1 00:00:05,300 --> 00:00:09,440 [CLAIRE] Welcome to Talking Postgres, a monthly podcast for developers who love this database. 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,880 I'm your host, Claire Giordano, and in this podcast, we explore the human side of Postgres 3 00:00:15,140 --> 00:00:20,680 databases and open source, which means why do people who work with Postgres do what they 4 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,480 do, and how did they get there? 5 00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:27,500 Thank you to the team at Microsoft for sponsoring today's community conversation. 6 00:00:28,620 --> 00:00:32,280 And without further ado, today's guest is Magnus Hagander. 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,680 He is a Postgres database lead at Redpill Linpro, 8 00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:41,380 where he works with customers to advise and support their Postgres workloads. 9 00:00:42,020 --> 00:00:45,140 He is a Postgres committer and serves on the Postgres 10 00:00:45,220 --> 00:00:47,740 core team and the infrastructure team. 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:53,460 He's chair of the PostgreSQL Europe nonprofit that coordinates advocacy in Europe, 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:01:01,680 co-organizer of PGConf.EU since 2008, very involved in the Nordic PGDay conference as well. 13 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,740 And this is my favorite part, an avid sailor who lives in Sweden, 14 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:12,460 and he's been involved with Postgres since the late 90s. Welcome, Magnus. 15 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:18,400 [MAGNUS] Thank you, thank you. That was a long list of circles in the Venn diagram. 16 00:01:19,420 --> 00:01:20,740 [CLAIRE] Yeah, I never know what to do. 17 00:01:20,900 --> 00:01:25,780 Some podcasts just dive straight into the conversation, and they don't even introduce the guest 18 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,000 because they feel like, ah, people want to get straight to the meat of things. 19 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:33,500 But I feel like it's useful for anyone who doesn't know you yet 20 00:01:34,020 --> 00:01:36,760 to get a feel for all the different hats you wear. 21 00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:38,760 You wear a lot of hats. 22 00:01:40,940 --> 00:01:46,080 [MAGNUS] I do, sometimes too many, but it's also a lot of fun hats, so. 23 00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:52,740 [CLAIRE] All right, well, today's episode's topic is how I got started in Postgres. 24 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,400 And so that means we're going to start with your origin story. 25 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,560 So not so much where you were born, although that might be interesting, but how did 26 00:02:01,620 --> 00:02:06,020 you get started as a developer and with software and computers? 27 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:10,840 [MAGNUS] So with computers and software in general, I 28 00:02:12,140 --> 00:02:15,000 don't fully remember like this. It was a very long time back. 29 00:02:15,820 --> 00:02:18,780 You know, we had a computer at home. Of course, everyone else had 30 00:02:19,260 --> 00:02:21,700 the cool computers you could play games on. We had a 31 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,880 PC that you could write programs on because there weren't really any good 32 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,640 things around for it. So that's why I ended up 33 00:02:29,740 --> 00:02:32,740 starting to write my own stuff, I guess, rather than that. And then you'd go 34 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:36,320 visit your friends to play the fancy graphical games. 35 00:02:38,260 --> 00:02:42,960 [CLAIRE] Is fancy graphical a bit of a euphemism, or were they really fancy and graphical? 36 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:47,440 [MAGNUS] I mean, they were very fancy at the time, but 37 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,300 by today's standards, obviously, no, they were not. 38 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,140 [CLAIRE] Yeah, by today's standards, they're probably a bit retro. 39 00:02:54,980 --> 00:02:56,300 [MAGNUS] A little bit, just a little bit. 40 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:04,360 [CLAIRE] Okay, so computer at home, started to program, built some games. 41 00:03:06,380 --> 00:03:07,380 What was the next step? 42 00:03:09,580 --> 00:03:12,140 [MAGNUS] I think a lot of it came really 43 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:15,700 sort of, it was that for a while and then, you know, the internet showed up 44 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,520 and gave you a lot of collaboration and interesting things, and somewhere 45 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:24,220 pretty close to that. 46 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,900 I mean, at the beginning, yes, it was sort of signing up to Usenet and reading 47 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,460 newsgroups and things. But I latched on 48 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,800 to learning a little thing about Postgres pretty early on at that point. 49 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,000 Not using it, but somehow it showed up in the 50 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:42,600 threads to be read. 51 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,240 I guess at the time when I started with that, I'd sort of got a side 52 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,260 job alongside of high school, 53 00:03:55,620 --> 00:03:59,540 dealing with getting computers to run in general for different small organizations. 54 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,460 [CLAIRE] So wait a minute, you got exposed to Postgres when you were still in high school? 55 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,380 [MAGNUS] Right, sort of just after, I think, or, yeah, right around that time, 56 00:04:12,380 --> 00:04:16,740 or exposed to Postgres, I should say. I did install it and 57 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:20,880 more or less failed to run it, and this was in the Postgres 95 days. 58 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,620 So I managed to run it. At the time, I didn't really know 59 00:04:25,740 --> 00:04:31,000 anything about databases. So I don't think I used it very efficiently 60 00:04:31,660 --> 00:04:33,500 or very usefully really at all. 61 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,120 [CLAIRE] I was looking up your background and I saw that 62 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,080 you went to the Royal, the KTH Royal Institute of Technology, 63 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:46,400 which I assume is in Sweden. 64 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:48,480 [MAGNUS] It is. It is in Stockholm. 65 00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:53,240 [CLAIRE] But what I don't know is, did you study art or did you study software or 66 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:54,600 what did you study while you were there? 67 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:02,500 [MAGNUS] I started at electrical engineering and rather quickly switched over to computer science. 68 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,340 And basically the first year, I think, was identical except for a week of course. 69 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:12,320 So, and after the first year, I switched to computer science. 70 00:05:15,220 --> 00:05:16,960 [CLAIRE] Okay. Was that an agonizing switch? 71 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:19,920 [MAGNUS] No, not at all. 72 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:20,640 [CLAIRE] An obvious thing to do. 73 00:05:21,540 --> 00:05:23,260 [MAGNUS] It was an obvious thing to do at the time, yes. 74 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:32,120 [CLAIRE] All right, so I still think we want to understand your first involvement with Postgres a 75 00:05:32,180 --> 00:05:33,760 bit more. Can you, I mean, 76 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,880 I'm looking for more detail, but that assumes you remember it because obviously it was a 77 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:39,680 little while ago. 78 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,060 [MAGNUS] It was a little while ago. I mean, the very first, yeah, the first 79 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,160 exposure was around that time. Then it really went a few years. 80 00:05:48,420 --> 00:05:51,360 I didn't really use it properly, you know, when it was Postgres 95, 81 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,000 a few years passed, and then 82 00:05:55,620 --> 00:05:59,500 my first sort of real use was, I think the classic I was working at this 83 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:06,420 part-time job, needed a database to solve a problem, could not afford 84 00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:11,780 SQL Server or Oracle, which were the other options. Went looking for something that 85 00:06:12,420 --> 00:06:16,440 I could do because I wanted to solve a problem that nobody 86 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,580 agreed was a problem, so nobody would assign a budget to it. And I mean, that's 87 00:06:22,660 --> 00:06:26,720 a classic, at least at the time, right? That was why people went to Postgres. 88 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,440 Either it was because out of university and you wanted to do 89 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,620 see the insides of the database, or it was 90 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,380 because you needed a real database that did things like transactions and stuff properly, 91 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,740 and you couldn't afford the commercial ones. 92 00:06:42,950 --> 00:06:47,110 [CLAIRE] Okay, and this was a part-time job while you were at university or after you graduated? 93 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,980 [MAGNUS] Yes, this was while at university. 94 00:06:53,290 --> 00:06:57,270 [CLAIRE] Okay. Would you describe yourself as stubborn? I mean, it's kind of interesting that people didn't 95 00:06:58,290 --> 00:07:01,170 want to assign budget to it, but you thought it was a problem that needed to 96 00:07:01,190 --> 00:07:05,210 be fixed, and so you went off to find a way to address it. 97 00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:10,390 Was stubbornness a part of why you got involved with Postgres? 98 00:07:11,450 --> 00:07:12,490 I'm fishing for drama. 99 00:07:13,460 --> 00:07:15,620 [MAGNUS] To a point, and really it was more also the whole, 100 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:18,260 I knew that I could make my life easier this way 101 00:07:20,220 --> 00:07:24,760 and other people's as well, but obviously there is a level of selfishness 102 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,080 to all of those things. So by getting a solution to this problem, 103 00:07:31,540 --> 00:07:33,920 my life would be easier, therefore I would 104 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,200 go do it even if nobody would actually assign a budget to it. 105 00:07:38,830 --> 00:07:42,130 [CLAIRE] Now I'm assuming you were successful in this. Am I right? 106 00:07:42,020 --> 00:07:43,340 [MAGNUS] Yes, yes. 107 00:07:45,590 --> 00:07:48,430 [CLAIRE] Well, because it might have been a big failure, and then you might have come back 108 00:07:46,140 --> 00:07:46,520 [MAGNUS] That is true. 109 00:07:48,470 --> 00:07:50,830 [CLAIRE] and made another run later at Postgres, so. 110 00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:54,980 [MAGNUS] Yeah, no, no, that part is true. That's it, it was successful and then 111 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,900 I guess I didn't really do a lot of— 112 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,720 I ran some small things on Postgres on the side, and then I got involved more 113 00:08:02,780 --> 00:08:03,160 on the 114 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,160 community side in the Postgres project, 115 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,020 as many did, particularly at the time, more on the hobby side, right? 116 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,020 Because having had this first exposure and, you know, getting into the, 117 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,820 at the time, mailing lists was the way to go, right, or possibly newsgroup, talking to 118 00:08:19,860 --> 00:08:25,680 these people and realizing that there is so much in this community that I can learn, 119 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:31,580 which is what kept me going in my free time on the hobby side 120 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:32,620 is just the 121 00:08:33,940 --> 00:08:39,620 incredible amount of things to learn from all the other people that were 122 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:41,340 part of the community at the time. 123 00:08:42,450 --> 00:08:45,230 [CLAIRE] And you're still in university at this point, right? 124 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:52,940 [MAGNUS] I mean, yes and no. Yes, formally, in practice, maybe not as much. 125 00:08:59,970 --> 00:09:03,790 [CLAIRE] Got it. And I read somewhere that you were part of the Windows port 126 00:09:04,430 --> 00:09:06,250 for Postgres, but that might have been later. 127 00:09:06,650 --> 00:09:09,950 So maybe there's a few more steps of your involvement with Postgres. 128 00:09:10,430 --> 00:09:13,950 And I'm also not sure when you got to Redpill Linpro and when you started 129 00:09:16,170 --> 00:09:19,770 using Postgres in your day-to-day job that you get paid for. So 130 00:09:20,350 --> 00:09:22,090 don't let me jump ahead here. 131 00:09:22,150 --> 00:09:24,890 I kind of want to do this linearly if we can. 132 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,060 [MAGNUS] Right, so no, it's true that the timing isn't, we're not there quite yet, but 133 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:34,900 it started off sort of as a user. In fact, I had 134 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:40,180 a single, the first thing that I know, and I don't know when at this point, 135 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,660 my first actual sort of code contribution to Postgres 136 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,260 was a single line patch to a file somewhere around this time. 137 00:09:48,540 --> 00:09:53,700 I'm not entirely sure where. I don't have the email anymore, and not really knowing 138 00:09:54,380 --> 00:09:58,880 and understanding how communities worked, I just emailed it directly to one of the maintainers at 139 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:04,420 the time, who just applied it and done. And it does not carry my name. 140 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,440 So therefore, I don't remember exactly when that was. 141 00:10:08,860 --> 00:10:10,380 And it was at the time, you know, 142 00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:14,720 it was a one-line patch to make Postgres compile and work on Linux, 143 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,440 because all the developers at the time used BSD. 144 00:10:19,459 --> 00:10:23,079 And there was an include file that, I think the include file was in a different 145 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:25,620 directory or something like that when you wanted to build it on Linux. 146 00:10:27,340 --> 00:10:29,020 So that was the original, 147 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:32,540 the very first thing, and that was just to run it for sort of these side 148 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:33,880 projects. The 149 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,940 larger projects that I then got involved in later on was first 150 00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:41,540 actually the work on porting just the 151 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,360 Postgres client to Windows because I needed it. 152 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:48,510 [CLAIRE] And you needed it for what? 153 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:49,761 [MAGNUS] Right. 154 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,400 I needed it for one of my work projects where we had the database, and to 155 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:54,420 get it to the next stage, 156 00:10:55,500 --> 00:11:01,640 classic organization at the time, everybody ran Windows on their desktop machines, and I needed to 157 00:11:02,780 --> 00:11:05,740 get others to use the system, therefore it had to run on Windows. 158 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,900 And that was a relatively small project. Then a couple of years later, 159 00:11:12,580 --> 00:11:18,140 I got involved in the group together with Bruce Momjian and a guy named Claudio, 160 00:11:18,980 --> 00:11:24,520 who sadly, I think we never really saw after this project, but to port the 161 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:31,800 actual database server to Windows. That was my first really large project to get involved with 162 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:34,200 when it comes to development on Postgres. 163 00:11:36,910 --> 00:11:38,790 [CLAIRE] Okay, and did we skip any important steps? 164 00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:43,650 And actually, I want to wind back to that very first real use where 165 00:11:44,810 --> 00:11:48,950 you had a part-time job and you couldn't afford SQL Server or Oracle, and you wanted 166 00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:55,070 to use Postgres to address that problem. Do you remember what that was about? 167 00:11:55,230 --> 00:11:56,670 Do you remember what that itch was? 168 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:09,200 [MAGNUS] I think what mostly assets and users, having a centrally managing assets and users instead of 169 00:12:10,412 --> 00:12:11,392 copy pasting things. 170 00:12:13,732 --> 00:12:17,372 I think was so a very, really a very simple use case, but 171 00:12:17,852 --> 00:12:22,312 there were parts to it that really needed the concepts of transactions to be 172 00:12:22,992 --> 00:12:23,492 trustworthy. 173 00:12:30,060 --> 00:12:30,063 [CLAIRE] Got it. Okay. 174 00:12:30,060 --> 00:12:36,280 Then let's talk about the port a few years later with Bruce Momjian to port to 175 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:42,260 Windows. I don't know. I don't have a feel for how much time that took, 176 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,440 how big the scope was. Tell me more. 177 00:12:46,952 --> 00:12:48,432 [MAGNUS] I mean, I think particularly compared 178 00:12:49,332 --> 00:12:54,092 to typical Postgres projects of the time, it was one of the really big ones. Now, 179 00:12:55,132 --> 00:12:58,872 it came out in Postgres, what became Postgres 8.0, which had a couple of other 180 00:12:59,352 --> 00:13:04,612 really big things to it, like it's the first version that had point-in-time recovery and things 181 00:13:04,672 --> 00:13:10,272 like that, that were also sort of moving the project along into more of 182 00:13:11,352 --> 00:13:15,952 the ability to be used by actual company structures rather than hobbies. 183 00:13:16,772 --> 00:13:19,572 So I don't remember exactly. We probably spent— 184 00:13:20,632 --> 00:13:24,652 In total, it was probably over two years. I was not involved at the very beginning 185 00:13:25,592 --> 00:13:29,092 in some of it. In particular, this Claudio guy had done a lot of the work 186 00:13:30,172 --> 00:13:33,852 on some parts to it, but we also had the constraint that 187 00:13:35,112 --> 00:13:36,772 we had to do the port 188 00:13:38,752 --> 00:13:42,172 without affecting how Postgres worked anywhere else, 189 00:13:42,752 --> 00:13:48,332 and without making Postgres work completely different. For example, at the time, 190 00:13:49,592 --> 00:13:54,052 there was a Japanese version of Postgres that already ran natively on Windows, for example, and 191 00:13:54,272 --> 00:13:58,332 it used threads because Windows is natively threaded, 192 00:13:59,292 --> 00:14:03,272 and Postgres used processes, as it still does today, as everybody knows, right? 193 00:14:05,012 --> 00:14:07,532 So we had to write this whole sort of emulation, 194 00:14:07,992 --> 00:14:10,352 or not really emulation, but compatibility layer 195 00:14:11,092 --> 00:14:15,212 to make Postgres on Windows behave like Postgres on Unix. 196 00:14:17,272 --> 00:14:19,491 So for all sorts of different things. 197 00:14:20,792 --> 00:14:25,312 It was a large project. The interesting thing we had for it, it really was 198 00:14:25,892 --> 00:14:26,632 an efficient one, right? 199 00:14:26,692 --> 00:14:30,512 Because I am based in Europe, in Stockholm, right, and Bruce Momjian is on the east 200 00:14:30,572 --> 00:14:37,232 coast of the U.S., and Claudio is based in Australia. So we really had the overlapping-wise, 201 00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:35,280 [CLAIRE] Oh boy. 202 00:14:37,892 --> 00:14:41,512 [MAGNUS] sort of at one time of the day I got to talk to Claudio, at another 203 00:14:41,552 --> 00:14:42,232 time of the day 204 00:14:42,692 --> 00:14:45,552 Claudio got to talk to Bruce, and at the third time Bruce got to talk to 205 00:14:45,612 --> 00:14:47,532 me. But we never got to talk, 206 00:14:48,312 --> 00:14:51,792 all together, sort of at the same time, but it also meant we had 207 00:14:52,272 --> 00:14:53,732 somebody working on the project all the time. 208 00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:01,420 [CLAIRE] I organized a Postgres 19 hackers panel earlier this year 209 00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:05,680 to talk about the whole Postgres 19 development experience. 210 00:15:05,740 --> 00:15:07,980 And it was actually before things got dramatic, right? 211 00:15:07,980 --> 00:15:14,280 Because we recorded this back in early May or something like that. But the 212 00:15:14,860 --> 00:15:17,480 committers who were on the panel were Álvaro Herrera, 213 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,120 Heikki Linnakangas, Melanie Plageman, and Thomas Munro. 214 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:23,820 And so you know where those people live, right? 215 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,500 So we had someone in East Coast United States, someone in New Zealand, 216 00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:34,340 someone in Germany, and I think Heikki must have been in Finland, right? So 217 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,420 big time zone changes, and it was a challenge to find a time that could work 218 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:40,780 for everybody, and it was 219 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,640 super early in the morning for Thomas, but it was super late in the night for 220 00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:44,660 Álvaro and Heikki. 221 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:47,760 Time zones are a thing. 222 00:15:46,952 --> 00:15:47,832 [MAGNUS] Yep, I think that it's 223 00:15:48,892 --> 00:15:52,672 one thing that probably made that easier back when we did this, right, is 224 00:15:53,172 --> 00:15:57,352 when we say most of the communication was very asynchronous, right? 225 00:15:57,752 --> 00:16:00,592 It was email-based communication back in the time. Yes, there were 226 00:16:01,392 --> 00:16:06,612 some chats, but the majority of things were really emails back and forth, which 227 00:16:07,292 --> 00:16:10,492 works better when you're not actually around at the same time, 228 00:16:11,012 --> 00:16:12,292 because you have an expectation, right? 229 00:16:12,792 --> 00:16:16,092 Certainly, if you're sitting on a panel, you're sitting in a call, you expect everyone to 230 00:16:16,132 --> 00:16:20,152 be around right now. And if you're on a chat, you expect everyone to be around 231 00:16:20,852 --> 00:16:23,812 maybe almost right now. But with an email, 232 00:16:24,712 --> 00:16:29,352 you're phrasing, you're planning things out for people not to actually be around at exactly that 233 00:16:29,392 --> 00:16:29,592 time. 234 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,740 [CLAIRE] Do you find that you still appreciate that about the Postgres community? 235 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,760 It's almost like a follow the sun model. 236 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,160 The fact that you can send something and go to sleep and then wake up and 237 00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:46,720 there might be replies or forward progress. Is that still something you rely on? 238 00:16:48,632 --> 00:16:51,372 [MAGNUS] Not as much, I'd say. Not, I think we've all sort of, 239 00:16:52,172 --> 00:16:56,832 we've shifted along with the tools that are available now, but to some extent, yes. 240 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:02,280 [CLAIRE] All right, and then when you worked on the port 241 00:17:04,220 --> 00:17:07,100 to Windows of the actual database server. 242 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,500 Were you at Redpill Linpro yet, or did that come later? 243 00:17:11,612 --> 00:17:14,232 [MAGNUS] That came later. At this point, this was sort of a 244 00:17:16,932 --> 00:17:17,792 side job, that idea. 245 00:17:18,212 --> 00:17:21,632 I had, at this time, I had sort of the blessing of management to spend 246 00:17:22,152 --> 00:17:23,452 free time, otherwise not 247 00:17:24,052 --> 00:17:27,692 allocated to something I could spend on this, and other than that spend 248 00:17:28,612 --> 00:17:29,612 non-work time on it. 249 00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:37,780 [CLAIRE] Okay. When I look at your official LinkedIn profile, 250 00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:41,880 because you didn't have to submit a resume in order to be on the podcast, but 251 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:49,560 I did do a little bit of homework, and it looks like March 2008 was when, 252 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:56,100 I don't know, you got involved in probably creating the PostgreSQL Europe nonprofit foundation, 253 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,920 and it was also when you joined Redpill Linpro. 254 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:08,600 And so, and I think PGConf.EU didn't happen until the next year, at least not according 255 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,760 to LinkedIn. It says January 2009. In terms of 256 00:18:13,340 --> 00:18:17,940 becoming an organizer, obviously the event didn't happen in January, as far as I can remember. 257 00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:25,140 So clearly something happened in March 2008. There were a bunch of changes or 258 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:27,640 new initiatives in your life. 259 00:18:28,822 --> 00:18:33,462 [MAGNUS] Yeah, and I think if I'm correct, so the PostgreSQL Europe 260 00:18:34,882 --> 00:18:37,622 actual nonprofit organization was founded 261 00:18:38,382 --> 00:18:42,402 formally during the FOSDEM conference, which was in February. 262 00:18:45,282 --> 00:18:48,822 We had decided beforehand that we wanted to do it, but formally that's when we 263 00:18:49,542 --> 00:18:53,502 gathered, as you do to form a new organization, right, gather everybody into a room, 264 00:18:54,422 --> 00:18:58,142 agreed to do it, and held an in-person vote for the first board 265 00:18:58,702 --> 00:19:02,302 of directors at that point. So that was before I 266 00:19:03,182 --> 00:19:08,982 started at Redpill Linpro, or at the time we were just Redpill, but it was after 267 00:19:09,082 --> 00:19:10,102 I had decided to do so. 268 00:19:12,522 --> 00:19:20,502 So it was in that period. And then, let's see, PGConf.EU formally got started in 2009. 269 00:19:20,582 --> 00:19:28,342 In 2008, we had a European day at the Italian PGDay in Prato in Italy. 270 00:19:28,562 --> 00:19:29,982 So the day before, 271 00:19:31,122 --> 00:19:35,342 a group of us from the rest of Europe had basically decided to invade 272 00:19:36,462 --> 00:19:39,502 the Italian conference, because they foolishly announced it 273 00:19:40,502 --> 00:19:44,102 to the public list saying, hey, we're running a Postgres conference for one day over here. 274 00:19:44,442 --> 00:19:49,082 So we all decided to go, which surprised them. But then during that 275 00:19:49,582 --> 00:19:54,382 was when the discussions got started and, hey, can we do something across all of Europe? 276 00:19:55,042 --> 00:19:58,262 So the next year, in 2008, we had, 277 00:19:59,302 --> 00:20:02,542 they had a one-day Italian followed by a one-day European. 278 00:20:03,122 --> 00:20:05,542 So we did sort of a day attached to their conference 279 00:20:06,422 --> 00:20:10,522 in the summer of 2008, and then in 2009 is when we had the first 280 00:20:11,102 --> 00:20:13,002 dedicated European event. 281 00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:19,350 [CLAIRE] Now, I know that some people are really interested in history. 282 00:20:21,310 --> 00:20:25,150 I was lucky. I went to a university that didn't have core curriculum requirements, so I 283 00:20:25,650 --> 00:20:27,710 used to brag about how I was 284 00:20:28,250 --> 00:20:31,450 pleased with myself that I didn't take a single history class. 285 00:20:31,530 --> 00:20:34,730 And in hindsight, I regret that. But the point is, 286 00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:38,830 you gave a really interesting talk at the beginning of PGConf.EU 287 00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:45,270 this year, a couple of weeks ago in Valencia, and it was kind of your happy 288 00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:47,270 30th birthday talk. 289 00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:52,390 It was in your introduction to the whole event, and you did share some photos and 290 00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:59,110 some of the details about the early PGConf.EU days and everything you just described about that 291 00:20:59,150 --> 00:21:02,450 event in Italy. So my question is, was that recorded? 292 00:21:02,610 --> 00:21:06,110 Is that going to be published online at some point in the next month 293 00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:06,550 or so? 294 00:21:08,082 --> 00:21:13,902 [MAGNUS] I don't think so. We generally don't record and publish the opening and the closing, 295 00:21:15,162 --> 00:21:19,142 because usually the opening is just the practicalities. 296 00:21:20,802 --> 00:21:22,282 It doesn't normally have this. 297 00:21:22,730 --> 00:21:25,970 [CLAIRE] Yeah. Here's where you find the bathrooms, and here's where the coffee is. 298 00:21:25,902 --> 00:21:29,142 [MAGNUS] Yeah, exactly. Which is very important. Coffee and bathrooms are very important details, right? 299 00:21:29,542 --> 00:21:30,982 And that's not something worth recording. 300 00:21:33,310 --> 00:21:38,190 [CLAIRE] Oh, that's too bad because your intro this year was definitely worth recording, and I always 301 00:21:38,250 --> 00:21:40,190 love the recap, 302 00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:44,830 the thanks for all the fish session that you and Dave Page do at the very 303 00:21:44,910 --> 00:21:45,070 end. 304 00:21:45,410 --> 00:21:49,450 There's something about the two of you together and your sense of humor that make it 305 00:21:49,550 --> 00:21:49,870 fun. 306 00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:54,510 Maybe next year you can record those. 307 00:21:55,542 --> 00:21:58,722 [MAGNUS] Yep, and we'll see. Maybe there is something in the sort of 308 00:21:59,362 --> 00:22:02,982 the recordings that aren't matched to any presentations, if there's something we can extract from 309 00:22:03,002 --> 00:22:03,122 there. 310 00:22:04,210 --> 00:22:08,370 [CLAIRE] Or maybe at least upload your slides, because there were some cool photos in the slides 311 00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:08,930 that you shared. 312 00:22:09,142 --> 00:22:13,862 [MAGNUS] The photos were, I mean, credit where due, the photos were all in the closing slides. 313 00:22:14,082 --> 00:22:17,762 There were very— there was like a photo from an early 314 00:22:18,722 --> 00:22:19,922 PGConf.EU in my slides. 315 00:22:23,802 --> 00:22:26,842 The first appearance of the Slonik suit is the only one that I had there. 316 00:22:29,410 --> 00:22:34,850 [CLAIRE] All right, so a lot happened in 2008. There was this meeting at FOSDEM. You decide 317 00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:41,290 to form the nonprofit for PostgreSQL Europe that I think eventually leads to the 318 00:22:42,130 --> 00:22:48,030 creation of PGConf.EU, or at least—sorry about that—at least as a contributing factor. 319 00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:51,970 You join Redpill, not Redpill Linpro, but Redpill. 320 00:22:53,550 --> 00:22:55,330 Postgres is now more part of your life. 321 00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:58,053 Have you made any Postgres friends yet at that point? 322 00:23:03,122 --> 00:23:06,042 [MAGNUS] Maybe one or two. I mean, that's, yeah, a large group of 323 00:23:06,642 --> 00:23:09,162 friends over the years, some already from 324 00:23:10,682 --> 00:23:16,102 way before I started at Redpill. Obviously something like the 325 00:23:18,142 --> 00:23:19,882 Postgres Conference Europe, or just in general, 326 00:23:20,342 --> 00:23:24,082 Postgres conferences started in 2006, right, with the 327 00:23:25,102 --> 00:23:29,162 anniversary summit in Toronto, and that was really the first chance to meet 328 00:23:29,722 --> 00:23:31,202 with most people in person. 329 00:23:31,282 --> 00:23:35,902 I think before that I had met with Bruce Momjian and Dave Page, and that was 330 00:23:36,162 --> 00:23:38,062 it prior 331 00:23:39,962 --> 00:23:43,242 to this conference, and then sort of everybody started to pile on from there, 332 00:23:44,122 --> 00:23:48,022 because, you know, if you're making, it's a lot easier to make actual friends when you 333 00:23:48,062 --> 00:23:48,742 meet them in person. 334 00:23:49,870 --> 00:23:52,870 [CLAIRE] And wait, Dave Page and who? Did you say Bruce? 335 00:23:53,022 --> 00:23:54,102 [MAGNUS] Bruce Momjian. Yep. 336 00:23:54,210 --> 00:23:54,410 [CLAIRE] Okay. 337 00:23:55,690 --> 00:23:59,190 And when you say the anniversary summit, 2006, I'm just doing the math in my head. 338 00:23:59,270 --> 00:24:01,850 That's the 10-year anniversary summit, right? 339 00:24:03,422 --> 00:24:03,662 [MAGNUS] Yes. 340 00:24:04,450 --> 00:24:07,930 [CLAIRE] Yes. So 10 years from when the project was first open sourced. 341 00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:11,530 I saw some conflict out on the internet the other day about, 342 00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:13,890 because we've all been making a big deal 343 00:24:14,810 --> 00:24:18,530 this year that Postgres has turned 30, or it's the 30th birthday. 344 00:24:18,970 --> 00:24:24,510 And people don't always finish the sentence, that it's the 30th birthday of when the Postgres 345 00:24:25,210 --> 00:24:29,310 code was open sourced, right? When the open source project began. And so 346 00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:34,870 somebody who was involved in the technology earlier was like, wait a minute, it's actually 40. 347 00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:38,570 What are you guys talking about? And there was a little debate. 348 00:24:38,012 --> 00:24:41,112 [MAGNUS] Yeah, I'm not sure even that one is entirely correct, because at 349 00:24:42,012 --> 00:24:46,352 the code was still available open source in the Berkeley days before that, right? 350 00:24:46,432 --> 00:24:51,872 But it's the open source project was 10 years then and is 30 years now, right? 351 00:24:51,932 --> 00:24:56,132 It's when, and it's when it became PostgreSQL. 352 00:25:00,372 --> 00:25:03,972 Left what we refer to as Berkeley Postgres before then. 353 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,519 [CLAIRE] So the beautiful name PostgreSQL, which can be pronounced and spelled in multiple different ways. 354 00:25:12,212 --> 00:25:12,772 [MAGNUS] Oh yes. 355 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,380 [CLAIRE] I like the Tom Lane email where he's like, I think this is the worst mistake 356 00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:22,600 the project has ever made or something like that. 357 00:25:22,860 --> 00:25:24,500 I'll link to it in the show notes. 358 00:25:25,272 --> 00:25:27,492 [MAGNUS] Yeah, it's a good one, and, you know, 359 00:25:28,032 --> 00:25:32,072 if that is the biggest mistake we've ever made, which to a point I can agree 360 00:25:32,092 --> 00:25:37,552 with, I think that really does put us in a pretty good position, because it's 361 00:25:38,112 --> 00:25:41,472 an annoyance, and I'm sure it's actually, if you started to analyze what, 362 00:25:42,272 --> 00:25:44,372 you know, it's probably cost people because they created 363 00:25:44,892 --> 00:25:48,232 incorrect marketing materials and things like that. But in the great scheme of things, 364 00:25:48,812 --> 00:25:51,932 it's an annoyance rather than a massive problem. 365 00:25:52,552 --> 00:25:53,452 But it is an annoyance. 366 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,620 [CLAIRE] So, as I ask you all these questions, 367 00:25:58,540 --> 00:26:01,340 I think what I'm, the vibe I'm getting is that 368 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:08,520 there wasn't a single trigger that caused you overnight to become involved 369 00:26:09,540 --> 00:26:11,960 to a serious extent in the Postgres project. 370 00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:15,280 It kind of feels like it happened little by little over time. 371 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,220 Over a period of years, in fact. 372 00:26:20,012 --> 00:26:24,012 [MAGNUS] That is absolutely right. It's something that grew on me. Then obviously then in 2008, 373 00:26:24,872 --> 00:26:28,872 when I started for Redpill, that's when I got to work with it full time, and 374 00:26:28,912 --> 00:26:34,032 that changed the parameter some. But in other ways, it was just a continuation 375 00:26:35,052 --> 00:26:40,312 of that path because, yeah, definitely it was not a one event. 376 00:26:39,740 --> 00:26:45,740 [CLAIRE] And when you say work with it full time, my understanding of your work at Redpill, 377 00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:50,420 and, oh, you're going to have to correct me in this because I don't even know 378 00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:56,000 where I got this understanding from. But you are an advisor, a consultant. 379 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:02,380 You're deeply knowledgeable about how to use Postgres, what the features are, how to configure it, 380 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,540 what the challenges are, and so you help your customers 381 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:11,780 in their use of Postgres, whether that's on-prem or some of them presumably run in the 382 00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:14,200 cloud as well. Is that right? 383 00:27:15,452 --> 00:27:23,332 [MAGNUS] Yep, that's pretty much right. So Redpill Linpro is a traditional, if you will, the way 384 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,020 [CLAIRE] Oh, where'd I get that? 385 00:27:23,872 --> 00:27:27,952 [MAGNUS] traditional open source services company. So within the scope of Postgres, 386 00:27:28,952 --> 00:27:32,292 we do consulting, we do training, we do support agreements. 387 00:27:32,812 --> 00:27:36,112 We have people who can run your database for you if you, or if you run 388 00:27:36,152 --> 00:27:39,632 it on one of the big clouds, we have people who can help you do that, 389 00:27:40,332 --> 00:27:45,272 sort of all sorts of services packaged around Postgres. But we're fully, 390 00:27:45,852 --> 00:27:49,492 we don't have our own version of Postgres. We just use, 391 00:27:50,292 --> 00:27:57,412 you know, Postgres. And then, of course, the various cloud ways of running Postgres these days. 392 00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:05,540 [CLAIRE] So your day job involves Postgres and working with customers, and then you also 393 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:08,120 spend a lot of time contributing to the community. 394 00:28:08,260 --> 00:28:14,140 And I want to dive into your role on the nonprofit, PostgreSQL Europe, because 395 00:28:14,620 --> 00:28:16,920 you've been president of that for a very long time now. 396 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,840 Your work on conferences, which include PGConf.EU and also Nordic PGDay. 397 00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:24,260 We have to talk about Nordic. And then 398 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,160 we should also talk about your work on the infrastructure team. 399 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:31,820 And then the core team. Like I said, you wear a lot of hats. 400 00:28:32,672 --> 00:28:33,212 [MAGNUS] Too many hats. 401 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:35,040 [CLAIRE] Where do you want to start? 402 00:28:35,732 --> 00:28:36,392 [MAGNUS] Ah, pick one. 403 00:28:40,580 --> 00:28:41,660 [CLAIRE] Nordic PGDay. 404 00:28:44,232 --> 00:28:48,612 [MAGNUS] Right, so Nordic PGDay is, well, for those that don't know, that's one of these. 405 00:28:49,152 --> 00:28:52,192 We have them all around, particularly, I think, in Europe. 406 00:28:52,232 --> 00:28:55,332 We have a pattern of them, but like a single day 407 00:28:56,612 --> 00:29:02,712 focused event that is smaller, we're not trying to build a competitor to PGConf.EU, whatever. We 408 00:29:03,252 --> 00:29:05,352 have our PGConf.EU that is a big event 409 00:29:06,452 --> 00:29:10,872 across all of Europe, and then we have these local PGDays that attract, 410 00:29:11,752 --> 00:29:16,672 or try to attract, people who otherwise couldn't go, both because we come to them, 411 00:29:17,252 --> 00:29:21,452 we're closer to the people, and also it's a one-day thing, not a one-week thing. 412 00:29:21,612 --> 00:29:27,032 So for people who are maybe not full-time Postgresing, it's a lot easier to get approval 413 00:29:27,712 --> 00:29:31,212 from your boss to be allowed to go if it's a shorter event. So 414 00:29:32,192 --> 00:29:37,352 Nordic PGDay, we got started, I think it was 2014, so it has been a while 415 00:29:37,572 --> 00:29:43,052 now, that one as well. It was primarily was me and Daniel Gustafsson. 416 00:29:43,352 --> 00:29:46,472 It was one other guy who helped out named Claes Jakobsson. 417 00:29:47,172 --> 00:29:50,792 He hasn't really been involved in the organization past helping us 418 00:29:51,132 --> 00:29:52,592 getting it off the ground initially, so. 419 00:29:54,512 --> 00:29:55,472 We got that one started. 420 00:29:56,772 --> 00:30:00,392 We called it, we named it Nordic PGDay already from the first year. 421 00:30:00,452 --> 00:30:01,372 We had no idea 422 00:30:02,112 --> 00:30:05,072 what it was actually going to be, but we started it in Stockholm because we live 423 00:30:05,092 --> 00:30:11,652 in Stockholm. And we started booking a venue for 50 people, and we got about 100. 424 00:30:12,912 --> 00:30:16,572 So we had to expand as much as we could within said venue, which 425 00:30:17,152 --> 00:30:22,092 we learned later led to a pretty bad experience for some people because the venue really 426 00:30:22,412 --> 00:30:26,432 couldn't do 100 people well. But it sort of set the tone that, whoa, 427 00:30:27,072 --> 00:30:28,512 there is a real demand for this. 428 00:30:30,912 --> 00:30:34,572 So we decided on that. So we now continue to the point where we're running it 429 00:30:35,192 --> 00:30:42,152 across the four largest Nordic countries, which is we rotate between Stockholm, 430 00:30:43,012 --> 00:30:47,372 Copenhagen, Helsinki and Oslo, and we just go around, 431 00:30:49,072 --> 00:30:52,632 one year at each, so we come back every four years. 432 00:30:53,970 --> 00:30:57,850 [CLAIRE] Yeah, so I've had the privilege of speaking in Copenhagen. 433 00:30:58,010 --> 00:31:02,450 I think that was 2019, and Oslo in 2024. 434 00:31:04,210 --> 00:31:08,110 And I, the vibe at Nordic PGDay is just really fun. 435 00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:13,310 I think it's the perfect size, perhaps, right? Not so big to be overwhelming, 436 00:31:13,810 --> 00:31:16,090 but also much bigger than a meetup, 437 00:31:17,170 --> 00:31:20,690 with people from all over and not just the Nordics attending. 438 00:31:20,750 --> 00:31:24,270 Although I imagine the majority of people are from the Nordics. Am I right? 439 00:31:25,012 --> 00:31:27,332 [MAGNUS] The majority of the attendees are definitely from the Nordics. 440 00:31:28,292 --> 00:31:29,872 Every year we end up, or not every year, 441 00:31:30,352 --> 00:31:32,912 actually maybe every year, we end up in this little discussion of, well, 442 00:31:33,372 --> 00:31:35,532 you know, what about the Baltic countries? What about 443 00:31:36,212 --> 00:31:40,612 we got a lot of people from Estonia and Latvia, for example, as well. 444 00:31:40,712 --> 00:31:43,992 Aren't they the Nordics? And, you know, shouldn't we put the conference there? 445 00:31:44,612 --> 00:31:46,332 So there are a few things around that. 446 00:31:46,392 --> 00:31:48,732 But it's definitely the Nordic countries are the majority, 447 00:31:49,252 --> 00:31:52,912 get a fair amount of Germans, and I think a trick is also once you get 448 00:31:52,952 --> 00:31:53,952 to these sizes of 449 00:31:54,832 --> 00:31:58,172 a hundred or more you can attract. 450 00:31:58,212 --> 00:32:03,312 So even if the attendees are locals, it's still interesting for speakers to come in from 451 00:32:03,792 --> 00:32:08,432 all over Europe or, as you know, in some cases from the U.S., for example, 452 00:32:09,872 --> 00:32:13,712 to speak. That probably wouldn't happen if it was an event of 35 people. 453 00:32:15,330 --> 00:32:19,850 [CLAIRE] And you have, I think there's another organizer as well, Georgios Kokolatos, right? 454 00:32:20,632 --> 00:32:23,792 [MAGNUS] Yes, Georgios joined the organization a few years ago. 455 00:32:25,112 --> 00:32:28,892 Originally it was just me and Daniel, and then we realized that we need more people. 456 00:32:29,632 --> 00:32:34,032 And we've already worked with Georgios, so we started the classic, we pulled him in to 457 00:32:35,752 --> 00:32:36,912 be a volunteer, and then 458 00:32:37,372 --> 00:32:40,892 we promoted him to work more on the call for papers, and then we roped him 459 00:32:40,952 --> 00:32:43,272 in to be on the organization, and now he has no escape. 460 00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:52,150 [CLAIRE] So Daniel works at Microsoft, so he and I are connected through multiple... 461 00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:54,930 through the community as well as through our Microsoft work. 462 00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:58,729 And he was telling me the other day that you guys are doing something different with 463 00:32:58,770 --> 00:33:03,370 your sponsorships this year, which I think is really cool. So for sponsors who 464 00:33:03,870 --> 00:33:10,030 want to sponsor Nordic, they're also sponsoring a fall event that's in, is it Gothenburg? 465 00:33:10,130 --> 00:33:10,690 Is that right? 466 00:33:11,712 --> 00:33:16,692 [MAGNUS] Yes, this year we're doing a trial run. We'll see how well it works. 467 00:33:17,032 --> 00:33:19,912 Hopefully it does, because we've been discussing these: 468 00:33:20,432 --> 00:33:24,752 should we only go to the capital cities, you know, only Stockholm and Copenhagen and Oslo 469 00:33:24,812 --> 00:33:27,812 and whatever? What about the people who are in the 470 00:33:28,652 --> 00:33:32,732 sort of slightly smaller cities, but still big enough that we think we can draw a 471 00:33:32,772 --> 00:33:37,032 crowd? In Sweden, the obvious example there is Gothenburg. 472 00:33:37,732 --> 00:33:39,712 So we're trialing it in Sweden, where we're 473 00:33:40,292 --> 00:33:45,192 planning to run a smaller event there, and we're intentionally putting it half a year away 474 00:33:45,232 --> 00:33:50,152 or so, putting it in the fall. It'll be a smaller event in that the 475 00:33:50,772 --> 00:33:55,672 Stockholm event will have two tracks, the Gothenburg event will have a single track, so we're 476 00:33:56,472 --> 00:33:57,552 slimming it down a little bit. 477 00:33:58,112 --> 00:34:02,812 The Stockholm event has an exhibition hall with sponsors on site. The Gothenburg event 478 00:34:03,312 --> 00:34:06,992 will not have an exhibition. It'll just be the track, and there will be 479 00:34:08,132 --> 00:34:12,132 flyers and stickers and things from the sponsors and perhaps presentations, but 480 00:34:13,192 --> 00:34:18,332 a smaller one where we are hoping that that will be attractive enough to bring in 481 00:34:19,252 --> 00:34:21,692 people who otherwise would not come to Nordic PGDay. 482 00:34:22,332 --> 00:34:26,852 And if it's successful, we intend to continue this with doing sort of a primary and 483 00:34:26,872 --> 00:34:27,772 a secondary city 484 00:34:28,572 --> 00:34:29,792 in each of the Nordic countries. 485 00:34:32,490 --> 00:34:33,930 [CLAIRE] I don't know if you know this, but 486 00:34:34,830 --> 00:34:42,110 this model of having a single sponsorship that sponsors a main event plus some auxiliary—auxiliary, 487 00:34:42,290 --> 00:34:45,230 am I pronouncing that right? Auxiliary. I can't even say the word. 488 00:34:46,690 --> 00:34:54,130 Aux events, aux, that's something that PGConf India does as of, I guess, a year ago. 489 00:34:54,250 --> 00:35:01,410 So the sponsorships of PGConf India 2026 490 00:35:01,950 --> 00:35:08,690 include sponsoring the PG Pune one-day event and the Hyderabad Postgres Days two-day event. 491 00:35:09,149 --> 00:35:14,530 But it's a single sponsorship, and as sponsors go, that's really nice because it's less paperwork, 492 00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:21,330 it's less billing, it's less effort, and you get to reach people in three different places. 493 00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:24,710 So I actually, I'm hopeful that your experiment works out. 494 00:35:26,010 --> 00:35:28,270 And I know it seems to be working out for the India team. 495 00:35:29,052 --> 00:35:33,072 [MAGNUS] Yeah, I am too. I was not aware that the India team was doing it, 496 00:35:33,632 --> 00:35:36,492 but it certainly sounds like a smart thing to do. 497 00:35:36,532 --> 00:35:37,672 I think the trick is only to 498 00:35:40,332 --> 00:35:43,692 find the balance of what you're covering, right? There has been discussions about 499 00:35:44,592 --> 00:35:48,852 doing something across sort of all European conferences, because Nordic PGDay is 500 00:35:49,572 --> 00:35:54,032 formally organized by PostgreSQL Europe as well, as is the German conference, the 501 00:35:54,512 --> 00:36:01,832 Paris conference, the Lowlands conference, these are all actually organized by—UK as well—yeah, 502 00:35:57,610 --> 00:35:57,970 [CLAIRE] UK? 503 00:36:02,432 --> 00:36:07,852 [MAGNUS] they're organized by PostgreSQL Europe. UK is a little bit special. There is an actual, 504 00:36:08,592 --> 00:36:12,592 there is an events management company called Slonik Enterprises that actually runs it, 505 00:36:13,752 --> 00:36:17,892 but it's run by PostgreSQL Europe, and it's under that company because 506 00:36:18,352 --> 00:36:23,772 the UK is not in the European Union. So we need somewhere in that jurisdiction, right? 507 00:36:24,272 --> 00:36:28,392 Technically, Norway is also not in the European Union, but they're in 508 00:36:29,312 --> 00:36:31,372 whatever the abbreviation is for what they're in. 509 00:36:33,252 --> 00:36:37,912 They're closer ties than those. But the idea is, if you want to get 510 00:36:38,512 --> 00:36:42,712 a sponsorship that covers all of Europe, you're probably limiting the number of sponsors who are 511 00:36:42,772 --> 00:36:49,236 interested in that. Large companies like Microsoft as an example would probably still be interested. 512 00:36:50,656 --> 00:36:54,496 But a bunch of other companies might be, no, we are only interested in the French 513 00:36:54,576 --> 00:36:57,836 market or in the German market, for example, and they wouldn't want to 514 00:36:58,416 --> 00:37:00,916 go in across all of Europe. But our idea here is, well, 515 00:37:01,456 --> 00:37:03,056 we're focusing on the Nordics. 516 00:37:05,156 --> 00:37:08,656 If I would say it's unlikely that a sponsor would be interested 517 00:37:09,176 --> 00:37:13,396 in Stockholm but not Gothenburg. These are so close together, both 518 00:37:14,556 --> 00:37:17,216 business-wise and geographically, that it just makes sense. 519 00:37:19,534 --> 00:37:21,054 [CLAIRE] All right. So 520 00:37:22,434 --> 00:37:26,894 since we're on the topic of conferences, the natural place to go is talk about the 521 00:37:26,934 --> 00:37:28,933 PostgreSQL Europe nonprofit and 522 00:37:29,454 --> 00:37:34,394 PGConf.EU, which you've been an organizer of for as many years as I can remember. 523 00:37:34,754 --> 00:37:35,894 But actually, I want to pivot. 524 00:37:36,094 --> 00:37:39,454 I don't want to do that because some people who are listening 525 00:37:39,954 --> 00:37:43,894 are big fans of these conferences, and they could listen to us talk about it for 526 00:37:43,934 --> 00:37:44,234 an hour. 527 00:37:44,594 --> 00:37:48,954 But there might be other people listening who would be more interested in the work that 528 00:37:49,014 --> 00:37:50,774 you do on infrastructure, 529 00:37:51,554 --> 00:37:57,794 which I don't even think people realize how much of the infrastructure that runs the Postgres 530 00:37:57,874 --> 00:38:00,814 organization is self-managed. 531 00:38:01,514 --> 00:38:04,374 And, you know, some people probably don't even realize that 532 00:38:05,254 --> 00:38:07,614 our source code isn't developed in GitHub. 533 00:38:07,694 --> 00:38:11,634 There's a GitHub mirror, but it's not developed in GitHub. So, I don't know. 534 00:38:11,674 --> 00:38:12,834 Talk to us about infrastructure. 535 00:38:15,296 --> 00:38:17,836 [MAGNUS] I think it's one of those things, yeah. A lot of people don't realize 536 00:38:19,296 --> 00:38:22,496 how much there is to it, and a lot of them don't realize, 537 00:38:23,296 --> 00:38:27,716 in some cases I think also not why it's not done, right? And I think it's, 538 00:38:28,576 --> 00:38:30,716 I mean, it's a separate discussion on exactly 539 00:38:31,316 --> 00:38:38,456 the development models, but the Postgres project has always been self-hosted since it left Berkeley. 540 00:38:40,976 --> 00:38:45,316 It was originally on a bunch of machines that were sponsored by Marc Fournier, who was 541 00:38:45,356 --> 00:38:52,656 one of the original core team, the original group of people when the project left Berkeley. 542 00:38:53,516 --> 00:38:57,096 He had a hosting business, so he sponsored with 543 00:38:57,596 --> 00:39:01,416 some virtual machines basically for the project to run its stuff on, and ever since then 544 00:39:02,076 --> 00:39:03,277 it has been running self-hosted. 545 00:39:05,496 --> 00:39:07,656 The reason for it, I mean, there are numerous reasons. 546 00:39:07,956 --> 00:39:11,216 I still vividly remember the days when we were told 547 00:39:11,696 --> 00:39:16,476 in no uncertain terms that the project was completely doomed unless we immediately moved to 548 00:39:16,516 --> 00:39:20,736 SourceForge, because everybody forever would only ever be using SourceForge. 549 00:39:22,536 --> 00:39:24,396 And we all know what happened to that. 550 00:39:25,494 --> 00:39:30,314 [CLAIRE] Well, I imagine there's a bunch of people listening who've never even heard of SourceForge, so. 551 00:39:31,016 --> 00:39:33,556 [MAGNUS] They were, I mean, they were sort of, I guess they were the GitHub of the 552 00:39:33,596 --> 00:39:36,496 time, and then they never got to the point of 553 00:39:37,256 --> 00:39:41,916 being successful enough, so they started being ads, more and more ads. 554 00:39:41,976 --> 00:39:47,896 At some point they started injecting ads in the downloads from projects and things like that. 555 00:39:48,056 --> 00:39:50,856 So people, you know, there was an exodus and— 556 00:39:51,956 --> 00:39:54,476 There were issues with, well, where do we go now? There 557 00:39:55,036 --> 00:39:58,596 have been other projects, like, well, our hosting went away, what are we going to do, 558 00:39:58,736 --> 00:40:02,996 kind of thing. And the central Postgres project has always felt that 559 00:40:03,576 --> 00:40:05,536 they wanted to be in control 560 00:40:06,756 --> 00:40:13,036 of those things. Now, as you say, we have a GitHub mirror today. There are discussions 561 00:40:13,596 --> 00:40:17,956 that always around people saying, well, why don't we use the GitHub workflow for development, which 562 00:40:18,016 --> 00:40:21,576 is in a lot of ways a different question, right? You could do both, 563 00:40:22,476 --> 00:40:27,156 but the core thing that the project has wanted is the control, the ownership 564 00:40:28,816 --> 00:40:29,936 of the problem, if you will. 565 00:40:31,916 --> 00:40:36,096 We've had a few things that have not been running on the infrastructure, and most of 566 00:40:36,136 --> 00:40:38,816 them have at some point or other started causing problems. 567 00:40:40,236 --> 00:40:45,506 I think when it comes to things like GitHub, for example, today, we're probably—they're not going 568 00:40:45,506 --> 00:40:45,976 to go away. 569 00:40:47,496 --> 00:40:52,976 But we have had cases, so all the infrastructure for Postgres is obviously sponsored by someone. 570 00:40:54,696 --> 00:40:57,156 Hosting is given to us for free in different places. 571 00:40:57,656 --> 00:41:01,776 And we had, was it two years ago, we had one of our large providers suddenly 572 00:41:01,836 --> 00:41:02,615 exited the market. 573 00:41:03,536 --> 00:41:07,256 And we're like, you have a couple of months, and then everything gets powered off. 574 00:41:09,796 --> 00:41:14,756 But given that we ran our own things on them, we could migrate everything 575 00:41:15,516 --> 00:41:16,456 to hosting elsewhere, 576 00:41:19,236 --> 00:41:21,076 which is the reason for doing it. 577 00:41:21,316 --> 00:41:25,316 If a provider goes away, we as the project are still in control 578 00:41:25,896 --> 00:41:27,096 of our own fate, so to speak. 579 00:41:31,994 --> 00:41:36,994 [CLAIRE] And you're hosting, you're managing the infrastructure that sits behind the mailing lists, right? 580 00:41:37,154 --> 00:41:38,754 Which means you're dealing with mail servers. 581 00:41:39,796 --> 00:41:40,296 [MAGNUS] Oh yeah, that's 582 00:41:41,696 --> 00:41:42,796 one of the least fun parts. 583 00:41:45,896 --> 00:41:50,976 Mail is hard, but the things we have are working pretty well. 584 00:41:51,136 --> 00:41:56,376 There are obvious usability issues to email at the volumes that 585 00:41:56,896 --> 00:42:02,016 many of our mailing lists are dealing with today. But technically, the delivery 586 00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:05,656 is working pretty well. So yeah, there is, 587 00:42:06,136 --> 00:42:10,176 we got everything from mailing lists, obviously the websites and the downloads and 588 00:42:11,836 --> 00:42:16,776 you know, there is a wiki, there are conference management systems, there's all sorts of stuff. 589 00:42:18,114 --> 00:42:21,854 [CLAIRE] I mean, so I'm looking at a slide that I created 590 00:42:22,694 --> 00:42:28,334 in collaboration with Daniel Gustafsson for PGConf.EU last year, where I talked about all the 591 00:42:28,394 --> 00:42:32,754 contributions behind the Postgres 18 major release. And 592 00:42:33,914 --> 00:42:37,474 the title of it is, Who serves on the sysadmin team? 593 00:42:37,534 --> 00:42:40,914 And I think that's, is that what we're talking about when we talk about project infrastructure? 594 00:42:41,374 --> 00:42:43,414 It's the sysadmin team. Am I right? 595 00:42:43,416 --> 00:42:44,376 [MAGNUS] Yes. Yes. 596 00:42:44,614 --> 00:42:50,114 [CLAIRE] Okay, and I don't know if there's been turnover in the team, but the people on 597 00:42:50,154 --> 00:42:56,094 that team a year ago were yourself, Álvaro Herrera, Stefan Kaltenbrunner, 598 00:42:56,674 --> 00:43:00,194 Dave Page, Joe Conway, Christophe Pettus, and Yogesh Sharma. Is it? 599 00:43:01,014 --> 00:43:02,894 Has it's probably, maybe it's changed. 600 00:43:03,666 --> 00:43:04,346 [MAGNUS] It has not. 601 00:43:04,014 --> 00:43:04,634 [CLAIRE] Or is that about? 602 00:43:05,314 --> 00:43:06,694 Okay, so that's about right. 603 00:43:06,366 --> 00:43:10,386 [MAGNUS] But that must have been, that would have been rather soon after Yogesh 604 00:43:11,046 --> 00:43:14,366 was added to the team. He's the latest addition to the team. 605 00:43:15,274 --> 00:43:18,154 [CLAIRE] Okay, yeah, that was October 2025. And then 606 00:43:19,154 --> 00:43:24,034 obviously the PostgreSQL.org website, I have a whole list of all of the different sites, 607 00:43:24,534 --> 00:43:30,414 the mailing list infrastructure, PostgreSQL.org email, because I guess all the committers, 608 00:43:30,874 --> 00:43:35,034 right, have an email address on PostgreSQL.org and the board members and things like that. 609 00:43:35,894 --> 00:43:37,994 The Git mirror, the Commitfest 610 00:43:38,814 --> 00:43:44,614 subdomain, the buildfarm subdomain, Babel, which is for the error message translations, right? 611 00:43:45,114 --> 00:43:45,834 And then the wiki. 612 00:43:46,814 --> 00:43:54,314 So, and maybe there's more. Maybe those are just the majority, the most visible sites and 613 00:43:54,854 --> 00:43:59,194 domains and subdomains that I put on my slide. Tell me, is there more? 614 00:43:58,526 --> 00:44:04,666 [MAGNUS] Yep, I think that's right. That's the top of the iceberg, right? Yeah, I mean, 615 00:44:05,146 --> 00:44:08,806 even, for example, the downloads, where 616 00:44:10,686 --> 00:44:15,826 the Postgres infrastructure itself hosts obviously the Postgres source code itself, and also 617 00:44:16,846 --> 00:44:22,706 all the apt, so apt for Debian, Ubuntu, and things like that, and the RPMs for 618 00:44:23,366 --> 00:44:26,586 Red Hat and Fedora and SUSE. All of these are 619 00:44:27,366 --> 00:44:28,866 hosted by us to make sure that 620 00:44:30,146 --> 00:44:34,206 they're always available and that nobody injects ads into our installers. 621 00:44:35,246 --> 00:44:39,906 The big exception is the Windows installers, which are hosted by EnterpriseDB at this point. 622 00:44:42,766 --> 00:44:47,466 But everything else is hosted there. And then the support, for example, the 623 00:44:49,466 --> 00:44:54,646 management systems for different conferences around the world. We run a bunch of those for, 624 00:44:55,146 --> 00:45:00,586 we run for PostgreSQL Europe, obviously, but for Postgres US, for the group in Canada, etc. 625 00:45:02,234 --> 00:45:05,834 [CLAIRE] Yeah, I love the user interface improvements that have been, 626 00:45:06,314 --> 00:45:11,174 that you guys have been making to the conference websites in the last couple of years. 627 00:45:13,054 --> 00:45:14,614 It's really been nice, so. 628 00:45:15,526 --> 00:45:17,666 [MAGNUS] They are, they, let's say they're great, aren't they? 629 00:45:17,746 --> 00:45:20,986 That's what happens when you find somebody not me who does it, 630 00:45:22,066 --> 00:45:23,586 who does a way better job than me. 631 00:45:24,494 --> 00:45:27,614 [CLAIRE] Is that somebody Chris Ellis? Is that, has he been involved in that? 632 00:45:27,986 --> 00:45:29,726 [MAGNUS] A lot of the ones in Europe have been Chris Ellis, 633 00:45:30,586 --> 00:45:36,146 but if you look, for example, at the Canadian conference, it's Kaiting who's doing that. 634 00:45:36,646 --> 00:45:42,446 So there's different people in different places. I don't actually know who does the U.S. 635 00:45:42,506 --> 00:45:44,886 ones these days, but the point being, 636 00:45:45,526 --> 00:45:49,606 you should do what you're good at, and graphical design or something, that is not what 637 00:45:49,666 --> 00:45:52,426 I'm good at. So I'm very glad to leave that to others. 638 00:45:54,834 --> 00:45:58,474 [CLAIRE] I will include in the show notes a link to a talk that you gave, speaking 639 00:45:58,494 --> 00:46:05,114 of the Canadian conference, at PGConf.dev 2025, which is that annual 640 00:46:05,794 --> 00:46:08,174 development conference that brings together 641 00:46:08,934 --> 00:46:14,314 contributors, community members, committers from all over the world once a year. And 642 00:46:15,354 --> 00:46:20,074 people tend to commiserate on the release that is kind of getting to feature freeze and 643 00:46:20,474 --> 00:46:22,674 also start to collaborate on the next release, right? 644 00:46:23,074 --> 00:46:28,654 Anyway, you gave a talk, and it was called "postgresql.org: The hidden parts," and I 645 00:46:29,894 --> 00:46:35,214 really enjoyed it because you explained, like you're starting to hear, but you went even deeper 646 00:46:35,614 --> 00:46:39,674 into why we do this. Because people sometimes scratch their heads and, like, 647 00:46:41,234 --> 00:46:44,334 why are you incurring that headache? Why don't you let the management 648 00:46:44,814 --> 00:46:48,614 of the infrastructure be someone else's problem? Why don't you put it in the cloud? 649 00:46:49,014 --> 00:46:52,314 And so you talked about the why, and you also kind of shined a light on 650 00:46:52,374 --> 00:46:53,714 all the work that's involved and— 651 00:46:54,714 --> 00:46:58,494 You probably also said, if any of you want to help, feel free to contact me. 652 00:47:00,334 --> 00:47:02,514 So it's a good talk, and I will link to it. 653 00:47:03,306 --> 00:47:03,586 [MAGNUS] Thank you. 654 00:47:06,194 --> 00:47:11,454 [CLAIRE] All right, so we should probably switch gears from infrastructure, except, 655 00:47:12,534 --> 00:47:16,414 I don't know, have there been any particularly exciting stories in the infrastructure space in the 656 00:47:16,434 --> 00:47:18,114 last couple of months that you want to share? 657 00:47:19,146 --> 00:47:23,466 [MAGNUS] Not really. A lot of the things that are happening there are now are battling 658 00:47:24,166 --> 00:47:26,206 AI agents that are 659 00:47:27,566 --> 00:47:31,226 basically, overloading pretty much everything on the entire internet 660 00:47:32,186 --> 00:47:35,306 and flooding everything everywhere. So a lot of 661 00:47:35,766 --> 00:47:39,006 our sort of some of our site systems that are really just for Postgres, 662 00:47:39,526 --> 00:47:41,426 like our buildfarm, for example, has 663 00:47:42,546 --> 00:47:45,366 done just fine until AI agents showed up, and suddenly 664 00:47:46,026 --> 00:47:50,406 you need to optimize it in a whole different way because they're 665 00:47:51,286 --> 00:47:57,386 not following the rules. You put these, the good old robots.txt that you'd put on a 666 00:47:57,926 --> 00:48:00,926 site to tell search engines what they're allowed to do and what they're not allowed to 667 00:48:00,966 --> 00:48:01,106 do. 668 00:48:02,246 --> 00:48:06,206 None of the AI systems care about that. So now you need 669 00:48:07,186 --> 00:48:10,766 to put more defenses in place for a bunch of these things. And unfortunately, 670 00:48:11,386 --> 00:48:15,266 that's what a lot of the work has been around recently. 671 00:48:17,994 --> 00:48:23,194 [CLAIRE] Yeah, I feel like that that's an evolving space though, because obviously the AI agents can 672 00:48:23,254 --> 00:48:23,614 also 673 00:48:24,374 --> 00:48:31,234 help people, right? Access information that was difficult to access previously. And so 674 00:48:32,654 --> 00:48:36,254 I just feel like we're in this in-between state where 675 00:48:37,194 --> 00:48:40,674 they were—it was like the wild west, and it's going to have to be a little 676 00:48:40,694 --> 00:48:45,114 bit more controlled so the people managing the infrastructure don't suffer, 677 00:48:45,574 --> 00:48:50,114 but also so people who need access to data can get it more efficiently. Am I— 678 00:48:51,754 --> 00:48:54,774 Would you disagree? Is that too Pollyanna of a perspective? 679 00:48:56,446 --> 00:48:59,926 [MAGNUS] No, no, I think you're right. In general, some of this is just, 680 00:49:00,466 --> 00:49:04,546 yeah, nobody looked at the data before, or very few people looked at the data before, 681 00:49:05,246 --> 00:49:08,106 and more people are looking at the data now, and in that regard 682 00:49:09,442 --> 00:49:10,622 it's probably a positive, right? 683 00:49:10,742 --> 00:49:15,422 Once you manage to actually deliver it, but as you say, more people get access to 684 00:49:15,462 --> 00:49:20,302 the information and can do more things with it, and that part is definitely a positive. 685 00:49:21,422 --> 00:49:25,262 But sometimes it's the how it's done that 686 00:49:27,622 --> 00:49:30,242 needs to be a little bit more polished, or I say, a little bit less wild 687 00:49:30,302 --> 00:49:30,622 west. 688 00:49:33,104 --> 00:49:34,084 [CLAIRE] Okay, so let's switch gears. 689 00:49:35,704 --> 00:49:40,644 From infrastructure then, since I was fishing for some dramatic story and doesn't sound like there 690 00:49:41,244 --> 00:49:43,144 is one at the top of your head right now, 691 00:49:44,064 --> 00:49:46,443 besides, like you said, the onslaught of AI agents. 692 00:49:47,844 --> 00:49:52,984 PostgreSQL Europe, the nonprofit, which you've been involved with since 2008. 693 00:49:54,044 --> 00:49:58,244 So coming up on 20 years, what's that like? 694 00:49:58,604 --> 00:50:02,284 How much of your time does it take? Do you enjoy it? Is it, 695 00:50:03,784 --> 00:50:07,744 clearly it's making a difference. You've presided over, 696 00:50:10,264 --> 00:50:13,624 not that PostgreSQL Europe gets all the credit, but there's been a lot of growth to 697 00:50:13,664 --> 00:50:16,384 the Postgres technology in that time frame, for sure. 698 00:50:16,824 --> 00:50:20,204 And PGConf.EU has grown dramatically, as have all these 699 00:50:20,944 --> 00:50:21,644 other events. 700 00:50:23,202 --> 00:50:27,342 [MAGNUS] Yeah, it certainly has. And, yeah, it's a very different world. When we started it, 701 00:50:27,962 --> 00:50:31,702 then I don't think we could have ever imagined things like we'd put on 702 00:50:32,862 --> 00:50:35,682 a conference for 750 people over four days, 703 00:50:36,382 --> 00:50:39,722 and with budgets that were counting into the hundreds of thousands of euros. 704 00:50:41,182 --> 00:50:45,302 That is not what we were thinking when we were sitting outside the city wall in 705 00:50:45,342 --> 00:50:51,522 Prato, where the local Linux user group had a bar in the middle of the wall, 706 00:50:52,942 --> 00:50:56,062 that when we just sat around and said, hey, we should start a nonprofit and start 707 00:50:56,102 --> 00:50:59,842 doing this, right? I don't think any one of us would have expected that. 708 00:50:59,882 --> 00:51:01,582 So the growth has been tremendous. 709 00:51:03,782 --> 00:51:08,802 At the level of PostgreSQL Europe itself, sort of at the core, it's kind of the 710 00:51:08,862 --> 00:51:11,222 same as when we talk about the Postgres core team, which is 711 00:51:12,442 --> 00:51:18,642 we mostly do the boring stuff, right? Doing PGConf.EU, doing Nordic PGDay, that's fun. 712 00:51:19,422 --> 00:51:23,802 That's the good stuff, but that is not necessarily, that's just something that 713 00:51:24,442 --> 00:51:26,542 PostgreSQL Europe is there to facilitate. 714 00:51:28,282 --> 00:51:30,902 Now, it is our flagship event, and a lot of the people, 715 00:51:31,402 --> 00:51:32,762 or I would say all of the people on the 716 00:51:33,362 --> 00:51:38,842 PostgreSQL Europe board are also involved in it. But it is mostly a separate thing. 717 00:51:38,942 --> 00:51:40,322 So when it comes to 718 00:51:41,082 --> 00:51:46,182 PGConf.EU, some of the most important things that PostgreSQL Europe does is 719 00:51:47,502 --> 00:51:51,802 say no, sadly, but, you know, make sure that the budget is maintained, make sure that 720 00:51:51,822 --> 00:51:55,602 we're not missing on formalities, make sure that we're following 721 00:51:56,142 --> 00:51:59,562 the rules as necessary, that contracts are signed the way they should be. 722 00:52:00,202 --> 00:52:03,942 All of that stuff is really mostly about facilitation. 723 00:52:09,064 --> 00:52:13,804 [CLAIRE] You say that conferences are fun, organizing conferences, presumably, and that that's the good 724 00:52:13,904 --> 00:52:14,204 stuff. 725 00:52:16,004 --> 00:52:20,944 I am not an organizer of PGConf.EU, clearly, but I'm a sponsor, 726 00:52:21,404 --> 00:52:27,164 and I was a speaker and a community member, and that's three hats. You obviously wear 727 00:52:27,664 --> 00:52:31,584 at least four hats, maybe five or six at the event. 728 00:52:31,904 --> 00:52:34,284 Were you as exhausted as I was at the end of it? 729 00:52:36,162 --> 00:52:36,402 [MAGNUS] Yes. 730 00:52:38,562 --> 00:52:39,502 I think that's very simple. 731 00:52:39,842 --> 00:52:44,702 No, it's, I mean, it's, yeah, that one week, obviously, it's also the lead up to 732 00:52:44,782 --> 00:52:48,402 it gets exponentially more and more as you get closer. 733 00:52:50,802 --> 00:52:51,602 Yeah, it's a 734 00:52:54,042 --> 00:52:56,102 heavy week, but it's also very satisfying. 735 00:53:00,124 --> 00:53:00,125 [CLAIRE] Yeah. 736 00:53:00,124 --> 00:53:05,504 And I assume you're doing a lot of reflection and post-postmorteming or retrospectives and things 737 00:53:05,524 --> 00:53:06,264 like that right now 738 00:53:06,804 --> 00:53:07,044 to capture the memories of what you want to do differently next year before you forget. 739 00:53:15,082 --> 00:53:18,742 [MAGNUS] Yep, yeah, we're just getting into that part of stuff. We're collecting the 740 00:53:19,762 --> 00:53:24,502 feedback from the attendees who've been there and from ourselves, from the whole team, 741 00:53:25,261 --> 00:53:28,882 because there obviously there were some things that didn't go 742 00:53:29,942 --> 00:53:35,062 as expected, and as I usually try to tell people, our job as the organizers then 743 00:53:35,102 --> 00:53:39,142 is to make sure that attendees and sponsors and whatever don't notice, 744 00:53:40,242 --> 00:53:41,602 that you sort of take care of it. 745 00:53:41,682 --> 00:53:47,282 But there are obviously things in our organization that needs improvements or updates as we go 746 00:53:47,382 --> 00:53:51,742 because, yeah, all sorts of retrospectives out of different 747 00:53:52,742 --> 00:53:54,402 aspects to it that need to be done 748 00:53:55,082 --> 00:53:57,302 so that we can get ready to start moving on the next year. 749 00:53:58,544 --> 00:54:04,744 [CLAIRE] So for anybody who's listening and is unfamiliar, PGConf.EU is an annual Postgres 750 00:54:05,604 --> 00:54:07,664 user and developer 751 00:54:08,844 --> 00:54:14,484 and contributor and community member conference, it's people of all types of involvement with 752 00:54:15,244 --> 00:54:21,704 Postgres, and it moves around. So it's in a different country and city every year. 753 00:54:22,104 --> 00:54:25,304 And this past year, a couple weeks ago, it was in, 754 00:54:26,264 --> 00:54:27,544 oh my gosh, a week and a half ago. 755 00:54:28,284 --> 00:54:30,104 No, two weeks ago, it was in Valencia, Spain. 756 00:54:30,984 --> 00:54:36,024 But the previous year it was in Latvia, in Riga, and before that it was Athens, 757 00:54:36,124 --> 00:54:39,904 Greece, and before that it was Berlin. Am I right? 758 00:54:40,644 --> 00:54:41,324 Berlin, Germany. 759 00:54:42,222 --> 00:54:42,482 [MAGNUS] Prague. 760 00:54:42,744 --> 00:54:47,244 [CLAIRE] Prague. Oh, I can't forget Prague. And it's almost always in October. 761 00:54:47,384 --> 00:54:52,324 Prague, that particular year, 2023, it was in December, but that's a whole other story. 762 00:54:53,664 --> 00:54:58,784 What's really cool is I remember there was a group of friends who 763 00:54:59,424 --> 00:55:00,244 came by our booth. 764 00:55:00,404 --> 00:55:04,524 I think this was last year, and they had met at a previous PGConf.EU. 765 00:55:05,184 --> 00:55:10,184 And they make a point—they, prior to that, they were strangers—and they make a point of 766 00:55:10,244 --> 00:55:15,504 coming to PGConf.EU every year, partly to learn about the technology, partly to see each other, 767 00:55:16,444 --> 00:55:21,904 and partly to see a new part of Europe. So it's really got a positive vibe, 768 00:55:22,488 --> 00:55:26,868 and it's been growing year over year. I think you had, what, 747 769 00:55:27,928 --> 00:55:29,348 attendees this year, is that right? 770 00:55:32,452 --> 00:55:32,892 [MAGNUS] Yep. That's correct. 771 00:55:33,408 --> 00:55:36,028 [CLAIRE] So, anyway, if you haven't gone yet, you should go. 772 00:55:36,192 --> 00:55:40,752 [MAGNUS] It's been going a little up and down recently, and COVID obviously made some impacts on, 773 00:55:40,952 --> 00:55:44,612 I mean, not just obviously the two years when we didn't do anything because of COVID, 774 00:55:45,012 --> 00:55:49,092 but it also sort of put a little notch in the line 775 00:55:49,952 --> 00:55:54,072 after as well before we realized that, yes, people are actually still interested 776 00:55:54,672 --> 00:55:57,992 in going to these events, so we should keep doing them. 777 00:56:00,368 --> 00:56:04,768 [CLAIRE] Yeah, and obviously part of the value are the talks and the speakers and everything that 778 00:56:04,808 --> 00:56:05,448 you can learn there. 779 00:56:05,548 --> 00:56:09,168 But the other part of the value is in the hallway track and the people you 780 00:56:09,228 --> 00:56:14,168 meet, the friendships you make. And, you know, sometimes people find jobs, 781 00:56:15,028 --> 00:56:17,188 or they don't realize they're finding a job. 782 00:56:17,228 --> 00:56:22,188 They're meeting someone who years later that manifests itself into a job opportunity. So 783 00:56:23,428 --> 00:56:24,528 it's definitely good networking. 784 00:56:26,988 --> 00:56:28,548 And you have not yet announced. 785 00:56:28,588 --> 00:56:32,068 You're not going to announce on today's show where next year's PGConf.EU is, are you? 786 00:56:32,428 --> 00:56:32,888 Or are you? 787 00:56:33,092 --> 00:56:33,612 [MAGNUS] No, I'm not. 788 00:56:34,768 --> 00:56:38,308 [CLAIRE] Oh, that would be so cool. We should have talked about that beforehand. 789 00:56:39,408 --> 00:56:40,588 That could have been amazing. 790 00:56:41,768 --> 00:56:41,928 Oh, okay. 791 00:56:42,212 --> 00:56:44,552 [MAGNUS] Yep, but no. Sorry. 792 00:56:44,368 --> 00:56:44,548 [CLAIRE] Okay. 793 00:56:45,628 --> 00:56:49,488 So, and the reason you're not announcing it yet, presumably, is because you don't announce until 794 00:56:49,548 --> 00:56:51,948 you've signed the contracts, right? 795 00:56:52,612 --> 00:56:57,092 [MAGNUS] Correct. We've made that mistake once and announced it without having signed a contract, 796 00:56:57,592 --> 00:56:59,432 and then it turns out we didn't have a contract, 797 00:57:00,152 --> 00:57:03,692 and we had to change to a different place, not just a different venue, but a 798 00:57:03,712 --> 00:57:04,312 different city, 799 00:57:05,192 --> 00:57:10,372 which causes all sorts of problems for people who might already be planning. 800 00:57:11,252 --> 00:57:12,792 Some people start planning their travel 801 00:57:14,152 --> 00:57:15,512 immediately as we announce. 802 00:57:17,028 --> 00:57:17,988 [CLAIRE] Yeah, for sure. 803 00:57:18,048 --> 00:57:21,168 Or at least they put it on their family calendars to make sure they don't get 804 00:57:21,788 --> 00:57:23,568 double booked. Same with their work calendars. 805 00:57:24,892 --> 00:57:29,652 [MAGNUS] Yeah, and in some cases even to the point of, oh, I'm figuring out how I'm 806 00:57:29,672 --> 00:57:30,212 going to get there. 807 00:57:30,212 --> 00:57:32,672 You know, I'm going to take the train, I'm going to fly, I'm going to drive, 808 00:57:33,592 --> 00:57:35,132 getting all that sorts of planning in 809 00:57:37,372 --> 00:57:41,752 pretty early on. So, yeah, we want to make sure that once we announce, we know 810 00:57:42,232 --> 00:57:43,692 that it's going to happen then and there. 811 00:57:46,628 --> 00:57:47,028 [CLAIRE] Okay. 812 00:57:47,828 --> 00:57:52,228 So one of the questions I didn't prepare you for—well, just so people know, I don't 813 00:57:52,268 --> 00:57:54,028 prepare you for most of the questions. 814 00:57:54,108 --> 00:57:56,428 I think I shared a handful of them beforehand, but 815 00:57:56,928 --> 00:58:00,188 I never really know what I'm going to ask until we get in the conversation. 816 00:58:00,548 --> 00:58:03,168 But I am really curious if 817 00:58:03,888 --> 00:58:08,528 you feel like there was a lucky break somewhere along the way 818 00:58:09,108 --> 00:58:12,348 with your work on Postgres or with Postgres. 819 00:58:14,508 --> 00:58:15,488 Was there a moment 820 00:58:16,788 --> 00:58:19,148 where you look back and think, thank goodness? 821 00:58:22,232 --> 00:58:22,872 [MAGNUS] It's a good question. 822 00:58:22,912 --> 00:58:25,772 I mean, I think, if anything, I think it was when I took the 823 00:58:26,912 --> 00:58:28,412 step to actually work 824 00:58:29,592 --> 00:58:33,852 with Postgres as my primary job, right? Not just as a user, but 825 00:58:34,472 --> 00:58:35,852 getting into the space of 826 00:58:37,172 --> 00:58:41,492 Postgres services and working full time on it. Prior to that, it had been as— 827 00:58:41,548 --> 00:58:42,168 [CLAIRE] At Redpill. 828 00:58:42,432 --> 00:58:44,712 [MAGNUS] Yes, correct, that Redpill. Prior to that, it had been 829 00:58:46,472 --> 00:58:48,952 as a user part-time and as a hobby on the side, right? 830 00:58:48,992 --> 00:58:50,452 And that's when it really became 831 00:58:51,232 --> 00:58:54,872 a job as well, and I mean, yeah, it's being allowed to 832 00:58:56,112 --> 00:58:58,932 have your job be your hobby, or your hobby be your job. 833 00:59:00,872 --> 00:59:02,152 That's pretty sweet. 834 00:59:06,208 --> 00:59:07,388 [CLAIRE] Okay. I think I had a lucky break. 835 00:59:08,748 --> 00:59:13,608 Boriss Mejías was telling me that he wants me to be a guest on this podcast. 836 00:59:14,428 --> 00:59:16,268 Excuse me, on this podcast at some point. 837 00:59:16,868 --> 00:59:20,728 And so maybe I'll save my lucky break story for when that happens. 838 00:59:25,108 --> 00:59:28,628 I find sometimes, when I think about the Tom Lane episode 839 00:59:29,248 --> 00:59:34,148 and his story about how he got involved with software and then with databases. 840 00:59:35,988 --> 00:59:37,848 You know, there was a lucky break there. 841 00:59:38,088 --> 00:59:40,528 There was a professor coming up to him and saying, hey, 842 00:59:41,128 --> 00:59:45,008 you know, I think you should take this, was it a research assistant job? 843 00:59:45,668 --> 00:59:47,568 I'll have to go back and look it up in the transcript. 844 00:59:48,228 --> 00:59:51,188 And you're good at it, and you should do it. 845 00:59:51,228 --> 00:59:55,008 And his choice was doing that or flipping burgers as a part-time job. And so he 846 00:59:55,888 --> 00:59:59,228 took the job with the department, and he was still in university at the time. 847 00:59:59,268 --> 01:00:00,488 And thank goodness, right? 848 01:00:01,148 --> 01:00:03,668 That was a lucky break for him, but it's also a lucky break for the rest 849 01:00:03,708 --> 01:00:04,008 of us. 850 01:00:04,512 --> 01:00:06,452 [MAGNUS] Oh yeah. Most certainly a lucky break for the rest of us, yeah. 851 01:00:07,568 --> 01:00:11,428 [CLAIRE] Yeah. And what I take away from that is that 852 01:00:12,308 --> 01:00:15,888 sometimes when opportunities come upon you, you should say yes. 853 01:00:16,408 --> 01:00:19,328 There's always a million reasons to say no, but, 854 01:00:19,888 --> 01:00:22,888 you know, because you don't know what's going to happen, but you should say yes. 855 01:00:24,208 --> 01:00:31,328 Okay, so one of the questions that Melanie Plageman often asks when she thinks about the 856 01:00:31,788 --> 01:00:35,888 Postgres community and how it's evolving and growing 857 01:00:36,528 --> 01:00:43,008 is she'll ask, What makes you keep coming back? Obviously, there's a lot of work involved, 858 01:00:43,508 --> 01:00:51,028 right? A lot of challenges. Not everything's easy, and you don't have to do these things. 859 01:00:51,408 --> 01:00:54,048 You don't have to serve on the PostgreSQL Europe Foundation. 860 01:00:54,448 --> 01:01:01,328 You don't have to continue to organize Nordic or continue to be an organizer of PGConf.EU. 861 01:01:01,588 --> 01:01:03,128 The core team you could step down on. 862 01:01:03,488 --> 01:01:07,668 You're doing all these things, the infrastructure work, oh my goodness, what makes you keep coming 863 01:01:07,868 --> 01:01:08,208 back? 864 01:01:11,092 --> 01:01:13,032 [MAGNUS] I mean, at the biggest level, the people. 865 01:01:15,252 --> 01:01:17,332 It's really, that's the main thing. 866 01:01:17,412 --> 01:01:21,512 Again, lots of, I've made a lot of friends over the years, but also the learning, 867 01:01:21,872 --> 01:01:23,012 there are so many 868 01:01:24,288 --> 01:01:29,108 skilled people that are getting engaged in this project that you can still 869 01:01:29,928 --> 01:01:31,208 learn from these people every day. 870 01:01:43,268 --> 01:01:44,328 And I think the project has always been good at being willing to share. 871 01:01:44,568 --> 01:01:47,488 Well, the project, the people of the project have been good at being able to share, 872 01:01:48,208 --> 01:01:51,828 or willing to share their knowledge with others in the group. 873 01:01:56,998 --> 01:01:58,718 [CLAIRE] If you were getting started in Postgres today, 874 01:01:59,738 --> 01:02:03,258 say you're early in your career, or maybe in the middle of your career, but looking 875 01:02:03,278 --> 01:02:07,658 to make a pivot. Would you take the same path that you did? 876 01:02:08,898 --> 01:02:09,518 And what I'm really 877 01:02:10,378 --> 01:02:14,978 curious about, as you answer that question of would you take the same path, is what 878 01:02:15,278 --> 01:02:18,538 do you think is easier for new people now, and what do you think is harder? 879 01:02:21,648 --> 01:02:25,188 [MAGNUS] It's certainly, I mean, going to that, it's certainly harder today. 880 01:02:26,328 --> 01:02:28,788 It's certainly harder today to become a Postgres committer than it used to be. 881 01:02:30,298 --> 01:02:30,738 [CLAIRE] For sure. 882 01:02:31,628 --> 01:02:32,828 [MAGNUS] The bar is higher now, 883 01:02:34,548 --> 01:02:36,008 and that has been 884 01:02:36,908 --> 01:02:39,028 climbing for a long time, I think. 885 01:02:41,268 --> 01:02:44,568 To some extent, maybe the bar is too high, but it's also 886 01:02:45,328 --> 01:02:50,908 Postgres has the needs, the requirements on the system are higher today because of how it's 887 01:02:50,928 --> 01:02:55,808 being used. It is certainly not a hobby project in any shape or form anymore. 888 01:02:57,428 --> 01:03:02,668 So the needs are higher, I feel also both on committers and developers in general. 889 01:03:03,068 --> 01:03:04,728 Back when it started, nobody 890 01:03:05,428 --> 01:03:06,928 was working full-time on Postgres. 891 01:03:08,528 --> 01:03:13,348 Now, a lot of people are working full-time with the development of Postgres, which sometimes can 892 01:03:14,008 --> 01:03:19,828 be a friction for other developers who are not, right? And it's because there's 893 01:03:21,768 --> 01:03:25,608 a different paces through a process by different people, which 894 01:03:26,568 --> 01:03:27,908 was a smaller problem then. 895 01:03:28,028 --> 01:03:31,968 It certainly existed back then too, but it was a smaller problem then because nobody had 896 01:03:32,588 --> 01:03:35,468 the resources to do things full time. 897 01:03:35,588 --> 01:03:41,868 So I think that's certainly under the harder slash easier division between them. 898 01:03:42,328 --> 01:03:46,988 As for the path in, I still generally think it's a good path in. 899 01:03:47,868 --> 01:03:49,208 You know, start as a user 900 01:03:49,788 --> 01:03:53,068 and then move on towards being a developer to a certain extent, at least, 901 01:03:53,668 --> 01:03:56,968 because you come in there with a good understanding 902 01:03:57,768 --> 01:04:00,728 of what it's like to use your product, I think. 903 01:04:01,848 --> 01:04:05,748 If you're just like, if you've ever your entire career has been, 904 01:04:06,428 --> 01:04:10,548 I've been a database developer. I've just moved between different databases, for example. 905 01:04:10,628 --> 01:04:15,468 That's a different aspect. But if you've never been a user of a database, that 906 01:04:15,508 --> 01:04:18,148 gives you a different kind of perspective as well. So I think 907 01:04:19,188 --> 01:04:23,308 going that path is still a very valid way, whereas some other things are just 908 01:04:24,388 --> 01:04:28,708 complex enough that you kind of have to do them all the time to get there. 909 01:04:31,858 --> 01:04:36,458 [CLAIRE] I completely agree with the empathy that you get if you start as a user and 910 01:04:36,518 --> 01:04:38,258 then move toward being a developer. 911 01:04:40,178 --> 01:04:44,818 What I'm curious about is there are obviously a bazillion Postgres users out there. 912 01:04:45,238 --> 01:04:49,098 Now, some of them are app devs who are maybe not as 913 01:04:50,718 --> 01:04:54,498 into the weeds or paying attention to the mechanics of what's happening under the covers of 914 01:04:54,538 --> 01:04:57,838 Postgres, right? And some are, right? It just varies. 915 01:04:59,178 --> 01:05:01,058 But in any event, there's a lot of users. 916 01:05:02,618 --> 01:05:06,458 Do you have any advice for how they move toward being a developer? 917 01:05:07,278 --> 01:05:11,578 And I ask this because I met someone who was an app developer at PGConf.EU, and 918 01:05:11,638 --> 01:05:13,938 he's trying to chart that path and figure out... 919 01:05:14,938 --> 01:05:18,578 You know, where do I go? What do I look at? What do I do? 920 01:05:18,678 --> 01:05:19,738 How do I prove myself? 921 01:05:21,338 --> 01:05:24,058 And yes, he already knew about the Postgres 922 01:05:24,958 --> 01:05:31,498 hackers Discord that Robert Haas and folks started, gosh, over two years ago now, it feels 923 01:05:31,538 --> 01:05:37,298 like. And so, and there are monthly hacking workshops 924 01:05:37,918 --> 01:05:41,718 that exist on that Discord that get organized. 925 01:05:42,058 --> 01:05:45,738 So we knew about that, but I'm curious what other advice you would offer somebody. 926 01:05:46,048 --> 01:05:48,628 [MAGNUS] Yeah, I was going to say I was going to point to that, or the, not 927 01:05:48,668 --> 01:05:52,808 necessarily, I mean, sure, it happens to be on Discord, but the important part being the 928 01:05:53,588 --> 01:06:00,248 sort of workshop and the mentorship for new developers in there, because it's hard 929 01:06:01,708 --> 01:06:05,708 to find a way to break through the noise, basically. 930 01:06:07,168 --> 01:06:09,528 There are so many contributions coming in all the time, right? 931 01:06:09,588 --> 01:06:11,168 There are so many patches being sent 932 01:06:12,788 --> 01:06:17,828 that how do you get someone interested in yours, right? Because we know 933 01:06:18,288 --> 01:06:21,748 that it's not a great thing to build this massive patch and just send it in 934 01:06:21,788 --> 01:06:24,708 and say, hey, here you go. That never works. 935 01:06:25,008 --> 01:06:29,488 But how do you work your way to that point? And it's really, 936 01:06:30,168 --> 01:06:32,888 I think to be successful there, you have to catch the interest 937 01:06:33,568 --> 01:06:35,148 of a senior developer somewhere. 938 01:06:35,208 --> 01:06:38,728 It doesn't have to be a committer, but it has to be a senior developer, and 939 01:06:39,928 --> 01:06:43,648 that's the hard part, and I think that's a— 940 01:06:43,888 --> 01:06:45,328 That's not even a tool. 941 01:06:45,548 --> 01:06:48,968 Some people will say it's because, you know, oh, you have to know how to send 942 01:06:49,028 --> 01:06:52,848 email to do it. And I mean, yes, you do, 943 01:06:53,648 --> 01:06:54,908 but I don't think that's really the core. 944 01:06:54,968 --> 01:06:58,868 The core of the problem is just the massive volume. There is so much. 945 01:06:58,988 --> 01:07:01,308 How do you make someone interested in it? And these 946 01:07:02,348 --> 01:07:04,688 workshops and things, I think, are a good way, or— 947 01:07:06,868 --> 01:07:10,048 Sad to say, are they coming to events and interacting with 948 01:07:10,948 --> 01:07:15,228 those senior developers at events, and I say I'm sad only in the way that 949 01:07:15,828 --> 01:07:19,008 I wish that wasn't a requirement. It's not a requirement, but I think it helps 950 01:07:20,028 --> 01:07:21,388 because then you can explain 951 01:07:22,268 --> 01:07:25,668 in person and get somebody on the inside to be 952 01:07:26,448 --> 01:07:28,148 interested in the topic that you're working on. 953 01:07:31,590 --> 01:07:36,070 [CLAIRE] I ask these questions with an agenda, of course, which is one of the reasons that 954 01:07:36,230 --> 01:07:40,050 I produce, along with Aaron Wislang, my co-producer, thank you, 955 01:07:40,810 --> 01:07:45,310 this podcast every month, is I'm trying to give people 956 01:07:45,790 --> 01:07:53,170 who are tomorrow's future potential committers, tomorrow's future major contributors, a glimpse 957 01:07:53,770 --> 01:07:59,330 backstage into how people got involved and how they do their work and how they think 958 01:07:59,410 --> 01:08:03,850 about Postgres. So, but I'm also interested in offering people 959 01:08:04,730 --> 01:08:07,530 just suggestions and tips and things they should do. 960 01:08:09,010 --> 01:08:11,390 And I do think that Hackers Discord is a good 961 01:08:11,930 --> 01:08:14,690 place to start, and we'll include a link to it in the show notes. 962 01:08:16,230 --> 01:08:20,530 The other thing that I thought was really cool is I learned this from Tomas Vondra. 963 01:08:21,230 --> 01:08:27,710 There are a number of major contributors and committers who have started having public office hours 964 01:08:28,470 --> 01:08:31,470 that any developer can sign up to, 965 01:08:32,230 --> 01:08:36,150 and, you know, ask questions. And for some people 966 01:08:36,930 --> 01:08:41,410 it's a little nerve-wracking to think about pushing something out there on the mailing list, subject 967 01:08:41,450 --> 01:08:45,690 to a lot of scrutiny and a lot of potential criticism from the get-go. And 968 01:08:46,670 --> 01:08:48,610 they like that kind of one-on-one 969 01:08:49,470 --> 01:08:54,690 opportunity to get feedback before they push it out there to a broader audience. So 970 01:08:55,250 --> 01:08:56,170 I thought that was pretty cool. 971 01:08:56,778 --> 01:09:01,238 [MAGNUS] Yeah, I think that's a great idea and same as these workshops, it's a chance to 972 01:09:02,478 --> 01:09:07,558 get started in a smaller group, get a little bit more focused attention 973 01:09:11,258 --> 01:09:13,938 in between them. So yeah, I think these are great initiatives. 974 01:09:15,098 --> 01:09:18,438 I think another thing that is also worth mentioning in 975 01:09:20,858 --> 01:09:20,958 the 976 01:09:23,258 --> 01:09:27,278 environments of today is don't just 977 01:09:28,018 --> 01:09:30,238 have an AI agent write your patch and send it in. 978 01:09:30,958 --> 01:09:33,938 No, when people who are reviewing the patches look at it, 979 01:09:34,938 --> 01:09:37,458 they see that's the case, or in the first dialogue. 980 01:09:38,378 --> 01:09:40,818 They realize that's the case and they're going to lose interest. 981 01:09:42,678 --> 01:09:46,398 You can certainly use an AI agent as a tool as you're developing your patch, 982 01:09:47,778 --> 01:09:49,458 but you're the one who is developing the patch. 983 01:09:49,638 --> 01:09:53,238 You are the one who interacts with the reviewers who are going to take a look 984 01:09:53,258 --> 01:09:54,438 at your patch and things like that. 985 01:09:56,218 --> 01:09:59,798 And I think you don't want to put yourself in a position where 986 01:10:00,458 --> 01:10:03,718 the senior developers, as soon as they see a patch come in from you, like, oh, 987 01:10:04,158 --> 01:10:06,898 yeah, I don't want to review something that Claude wrote. 988 01:10:09,618 --> 01:10:13,258 It's a tool, but you've got to do your part as well, and don't 989 01:10:14,358 --> 01:10:20,658 sort of lock yourself out of this very creative and very efficient review feedback loop 990 01:10:21,678 --> 01:10:25,058 by more or less scaring off the people from being interested. 991 01:10:27,770 --> 01:10:31,630 [CLAIRE] Yeah. Which is especially true because you need those people in order to get anything committed. 992 01:10:31,870 --> 01:10:34,030 So you have to be earning their trust. 993 01:10:35,590 --> 01:10:39,990 I mean, it's amazing what the AI agents can do these days if we 994 01:10:42,210 --> 01:10:45,650 could go back in time to a year ago and then fast forward to now, we'd 995 01:10:45,690 --> 01:10:51,090 be shocked, right? They are so capable. And yet there are still mistakes. 996 01:10:52,330 --> 01:10:55,920 If you ask the wrong question, give the right guidance, set the wrong requirement, you're going 997 01:10:55,920 --> 01:11:00,670 to have a different result, and it's not the result that you want. So I think 998 01:11:01,690 --> 01:11:04,470 what I try to get people to do is, at the end of the day, you're 999 01:11:04,530 --> 01:11:08,110 still accountable for your work product. And whether you have 1000 01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:12,710 another person you're collaborating with or an agent you're collaborating with, you're still 1001 01:11:12,750 --> 01:11:16,030 responsible. And that's— 1002 01:11:17,670 --> 01:11:20,310 That's something that I think people are still adjusting to. 1003 01:11:21,710 --> 01:11:23,670 You know, it's very tempting to just— 1004 01:11:22,198 --> 01:11:23,798 [MAGNUS] Yep, and I think that's, yeah. 1005 01:11:25,198 --> 01:11:27,578 I think that's exactly the point. It's a great tool. 1006 01:11:27,998 --> 01:11:29,458 It is amazing what it can do, 1007 01:11:30,498 --> 01:11:34,658 but as with all tools, you got to use it right. And you can't just abdicate 1008 01:11:35,478 --> 01:11:40,998 from responsibility that you are the one who's doing this. It's a tool for you. 1009 01:11:41,078 --> 01:11:42,558 It's not an entity of its own. 1010 01:11:44,750 --> 01:11:46,349 [CLAIRE] So back to office hours for a second. 1011 01:11:46,610 --> 01:11:48,909 Do you hold them, or have you thought about it, 1012 01:11:49,390 --> 01:11:52,590 or are you still thinking about it, or it's not for you? 1013 01:11:53,750 --> 01:11:54,370 Four choices. 1014 01:11:55,038 --> 01:11:59,398 [MAGNUS] I don't. Yeah, I don't at this point. I think it would fit badly. 1015 01:11:59,518 --> 01:12:04,418 It would be difficult for me to fit that into how I work, because 1016 01:12:06,158 --> 01:12:07,618 I can't really set aside 1017 01:12:08,558 --> 01:12:12,378 a specific time saying, hey, now this is the time when I'm doing community stuff. 1018 01:12:13,138 --> 01:12:16,638 Other than I set aside the week of PGConf.EU and a few things like that. 1019 01:12:16,698 --> 01:12:17,858 But other than that, it's more, 1020 01:12:18,678 --> 01:12:22,818 you know, oh, if a customer case comes up, if they have to do a workshop 1021 01:12:22,838 --> 01:12:27,418 or a training with a customer or something, it would become too unpredictable, and I'm not 1022 01:12:28,238 --> 01:12:30,038 in general, as involved in the 1023 01:12:30,518 --> 01:12:36,758 code development—anywhere near as involved in the code development as I was some time ago, 1024 01:12:37,238 --> 01:12:44,918 I'm more involved in trying to facilitate the code development by processes and by 1025 01:12:45,638 --> 01:12:48,118 the infrastructure being one example and things like that. So 1026 01:12:48,918 --> 01:12:51,918 my focus has changed a bit like that. But I'm very glad that 1027 01:12:52,578 --> 01:12:56,378 several of our senior developers are doing it because I agree it is very useful. 1028 01:12:58,930 --> 01:13:06,050 [CLAIRE] Yeah, and unlike in a company with a software product that maybe is more proprietary, 1029 01:13:06,830 --> 01:13:12,610 there are managers, there are recruiters, there are people who are hiring and focused on how 1030 01:13:12,630 --> 01:13:15,810 do we grow the team and how do we have a mixture of senior and junior 1031 01:13:15,850 --> 01:13:21,550 and who's mentoring who and, right, there's that whole layer of trying to grow the people 1032 01:13:21,630 --> 01:13:25,290 organization. And I think the challenge in an open source project is 1033 01:13:26,170 --> 01:13:26,790 there aren't 1034 01:13:27,450 --> 01:13:29,230 people whose exact jobs 1035 01:13:29,970 --> 01:13:33,650 exist to do the recruiting or to do the managing, the hiring. 1036 01:13:33,910 --> 01:13:36,790 There are leaders for sure, and you're one of them, right? 1037 01:13:38,070 --> 01:13:42,870 And, you know, the leaders, the existing committers, you all think about who 1038 01:13:43,950 --> 01:13:46,902 to invite to become committers in the future, right? 1039 01:13:47,162 --> 01:13:50,882 So there's a whole process that's kind of behind the scenes for that, but— 1040 01:13:53,282 --> 01:13:55,302 It is a little different in an open source project 1041 01:13:56,702 --> 01:13:59,682 to help nurture the next generation, so. 1042 01:14:01,888 --> 01:14:02,948 [MAGNUS] Yeah, I'd say it's very different. 1043 01:14:02,102 --> 01:14:02,342 [CLAIRE] I don't know. 1044 01:14:06,468 --> 01:14:09,928 [MAGNUS] It's, but yeah, it's, as I say, there's nobody actively, you're, 1045 01:14:10,748 --> 01:14:16,708 you've got job applicants, but you've got nobody actually recruiting, and the decision process is 1046 01:14:17,708 --> 01:14:20,288 hard. And that can often be, and certainly if you're 1047 01:14:21,168 --> 01:14:24,228 on the receiving side of it, but also if you're on the delivering side, that it 1048 01:14:24,268 --> 01:14:28,688 can be frustrating and, like, why can't someone just make a decision? 1049 01:14:29,468 --> 01:14:30,848 Why can't we just do this? 1050 01:14:35,008 --> 01:14:37,548 But in the end, it turns out often to be, 1051 01:14:38,248 --> 01:14:39,728 we often, I often hear people say, 1052 01:14:40,328 --> 01:14:42,668 why can't the core team just go in and make this decision? 1053 01:14:43,128 --> 01:14:46,588 And everybody thinks that's a great idea as long as the decision is the one they'd 1054 01:14:46,628 --> 01:14:47,268 like it to be. 1055 01:14:49,428 --> 01:14:52,428 But if it would be the other way, they would instead go 1056 01:14:52,908 --> 01:14:55,188 the core team should not make any decisions at all. 1057 01:14:59,328 --> 01:15:03,108 But the flip side of it is sometimes we have, as a community, we have a 1058 01:15:03,168 --> 01:15:04,748 really hard time making decisions. 1059 01:15:08,262 --> 01:15:11,362 [CLAIRE] Well, I think there's a lot of effort to align 1060 01:15:12,002 --> 01:15:16,602 people. And not to say that all decisions are consensus, because they're not, right? Clearly. 1061 01:15:17,022 --> 01:15:21,622 And clearly, the decisions to commit or not commit are definitely not consensus, right? 1062 01:15:24,182 --> 01:15:26,822 Yeah, there is definitely an effort to align because, 1063 01:15:27,482 --> 01:15:29,822 you know, you piss too many people off, you're never going to be able to get 1064 01:15:29,842 --> 01:15:30,522 anything done. 1065 01:15:31,548 --> 01:15:33,548 [MAGNUS] Yeah, no, I mean that's it, and we have the, 1066 01:15:34,228 --> 01:15:38,228 on the committer side, yeah, it's to a point, it's up to every individual committer to 1067 01:15:39,408 --> 01:15:43,008 make the final call. Is this something that I want to commit? Because you 1068 01:15:43,668 --> 01:15:45,728 are then stuck with the responsibility for this thing. 1069 01:15:47,868 --> 01:15:53,248 Right, that's the motivating factor to only commit it if you actually believe in it. 1070 01:15:56,108 --> 01:16:00,028 But it also can mean that as a contributor, you can end up 1071 01:16:01,768 --> 01:16:06,868 with nobody, everybody wants your thing, but nobody wants to own it. 1072 01:16:07,388 --> 01:16:09,028 Nobody wants to take responsibility 1073 01:16:09,768 --> 01:16:10,208 for it, 1074 01:16:13,888 --> 01:16:17,188 which is tricky. Or people want your thing, they just want it in a different way. 1075 01:16:21,482 --> 01:16:28,902 [CLAIRE] Okay, before we wrap today, I wanted to open the door to throw out CFPs, which 1076 01:16:29,602 --> 01:16:33,282 some people say it stands for call for papers, and that makes no sense to me 1077 01:16:33,362 --> 01:16:35,182 because we're talking about talk proposals here. 1078 01:16:35,282 --> 01:16:40,142 So as far as I'm concerned, it means call for proposals. But anyway, Postgres 1079 01:16:40,682 --> 01:16:46,122 community conference CFPs that are open right now that are on your radar. 1080 01:16:48,182 --> 01:16:49,822 Are there any? Because I have a list. 1081 01:16:48,348 --> 01:16:52,748 [MAGNUS] Oh, yeah, certainly. I'm not going to say 1082 01:16:53,668 --> 01:16:57,328 SCaLE because it closed yesterday, I think, or maybe the day before yesterday. 1083 01:16:58,908 --> 01:17:02,168 I panicked on Saturday thinking that it closed the last of October, 1084 01:17:03,488 --> 01:17:05,248 and then realizing it actually closed on Sunday. 1085 01:17:06,588 --> 01:17:09,808 Plus, I get nine extra hours because they close on Pacific time. 1086 01:17:11,768 --> 01:17:13,308 So I got that one good. But right now, 1087 01:17:13,808 --> 01:17:15,988 open call for papers are certainly the FOSDEM 1088 01:17:18,208 --> 01:17:18,728 conference. 1089 01:17:19,802 --> 01:17:23,482 [CLAIRE] FOSDEM PGDay, the CFP will close on December 1st, 1090 01:17:24,042 --> 01:17:28,902 and the PostgreSQL devroom at FOSDEM closes on November 28th. Isn't that weird? 1091 01:17:29,122 --> 01:17:30,002 They're different dates. 1092 01:17:30,228 --> 01:17:33,128 [MAGNUS] Oh, see, I should know these things. I thought they closed on the same date. 1093 01:17:33,982 --> 01:17:34,622 [CLAIRE] They don't. 1094 01:17:35,068 --> 01:17:36,448 [MAGNUS] I'm sure there is a good reason for it. 1095 01:17:37,168 --> 01:17:41,408 The interaction with the FOSDEM, like FOSDEM, the central conference, has 1096 01:17:42,028 --> 01:17:45,388 certain requirements on the devroom, so it's probably to align with that. 1097 01:17:46,488 --> 01:17:49,408 I know there has been a bunch of discussion, but it could be. 1098 01:17:50,948 --> 01:17:56,628 Yeah, I thought they were on the same day. So I guess 1099 01:17:57,188 --> 01:17:59,648 we both have to look that up after the event. 1100 01:18:00,602 --> 01:18:05,422 [CLAIRE] I looked it up before, but let's assume that it's November 28th. Just 1101 01:18:05,942 --> 01:18:10,582 submit early, submit often. Don't cut. I know so many people wait till the last day, 1102 01:18:11,102 --> 01:18:13,502 but that's risky, especially if you get the time zone wrong. 1103 01:18:16,068 --> 01:18:20,908 [MAGNUS] No, you're right. I, yeah, there it is, it is the 28th. 1104 01:18:21,148 --> 01:18:22,268 I had to look it up real quick. 1105 01:18:22,402 --> 01:18:23,182 [CLAIRE] For the devroom. 1106 01:18:23,868 --> 01:18:30,128 [MAGNUS] For the devroom, I don't remember why they're different, but they are. So those would be 1107 01:18:31,608 --> 01:18:35,468 the big, the Canada event in Montreal, PGConf.dev is open. 1108 01:18:38,662 --> 01:18:42,542 [CLAIRE] I have another one to recommend, which is the Nordic PGDay CFP 1109 01:18:43,082 --> 01:18:44,402 and the deadline for that. 1110 01:18:44,468 --> 01:18:45,228 [MAGNUS] But it's not open. 1111 01:18:45,542 --> 01:18:45,762 [CLAIRE] What? 1112 01:18:48,362 --> 01:18:49,402 Are you really? 1113 01:18:50,088 --> 01:18:52,428 [MAGNUS] It opens on the 16th of November. 1114 01:18:53,688 --> 01:18:56,348 So Nordic PGDay is not actually open. 1115 01:18:57,948 --> 01:18:59,568 Otherwise it would be on my list. 1116 01:18:59,422 --> 01:19:01,402 [CLAIRE] You know what's really funny? This shows you 1117 01:19:02,902 --> 01:19:05,842 how people scan. I went to the CFP page. 1118 01:19:06,442 --> 01:19:10,562 At the bottom of the first paragraph, it says November 16th, and I'm like, okay, that's 1119 01:19:10,602 --> 01:19:15,502 the deadline. But no, that's the opening date. Okay then. All right. 1120 01:19:16,588 --> 01:19:21,228 [MAGNUS] PostgreSQL Europe right now only has FOSDEM PGDay open right now. 1121 01:19:22,228 --> 01:19:26,308 We will hopefully open, I mean, with Nordic opening pretty soon, I would expect 1122 01:19:27,588 --> 01:19:32,848 the German conference, it's typically around May, also to open their call for papers fairly soon. 1123 01:19:33,548 --> 01:19:35,368 I don't know if we have a date for it yet. 1124 01:19:37,988 --> 01:19:40,228 So, but right now everyone can focus on FOSDEM, 1125 01:19:42,128 --> 01:19:42,848 and PGConf.dev. 1126 01:19:43,722 --> 01:19:51,502 [CLAIRE] I was going to say, PGConf.dev, its CFP close date is January 12th. And then 1127 01:19:52,162 --> 01:19:56,302 very soon, in the next couple of weeks, POSETTE: An Event for Postgres, 1128 01:19:56,862 --> 01:20:00,562 which is the event that my team organizes, is virtual. It's free. 1129 01:20:00,722 --> 01:20:02,822 It's happening at the end of March in 2027. 1130 01:20:03,142 --> 01:20:07,342 The CFP is going to be opening soon, and it will close on January 3rd. 1131 01:20:07,582 --> 01:20:11,382 So it's going to be a short CFP period this time. 1132 01:20:13,838 --> 01:20:17,858 [MAGNUS] Always an interesting discussion. Does it make sense to have long CFP times? 1133 01:20:19,138 --> 01:20:21,098 Because everyone submits the last day anyway. 1134 01:20:19,702 --> 01:20:20,242 [CLAIRE] Well, does it? 1135 01:20:23,398 --> 01:20:24,718 [MAGNUS] I mean, it's, I think it's a fair discussion. 1136 01:20:24,758 --> 01:20:26,178 You've got to find a balance between them. 1137 01:20:26,638 --> 01:20:30,858 There's no point in having a 6 month long open CFP, 1138 01:20:31,678 --> 01:20:34,218 I think, personally, but it has to be long enough that 1139 01:20:35,298 --> 01:20:38,318 people can start thinking when it opens and then panic at the end. 1140 01:20:40,202 --> 01:20:43,822 [CLAIRE] Also, I think it has to be long enough that you can try to reach people 1141 01:20:43,862 --> 01:20:49,142 who are not the usual suspects, who maybe have never submitted before or haven't been to 1142 01:20:49,182 --> 01:20:52,442 that conference before or didn't even know it existed. 1143 01:20:52,882 --> 01:20:57,582 And, you know, it takes some time to get out of the normal channels and reach 1144 01:20:57,642 --> 01:21:00,902 those people. But that's hard. It's hard to do. 1145 01:21:01,442 --> 01:21:05,262 And sometimes even giving yourself more time doesn't mean you're going to achieve that. 1146 01:21:06,098 --> 01:21:10,018 [MAGNUS] I mean, it only gives you a chance to achieve it if you give yourself more 1147 01:21:10,058 --> 01:21:11,418 time and you actually start. 1148 01:21:11,582 --> 01:21:13,002 [CLAIRE] Exactly. You do the work. 1149 01:21:13,238 --> 01:21:16,558 [MAGNUS] Giving yourself more time and not starting, which unfortunately 1150 01:21:17,158 --> 01:21:20,258 ends up far too often being the case, doesn't really help. 1151 01:21:20,298 --> 01:21:21,738 So there is a balance between them. 1152 01:21:21,798 --> 01:21:24,478 Obviously, you should not just have the CFP open for a week. 1153 01:21:25,798 --> 01:21:29,998 Then some people may be on vacation and never see it, right? But six months, 1154 01:21:30,658 --> 01:21:33,738 I think, is way too much, and then you just got to find your balance in 1155 01:21:33,758 --> 01:21:34,178 between them. 1156 01:21:36,902 --> 01:21:37,242 [CLAIRE] All right. 1157 01:21:37,662 --> 01:21:43,002 Well, you were actually a speaker, a keynote speaker at the very first POSETTE: An Event 1158 01:21:43,042 --> 01:21:48,262 for Postgres, back when it was—so this is going to be the sixth one in 2027—and 1159 01:21:48,322 --> 01:21:51,362 that was back when we called it Citus Con: An Event for Postgres. 1160 01:21:51,762 --> 01:21:54,222 We since changed the name, but I thank you for that. 1161 01:21:55,122 --> 01:21:58,102 It really, especially the first year of an event, the 1162 01:21:58,562 --> 01:22:03,722 keynote speakers bring, I think, a lot of prestige and gravitas 1163 01:22:04,702 --> 01:22:08,042 and attention to an event, and I really, really appreciated your support. 1164 01:22:08,082 --> 01:22:10,342 And you gave a really good talk, so I will link to it in the show 1165 01:22:10,382 --> 01:22:10,642 notes. 1166 01:22:11,598 --> 01:22:11,958 [MAGNUS] Thank you. 1167 01:22:12,922 --> 01:22:19,402 [CLAIRE] Yeah. All right. Well, I think we're at a wrap. We covered a lot of ground. 1168 01:22:20,442 --> 01:22:21,962 I hope we didn't miss anything. 1169 01:22:22,042 --> 01:22:25,162 Do you feel like we answered the question, how you got started in Postgres? 1170 01:22:26,678 --> 01:22:27,998 [MAGNUS] I think we did a pretty good job of that. 1171 01:22:29,122 --> 01:22:32,082 [CLAIRE] I think we did too. It's fun having you on the show. 1172 01:22:33,002 --> 01:22:38,262 I look forward to the next time I see you in person as well, and— 1173 01:22:39,458 --> 01:22:40,218 [MAGNUS] Which will be 1174 01:22:41,018 --> 01:22:41,638 FOSDEM, right? 1175 01:22:42,642 --> 01:22:48,462 [CLAIRE] I hope so. I hope to come to FOSDEM. Although it is slushy and cold 1176 01:22:48,942 --> 01:22:54,442 and sometimes rainy, and I have to pull out the waterproof boots and the warm jackets. 1177 01:22:55,442 --> 01:22:59,342 But it's so many smart people from all over the world in one place. I mean, 1178 01:23:00,642 --> 01:23:04,202 when you think of FOSDEM as a whole, not just the PGDay and not just the 1179 01:23:04,242 --> 01:23:05,262 PostgreSQL devroom, it's like 1180 01:23:05,942 --> 01:23:07,182 8,000 developers, right? 1181 01:23:08,862 --> 01:23:09,302 It's big. 1182 01:23:09,938 --> 01:23:10,678 [MAGNUS] Yeah, it's huge. 1183 01:23:11,862 --> 01:23:16,202 [CLAIRE] And if anyone's never been and they hear about it in this podcast and they decide 1184 01:23:16,242 --> 01:23:19,402 to go one of the tricky parts that people 1185 01:23:20,042 --> 01:23:21,962 run into is they feel like they have to register. 1186 01:23:22,362 --> 01:23:28,102 But there's no registration at FOSDEM, right? It's a free and open source developer 1187 01:23:28,642 --> 01:23:34,442 something-something conference. Actually, the acronym FOSDEM is what inspired the acronym of POSETTE 1188 01:23:35,222 --> 01:23:38,862 because I felt like, oh, people don't even know what FOSDEM stands for. 1189 01:23:39,282 --> 01:23:42,522 And so POSETTE, they don't even need to know what it stands for, right? 1190 01:23:42,602 --> 01:23:46,262 As long as it rolls off the tongue and has a meaning behind it that you 1191 01:23:46,302 --> 01:23:47,342 could explain if asked. 1192 01:23:48,282 --> 01:23:51,402 Anyway, but you don't need to register, and 1193 01:23:51,922 --> 01:23:55,802 you do need to have a plan because there are so many devrooms and so many 1194 01:23:56,342 --> 01:23:58,502 places you could be in different buildings. 1195 01:23:58,662 --> 01:24:01,442 You need to know what you're trying to accomplish before you get there. 1196 01:24:01,862 --> 01:24:03,702 Otherwise, you just—it's easy to get lost. 1197 01:24:04,979 --> 01:24:07,998 [MAGNUS] Yep, I agree. And it's important to know this goes for the 1198 01:24:08,538 --> 01:24:13,777 FOSDEM event that's on Saturday and Sunday. The FOSDEM PGDay that is 1199 01:24:14,738 --> 01:24:19,538 misnamed because it's now two days, Thursday and Friday, does require a registration. 1200 01:24:19,942 --> 01:24:22,922 [CLAIRE] And that's on Thursday and Friday, and this is the first time it's going to be 1201 01:24:22,962 --> 01:24:26,482 two days. So presumably more talks. 1202 01:24:27,102 --> 01:24:30,722 Are you going to have more tracks or just more talks because of the two days? 1203 01:24:32,498 --> 01:24:36,738 [MAGNUS] It's more talks. We went from one to two tracks recently. 1204 01:24:38,158 --> 01:24:40,738 I don't remember if it was last year or two years ago. So we'll 1205 01:24:41,578 --> 01:24:44,078 keep the number of tracks, but increase the number of days. 1206 01:24:46,222 --> 01:24:51,602 [CLAIRE] Well, and I'm looking forward to it. And again, thank you for coming on the podcast. 1207 01:24:51,822 --> 01:24:53,602 Really appreciate it. Thank you for your time. 1208 01:24:55,798 --> 01:24:56,478 [MAGNUS] Thank you for having me. 1209 01:24:57,386 --> 01:24:59,782 [CLAIRE] A big thanks to Magnus Hagander for joining us. 1210 01:24:59,942 --> 01:25:04,102 And for those of you who liked today's episode and you want to hear more of 1211 01:25:04,142 --> 01:25:09,902 these Talking Postgres shows, you should subscribe on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get 1212 01:25:09,942 --> 01:25:13,422 your podcasts. And please tell your friends, because 1213 01:25:13,982 --> 01:25:17,562 word of mouth and recommendations are gold in the podcast world. 1214 01:25:18,262 --> 01:25:23,042 You can always get to past episodes and links to subscribe on the different platforms by 1215 01:25:23,082 --> 01:25:28,422 going to TalkingPostgres.com, and you'll find transcripts included on the episode pages on 1216 01:25:28,462 --> 01:25:30,062 TalkingPostgres.com too. 1217 01:25:30,642 --> 01:25:35,462 And a big thank you to everybody who joined today's live recording and participated in the 1218 01:25:35,522 --> 01:25:37,062 live text chat on Discord.