Hi, I'm Kevin
Devine and this is the Prosource podcast.
In each episode, we'll be talking to industry experts,
including trade professionals, suppliers and our showroom staff,
about a variety of topics within home and commercial projects.
Enjoy.
Well, welcome again to the Prosource podcast.
In this edition, we're joined by Kevin Jones of Premier Homes.
Kevin, thanks for joining us. Glad to be here.
This is everyone's dream come true.
Two Kevin's on one podcast.
I'm not sure that's the case, but we'll give them a best shot.
Dream, Nightmare.
You know, it's all terminology.
So let's start with this.
Let's talk a little bit about tell us about yourself and about Premier Homes.
Premier Homes we’re a small custom homebuilder in the Metro East .
We don't build in volume particularly, but more of the higher end custom homes.
So take an individual from
with no plan and lead them through the entire design process.
Or sometimes
someone may
approach us with their own plans and then we will execute that for them.
Okay. And by Metro East, we should probably qualify.
We're talking Saint Louis, Missouri,
because for all I know, we have a global audience
and they make sure that everyone on all hemispheres understand.
For us,
the Metro East is just the Illinois side across the river from Saint Louis.
So and I'm primarily in Edwardsville community on the on the east side.
Okay, So today's topic is all about cabinets across the home.
And so we're talking about of it's not just for the kitchen and we're talking
about some of the different storage and organization features of it.
What are some of the most common reasons why homeowners are replacing
cabinets in the home?
And when that happens, what advice do you tend to offer them?
Well, I think it's really mainly two reasons to either
upgrade what they have currently or update what they have.
So I do some remodeling.
I do more new construction,
but the remodeling I tend to do is more of the larger scale.
So a complete kitchen, sometimes an entire gut of a house, that type of thing.
So I would say we're seeing some of the people
that are particularly in that environment are in now.
Our interest rates have kind of jumped up on us pretty quickly.
You've got people that may have been interested
in purchasing a new home or moving to another home of some type.
Interest rates have kind of trapped some of those people
because of the low mortgage rates that they have in hand,
as opposed to going out and assuming that higher interest rates.
So they are more likely to try to take the existing home
and update or upgrade that people that would have normally upgraded.
They've been in the home for a few years, a starter home possibly.
And now that they're able to maybe take those builder grade cabinets
and that type of thing and upgrade
to something a little nicer, a little nicer countertops and kind of
just update and upgrade the entire home that way.
So this may actually be a question on my list, but I'm going to go in address
and just being fair to you, you are a builder and custom home builder.
So you're right, there's not a whole lot of remodeling.
There is some, but not a lot in your world.
We talk, we use that term builder great cabinets.
But really what we're talking there is sort of like the maybe the entry level.
But I would assume that within the selection that you offer,
you're already offering some some upgrades within that you're
looking at that whole scope for the multiple design concepts
that people may have, The the homes that we build and that
and the remodeling we do is still typically an upper end
and no type of cabinet that we're putting in those homes.
So I might have used the wrong terminology in terms of builder grade.
It's usually a term people are used to use in our industry,
you know, quite a bit and probably too often.
But again, it's like you said, an entry level home where it's more affordable.
It fits their budget at the time,
but now they've been in the home ten, 15, 20 years.
They're obviously in a better
financial position, hopefully, and they're able to take
some of that money and reinvest in their home.
I do think sometimes it gets sort of a negative connotation
when people say builder, great,
but that's covering a big spectrum because there's a lot of different builders
that are out there.
And I say that, yeah,
we hear it all the time and talking to customers
and you know, obviously we compete with other builders
and there's just so much difference in how each of us approach it
and the type of materials and workmanship and quality that goes into a home.
So it can vary across a pretty wide spectrum, of course, right?
When we're looking at the choices of cabinets that people make,
do trends impact those cabinet choices, either in both what you offer
and what people select?
So we're talking style, color, wood type is
are people being driven more toward trends
when they pick the chemistry offer, or is it just simply personal choice?
Yes and yes.
Okay.
Because trends are going to generate activity or interest.
And I think that may draw people into the thought process of
whether they want to do a remodel or change their cabinets or update
their kitchen.
But still, it's got
I think there's an override factor for the personal choice
and personal likes and dislikes, whether that's, you know,
just colors or style or whatever it may be.
But I certainly encourage people not to get caught up in just the trends.
But it's kind of like we're going to a new car.
You know, you're driving a car for four or five years
and you see the new ones with all the nice
bells and whistles, you know, gets the juices flowing.
You start thinking about, you know, you can upgrade yours as well.
So it's kind of the same thing, I think.
Take it outside of the kitchen.
Yeah.
Everyone always thinks when we think cabinets, we think kitchen cabinets,
but cabinets are significantly more versatile
that there probably isn't a room in the house that they can't go into.
So when you're building the homes, designing the homes,
how often are homeowners looking to add cabinets in rooms outside of the kitchen
and if so, what rooms tend to be next on the list?
When you look outside the kitchen, I think it comes down to budget, first of all.
So what can they afford to do?
What needs to be done the most?
So kitchens are pretty typical. Right?
Next in line is probably the bathrooms, you know.
So and that's not a huge undertaking in terms
of just the cabinet side of things, as long as they're not changing,
you know, the layout, so forth.
But that's probably next on the list.
I would say, you know, laundries are an easy one.
Obviously, mud rooms, that's people are like the locker concept
that still hasn't gone away.
That's still pretty attractive to most people.
So we're finding places or niches where we can build
in some additional storage for things like that.
And then there's always built ins.
And most of that we see in the great room or living room concept where they're
trying to create some additional storage of some type in the in the great room.
So those are usually the areas we see at most.
Let's take it a little bit further.
Are there other creative places that you find?
Sometimes homeowners begin to lots of give a couple of examples.
Kids rooms would obviously come to mind,
but maybe also a little bit just outside the walls, in the garages.
Are you starting to see cabinets?
Does that come up into the discussion?
Not as much, but yes, occasionally again,
it comes down to budget, but particularly on a remodel anyway.
But we don't see it as much in garages, although most people will
will go to the shelving or out or something like that in the garages.
But kids rooms possibly, you know, a little study area
desk area storage area for books and that type of thing.
That's we've we've done some of that.
Probably one of the more things that we haven't done a lot in the past,
but it's come up more recently Butler's pantry, which is kind
of a nice idea and it makes a lot of sense if you got the room for it
and if you have a butler, well, most of them don't,
but I guess that's a terminology that's got stuck with it.
Yeah, that so but around for a while. Yeah.
And that's probably more a
new construction again but still it's, it's a concept that people like
and I think it's driven a lot by the open concept
which hasn't gone away
and I don't really see that changing maybe a little bit, but
it's still a pretty popular floor plan.
So in the open concept, you just usually don't
have as much wall space for cabinet storage alone.
So we usually go with a big pantry to kind of compensate for that.
Butler's pantry is a nice area where they can display, maybe hide
some of their larger appliance type things, countertop appliance type things
that they can get out of the way and create more room in the kitchen itself.
Are there specific specific storage features
when it comes to cabinets that homeowners are wanting more outside it?
Just open the door.
There's some shelves, we're talking pull out drawers or even maybe more
fancy options.
And we did talk about the butler's pantry.
But are other storage features that you're finding
homeowners are starting to look towards, especially setting aside the budget.
But just from a creative standpoint that they're saying, hey, I'd like this.
There seems to be a greater use of things that we didn't have before, possibly
least in my timeframe.
I go back a little farther, but
not that far behind you on that.
So, well, you've got the air fryers and those can be large
and people are using toaster ovens.
I mean, there's a lot of convenience type
things that are utilized now in the kitchen that maybe weren't used
as much in the past, which creates a need for larger storage.
So which again, is where the Butler Pantry really comes in. Nice.
But not everybody can do that or have the space for it.
I think just organizational features as much as anything.
So pots and pans, you know, they're bigger, they're heavier.
So it takes a little more storage
thought in terms of how you're going to accommodate that.
So utensils, the spice racks and things like that.
There's just like a lot of maybe K-Cup drawers with other single serve curing.
Absolutely.
Once again, that's another item that people are trying to hide.
But a good, good mention that I didn't bring up earlier is, you know, we do some
coffee centers, you know, where they have those an entire coffee center.
yeah, yeah, yeah.
A regular barista station.
So what? Okay.
Starbucks in the home, they you know, they definitely it's a popular item.
So if you could again make room for it and it's something that that's out there.
If you looked outside of the kitchen, are there any type of little storage or
organization features that start to pop out in other rooms?
I would say probably again, the built ins in a great room.
And that's that's really kind of depending on the individual what their needs are.
Some people want the cabinets for the door
so they can hide the electronic components or that type of thing.
Other people may need space for display, so whether it's bookshelves
or floating shelves to display pictures or artwork or that type of thing.
So that's probably what we see outside of the kitchen or bathrooms
anyway, where we're seeing a little more unique closets.
It's it's been done somewhat in the closet,
which I think is a good idea
because we can take some of the cabinet storage and create the drawer space
that can be utilized in the closets as well
and look a little nicer than some of the other options.
So this may just fit in with everything you've just said, but are there
creative ways to cabinets have been incorporated into just the general design,
not just of that room, but maybe the house as a whole?
I think
cabinets always influence the design of the house
to some extent because it's it's a very prevalent feature of the home.
And again, in that open concept, it's visible from all the living areas
of the home where your guests will be.
So we see oftentimes trying to carry at least the the style of someone.
If we're doing a more simpler home, we call it transition and tell you
a little bit more of a modern look, I guess to it, cleaner lines and so forth.
We that kind of influences, or maybe it's in reverse,
but that style carries throughout the house colors as well.
So if you've got stained cabinets in the kitchen, oftentimes, obviously
they have to complement the floors, but we may carry that stain
over to the staircase or over to the mantel on the fireplace.
So yeah, I think it all has to tie together.
It's kind of a chicken and the egg thing
which influences which, but it obviously plays a part.
We talked a little bit about Cabinets in the bathroom,
so let's move there for a second.
How are we seeing cabinets being implemented in bathrooms?
And I'd also like to look at what are considerations
as far as chemistry when it comes to the vanity
as opposed to just taking it out of the box from the big box stores,
vanity versus something a little more furniture, ask a little more custom,
even with cabinets being used, they're you're a little more limited.
Obviously, in the bathroom.
You don't have a lot of space typically,
but people will get a little more creative, I would say.
And like the powder room again,
because that's a guest area that the guest is going to see.
So a little nicer space there probably, but we'll see furniture
bases not directly related to cabinets, but we know a lot of accidental
lighting or toxic lighting that may be generated by motion.
So when
you're up in the middle of the night and you walk in the bathroom,
the motion sensor will kick all into the light.
So you can see your way around the bathroom.
So, you know, you're just showing off.
You know, I don't have that. Well, you should at it.
I'm thinking so you can do that for you for a see there.
Phenomenal.
But you had me going to do that part.
But yeah, things like that.
But I think it's making some of the cannons
supposedly out of the box in the vanities and so forth.
Maybe a little more style created if you can,
but again, you're somewhat limited to what you can do.
But and I'm probably the wrong person to ask,
you got people out there and some ladies that we've worked with
that are pretty creative and have some great ideas too.
So they're awfully helpful when it comes to that. At the press.
Our showroom. Absolutely. There you go. Plug that show.
Plug it. Quiet built ins.
We had mentioned the term earlier.
So let's just go ahead and start talking about those.
They have a little bit of an
evergreen appeal for both storage and display purposes.
How do you approach creating that esthetic from when you're doing built ins versus
something else?
Again, I think it kind of comes down to what
what's their objective with the built ins and what they want to do with it
oftentimes will work for the architect as well to try to create that look.
Probably the most helpful thing for me as a builder is
when I meet with people and they say they have an idea what they want,
but they can't really explain it very well.
Is Pinterest and House
and all of the things that are available out there for people today.
Just show me pictures.
Give me an idea
what you like or don't like about this, or we can try to incorporate,
you know,
your your vision or your wish list for that item and try to build
that into the process itself.
So that's probably the most helpful thing we can do with the people as they can
show us what they really like.
So let's just touch on that
because I was thinking this also, my head cabinets have advanced so much.
We talked about a little bit of the automation aspect of things
and some of the unique storage features that they have.
Sometimes people they don't know, what they don't know.
They may not realize all the options that are available to them,
and they haven't thought, Wow, think of what
I could have now in my kitchen or in my living room or in my kids room
because of these features that are available.
How do you go through just setting it up for them
of what all the different options are and the things that they should consider?
Is there like a questionnaire process you go through or is?
I'm not that sophisticated, unfortunately, but I think it just comes out to
the conversation.
You know, some people are cooks, chefs.
They're you know, the kitchen means something different to them than it might
someone else.
We have people that want a lovely kitchen, but they just want it to look good
because they generally
don't use it that much, but cracks me up in and of itself.
Okay, But but I know that happens.
Definitely happens.
So you kind of got to understand from them, you know,
how are you going to use a kitchen?
What do you really need from the space itself?
And again,
I'll defer to
your experts here at Prosource, but they get to the bottom of that
better than I can because they're true designers.
But I think trying to get through
some of the underbrush and so forth with your client
before you send them down here, then you kind of steer it a little bit
because it can be overwhelming when they come into a place like this
that has a lot of bells and whistles and trinkets, things to look at.
It's
you want to have a little bit more focus and get them on the right track
so they don't get lost in the shuffle a little bit.
So when it comes to cabinets, what are some of the tips
you offer for preserving and maintaining them?
So they last the qualities they are, but it does require a little bit of work
sometimes, too, that people probably don't think about.
If you buy a good quality cabinet, it'll take good care of itself
and if you obviously install it correctly, it's a big part of it as well.
But from there it just basically to me cleaning
because you'll be surprised and you'll happen in my house as well.
But you'd be surprised how, how much dirt can accumulate
in a kitchen and on a kitchen cabinet which will, you know,
have a pretty negative effect on the effect on the finish at some point.
And you think that big fancy range,
it is going to take care of all your grease and it does not.
It will get throughout the house.
So I think a good basic
cleaning is a big part of just maintaining the look of them anyway, the soft closed
door doors and doors that are, you know, pretty prevalent now or I think eliminate
some of that hidden stress and some of the damage created by door
slamming when they weren't supposed to or didn't mean to. That helps.
And just the construction itself you know much better
hinges are made today a little heavier and they will last longer.
The draw glides and so forth are much better than what we used to have.
So those types of things, it's taken out some of the risk we've had
with those maintenance and care issues
because they're just built better and better options than we used to have.
Cleaning is probably the biggest aspect of just maintaining that that a customer
can really do on their own.
I've tried to look for the grease colored cabinets so I don't have to,
but yes, they probably have probably said that they do
so that actually brought up and thought to me
with all these advancements that have happened with cabinets,
how do you stay on top of it all so that you can better advise clients on
on considerations, whether it comes from the choices
that they make all the way through to the cleaning and maintaining of,
you know,
there's always industry publications and whether there's the builder show
or something like that, we as builders have access to that keeps
you kind of aware of the trends and, you know,
improvements and types of things like that that are out there.
But again, I mean,
just as it is available to our customers, the things like a Pinterest or house
and those types of things
where you can see what other people are doing,
I think the visuals are
just as important to me as they are for our customers
in terms of, you know, seeing things that work
and what else is out there and that type of thing.
And then of course, your manufacturers are out
keeping you abreast and aware of what's new and what's out there as well
as, you know, our consultants here prosource keep us pretty well clued in to.
So a variety of ways. I think we can stay in touch.
Probably the most popular choice of cabinets that people put in their homes
are the White shaker cabinets, traditional clean, evergreen forever.
But maybe.
Or are you starting to see maybe people are sort of turning away from
that because they do want a unique look to their kitchen?
Lisa Maybe not unique, but at least not that everything changes
over a period of time.
You know, right now we're now we're very clean lines, you know,
a little more that's a little more attractive
to more people, I think, at this point than it used to be.
Cabinets, you know, used to be the more crown
molding and corbels and glazing and those types of things that was in.
And that's what everybody wanted.
And that's that changes over a period of time.
Now, like I said, it's more clean.
The white has come back strong.
It's been around for quite a while.
Shaker is still popular, I think, and will be always be an option anyway.
But I think you are starting to see some people
come back into more of the woods and stains and that type of thing
and mixing it.
You know, we'll have somebody that may do a stained island
and then painted perimeter and it could be white or another color
even, or stain bases with painted uppers or that type of thing.
So you can mix and match more of an accepted style,
I think an attractive style right now that it's kind of moved in that direction
a little bit.
I think as a builder, what let's look into your crystal ball.
What's on the horizon with cabinets, especially new homes,
whether it's this year or even maybe a few years down the line.
Do you see something that's trending for maybe the next year or so,
but you also see something on the horizon that could be coming down
or at least being more popular?
You know, I I'm an old builder, so I'm probably not mature.
We don't use old well,
more old than I am mature.
I don't know if I'm the right guy to answer that,
but some of the things I just mentioned I think are what I see now.
That's maybe fairly early in the trend, but colors, I see more colors, you know,
coming in.
So just to add a little interest, again, I would encourage or discourage people
from just chasing a trend, but let the trend influence
some of their personal choices a little bit.
But I think color the stain we talked about is a big item.
But in terms of, you know, cabinet structure and that type of thing,
I don't think that changes a whole lot, you know, the basics anyway.
But I think probably the the mix, the stains and some colors being used here
and there are probably something we're going to see
moved a little more to the forefront than what we've seen in the past.
Kevin, we appreciate you joining us here today and giving us your thoughts.
Glad to be here.
Appreciate it.
Thanks. Thanks.
So now we're going to switch gears a bit
and I'm joined by Stephanie Pearce from best Friend.
Stephanie, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much for having me.
So let's start with the simple ones.
Could you tell us a little bit about yourself?
You know, basic stuff, you know, bank account number,
Social Security number, those sorts of things.
Sure.
All the details that I love to share regularly.
Exactly.
Thank you guys for asking me to sit in on this with you today.
I'm really looking forward to being able to share insights around trends.
That is one of my primary roles for Mastering Cabinets.
I've been with the organization for 23 years.
Primarily, as I mentioned, trend analysis is a huge part
of what we do there that helps lead us for better solutions
for our customers, but also, you know, from a product development perspective.
And then just generally to be able to communicate and educate changes
that are happening in our industry with our customers and consumers alike.
So thrilled to be able to sit here today
and talk with you about some of the exciting things
that we think are happening in our industry.
That's great.
I don't know, talking to me, I don't know how much the thrilled level
will stay high for you, but let's go with it for right now.
Start.
But if you take this outside of the industry,
not a lot of people know the name Master Brand.
So what are some of the brands that fall underneath your umbrella
that may be a little more recognizable to people?
Yeah, of course.
So Master Brand is our umbrella company where we have multiple brands underneath
that umbrella that offer solutions, anything from same day takeaway
kind of cash and carry DIY solutions all the way to fully
premium customized solutions.
So some of the more probably more likely
no names would be in our mass market brands,
which would be like a Schrock or Diamond or Kemper.
Those Cabinet brands offer solutions anywhere from value.
Semi-Custom and semi-custom is just a way of saying that you can
modify and make to order your kitchen solution
and all the way up to some enhanced semi-custom solution.
So being able to get additional features like size,
height, width, depth, size modifications and custom color.
So those are names that are commonly known through the broader industry.
But then we we specialize on both ends of that spectrum going from the core out.
So Omega is one of our premium brands that has a lot of recognition
associated with it, and that's a fully customized solution.
Essentially, if you can dream it and it's safe for us to build it,
we will produce it.
Additionally, on sort of the in-stock side of our business,
Aristocrat is a really well known name, provides stock solutions,
meaning there isn't a lot of customization,
but it's pretty standard and it's got enough breadth to fill
the majority of what mass consumers are looking for.
We also have another brand that we've just launched in the last couple of years,
which would be mantra, which offers a quick turn solution.
Similarly, not a lot of customization, but you can get the cabinets really fast.
So what's really unique about the massive brand portfolio is that we offer
solutions depending on what the need is pretty much across the board.
So you work a lot with on the professional side of things,
do you take their input a lot into consideration
when you're developing new cabinets or do they even have an influence?
What you say, because they're out there in the field
working with these all the time? Absolutely.
I mean, roughly 70% of our sales go through trade professionals.
And so it's very important to understand what their needs are,
both from a product perspective, but also a service perspective.
We poll and talk to our customers on a regular basis.
Our trends presentation that we put together is based off
of a survey that is completely inputted by trade professionals.
So there's a lot of different touch points
that will reach out to them throughout the year
to give us that insight and feedback.
And it directly translates to the solutions that we bring to market
there.
Yeah, then so let's take the kitchen out of the equation.
We own it. All cabinets go in the kitchen.
That's just a given. But
what rooms are you finding on your site to be the most popular for cabinets?
It's subtracting that one from the equation.
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's it's interesting how the consumer preferences around design
and esthetic and how they get that inspiration has shifted over the last
I mean I'll call it the last decade, but it's really taken a different turn
since the pandemic.
And so there's a lot more education and online visibility that consumers
have to be inspired by the products that they want to put into their homes.
So going beyond the kitchen rooms that have really become focal points
for being able to drive creative esthetic
are things like craft rooms and or laundry.
Oftentimes those two things get combined.
So laundry is a is another big opportunity
for us to integrate cabinetry solutions and then naturally bath.
So both Master Bath and half Bath and then home offices is another unique one.
So there's a lot of variation in how solutions are built
for people to be able to accommodate remote working or hybrid working.
And so we're still seeing a lot of evolution in that trend.
So a lot more to come in that space.
Yes. Just
because you mentioned the Home Office, did you see a significant
spike in that room during the pandemic as everyone's forced to work from home,
wanting to make it a nicer environment, to work from home?
I think immediately in the pandemic, not not as much,
because I think there was a lot of uncertainty
as to how long is this going to last and what kind of solutions
I know I had people in my organization who were working off the card tables
for a really long time when remote working first kicked off
because there was just a lot of uncertainty
at how long it was going to last and what the evolution was going to be.
But I think it's that environment is a lot more stable now
and so people have solutions around, you know,
to what degree are they going to be remote or hybrid
or what their work environment needs to be to facilitate their long term needs.
So I think you're probably
seeing more of that evolution happening in the last two years,
maybe in the last year, and certainly continuing into the next couple of years.
It's funny how we talk about the pandemic as if it was just yesterday.
It was actually started four years ago when it really occurred,
but it's still so fresh in our minds because the after effects
and may I state for the record, I did not work from the card table.
I upgraded to the dining room table.
There you go.
I did my part before I finally upgraded my home office,
so we touched on it here.
But let's continue that conversation.
How has cabinet placement throughout the home really evolved
over the years and has Master Brand had to evolve
your focus, sort of shift your focus to match that along the way?
Absolutely.
I mean, as part of being a solution provider
for the home, we have to stay really closely in tune
and in touch with consumers and their needs.
And so one of the biggest factors that drives
innovation and product development, aside from being in touch with our trade
professionals, is really understanding shifts for the consumer
and where they're putting prioritization for solutions for their home.
So lots of things continue to evolve.
Some of the most recent shifts, I would say,
revolve around the evolution of the kitchen island.
Again, you can look at the last decade of data
and really see how that has changed from do you need an island?
Do you not need an island to how big of an island to
what are the different types of solutions
that people are needing their island to provide for them?
It's funny how you said you you upgraded from your card table to your dining table,
but a lot of people upgraded from,
you know, a temporary solution to their kitchen island.
I'm often on calls with people like, I'm just working for my kitchen island.
And that's just,
you know, it's an adaptable space that has to provide multiple functions.
And in our survey just this last year, 82% of designers
were telling us that they agree or somewhat agree that the kitchen island
has replaced the majority
of dining solutions within the home, or at least formal dining solutions.
So that's a huge functional evolution that you absolutely have to provide
product solutions in order to overcome those challenges.
82% that that's a little high.
So, wow. You know, but it's not unexpected.
I mean, one of the areas where we get a lot of insights into how
our industry could potentially be evolving is furniture market.
And it hasn't been that long ago.
I won't say exactly how long, but it hasn't been that long ago
that I was walking furniture market and was introduced
as a cabinet manufacturer, just chatting up some other
design professionals and they jokingly said,
I guess you guys are the reason that we selling less dining solutions.
So it's not unique to our industry to have this knowledge.
I think even furniture manufacturers feel this shift in this change.
Okay, then.
So infamous famous going to be probably around forever white shaker cabinets.
They're still out there.
But what has made them so popular, I mean, and even if it's the popularity
per say is waning a little bit.
But what just cause those to be the timeless look?
I mean, most designers you talk to are would hope that exactly what you said
doesn't happen.
Like we do not want white Shaker to continue forever.
Certainly it came about after after the Great Recession
when when home values were top of mind for most homeowners
and the need for something that was neutral and resale able
to the mass market created a lot of appeal for those solutions.
It also was an esthetic choice or a design evolution that just naturally
was going to occur in our industry, where people were looking for
more of a blank canvas
in order to build their design esthetic on top of that canvas.
And it certainly started out that way.
It was very trendy early on to create sort of that neutral, blank esthetic
and then build your design influence on top of that.
So essentially that white canvas, so to speak.
But what happens when you overplay a design trend,
which naturally is what we've seen with White Sugar, because it's
been over a decade that it has remained popular, is that not
everybody was using it to its original intent and it becomes
oversaturated and eventually it just looks sterile and bland.
And so a lot of times when people look at it today now don't get me wrong,
white sugar is classic.
It's never going to go out of style.
There's always going to be people
who are using it to create beautiful design solutions.
But there's also a lot of people who are just using it as essentially just creating
a blank canvas with no personality and no real design influence.
And that's what I think you're starting to see what really wane in popularity.
And that is also giving way to a lot of different solutions.
So personality
and personal influence in design solutions is really starting to shift.
And minimalism and contemporary esthetic.
That real, streamlined, clean, sterile look is starting to become way
less popular, which is great news, but I don't think we're going to be,
at least not for a while, in a state where we say, white Shaker is so out,
I would love to be able to.
I can't wait till the day or like the headlines read that white shaker is out.
But it's it's become a tool in designers toolbox
that when when it fits the right need it is the right thing to do.
But I think what's really nice is that we're starting to see that
it isn't necessarily the only or the go to solution.
The palette has really broadened into off whites or even tropes and beiges
to help create that same example of a neutral esthetic.
But people are exploring alternatives to the shaker.
There's the thin line shaker,
the skinny rail shaker, the one with the really narrow exterior.
There's also different door styles that have a really clean esthetic,
but offer you a little bit of beating or detailing on the inside of the rail.
Those things go a really long way to creating additional personality
within the space without being overly sterile or overly clean.
No, All I could think of as you were talking about it with the
hope that it happens someday, but with all designers, I gather in Times
Square, just like New Year's Eve, it does offer one
big celebration as the shaker door drops instead of the ball.
I can't even tell you how many times I've talked to designers
and they've said if I have to design one more white sheet for kitchen
and then I can almost assure you the next customer in the door
wanted a white shaker.
I say, Yeah, they set that one up beautifully.
It's it's it's tough, but there is a horizon that has some hope on it.
Okay.
Well, now I'm worried that we might be repeating ourselves,
but I'll ask my question anyway, because it was next on the list.
But just because of what you said, when you get beyond beyond white
or even wood stained cabinets, are there any specific colors
that are gaining momentum out there?
And how bold are people maybe going with that?
Absolutely.
So we definitely asked this question of our designers
this past year and what they came back and told us
is that 31% of designers would agree that Green is absolutely having a moment.
In 2024, 18% of designers still think it's blue.
So those are the top three would dramatically dropped off after that.
And it really went into like beige and off white.
Black and even gray is still kind of at the bottom of that list.
Again, Gray is certainly not the predominant color anymore, but
it's never going to truly go fully away because when you need that color,
you need that color.
And it's a pretty well a staple in the toolbox now as well.
But knowing that both designers and consumers are more open and welcoming
to other colors, you know, blue really hit the scene hard in 2017.
I know that seems like forever ago, but it has been around and popular
for that long.
But it's evolved over that time.
And I would say there's at least six blues
that are wildly popular at this point in time or a range, right?
Sometimes color can be very personal and people will choose nuances
of those colors.
But it's it's roughly evolved into, you know, there's
a palette of six that you see continuously over and over again.
Green is early days.
Green is really two colors that you see over and over again.
But every trend insight we have points to the fact that Green has the potential
to evolve very similarly to blue and that we could end up with,
you know, 4 to 6 greens really sitting solidly in that palette.
I'm old enough that I can remember a day when everybody had a green,
a blue, a red, a yellow, like you needed something.
And every one of those ranges, but one was good enough and consumers
lucky charms of of cabinets exactly every color
and it was pretty consistent in the industry as well.
I mean there is a little bit of nuance but it was a mid tone green
It was a dark blue.
But what's interesting about today's consumer is that they're not
they're not satisfied with the limitation of those types of choices,
and they really need a broader breadth of choice
in order to get to those personalized solutions.
So color is is going to continue to evolve.
And it's really it's one of the most exciting areas of the kitchen
and bath industry is is really seeing that evolution take place
and and trying to create the right solutions for consumers.
So now I'm not going to let you off the hook
because I'm only ask two questions here.
One, okay, don't leave me hanging here.
You said there were two tones really of green that that
are kind of the popular ones right now.
So what are those? And second is
whether it's green, whether it's blue,
do you find those more confined to the kitchen or the bathroom,
or are you finding those throughout the home as well?
You're definitely finding them throughout the home.
I'll answer your first your second question first.
You're fine with course getting keep your hang it.
Just look, I mean, if I can create suspense for your
for your podcast, you certainly will try.
Thank you.
So you definitely see color utilized in a lot of different areas of the home.
It's it's definitely easier I think, for most homeowners to make a
color selection outside of the kitchen because it tends to be a smaller impact
and therefore it feels like it's it's easier to change over time.
Most people are not going to want to renovate their kitchen
more than once in their lifetime unless they're moving to a different home.
They tend to be more conservative when they choose color for the kitchen.
But what we're seeing historically is that islands
are one of the best and easiest ways to integrate color.
Again, because it's in a contained smaller area.
And so it feels like if you ever did get tired of your selection
that you would be easier. It would be easy to update it.
So certainly things like bathrooms and laundry rooms
where you have fewer cabinets utilize it feels
whether it is or isn't, it feels easier to personalize those spaces
and then take on the
challenge of updating later if you decide that you want something different.
But I'll tell you what's interesting is, is that it's still our even
our data tells us that still people find it easiest
to integrate color in the kitchen via the island.
We're seeing quite a bit of momentum and growth of people
integrating color in the perimeter of their kitchen now as well.
Maybe not uppers and lowers, but potentially just
the lowers to get more impactful color utilization.
And I think a lot of the inspiration
that consumers find these days is showing that as well.
So it really is taking huge steps and building consumer confidence around color.
When designers describe the Greens to us, it is
kind of a it's generally described as a sage green.
Now there's still interpretation as to what Sage Green is,
but I would say it's a mid tone and I like to call these chameleon colors
because ultimately it needs to have some brown or gray undertone
so that they become very flexible and they sort of can work
with a lot of different other colors, whether you're looking
at other opaque neutrals like whites and off whites and beiges
or whether you're integrating those tones with would stay.
And so again, the neutrality of the opaque is important.
And oftentimes you get there by kind of dirtying up the boldness of the color.
So it becomes very flexible to work with a lot of different colors.
So sage certainly does provide you with that sort of solution.
Alternatively, we still see a lot of dark greens,
so there's certainly a movement towards Moody.
There's a lot of different ways that people are describing this, this esthetic.
It's not new.
It's been peeking its head out for a while.
There's a lot more influencers who are showing different ways
to create a darker, moodier esthetic
in your home, and it's still not feel sort of enclosed or removing that open
airiness that people really appreciate from the lighter finishes.
There is a way to achieve that particular.
If you have a lot of
natural light in your space and still utilize a lot of dark tones.
So those dark greens definitely provide really good solutions there.
Ultimately, I think we'll see light greens.
We do hear some conversation and see
some influence of a lighter, not quite a pastel,
but a lighter green, maybe with a little more yellow or olive undertone.
So I would say that's
kind of on the horizon for where greens are going to evolve next.
So if we break out of the color aspect.
SE But what has made wood cabinets so timeless in their approach,
we talked a little bit about Shaker that's maybe timeless for now,
but Wood Cabinets have just been timeless.
Yeah, and I think it's the nature of the kitchen and the relationship of a kitchen.
In a home, you tend to need neutrality in your kitchen cabinets to some degree
because it's such a large grounding visual in your overall home esthetic.
So naturally, you know, whites and off whites
and beiges provide you with that solution.
But wood tones do as well.
And what's interesting about the evolution of wood tone and as we're starting
to see stains kind of come back and grow in popularity,
the way I like to describe them is, is if you think about the forest floor
and you can think about the forest floor in any season, but
if you're walking through nature and you look at the forest floor,
you're going to get a little bit of gold influence, but you're going to get
a lot of sort of those nuttier browns, those more neutral brown bases.
You're going to see a lot of gray or gray influence.
You're going to see some like think overall bark or those natural elements.
I mean, it truly is.
It sounds cliche to continuously talk
about how nature influences our color choices, but
those natural elements, there's a reason that we are all drawn to them
and their esthetic is so calming because of colors mix really well together.
So if you think about this evolution of browns
as they come back there on the mid to light range,
we've certainly been through
the phase of gray stains, though even those gray stains have evolved
into gray brown stains, which make them kind of khaki or more neutral.
And so it just plays into that need for that kitchen palette
to be something that is grounding that a lot of other colors can play off.
Cabinet is cabinets are one solution that homeowners have to think about
when they're creating a new space or remodel or an existing space.
There's other big contenders there, right?
The flooring, the countertops, your wall color.
So all of these things have to play well together.
And so creating neutrality on cabinets and flooring
is probably a higher priority than is on things that could change out a lot faster.
Like what color or countertop
so. I think that's a big reason
why we're starting to see some of this evolution
and why people believe that wood stains are so classic
because they just complement other primary finishes within the home space,
whether it's the kitchen or any other room for that matter.
How might the door style impact the design there?
You know,
there's a lot of opinions there around how much impact the door style has.
Certainly in the past, we've seen trends where we have a lot of differentiation
and or styles, a lot of personal decision around
how that esthetic can influence your overall design impression of a space.
A lot of that historical insight around how people utilize different door styles
has been gone for so long that I don't even know that it's that relevant
to talk about anymore because as we're starting to see
fingers crossed move out of the era of just the shaker door, as I alluded
to, your early set up again, I know if you put it out in the universe
enough, eventually it's going to latch on and you're going to see a shift.
So I'm just doing my part.
But the evolution of door style preference is still something clean.
Generally speaking, it's a clean esthetic, but I think the key is that it doesn't
drive a single style influence.
It really has to be flexible that you could adopt multiple style influences.
And what I mean by
that is the thing about Shaker is you could dress that traditionally,
you could dress that rustic, you could dress that modern.
It can create balance
when you're trying to create or drive a specific style esthetic.
Most of the evolution of what we're seeing and other door profiles
have similar appeal.
They're neutral enough that they do create
a little bit of enhanced detail or definition, but they're not so style
specific or so style driven that you still don't have the ability
to dress them up, dress them down, dress them sideways, depending on where
you want to drive your overall design impression when the space is completed.
So it's sort of the evolution of the shaker
and it's such a it's such a unique thing to watch because
now because Shaker has become so substantial, I often hear people
describe just about any other door style that's gaining in popularity
right now as a version of Shaker, when really they're not.
Shaker is a specific type of style and construction, and the evolution of
that is really creating new styles of door profiles that we've never seen before.
But they all have a similar feel,
and I think that's why people easily classify them as versions of Shaker,
because they all have the same intent, all of the intent of some small impression
of design enhancement, but not an overall influence
for the for the total package, meaning you've got that flexibility still.
Okay, look in your crystal ball or just to the paperwork
that you have in front of you.
But what can we expect from spring
and not just in 2024, but maybe even a little bit beyond that?
Is there any sort of unveils that you can sort of tease for us here?
Sure, of course. I mean, that's what we're doing today, right?
We're just teasing with different things.
I like the enticement here.
I think the first one is really about innovation around technology.
You know, I've kind of mentioned it a little bit already, but
products are just a part of the value proposition of what we bring to market
for our customers, consumers alike, and continuously looking at
how we can improve the service package with technology about making it easy for
both our customers and the
end user to do business with us quite easily and efficiently.
And a lot of this is driven by changing or evolving consumer expectations, right?
Anybody who's done a remodel project or a new construction project knows
that it's very labor intensive as far as project management side,
you know, knowing when your products are going to arrive, planning the whole
front end of the process before you even order your products.
These are not challenges unique to kitchen and bath.
These are challenges unique to any kind of home renovation project.
So certainly continuing to innovate on solutions
that enable us to be a stronger partner to both our customers
and to the ultimate consumer of our goods.
So more to come on where we evolve that.
We certainly have a strategy where we will have some close in unveiling
of new technology, but it's an ongoing initiative for our organization.
So many years to come we will be unveiled ring and highlighting new ways
to do business that make it easier and more efficient for everyone.
So that's the first one.
And the second one that I would say really around color.
And you heard me talk about this a little bit earlier
because I'm very excited about this.
I think it's been a long time coming for, you know, the creative component
of of our solutions to continue
to offer something different than just the white shaker.
And this doorway has now been opened to bring color back into our space.
And that doesn't just mean paint colors or optics.
It's the whole evolution of where it stands going to go.
And, you know, we've had to take a break from that for a couple of years,
you know, coming out of the pandemic.
But we're really full speed ahead focusing on that again.
And as there are some very exciting things on the horizon.
So I can't wait to we start bringing those things to the market.
and as I
always say to my best friend, feel free to test those colors and new styles
in my kitchen when you remodel, you know, just, just spitballing ideas.
They're offering it up.
So there's never any shortage of those kinds of volunteers.
So darn it to do well.
Stephanie, so much appreciate
you taking the time to join us today and share your insights with us.
It sounds great
and we look forward to seeing it and including perhaps the celebration
of the demise of the shaker cabinets somewhere in the future.
And fingers crossed. Right.
Stephanie, thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you, Sue.
Thank you for joining us on the Sauce podcast.
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