WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:35.948 --> 00:01:36.268 DUKE: All right. 00:01:36.278 --> 00:01:37.618 And what are we talking about today, Corey? 00:01:38.578 --> 00:01:39.068 CJ: All right, Duke. 00:01:39.068 --> 00:01:41.768 Today, we're going to talk about the evolution of the architect. 00:01:42.658 --> 00:01:46.428 DUKE: Yeah, actually kind of neat that we're almost at episode 100 00:01:46.468 --> 00:01:49.598 and we're going to talk about this and our first episode was , what 00:01:49.598 --> 00:01:50.588 is the ServiceNow Architect? 00:01:50.608 --> 00:01:52.398 So almost perfect timing. 00:01:53.168 --> 00:01:53.728 CJ: Yeah, I know. 00:01:53.728 --> 00:01:53.968 Right. 00:01:53.968 --> 00:01:56.368 Like things all are like times a flat circle, right? 00:01:56.368 --> 00:01:59.332 Everything comes back around and we're now we're, back here talking 00:01:59.332 --> 00:02:03.518 about, service now architecture and being a service now architect. 00:02:03.528 --> 00:02:07.238 And I mean, I think a lot has changed since that first episode, Duke. 00:02:07.518 --> 00:02:08.048 DUKE: Yeah. 00:02:08.135 --> 00:02:10.495 CJ: Like, I mean, the ecosystem isn't the same at all. 00:02:10.495 --> 00:02:12.875 There's things out there like generative AI. 00:02:12.875 --> 00:02:13.165 Right. 00:02:13.165 --> 00:02:15.545 And we're not going to touch a whole lot on that in this episode. 00:02:15.545 --> 00:02:17.185 I don't think when you never know with us, right? 00:02:17.185 --> 00:02:18.625 Like organically things pop up. 00:02:20.045 --> 00:02:22.952 DUKE: I mean, we probably could, but okay, with the gen AI 00:02:22.962 --> 00:02:24.122 thing, I think there's a lot of. 00:02:24.423 --> 00:02:25.973 I don't want to say hype, right? 00:02:26.433 --> 00:02:32.043 Because I haven't seen it enough to gauge its power, but I think there's so much 00:02:32.090 --> 00:02:38.990 general hype about AI in like the whole tech industry that I think people are 00:02:38.990 --> 00:02:43.140 thinking that AI is going to take more and more and more of the architect's 00:02:43.150 --> 00:02:45.250 work, like get the AI to do it, right? 00:02:45.250 --> 00:02:46.940 Get the AI to do what though? 00:02:47.795 --> 00:02:48.345 CJ: Yeah. 00:02:48.445 --> 00:02:51.565 Well, we'll get the AI to do what, but also what. 00:02:51.625 --> 00:02:53.255 Is available for us to do that. 00:02:53.255 --> 00:02:56.545 We aren't doing right now because we're doing things that the 00:02:56.555 --> 00:02:58.345 AI might be capable of doing. 00:02:58.452 --> 00:03:00.622 when I think about technology over time, right. 00:03:00.622 --> 00:03:04.105 There's more work always gets created by more technology. 00:03:04.145 --> 00:03:04.365 Right. 00:03:04.365 --> 00:03:04.535 And. 00:03:04.820 --> 00:03:06.920 Throughout the history of mankind, right? 00:03:06.920 --> 00:03:10.460 Whenever a new technological advancement happens, right? 00:03:10.460 --> 00:03:11.640 Like people always think that's it. 00:03:11.870 --> 00:03:13.940 That's the end of work for humankind, right? 00:03:13.940 --> 00:03:14.560 Never the case. 00:03:14.580 --> 00:03:17.472 What ends up happening is that there's more work created, by what 00:03:17.472 --> 00:03:19.207 that technology enabled, right? 00:03:19.207 --> 00:03:20.077 I mean, you think about. 00:03:20.212 --> 00:03:25.025 when people went from the horse to the car, there's an entire, I mean, 00:03:25.025 --> 00:03:29.725 just so much work got created by just having the ability to drive 00:03:29.735 --> 00:03:31.645 places instead of riding a horseback. 00:03:31.832 --> 00:03:36.208 So I look at Jenny, Jenny, I, it's kind of like the same thing, now that Jenny, I 00:03:36.208 --> 00:03:40.438 is there and we'll be able to do certain things that we don't really know, like to 00:03:40.438 --> 00:03:42.228 what extent is ever going to evolve, but. 00:03:42.595 --> 00:03:45.745 now that Jenny, I can write my code comments, for example, right? 00:03:45.745 --> 00:03:48.762 Like I can focus a little bit more on some other things that, don't take as 00:03:48.762 --> 00:03:50.312 much time as writing code comments. 00:03:51.812 --> 00:03:53.692 DUKE: I definitely get the code commenting. 00:03:54.188 --> 00:03:55.298 we just had that whole gen a. 00:03:55.298 --> 00:03:56.208 I episode, right? 00:03:58.028 --> 00:04:00.178 I don't want to get to like, do the whole episode over again. 00:04:00.758 --> 00:04:01.408 You know what I mean? 00:04:01.658 --> 00:04:07.998 But to me, it's just I feel like there's a, at least on the developer 00:04:07.998 --> 00:04:12.368 side, . There's this whole thing about, I mean, I know it's not everywhere, 00:04:12.368 --> 00:04:15.778 but there's certainly a few people that tend to think, ah, well, like 00:04:15.838 --> 00:04:17.655 Jenna, I could just do the dev for us. 00:04:19.155 --> 00:04:19.675 CJ: Yeah. 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:23.750 DUKE: And it's just like, no, no, it's not going to happen or at least 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:25.657 not, in the foreseeable future anyway. 00:04:26.442 --> 00:04:26.832 CJ: yeah. 00:04:26.862 --> 00:04:27.202 Right. 00:04:27.202 --> 00:04:29.672 Like I'm not expecting that to happen anytime soon. 00:04:29.945 --> 00:04:31.755 I think we're a long way from that to be quite honest. 00:04:31.785 --> 00:04:32.885 I do think though. 00:04:33.102 --> 00:04:34.822 Gen AI can be a great teacher, 00:04:35.527 --> 00:04:35.967 DUKE: Yeah, 00:04:36.822 --> 00:04:39.232 CJ: and I think if you look at it from that perspective, you can get 00:04:39.232 --> 00:04:40.592 a whole lot of value out of it. 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:41.230 DUKE: Okay. 00:04:41.230 --> 00:04:44.210 So maybe bringing it back to the architecture thing. 00:04:44.250 --> 00:04:46.690 I think, architects have way more to worry about. 00:04:46.710 --> 00:04:50.210 And in the case of Gen AI, it's not like, do we use it? 00:04:50.280 --> 00:04:51.430 Do we not use it? 00:04:51.940 --> 00:04:54.997 But in what context does it work? 00:04:54.997 --> 00:04:57.237 Well, And what do we have to be aware of? 00:04:57.247 --> 00:04:59.397 Like, it's not something you just turn on and get value. 00:04:59.623 --> 00:04:59.953 CJ: right. 00:04:59.973 --> 00:05:00.853 No, fair enough. 00:05:00.903 --> 00:05:06.963 , because also, you know, Jenny, I likes to hallucinate, right? 00:05:06.963 --> 00:05:07.593 and Jenny. 00:05:07.593 --> 00:05:09.763 I is not necessarily train a best practices, right? 00:05:09.763 --> 00:05:12.673 Like, I've seen some VR pop up, right? 00:05:12.673 --> 00:05:15.563 Like in some gr and some AI generated code, right? 00:05:15.593 --> 00:05:15.943 So. 00:05:16.448 --> 00:05:19.028 There, there's a little bit more there than that needs 00:05:19.028 --> 00:05:20.988 to be accounted for, right? 00:05:20.988 --> 00:05:24.568 And when you start thinking about it and start thinking about who gets to do what 00:05:24.568 --> 00:05:26.338 or how it gets to be done in the instance. 00:05:26.940 --> 00:05:31.110 DUKE: And plus there's just, Oh, John Dahl, shout out to John Dahl. 00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:34.543 He was writing this, great article on the limitations of it. 00:05:35.203 --> 00:05:38.123 And he talked about stuff like you've got to keep it trained. 00:05:38.167 --> 00:05:40.407 it's literally not push the button and it's trained. 00:05:41.112 --> 00:05:41.562 CJ: Right. 00:05:41.777 --> 00:05:45.557 DUKE: you've got to be careful on what you train it on and then maintain it. 00:05:46.217 --> 00:05:48.477 It's not like learn once and it's always good. 00:05:48.737 --> 00:05:52.607 there's always like a refinement and a fine tuning and adjustment. 00:05:52.773 --> 00:05:56.337 so it's not like the architect is the one who's going to have to understand 00:05:56.337 --> 00:06:00.097 the fundamentals of Gen AI if a company is going to use it and not just have 00:06:00.097 --> 00:06:01.707 some garbage in, garbage out system. 00:06:02.042 --> 00:06:04.532 CJ: Yeah, I mean, that's the architect's job though, right? 00:06:04.552 --> 00:06:07.232 The architect's job is to worry about instance. 00:06:07.462 --> 00:06:11.482 And when new technology comes on, that changes the way that the instance works. 00:06:11.582 --> 00:06:14.302 now it's the architect's job to understand, like, how that's going to 00:06:14.302 --> 00:06:18.640 change how things work and to be able to, Control it, I guess maybe it's the right 00:06:18.640 --> 00:06:22.000 word, but sometimes I don't , feel like that's the right sentiment, but control 00:06:22.010 --> 00:06:23.770 how it, works inside the instance, right? 00:06:23.770 --> 00:06:26.950 Because at the end of the day, you're the gatekeeper, you're 00:06:26.950 --> 00:06:28.340 the guardian of the instance. 00:06:28.385 --> 00:06:28.765 DUKE: the guard. 00:06:28.825 --> 00:06:29.555 I mean, absolutely. 00:06:29.555 --> 00:06:32.995 The guardian, you're the person who's going to be rewarded or punished based 00:06:32.995 --> 00:06:35.185 off of how this thing ends up working. 00:06:35.533 --> 00:06:37.103 CJ: even bigger than that Duke, right? 00:06:37.103 --> 00:06:39.443 Like you're the person who determines the business value of the 00:06:39.443 --> 00:06:41.263 ServiceNow instance in that company. 00:06:41.463 --> 00:06:46.753 you're the person who decides whether or not that investment will make a return. 00:06:47.290 --> 00:06:48.070 it's huge. 00:06:48.070 --> 00:06:51.417 I don't know if we always like take a step back and really think about the place that 00:06:51.417 --> 00:06:53.907 we're in as ServiceNow Architects, right? 00:06:53.907 --> 00:06:55.297 When we own that instance, right? 00:06:55.297 --> 00:06:57.847 When we have their guardian standing there at the, with the sword and the 00:06:57.847 --> 00:07:01.117 shield, you know, making sure that the thing goes right and that we stay 00:07:01.117 --> 00:07:05.078 on best practice and we, you know, deliver actual output, People spend a 00:07:05.078 --> 00:07:07.078 lot of money for service now, right? 00:07:07.078 --> 00:07:12.685 Companies do, and you know, they expect to give value that is more than the 00:07:12.685 --> 00:07:14.065 value of the money that they put in. 00:07:14.065 --> 00:07:17.468 And we're some of the folks who decide on whether or not that's going to be true. 00:07:17.923 --> 00:07:18.333 DUKE: Yeah. 00:07:18.457 --> 00:07:21.980 it's definitively not as easy as it was. 00:07:22.010 --> 00:07:23.400 If it ever was easy, right? 00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:26.230 It's, it's definitively harder than it used to be. 00:07:26.803 --> 00:07:30.277 I mean, just think, like, I build myself as a ServiceNow architect, but I'm 00:07:30.277 --> 00:07:32.267 like way behind on the Gen AI stuff. 00:07:32.542 --> 00:07:36.742 I hear word of mouth about ways in which it's weak and so how I have to factor 00:07:36.742 --> 00:07:38.392 for that just in case it comes up. 00:07:38.472 --> 00:07:40.612 But on top of that, I'm just thinking about every new 00:07:40.632 --> 00:07:42.122 thing they roll out like RPA. 00:07:42.122 --> 00:07:42.402 I 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:43.080 CJ: Yeah, 00:07:43.275 --> 00:07:45.245 DUKE: mean, there's people who have already worked for 00:07:45.255 --> 00:07:46.995 20 years in the RPA domain. 00:07:46.995 --> 00:07:50.655 And now it's like, okay, if I'm an architect for a, for a 00:07:50.655 --> 00:07:53.772 customer, I've got to find a way to come up to speed on that too. 00:07:54.227 --> 00:07:54.617 CJ: yeah. 00:07:54.713 --> 00:07:56.863 there's so much and on the platform. 00:07:56.863 --> 00:07:59.273 Now, there's no way you can ever be an expert in all of it. 00:07:59.273 --> 00:08:01.113 Like we used to back in the good old days. 00:08:01.113 --> 00:08:01.473 Right. 00:08:01.773 --> 00:08:05.293 We're like, I know the entire platform soup to nuts, right? 00:08:05.293 --> 00:08:06.753 Like, you know, you can't anymore. 00:08:06.853 --> 00:08:07.863 Like, it's just impossible. 00:08:14.990 --> 00:08:18.137 DUKE: the people that work for a company, And just say, okay, like, we're going 00:08:18.137 --> 00:08:22.117 to have to leave the actual execution of some of this stuff and all the 00:08:22.117 --> 00:08:27.327 knowledge of best practices and all that stuff to an SME, ITOM guy, you're 00:08:27.327 --> 00:08:31.247 the person who's going to tell us if my discovery is set up well or not, because 00:08:31.247 --> 00:08:35.107 I could be a supremely good ServiceNow architect, but , maybe discovery is 00:08:35.107 --> 00:08:36.297 the one tech I don't really know. 00:08:36.553 --> 00:08:37.583 CJ: Yeah, fair enough. 00:08:38.093 --> 00:08:38.393 Right. 00:08:38.433 --> 00:08:39.013 Um, I could 00:08:39.203 --> 00:08:42.453 DUKE: a bunch of rage people in my DMs, like, I can't be an 00:08:42.453 --> 00:08:44.063 architect without discovery! 00:08:44.083 --> 00:08:50.303 Yeah, yeah, 00:08:50.463 --> 00:08:53.697 CJ: And, I've got a, I've got a pretty good discovery, experience. 00:08:53.697 --> 00:08:54.897 I won't get those raised DMS. 00:08:54.970 --> 00:08:58.427 but yeah, You can't learn everything. 00:08:58.427 --> 00:08:59.437 You can't know everything. 00:08:59.437 --> 00:09:03.567 I think maybe, you know, the architect's job, I think maybe as it's evolved 00:09:03.567 --> 00:09:08.554 over time is, taking a progressively, , larger step back from the lens 00:09:08.554 --> 00:09:10.014 that you used to view the instance, 00:09:10.247 --> 00:09:12.330 DUKE: I agree at least I think about that a lot. 00:09:12.330 --> 00:09:15.660 I'm like, I wonder if there's a case to just have the architect be kind of like, 00:09:15.774 --> 00:09:21.874 how do we ensure that this is good for the platform and scalable and maintainable 00:09:21.924 --> 00:09:24.214 all the, as Carleen says, all the ables. 00:09:24.804 --> 00:09:25.454 CJ: All the ables. 00:09:25.700 --> 00:09:28.035 DUKE: so if someone comes in, you're going to deploy, Some kind 00:09:28.035 --> 00:09:29.755 of financial services module, right? 00:09:30.425 --> 00:09:33.805 And maybe it's new, maybe it's old, but the key is, I don't 00:09:33.805 --> 00:09:35.075 know anything about this process. 00:09:35.225 --> 00:09:39.149 And so I'm going to have to trust that the SME knows what you're talking 00:09:39.149 --> 00:09:43.585 about, but no matter what they build, it must be testable and upgradable, 00:09:43.755 --> 00:09:44.135 CJ: Right. 00:09:44.465 --> 00:09:46.015 DUKE: And rational. 00:09:46.015 --> 00:09:50.302 So maybe the architect is somebody who ensures that, there's, the 00:09:50.302 --> 00:09:51.762 documentation thing, right? 00:09:52.422 --> 00:09:52.692 CJ: Yeah. 00:09:52.932 --> 00:09:56.382 DUKE: Make sure that they have documentation that I can understand. 00:09:56.632 --> 00:09:59.472 Number two, make sure that there's ways to test this thing. 00:09:59.882 --> 00:10:04.282 Number three, make sure it's got some instant scan stuff built into it. 00:10:05.072 --> 00:10:06.542 CJ: Yes, right. 00:10:06.612 --> 00:10:06.672 Silence. 00:10:06.752 --> 00:10:08.652 DUKE: does it make our security stuff go bonkers? 00:10:08.732 --> 00:10:11.942 And so maybe taking all the platform tools that have 00:10:12.042 --> 00:10:14.377 manifested over the past few years. 00:10:14.837 --> 00:10:19.184 And just applying them to solutions that a non architect or a sub 00:10:19.184 --> 00:10:23.354 architect, or some kind of domain specific expert is building. 00:10:24.009 --> 00:10:26.199 CJ: Yeah, you're going to create better processes, right? 00:10:26.272 --> 00:10:30.535 In which everything else funnels through, and using the tools the service now 00:10:30.535 --> 00:10:32.412 has built progressively over the last. 00:10:32.735 --> 00:10:36.485 several years, To make that job easier because the platform, while 00:10:36.485 --> 00:10:39.799 they've been building those tools to make the job easier and better to 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.259 maintain, they've also been building and making the platform wider. 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:44.759 So you've got more to maintain. 00:10:45.019 --> 00:10:45.289 Right? 00:10:45.289 --> 00:10:49.869 And so I think, as an architect now you can no longer afford to ignore 00:10:50.079 --> 00:10:54.525 the tools in the instance if you want to manage it successfully. 00:10:54.571 --> 00:10:55.349 And effectively. 00:10:56.074 --> 00:10:57.034 DUKE: totally agree. 00:10:57.097 --> 00:11:00.027 and it's because I just, I just don't hear people talk about like instance 00:11:00.037 --> 00:11:02.907 scan upgrade center all that much. 00:11:03.152 --> 00:11:06.292 CJ: we've got a couple of folks in our network, And it's the same folks, right? 00:11:06.342 --> 00:11:10.232 1 or 2, 3 people, who talk about it but not nearly to the extent that 00:11:10.232 --> 00:11:13.772 I would expect and those couple of folks can't carry that entire, 00:11:13.802 --> 00:11:15.132 portion of the instance, right? 00:11:15.132 --> 00:11:18.699 Like, I do think that , we need , more voices out there who 00:11:18.699 --> 00:11:20.812 are really, evangelism aside. 00:11:21.042 --> 00:11:25.352 I think you can't really do this job effectively in a, a large instance, 00:11:25.472 --> 00:11:27.237 unless you're using these tools. 00:11:27.597 --> 00:11:28.657 how can, you know, 00:11:29.059 --> 00:11:29.459 DUKE: Yeah. 00:11:29.644 --> 00:11:32.340 CJ: so I, yeah, I just really do think that, we're doing 00:11:32.340 --> 00:11:34.600 ourselves a disservice and we're doing the instance of the service. 00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:38.333 If we're not using some of those things, like was it the admin dashboard, 00:11:38.333 --> 00:11:42.773 that we talked about a few episodes ago, Duke, um, what is the thing 00:11:42.848 --> 00:11:43.168 DUKE: Yeah. 00:11:43.168 --> 00:11:43.418 Yeah. 00:11:43.418 --> 00:11:43.928 The admin. 00:11:43.998 --> 00:11:44.358 Uh, 00:11:44.873 --> 00:11:46.183 CJ: It's admin dashboard, right? 00:11:46.248 --> 00:11:46.938 DUKE: yeah. 00:11:47.018 --> 00:11:47.498 Yeah. 00:11:47.803 --> 00:11:48.993 CJ: I think it's called something else. 00:11:49.043 --> 00:11:49.363 I feel 00:11:49.468 --> 00:11:51.521 DUKE: No, I mean, yeah, that's, Hmm. 00:11:51.771 --> 00:11:58.454 We're gonna have another episode on that maybe there's some like crazy talented 00:11:58.454 --> 00:12:02.654 people working on that, but it's all it's showing is plugins that I can't 00:12:02.654 --> 00:12:07.711 upgrade or can't activate, or grouping the plugins into like value propositions. 00:12:08.971 --> 00:12:13.431 And then that's strapped to a task management dashboard for me, and I'm just. 00:12:14.336 --> 00:12:17.086 If you think about all the administrative dashboards across the 00:12:17.086 --> 00:12:20.756 platform, security has one telling you all the different things on your 00:12:20.756 --> 00:12:23.486 instance that are bad, like bad, bad. 00:12:23.643 --> 00:12:26.559 And then you have all like administrative info. 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:30.303 You want to know how many admins do I have currently active? 00:12:30.303 --> 00:12:31.993 And when was the last time they logged in? 00:12:32.416 --> 00:12:37.116 what update sets are currently subprod instances? 00:12:37.116 --> 00:12:39.446 Do I have any changes coming for service now? 00:12:39.446 --> 00:12:41.576 Like, just think about all the potential. 00:12:41.576 --> 00:12:45.156 Stuff you could see on the admin dashboard and it's just I don't know. 00:12:45.156 --> 00:12:50.486 They don't they don't like it's not um, what am I trying to say? 00:12:50.486 --> 00:12:50.856 Corey? 00:12:51.576 --> 00:12:54.236 CJ: I think, I think you're trying to say, Duke, that there's more that can be done. 00:12:54.476 --> 00:12:54.916 Right? 00:12:55.136 --> 00:12:58.046 DUKE: And I'm not like, I'm not trying to pull anybody down about it. 00:12:58.046 --> 00:12:58.346 Right? 00:12:58.376 --> 00:13:02.549 But why invest into things that are already like, we already have 00:13:02.549 --> 00:13:04.959 dashboards that have my stuff on it. 00:13:05.116 --> 00:13:06.186 My tasks. 00:13:06.331 --> 00:13:07.441 my group's tasks. 00:13:07.441 --> 00:13:08.151 We've got all that. 00:13:08.263 --> 00:13:08.573 CJ: Yeah, 00:13:08.778 --> 00:13:11.478 DUKE: but what we don't have is like one singular interface that says, 00:13:11.478 --> 00:13:13.948 here's the stuff you should be worried about from a security perspective. 00:13:14.098 --> 00:13:15.318 A performance perspective. 00:13:15.508 --> 00:13:17.018 a upgrade perspective. 00:13:17.171 --> 00:13:19.821 instant scan perspective and just have that in one spot. 00:13:19.821 --> 00:13:21.951 Yeah, 00:13:22.076 --> 00:13:27.006 CJ: for somebody to bill, it really does, like, dovetail with everything 00:13:27.006 --> 00:13:28.346 we've been talking about right now. 00:13:28.546 --> 00:13:28.776 Right? 00:13:28.786 --> 00:13:30.936 Like, you know, the ability to manage the instance. 00:13:30.936 --> 00:13:34.556 That's what the architect's role has evolved to write the ability to manage 00:13:34.556 --> 00:13:39.103 the instance in terms of how you implement, Service now, essentially, 00:13:39.538 --> 00:13:42.808 DUKE: because we're like, mean, some of us have been blessed to have 00:13:42.808 --> 00:13:44.338 been at this a long time and just. 00:13:44.589 --> 00:13:47.749 like me, I learned a teeny tiny bit over a very, very long time. 00:13:47.769 --> 00:13:48.839 I'm not special. 00:13:49.139 --> 00:13:50.229 I'm not smart. 00:13:50.599 --> 00:13:53.529 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not genius smart, right? 00:13:53.529 --> 00:13:54.779 Like I'm no Mark Rothoff. 00:13:55.049 --> 00:13:56.799 I'm not a Corey Wesley. 00:13:57.019 --> 00:13:58.319 I'm not a Nathan's birth. 00:13:58.529 --> 00:14:03.239 You know, um, I'm just some regular old schmo that, that just did 00:14:03.239 --> 00:14:04.789 a little bit over a long time. 00:14:04.936 --> 00:14:10.073 if I had to come in now, I would be so out of my league in the architecture sense. 00:14:11.203 --> 00:14:11.733 CJ: man, you 00:14:11.808 --> 00:14:13.678 DUKE: what is this, like, is this a good idea or not? 00:14:13.688 --> 00:14:16.628 The only thing I'd have is just another rant about documentation, 00:14:16.718 --> 00:14:17.888 which we can totally do right now. 00:14:18.378 --> 00:14:18.748 But, 00:14:20.223 --> 00:14:22.493 CJ: I'll tell you what you got that we did that that I think is 00:14:23.023 --> 00:14:24.163 one of your superpowers, right? 00:14:24.163 --> 00:14:25.463 Is that you outwork everybody. 00:14:26.328 --> 00:14:30.518 DUKE: uh, I'm glad it looks like that. 00:14:33.828 --> 00:14:34.238 Oh, 00:14:34.383 --> 00:14:35.473 CJ: this is what you go with it. 00:14:35.483 --> 00:14:36.413 Just go with it. 00:14:36.718 --> 00:14:37.968 DUKE: I'm trying to get at is. 00:14:38.061 --> 00:14:43.344 I would love to have that admin homepage the way I want it because then you 00:14:43.344 --> 00:14:46.884 could, take somebody from any level and just like, Hey, you're the architect. 00:14:46.914 --> 00:14:50.034 Now, here's a dashboard for you with architectural stuff. 00:14:50.034 --> 00:14:50.744 You might be interested in. 00:14:50.754 --> 00:14:53.004 They'd be like, but I, but I, but I, Oh, well, okay. 00:14:53.004 --> 00:14:54.184 Well, what about the security stuff? 00:14:54.234 --> 00:14:55.524 Let's take that on first. 00:14:55.934 --> 00:14:59.344 Now I even have some like hooks I can use to research. 00:14:59.666 --> 00:15:00.156 You know what I mean? 00:15:00.611 --> 00:15:01.091 CJ: right. 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.549 DUKE: or upgrade center is saying, Hey, on your next upgrade, just FYI, you're 00:15:04.549 --> 00:15:06.809 going to have like 85, 000 collisions. 00:15:07.629 --> 00:15:08.029 What? 00:15:08.289 --> 00:15:08.999 What's the collision? 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:09.829 That sounds awful. 00:15:09.859 --> 00:15:10.789 Well, it is awful. 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:15.649 Okay, maybe we parse it down to 5, 000, but , then I'm forced to learn right then, 00:15:15.649 --> 00:15:17.566 right there, what is a collision even? 00:15:18.326 --> 00:15:19.236 Why is it bad? 00:15:20.043 --> 00:15:21.693 do I stop it from happening in the future? 00:15:22.064 --> 00:15:25.534 CJ: I don't know enough about Gen AI to know how it works 00:15:25.534 --> 00:15:26.964 in the instance around this. 00:15:26.964 --> 00:15:30.978 Like is Gen AI hanging out, like Clippy, you know what I mean? 00:15:30.978 --> 00:15:32.328 It's like, what is the collision? 00:15:32.328 --> 00:15:33.438 I'm glad you asked. 00:15:33.438 --> 00:15:36.808 You know what I mean? 00:15:36.818 --> 00:15:39.284 It's like, you know, you pop over there and it's like, Would you like to 00:15:39.284 --> 00:15:41.004 know about this problem record today? 00:15:41.214 --> 00:15:41.474 Right? 00:15:41.614 --> 00:15:43.714 You know, I feel like that's coming, right? 00:15:43.764 --> 00:15:45.074 And I think it's going to be great. 00:15:45.599 --> 00:15:49.299 DUKE: yeah, we, we said that on the Gen AI episode 2, which we're gonna 00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:52.299 put in the, there's gonna be so many episodes in the description below. 00:15:53.989 --> 00:15:56.939 If we'd only get paid a quarter for every episode we listed in the description 00:15:56.964 --> 00:15:57.594 CJ: I know, right? 00:15:57.604 --> 00:15:58.814 If only he got paid anyway. 00:16:03.079 --> 00:16:05.809 DUKE: What else keeps you up at night, architecture wise? 00:16:06.284 --> 00:16:06.844 , CJ: data. 00:16:07.464 --> 00:16:08.794 Data keeps me up at night. 00:16:08.994 --> 00:16:11.154 , 10 years ago service now. 00:16:11.574 --> 00:16:12.884 Bear with me on this, right? 00:16:12.884 --> 00:16:17.154 Like, so service now has always been a platform that has done way 00:16:17.154 --> 00:16:19.154 more than it says on a 10, right? 00:16:19.154 --> 00:16:19.524 Like, it's 00:16:19.669 --> 00:16:20.219 DUKE: the tin. 00:16:25.069 --> 00:16:25.929 Okay, go ahead, Zork. 00:16:28.694 --> 00:16:28.954 CJ: Right. 00:16:28.954 --> 00:16:30.844 But this build is an ITSM platform. 00:16:30.844 --> 00:16:31.134 Right. 00:16:31.174 --> 00:16:35.571 And the first thing I did when we got it, when I was a customer, it started 00:16:35.571 --> 00:16:37.191 doing other stuff with it, right? 00:16:37.211 --> 00:16:41.511 Like the first thing I did was say, yeah, ITSM is great, but I got these 00:16:41.511 --> 00:16:44.611 business processes over here that this thing will be perfect for, right. 00:16:44.611 --> 00:16:46.741 So it was always outworked itself. 00:16:46.864 --> 00:16:49.914 And what that means is that it's, it's been a platform that's 00:16:49.914 --> 00:16:54.844 accumulated a lot of data now, maybe not as much then as it does now. 00:16:54.844 --> 00:17:00.054 And probably not as much data that matters then as it does now, but 00:17:00.224 --> 00:17:05.554 now 10 years later, this thing is a repository of just stuff that you 00:17:05.554 --> 00:17:07.184 probably don't want to let leak out. 00:17:07.849 --> 00:17:12.369 And how you avoid that keeps me up at night. 00:17:12.409 --> 00:17:13.809 Like who has access to it? 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:15.949 Not, and this is not just external threat actors. 00:17:15.949 --> 00:17:16.219 Right. 00:17:16.499 --> 00:17:20.819 I think about like, who has the right roles and permissions to access the 00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:23.819 things that only they should see and not the things that they shouldn't. 00:17:24.066 --> 00:17:29.846 you know, who has the ability to actually exfiltrate data from the platform through 00:17:29.846 --> 00:17:35.036 like, I don't know, exporting through XML or or Excel spreadsheets, whatever. 00:17:35.036 --> 00:17:35.235 Right. 00:17:35.263 --> 00:17:39.239 there's a lot of different aspects to this, when I consider my responsibility 00:17:39.239 --> 00:17:43.039 to the business and the businesses data and how that could compromise, 00:17:43.099 --> 00:17:45.419 you know, operations and it's 00:17:45.549 --> 00:17:45.959 DUKE: Yeah. 00:17:46.189 --> 00:17:46.469 Oh, 00:17:47.199 --> 00:17:48.119 CJ: And so that's. 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:48.189 Right. 00:17:48.204 --> 00:17:50.812 Yeah, 00:17:52.003 --> 00:17:54.719 DUKE: integration that required user sync. 00:17:56.009 --> 00:17:59.829 And somebody just exported the user table and like sent it to their vendor. 00:17:59.829 --> 00:18:02.979 It's, uh. 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:04.459 That's not something you want to do. 00:18:05.584 --> 00:18:06.674 CJ: no, no, not at all. 00:18:06.684 --> 00:18:07.024 Right? 00:18:07.111 --> 00:18:10.181 even service now took a different stance on this over time. 00:18:10.181 --> 00:18:10.411 Right? 00:18:10.411 --> 00:18:14.221 Like, and so when you look at your, um, your subscription, reports, right. 00:18:14.221 --> 00:18:15.381 It used to have the names in it. 00:18:15.381 --> 00:18:16.476 Now it's got CIS IDs. 00:18:17.166 --> 00:18:17.456 Right. 00:18:17.466 --> 00:18:17.786 DUKE: cute. 00:18:17.856 --> 00:18:18.216 Yeah. 00:18:18.296 --> 00:18:19.036 CJ: yeah, right. 00:18:19.076 --> 00:18:22.496 Like, so, you know, take a little bit of that PII out of there. 00:18:22.496 --> 00:18:25.456 We don't want want to be sending back and forth, you know, the entire 00:18:25.456 --> 00:18:28.349 list of users that you have in your company, especially that not the 00:18:28.349 --> 00:18:29.989 entire list of privileged users. 00:18:30.594 --> 00:18:34.221 . Because that, subscription report is going to show who has admin access. 00:18:34.331 --> 00:18:37.828 it's things like that, that, there's been a shift over time, 00:18:37.851 --> 00:18:41.344 as more and more companies are solely exist inside of computers. 00:18:41.344 --> 00:18:41.574 Right. 00:18:41.574 --> 00:18:44.624 And, , I think, , was Mark injuries and who's a software is eating the world. 00:18:44.624 --> 00:18:44.884 Right. 00:18:44.884 --> 00:18:48.214 , so, any company you have is, is now a software company, . If 00:18:48.214 --> 00:18:48.894 you're doing it right. 00:18:49.539 --> 00:18:56.529 , and so as that shift has happened, , we're all tasked with safeguarding, , all of 00:18:56.729 --> 00:18:59.099 your company, which now exists digitally, 00:18:59.399 --> 00:18:59.799 DUKE: Yeah. 00:18:59.929 --> 00:19:02.379 it goes so far beyond just simple ACLs. 00:19:02.589 --> 00:19:04.299 Which are hard enough, which are hard enough. 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.726 Then you deal with like encryption and newsflash, there's more 00:19:07.726 --> 00:19:08.506 than one flavor of encryption. 00:19:09.099 --> 00:19:12.199 and like, you've just got to, you've just got to know this stuff. 00:19:12.339 --> 00:19:14.169 or know about its existence. 00:19:14.433 --> 00:19:14.973 CJ: Yeah. 00:19:15.013 --> 00:19:15.223 Yeah. 00:19:15.223 --> 00:19:16.393 That's like that one, 00:19:17.723 --> 00:19:20.333 DUKE: Listen, I don't do enough shouting out to people though, who deserve it. 00:19:20.503 --> 00:19:24.556 Cause I always disliked ACLs cause there's nothing visual about it. 00:19:24.606 --> 00:19:27.583 . Service now evolved from just lists and form based interfaces. 00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:30.929 And so it was really hard to figure out like, Hey, who can read this table? 00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:32.819 Like I had to find the record 00:19:33.186 --> 00:19:33.756 CJ: right? 00:19:33.916 --> 00:19:39.616 DUKE: or records in a list and which one, but application engine studio, have 00:19:39.616 --> 00:19:42.084 you taken a look at It's it like rolls 00:19:42.606 --> 00:19:46.786 CJ: I mean, to the extent that they exist normally, I know 00:19:46.786 --> 00:19:48.416 where you're going with this. 00:19:48.431 --> 00:19:51.683 DUKE: well, I mean, if you if you because application engine studio is 00:19:51.708 --> 00:19:56.534 another way to look at the composition of an app and it's slightly dialed 00:19:56.534 --> 00:20:02.004 down a bit, like, it's simplified, but it's interface to show you the roles 00:20:02.064 --> 00:20:04.288 and crud rights on all the tables. 00:20:04.471 --> 00:20:11.151 Is just, uh, it just, it's beautiful. 00:20:11.291 --> 00:20:15.128 It's just very organized, very, as is like, if you have a scoped app, 00:20:15.238 --> 00:20:19.233 it's just This is what it, and it only, it only breaks down from that if 00:20:19.233 --> 00:20:21.073 you start doing ACLs against fields. 00:20:21.073 --> 00:20:21.333 Right? 00:20:21.403 --> 00:20:21.633 But, 00:20:22.108 --> 00:20:22.798 CJ: Right. 00:20:22.813 --> 00:20:26.213 DUKE: if you're just doing tables, where's my create, read, update, 00:20:26.213 --> 00:20:27.783 delete, and what roles have what? 00:20:27.823 --> 00:20:30.876 It's just a graph of boxes and just checked every box for 00:20:30.876 --> 00:20:32.256 every role that has that right. 00:20:32.806 --> 00:20:33.566 It's beautiful. 00:20:33.996 --> 00:20:35.509 CJ: Yeah, no, you're right. 00:20:35.633 --> 00:20:35.813 all right. 00:20:35.863 --> 00:20:37.013 So this is 1 of those things, right? 00:20:37.023 --> 00:20:39.793 When you're in the system and you're just doing the stuff, right? 00:20:39.843 --> 00:20:41.973 Some of this stuff phase into the background, right? 00:20:41.973 --> 00:20:44.583 Like, I've, I was just building an app using AES, 00:20:44.643 --> 00:20:48.873 . A couple of weeks ago and yeah, it does do that night and it 00:20:48.913 --> 00:20:50.223 didn't even ping to me, right? 00:20:50.223 --> 00:20:53.453 Like that was significantly different than looking at it through the 00:20:53.453 --> 00:20:55.203 main interface and on the platform. 00:20:55.203 --> 00:20:56.793 But you're right, like it is. 00:20:56.823 --> 00:21:00.863 Easier as much more streamlined and much more transparent, which is great, 00:21:00.883 --> 00:21:05.913 ? We should always be looking for UI interfaces that are much more transparent 00:21:06.113 --> 00:21:09.283 to what's actually going on because they're a lot easier to manage. 00:21:09.428 --> 00:21:14.268 DUKE: it's so good for building data structure that I kind of 00:21:14.268 --> 00:21:15.768 forgot how we did it old school. 00:21:15.778 --> 00:21:18.828 Like I know we went to like tables and columns and we like manually 00:21:18.828 --> 00:21:22.794 created the rows for the fields and such, but it's just so easy in AES. 00:21:23.614 --> 00:21:24.724 But then you hit this brick wall. 00:21:24.724 --> 00:21:25.764 Cause it's like, I got the table. 00:21:25.764 --> 00:21:28.784 I got all like, I got all my five tables that I want and I've got all my forms 00:21:28.784 --> 00:21:30.574 and like, okay, let's go get to it. 00:21:31.734 --> 00:21:32.664 What do you mean go get to it? 00:21:32.794 --> 00:21:33.264 Oh no. 00:21:33.264 --> 00:21:37.774 Now it's back to old school to manually build out nav menus and modules. 00:21:39.479 --> 00:21:39.839 CJ: Yeah, 00:21:39.954 --> 00:21:42.274 DUKE: for whatever reason, AES doesn't do that. 00:21:42.729 --> 00:21:45.309 CJ: well, no, I, it, it did that for me, I think. 00:21:45.714 --> 00:21:47.904 DUKE: Doesn't it doesn't create the modules for you. 00:21:47.904 --> 00:21:48.624 You got to do that. 00:21:49.259 --> 00:21:50.489 CJ: Oh, well that sucks. 00:21:50.614 --> 00:21:52.814 DUKE: then I, then I pop open studio, right? 00:21:52.824 --> 00:21:55.274 There's studio and application engine studio. 00:21:55.274 --> 00:21:55.604 Right? 00:21:55.704 --> 00:21:57.359 CJ: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:57.869 No, you're right. 00:21:57.869 --> 00:21:59.669 I was in studio like, and that, 00:21:59.744 --> 00:21:59.974 DUKE: right? 00:22:00.354 --> 00:22:01.524 Which studio do you want? 00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:03.559 CJ: yeah. 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:04.789 That's not confusing at all. 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:06.679 Lemme, lemme ran on that one for a minute. 00:22:08.436 --> 00:22:12.966 , like who thought it was look, come on Studio and application engine studio. 00:22:12.966 --> 00:22:13.746 Like, let's come on. 00:22:13.751 --> 00:22:14.976 Can we do better than that? 00:22:15.656 --> 00:22:16.916 Like I call one. 00:22:18.146 --> 00:22:19.186 it when I'm workshop. 00:22:19.186 --> 00:22:19.676 I don't care. 00:22:20.161 --> 00:22:23.731 DUKE: well, like I, I like them both for different reasons. 00:22:23.871 --> 00:22:27.751 I, I do have to explain it to my coaching cohort quite a bit, like why 00:22:27.751 --> 00:22:30.071 studio and application engine studio. 00:22:30.071 --> 00:22:32.321 I'm like, okay, well with application engine studio, they're trying 00:22:32.321 --> 00:22:35.831 to dial down the skillset needed to build a tiny, simple app, 00:22:36.236 --> 00:22:36.796 CJ: Right. 00:22:36.911 --> 00:22:40.021 DUKE: so happens that that simplified interface is great for like. 00:22:40.326 --> 00:22:43.196 95 percent of the things that I would do anyway, 00:22:43.656 --> 00:22:44.376 CJ: Absolutely. 00:22:44.466 --> 00:22:48.786 DUKE: but studio, when it came out, had an entirely different user in mind. 00:22:48.786 --> 00:22:50.376 It was just like, I'm building an app. 00:22:50.376 --> 00:22:53.026 Like, just show me all the freaking pieces of the app. 00:22:53.566 --> 00:22:54.216 All of them. 00:22:54.591 --> 00:22:54.971 CJ: yeah. 00:22:55.301 --> 00:22:58.181 Like make this easy to link up source control. 00:22:58.181 --> 00:22:58.431 Right? 00:22:58.431 --> 00:22:59.141 Like boom, boom. 00:22:59.141 --> 00:22:59.411 Right? 00:22:59.411 --> 00:23:02.728 Like, you know, give me all of the various pieces of an app. 00:23:02.738 --> 00:23:04.178 And I totally agree with you. 00:23:04.178 --> 00:23:04.748 I love it. 00:23:04.748 --> 00:23:05.968 Then it's that cold search man. 00:23:05.968 --> 00:23:06.618 Cold search. 00:23:06.858 --> 00:23:07.518 I got cold. 00:23:07.518 --> 00:23:08.418 Search is amazing. 00:23:08.573 --> 00:23:08.823 DUKE: search. 00:23:08.823 --> 00:23:09.303 Yes. 00:23:10.168 --> 00:23:10.398 CJ: Right? 00:23:10.398 --> 00:23:11.458 Like, and there's a lot of right. 00:23:11.458 --> 00:23:14.048 There's a lot of external apps out there that you can use to actually 00:23:14.048 --> 00:23:15.748 do cold searching your instance too. 00:23:15.748 --> 00:23:17.018 But 1 of the. 00:23:17.018 --> 00:23:17.102 Yeah. 00:23:17.183 --> 00:23:19.483 Tips that I was just taught recently, right? 00:23:19.483 --> 00:23:24.353 Is that, you can open studio and you can use code search. 00:23:24.583 --> 00:23:28.403 Against anything in the instance, it doesn't have to be in that 00:23:28.413 --> 00:23:31.023 app you're working on and. 00:23:31.073 --> 00:23:31.482 DUKE: not know. 00:23:31.482 --> 00:23:33.614 It's not, it's not filtered to the 00:23:34.008 --> 00:23:34.588 CJ: No, no, no, no. 00:23:34.588 --> 00:23:35.738 You can pick different scope. 00:23:35.848 --> 00:23:36.618 You can pick global. 00:23:36.618 --> 00:23:38.178 You can pick any of the other scopes, right? 00:23:38.178 --> 00:23:39.368 And you could just do a search against them. 00:23:39.368 --> 00:23:40.348 It's great. 00:23:40.868 --> 00:23:41.568 It's great. 00:23:41.898 --> 00:23:44.778 And if you're looking for something, , as I was in a specific 00:23:44.778 --> 00:23:48.488 case, , that somebody had, written before me and that person was gone. 00:23:49.008 --> 00:23:52.198 It really helped me find like , where in the system was calling 00:23:52.198 --> 00:23:57.388 this scripting include because Duke, there was no documentation. 00:23:58.578 --> 00:24:00.028 DUKE: Can we, okay, that's a great segue. 00:24:00.068 --> 00:24:01.188 Can we talk about documentation? 00:24:04.138 --> 00:24:07.408 I just, I think, I think that horse is still moving. 00:24:07.788 --> 00:24:09.318 It needs another hit with the bat. 00:24:11.473 --> 00:24:14.363 CJ: Man, like, I talk about cold commenting, right? 00:24:14.373 --> 00:24:15.353 All the time with Jenny. 00:24:15.353 --> 00:24:17.783 I love to see you, Jenny. 00:24:17.783 --> 00:24:19.223 I evolve into it. 00:24:19.223 --> 00:24:22.183 Like my kick ass documentation partner. 00:24:22.964 --> 00:24:26.661 DUKE: when I look at how I develop a document, I, there's a lot of 00:24:26.661 --> 00:24:29.311 stuff in there where I'm like, why can't the robots do this? 00:24:29.424 --> 00:24:34.488 for example, like, I have sections in my documents, like, like, when 00:24:34.488 --> 00:24:37.968 I'm doing an architectural document for an app, I built, I have a section 00:24:37.968 --> 00:24:41.718 called data structure where I list out the tables and the columns and 00:24:41.938 --> 00:24:43.528 the properties of the columns and. 00:24:44.198 --> 00:24:44.718 You know what I mean? 00:24:44.718 --> 00:24:48.608 So I might have table one and it has a reference in it to table two. 00:24:48.978 --> 00:24:51.618 And so when I describe the reference, I actually like hyperlink 00:24:51.628 --> 00:24:53.468 within the document to table two. 00:24:54.493 --> 00:24:54.733 CJ: Makes 00:24:55.048 --> 00:24:57.738 DUKE: And that way, like when this thing gets 20 pages long. 00:24:58.133 --> 00:24:59.459 Nobody has to scroll. 00:24:59.469 --> 00:25:01.549 They could just, Oh, this references to there. 00:25:01.569 --> 00:25:02.599 I don't know about there. 00:25:02.739 --> 00:25:03.219 Let me click. 00:25:03.219 --> 00:25:03.969 And I go there 00:25:04.379 --> 00:25:05.364 CJ: So your doc is an app 00:25:05.849 --> 00:25:06.729 DUKE: basically. 00:25:06.789 --> 00:25:06.949 Yeah. 00:25:06.949 --> 00:25:07.739 And I'm just like, why? 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:13.889 Like, surely the thing could just output a word doc in nicely formatted ways. 00:25:13.889 --> 00:25:18.419 At least has the table and the columns and the fields and 00:25:18.419 --> 00:25:19.639 the properties of the fields. 00:25:19.889 --> 00:25:23.699 And then all somebody might have to do is fill in the intent of those things. 00:25:24.499 --> 00:25:27.859 So a human could understand them and then the one thing that the human must 00:25:27.869 --> 00:25:32.829 do all the time, I think, is to talk about, like, do an abstract of what the 00:25:32.899 --> 00:25:37.959 app is there to do and kind of log the decisions that were made along the way. 00:25:38.429 --> 00:25:41.933 Because as you all know, the app that somebody wants on day one is 00:25:42.453 --> 00:25:44.823 rarely the app they want on day 60. 00:25:45.738 --> 00:25:48.218 CJ: Yeah, yeah, that a great point. 00:25:48.218 --> 00:25:48.478 Right? 00:25:48.658 --> 00:25:52.758 And that, you know, that we've got an entire episode about requirements 00:25:52.758 --> 00:25:55.918 gathering and and specifically the 1 where I was, helping 00:25:55.918 --> 00:25:57.618 you with your coaching cohort. 00:25:57.638 --> 00:25:57.938 Right? 00:25:58.213 --> 00:25:59.043 DUKE: Yeah, yeah. 00:25:59.273 --> 00:25:59.573 CJ: Right. 00:25:59.573 --> 00:26:01.233 And towards the end of that up, right? 00:26:01.243 --> 00:26:04.513 Like there's a, there's a point in there where we pivot a little bit from 00:26:04.523 --> 00:26:08.113 basically what you thought you wanted to what I suggest that you could probably 00:26:08.123 --> 00:26:10.273 use that you thought was a better idea. 00:26:11.028 --> 00:26:11.298 DUKE: Yep. 00:26:11.545 --> 00:26:13.545 I do it with my coaching cohort all the time. 00:26:13.555 --> 00:26:15.745 They have to make their own capstone project. 00:26:16.435 --> 00:26:20.375 And it's always like the most common thing is. 00:26:21.425 --> 00:26:25.255 Here is the entire picture of what this process I picked look like. 00:26:25.405 --> 00:26:26.885 It's something they're familiar with, right? 00:26:26.885 --> 00:26:29.545 And my current coaching cohort, shout out to Kathy. 00:26:29.745 --> 00:26:32.075 She works in the mortgage industry and she's doing this whole 00:26:32.092 --> 00:26:34.312 how to close a mortgage deal. 00:26:34.352 --> 00:26:37.532 And it's just like crazy complex. 00:26:37.999 --> 00:26:41.609 But we make decisions to say, okay, we're going to reduce the scope, reduce the 00:26:41.619 --> 00:26:43.219 scope, reduce the scope, reduce the scope. 00:26:43.229 --> 00:26:46.039 So we have something now we're getting into like agile and 00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:47.619 minimal viable product discussions. 00:26:47.619 --> 00:26:47.899 Right. 00:26:47.909 --> 00:26:48.259 But 00:26:48.749 --> 00:26:49.229 CJ: startup. 00:26:49.429 --> 00:26:53.389 DUKE: yeah, but like the AI couldn't possibly look at the 00:26:53.389 --> 00:26:57.719 composition of your app and infer that you had de scoped stuff. 00:26:58.042 --> 00:26:58.672 CJ: Right, 00:26:59.002 --> 00:27:02.022 DUKE: So the, like at the end of the documentation and, those hard 00:27:02.032 --> 00:27:04.772 asses on the team that are like, well, I asked for it this way. 00:27:05.357 --> 00:27:07.737 You know, and it's like, where were you in all the meetings where we all 00:27:07.737 --> 00:27:11.567 agreed that we were de scoping that. 00:27:11.782 --> 00:27:12.142 CJ: right. 00:27:12.192 --> 00:27:12.732 Exactly. 00:27:12.732 --> 00:27:15.575 And, and it's important to know, like, you know, because not everyone's 00:27:15.575 --> 00:27:16.375 going to be in those meetings. 00:27:16.415 --> 00:27:17.495 Somebody might be out sick. 00:27:17.495 --> 00:27:18.475 Maybe they weren't invited. 00:27:18.675 --> 00:27:21.655 You should always only invite the people to the meetings who need to be there. 00:27:21.665 --> 00:27:22.955 Not more, not less. 00:27:22.955 --> 00:27:23.235 Right? 00:27:23.235 --> 00:27:24.455 Like, let's be clear on that. 00:27:24.635 --> 00:27:26.175 Hate meetings with too many people. 00:27:26.175 --> 00:27:27.605 I hate meetings in general. 00:27:27.785 --> 00:27:28.025 Right? 00:27:28.025 --> 00:27:32.475 So I would like to have them as concise as possible and only as many 00:27:32.475 --> 00:27:33.905 as are, as are absolutely needed. 00:27:33.905 --> 00:27:34.055 Yeah. 00:27:34.075 --> 00:27:37.265 That said, right, like when we make those decisions, it's important to 00:27:37.265 --> 00:27:41.412 understand, why they were made and who made them and record that so that it 00:27:41.412 --> 00:27:43.112 can be, , it could be, , reviewed later. 00:27:43.195 --> 00:27:46.015 one of the things that I, this is going to be interesting, right? 00:27:46.015 --> 00:27:50.685 Because my part time job is, you know, city council where the entirety 00:27:50.685 --> 00:27:52.015 of the job is doing meetings. 00:27:52.285 --> 00:27:54.155 Let me tell you what the difference is, right? 00:27:54.155 --> 00:27:55.605 Like Robert's rules of order. 00:27:57.665 --> 00:28:02.405 Like if every corporate meeting was run with Robert's rules, let me tell you how 00:28:02.405 --> 00:28:04.335 much more effective and efficient it be. 00:28:04.910 --> 00:28:09.320 An agenda that needs to go out X amount of days before the meeting starts. 00:28:09.320 --> 00:28:11.480 ? And you can only discuss what's on the agenda. 00:28:11.760 --> 00:28:13.580 ? Somebody's taking detailed meetings. 00:28:13.780 --> 00:28:14.670 I mean, minutes. 00:28:14.830 --> 00:28:18.680 ? So you can always refer back to those minutes can go into your documentation. 00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:21.460 ? Because they're the living, breathing kind of accounting of 00:28:21.460 --> 00:28:22.520 what happened in the meeting. 00:28:22.810 --> 00:28:24.110 All of these different things. 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:24.410 Right? 00:28:24.410 --> 00:28:24.520 And. 00:28:24.915 --> 00:28:27.055 DUKE: it's 1 of the pillars of Western civilization, buddy. 00:28:29.305 --> 00:28:30.335 Robert's drills for 00:28:32.120 --> 00:28:36.810 CJ: yeah, I mean, you know, and maybe did this, did, did you invent those Robert the 00:28:36.925 --> 00:28:37.175 DUKE: me. 00:28:37.175 --> 00:28:38.385 No, it was a different Robert. 00:28:38.385 --> 00:28:38.625 Yeah. 00:28:39.005 --> 00:28:39.615 Hold on a second. 00:28:39.615 --> 00:28:40.675 I got to build an affiliate link. 00:28:40.695 --> 00:28:42.665 So we're gonna put a link in the description below for that. 00:28:45.405 --> 00:28:46.015 Oh, man. 00:28:46.035 --> 00:28:46.255 Okay. 00:28:46.255 --> 00:28:47.655 We're at 32 minutes. 00:28:48.430 --> 00:28:48.770 CJ: No, man. 00:28:48.780 --> 00:28:49.450 How'd we get there? 00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:50.490 DUKE: I don't know. 00:28:50.810 --> 00:28:51.480 It's good though. 00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:53.020 I'm not going to do much editing on this one at all. 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:53.910 CJ: Yeah. 00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:54.160 Oh. 00:28:55.340 --> 00:29:01.480 DUKE: so we covered what we covered like data and roles and all the 00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:03.580 different administrative interfaces. 00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:08.487 And we talked about documentation and we talked about how do I make the 00:29:08.487 --> 00:29:11.607 platform such that I plug in SMEs. 00:29:11.870 --> 00:29:12.290 CJ: Yeah, 00:29:12.465 --> 00:29:15.775 DUKE: You know, and, and make sure that I can trust and verify what they put in. 00:29:15.775 --> 00:29:18.325 I feel like we're missing a ton of stuff. 00:29:19.080 --> 00:29:21.480 CJ: I'll do, I mean, there's a ton we're missing here, , but, 00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:23.040 , we've gotten this far with it. 00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:26.910 And I think this might, there might be a part to this episode at some point, right? 00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:29.920 Like, you know, in terms of what's changed, , there's 1 last thing we 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.130 had on our list that I really do want to, , cover we close out and , it's a 00:29:33.130 --> 00:29:35.940 question that you said, actually, that , you've been seeing a lot and you've 00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:39.670 been getting a lot from folks, , and the ecosystem is, do I need to know 00:29:39.670 --> 00:29:41.530 how to code to be in the ecosystem? 00:29:41.879 --> 00:29:42.149 DUKE: Yeah. 00:29:42.149 --> 00:29:46.162 I mean, well, gosh, there's so many jobs in ecosystem and we will have 00:29:46.162 --> 00:29:50.642 links to every episode that we've done on them in the description below. 00:29:51.222 --> 00:29:54.922 So some of them, no, like I don't think you need to like learn to code to be 00:29:54.922 --> 00:30:00.722 a BA, but I would say like everything, admin implementation and architects, 00:30:01.052 --> 00:30:05.312 like absolutely, I don't know how you can't, I don't know how you can't. 00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:06.810 Even for admin, right? 00:30:06.860 --> 00:30:08.400 , what do you think an admin is going to do? 00:30:08.847 --> 00:30:11.537 Are they going to be first level support for ServiceNow problems? 00:30:11.937 --> 00:30:12.657 Probably. 00:30:12.747 --> 00:30:14.387 What if the problem is in a business rule? 00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.940 What if the problem is in a notification that is running a mail script? 00:30:18.710 --> 00:30:19.100 CJ: Yeah. 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:20.730 DUKE: What if the problem is in a client script? 00:30:20.730 --> 00:30:23.810 Like, all the config things that we, all the config tools have 00:30:23.810 --> 00:30:25.860 this JavaScript block in it. 00:30:26.104 --> 00:30:26.404 CJ: yeah. 00:30:26.404 --> 00:30:28.384 No, you're, you're absolutely right. 00:30:28.734 --> 00:30:29.064 , I 00:30:29.134 --> 00:30:31.084 DUKE: and then especially the higher you go, like up into 00:30:31.084 --> 00:30:32.624 architecture, forget about it. 00:30:32.810 --> 00:30:35.020 I'm not saying you have to be like a pro co, like you have to 00:30:35.030 --> 00:30:40.335 be like a Professional JavaScript developer, but you definitely need 00:30:40.345 --> 00:30:43.445 to like, how would you know if somebody gave you shit code or not? 00:30:43.830 --> 00:30:46.480 CJ: yeah, I mean, you wouldn't write, , if you're not able to co 00:30:46.910 --> 00:30:52.000 and I think really , the best thing that happened to me as I was getting 00:30:52.230 --> 00:30:54.010 on boarded onto the system, right? 00:30:54.010 --> 00:30:57.380 Is that the folks who were training me on how to do it. 00:30:57.615 --> 00:30:58.845 Really leaned into. 00:30:58.855 --> 00:31:01.395 You really need to learn how to do JavaScript, right? 00:31:01.395 --> 00:31:05.345 Like I had, I was not a programmer when I got into the service ecosystem, right? 00:31:05.565 --> 00:31:08.395 I've done some, uh, yeah, I've done a lot of like command 00:31:08.395 --> 00:31:09.745 line scripting and DOS, right? 00:31:09.755 --> 00:31:11.115 Like that was, that's where I could work. 00:31:11.165 --> 00:31:14.892 . But, you know, in terms of anything, JavaScript, python, anything like 00:31:14.892 --> 00:31:16.332 that, like real coding languages. 00:31:16.342 --> 00:31:16.642 No. 00:31:16.922 --> 00:31:19.582 , but yeah I learned over time, right? 00:31:19.592 --> 00:31:22.312 and I was valuable while I was learning. 00:31:22.312 --> 00:31:26.122 That's the point that I'm actually, that took the long way around to get to right. 00:31:26.122 --> 00:31:30.092 But I was valuable , while I was learning and I'm not a professional 00:31:30.092 --> 00:31:31.622 JavaScript developer now, right? 00:31:31.622 --> 00:31:34.752 Like I'm pretty good at JavaScript in service now. 00:31:34.912 --> 00:31:39.422 . You can be valuable as you're learning how to code and service now, as 00:31:39.422 --> 00:31:42.582 you're learning javascript, as you're learning, , glide script, right? 00:31:42.582 --> 00:31:46.912 Like you can be pretty valuable and service now, just, , while 00:31:46.912 --> 00:31:50.142 learning javascript snippets, right? 00:31:50.142 --> 00:31:53.322 Like, you know, how do you find, like, how many characters are in 00:31:53.322 --> 00:31:55.002 a, , and in a subject line, right? 00:31:55.002 --> 00:31:56.522 Like, you know, that learning that, uh, 00:31:57.347 --> 00:31:59.977 DUKE: I've been totally stealing that , for my coaching course, or just in 00:31:59.977 --> 00:32:03.997 the JavaScript part now, and it just, I took totally, like, I feel like I 00:32:03.997 --> 00:32:05.397 open my mouth and then you fall out. 00:32:05.447 --> 00:32:07.357 , you're not training to be a JavaScript developer. 00:32:07.357 --> 00:32:09.467 You're not even trained to be a junior JavaScript developer. 00:32:10.157 --> 00:32:14.477 You're training to know enough, string manipulation, arithmetic, logic. 00:32:15.132 --> 00:32:16.392 And that's it. 00:32:16.852 --> 00:32:19.192 CJ: Loops and loops, right? 00:32:19.232 --> 00:32:19.932 Like, if you know, 00:32:20.272 --> 00:32:23.722 DUKE: That's why I put that in logic, like conditionals and loops is yeah. 00:32:23.919 --> 00:32:24.109 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:24.109 --> 00:32:25.499 But if you know those things, right? 00:32:25.499 --> 00:32:27.609 Like you could, I mean, you're 80 percent of the way there. 00:32:27.609 --> 00:32:28.499 You're going to be good. 00:32:28.745 --> 00:32:28.905 You 00:32:28.935 --> 00:32:30.315 DUKE: just practice from that point on. 00:32:30.315 --> 00:32:30.555 Right. 00:32:30.675 --> 00:32:33.285 CJ: it is just practice from that point on it and applying it. 00:32:33.595 --> 00:32:36.785 And as you start to apply things, you'll find gaps and then 00:32:36.785 --> 00:32:38.145 you'll go and Google those gaps. 00:32:38.695 --> 00:32:38.975 Right? 00:32:38.975 --> 00:32:40.675 And then you won't have those gaps anymore. 00:32:40.675 --> 00:32:41.475 That's how it works. 00:32:41.475 --> 00:32:41.655 Right? 00:32:41.655 --> 00:32:44.195 Don't pick up a book, you know, how to learn JavaScript. 00:32:44.845 --> 00:32:45.145 Hmm. 00:32:45.935 --> 00:32:46.295 Oh 00:32:47.035 --> 00:32:47.535 DUKE: all right. 00:32:47.845 --> 00:32:48.205 CJ: yeah. 00:32:48.725 --> 00:32:52.655 So don't pick up a book on like how to learn JavaScript in like 30 days, right? 00:32:52.805 --> 00:32:55.025 Like pick up the ServiceNow instance, right? 00:32:55.025 --> 00:32:58.595 And start building something, and then figure out like where your gaps are 00:32:58.600 --> 00:32:59.885 and then figure out how to plug them. 00:33:00.745 --> 00:33:00.965 DUKE: Okay. 00:33:00.965 --> 00:33:02.175 We're at 37 minutes. 00:33:02.175 --> 00:33:04.105 So we should probably think about wrapping this up. 00:33:04.125 --> 00:33:07.135 Hey, listen, if you have something insightful to say about how 00:33:07.135 --> 00:33:09.545 architecture has changed over the last few years, what keeps you up 00:33:09.545 --> 00:33:12.795 at night as a ServiceNow architect, please put them in the comments, 00:33:12.815 --> 00:33:14.345 wherever you're finding this podcast. 00:33:14.790 --> 00:33:17.730 And, , if you get some good insights, maybe we'll have you on the podcast. 00:33:17.760 --> 00:33:18.650 We have episode two of this. 00:33:21.125 --> 00:33:21.665 CJ: All right. 00:33:21.905 --> 00:33:23.255 And still no outro. 00:33:23.422 --> 00:33:24.212 And we're out.