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being emotionally aware of ourselves

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and other people as well

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it's about teaching them about the world

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it's about not putting them in front of a TV

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or an iPad or a screen

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and letting them learn about the world that way

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it's about actually showing them the world

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welcome back to Raising Men

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my guest today is Simon Rennie

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Simon is the founder and clinical lead at Mindful Men

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and the host of the Mindful Men Podcast

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a podcast about using mindfulness to cultivate a

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more meaningful existence Simon

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thank you so much for being here

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Sean thanks so much for having me

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I'm really looking forward to having a good chat

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now so do me a favor

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tell me about mindfulness

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and what is the impact on parents and sons

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oh fantastic question

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so mindfulness

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I guess means different things to different people

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but for me it means conscious awareness

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so being really conscious about what we're doing

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bringing the subconscious to the conscious

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being mindful being present um

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and particularly useful for parents

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who might be struggling with

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being on the same planet as their kids

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in the moment and

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you know thinking about work

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thinking about study

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or thinking about whatever else has to happen

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um so

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mindfulness enables us to be more present parents

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as well so that's in a nutshell what it means to me

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I love that definition it's

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it it

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it it feels very actionable

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I love I'm really looking forward to digging into it

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now I know from understanding your background

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I understand that there is a lot of struggle

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in your history and

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you know struggles come they

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they get imposed on us externally

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and that creates a feedback loop where

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where you know

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we just kind of go through it internally as well

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and we cause our own struggles to some degree

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can you take us back to the season

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where you realized that something needed to change

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in your life and what happened with that

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oh

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so much so many seasons in between um

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to take it back a little bit and rain me in

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if you need me cause I'll

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I'll go on and on and on about this by all means

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essentially when I was eight years old

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I developed obsessive compulsive disorder um

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which remained undiagnosed for 20 years

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and along the way

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developed depression and generalized anxiety as well

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but again remained undiagnosed

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and for many years I drank alcohol to

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to cope and to manage true um

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but it was around 2,012 when my

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my now wife encouraged me to go and get

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support for my mental health

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and for a couple years

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I kind of deflected and pushed it back on her saying

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well I don't have an issue if

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if you've got an issue

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maybe you should go and talk about it um

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but it took about two years for her to

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to keep pressing that button

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and then me realizing that I need to go get help

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so I did I went to my GP

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and then I went to see a psychologist

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and started the mental health treatment that I needed

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but I expected a magic fix

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I expected to go in do a couple of sessions

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come out and be healed and that didn't happen

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so fast forward to 2020

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I'm not sure if you remember what happened in 2020

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but we had the seal of Covid

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ha ha

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we had this thing called Covid

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I was working from home cause we were locked down

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we had 2 kids under 3

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so my wife was home with the kids um

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I was still drinking uh

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my mental health was off the rocket

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and I essentially burnt out

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so I was in a really high stress work environment

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I was studying a master's degree at the same time

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I had too many things on my plate and through burnout

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this is where I discovered mindfulness

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through my healing journey

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and it really put a lot of things into perspective

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um but it wasn't just about mindfulness

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it was about connecting in

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with what's called a lived experience therapist

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so someone who had an experience of burnout

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and was willing to share their experience of burnout

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and for the first time in my therapy journey

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it felt like I was being seen and heard

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and understood properly for the first time

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cause I've been to all these different therapists

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but it felt like there was always a disconnect

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yeah and so when I got this connection

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both through the therapist and my GP

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actually my GP shared about his burnout story too

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I started to realise ah there's some

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you know other people out there that feel like me and

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and have experienced similar to me

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and we're speaking the same language

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and through therapy found mindfulness

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and this ability to

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come back to the present and be present

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cause that's what I really needed when I was burnt out

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I was on a different planet uh

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the lights were on but nobody was home um

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and that would be with work

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that would be with my kids and my wife

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and I didn't like that um

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so this is to 2020 and

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and so five years on

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really starting to work on the mindfulness piece

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but also recovery from a proactive perspective

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rather than a reactive perspective

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you know I'm guessing

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that if your experience is anything like mine in

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in things like this

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you kick yourself for how much time you spent in denial

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about what you could do about your situation and

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and like you wasted all those years

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why is talking about mental health

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and seeking out mental health

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such a struggle for so many men

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I I experience it too

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and I really can't even access why

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I'm glad you asked that question

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cause it's probably where the story starts actually

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so I'm on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland

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but I grew up in a place called Adelaide

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in South Australia so different state

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different part of Australia

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isn't that and in the 30 minute

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daylight savings time

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I was 30 minutes yeah

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at the moment and then on the east coast

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we've got an hour

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depending on if you're in Melbourne or Sydney or

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or Hobart

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so we're a bit of a odd country in terms of daylight

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safe it's amazing

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it's amazing but I grew up in Adelaide alright

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I didn't mean to derail you no

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yeah you're right

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um I'm all about derails and

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and tangents so that's all good

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um I grew up in the northern suburbs of Adelaide

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which is very working class

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it's it's lower socio economic

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um my dad worked at the council

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my mum worked as a cleaner

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we weren't rich by any means

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and in the 80s and 90s which is when I grew up

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we didn't talk about mental health

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in fact men

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to be a boy and to be a man

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was to be strong and tough

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and suck it up and bottle it down

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and all those types of things and

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and that's how we dealt with emotions

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yeah now the

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the flip side of that is that boys were

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I guess allowed to show anger

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and many that's the case for many boys

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it was socially acceptable for a boy to show anger

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they still get in trouble

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wow yeah

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but it was more socially acceptable than to say

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sit there and cry about what's going on

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it's sad so true

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and so I embodied that

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I didn't have any positive male role models

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including my father and

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and sports coaches and teachers and friends

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who would go into the emotional side of things

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and so I learnt just like many boys and many men today

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and over the generations as well

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that to be a boy and to be a man was to suck it up

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yeah and so when I turned 8 and I developed OCD

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I didn't have the words to express or

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or the knowledge of how to express what was happening

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internally for me

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so it stayed a silent struggle

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and there was a little bit of shame

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a little bit of guilt about feeling different as well

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but I persevered and we kept going with it

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now this really ramped up around 13

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when mum and dad separated

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so I me and my little brother

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we moved out with mum

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and my two oldest brothers stayed with dad

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and this broke the family dynamic as well

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but I felt all of a sudden

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like there needed to be a man of the house

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and that man was me as a 13 year old

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wow what a burden

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and and that's what the

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that's what life was like in

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in that period of time there was a man of the house

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all my friends there was a man of the house

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whether it was a father

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whether it was an uncle staying with them

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whether it was a grandparent

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true but that was me as a 13 year old

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and this is where my mental health really declined

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because my obsessive compulsive disorder ramped up

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my depression ramped up my anxiety ramped up

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but I didn't know how to talk about it

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and so I just kept plugging away

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trying to live day to day

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and then I eventually found alcohol around 15

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and alcohol helped to slow my brain

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and slow the emotions and

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and feel normal if that makes sense

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it does and it just kept getting bottled and buried

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and buried and buried

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and this is what I see time in and time out in

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in the clinic work that I do now as a therapist is this

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this constant bottling up of emotions

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and this inability to share and express

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in a healthy way in fact

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one of the most common questions I get

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when we have someone call the clinic is Simon

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we're looking for a positive

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male role model for my 19 year old son

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or my 18 year old son

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um and so that's the work that we go on is

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is trying to show them that yes

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you can talk about this stuff

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and you're not gonna be seen as weak or

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or anything like that

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it's actually a strong thing to talk about

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your mental health

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but when we go back to why men are like this

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and why boys are like this is

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is this concept called

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social constructions of masculinity

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so we're socially constructed to feel

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and be a certain way based on our environment

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and based on time as well

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so I often talk about the 80s and 90s

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because that was a different time to 2,025

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you know we're talking about mental health now

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whereas we didn't do that in the 80s and 90s

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and with the work that I do with older men in my clinic

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the 70s 60s

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50s 40s

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they didn't talk about mental health right

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we do a lot of work with veterans

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for example and the older veterans

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so I'm talking World War 2

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um even Vietnam

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they're more reluctant to talk about mental health than

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say veterans who have been to Afghanistan or Iraq

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or anything like that because it's just so different

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it's a different time period

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and it's still seen as a weakness

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particularly for men

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yeah I

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I definitely it's almost like it's a

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it's a self imposed stigma that

277
00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:15,666
that we impose it on ourselves

278
00:11:15,666 --> 00:11:19,400
we feel shame about not being perfect

279
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,233
but if you're if you don't

280
00:11:23,333 --> 00:11:26,333
if you're not able to recognize your own imperfections

281
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,100
then you have no way of eliminating them

282
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:32,233
that's right and that's where mindfulness is

283
00:11:32,233 --> 00:11:33,800
actually plays a really good part is

284
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,933
is recognizing and being aware

285
00:11:35,933 --> 00:11:39,600
and self aware of what's going on inside of us

286
00:11:40,033 --> 00:11:41,000
and that's why I love

287
00:11:41,433 --> 00:11:45,200
that mindfulness and therapy can help

288
00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:48,000
dismantle that kind of

289
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,266
outdated model of masculinity and and

290
00:11:50,266 --> 00:11:51,900
and then what do you replace it with

291
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,200
well I guess new concepts of masculinity

292
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,300
so masculinity in itself isn't a bad thing

293
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,633
but often what's betrayed is that it is a bad thing

294
00:12:02,633 --> 00:12:03,433
because we talk

295
00:12:03,433 --> 00:12:07,033
usually talk about it within the concepts of patriarchy

296
00:12:07,466 --> 00:12:08,466
or um

297
00:12:08,466 --> 00:12:11,933
toxic masculinity or family and domestic violence

298
00:12:11,933 --> 00:12:13,766
or even suicide as well

299
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:15,800
and so when we talk about it

300
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,000
within those contexts it can be a negative tone

301
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,300
it can be a negative

302
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,533
reflection of what it means to be a boy and a man

303
00:12:23,866 --> 00:12:26,700
but there is something called healthy masculinity

304
00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:28,600
and this is what we work on in the clinics is

305
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:29,700
is around

306
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,066
looking back over how we learnt to be a boy and a man

307
00:12:33,066 --> 00:12:35,566
in fact I did that session yesterday with a client

308
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,433
what did it mean to be a boy and a man

309
00:12:37,433 --> 00:12:39,300
growing up for him wherever he grew up

310
00:12:39,300 --> 00:12:42,833
and within the time period that he grew up as well

311
00:12:43,233 --> 00:12:45,066
and then reflecting on

312
00:12:45,066 --> 00:12:47,133
what does it mean to be a dad now

313
00:12:47,133 --> 00:12:50,033
and what does it mean to be a boy for his sons

314
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,000
in the work that we've been doing as well

315
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,266
so we look back in a

316
00:12:54,266 --> 00:12:57,266
in a way that is critically reflective

317
00:12:57,266 --> 00:13:00,733
and we look back at why we were the way we were and the

318
00:13:00,733 --> 00:13:02,700
the influences around us

319
00:13:02,833 --> 00:13:04,333
and then we look at the present

320
00:13:04,333 --> 00:13:06,133
how are we showing up today

321
00:13:06,533 --> 00:13:08,333
and then we look forward to the future

322
00:13:08,333 --> 00:13:10,066
as how do we wanna show up

323
00:13:10,066 --> 00:13:12,033
how do we want our boys particularly

324
00:13:12,033 --> 00:13:15,000
and our daughters to be in their

325
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,266
when they're adults how do we make them

326
00:13:17,266 --> 00:13:20,100
or help them and support them to be good humans

327
00:13:20,533 --> 00:13:21,533
and it starts with us

328
00:13:21,533 --> 00:13:24,033
it starts with us recognizing how we are

329
00:13:24,033 --> 00:13:25,833
and then growing from there

330
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,600
you've talked a lot about

331
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,933
about your work with men what is one misconception

332
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,966
that you see that men have about seeking help

333
00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:41,733
a misconception is that they don't have the ability

334
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,366
to seek help we all have the ability

335
00:13:45,633 --> 00:13:49,033
yeah it's just about knowing when's the right time

336
00:13:49,033 --> 00:13:51,533
and finding the right support as well

337
00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:53,600
like I'd been in and out of therapy

338
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,466
for the better part of 10 years

339
00:13:55,466 --> 00:13:56,866
and been to different therapists

340
00:13:56,866 --> 00:13:59,133
but I never really felt connected

341
00:13:59,233 --> 00:14:00,733
to a lot of the therapists

342
00:14:00,733 --> 00:14:02,200
so it felt like a chore

343
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,800
rather than something that was self development

344
00:14:05,233 --> 00:14:08,100
and something that I could achieve success through

345
00:14:08,233 --> 00:14:09,033
yeah um

346
00:14:09,066 --> 00:14:11,233
so it's about yeah

347
00:14:11,233 --> 00:14:12,033
like and like

348
00:14:12,033 --> 00:14:13,333
so many therapists

349
00:14:13,333 --> 00:14:17,033
who don't share an element of themselves

350
00:14:17,033 --> 00:14:18,900
it feels like they're just reading from a book

351
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,100
to help you yeah

352
00:14:21,233 --> 00:14:22,433
which is what

353
00:14:22,433 --> 00:14:25,066
what I like to do because I've lived through

354
00:14:25,066 --> 00:14:25,900
you know better

355
00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:29,733
half of the three decades of mental health struggle

356
00:14:30,066 --> 00:14:32,100
is bringing in that lived experience

357
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:34,233
so once we can do that we can foster a

358
00:14:34,233 --> 00:14:37,333
a a stronger connection with men

359
00:14:37,333 --> 00:14:38,700
because they can recognize that

360
00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:40,400
they're not the only person in the room

361
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,566
who's had struggle

362
00:14:42,133 --> 00:14:44,266
and they can see me doing the work

363
00:14:44,266 --> 00:14:46,700
and I always say I'm a therapist in therapy

364
00:14:47,233 --> 00:14:49,866
and that the work that we do in our sessions

365
00:14:49,866 --> 00:14:51,600
is the work that I do on myself

366
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,633
so it works I know it works

367
00:14:54,866 --> 00:14:57,533
but I also recognize that what works for me

368
00:14:57,533 --> 00:14:59,266
doesn't necessarily work for them

369
00:14:59,266 --> 00:15:02,133
so it's all about showing them the way

370
00:15:02,133 --> 00:15:03,866
showing men the way and going

371
00:15:03,866 --> 00:15:05,466
this is a pathway I've taken

372
00:15:05,466 --> 00:15:06,700
it might be similar to yours

373
00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:09,933
it might be different but we'll work together as a team

374
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:11,933
men like to work as a team

375
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,733
and we'll come up with solutions together

376
00:15:13,733 --> 00:15:15,500
we'll figure out what works for you

377
00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:18,566
and so this misconception that men can't do it

378
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,933
is really wrong because actually

379
00:15:19,933 --> 00:15:22,500
once they come in you can't shut them up

380
00:15:22,666 --> 00:15:25,400
they just wanna talk talk and talk and talk

381
00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:28,300
yeah but so that feel on and that rock around your home

382
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:29,300
I yeah

383
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:30,100
I I

384
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:31,033
I can add you know

385
00:15:31,033 --> 00:15:34,033
the metaphor that comes to mind for that for me is

386
00:15:34,033 --> 00:15:35,900
it's like finding a wreck

387
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:39,033
an exercise that resonates with you

388
00:15:39,033 --> 00:15:42,433
and it's like you you really wanna be doing

389
00:15:42,466 --> 00:15:44,433
go to the gym and be doing weights

390
00:15:44,666 --> 00:15:47,933
but then you end up in a yoga class and you're

391
00:15:47,933 --> 00:15:48,933
you're frustrated and well

392
00:15:48,933 --> 00:15:50,200
that's exercise right

393
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,466
and then and then you go to a Pilates class

394
00:15:52,466 --> 00:15:53,300
and it's a different thing

395
00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:55,700
and then you join a running group and it's just not a

396
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:57,666
it's not the fit it's not what you're looking for

397
00:15:57,666 --> 00:15:59,433
and then you finally get to the gym

398
00:15:59,433 --> 00:16:02,233
and you have a trainer who works out himself

399
00:16:02,333 --> 00:16:05,166
and he pushes rates too and you're like yes

400
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:06,700
this is what I've been looking for

401
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:08,833
and there's nothing wrong with those other modalities

402
00:16:08,833 --> 00:16:11,200
there's nothing wrong with yoga and Pilates and running

403
00:16:11,233 --> 00:16:13,133
but it's not right for me

404
00:16:14,933 --> 00:16:17,866
100% that reminded me of high school right

405
00:16:17,866 --> 00:16:19,633
like so I was very athletic

406
00:16:19,633 --> 00:16:21,033
did a lot of sports

407
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:24,400
there was one sport that I absolutely hated

408
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:25,800
and that was netball

409
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:27,733
and so we used

410
00:16:27,733 --> 00:16:29,733
I used to go to the courts and shoot hoops

411
00:16:29,733 --> 00:16:30,833
and play basketball

412
00:16:30,833 --> 00:16:33,400
and I liked it because it was running around right

413
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:34,866
but netball when you get the ball

414
00:16:34,866 --> 00:16:39,133
you've got to stop and I felt really restricted there

415
00:16:39,133 --> 00:16:41,533
yeah like I felt like I had to move like I

416
00:16:41,533 --> 00:16:45,133
it was it was unnatural for me not to move cause I

417
00:16:45,266 --> 00:16:46,266
it wasn't just basketball

418
00:16:46,266 --> 00:16:48,000
I played Australian rules footy

419
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,066
I played soccer I did athletics

420
00:16:50,066 --> 00:16:51,933
I was always on the move right

421
00:16:51,933 --> 00:16:54,200
and it's the same like it was just the rings

422
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,633
anytime we were touching the ball

423
00:16:55,733 --> 00:16:58,433
you're the target you need to you need to get going

424
00:16:59,066 --> 00:17:00,866
that's right and so I had to move

425
00:17:00,866 --> 00:17:04,033
and so it's about finding the right support for you

426
00:17:04,033 --> 00:17:05,833
so sometimes that's therapy

427
00:17:05,833 --> 00:17:09,433
but sometimes a lot of the case is actually self care

428
00:17:09,833 --> 00:17:11,700
it's about what exercise are you doing

429
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:12,866
or what food are you eating

430
00:17:12,866 --> 00:17:14,633
or how are you sleeping or

431
00:17:14,633 --> 00:17:16,466
you know we talk about the addiction stuff

432
00:17:16,466 --> 00:17:17,833
so drinking drugs

433
00:17:17,833 --> 00:17:19,800
gambling porn addiction

434
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,066
all those types of things

435
00:17:21,066 --> 00:17:23,233
how do we find balance in everything

436
00:17:23,266 --> 00:17:25,600
so that everything is working together

437
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,100
as opposed to apart

438
00:17:27,633 --> 00:17:29,000
it's a feedback mechanism

439
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,033
isn't it because as

440
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,566
as your your kind of health declines

441
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:37,833
you seek out more of those self medicating activities

442
00:17:37,833 --> 00:17:40,133
which cause your health decline even more

443
00:17:40,133 --> 00:17:41,933
which causes you to seek them out even more and

444
00:17:41,933 --> 00:17:44,200
and you just keep spiraling down

445
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,000
don't you

446
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:46,933
well that's a dopamine hit right

447
00:17:46,933 --> 00:17:48,400
so we do things that

448
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,033
like drinking for me felt good initially

449
00:17:51,033 --> 00:17:52,700
and it was for fun yeah

450
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:54,500
um but over time

451
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,033
I was getting those dopamine hits

452
00:17:56,033 --> 00:17:58,466
but then the more and more I drank

453
00:17:58,466 --> 00:18:01,900
the more and more I needed to get that same hit right

454
00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:04,633
and so it's the same with all sorts of addictions is

455
00:18:04,633 --> 00:18:06,333
is the more we do it the

456
00:18:06,333 --> 00:18:08,133
the more we need to do it

457
00:18:08,133 --> 00:18:11,533
in order to find that same level of satisfaction

458
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,066
but we can get through those things

459
00:18:14,066 --> 00:18:15,233
through something like therapy

460
00:18:15,233 --> 00:18:17,633
or even talking about it or even just re

461
00:18:17,633 --> 00:18:20,200
evaluating our values and our goals in life

462
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,500
we can actually do it without a therapist

463
00:18:22,733 --> 00:18:25,600
um it's just about mindset

464
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,133
how do we get into the right mindset

465
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:31,300
and do things for the right reasons

466
00:18:31,466 --> 00:18:34,033
and do things in a sustainable way as well

467
00:18:34,033 --> 00:18:36,400
not throwing everything at it all at once

468
00:18:38,033 --> 00:18:38,933
yeah

469
00:18:39,466 --> 00:18:39,833
so

470
00:18:39,833 --> 00:18:45,766
let's connect this to the mission of raising powerful

471
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:46,800
capable men

472
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,533
what does being a mindful parent mean to you

473
00:18:52,633 --> 00:18:53,700
well it's

474
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:55,900
I think a lot of patience

475
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:57,566
absolutely

476
00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:00,133
so I've got an eight year old

477
00:19:00,133 --> 00:19:01,300
I've got a five year old

478
00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:04,500
so being very and I also coach under eight soccer

479
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:06,033
so you can imagine ten

480
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,266
eight year olds running around trying to

481
00:19:08,266 --> 00:19:11,966
trying to herd cats on a tin roof basically um

482
00:19:12,033 --> 00:19:14,000
it's about being patient

483
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:17,533
it's about being present as well

484
00:19:17,533 --> 00:19:21,066
so focusing on our kids rather than on our work

485
00:19:21,066 --> 00:19:22,833
or what we have to do tomorrow

486
00:19:22,833 --> 00:19:25,133
or whatever else is going on

487
00:19:25,366 --> 00:19:28,133
and I think for the modern day father

488
00:19:28,133 --> 00:19:31,166
particularly is about being emotionally aware

489
00:19:31,866 --> 00:19:34,133
and it's emotionally aware of ourselves

490
00:19:34,133 --> 00:19:37,366
how are we going how are we showing up

491
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,300
but also supporting our kids to be emotionally aware

492
00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:42,033
and understand that it's okay to be

493
00:19:42,033 --> 00:19:42,533
not okay

494
00:19:42,533 --> 00:19:45,133
and it's actually a safe thing for them to come to us

495
00:19:45,133 --> 00:19:46,600
and talk about their emotions

496
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,200
because what often happens in therapy is

497
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,600
the guys that come in particularly the dads

498
00:19:53,066 --> 00:19:58,100
they want to be anything but a version of their dad

499
00:19:58,266 --> 00:20:02,200
yeah so it's about supporting parents

500
00:20:02,233 --> 00:20:05,500
both mums and dads but particularly dads to

501
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,700
to have that emotional awareness

502
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:10,400
to have that awareness of where they've come from

503
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,400
where they are where they wanna be

504
00:20:12,666 --> 00:20:15,433
and being as present and patient as possible

505
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,733
I imagine that even if you yourself had an amazing dad

506
00:20:23,633 --> 00:20:26,133
there's still some amount of that departure

507
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:27,833
that is necessary

508
00:20:27,833 --> 00:20:32,300
because the world is so different than it was

509
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:33,766
when we were children

510
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,533
and so in order to give our

511
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:41,133
our sons the skills that they're gonna need to

512
00:20:41,133 --> 00:20:44,300
be powerful in the world that they're gonna grow up in

513
00:20:44,533 --> 00:20:46,066
it can't be the same old playbook

514
00:20:46,066 --> 00:20:46,866
can it

515
00:20:47,666 --> 00:20:48,500
well it can't be

516
00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:49,600
cause you just look at the world

517
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,466
the way the world's going yeah

518
00:20:51,466 --> 00:20:52,600
I had this um

519
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,833
when we when our kids went to started school um

520
00:20:57,133 --> 00:20:59,700
the principal sat down with all the new parents

521
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:01,800
and was talking about career pathways

522
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,266
for example and I remember my dad

523
00:21:04,266 --> 00:21:05,933
he had two career pathways

524
00:21:05,933 --> 00:21:07,300
he was a bricklayer initially

525
00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:09,833
and then he went to the council and mum was a cleaner

526
00:21:09,833 --> 00:21:12,900
and then she became an enrolled nurse over time

527
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,933
and I've looked at my career

528
00:21:14,933 --> 00:21:18,500
and I've had probably about 10 different jobs yeah

529
00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:21,400
and I'm only you know 42 yeah

530
00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:23,400
but the principal sat down and he said

531
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,533
your children

532
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,133
will have up to 20+ careers in their lifetime

533
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:31,800
and that's not necessarily a bad thing

534
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,366
it's just a a

535
00:21:33,933 --> 00:21:37,466
a reflection of the time technology is advancing

536
00:21:37,466 --> 00:21:38,866
we're doing things differently

537
00:21:38,866 --> 00:21:41,333
there's gonna be new industries that grow

538
00:21:41,333 --> 00:21:43,733
there's gonna be old industries that die out

539
00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:45,533
through technology and so

540
00:21:45,533 --> 00:21:50,000
it's about our ability to adapt and be adaptable

541
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,700
and be accepting of of adaptation as well

542
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:54,833
not holding on to those old playbooks

543
00:21:55,133 --> 00:21:57,200
now what often happens is

544
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,300
we revert back to how our parents parented us often

545
00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:02,733
so my dad was a yeller

546
00:22:02,733 --> 00:22:06,600
for example and so sometimes when I'm disre regulated

547
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,233
I might yell at my kids

548
00:22:08,833 --> 00:22:10,033
but I consciously

549
00:22:10,033 --> 00:22:12,833
am aware that that's not the dad that I wanna be

550
00:22:13,066 --> 00:22:14,733
so I've gone back to the old playbook

551
00:22:14,733 --> 00:22:16,633
because it's ingrained in me

552
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:19,700
but then I've also turned the page to the new playbook

553
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:20,433
and going OK

554
00:22:20,433 --> 00:22:22,266
this is what I've got to work on next time

555
00:22:22,266 --> 00:22:22,633
and so

556
00:22:22,633 --> 00:22:26,133
now we're talking about being an imperfect parent

557
00:22:26,133 --> 00:22:27,533
and being OK with that

558
00:22:27,533 --> 00:22:29,666
because we can't get it right all the time

559
00:22:29,666 --> 00:22:31,633
as long as we're getting it right most of the time

560
00:22:31,633 --> 00:22:33,866
then we're doing alright yeah

561
00:22:33,866 --> 00:22:37,233
and it actually gives you an opportunity to apologize

562
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:39,233
to your son and say

563
00:22:39,233 --> 00:22:39,800
listen man

564
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,266
that's not the way I need to be acting

565
00:22:41,266 --> 00:22:43,433
I'm really sorry and that's

566
00:22:43,733 --> 00:22:45,566
that's modeling the right behavior

567
00:22:46,466 --> 00:22:47,600
well how many of our

568
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,766
our parents did that right

569
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:50,133
it it

570
00:22:50,133 --> 00:22:52,600
it wasn't part of the equation back then

571
00:22:52,733 --> 00:22:53,933
it wasn't so

572
00:22:53,933 --> 00:22:55,800
being able to rebuild bridges

573
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,300
or mend bridges is a really important part

574
00:22:58,300 --> 00:22:59,033
and that's

575
00:22:59,033 --> 00:23:01,600
that's emotional awareness that's being present

576
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,166
it's recognizing that we're

577
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,833
we're not perfect and it's mending the relationship

578
00:23:06,833 --> 00:23:09,233
because the last thing I want as a dad is my

579
00:23:09,233 --> 00:23:11,833
my son and my daughter to grow up resenting me

580
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,800
because I wasn't there and I wasn't emotionally aware

581
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,366
and that's a constant fear that I have

582
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,333
you know knowing where I've come from

583
00:23:19,333 --> 00:23:20,633
knowing the work that I do

584
00:23:20,633 --> 00:23:23,366
and hearing the stories that I hear every single day

585
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,433
but it's not something that's gonna hold me back

586
00:23:25,433 --> 00:23:27,466
it's gonna be something that fuels

587
00:23:27,466 --> 00:23:29,266
me to be the best dad that I can be

588
00:23:29,266 --> 00:23:31,433
and the best partner I can be to my wife too

589
00:23:31,433 --> 00:23:32,233
yeah

590
00:23:32,866 --> 00:23:33,733
yeah again

591
00:23:33,733 --> 00:23:35,433
that's going back to that feedback thing

592
00:23:35,433 --> 00:23:37,133
that's a virtuous feedback

593
00:23:37,833 --> 00:23:39,200
that's a virtuous feedback loop

594
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,466
you do those things you get rewarded for it

595
00:23:42,466 --> 00:23:43,633
your life is easier it

596
00:23:43,633 --> 00:23:45,600
it feels like you're closer

597
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,600
more connected you're more of a man that

598
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,733
that you wanna be and so

599
00:23:50,733 --> 00:23:53,833
that causes you to engage with more healthy activities

600
00:23:53,833 --> 00:23:56,000
and think about things more

601
00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:57,500
in a more helpful way

602
00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,066
yeah absolutely

603
00:23:59,066 --> 00:24:00,100
and I think

604
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:02,633
when we talk about things like anxiety and depression

605
00:24:02,633 --> 00:24:03,333
for example

606
00:24:03,333 --> 00:24:06,500
we're often stuck in a negative feedback loop

607
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:08,900
whether it's thinking too much about the future

608
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,300
so that's that hyper arousal state

609
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:12,966
that's that anxiety state

610
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:14,733
or thinking too much about the past

611
00:24:14,733 --> 00:24:16,700
that's that hypo arousal state

612
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:18,833
and that can get stuck and when

613
00:24:18,833 --> 00:24:20,900
that's when we start feeling like we're failing

614
00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:22,200
as parents or as

615
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,400
or as men as well so

616
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,300
it's about recognizing those emotions

617
00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:27,033
when they come up

618
00:24:27,033 --> 00:24:29,833
and recognizing how do we get through that

619
00:24:29,833 --> 00:24:32,000
so that we can be more present with ourselves

620
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,633
but also our families as well

621
00:24:33,633 --> 00:24:35,466
and and it's doing the things like

622
00:24:35,466 --> 00:24:36,933
self care that we talked about

623
00:24:36,933 --> 00:24:39,300
but it's also doing the things that make us feel good

624
00:24:39,633 --> 00:24:41,000
we're we're too

625
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,000
I think focused on the

626
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,866
you know the hustle these days in the 24 7

627
00:24:45,866 --> 00:24:49,266
world that we live in and there's not enough downtime

628
00:24:49,266 --> 00:24:53,466
where we can relax and rest recuperate um

629
00:24:53,466 --> 00:24:56,100
and be really present in the moment

630
00:24:56,133 --> 00:24:58,100
now the feedback loop as well

631
00:24:58,466 --> 00:25:00,466
it reinforces different behaviours

632
00:25:00,466 --> 00:25:02,133
so if we're doing negative things

633
00:25:02,133 --> 00:25:04,133
it's gonna reinforce that as

634
00:25:04,133 --> 00:25:05,533
as a coping mechanism

635
00:25:05,533 --> 00:25:07,466
so we're gonna be stuck in that negative way

636
00:25:07,466 --> 00:25:09,400
but if we can flip the script

637
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,133
and think a bit more positively

638
00:25:11,133 --> 00:25:12,200
and that's really hard

639
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,733
I recognize that it can be hard in the modern world um

640
00:25:15,733 --> 00:25:17,500
we can turn things around

641
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:20,500
and we can come out of things and grow

642
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:21,733
and be better dads as

643
00:25:21,733 --> 00:25:23,233
as we do it as well

644
00:25:24,033 --> 00:25:25,600
you know there's I I

645
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,600
I what you're saying really resonates with me because I

646
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,266
I feel like I have to be doing something

647
00:25:32,266 --> 00:25:34,533
or else I'm dropping the ball

648
00:25:34,533 --> 00:25:36,600
I'm I'm not being the

649
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,666
the parent I need to be I'm not being the

650
00:25:39,666 --> 00:25:41,900
the worker I need to be I'm not

651
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:45,533
I'm not succeeding and if I'm ever sitting idle

652
00:25:45,533 --> 00:25:49,133
it doesn't feel right and that's unhealthy

653
00:25:49,133 --> 00:25:50,266
isn't it that's

654
00:25:50,266 --> 00:25:52,900
that's what you're describing as part of the thing

655
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:54,433
I need to be able to unplug

656
00:25:54,433 --> 00:25:57,133
I need to be able to be present with my kids

657
00:25:57,133 --> 00:25:59,800
I need to be able to to

658
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,200
to disconnect and just ride in the right groove

659
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,000
don't I

660
00:26:04,633 --> 00:26:05,666
yeah absolutely

661
00:26:05,666 --> 00:26:07,400
I was talking to her dad yesterday in

662
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,033
in the clinic and we were talking about his REM

663
00:26:11,033 --> 00:26:13,033
his memories of his father

664
00:26:13,533 --> 00:26:15,800
and it was to provide and so

665
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,833
when we link that in with men in general

666
00:26:18,833 --> 00:26:21,600
and the patriarchy in patriarchal society

667
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,366
it's men are providers

668
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:24,100
yes and so

669
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:26,333
if we're sitting idle and not providing

670
00:26:26,333 --> 00:26:28,400
not providing whether it's financially

671
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,333
whether it's security whether it's whatever

672
00:26:31,633 --> 00:26:34,300
we feel like we're not living up to this notion of

673
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:35,400
what it means to be a

674
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,633
a man and a and a leader as well

675
00:26:38,733 --> 00:26:41,000
but the rest component is really important

676
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,400
because back when our parents were

677
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,466
were parents well

678
00:26:45,466 --> 00:26:46,266
you know they're still parents

679
00:26:46,266 --> 00:26:47,633
I guess but back a few

680
00:26:47,633 --> 00:26:49,766
few generations ago yeah

681
00:26:50,033 --> 00:26:51,033
yeah they weren't

682
00:26:51,033 --> 00:26:52,800
they were 9 to 5 man

683
00:26:52,933 --> 00:26:56,466
they weren't they weren't 24 7 like we are today

684
00:26:56,466 --> 00:26:58,100
and they came home and work with it

685
00:26:58,466 --> 00:26:59,933
they came home after work

686
00:26:59,933 --> 00:27:02,033
and we came home when the lights came on

687
00:27:02,033 --> 00:27:03,833
on on the street lamps and so forth

688
00:27:03,833 --> 00:27:05,700
and we were together and on the weekends

689
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:08,333
we didn't do a huge amount of things

690
00:27:08,333 --> 00:27:10,000
just to keep ourselves entertained

691
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:10,533
we we

692
00:27:10,533 --> 00:27:13,033
we learnt how to entertain

693
00:27:13,033 --> 00:27:15,366
entertain ourselves if we're bored

694
00:27:16,066 --> 00:27:16,666
you know and

695
00:27:16,666 --> 00:27:18,000
and so it's a

696
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,866
it's a very different world that we live in

697
00:27:19,866 --> 00:27:22,133
so I think a lot of parents these days

698
00:27:22,133 --> 00:27:24,200
are trying to learn to disconnect

699
00:27:25,033 --> 00:27:28,200
yeah and be more connected with their families

700
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,533
through the disconnection of work

701
00:27:30,533 --> 00:27:33,100
particularly because of that hustle and

702
00:27:33,100 --> 00:27:35,433
and Covid was a bit of a a negative

703
00:27:35,466 --> 00:27:37,700
part of this because it during covid

704
00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:40,066
everyone thought they need to get side hustles

705
00:27:40,066 --> 00:27:41,000
and side hustles

706
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,500
and this is where the podcast world exploded really

707
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:45,200
that became a side hustle

708
00:27:45,233 --> 00:27:46,300
absolutely and so

709
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:49,833
it's just about learning to disconnect

710
00:27:50,133 --> 00:27:51,900
but be connected at the same time

711
00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:53,433
it's it's a real struggle

712
00:27:53,633 --> 00:27:55,500
um but we can provide in

713
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:57,300
in that moment when we are disconnected

714
00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:00,333
we're providing emotional security

715
00:28:01,033 --> 00:28:03,666
we're providing great fatherhood and and

716
00:28:03,666 --> 00:28:07,633
and motherhood and we're providing fun

717
00:28:08,466 --> 00:28:09,300
yeah and

718
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:10,500
and modeling these are

719
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:12,233
these are the things yeah

720
00:28:12,233 --> 00:28:14,166
and these are the things that our kids want

721
00:28:14,533 --> 00:28:15,666
yeah I always

722
00:28:15,666 --> 00:28:18,700
I think since becoming a father

723
00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:20,733
what it has been really clear to me

724
00:28:20,733 --> 00:28:23,500
the myriad of tensions that we experience

725
00:28:24,033 --> 00:28:29,000
and that tension between wanting to be a provider

726
00:28:29,533 --> 00:28:32,900
and not wanting to work all the time

727
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:33,800
or not you

728
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,466
knowing that working all the time

729
00:28:35,466 --> 00:28:37,000
isn't the way to be the best provider

730
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,300
because providing money isn't the only thing

731
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:40,300
you're supposed to be providing

732
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:41,800
you're supposed to be providing safety

733
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,733
you're supposed to be providing comfort

734
00:28:43,733 --> 00:28:45,166
you're supposed to be providing

735
00:28:45,466 --> 00:28:46,500
you know walled garden

736
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:47,300
so to speak

737
00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:50,166
and there's a tension between those two things

738
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,200
um I

739
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:51,633
you know

740
00:28:51,933 --> 00:28:53,900
there there's a saying that goes

741
00:28:54,033 --> 00:28:55,233
nobody ever wished

742
00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:56,700
that they spent more time in the office

743
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:00,166
on their deathbed and I think that that's true

744
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,600
but it's also not true

745
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,700
because there are people who go to their deathbed

746
00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:05,466
wishing that

747
00:29:05,466 --> 00:29:07,500
they had provided better for their families

748
00:29:08,133 --> 00:29:09,933
and and so again it

749
00:29:09,933 --> 00:29:11,533
it goes back to that tension

750
00:29:11,533 --> 00:29:14,366
you need to find the right mix

751
00:29:14,633 --> 00:29:19,400
in order to get the best balance

752
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:21,433
of that

753
00:29:21,733 --> 00:29:24,600
and that is that's the difficulty

754
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,766
and I feel like that's the thing

755
00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:29,733
that mindfulness can really help cultivate

756
00:29:30,133 --> 00:29:31,200
in ourselves

757
00:29:31,933 --> 00:29:32,733
absolutely

758
00:29:32,733 --> 00:29:37,233
I often talk about control in sessions with my clients

759
00:29:37,233 --> 00:29:39,466
it's when we feel like

760
00:29:39,466 --> 00:29:41,733
maybe our mental health has got out of control

761
00:29:41,733 --> 00:29:43,200
and physical health as well

762
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,233
because it's one and the same

763
00:29:45,866 --> 00:29:48,833
we try to control it by doing certain things

764
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:49,333
so for me

765
00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:50,833
it was drinking for 25 years

766
00:29:50,833 --> 00:29:53,800
I tried to control my mental illness with drinking

767
00:29:53,833 --> 00:29:56,333
yeah and that wasn't necessarily healthy

768
00:29:56,633 --> 00:29:57,200
sure um

769
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,333
and there was also a very big cultural element here

770
00:29:59,333 --> 00:30:01,533
as well it's very acceptable to drink in Australia

771
00:30:01,533 --> 00:30:02,800
we're big drinkers right

772
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:03,600
yeah

773
00:30:04,133 --> 00:30:06,633
but I often say in order to regain control

774
00:30:06,633 --> 00:30:08,533
we have to let go of control

775
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,700
and so we can this is us recognizing that

776
00:30:13,066 --> 00:30:14,633
stuff in our life is happening

777
00:30:14,633 --> 00:30:16,066
things that we can control

778
00:30:16,066 --> 00:30:17,933
but also things that we can't control

779
00:30:17,933 --> 00:30:20,433
like maybe we do need to go and work a job

780
00:30:20,433 --> 00:30:21,633
or two jobs or three jobs

781
00:30:21,633 --> 00:30:23,600
or whatever we do but

782
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,433
there's certain things in our life that we can control

783
00:30:26,433 --> 00:30:29,100
and a lot of that in the parenting space is

784
00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:31,833
is being present being mindful

785
00:30:31,833 --> 00:30:34,066
being connected when we have

786
00:30:34,066 --> 00:30:35,400
even if it's five minutes

787
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,266
a day if we're in and out of the door

788
00:30:37,266 --> 00:30:39,533
because we're providing for our family

789
00:30:40,133 --> 00:30:42,833
if we're providing that five minutes a day

790
00:30:42,833 --> 00:30:45,500
where our kids see us doing what we're doing

791
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:48,333
with a purpose and with values and

792
00:30:48,333 --> 00:30:50,300
and we're not just you know

793
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:52,533
ignoring them we're actually connecting in with them

794
00:30:52,533 --> 00:30:53,733
as much as we can

795
00:30:53,733 --> 00:30:56,700
then they learn that they see that and that's help

796
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:58,800
what helps them to grow as well

797
00:30:59,333 --> 00:31:01,800
but one of the other things that we learn in and

798
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:02,533
and I teach in

799
00:31:02,533 --> 00:31:06,100
in my sessions is about living by our values

800
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:09,500
so when we are looking back on our deathbed

801
00:31:10,233 --> 00:31:12,833
and we can look at our lives and reflect

802
00:31:12,833 --> 00:31:15,166
did I achieve what I want to achieve

803
00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:17,833
if we can live most of our life

804
00:31:17,833 --> 00:31:20,100
according to a good set of values

805
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:20,466
and we yeah

806
00:31:20,466 --> 00:31:23,000
that's what we can impart to our kids

807
00:31:23,233 --> 00:31:24,466
then we can as

808
00:31:24,466 --> 00:31:25,133
ultimately

809
00:31:25,133 --> 00:31:27,833
fall asleep knowing that we've done our best

810
00:31:27,833 --> 00:31:29,133
and yeah I think that's right

811
00:31:30,533 --> 00:31:33,033
and at least you did it on purpose right

812
00:31:33,033 --> 00:31:34,500
whatever you did

813
00:31:34,933 --> 00:31:38,100
you did it intentionally and with purpose

814
00:31:38,466 --> 00:31:40,933
and yeah you should feel good about that right

815
00:31:40,933 --> 00:31:43,433
as opposed to you don't want to look back and think man

816
00:31:43,433 --> 00:31:44,733
all that stuff happened by accident

817
00:31:44,733 --> 00:31:46,300
and even if it was good

818
00:31:47,066 --> 00:31:48,866
all that stuff happened by accident here

819
00:31:48,866 --> 00:31:50,533
so so tell me this

820
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,633
when and how

821
00:31:54,066 --> 00:31:57,366
do we start to cultivate mindfulness in our sons

822
00:31:58,633 --> 00:31:59,433
hmm

823
00:32:00,666 --> 00:32:03,533
from day 1 which is really hard

824
00:32:03,533 --> 00:32:06,800
so when we think about parenting

825
00:32:07,666 --> 00:32:09,466
it's often the dad goes to work

826
00:32:09,466 --> 00:32:11,600
mum stays home yeah

827
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:14,966
so one option is to become a stay at home dad

828
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,200
hmm

829
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:18,133
and be really present right

830
00:32:18,133 --> 00:32:20,400
so this is that connection piece

831
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,633
this is about connecting and

832
00:32:21,633 --> 00:32:24,533
and actually challenging social norms

833
00:32:24,533 --> 00:32:26,500
cause this is a social norm thing right

834
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:28,466
the dad goes to work the mum stays home

835
00:32:28,466 --> 00:32:30,733
so that's one element I tried it for a little bit

836
00:32:30,733 --> 00:32:31,933
but I really struggled with it

837
00:32:31,933 --> 00:32:33,800
so we had to reverse that role

838
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:37,233
my wife reminded me that of that yesterday actually

839
00:32:39,466 --> 00:32:41,900
but it's it's about connection

840
00:32:42,266 --> 00:32:44,500
and it's about being there and being present

841
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:44,733
now

842
00:32:44,733 --> 00:32:47,000
mindfulness is not something you'd go to your kids to

843
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,333
and say let's be mindful because they probably like

844
00:32:50,333 --> 00:32:52,100
what are you talking about exactly

845
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:53,333
but it's through actions

846
00:32:53,333 --> 00:32:57,266
it's through how we display living by values

847
00:32:57,266 --> 00:32:59,800
it's about you know um

848
00:33:00,333 --> 00:33:02,900
being emotionally aware of ourselves

849
00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:04,500
and other people as well

850
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:06,900
it's about teaching them about the world

851
00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:10,233
it's about not putting them in front of a TV or an iPad

852
00:33:10,433 --> 00:33:11,300
or a screen

853
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:13,600
and letting them learn about the world that way

854
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,700
it's about actually showing them the world

855
00:33:17,133 --> 00:33:18,833
it's about going camping it's about fishing

856
00:33:18,833 --> 00:33:23,300
it's about doing the things that make us feel good

857
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:25,900
but also slow down time at the same time

858
00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:28,000
because we only have infinite number of well

859
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:28,866
we don't have an infinite

860
00:33:28,866 --> 00:33:32,100
we only have a certain number of Christmases

861
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:33,366
with our families

862
00:33:33,933 --> 00:33:36,366
ultimately those Christmases will run out

863
00:33:36,533 --> 00:33:40,233
that is such a powerful powerful framing

864
00:33:40,233 --> 00:33:44,700
that these activities are ways of slowing down time

865
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:46,400
in a really pleasurable way

866
00:33:46,866 --> 00:33:50,566
and we really do we have

867
00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:53,566
it's the one way we have

868
00:33:53,933 --> 00:33:57,133
of extending this resource that is so limited

869
00:33:57,133 --> 00:33:59,800
it's the one thing that we can't ever get back

870
00:34:00,066 --> 00:34:01,833
but we can slow it down

871
00:34:03,066 --> 00:34:05,100
that's such a powerful sentiment

872
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:06,100
I love it

873
00:34:06,666 --> 00:34:09,466
how can we begin right now

874
00:34:09,466 --> 00:34:12,333
what can I do when I get off this

875
00:34:12,333 --> 00:34:21,200
this this call to help raise my son in a way with

876
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,333
with strength and softness and

877
00:34:23,333 --> 00:34:25,666
and being mindful and and

878
00:34:25,666 --> 00:34:26,400
and give me

879
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,133
give me one tactical thing that I could go do right now

880
00:34:29,833 --> 00:34:33,400
I think it's working on ourselves as dads

881
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:35,533
we gotta start here

882
00:34:35,533 --> 00:34:38,500
within ourselves before we can even help somebody else

883
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:41,266
it's like the plane that's falling out of the sky

884
00:34:41,266 --> 00:34:43,600
you gotta put your own oxygen mask on first

885
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,700
before you help anyone else

886
00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:46,900
because otherwise you both gonna perish

887
00:34:47,233 --> 00:34:52,400
and so I think it's reflecting on how we're going today

888
00:34:52,433 --> 00:34:54,000
how we really going like

889
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,500
are we showing up in a way that we wanna show up

890
00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:58,800
are we being the best dad that we can be

891
00:34:59,333 --> 00:35:00,600
and if not

892
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,866
that's OK we can turn things around

893
00:35:03,866 --> 00:35:07,233
and so what I do is I I liken it to the car tune up

894
00:35:07,233 --> 00:35:07,800
a lot of guys

895
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,833
like cars or can kind of identify with a car

896
00:35:10,833 --> 00:35:13,066
so you take your car to the mechanic once a year

897
00:35:13,066 --> 00:35:15,600
it gets service and then it's back on the road

898
00:35:15,966 --> 00:35:19,233
so our bodies are like the car body

899
00:35:19,633 --> 00:35:20,866
and our minds are like

900
00:35:20,866 --> 00:35:23,233
the electronics that make everything work

901
00:35:23,533 --> 00:35:25,833
so if we can tune that up yearly

902
00:35:25,833 --> 00:35:27,033
whether it's through a

903
00:35:27,033 --> 00:35:31,500
just even connecting with a GP or a therapist

904
00:35:31,533 --> 00:35:33,200
you know for a few sessions a year

905
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,466
just to make sure that you're

906
00:35:34,466 --> 00:35:36,500
you're able to stay on the road

907
00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:41,833
and that goes a long way to your better health

908
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:42,933
but then also you

909
00:35:42,933 --> 00:35:44,333
being able to be more present

910
00:35:44,333 --> 00:35:45,700
and mindful with your kids

911
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:48,500
as well because if you're doing the work on you

912
00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:49,666
then you can see it in others

913
00:35:49,666 --> 00:35:52,166
and you can help others along their journeys too

914
00:35:52,633 --> 00:35:54,800
are there are there pitfalls or

915
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,900
or drawbacks that we should watch out for

916
00:35:57,900 --> 00:35:59,366
when trying to do this

917
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:00,633
well

918
00:36:00,633 --> 00:36:04,233
I think it's you can it's bringing up old traumas maybe

919
00:36:04,233 --> 00:36:07,766
yeah maybe old pains and having to work through them

920
00:36:07,866 --> 00:36:10,066
but that's okay that's part of the process

921
00:36:10,066 --> 00:36:13,466
it's it's not about ignoring the past

922
00:36:13,466 --> 00:36:15,400
is about acknowledging it and

923
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,000
and identifying what you can learn from the past

924
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,533
and this is where therapist go well

925
00:36:19,533 --> 00:36:20,800
you know tell me about your childhood

926
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,066
there's a reason for that

927
00:36:22,066 --> 00:36:24,433
because they're looking at what happened

928
00:36:24,433 --> 00:36:25,866
how were you formed

929
00:36:25,866 --> 00:36:28,100
where where did your beliefs come from

930
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:29,833
and then how do we retune them

931
00:36:29,833 --> 00:36:32,600
so that they serve you in 2025 and beyond

932
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,066
yeah and I can imagine that that is

933
00:36:36,066 --> 00:36:40,233
especially if you haven't grown up with the skills

934
00:36:40,466 --> 00:36:42,900
to deal with those kinds of strong emotions

935
00:36:43,666 --> 00:36:46,933
it's all the more difficult to

936
00:36:47,433 --> 00:36:49,166
to process all of that isn't it

937
00:36:49,666 --> 00:36:50,333
well that's right

938
00:36:50,333 --> 00:36:53,166
how can you get somewhere if you don't have a map yeah

939
00:36:54,833 --> 00:36:58,833
and this is it so this is therapy or a GP session

940
00:36:58,833 --> 00:37:00,500
or even just talking with a friend

941
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:03,733
or family member that you trust and respect yeah

942
00:37:03,733 --> 00:37:06,166
these are the people that can give you the map

943
00:37:07,066 --> 00:37:07,866
to get where you are

944
00:37:07,866 --> 00:37:11,900
and maybe give yourself a little bit of Grace about

945
00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:13,333
you know this everybody

946
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:16,066
everybody has this and it's good

947
00:37:16,066 --> 00:37:18,100
it's okay I'd say a lot of Grace

948
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:19,400
and what one of the concepts

949
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,366
that I've Learned through mindfulness is wabi sabi

950
00:37:23,033 --> 00:37:25,433
so it's the beauty in imperfection

951
00:37:27,533 --> 00:37:29,133
OK yeah

952
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,700
I love I'm not gonna get it perfect every day

953
00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:34,033
and my clients aren't gonna get it perfect every day

954
00:37:34,033 --> 00:37:36,266
but as long as they're learning and moving forward

955
00:37:36,266 --> 00:37:37,833
one step at a time

956
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:40,500
eventually they'll get to where they need to go

957
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:44,533
so how do people learn more about mindful men and

958
00:37:44,533 --> 00:37:46,600
and get involved and what can what

959
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,600
what can we do to to help bolster your program

960
00:37:51,733 --> 00:37:53,833
well I think it's about we've got the podcast

961
00:37:53,833 --> 00:37:56,300
as you mentioned earlier got the mindful men podcast

962
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,100
um I did that for about two and a half years before I

963
00:37:59,100 --> 00:37:59,666
mindfully

964
00:37:59,666 --> 00:38:01,600
had to disconnect from that for a little while

965
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,100
so I'm on a bit of a hiatus

966
00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:04,566
but there's lots of different

967
00:38:04,666 --> 00:38:08,200
conversations in there around men masculinity

968
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,133
fatherhood mental health as well

969
00:38:10,133 --> 00:38:13,600
so check that out check out your podcast

970
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,166
go through some of the old episodes as well

971
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,533
keep in tune with those um

972
00:38:18,633 --> 00:38:21,933
if you're in Australia we do therapy in Australia

973
00:38:21,933 --> 00:38:23,533
so I'm an Australian therapist

974
00:38:23,533 --> 00:38:25,400
um so you can connect in that

975
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,400
with us that way through our website

976
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,133
um check out our socials

977
00:38:29,133 --> 00:38:31,533
I'm very active on socials and just putting out content

978
00:38:31,533 --> 00:38:34,933
trying to inspire men to just recognise

979
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:36,533
certain things in their lives

980
00:38:36,533 --> 00:38:38,400
so for example um

981
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,000
October in Australia is

982
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,600
is Mental Health Awareness Month in Australia

983
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,433
so I'm doing a lot of mental health awareness

984
00:38:44,433 --> 00:38:47,000
content on there so get involved in that

985
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,233
have a chat in that and also

986
00:38:48,233 --> 00:38:50,733
you can join our Mindful Men Community Facebook group

987
00:38:50,733 --> 00:38:53,400
which is for free I do a weekly uh

988
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,700
mindfulness tip on a Tuesday

989
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:57,900
and then I do a Thursday check in video

990
00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:00,133
so you can jump onto that um

991
00:39:00,133 --> 00:39:01,733
learn a bit more about mindfulness

992
00:39:01,733 --> 00:39:04,566
and become part of a bigger community

993
00:39:04,733 --> 00:39:06,400
I love that alright

994
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,600
I love to finish up these conversations

995
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,033
by putting you on the spot

996
00:39:10,533 --> 00:39:12,666
and asking for one principle

997
00:39:12,666 --> 00:39:13,100
I'd like

998
00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:15,500
just think of one principle that comes to mind

999
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:15,800
that

1000
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,533
I should adopt in my life to make myself more mindful

1001
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:23,433
or stronger or better or

1002
00:39:23,433 --> 00:39:26,200
or or anything at all give me one principle

1003
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,733
might be something that

1004
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:31,533
that you try to live yourself or

1005
00:39:31,533 --> 00:39:34,066
or something you aspire to or anything like that

1006
00:39:34,066 --> 00:39:35,533
what is one principle

1007
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,500
that you think that people should really look into

1008
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:40,566
and maybe adopt

1009
00:39:41,433 --> 00:39:43,500
I think for men particularly

1010
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:47,200
it's it's identifying what your core values are

1011
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,700
and living by them

1012
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,900
once you know this and there's you

1013
00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:55,100
you only want five or six not too many

1014
00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:57,000
I've got a few guys that like 10+

1015
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:57,633
but sure

1016
00:39:57,633 --> 00:40:01,566
five or six core values that you can live by everyday

1017
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:04,500
cause this helps with things like motivation

1018
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:05,933
when you're feeling unmotivated

1019
00:40:05,933 --> 00:40:07,333
it helps with reflection

1020
00:40:07,333 --> 00:40:09,066
if something bad's happened and you

1021
00:40:09,066 --> 00:40:11,300
and you wanna reflect why that happened

1022
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:12,133
it helps with us

1023
00:40:12,133 --> 00:40:14,666
identifying why we feel certain emotions

1024
00:40:14,666 --> 00:40:15,566
as well

1025
00:40:15,833 --> 00:40:18,833
but it's also helps us to be the best parents and

1026
00:40:18,833 --> 00:40:20,100
and partners we can be

1027
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:22,400
and instill values on our children

1028
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,533
now everybody's values are different

1029
00:40:24,533 --> 00:40:26,733
and it's also about recognizing that as well

1030
00:40:26,733 --> 00:40:27,433
so what we

1031
00:40:27,433 --> 00:40:30,000
I value is gonna be different to what you value

1032
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,633
and the same with our kids

1033
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,266
so really look into what are your values

1034
00:40:34,266 --> 00:40:36,233
and how can you live by them everyday

1035
00:40:36,433 --> 00:40:38,600
I think that is a fantastic principle

1036
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,933
I appreciate thank you for sharing that Simon

1037
00:40:41,233 --> 00:40:41,833
once again

1038
00:40:41,833 --> 00:40:45,033
thank you so much for joining us on Raising Men

1039
00:40:45,033 --> 00:40:45,466
I'll tell you

1040
00:40:45,466 --> 00:40:48,533
it has been an absolute pleasure to get to know you

1041
00:40:48,533 --> 00:40:50,133
I know that I have personally

1042
00:40:50,133 --> 00:40:52,533
gotten tremendous value from this conversation

1043
00:40:52,533 --> 00:40:54,733
I hope our listeners have as well

1044
00:40:54,733 --> 00:40:57,233
I really appreciate it thanks Sean

1045
00:40:57,233 --> 00:40:58,800
thanks for having me thanks again

1046
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,333
Simon is the founder and clinical lead at Mindful Men

1047
00:41:01,333 --> 00:41:03,666
he joins us from the Sunshine Coast

1048
00:41:03,666 --> 00:41:05,600
just north of Brisbane in Australia

1049
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:06,600
thanks again Simon