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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Okay, well, friends.
Hi friends.
Scott's here and you're gonna just hear him as the little peanut gallery in the
back of this introduction, but thankfully he's actually not part of this episode today.
Ouch.
I don't know why he chose to still be here though.
Um Scott is not a part of today's episode
Today I am talking to someone who I was very, very much looking forward to talking to, who is Dr.
Michael Robb.
He is the head of research at Common Sense Media, which Scott and I have talked about Common Sense Media on this podcast before.
It's a fantastic resource for anyone who's trying to decide what movie you might want to watch with your children or what TV show or what game.
You can go on there, basically search any child's movie or game, and you can get their rating.
We use this resource in our house.
And I really love it because you can see, especially for our sensitive daughter, like it's a show gonna be scary, right?
Is this gonna be age appropriate?
Is there any themes that we wanna look out for?
So Common Sense Media is just a fantastic resource.
And Dr.
Michael Robb is the head of research there
He has spent years studying screens, apps, and digital content and the way that they influence children.
And he also talks a lot about how
families can navigate screens in a healthy way.
And what I really, really loved about my conversation with Dr.
Michael is how nuanced he is.
He talked about being nuanced and not liking a black and white approach before I ever brought it up.
And immediately I knew he was gonna be a fantastic fit for the podcast.
He talks a lot about what screens actually look like in his home as a father of two kids that are a little bit older than our kids and gives you some really
practical suggestions for how to use screens in a way that is safe in your home.
It doesn't feel super black and white like you have to count down the amount of minutes that they're on screens and also allows a lot of time for play
I'm really excited for you to listen to this episode.
Honestly, I absolutely love this conversation and let's get started.
Am I allowed to say something first?
You're not gonna see me on the screen because I'm not recording my I knew I knew you were gonna wanna say something.
I said to him I'm here and I wanted to be Get in.
Just come on in, right beside me here.
Oh.
I thought we were gonna share a mic.
I thought that would be cute.
Oh no, I don't watch ew.
What do you?
Okay.
For anyone what not watching the video, Scott hasn't moved his microphone right beside me here.
He's basically like cuddling me at No
No.
Okay, anyway, what do you have to say?
Okay.
I actually had a conversation with our oldest last night about screens.
Okay.
And she asked about our work.
And then she said, Dad
You use a lot of screens for your work.
I thought you said screens are bad.
Oh.
I said, well, that's not actually what we've
said, but I understand why you think that way.
And then we went into this whole long conversation about how for work, I mean, the majority of our work is on screens.
And it resulted in quite an interesting conversation because it's like screens can actually be really good.
They're helpful for work.
They make our lives easier and faster and better.
But
They can also be highly addictive and certain things, certain platforms are designed to draw you in more and keep you consuming.
More.
But anyways, I thought that was an interesting conversation that I had with her just last night.
It's not just bad or good, right?
Or it's not just never let your kid watch a screen, or it's not just let them watch for two hours a day, right?
Like the conversation needs to be a lot more nuanced than I think it is.
And one of the questions I asked was
Should we be all panicked about screens?
Like what do you think about screen time panic?
And I loved his response was about how he doesn't love panic and we can k
Parents panicking.
I don't know.
I loved his perspective.
It was so good and aligned with how we talk here.
And I'm really excited.
I think it's a very necessary conversation and
Great.
Yeah, I can't wait for people to hear from him and I'm glad I was able to somehow insert myself into this episode.
And you can see me on screen if you're watching on YouTube.
He's quite close.
You know, the funny thing is I said to Scott, I'm like, I'm gonna record this intro.
You're gonna be in the room and you're really not gonna say anything and he's like, No, no, I won't say anything.
But of course he couldn't hold back.
I said something of great value.
So that's why I was a part of the
Well thanks for your contribution and uh let's get to the real expert here on screens and let's get to Dr.
Michael Rubb Dr.
Michael
Rob, welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We're so glad that you're here.
Thank you.
I'm very happy to be here.
I would love to start with just you introducing yourself in your own words and telling us a little bit about what makes you passionate about the work that you're doing.
Sure.
So yeah, I'm the head of research at Common Sense Media and I'd actually been studying kids in media for about
20 years.
And my work started a long time ago when we had a whole different set of concerns about tech and media.
So
I started off doing work back when baby DVDs were a big thing and we were doing work studying whether baby DVDs could help or hurt early language development.
And now we're trying to understand how things like AI are helping kids' lives.
And the thing that keeps me passionate is that I genuinely actually really love media and tech.
I use them.
I like using them with my own kids.
I think that's why I'm interested in
Just you know, making sure that kids have healthy and positive tech environments to grow up in.
I love that.
And I think this is a great place to start.
Because a lot of times parents, when we talk about screens or social media or TV or even, you know, baby DVDs, I remember when those were very controversial, there's a lot of panic that comes up for parents and families.
And it's
I think a lot of times the question is, should it be nothing?
Should we not use screens?
Am I a bad parent?
So can you talk a little bit about, especially right now?
I feel like there's a lot of panic around screens.
What do you feel about the current screen time panic that so many parents are facing right now?
Yeah, I don't know that panic really serves anybody well
I completely understand why parents feel anxious about screen time.
Like it is everywhere.
And I think if you were to just kind of read
Just the headlines in the news, like it often makes it seem like screens are the you know they're ruining childhood.
It's bad for so many reasons.
But I think the reality is when you look at the research that screens themselves aren't inherently
good or bad.
And I know this is, you know, maybe the nuanced take that not everybody wants to hear, but what really matters is how kids are using them, when they're using them, who they're using them with, and whether they're crowding out
other important things that we know are important for for kids' lives.
I'm not anti-screened at all, right?
I I try not to have panic in my life.
And in my own family, we love watching TV together at night
You know, it's a great way to unwind and laugh together.
And if that means like there's gonna be an extra hour of screen time on top of whatever else the kids d did during the day, like I I'm trying not to sweat that.
What I do care about is that
The kids are still doing the things that I know that they need to do to be healthy and to do the things that I know are important for development.
Beautiful.
I love that
Something that we talk about a lot on the show is nuance and a lot of our episodes.
We're like, you're not gonna like what we have to say, but it there's actually nuance here and there's gray area and
I think that's harder to find in the parenting space right now.
There's a lot of fear-mongering.
There is a lot of panic.
I'm like you.
I also don't like to live with panic in my life.
We also like using screens with our kids.
And I think yeah, the bigger question is do we have room for these other things in
our children's life as well that are really important.
So what's one thing that you wish parents would stop worrying about that you see parents are really stressed about?
And maybe one thing that we should pay more attention to.
Well, so I mean just going off that first question, I think I wish parents would stop worrying so much about the total number of minutes that their kids are on screens.
Right.
Life is very busy and not every hour of screen time is equal.
So you know some of it could be for a family movie night or TV night, some of it's FaceTiming grandparents or somebody who's elsewhere, some of it's like
learning something new on YouTube or some of us just watching something stupid on YouTube together that you can laugh at.
So in our house we might have, like I said, you know, a long day where the kids get more screen time than I'd ideally plan, but
If they've laughed, if they've done their homework, if they spent some time reading before bed, they went outside a little bit, uh, gotten enough sleep, then I don't see it as a problem.
Like I actually kind of think we need to flip
the lens a little bit so that you start worrying more about the things that we know are good for child development before we start worrying about like all the things that are worrisome about
screen use.
Because if you can check off a lot of boxes, you know, like I know my kid is doing okay in school and I know he's doing his homework and I know that he's going outside sometimes and getting, you know, physical activity
And getting enough sleep at night, then you know, whether they have the exact right amount of screen time or not, then it doesn't matter quite as much.
Yeah, absolutely.
I agree with you.
And I think so many parents are yeah, they're worried about that specific number of hours and making sure that their child stays within that.
But that's
not always realistic on a day-to-day and and sometimes there's more, sometimes there's less.
I like to tell parents about how when the pandemic happened I had a new baby at home and I'm
pretty sure we watched at least one movie every day with my toddler at the time.
And I like to say the flip side of that's what helped my mental health so I could show up as the best mom for my kids outside of that time when we were watching movies together.
Absolutely.
And your kids probably actually have some very fond memories of that time as well.
It's like, oh, you know, it's a nice like cuddle time.
It's a time to be close together.
And that's sweet.
Like it can be a time for human bonding.
So I love that something that you said was standing out to me is not all screen time is created equal.
And I think that that's a big part of the conversation that I've seen kind of missing.
Like we're saying screens are bad.
There is this kind of panic around screens.
But when you say not all screens are created equal, what what do you mean by that?
So screen is such a generic term for something that can have all kinds of different like capabilities
Right.
It's for watching, it's for playing with others with, it's for being solo, it's for learning.
Like it could be a hundred different things.
So, you know, to just lump it all as like, well, my kid had two hours of screen time, like
That doesn't really capture you know qu quite what's happening with kids.
So, you know, I'd like to remind parents that, you know, especially parents who might be worried like, oh my god, my kid is on their Chromebook all day at school and they come back
and then they have screen time, like it's too much screen time.
And I'm like, yes, but like what they were doing with their Chromebook at school is probably very different than what they are doing at home when they're coming back to like play a video game with a friend.
And we shouldn't just lump all of these things together.
Like conceptually like it just doesn't make sense.
It's serving
Different kids' different needs at different times.
Yeah, that makes total sense.
To that discussion, Chromebooks at school.
I know this wasn't maybe on our list of questions, but now you have me thinking.
Chromebooks at school, screen time at school.
I mean, I'm hearing from parents.
I'm hearing from both.
We have a lot of teachers who listen to the podcast and
One actually of my good friends who's a teacher called me the other day and she was like, Jess, I just feel like all the kids in my class, you know, they ha have a ton of like handheld devices or screens at home.
They're coming to school.
I feel like I can't engage them.
And I asked one of the parents, like, how can I better engage your
son and she says well you have to make your class more like a video game and she's like I I can't keep up with that you know and then on the flip side I hear from parents
And they're saying, you know, my kid's on a Chromebook all day or they're watching lessons on the screen at class.
Like I thought school was supposed to be screen free time.
So I know that's not really a
question but more a discussion.
Do you have any research or thoughts on like I mean let's start with the Chromebooks at school and the screens at school?
I think a lot of it depends on what the Chromebook is being used for
There should be a general rule of thumb, like, is this something that could be done as effectively without technology?
Like do we actually need the technology in this educational scenario or not?
And if the answer is really no, then yeah, you maybe you don't need the Chromebook.
There's probably a lot of assignments and things that are being done that don't require it.
But in terms of, you know, it's more efficient for the classroom for
you know, a set of high school kids to be typing their papers into Google Docs and then it gets submitted through Google Classroom and it's easier for the teacher to be able to grade it all that way.
Like I I'm less concerned about that.
I think I'm more concerned about
Either A teachers feeling like they have to use technology because it's being pressed on them by like a school district and they're using it in ways that they're not comfortable with.
And so it has like novelty, but doesn't necessarily have any kind of like
educational value above and beyond what they would be doing otherwise.
I'm concerned about it in early childhood settings where, you know, there really is a displacement effect.
where we know for like very young kids in preschool and the first couple grades of elementary that they need time in the real world interacting with other people.
They need interactions with physical objects and being able to manipulate things with their hands and move their bodies
that, you know, screens in schools could displace those things.
So i if you're not careful and intentional with screen use in schools like a
could be a problem.
And I think there are schools out there that, you know, maybe don't have it quite figured out, but there are some who do.
And so, you know, for the for those schools and for those kids in those situations, like I said, I'm trying not to sweat about those kinds of
of uses.
I think there is something to the fact that it's a market, right?
Like there are a lot of companies out there who are trying to sell products to go into schools because like there's a lot of kids there and a lot of potential dollars.
And so, you know, th you you might be seeing more pressure to use technology in ways that they really aren't necessary, but because there's a commercial incentive to use it, that it's getting used more widely than it maybe it should.
Yeah, that makes sense
I it's the balance, right, of like is this helpful?
I I totally agree with you.
I think teenagers, you know, or even older kids in elementary school typing things
so that they can submit it online.
Like that makes a lot of sense.
For me as well as a therapist, my concern is always those younger years as well.
A big part of my work is always like, well, how much are they
playing?
How much are they spending time with peers?
Is the time that they're spending watching a screen or having a handheld device where they're doing schoolwork, is that replacing time for play?
Like do they still have that
Which sounds like is very aligned with the research that you've done as well.
Yeah, I mean we can always go back to what we know about child development.
You know, there's
handful of years of research about media and technology and there's a hundred plus years of research about child development.
So we know already what are those things that kids need when they're growing up, especially in early childhood.
They need warm supportive interactions
They need the time to be able to pretend play.
They need good sleep.
They need safe environments.
There are all these things that like, you know, we can just check off these boxes and technology does not even need to enter
equation except for if the technology comes in and starts displacing or replacing or disrupting any of those things and then you could say even without the research like I have a sense this probably isn't good for kids
Exactly.
There's a intuitiveness to that as well, right?
And I think I completely agree.
If we look at child development, what we know from
years and years and years of research.
Kids haven't changed in what they need, relationship, playtime.
And they won't.
Like this is what kids have always needed and what they'll continue to need.
And
And I love the way that you frame screens as this is not the issue.
We don't have to have this panic, but we just need to make sure that kids still have the things that they've always needed.
That's right.
Yeah, I think that's really beautiful and and hopefully comforting to parents who are feeling really stressed out about how much screen time that they use with their kids.
So one of the questions I had asked earlier that I want to come back to is
Is there something that you think we should be more worried about that we're not talking about?
It depends on the age of the kid, I think.
Screen use that feels compulsive rather than intentional is concerning to me.
You know, if kids are like kind of just just scrolling mindlessly or gaming
Cause they feel like they can't stop and not because they're actually enjoying it or getting something out of it.
Right.
And I think that's when you start to see screens start to crowd out of the basics like
you know, sleep or relationships or like, you know, going outside.
And that's, you know, when I talk about that, I'm usually talking about social media because that, you know, really heavy, passive use, scrolling late at night, constant checking
You know, those are things that are linked with poor sleep, they're linked with higher anxiety, with lower self-esteem.
And for teens who are still forming their sense of identity, you know, a lot of that content that they're just kind of scrolling through can amplify a lot of pressures around body image and popularity
So like that's you know what I think about when I think about like older kids and then kinda what we just talked about for younger kids.
I I'm concerned when it displaces human time, especially in early childhood.
You know, I've seen several surveys recently pointing to, you know, more YouTube use by very young children, even kids under two.
And I feel like maybe there's a sense out there that, oh, you know, there's good stuff.
There's stuff for babies even on on YouTube.
But so much of it is commercial
or mindless, you know, or has content that's not appropriate for kids.
It has an allure, I think, of feeling educational, because it's like colors and shapes and letters, but it's so shallow so much of the time.
And
I think kind of defaulting to like, well, I think this is good for my kids, so I'm just gonna pass off the device.
That does concern me.
And also if parents are passing off the device to
You know, sue children who are upset frequently.
Yeah, let's maybe start in the younger years and then we'll go more into the social media.
Because a lot of people who listen, they do have those young children at home.
And I think specifically what you're talking about in terms of using screens to regulate
a child and and keep them calm.
I mean occasionally is one thing, but all the time as a strategy is another thing.
And then the type of content.
So yeah, YouTube for a child under two is concerning and and very young.
If
A child was, let's say, engaging in some s kind of screen time and they're in those younger years, how would you say a healthy way to go about it would look for a parent?
So a healthy way would be to be intentional in what
you are using so is it a show that you've selected an app that you selected or even if you didn't know like the exact app like maybe there's a company that you're comfortable with you know I like to point to like PBS kids like I don't necessarily know every
app that they have, but I'm gonna feel pretty good that that's a maker that has made something that's good that has been well thought out for children.
So picking something that's like developmentally appropriate for a kid at that age, that is a good match for or that kid is
interested in or won't bore them or might be fun for them and what's the context of that use?
So is it just to sue the child like that might not be a great use if you're using it that way all the time
Or is it doing it sometimes cause like the example I always hear is like someone's gotta take a shower or do some cooking, like that can be fine, especially if that's better than the alternative where you're fighting with your child for 15 minutes.
When you're trying to get something done.
So like those are the kinds of things, you know, like what is the context?
What is your child like?
What is the content they are viewing?
Like kind of seeing where those things interact, like can really help you, I think, to hone in on what might be good
for your child at that moment.
And then also, you know, what are you potentially displacing?
Like if you're gonna be stopping and more enriching activity to do this.
you know, like a calling them inside or you know they're already playing with friends and then you like you shift them purposefully to something less engaging like that might m might might not be a a great idea.
Yeah and as a parent how old are your kids by the way
They're thirteen and eleven.
Thirteen and eleven.
Okay, great.
So we'll talk about your kids' ages because I feel like your kids ages are kind of the
prime age where I'm seeing my clients coming in and we have a lot of concerns.
Yeah.
My kids are a little younger, so my oldest is eight and then I have a five-year-old and a three-year-old.
And something that I've noticed is I really have to ask myself why I'm turning on, let's say, a show.
We love PBS as well.
And I feel like that's one of our go-to kind of
channels or you know, I I agree.
We know that those shows are good.
We thrived on Daniel Tiger in the pandemic and like you talked about earlier, we
look back at it with happy memories now.
My oldest is eight and she is like, remember when we watch Daniel Tiger every day for two years?
I'm like, oh yeah, I do.
And does she remember all the songs from Daniel Tiger?
I bet she does.
She sure does, yes.
But something that I've had to ask myself is why am I turning it on right now?
Is it because they're being so dysregulated and upset and I just don't want to deal with it?
And is it a one time thing like we're just having a hard day as a family and we just wanna reset?
Or is this becoming
a pattern.
And so I've had moments with even my own kids where I'm like, this show isn't working for us anymore.
Right?
Like maybe the show we were watching that I thought was going to be fine ended up
for one of my kids who's more sensitive.
She just wanted to watch it all the time and she'd see the TV and start crying and be like, I need to watch the show like at all hours of the day.
And so what I always like to tell parents too is
It's tuning in with your own child and kind of seeing how the screens are impacting them personally.
It's hard to give a rule of like
This show is no good, like is always no good, right?
So the one show my daughter wanted to watch was Gabby's Dollhouse, which is, you know, lots of lights and colors and things change really quick.
For two of my kids it was totally fine.
They could watch one episode and move on with their day.
The other child just became hooked and she w talked about it all the time and if she saw the TV, she started
crying and so those were some little red flags for me that I was like, okay, this isn't working anymore.
We have to make a change.
Is there any other red flags kind of like that that you would say to parents like
These are some signs that maybe the way you're using screens in your home just isn't working well for your little children.
I mean I the what you described is a
Big one.
Like if if use of screens is always associated with like really big emotions, especially when it's like ending, your child melts down every time the like a device or the TV goes away.
Like I think that's a pretty good sign that it might be time to recalibrate
I think if it feels like you are just constantly battling screen time, I think everybody is to some extent, but like really in a way that's stressing you out, making your life miserable, making your kids' life miserable, like
That's an indication like, oh, there need to be some really clear expectations and rules so that you're not constantly negotiating.
If it's just constantly negotiation like that.
that's difficult for a parent and it's difficult for a kid.
Like it's helpful for a kid to have structure and expectations about like this is the time when you will watch this show, you get one of these episodes.
Every other day, every day, whatever it is, but just know like when it comes off, here's the thing that we are going to transition to.
And if you show me that you can't turn it off at the end, then then the expectation or the consequence is
We're just not gonna watch it, right?
Or we're not gonna use that thing.
But a kid has to have buy-in.
And I would also recommend that parents work out that system
With their kids to some extent.
Ask them like what do you think should happen?
What do you think you should do when this is over?
Get them to have the buy-in.
Because if they have buy-in, if they think that they were the ones who helped to set the rules
It's usually more likely that they will try to adhere to them.
Yeah, I love that.
I I think creating the family rules together around screen time is so healthy and important for a family and gives a child a sense
the sense of choice.
One thing just for parents as well, and I'm curious if you've done this in your home, is we've like to set up little rhythms in our day around
when we're watching T V or when we're spending time on a screen.
My husband actually collects all old Nintendo gaming systems and so that's what
my kids and him like to do for fun if they're like playing a game.
So they'll grab like he's got all these old DSs, Game Boy Advance, that kind of thing.
thing and they like to play that together.
We like that because there's no access to the internet on it, so it works well.
But we like to build little rhythms in when they do it.
So for example in our home Friday night is movie night
And so every Friday night, we pick a movie together, we order in pizza, and we sit on the living room floor and eat it, and it's it's lovely.
After school, they might get a little bit of TV time before dinner, and then that's it for after school
Hey friends, so at pickup last week, our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan and he said
To our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So
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And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Was there any rhythms or routines or things that you put in place when
Or even now with your children that you found helpful in terms of when they were on a device or watching a screen?
Yeah, we have
Green rules in the house.
And like I said, I'm I'm not anti tech, I I like it, I just want it to be in balance.
And we have different rules for weekdays versus weekends
So because on the weekdays they have school and they have activities and the expectation is that they're gonna do the other things first.
But on the other hand, like I do I'm cognizant, like, you know, when they get back from school, like they're beat
They sometimes do need like a little break.
So your mileage will vary.
You have to do it's what works for your family.
But basically like they can have a half an hour every day when they come home from school to like just kind of decompress whatever.
And when that time is up, they can go on to do the other thing
But we have made it very clear that like there there are some days where that's just not possible.
You know, you won't be able to get that full half hour.
And
That's okay because sometimes we'll make it up in other ways or we'll have a movie night or whatever.
Similar to your family, we always have a Friday night pizza and movie.
And that has been a really um really helpful and really bonding.
Like I really enjoy that.
And on weekends the kids get more time.
They get two hours a day to
you know, do whatever is they want to do.
E even that still has um some restrictions.
I allow my kids some YouTube time, but not unlimited YouTube time.
And the other thing they need to do is like if they want an app or something, like they have to clear with me.
They can't just download things willy-nilly.
without my knowledge.
And the problem with with this though is it requires a lot of or it can require a bit of like effort from parents to try to to manage.
But I will say the effort that you put in the beginning of just trying to get the system in place pays off in the long run in terms of
lack of time that you need to spend later, you know, with fights and screen time disagreements and I thought I could do this and why can't I do this?
And so like any system that you put in place, any routine is going to take some time at
the beginning, but the important thing is to try to be consistent with it so that again, it's just this is what it is and so we we're not gonna keep fighting about it.
Absolutely.
I think for the parents of the younger kids listening, this is such a great episode for you to be listening to and great time to kind of talk about even with with
with your parenting partner what that might look like in your house like what your screen rules are gonna be what the expectations are gonna be for your kids what you're gonna feel comfortable with and like you said Dr.
Michael starting it off
on the right foot is really helpful.
Now for me as a therapist who works a lot with kids, I'd say like eight to fifteen, and a lot of them have been on screens already.
And they have specifically some of the challenges that I'm seeing in my practice are the boys with gaming.
Most of them will come in and I'll say, what do you like to do?
What are your hobbies?
And it's always Roblox, Minecraft, Fortnite
Mm-hmm.
So that's been a really big theme I've seen in my practice around the boys that I work with, around the girls that I work with
same age group, what do you like to do in your spare time?
Snapchat, TikTok.
Those are the two main ones that I'm hearing a lot about.
And this also could be just where I am, the community where I'm doing my work.
But it seems
Like this is quite common around the world.
So I'm curious about the research that you've done on that.
Does that feel consistent with what I'm seeing in my practice?
And
Any words of encouragement for parents who have to now step back and be like, I need to get back into this position of leadership because really gaming or social media has taken over my kids' life.
I mean and we'll kind of keep coming back to the themes that we've talked about a few times earlier on this podcast, but about kind of balance and making sure you're not displacing other more important things.
Gaming can be positive
Right.
It can be very social and I'm sure for a lot of the boys that you see, like, you know, it's part of their friend groups.
It can be creative, it can be a means of connection.
In our own research we find I think that three quarters of boys are playing games daily.
at least often for, you know, a a good chunk of time.
But the key is it's balance and age appropriateness.
You know, when my kids were little, you know, when they were in early elementary school, especially my oldest, he really wanted to play Fortnite
And I know like I I've seen it.
I played it a little bit.
It's not the most violent game, especially compared to lots of other things out there.
But they were young and I didn't think it was right for that that age, and so I said no
And they lived.
They're fine.
They and they've still played plenty of other video games.
Like just not that particular one until they got older.
So like, you know, you may have family values that you want to support, and it's okay to say like, not this one, but this one
So in other words, like I'm not comfortable with this, I'm even if your friends are playing with it, but like here are a menu of other options that you
can use.
I think it's also important for parents to realize, like I said, like, you know, when you if you just say like no no game and you're trying to cut it back, like you are in some ways cutting off
a little bit of a social connection that they have, you know, when they're talking, chatting with, like it's a subject of conversation at school.
So it might not be great to just
cut it off entirely unless it really is become so prevalent or like the kid really seems like it's displacing school.
You know, they're doing it so much that it's displacing all these other more important things in their lives.
But but in general most kids are not gaming that way
But it should still be part of a balanced diet.
So yes, for your for your kids who are that you see in your practice, some gaming might be fine if it is displacing
School, sleep, it's causing all kinds of like fights and and you know negative interactions in the household, like that is a sure sign.
Like it is time to recalibrate, re-establish, like
Here are the rules or boundaries, maybe even set some time limits.
Time limits with games can be tricky because they're not always perfectly time bound in the sense that like
Fortnite if you're playing around the Fortnite like it might be 20 minutes long and you know maybe you're hoping your kid was only gonna play for half an hour, but now it's gonna bleed for like
40 minutes, but if you do like after this round is over, then you will stop.
Like that gives your kid a natural stopping point.
So trying to find natural stopping points, I think, can help to alleviate some of the conflicts that arise
Around gaming.
So much of what you said is so aligned with how I approach parents.
It's a lot of the it's having some of those boundaries, right?
So for the
For the parents I support, it's talking to them about screens in their rooms.
Yep.
Um when screens that's being a big one, right?
Not not having a screen in the bedroom.
And then when screens take over sleep
That's something that I'm seeing, you know, kids are coming in anxious, they're coming in depressed, and they're struggling, but when we look, they're not sleeping because they're up all night playing a game.
So simple things like that
to create changes that can feel healthy for the family.
Yeah, that's a really good one in the sense of like, oh, I thought it was the gaming, but it's actually the fact that they're not sleeping well.
is the thing that is actually driving.
It's it's being masked by the gaming, perhaps.
Um but that rule is such an important one and it's like, oh if I was going to recommend like what's one fairly low-hanging fruit
for a you know, a parent to take into their homes, if they're not already doing that, is to, you know, no screens at bedtime, keep the screens out of the room.
charger devices elsewhere and start that, you know, it may be too late for s for some parents, but if you can't start it early, if you're the parent of a young child, start that expectation early and make sure that the expectation around sleep time is probably reading.
Like get get that habit going real
early so that just like okay yes at nine o'clock everything goes away it gets plugged in in the kitchen we go upstairs and we do reading time and that's just what it is.
Because you are absolutely right, like the lack of sleep associated with screen use is correlated with, you know, a lot of negative outcomes.
Anything from
Anxiety and depression to, you know, poorer academic functioning.
Yeah, I think that's such an important one to know.
And parents often are like, oh, but their friends are playing late
And I love how casual you are about it.
Like, yeah, some things are hard or I can say yes to a lot of things.
I'll give you a menu of all the things I can say yes to, but this isn't something I can say yes to.
Having a menu is always a a great option for a kid.
I mean, we did that frequently with our children when they were growing up.
They were lucky enough to have a parent who worked at Common Sense Media.
But like I have also was like just really interested in like what are the TV shows or movies or games that are good
And I knew they weren't gonna like all of them, but I was like, well, here are three you can choose from or two you can choose from.
And just having that menu of choice like gives them a little sense of agency that they pick something that they like.
And you can still feel good that you have
Help them find something of high quality.
Yeah, I love that.
And Common Sense Media, again, such a great resource for finding quality shows and games and and everything's
for your children so you can actually look and see if this is going to be helpful for your child or not.
On that note, just one last thing about the games.
I have a lot of parents come in very stressed out about their child's desire to play, specifically Roblox
And I'm sure you know you have children this age too.
This is the game that they all want to play.
They're often chatting with their friends on there, but there's also a lot of panic for parents around that game specifically.
I'm wondering if you have any specific research or advice around that game
I mean Roblox is a tricky one because it's user created games or you know, they're just there's so many of them.
It's like a little bit like a YouTube of games in terms of like your selection
The first thing I would suggest is not to just wave it all off as like something that you just don't want to deal with because it is a huge game and lots of kids play with it.
And there are there can be positive experiences to be found on Roblox, but I might start by like looking at the settings and turning on privacy and safety settings that are important.
making sure their accounts are private, that they can't accept DMs or talk to other people through Roblox, putting on content filters to make sure it's age appropriate.
You know, lots of platforms, Roblox and others, have some form of like a supervised account or something that makes it a little stricter.
for kids and just taking like a couple minutes to just look through those settings can make you feel a little bit better, at least at the worst harms of robots n won't necessarily
affect your child.
But similar to any other game, like what what are the rules for Roblox?
Like what games are they allowed to play on there?
How much are they allowed to play it?
And is it causing a meltdown if like you know when you stop that it just becomes like a really, really stressful situation?
You know, if you it's not those things.
And I, you know, my family has played Roblox.
I have played Roblox with my kids.
If you want to connect with your kids, just ask them to give you a Roblox tour.
Like they will gladly
spend a good amount of time showing you their favorite games and asking you to play with them.
And I cannot guarantee you that every game in there is super high quality.
And for my mind some of them are quite stupid.
But it is fun to play with your kid and to have them be excited to show you.
Something to play with.
So if you want to grow a garden with your kid, there are a lot worse ways to spend your time and actually it can be a lot of fun.
Yes, I love, love, love that you said that.
That's something I suggest to all the parents I work with when they're panicked about
They're children playing games.
I said, we'll play them together, you know.
Get them to show you.
They would love to show you whatever with Roblox or Minecraft, whatever it is
They would love to show you what they're up to and what they're doing and then you have a common language and experience and you can kind of understand it better.
I know for a lot of parents like myself who didn't grow up
gaming, you're just like, oh, well I'm not interested in that.
But I love to just say, but your child is, and they would love to show you.
And then you have an understanding of what they're doing as well.
And and I think
Some of the tricky parts for the parents that I support is that they just have no understanding and they don't know even that there is access to chats or there's access to their friends online.
And so getting to know what your child's doing is really helpful
I think, you know, those are probably the more concerning parts about Roblox is, you know, for the potential access to strangers or interactions with people or situations that
a parent would look at, you know, and be horrified by.
Because it is possible there had been like instances where people with nefarious intentions to try to reach out to children.
on Roblox.
So you really want to do the best that you can to try to lock down their accounts as much as possible, especially when they're young, so that their ability to talk with strangers is limited.
Talking with their friends, you know.
I you know, my friends it actually my kid will they'll start up a FaceTime before they go on to Roblox so they can chat while they're doing it, and I think that's
It's nice.
Like it's you know, Saturday morning at 8 30, like I'm barely functioning, but they're all having a really robust social time and to be honest, like I think it's actually better that they're playing together than if he was kind of just
by himself doing his own thing, totally isolated and shut off from everybody else.
I love the idea of setting up the FaceTime and being able to chat through there too.
That's another great solution for parents who are fearful of the chat specifically on Roblox or the gaming itself
But I think that conversation leads us to the social media conversation.
And I mean, in a way, gaming is not social media, but you can have that social connection in terms of chatting with friends on some games.
And I always tell parents, make sure that you know who your child's talking to.
And make sure you educate your child on how to be safe online.
And I think that crosses over to social media and these different platforms that kids are on now.
So I'm curious if you have any research or any just thing you'd want to share for parents who have children who are starting to ask for a phone, they're starting to ask for social media.
I know we're seeing it at younger and younger ages, but how do you speak to parents around that?
Uh well I think those are two different questions though whether you're ready for a phone and what you can do on social media.
Let me start off with the phone question first.
Sure.
And then what we can talk into the social media.
You know, our research shows that age of first ownership for phones is just kind of
trending down and down and down.
And even by the time kids are eight, I think a quarter of kids by age eight have their own cell phone, which I was a an astonishing statistic to me.
But I I expect that, you know, as there are more old devices that just get passed down, like that number may
Increase.
I have a 13 year old and he does have a phone that he got last year and we started with a pretty strict
phone agreement that set expectations for when and how it could be used.
And even before that, we talked a lot about like what is it that we need to see before we even consider giving you a phone.
And we I literally I posted it on the refrigerator
So you can see like I love it.
Here are the things you need to do before we can get you a phone.
By the way, kids are very motivated by this, so like get ready for them to be like really good rule followers.
Can you give some examples of of what he needed to do
Yeah, these are some of these are really basic.
It's like for us I was like, oh, can you take care of your belongings?
Like if you're constantly leaving stuff at school or like losing things, like I'm not sure a phone is for you yet
Can you already follow the screen time rules that we have in the house?
If we're already fighting like constantly about it, like that's not a good sign that it's gonna get better with a cell phone.
Things like do you already do your chores and your homework without me having to remind you all the time
A really big one for me was can you put your device down when somebody is talking to you?
Or your and take your headphones down as well.
Because you know he has an iPad and like I want to make sure that when I'm chatting with him that he's not
Engrossed in that while he's half having a conversation with me, but he knows how to pause it and look up and and talk to me.
And then in general, like is this a kid who you think can make good judgments generally?
Are they f
Fairly kind and respectful when communicating?
Like th they're about to enter potentially a world of like a lot of drama.
Like do you think your kid can avoid
that digital drama or maybe you haven't had enough conversations about how to avoid that digital drama.
So it was like that kind of a checklist and like when I thought like yeah you you're pretty much doing all these things then we got him
the phone.
But when we got on the phone, we're like, okay, now you're going to sign this this agreement.
We literally made him sign like these are the rules and expectations.
I think what you shouldn't do is just hand over a phone with full access and no expectations because it's much harder to pull back later if problems arise
So look, you know, start slow, set a clear agreement on what your kid can and can't do, and then you expand privileges and access slowly as they show
That's the best description I've heard so far of how to slowly introduce a phone to your child because I think there's a lot out there.
It's like don't give them any phone till they're eight
So our child is thirteen.
He got it last year, he was like twelve and a half, and he's almost fourteen now, and still
He has access to messages and to some games, but there's no social media on his phone.
He has not made a compelling reason or case to me why he needs
TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram.
And we've had those conversations a couple of times, but each time like I just you know, I don't see why you need this.
And eventually just he's it seems like he's given up at the moment.
We'll probably circle back to those conversations at some point.
But the kind of access he has right now is not prohibiting him from doing
the things that I think are important which are like being able to be connected to his friends and have a calendar and be in contact with his parents.
Yes.
And is there any monitoring that you do of his phone?
Is that
part of the agreement that you have or the contract that you set up together in terms of the messages that he's sending, let's say, to his friends or or the conversations that he's having?
Yes, there is monitoring.
It is known that
We get to know what his passport is and we are allowed to at random times, unannounced, look through his phone and he should not do anything on his phone that he would be uncomfortable with a parent or grandparent seeing.
I think that's
Fair, especially with like uh you know when they're young, it's probably gonna be harder to enforce when he's seventeen.
I don't know if I'll still do it when he's seventeen, but for now I'm just kind of making sure he's getting into the habits of
It's a very powerful device that has access to literally all the information, all the entertainment, all the games, all the pornography, all the everything that a kid could want at a moment's notice.
The expectation is yes, I will get to see that phone from time to time when I need to.
Beautiful.
Yeah, I think that's an important piece.
I just want parents to hear.
I assume that was your answer, but
I want parents to know that too because I hear a lot from them like, oh, it feels like I'm reading their diary.
It feels like an invasion of their privacy.
And so I think what you've done in terms of clearly setting that up
for your child and that expectation being known versus I'm s sneaking behind your back and trying to get in and look.
It are they're very different.
That part of it is probably the most uncomfortable.
Like I don't want to feel like I'm violating privacy or like reading his diary.
And sometimes, you know, I'll be scrolling through a chat and it's not stuff I'm necessarily like proud of.
There's language being used by the 13-year-old that I'm like, whoa, that's more than
I was expecting, but like if it's not, you know, kind of bullying harassment, it's not something like, oh, they're involved in like drug and alcohol stuff.
There's no like talk of like self-harm.
Like the things that are really concerned me
Are the things I'm looking for.
And I told him that I was like, listen, I don't care like that you guys swear or do you know you have like saucier conversations than I'm expecting.
I'm looking for things that like make me worried about your well-being
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, that's the balance, right, of being thirteen and having these conversations and having your parent look and
Realizing your child's growing up and having you know, saying words that you didn't know that they quite knew yet.
That's also the tricky part of being a parent.
But I love how you outline that.
I think that's really helpful.
I think as a parent of like I said, my daughter's eight.
She knows a lot of people that have a phone already.
And that's tricky
for her, she knows that that's not happening for her, but I love the idea of like here's what would need to and the age and the time.
Um 'cause for us we're like you don't you have no reason to have a phone.
You're never somewhere where we're not there s you know, we can't text someone.
So
It's just it's not at this point a need in her life, but I love the idea of like here's the things that we need to see first, including taking care of belongings, which uh I like the motivation too.
I'm like at some point that'll be nice to to have
So let's talk about yeah, like you mentioned the difference between a phone and being on social media.
Social media.
That's a big one.
A lot of really young kids are on it.
We're seeing the damage.
I'm curious about your research, your thoughts from your professional opinion.
Like a lot of things, social media is more than one thing, right?
I mean YouTube is primarily video consumption, but it gets lumped together with
you know, Snapchat and other stuff and you know like I don't want to get too much into the weeds of all that.
Except to mention that like social media use A is you know by by most company standards is not supposed to be used by kids under the age of thirteen, even though a lot of kids lie about their age and
and do get on social media.
The potential for exposure to really inappropriate or potentially harmful content is, despite c you know companies efforts, still
you know pretty regular it's still pretty then the chances of your kids seeing something like that you would not approve of are pretty high and it's very very easy to get pigeonholed by an algorithm into unhealthy content
And, you know, specifically for teen girls, that could mean exposure to stuff that starts off with like, here's a healthy recipe, into
Now all of a sudden it's a lot of like diet culture stuff, things about exercising and body image, and things that we know are associated with bad outcomes for especially early adolescent girls, you know, roughly between 10 to 14.
And for boys, we just did a report about their exposure to what we call digital masculinity content, which is content that's really coded more male, that's some of it's innocuous, some of it's not, you know, it could be anything from like
stuff about making money and building muscle to girls only want to date certain guys, guys who are rich and and handsome, or boys are treated unfairly compared to girls.
And that kind of exposure is linked to lower self esteem, more loneliness, things like that.
So there's
There's a lot of content on there that I as a parent would be quite concerned about for a child, especially a child under the 13.
Now if your child is already on one of those platforms, like I said, it's don't panic
Go back to the very very beginning of this conversation.
Don't panic.
Start with curiosity, not punishment.
Try to find out what they like about it, who they follow.
how it makes them feel.
This is another good time to step in and be like, hey, can you give me a tour of what your you know your social media feed looks like.
I'm just interested in like how they like recommend stuff
And you know, like I said, k kids who are sometimes very hesitant to talk, especially boys, but also girls to some extent, are often very happy to talk about technology and may very willingly give you like a tour of like, here's what I see on Instagram and
TikTok and here's why you shouldn't be worried.
And maybe you are, maybe you're not worried, but at the very least you can have that start that conversation.
I think at a very bare minimum, parents should turn on privacy and safety settings
for any social media account that their kid has already in place.
So, you know, making sure their accounts are private, that people, you know, strangers can't DM them, that content filters are on.
If there is a such a thing as a supervised account like that that is on.
And similar to what you mentioned earlier, like no social media, phones, whatever in the bedroom after bedtime, you can protect
you know, mental health outcomes that way as well.
Yeah, I think those are all great pieces of advice for sure.
I think having those boundaries and being the leader of that versus your child just has access to social media, we don't really know what's going on, but we let them download it because
All their friends are on it.
If I think a lot of what you're talking about is being involved and being curious and trying to understand like why does this matter to you?
Why do you want to be on Snapchat?
Like why is that important to you?
Help me understand it.
Because there is, and and you noted this earlier and we've talked about this on the show before, but that need for belonging from our teens and from our tweens and for a lot of
them that's why they're so desperate to get on social media.
I think also when you start the conversation, even if your kids are already exposed and looking at things that you're not happy about
The human connection is a bit of a buffer, right?
It's a protective factor.
So if you can at least have those conversations, even if your kid is also seeing some of these things, nothing is going to prevent all like the worst
effects of you know negative content on social media, but you're building in a potential buffer or something that will add resilience and an outlet for them to use if they encounter content or experiences online that
Make them uncomfortable that are really negative that are really upsetting.
You want to have that channel open as much as possible.
Yeah, having that relationship and
And what I always teach to parents too along that exact same note is letting them know that you know what potentially could be on there.
A lot of times I think kids like in this
This comes to the conversation about porn, which we don't have time to get into today too, but letting them know that you know what that is and if they ever see something, you know, that makes them uncomfortable or you know, pictures of people without
clothes on, all of that kind of thing.
You know that that's out there and you want them to come talk to you so that they see you as someone who does understand those things versus as a parent who's like, oh, they would have no idea that that even exists.
Exactly.
Just a few more questions, but you talked about your child not having social media yet.
Is there a time or is there a strategy or how will you know that they're ready?
And that you feel comfortable with them going on?
I would want to first hear like a compelling reason why they needed this thing in the first place.
I think
If it was like, oh, I can't connect with my friends unless I'm on this thing, then maybe we can have that conversation.
But for right now, it's mostly another entertainment source and they already have enough
Entertainment sources that I'm I'm not particularly concerned about whether they have this exact one.
But yeah, I'd want to be able to see that they A that we've had these conversations a bunch of times, that they knew how to avoid
getting involved in different kinds of drama, like at school or otherwise, that sometimes happen on social media.
I'd want them to know that like I would still reserve the right to be able to look through their social media feeds and that there would
still probably be limits on their accounts in terms of what they can see.
I don't have a it's interesting you asked that question.
Like I'm not sure I know exactly when yet.
All I know is that my child doesn't need it yet.
So I'm I'm riding with that for now
I love that answer.
I love that's such a real honest answer.
Parents always say, well what age yes?
What age should I give it to them?
And I'm like, I can't give you an age.
Um or like, you know, on this birthday, this is when they should get it
And what I really love about your approach is that it's really empowering to the child.
It's like, okay, well first let's see how you are, just with like a TV or a tablet.
Let's just see, can you get off
Can you you know it's like slowly kind of bringing it in versus just giving them a phone with everything on it and expecting them to regulate themselves on it?
So I I love your approach.
I think it it makes a lot of sense.
If
there was one message around screens, social media, I mean everything that we've just talked about that you really want parents to remember, what would that be?
And I know I hate my husband when we do these ep episodes together.
He always asks me, What's the one thing, Jess?
I'm like, I have five things every time.
But if you can narrow it down to one thing.
So the one thing that parents should remember.
I mean, I think from a
Just a well-being perspective, like you don't have to get this perfect.
Yeah.
Just try to stay connected, right?
Like if you can kind of remember that, like that's at least a step in the right direction.
Even in my house, we have screen disagreements
I don't always win.
But I try to be consistent.
I try to explain the why.
And we keep talking.
And I think that matters more than having perfect control.
parental guilt in this situation I think isn't useful.
But like what matters it more is just paying attention and making adjustments.
And remembering that tech is just one part of family life.
All right, so like don't don't try to be perfect, just be present.
That's my general philosophy that I think a parent should try to um take with them.
I love that.
I think that's so encouraging to parents who are stressed out about it.
To just to know there's room for grace and there's room for your kids being mad at you and not loving your boundary or your rule that you make and there's still room for connection within that.
I think that's really beautiful.
What's one thing that makes you optimistic about kids and technology in the coming years?
That's a great question.
I think they're getting savbier about manipulation to some extent.
Right.
Teams are naming things that like about what's happening.
You know, they they talk about Doom Scrolling, they talk about brain rot.
I know
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that kind of self-awareness can actually help you push back a little bit.
And the other thing I think that makes me optimistic is like this next generation is it's gonna build
differently.
Right?
The kids who are growing up now are the first to live through this full impact of social media and now AI in childhood and many of them don't love it and don't like their experiences on it and are thinking like, would I let my kid do this?
So they're gonna be the designers and the engineers and you know people who make policy in the future.
And I'm optimistic that they will make something better because they lived through something that was worse.
Yes
I love that.
I love it.
I think we give oh, we're so hard on this generation of kids and and you know, people who are university age, but you think about all they've had to go through with their parents as the guinea pigs for technology as well.
And
I think that they will make some really beautiful things out of it and I love that there's optimism there too.
Because I think a lot of the times this discussion just feels really sad and
And hopeless.
And I think the way you discuss it makes it not feel sad and hopeless.
Like there's a lot of positive things that can come from using technology within your home.
And it's it's in the way that you do it.
Just to wrap up, can you tell me a little bit about Common Sense Media?
I mean, I know all about it, but maybe tell the listener what you do and how it helps parents and where they can find Common Sense Media.
Sure.
So Common Sense Media is a we are a nonprofit organization.
We are dedicated to helping children thrive in the digital age.
We're probably best known for our ratings platform.
So if you've ever searched for Common Sense Media or search for a movie review or a
TV review for a kid, you may have come across us, but we have a very well-designed rubric that we use to try to understand
What movies and TV shows and games are developmentally appropriate based on what we know from research?
So this is something a little more thorough than you might get from other kinds of
reading agencies.
And we have lots of lists and recommendations about like what's great for a movie night, what's a good game you can feel good about, what are games that are gonna be great for like a long car ride, things like that.
Um so if you have any of those questions you're looking for
either a good piece of media to use with your kid or if you just have questions.
Like we're a great place to come if you need advice on various kinds of n digital dilemmas.
So
That's what common sense is probably best known for.
We also have a very robust education platform where we do what's called digital literacy in a lot of schools across the United States.
And those are lessons that teachers can do to help kids from K through twelve grow up to be responsible digital citizens, make good choices
Be responsible and ethical online.
Beautiful, beautiful.
And uh we can find you, I mean Common Sense Media is on Instagram, but uh your website's probably the best place to find you, I would guess.
And I honestly I recommend Common Sense Media constantly to my clients who are feeling stressed out and I also don't want people to panic.
So I love that you list out, you know, here's what you can watch and here's the games that kids are playing and here's what you need to know about them, right?
It's
Such an incredible resource for parents to really take away the anxiety that comes around having your child on a device or watching a show or playing a game.
And so just
From a personal note, thank you so much for the work that you're doing.
It's it's incredible.
You're welcome.
We didn't even get into like what what are you watching with your kids?
What are you playing with your kids
I'm sure your listeners want to know.
Oh my goodness.
Well, what do my kids want to watch?
This will not be a surprise.
They want to watch K-pop demon hunters over and over and over.
But yeah, so my oldest is very into K-pop Demon Hunters movie right now.
I think we've watched it oh I don't even know.
A lot
It's been the Friday night movie night for the last uh coup well, whatever since it came out.
Then the youngest l still loves Daniel Tiger.
She still loves all the PBS shows, Pink Delicia's, Daniel Tiger.
I have three girls, so we watch a lot of
shows that have princesses in them as well.
And then like I said, when they have their time for gaming, really only my oldest is actually interested in it.
The two younger ones and this is something oh we'll have to have you back.
But we d we didn't really talk about this either, but
temperament so that my two younger ones, they just they're not as interested in it.
Like I'm not really worried about them around technology.
They would just rather go play.
Like even if I'm sometimes I'm like, girls, sit and watch a show as the mom can make dinner and you cannot destroy the house, you know what I mean?
But they just aren't as interested.
Whereas my older one
She's very interested and so she's the one I m most like kinda have my eyes on in terms of how regulated she is when she gets off or how long she watches it.
But yeah, that's what we're watching.
How about you?
What are you enjoying in your home right now?
We've definitely watched a lot of K-pop demon hunters back like the end of the summer.
So my kids are a little bit older and right now we we're watching parks and recreation together
Oh, I love that.
I mean I'm watching Parks and Rec right now, but not with the kids.
That's like our that's like our family show right now.
It's been fun.
Like I I mean I love the whole PBS kids era and I love being able to find like fun things for young kids.
And there are a lot of really interesting educational and creative
Apps and TV shows for young kids.
But I'm also appreciating like now they're starting to watch things that I like and that I think that they are ready for and can handle.
So I'm I'm quite happy about that.
But like for kids, you know, your your kids' age
I remember they did all the Disney movies, but then I loved it whenever we watched something that was like a non-Disney movie, like My Neighbor Totoro or like any of those kind of Miyazaki films
The kids responded so differently to those films and they did to kind of the more Disney hyped up, more energetic films and but in great ways.
That we watched My Neighbor Kodoro and Kiki's Delivery Service and I've ever watched Song of the Sea.
There's some really great non-American films out there that kids
really enjoy that are very different than I think what they're used to.
I love it.
I'm taking a mental note to uh to watch this.
You know what I do find my kids they don't love the Disney movies as much as we did growing up, but I also feel like
maybe because they have so many options.
There's some on Apple TV that they really love.
I'm trying to remember, but especially with one of my kids who's very sensitive, gets scared very easily.
She likes a lot of those kind of slower paced movies
that don't have the really scary, creepy bad guy that some of the old Disney movies have.
Well this was great.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you coming on.
I mean
We didn't even get into AI or, you know, so many other huge topics that I would love to cover.
So if you're ever willing, we would love to have you back and talk again.
But thank you so, so much and I hope this was helpful for the listener as well.
Thank you for having me.
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