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Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast about building, running, and maintaining

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software and systems.

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Hello and welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast that puts the EB in your

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host, Justin Garrison, and with me, as always, it's Autumn Nash.

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How's it going, Autumn?

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Oh, you did this point with the dad joke.

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Well, you know, today on the show, I'm looking at Duffy right now.

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We got Duffy Cooley on the show, the field CTO of ISOvalent at Cisco, and he has a big

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EB-PF shirt on.

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So, you know, it just, it was there.

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Okay, y'all, but like, Duffy is, okay, like I met Duffy before I knew how cool he was

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and like how much of a legend he was in like, Kubernetes world.

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And Duffy is like the kindest, nicest, most Buddha and everything is okay person, which

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is not very, like, I don't know how you do that, like this much in infrastructure.

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Like everything's always on fire and you're just like, and we're both from Hawaii, I'm

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a Duffy fan, y'all.

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Like.

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What's funny is that a lot of people actually attribute that to being from Hawaii.

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They attribute that.

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It is!

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But then we have an auto.

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Yeah.

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She's like, yeah, skip that, skip that.

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It might be the large amounts of coffee that I drink, but like most people are like, it's

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going to be okay.

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And I'm like, no, it's not.

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And then Duffy's like, it's going to be okay.

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And I'm like, Duffy said it's going to be okay, so it's going to be okay.

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What's funny is I think really what this comes down to, so I grew up in theater, which is

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another one of those industries in which everything is always on fire.

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Yep.

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Right.

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And then, and I realized in that experience that adding my own anxiety to the situation

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was not going to help me solve literally anything.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So like the only way that I could really move forward in that environment with all these

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egos and everything else that was happening was to actually be the calm one.

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But it's wild because some people feel like they're gaslighting you when you tell it's

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going to be okay, but Duffy never gives you that vibe.

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You know what I mean?

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Like some people, they make it worse when they say it's going to be okay.

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And I'm like, this is not helping, but there's something about you that's genuine.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, like you are so kind.

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Like you would think that like somebody with as much experience and all the cool things

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you've done and the talks you've given and just the cool things you've done, like you're

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just such a humble, kind human and you just have like this, just this thing about you.

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And then when you hear you talking about your wife and your kids, oh my God, like, like

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I was a fan before I knew how cool you were.

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And then I found out you did all this stuff and it was just like, so cool.

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I'm a fan.

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Well, thank you, Adam.

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I appreciate it.

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So for people that haven't had the privilege of meeting you or talking to you, Duffy,

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give us a background.

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Where what started you in tech?

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What have you kind of been doing and and then where you ended up now?

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So I started in tech.

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I was kind of I guess the first thing is, you know, from from the whole tech industry,

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from working in the theater tech industry, I was always interested in technology.

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Right. And so I was very fascinated.

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And I joined, like the theater situation, like right around the time

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that moving lights started happening, right, which means that there's a light

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instrument that instead of actually having to focus on one place on the stage,

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you can actually remotely program that light instrument to point at different parts

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of the stage, use different colors and all this other stuff.

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And that to me was like, I was like, technology is really where it's at.

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That's what I want to focus on.

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When I left Hawaii to come back to California, it was actually much more

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difficult to get into sound lighting and staging as that it was in Hawaii,

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where where I was at the time when I first started.

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And so I started getting into computers.

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Like in high school, I took I was like the TA for the computer class,

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all that stuff, because all of that stuff always made sense to me.

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And then I moved into in my in my professional time.

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I went back and forth between California and Hawaii.

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In Hawaii, I was always doing lighting, sound, staging and rigging.

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And in in California, I was always doing tech.

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Tech stuff, either doing systems administration or network administration,

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that kind of stuff.

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At some point, I got really into tech and I started doing I worked

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for a company called North Point Communications,

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where I kind of quickly moved up the.

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Support letter from a place where I was just doing support for people

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who were installing DSL into homes.

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I was actually the person they would call to help them

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subscribe, align and do all that stuff.

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I moved up basically up into the the network architecture team

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very quickly, because I was able to like understand this stuff

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and grow and learn things quickly.

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And and that was like, you know, operating ATM networks

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that cross the across the U.S. and across the globe.

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And then the dot com thing fell apart and I left

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and went on the road doing Renaissance fairs for a long time.

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And then up for years, I guess.

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This is why Duffy is the coolest.

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And then I came back and did more network administration,

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more systems administration.

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And then, yeah, I worked for Juniper Networks for about five and a half years.

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And then I had an opportunity to really kind of change

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the trajectory of my career.

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And I joined a startup, which was called NYSERA,

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which was a network virtualization startup.

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And it was really a super interesting job because

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the opportunity was I was coming to NYSERA

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after spending six years working on hardware and software labs at Juniper Networks.

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So at that point, I had a really clear picture

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of a lot of the ways that one can break a network

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like pretty much had discovered, you know, because in a lab,

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you're trying to do that, right?

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So like I was able to really understand the troubleshoot

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and deeply understand what's happening with a network,

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regardless of the, you know, the situation we're in.

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And so when I went to NYSERA,

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can we point out that Justin and Duffy both started as like TAing

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and support and like figuring things out?

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Oh, man, help desk is so is such a wonderful start.

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And the people that hire people, please hear this.

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You don't always have to have a fancy degree.

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It is worth so much salt to be able to figure out problems and come from help desk.

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Like that sometimes you may not have the avenue to go to a fancy degree,

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but kids do have the avenue to get a help desk job.

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Please let that be like a way to get in because look at these wonderful

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technologists here that like you guys are now giants in the field.

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And where did you start?

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Help desk, which is something that's accessible.

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One thousand percent.

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Good, I don't agree more.

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And I didn't I never went to college.

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I dropped out of high school.

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And you still are bad ass and awesome.

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And I have a fancy degree and learn so much more in the help desk

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than I did in my degrees.

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It's a while though, because Justin has so much personality

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and it's so hard to find like an engineer with personality

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and he's got a math degree and you would assume that he's boring,

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but he's so much fun. Who would have thought?

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Yeah, but trust me, I think also sees the value in like the people puzzle.

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Right. You also see the value in the fact that like no matter

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how much you know about a technology, if you're not able to communicate,

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but you know, you're not able to engage with real people about the technology.

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You're never going to really reach that led to your to both of your success

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because you guys do a lot more.

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I feel like you both are very good with people

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compared to your technical to your typical

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technical technological people.

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I think the humility of help desk for me help me know like I never

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I never tried to be like above the help desk, right?

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Like I'm still even today.

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Other engineers that right, like, oh, my God,

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some people are so fucking insufferable.

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It's all just levels of help desk and if you are putting down people

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at the front line or people that even even people that come and say,

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I have a bug and you're like, oh, you're you're doing it wrong.

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You're you're doing something that's like completely

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not the way it's designed to work or whatever.

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Like it's not their problem, right?

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Like we wrote the docks wrong or whatever other engineers.

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And I think not having that humility and not being able to look at that.

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Like what is the word intro, intro, introspective?

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No, and when you work in two different fields,

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it's on my like, I'm thinking about inter or like inter

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when you basically take a field like interdiscipline, maybe?

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Yeah, something like that.

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But it's it's like interdiscipline or something.

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It's a word that I was putting somewhere in a doc somewhere.

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OK, but like to take like how you said you did like lighting

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and help desk and to take that and then how those skills affect you.

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And like when you come in as a technologist,

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like I think the like when your engineers on a team lack

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being able to see other people's skills and how that could bring to a team

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because engineering is so different.

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Like you can be doing infrastructure, you can be doing data.

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There's not always going to be like a one to one, you know what I mean?

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And I think that we like, especially right now,

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and we're trying to do so much more with less being able to figure out

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how to be force multipliers in your team and to figure out like what skills match.

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I think we are going to really mess up not hiring those people

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that worked at that help desk that have that background because some of them

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like Kelsey Hightower, Duffy, Justin, like how many people like don't.

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And can you imagine if somebody missed out on the Duffy or Kelsey or Justin?

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Like that, like.

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But how'd you go to Hawaii?

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What made you go to Hawaii?

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Tell us about that. That's so interesting.

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Oh, when I was when my mom and my stepfather when I was six

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and my sister was no, I was eight.

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My sister was two years younger than me.

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So she was six. So we moved to Hawaii at that time.

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And it's partially because my stepfather and my mother really loved it over there.

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And we just they wanted to go live over there.

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And so good reason.

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So my grandma, that's how we all ended up in Hawaii.

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Definitely a different time.

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It was a beautiful time to grow up in Hawaii,

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but it's definitely a very different time than like, you know,

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even the time that my kids growing up in such a wild thing.

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But but yeah, and then at some point,

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like I came back to California to live with my father.

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And that's where I got into like all the other fun stuff there.

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It's crazy because my childhood was very much hopping back and forth

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between California and Hawaii.

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So it's really cool to see somebody at the similar.

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Like I'm like, how many people in California do this?

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Oh, man, my roommates in college, three, two of them were from Hawaii.

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It's wild.

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Like, like everyone in California, Nevada and in Oregon,

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I feel like there's so many of those colleges that we just all like

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gravitate to towards to.

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So what do you do after you did that?

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You said Juniper Labs, I think.

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Oh, yeah.

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Then I went to actually Juniper's a big networking company, kind of like Cisco.

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That's funny.

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Now I've worked for the two big networking companies.

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Full cycle.

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The so after so,

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and I say it was a trippy thing because it was like bringing all of my experience

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and understanding and troubleshooting networking and then trying to bring

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reality to a bunch of really intelligent engineers who were trying

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to reinvent networking in the software.

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So how hard I know how to go wrong, what could go wrong?

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But the whole idea of like, you know, so like what I brought to that situation

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was like, they would write some, they wrote an entire like software

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stack that was for networking and I would come into it and say, OK,

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but how do I troubleshoot it?

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Like, how do I understand that this is happening?

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I'm looking for this behavior on a regular network.

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How do I find that behavior on a virtual network?

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Right.

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Like, and just kind of helping like bring a real sense of like,

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this is how the real thing works.

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Help me find an analog for that in the virtual thing,

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which was a wild experience.

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And then, yeah, after that, I went off and to

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after NYSERA, I left and went to Apple for the first time.

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I worked at Apple for building the very first shared infrastructure at Apple,

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which was also a real blast, had a lot of fun there.

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That was actually all based on Mezos and Heroku.

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And I also did a bunch of stuff with like NSX and stuff there

242
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while I was while I was still at VMware as part of the NYSERA acquisition.

243
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And then after Apple, I went to a small company called Illumeo,

244
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which is a network security startup.

245
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I was there for a year and then I left,

246
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mainly because I didn't it was mostly it was mostly concerned

247
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about the shape, the the forward direction of the product.

248
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I was like, I wasn't super happy with it.

249
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And so I left and went and did, you know, the next thing, which was.

250
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I guess back where was that?

251
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So I went then to CoroS.

252
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And CoroS was an amazing experience.

253
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So basically because of my experience at Apple, I was like,

254
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I basically called CoroS up and was like, hey, you should hire me.

255
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And they're like, why?

256
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And then they allowed me to come in for an interview and I met Redbeard

257
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and I met a bunch of other absolute amazing people in our industry.

258
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And they were very happy to see me come in an interview.

259
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And but they hadn't they didn't know me for a minute, Adam.

260
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And I didn't really know Kubernetes.

261
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I just saw that there was a lot of opportunity in Kubernetes,

262
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because when I was looking at the Kubernetes ecosystem at that time,

263
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I was like, oh, my gosh, this is like OpenStack was back when OpenStack was very little.

264
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I saw this like API driven architecture.

265
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I saw a lot of people really jumping on board and bringing their own ideas

266
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and building a whole community around it.

267
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And I was like, that's the next train.

268
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Got to go, right?

269
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Like I want to go work on Kubernetes and who better to work on Kubernetes?

270
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With then CoroS.

271
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So I think that's so legit, legit and a good,

272
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a good thing to pass down to the next generation,

273
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because a lot of working in tech really is like doing a thing, doing it well.

274
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And then being like, what is the next train?

275
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Because that's kind of the cycle and how to survive.

276
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,400
I think that's almost like it would be nice to hear you elaborate

277
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on if you have any advice on that.

278
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,600
Yeah, I think I think I think you're spot on.

279
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It's like, you know, like when, you know, I feel like everybody

280
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,200
on this podcast is a lifelong learner, right?

281
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,560
Somebody who is constantly evaluating what's happening in the space,

282
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constantly evaluating what's happening, you know, like new technologies,

283
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,680
what's happening with AI, what's happening, you can hate on it.

284
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It's all good, right?

285
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,560
But like it doesn't mean you get to like completely disconnect

286
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,760
from like what's actually happening in that space, right?

287
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,200
Like you still have to like be aware of what's happening

288
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,240
in the different technology realms in which we work,

289
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,360
because really good stuff comes out of it, regardless of like, you know,

290
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,600
whether we whether we believe it's the right direction.

291
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,760
There's some really interesting stuff as a technologist to follow along.

292
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,880
And then when you see one, yeah, it's really it works with my ADHD so well.

293
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,280
Right. And then when you see one that you're like, very excited about

294
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,480
that really connects with you as a technologist, then you're like,

295
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,840
well, how do I get involved in that?

296
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,480
And honestly, there's more ways to get involved in that stuff now

297
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:29,680
than there have ever been, right?

298
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,600
Thanks to open source, thanks to big communities like the CNCF.

299
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Thanks to like thanks to just so many different.

300
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,120
There's so many there's so many doorways into these things

301
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,720
that they were when we were younger, right?

302
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,440
Like, I feel like it used to be advocated for yourself to get a job,

303
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:47,280
though, like, you know what I mean?

304
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,400
Like, because that takes a lot of guards.

305
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,400
Yeah, definitely.

306
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,280
Those communities used to be private meetups.

307
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,800
Like you had to be in a location, you had to know somebody

308
00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,680
to be able to like get in the door.

309
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,520
And even when I think back of like the the older days of technology,

310
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like,

311
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Wozniak just called up a Packard, like Hewlett Packard, right?

312
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,800
He just called them and said, hey, can I have can I have a job?

313
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,200
And they're like, yeah, like that's like one of his stories.

314
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,280
Like, yeah, I just found them in the phone book and called them and said,

315
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,920
give me a job. I said, yeah, we'll go ahead.

316
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,840
You can come on over and interview.

317
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,200
And like those sorts of like stories are like have happened over time,

318
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,840
but it's always like someone you knew that got you in the door.

319
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,200
And now like those communities have expanded and are hopefully

320
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,480
a little more friendly to let people that don't have a background say,

321
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,360
hey, if you want to show up and do some work, here's a bunch of first

322
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,720
first issues that you can you can try.

323
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,400
I love you guys. Exactly.

324
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,200
No, it's a little different when you're a woman.

325
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,760
I think that we are like really in a not even just a woman.

326
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,680
Like I think that because of the layoffs and because of where we are,

327
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,080
maybe open source might sort of be that way still.

328
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,200
But I think that it's like people want you to.

329
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:55,760
I don't know.

330
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,640
Like I feel like we're really in that point where like I know that we need

331
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,560
to earn trust right when it comes to like being engineers.

332
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,680
But like I hope it doesn't push us back into more gatekeeping ways.

333
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,200
You know what I mean? For sure.

334
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,360
Like I think that like right now, so much of the hiring is like,

335
00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:13,720
how fancy is your degree? How many like like some of like,

336
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,000
do you remember when they used to ask if you had an experience in a language

337
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,000
but they asked for experiences longer than the language existed?

338
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,000
It's that times like a hundred, you know?

339
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,760
And I think that like open source is like, yes, like I love I'm a proponent

340
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,080
of open source, but it's hard to figure out where you fit in.

341
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,080
Maybe do you guys have any advice on like maybe people that are

342
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,440
starting how to figure out where you fit into those communities?

343
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,160
Yeah, I think I mean, from my perspective, I think.

344
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,040
It comes down to those communities again, right?

345
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:52,080
If you can find an area of technology, whether that's infrastructure

346
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,760
or, you know, programming and go or solving an audio problem

347
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,960
in some program or video editing or like, you know, something like that.

348
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,960
Then the question is like, how do you actually connect with a community

349
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,280
that's based around that thing that you're interested in?

350
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,840
And even if you don't like show up at like, you know,

351
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,800
I mean, there's a couple of different ways into that.

352
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,040
Like some of those things, many of those things these days will actually have

353
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,520
like community hours and those sorts of things where you could actually show up

354
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:26,280
and just be part of it and ask questions and, you know, like kind of do the people

355
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,200
part of it and then there's other opportunities where like it's just

356
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,360
to point it out like the good first issue and that sort of stuff.

357
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,560
And what this does is it does a number of really, really good things for you as a person.

358
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,760
Like one of the things it does is it makes you actually start thinking

359
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,800
about the problems that that software system or infrastructure has, right?

360
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,000
In a way that is more real because you're actually in there trying

361
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,520
to actually solve real problems and encoding or if you're actually trying

362
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,400
to solve real problems and communication or like whatever it is that you're working on,

363
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,760
you're actually interfacing with that real, that real thing.

364
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,680
And that puts you in my mind, in my mind, it kind of puts you in a better mindset around

365
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,960
like, what is this really going to be like when I decide to do this?

366
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,920
Or if I get fortunate enough to actually have a job in it?

367
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,880
Like, what's that going to really be like?

368
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,360
Like having that exposure really changes it.

369
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:24,600
I wish that open source projects also saw the awesome opportunity in new people

370
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,360
because when you write docs, but you've used something for forever,

371
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:30,800
the docs are never good.

372
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,280
I don't care what you say, they're just not.

373
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,400
When you get new people to try your docs, they find bugs

374
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,120
that nobody will ever find if they know, right?

375
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:41,360
Like those new people are such an opportunity to make things better

376
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,400
that I wish that that's how we approach the situation.

377
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,440
Like, there's something I really liked about your website.

378
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,920
And you say, like, you talk about how you see, like, how you bring a different perspective.

379
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,600
What is it on your website?

380
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,560
It's something about, like, perspective and you make things, like, easier.

381
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,280
And I thought, like, that's so, like, legit, though.

382
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,680
As Duffy opens his website to check what it was.

383
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,080
It has been a minute since I was there.

384
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,040
Making things possible and sometimes easier.

385
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,120
Yeah, I think there's something else that you had in a talk somewhere

386
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,320
and it talked about, like, how you see perspective.

387
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:19,480
And that's so real, though, right?

388
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,880
Because there's always different ways to build things or go about things.

389
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,200
But I think the way that you switch your perspective is so real.

390
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:27,960
Yeah, for sure.

391
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,880
And I think it's also, but I do feel like it kind of comes a little bit later,

392
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,280
but that's definitely a big part of the people puzzle.

393
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,600
Another way to put that is if you can't teach a thing, then you don't understand it.

394
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,600
Oh, that's so real.

395
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,720
Right, because, like, if you, like, and that, that's where the source of that was for me.

396
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,720
And so the idea of the idea of that is that I can only ever understand

397
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,640
a problem with the tools at my disposal.

398
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,040
So my own eyes, my own brain, my own hands, I can understand that problem only so far.

399
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,440
But then as soon as I tried to describe the problem that I have to someone else

400
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,240
and they go, oh, well, what about this?

401
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,680
Or what about that? Or have you thought about this?

402
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,400
Boom, right? Like, I'm learning more in that moment

403
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,840
than I would ever have been able to learn without those questions, without that perspective.

404
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,160
But so that's why I love giving talks.

405
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:20,960
Yeah, exactly. Right.

406
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,800
People come up and they ask you questions.

407
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,120
And also, even if you're giving talks with, like, someone else,

408
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,880
just just the two of you, like, giving a talk, you have two perspectives.

409
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,400
That's already twice as much perspective as when you started, right?

410
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:33,640
Like, it's that.

411
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,000
But yeah, for me, it's like, I can only learn.

412
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:40,920
I can't learn more about a thing without somebody else asking me those questions

413
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,000
or trusting me to ask those questions.

414
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,800
That's why Paraportal Programming is also really good, too.

415
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,520
How did you get into Kubernetes?

416
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,640
Like, how did you go from, wow, this is cool.

417
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,000
And I think this is the new train to, like, being like, you are, like,

418
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,840
huge in the Kubernetes community.

419
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,440
Like, how do you get to the point of, like, learning and becoming

420
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,360
that subject matter expert in something new?

421
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,400
So, ironically, so, I mean, it was already very good

422
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,000
with infrastructure and distributed systems.

423
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,600
I spent years on Mezos, and I'd already, I've done a bunch with OpenStack.

424
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,720
I've been working on network virtualization.

425
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,480
I've done a bunch of things in distributed systems over time.

426
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,600
So, I had already built up a lot of intuition about how these systems should work.

427
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,800
And I, and also a lot of intuition around how to go and learn about a system, right?

428
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,920
So, learning about Kubernetes for me was, okay, let's understand the components.

429
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,080
Let's break them down.

430
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,880
Let's understand what each component does.

431
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,200
And then that was one thing.

432
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,480
But again, like, I can only ever understand it with my own experience, right?

433
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,560
So, the next thing I went to was, while I was at CoreOS, I joined the Kubernetes Slack.

434
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:48,920
And in the Kubernetes Slack, there's a room where everybody asks questions

435
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,560
that they have run into that they don't understand or some particular idea

436
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,200
that isn't working or whatever it is.

437
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,280
And it's still there, and it's still a very busy channel, probably one

438
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,960
of the busiest Slack channels I've ever seen.

439
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:04,240
And for a long time, like, for about six or eight months of the year

440
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,360
that I was at CoreOS before it was acquired, I was answering all of those questions.

441
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,760
So, every question that I saw in there that I thought was a question

442
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,000
that I didn't already know an answer to, I would go and figure it out and then come back

443
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,840
and give the answer and also describe how I figured it out, right?

444
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,760
Like, you know, this is how I went about finding this out,

445
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,440
or this is where I found the answer, or this is what the answer is, et cetera.

446
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,680
Like, it just kind of was answering all of those questions.

447
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,360
And that really expanded my brain on what Kubernetes says.

448
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:37,920
It really got me to a place where I understood the project, the people,

449
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,360
like what was actually happening with the code base, everything about that,

450
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,640
because I was deeply immersed in answering interesting technical questions,

451
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,840
helping solve bugs and do all of that stuff with that.

452
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:55,360
And CoreOS was very willing to let me build that presence, because it really,

453
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,120
I mean, one of the weird little industry secret things, I guess,

454
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:06,720
it's not really a secret, but if I spend my time in a public space teaching

455
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,880
and welcoming and making people feel like they're,

456
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,000
that they should be a part of the community and being technical

457
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,320
and doing all of that stuff, when I show up in a pre-sales conversation,

458
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:23,960
my job as a pre-sales engineer is to bring credibility to that conversation.

459
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,840
Job done. I've walked into the room.

460
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,560
Right? Like, people already know who I am.

461
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,680
They already know that I believe strongly in the thing I'm doing.

462
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,120
These are the things that people really want to see when they go approach

463
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,640
some new product to determine whether that product will be right fit for them,

464
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,960
or whether they will get any value out of it, right?

465
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,800
So for me, that was like, that was one of the big moments where I realized,

466
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,200
you know what, if I can do the thing that I love to do,

467
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,760
which is this whole engagement part, and it really helps me do the thing

468
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,560
that I'm paid to do, which is the pre-sales part.

469
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200
I was trying to, like, write a blog or a talk, and I was writing about, like,

470
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,480
the different ways that contributing to open sourcing community

471
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,560
is actually a great way for corporations to get a return on investment

472
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,840
and by allowing your corporate employees to have hours to work on those things.

473
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,000
And I feel like that really goes back to it.

474
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,440
I was focusing on more, like, maintaining,

475
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,480
and the fact that when you have, like, a group of multiple companies

476
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,680
maintaining software is easier, and you can do it with less people,

477
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,680
and kind of how much we get from the infrastructure that is 70% open source.

478
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,440
But that is also, like, very true.

479
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,640
Like, you've earned trust with an entire community, you know,

480
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,360
and they know that you're not just selling them something.

481
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,440
So, like, that's so amazing.

482
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,280
Have you ever struggled with imposter syndrome, Duffy?

483
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,320
Yes, I have struggled with imposter syndrome.

484
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,960
But I will say that, like, I think it's a little bit like dancing, you know?

485
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,560
It's, like, one of those things where, like, everybody,

486
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,960
like, nobody's good at it when you start out.

487
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,560
Like, it's one of, it's like, and so I think I did come to kind of a reasonable conclusion of

488
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:14,160
I don't really want to, like, let the concern that I'm not going to be good enough be a problem.

489
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,160
And so instead, I tell myself every room I walk into,

490
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,800
every problem I engage with, I can improve that problem.

491
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,920
Right? And that primes my brain to think that no matter the situation,

492
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,400
I'm going to leave it better than I found it.

493
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,680
Right? As opposed to allowing my brain to prime itself in which it'll say,

494
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,320
you're going to walk in here and fall on your ass, right?

495
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,880
Like, I mean, like, you know, instead I'm going to walk in here

496
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,640
and I'm going to make it a better situation than it was when I, when I walked, before I walked in.

497
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:50,240
I love that.

498
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,600
And I'm not saying that that works for everybody.

499
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,440
I'm certainly not, I like, I understand that anxiety is a very different thing.

500
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,720
And I'm not, I'm not trying to say that, like, all you have to do is this.

501
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:02,960
Oh, no, that's still how you do it.

502
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,760
No, it's just that being, like, that's not where I'm going at all.

503
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,360
Yeah.

504
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,200
You know, like, simply, one simply just decides.

505
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,720
So I'm going to tell, no, it's not really that, you know.

506
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,360
But I like that.

507
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:19,040
I love the quote of, like, leaving the world a better place than, like, how you found it, though.

508
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,800
So I like how that kind of ties into that.

509
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:24,720
Yeah.

510
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,440
So that was how I got into the expertise side of the Kubernetes side of things,

511
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,880
which was really a blast.

512
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,480
It was like such a big learning time.

513
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,480
And then I went from CoroS when it was acquired by Red Hat.

514
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,720
And it became basically the thing we were building at CoroS was called Tectonic.

515
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,560
And that became OpenShift 3.

516
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,360
Is that right?

517
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:46,400
3 was the first.

518
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,240
I think 4 was the first one that shipped with the operators that Tectonic had.

519
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,320
And then, but I never worked for Red Hat.

520
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,160
Like, I decided that I didn't want to continue with Red Hat.

521
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,800
And so on my way to New York to go and interview for a job at Red Hat,

522
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,800
I also stopped at Heptio and interviewed there.

523
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,400
And I met Chris Nova, rest in peace.

524
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,360
And I met Joe Vita and Craig McClecky and so many amazing folks.

525
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,320
And I, so I interviewed there and then I flew to New York for this other thing.

526
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,600
And I decided already that I was going to go to Heptio.

527
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,200
I wasn't going to go to work for, but I hadn't received an offer yet.

528
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,360
And so I'm in New York.

529
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,000
I've decided I don't want to do this.

530
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,440
My very good friend Stephen Augustus is like working with at CoroS with me.

531
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,280
And, and Stephen decides that the job that I don't want is the one that he wants.

532
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,880
And I'm like, oh, we're making this happen.

533
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:47,360
So I spent the whole week positioning Stephen, right?

534
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,800
Like basically showing that I trust Stephen implicitly, right?

535
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,520
Like everything I did that week was really kind of setting up that situation.

536
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,680
And then at the end of the week, I was like, you know,

537
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,200
I think this really isn't going to be for me.

538
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:00,720
I'm going to go and do something else.

539
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,120
But you should really consider Stephen for this role.

540
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,920
And, and they're like, well, we can't because you have it.

541
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,000
So the only way that we could do that is if you resign.

542
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,000
I love there's two things that we need to pull out of this.

543
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,240
One, Chris Nova's like her legacy is so amazing

544
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,960
that it's come up with so many people on this podcast

545
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,640
that I didn't know her personally.

546
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,320
But I feel like I almost did by the fact that she's touched so many other people.

547
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,200
Also, the fact that you played it for it and helped out your friend

548
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,360
and like took care of your friend is so legit.

549
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,440
Like that is like having good friends in this community

550
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,640
and like helping your friend out is just like,

551
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,080
obviously Stephen's amazing at things, you know what I mean?

552
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,480
But the fact that you knew like, hey, this isn't for me,

553
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,280
but I had known someone like that would be perfect for this.

554
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Can we have more of that?

555
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,080
Because that is so top tier, right?

556
00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:00,080
And I know without reservation that Stephen would absolutely do the same thing

557
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,080
in the opposite thing, right?

558
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,000
And it really even wasn't about that for me.

559
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,280
It was just about the fact that I was like,

560
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,120
I see this opportunity to help my friend.

561
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,160
I'm going to go do that.

562
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,360
And then so that left us with a situation where I'm now without a job,

563
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,320
without pros, I have a prospects, right?

564
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,160
Like I'm waiting for an offer or whatever,

565
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,840
but I'm without a job, I'm in New York, I have my flight back,

566
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,760
I have my flight back, but I'm no longer an employee of CoroS or Red Hat.

567
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,600
I've turned in my laptop, I'm like, well, that's the show, you know?

568
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,280
And then I fly back home and my wife,

569
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,800
who has got to be one of the most patient people on the earth, right?

570
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,000
Because she already knows that I'm in this tumultuous situation

571
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,880
where I'm like likely things are going to change pretty soon and pretty rapidly.

572
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,560
But she's like, you know, I'm good with it, whatever.

573
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,000
Like, you know, just let me know how it's going.

574
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,040
Give me some heads up, you know?

575
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,920
And I'm like, well, I didn't work out, you know?

576
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,960
Like, I'm in New York, and I'm quitting like right in five minutes.

577
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,680
I'm going to quit, like, now.

578
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,240
Duffy was like, so what happened was...

579
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:07,440
She's like, where are you going?

580
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:08,400
Like, what's your next job?

581
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,920
And I'm like, well, I'm working on it, you know?

582
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,120
That must have been just a tiny bit scary, Duffy.

583
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,400
It was probably safer for you to be in New York at the time.

584
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:18,800
A little bit.

585
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:25,280
But she's very, like, she strongly believes that I will work it out,

586
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,040
which is one of those things where I think...

587
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,480
You don't have that in a relationship, Duffy.

588
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,280
So cute.

589
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,240
It is so cute.

590
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,280
It's interesting, too, that you mentioned, because like,

591
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,240
I feel like in at least the cloud native space,

592
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,760
Heptio had the same CoreOS vibe, right?

593
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:42,960
Like a pre-acquisition.

594
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,120
It was kind of the spiritual successor of where would CoreOS go next?

595
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:48,640
The spiritual successor, I love that.

596
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,360
And that was very much a Heptio kind of...

597
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,280
Even at CoreOS, like, Joe came to CoreOS in the SF office,

598
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:56,400
and I met him there first.

599
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,800
And I met Chris there, and I met a bunch of other...

600
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,440
They knew that they were closely connected, even as companies.

601
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,000
When Heptio was starting up, right?

602
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,800
Like, Joe came and talked to Brandon and Alex Pulvi

603
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,960
about, like, what they were doing.

604
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,720
It was all the way open between the two companies.

605
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:17,860
Sure.

606
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:19,920
So that was definitely part of it for sure.

607
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,520
I agree with you on the...

608
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,880
However, I will say that at CoreOS,

609
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,360
there was so many things that CoreOS were working on,

610
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,040
that I felt like it was only...

611
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,120
Like, as a technologist, I was like,

612
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,880
it's only a matter of time until something that we're working on

613
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,360
becomes the thing that pays the bills, right?

614
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,360
Like, that is a huge move forward.

615
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,720
At Heptio, it didn't really have that same sense.

616
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,720
Because at the end of the day, at Heptio,

617
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,040
I felt like I, personally, was the product, right?

618
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,560
It was myself, Josh Rosso, there were several of us, right?

619
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,960
But, like, fundamentally, Carl Danly, like,

620
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:01,920
we were the product.

621
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,000
We were the field engineering team at Heptio,

622
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,920
and we were the thing that Heptio was putting in the market.

623
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,080
Right, because Heptio was a consulting company,

624
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,360
not a product company.

625
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,960
But they wanted to be a product company.

626
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,120
The thesis behind Heptio was,

627
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,040
they had so much expertise already around Kubernetes

628
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,240
that they could come to market as a consulting company,

629
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,000
use the learning from that to develop products

630
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,360
and become a product company.

631
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,080
The interesting challenge is that,

632
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,240
in the market that we all operate in,

633
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,520
if you present yourself as a consulting company,

634
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,520
you are henceforth seen as a consulting company.

635
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,080
You can't just one day change your mind,

636
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,920
wake up and be a product company.

637
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,640
Like, that's, it's a very different go-to-market,

638
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,840
it's a very different, like,

639
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,440
it's a lot of very key intrinsic differences

640
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,040
in the way that people even think of you

641
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,360
when they're out there, like, looking for who,

642
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,200
who's going to help them do whatever it is.

643
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,400
That's also really interesting,

644
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,960
because it's almost like the chicken before the egg,

645
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,240
or the egg before the chicken,

646
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,640
because you're just assuming that this knowledge

647
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,320
will then create a product.

648
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,560
But what if the product's already an open source product

649
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,720
and they're just then consulting on it?

650
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,720
I mean, to be fair, like, some of the products

651
00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:15,120
that we developed at Papdeo are still going strong.

652
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,920
And their company's long, you know, like Valero,

653
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,640
a lot of the early stuff,

654
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,640
a lot of the stuff that Gateway API is based on

655
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,240
came from Contour.

656
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,120
Like, there's a bunch of stuff that we worked on there

657
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,440
that, like, really became the way forward

658
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,960
for a lot of interesting technology in our space.

659
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,880
And do you think just the way that it started

660
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,480
just didn't set that up for success,

661
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:37,920
even though the product was good?

662
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,320
I think that, I think that really,

663
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,240
I think the company itself was not a product company,

664
00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:49,440
despite the desire to be a product company.

665
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,680
I think the company itself went to market

666
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,240
and did everything else as a consulting company.

667
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,600
And when they tried to make that,

668
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,600
and they, I think they were,

669
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,680
we were kind of like having conversations

670
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,000
and stuff around like what it would take

671
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,000
to kind of change that when we were acquired by VMware.

672
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,000
Oh, okay.

673
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,600
So, two very fast years.

674
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,400
I actually got acquired at CoreOS and at Heptio,

675
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,960
both in the same tax year, which was dumb.

676
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:21,920
Wow.

677
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:22,560
Yeah.

678
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,600
You're a poor accountant.

679
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:24,480
It was fast.

680
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,400
And the VMware side of it,

681
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,080
because like VMware had,

682
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,400
where they turned the Heptio stuff into Tanzu,

683
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,480
or they had Tanzu in it,

684
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,400
I don't remember exactly the,

685
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,040
the before, before the Heptio acquisition,

686
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,720
VMware and VMware and Pivotal worked together

687
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,000
to develop a technology that was called PKS,

688
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,760
or Pivotal Governing to Service.

689
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:52,000
And that was based on Bosch.

690
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:52,960
And it was like their own,

691
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,000
the thing that they had built

692
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,200
in conjunction with Pivotal.

693
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,360
Pivotal, if you weren't aware,

694
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,360
Pivotal was a spin out of VMware.

695
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,840
So the relationship between the two companies

696
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,000
has always been very strong.

697
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,720
So, so that's what they had developed before it.

698
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:07,600
And when we came in,

699
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,600
and we started a brand new effort,

700
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,720
which was Tanzu.

701
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,680
Tanzu was all of the work of Heptio

702
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,120
coming into VMware

703
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,600
and creating this new construct

704
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,040
of like, how are we going to build

705
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,400
a single control plane

706
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,400
for multiple Kubernetes clusters?

707
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,280
That was actually a product

708
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,680
that we were developing as a product at Heptio

709
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:26,480
when we were required.

710
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,880
It was a, you know,

711
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,800
working with the VMware team

712
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,960
that was actually trying to develop a

713
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,200
Kubernetes offering on top of vSphere.

714
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,200
And that was at the time

715
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,480
it was called Project Pacific.

716
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:41,920
So we were working with them

717
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:42,960
to kind of turn that into

718
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,480
more of a cluster API model.

719
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,000
Because at the time in the original design,

720
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,040
they were thinking of each vSphere machine,

721
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,480
each vSphere host,

722
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,040
as a single cubelet,

723
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:53,760
which was wild.

724
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:55,760
And then they were like,

725
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:56,560
yeah, but you could,

726
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:57,600
because you're, you know,

727
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,040
a VMware offering,

728
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,480
you could say, you know,

729
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,840
you could actually develop

730
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,720
a different mechanism

731
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:03,760
leveraging cluster API

732
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:04,640
that will allow you to create

733
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,240
task-based clusters

734
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:07,200
on top of that whole thing,

735
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:07,840
instead,

736
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,040
with a slightly different interface.

737
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:09,680
So we worked with them

738
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:10,400
to develop that.

739
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:12,080
We did a bunch of there.

740
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,000
And then Pivotal was

741
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,440
acquired back into VMware,

742
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,360
which was a Pivotal moment.

743
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,000
That's wild.

744
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:21,920
Yeah, if you will.

745
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,040
Oh my God, Duffy,

746
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,480
just dad joked you.

747
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:27,600
Like, he just,

748
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,120
he just dad joked you.

749
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:29,440
I mean,

750
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,120
the thing about dad jokes

751
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:31,920
is they have to be bad,

752
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,360
but also they have to be easy,

753
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:33,600
right?

754
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,720
It just has to be right there

755
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:35,520
and he just grabbed it.

756
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,160
So it's totally,

757
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,280
it was so good though.

758
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:37,920
Like, I just,

759
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,120
I'm so proud of you, Duffy.

760
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,720
It was definitely a Pivotal moment.

761
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:41,280
It was so,

762
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,000
it was wild.

763
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,760
Y'all met Justin's face.

764
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,160
He was like,

765
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,280
did you just dad joke me

766
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:45,680
on my own?

767
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,000
But like, yeah, it's great.

768
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:50,800
So they came in,

769
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:52,240
we were,

770
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:53,520
Heptio was,

771
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:53,920
I think,

772
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,520
like maybe 75,

773
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,040
80 people when we were acquired.

774
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,400
And Pivotal was

775
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:03,760
an entire organization.

776
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,560
With offices in multiple states,

777
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,960
like it was a lot of people.

778
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,600
And so what that,

779
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,360
and VMware,

780
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,080
for all of its strengths as a company,

781
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,440
honestly, I've never met a company

782
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,080
that takes better care of its employees

783
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,000
than VMware did.

784
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,360
And I could have stories about that.

785
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,320
But they didn't really have a clear,

786
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,600
concise vision

787
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:28,800
of how

788
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,600
bringing Pivotal in

789
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,960
and having Heptio there

790
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,080
and working on Tanzu

791
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:35,920
would all come together.

792
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,280
Now, part of that was

793
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,640
that VMware was fighting for its life.

794
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,040
It was all happening right before,

795
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,720
like the whole broad company.

796
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:45,760
And like,

797
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:46,800
it's hard to really have

798
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,360
a good picture

799
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,480
of what the road ahead looks like

800
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:49,360
when you're realizing

801
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,640
there isn't much of it left, right?

802
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,640
It's kind of terrifying.

803
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,000
So what happened here was,

804
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:56,480
like,

805
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,960
it really became a very big mess.

806
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,200
Like with people on both sides,

807
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,440
Heptio, Pivotal, VMware,

808
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:04,480
all trying to figure out

809
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,920
what was going to happen all at once,

810
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,560
but not doing it in a way that was cohesive.

811
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120
And it left a very big mess

812
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,440
when the whole Broadcom thing happened.

813
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:14,480
Yeah.

814
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,800
I mean, they also just jackhammered the road.

815
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:17,440
I was going to say,

816
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,280
like, do you think that contributed

817
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:19,920
to the, like,

818
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,000
final fallout of how things just,

819
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,320
I feel like a lot of acquisitions, like,

820
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:28,800
get spicy,

821
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,800
but people were so upset with VMware

822
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,440
when after the Broadcom thing.

823
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,000
You know what I mean?

824
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:36,240
Like,

825
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,080
I think the challenge is that,

826
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,320
and I mean, it's a fascinating thing.

827
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:41,760
Some of this is stuff

828
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,680
that we all know intrinsically, right?

829
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,480
Like, but what it comes down to is,

830
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,960
as an industry in general,

831
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,600
people who buy a hypervisor,

832
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,200
everybody across the entire world,

833
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,440
like automotive companies, banks,

834
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,400
financial companies,

835
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,800
everyone had built a high trust relationship

836
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:06,400
with VMware.

837
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,120
And VMware had gone to market

838
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,880
with its sales and everything else

839
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,360
to really support that function,

840
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,920
really support a high trust relationship

841
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,600
with its customers.

842
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:19,760
Broadcom,

843
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,320
they don't have that.

844
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:22,880
And they,

845
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:23,600
and it's not really,

846
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,320
like, in the company guide to do it.

847
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,960
So when this acquisition happened,

848
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,600
basically it became a situation where,

849
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,760
like, I, even though I had a really high trust

850
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:34,880
relationship with VMware,

851
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,560
I don't, like, the other side of the table

852
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:39,920
really doesn't understand,

853
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,680
A, that relationship at all,

854
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,600
or know how to provide me something

855
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,440
that allows me to understand the way forward.

856
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,680
And so it's one of those things where it's like,

857
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,040
if you put all of your,

858
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,200
if you put some key focus area of your technology

859
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:56,880
that keeps you going as a company

860
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,640
in just one place,

861
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,800
and you're not paying attention

862
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:01,920
to what's happening in the space,

863
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,280
you're not, like, we're learning,

864
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:03,840
hey, you know what,

865
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,920
I feel like this is actually a risk

866
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,320
because I'm only counting on VMware

867
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,040
to do this job.

868
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,360
If I just believe in my mind

869
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:12,800
that VMware will be there forever,

870
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,520
I might be making a mistake, right?

871
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:16,960
Like, and that was like-

872
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,320
Kind of gets back to how you're talking

873
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,320
about seeing that next train too, you know?

874
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:21,120
Yeah.

875
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,440
I also think it's interesting that

876
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,000
I think a lot of times we get two companies

877
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,560
that align on technology, right?

878
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,120
And they want to acquire, based off of technology,

879
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,520
and their leadership principles

880
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,440
and their kind of like who they are

881
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,720
is an essence of a company

882
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:38,320
can be very different, right?

883
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,080
So even though their technology

884
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,120
is married together well,

885
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,360
they're as a company,

886
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,760
and like the way that they interact

887
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:46,720
with customers,

888
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,520
the way that they kind of like,

889
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:50,880
how you kind of like talked about

890
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,320
how when you're a product company

891
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:53,440
versus consulting company,

892
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,320
like a lot of that,

893
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,240
I think people don't realize

894
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:57,520
how much that can affect

895
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,520
an acquisition or a project transition

896
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:00,480
or a pivot, right?

897
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,880
Yeah, I completely agree.

898
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,360
Yeah, I mean, like right around that same time

899
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,640
I had this idea in my head

900
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:07,840
that I was like, could you imagine

901
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,960
if instead of Broadcom acquiring VMware,

902
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:13,760
if it was Google?

903
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:16,640
I actually think that would have been

904
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:17,760
dangerous and fire,

905
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,520
but like in kind of a good way,

906
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:20,160
you know what I mean?

907
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,080
No, but like, it would have made them so powerful

908
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,880
and because people like you said

909
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:27,680
in their minds,

910
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,120
they were going to use VMware forever.

911
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,880
They were locked in like they,

912
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,720
and they knew to a certain extent

913
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:34,160
that they were locked in

914
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,080
and usually people get real nervous

915
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,600
and nervous about licenses

916
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:38,880
that they can't get out of

917
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,880
and people walked into it just like,

918
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,680
just, you know what I mean?

919
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,640
But also out of every company

920
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,480
that has the least amount of trust,

921
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:49,760
like Google is a meme

922
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,640
of how they deprecate things.

923
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,240
You know that Justin was going to,

924
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:54,640
this is this is when you don't intense Google

925
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,920
and Justin's going to be like,

926
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:57,600
and this is where I'm like,

927
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,800
this would have been so fascinating

928
00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,680
if it had happened that way.

929
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,280
Like in the universe where

930
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,920
VMware was acquired by Google,

931
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:04,000
it would have been-

932
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:04,720
It's like Marvel,

933
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,360
the different universes and timelines,

934
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:08,640
like what was happening, yeah.

935
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:11,200
Because like,

936
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,640
because the part of the challenge

937
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,400
that Google has continually,

938
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,280
right, is that they have no-

939
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,240
Is renaming things?

940
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,480
No, they don't have that.

941
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:19,600
They also don't have like,

942
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:20,960
they don't have any way to

943
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,920
instantiate that trust relationship

944
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:24,800
that we were talking about.

945
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:25,760
Right?

946
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,440
They, like if that,

947
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:28,720
but if they had bought like,

948
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:30,480
literally an entire enterprise

949
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,480
sales force that knew how to do that,

950
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,080
it would be a really very,

951
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,440
it would be a very interesting thing

952
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,240
to see how that shaped-

953
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,320
I honestly think tech companies in general

954
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,840
are going to struggle with the trust

955
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:42,560
going forward.

956
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,160
Like there's been such a shake-up

957
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,840
and it's been such a turbulent time

958
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,760
that I think we forget

959
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,000
how much trust has to do with it.

960
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:50,960
You know?

961
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:51,760
And even, I mean,

962
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,200
the Broadcom thing is a great example.

963
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,120
Like it's really changed the world

964
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:56,320
for a lot of companies.

965
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,840
Not just in how they see the hypervisor,

966
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:00,960
but how they see networking,

967
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,000
how they see firewalling,

968
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,680
how they see file storage,

969
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,280
how they see like all of the things

970
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,040
that they have to concern themselves with

971
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,240
as a company have fundamentally changed

972
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:11,920
because they realize,

973
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,600
oh, I was making the bet

974
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,200
that this company was going to be around

975
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,240
and I can't really make that bet anymore.

976
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,280
I think if you also take that

977
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:22,560
and then the way that people

978
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,640
are going to want to be so cloud-agnostic

979
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:25,760
and then are like,

980
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,760
you know, like people are like

981
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,600
in this new era of

982
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:30,320
do I want to...

983
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,200
Also, I think that like

984
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,400
Justin's going to disagree with me,

985
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,400
but I think people romanticize on-prem.

986
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,000
And it's not that I don't think it's worthy,

987
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:39,680
but I just think that we're piping it up

988
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:40,640
a little bit more than

989
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,200
people want to take into account

990
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:44,320
how much that takes,

991
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,440
which I think when you know

992
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,120
what you're doing, it is good, right?

993
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,760
Like, and I think Kolo is a very good

994
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,240
proponent and option.

995
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,240
But I think that it's very much

996
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:56,320
spicy headlines right now, you know?

997
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,320
And like because we are in just

998
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,720
a spicy headline AI

999
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:01,760
and all of the things,

1000
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,600
like it's really interesting.

1001
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:04,800
Like I can't tell if like

1002
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,040
I'm depressed and we're all doomed

1003
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,720
or if this is going to be the most like

1004
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:10,480
fire amazing innovation

1005
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:11,280
that's going to come out

1006
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,920
because as people get so high level

1007
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,640
about things,

1008
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,640
there's also these cool like

1009
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,080
new cloud companies coming out

1010
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:18,880
or you know what I mean?

1011
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:19,760
Like, so I think it's like

1012
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,080
we are almost giving people trust

1013
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,520
issues with technology right now.

1014
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,160
I do find it funny,

1015
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,840
like the whole vendor lock in thing

1016
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,760
wasn't an issue until the cloud

1017
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:30,320
when they're like,

1018
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,600
hey, if I'm going to AWS,

1019
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:32,400
I want to make sure I can come out.

1020
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:33,200
That's not true.

1021
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,960
Oracle Database is where the Oracle

1022
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,800
Database is where that was like

1023
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,200
vendor lockout 101.

1024
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,960
But like Oracle Database was like,

1025
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,880
just like we have to have the biggest

1026
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:43,360
best thing.

1027
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:44,960
So we're paying the millions of dollars.

1028
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,280
Oracle Database is Sun and Java

1029
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:48,400
and all kinds of things.

1030
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:49,920
And then wait,

1031
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,040
there's another layer.

1032
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,800
Talk about how open source was like,

1033
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,080
we're going to be open source.

1034
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,280
Now you have a license

1035
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:56,320
and you can't use all this stuff

1036
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:57,680
you contributed to.

1037
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,560
We are in the like FAFO of like

1038
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,440
how much you can get away with.

1039
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,160
You know what I mean?

1040
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:04,800
Yeah.

1041
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,400
Like just what we were talking

1042
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,440
about on Blue Sky the other day,

1043
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,960
talking about if we would like to,

1044
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,040
like what is the basis of like,

1045
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,400
do you run your own server?

1046
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,600
Are we having it in the cloud?

1047
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,960
Like we are at a point

1048
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,160
where we are using things

1049
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:17,520
that we've never used before.

1050
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:18,640
So it's not as easy as,

1051
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,320
okay, I'll just run my own servers anymore

1052
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,000
because how are you making those servers redundant?

1053
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,360
How are you doing all this?

1054
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,480
But we also have realized how

1055
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,160
giving one company too much trust

1056
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:29,120
has screwed us over.

1057
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,960
So it's like this new kind of

1058
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,600
where do we go forward in open source?

1059
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:34,960
Like what are we contributing to?

1060
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,320
What are we putting our,

1061
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:37,680
like what are we betting on?

1062
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,040
Because it could be licensed

1063
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:40,560
or what are we doing with the cloud?

1064
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:41,920
Like I really think that we're...

1065
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,600
I find that trust story interesting

1066
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,440
on both the small and large level.

1067
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:46,880
Yeah, because they're two different levels.

1068
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,360
Lots of giant companies

1069
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,480
deprecating things,

1070
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:51,520
changing pricing models,

1071
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:52,240
doing whatever.

1072
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:53,200
It's like you're locked in,

1073
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,960
we're going to then now just like screw you over.

1074
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,720
And the small companies that say,

1075
00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:58,080
hey, you've been using this for free.

1076
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,440
Now we're rug pulling you

1077
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:00,560
and we're changing the license

1078
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:01,520
and you have to pay us for it.

1079
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:02,960
Like in both cases,

1080
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,400
trust is eroding on the...

1081
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,080
People are like, I can't trust the startup

1082
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,840
because what if they disappear?

1083
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,600
It's like, oh, but you can't trust the large company either

1084
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,960
because they're going to deprecate it

1085
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,080
or charge you more or whatever.

1086
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:13,280
Because for a minute there,

1087
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,280
large companies were the scary thing

1088
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:16,800
and everybody was starting to like,

1089
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:18,080
put trust into startups.

1090
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,160
People that I know that not just people

1091
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:21,760
that are using large companies

1092
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:22,480
are going to startups,

1093
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,520
but people that are fanged resumes

1094
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:26,720
were like, nah, dude.

1095
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:27,760
And all go like,

1096
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,960
we are seeing this crazy migration and change.

1097
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:32,400
It's wild.

1098
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,160
I mean, there's a third part of this,

1099
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,760
which is that like foundations

1100
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,280
are a part of this puzzle too, right?

1101
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,280
So foundations are a situation

1102
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,040
where they might say like,

1103
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:46,000
we the foundation in our bylaws,

1104
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,920
we cannot change the license of software,

1105
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,120
but you can donate it to us

1106
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,880
like CNCF, the next foundation,

1107
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:53,760
these sorts of things.

1108
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,040
You can't move a project that's in the CNCF

1109
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,160
from an open source license to another license.

1110
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,600
I think that's going to be interesting too.

1111
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,000
Yeah, but you can't change it.

1112
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,560
But then I also think of like Rocket, right?

1113
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:09,920
Like it's a core OS project

1114
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,560
that was a CNCF project that was still there.

1115
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:13,920
It just got, it just went away

1116
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,680
because at some point you still need people to show up.

1117
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:16,720
Nobody was working on it, right?

1118
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:17,520
Yeah.

1119
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,240
But I think that's what we're going to like really get into,

1120
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:21,760
like because if you think about it,

1121
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,840
like people don't know what open source to trust,

1122
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,920
are you going to take it from underneath us

1123
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,600
and like after we contribute to it?

1124
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:28,960
And like it's,

1125
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,280
I really think that open source is the way forward

1126
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:32,880
because like the fact,

1127
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,200
like when you have four of the biggest companies

1128
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,120
that do whatever you're trying to do,

1129
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,120
and you're all maintaining the same software

1130
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,560
and catching the same CVEs, you know what I mean?

1131
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:43,760
That's a force multiplier

1132
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,840
that you cannot create.

1133
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,880
Like it would cost so much money to do that, right?

1134
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:49,760
But at the same time,

1135
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:50,880
if we can't trust each other

1136
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,880
and we can't meet in the middle somewhere,

1137
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,320
and just if you look at it,

1138
00:48:54,320 --> 00:49:00,080
like the CNCF and like the Linux foundation

1139
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,280
are kind of like these new,

1140
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,360
like they're the basis

1141
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,520
in which these new foundations are starting.

1142
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,080
Rust very much took that game plan

1143
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,840
and saw what was happening,

1144
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,680
what was good, what was bad to build that.

1145
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,440
So it's like, it's just interesting.

1146
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:14,800
Like we are truly like,

1147
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,480
if you look at how much infrastructure

1148
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,960
and just tech has grown in the last 10 years,

1149
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,640
but now it's like almost like,

1150
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,280
I don't even know how you make it faster,

1151
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,680
but we are in this crazy transition period.

1152
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:27,520
It's true, yeah, for sure.

1153
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,480
Yeah, I think the, I mean, to your point,

1154
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,640
like I guess to both of your points,

1155
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,840
I am an engineer working on an open source project.

1156
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,120
The project reaches some level of success.

1157
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:45,200
I, as an engineer or the author of that project,

1158
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,160
have a decision to make.

1159
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,080
Do I change the license of that

1160
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,520
to make more money off of that project?

1161
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,840
Do I contribute that project

1162
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,360
to an open source foundation

1163
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,560
so that that eventuality is protected from,

1164
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,160
but continue doing the work

1165
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,160
against that project as I move forward?

1166
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:04,320
Do I find some middle ground

1167
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,600
where I could donate the project,

1168
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,240
but still sell an enterprise offering of that project?

1169
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:09,440
Like there's this,

1170
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,160
it's a really interesting time to your point.

1171
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,200
And it's really hard

1172
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,600
because like all of these answers are correct.

1173
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:19,760
Right, like I worked on this idea.

1174
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,560
The idea was it was going to help me pay my bills.

1175
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,080
I need to buy food.

1176
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,680
I need to pay rent, right?

1177
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,560
That is so true.

1178
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,400
I love working on this thing, you know, but like.

1179
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,840
I have the infrastructure, you know,

1180
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,680
like if a small company is going to do something,

1181
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,480
they've got to have the money to continue the product.

1182
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,800
So it's a tough one because it's like, you know,

1183
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,320
from the outside, it's all,

1184
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,280
it's very easy for us to judge the actions of others

1185
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,200
in relation to all of this.

1186
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:47,680
When we think, you know,

1187
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,400
I trusted you to do this and this is what happened.

1188
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:52,720
But at the end of the day, it's like,

1189
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,280
it's not even really about business.

1190
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,120
It's about how do I put food on my table?

1191
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,520
I think we've got to find that middle ground though.

1192
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,240
Like the engineers and the companies,

1193
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:05,120
they have to come or just open source and companies

1194
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,560
have to come to that medical ground

1195
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,880
because we have to make it sustainable.

1196
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,800
Like the bottom line is 70% of infrastructure

1197
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,240
comes from open source.

1198
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:16,160
So companies need open source

1199
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,160
and open source needs the money from companies

1200
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,640
and the manpower and trying to find a way

1201
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,960
to make that work is going to be so important.

1202
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,280
I really admire your career,

1203
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,120
like how you've navigated it

1204
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,200
and you've just stayed in open source

1205
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,120
but also got to like, I don't know,

1206
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,520
I just feel like you get to work on so many amazing,

1207
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,560
high level, cool ways to like move the industry forward.

1208
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,080
What advice would you give to like me or other people

1209
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,200
or just yourself like throughout your,

1210
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,360
like what do you wish you knew throughout your career?

1211
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:46,880
Like when you were picking jobs

1212
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,440
or just pivoting and learning things,

1213
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,840
like what do you feel like you learned

1214
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,600
if you could give yourself advice?

1215
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,080
When I was very young, my dad was a chef

1216
00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:59,360
and he was also a barber

1217
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,680
and he was also a Vietnam vet.

1218
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,960
He did a, and I remember us having a conversation

1219
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,040
when I was kind of starting to get into

1220
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,480
the working part of period of my life

1221
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,080
where I was like working with him in the kitchen

1222
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,840
and I was doing all those other stuff.

1223
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,720
I remember him telling me, you should get paid

1224
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:16,800
for what you know, not what you do.

1225
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,120
And that really shaped things for me

1226
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,080
because it really helped me understand that like,

1227
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,840
when I look forward to like what I want to go do as a career,

1228
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,160
when I look forward, and I've jumped around a lot.

1229
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,320
I've been a bartender, I've been a radio station DJ,

1230
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,720
I've been a bouncer, I've done personal security,

1231
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:38,160
I've worked in tech across a variety of different areas

1232
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,560
and in each of them, I was realizing that the thing

1233
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,240
that differentiated me in that job

1234
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,000
was that I want to know more.

1235
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,920
I love that curiosity, which comes back to something

1236
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,120
that Justin said about like, even in this new age of AI,

1237
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,760
like curiosity is going to be what sets people apart.

1238
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:59,600
Exactly, that's always going to be your differentiator, right?

1239
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,600
Like, and it's hard, I mean, it's hard, it's a hard thing

1240
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,560
because to be fair, like, I've been at it

1241
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,160
for quite a long time at this point,

1242
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,800
so it's just intrinsic in the way that I see the world

1243
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:14,400
that I want to know more about a thing,

1244
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:15,360
I'm going to go learn it.

1245
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,440
That's just how it works for me, right?

1246
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,440
But it wasn't always that way.

1247
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,560
And I think if I were to give myself advice,

1248
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,040
it's just to embrace that curiosity,

1249
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,560
embrace that mindset because that's the thing

1250
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:30,320
that moves you forward.

1251
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,840
That's the thing that makes people see a bigger picture,

1252
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,240
whether it's yourself that sees that bigger picture

1253
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:37,600
or it's the people that you're working with

1254
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,880
to see that bigger picture, that curiosity that you bring to it

1255
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,200
and that drive to learn more about different things

1256
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:46,240
that are happening in the space.

1257
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:48,480
Can't say enough about it.

1258
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,760
And a lot of times at the whole, like,

1259
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:51,120
what's the next train, right?

1260
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:52,960
Like, I tell people, like, what are we going at?

1261
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:53,920
Like, don't worry about it.

1262
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:55,840
What are you interested in now, right?

1263
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:57,440
Like, whatever you are interested in now

1264
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,040
is the thing you should go chase

1265
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:00,480
because that's the thing you're going to be driven

1266
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:01,600
to learn more about.

1267
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,040
And if I've learned anything in my career,

1268
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:04,400
it's that everything is cyclical, right?

1269
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,520
Like, all the networking stuff you did 15 years ago

1270
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:08,960
came right back at you in Kubernetes.

1271
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:09,920
It's so wild.

1272
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,600
It's like a, like, heck is like a bunch of,

1273
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,520
like, it's a hype cycle.

1274
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,160
But like, really, everything new is old and old is new

1275
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:19,200
and it's just wild.

1276
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,040
Yeah, that cycle is a wheel.

1277
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:22,320
And as you're learning one thing,

1278
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:23,840
it's going to come back around at some point.

1279
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,760
And you're like, hey, I remember how to debug this

1280
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:26,960
from 10 years ago.

1281
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,480
Even if it's not the same tooling,

1282
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,160
you still kind of remember the fundamentals.

1283
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,400
Except for when you look at code that you wrote last week.

1284
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,800
That person's an idiot.

1285
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,800
And that person should have never written that code.

1286
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,360
It's just never, never look at the commit,

1287
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:40,400
get blamed and see yourself.

1288
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,160
Yeah, it's the worst.

1289
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,160
Also, I think it's so funny that Duffy mentioned

1290
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,560
that you, like, did security or something.

1291
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,440
Dude, Duffy is the kindest, sweetest person

1292
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:50,800
and then you meet him in real life

1293
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,000
and Duffy is so tall.

1294
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:53,760
Like, hello.

1295
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,400
But you're still like the sweetest person.

1296
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,560
And I said, I think the other part of it is, like,

1297
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:06,880
all these different technologies are one thing,

1298
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,880
but you know the one through line for me,

1299
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,160
as I'm sure it is both of you, is people.

1300
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:13,760
I love the people.

1301
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,240
I know it's weird because I don't really like people, people.

1302
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:18,480
But the tech people, like, oh my God.

1303
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:23,440
Like, being able to engage with people around those things

1304
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,280
that you're interested in, like, that's the other,

1305
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:27,280
like if there's one part of the puzzle

1306
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,760
that is literally consistently through lines

1307
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,200
all the way through everything I've done,

1308
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,080
it's, I have to work with those people.

1309
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:35,440
I have to figure out what makes them tick.

1310
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,080
I have to figure out what, you know, what they find interesting.

1311
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,720
And I have to, like, figure out how to communicate with them.

1312
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:44,400
And that's a puzzle I've been playing with my whole life.

1313
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,160
That's what I love about Linux.

1314
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,120
Linux, I mean, it might be the, like,

1315
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,560
every now and then we get some grouchy old dudes.

1316
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,520
But, like, it is just, oh, I love the community.

1317
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,040
Like, if you want to see people, like,

1318
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,200
hardcore, nerd out about some stuff,

1319
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,240
and just customize things to absolute, like, chaotic, like...

1320
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:06,640
Just because they can.

1321
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:06,960
Yes!

1322
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,520
Like, oh my God, like, I'm either, like, oh,

1323
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,440
people, like, I don't want to go to the grocery store,

1324
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,200
but get me, like, a Linux conference,

1325
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,520
and I'm just, like, I want to talk to all the people.

1326
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,360
Like, I asked Carrie the other day.

1327
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,840
I was like, who's the golden retriever,

1328
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,440
and who's the black cat in our friendship?

1329
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:24,960
And she looked at me, Justin.

1330
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,640
It was offensive how she looked at me.

1331
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,240
She was like, duh, you're the golden retriever.

1332
00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:30,400
And I'm like, but not with everybody.

1333
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:31,680
And then I thought about it, like,

1334
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:34,080
wait, do you find your people, though?

1335
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:35,040
It's so different.

1336
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,440
Like, dude, I swear, one day I'm going to find out

1337
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,600
how to work in Kubernetes just staying out with you guys,

1338
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,840
because, like, it's the people, like...

1339
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,840
Duffy, when did you leave VMware and go to Isovalent?

1340
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:46,640
When was that?

1341
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,000
After I left VMware, I actually went back to Apple

1342
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,800
for six months and realized that it was kind of a rerun

1343
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,560
of the last time I was there, and then I left.

1344
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,040
And I went to, but I had interviewed,

1345
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:58,240
I mean, I've known Dan.

1346
00:56:58,240 --> 00:57:01,360
Dan Wentland is the CEO of Isovalent.

1347
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,920
He's somebody I worked with very closely at NYSERA.

1348
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:05,520
Again, right, the loop.

1349
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,120
And so when I, so I had talked to Dan

1350
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,760
about an opportunity to do what I'm doing at Isovalent,

1351
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,160
and then I saw an opportunity to go back to Apple

1352
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,480
to do Kubernetes there with a bunch of other friends

1353
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,080
that I'd known there for years.

1354
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:19,120
And I was like, you know what?

1355
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,120
I'm going to do the Apple thing,

1356
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,720
because I feel like it would be really great

1357
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,000
to see that finish, right?

1358
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,040
To see, close that loop.

1359
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:26,000
Yeah.

1360
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,280
It was not ready to be closed.

1361
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,680
And so I left and went back to Isovalent,

1362
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:30,960
and I've been at Isovalent since,

1363
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,840
and had a wonderful time throughout this whole acquisition.

1364
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:34,800
And I was just telling...

1365
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,400
Duffy, when you handle things, it's so classy.

1366
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,280
Like, I just, like...

1367
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,320
Duffy can tell you the good and the bad,

1368
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:41,840
and he makes it sound so good.

1369
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,880
And it's like, oh, just like, I'm just like...

1370
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:47,520
I just teach me that quality.

1371
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,480
Like, the way you sum things up.

1372
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:51,920
I was like, that was so classy.

1373
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:52,960
Like...

1374
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:53,440
Thank you.

1375
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:55,360
Yeah.

1376
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:56,320
And then, yeah.

1377
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,240
And then the acquisition in Disysco,

1378
00:57:58,240 --> 00:57:59,440
it's like one of...

1379
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,840
I've been through this a few times,

1380
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,720
and this is the one that I am the most positive on.

1381
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,920
Like, I actually do think I might be here the whole time.

1382
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,840
Like that, like...

1383
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:11,760
Because I'm actually working on super fascinating things.

1384
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:13,040
Like, Disysco is in a place where it's...

1385
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,360
Like, having its Microsoft moment,

1386
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,640
whether it succeeds or fails, is all up in the air.

1387
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,400
But like, it's really changing as a company.

1388
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,080
Like, we have one product leader in front of all of Disysco.

1389
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,240
That's never happened in the history of the company.

1390
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,160
We have, like, you know,

1391
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,800
reorganizations happening to basically restructure the company

1392
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,240
to go to market as one product.

1393
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,440
It's like, it's...

1394
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,600
I never thought in my career that I would have an opportunity

1395
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,880
to see a giant like Disysco go through that much change.

1396
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,240
And I have a great seat.

1397
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,560
I'm like, in the perfect spot to watch all of that happen.

1398
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:49,120
It's amazing.

1399
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,440
I love this for you because you're such a, like, nice person.

1400
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:52,720
I feel like you deserve this win.

1401
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:54,720
It's crazy because, like...

1402
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:56,800
Isn't it wild?

1403
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:03,120
What is your favorite job out of all the jobs that you've had?

1404
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:04,800
Ooh, that's tough.

1405
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,160
Because I feel like you've had, like, the most amazing...

1406
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,920
Like, you've lived, like, six lives, Tuffy.

1407
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,640
I think, actually, it's between...

1408
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:17,520
I'll say that it was the two years of Heptio and Quarrow West.

1409
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:18,560
I think we're the two...

1410
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:20,800
Probably the best for me.

1411
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,680
Because I have really had an incredible connection

1412
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,760
with everybody who worked at both of those companies.

1413
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,080
And it really made me feel...

1414
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,520
It really enabled me to embrace the...

1415
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,240
That learning culture.

1416
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,040
And also, at Heptio, I had the opportunity

1417
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:40,880
to help define that learning culture.

1418
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:42,640
Right?

1419
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,560
I mean, I did that a bit at Quarrow West as well,

1420
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:49,760
but really just having that ability to just come in and say,

1421
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,760
you know, this team is going to move things forward

1422
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:54,800
for the entire company.

1423
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,000
And the way we're going to do that is by being professionally...

1424
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,880
Intellectually curious, being honest with ourselves

1425
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,080
and with our customers.

1426
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,600
And just, like, you know, driving that home with the team.

1427
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,240
And it was an incredible, incredible opportunity.

1428
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,440
I think those two are my favorite jobs.

1429
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:14,720
I mean, this one's not bad either.

1430
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:15,840
I really enjoy Isabel.

1431
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,200
I'm not saying that, but, like...

1432
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,120
I used to think that being...

1433
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,240
That when managers or people, like, you know, in tech,

1434
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,120
like how it set you up to work on what you were most interested on,

1435
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,000
I used to think that that was just, like, a blessing,

1436
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,760
which it is, obviously.

1437
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:34,240
But it's wild how you will get just go down the rabbit holes

1438
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,640
and work late and do all the things

1439
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:38,560
when it's something you're truly interested in.

1440
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,280
Like, you start to see the business value

1441
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,800
and giving people that are curious those opportunities

1442
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,800
because it's not just to be nice.

1443
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,320
It's wild how somebody will expand and innovate

1444
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,320
and become such a subject matter expert

1445
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,560
when they are given that runway, you know?

1446
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:58,480
Oh, you're on mute.

1447
01:00:58,480 --> 01:00:59,120
I don't know what happened.

1448
01:00:59,120 --> 01:00:59,840
We lost your audio.

1449
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:02,480
When you're given the time to do it

1450
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,360
and you're given the permission to do it

1451
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:09,040
and you're welcoming in, like, very different scene.

1452
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:11,040
I have to go, though.

1453
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,720
So we should say our goodbyes, I think.

1454
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:13,200
Yeah.

1455
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:13,440
Okay.

1456
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,680
Duffy, thank you so much for coming on.

1457
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:16,880
Where should people find you?

1458
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,080
They can find me, gosh, in the Kubernetes Slack,

1459
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:21,040
the CNCF Slack.

1460
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,160
They can find me on Blue Sky as Maui Lyon.

1461
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:28,640
So MAUI, like the island, and LION, like the big cap.

1462
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,040
You can find me on X that way.

1463
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:32,720
You can find me on Blue Sky that way.

1464
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:34,160
Yeah.

1465
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,200
I'm on Signal as well.

1466
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:35,920
You've been fencing so well.

1467
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:37,920
Thank you.

1468
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:40,160
But thank you both for the time.

1469
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:40,400
All right.

1470
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:40,880
Well, thank you.

1471
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:42,960
Yeah, thank you so much for coming

1472
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,840
and telling us all your story and history

1473
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,880
around how you've grown in Kubernetes

1474
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:49,840
and Kubernetes has grown.

1475
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:50,400
That's been great.

1476
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:51,360
I missed you so much.

1477
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:52,880
I'm so glad we got to interview you.

1478
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:56,480
And you can always find me at KubeCon in places like that.

1479
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:57,920
Anytime you see me, just come say hi.

1480
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,160
It's so worth it.

1481
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:01,120
He's amazing.

1482
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:04,640
Thank you, everyone, for listening,

1483
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:05,920
and we will talk to you again soon.

1484
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:08,320
Thank you for coming on, Dougie.

1485
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:17,360
Thank you for listening to this episode

1486
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,040
of Fork Around and Find Out.

1487
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,040
If you like this show, please consider sharing it

1488
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,520
with a friend, a co-worker, a family member,

1489
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:24,560
or even an enemy.

1490
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:26,880
However we get the word out about this show

1491
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,360
helps it to become sustainable for the long term.

1492
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:30,800
If you want to sponsor this show,

1493
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:35,040
please go to fafo.fm slash sponsor

1494
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:36,160
and reach out to us there

1495
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,000
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1496
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:38,720
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1497
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,760
We hope your systems stay available

1498
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:43,200
and your pagers stay quiet.

1499
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:52,320
We'll see you again next time.