> 00:59:14.876
computers were commonplace or used by

00:59:14.936 --> 00:59:15.356
everyone.

00:59:17.177 --> 00:59:18.518
It reminds me of like all of the

00:59:18.538 --> 00:59:20.579
reports that came out following nine

00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:23.420
eleven in the US about how certain

00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.081
government agencies had intelligence that

00:59:26.141 --> 00:59:27.541
indicated this might be happening,

00:59:28.121 --> 00:59:29.422
whether or not that was passed along to

00:59:29.461 --> 00:59:30.382
the FBI.

00:59:30.842 --> 00:59:32.182
Like before this happened,

00:59:32.483 --> 00:59:33.282
were people aware?

00:59:34.603 --> 00:59:36.545
i think the general consensus there was

00:59:36.644 --> 00:59:39.967
like you know nothing was as definitive it

00:59:40.007 --> 00:59:42.307
wasn't completely reasonable for like

00:59:42.949 --> 00:59:45.190
anyone to expect that that event was going

00:59:45.230 --> 00:59:46.871
to happen ahead of time but certainly like

00:59:46.891 --> 00:59:49.552
these people were in the systems and that

00:59:49.612 --> 00:59:52.054
data didn't lead to anything actionable

00:59:52.134 --> 00:59:54.275
happening and it's similar to the to the

00:59:54.295 --> 00:59:56.677
case you talked about um where where the

00:59:56.717 --> 00:59:58.677
perpetrator was in their systems and was

00:59:58.717 --> 00:59:59.378
already flagged

01:00:00.059 --> 01:00:02.719
And that didn't lead to anything being

01:00:02.780 --> 01:00:05.181
stopped because all of this data

01:00:05.201 --> 01:00:05.581
collection,

01:00:05.681 --> 01:00:09.163
it isn't leading to any positive outcomes

01:00:09.222 --> 01:00:09.422
here.

01:00:09.643 --> 01:00:14.344
They're using national security, I think,

01:00:14.885 --> 01:00:19.427
as a front for what they really want

01:00:19.447 --> 01:00:20.447
to do with all of this data.

01:00:20.507 --> 01:00:23.668
But much like a lot of

01:00:24.528 --> 01:00:26.951
security protections that we have,

01:00:27.771 --> 01:00:29.512
like the TSA, for example.

01:00:29.972 --> 01:00:32.355
This is just a matter of security theater

01:00:32.755 --> 01:00:34.597
in a lot of cases that isn't actually

01:00:35.277 --> 01:00:36.557
doing the things that it sets out to

01:00:36.617 --> 01:00:36.717
do.

01:00:36.737 --> 01:00:38.960
You know,

01:00:39.059 --> 01:00:40.460
they have plenty of other reasons to want

01:00:40.481 --> 01:00:40.961
this data.

01:00:41.061 --> 01:00:43.744
And I think national security or stopping

01:00:44.123 --> 01:00:46.905
threats or stopping terrorists or

01:00:47.005 --> 01:00:48.847
protecting children or whatever excuse you

01:00:48.867 --> 01:00:49.969
want to you want to come up with

01:00:49.989 --> 01:00:50.349
these days.

01:00:52.449 --> 01:00:55.311
All of that is just an easy way

01:00:55.371 --> 01:00:58.414
to put a bow on things and describe

01:00:58.434 --> 01:01:00.094
it without having to really get into the

01:01:00.135 --> 01:01:00.675
details.

01:01:00.755 --> 01:01:02.556
But if you did get into these details,

01:01:02.577 --> 01:01:04.018
you would see that all of the stuff,

01:01:04.398 --> 01:01:06.880
the AI stuff that we're introducing into

01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:07.619
the military,

01:01:07.780 --> 01:01:08.900
all of the data collection that we're

01:01:08.940 --> 01:01:12.443
doing on US citizens and people all around

01:01:12.463 --> 01:01:13.123
the world, really,

01:01:14.784 --> 01:01:16.146
all of this stuff is just completely

01:01:16.365 --> 01:01:17.047
unnecessary.

01:01:17.266 --> 01:01:17.987
And it's

01:01:20.708 --> 01:01:22.789
bad it's bad for citizens of the us

01:01:22.829 --> 01:01:25.070
it's bad for for everyone else in the

01:01:25.090 --> 01:01:28.092
world and it's becoming actively dangerous

01:01:28.351 --> 01:01:29.532
um and i think more people need to

01:01:29.552 --> 01:01:34.554
be concerned about all of that yeah i

01:01:34.574 --> 01:01:37.414
mean we could make a whole podcast like

01:01:37.454 --> 01:01:38.576
not even just an episode we can make

01:01:38.596 --> 01:01:40.436
a whole series out of all the problems

01:01:40.476 --> 01:01:41.777
with ai but um

01:01:43.307 --> 01:01:45.170
One of the things also that Jordan said

01:01:45.190 --> 01:01:46.050
that I thought was pretty good is AI

01:01:46.130 --> 01:01:47.690
is pretty biased based on its training

01:01:47.710 --> 01:01:47.971
data.

01:01:48.731 --> 01:01:50.253
That's historically been a big problem,

01:01:50.333 --> 01:01:51.873
especially in a policing context,

01:01:51.994 --> 01:01:53.213
is a lot of people have accused it

01:01:53.233 --> 01:01:53.293
of...

01:01:55.956 --> 01:01:57.416
One thing I've learned is if you go

01:01:57.436 --> 01:01:59.018
looking for a problem, you will find one.

01:01:59.478 --> 01:02:00.117
Generally speaking,

01:02:00.177 --> 01:02:01.699
whatever you go looking for, you find.

01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:07.503
And so if police, for example, feed it

01:02:08.539 --> 01:02:11.242
uh feed ai like all these uh these

01:02:11.262 --> 01:02:13.103
arrest records right and let's say they

01:02:13.143 --> 01:02:14.423
all happen in the east side of town

01:02:15.284 --> 01:02:17.166
then these this ai is going to be

01:02:17.206 --> 01:02:18.467
like oh all the crime is in the

01:02:18.527 --> 01:02:19.889
east side of town more cops are going

01:02:19.909 --> 01:02:20.769
to go to the east side of town

01:02:20.789 --> 01:02:22.070
they're going to find more crime because

01:02:22.090 --> 01:02:24.333
there's more cops meanwhile the west side

01:02:24.353 --> 01:02:25.474
of town is where all the white collar

01:02:25.494 --> 01:02:27.916
crime is happening um but you know it's

01:02:28.016 --> 01:02:30.438
it's just it's such a it's such an

01:02:30.518 --> 01:02:31.539
imperfect thing and

01:02:32.489 --> 01:02:33.769
There have been, so far,

01:02:33.909 --> 01:02:35.431
there have not been any studies that have

01:02:35.451 --> 01:02:37.271
shown that all this mass surveillance

01:02:37.472 --> 01:02:40.313
actually stops crime or has any meaningful

01:02:40.414 --> 01:02:42.655
impact on lowering crime rates.

01:02:43.496 --> 01:02:45.137
And one of the big things that concerns

01:02:45.177 --> 01:02:47.079
me with relying so much on AI for

01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:47.900
everything is,

01:02:48.659 --> 01:02:49.661
if you guys have never seen the movie

01:02:49.681 --> 01:02:51.141
Brazil, I highly recommend it.

01:02:51.722 --> 01:02:52.623
The ending's a little bleak,

01:02:52.663 --> 01:02:53.422
I'm just gonna warn you.

01:02:54.643 --> 01:02:56.826
But it's basically this very absurdist

01:02:57.485 --> 01:03:00.047
sci-fi movie where this guy gets

01:03:00.108 --> 01:03:01.028
wrongfully arrested

01:03:02.048 --> 01:03:04.469
And his neighbor witnesses the arrest and

01:03:04.510 --> 01:03:04.889
he's like,

01:03:05.050 --> 01:03:06.650
I don't think they got the right guy.

01:03:06.751 --> 01:03:07.931
Like I've lived next to this guy for

01:03:07.972 --> 01:03:08.771
twenty years or whatever.

01:03:08.791 --> 01:03:09.632
He's never been an issue.

01:03:10.353 --> 01:03:12.434
And so he basically goes off on a

01:03:12.474 --> 01:03:14.414
quest to try and deal with the bureaucracy

01:03:14.534 --> 01:03:16.494
of like you arrested the wrong guy.

01:03:16.875 --> 01:03:18.076
And he keeps running into people who are

01:03:18.096 --> 01:03:19.637
basically just like, well,

01:03:19.657 --> 01:03:20.536
that's what the computer said.

01:03:20.976 --> 01:03:22.137
Like, that's what my paperwork says.

01:03:22.177 --> 01:03:23.858
That's that's just like, no,

01:03:23.878 --> 01:03:24.739
but that's what it says.

01:03:24.878 --> 01:03:25.278
And like,

01:03:25.438 --> 01:03:27.199
that's one of the big concerns that I

01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:29.001
have with all this stuff and all this.

01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:31.342
letting the machines do the thinking for

01:03:31.443 --> 01:03:32.983
us shout out to the dune fans in

01:03:33.003 --> 01:03:35.927
the room is that like we're entering this

01:03:35.987 --> 01:03:38.509
world where it's like when the ai gets

01:03:38.528 --> 01:03:39.929
it wrong what happens they're just going

01:03:39.949 --> 01:03:40.971
to be like well that's what the computer

01:03:41.010 --> 01:03:43.293
said yes but the computer's wrong yeah but

01:03:43.313 --> 01:03:44.855
that's what the computer said it's like oh

01:03:44.875 --> 01:03:47.577
my god dude so yeah it's it's a

01:03:47.617 --> 01:03:50.420
very scary time we're entering into yes

01:03:53.719 --> 01:03:57.661
We are going to get into some questions

01:03:57.701 --> 01:03:59.322
from live streamers in a bit.

01:03:59.362 --> 01:04:00.682
But before we do that,

01:04:01.563 --> 01:04:03.706
we have an article here from four oh

01:04:03.726 --> 01:04:04.425
four media.

01:04:04.806 --> 01:04:07.827
The headline is proton mail helped FBI

01:04:07.929 --> 01:04:11.070
unmask anonymous stop cop city protester.

01:04:11.510 --> 01:04:13.393
A court record reviewed by four of our

01:04:13.432 --> 01:04:15.556
media shows privacy focused email provider

01:04:15.596 --> 01:04:17.737
ProtonMail handed over payment data

01:04:17.757 --> 01:04:20.400
related to a stop Cups email account to

01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:21.202
the Swiss government,

01:04:21.561 --> 01:04:23.023
which handed it to the FBI.

01:04:26.072 --> 01:04:28.353
So I'll read the beginning of this article

01:04:28.393 --> 01:04:28.634
quick.

01:04:28.693 --> 01:04:30.693
Privacy-focused email provider ProtonMail

01:04:30.713 --> 01:04:32.255
provided Swiss authorities with the

01:04:32.295 --> 01:04:33.994
payment data that the FBI then used to

01:04:34.014 --> 01:04:35.896
determine who was allegedly behind an

01:04:35.936 --> 01:04:38.576
anonymous account affiliated with the Stop

01:04:38.596 --> 01:04:40.536
Cop City movement in Atlanta,

01:04:40.617 --> 01:04:42.918
according to a court record reviewed by

01:04:43.358 --> 01:04:44.018
Foro Fori.

01:04:45.358 --> 01:04:47.280
The records that they reviewed provide

01:04:47.362 --> 01:04:49.164
insight into the sort of data that

01:04:49.204 --> 01:04:49.903
ProtonMail,

01:04:50.224 --> 01:04:51.967
which prides itself on both its end-to-end

01:04:52.027 --> 01:04:53.588
encryption and that is only governed by

01:04:53.668 --> 01:04:54.530
Swiss privacy law,

01:04:54.789 --> 01:04:56.532
can and does provide to third parties.

01:04:58.445 --> 01:05:01.327
Um, so pretty much this,

01:05:01.447 --> 01:05:04.269
this entire story, um, I,

01:05:04.289 --> 01:05:05.411
I kinda disagree with,

01:05:05.670 --> 01:05:06.431
with the headline a bit,

01:05:06.490 --> 01:05:08.873
although obviously FBI involvement was

01:05:08.932 --> 01:05:09.213
here.

01:05:09.313 --> 01:05:10.434
It is important, I think,

01:05:10.554 --> 01:05:12.014
to draw this distinction, um,

01:05:12.074 --> 01:05:13.916
between like, uh,

01:05:14.255 --> 01:05:16.356
a foreign government asking proton for

01:05:16.376 --> 01:05:18.778
this information versus, um, the,

01:05:18.898 --> 01:05:19.980
the Swiss courts.

01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:23.360
asking Proton for this information because

01:05:23.422 --> 01:05:24.141
in this case,

01:05:25.362 --> 01:05:27.983
the FBI did go through those channels and

01:05:28.083 --> 01:05:31.686
the Swiss courts demanded that Proton hand

01:05:31.726 --> 01:05:32.545
this data over.

01:05:32.885 --> 01:05:34.106
And I think that this is a big

01:05:34.146 --> 01:05:36.588
difference from a lot of like big tech

01:05:36.628 --> 01:05:37.688
companies, for example,

01:05:37.768 --> 01:05:41.170
which will comply with court orders from

01:05:41.311 --> 01:05:43.472
from other countries where they're

01:05:45.373 --> 01:05:47.233
Like they might not necessarily fall under

01:05:47.273 --> 01:05:48.054
their jurisdiction,

01:05:48.074 --> 01:05:50.115
but they will comply with them anyways,

01:05:50.175 --> 01:05:51.697
rather than like demanding everything go

01:05:51.717 --> 01:05:53.237
through the U.S.

01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:54.860
in a lot of big tech cases.

01:05:55.480 --> 01:05:56.320
And so.

01:05:56.380 --> 01:05:59.963
There is I do think you have to

01:05:59.983 --> 01:06:01.483
draw this distinction because.

01:06:01.503 --> 01:06:03.945
You know,

01:06:04.965 --> 01:06:07.148
the Swiss courts do limit a bit.

01:06:10.396 --> 01:06:11.978
as far as like what what information can

01:06:12.018 --> 01:06:12.619
be requested.

01:06:12.659 --> 01:06:15.382
But obviously we've seen a number of times

01:06:15.461 --> 01:06:19.826
that they have been willing to demand the

01:06:19.846 --> 01:06:22.889
data of activists in this case who aren't

01:06:22.929 --> 01:06:23.630
necessarily

01:06:26.260 --> 01:06:27.141
doing anything illegal.

01:06:27.240 --> 01:06:29.902
I don't know exactly what these people are

01:06:29.922 --> 01:06:31.143
being accused of,

01:06:32.222 --> 01:06:34.563
but I do know that charges against a

01:06:34.603 --> 01:06:35.925
lot of the people in this case,

01:06:36.005 --> 01:06:38.085
according to for media in this article,

01:06:38.146 --> 01:06:38.425
actually,

01:06:38.445 --> 01:06:39.766
they said that they've been dropped.

01:06:39.806 --> 01:06:42.106
So it's not clear like who's involved or

01:06:42.168 --> 01:06:45.628
like what level of certainty the FBI even

01:06:45.688 --> 01:06:47.469
had in the first place as to like

01:06:47.550 --> 01:06:49.831
what crimes the person behind this email

01:06:51.431 --> 01:06:52.351
supposedly committed.

01:06:53.925 --> 01:06:54.605
At the end of the day,

01:06:56.246 --> 01:06:59.367
kind of similar to the big story with

01:06:59.427 --> 01:07:02.688
Proton revealing the IP address of a

01:07:02.768 --> 01:07:05.630
French activist a little while ago,

01:07:09.192 --> 01:07:11.072
the issue isn't necessarily the fact that

01:07:11.092 --> 01:07:12.893
they're handing over information,

01:07:13.074 --> 01:07:14.614
although it's certainly not great that

01:07:14.635 --> 01:07:16.195
they have this information to hand over in

01:07:16.215 --> 01:07:19.637
the first place because we can look at

01:07:19.677 --> 01:07:20.438
court cases

01:07:22.759 --> 01:07:25.342
from signal for example where the amount

01:07:25.382 --> 01:07:26.844
of information that they have and do

01:07:26.884 --> 01:07:29.146
handover is extremely extremely limited

01:07:29.527 --> 01:07:31.429
whereas it seems like a lot of uh

01:07:31.608 --> 01:07:34.731
data that proton has is is not protected

01:07:34.811 --> 01:07:38.536
as you would expect um but i think

01:07:39.978 --> 01:07:41.739
it really just highlights the importance

01:07:42.059 --> 01:07:42.199
of

01:07:44.168 --> 01:07:47.431
understanding what data you have is

01:07:47.471 --> 01:07:49.472
protected and isn't protected when you use

01:07:49.512 --> 01:07:50.893
any service, including Proton.

01:07:52.253 --> 01:07:55.076
Because the encryption that is used in a

01:07:55.096 --> 01:07:55.655
lot of cases,

01:07:55.715 --> 01:07:57.197
and certainly in the case of Proton,

01:07:57.217 --> 01:07:58.418
which is an email provider,

01:07:58.717 --> 01:08:00.679
which is already not a great technology

01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:02.661
for protecting this sort of metadata.

01:08:05.402 --> 01:08:07.123
The encryption that's used even in

01:08:07.282 --> 01:08:09.043
end-to-end encrypted products varies

01:08:09.304 --> 01:08:09.804
widely.

01:08:10.784 --> 01:08:13.626
So we could think about Signal again,

01:08:13.686 --> 01:08:15.467
just for a simpler example,

01:08:16.487 --> 01:08:17.807
compared to WhatsApp.

01:08:18.488 --> 01:08:21.128
They actually use very similar encryption

01:08:21.168 --> 01:08:21.748
technologies.

01:08:21.788 --> 01:08:24.930
WhatsApp has famously used the Signal

01:08:25.011 --> 01:08:27.331
protocol to encrypt those messages for a

01:08:27.372 --> 01:08:27.752
while,

01:08:27.891 --> 01:08:28.091
but

01:08:28.731 --> 01:08:29.492
unlike signal,

01:08:29.511 --> 01:08:30.932
which has put in a lot of effort

01:08:30.972 --> 01:08:33.073
to minimizing the amount of metadata that

01:08:33.094 --> 01:08:34.873
that's collected and logged by the

01:08:34.894 --> 01:08:35.314
company,

01:08:36.494 --> 01:08:39.595
WhatsApp and their parent company meta are

01:08:39.735 --> 01:08:41.536
collecting and storing all sorts of

01:08:41.796 --> 01:08:42.957
information about like,

01:08:43.277 --> 01:08:44.637
who's registered on their service,

01:08:44.757 --> 01:08:45.858
when they're using the app,

01:08:46.037 --> 01:08:47.198
who they're communicating with,

01:08:47.217 --> 01:08:48.538
they have all of that information.

01:08:49.219 --> 01:08:51.359
And in that place places you at risk,

01:08:51.479 --> 01:08:53.921
even though WhatsApp is end to end

01:08:53.961 --> 01:08:54.421
encrypted.

01:08:56.322 --> 01:08:57.421
And similarly here,

01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:00.801
At the end of the day,

01:09:01.301 --> 01:09:03.301
I don't think it's reasonable to expect

01:09:03.341 --> 01:09:08.622
Proton to not comply with court orders,

01:09:08.662 --> 01:09:09.043
of course.

01:09:09.144 --> 01:09:09.783
I don't know.

01:09:11.104 --> 01:09:12.845
Maybe you saw this in Consignment,

01:09:12.864 --> 01:09:13.965
but I don't know if I saw in

01:09:14.005 --> 01:09:17.067
this article whether Proton fought back

01:09:17.106 --> 01:09:18.707
against this court order or to what

01:09:18.787 --> 01:09:19.327
extent.

01:09:19.587 --> 01:09:21.228
And so I'd be interested to know about

01:09:21.287 --> 01:09:21.488
that.

01:09:21.547 --> 01:09:22.368
But I will say,

01:09:23.529 --> 01:09:24.368
at the end of the day,

01:09:27.831 --> 01:09:28.451
looking at the...

01:09:30.934 --> 01:09:33.157
I think especially after the French

01:09:33.216 --> 01:09:33.896
activist thing,

01:09:34.238 --> 01:09:35.899
Proton has made a bit of this more

01:09:35.939 --> 01:09:37.820
clear and it is pretty clear in their

01:09:37.841 --> 01:09:38.721
privacy policy,

01:09:38.761 --> 01:09:40.064
like what information they have.

01:09:40.404 --> 01:09:41.765
And I think that people just need to

01:09:41.824 --> 01:09:43.667
go into situations like this,

01:09:43.827 --> 01:09:46.489
assuming that any data that they give to

01:09:46.510 --> 01:09:47.971
a third party service provider could

01:09:47.992 --> 01:09:50.975
potentially be either leaked in a data

01:09:51.015 --> 01:09:52.957
breach or handed over in a case like

01:09:52.976 --> 01:09:53.216
this.

01:09:54.337 --> 01:09:57.082
and need to plan accordingly because the

01:09:57.282 --> 01:10:00.926
only protection that you can really rely

01:10:00.985 --> 01:10:03.509
on is strong encryption of all of the

01:10:03.529 --> 01:10:04.529
data you want to protect.

01:10:05.030 --> 01:10:07.793
You can't rely on privacy policies.

01:10:08.135 --> 01:10:11.779
You can't rely on companies avoiding court

01:10:11.878 --> 01:10:12.199
orders.

01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:14.581
if they have the data,

01:10:16.282 --> 01:10:17.483
it will eventually be leaked,

01:10:17.523 --> 01:10:19.543
whether it's the company giving it away or

01:10:19.583 --> 01:10:22.145
whether it's a hack,

01:10:22.185 --> 01:10:23.426
which seems inevitable.

01:10:23.666 --> 01:10:24.907
I mean, Nate,

01:10:24.966 --> 01:10:26.608
you publish like a data breach roundup

01:10:26.927 --> 01:10:28.148
every single week, right?

01:10:28.488 --> 01:10:30.949
With all sorts of companies that are

01:10:31.050 --> 01:10:32.570
hacked all the time.

01:10:32.631 --> 01:10:34.532
I think it's more than most people would

01:10:34.572 --> 01:10:35.051
expect.

01:10:35.872 --> 01:10:36.393
And yeah,

01:10:36.432 --> 01:10:37.552
you can find that on our website if

01:10:37.573 --> 01:10:37.953
you want to

01:10:38.913 --> 01:10:40.555
go back in time and see all of

01:10:40.574 --> 01:10:45.315
these happening but um yeah you have to

01:10:45.355 --> 01:10:47.796
rely on encryption and you have to really

01:10:47.837 --> 01:10:49.476
take a look at what these companies are

01:10:49.818 --> 01:10:52.759
encrypting because proton is taking a lot

01:10:52.798 --> 01:10:55.498
of data that they do not encrypt at

01:10:55.519 --> 01:10:56.899
the end of the day and you need

01:10:56.920 --> 01:11:02.962
to plan around that yeah it's um

01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:05.900
Yeah, real quick,

01:11:05.940 --> 01:11:07.644
fun story on the data breach note.

01:11:08.204 --> 01:11:09.947
I started doing that back many,

01:11:09.987 --> 01:11:10.688
many moons ago.

01:11:11.349 --> 01:11:13.230
I started my own just solo podcast.

01:11:14.012 --> 01:11:16.015
And when I ended up teaming up with

01:11:16.055 --> 01:11:17.176
Henry at Surveillance Reporter,

01:11:17.658 --> 01:11:20.440
that was my one stipulation is I want

01:11:20.462 --> 01:11:21.662
to bring the data breach section

01:11:22.423 --> 01:11:23.743
And that's kind of why I started doing

01:11:23.783 --> 01:11:25.185
it here as well is because,

01:11:25.725 --> 01:11:26.164
like you said,

01:11:26.225 --> 01:11:27.805
I think people don't realize how

01:11:28.105 --> 01:11:30.206
frighteningly common data breaches are.

01:11:30.806 --> 01:11:32.106
And that was kind of like my thing

01:11:32.127 --> 01:11:33.967
is like I wanted people to realize, like,

01:11:34.347 --> 01:11:35.408
if for no other reason,

01:11:35.467 --> 01:11:37.207
take your privacy seriously than the fact

01:11:37.229 --> 01:11:38.908
that this happens literally every day.

01:11:40.890 --> 01:11:41.470
But yeah, it's...

01:11:42.426 --> 01:11:45.849
I think the reason I always like to

01:11:45.868 --> 01:11:48.511
share these stories about Proton sharing

01:11:48.551 --> 01:11:51.154
data is not to beat up on Proton

01:11:51.194 --> 01:11:53.577
necessarily, but I mean, for one,

01:11:53.896 --> 01:11:54.797
I already know there's going to be a

01:11:54.837 --> 01:11:56.020
lot of people out there spreading

01:11:56.079 --> 01:11:57.640
conspiracy theories about how Proton's a

01:11:57.661 --> 01:11:59.143
honeypot and this just proves it.

01:12:00.484 --> 01:12:03.087
But it's like you're saying, like email...

01:12:04.765 --> 01:12:05.326
So many.

01:12:06.966 --> 01:12:08.046
I think this is actually in one of

01:12:08.087 --> 01:12:09.608
our upcoming videos here that should be

01:12:09.667 --> 01:12:10.309
coming out soon.

01:12:11.189 --> 01:12:13.711
So many of the technologies that run the

01:12:13.770 --> 01:12:16.153
internet were invented literally in like

01:12:16.172 --> 01:12:18.534
the nineteen sixties when there were ten

01:12:18.555 --> 01:12:20.275
people online and they were all like

01:12:20.315 --> 01:12:23.078
college kids and there was no need for

01:12:23.118 --> 01:12:25.599
security because nobody was doing banking

01:12:25.639 --> 01:12:26.319
transactions.

01:12:26.380 --> 01:12:28.360
Nobody was doing sensitive military plans.

01:12:28.400 --> 01:12:29.442
Nobody was sharing like

01:12:29.900 --> 01:12:31.002
intimate communication.

01:12:31.363 --> 01:12:32.805
It was all just literally like research

01:12:32.824 --> 01:12:33.867
that was all going to be made public

01:12:33.886 --> 01:12:34.747
at some point anyways.

01:12:34.828 --> 01:12:35.069
Right.

01:12:35.469 --> 01:12:36.791
And like maybe a few notes here and

01:12:36.810 --> 01:12:37.893
there about like, you know, Hey,

01:12:37.912 --> 01:12:39.114
did you get the document or whatever?

01:12:39.175 --> 01:12:40.155
But it,

01:12:40.197 --> 01:12:41.658
so security was really kind of an

01:12:41.779 --> 01:12:42.340
afterthought.

01:12:43.020 --> 01:12:44.802
And unfortunately as the internet grew and

01:12:44.842 --> 01:12:45.243
scaled,

01:12:46.005 --> 01:12:48.025
we kind of just kept bolting afterthoughts

01:12:48.265 --> 01:12:50.046
onto this, this stuff.

01:12:50.106 --> 01:12:51.268
And that's how we end up with things

01:12:51.307 --> 01:12:52.908
like encrypted email, which, you know,

01:12:53.368 --> 01:12:54.929
proton is great to does great.

01:12:55.609 --> 01:12:58.211
But both of them and mailbox and like

01:12:58.310 --> 01:12:58.770
all of these,

01:12:58.810 --> 01:13:00.631
they're really just applying band aids to

01:13:00.692 --> 01:13:01.853
technologies that were never really

01:13:01.872 --> 01:13:02.773
designed to be secure.

01:13:03.313 --> 01:13:05.673
And that's why we like things that things

01:13:05.694 --> 01:13:07.954
like signal that were kind of like,

01:13:07.994 --> 01:13:09.435
what if we went into the ground floor

01:13:09.555 --> 01:13:11.037
and tried to be as secure as possible?

01:13:12.051 --> 01:13:13.631
But even then, those have use cases.

01:13:13.650 --> 01:13:14.731
Like, I always push back on that.

01:13:15.091 --> 01:13:16.391
A personal pet peeve of mine,

01:13:16.891 --> 01:13:18.592
I hate when people are like, oh, well,

01:13:18.613 --> 01:13:20.353
you shouldn't use encrypted email because

01:13:21.052 --> 01:13:22.474
email was never designed to be secure.

01:13:22.913 --> 01:13:23.734
Use Signal instead.

01:13:23.814 --> 01:13:24.434
And it's like, great.

01:13:25.073 --> 01:13:26.914
The day my bank agrees to send me

01:13:26.935 --> 01:13:27.675
a Signal message,

01:13:28.234 --> 01:13:29.914
I will be in agreement with you.

01:13:29.954 --> 01:13:30.756
But we're just not there.

01:13:30.836 --> 01:13:32.756
Like, unfortunately, again,

01:13:32.815 --> 01:13:34.356
we still have all these legacy

01:13:34.396 --> 01:13:35.737
technologies that are floating around

01:13:36.256 --> 01:13:37.936
because they just are.

01:13:38.237 --> 01:13:39.877
And I think...

01:13:41.536 --> 01:13:44.078
I think these stories are unfortunate

01:13:44.118 --> 01:13:46.739
because Proton,

01:13:48.801 --> 01:13:50.362
like every company is going to try to

01:13:50.402 --> 01:13:52.002
market why you should use them, right?

01:13:52.203 --> 01:13:53.824
And I think for,

01:13:54.005 --> 01:13:55.386
especially for the target audience of

01:13:55.426 --> 01:13:56.225
people like Proton,

01:13:57.027 --> 01:13:59.108
it's very difficult to explain to people

01:13:59.729 --> 01:14:04.212
in a nutshell why they need something like

01:14:04.252 --> 01:14:05.953
Proton or PGP or anything.

01:14:06.613 --> 01:14:08.414
It's very difficult to explain to them why

01:14:08.454 --> 01:14:10.115
Gmail and Yahoo are not secure.

01:14:11.354 --> 01:14:14.015
And also to explain nuance, right?

01:14:14.095 --> 01:14:15.694
It's a very fine line to thread,

01:14:15.895 --> 01:14:16.975
especially when you're talking to the

01:14:16.996 --> 01:14:17.416
masses.

01:14:18.216 --> 01:14:21.016
And I think there's definitely places

01:14:21.037 --> 01:14:22.016
where Proton could do better.

01:14:22.056 --> 01:14:23.237
Like I think with that French activist

01:14:23.356 --> 01:14:23.516
one,

01:14:24.877 --> 01:14:26.537
Proton did actually change some of the

01:14:26.578 --> 01:14:30.738
wording on their website because it wasn't

01:14:30.838 --> 01:14:31.779
technically wrong,

01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:32.979
but I could see how somebody could get

01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:33.739
the wrong impression.

01:14:33.960 --> 01:14:36.820
And I don't know, this stuff,

01:14:37.820 --> 01:14:40.521
I'm trying to put my thoughts in order

01:14:40.561 --> 01:14:40.702
here.

01:14:42.461 --> 01:14:45.462
It's frustrating because I don't think

01:14:45.543 --> 01:14:47.225
Proton necessarily did anything wrong

01:14:47.265 --> 01:14:48.845
here,

01:14:48.865 --> 01:14:51.929
but I could see how people could be

01:14:51.969 --> 01:14:53.529
lulled into a false sense of security.

01:14:53.850 --> 01:14:56.391
And I do want to point out,

01:14:56.431 --> 01:14:58.493
somebody pointed out here in the chats,

01:14:58.514 --> 01:15:00.336
they said like no end-to-end encrypted

01:15:00.355 --> 01:15:01.235
data was given away.

01:15:01.976 --> 01:15:04.099
The account owner simply had bad OPSEC.

01:15:04.979 --> 01:15:08.181
It's this person, like I will admit,

01:15:08.322 --> 01:15:09.943
I pay for my Proton account with a

01:15:09.983 --> 01:15:10.264
card.

01:15:10.423 --> 01:15:11.564
I use a privacy.com card.

01:15:12.405 --> 01:15:13.386
which is linked to my name.

01:15:13.506 --> 01:15:13.846
Like if,

01:15:13.947 --> 01:15:15.886
if I was the person in this scenario,

01:15:15.926 --> 01:15:17.427
for whatever reason, um,

01:15:17.448 --> 01:15:19.427
the FBI could request data from proton

01:15:19.788 --> 01:15:20.269
proton.

01:15:20.288 --> 01:15:21.649
They, here's their card info.

01:15:21.668 --> 01:15:23.149
They could trace that back to privacy.com

01:15:23.170 --> 01:15:24.029
who could trace it back to me.

01:15:24.550 --> 01:15:25.770
I know that's not fully anonymous,

01:15:26.570 --> 01:15:27.650
but also I'm not an activist.

01:15:27.751 --> 01:15:29.612
If I was doing like serious,

01:15:29.851 --> 01:15:31.193
heavy activism work,

01:15:31.953 --> 01:15:34.514
I would probably take some more steps.

01:15:34.634 --> 01:15:35.934
I don't really want to victim blame here,

01:15:35.974 --> 01:15:37.395
but I guess, um,

01:15:38.432 --> 01:15:39.514
And Proton pointed that out too.

01:15:39.554 --> 01:15:40.875
They said like, we do accept cash.

01:15:40.914 --> 01:15:42.195
We do accept cryptocurrency.

01:15:42.275 --> 01:15:43.277
They don't accept Monero.

01:15:43.858 --> 01:15:45.498
I'm going to always call out on that,

01:15:46.220 --> 01:15:48.561
but it's, yeah, it's, it's like, it's,

01:15:48.702 --> 01:15:50.462
it's important to know the limitations of

01:15:50.483 --> 01:15:50.863
a tool.

01:15:50.944 --> 01:15:51.264
And again,

01:15:51.323 --> 01:15:52.805
like I mentioned this earlier in the show,

01:15:53.125 --> 01:15:54.225
there's a difference between privacy and

01:15:54.305 --> 01:15:55.006
anonymity, right?

01:15:55.346 --> 01:15:56.988
Proton is not promising you anonymity,

01:15:57.009 --> 01:15:57.849
at least not by default.

01:15:57.868 --> 01:15:57.988
You're

01:16:01.695 --> 01:16:02.756
So I think it's just really important to

01:16:02.775 --> 01:16:04.556
keep in mind the limitations of these

01:16:04.577 --> 01:16:04.936
tools.

01:16:05.117 --> 01:16:07.817
And I just remembered you said is from

01:16:07.917 --> 01:16:08.516
what I understand,

01:16:08.556 --> 01:16:10.177
Proton did not push back on this order

01:16:11.497 --> 01:16:13.838
because they were informed that apparently

01:16:13.899 --> 01:16:14.559
this person,

01:16:14.979 --> 01:16:16.179
I don't know if charges were dropped.

01:16:16.238 --> 01:16:17.559
The article said that charges hadn't been

01:16:17.618 --> 01:16:18.078
filed.

01:16:19.180 --> 01:16:20.119
What exactly did they say?

01:16:21.239 --> 01:16:21.539
Uh,

01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:22.899
four or four media is not publishing the

01:16:22.939 --> 01:16:24.301
person's name because they don't appear to

01:16:24.320 --> 01:16:25.701
have been charged with a crime according

01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:27.001
to searches of court databases.

01:16:27.041 --> 01:16:28.020
So maybe they haven't been charged with a

01:16:28.041 --> 01:16:28.582
crime yet.

01:16:29.402 --> 01:16:30.282
Um, but yeah,

01:16:30.962 --> 01:16:31.622
Apparently,

01:16:31.842 --> 01:16:33.604
Proton was informed that the person in

01:16:33.645 --> 01:16:35.327
this situation was violent,

01:16:35.447 --> 01:16:37.429
that they had already shot at one officer,

01:16:37.988 --> 01:16:39.591
that they had explosives on them.

01:16:40.110 --> 01:16:41.011
I don't know how true that is.

01:16:41.472 --> 01:16:42.873
That's Proton's justification,

01:16:43.055 --> 01:16:44.855
and you are welcome to have your own

01:16:44.876 --> 01:16:47.099
opinions on whether or not that was

01:16:47.118 --> 01:16:47.979
justification enough.

01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:50.681
But it is...

01:16:52.461 --> 01:16:52.701
Yeah,

01:16:53.042 --> 01:16:55.225
it's – Proton does push back sometimes.

01:16:55.265 --> 01:16:56.466
They kind of do it on a case-by-case

01:16:56.487 --> 01:16:56.868
basis,

01:16:56.908 --> 01:16:58.210
which I don't know how I feel about

01:16:58.250 --> 01:16:58.430
that.

01:16:58.510 --> 01:16:59.912
But they try to get as much of

01:16:59.931 --> 01:17:01.154
the facts of the case as they can

01:17:01.213 --> 01:17:02.536
before deciding whether or not they want

01:17:02.555 --> 01:17:04.599
to push back on a core order.

01:17:04.679 --> 01:17:07.804
But yeah, it's –

01:17:08.932 --> 01:17:09.512
I don't know.

01:17:09.573 --> 01:17:10.234
I think for me,

01:17:10.274 --> 01:17:12.454
the big thing again is I hate seeing

01:17:12.475 --> 01:17:15.416
people confuse privacy with anonymity and

01:17:15.496 --> 01:17:17.476
get really upset and be like, oh,

01:17:17.497 --> 01:17:18.557
Proton shouldn't have complied.

01:17:18.597 --> 01:17:19.398
Proton even said this.

01:17:19.417 --> 01:17:20.399
I don't know if it was in here,

01:17:20.458 --> 01:17:22.920
but there was a Reddit thread where Proton

01:17:23.560 --> 01:17:24.600
issued an official statement,

01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:26.201
which was very professional.

01:17:26.220 --> 01:17:27.462
I was impressed by it.

01:17:27.881 --> 01:17:29.743
And they did mention basically that, look,

01:17:29.802 --> 01:17:30.944
nobody can operate above the law.

01:17:31.123 --> 01:17:32.805
There's not a country in the world where

01:17:32.824 --> 01:17:34.645
we're not subject to somebody's laws.

01:17:34.865 --> 01:17:35.006
And

01:17:35.645 --> 01:17:36.927
They choose to be under Swiss laws.

01:17:36.967 --> 01:17:38.390
They feel that Swiss laws are very

01:17:38.430 --> 01:17:40.532
thorough and set a very high bar.

01:17:41.673 --> 01:17:42.555
But yeah, I mean, ultimately,

01:17:42.574 --> 01:17:43.235
at the end of the day,

01:17:44.056 --> 01:17:45.878
I personally would be more worried by a

01:17:45.918 --> 01:17:47.240
company who ignores the law because

01:17:47.261 --> 01:17:48.422
they're going to get shut down eventually.

01:17:48.993 --> 01:17:50.654
Like they just they can't keep operating

01:17:50.713 --> 01:17:51.375
outside the law.

01:17:51.654 --> 01:17:53.737
So, yeah.

01:17:53.997 --> 01:17:55.537
Yeah, I, I agree.

01:17:55.557 --> 01:17:57.960
It's a very fine line for them to

01:17:57.979 --> 01:17:59.841
be treading here.

01:18:01.323 --> 01:18:02.083
At the end of the day,

01:18:02.224 --> 01:18:04.626
like the headline is accurate.

01:18:04.645 --> 01:18:06.006
They did help the authorities.

01:18:06.567 --> 01:18:08.128
And you might not expect that from a

01:18:08.189 --> 01:18:11.692
company that markets itself so heavily

01:18:12.072 --> 01:18:12.752
around privacy.

01:18:13.533 --> 01:18:15.373
And a lot of people in the privacy

01:18:15.394 --> 01:18:16.333
community, especially,

01:18:16.934 --> 01:18:18.994
I even saw a comment here from our

01:18:19.034 --> 01:18:19.875
team member, Jordan,

01:18:20.494 --> 01:18:21.755
saying they could make it more obvious the

01:18:21.774 --> 01:18:22.975
data isn't encrypted,

01:18:23.275 --> 01:18:25.155
which I think is certainly true.

01:18:26.317 --> 01:18:28.737
But at the same time,

01:18:29.516 --> 01:18:30.677
I think you have a really good point

01:18:30.757 --> 01:18:31.097
about

01:18:33.319 --> 01:18:36.684
like Proton needing to market this product

01:18:36.863 --> 01:18:40.207
towards an extremely broad audience who

01:18:40.247 --> 01:18:42.550
does not care about these problems and who

01:18:42.609 --> 01:18:45.252
isn't like going to be affected by court

01:18:45.313 --> 01:18:48.657
orders because the demographic that Proton

01:18:48.936 --> 01:18:50.279
is targeting is

01:18:51.319 --> 01:18:54.121
primarily businesses and people who are

01:18:54.140 --> 01:18:56.483
switching away from the Google Workspace

01:18:56.662 --> 01:18:57.323
suite of things.

01:18:57.922 --> 01:19:01.364
And it is just objectively true that

01:19:02.064 --> 01:19:04.506
switching from Google to Proton is a huge

01:19:04.546 --> 01:19:05.947
benefit for those people.

01:19:07.587 --> 01:19:08.787
No matter what they do, really,

01:19:09.128 --> 01:19:10.668
it's always going to be an improvement in

01:19:10.689 --> 01:19:11.909
their privacy and security.

01:19:12.609 --> 01:19:15.311
And a lot of these people are not

01:19:15.351 --> 01:19:15.851
going to be

01:19:17.354 --> 01:19:19.975
concerned about the nitty gritty details

01:19:20.015 --> 01:19:20.956
of some of this stuff.

01:19:21.695 --> 01:19:24.277
And also to Proton's credit,

01:19:25.676 --> 01:19:27.518
between their privacy policy and their

01:19:27.557 --> 01:19:31.498
blog and some pages on their website about

01:19:31.538 --> 01:19:32.319
transparency,

01:19:32.639 --> 01:19:34.439
for the people who are concerned about all

01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:35.180
of this stuff,

01:19:35.460 --> 01:19:37.300
you can find all of this information

01:19:38.619 --> 01:19:41.261
pretty accessibly on their site and in

01:19:41.301 --> 01:19:42.100
their resources.

01:19:42.180 --> 01:19:43.402
You do have to look for it.

01:19:44.622 --> 01:19:48.023
Which you can certainly argue is

01:19:48.623 --> 01:19:49.283
unfortunate,

01:19:49.583 --> 01:19:53.886
but also you can see that as a

01:19:53.926 --> 01:19:56.567
legitimate decision for them to make

01:19:56.606 --> 01:19:59.787
because it doesn't probably make a lot of

01:19:59.807 --> 01:20:02.248
sense to overwhelm the type of person or

01:20:02.288 --> 01:20:04.130
business that's switching from Google and

01:20:04.149 --> 01:20:06.631
Microsoft to Proton with all of this stuff

01:20:06.650 --> 01:20:08.930
that isn't going to impact them.

01:20:12.476 --> 01:20:13.859
It's a very hard problem to solve.

01:20:14.019 --> 01:20:17.481
And I think that for people who are

01:20:17.502 --> 01:20:18.542
in this situation,

01:20:20.003 --> 01:20:21.626
making it more clear that you need to

01:20:21.645 --> 01:20:26.009
be using tools like Signal or SimpleX or

01:20:26.069 --> 01:20:28.171
other messengers that are designed from

01:20:28.211 --> 01:20:30.153
the beginning to be secure rather than

01:20:31.094 --> 01:20:31.634
like you said,

01:20:31.713 --> 01:20:33.576
sixties technologies that have had a ton

01:20:33.615 --> 01:20:35.757
of stuff just bolted on over time.

01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:41.262
like that is the actual solution here and

01:20:41.323 --> 01:20:44.105
i think that like more tools that are

01:20:45.506 --> 01:20:47.689
designed to be as private as possible by

01:20:47.750 --> 01:20:49.390
default without having to worry about this

01:20:49.430 --> 01:20:51.472
makes a lot more sense than than proton

01:20:51.512 --> 01:20:54.195
like trying to describe every possible

01:20:54.235 --> 01:20:56.297
case where your data could be could be

01:20:56.398 --> 01:20:57.639
leaked or shared like this

01:21:00.121 --> 01:21:02.061
So yeah, it's kind of unfortunate,

01:21:02.622 --> 01:21:06.204
but I'd agree that I don't really know

01:21:06.284 --> 01:21:09.246
what else Proton can do in a situation

01:21:09.265 --> 01:21:09.726
like this.

01:21:13.529 --> 01:21:14.488
It's very challenging,

01:21:15.409 --> 01:21:16.850
and they've created this challenge for

01:21:16.871 --> 01:21:19.431
themselves because they chose to make an

01:21:19.511 --> 01:21:20.132
email service,

01:21:20.212 --> 01:21:22.274
but that is what they're doing at the

01:21:22.293 --> 01:21:22.793
end of the day,

01:21:23.014 --> 01:21:26.657
and there isn't a great way to handle

01:21:26.676 --> 01:21:27.457
this, unfortunately.

01:21:30.238 --> 01:21:31.203
Yeah, I agree.

01:21:31.384 --> 01:21:31.583
I mean,

01:21:31.645 --> 01:21:33.451
it's I think we hit a certain point

01:21:33.492 --> 01:21:34.253
where it becomes

01:21:37.304 --> 01:21:38.543
It becomes kind of a personal opinion

01:21:38.585 --> 01:21:40.085
thing in the sense that like, for example,

01:21:40.104 --> 01:21:43.845
this person here on YouTube said that I

01:21:43.886 --> 01:21:45.146
think that doesn't justify the move

01:21:45.167 --> 01:21:45.527
they've made.

01:21:47.007 --> 01:21:48.828
And I could see that argument where like,

01:21:49.349 --> 01:21:49.649
again,

01:21:49.769 --> 01:21:50.788
if you're saying like they shouldn't have

01:21:50.809 --> 01:21:51.849
handed over any data period,

01:21:51.869 --> 01:21:52.310
no matter what,

01:21:52.449 --> 01:21:53.970
I completely disagree because they will.

01:21:54.530 --> 01:21:55.951
If you go with a bulletproof provider who

01:21:55.990 --> 01:21:56.371
does that,

01:21:56.490 --> 01:21:58.431
eventually they will be shut down.

01:21:58.851 --> 01:22:00.212
And now even if you didn't do anything

01:22:00.252 --> 01:22:00.512
wrong,

01:22:00.613 --> 01:22:02.292
your data is sitting in an evidence locker

01:22:02.372 --> 01:22:03.394
alongside everybody else.

01:22:04.173 --> 01:22:05.314
We've seen that happen time and time

01:22:05.335 --> 01:22:05.595
again,

01:22:05.954 --> 01:22:07.234
but I could see the argument of like,

01:22:07.274 --> 01:22:07.774
well, they still,

01:22:07.875 --> 01:22:09.655
they should push back on every core order

01:22:09.676 --> 01:22:10.256
by default.

01:22:10.695 --> 01:22:11.856
And I can see that argument.

01:22:11.997 --> 01:22:13.476
I don't know if I necessarily agree with

01:22:13.497 --> 01:22:15.837
that for the record, but like,

01:22:15.917 --> 01:22:17.018
I definitely see where you're coming from.

01:22:17.057 --> 01:22:17.899
So that's what I mean when I say

01:22:17.939 --> 01:22:18.099
like,

01:22:18.578 --> 01:22:19.498
we kind of get to a point where

01:22:19.519 --> 01:22:20.619
it becomes personal preference.

01:22:20.659 --> 01:22:21.920
Like, should they have pushed back harder?

01:22:21.939 --> 01:22:23.079
Should they push back every time?

01:22:23.461 --> 01:22:24.621
Because there's also a part of me that

01:22:24.640 --> 01:22:25.860
says, well, if they cooperate,

01:22:25.921 --> 01:22:27.122
let's say they cooperate on,

01:22:27.992 --> 01:22:29.552
objectively awful cases,

01:22:29.632 --> 01:22:32.052
like we know this person was genuinely a

01:22:32.113 --> 01:22:32.993
terrorist in the wrong,

01:22:33.373 --> 01:22:35.134
we know this person is trafficking CSAM,

01:22:35.154 --> 01:22:36.354
we know this person is doing awful,

01:22:36.454 --> 01:22:37.095
awful things,

01:22:37.875 --> 01:22:39.416
then I feel like that kind of improves

01:22:39.456 --> 01:22:42.157
Proton's position when if they get a BS

01:22:42.197 --> 01:22:43.037
request that's like, oh,

01:22:43.056 --> 01:22:44.238
we just don't like that this journalist

01:22:44.257 --> 01:22:45.198
wrote mean things about us.

01:22:46.046 --> 01:22:47.188
Okay.

01:22:47.207 --> 01:22:48.307
Cry me a river, go home.

01:22:48.328 --> 01:22:49.408
We're not turning over the data.

01:22:50.029 --> 01:22:51.349
So I don't know.

01:22:51.408 --> 01:22:53.989
It's just, it's, it's personal preference,

01:22:54.010 --> 01:22:56.051
but yeah, it's that same person just said,

01:22:56.070 --> 01:22:57.072
there's a reason I've always avoided

01:22:57.152 --> 01:22:57.471
email.

01:22:57.652 --> 01:22:58.671
I'm kind of backing up what you were

01:22:58.692 --> 01:22:58.912
saying.

01:22:58.972 --> 01:23:02.833
It's, it's less, uh, but, uh, you know,

01:23:02.854 --> 01:23:02.953
we,

01:23:03.134 --> 01:23:04.414
we need to focus on things whenever

01:23:04.454 --> 01:23:04.814
possible.

01:23:04.895 --> 01:23:05.135
Again,

01:23:05.194 --> 01:23:07.456
I mentioned that my bank is never going

01:23:07.475 --> 01:23:08.436
to send me a signal message,

01:23:08.457 --> 01:23:09.417
at least not anytime soon.

01:23:09.457 --> 01:23:11.438
And I wish they would, but, um, yeah,

01:23:11.497 --> 01:23:13.418
trying to avoid email when you can trying

01:23:13.479 --> 01:23:13.798
not to.

01:23:15.572 --> 01:23:16.292
I don't know,

01:23:16.311 --> 01:23:18.672
just trying to move to those more private

01:23:18.853 --> 01:23:20.212
or more secure from the ground up

01:23:20.252 --> 01:23:21.974
alternatives where possible is kind of the

01:23:22.014 --> 01:23:22.613
only solution.

01:23:22.654 --> 01:23:28.314
But it has its limitations for sure.

01:23:29.475 --> 01:23:30.676
But I think that was all of our

01:23:30.716 --> 01:23:31.496
stories this week.

01:23:32.036 --> 01:23:33.417
I was poking around Proton's website.

01:23:33.436 --> 01:23:34.237
Let me close these tabs.

01:23:36.657 --> 01:23:38.917
Those were all the questions.

01:23:40.327 --> 01:23:42.807
So it's time to start taking viewer

01:23:42.828 --> 01:23:43.648
questions, actually.

01:23:44.068 --> 01:23:45.309
If you've been holding on to any questions

01:23:45.328 --> 01:23:46.429
about any of the stories we've talked

01:23:46.448 --> 01:23:46.708
about,

01:23:47.088 --> 01:23:49.430
go ahead and start leaving them in either

01:23:49.470 --> 01:23:51.011
the forum thread or the comments section

01:23:51.051 --> 01:23:51.751
of the livestream.

01:23:52.371 --> 01:23:54.671
And we're actually going to go ahead and

01:23:54.771 --> 01:23:56.733
start with the forum thread,

01:23:56.872 --> 01:23:57.092
which

01:23:57.912 --> 01:24:00.614
Last I checked only got one question.

01:24:01.315 --> 01:24:02.197
Yes, that is correct.

01:24:02.277 --> 01:24:05.139
So we have a question from anonymous five,

01:24:05.179 --> 01:24:05.679
seven, one.

01:24:06.119 --> 01:24:06.560
First of all,

01:24:06.600 --> 01:24:07.921
big thanks for the work that we do.

01:24:08.261 --> 01:24:08.702
Thank you.

01:24:09.341 --> 01:24:10.122
You said in the past,

01:24:10.182 --> 01:24:11.524
I used a single Gmail address,

01:24:11.583 --> 01:24:13.164
which was not your main email address for

01:24:13.204 --> 01:24:14.926
all sorts of random account signups for

01:24:14.966 --> 01:24:16.207
things like discord, Amazon.

01:24:16.688 --> 01:24:18.770
Netflix, news websites, one-off trials,

01:24:18.789 --> 01:24:19.310
et cetera.

01:24:19.909 --> 01:24:20.130
You said,

01:24:20.149 --> 01:24:21.291
I've used this email address for many,

01:24:21.310 --> 01:24:21.752
many years.

01:24:21.792 --> 01:24:22.311
Needless to say,

01:24:22.332 --> 01:24:23.112
it's a bit of a cluster.

01:24:23.592 --> 01:24:24.974
Younger me thought that I was being smart,

01:24:25.014 --> 01:24:26.494
not having these accounts fill up my main

01:24:26.515 --> 01:24:27.475
email address with spam.

01:24:28.576 --> 01:24:30.157
Cut forward to today and being more

01:24:30.858 --> 01:24:32.738
privacy and security aware, you got,

01:24:33.319 --> 01:24:33.699
ironically,

01:24:33.720 --> 01:24:35.060
a Proton subscription with a custom

01:24:35.079 --> 01:24:35.461
domain.

01:24:35.881 --> 01:24:37.362
You've been updating all your old accounts

01:24:37.381 --> 01:24:39.582
to either Proton or simple login aliases

01:24:39.764 --> 01:24:41.324
and aliases on your custom domain.

01:24:41.885 --> 01:24:42.826
Got me thinking, however,

01:24:42.905 --> 01:24:44.667
is this merely updating my email with a

01:24:44.747 --> 01:24:46.188
unique alias a waste of time?

01:24:46.967 --> 01:24:48.689
Should I rather be creating completely new

01:24:48.708 --> 01:24:49.929
accounts for all these websites?

01:24:50.328 --> 01:24:51.748
The thinking is that they likely keep

01:24:51.788 --> 01:24:53.250
version history of my email address so I

01:24:53.270 --> 01:24:55.069
could still be linked or profiled based on

01:24:55.130 --> 01:24:56.211
previous email addresses.

01:24:56.591 --> 01:24:58.171
A data breach could also expose the email

01:24:58.211 --> 01:24:58.530
history,

01:24:58.570 --> 01:25:00.032
so it doesn't help in that respect either.

01:25:00.591 --> 01:25:02.131
Updating my email with a unique alias on

01:25:02.152 --> 01:25:03.172
all these websites is one thing,

01:25:03.193 --> 01:25:04.712
but creating new accounts and closing the

01:25:04.813 --> 01:25:07.033
old ones gives me goosebumps just thinking

01:25:07.054 --> 01:25:07.394
about it.

01:25:09.533 --> 01:25:11.135
I have some complicated thoughts on this

01:25:11.274 --> 01:25:11.375
one.

01:25:14.399 --> 01:25:14.520
Well,

01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:16.280
complicated in the sense that I feel like

01:25:16.301 --> 01:25:17.100
it's very nuanced.

01:25:17.661 --> 01:25:19.161
You know, it's always nuanced, right?

01:25:19.702 --> 01:25:21.721
So, I don't know.

01:25:21.742 --> 01:25:22.622
Do you want to go first, Jonah?

01:25:23.323 --> 01:25:24.703
I mean, yeah,

01:25:24.802 --> 01:25:26.122
I could give a few thoughts on this.

01:25:26.543 --> 01:25:28.384
We might be thinking about the same thing

01:25:28.423 --> 01:25:28.623
here,

01:25:28.724 --> 01:25:32.185
but I do think certainly it's a good

01:25:32.225 --> 01:25:35.605
thing to switch to Proton,

01:25:35.706 --> 01:25:38.606
start using simple login aliases for all

01:25:38.627 --> 01:25:39.907
your accounts because it is super

01:25:39.926 --> 01:25:41.608
important to use Proton

01:25:42.247 --> 01:25:44.029
a different email for every site that you

01:25:44.048 --> 01:25:45.970
use for the same reason,

01:25:46.010 --> 01:25:47.230
pretty much that you'd use a different

01:25:47.251 --> 01:25:48.551
password for every site that you use,

01:25:48.570 --> 01:25:50.112
which is that, you know,

01:25:50.192 --> 01:25:52.432
especially you don't you don't even

01:25:52.472 --> 01:25:55.194
necessarily have to be concerned about the

01:25:55.234 --> 01:25:56.595
website itself tracking you,

01:25:56.614 --> 01:25:58.695
although that is definitely a concern with

01:25:58.735 --> 01:25:59.337
some websites.

01:25:59.457 --> 01:26:01.597
But as we talked about

01:26:03.121 --> 01:26:04.161
previously in the show,

01:26:04.701 --> 01:26:06.282
data breaches are super common.

01:26:06.542 --> 01:26:09.622
And these sites will,

01:26:10.042 --> 01:26:12.523
like when these data breaches are out,

01:26:12.783 --> 01:26:14.483
if your email is shared between data

01:26:14.502 --> 01:26:14.842
breaches,

01:26:14.863 --> 01:26:18.944
that does create a pattern that can be

01:26:19.003 --> 01:26:20.844
used to track you across these sites and

01:26:21.083 --> 01:26:22.564
create a profile of like the kind of

01:26:22.583 --> 01:26:23.283
sites that you're using.

01:26:23.625 --> 01:26:25.185
And these data breaches are super common.

01:26:25.225 --> 01:26:26.984
So you don't want to have any information

01:26:27.024 --> 01:26:29.666
between data breaches that can potentially

01:26:29.706 --> 01:26:30.786
be linked together.

01:26:30.826 --> 01:26:31.945
That is a privacy concern.

01:26:32.365 --> 01:26:32.407
Um,

01:26:35.176 --> 01:26:38.797
As far as updating your email with

01:26:38.818 --> 01:26:41.918
accounts you already use or deleting

01:26:41.958 --> 01:26:43.039
accounts and starting over,

01:26:43.239 --> 01:26:44.659
that is something that is going to really

01:26:44.699 --> 01:26:48.202
depend on what you think is worth it.

01:26:48.582 --> 01:26:50.702
I think the person who has this question

01:26:50.742 --> 01:26:54.224
really laid out a lot of the reasons

01:26:54.264 --> 01:26:55.463
why you might want to do that and

01:26:55.524 --> 01:26:58.104
also the reasons that you wouldn't want to

01:26:58.125 --> 01:26:58.385
do that,

01:26:58.465 --> 01:27:01.865
especially like just the effort involved

01:27:01.905 --> 01:27:03.287
in having to recreate all of these

01:27:03.306 --> 01:27:03.747
accounts.

01:27:04.546 --> 01:27:08.711
And it really depends on how you feel

01:27:08.770 --> 01:27:09.490
about that site.

01:27:10.231 --> 01:27:13.354
I don't think for a lot of websites

01:27:13.375 --> 01:27:14.636
that you would sign up with,

01:27:15.076 --> 01:27:16.917
it's probably fairly unlikely that they

01:27:17.057 --> 01:27:19.500
are tracking like email history,

01:27:19.539 --> 01:27:20.180
for example.

01:27:20.500 --> 01:27:22.002
And if we're talking about like a big

01:27:22.061 --> 01:27:24.384
tech company or a data company like Amazon

01:27:24.404 --> 01:27:24.944
or Facebook,

01:27:25.043 --> 01:27:26.704
I would think that that is more more

01:27:26.746 --> 01:27:27.126
likely.

01:27:27.166 --> 01:27:28.587
But if you're talking about like a general

01:27:29.127 --> 01:27:31.208
e-commerce shop or a random form or

01:27:31.248 --> 01:27:31.588
whatever,

01:27:32.529 --> 01:27:34.851
um it's probably unlikely that they're

01:27:34.912 --> 01:27:36.972
storing that historical data forever and

01:27:37.012 --> 01:27:39.453
so changing that might be fine but of

01:27:39.493 --> 01:27:42.796
course that is um a case where you

01:27:42.817 --> 01:27:45.917
would have to trust that is happening and

01:27:46.019 --> 01:27:50.041
and you'll never know for sure so i

01:27:50.140 --> 01:27:52.402
i think the way i would sum this

01:27:52.603 --> 01:27:54.604
up um is just like at the end

01:27:54.623 --> 01:27:56.645
of the day you have to decide whether

01:27:56.765 --> 01:27:57.405
the uh

01:27:58.565 --> 01:28:00.226
Whether recreating all of these accounts

01:28:00.367 --> 01:28:02.668
is worth it for you,

01:28:02.708 --> 01:28:04.810
but that's going to be an individual and

01:28:04.850 --> 01:28:06.851
maybe even a site-by-site basis,

01:28:08.653 --> 01:28:10.213
which I couldn't really tell you.

01:28:10.234 --> 01:28:11.954
I don't know if you have more actionable

01:28:12.055 --> 01:28:13.256
advice than that, Nader,

01:28:13.275 --> 01:28:14.556
if that's kind of what you're thinking,

01:28:14.617 --> 01:28:16.398
but definitely share your thoughts.

01:28:17.838 --> 01:28:19.199
Yeah, very similar.

01:28:19.380 --> 01:28:23.722
I will say this isn't necessarily proof,

01:28:24.043 --> 01:28:24.363
but...

01:28:25.618 --> 01:28:27.158
In all the years that my brain has

01:28:27.198 --> 01:28:28.779
become an encyclopedia for companies that

01:28:28.798 --> 01:28:29.619
have had data breaches,

01:28:30.859 --> 01:28:34.582
I've only ever seen one that had a

01:28:34.622 --> 01:28:37.882
breach that exposed the email you signed

01:28:37.943 --> 01:28:38.363
up with.

01:28:39.024 --> 01:28:40.144
I can't remember who it was,

01:28:40.904 --> 01:28:42.425
but I remember it does stick out in

01:28:42.444 --> 01:28:43.725
my mind because I remember thinking like,

01:28:43.826 --> 01:28:44.626
oh, that's weird.

01:28:44.645 --> 01:28:45.786
We've never seen that before.

01:28:48.106 --> 01:28:48.988
So, I mean, I...

01:28:50.876 --> 01:28:52.877
I find it kind of hard to believe

01:28:53.037 --> 01:28:55.078
that if this was a common practice of

01:28:55.118 --> 01:28:57.118
companies keeping a history of your email

01:28:57.139 --> 01:28:57.599
addresses,

01:28:58.279 --> 01:29:03.780
that they would keep – I find it

01:29:03.801 --> 01:29:04.942
hard to believe that if companies were

01:29:04.981 --> 01:29:05.561
doing that,

01:29:06.322 --> 01:29:07.802
that we wouldn't have seen more of those

01:29:07.842 --> 01:29:09.623
breaches by now with how common these

01:29:09.663 --> 01:29:10.323
breaches are.

01:29:11.215 --> 01:29:13.077
Um, it's certainly possible, obviously,

01:29:13.737 --> 01:29:14.997
but I, I don't know.

01:29:15.037 --> 01:29:15.358
That's the,

01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:16.880
I've only ever seen one that did.

01:29:16.979 --> 01:29:17.560
I do agree.

01:29:17.699 --> 01:29:19.481
I would just add onto that really quick

01:29:19.561 --> 01:29:21.823
that like, in my experience,

01:29:21.863 --> 01:29:22.804
hosting software,

01:29:22.844 --> 01:29:24.345
like thinking about open source software,

01:29:24.426 --> 01:29:25.726
we're talking about the major platforms

01:29:25.766 --> 01:29:28.048
like WordPress or form software,

01:29:28.168 --> 01:29:29.409
all the stuff that like all these tiny

01:29:29.449 --> 01:29:30.109
sites would be using.

01:29:30.470 --> 01:29:32.192
I've also never seen, um,

01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:35.542
really any situations where like that is

01:29:35.601 --> 01:29:36.681
commonplace in software.

01:29:36.722 --> 01:29:39.043
So I would imagine you'd only really see

01:29:39.064 --> 01:29:41.726
that from like a big custom made website,

01:29:41.766 --> 01:29:43.108
maybe from a big tech company,

01:29:43.167 --> 01:29:44.969
but it seems pretty unlikely.

01:29:45.029 --> 01:29:46.610
I would agree just from the software side

01:29:46.631 --> 01:29:47.350
of things as well.

01:29:47.652 --> 01:29:50.134
I've never really seen features like that

01:29:50.194 --> 01:29:50.613
personally.

01:29:52.247 --> 01:29:54.368
And also that story that I referenced,

01:29:54.448 --> 01:29:56.269
it was literally only the sign-up email.

01:29:56.328 --> 01:29:58.550
So if you signed up with Gmail and

01:29:58.569 --> 01:29:59.890
then you changed your email like,

01:30:00.990 --> 01:30:03.190
it would only have that Gmail and then

01:30:03.211 --> 01:30:04.311
your current email.

01:30:04.551 --> 01:30:04.992
It was really weird.

01:30:05.011 --> 01:30:06.171
I wish I could remember who that was.

01:30:07.372 --> 01:30:10.234
But anyways, my only concern with this,

01:30:10.354 --> 01:30:12.375
if you want to make all new accounts,

01:30:12.534 --> 01:30:13.994
I certainly don't think that's a bad idea.

01:30:14.836 --> 01:30:15.975
I know there's a lot of people in

01:30:15.996 --> 01:30:17.537
the privacy community that actually like

01:30:18.435 --> 01:30:20.478
just periodically nuke their accounts and

01:30:20.518 --> 01:30:22.079
start over all the time.

01:30:22.119 --> 01:30:23.100
I think we have a regular in our

01:30:23.121 --> 01:30:24.743
forum who did that recently, actually.

01:30:26.784 --> 01:30:30.948
But I think my concern would be,

01:30:31.048 --> 01:30:31.989
especially with some of the more

01:30:32.130 --> 01:30:33.792
mainstream platforms you mentioned,

01:30:33.952 --> 01:30:35.434
like Discord and Amazon,

01:30:36.234 --> 01:30:38.476
I notice it's becoming increasingly hard

01:30:39.554 --> 01:30:40.735
to make new accounts,

01:30:40.815 --> 01:30:41.856
especially privately.

01:30:41.917 --> 01:30:43.139
Like a lot of them will ding you

01:30:43.179 --> 01:30:44.921
for using VPNs.

01:30:46.143 --> 01:30:47.064
A lot of them will ding you if

01:30:47.083 --> 01:30:49.407
you're on like Linux or an uncommon

01:30:49.447 --> 01:30:50.068
browser.

01:30:51.789 --> 01:30:53.231
So you run, and a lot of,

01:30:53.292 --> 01:30:54.552
some of them even like Reddit,

01:30:55.605 --> 01:30:56.105
Oh my God.

01:30:56.367 --> 01:30:57.447
I get more and more pissed at Reddit

01:30:57.466 --> 01:30:58.969
with every passing day because Reddit now

01:30:58.988 --> 01:31:00.569
has this little user and it's totally

01:31:00.590 --> 01:31:00.970
invisible.

01:31:00.989 --> 01:31:02.490
There's subreddits you can go find and

01:31:02.530 --> 01:31:02.912
check it.

01:31:03.351 --> 01:31:04.872
It's called like CQS or something.

01:31:05.432 --> 01:31:06.854
It's basically like a user score.

01:31:06.975 --> 01:31:08.175
And if you're not active enough,

01:31:08.194 --> 01:31:09.355
if you're not messaging enough,

01:31:09.376 --> 01:31:11.478
if you're not using the platform enough,

01:31:11.497 --> 01:31:13.939
your score lowers and they think you're a

01:31:14.000 --> 01:31:16.140
scammer or a spammer bot, whatever,

01:31:16.601 --> 01:31:17.783
which I guess kind of makes sense because

01:31:17.802 --> 01:31:18.342
that is the thing.

01:31:18.722 --> 01:31:20.404
If you're like someone who spends too much

01:31:20.444 --> 01:31:20.965
time on Reddit,

01:31:20.984 --> 01:31:21.786
which I have in the past,

01:31:21.805 --> 01:31:22.326
you're

01:31:22.466 --> 01:31:23.846
that is a thing where like people will

01:31:23.868 --> 01:31:26.130
literally make accounts and then sit on

01:31:26.170 --> 01:31:27.770
them dormant for like six months.

01:31:27.850 --> 01:31:29.073
And then they'll sell the account to

01:31:29.092 --> 01:31:30.234
somebody who will start spamming.

01:31:31.274 --> 01:31:31.755
Because, you know,

01:31:31.795 --> 01:31:33.096
now they're not like a brand new account

01:31:33.117 --> 01:31:34.438
and they don't look suspicious or,

01:31:34.957 --> 01:31:35.179
you know,

01:31:35.219 --> 01:31:36.460
they'll go out and they'll like get a

01:31:36.479 --> 01:31:37.961
whole bunch of karma and then they'll sell

01:31:37.980 --> 01:31:39.082
the account to someone else.

01:31:39.483 --> 01:31:40.444
So I kind of get why they do

01:31:40.463 --> 01:31:40.684
that.

01:31:40.823 --> 01:31:41.225
Or, you know,

01:31:41.265 --> 01:31:42.706
people lurking that just like only send

01:31:42.746 --> 01:31:44.887
DMS or whatever, but it's, it's,

01:31:45.708 --> 01:31:46.409
It makes it frustrating.

01:31:46.670 --> 01:31:47.591
I shared this story a couple of weeks

01:31:47.631 --> 01:31:47.751
ago.

01:31:47.850 --> 01:31:48.471
I logged into,

01:31:48.631 --> 01:31:50.154
I have an account where I've identified

01:31:50.194 --> 01:31:51.034
myself as the new oil.

01:31:51.074 --> 01:31:52.136
I used to be really active in like

01:31:52.256 --> 01:31:53.016
r slash privacy.

01:31:53.537 --> 01:31:54.578
And I logged in for something.

01:31:54.618 --> 01:31:55.439
I don't even remember what,

01:31:55.458 --> 01:31:56.439
but I logged in for something.

01:31:57.060 --> 01:31:59.143
And on my homepage was r slash privacy.

01:31:59.222 --> 01:32:00.104
And it was a question that I was

01:32:00.123 --> 01:32:00.623
like, oh,

01:32:01.484 --> 01:32:02.506
I can leave an answer to that real

01:32:02.525 --> 01:32:02.765
quick.

01:32:02.805 --> 01:32:04.207
Like I'm qualified to answer this.

01:32:04.367 --> 01:32:05.547
This person seems like they're asking a

01:32:05.568 --> 01:32:06.127
good question.

01:32:06.507 --> 01:32:07.748
So I went in and I typed out

01:32:07.769 --> 01:32:08.208
my answer.

01:32:08.288 --> 01:32:09.250
And when I hit post, it was like,

01:32:09.649 --> 01:32:10.610
oh, your score is too low.

01:32:10.650 --> 01:32:11.511
You can't post in here.

01:32:11.551 --> 01:32:12.931
And I'm just like, all right, whatever.

01:32:12.971 --> 01:32:14.672
Don't care because I haven't posted in

01:32:14.712 --> 01:32:15.113
like a year.

01:32:15.212 --> 01:32:17.675
So yeah, it's just, it's that would,

01:32:17.975 --> 01:32:18.855
I guess where I'm going with that is

01:32:18.876 --> 01:32:20.055
that would be my main concern is if

01:32:20.076 --> 01:32:20.676
it's something like,

01:32:21.434 --> 01:32:21.673
you know,

01:32:21.833 --> 01:32:23.475
dominoes and you're ordering pizza, right?

01:32:23.975 --> 01:32:24.534
They don't care.

01:32:24.755 --> 01:32:25.855
As long as the card goes through,

01:32:25.975 --> 01:32:27.216
make a new account, whatever,

01:32:27.796 --> 01:32:28.356
if you want to.

01:32:28.997 --> 01:32:30.117
But if it's something like, again,

01:32:30.136 --> 01:32:31.057
like Reddit, Discord,

01:32:31.097 --> 01:32:32.497
they're probably going to put up some

01:32:32.537 --> 01:32:33.698
blocks and like make it,

01:32:34.632 --> 01:32:35.774
probably more of a pain in the ass

01:32:35.793 --> 01:32:37.314
than it's worth in my opinion and

01:32:37.335 --> 01:32:39.396
especially some of them like gmail discord

01:32:40.078 --> 01:32:41.979
they might require a phone number and

01:32:42.059 --> 01:32:43.399
they're kind of strict about not allowing

01:32:43.440 --> 01:32:45.181
voice over ip so at the end of

01:32:45.202 --> 01:32:46.703
the day it's probably going to be more

01:32:46.762 --> 01:32:48.725
work than it's worth in my opinion but

01:32:49.365 --> 01:32:51.386
it does depend on your threat model um

01:32:52.547 --> 01:32:53.929
yeah i i guess that it really depends

01:32:53.969 --> 01:32:54.970
on your threat model and how much work

01:32:54.989 --> 01:32:56.752
you're willing to put in but i i

01:32:56.771 --> 01:32:58.092
don't think you have to i think if

01:32:58.113 --> 01:32:59.434
you want to it's not a bad idea

01:32:59.474 --> 01:33:00.654
but in some cases you might get

01:33:00.675 --> 01:33:01.435
diminishing returns

01:33:02.658 --> 01:33:06.622
The other thing I would say is I

01:33:06.682 --> 01:33:08.384
certainly don't think you have to do this

01:33:08.463 --> 01:33:09.985
all right away unless you have a

01:33:10.086 --> 01:33:11.948
particularly good reason to.

01:33:12.307 --> 01:33:14.350
And kind of similarly to how we handle

01:33:15.190 --> 01:33:19.154
opting out of data broker databases in the

01:33:19.255 --> 01:33:19.555
US.

01:33:19.595 --> 01:33:21.076
We typically recommend,

01:33:21.095 --> 01:33:23.337
unless you have an immediate concern right

01:33:23.377 --> 01:33:27.402
away of some threat against you,

01:33:28.403 --> 01:33:29.444
Just taking your time with it.

01:33:29.484 --> 01:33:31.324
I think you don't want to you definitely

01:33:31.345 --> 01:33:34.447
don't want to burn out like spending many

01:33:34.487 --> 01:33:36.528
hours straight just constantly recreating

01:33:36.587 --> 01:33:37.387
all these accounts.

01:33:37.908 --> 01:33:38.189
Right?

01:33:38.868 --> 01:33:40.090
This is something you could do over the

01:33:40.109 --> 01:33:41.270
course of I mean,

01:33:41.331 --> 01:33:43.391
even even a few months if you if

01:33:43.412 --> 01:33:43.851
you want,

01:33:44.693 --> 01:33:45.092
just do

01:33:47.006 --> 01:33:48.007
Just do a few accounts a day.

01:33:48.127 --> 01:33:50.912
I find if you already use a password

01:33:50.931 --> 01:33:51.533
manager,

01:33:52.153 --> 01:33:55.537
that is a really helpful way to find

01:33:55.618 --> 01:33:56.640
all of your accounts.

01:33:56.659 --> 01:33:59.222
So you can go through basically a list

01:33:59.363 --> 01:34:01.667
and update the email on them at whatever

01:34:01.707 --> 01:34:02.287
pace you want.

01:34:02.927 --> 01:34:05.210
If you aren't using a password manager

01:34:05.229 --> 01:34:05.409
yet,

01:34:05.850 --> 01:34:08.612
definitely start using one because that's

01:34:08.631 --> 01:34:10.233
super helpful for just, I mean,

01:34:10.273 --> 01:34:12.975
not only like all of the typical benefits

01:34:13.015 --> 01:34:14.395
of a password manager in terms of

01:34:14.456 --> 01:34:14.855
security,

01:34:14.895 --> 01:34:16.497
but also just having a list of like

01:34:16.537 --> 01:34:17.677
all the places you have an account in

01:34:17.717 --> 01:34:18.278
the first place.

01:34:18.639 --> 01:34:20.720
That comes in handy very often.

01:34:20.899 --> 01:34:22.881
And it's a huge benefit of using a

01:34:22.921 --> 01:34:24.042
password manager like that.

01:34:25.762 --> 01:34:27.444
So yeah, just going through things,

01:34:28.364 --> 01:34:31.487
taking your time is probably fine.

01:34:33.708 --> 01:34:35.890
but yeah really really depends on your

01:34:35.930 --> 01:34:39.854
situation you mean you don't have to be

01:34:39.913 --> 01:34:42.617
me the psychopath who changed all my

01:34:42.676 --> 01:34:46.340
passwords in one weekend in one sitting I

01:34:46.359 --> 01:34:48.822
don't think you have to be I would

01:34:48.942 --> 01:34:52.345
say if that gets you going then good

01:34:52.385 --> 01:34:55.768
for you yeah I wouldn't recommend it but

01:34:55.828 --> 01:34:58.671
I definitely did that it was not wise

01:35:01.702 --> 01:35:03.422
All right, so going through the chat here,

01:35:03.904 --> 01:35:05.125
just to address a few of the chats.

01:35:05.164 --> 01:35:06.525
Back with the headline stories,

01:35:06.926 --> 01:35:07.367
somebody asked,

01:35:07.386 --> 01:35:09.128
will Graphene OS have two flavors now,

01:35:09.229 --> 01:35:10.689
or will there remain one flavor?

01:35:11.230 --> 01:35:11.770
As far as we know,

01:35:11.791 --> 01:35:12.972
there's still just going to be one version

01:35:12.993 --> 01:35:13.533
of Graphene.

01:35:14.073 --> 01:35:15.734
There's not going to be multiple versions

01:35:15.774 --> 01:35:16.355
per device.

01:35:17.029 --> 01:35:17.429
Yeah,

01:35:17.448 --> 01:35:19.251
and I believe it's been confirmed that

01:35:19.570 --> 01:35:22.012
you'll be able to install Graphene OS from

01:35:22.052 --> 01:35:24.015
their website like usual on these devices,

01:35:24.034 --> 01:35:26.055
which I would expect because Graphene OS

01:35:26.095 --> 01:35:27.818
places such an emphasis on...

01:35:29.698 --> 01:35:31.740
You have to trust every single aspect of

01:35:31.841 --> 01:35:34.662
the installation process to know that your

01:35:34.703 --> 01:35:35.404
phone is secure.

01:35:35.484 --> 01:35:37.725
And so doing it from a trustworthy source

01:35:37.746 --> 01:35:39.127
that you can verify from the very

01:35:39.167 --> 01:35:41.149
beginning is important for your security.

01:35:41.429 --> 01:35:43.570
And I can't imagine Graphene OS would give

01:35:43.591 --> 01:35:44.051
that up.

01:35:45.131 --> 01:35:46.332
They've also said that...

01:35:47.753 --> 01:35:51.015
I believe GrapheneOS has confirmed in one

01:35:51.036 --> 01:35:51.917
of their social media posts.

01:35:51.976 --> 01:35:53.257
It's so hard to find some of this

01:35:53.297 --> 01:35:56.920
information about GrapheneOS because it's

01:35:56.979 --> 01:35:59.561
in a lot of sporadic social media posts

01:35:59.601 --> 01:36:00.342
rather than one place.

01:36:00.382 --> 01:36:01.804
So I don't have the post pulled up,

01:36:01.823 --> 01:36:05.685
but I believe I've seen that they're not

01:36:05.706 --> 01:36:07.667
going to be including any Motorola

01:36:08.188 --> 01:36:10.229
loadware in GrapheneOS or anything like

01:36:10.250 --> 01:36:10.470
that.

01:36:11.810 --> 01:36:13.693
I think it is still an open question

01:36:14.252 --> 01:36:16.775
as to whether Motorola will pre-install it

01:36:16.855 --> 01:36:17.936
as we discussed earlier.

01:36:18.957 --> 01:36:20.779
And if that will be called Graphene OS

01:36:21.079 --> 01:36:24.203
or if like Motorola will be pre-installing

01:36:24.302 --> 01:36:26.845
maybe a fork of Graphene OS that does

01:36:26.886 --> 01:36:29.148
have their security tools and maybe they

01:36:29.188 --> 01:36:29.408
won't.

01:36:30.088 --> 01:36:31.170
call it Graphene OS.

01:36:31.189 --> 01:36:33.131
Maybe they'll do it for different branding

01:36:33.171 --> 01:36:33.451
reasons.

01:36:33.490 --> 01:36:35.632
So it's not considered to be a second

01:36:35.672 --> 01:36:36.713
flavor of Graphene OS,

01:36:36.753 --> 01:36:39.114
but maybe their stock operating system

01:36:39.515 --> 01:36:41.377
will incorporate a lot of Graphene OS

01:36:41.417 --> 01:36:43.118
features and you could maybe consider it

01:36:44.559 --> 01:36:46.520
similar to Graphene OS in that regard.

01:36:46.881 --> 01:36:48.020
I don't know if that will happen or

01:36:48.060 --> 01:36:48.280
not.

01:36:48.801 --> 01:36:52.323
It's very unclear what the final product

01:36:52.363 --> 01:36:52.944
will look like.

01:36:53.744 --> 01:36:54.626
But I think that

01:36:56.722 --> 01:36:58.382
we're pretty certain that there will

01:36:58.444 --> 01:37:01.324
always be just the standard Graphene OS

01:37:01.364 --> 01:37:02.865
that we're all familiar with right now

01:37:03.846 --> 01:37:05.347
available across the board with this

01:37:05.387 --> 01:37:07.448
device and with Pixels as long as Google

01:37:07.488 --> 01:37:10.631
decides to support this and that the

01:37:10.650 --> 01:37:12.992
experience shouldn't change.

01:37:13.011 --> 01:37:15.172
So you'll always have just the standard

01:37:15.193 --> 01:37:19.095
Graphene OS option no matter what Motorola

01:37:19.136 --> 01:37:20.957
decides to do with the stock stuff on

01:37:20.997 --> 01:37:21.296
their end.

01:37:23.680 --> 01:37:24.501
You know, that just occurred to me,

01:37:24.541 --> 01:37:26.645
this is totally off the cuff.

01:37:26.685 --> 01:37:27.905
So maybe I'm being stupid here.

01:37:28.266 --> 01:37:29.469
I wonder if this will in a way

01:37:29.509 --> 01:37:32.512
pressure Google to, to maybe,

01:37:33.675 --> 01:37:35.077
maybe not full on reverse course,

01:37:35.117 --> 01:37:36.418
but maybe be a little kinder.

01:37:37.414 --> 01:37:39.956
to custom operating systems.

01:37:41.117 --> 01:37:43.398
I can't imagine it's a huge, huge...

01:37:43.497 --> 01:37:44.078
I doubt like,

01:37:44.099 --> 01:37:45.720
fifty percent of people that buy Pixels do

01:37:45.779 --> 01:37:47.240
it to put graphene on their phone or

01:37:47.261 --> 01:37:47.581
something,

01:37:47.661 --> 01:37:49.822
but I have to imagine there is a

01:37:49.981 --> 01:37:52.042
not insignificant portion of people,

01:37:52.724 --> 01:37:54.305
and I wonder if this opening of

01:37:54.345 --> 01:37:54.845
competition...

01:37:54.864 --> 01:37:57.006
Because graphene is really the only one

01:37:57.025 --> 01:37:58.506
that's pixel-only, right?

01:37:58.546 --> 01:38:00.127
Kallax people can go to the Fairphone,

01:38:00.148 --> 01:38:01.389
there's a couple of Motorolas,

01:38:02.109 --> 01:38:04.189
lineage people can choose every device

01:38:04.250 --> 01:38:07.070
ever made practically like but so I feel

01:38:07.091 --> 01:38:10.052
like now that graphene has competent or

01:38:10.092 --> 01:38:11.632
like you know what I mean like now

01:38:11.653 --> 01:38:12.993
that there's other options I wonder if

01:38:13.014 --> 01:38:14.614
that'll kind of make Google like hesitate

01:38:14.635 --> 01:38:17.036
a little bit like oh maybe we should

01:38:17.076 --> 01:38:19.016
not be quite so aggressive because we

01:38:19.056 --> 01:38:20.436
might actually drive some people away I

01:38:20.457 --> 01:38:21.618
don't know maybe maybe it's just me

01:38:21.658 --> 01:38:22.278
dreaming but

01:38:22.806 --> 01:38:25.048
true and kind of relatedly i brought this

01:38:25.149 --> 01:38:27.131
up in some of the graphene os discussions

01:38:27.171 --> 01:38:28.712
on our forum this week but i almost

01:38:28.752 --> 01:38:30.956
wonder if this partnership with motorola

01:38:31.315 --> 01:38:34.699
can maybe convince google to change their

01:38:34.739 --> 01:38:36.480
policies around like google play

01:38:36.581 --> 01:38:38.302
certification especially when it comes to

01:38:38.323 --> 01:38:40.746
banking apps um i know people replied to

01:38:40.765 --> 01:38:43.389
me saying like you know under under the

01:38:43.429 --> 01:38:43.708
current

01:38:43.788 --> 01:38:44.349
policies,

01:38:44.409 --> 01:38:45.690
they'll never accept something like

01:38:45.810 --> 01:38:47.631
graphene OS for a variety of reasons.

01:38:47.692 --> 01:38:49.273
And that's certainly true.

01:38:49.313 --> 01:38:50.875
But Google's policies,

01:38:50.914 --> 01:38:52.275
especially when it comes to like Google

01:38:52.315 --> 01:38:53.036
Play certification,

01:38:53.055 --> 01:38:56.099
they're not like an inherent law of the

01:38:56.219 --> 01:38:57.699
universe that's written in stone, right?

01:38:57.720 --> 01:38:58.780
It's it's Google's.

01:38:59.421 --> 01:39:01.222
It's up to Google's whims to decide what

01:39:01.243 --> 01:39:02.684
they allow for Google Play or not.

01:39:02.743 --> 01:39:03.184
And maybe

01:39:04.164 --> 01:39:06.887
Maybe Motorola can be like and whisper in

01:39:06.927 --> 01:39:09.310
Google's ear through some back channels

01:39:09.350 --> 01:39:11.131
and get some changes made to the Google

01:39:11.152 --> 01:39:14.615
Play policies and somehow get an exception

01:39:14.695 --> 01:39:16.317
or a rule change or something for Graphene

01:39:16.337 --> 01:39:20.801
OS that would get that approved.

01:39:20.962 --> 01:39:21.962
I don't know if that'll happen.

01:39:22.182 --> 01:39:23.703
It's I would agree.

01:39:23.724 --> 01:39:25.386
It's probably extremely unlikely,

01:39:25.426 --> 01:39:26.907
but it's probably the closest we've come

01:39:26.926 --> 01:39:27.127
to it.

01:39:27.226 --> 01:39:28.307
And if that's possible,

01:39:28.328 --> 01:39:29.649
that would be that would be huge for

01:39:29.668 --> 01:39:30.189
graph, you know,

01:39:30.210 --> 01:39:32.211
because I know a huge issue that people

01:39:32.251 --> 01:39:35.213
have is especially banking apps,

01:39:35.253 --> 01:39:36.414
but other apps that

01:39:37.135 --> 01:39:40.136
unnecessarily use google plays like safety

01:39:40.176 --> 01:39:43.099
net api and other services that don't work

01:39:43.219 --> 01:39:46.039
on uncertified products like graphene os

01:39:46.461 --> 01:39:48.702
um so that could be that could be

01:39:48.721 --> 01:39:51.703
a game changer if google decides to allow

01:39:51.743 --> 01:39:54.826
like sandbox google play into that program

01:39:54.845 --> 01:39:56.947
seems unlikely but you know you never know

01:39:57.207 --> 01:40:00.509
i can always hope yeah for sure

01:40:02.823 --> 01:40:04.005
We had another question early on.

01:40:04.065 --> 01:40:05.127
Question for question time.

01:40:05.167 --> 01:40:06.368
How do I choose a laptop?

01:40:06.467 --> 01:40:07.229
Any suggestions?

01:40:07.269 --> 01:40:08.951
Definitely going to be a Linux distro.

01:40:10.172 --> 01:40:12.154
We do have a page about how to

01:40:12.194 --> 01:40:13.636
pick your laptop hardware, don't we?

01:40:18.309 --> 01:40:19.590
I can't remember off the top of my

01:40:19.630 --> 01:40:19.869
head.

01:40:19.890 --> 01:40:22.310
I'm going to check familiar,

01:40:22.350 --> 01:40:23.791
but I feel like we could have had

01:40:24.490 --> 01:40:25.431
an article about it.

01:40:26.091 --> 01:40:27.912
I would say, I don't know,

01:40:28.233 --> 01:40:30.033
it really depends on what you're looking

01:40:30.073 --> 01:40:30.212
for.

01:40:30.233 --> 01:40:31.634
Because there's so much there's such a

01:40:31.673 --> 01:40:32.934
wide variety of hardware out there.

01:40:32.953 --> 01:40:34.033
And thankfully, you know,

01:40:34.094 --> 01:40:37.055
Linux will run on like all of that.

01:40:38.355 --> 01:40:40.115
So you have a lot of options.

01:40:40.336 --> 01:40:42.277
For me, it'd be like very challenging.

01:40:44.547 --> 01:40:46.689
I think to use any of the Intel

01:40:46.729 --> 01:40:47.628
and AMD stuff lately,

01:40:47.788 --> 01:40:50.729
just because like power efficiency has

01:40:50.770 --> 01:40:52.050
turned out to be a really big,

01:40:52.090 --> 01:40:52.930
big thing for me.

01:40:53.069 --> 01:40:54.911
It's nice to have like a laptop that

01:40:54.930 --> 01:40:55.511
lasts all day.

01:40:55.690 --> 01:41:00.011
And something like Asahi Linux on a Mac

01:41:00.131 --> 01:41:02.172
is probably one of my favorite Linux

01:41:02.493 --> 01:41:03.153
experiences.

01:41:03.592 --> 01:41:05.292
But there are definitely limitations to

01:41:05.313 --> 01:41:05.512
that.

01:41:05.552 --> 01:41:06.934
So it's not something I could recommend to

01:41:06.953 --> 01:41:07.373
anyone.

01:41:08.293 --> 01:41:09.175
Everyone, certainly.

01:41:11.478 --> 01:41:13.640
When it comes to other stuff, I know,

01:41:14.381 --> 01:41:15.884
and it looks like Nate just pulled that

01:41:15.923 --> 01:41:16.024
up,

01:41:16.064 --> 01:41:18.287
we do have a general guide on choosing

01:41:18.327 --> 01:41:18.686
hardware,

01:41:18.707 --> 01:41:20.408
and there is a picking computer section.

01:41:20.448 --> 01:41:21.631
So you could take a look at that

01:41:22.030 --> 01:41:22.591
for some...

01:41:23.706 --> 01:41:24.126
Advice,

01:41:24.206 --> 01:41:26.226
there's a variety of things to look for,

01:41:27.307 --> 01:41:31.029
like researching how easy it is to patch

01:41:31.090 --> 01:41:33.591
the firmware on your computer from Linux,

01:41:33.610 --> 01:41:35.853
because that is important for security

01:41:35.893 --> 01:41:36.372
reasons,

01:41:38.094 --> 01:41:41.836
or what kind of secure element they have

01:41:41.855 --> 01:41:42.636
for encryption.

01:41:42.695 --> 01:41:43.157
Typically,

01:41:43.256 --> 01:41:44.917
all of these will come with that built

01:41:45.057 --> 01:41:46.557
into the CPU,

01:41:46.578 --> 01:41:47.559
so it's not a huge concern.

01:41:49.560 --> 01:41:52.402
but yeah definitely like whatever provider

01:41:52.542 --> 01:41:55.543
or whatever manufacturer you decide you

01:41:55.724 --> 01:41:58.246
probably want to go with i would research

01:41:59.167 --> 01:42:02.609
uh their track record with non-os stuff

01:42:02.649 --> 01:42:04.871
like like firmware updates for example

01:42:04.890 --> 01:42:06.192
that you might want to have on linux

01:42:06.231 --> 01:42:07.693
because some of a lot of that will

01:42:07.712 --> 01:42:09.913
come down to the specific manufacturer but

01:42:09.974 --> 01:42:13.275
as far as specific brands of like what

01:42:13.336 --> 01:42:15.097
laptops you can choose i don't have um

01:42:16.507 --> 01:42:17.748
Any specific advice?

01:42:17.788 --> 01:42:18.448
Unfortunately,

01:42:19.010 --> 01:42:19.949
that would be a good question.

01:42:19.989 --> 01:42:20.210
Like,

01:42:20.930 --> 01:42:22.511
if you have a lot of specific

01:42:23.091 --> 01:42:23.932
requirements,

01:42:24.252 --> 01:42:26.654
or want to share more information about

01:42:26.694 --> 01:42:26.895
that,

01:42:26.975 --> 01:42:28.695
I think if you ask on our forum

01:42:28.796 --> 01:42:31.198
at discuss dot privacy guides.net,

01:42:31.618 --> 01:42:33.578
and can share a bit more about what

01:42:33.618 --> 01:42:34.880
exactly you're looking for,

01:42:34.920 --> 01:42:36.201
what's important to you in a laptop,

01:42:36.261 --> 01:42:38.322
I think that the community would probably

01:42:38.402 --> 01:42:40.663
be able to come up with a lot

01:42:40.684 --> 01:42:42.164
of answers for you that you could

01:42:42.185 --> 01:42:42.505
consider.

01:42:44.929 --> 01:42:45.069
Yeah,

01:42:45.088 --> 01:42:46.091
that was kind of my thought while you

01:42:46.110 --> 01:42:47.471
were talking is like what I,

01:42:47.592 --> 01:42:49.475
I feel like which Linux distro is going

01:42:49.515 --> 01:42:50.636
to determine a lot and your,

01:42:50.697 --> 01:42:51.738
your threat model and everything.

01:42:51.778 --> 01:42:51.979
Right.

01:42:52.059 --> 01:42:52.859
And somebody else here.

01:42:53.239 --> 01:42:53.881
Um,

01:42:53.921 --> 01:42:55.222
somebody else has price limit and then

01:42:55.243 --> 01:42:56.944
shared a link to Nova custom, which, uh,

01:42:57.984 --> 01:42:58.363
Yeah.

01:42:58.484 --> 01:43:00.704
Nova Customs sent Henry from TechLore.

01:43:00.744 --> 01:43:01.765
He was telling me he's put the video

01:43:01.826 --> 01:43:02.206
out by now,

01:43:02.225 --> 01:43:03.786
but they sent him a laptop that had

01:43:03.805 --> 01:43:06.266
like ninety two gigs of RAM or something

01:43:06.307 --> 01:43:07.547
and say this was way before the RAM

01:43:07.587 --> 01:43:07.988
shortage.

01:43:08.488 --> 01:43:09.349
And I was just like, bro,

01:43:09.368 --> 01:43:10.088
what are you going to do with it

01:43:10.109 --> 01:43:10.588
when you're done?

01:43:10.609 --> 01:43:11.350
You want to give it to me?

01:43:11.470 --> 01:43:12.869
But yeah,

01:43:12.930 --> 01:43:14.310
it really depends because like I'm like

01:43:14.371 --> 01:43:15.591
I'm a cubes user, for example.

01:43:15.650 --> 01:43:15.872
Right.

01:43:15.971 --> 01:43:17.872
And so if I'm going to buy a

01:43:17.931 --> 01:43:18.353
laptop,

01:43:18.412 --> 01:43:20.172
it has to meet very specific requirements

01:43:20.193 --> 01:43:21.753
about the TPM and it has to have

01:43:21.774 --> 01:43:22.975
an SSD and it has to have a

01:43:23.015 --> 01:43:23.835
certain amount of RAM and

01:43:24.297 --> 01:43:25.918
apparently also has to have a more modern

01:43:25.958 --> 01:43:26.439
processor,

01:43:26.479 --> 01:43:28.801
because older processors really slow it

01:43:28.822 --> 01:43:29.082
down.

01:43:30.082 --> 01:43:31.104
Versus if you're going to install

01:43:31.144 --> 01:43:32.444
something like Ubuntu,

01:43:33.246 --> 01:43:34.246
that'll run on anything,

01:43:35.546 --> 01:43:36.969
which we don't recommend Ubuntu.

01:43:36.988 --> 01:43:38.310
There are better distros out there.

01:43:38.369 --> 01:43:40.011
But maybe you have a use case,

01:43:40.150 --> 01:43:40.811
and for some reason,

01:43:40.832 --> 01:43:41.672
that's the one you want to use.

01:43:42.533 --> 01:43:42.753
Yeah,

01:43:42.814 --> 01:43:44.996
I think I'm glad you mentioned the forum.

01:43:45.015 --> 01:43:47.337
Like definitely if you post in the forum

01:43:47.358 --> 01:43:48.038
and you're like, hey,

01:43:48.939 --> 01:43:49.659
here's my threat model.

01:43:49.680 --> 01:43:50.440
Here's my budget.

01:43:50.520 --> 01:43:52.182
Here's kind of what my values are.

01:43:52.262 --> 01:43:54.484
I'm sure people will give you all kinds

01:43:54.545 --> 01:43:56.606
of every perspective you can imagine about

01:43:56.747 --> 01:43:59.329
the pros and cons of everything out there.

01:43:59.390 --> 01:43:59.529
So.

01:44:02.306 --> 01:44:04.868
Moving on from that question, first name,

01:44:04.929 --> 01:44:07.470
last name in our chat asked if there's

01:44:07.530 --> 01:44:10.372
any statistics we can share about the

01:44:10.393 --> 01:44:12.534
growth of the community or anything like

01:44:12.574 --> 01:44:12.774
that.

01:44:13.216 --> 01:44:14.396
I could pull up and take a look

01:44:14.417 --> 01:44:15.938
at some of this really quick.

01:44:16.478 --> 01:44:17.078
Unfortunately,

01:44:17.118 --> 01:44:18.920
some of our platforms that we were using

01:44:18.979 --> 01:44:21.502
for just tracking the amount of page views

01:44:21.561 --> 01:44:24.805
and stuff that we get aren't fully working

01:44:24.845 --> 01:44:25.244
right now.

01:44:25.824 --> 01:44:30.309
But overall, for the past year,

01:44:33.112 --> 01:44:34.974
Everything has been trending up by by

01:44:35.014 --> 01:44:35.755
quite a bit.

01:44:35.814 --> 01:44:37.877
If I look at our form, for example,

01:44:38.278 --> 01:44:41.822
we typically averaged around like seven

01:44:41.862 --> 01:44:45.525
hundred thousand page views a month to

01:44:46.688 --> 01:44:50.192
pretty much over a million January one

01:44:50.231 --> 01:44:51.012
point two million.

01:44:51.113 --> 01:44:52.173
But every every month

01:44:52.935 --> 01:44:54.115
That's on the form anyways,

01:44:54.176 --> 01:44:57.719
and that excludes known crawlers and other

01:44:57.759 --> 01:44:58.079
traffic.

01:44:58.100 --> 01:44:58.840
So that's very good.

01:44:59.360 --> 01:45:03.845
We've also seen the amount of people who

01:45:04.024 --> 01:45:08.188
just log in every day and post often.

01:45:08.228 --> 01:45:11.070
That has gone up quite a bit.

01:45:12.591 --> 01:45:14.292
so yeah we don't have like a ton

01:45:14.373 --> 01:45:17.515
of super detailed stats beyond that

01:45:17.555 --> 01:45:21.918
because uh we don't track a lot of

01:45:21.939 --> 01:45:24.541
that stuff but in terms of uh page

01:45:24.560 --> 01:45:27.042
views um that's up and i could look

01:45:27.103 --> 01:45:31.367
at like the number of members um that

01:45:31.407 --> 01:45:33.448
we have uh who sign up for either

01:45:34.708 --> 01:45:36.229
being a paid member and supporting our

01:45:36.270 --> 01:45:38.390
work or just signing up for a newsletter

01:45:38.411 --> 01:45:40.671
to get updates from our website about

01:45:41.212 --> 01:45:43.271
either about the show or new articles or

01:45:43.292 --> 01:45:44.273
videos that we publish.

01:45:45.073 --> 01:45:47.293
And all of that is going up.

01:45:48.994 --> 01:45:50.354
You can see like the total number of

01:45:50.454 --> 01:45:52.555
people who signed up for those

01:45:52.595 --> 01:45:53.615
notifications is up.

01:45:54.777 --> 01:45:56.658
Seventeen percent from just last month.

01:45:56.778 --> 01:45:59.259
So yeah,

01:45:59.378 --> 01:46:01.418
everything is on an upswing and we hope

01:46:01.458 --> 01:46:02.960
to consider putting out

01:46:03.998 --> 01:46:06.600
even more content that people find super

01:46:06.720 --> 01:46:08.319
useful in their privacy journeys.

01:46:09.841 --> 01:46:11.201
And we hope that people will stick around

01:46:11.220 --> 01:46:12.561
because I think we got a lot of

01:46:12.601 --> 01:46:13.542
good stuff going on,

01:46:14.221 --> 01:46:16.283
on our forum and in our communities that

01:46:16.662 --> 01:46:19.884
make it just a great place to discuss

01:46:19.923 --> 01:46:22.003
all of this stuff and hang out without

01:46:23.765 --> 01:46:26.225
any kind of negativity across the board,

01:46:26.246 --> 01:46:27.386
which I think is a really great thing.

01:46:31.520 --> 01:46:32.962
The next comment actually came from that

01:46:33.002 --> 01:46:33.963
same user.

01:46:34.003 --> 01:46:34.283
They said,

01:46:34.604 --> 01:46:36.265
a big story this week was the LLM

01:46:36.326 --> 01:46:37.167
de-anonymization.

01:46:37.726 --> 01:46:39.588
I did see that passed around a couple

01:46:39.628 --> 01:46:39.908
times.

01:46:40.689 --> 01:46:42.612
I was going to tell you to go

01:46:42.671 --> 01:46:44.654
check out privacyguides.org slash news,

01:46:44.694 --> 01:46:45.734
which I do still recommend.

01:46:46.614 --> 01:46:48.317
But weirdly, I did not see that story.

01:46:48.377 --> 01:46:49.377
We did not write about it.

01:46:49.398 --> 01:46:50.559
Or maybe it's queued up and it hasn't

01:46:50.599 --> 01:46:51.038
published yet.

01:46:51.060 --> 01:46:53.742
Because I swear I thought I saw Freya

01:46:53.902 --> 01:46:56.344
post that one in the news chat.

01:46:56.564 --> 01:46:56.824
Yeah.

01:46:58.345 --> 01:47:00.689
I'm actually looking here at the... Oh,

01:47:00.789 --> 01:47:02.012
no, we haven't written about that one.

01:47:02.073 --> 01:47:02.394
Crazy.

01:47:02.514 --> 01:47:03.395
We need to write about that one.

01:47:05.340 --> 01:47:07.184
But yeah, another...

01:47:08.983 --> 01:47:10.604
I would say as far as,

01:47:10.703 --> 01:47:11.824
I know we keep pushing the forum,

01:47:11.864 --> 01:47:13.966
but even if you don't want to sign

01:47:14.027 --> 01:47:14.707
up for it and you don't want to

01:47:14.747 --> 01:47:17.368
participate, the forum works with the RSS.

01:47:17.588 --> 01:47:18.529
So I actually,

01:47:18.710 --> 01:47:20.171
long before I came to work for Privacy

01:47:20.211 --> 01:47:20.430
Guides,

01:47:21.011 --> 01:47:22.351
I have the news section of the forum

01:47:22.492 --> 01:47:24.434
in my RSS feed just kind of as

01:47:24.453 --> 01:47:26.215
a safety net in case there's any articles

01:47:26.255 --> 01:47:27.796
that don't show up in my usual news

01:47:27.836 --> 01:47:28.055
feed.

01:47:28.576 --> 01:47:29.997
If somebody posts about it on the forum,

01:47:30.698 --> 01:47:32.719
I will get it in my RSS feed

01:47:33.479 --> 01:47:35.081
and I'll be able to

01:47:36.779 --> 01:47:37.619
to go ahead and see that.

01:47:37.659 --> 01:47:39.622
So I think that one probably got posted

01:47:39.681 --> 01:47:41.064
because I've seen it in a few different

01:47:41.104 --> 01:47:41.564
places.

01:47:42.185 --> 01:47:43.025
But I mean, if nobody did,

01:47:43.065 --> 01:47:44.367
then you can go and post it and

01:47:44.546 --> 01:47:45.188
be that person.

01:47:45.467 --> 01:47:47.289
So yeah, that was a big story.

01:47:47.711 --> 01:47:48.712
Jonah said earlier in the show,

01:47:48.731 --> 01:47:49.993
like there's so many stories,

01:47:50.113 --> 01:47:50.894
it's hard to...

01:47:51.814 --> 01:47:53.636
kind of pick, like, I'm not kidding.

01:47:53.756 --> 01:47:56.418
Every week we end up with like seven

01:47:56.458 --> 01:47:57.841
stories and we're like,

01:47:57.881 --> 01:47:59.322
we have to trim this down or this

01:47:59.362 --> 01:48:00.203
is going to be like a ten hour

01:48:00.243 --> 01:48:01.024
podcast.

01:48:01.064 --> 01:48:02.685
So it's really hard.

01:48:02.704 --> 01:48:04.306
Yeah,

01:48:04.367 --> 01:48:05.948
it's really hard to pick which stories to

01:48:05.967 --> 01:48:06.729
prioritize.

01:48:06.889 --> 01:48:07.989
And, you know, I'll be honest,

01:48:08.010 --> 01:48:09.150
like even even me,

01:48:09.211 --> 01:48:11.493
sometimes when I'm editing the clips over

01:48:11.514 --> 01:48:12.835
the weekend, I'm like, man, you know,

01:48:12.875 --> 01:48:13.916
I kind of wish we'd talked about this

01:48:13.956 --> 01:48:14.475
other story.

01:48:15.457 --> 01:48:16.358
Um, so like it,

01:48:16.438 --> 01:48:17.597
it happens sometimes it's hard to

01:48:17.618 --> 01:48:18.238
prioritize them.

01:48:18.257 --> 01:48:19.498
There's a lot of stories out there.

01:48:19.599 --> 01:48:23.001
So, um, definitely find reliable sources,

01:48:23.041 --> 01:48:23.900
whether that's the forum,

01:48:23.921 --> 01:48:25.681
whether that's privacyguides.org slash

01:48:25.742 --> 01:48:28.262
news, um, or a trusted outlet.

01:48:28.703 --> 01:48:29.923
Um, we don't cover it all.

01:48:29.944 --> 01:48:30.804
We try to bring you,

01:48:31.524 --> 01:48:32.725
we try to bring you the,

01:48:32.765 --> 01:48:34.145
the big important ones.

01:48:35.246 --> 01:48:35.645
Um, yeah.

01:48:35.845 --> 01:48:37.466
And I'll also say on this show,

01:48:37.587 --> 01:48:39.547
like the stories that we can, um,

01:48:39.568 --> 01:48:41.208
that we can discuss and have, have,

01:48:42.421 --> 01:48:45.143
Good things to add to and probably that

01:48:45.182 --> 01:48:46.543
people have questions about that we can

01:48:46.623 --> 01:48:47.664
answer on the live stream.

01:48:48.365 --> 01:48:50.027
We're certainly aware that like we don't

01:48:50.608 --> 01:48:51.747
cover a ton of stories.

01:48:51.768 --> 01:48:55.211
I know there's other shows that people

01:48:55.251 --> 01:48:56.993
might find similar to this one that really

01:48:57.092 --> 01:48:58.774
are more news focused and kind of cover

01:48:58.833 --> 01:49:00.215
every single headline throughout the week.

01:49:00.274 --> 01:49:02.936
And we explicitly haven't been doing that.

01:49:03.917 --> 01:49:05.298
But we know that people want to stay

01:49:05.338 --> 01:49:06.140
up to date with that stuff.

01:49:06.159 --> 01:49:08.641
So we are thinking about like more ways

01:49:08.662 --> 01:49:09.342
that we can get

01:49:10.283 --> 01:49:12.963
um just headlines in front of people and

01:49:13.083 --> 01:49:14.524
get that content shared even if we don't

01:49:14.545 --> 01:49:16.145
discuss it here on the show whether that's

01:49:16.185 --> 01:49:18.726
through like privacyguys.org news or from

01:49:19.407 --> 01:49:22.087
uh from other from other things that we

01:49:22.229 --> 01:49:24.128
are thinking about working on that we can

01:49:25.090 --> 01:49:27.230
maybe see if people are interested in soon

01:49:27.990 --> 01:49:29.811
um so yeah

01:49:32.148 --> 01:49:32.228
Yeah,

01:49:32.247 --> 01:49:32.927
I was just going to add on to

01:49:32.967 --> 01:49:33.448
that real quick.

01:49:33.529 --> 01:49:34.609
Even back when I was at Surveillance

01:49:34.628 --> 01:49:36.350
Report, where we regularly covered like,

01:49:36.430 --> 01:49:37.751
thirty to forty stories a week,

01:49:38.230 --> 01:49:39.690
there were still times that I was just

01:49:39.711 --> 01:49:41.572
like, man, we missed this story.

01:49:41.612 --> 01:49:42.953
We should have covered this story.

01:49:43.493 --> 01:49:46.234
It is so hard to pick which stories

01:49:46.314 --> 01:49:48.274
are the most important ones that people

01:49:48.295 --> 01:49:49.015
are going to resonate with.

01:49:50.492 --> 01:49:53.153
Going back to community statistics really

01:49:53.172 --> 01:49:53.554
quick,

01:49:53.573 --> 01:49:55.435
Jordan just shared that we just hit nine

01:49:55.454 --> 01:49:56.795
thousand subscribers on YouTube.

01:49:56.814 --> 01:49:57.496
So that's cool.

01:49:58.256 --> 01:50:00.096
Over fourteen hundred of those subscribers

01:50:00.117 --> 01:50:01.818
are just in the last month.

01:50:01.877 --> 01:50:04.118
So that's definitely growing quite a bit.

01:50:05.238 --> 01:50:05.600
So, yeah.

01:50:05.699 --> 01:50:06.560
And of course,

01:50:07.180 --> 01:50:08.841
we're constantly getting new followers,

01:50:08.860 --> 01:50:10.681
whether it's on PeerTube or Mastodon or

01:50:10.742 --> 01:50:12.203
other social media platforms, too.

01:50:12.243 --> 01:50:13.002
So all of those

01:50:14.384 --> 01:50:15.886
numbers are up as well and continue to

01:50:15.905 --> 01:50:16.127
grow.

01:50:16.167 --> 01:50:18.430
So I'm very happy that more people are

01:50:19.390 --> 01:50:21.172
becoming interested in all of the topics

01:50:21.654 --> 01:50:22.654
that we're talking about here because I

01:50:22.675 --> 01:50:23.275
think it's important.

01:50:25.942 --> 01:50:27.462
Yeah, for sure.

01:50:27.481 --> 01:50:29.162
We got a quick question from Twitter.

01:50:30.143 --> 01:50:32.184
Do you guys see MixNet and data type

01:50:32.224 --> 01:50:32.764
traffic,

01:50:32.963 --> 01:50:35.505
like the Molad data type traffic

01:50:35.944 --> 01:50:38.506
obfuscation tools becoming popular now

01:50:38.525 --> 01:50:40.765
that countries are coming for VPNs more

01:50:40.786 --> 01:50:41.126
and more?

01:50:41.567 --> 01:50:42.247
And then follow up,

01:50:42.287 --> 01:50:43.646
do you think these tools should be in

01:50:43.686 --> 01:50:44.447
more threat models?

01:50:46.127 --> 01:50:47.228
I don't know much about MixNet.

01:50:49.048 --> 01:50:49.668
I know data...

01:50:52.690 --> 01:50:54.190
I think data was designed... I mean,

01:50:54.291 --> 01:50:54.912
it's in the name.

01:50:54.931 --> 01:50:57.773
Data was designed more to combat AI

01:50:57.972 --> 01:50:59.894
traffic correlation as opposed to

01:50:59.934 --> 01:51:04.775
censorship.

01:51:04.935 --> 01:51:05.457
Personally,

01:51:05.577 --> 01:51:07.176
I would like to see something like that

01:51:07.217 --> 01:51:11.420
become more common just with the rise of

01:51:11.600 --> 01:51:12.239
AI.

01:51:12.300 --> 01:51:12.619
Earlier,

01:51:12.659 --> 01:51:15.881
we talked about how historically defense

01:51:15.921 --> 01:51:18.023
contractors had a struggle with...

01:51:18.925 --> 01:51:21.305
having too much data and not knowing how

01:51:21.326 --> 01:51:22.145
to parse through it.

01:51:22.985 --> 01:51:24.327
And for better or worse,

01:51:24.447 --> 01:51:26.408
I think that is coming to an end

01:51:26.448 --> 01:51:27.167
with AI,

01:51:28.427 --> 01:51:30.809
which is why I brought out the danger

01:51:30.828 --> 01:51:32.470
of trusting AI implicitly,

01:51:32.529 --> 01:51:33.810
that AI just says, well,

01:51:33.890 --> 01:51:35.230
here's all this traffic correlation,

01:51:35.291 --> 01:51:36.091
so he's guilty.

01:51:36.810 --> 01:51:38.391
And if nobody's double-checking that,

01:51:38.532 --> 01:51:40.393
things are going to get real bad real

01:51:40.412 --> 01:51:40.712
quick.

01:51:40.733 --> 01:51:42.273
I mean, yeah.

01:51:42.313 --> 01:51:44.394
But I think...

01:51:46.356 --> 01:51:48.377
I think if the last I heard the,

01:51:48.537 --> 01:51:51.078
the UK was very heavily favoring, uh,

01:51:51.239 --> 01:51:52.359
regulating VPNs.

01:51:52.399 --> 01:51:53.541
And I think if that happens,

01:51:53.600 --> 01:51:55.362
we're definitely going to see a spike in

01:51:56.002 --> 01:51:58.162
censorship obfuscation and resistance

01:51:58.203 --> 01:51:59.564
tools for sure.

01:51:59.804 --> 01:52:01.944
Um, but that's just my two cents.

01:52:03.760 --> 01:52:04.381
No, for sure.

01:52:04.822 --> 01:52:06.122
The tricky thing with all of this,

01:52:06.923 --> 01:52:08.046
with all the tools like that,

01:52:08.105 --> 01:52:13.233
is that they typically are easy to detect,

01:52:13.432 --> 01:52:15.336
like, just from your ISP standpoint.

01:52:15.355 --> 01:52:18.380
So, well, similar to a VPN, like...

01:52:19.541 --> 01:52:22.063
It's challenging to see what you're doing

01:52:22.103 --> 01:52:24.765
with those connections and even more

01:52:24.805 --> 01:52:28.068
challenging with something like Tor or

01:52:28.108 --> 01:52:30.409
other mixnets because there isn't a single

01:52:30.449 --> 01:52:32.551
VPN provider that legal authorities can go

01:52:32.631 --> 01:52:32.872
after.

01:52:35.134 --> 01:52:36.895
Hiding what you're doing,

01:52:37.354 --> 01:52:41.235
hiding just the fact that you're trying to

01:52:41.355 --> 01:52:42.976
maintain your privacy and trying to

01:52:43.037 --> 01:52:45.317
protect your security and your data on the

01:52:45.356 --> 01:52:45.677
internet,

01:52:45.877 --> 01:52:47.037
hiding the fact that you want to do

01:52:47.078 --> 01:52:48.738
all of that in general from your ISP

01:52:48.798 --> 01:52:50.559
is a very challenging thing to do.

01:52:51.219 --> 01:52:53.239
And again,

01:52:53.279 --> 01:52:55.081
similar to like what I talked about in

01:52:55.581 --> 01:52:56.480
earlier in the show,

01:52:57.301 --> 01:53:00.582
I think it's just incredibly important to

01:53:00.622 --> 01:53:01.863
remember that like,

01:53:03.122 --> 01:53:05.103
This isn't only a technical issue that can

01:53:05.122 --> 01:53:06.804
be solved with something like Mixnets.

01:53:06.984 --> 01:53:09.623
It's really a case where people need to

01:53:09.703 --> 01:53:14.005
demand from their governments and from

01:53:14.064 --> 01:53:17.185
politicians that the right to maintain

01:53:17.206 --> 01:53:19.587
your security online and the right to

01:53:19.646 --> 01:53:21.966
maintain your privacy when you're browsing

01:53:21.987 --> 01:53:24.287
the web and avoid trackers and all of

01:53:24.307 --> 01:53:24.768
this stuff

01:53:25.847 --> 01:53:27.810
That is something that needs to be

01:53:28.689 --> 01:53:31.773
enshrined in law and upheld by these

01:53:31.813 --> 01:53:32.493
institutions.

01:53:33.713 --> 01:53:35.916
It's not something that technical people

01:53:36.015 --> 01:53:38.256
are going to be able to just thwart

01:53:38.296 --> 01:53:40.698
forever if the governments are really

01:53:40.738 --> 01:53:42.140
going after this super hard.

01:53:44.122 --> 01:53:47.484
And so it's very challenging, I think,

01:53:47.823 --> 01:53:48.685
in a lot of places.

01:53:48.765 --> 01:53:52.108
And if you're in a particularly oppressive

01:53:52.268 --> 01:53:52.667
regime,

01:53:52.688 --> 01:53:53.969
you don't have a lot of options and

01:53:54.009 --> 01:53:54.789
you kind of just have to

01:53:56.106 --> 01:53:56.988
go with what works,

01:53:57.108 --> 01:54:02.511
but we're seeing all of these laws like

01:54:02.610 --> 01:54:04.792
age verification and other privacy

01:54:04.832 --> 01:54:08.154
invasive things, proposed VPN bans,

01:54:08.194 --> 01:54:08.854
et cetera,

01:54:09.114 --> 01:54:11.456
happening in countries that are supposedly

01:54:11.895 --> 01:54:13.858
very democratic and should give you a lot

01:54:13.877 --> 01:54:14.337
of control.

01:54:14.658 --> 01:54:18.039
And these are wildly unpopular ideas,

01:54:18.100 --> 01:54:20.261
especially when people fully understand

01:54:20.280 --> 01:54:21.462
what these laws are asking for.

01:54:23.443 --> 01:54:25.764
I think people need to recognize that you

01:54:25.823 --> 01:54:26.904
actually do have a lot of power if

01:54:26.923 --> 01:54:28.805
you don't want these laws to be passed

01:54:28.984 --> 01:54:35.386
and you need to demand more heavily of

01:54:35.445 --> 01:54:38.787
your own government that this sort of law

01:54:38.947 --> 01:54:40.368
is completely unacceptable.

01:54:41.528 --> 01:54:44.309
That is the solution that we have to

01:54:44.328 --> 01:54:46.269
do in a democracy at the end of

01:54:46.309 --> 01:54:47.149
the day.

01:54:47.189 --> 01:54:48.970
And more people need to take up the

01:54:48.989 --> 01:54:49.609
mantle on that.

01:54:53.703 --> 01:54:54.082
Yeah,

01:54:54.143 --> 01:55:00.387
I don't have much to add to that.

01:55:00.408 --> 01:55:01.509
I did one quick follow-up.

01:55:01.548 --> 01:55:03.310
I think this is probably our last question

01:55:03.329 --> 01:55:03.470
here.

01:55:03.489 --> 01:55:04.570
But first name, last name,

01:55:05.332 --> 01:55:06.813
that asked the laptop question earlier.

01:55:07.132 --> 01:55:08.613
They said they were thinking about Cubes.

01:55:09.055 --> 01:55:09.295
Yeah,

01:55:09.314 --> 01:55:12.497
somebody else mentioned the HSI score.

01:55:13.078 --> 01:55:14.479
Cubes does have,

01:55:14.559 --> 01:55:15.819
it should be fairly easy to find if

01:55:15.840 --> 01:55:16.760
you,

01:55:16.840 --> 01:55:17.600
I think if you just go to their

01:55:17.621 --> 01:55:18.220
documentation,

01:55:18.261 --> 01:55:19.381
it's like one of the first topics.

01:55:19.402 --> 01:55:21.104
They have a really good documentation for

01:55:21.144 --> 01:55:21.444
Cubes.

01:55:22.490 --> 01:55:26.453
They have a list of all the different

01:55:26.493 --> 01:55:27.573
laptops they've tested,

01:55:28.354 --> 01:55:29.835
whether or not they're compatible,

01:55:29.935 --> 01:55:31.095
which ones are.

01:55:31.275 --> 01:55:32.756
They'll even tell you which components.

01:55:35.457 --> 01:55:37.439
The graphics card drivers don't work,

01:55:37.479 --> 01:55:38.479
but the CPU works.

01:55:39.359 --> 01:55:40.820
It gets pretty granular,

01:55:41.060 --> 01:55:43.042
and you can look up whatever specific

01:55:43.282 --> 01:55:44.703
laptop you're thinking about getting or

01:55:44.743 --> 01:55:45.524
desktop or whatever.

01:55:46.264 --> 01:55:48.527
And they'll tell you if it's compatible.

01:55:48.567 --> 01:55:49.887
They'll also tell you if it's been tested

01:55:49.908 --> 01:55:50.208
or not.

01:55:50.248 --> 01:55:51.149
Like, yes,

01:55:51.250 --> 01:55:52.511
one of our team members bought this and

01:55:52.551 --> 01:55:53.152
confirmed it.

01:55:53.532 --> 01:55:54.073
It works.

01:55:54.412 --> 01:55:55.094
Yes, it works.

01:55:55.213 --> 01:55:57.076
But there's caveats or like, no,

01:55:57.136 --> 01:55:58.557
it doesn't work or like it should work,

01:55:58.597 --> 01:55:59.538
but we haven't tested it.

01:55:59.878 --> 01:56:00.460
It's really good.

01:56:00.961 --> 01:56:02.341
So I would definitely start there for

01:56:02.362 --> 01:56:03.884
sure.

01:56:03.904 --> 01:56:03.984
So.

01:56:04.884 --> 01:56:05.484
Not a question,

01:56:05.524 --> 01:56:07.686
but anonymous to at five so that ends

01:56:07.726 --> 01:56:09.269
new activism project is going to be a

01:56:09.328 --> 01:56:10.210
read for the weekend.

01:56:10.550 --> 01:56:11.171
Absolutely.

01:56:11.310 --> 01:56:13.273
I think this is an incredible resource,

01:56:13.333 --> 01:56:15.655
especially if you are interested in some

01:56:15.695 --> 01:56:16.917
of the stuff I was just talking about

01:56:16.997 --> 01:56:19.479
being an activist or an advocate for

01:56:19.961 --> 01:56:21.783
privacy rights in your area.

01:56:21.783 --> 01:56:22.042
area,

01:56:22.182 --> 01:56:26.345
or starting a local organization like EFF

01:56:26.425 --> 01:56:27.345
Austin, for example,

01:56:27.425 --> 01:56:29.485
where we're going to be next week.

01:56:30.025 --> 01:56:32.027
But organizing groups like that,

01:56:32.587 --> 01:56:34.967
I think a lot of the resources that

01:56:35.608 --> 01:56:38.649
Em has published at privacyguides.org

01:56:38.770 --> 01:56:42.350
slash activism are super useful.

01:56:42.650 --> 01:56:44.471
And even if you're not sure if

01:56:44.952 --> 01:56:46.634
you are a privacy activist or you're not

01:56:46.654 --> 01:56:47.234
super into that.

01:56:47.293 --> 01:56:48.916
I think a lot of it is very

01:56:49.256 --> 01:56:49.917
good advice.

01:56:50.016 --> 01:56:52.899
If you are interested in any of these

01:56:52.939 --> 01:56:55.141
topics that it's definitely worth a read.

01:56:55.202 --> 01:57:00.908
So yeah, totally check it out.

01:57:00.967 --> 01:57:01.847
Yep.

01:57:01.929 --> 01:57:03.289
Yeah, I saw that comment too.

01:57:03.670 --> 01:57:03.970
Thank you.

01:57:04.270 --> 01:57:05.752
We're super excited about it back here as

01:57:05.771 --> 01:57:07.234
I'm sure you guys can tell.

01:57:07.274 --> 01:57:07.394
So

01:57:08.844 --> 01:57:11.306
But I think that's all we've got,

01:57:11.447 --> 01:57:11.926
actually.

01:57:13.948 --> 01:57:16.971
So I guess we'll go ahead and call

01:57:17.032 --> 01:57:17.872
it here.

01:57:18.212 --> 01:57:18.832
All right.

01:57:18.853 --> 01:57:20.054
Well,

01:57:20.215 --> 01:57:22.476
all of the updates from This Week in

01:57:22.516 --> 01:57:23.016
Privacy,

01:57:23.157 --> 01:57:24.939
we share them on our website on the

01:57:24.979 --> 01:57:25.760
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01:57:25.819 --> 01:57:28.002
So you can sign up for the newsletter

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01:57:36.689 --> 01:57:38.970
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01:58:50.372 --> 01:58:53.376
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01:58:55.077 --> 01:58:55.858
Very exciting.

01:58:56.858 --> 01:58:57.538
See you, everyone.