WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.090 Mary Garner McGehee: When we think about, like, what is radio? 00:00:02.550 --> 00:00:14.340 Often we're thinking about, like, how can we take that FM signal and, all the people that listen and the community around that and translate it into more, in person things and, like, more points of connection. 00:00:17.183 --> 00:00:22.223 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:22.563 --> 00:00:28.163 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcasts, an agency for higher education podcasters. 00:00:28.913 --> 00:00:32.483 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, the founder of Jpod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:33.543 --> 00:00:35.133 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:35.133 --> 00:00:40.133 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:40.453 --> 00:00:44.233 Please also join our community at HigherEdPods.com. 00:00:45.933 --> 00:00:54.343 Neil McPhedran: Jen, in this episode, we speak with Mary Garner, Mary likes to go by MG, and her colleague Sage. 00:00:54.433 --> 00:00:56.753 They are from the University of Virginia. 00:00:57.393 --> 00:01:05.593 Also from WTJU 91.1 FM and the Virginia Audio Collective. 00:01:05.823 --> 00:01:12.923 We're going to dig into all of that and actually this is episode one of two episodes. 00:01:13.633 --> 00:01:21.253 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, because guess what happens when you get cool radio people in with Jen and Neil, we talk way, way, way too long. 00:01:21.593 --> 00:01:25.083 And that is why we're going to be going with two episodes. 00:01:25.093 --> 00:01:26.443 So get ready for it. 00:01:27.523 --> 00:01:27.773 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:01:27.773 --> 00:01:41.533 And there was a natural break where we really did go deep in the beginning talking about the radio station, which is, this is a college radio station with decades and decades of history. 00:01:41.573 --> 00:01:54.213 And how the radio station has really been a central place for an incredibly vibrant podcasting scene at the University of Virginia and how those two things have come together. 00:01:54.383 --> 00:02:05.663 Jennifer-Lee: I also thought it was interesting that these people are so into radio and then it's transferred into podcasting, like the fact that they want to go into a radio station. 00:02:06.013 --> 00:02:14.193 And we discussed that it's changing the idea of radio to a lot of kids is podcasting or other types of content. 00:02:14.203 --> 00:02:24.358 So radio isn't, you know, somebody with like the turntables back in the day, and they're like, I'm on CK and W 980, like I'm rocking it at ten o'clock. 00:02:24.538 --> 00:02:27.078 They're not, that's not what their thought of radio is. 00:02:27.088 --> 00:02:30.148 So it's really interesting that we dive into what is radio. 00:02:31.048 --> 00:02:31.398 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:02:31.448 --> 00:02:49.848 I think this is a great conversation because you and I have chatted about it a bunch before and we've talked about it internally, but for most universities and colleges, there is, or at least was, a radio station attached to the university. 00:02:49.848 --> 00:03:00.901 And it just feels so ripe for supporting podcasting like, you know, the obvious thing is the equipment, you know, that's the obvious part. 00:03:00.901 --> 00:03:15.506 But more, I think what we really get into and what's exciting is that's just the table stakes, but what they've built around that from process and people and just, you know, that's kind of the first place people call up to, like, I'm looking to do this, right. 00:03:15.506 --> 00:03:17.216 So super interesting. 00:03:17.216 --> 00:03:27.796 And I think there's a ton of learnings for the rest of us, higher education podcasters that are at a university that has a radio station there. 00:03:27.806 --> 00:03:33.551 And how we can think about it and approach it and, and use it in the mix for podcasting. 00:03:33.981 --> 00:03:34.291 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:03:34.361 --> 00:03:40.331 Well, I always say that radio, or podcasting is a rebirth of radio, because there's so many facets of it together. 00:03:40.381 --> 00:03:42.311 So let's get into the conversation right now. 00:03:43.216 --> 00:03:43.826 Neil McPhedran: Let's do it. 00:03:46.116 --> 00:03:46.576 Welcome. 00:03:46.612 --> 00:03:50.252 It's so great to have you here with us for the Continuing Studies podcast. 00:03:50.482 --> 00:03:51.562 Sage Tanguay: Thank you for having us. 00:03:51.602 --> 00:03:52.432 Mary Garner McGehee: Yeah, we're excited. 00:03:52.572 --> 00:04:06.512 Neil McPhedran: Maybe we can just kick off with, you guys play a couple of roles both with the public radio station WTJU as well as the Virginia Audio Collective which is a podcast network. 00:04:06.512 --> 00:04:08.902 Maybe describe your roles a role you play with each 00:04:09.117 --> 00:04:12.347 Mary Garner McGehee: Yeah, I can start by talking a little bit about WTJU. 00:04:12.387 --> 00:04:18.147 So WTJU is a community radio station that is owned by the University of Virginia. 00:04:18.157 --> 00:04:20.507 So we're not an NPR affiliate. 00:04:20.527 --> 00:04:23.977 We are a primarily music station over the air. 00:04:24.297 --> 00:04:26.307 And we're almost seventy years old. 00:04:26.367 --> 00:04:29.887 Was started by students almost seventy years ago here at UVA. 00:04:30.167 --> 00:04:32.267 And it's been, over its history it's really cool. 00:04:32.267 --> 00:04:33.907 It's had a lot of different phases. 00:04:33.907 --> 00:04:35.327 It's adapted a bunch. 00:04:35.377 --> 00:04:39.207 In the nineties, it was pretty big into the punk rock scene. 00:04:39.457 --> 00:04:44.997 A lot of the members of the band Pavement were WTJU DJs, which we're very proud of. 00:04:45.027 --> 00:04:45.877 Sage Tanguay: And talk about all the time. 00:04:45.887 --> 00:04:47.047 Mary Garner McGehee: All the time. 00:04:47.077 --> 00:04:47.527 Yeah. 00:04:47.782 --> 00:04:52.082 So these days, you know, WTJU has a couple different areas of work. 00:04:52.172 --> 00:04:59.092 Primary one is the FM radio signal, which has about three hundred volunteer DJs from the Charlottesville community. 00:04:59.432 --> 00:05:03.482 We also have an all student run station, WXTJ. 00:05:03.762 --> 00:05:07.632 And it's a low power FM, so it has a smaller broadcasting area. 00:05:07.852 --> 00:05:11.362 And that station's really cool because the students totally run it. 00:05:11.362 --> 00:05:15.827 They pick all the DJs, it's totally freeform, they can play whatever they want. 00:05:16.187 --> 00:05:19.937 I love turning it on, like you just never know what you're gonna hear. 00:05:19.947 --> 00:05:23.217 It's like very classically, like, college radio. 00:05:23.227 --> 00:05:24.397 It's really, really fun. 00:05:24.842 --> 00:05:27.052 And then we also have this podcast collective. 00:05:27.132 --> 00:05:41.192 You know, about ten, fifteen years ago when podcasting was like really starting to boom and people who weren't, you know, professionals were starting to get really interested in podcasting, the radio station was kind of thinking about how they might move into this space. 00:05:41.222 --> 00:05:55.967 And at the same time, there were a bunch of folks at UVA, students and some faculty too, who started coming to WTJU and saying, hey, you know, you've got microphones, you've got a studio, like, would you maybe be able to help us make our podcast? 00:05:55.977 --> 00:06:01.347 So it was just kind of this like very cool, organic, um, way that it started. 00:06:01.707 --> 00:06:13.522 And so now we have a podcast collective with over two dozen active podcasts and a whole bunch more of shows that were always meant to be limited run or shows in our archive. 00:06:13.952 --> 00:06:20.572 They're made by a huge variety of producers from across the whole state of Virginia, not just here at UVA. 00:06:20.877 --> 00:06:31.267 We have some UVA students, some community members, some folks who live in other parts of the state, and we also work with departments at UVA to help them produce their podcasts. 00:06:31.497 --> 00:06:49.177 My role is managing producer of the Audio Collective, so while I love coming in and hearing all the stuff on air at the radio station, primarily I work with the podcasters that come in and record in the studio, or those departments that we work with, and community members who have ideas. 00:06:49.752 --> 00:06:57.412 Jennifer-Lee: I'm just curious, MG, because you guys are young and probably a lot of the students around the same age. 00:06:57.672 --> 00:07:00.132 Do people still love radio? 00:07:00.132 --> 00:07:03.572 Because I feel like podcasting is now, I always say it's the rebirth of radio. 00:07:03.592 --> 00:07:06.492 I come from a traditional broadcasting background. 00:07:06.742 --> 00:07:08.382 I'm now involved in podcasting. 00:07:08.402 --> 00:07:13.412 But, you know, I talked to everyone, like I don't think anyone aspires to be a radio DJ now. 00:07:13.442 --> 00:07:16.102 Do you think people still love radio? 00:07:16.102 --> 00:07:19.522 Or do you guys see it kind of petering out and just be solely podcasting? 00:07:19.857 --> 00:07:32.727 Mary Garner McGehee: Well, you know what's funny is, for a while, when I had graduated from being a student and was a young person working here, the new students would always be like, oh my gosh, is it like the movie Pitch Perfect? 00:07:33.147 --> 00:07:33.537 And I think, 00:07:33.877 --> 00:07:34.807 Jennifer-Lee: Oh yeah, that's true. 00:07:35.057 --> 00:07:39.587 Mary Garner McGehee: The sad thing is, I think the students now are like, even too young for Pitch Perfect. 00:07:39.587 --> 00:07:44.427 Like, they were like in elementary school when that movie came out. 00:07:44.837 --> 00:07:45.867 What would you say to that, Sage? 00:07:46.277 --> 00:08:05.067 Sage Tanguay: Yeah, well, it's funny, I have a background in other community radio beyond the station in a very rural area of Virginia and West Virginia where community radio is like the lifeblood, you know, like it's how people get information about anything that's going on in town. 00:08:05.307 --> 00:08:05.987 Mary Garner McGehee: Shout it out. 00:08:05.987 --> 00:08:06.637 What's it called? 00:08:06.747 --> 00:08:07.947 Sage Tanguay: Alleghany Mountain Radio. 00:08:07.947 --> 00:08:13.407 Jennifer-Lee: While you're on that, I have a quick question because I love small town community radio. 00:08:13.427 --> 00:08:19.377 I had to do vacation relief for someone up in a very, very tiny town of five thousand, up north. 00:08:19.767 --> 00:08:22.217 And they still do it to this day. 00:08:22.662 --> 00:08:28.742 They do kind of like a yard sale thing where people will phone in and be like, Jake has a tractor for sale. 00:08:28.752 --> 00:08:29.992 Do you guys do that type of stuff? 00:08:30.482 --> 00:08:30.792 Sage Tanguay: Yeah. 00:08:30.792 --> 00:08:32.922 So Alleghany Mountain Radio definitely does. 00:08:32.932 --> 00:08:41.882 WTJU not so much, but Alleghany Mountain Radio does what we call swap shop where people call and list things that then the DJs read off. 00:08:41.972 --> 00:08:43.672 They do birthday announcements. 00:08:43.672 --> 00:08:46.722 They do obituary readings every single day. 00:08:47.002 --> 00:08:54.302 It's a massive geographic area that station covers or it's a network, but it's like the least populous counties in both. 00:08:54.352 --> 00:08:56.972 It's the two least populous counties in Virginia. 00:08:57.372 --> 00:09:02.142 And I'm pretty sure one of the smaller counties in West Virginia, I don't know where. 00:09:02.272 --> 00:09:05.502 Pocahontas is on the rankings, but very, very rural. 00:09:05.512 --> 00:09:10.292 A lot of lost dog notices and stuff like that, or like, hey, your emu is out running on the road. 00:09:10.302 --> 00:09:11.042 Please come get it. 00:09:11.402 --> 00:09:12.152 Stuff like that. 00:09:12.452 --> 00:09:16.822 Jennifer-Lee: I love that but people don't believe me when I talk about this, but it's a real thing. 00:09:17.232 --> 00:09:17.992 Sage Tanguay: It's very real. 00:09:17.992 --> 00:09:21.152 So that's my background in, well, okay, let me go back a little bit. 00:09:21.402 --> 00:09:23.652 So I also was a student here at UVA. 00:09:23.672 --> 00:09:30.327 I did student radio and I was an intern at WTJU for some of our public interest programming at the time. 00:09:30.747 --> 00:09:33.637 And I got into podcasting that way. 00:09:33.667 --> 00:09:35.417 I did some student podcasts. 00:09:35.477 --> 00:09:37.447 Did a blind dating podcast. 00:09:37.797 --> 00:09:39.077 Jennifer-Lee: Oh, that sounds awesome. 00:09:39.087 --> 00:09:43.507 Sage Tanguay: Yeah, it was actually very similar to Love is Blind, long before Love is Blind was a thing. 00:09:43.507 --> 00:09:49.137 But we would record their first interaction, and then reveal, and then send them out on a date. 00:09:49.367 --> 00:09:52.967 Mary Garner McGehee: We're going to write the cease and desist after this podcast episode. 00:09:52.977 --> 00:09:54.557 Sage Tanguay: But it didn't last very long. 00:09:54.567 --> 00:09:57.097 It was just, you know, students kind of experimenting with stuff. 00:09:57.097 --> 00:10:02.777 So but then I left school and I went and worked for my hometown radio station, Alleghany Mountain Radio. 00:10:03.117 --> 00:10:12.647 I think there are a lot of ways in which podcasting is bringing people back to seeing audio as a really powerful format. 00:10:13.467 --> 00:10:31.397 But I don't know if it's necessarily going to replace, I think it's just because I come from a place where radio is so essential, it's like an essential public service, that there's no way a podcast can kind of really address that same niche. 00:10:31.937 --> 00:10:44.177 Jennifer-Lee: Do you think though it's gonna, maybe not in the small towns, because I totally, I get that it's something that's really important, especially with a lot of the weather phenomenons that we've been having lately, it is a source of information for people. 00:10:44.177 --> 00:10:50.527 But do you think, in the university and college, that we're not going to see radio stations anymore. 00:10:50.537 --> 00:10:53.127 It's just going to be podcast networks. 00:10:54.407 --> 00:10:56.787 Sage Tanguay: I, I think we're already seeing a lot of that. 00:10:56.797 --> 00:11:02.177 We just recently had the Virginia College Radio Conference here at WTJU. 00:11:02.177 --> 00:11:13.707 So we had, I think, five other university groups of students who, who run their stations come here to chat and kind of just exchange best tips and practices. 00:11:14.117 --> 00:11:18.657 And at least two of those stations are currently online only. 00:11:18.887 --> 00:11:29.282 So they're still running what I would consider to be like a traditional broadcast where a DJ comes in, they sit down, they play their music, maybe they talk a little bit and then the next show happens. 00:11:29.752 --> 00:11:35.892 Um, and it's a constant stream, but it is online only, so they do not have a terrestrial signal. 00:11:35.892 --> 00:11:40.242 They're not dealing with the, the same FCC kind of regulations. 00:11:40.582 --> 00:11:45.892 Some of them are always going to be that way, and that's just what they're setting out to do. 00:11:46.202 --> 00:11:48.902 I would say they still consider themselves radio. 00:11:48.902 --> 00:11:56.851 What's interesting to me is that those weren't the same college radio stations that were producing podcasts. 00:11:57.662 --> 00:12:04.292 The terrestrial stations were producing a little bit more online content than the completely online stations. 00:12:04.562 --> 00:12:07.522 To me, it makes sense, because I'm a radio and podcast person. 00:12:07.842 --> 00:12:16.602 But I think there's actually a really different thing that brings some people into the fold of either of those, those medias. 00:12:16.932 --> 00:12:22.832 Um, young people who I work with at the university right now, I'm thirty. 00:12:23.212 --> 00:12:29.382 So ten years younger than me, the students, some of them don't listen to podcasts at all. 00:12:29.962 --> 00:12:31.442 It's really curious. 00:12:31.462 --> 00:12:33.932 Like, they're like, why would I listen to podcasts? 00:12:33.972 --> 00:12:38.072 I think it comes from, they have like, really specific ideas about what a podcast is. 00:12:38.802 --> 00:12:44.692 Jennifer-Lee: It's interesting though, because most of the stats say it's the younger generation that listens to it. 00:12:45.107 --> 00:12:56.872 Sage Tanguay: It's more just that, I often come across students who have no connection with podcasting, which is always wild to me, because when I was a student, everyone listened to podcasts. 00:12:56.872 --> 00:13:00.472 Mary Garner McGehee: I think lot of people our age, though, got into it in college. 00:13:00.512 --> 00:13:01.352 Sage Tanguay: Yeah, no, that's definitely true. 00:13:01.432 --> 00:13:03.042 Mary Garner McGehee: Like, they didn't listen a bunch in high school. 00:13:03.072 --> 00:13:03.182 Sage Tanguay: Yeah. 00:13:03.232 --> 00:13:06.192 Mary Garner McGehee: But then, you know, you have more time when you're walking around and stuff. 00:13:06.312 --> 00:13:13.282 And I mean, also, I think a lot of students, you know, they go to college and they start swapping book recommendations. 00:13:13.322 --> 00:13:14.772 And podcast recommendations more. 00:13:14.892 --> 00:13:20.172 I'd say two things I've want to highlight on the question of, like, are young people listening to the radio. 00:13:20.537 --> 00:13:26.607 Like one, our student station gets like way more applications to DJ every year than there are slots. 00:13:26.667 --> 00:13:28.517 It's honestly very competitive. 00:13:28.847 --> 00:13:38.567 I think the reason for that is that when I talk to the students and they say like, I do radio, they are defining radio so broadly. 00:13:39.112 --> 00:13:42.742 They're talking about their show that they host on an FM airwaves. 00:13:42.752 --> 00:13:45.842 I think they also think of podcasting under that umbrella. 00:13:46.102 --> 00:13:54.842 And specific to like our student station, they throw like a ton of live house shows in like people's basements and they also like write a lot about music. 00:13:54.852 --> 00:13:59.472 So I think, you know, if you were to ask a UVA student, oh, what are the things you're involved in? 00:13:59.472 --> 00:14:03.152 And they'd like list off a couple of clubs and they'd say, I do radio. 00:14:03.372 --> 00:14:10.982 Like what they're really talking about is like, I'm tapped into this, like, music and art scene that's happening around the radio station. 00:14:11.232 --> 00:14:18.962 And I think WTJU also, like, when we think about, like, what do we mean by, what is radio? 00:14:19.422 --> 00:14:32.622 You know, like, often we're thinking about, like, how can we take that FM signal and, like, all the people that listen and the community around that and translate it into more, like, in person things and, like, more points of connection. 00:14:33.172 --> 00:14:33.402 Sage Tanguay: Yeah. 00:14:33.402 --> 00:14:34.177 I would agree with that. 00:14:34.437 --> 00:14:37.627 Jennifer-Lee: There's a lot of similarities to radio and podcasting. 00:14:37.637 --> 00:14:43.677 And I tell people this, like, it's so funny because scripted podcasts have become such a big deal. 00:14:44.087 --> 00:14:49.516 And I was talking to someone in radio and I was like, yeah, they've got sound effects and they carry the story and everything. 00:14:49.517 --> 00:14:50.407 And they're like, what? 00:14:50.407 --> 00:14:51.437 You mean like a radio play? 00:14:51.487 --> 00:14:52.447 And I said, exactly. 00:14:52.697 --> 00:14:53.837 It is a radio play. 00:14:53.867 --> 00:14:56.517 A lot of these things are getting turned into a new thing. 00:14:56.517 --> 00:15:01.887 But at the end of the day, people can argue with me, but they're all rooted in radio. 00:15:02.167 --> 00:15:09.337 But the difference is like you were saying earlier was the terrestrial station, terrestrial station really lets you make it local. 00:15:09.767 --> 00:15:12.227 Podcasting because you're kind of everywhere. 00:15:12.487 --> 00:15:20.672 You kind of have a more wider audience, but then you lose that personal touch of like the community that you have. 00:15:20.922 --> 00:15:29.392 So you really got to figure out, do you want to be a tiny podcast that really hits into like one area or do you want to be wider? 00:15:29.502 --> 00:15:39.792 Neil McPhedran: I think what's interesting is that it, it feels like when you're talking about that new college age, their definition is really mixed up. 00:15:39.792 --> 00:15:53.792 And so it sounds like what you guys are saying is when you say radio, they're not necessarily differentiating between listening terrestrially or listening on their phone with their air pods in. 00:15:54.102 --> 00:15:56.182 To them it's kind of the same thing. 00:15:56.212 --> 00:15:58.702 And I'm curious then what about YouTube? 00:15:58.942 --> 00:16:06.362 Because I think that's where maybe back, Sage, when you were saying how you come across these students and they say, I don't listen to podcasts. 00:16:06.857 --> 00:16:13.177 Do you think that's because they watch, quote unquote, and sometimes listen to YouTube podcasts, YouTube shows? 00:16:13.337 --> 00:16:23.387 Sage Tanguay: Yeah, I think a lot of those students are consuming either things that are actually podcasts, like have an RSS feed, but they're just consuming it on YouTube. 00:16:23.772 --> 00:16:29.822 Or they're consuming what I still consider to be podcasting, because it's the exact same thing. 00:16:29.832 --> 00:16:33.222 Like, most YouTube channels are just very similar. 00:16:33.242 --> 00:16:34.172 It's vlogging, right? 00:16:34.182 --> 00:16:40.262 The video essay is really popular these days, where it's like a heavily researched rant podcast. 00:16:40.262 --> 00:16:41.822 That's, that's all that it is. 00:16:41.862 --> 00:16:48.782 I think a lot of students are consuming media like that and don't necessarily connect it. 00:16:48.812 --> 00:16:56.672 And part of me wonders if like, do I think of all of these things connected because I make them and I know how similar they are. 00:16:57.132 --> 00:17:03.922 Um, so I think it might be something that like, if you're just consuming, you might see more stratification between some of these things. 00:17:03.962 --> 00:17:07.202 But once you start making it, it's like, oh, it's all, it's all the same. 00:17:07.512 --> 00:17:14.362 Jennifer-Lee: I also think podcasting is such a broad term, because Neil and I deal with this a lot when we're working with different people. 00:17:14.362 --> 00:17:19.092 And it's like, oh, let's take a look at what platforms you're on and we're going to upgrade your podcast. 00:17:19.092 --> 00:17:20.822 And they're like, oh, I'm only on Twitch. 00:17:21.002 --> 00:17:25.912 And technically Twitch is not a podcasting platform, but people think that is a podcast. 00:17:26.332 --> 00:17:30.202 Or some podcasts are strictly on YouTube and people think that's just a podcast. 00:17:30.202 --> 00:17:37.692 So I think media, broadcasting media, either you're on YouTube, TikTok, you could argue if you're broadcasting or not. 00:17:38.017 --> 00:17:41.557 All these things are getting muddled and everything is a podcast. 00:17:41.597 --> 00:17:51.977 Because like, to me, I'm so old school, even in podcasting, it's newer, it's like, I don't know if I feel that Twitch is a podcasting platform, but people would argue with me, like it is. 00:17:52.387 --> 00:17:58.827 Mary Garner McGehee: Yeah, we both get asked to come like guest lecture and undergrad classes a lot, which by the way, is like so fun. 00:17:58.847 --> 00:18:01.027 It's one of the best things about working at a university. 00:18:02.052 --> 00:18:08.682 Every time I roll up to a class, like the first thing, I'm like, okay, we're gonna take the first five minutes and I'm just gonna like survey you. 00:18:08.722 --> 00:18:12.932 And I'm always like, everyone wants to know what the young people think is cool. 00:18:12.942 --> 00:18:20.252 So I'm like, I'm gonna, and they're on YouTube, they're on TikTok, they don't listen to radio, they do listen to streaming, that kind of stuff. 00:18:20.532 --> 00:18:28.452 So when I saw some of this data that was saying like, you know, eighteen to twenty-five year olds are listening to more podcasts than like anyone before. 00:18:28.737 --> 00:18:33.377 Or I don't remember if it's like number of podcasts or if it's number of people, but they're listening to a lot. 00:18:33.557 --> 00:18:39.317 I was really surprised because I was like, that doesn't totally match up with what I'm like hearing anecdotally in these classrooms. 00:18:39.757 --> 00:18:43.037 But then when you scroll down and you're like, what platforms are you watching it on? 00:18:43.037 --> 00:18:43.157 Neil McPhedran: Right. 00:18:43.157 --> 00:18:44.267 Mary Garner McGehee: Exactly like you're saying. 00:18:44.617 --> 00:18:47.937 That's when I first started thinking like, oh my gosh, podcasts are on YouTube. 00:18:47.987 --> 00:18:55.097 You know, like that's not how I got into podcasts, but if the people who are listening are defining them that way, I think that's great. 00:18:55.697 --> 00:18:56.057 Sage Tanguay: Yeah. 00:18:56.057 --> 00:19:15.007 And I, maybe this is just, you know, my own generational experience, but I do feel like I listened to some podcasts when I was a student, but really like once you're an adult, living on your own, commuting places, trying to fill time in a way that you don't when you're a student because you're just surrounded by so much stimulus all the time. 00:19:15.357 --> 00:19:22.187 Like, that's really where my podcast listening just took off, and I was constantly listening to audiobooks or podcasts. 00:19:22.547 --> 00:19:24.577 Mary Garner McGehee: Yeah, when you're in charge of your own education. 00:19:24.577 --> 00:19:26.797 Sage Tanguay: Yeah, when you're in charge of your own education, for sure. 00:19:26.947 --> 00:19:29.177 Jennifer-Lee: And that dives into a whole different thing, too. 00:19:29.187 --> 00:19:32.457 Like, they just had, it was on one of the news shows. 00:19:32.467 --> 00:19:38.047 They said, is reading classified as a reading if you're using it as an audio book or an audio podcast. 00:19:38.047 --> 00:19:39.197 And I said, yes, it is. 00:19:39.497 --> 00:19:43.917 And then people were disagreeing with them, but I think it is, it's that you're gaining knowledge. 00:19:43.987 --> 00:19:46.477 Neil McPhedran: I think the insight here is a really interesting one. 00:19:46.527 --> 00:19:49.827 And you know, we're like the four of us are in the podcast world. 00:19:49.837 --> 00:19:57.617 So we probably consume a lot of podcast news and read a lot of, you know, industry things or whatever. 00:19:57.617 --> 00:20:00.292 And there's this, there's a few things going on here. 00:20:00.292 --> 00:20:03.262 There's this whole battle around video. 00:20:03.302 --> 00:20:05.992 And if you have a podcast, you have to have video. 00:20:05.992 --> 00:20:12.262 And if you don't have it, that didn't come up at all within the last ten, fifteen minutes for conversation, except for when I mentioned YouTube. 00:20:12.292 --> 00:20:17.762 So I think that's in just, you know, the last four conferences I've been to, it's video, video, video, video, video. 00:20:17.762 --> 00:20:20.482 And like everything we're saying here, there was nothing there, right? 00:20:20.482 --> 00:20:22.432 It was, but it's more about the platforms. 00:20:22.812 --> 00:20:30.042 And I think the other thing that is, I'm on this WhatsApp channel with podcast hosting owners and it's international. 00:20:30.042 --> 00:20:30.752 It's really interesting. 00:20:30.752 --> 00:20:33.912 And probably the average age is in their forties. 00:20:34.897 --> 00:20:39.317 And it's long time veterans who are very fully immersed in the podcast space. 00:20:39.537 --> 00:20:47.897 And there's a lot of preciousness right now that's going on in this channel about what is called a pod, I called a podcast that I work on a show the other day. 00:20:47.897 --> 00:20:51.157 And I had this guy like jump on me and say, that's the problem. 00:20:51.157 --> 00:20:52.167 You're calling it a show. 00:20:52.167 --> 00:20:53.657 You have to call it a podcast. 00:20:53.657 --> 00:21:00.117 If we don't call it a podcast, like buddy, like this conversation just exemplifies that. 00:21:00.147 --> 00:21:06.522 Is like, the kids, call them that, they're not going a podcast versus a show. 00:21:06.952 --> 00:21:10.422 And like, to your point, Jen, it's not Twitch versus YouTube or whatever. 00:21:10.422 --> 00:21:11.802 It's just like, this is what it is. 00:21:11.802 --> 00:21:18.622 And it's really interesting when you have a seventy year old radio station, that's like key to this whole thing. 00:21:18.622 --> 00:21:37.187 And I, anyway, takeaway for me here is that our audience is university podcasters and this just opens up this conversation we have to have about, let's not be precious about what a podcast is and it has to be an RSS feed or it doesn't have to be an RSS feed. 00:21:37.477 --> 00:21:41.902 And YouTube is wrecking the industry or whatever, I just think we got to embrace it all. 00:21:42.122 --> 00:21:44.212 We just need to be open minded to it all. 00:21:44.572 --> 00:21:51.852 Jennifer-Lee: Well, I'm going to jump on what you just said and add to that, Neil, is the fact that I really believe, and you and I talk about this a lot, is where your audience lives too. 00:21:52.057 --> 00:21:56.727 Every audience is different and every subject is different. 00:21:56.757 --> 00:22:02.297 And we're very lucky that we live in a time where we have all these different platforms to go to our audience. 00:22:02.307 --> 00:22:06.707 So why waste your time if your audience isn't on YouTube? 00:22:06.997 --> 00:22:11.987 Or if your audience is strictly on YouTube, why bother doing it on Spotify or Apple or all that? 00:22:12.027 --> 00:22:18.317 And then that's why a lot of them don't grow too, because we're not playing to our particular audience. 00:22:18.317 --> 00:22:25.747 And Neil and I did talk to someone on one of our episodes that is really known for YouTube and he teaches at NYU. 00:22:26.127 --> 00:22:28.147 And he actually said, which I loved it. 00:22:28.157 --> 00:22:32.667 He said, just because you're on YouTube does not mean you need to have video. 00:22:32.727 --> 00:22:35.097 And I said, you're preaching to the choir. 00:22:35.417 --> 00:22:37.907 Because he said the point is for searchability. 00:22:37.937 --> 00:22:39.437 And that's when I talked to people. 00:22:39.437 --> 00:22:42.637 I said, yes, you have to be on YouTube for the search. 00:22:43.322 --> 00:22:44.662 But do you have to have a video? 00:22:44.792 --> 00:23:02.052 No, because you guys probably know too, like I'm actually around the same age as you guys, but I just feel like an old lady, but I always tell people like when I was in radio and they were like, I was used to do like a, a music show, I was midday host and an afternoon host for a rock and a pop station at one point. 00:23:02.402 --> 00:23:05.372 And they were like, oh, you know, social media is here. 00:23:05.842 --> 00:23:06.752 Film yourself. 00:23:06.752 --> 00:23:07.962 And I was like, you know what? 00:23:08.052 --> 00:23:10.402 I'm so boring in the radio booth. 00:23:10.702 --> 00:23:14.502 Who wants to look at me in a radio booth on a microphone? 00:23:14.542 --> 00:23:16.082 And now everybody's got it. 00:23:16.142 --> 00:23:19.612 And I was like, to me, that's not the most interesting thing. 00:23:19.902 --> 00:23:20.992 I'm going to listen to them. 00:23:21.012 --> 00:23:27.511 But am I going to sit there and be like, unless they have a celebrity, I'm going to watch Joe sit there in front of a microphone and talk to me. 00:23:27.512 --> 00:23:29.532 That's not why I'm watching on YouTube. 00:23:29.572 --> 00:23:31.102 Anyways, that's a pet peeve of mine. 00:23:31.102 --> 00:23:37.407 It's like, I don't really think people are that interesting in front of a microphone in a room. 00:23:37.857 --> 00:23:45.477 Mary Garner McGehee: I think a challenge that we're seeing with it, and I will say it's been awesome that YouTube added the ability to add shows by RSS. 00:23:45.487 --> 00:23:46.427 I mean, that's great. 00:23:46.457 --> 00:23:49.177 Like, now you don't have to make, yeah, fantastic. 00:23:49.737 --> 00:23:55.037 Um, you know, every time somebody comes in with a new podcast idea, they ask about video, right? 00:23:55.357 --> 00:24:00.837 But we're also working with a lot of people who are very time constrained, who are very resource constrained. 00:24:00.847 --> 00:24:03.627 And like, our goal is to help them make something, right? 00:24:03.657 --> 00:24:08.317 Like, they came in with a great idea, and we know they have very limited time to work on it. 00:24:08.317 --> 00:24:11.497 So we're like, how can we make this fit into your life? 00:24:12.002 --> 00:24:15.802 And I mean, it just takes a lot more time to do video. 00:24:15.982 --> 00:24:21.272 So often what we will advise people to do is start with audio, right? 00:24:21.302 --> 00:24:24.572 Like, start by just focusing on the audio. 00:24:24.842 --> 00:24:31.526 And once you've got that workflow kind of under your belt, that's when you can think about adding, like, the video component into it. 00:24:31.847 --> 00:24:41.687 And I think, you know, if there's a downside to video becoming so popular in the podcasting space, it's that I think one of the coolest things about podcasting is that the barrier to entry is so low. 00:24:42.257 --> 00:24:51.647 Like a lot of people who historically wouldn't have had access to audience, you know, are now able to do it pretty easily. 00:24:51.677 --> 00:24:56.807 And I think video is kind of raising that barrier, but I mean, there's a lot of, you know, bad podcasts out there. 00:24:56.807 --> 00:24:57.937 So maybe it's not. 00:24:57.980 --> 00:25:07.365 Sage Tanguay: I think that like, for me, it's really hard to extricate video's role in podcasting from celebrity podcasting. 00:25:07.365 --> 00:25:19.915 I think that, like when I think of video podcasts, I think of chat celebrity video podcasts that are largely unedited or under edited. 00:25:20.305 --> 00:25:34.205 And they are serving like a really different purpose and kind of occupying a very different space in the layout of the podcasting market than a lot of what we work on at a university. 00:25:34.465 --> 00:25:58.360 Not that there aren't, like, we have one comedy chat show and he does record his video and stuff like that, but that's like one out of forty shows that are in the collective What I tell a lot of students and people who come in hoping to use the resources is just, you have to understand that a celebrity podcast, like, even if there are edits, they're not the ones editing it. 00:25:58.370 --> 00:26:00.380 Like, they're not hosting and editing. 00:26:00.795 --> 00:26:03.585 Maybe years ago they were, but like now they're not. 00:26:03.595 --> 00:26:08.465 They have the money to hire producers to do all of that work with them and for them. 00:26:09.115 --> 00:26:25.655 I also don't think it's like useful to be upset about celebrity podcasting, because again, I think the perspectives that we're, now, granted, I know there are some celebrity podcasts that you take a listen and you're like, man, they just did this for trying to grab anything that they can. 00:26:25.655 --> 00:26:27.135 There's not a lot of substance here. 00:26:27.355 --> 00:26:35.165 But there's also a lot of really good ones that, like, literally no one else could host those podcasts because they're talking about the television shows that they starred in ten years ago. 00:26:35.505 --> 00:26:39.165 They're sharing these stories that people really do want to hear. 00:26:39.475 --> 00:26:45.210 I don't think it's a use, in a similar way of like quibbling over like, what is a podcast? 00:26:45.250 --> 00:26:57.750 I also don't think it's helpful to have a lot of angst towards celebrity podcasts coming in and kind of eating the lion's share of ad revenue and all of this stuff that I think is going on. 00:26:57.760 --> 00:26:59.690 It just requires a different approach. 00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:01.000 Jennifer-Lee: And that's the thing. 00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.320 It's an industry at the end of the day. 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:07.000 It's no different than any other industry out there. 00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:08.330 Same thing with books. 00:27:08.520 --> 00:27:09.990 There are celebrities that write books. 00:27:09.990 --> 00:27:11.780 There's still enough piece of the pie for everybody. 00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:13.660 They're very different. 00:27:14.090 --> 00:27:16.160 There is the business category. 00:27:16.340 --> 00:27:19.680 There's the education category that Neil and I work in. 00:27:19.910 --> 00:27:21.770 There is the celebrity. 00:27:21.790 --> 00:27:24.690 They're all different and they're all run differently. 00:27:24.730 --> 00:27:25.800 People are going to listen. 00:27:25.800 --> 00:27:33.700 That's the difference between podcasting is, there have been these unknown people, either it be true crime or any other genre that have become household names. 00:27:34.250 --> 00:27:42.835 It's because people get access to the regular people, and at the end of the day, most people, unless they're in the entertainment space are thinking about how is a podcast going to solve my problem. 00:27:42.845 --> 00:27:46.665 And again, that's where I put celebrities is there in the entertainment category. 00:27:47.215 --> 00:28:04.165 And to your point, Sage, there have been, I won't mention them on this podcast because I don't want to get a letter, but there have been celebrities that have had these big deals, that were probably maybe weren't even interested in podcasting, that people have signed and said, we want to use your name and your brand. 00:28:04.505 --> 00:28:08.625 And they have failed, and now they're not doing them. 00:28:08.625 --> 00:28:20.175 So I think the people that come to the table of smart ideas like the SmartLess guys, those are great podcasts, but they're not doing it probably for the notary, like they just want to start it up. 00:28:20.375 --> 00:28:25.355 It's not like Spotify or Sirius coming to you and be like, let's create a podcast. 00:28:26.765 --> 00:28:28.605 Mary Garner McGehee: I have one more thought on the video thing. 00:28:28.605 --> 00:28:32.815 So, you know, a big part of what we do is education, right? 00:28:32.885 --> 00:28:43.775 And you mentioned this being in the educational space, like being owned by university, a big part of our mission is like educating students in media technology, preparing them for jobs in that space. 00:28:44.535 --> 00:28:55.385 And I do increasingly feel like the students who come through our internship program or come to us for training need access to that video experience. 00:28:55.695 --> 00:29:02.415 I'm curious to know what other people who work in the academic space who also have this educational mission, how they're kind of approaching that. 00:29:02.495 --> 00:29:10.935 I feel like we're increasingly trying to create more opportunities for the students that we work with to learn those tools and have some stuff in their portfolios. 00:29:12.675 --> 00:29:15.485 Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen, that's part one of our conversation. 00:29:15.665 --> 00:29:27.315 We have cut that there and we're going to turn the second part of our conversation where we jumped more into the podcast collective, the network, for a separate episode. 00:29:27.325 --> 00:29:28.475 But wow, that was great. 00:29:29.315 --> 00:29:34.055 Just even, you know, we spent a bunch of time even figuring out like what, what is a podcast? 00:29:34.085 --> 00:29:34.925 I love that question. 00:29:34.945 --> 00:29:46.910 It's a super popular thing that just is continuing getting bantied around, I think, within our space of talking to fellow podcasters and whatnot and how video is changing it. 00:29:46.910 --> 00:29:51.780 And I you know, like there's just too much, it's almost too much people are talking about like trying to define what a podcast is. 00:29:51.780 --> 00:29:52.800 Jennifer-Lee: And does video matter? 00:29:53.330 --> 00:29:57.100 Neil McPhedran: Yeah does video matter Yeah, I think that's a really good point. 00:29:57.100 --> 00:30:01.350 So really good conversation there I thought with MG and Sage. 00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:03.730 Jennifer-Lee: And that's why there is gonna be a part two. 00:30:03.730 --> 00:30:08.190 So you're gonna have to wait and listen to that because there's so many good things. 00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:10.350 Neil McPhedran: Yes, so many good things 00:30:10.865 --> 00:30:15.635 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies Podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:30:15.965 --> 00:30:19.125 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:30:19.165 --> 00:30:25.385 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform so you'll never miss an episode. 00:30:25.685 --> 00:30:34.290 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also 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