Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader, and this is the Silvercore podcast.
Silvercore has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge
necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years.
And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world.
Very often when a podcast As ends, the conversation continues.
That was the case here, and we decided to press record on a candid conversation
where Sean asked me questions he was curious about for the complete
conversation that led to this discussion.
Make sure to download episode 107 where Sean shares the secrets that led
to his success as an industry leader.
If you enjoy the Silver Core Podcast and you'd like to see more, the biggest
thing that you can do to help us grow is to like, comment and share with others.
It's a small effort, but it makes a massive difference
to the growth of the show.
Thank you.
Sean Zubor: All right, brother, I got a question for you.
Yeah.
Okay.
So why this, why this podcast?
Travis Bader: You know, it's one of these things I, I looked at what was
happening in my sphere and my business, and there, there was a hell of a lot
of negativity that you see, whether it be on a social side from, uh, firearms
or hunting and people against that.
Uh, whether it be within the industry itself, you know, you're
in the real estate industry.
And I'm sure there's all different types of characters and there's
those that will strive hard to build the biggest building and build a
community around them to build it up.
And there are also those that will try and torch everybody else's building
so that there's looks the biggest.
And I was encountering that numerous times.
And I thought, this is what I know.
This is what I do.
Do I want to just endeavor in a different direction or do I want to
see if I can be the person to bring some positivity and change into an
industry where I'm experiencing, uh, difficulty and negativity?
So that, that was the advent of the Silver Core Podcast.
It was specifically designed to bring positivity into the industry
and to highlight people's passion and share that passion with others.
Sean Zubor: What do you feel that, let me rephrase, business or people,
people that are out there, like a very similar question to what you've asked
me earlier is like, what are some of the changes you feel that we need, we
need to be doing as a society to better.
You know, gun advocacy and all the other kinds of things that you're involved in.
And we've been talking about.
Travis Bader: It's similar to what you're talking about before, which is
to have an open mind, to separate the individual from the idea, to realize
that a lot of us are all striving to get to the exact same place.
We're just taking different paths to get there and that
place that we're trying to get.
To if we can take a step back and look at that and say, is that worthwhile?
Is that a place where we want to be?
And if so, are we able to be tolerant of these other paths?
And in fact, is there a way we can work together to get there?
And that one piece of the puzzle that work together to get there is a one
piece of the puzzle that I found to be lacking in so many areas, because the
person who wants to work together the most will oftentimes find themselves
being the one who does the majority of the work, who gets taken advantage of.
Or forgotten, uh, if, if things start to get tough or difficult.
So I think it's a process of realizing that's human nature and then surrounding
yourself with the right quality of person.
Sean Zubor: And so.
Right now, how we find ourselves, um, let's just say in like the
whole firearms community and what's happening, like I know there is
lawsuits between major organizations and all these other kinds of things.
Are we cannibalizing ourselves?
What are, what are some of the things that as a community, because
you're in this community more than anybody I know, what are some of
the things that we should be doing?
To kind of, you know, help to be that one foot forward.
Like how, how do we bring these people together when you have people with
the exact same minds, one might just be a little bit more extreme than
the other or whatever it is, right.
For lack of a better word.
But how, how do we bring these communicated?
Cause I feel like if we're bickering and fighting it, we're
definitely not moving forward.
Travis Bader: No, and you're not.
And then you, and if I'm to extrapolate from lawsuits and community, you're
probably talking about different advocacy groups that are out there.
And the power struggles that have happened.
And really none of them are blameless.
There is no one single white knight in all of this.
And some of them have weaponized their, their followers in the
hopes of getting more followers and to try and defeat others.
I think that that is one area that has been so disheartening when
you look at it is the amount of.
Of infighting and you'll find that at every level, at the high levels,
at the low levels, whether it's your local club and they get in there
and says, well, I don't care that about this law that's coming through.
Cause I'm not a pistol shooter.
I don't have restricted or prohibited, or I'm only black powder.
And I think the biggest, uh, benefit that this community in general,
whether it be the firearms community or the hunting community can look
at is what is our guiding light?
Do we have an overarching goal that we're looking to get towards?
Like if people say, nope, for my cold, dead hands, and
they ain't getting just one.
Okay, that's one stance.
That's one way you can go towards it.
But you also realize you're going to alienate a hell of a
lot of people in the process.
Um, but if you have that one guiding light and then the resources for people
to be able to be essentially empower themselves, because most people.
Have that ability already.
They just don't realize it.
So waking people up to the fact that they have that ability and maybe just
providing them resources where you can say, you don't need an organization
to go and do these things for you.
In fact, all of you individuals are so much more powerful on your
own, that organization lean on them and make them work, have them
provide you as individuals with the.
Uh, the tools so that you can go out there and sing from the same song
sheet and approach in a similar way.
I think that would probably affect the greatest amount of, of, uh, change and
compassion, be compassionate because what you're looking at is something that
can negatively, some people have been negatively affected by firearms and never
in a million years, am I going to try and tell them that guns are a good thing or.
Try and endeavor in some sort of rational argument on an emotional, uh, level.
It's, um, you're not doing them or yourself or anybody, any favors, be
compassionate, realize that there are different ways that people look
at these things and maybe you It's surrounding ourselves with the right
community and then working together.
Sean Zubor: That's actually, I was going to ask you that as well, cause
I'm, I'm in the community, like I'm part of the wild sheep society and so
on and so forth, but, and I go, I'm a member at the POCO gun range and mission
gun range and so on and so forth.
So I try to be around it as much as I can, but I'm the first one to
say, like, I never go to general meetings or do any of these things.
So,
Travis Bader: you know, I got, I got a.
Yeah, why would you?
They're boring, right?
There you go.
And is,
Sean Zubor: is there, is there a lack of community that might help these things?
Cause like you said, and I've, I've generally heard this and I've seen
these on these BC hunting forums and all this other kind of stuff, like, oh,
I don't give a rat's ass if they don't.
If they take all pistols or black guns away, they're only just machismo
guys trying to be cool anyways.
And, you know, I use my gun for hunting.
They'll never take that away.
And then sure enough, they take away, you know, 10, 000 jewel or whatever.
You know what I mean?
And it does start affecting them.
Is that because we have separated ourselves within
and created micro communities?
I think in general, most of these.
What's the best way to say firearms owners or whatever.
I feel like a lot of us are very independent individuals and I'm, I'm,
I'm somebody that goes in the woods.
I can take care of myself.
I don't need everybody kind of thing.
You know what I mean?
Um, so does that play in the fact of why we haven't come to together and
been so cohesive in the movement?
Like, what are some of the things that, You think we can do to bring this to, to
bring everybody together more or less, and kind of bring us on the same page and have
that, that empathy and compassion for each other's sports and firearms in general,
versus just like, this is mine and only
Travis Bader: mine.
I think it comes down to normalization.
And I think you talk about these micro communities and they're there.
There's always going to be, doesn't matter what activity people get
into, you're going to have golfers, and then you're going to have people
that get right, right into it.
You know, it doesn't matter.
What group or organization you're with, but.
I think that the firearms community has been, and I'll put my air brackets up
here for the people that are listening, under the gun for such a long period of
time that a lot of them have decided, you know, if we're quiet, if we don't
poke our head up, we just do our thing.
We're not going to sit here and try and convince other
people, uh, it'll all go away.
But there's, there's just a massive machine behind the, uh, Whether
intentional or otherwise the anti gun or anti hunting movements.
Some of it's very much intentional.
Some of it, maybe not so much, you know, firearms are glorified in, in media.
Uh, people think of a police officer and, you know, give me a
couple objects that a cop is, they don't think of a pen and paper.
They don't think of, uh, Uh, all, all the things that a cop is, they
think about that very small thing, which is a gun on the hip, right?
Badge gun, right?
Firefighter is going to be hose and bucket.
Right.
Um, the gun has been glorified and in ways through media, and it's been
vilified in a way that, uh, I think it's become a part of the argument.
As opposed to like, people will say, well, I love my guns.
Yeah.
Right.
I, you're not going to take one and I'm going to fight for every last gun.
And then the other side might say, no, every gun should be gone.
But what are we actually talking about?
Like, what's the end goal?
Like if, if you ask any gun owner out there, they'd say, yeah,
we don't want to see shootings.
We don't want to see gangsters out there running around with them.
We don't want to see kids taking them to school.
I don't know any gun owner in the world that would say that.
And it's the same sentiment of what other, uh, people who'd want to get rid of guns.
So, What is it we're actually looking to work towards?
And if you can start identifying that and maybe just take the gun out of
the equation for a second, just put it on the side, say, not a problem.
We can talk about that and do our best to take the emotion out of
it and say, well, you know, is there such a thing as a bad gun?
Right.
And sure, we can talk about that, but.
What effect is that going to have if we get rid of them?
Like what effect of getting rid of drugs do?
Um, well, people still got drugs, prisons are the easiest place to get them, right?
People are still having problems.
Are we looking at harm reduction?
Are we looking at something that'll actually move our society to
the place where we're not seeing these, these negative things that
are being spun out in the media?
Sean Zubor: Do you feel like it's maybe a fact that, uh, the gun, and I don't
know if it's necessarily our place to have to do this anyways, but the gun
advocacy groups, firearm advocacy groups are not creating enough solutions for
the problems that may be out there.
And they're just sort of saying like, Hey, not over my dead body.
Are you taking these guns away from me?
And what I mean by as an example is, um, and just like you mentioned earlier.
If somebody is shot, let's say you lose a son or a family member
or something from a firearm.
Right.
There's a lot of emotion attached to that, obviously, right.
It's hardship and everything attached to that.
And is it, did the firearm, like any reasonable person is going
to know this, the fire would jump off the table and shoot somebody.
No, there is somebody behind that, that did that action and so on and so forth.
Right.
Um, but.
It is very easy for somebody to say, well, if there were no guns, or if you
don't have a gun, then that wouldn't, nobody would be able to grab that.
They don't necessarily think, well, just like England, you can go get a
knife and stab somebody, or you can grab a truck or, you know, if somebody
wants to kill you, unfortunately,
Travis Bader: that's.
And England's still got guns and they're an Island.
And if you can't keep them off this Island, how do you expect to keep
it out of, let's say Canada, which is right next door to the largest
arms manufacturer in the world.
Exactly.
Sean Zubor: Right.
So.
Is it maybe that we are not coming up with enough solutions as, um, as a movement
in whole, in whole, like, are we coming, like, are, are we going out there and
just saying, Hey, listen, guns don't kill people, kill people, kill people.
Okay.
It's the truth, right?
But by saying that you are also not giving any, well, this is what
we should do and how it would be.
An effective harm reduction policy.
Does that make sense?
Travis Bader: Kind of like the old book, uh, getting to yes, negotiating
agreement without giving in.
Yeah, exactly.
Here's my line in the sand and I'm not going to go past it as opposed
to saying, well, okay, I've got this line here, but I'm willing to move
that line for you if we get this.
Basically come into some sort of a quarter and understanding.
Or, or
Sean Zubor: even, uh, I'll give you an example, right?
I think one of the things that I don't see any of our ag advocacy
groups, like whoever they may be mentioning, you know, in, in.
In the United States, for example, all of these mass shootings that you've had, I
saw the entire list of it, and I'm sure you guys can all Google it and see it
yourself, but almost every single one, no, not almost every single one of these kids
that did these mass shootings were all on some kind of antidepressants, all on some
kind of drugs, all on some kind of mind altering, not one of them wasn't right.
Um, And so do, do we, as advocacy groups talk enough about the
preliminary causes and okay, no problem.
We can do background checks.
We can do it.
And the funny thing is, is, you know, you give an inch and then
they ask for not even a mile in this case, many times, 10, 20, 30 miles.
But, um, I think most.
Canadian firearm owners that I've met are okay with background checks are
okay with some reasonable prejudice.
Just like you got to get a driver's license for a car, right?
I think most of us are okay with certain things, right?
Where it draws the line is, is that we are getting everything
taken away without any reasonable.
Reason for it, right?
No mass murders with AR 15s, no nothing.
And then all of a sudden, all these responsible owners that are
the most vetted Canadians, right?
Are getting all of their firearms and personal property taken away from us.
And so obviously we're rightfully angry, right?
Are we doing enough to, you know, tell the world as an advocacy, as a
group, as an organization on the actual causality of what is causing these
people, people to do these horrific things, you know, the gun is the tool.
Obviously, and that's what they keep bringing up.
But do you feel as a society, we're doing enough to, you know, educate the
world on what is actually happening?
I just don't see a lot of that
Travis Bader: out there.
You know, the word reasonable is always going to be a difficult one, right?
Surely you're open to some reasonable restrictions.
You're open to some reasonable measures.
Oh yeah, I'm open to reasonable measures.
Right.
Well, where does that reason start to begin with, if, if it is in fact that
all of these shooters in the States, mass shooters were on some sort of
mind altering drug, wouldn't it be reasonable to start there as opposed
to looking at, they also all wore blue shoes, right, or whatever it might be.
Yeah.
Um, the firearms got the ability to do some serious damage
in a short period of time.
And there's no.
Doubt about that.
I don't think that everybody should have a God given right to have access to any
type of level of whatever it might be.
Nuclear, right?
You, what is that fake Latin saying?
Absolutum infinitum, right?
You just, you take the argument to the absolute infinite.
Uh, does it make sense over there still?
If so, then maybe you've got a good argument.
If it doesn't, like, why are we, where are we drawing these arbitrary lines?
I think that the, um, uh, there's a lot of very well meaning people out there.
Most of these people want the exact same thing.
They don't want to see people get hurt.
People want to feel safe.
They don't want to be.
Feeling threatened in their communities.
And some people look at it as a firearm, as a way to feel safe.
And other people look at getting rid of the firearm as a way to feel safe.
But it also will be a very easy tool because it's got such an emotional
attachment associated with it to pull those emotional strings.
If you want to just manipulate or control, or if I want to get votes
in a certain area, I'll say, well, look at my opponent wants to make
it easier for you to get guns.
Right.
And vice versa.
You want to get votes in another area to say my opponent wants to take away your,
your right to be able to protect yourself.
Yeah.
Well, neither of those are really true, right?
The, the end result of that, but it sure gets people fired up.
The minutiae of it can get boring for people.
What you mean?
We have to actually talk to our children and raise them in a certain way.
And there's some things that we can do as a society and as family to be able to
look out for these pre fight indicators or pre threat indicators, and we have to
start providing people, um, necessities.
Like a lot of times these things are happening.
People are drawn to a life of crime, typically not because they come from the
most affluent backgrounds and have all, all the niceties in life would offer.
They might be drawn there because they are at risk to begin with.
Should we be looking at, at, at those areas?
It gets a little tougher and the conversation isn't quite as easy to have.
So I think that's where.
The, the major disparity happens between the two sides.
One, because it's such a polarizing topic.
It's two, because it's very emotional three, because it's intentionally used by
both sides to be able to take them apart.
But are we doing enough to be able to educate people on other reasons?
I think people have to be open to hearing that first.
Sean Zubor: How do we know though, if we're not saying it or are we
Travis Bader: saying it?
I'm just missing it.
I mean, the information is there.
Yeah.
If a person is a gun owner can find it, a person is a non gun owner can find it too.
But what did Israeli say?
And I don't even think it was Israeli.
There's liars, damn liars and statisticians.
Right.
Um, you know, people can make stats sing to whatever, whatever way they wish it to.
To go, but there are some underlying truths to things, right?
There are some things that they can be able to extrapolate in a similar
way to what you're talking about before of how you operate business and
you're doing your constant OODA loop.
Sean Zubor: So how do we, how do we go ahead and, you know, tell the general
public this, because I think we're just, just by being an outsider that's in the.
More along the firearms community as a participant, not as a, you know, working
in it or whatever, have you, um, I, I don't see, uh, unless for myself, like
I've, I've been able to bring a few people into the community because I, I
show myself shooting on Instagram or, you know, I'm, I'm like showing how
much I enjoy doing these activities.
Right.
Um, but do we, as a community, Are we proactively putting it in commercials?
Are we proactively out there trying to get this message across?
And I know it could be a double edged sword.
Cause then all of a sudden, you know, they're going to loop us into what's
in the States and you have the whole NRA and whatever, you know, the, the,
the gun, most powerful committees, whatever you want to call it.
The point is, is are we doing enough to educate, or do you feel like that might?
Us going out there as a CCFR, for example, going out there and putting these things
out there, that's going to all of a sudden backfire and say, Hey, these gun
lobbies are just trying to brainwash
Travis Bader: you or whatever.
Well, anything could backfire or be used in the, in the, uh, as a propaganda
tool to be used against a person.
I don't know if, uh, telling people.
Is necessarily the approach to take.
I really don't have an answer to it, but I do know what I'm doing.
And it's similar to what you just said.
Even that's showing I'll show people, I mean, through my social media, through
how I dress, how I comport myself to, I'm not running around decked out,
head to toe and, and, uh, Vietnam era camouflage with bandoliers of bullets.
And I loves me guns, right?
You know, I'm doing my best just to be a normal individual who contributes
to the community and works really hard to bring everybody else up around them
into a better place and to, uh, assist those who are worth assisting and open
to assistance to, to, to be a better.
Better person for, for themselves without making the gun or whatever
the cause be, the focus of the attention, it just so happens to
be an ancillary by product of it.
And, you know, Shane Mahoney is a, um, renowned conservationist
out of, uh, out of Newfoundland, a very good orator, well spoken.
And he says, you know.
One thing for the hunting movement is to find something that has the
public's attention, rather than saying hunting's good, and this is why, and
here's all the stats on the animals.
And people like, they tune out.
They like, I just saw a picture of a, of a wolf and it looks like my
dog and it was shot and I feel bad.
Right.
It says, well, why don't we look at a movement that's gaining popularity
and has been for some time.
And that's just, you're eating local and the hundred mile diet and all the rest.
And we'll just.
Emphasize that hunting also happens to be a part of that, but, but we're not
trying to force it down somebody's throat.
I don't think that, uh, we exclude those who want to forcibly try and stand up and
say, this is a way, like, I don't think there's just one way, but I think for
the general population, the masses of.
If they just realize that, you know, our doctors, our lawyers, our judges,
our, our, uh, police officers, our professionals in our community,
teachers out there, they hunt, they have firearms and they're productive members.
And I think that sort of a, uh, approach would.
paint a different picture than what people typically see, which is six o'clock news.
And here's, here's the gangbanger out there.
Right.
Sean Zubor: So it's more, uh, of a normalization of showing that like,
this is something that everybody does.
And it's funny that you mentioned that because.
I don't want to tell you the exact, cause I'd be lying the exact stats
on it, but Ohio and Idaho and all these things in Utah, the amount of,
uh, tags that have gone, gone, uh, or been applied for because of Joe
Rogan and because of Cameron Haynes and because of all these guys saying
like, that's all I eat is elk now.
Right.
You know, like, and it's going, and it's been this, instead of hunting.
It's lifestyle.
It's like, I only eat organic.
I train every day.
I do cold showers or cold baths.
I do this and I eat elk.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Right.
And they're contributing members of the society who are doing something that's
productive and they're an aspirational figure that other people say, you know
what, if they can do it, I can do it too.
Sean Zubor: So maybe is that one of the next steps then?
Is that something you're saying that these people that.
Our normal contributing members of society should be just a
little bit more outspoken.
Is that something that we could
Travis Bader: ask for or hope for?
Uh, perhaps I think the biggest thing is just don't get baited into the
argument that you didn't want to have to begin with, because there's, there's
a losing proposition on, on some of these arguments and guns are bad.
Guns are good.
Well, guns are neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so right.
Yeah.
To, to misquote Shakespeare.
It's true.
Yeah, I think the argument has just been wrong for a very long time, both.
Intentionally and unintentionally, I think that people should, uh, they
don't have to force their opinions and beliefs down people, but they also have
to realize that those who are trying to force your opinions and beliefs, there
should be a check and balance in that process and not get baited into being
the opposition of a certain thing, but you're opposing someone's ability
to force their will or opinion on you without the ability to have a reasonable.
Uh, retort back.
Sean Zubor: Right.
Well, that kind of leads to a question I have for you.
Okay.
So.
I've been looking at getting, um, a trapline.
I was looking at, I'm getting my pilot's license and
hopefully my float designation.
How do I get an ATC?
Travis Bader: That's an excellent question.
I'm glad you asked that one.
And, uh, yeah, float plane.
Awesome.
My, my son is working towards his pilot license at the moment now,
and we're, we're, I know he's going to want floats as well.
He said.
Where, where is he doing it?
Um, Charlie Zulu, bravo, bravo here at Burnaby.
Yeah, or Boundary Bay, sorry.
Very cool.
Um, but yeah, he's, uh, done his ground school a couple of times.
He's only 14 right now.
Oh, wow.
That's very cool.
Yes.
He's done ground school a few times.
He's just working up his hours now, done his tests, got everything under his belt.
And he's just got to finish up his hours and get himself through, but.
It's, it's such
Sean Zubor: an amazing experience.
There's, um, I've been boating my whole life.
I have my motorcycle license, all that kind of jazz, but flying.
A, I way underestimated how much work it is.
It's a lot of work.
Holy cow.
And like what you have to memorize and, and it makes sense, but I
just thought, I'm just trying to like fly a Cessna with floats.
Right.
And what, what work do I have to do?
Travis Bader: And they're dead easy to fly, like really when you're up there,
but there's a hell of a lot of work.
Well, and
Sean Zubor: the thing is what you have to learn is basically 75 or 80% of what
the pilot does, because if you don't know how to do that stuff, you're going to.
Drop the plate out of the sky, all the stuff kind of goes in there.
So I way underestimated the amount of work it would take, but, um, yeah, I,
what I'm looking to do is obviously go hunting, uh, looking at guiding trap line.
Something is, you know, a down the line, not to say retirement gig, but other gig.
Yeah.
Um.
Man, what do I do to get an ATC,
Travis Bader: man?
So ATC, authorization to carry, few different ways you can get one in Canada.
One, you can be, uh, your principal activity is a
transport of cash or negotiables.
So armored car guards, they get ATCs.
They don't have a Queen's commission like the police have.
Police don't have firearms licenses unless they go out personally and get one.
A little bit different rules there, just like the, our army doesn't
need firearms licenses to go out.
And is
Sean Zubor: it sort of interrupt?
Is it true that, cause I've heard this, I think like RCMP
can't carry outside of duty?
Yes and no.
Okay.
Depending, I guess, on what their
Travis Bader: role is or something, I guess.
Technically they're not supposed to be carrying outside of duty.
If they get authorization from a supervisor, they can
now carry outside of duty.
Um, yeah.
So, uh, there, there's a yes and no, and there's a bit of a gray area.
I think there is a, uh, When the, the laws keep coming in and changing,
there's always going to be levels to try and placate those who are going
to be enforcing the laws as well, too.
Right.
Sean Zubor: It was just weird to me that a police officer that that's their job,
they walk around with a firearm, can't conceal carry or something like that.
It's just.
One doesn't make sense for the other.
That's all.
But I, I guess
Travis Bader: it is what it is.
It's laws.
It's Canada.
There's a lot that might not make sense, but yeah, so your principal
activity is to transport a cash or negotiables, armor card guard.
You got to go through some training.
You got to realize that there's going to be less violent means
available and how you can take them.
They don't really have intermediary taser.
They go from empty hand defense to lethal force.
Right.
So they've, uh, they don't really have the same force continuum that, uh, a
police officer would have, mind you, their role is to leave, to run away.
Yeah.
So.
But a week long course, week to two weeks, depending on who you're doing
the training with and the level of training that they're getting, uh,
if your life is in danger, right?
If there's a legitimate threat on your life and the keyword I think
is police protection isn't adequate.
Okay.
You can get yourself an ATC for that.
We've worked with some and the final hurdle for some
individuals who had legitimate.
Threats on their life who were requiring the ability to carry a firearm was, we
need you to get something from your local chief of police, piece of paper saying
that their protection is not adequate.
Well, good luck finding that right.
Yes.
Sean Zubor: Could you give me an example of like who would qualify for that?
Like not, obviously don't give me exactly who they were, but like what
kind of position would that be in?
Is that like.
Cause obviously it's not going to be like, Hey, you're a gangster.
So you can qualify
Travis Bader: yourself, right?
The law is not, it doesn't qualify the individual.
They just say that there's going to be some imminent risk to, uh,
death or grievous bodily harm and police protection is inadequate.
So that could, could be the gangster, right?
Technically, uh, under the law, typically it's something that's going to be
given to, let's say a judge during a.
Period of time when they're working on a trial and there's
been threats on their life.
And the police aren't, you know, maybe they have a protective detail
on them, but, uh, they can't be everywhere all the time for them.
Yeah.
So that that's generally been from my understanding where the few and far
between on the protection of life, uh, outside of Your cash negotiables
has been, uh, issued, but then there's the one that you're talking about and
people call it a WATC or wilderness ATC.
So they keep changing rules on that.
And every time they change the rules, we here at Silvercore have always
been the forefront of certifying new individuals who qualify to
meet whatever the new rules are.
I think it was around 96, put person through and 2000, they change the rules,
put them through and, and there's.
Essentially, it comes down to you're working in a remote wilderness area
and you require a restricted firearm or a pistol to protect yourself,
your life from predatory animals.
What's a remote wilderness area?
I don't know.
Right.
Uh, that's somebody living in the city, maybe.
Went out a little bit into the bush is remote wilderness.
If somebody lives well outside of the city, maybe they feel
that's pretty populated.
So that that's pretty open to interpretation.
Mind you, when we've had people come through for the ATCs, we leave that
wide open, any area within BC, which is considered remote wilderness,
uh, working is one, uh, that the.
Is it's sort of a key word.
And they, uh, the issuing body being the Canadian Firearms Program looks at working
as actively employed or self employed.
It doesn't look at it as, Hey, I'm working on the roof of my cabin, right?
They have to see some sort of employment.
So, uh, if you've got a trap line, that would be okay,
that's what I'm doing for work.
They might ask you for municipal.
Authorizations saying, Hey, you've got a business license.
And I know when I had to apply for one, I had to get a letter from the city of
Delta saying, we have no authority over remote wilderness areas throughout BC.
But, but that was one of the checks and balances they had to go through.
And, uh, it has to be, you know, if it's funny, because there is a desire
to not issue these wilderness ATCs.
And I talked to my American friends and they're like,
this is absolutely ridiculous.
How can you not, uh, like Brad Brooks out of Idaho, he is out in Alaska and
he's hunting and he's, um, Uh, he's got his pistol in his hip because
he's got his, he's doing some archery.
He's like, how can you guys go out there and not have something?
Right.
Sean Zubor: Well, it's crazy that you mentioned that
actually, speaking of Alaska.
Yeah.
So I did the research.
I can literally drive to the Alaska border and with my hunting license
that I purchased from Alaska.
Which is free.
I can.
Or no, it's 10.
Yeah.
No course.
More or less free.
Right.
I can just say that I'm hunting small bird, which will allow me to bring
over my firearm and I can conceal carry or open carry in Alaska.
Wait, there's another permit that I have to apply for, but that is the
preliminary effect for that permit.
So I could literally conceal carry.
In Alaska and not
Travis Bader: in British Columbia.
Well, that was the, the, the States have different rules.
They call it a CCW.
So concealed carry weapon.
And I remember Utah, they had a, when they had reciprocity and a whole bunch of other
States, including Alaska and Washington.
And the, they had this guy coming around and he was just
raking in the money, right.
He was going to all the local clubs here in Canada and I'll put you through,
you're going to get your Utah license.
And I was one of them.
I went through and I got my Utah CCW.
And when I went in the States, you were able to bring it across.
I had my Alaska license and I went into Washington.
Okay.
I mean, fair enough.
You got your Alaska.
So you met all the protocol.
And, um, I went down there for a training courses I was doing in the States, but,
uh, there's a lot of little workarounds.
I don't know if I would want to be on the arguing end of a workaround
like this, if push came to shove.
Um, but for Canada, you're, you're willing to say TC, they're
going to require you a, a.
That you do some sort of proof of proficiency.
Okay.
Um.
Sean Zubor: And that you can take the course through yourself, right?
There's a course that
Travis Bader: you do get.
You can do that through yourself.
I found it kind of funny because they say, well, proof of proficiency, the
people who can sign off on you, if they're a range officer or a firearm
safety course instructor, neither of those people necessarily have
any background in, in being able to.
Provide proof of proficiency or qual courses.
Right.
For individuals.
Maybe they're a range officer and they're good at turning the light on and
off and calling the range safe or not, or dealing with deactivated firearms
or disabled firearms in the safety course, but that's where the process is.
So you have to show that you can shoot it.
You're supposed to be using the same ammunition that
you'd be using on an animal.
So you can't use lighter loads.
Gotcha.
Uh, question on that is what police officers do you know
that qualify on ammunition?
That's going to be the same as what they're using and carrying.
And the answer is, well, probably close to none because most of them are using
cheaper FMJs or frangibles on their, uh, their ranges and not hollow points.
But, um, you meet that criteria, prove that you're working and you
can do that with your trap line.
And then there's going to be caliber restrictions.
They say that you want to have something that's going to be, have enough power.
Sean Zubor: So just random questions, the Glock 20, the 10 millimeter sufficient.
Cause I know a lot of guys up North are
Travis Bader: using those.
Yeah.
And I got one for a 40 Cal.
I think I was the first one to be issued one for 40 Cal and I would argue nine
millimeter as well, because previously they were saying, you know, uh, it has
to be a revolver, it's gotta be minimum.
Uh, I think it was minimum 357 Magnum.
I said, well, how does an animal go down?
It's not always going to be bears that you're protecting yourself from, right?
There's other predatory animals out there that.
Uh, or other dangers that you'd be having a problem with and, you
know, a nice, powerful round does nothing if you miss it, right?
If you have 10 rounds in your magazine, you have more chances to hit it.
You have more chances.
You're either going to be disabling an animal through an interruption
of the central nervous system, the spine or brain, or through inducing
massive hypovolemic shock through cardiopulmonary decompression.
And the.
Fastest way to do that is more holes.
Yeah.
So anyways, was successful on all of those fronts.
I have seen people denied the ability if they're out in their trap line, or if
they're out working at remote wilderness area and they say, well, right now I'm
carrying my shotgun with me everywhere.
And they say, oh, well, you don't need a handgun then.
Sean Zubor: And that's what I was going to ask you, because I've, I've
heard of, I actually know two guides that, um, guide out of Muncho Lake up
there and they applied for it and they were denied because they were told.
That, well, you can carry a, uh, a shotgun, you can carry,
um, a rifle or whatever it is.
Right.
But they, you know, they're not excuse, but why they wanted one is the fact
that they're packing all the time.
They're doing this, how are they going to be able to access that shotgun?
If the thing's attacking them while they're packing meat
on the back of their horses.
Um, so I don't know if they've successfully been able to reapply
or whatever the case has been a while since I talked to them.
But so there is no specific, like these are the jobs that you can do.
These are the, it's just, if it's a, and that specific job, because like, that's
one of the things I've heard as well.
There's quite a few helicopter pilots that have it out there because at the end of
the day, they're in forestry or whatever.
They're communicating quite and they crash quite often, unfortunately, not.
It happens.
Yeah.
Not, not, uh, Lethal in most cases, but it happens.
And, um, so that's, that's the only way that they have no room to put a
shotgun or whatever it may be in there.
So they're carrying.
So there is no specific job requirement
Travis Bader: or anything.
Remote willingness area.
What is that?
That's up to you to define, um, working.
What is that?
Well, that's going to be a conversation.
They're going to want to have a talk with you, which is a good opportunity
for them to say, well, now you've been disqualified based off of our talk.
And I remember when I went through, um, every time they change the rules
and they make it different, they say, well, come on in, let's have
a little conversation about it.
I'm like, why don't you send it to me in an email?
I'm more than happy to, because I want to document the process, right.
Because I want to be able to assist others.
So that they can go in the same route, not to cheat the system, not to scam it, not
to find a workaround, but to know exactly what it is that's required and what isn't.
I would think from a government agency standpoint, they'd want
that level of systemization.
And so it finally reached a point where they refused to do the, uh,
to provide the questions by email, because they said it could be dynamic.
It could be changing.
I said, okay.
Not a problem.
I got you on phone now.
Yeah.
Let's do this.
You can ask me all the questions you want.
They said, okay, question number one.
I write it down.
I said, that's a really good question.
I'll get back to you by email.
What's the next question?
Went through the entire list.
It's like, come on guys, quit playing this game.
Um, so anyways, got all the questions.
They now have a written form as well that you'll answer and you'll put
out, uh, uh, your, your questions do know that there are some firearms
officers out there that will try to disqualify you based on your questions.
So the more succinct you can be when you answer them to the
point, truthful, obviously.
Um, the, the less you're providing for them to try and pick holes in.
Sean Zubor: And so now with this new, uh, can't transfer cell by handguns, how has
this thrown a wrench into the whole thing?
Like, like, uh, fortunately I do have a 357.
Fortunately I do have.
You know, 10 millimeter Glock.
Fortunately, I have all those things.
However, um, if I didn't and I needed an ATC, how would I go about doing that?
Or is that just null and void now?
Travis Bader: Well, they keep making provisions, right?
Um, is it null and void?
No, there's always a way like for someone to deny you the
ability to protect your life.
And I think that's one of the things that should.
An approach that an individual should take.
I definitely, I would take is to put that onus on the issuing party.
Rather than them putting the onus on you and say, well, you didn't
meet the requirements, put the onus on them to be able to say,
how are those requirements sound?
And now you're, if I get mauled and killed out there based on you and my
inability to have anything else out there, you're going to wear this, right?
Very few people want to wear that one.
They'll try and find a way to pass it back.
Um, there are provisions for people who are working for them to be able to get
handguns that are written in, but we've also got an election apparently coming
up that's, uh, that's being rumored.
So we'll see what happens there.
Yeah.
Hopefully that changes a lot.
And you know, I guess the other side would be too, for businesses,
there's nothing stopping an individual from starting a business.
Right.
If you want to have all of the there's, there's always a way for
people to be able to do things.
If somebody says, Oh man, I really want to shoot full auto and I want to have
silences and I want to have, and they go through the whole list of things that
they want to do a little bit of hard work.
You can set up a businesses.
There are businesses out there that do all of those things,
and now you're able to do it.
Provided you're not just doing it for your own.
Yeah.
Right.
And you, you can actually justifiably say this is a business thing that I'm doing.
Go nuts.
I mean, the requirements for a business are in some cases less
stringent than for an individual, like for an individual, if you have
to, uh, lock up your firearms, right.
Your restricted firearms and trigger lock and it locked box, right.
Separate from the ammunition or in a safe.
And for a business, this has got to be, your firearms have to be separate.
In an area, not readily accessible to the general public, every window and every
door has to have the ability to be locked.
Doesn't even say it has to be locked.
Right.
And, um, there has to be an electronic alarm.
And like, what is that?
Is that one of those little motion sensor frogs that ribbits when you go by?
Is it a monitored alarm?
Is it a siren?
I mean.
They don't stipulate, so it gets a little, little silly.
There's a lot of generalizations in there.
There is.
Yeah.
Sean Zubor: Yeah, man.
Okay.
So I'm going to definitely try to apply for my ATC.
I've got to figure out, I wonder if I could, uh, open Stonehouse
in a remote location, but how would I, how would I defend
Travis Bader: myself?
Would you be ever working as a real estate agent in remote wilderness locations?
I actually do right now.
There you go.
That's working.
Sean Zubor: Do you think that
Travis Bader: would be approvable though?
It all comes down to the individual.
Yeah.
I mean, from the letter of the law, absolutely.
And it comes down to the individual, the circumstances, the firearms
officer that you're dealing with.
Cause keep in mind, you have to make it easy for them to say yes.
Yeah.
Or hard for them to say no.
Right.
If you want to paint a person to the corner and they got nowhere else to go.
I mean, you're, you're, you're not doing yourself any favors, but if you paint them
into a corner and give them a door out.
Yeah.
Most civil servants don't want to take that level of responsibility.
And if they can find a way to pass it onto somebody else.
Yeah.
And still do their job and do what they have to do.
Not a problem.
Sean Zubor: Fair enough.
So let me ask you this.
So with your ATC, could it, it's not defined by a specific area, I
guess it would only be defined if it's, um, like wilderness, I guess.
But, um, It's not to find like, because what I've been told is that you can,
if you have a trapline and you're applying it for your trapline, you
can only wear it on your trapline.
And I even read somewhere that it has to be locked up while you're on
like the quad or something like that.
And that once you get off the quad, then you can put it, and there's only a certain
type of holsters that you can wear.
You can't wear like I.
From what I've been told and read, and obviously probably wrong,
but that there's a whole bunch of stipulations, uh, attached to it.
But I guess maybe that's just how the application was
Travis Bader: or.
I mean, if you want to put stipulations on, you can, and if they ask you
to put stipulations on and you do, they will gladly comply with that.
Yeah.
But it's similar to your authorization to transport previously,
you had to apply for an ATT.
Yeah.
Then it was brought in as part of your license, but they would ask you
a whole bunch of questions on there.
What range do you belong to?
What time do you think you're going to be transporting it?
Um, what days would you be transporting it on?
And people would fill it out and like, well, geez, I'm.
I wouldn't go there on a weekday, maybe in the evenings in the weekday, right.
But not through the day and Saturdays and Sundays and, um, and on the forum,
it says, um, I think at the time it was, uh, one, two or three year license.
What, what do you want it for, for how long?
Like, why would I put, Oh, I just want it for a year, I just need it for a week.
And so, uh, background 94, 95 put out a forum and it said to all
approved gun clubs and ranges, uh, from 2, 400 to 2, 400.
Every day of the week, I want it for the maximum of three years.
Like the, I get the intention behind some of these laws and rules.
They don't want to see gangbangers run around with handguns and
without proper permission.
And it gives them another tool so they can say, are you right?
Or are you wrong?
But.
As a licensed firearms owner, who's gone through proper training and
criminal record checked and background checked and reference checked, and now
that reference checks and all those checks go for a person's lifetime.
What's the difference between them carrying a rifle, which is far
more dangerous pistol or a shotgun.
So, you know, sometimes the logic kind of goes out the window and I think
the firearms program looked at that.
They'll make forms sometimes the only, the only.
Um, teeth that some of these laws really have, or some of these rules
that are in place fall in place on the form, because there's an order
prescribing forms and licenses, and they'll say it's asked on the form.
And so you have to fill it out, but there's nowhere in the law that says
you have to put these things out.
So it's, it's a very, it's a very, it's a It's a very interesting sort of thing.
And it's, um, uh, I mean, we, we advocate for people's ability to be able to use
things lawfully and safely, uh, not to be cutting corners and skirting, skirting
the, uh, the rules here, but in the same breath that there are rules that
you're supposed to be playing by, it's important people know what they are.
Yeah.
Sean Zubor: So, um, so just to clarify then, so let's say I get an ATC.
Yep.
You're on your trap line.
And I'm on my trap line and I haven't specifically said that this
is going to be for my trap line.
This is going to be for, uh, trapping, but not specifically for that area only.
Let's just put it that way.
Um, Now, does it have to be used in, on the job per se, like only, or can
I, can I go hunting later on that day with a bow and carry my handgun with me?
Travis Bader: I think if you look at these things, there's two places
that I'd put myself in two positions.
Number one.
Um, CYA, can you articulate, right?
Can you articulate to a conservation officer or a police officer or
whomever it might be that you are complying with the conditions of
which your license was, uh, provided.
Right.
And number two, is this a position that you'd want to defend in court?
Right.
So.
Uh, if the answer is yes to both of those and then so be it, right.
But, uh, if you're a little hazy on some of them, then I'd say I probably wouldn't
because the ends don't justify the means.
And is that really worth it for you?
Uh, for some of the people who are getting their licenses,
they're going to be working.
BC, uh, or whatever province they're in.
And, uh, maybe they're, maybe they're a free miner, they don't have a
set trap line, or maybe they're, they're looking for new trap lines.
They're going to be setting up and they need to explore these areas
just because you have a trap line and that's your one doesn't mean you, it's
going to preclude you from looking in other areas and staking places out.
So, uh, I would say.
Sean Zubor: But the letter of the law basically says that it should
be during the job, I guess, or, uh.
It says working.
Working.
Okay.
So it's not just that I have to have that.
And once I have a job and I use it for my job, I can use it for everything
Travis Bader: else too.
I mean, if your job's as a guide, you might have a, uh,
have an argument there, right?
Right.
Um, if your job is, uh, scouting as a guide, maybe you have
an argument there, right?
It's just, Uh, it's one of these things where people tend to do things cause
that's how it's always been done.
Right.
And it's okay to ask questions and to push back and sometimes
it just costs you your time.
Sometimes it costs your money, but whatever you do, I would highly encourage
anybody if they have it and they feel that they're in the right, make
sure they've got a way to be able to.
Articulate afterwards.
And what I like to do is I'll get things in writing and oftentimes they
don't want to offer things in writing.
So maybe I'll just do the reverse of that and I'll send them something
in writing and say, here's what I'm planning on doing and reverse that onus.
If this is not within the prescribed rules.
Please let me know, right.
Otherwise I will proceed like ABC and here's a timeframe you can
get ahold of me and all the rest and give it a reasonable time.
Yeah.
Awesome.
But I'm not a lawyer.
I can't give legal advice, but I can talk about some of the
areas that we do operate in.
Cool.