1 00:00:00,001 --> 00:00:02,260 Every top expert has said this is a complete moral panic. 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:03,040 This is nonsense. 3 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,100 Sites like Reddit couldn't exist. 4 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,260 Platforms like Twitter couldn't exist. 5 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,180 A major Biden, you know, White House advisor got up on stage and said, 6 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,380 "We are going to remove anonymity from the internet." 7 00:00:13,420 --> 00:00:14,660 This is a bipartisan effort. 8 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,480 So there's not just one group that wants to do this. 9 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,280 RIP Privacy Guides. 10 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,100 We need to talk about what happened in Washington last week, 11 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:25,920 because while a lot of people are distracted by the holidays, 12 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,100 A House subcommittee is trying to take a sledgehammer to the open internet. 13 00:00:30,780 --> 00:00:36,080 On Thursday, the Energy and Commerce subcommittee on Commerce, Manufacturing and Trade officially 14 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:41,340 advanced a bundle of nearly 20 bills, many of which have names which sound harmless or 15 00:00:41,460 --> 00:00:46,240 even helpful like the Kids Online Safety Act or COSA and the Screen Act. 16 00:00:46,860 --> 00:00:50,820 But when you actually take a look at these bills, the reality is much darker. 17 00:00:51,260 --> 00:00:52,980 These bills are not about safety at all. 18 00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:58,060 They are about implementing mass surveillance on an unprecedented scale, and dismantling 19 00:00:58,140 --> 00:01:00,920 privacy and free speech on the internet as we know it. 20 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,340 Among these bills being advanced is the SCREEN Act, which will effectively mandate identity 21 00:01:06,460 --> 00:01:12,220 verification by a year government ID to access completely legal content across most of the 22 00:01:12,260 --> 00:01:12,580 internet. 23 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:17,400 Then there's COSA, a bill which will give state attorneys and the government the power 24 00:01:17,410 --> 00:01:23,400 to decide what content will require identity verification just to access, which will be 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,000 against educational resources and life-saving healthcare information. 26 00:01:27,820 --> 00:01:33,180 Looming over all of this is an ongoing push to repeal or gut Section 230, a law 27 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:37,520 which was specifically created to prevent the courts from misinterpreting the 28 00:01:37,540 --> 00:01:41,240 First Amendment and it protects technology platforms from being sued 29 00:01:41,380 --> 00:01:45,800 into oblivion just because they provide the tools which enable user-generated 30 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,460 content on the internet. These bills are moving fast and they're being fast-tracked 31 00:01:50,460 --> 00:01:54,960 by lawmakers who are counting on the idea that people won't notice until it's too late. 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:00,340 If these pass, the internet will become a place where privacy and anonymity is illegal, 33 00:02:00,780 --> 00:02:05,900 where encryption makes you suspect, and where the Americans ability to speak freely is determined 34 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:09,020 by the most restrictive state government in the country. 35 00:02:09,539 --> 00:02:15,180 To break down these bills, and more importantly, what we need to know to stop them, my colleague 36 00:02:15,380 --> 00:02:18,260 Nate sat down with technology journalist Taylor Lorenz. 37 00:02:18,940 --> 00:02:24,060 Taylor has been covering the bad internet bills beat very extensively recently, and 38 00:02:24,140 --> 00:02:29,160 I'm also going to link to badinternetbills.com in the description, and I highly recommend 39 00:02:29,300 --> 00:02:31,680 you open that website up while you listen to this interview. 40 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,600 It lists the bills, it explains the threats, and it gives you the tools you need to contact 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,400 your representatives, which is super important. 42 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:43,700 This is one of the most critical fights for digital rights that we've seen in a decade. 43 00:02:44,260 --> 00:02:46,060 Here's Nate's conversation with Taylor. 44 00:02:46,220 --> 00:02:52,160 Hello, everyone. I am Nate from PrivacyGuides, and today we are talking to Taylor Lorenz. 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:52,760 Hi, Taylor. 46 00:02:53,020 --> 00:02:54,340 Hi. Thanks for having me. 47 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:59,080 Thank you so much for being here today. Taylor's going to talk to us a little bit about some 48 00:02:59,180 --> 00:03:05,000 upcoming laws in the US that are impacting the privacy and security of everyone. But 49 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,960 first things first, for our listeners who may not be familiar with your work, could 50 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,760 you tell us a little bit about yourself? Who are you and what's your background on these 51 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:13,320 kinds of issues? 52 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:18,940 I'm Taylor Lorenz. I've been a technology journalist for over 15 years now, crazy. 53 00:03:19,780 --> 00:03:24,560 I cover mostly tech from the user side, so how people use technology, how people are 54 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,860 affected by technology, and I cover a lot related to tech policy and privacy issues. 55 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,660 So a lot about sort of free speech issues on the internet and also just surveillance, 56 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:38,120 government surveillance, corporate surveillance, the data broker industry, things like that. 57 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,560 And I have a podcast and a YouTube channel and a newsletter and yeah, I write about all this stuff. 58 00:03:43,620 --> 00:03:47,280 Also, I worked in the mainstream media, so I covered a lot of this stuff for the Washington 59 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,680 Post, New York Times, The Atlantic, and a bunch of other, the Guardian, other mainstream 60 00:03:51,820 --> 00:03:51,940 outlets. 61 00:03:52,460 --> 00:03:56,100 So, like I said, we're here today to discuss a few laws that are currently in front of 62 00:03:56,140 --> 00:03:58,940 Congress and they are very worrying laws. 63 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,160 There's actually a bunch of laws right now. 64 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,180 I think there's like 18 last time I checked. 65 00:04:03,860 --> 00:04:08,780 But specifically, we're going to highlight three that we at Privacy Guides feel are particularly 66 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:09,420 concerning. 67 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:15,340 And those are COSA, the Kids Online Safety Act, the Screen Act, and there are, we'll 68 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,400 say some proposed changes to Section 230. 69 00:04:18,340 --> 00:04:21,720 So I'm going to let you decide how we should kick this off. 70 00:04:21,900 --> 00:04:26,080 Which one of those would you say is either most worrying or at very least you think we 71 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,020 should start talking about first? 72 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,860 Repealing Section 230 is insane. 73 00:04:30,260 --> 00:04:33,740 And just to be clear, that's what the Democrats tweeted yesterday. 74 00:04:34,050 --> 00:04:37,979 It wasn't just like we want to reform it, it's we're working on repealing it, which 75 00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:41,080 Which is ultimately what these reform conversations are about. 76 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:43,040 They're about decimating it. 77 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:49,740 That's to me so terrifying because if we repeal Section 230, like all these other conversations 78 00:04:49,810 --> 00:04:53,740 will be irrelevant because we will no longer have free expression, user-generated content 79 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:54,040 online. 80 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:55,100 I agree. 81 00:04:55,180 --> 00:04:56,060 That's a good one to start with. 82 00:04:56,280 --> 00:05:01,800 So for listeners, in a nutshell, and please correct me if I get this wrong, Section 230 83 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:06,459 basically says that platforms are not legally liable for the content of their users as long 84 00:05:06,460 --> 00:05:08,700 as they make a good faith effort to moderate the content. 85 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,220 For example, privacy guides, we have our own forum. 86 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:15,060 And as long as we make a good faith effort 87 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,400 to remove any sort of illegal content, 88 00:05:17,540 --> 00:05:19,240 that means that we're not responsible for anything 89 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:20,280 that slips through the cracks. 90 00:05:21,060 --> 00:05:23,480 So from our perspective, this seems like a good move. 91 00:05:23,860 --> 00:05:25,820 We don't wanna be hosting harmful content. 92 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,300 So what is the argument to get rid of 230? 93 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:29,960 I'm trying to wrap my head around that one. 94 00:05:30,060 --> 00:05:31,820 - There is no argument other than mass censorship. 95 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,440 I mean, so let's be clear sort of how this all began. 96 00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:37,700 Section 230 is a law that's part of the Communications Decency Act, 97 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:40,480 which passed back in the '90s when the internet was just starting out. 98 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,620 And when the internet was starting out, there was this big debate over what the internet should be. 99 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,320 You know, was it going to be like movies? 100 00:05:47,740 --> 00:05:51,960 Like, was it going to be like, you know, where there's a rating system on every single piece of content 101 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,460 and content has to go through review before it's posted on the internet? 102 00:05:56,260 --> 00:06:01,640 You know, should there be some sort of body that regulates what sort of information you can upload and access? 103 00:06:02,420 --> 00:06:06,520 And back then, rightfully so, people who were proponents 104 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:07,640 of the internet were like, no, that's not 105 00:06:07,700 --> 00:06:08,320 what the internet's about. 106 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:09,660 The internet is this free place. 107 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:11,040 We want it to be this global-- 108 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:13,280 I hate the phrase town square, but we 109 00:06:13,340 --> 00:06:16,080 want it to be this global information resource, right? 110 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:17,840 Where anybody anywhere around the world 111 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,560 can access information, connect with each other. 112 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,640 This is when email was just getting started. 113 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,720 Social media barely was just kicking off back then. 114 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,800 So this is years before even Facebook launched. 115 00:06:30,220 --> 00:06:34,240 When social media started to get traction, obviously they rely so heavily on Section 116 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,060 230. As you mentioned, their sites like Reddit couldn't exist. Platforms like Twitter couldn't 117 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,800 exist because they rely on hosting user-generated content, which means that they, the platform, 118 00:06:44,290 --> 00:06:47,460 they don't have to review every single piece of content before it gets published. 119 00:06:48,340 --> 00:06:52,480 This is also how every single forum exists online and like even sort of like some email 120 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,699 messaging services to function, you know, rely on this landmark internet law that truly protects 121 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:03,580 the free internet. Now there's been all this nonsense about sort of harmful. The internet 122 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:07,380 is harmful for children. Now let me just be clear. Actually every single expert that studies 123 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,000 this topic is pretty consistent and has come out. Every top expert has said, this is a complete 124 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:16,800 moral panic. This is nonsense. Like actually there's no evidence at all that social media 125 00:07:16,820 --> 00:07:20,740 is harming children. In fact, it helps a lot of their mental health. Like this is all just 126 00:07:20,780 --> 00:07:24,180 sort of media driven moral panic. It's very similar to what we saw with video games, 127 00:07:24,620 --> 00:07:27,840 television, comic books, we see these exact same arguments 128 00:07:27,980 --> 00:07:29,340 come up over and over and over again. 129 00:07:29,860 --> 00:07:31,380 That has given a lot of people that have wanted 130 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,340 to censor the internet, people in the government 131 00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:35,120 that don't like what the public is saying, 132 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,100 an opportunity to say, ooh, we can sort of use this thing 133 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:40,800 of like protecting children to censor the internet, 134 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,100 'cause what the government ultimately wants 135 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:43,180 is to control speech online. 136 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,140 They don't want you criticizing the government. 137 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,660 They don't want journalists out there challenging power, 138 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:49,920 et cetera, especially not the government these days, 139 00:07:50,020 --> 00:07:51,620 which is, I would argue, more authoritarian 140 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:53,200 than even a decade ago. 141 00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:57,540 So they've decided that Section 230 has become this boogeyman, 142 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,160 where basically they're like, let's destroy Section 230. 143 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:01,800 That will destroy user-generated content. 144 00:08:01,940 --> 00:08:02,840 We'll eliminate free speech. 145 00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:04,900 And they claim, oh, we just want to reform it. 146 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,000 We want to make-- we want to hold big tech accountable. 147 00:08:07,340 --> 00:08:10,280 You know, why isn't Facebook more accountable for the things 148 00:08:10,380 --> 00:08:11,280 that are being said on the platform? 149 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:12,840 First of all, we have accountability. 150 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,940 Like, you can sue these platforms 151 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,220 if they're doing illegal things. 152 00:08:16,340 --> 00:08:19,700 You can prosecute these platforms for certain types of harm. 153 00:08:19,740 --> 00:08:21,340 Like, it's not like it doesn't exist. 154 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,660 If Facebook played an active role in doing something hard, 155 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,140 like Facebook has been subject to countless lawsuits. 156 00:08:29,380 --> 00:08:30,720 It's not like you cannot sue Facebook. 157 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,659 But as you mentioned, we want to hold the people 158 00:08:33,719 --> 00:08:34,599 responsible for the speech. 159 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,780 So if somebody is using a messaging app, for instance, 160 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:41,280 to mass message people information 161 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,580 that is considered harmful or is defamatory or something, 162 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,860 that person who says the speech should 163 00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:48,080 be liable for the speech. 164 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:54,220 For instance, we don't go around, you know, making it possible to sue AT&T because you 165 00:08:54,260 --> 00:08:57,320 said something over a phone call that made somebody else mad, which by the way, they 166 00:08:57,380 --> 00:08:58,140 wanted to do that. 167 00:08:58,300 --> 00:08:58,740 Let's be clear. 168 00:08:58,820 --> 00:09:00,280 That's what the media was arguing for. 169 00:09:00,460 --> 00:09:01,800 Back with landline telephones. 170 00:09:02,140 --> 00:09:05,380 They were arguing that, you know, landline telephones, people were getting so heated on 171 00:09:05,460 --> 00:09:06,640 conversations on telephones. 172 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:11,040 It was making people angry and driving violence in society and harming people's mental health 173 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:12,840 because they'd get really upset on the phone. 174 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,039 One guy tried to use it as a defense in his murder case, actually, that he was so angered 175 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,400 by this phone call that, and the media called on telephone companies to be regulated. 176 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,500 It's so crazy because the exact same arguments have been used against technology every single 177 00:09:27,580 --> 00:09:27,740 time. 178 00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:30,400 They argued this about newspapers, they argued this about novels. 179 00:09:30,620 --> 00:09:33,540 All of that's to say is none of this is about protecting kids. 180 00:09:34,140 --> 00:09:36,780 It's about the government's seizing control over online speech. 181 00:09:37,540 --> 00:09:41,080 Section 230, like you said, it relates to a wide range of political issues. 182 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,139 And I think some listeners can probably already hear, you know, you mentioned like, you can 183 00:09:45,140 --> 00:09:48,220 You can't sue Facebook and Facebook is still around, but if you sue some of these smaller 184 00:09:48,340 --> 00:09:53,220 platforms like Signal or Mastodon, they don't have the same kind of money to withstand these 185 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:53,740 kind of lawsuits. 186 00:09:54,459 --> 00:09:55,540 No, no, no, let me be clear. 187 00:09:56,799 --> 00:09:59,840 Currently they don't have to have that money because they are not liable. 188 00:10:00,540 --> 00:10:03,000 The people that post on them are liable for their speech. 189 00:10:03,699 --> 00:10:06,560 You could sue those companies now if they were complete. 190 00:10:06,940 --> 00:10:11,779 If they break the law, if Mastodon breaks the law or something, right, or does something 191 00:10:11,780 --> 00:10:14,920 but you could sue them for doing something illegal. 192 00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:17,720 Or you could sue-- again, there are these lawsuits that come up. 193 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,520 There are more protections for any platform 194 00:10:21,660 --> 00:10:23,020 that hosts user-generated content. 195 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:26,300 You mentioned, if you revote Section 230, first of all, 196 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,240 yes, it would consolidate the power of Big Tech, 197 00:10:28,380 --> 00:10:32,140 but Big Tech would have a lot more moderation capabilities, 198 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:34,380 so they would have the ability to host more content. 199 00:10:34,820 --> 00:10:36,520 But pretty much every user-generated-- 200 00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:39,220 every small site that relies on user-generated content, 201 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:40,779 it's not that they just don't have money 202 00:10:40,780 --> 00:10:44,640 with stand the lawsuits, is that they don't have the money to moderate every single piece of content. 203 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,680 They don't have the money. A small forum doesn't have the resources to read every single comment. 204 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:53,980 And then of course, they also want these platforms to verify the identity, the offline legal identity 205 00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:58,440 of every person as well, which is a whole other issue. That's the problem with the other two 206 00:10:58,650 --> 00:11:02,820 laws that you mentioned. Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. That's probably a better way 207 00:11:03,260 --> 00:11:10,760 to get at that. How does section 230 relate to privacy specifically? And how do you think it 208 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,800 Our forum isn't even that big, relatively speaking. 209 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,880 And I couldn't imagine having our volunteer moderators 210 00:11:15,950 --> 00:11:19,280 or even our staff, like that would be multiple full-time jobs 211 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,320 just for our forum to sift through that. 212 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:22,940 What are some other ways this might impact 213 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:24,540 privacy tools and privacy community? 214 00:11:25,060 --> 00:11:25,960 - Yeah, privacy specifically. 215 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:28,480 I mean, you're just not gonna have a lot of privacy. 216 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:30,940 Like for instance, a lot of people choose not to use 217 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,260 the major social networks because of privacy reasons, 218 00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:36,380 because these are massive data harvesting operations 219 00:11:36,610 --> 00:11:38,740 and they don't wanna give their data to Metta 220 00:11:38,860 --> 00:11:39,680 or Google or whatever. 221 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,520 They want to use some of these smaller sites, 222 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:44,580 or they want to engage in discussions around things 223 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,360 like abortion or their gender identity, 224 00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:48,840 or things that they want to keep private. 225 00:11:48,940 --> 00:11:50,880 And they don't necessarily want to log into a Facebook 226 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,680 account to have those conversations, 227 00:11:52,730 --> 00:11:56,020 or log into Instagram and have to verify their information 228 00:11:56,570 --> 00:11:56,980 to do that. 229 00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:58,640 So they want to use some of these smaller forms. 230 00:11:59,020 --> 00:12:00,160 Those forms will all be wiped out. 231 00:12:00,260 --> 00:12:01,820 Disabled people rely on this as well. 232 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,260 They want to discuss medical conditions 233 00:12:03,340 --> 00:12:04,860 without their insurance premiums going up, 234 00:12:04,940 --> 00:12:08,020 because a data broker bought their info 235 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:08,880 from a social platform. 236 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,560 So even just the ability to participate in some of these smaller, more niche forums that 237 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,920 have really good privacy protections will go away. 238 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:22,960 You will have to use these major social, really just Google and Meta, which have no, they 239 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,500 have a horrible privacy record, of course, as we know. 240 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,260 Yeah, especially Meta, really bad. 241 00:12:28,620 --> 00:12:28,880 Oh yeah. 242 00:12:29,660 --> 00:12:33,500 I think it's really important for people to note that this is a bipartisan effort. 243 00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:37,839 So there's not just one group that wants to do this, but the Democrats are really leading 244 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:44,620 the charge. And Democrats like have been so aggressive in pushing these surveillance laws 245 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:49,480 and censorship laws. It's scary. I think a lot of people associate Trump with these things. 246 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:55,500 And Trump has done a lot to attack the traditional media, but the Democrats are enacting policies 247 00:12:55,620 --> 00:12:57,720 that are further to the right of Trump on the internet. 248 00:12:58,260 --> 00:13:03,720 So we've been mentioning age verification and identity verification. And based on my 249 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,920 that one is largely, it is both COSA and the Screen Act, 250 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,800 but I'm mostly seeing it with the Screen Act, 251 00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:12,360 which I have not been hearing about very much. 252 00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:14,880 I had to really dig to find information about this one. 253 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,980 So again, correct me if I'm wrong, 254 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:18,280 but if I understand it correctly, 255 00:13:18,340 --> 00:13:20,980 the Screen Act is an age verification bill. 256 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:22,680 Like there's kind of not much else to it. 257 00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:24,460 - It's an identity verification bill. 258 00:13:24,860 --> 00:13:26,180 - Identity, yes, thank you. 259 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,760 I should really start saying that instead of age verification. 260 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,880 So it would require platforms to verify users. 261 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:35,500 Is this again, because it's kind of hard to find information about this one. 262 00:13:35,940 --> 00:13:39,320 Is this like just across the board, all platforms, or are they trying to sell? 263 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,720 This is one of those like, oh, only larger platforms or how is that one supposed to work? 264 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:44,180 Yeah. 265 00:13:44,420 --> 00:13:49,720 So, um, this came out of anti porn groups and these extreme far right sort of 266 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,840 project 2025, you know, heritage foundation affiliated groups were, and so did 267 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:54,700 Kosa to be clear. 268 00:13:54,760 --> 00:14:00,360 These are both originated in these far right anti LGBTQ circles where they 269 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:02,440 thought, okay, how can we get LGBTQ content? 270 00:14:02,540 --> 00:14:05,320 off the internet, designated as profane, which they also 271 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:07,660 designate any sort of sex ed education as profane. 272 00:14:08,020 --> 00:14:09,280 And then we forced it through Congress 273 00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:11,080 by saying, oh, we'll protect the kids from porn. 274 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,660 What they mean by porn is sex ed, abortion information, 275 00:14:15,140 --> 00:14:18,100 information about feminism, like LGBTQ content. 276 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:19,240 And by the way, I'm not making-- 277 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,680 Mike Masnick at Tectord has done a great job 278 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:23,700 of the Heritage Foundation coming out and saying this. 279 00:14:23,820 --> 00:14:25,100 Like, they're saying it publicly. 280 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:25,980 It's not even a secret. 281 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,780 They're like, yes, we can't wait to get this content 282 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:29,260 off the internet. 283 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:31,400 And so they want to do that through identity verification. 284 00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:34,840 mentioned, the Screen Act is more overt than COSA, 285 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:36,980 but both of them have the exact same effect. 286 00:14:37,140 --> 00:14:38,780 The Screen Act is just like anything 287 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,580 that has adult content, which is literally anything. 288 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,300 Because again, adult content is a completely subjective. 289 00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:49,000 And if you look at, for instance, 290 00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:52,580 that was some sort of Trump terror memo called NSPM 7, 291 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,920 where they designate who's hostile to America, 292 00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:56,020 who's considered a terrorist. 293 00:14:56,090 --> 00:14:57,580 And it's just like anybody that is 294 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,360 against quote unquote American values, 295 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,520 anybody that's against quote unquote Christian values. 296 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:03,140 These are all highly subjective things. 297 00:15:03,260 --> 00:15:04,980 So it's similar with the Screen Act, 298 00:15:05,060 --> 00:15:08,240 where it's like adult content, just as any content 299 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:09,220 that the government doesn't like. 300 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,000 So we saw this happen with the Online Safety Act. 301 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:13,660 We have here the Kids Online Safety Act. 302 00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:16,760 In the UK, back in 2023, they passed the Online Safety Act, 303 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,600 which just went into effect a couple months ago. 304 00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:21,240 And that's why you saw, for instance, 305 00:15:21,380 --> 00:15:23,720 the subreddit for war crimes was removed 306 00:15:24,060 --> 00:15:26,420 under these anti-poorin laws or whatever, 307 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,320 because any sort of police violence video, 308 00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:33,260 people speaking out against sexual assault, rape victims, 309 00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:35,960 alcoholics anonymous forms have been shut down. 310 00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:39,060 Actually, all these places for kids to report 311 00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:41,400 incidents of molestation and things like that 312 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,020 have been shut down. 313 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,880 So that is the type of content. 314 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,040 When you see adult content, content that's 315 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:47,480 quote unquote not safe for kids, 316 00:15:47,660 --> 00:15:49,240 that's the type of content that they're seeking directly. 317 00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:51,180 And yes, it would remove anonymity 318 00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:53,400 from the internet basically completely. 319 00:15:54,340 --> 00:15:57,340 - So this would require again, like all platforms 320 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:58,920 because you know, the common argument is like, 321 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:01,280 When I go by alcohol, I have to show ID, right? 322 00:16:02,020 --> 00:16:02,480 - No, you don't. 323 00:16:02,620 --> 00:16:05,280 Identity verification is nothing like showing your ID 324 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,480 in the real world, the IRL world. 325 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,560 First of all, you don't show your identification 326 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,780 to every single person that you interact, 327 00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:17,200 to every single store that you walk in on walking in, 328 00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:20,020 before you can even walk in, you have to show ID, 329 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,120 maybe to a bar, but certainly not to buy things 330 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,860 or to engage, to access information. 331 00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:29,560 And then your ID, your government ID, 332 00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:33,780 is not tied to every single piece of content that you read. 333 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,340 It's not stored forever when you go to the library 334 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:37,840 or when you go to a bookstore to buy a book. 335 00:16:37,980 --> 00:16:39,260 And then your government ID is stored 336 00:16:39,290 --> 00:16:41,480 and they can monitor every single word that you've read. 337 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,280 And then that can be used in a court case against you. 338 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,140 There's actually nothing like that. 339 00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:47,360 Not to mention, it's a quick ID check. 340 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,120 A human being looks at it quickly, 341 00:16:49,420 --> 00:16:53,380 doesn't memorize the info, checks there, and then moves along. 342 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,719 Here, it's stored in a database forever 343 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,680 But we know has absolutely no privacy. 344 00:16:57,860 --> 00:16:59,560 These databases leak constantly. 345 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,200 This is a massive data privacy concern. 346 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,340 And that data is then used forever, 347 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:04,860 can be used to target, you exploit, you. 348 00:17:04,939 --> 00:17:08,600 And often they're harvesting not just your offline address, 349 00:17:09,339 --> 00:17:11,400 physical, they are harvesting biometric data 350 00:17:11,699 --> 00:17:12,939 that is tied to it as well. 351 00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:14,660 - One thing I noticed with a lot of these laws 352 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:16,520 is that they're vague specifically 353 00:17:16,740 --> 00:17:18,920 when they talk about identity verification. 354 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,339 And they leave it up to the platforms 355 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,180 to decide how to implement this. 356 00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:24,780 Do you think that's a better way? 357 00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:26,420 Actually, maybe this isn't even a good question 358 00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:27,640 in light of this conversation. 359 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,220 I think I know what you're getting at. 360 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,700 A lot of times lawmakers will leave 361 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,680 sort of specifics around identity verification in vague terms 362 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,240 to argue that they're not technically 363 00:17:40,420 --> 00:17:41,740 mandating identity verification. 364 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:43,280 That's such a lie. 365 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,200 They know exactly what they're doing, 366 00:17:45,260 --> 00:17:46,720 and they know what they're doing because the identity 367 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,880 verification lobby has basically written 368 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,020 half of these bills. 369 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,960 This massive-- they're about to get billions of dollars 370 00:17:53,030 --> 00:17:53,800 if these laws pass. 371 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:55,720 But it's also just like a farce. 372 00:17:55,740 --> 00:18:00,180 There is no way to verify anybody's offline identity 373 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:01,980 in any sort of platform, whether you're 374 00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:04,720 a third party platform or a major platform, 375 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,200 without violating their privacy. 376 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:07,580 It just doesn't exist. 377 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,000 You have to either harvest their biometric data, 378 00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:14,000 but even if you harvest the biometric data, 379 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,640 that biometric data and then your behavior patterns 380 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,520 can easily be tied to your offline identity, 381 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,720 or you have to verify things with your offline identity 382 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,040 and often confirm things in other ways. 383 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,640 no privacy forward way to verify your identity 384 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,280 because they have to harvest a lot of information 385 00:18:27,330 --> 00:18:28,220 to verify your identity. 386 00:18:28,420 --> 00:18:31,340 And any time you're trying to cordon off parts of the internet 387 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,640 for children or make things safe for children 388 00:18:33,670 --> 00:18:35,820 and try to age gate any a thing of the internet, 389 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,480 a lot of people hear, oh, age verification. 390 00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:41,040 OK, so kids will have to verify their ages. 391 00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:43,380 No, in order to know who's a child, 392 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,500 everybody has to give up their information. 393 00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:49,380 And in case you weren't thinking, oh, maybe you're still 394 00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:51,160 giving them the benefit of it out, let me tell you. 395 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,180 I was at the Biden White House last August at this big day 396 00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:56,380 that they had for content creators 397 00:18:56,450 --> 00:18:58,140 to push their agenda, whatever. 398 00:18:58,740 --> 00:19:02,340 Neera Tandon, a major Biden White House advisor, 399 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,160 got up on stage and said, we are going 400 00:19:04,210 --> 00:19:05,600 to remove anonymity from the internet. 401 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,880 Don't you wish you could unmask every troll 402 00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:08,580 is how they were selling? 403 00:19:08,590 --> 00:19:09,700 Because they also try to sell these things 404 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,600 as some sort of answer to online bullying, 405 00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:13,740 even though we know actually removing anonymity 406 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:14,820 doesn't help bullying at all. 407 00:19:14,940 --> 00:19:16,620 Like literally go to the Facebook comment section 408 00:19:17,030 --> 00:19:17,720 of any post. 409 00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:20,060 You can see people are happy to bully under their government 410 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:20,340 names. 411 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,600 But they're explicitly saying it. 412 00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:25,540 So this has been a goal of the Democrats for a while, 413 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,960 and the Republicans as well, is to completely remove 414 00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:30,440 anonymity from the internet, in part to prosecute that. 415 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,960 Like you're saying already this happened 416 00:19:32,060 --> 00:19:35,180 with people getting fired or in legal trouble 417 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,640 for comments about Charlie Kirk or comments 418 00:19:37,660 --> 00:19:38,920 that the government doesn't like about Israel 419 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:40,580 or foreign policy, things like that. 420 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,220 I think this Screen Act is so insidious. 421 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,560 It's just as bad, if not worse, than COSA. 422 00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:48,780 But COSA, because COSA has been this thing for so many years, 423 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,740 and there's been a little bit more activism around it. 424 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,240 People are just more aware of it and they're not as aware of the screen act. 425 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,500 The screen act is just as bad to be clear. 426 00:19:56,660 --> 00:20:00,960 All 18 of these laws in this child online safety package are very bad, 427 00:20:01,420 --> 00:20:04,940 very bad. There's the app store accountability act, which is also really bad. 428 00:20:05,060 --> 00:20:07,060 That puts age verification on the app store level, 429 00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:11,520 which actually is worse in a lot of ways. Like trust me, there is not a single, 430 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:14,540 all of these laws are very bad, but they, they have so many different names. 431 00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:15,360 It's hard to keep up. 432 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,240 I pointed out recently actually on the topic of the app store one, 433 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,940 I said that I think it's really telling the even Apple and Google or specifically a lot 434 00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:26,880 of these companies are like, yeah, we're all in favor of this age stuff, but we don't want 435 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:27,000 it. 436 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:27,900 We don't want the IDs. 437 00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:28,740 We don't want the data. 438 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:30,520 Make Apple and Google do it. 439 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:31,660 And they're like, no, we don't want it either. 440 00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:34,280 And I think that's really telling that all these companies are like, yeah, it's a great 441 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:35,840 idea, but not in my backyard. 442 00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:39,980 Well, what's really scary, they say that, but then they pre-comply. 443 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,840 Meta and YouTube are already harvesting a huge amount of data. 444 00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:48,420 They announced this publicly over the summer where they said, we're going to start age 445 00:20:48,420 --> 00:20:52,360 things where we're going to start harvesting biometric data, we're going to start monitoring 446 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,820 more about how people use Meta and YouTube products. 447 00:20:55,900 --> 00:21:00,980 So if you watch Jimmy Skibbity toilet videos, uh-oh, now you're classified as a teen and 448 00:21:01,020 --> 00:21:02,320 you have to verify your identity. 449 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,700 I spoke to an undocumented woman who, this happened where she was using her main computer, 450 00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:09,340 her child was watching YouTube. 451 00:21:09,540 --> 00:21:11,020 It flagged her as a child. 452 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:14,780 Obviously, you can understand why someone who's undocumented is extremely concerned 453 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:15,140 about that. 454 00:21:15,820 --> 00:21:17,880 That's already happening now. 455 00:21:18,580 --> 00:21:20,240 And I think it's really scary because this 456 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,540 is what we hauled Mark Zuckerberg in front of Congress 457 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,940 for in 2017 and 2018. 458 00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:25,800 Remember, he was like, sir, I sell ads. 459 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,320 They're like, Cambridge Analytica, 460 00:21:27,420 --> 00:21:28,280 you're collecting all this data. 461 00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:31,900 Now, they're mandating that they collect even more data, 462 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,660 and they're giving them complete cover 463 00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:36,620 to start collecting huge amounts more data. 464 00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:39,300 This is like six years or eight years later. 465 00:21:39,420 --> 00:21:40,280 I'm like, what year is it even? 466 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,980 And they went from, hey, you're not 467 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,120 doing enough to protect users' data to, hey, yeah, 468 00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:47,980 go ahead and harvest some, like monitor everything, 469 00:21:48,110 --> 00:21:49,540 'cause we're gonna pass these laws anyway, 470 00:21:49,820 --> 00:21:51,840 like as long as you give that info to the government 471 00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:53,940 when we ask, collect all you want. 472 00:21:54,340 --> 00:21:56,480 And the TikTok ban is part of this as well, of course, 473 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,940 because of course our data is actually less safe now 474 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:00,940 that under this new ownership structure 475 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:01,980 than it was previously. 476 00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:05,180 - That will take us to the Kids Online Safety Act, 477 00:22:05,260 --> 00:22:06,380 which you just mentioned a minute ago. 478 00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:07,620 Like you said, our listeners are probably 479 00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:08,600 a little bit more familiar with, 480 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,400 'cause this one has been in the public eye a little bit. 481 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,800 It was originally introduced in 2022, 482 00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:19,160 And the original idea, again, on paper is that platforms like Facebook and YouTube should be 483 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,440 responsible for mitigating "potential harms." You mentioned that a minute ago too, to children 484 00:22:23,470 --> 00:22:27,720 who are using the service. I don't even want to say that language because that's not what it does. 485 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,060 That's not what it says and that's not what it does. What it says is that platforms need to 486 00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:37,880 censor more content and they need to censor more content in line with what the government perceives 487 00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:43,080 as harmful. I just want people to understand that because I think some people read it and they're 488 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,940 Well, the goal is, or you see these headlines, right? 489 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,240 Congress passes law to protect children. 490 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,240 That's not what these laws do. 491 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,460 These laws harm children. 492 00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:53,400 And we have research, actual scientific-based evidence 493 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,840 of researchers that have studied these things, 494 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,380 and we know that they actually harm children, 495 00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:00,920 especially LGBTQ and marginalized youth. 496 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,660 But that's the guys under which it was passed. 497 00:23:02,740 --> 00:23:04,540 - That is one of the questions I had written down. 498 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,080 You mentioned how these acts will do a lot of harm 499 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,020 to minorities, LGBTQ and these kind of people. 500 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,620 And so I think it's really easy for conservative folks to kind of, 501 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:16,800 they say like, oh, that's fear mongering or they may even agree with it 502 00:23:16,860 --> 00:23:18,260 because they don't agree with those viewpoints. 503 00:23:19,020 --> 00:23:22,300 But you've, you've pointed out, like this is a bipartisan thing. 504 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,720 What would you say are some of the risks that would get people on the more 505 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,620 conservative side of the aisle to realize like, no, this is bad for you too. 506 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:29,740 This is bad for everyone. 507 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:33,160 Part of project 2025 was about like censoring trans people off the internet. 508 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:37,260 Again, the Heritage Foundation has come out and said, here is how we plan to use 509 00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:39,700 COSA to remove abortion content online. 510 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,560 Here's how we plan to use COSA to censor, you know, LGBTQ trans content off the internet, 511 00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:47,480 all, all LGBTQ and women's rights content. 512 00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:48,900 They don't, they want to block that. 513 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,400 So they're open about it. 514 00:23:50,460 --> 00:23:51,140 They want that. 515 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,140 These Republicans, I've tried to explain to them like, well, what if a Democrats 516 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,300 empowered you guys had all this drama with Joe Biden saying that he was job owning over 517 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:00,920 COVID stuff and vaccines? 518 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:06,160 Like, don't you feel like I personally believe in vaccines, but I try to make this case to 519 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,600 them of like, well, would you want the government over sent? 520 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:11,780 I would argue that we don't want the government determining speech. 521 00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:13,460 We want to hear from actual experts online. 522 00:24:13,570 --> 00:24:16,000 We don't want government propaganda. 523 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,800 This is, again, what we always could accuse China and Russia 524 00:24:18,830 --> 00:24:20,320 and authoritarian states of doing. 525 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,740 So now we're trying to replicate that exact system. 526 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:25,680 That's what you guys were supposedly against. 527 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:27,300 They're not actually against it. 528 00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,420 Once they seize power, their whole thing is like, oh, well, 529 00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:32,660 OK, we're going to pass it under us. 530 00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:37,300 So they're going to bake into law where it's written in a way 531 00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:39,240 that will be used to censor all the content 532 00:24:39,290 --> 00:24:40,680 that they don't like, and then the left will never 533 00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:42,100 get power again, which they're probably 534 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,580 right actually about that. 535 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,380 If they can effectively control the internet 536 00:24:47,180 --> 00:24:49,640 and skew it so effectively to the right wing, which they have 537 00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:53,480 already done in some ways, the left won't ever get power again. 538 00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:55,580 So that's when you talk to these staffers, 539 00:24:55,780 --> 00:24:56,560 they're like, well, there's not going 540 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,860 to be another democratic presidency. 541 00:24:58,020 --> 00:25:00,560 We won't have to worry about it, which is bleak. 542 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,760 The Democrats are just happily going along with it 543 00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:06,120 because they also want to censor people. 544 00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:08,000 And they're like, yeah, we'll align with the Heritage 545 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,760 Foundation, because we hate when people criticize us online. 546 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,480 We hate when people say things that are anti-Israel. 547 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,620 I'm Chuck Schumer, and I hate that somebody says 548 00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:20,960 I shouldn't give $500 billion to whatever Israeli defense 549 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,400 fund thing or whatever. 550 00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:24,620 It's a lot of foreign policy criticism, 551 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,440 also a lot of criticism that the Democrats are not 552 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:28,600 fighting Trump hard enough. 553 00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:30,360 They just want to shut-- they just also 554 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:31,260 want control over speech. 555 00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:34,260 So actually, COSA has been very led by the Democrats. 556 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:37,000 And the Democrats, one other thing I'll say, 557 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,220 that's a little history for people to understand. 558 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,040 Obama was very protect. 559 00:25:42,260 --> 00:25:44,720 So Obama was fully in bed with the tech industry. 560 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,820 He had one of the last events that he had before leaving office 561 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,820 was called South by South Lawn, where 562 00:25:49,860 --> 00:25:53,480 he brought Uber, Facebook, all just the worst, 563 00:25:53,530 --> 00:25:55,800 like, biggest tech companies ever to come out 564 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,780 and have this celebration of what they've done 565 00:25:58,860 --> 00:26:01,000 and essentially get everyone in the White House jobs 566 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,600 in these major Amazon. 567 00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:05,280 Like all these big Microsoft big companies were there. 568 00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:06,400 I reported on it. 569 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,220 When Trump won, the tech lash started. 570 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,260 And that's when liberals started to realize, oh, wait, 571 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,100 maybe these platforms are not just all rainbows and sunshine. 572 00:26:16,340 --> 00:26:20,020 They're actually being used for fascism and bad things. 573 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,280 So that's when, again, we're going 574 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,060 to haul Mark Zuckerberg in front of Congress 575 00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:24,740 and really crack down on him, whatever. 576 00:26:25,420 --> 00:26:27,500 It's also when you saw the rise of the Black Lives Matter 577 00:26:27,580 --> 00:26:30,080 movement, Me Too movement, more and more social justice 578 00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:32,800 movements that were challenging democratic politicians 579 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:33,880 being progressive enough. 580 00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:35,320 And they hate that. 581 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:35,960 They don't want that. 582 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,580 They don't want any, they don't want anyone speaking out. 583 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,000 They want to do their corporate bullshit, whatever in peace. 584 00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:42,280 And they don't want any backlash. 585 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,740 And they want to seem like they're tough on big tech because they feel like 586 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,180 they weren't tough enough on big tech originally. 587 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,760 And these laws, even though they're actually a massive reward to big tech. 588 00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:55,260 And if you look at who backs this stuff, like big tech funds, like, I 589 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,900 mean, meta was one of the biggest lobbyists in DC last year and the year before. 590 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,800 They don't want to have this air of cracking down on big tech. 591 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,480 So that's why a lot of them sign onto it. 592 00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:06,960 You kind of covered a lot of the, so my question here was, I saw your recent 593 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,000 interview with Ari Cohen, which was great, by the way, he mentioned that the 594 00:27:10,020 --> 00:27:12,500 latest incarnation has no car routes for smaller platforms. 595 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,380 So again, my goal is I'm, I'm kind of trying to bring this home to viewers. 596 00:27:15,620 --> 00:27:18,200 You know, again, privacy guides, we have a forum, a mastodon instance, a 597 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,220 peer tube instance as a US organization. 598 00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:21,380 Exactly. 599 00:27:21,740 --> 00:27:23,800 We, we would be subject to COSA compliance. 600 00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:25,700 So I'll just say something too. 601 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,040 Like I think people, again, because there's this framing of cracking down on 602 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,180 big tech, people think like, oh, we're going to get that. 603 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,660 We're going to really stick it to meta. 604 00:27:35,780 --> 00:27:36,240 We're going to whatever. 605 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,700 And they don't actually realize how many smaller internet 606 00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:40,300 services they do rely on. 607 00:27:40,660 --> 00:27:41,740 Because when you think of social media, 608 00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:44,780 you think of Google and YouTube and stuff. 609 00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:47,360 And I understand not everyone's on Mastodon and PeerTube 610 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,160 and things like that. 611 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,100 Those would go away under these new laws. 612 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,840 But they might turn to a subreddit for information 613 00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:56,100 when they're looking about something. 614 00:27:56,220 --> 00:27:57,960 They might end up on a forum. 615 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:04,400 They might just be on a website that has a contributor model that doesn't necessarily 616 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,160 moderate so heavily, or they might want to participate in a campaign. 617 00:28:08,530 --> 00:28:13,600 You know, hey, let's all get, they're going to, I don't know, build a giant cell phone 618 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:14,620 tower in my backyard. 619 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,760 Let's all come together and do this social media campaign to prevent that. 620 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,960 You won't have that ability anymore, because all of your stuff will have to be approved 621 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:30,240 by some intermediary that is willing to take on the liability of your activism and your speech. 622 00:28:30,420 --> 00:28:36,240 So there won't be any internet activism online. There won't be a way to engage in that because 623 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,140 nobody's going to like, I mean, any organization that would take on any sort of mass liability for 624 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,940 that stuff would just be sued out of existence. So it's just, it really, there's such a mass 625 00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:49,720 chilling effect. And I think a lot of people don't realize actually how much, I mean, even platforms 626 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,880 like next door, right? 627 00:28:51,060 --> 00:28:55,060 Like you might not think of these when you're thinking of main social media, but 628 00:28:55,180 --> 00:28:59,100 like there's value in that people get about even like these marketplaces. 629 00:28:59,420 --> 00:29:03,200 Like there's just a lot of user generated content online that people don't 630 00:29:03,260 --> 00:29:06,620 think of as user generated content and that they engage in. 631 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:10,200 And messaging apps might be subject to this as well. 632 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,440 So it's just like, what about your WhatsApp group? 633 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,780 You know, like what is the threshold for that? 634 00:29:15,940 --> 00:29:17,120 Is that counting as social media? 635 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:25,480 probably like you won't have be able to mass distribute information really in the same way 636 00:29:25,620 --> 00:29:25,820 anymore. 637 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,740 One thing I want to add on to that that you I think the key there was mass distribute 638 00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:35,180 information because I it frustrates me but I see this a lot in the privacy community where 639 00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:38,880 you know for example Google says they're going to stop allowing side loading on their phones 640 00:29:39,380 --> 00:29:43,640 and there's so many people that are like oh well I'm super tech savvy I know how to get 641 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,860 around that. And it's like, that's really great. Most people don't. And so, you know, 642 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,860 there are always the people that like, Oh, well, I'll know how to roll my own messenger 643 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,020 app and still be able to use it. And it's like, cool, you and like six other people. 644 00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:59,840 And that's just not enough for the kind of mass communication that that you're talking 645 00:29:59,940 --> 00:30:03,020 about there. Yeah. Also, just like, you have to think of who 646 00:30:03,260 --> 00:30:08,600 who do we want to protect? We want to protect the most marginalized users. Like you don't 647 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:14,380 want to write regulation that censors or harms the people that rely on these platforms the 648 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:20,460 most activists, journalists, academics, like people speaking, challenging power. 649 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:27,020 Like again, this is what America always criticized other countries for criticized Russia and 650 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,540 China saying you guys don't have free and open internet. 651 00:30:29,660 --> 00:30:31,680 Oh, Iran doesn't have a free and open internet. 652 00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:36,679 You know, the government approves everything and, you know, LGBT, these people such and 653 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,840 such groups, marginalized people can't speak out. 654 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:40,760 Okay, we're about to do that here in America. 655 00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:43,460 Isn't that like what they literally spent like 20 years fear 656 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,240 mongering about these other countries, which by the way, I don't support those 657 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:47,620 other countries. 658 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,260 I think those are authoritarian versions of the internet that I don't want. 659 00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:54,340 Personally, I think to have the people that we currently have in power enacting 660 00:30:54,420 --> 00:30:57,140 that authoritarian version of the internet is extra scary. 661 00:30:57,300 --> 00:31:00,020 Cause I think there's a lot of people in power right now that don't value 662 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,840 civil liberties and don't value free expression. 663 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:02,840 I do agree. 664 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,760 And I really appreciate you pointing out that this is a bipartisan thing 665 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,120 because the privacy community is very diverse. 666 00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:10,160 Like we have people on the left, we have people on the right. 667 00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:13,120 And that's why I asked that question about like, you know, 668 00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:16,900 realizing that this opens the door that even if there is a power shift in the future, 669 00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:20,200 if the Democrats come into power in the future, now they're wielding this. 670 00:31:20,340 --> 00:31:23,900 And, you know, this really is a bipartisan, like everyone is impacted by this, 671 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,340 regardless of whether you buy into the narrative for that's being sold to us or not. 672 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,060 Which the far right doesn't think will happen. 673 00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:31,520 And I think they're just in delusion. 674 00:31:31,780 --> 00:31:34,760 Like I think some of them, and I talk to these people for work. 675 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,420 And I just-- the Democrats are also delusional. 676 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,240 I talked to Democrats last summer 677 00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:41,040 that were saying a lot of this out there, like, well, 678 00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:42,600 there's no way where Trump would win again. 679 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:43,800 And I would just say to both of them, 680 00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:44,760 you guys are both delusional. 681 00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:46,520 You know, we do have this system. 682 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,480 At some point, someone you don't like will be in power. 683 00:31:49,620 --> 00:31:52,340 And you should write laws so that when-- 684 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,760 no matter who's in power, your rights are protected. 685 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:57,760 Because when you write these laws-- 686 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,400 like, and I think the left and the right both 687 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,420 have become very anti-free speech. 688 00:32:01,620 --> 00:32:04,600 Like, leftists just want to censor people on the right. 689 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,540 people on the right want to just censor people on the left. 690 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,300 And you see very few organizations-- 691 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:10,520 this was criticism of ACLU and some other orgs-- 692 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,980 you see very few organizations, except FIRE, 693 00:32:12,980 --> 00:32:13,860 and I think some others, that have 694 00:32:13,940 --> 00:32:16,420 done a good job of really being bipartisan and being like, 695 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,840 we're standing up for free speech, even speech 696 00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:20,980 that we don't like, even speech that we find morally 697 00:32:21,340 --> 00:32:21,660 reprehensible. 698 00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:24,000 Like, we will defend speech. 699 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,600 Again, not if it's criminal, not if it's directly-- 700 00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:27,260 but you know what I mean. 701 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,280 Just protecting people's right to expression is very important. 702 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,520 And their right to privacy is very important. 703 00:32:32,660 --> 00:32:36,600 I think that's the other thing is, is like, we deserve anonymity on the internet. 704 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:42,740 I think it's very dystopian to have everything that we say online and read and consume and 705 00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:44,680 watch online tracked by the government. 706 00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:49,380 Imagine the worst person that you can imagine, imagine the worst person that you hate on 707 00:32:49,380 --> 00:32:51,460 the other political team becoming in power. 708 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:52,460 You know, is that what you want? 709 00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:55,960 No, you don't want them to have control over your information ecosystem. 710 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,300 We've covered all the questions that I had written down, but I always like to kind of 711 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:00,840 open the floor. 712 00:33:01,340 --> 00:33:04,800 anything that didn't come up that you're like, no, I really want to make sure we talk about 713 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:05,600 this before I go. 714 00:33:05,850 --> 00:33:07,520 Well, I just would tell people to get involved. 715 00:33:07,690 --> 00:33:12,460 Like I see a lot of nihilism online these days where people think, oh, it doesn't matter. 716 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,560 Oh, what can I do? 717 00:33:13,980 --> 00:33:18,160 Truly, I promise you, I've talking to people in these offices, these congressional offices, 718 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,680 it does make a difference. 719 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:20,860 Fight with them. 720 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,180 I've had people call and say, oh, and they said that, you know, the staffer dismissed me 721 00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:25,980 and they say, oh, there's not doing identity verification. 722 00:33:26,420 --> 00:33:27,040 Yes they are. 723 00:33:27,580 --> 00:33:29,040 Like, don't let them gaslight you. 724 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:30,660 Call them, make your voice heard. 725 00:33:30,820 --> 00:33:35,740 There's a really great website called bad internet bills.com, which fight for the future 726 00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:37,600 of a digital rights organization put together. 727 00:33:37,780 --> 00:33:38,460 It's so great. 728 00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:39,740 It makes it so easy. 729 00:33:40,030 --> 00:33:42,360 You can sign their form. 730 00:33:42,410 --> 00:33:43,620 You can send a letter to Congress. 731 00:33:43,690 --> 00:33:44,940 They tell you exactly what to say. 732 00:33:44,990 --> 00:33:47,120 They have overviews of all of these bad laws. 733 00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:51,380 I really encourage people to go to bad internet bills.com and just make their voices heard. 734 00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:54,640 As you mentioned, we actually were able to stave off COSA before. 735 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:55,640 We're able to stave off. 736 00:33:55,900 --> 00:34:00,020 to make it clear that we the public do not want this gross invasion of privacy. 737 00:34:00,820 --> 00:34:04,420 Yeah, we've been pushing that website a lot on our weekly live streams for sure. 738 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:05,100 It's great. 739 00:34:05,180 --> 00:34:07,460 And I've been seeing it pop up on a lot of what I was doing research for this. 740 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,179 I'm seeing it pop up in a lot of other places too, which makes me really happy. 741 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:11,020 It's so great. 742 00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:13,320 I'm so glad that they put it together because it's just very easy. 743 00:34:13,899 --> 00:34:14,919 Yeah, fight for the future rocks. 744 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:15,780 They're doing great work. 745 00:34:16,260 --> 00:34:17,580 Taylor, thank you so much for your time today. 746 00:34:17,820 --> 00:34:21,500 You are very active in continuing to discuss these kinds of issues and talk to 747 00:34:21,580 --> 00:34:22,300 experts about it. 748 00:34:22,399 --> 00:34:25,580 So where can viewers and listeners continue to follow your work on this stuff? 749 00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:30,360 Yeah, I'm on YouTube just at Taylor Lorenz. I have a series called Free Speech Friday, 750 00:34:30,490 --> 00:34:35,340 where every Friday I talk about these issues and starting live streaming soon too to talk about 751 00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:39,860 because there's just so many issues. I can barely one video a week is not enough. But yeah, 752 00:34:39,860 --> 00:34:43,620 you can find me on YouTube or my newsletter, which is just user mag.co. 753 00:34:44,190 --> 00:34:47,840 I think that's all we got. Thank you so much again for your time. We really appreciate it. 754 00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:52,280 We want to thank Taylor again for making time in her busy schedule to come and talk to us. 755 00:34:52,620 --> 00:34:55,780 This interview came together on very short notice due to the pace of current events, 756 00:34:55,899 --> 00:34:58,540 so we really appreciate her being flexible and lending her expertise. 757 00:34:59,060 --> 00:35:02,340 PrivacyGuides is an impartial, non-profit organization that is focused on building a 758 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,640 strong privacy advocacy community and delivering the best digital privacy and consumer technology 759 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,040 rights advice on the internet. If you want to support our mission, then you can make a direct 760 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,780 donation on our website, privacyguides.org. To make a donation, click the red heart icon 761 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,820 located in the top right corner of the page. You can contribute using standard fiat currency via 762 00:35:18,820 --> 00:35:21,240 via debit or credit card, or opt to donate anonymously 763 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,240 using Monero or with your favorite cryptocurrency. 764 00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:26,160 Becoming a paid member unlocks exclusive perks 765 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,200 like early access to video content and priority 766 00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:30,640 during the This Week in Privacy livestream Q&A. 767 00:35:31,340 --> 00:35:32,760 You'll also get a cool badge on your profile 768 00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:33,820 in the Privacy Guides forum 769 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,200 and the warm fuzzy feeling of supporting independent media. 770 00:35:36,660 --> 00:35:38,560 Thank you for watching and we will see you in the next video. 771 00:35:39,380 --> 00:35:40,480 (gentle music)