Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
My name is Alyssa.
And my name's Bri.
We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
word.
And apparently that's controversial.
Get comfy.
My feet are tan.
But my legs are not.
Bri has the absolute most hilarious tan lines right now.
Like Birkenstock tan lines times 5,000.
I'm a Birkenstock girly, but I also am a leggings girly.
So I got like two brown stripes on my feet.
So if you haven't listened recently, we just got back from Disney a couple of days ago.
It seems like forever ago.
It does.
It feels like we've been back to real life for a long time.
Back to reality?
Oh, there goes gravity.
I think the issue is that we got back from Disney and like jumped directly back into
real life and that has taken a toll on me.
Well we got back.
We did, okay.
Stupid things.
We did stupid things.
So we got on a flight, the evening flight.
It was like 6.30.
So we didn't actually get back to the house until like 11.30 and then I had work the next
day.
Yeah.
And my daughter went to school the next day.
So we ended up and I wasn't supposed to work, but work scheduled me because that's what
they do in life.
And my husband worked.
It was a mess.
Are you guys enjoying our complaining?
Listen, we're having a hard time.
So we've had to settle in with two glasses of wine.
We're having wine.
A new segment.
Wine down with a Lisanne Brianna.
I love it.
How do we do that?
We invite everybody to also have a glass of wine and listen to our rants and our raging.
We are not particularly wound down people.
We're kind of like high key people.
So we're wound tight.
Hang on.
I gotta have a sip.
Oh, me too.
Mine is called like lime light or something and it's got hints of key lime and I, it's,
I can't quite decide.
You don't like it because key limes are gross.
No, key lime is good.
You're insane.
I'm not.
Okay.
But have you ever had, I know you've had it because I've had it with you people out there
in computer land.
Have you ever had the lemon cello La Croix's because those I think are disgusting.
Absolutely horrendous.
It's like vanilla.
Yeah.
It tastes like, you know, those cookies that are supposed to be sandwich cookies and you
get them in Sunday school and they're lemon.
Yeah.
They taste like vanilla, but it's a cookie.
So that's acceptable.
Yeah, but not in a beverage.
This is a beverage and a sparkling beverage.
Yeah.
It tastes like La Croix.
So really it's just like someone yelled, lemon cello across the room and you took a sip of
water, a sip of sparkling water though.
So it's better.
Oh, we can't even make fun of it.
We like La Croix's.
I do.
I have a poster of La Croix in my room.
You do.
I'm looking at it right now.
It's very Andy Warhol.
It was brought to you by Lydia.
So yeah, we're back.
We've got the Disney saddies.
Last week we were hanging out with Mickey Mouse.
So this, it's tough.
I'll be honest with you.
I watched a video today on being your true authentic self and your realist self.
And I want to be really real with everybody.
Oh dear.
I have not recovered from my sweat mustache from Florida.
I still am struggling with it for some reason, just this upper lip sweat that doesn't want
to go away.
And we're in Michigan now, like in the morning it's 53 degrees.
That's cold.
It was hot today though.
I have like, what's happening?
I don't know.
Yeah, it was hot in Florida.
I have not.
Okay.
My birthday is in the winter.
I am a winter baby.
I do not do heat or mugginess.
It gets muggy in Michigan, but there it's just different.
I can do a fair bit of heat if I'm sitting down.
Like I'm going out to the patio to have a glass of wine or we're just stepping outside
and then directly back into the air conditioning.
But it was hot.
I think the real feel most days was like 106 or something.
And we all looked disgusting.
Yeah we did.
We were like swamp people.
I just don't know how people function in that level of humidity.
People out there, hey, do we have any listeners in Florida?
We do.
How are you dealing with the heat?
Do you constantly feel like a swamp monster?
Go to our TikTok and let us know.
With the hashtag, we are more swamp monsters.
You know how Lady Gaga calls all of her followers little monsters?
Yeah.
Oh, our listeners are swamp monsters.
Why?
Because we're hot.
That sentence just kept getting worse.
Sorry.
On that note, speaking of hot, boy does Alyssa have a story for you.
Boy do I have a story.
And it's not about rubber ducks.
You'll understand if you've seen Veggie Tales.
All right.
For the drinking game, Bree said Veggie Tales.
There you go.
So today we are starting a series.
I think it's going to be a three parter, but frankly I'm going to keep talking about it
till I feel like not talking about it anymore.
Because it's our podcast and not yours.
So we're going to be talking about one of the Bible characters that I think is potentially
one of the most influential women in the Bible and definitely one that has shaped the way
that women are talked about in church.
Very true.
And I've wanted to talk about her for a long time, but we just haven't.
We've had a lot to talk about.
I don't know.
We haven't dedicated the time to it yet.
And so we're going to start probably a three parter on Bathsheba and her story, which is
in I think 2nd Samuel.
Let me look that up real quick.
Now guys, I want you to know that in researching for this particular set of episodes, I read
this portion.
So it's 2nd Samuel 11 and then it extends into 12, chapter 12.
And I read this story in four different translations, which wow.
Including Aramaic in Greek.
No, I didn't do that.
She's lying.
I just really wanted to boost your confidence.
Did you just want to say Aramaic?
Yep.
No, I read this in the NIV and the message.
And then I thought, all right, those are like the two of the translations that I turn to
often.
Now the message is not a translation, but those are two that I read semi-often.
And I thought I should probably read this from a different perspective because of the
way that I've heard it preached.
And we'll get into that in a second.
So I also read it in the ESV, which we are not a fan of.
And then the BLT.
No, that's not a thing.
It's a thing.
It's just not a Bible.
Bree's hungry.
No, and then I also read it in the KJV.
So the King James version, the KJV, is one that we don't talk about a ton, I don't think.
There's a lot of these thousand vies.
It's just one of the ones that's a lot older.
So yeah, it's written in Old English.
It can be tough to understand.
And when we go, we'll do an episode on translations at some point.
And when we do that, we'll talk a little bit about people's view of the King James version.
But it's not one of my favorites.
If it's one of your favorites, that's totally fine.
It's just not one of my preferred versions.
So what I'm going to do is kind of just go through the story of Bathsheba.
Like I said, Bathsheba's story is told in 2 Samuel.
And I can't tell you how many times I've heard this preached.
Women don't get talked about from this church stage a lot.
The pulpit.
Thank you.
But when they do, when they do, it's usually negative.
And when it comes to Bathsheba, that is definitely the case.
So we're going to go through some of the preconceived notions and then kind of the general story.
And then the next couple of weeks, we're going to go into some of our good friends who have
done really great research on this topic.
Our BFFs.
Yes.
Beth, I'm looking for you.
Someday.
I hope that she listens to this, but also I hope that she doesn't because she might be
frightened with how much we reference her.
I refer to people exclusively as my best friends.
Oh.
Often.
So when this story gets brought up in church, Bathsheba is often portrayed as the bad guy,
bad girl.
I don't really know.
Her mischievous girl.
Is that a song?
I'm sorry.
Who are you?
Yes, it is.
What song is that?
Promiscuous Girl.
What is it?
You've heard it.
I'm actually genuinely upset that I don't know this song.
How dare you?
Anyway.
So when this story gets told, Bathsheba is often portrayed as the promiscuous girl.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
She's the one who seduces David, who is the king of Israel at the time.
She's the bad guy, right?
In most versions of this.
Because women are so often referred to exclusively as sexual objects.
Yes.
So we're going to go into her story.
Like I said, I'm just going to tell her story in a little bit of the way that we told the
story of the woman at the well a couple of weeks ago, and just kind of make her into
more of a real person.
Now her name really is not mentioned all that many times for as much as we focus on her
and have heard her name before.
She's definitely part of the story, but she's not really the main part of the story.
So the main character in her own story.
Well I mean the story is mostly about King David being a jerk.
And King David was Larry the Cucumber.
Okay just to just lay it out there, the Veggie Tales did a video about this story.
And it's really truly bad.
Except that they couldn't do it exactly how it is because the story is all about sex and
Veggie Tales can't do that.
So they made it about rubber duckies.
Obviously because all sex links back to rubber ducks throughout history.
So the real story.
So this is like I said 2 Samuel 11 and 12.
This goes into 12 a little bit.
And their lineage goes further as well, but those are the chapters we're going to focus
on because that's a lot of verses folks.
It's a lot of reading when you've read it four separate times.
So the story starts off with the Israelite army off to war.
So they're gone.
They are going against the Ammonites who they've been at war with before.
So I think the Ammonites attacked them at some point.
So they've been going back and forth for a while.
And the Bible literally says it's the time of year when kings go off to war.
I don't know why.
The spring is the time for war I guess.
No it's for war.
I should write that down.
You should.
Spring is coming Bree, you better prepare.
I'm practically here.
So anyway King David has sent his people off to war, but he has not gone to war, which
is significant in this story.
Most people, most of the Israelite people probably would have assumed that he had gone
off to war.
It would have been the expectation that he went with his army because it's his time.
And also remember that David was a soldier in the past.
When we're talking about King David here, we're talking about the same guy that knocked
Goliath out with a single stone.
And then I kind of forgot about that.
There's so many Davids.
There's just the one in the Bible though.
It's just the one and he's got a lot of stories.
What?
Bree needs to go back to Bible college.
I graduated from one.
So David is not at war.
He's in his palace, right?
Now his palace is at the top of the hill.
It's the highest point.
It's the most defensible point.
As all palaces should be.
As they should be.
Think like giant castle on top of a mountain.
Okay.
I mean, not really because it's a desert, but it's a hill.
It's a hill.
It's on top of a hill.
So when you're on top of a hill, you tend to have the best vantage point, right?
Like you can see about.
And they did that for a reason so that defense would be better.
However, David apparently is being a bit of a creep.
I'm a creep.
Now that one I knew.
Thank you.
I'm surprised that you know that one, but not the other one.
I don't know.
Nellie was not a big part of my childhood.
So the story continues on that David essentially took a midday nap.
Now I don't know if this was cultural and normal.
The Bible kind of treats it like it's just midday nap.
That's normal time.
Midday nap.
I wish I could have a midday nap.
It was like his, what do they call it?
Siesta?
Yeah, Siesta.
It was his Siesta.
So he gets up from that.
It's like evening time.
So I think dusk, people are headed to bed, whatever.
So he gets up and he goes straight to the roof.
Odd choice.
I do that every once in a while.
But that's what he does.
He goes straight to the roof and he looks around.
Now the Bible doesn't say this, this is totally Alyssa's thoughts and opinions.
But to me, why are you going off on your roof, bud?
Is that normal behavior?
I feel like David has done this before and he knows what windows to look in.
I mean he's being a peeping Tom, right?
That's clearly based on the rest of the story, that's what he's doing.
Because what happens is he sees Bathsheba.
Now she, it depends on the translation.
Certain translations and certain scholars have said she was on her roof and certain
translations and scholars say she was in her house.
Either way, this gets lots of pastors.
Pastors like to make a big deal out of the fact that she was publicly bathing.
As though she was standing there like, oh, King, please look out at me at this moment
while I bathe.
Don't wave my fan in your direction.
Yeah.
No.
She was in her home.
It's evening time.
She has an expectation of privacy.
Just like if you were in your home, you get home from a rough day of work, you go head
to the bath and maybe your curtains aren't all the way closed and someone peeks in.
Is that on you?
No.
No, it's not.
Either way, whether she's on her roof or in her house.
She did not consent to someone peeping at her.
Exactly.
At no point was this okay.
I don't care if she was laying naked in her yard.
Well, I mean, really, like how many of us have gone out on the back porch and suntanned
or something like that?
You know, you have an expectation of privacy in your space.
She would have had an expectation of privacy in her home in the evening where she could
bathe.
So David's looking around.
He sees her.
He's like, oh, she's gorgeous.
Yeah.
And from here on, I really don't understand how this story turns into Bathsheba being
the bad person because let me tell you, David makes a series of horrifying decisions and
Bathsheba is just the unfortunate bystander in these decisions.
Because keep in mind at this time, she did not have a lot of rights.
No.
She had none, like none.
We're talking Old Testament Bible.
We're not even talking Jesus has come and said, hey, treat these women better or Paul
has come and said, treat these women better.
This is Old Testament Israel.
She was property that was easily thrown away.
Yeah, exactly.
So David asks some of his people, find out who she is.
So they ask around and they're like, oh, this is so-and-so's daughter.
Now, she's referred to by her relationship to men.
So so-and-so's daughter and also so-and-so's wife.
So Uriah is her husband.
First of all, horrible name.
Uriah?
Sounds like urethra.
Also, you know how sometimes people like their surnames are named after what their occupations
are?
Do you think Bathsheba's name is Bathsheba because she loves to bathe?
I thought you were going with Uriah on that one and it was going to be much worse.
I'm glad that's where we went.
His dad was a urologist.
And they named his son Uriah.
I don't think they had those back then.
Well, they should have.
So David finds out that this woman is married.
Now, up until this point, like, yeah, he's a peeping Tom and he's being terrible.
But at the very least, there's plausible deniability that maybe he didn't know she was married.
Doesn't make it okay.
Nope.
Doesn't mean that she had ever consented in the first place.
But I guess at least he didn't know she was married.
Now there's no deniability.
He knows she's married.
He knows she is married to one of his people, one of his citizens.
One of his soldiers.
Yeah, one of his soldiers.
So her husband is off to war in this war with the Ammonites.
Fighting for him.
Yeah.
In a place he should have been fighting and he was not.
Instead of respecting her, or at the very least respecting his soldier, he immediately
has her brought to the palace.
Keep in mind, she doesn't have a choice.
Exactly.
When this story is told, the millions of times that I've heard this preached, it's like,
oh, and she seductively walked over to the palace because she knew he was staring at
her.
She didn't even bother to put on a towel.
Like, no.
She got a summons from the king.
The king's people came and said, all right, you're coming to the palace.
Now at this point, she probably had no idea why.
For all she knows, David's about to tell her that her husband horrifically died.
She has no idea what's going on.
And all the Bible says, so this is chapter 11, verse 4, and it says, then David sent
messengers to get her, to get her, not to ask her to come, to get her.
She came to him and he slept with her.
I think words are so powerful in that moment.
It says he slept with her.
It doesn't say they slept together.
He took advantage of her.
And then it says, then she went back home.
So he wasn't in love with her.
Again, not that that would make it okay, but this was just lust.
He had a bunch of wives already.
This was just him wanting to sleep with this girl.
This was a power move.
I can, so I'm going to.
Now I'm not going to say the specific word here because algorithms don't like it, but
he forced himself upon her.
And we have examples of this in modern day.
Let's say the president of the United States calls you into his office and says, you're
going to sleep with me.
Now this happened when I was a kid very publicly.
And society absolutely blamed her.
But the reality when we can look at it with a much more feminist and equality centered
perspective is that when a man of power, of extreme power, says to you, you're going to
do this, the implication is or else.
I actually watched a TikTok, I think I sent it to you today, that was talking about that.
It was saying how men in positions of power, we excuse for their terrible choices and their
misbehaviors over and over again to keep their power.
So then it's much easier to find a way to blame that woman.
Was her skirt too short?
Did she look at him a certain way?
Did she walk the wrong way home?
Time and time again, we are victim blaming.
And then people get upset that we have a term for it called victim blaming.
Well, you look at this and the focus is always on she was bathing, she was naked.
How dare she want to wash herself?
In her own home.
In her own.
How about we look out there and say, you're never allowed to have a bubble bath again.
It's sinful.
I'm looking at you, mom.
It's just when you really break the story down like that, like making her into a real
person, I sincerely don't understand how she's ever been blamed in this story.
So it continues on and the next part of the story is it talks about her being on her period.
So just a nice little trigger warning for you in case you haven't caught on that we
talk about periods yet.
So she in the Jewish culture of this time, women were considered unclean during their
periods.
And so that would have been they gave them like about five days of uncleanness, but then
also afterwards, there were seven additional days where they were considered unclean.
Now during this time, they couldn't have sex and they couldn't really like touch their
husbands at all.
I'm pretty sure that this is still the case today.
I think Orthodox Jews in particular do still practice this.
And you know, it sounds terrible, but maybe for women that don't have a lot of rights,
this was a reprieve.
You know, so that's a little bit of an offshoot, but yeah, but maybe part of their culture
at the time, right?
This was how they were functioning.
And so there's arguments as to whether this bath she was taking was her like ritual cleansing,
which they would have done at the end of the seven days, or if this was just a normal bath
and she was still in her unclean phase.
And if she was still in her unclean phase, then that would have been an additional sin
on David because that would have meant now he was considered unclean as well.
So this is just a little slight offshoot, but the different versions that I read kind
of argued a little bit on that, on where she was in her cycle.
Like what a weird thing to argue about.
Was she on day two or day eight?
We don't know.
Oh, day eight.
That's a rough time.
So Bathsheba goes back home, right?
David probably forgets that she exists.
I forgot that you existed.
Can't think any more of it.
She's litigious.
That's a fun name.
Litigious?
Can you imagine a child with that name?
They would cry all the time.
How would they spell that?
They wouldn't.
They wouldn't have room on the Scantron.
So Bathsheba goes home.
David does not send for her again.
Okay.
No.
All it says is-
Because he took what he wanted.
Exactly.
Now the mysteriousness is gone.
So she gets pregnant.
As women often do.
And so she sends word back to the castle.
The palace, the- I don't know.
Where are David's living?
The castle.
And says, hey, I'm pregnant.
Now based on timelines and the fact that they didn't have pregnancy tests at the time, you're
talking probably three weeks in between this.
Now the verses, it's just verse four and five.
She went back home.
She conceived and sent word to David saying, I'm pregnant.
But you have to think there's about a three week period in the middle here.
At least.
Right.
Because she would have wanted to be sure.
She would have wanted to wait.
So maybe even a month before she says like, hey, we have a problem and you've left me
here with the problem and I don't know what to do now.
And my husband is nowhere around.
Yeah.
So she can't even, not that this is something you'd want to do anyway, but she can't even
try and pass it off as like, no, this was my husband's child.
He's gone.
He's been gone.
We don't know for how long, but long enough that this isn't his kid.
Yeah.
So David panics because, oh, hey, somebody's going to find out that King David is screwing
around.
Ah.
So the first thing that he does now, again, making conscious bad choices.
We're not just talking about heat of the moment.
Oh no, I slipped and did something bad.
Not that that makes it okay, but that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about conscious choices, premeditated.
Second degree.
Yeah.
Even in American law, premeditated murder, way worse than impulse murder.
Right.
Both bad.
People die, but it's worse.
Yeah.
So David sends word to the leader of his army, whose name is Joab, and he says, send me Uriah.
I don't think he says why.
Uriah was not of a status that he would have normally been called by the king, but David
is like, send that dude.
I need to have a chat.
So they send him.
Now I don't know how long this takes, but they're walking places.
Okay.
Right.
It's not like he can hop on a Spirit airline.
It'll take a while.
Yeah.
So now Bathsheba is, I mean, potentially two months pregnant.
Yeah.
I don't know how long it took.
Where's your athro?
We don't know.
I don't know how long it took for him to get back, but it probably took a bit for him to
get back to David.
So he gets there and David's like, how's the war going?
Hey buddy, long time no see.
Love ya.
And so Uriah's probably confused.
Why are you asking me?
Why am I here?
There's no reason for me in particular to be here, but he doesn't question it because
this is his king.
Right.
This is his God ordained king.
He is supposed to listen.
So he does.
So David says, go home, wash your feet, have a good meal, and then you'll go back tomorrow.
You'll go back to the war tomorrow.
So David actually sends him with a bunch of meat and whatever for like a good meal for
the night.
He's trying to really trying to get him to sleep with his wife.
Maybe some oysters, some champagne.
Cute chocolate.
And he's like, but again, this says to me, David doesn't actually care about Bathsheba.
No, he's worried about covering up his mistake.
Right.
So Uriah doesn't go back home.
Instead, he sleeps at the gates of the palace with the rest of David's servants.
Now David calls him the next day and is like, what the crap, dude?
I told you to go home.
You're not home.
Go to the gate.
Get out.
And Uriah is like, well, all of my brothers, the soldiers are out there battling and I shouldn't
be here comfortable and enjoying myself while they're out there fighting and dying.
So I'm going to sleep here at your palace gates with your servants and then I'm going
to go back.
And David's like, well, come on, man.
That's not what I wanted you to do.
But he can't just straight up tell him.
I need you to go home and sleep with your wife.
Like, that's a little bit suspicious.
We're going to get flagged on this.
So David is like, OK, he's calculating in his head.
And again, there are many moments in this story where David could fess up, where he
could say, I messed up.
He's the king.
There's not going to be a lot of consequences for him.
He could easily do that.
He chooses not to.
So what he does instead is he says, all right, why don't you have dinner with me one more
time?
We'll eat, we'll drink.
It'll be great.
You'll go home tonight.
You'll go home.
Home.
And you're home, not mine.
And then you'll go back to work.
I'll walk you home if you want.
And so they do.
David gets him wasted.
OK.
What a good time.
And then Uriah, again, doesn't go home.
He sleeps at the gates of the palace.
So now what's David to do?
David's like, aw, shucks.
And again, another opportunity to say, hey, I messed up.
Let's fix this problem.
I want to sit you down for a second.
There's a reason why I called you.
It wasn't just because I thought you were a great time.
I in fact thought your name was Eurethra.
Also, I slept with your wife.
Oh, by the way.
And she's pregnant.
So now David apparently no longer cares what happens to Uriah.
Now they've had interactions now.
David knows him now, but he sends him back and he sends his people back with word to
Joab, who again is the leader of the army.
And David says, look, I want you to put Uriah at the worst part of the fighting.
I want you to put him as far ahead of everybody else as you can with the strongest part of
the other team around him.
And then I want you all to back off.
Leave him there.
Clearly we're murdering this man at this point.
But you can't question him because he's the king.
So Joab says, all right.
So they go up to the Ammonite city.
They get real close to the wall, which you're not supposed to do.
Are the peas throwing slushies?
The peas are throwing slushies.
I think that's a different veggie tails.
And the walls of Jericho.
And so they get up really close and they put Uriah right where the worst or the I guess
I guess the best fighters from the other side are.
And then everybody else backs off.
So Uriah is killed along with other people.
Not just him.
Other people were sacrificed in this, I don't know, war David had against Uriah in particular.
And we don't know how many people.
We don't know what the casualties were.
So Joab sends word back to David and he's like, here's what happened in this battle.
And the servant tells David and David is like, what the crap are you guys doing?
That was a terrible idea.
You're not supposed to get close to the wall, whatever.
And then the servant's like, oh, by the way, Uriah died.
And after he says that, David's like, oh, well, you're good.
You know, war happens.
People die.
You guys did a really great job, it sounds like.
Doing your best.
All is well.
So Uriah is dead, right?
So now Bathsheba, we don't know how she got the news.
We don't know how far along she is at this point.
Exactly.
I mean, we're talking months in.
This is not a quick story.
It looks like a quick story in the Bible, but remember that there is a long timeline
here.
She's probably showing at this point.
What are her neighbors thinking?
Like what?
I mean, they're in robes, so it might not be super obvious yet, but it's been some time.
Think about, you know, when you're in middle school, high school and in your, what class
is it where you're like homemaking class or whatever.
And you have to.
It's called homemaking.
I think it is.
When they would send those girls out with pregnancy bellies on.
Yes.
I remember girls talking about like people just stared at me in the target, but think
about how much worse it is there.
Oh yeah.
Because you're, I mean, everybody knows her husband's even gone.
People are saying things to her.
People are isolating her and it's not her fault.
Right.
So she goes through a traditional period of mourning.
This is towards the end of chapter 11 and it doesn't really, we don't know how close
she was to her husband.
There's no indication of did they love each other?
Was this just an arranged marriage?
Marriage was very different back then.
So we have to take it in the context it's in.
Marriage was a partnership.
No, it wasn't.
A little tit for tat.
For sure it was not.
You'd think a lot.
I think I already quoted that.
Just gotta be on the bingo board somewhere.
So she goes through her traditional period of mourning.
Whatever that looks like for her, I'm not 100% sure.
We'll probably go into that in some more of our research as time goes on.
I don't think they were wearing black.
It's too hot.
It's very hot.
Pretty much the minute she's done mourning, David marries her.
Now I think this part gets used as this indication that, no, he really did love her.
Nah.
No.
He's saving face.
Again, the man's got a bunch of wives.
She doesn't matter to him necessarily anymore.
The Bible doesn't indicate that she matters to him anymore than any of these other wives.
It's just she's pregnant.
And if he doesn't marry her, she's going to be exiled in society.
His child is going to be exiled in society.
And plus also she has the ability to say, even though people might not believe her,
this kid is King David's.
So there's a lot of risk here for him, which is why he's covered his tracks over and over
and over.
And not in good ways.
No.
So then verse 27, so the last verse of chapter 11 says, after the time of mourning was over,
David had brought her to his house and she became his wife and bore him a son.
So she had the baby.
Again, timeline.
So you're talking from start to finish nine and a half ish months.
This is a long story.
I feel like we glaze over that all the time.
This is nine months of David saying, screw you, God, I'm going to do what I feel like.
And I know that-
And we make excuse after excuse.
Right.
Later on, David is called a man after God's own heart.
And I think that, or maybe before this, I don't know, I think that we don't like to
blame David and say that he forced himself on her.
And again, I can't say the word, but you all know what I'm talking about.
And murdered people.
And he did a lot of really bad, bad, bad stuff.
And we don't like to say that because if he's a man after God's own heart, how do we reconcile
those two things?
And I think the only way that I can reconcile it is that God forgives even when I wouldn't.
I don't want him to be forgiven in this story.
This is a bad story.
This is the worst of the stories.
And I think it's used as an example as the worst of the stories because God can forgive
the worst of the people.
I don't love it.
I struggle with it a lot.
Well, it shows how powerful God's love is.
It's not of this world.
And I think when we make excuses for his behavior because of that, we make the story smaller.
God's forgiveness is big enough to forgive this absolutely horrific person because that's
what he is in this story.
Now later on, he repents and et cetera, et cetera.
But in this story, he is the worst of humanity.
He's a murderer.
Yes.
Murderer of multiple people.
Like he doesn't care about his people.
He has abandoned his people in war.
He has done what he feels like doing to pleasure himself.
Right.
He's in pursuit of only what pleases him, not his people.
So I think it's important to say all of that out loud and to recognize that that is what's
happening here.
Well I think in that story too, it makes sense because if he's a man after God's own heart,
we have to find some way to excuse his behavior and make it a little bit smaller in our heads.
So what's the easy thing to do?
Make her into a bad person.
Blame her.
Right.
But again, I read this story in four different versions and the reason that I did that is
because the ESV and the KJV tend to be a lot harder on women.
Especially the ESV was written with that intent.
And so I thought perhaps the reason that this gets preached the way that it does, perhaps
the reason that Bathsheba is always put out as like...
A put out?
Yeah.
As promiscuous or as in cahoots with David where she planned to kill off her husband
or as politically ambitious.
Or pregnant on purpose.
Exactly.
Maybe the reason for that is because that's how the ESV presents it or the KJV presents
it or something.
So I read it in all these versions and there were a couple of words that I'm like, yeah,
that does skew a little bit against her.
But for the most part, even those versions are saying the same thing.
They're all saying this was David's fault.
He's a moron.
Yeah.
But think about putting it into today's situation.
A young girl is showering in her house and a man of some kind of power happens to see
her through her windows, takes advantage of her.
She gets pregnant.
He murders her husband.
That wouldn't be a story that you're like, oh, but he's a good man.
That's not okay.
Right.
And it's important that we say none of this is okay.
It's important that we call that out, that we don't whitewash it and make it pretty.
Because here's what happens in the next chapter.
So chapter 12 is all about how this is David's fault.
So pastors out there who are blaming Bathsheba for this story, apparently you've skipped
chapter 12.
I would love to introduce you to it.
Oh, Alyssa, get on your soapbox.
So it says, now this is where Veggie Tales really comes in.
So Brie, jump in with rubber duckies anytime.
We're going to get copyrighted by Veggie Tales at some point for sure.
Copyright me for want want.
I feel like that's it.
So chapter 12, the Lord sent Nathan, who I believe is a prophet, to David.
Not your husband?
Not my husband.
He wasn't born in another life?
Not that I'm aware of.
Nathan?
You have something to share?
When he came to him, he said, there were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other
poor.
The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing except
one little yulam that he had bought.
He raised it and it grew up with him and his children.
It or it shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms.
It was like a daughter to him.
That's disgusting.
It's quite dramatic.
OK, he's just making a point.
Have you seen that TikTok of the guy that has a little dog and he eats out of the yogurt
and then the dog eats out of the yogurt and then he eats out of the yogurt and the dog
eats out of yogurt?
That's what I'm picturing.
All of the people listening just went, oh, yeah, it's nasty out there, people.
So then Forg says, now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from
taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him.
Instead, he took the yulam that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who
had come to him.
So Nathan is putting together a story here, right?
He's talking like Jesus.
Yeah, it's a parable.
And David doesn't quite catch on.
It takes like emotional IQ is not common.
No.
Out there, you know, it takes a lot to be introspective.
And we don't know how much time again was between these two stories.
Like how much time is between David marrying Bathsheba and she has her baby to now?
We don't know.
Was Nathan in town and he just walked across to the palace or was he, you know, a country
over and had to walk?
We don't know.
So it says that David was essentially furious at that man and told Nathan that that man
needed to die, to die, the rich man, because he had to pay for the lamb four times over
because how dare he take something that was someone else's when he had so much.
I have another song in my heart.
Okay, Bri, what's the song in your heart?
If I was a rich man.
You good? is it out of your heart now?
Yeah.
All right, good.
So then after David freaks out, you imagine him standing up from his throne and screaming
and whatever.
How dare he?
Nathan's like laughing over there.
He's like giggling, you know, whatever.
He's like, you idiot.
And Nathan said to David, I'm talking about you.
Stupid, stupid head.
You are the man in this story.
You have so many riches.
God gave you everything.
He gave you this palace.
You have all these wives.
You have all these kids.
You have everything you could possibly need.
You want for nothing.
And he says, and if that wasn't enough, God would have given you more.
So not only do you have everything, but if you had asked for more, if this wasn't enough
for you, God would have given it to you.
But instead you went and took something that was never yours to begin with.
You ripped apart a family.
You destroyed someone's life.
You destroyed people's life.
Her life, yes.
And David's like, well crap.
Well, I've been caught.
Probably this has been going on for a year at this point, would be my guess.
Like approximately a year, nine months to a year, right?
That this has been going on for him.
That he has been apparently not caring at all because we're not, he doesn't even notice
that the story's about him.
So he's not sitting there feeling guilt ridden.
No he's not staying up at night thinking about what he's done.
No.
He's moved on.
He's good.
Yeah, he's fine.
Nathan goes on to talk about how evil this behavior was.
He calls out all of David's actions.
He calls out the murder.
He calls out all of it, right?
Him forcing himself upon her.
All of the things.
Things that, again, he wouldn't have known other than that God told him.
Then he says, he tells David what's going to happen to him.
And he's basically like, you're screwed.
Out of your household are going to come the people that are going to take you down, blah,
blah, blah.
So David then repents.
He says, I sinned against the Lord.
I'm so sorry.
He falls on the ground.
And then Nathan says, God will take away your sin.
He'll forgive you of this.
But there are still consequences to your actions.
And this is where I struggle a lot with like Old Testament God and Old Testament stories.
Because what happens from here is the son that David and Bathsheba had dies.
Nathan says, your son is going to die.
And their son is pretty much immediately taken ill.
And seven days later, he passes away.
We don't know how old this kid is.
Is he just born?
Is he two?
Like, we really don't know.
And imagine just the shattering of your heart in that story.
And why does God choose this as a punishment for David?
I don't have an answer for that.
I think it's just another way that David took someone else's life.
Yeah.
He took away so much already.
And sin has consequences, unfortunately.
And this was the consequence.
And I hold in my soul because I can't deal with these stories very well, particularly
because I have young kids.
I struggle with them a lot.
The only way that I can handle these stories is to say, when that child passed away, he
was immediately in Jesus's arms.
God had him.
God loved him.
And he's up there right now.
And maybe that's fortunate.
We don't know what his life would have looked like.
But instead, he was always, always loved and cherished by Jesus in heaven.
I think it's so hard for us here on earth to understand those things.
But God has such greater reasons and such a different supernatural love than we can
even comprehend.
It's hard to wrap your mind around it.
It's a hard story.
And I think people really criticize Christianity for these stories because Old Testament God
is rough.
He's a little wrathful.
And the only way I can justify it is faith.
And that's hard to explain.
But I also fully understand why people struggle with this.
I struggle with this.
It's a hard story.
It's a hard story from every angle.
It's a bad story.
No one came out unscathed.
No.
But at the end of the day, it's easy to blame God in this scenario.
But like you said, David was the one that caused all of this hurt and pain.
It's easy to blame God for the hurt and pain in the world, but people are making choices.
Actions have consequences every time.
And you have to think, is this action worth the consequence?
With everything you do in life.
And that's true whether you believe in God or not.
As humans, our actions have consequences.
Whether there's a benevolent God out there or there's a spaghetti monster, all of your
actions have consequences.
Cool, I just got shot back to Scooby Doo or something.
So that's essentially the story of David and Bathsheba.
Your son passes away, the seven days between Nathan's prophecy and when he passes away,
David won't eat.
He's begging God to save his son.
And then once he passes away, David goes and it's as he tries to comfort Bathsheba, which
I mean, I don't think I want a lot of comforting from him.
Actually, I'd be like, if you don't get away from me right now, I'm going to, I can't say
it because I think we'll get flagged.
The rest of the story is still tough because verse, so this is chapter 12 verse 24 and
second Samuel.
And it says, then David comforted his wife Bathsheba and he went to her and made love
to her.
Um, no.
So again, it's, it doesn't end good here.
Okay.
Like it's still rough even at the end.
This is a hard, hard story.
Now she gets pregnant again and they do have another son and that son is Solomon, who very
important story in the Bible, obviously.
And we won't go into it because wow, that would take a long time.
But at the end of it, yes, Bathsheba has another son.
Yes, they stay married.
It's just hard cause you, you're not there.
So you don't know.
Right.
So like for you out there, men and women, maybe ask the other person, is that how you
want to be comforted?
Or is this just for me?
And we can't, we don't know the words that were used.
We don't know the connection that they had.
We don't know who she was as a person.
But again, just like the woman at the well story, I hope that we can redeem her story
a little bit here because man, was she not the bad guy?
She wasn't the bad guy.
Well, she does become part of the lineage of Jesus.
So just like the woman at the well who gets blamed for sleeping around, which is the same
thing that she's getting blamed for.
It's the easiest thing to do to a woman, right?
Blame her for being seductive.
Just like Jesus never said to the woman at the well, go and sin no more or repent or
any of those things.
None of that is said to Bathsheba either.
Now Nathan, the prophet could have gone to her as well and said, hey, stop bathing on
your roof.
Like he could have, he didn't.
He went to David and said, you're the worst.
And so to blame her in this story is just short-sighted and sexist and a manipulation
of the Bible that doesn't just border on blasphemous.
It's like way into the blasphemous zone.
I also think, side note, how interesting it is that Jesus's story, how he came to this
world is not through perfection, not through perfect people, through mistakes and imperfect
people.
He came into this world.
Well, how incredible that this woman now, her story becomes that of Jesus's story.
She's woven into that.
Forgiveness and salvation.
Everything that was horrible about her life.
I mean, her life sucked.
Everything about that gets reversed and God gives her this incredible blessing.
And now we tell her story and we hear her story and we've destroyed her story as a church.
But I hope that you all who are listening can hear her story and now go out and tell
it in a very different way because she withstood all of this.
She survived.
She would have been hashtag me too in a big, big way and she survived it.
Her name is written down in the Bible and it's been passed down for generations and
generations and generations.
We're talking about her now.
And she was Jesus's great, great, great, great, great whatever grandma.
I mean, think of that.
Like think of how utterly incredible.
And she probably thought my life is going to amount to nothing.
Much like the woman at the well who was at the end.
She was at the end of her rope.
Bathsheba in this story is at the end.
She just can't anymore.
She's hit rock bottom and then she dug a hole and found a basement.
But she keeps going because that's what women do.
That's what we do.
That's what we live for.
Brie was about to sing another song if you didn't catch on to that.
Now unfortunately we did not reference Veggie Tales as much as I had hoped we would this
episode.
Well, we can make a couple posts about rubber ducks.
Oh good.
And if you listen you'll get it.
If you've seen Veggie Tales you might get it.
I feel like it's such an integral part of our childhood.
And I don't know if it was for everyone else, but if it wasn't, go back guys.
It's pretty solid.
There's always time to go back.
So next week we are going to talk about this story some more.
We're going to dive into some different analyses of it and we're going to have a chat with
our best friends, Marg, Beth, and others.
I've already started doing some of the research and I'm excited to do some more and I'm going
to make Brie do some of it also.
Gee I love research.
I've always said that.
She's always said that.
Alright Brie, pick a state we should call out for people to listen in.
Oh have we already done New Hampshire?
I don't think so.
I have a question for you out there.
I may have already said this, but quite frankly I black out all the time.
New Hampshire, are you a state?
I have never met anyone from New Hampshire.
I'm pretty sure it's like some government conspiracy.
Alright, people of New Hampshire.
I need you to listen.
I need you to listen to this podcast so I can tell you're real.
Now I gotta go in and see if we have anybody in New Hampshire.
Alright, well we'll see you all next week where we may be a little less sad about our
lack of Disneying.
I may be a little more rested, but I may have two glasses of wine next time.
We'll bring the whole bottle next time.
You should also bring a whole bottle.
I know this comes out at 10 o'clock in the morning, but like you can listen to it at
10 o'clock at night.
Or you can have a bottle of wine at 10 o'clock in the morning.
We've all heard of mimosas.
It's just day drinking, but made acceptable.
Alright, we'll see you all then.
I love you.
And good night.
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