Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Speaker: Hello and welcome, Maja.
I'm super excited to have the two of you there.
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you very much for having us, yeah.
How are you?
Speaker: Good.
So, you know, let people know where in this lovely world you're based and, you
know, what's your business with dogs and
Speaker 2: cats?
Yeah, that's true, it's more pets actually.
Um, so I'm based in, um, England in Gloucestershire, which is on the south.
Wales, um, border.
And, um, so I'm based in Gloucestershire, but my business and my organization is
a, uh, international organization, so our work costs are The world really,
but that's where I'm kind of based.
Um, and I run Safeguarding Animal and Human Survivors of Sexual and Domestic
Abuse, which is known as SASTA.
Um, and we are a, um, training, kind of, guest lecturing space.
It's an education organization, really, looking to raise awareness on the use of
companion animals, but especially dogs, as a tactic of coercive controlling behavior
within domestic abuse relationships.
And then I also do work, um, as the organization on animal sexual abuse
and, um, um, spiritual and ritual abuse, the use of animals in, um, kind of
witchcraft, um, um, across the world.
Yeah, this is, um, it's an interesting, um, organization.
Speaker: Jesus,
Speaker 2: it's
Speaker: a, it's a heavy topic, right?
How did you get into that?
Like, what made you turn that into your, into your business?
Speaker 2: My business, so, um, My background is in human survivor support.
So I left, I left university, um, in 2015 and I did a, um, an undergraduate
degree in history with a focus on, um, women's oppression and like the
equal rights movements throughout time.
And then I did my Master's in Human Rights Law, and then throughout the four years
of university, I was volunteering for a local, um, kind of, um, abuse charity
on, as a helpline advocate, um, and I also worked for Citizens Advice Bureau,
which is a, Um, Charity in the UK, which helps give advice on lots of different
topics to those in need, basically.
Um, and then I left university, and my first job was working
in the, um, coroner's office.
So, actually, I was, um, investigating suspicious and unnatural deaths.
Um, and as part of that work, um, we would look at if someone had, um, you
know, been, been killed by a partner, ex partner, or family member, you would do
what's called a domestic homicide review.
Thank you.
So you would look at where were the missed opportunities to intervene by
agencies, and what can we learn from this so that we prevent it happening again.
And then I left that and I worked directly with survivors of sexual
and domestic abuse for several years, so I'm qualified independent.
sexual violence advocate, um, and so I would work with those who are
either currently or historically, um, being subjected to some form
of trauma from abuse, um, and I do risk assessing and safety planning.
Um, and then about five years ago, I, um, I became a trainer, a VALDA SV trainer,
which stands for Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence.
Um, and my job was to train kind of statutory organizations like policing
and social services and, um, family courts and criminal courts, um, as
well as non statutory agencies like, um, voluntary charities, voluntary
sector, businesses, government, um, on, um, The Recognizing and Responding
Effectively to Abuse in a Trauma Informed, Needs Led, Strength Based Way.
Um, and at about the same time that I started there in 2019, I got my,
my dog, Podrick, um, and he was the first dog I had as an adult.
So I had a family dog growing up, um, and I was just enthralled with him.
I thought he was the most amazing, interesting, fascinating being ever.
And I just, couldn't get out, you know, I'd watch him and I wanted
to know why is he doing that?
What, what's he thinking?
Like, how can I make sure that I'm meeting his needs and, and
all of those kinds of things?
And this is before I even entered kind of the dog world, but based on my background
working with survivors of abuse and young adults, You can use so much of that when
you interact with dogs, whether they are traumatized or not, you can use so much.
So, um, I'm someone who, once I'm interested in something, I kind of really
go down the rabbit hole and I don't, I don't feel like it's enough to just read.
I'm like, I need to, you know, do this course.
I need to meet these people.
I need to do this.
So I then started doing kind of courses in dog body language originally,
and then that, um, and kind of more training based things, but I moved
very quickly away from that as an ethos of mine because of my background.
I was much more interested in kind of the psychology and the behavior side, um,
of, of animals and in particular dogs.
Um, And so from that I met, um, some really great people in kind
of the behavioural world like Andrew Hale and Trisha Hollingshead
and Danny Beck and all of that.
Um, and I felt like I had something to kind of offer that
sector because of my background.
Um, I felt like because the kind of dog behavior in training world is
unregulated and lots of you are working as individuals businesses so you don't
have a HR department you don't have like the structure that lots of other
um like professions do and so my concern was I was talking to like you know my
friends who were behaviorists and they didn't really know what to do like
if they suspected abuse in the animal or the human client and I felt like
there was a real gap there in terms of Understanding our responsibility under
the legislation, you know, whichever country you're in, there will be
legislation around information sharing in order to protect people and animals.
Um, but also like confidence, you know, that confidence levels.
And then also there's an element of risk that I was really worried that,
you know, At some point, you know, some, something's going to happen to either
a behaviorist, a trainer, or a client because, um, you often also work in
kind of isolated areas where there's not much mobile signal and, and so I
was concerned about the personal safety of my, of behaviorists and trainers, as
well as the human and animal clients.
So, so I set up SASTA.
It's only, we've only been going since about January this year.
I did a couple of years before I started doing BITS.
So I did some work with the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors.
I did some work with Andy.
in dog centered care, and I started having kind of the conversations.
A catalyst was I was invited to speak at Houses of Parliament in October 2023
on a panel specifically on the use of, um, looking at the use of companion
animals as a tactic of coercive control.
And, um, from there, you know, that I was getting contacted, um,
quite a lot to, to, um, kind of speak with people and collaborate.
So I thought I needed something to, um, differentiate me from my employed job.
Cause obviously I was employed and I run this, um, in my spare time.
So, um, it was really important that there was something that people could go to.
Um, and that's where Safeguarding Animal and Human Survivors of Sexual and Domestic
Abuse kind of was born, I suppose.
Wow.
Speaker: That's, I mean, what is something that you find people, what do you think,
what do you wish people knew about this?
Because, I mean, I can totally see, like, you know, we, I mean, just listen to
the news, and quite often when there's situations where people It usually feels
like, okay, once they're separated and you can't, you know, then they go for what
they most love and that's the children.
And that's the animals, right?
So I can totally see it's like, oh boy.
Like I don't even wanna think about it.
You know?
So what are signals?
Somebody could, what?
Watch out for, to, you know, to help you pick up if maybe your neighbor or
something's, because you know, it's, it.
You might have it right in front of you in your area and wouldn't know.
How can you tell or is there something that that gives it away?
Speaker 2: So often it's looking at like, um, similar to how we would
look at like dog behavior, has there been a change in behavior?
So if you knew that person and then they've um, got into a relationship, has
their behavior significantly changed?
Are they more withdrawn?
Are they isolated?
Are they, um, are they not able to come anymore because they're
not being allowed to pay?
You know, they don't have access to their finances, etc.
And they might use language, which is like, um, So, to say the perpetrator, so
they might say things like, so if we use a fake name, I'm just trying, I don't want
to offend anyone by using a fake name.
If I use a fake name like, I use my grandad because I love
him to bits and he won't mind.
So he's called John, so if they said something like, um, oh John doesn't like
it when I do this, this and this, or, or they act like worried about what would
happen if they did something that that person wouldn't agree with or wouldn't
like, um, We have to think way deeper than any sort of physical sign, because
we're still quite, there's this myth that domestic abuse is only physical
violence, and there's the broken bone and the bruised eye, and the reality
is that there, there can be violence, um, the highest risk indicator though
is coercive control, so that's where they limit your life, so your ability
to act independently is compromised, so your ability to work without.
You know, work at all, but if you are allowed to work, is it really stressful?
Do they contact, monitor you?
Do they contact, always harass you at work, like by phone or email?
Or do they accuse you of affairs with your co worker?
You know, those kinds of things.
And then economic abuse as well.
Um, where it comes under that, but also around, especially for the pets, things
like, are they allowed to go to the vet?
Are they allowed to be treated for parasites?
Are they allowed to be fed the food that you want to feed them?
You know, and so there's lots of like small indicators that add
up, but my biggest, my biggest thing I want behaviorists to
understand is Or maybe there's two.
One is that it is a you issue, because the biggest barrier I find is that
people go that's got nothing to do with me, like, I don't deal with that.
I work with dogs.
I don't have anything to do with that.
The reality is
that domestic abuse is extremely common.
So one in three women in their lifetime, I personally think it's higher than that,
but that's the statistic that we know, um, experience domestic abuse, one in six men.
So.
If you have a client and an animal and there's domestic abuse, you
are working with domestic abuse.
That's the reality of it.
Whether that's current or whether that was 10 years ago and that dog's still affected
um, after, you know, being removed from the situation, you are working
with it in some way, shape or form.
So first of all, we need to Get that barrier down that
it does, it does involve me.
I do have a responsibility to be an active bystander.
But my other big thing is I'm not expecting people to be experts in this and
we shouldn't expect people to be experts in this because that's not your role.
So what my, what I'm trying to do is um, educate people on spotting
the signs and then knowing who to pass that information to.
And that's all we want is, is, is, is.
Your gut to tell you that something's not right, you either ask or you,
you pass the information on and then you've done your bit, because when we
work with domestic abuse, um, in my sector, we work with multi agencies.
So we work with police, social services, education, health, um, you know,
anyone and everyone, and everyone holds a different piece of the puzzle.
Not everyone has all of the picture, and so you might have a piece of
the puzzle that's really helps build that picture, helps with that case,
helps with, um, safety planning.
And if we don't know that, then we can't include that in our risk
assessment, in our, you know, our ability to save and protect people.
So I think that, that there's that, um, I want people to feel a
responsibility to, to this subject.
And then I want them to know that it's okay that not to be the expert and
that this is where you go with it.
Um, so I will mention that we, I'm just finishing up.
The, there will be a new qualification for pet professionals.
Um, it's the level two award in safeguarding for the pet professionals.
It's Ofqual regulated, which means that it's a, it's a proper qualification.
Um, and that means it's regulated by an awarding body in the UK.
So it's not just a kind of a course that I've written and kind of out there.
It's a, it's a, it's a gone through a rigorous quality internal and
external quality assurance procedure.
And that's going to be run by IPET network and myself, um, in collaboration.
So it's an international, it will be available internationally, um, which
is really important as well, because we want this to be a standardized thing,
similar to how we're trying to get people to do their canine first aid.
Um, and if you, and our thing is.
In our sector, in my sector, you have to repeat your safeguarding
training every five years.
Um, so we want to kind of model that for any professionals.
Um, and so by pet professionals, we mean, you know, dog trainers
and behaviorists, but we also mean groomers and dog daycare and dog
walkers and, um, vet receptionists.
And, you know, um, not, This one isn't specific for vets because they need a
much more medical, a different, different type of course, um, but it, for that
receptionist, it would be a good one.
So that's coming out within the next um, month or two, um, and then I'm also
creating a, um, That's the version of it that's an e learning, but that wouldn't
be a qualification because, again, because of the strict nature of that, you have
to kind of come to all of the hours and I need to make sure that people are there.
It's only a day course so it's not a huge taxing qualification, but it is
important that we meet those requirements.
And then the e learning will be available to do in your own time kind of thing.
So those are the two kind of main things.
products coming out.
Well,
Speaker: let us know so we can, you know, distribute it.
And so, so how, how does it typically, or is there something that gives away that
a dog might have been subjected to abuse in some form, like of that kind of abuse?
Like I didn't even, I don't know, like sexual abuse in animals.
Like, I was like, who would do that?
Like, I don't even get this, right?
So, but I mean, if you, because you were just saying that it's not
just when they're in the situation.
Right, it actually, you know, impacts them way beyond that.
So, so is there something that would give it away?
Or, you know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's a really good point because when you speak
to human survivors of Um, you know, abuse.
They often say that the psychological and emotional abuse is what stays
with them and affects them the most.
You know, they talk about broken bones heal, bruises heal, but if you've
been told for, you know, months, days, months, years, that you're worthless
and that no one loves you and no one cares about you and no one's going
to believe you and if you leave them then they're going to, you know, hurt
themselves or they're going to hurt you.
That stays with them for like a long time, and that's where the support
comes, the specialist support comes in then to help on that journey.
But I think having worked with children and young adults affected and, and
victims, survivors of domestic abuse, I feel like animal, animal, animals that
live in that environment are, um, You know, exposed to that same, um, harm
and therefore the psychological impact can be quite similar to the children.
So again, it's a lot of kind of a behavioral, um, behavioral impact.
So do they, are they fearful of that one person in that family?
So if you're working with a family and they are fearful of that, normally
the male, um, that could be a sign that there's abuse happening there.
But not always, because like with children.
Because we have such strong bonds with our animals, sometimes they go
into like, um, like a, like, Stockholm Syndrome type, um, bond, trauma bonding.
So they actually sometimes are closer to the perpetrator.
That's tricky, isn't it?
So it's a really tricky You can't be a bad
Speaker: person if the dog loves them, right?
Speaker 2: Yes, which is so incorrect.
And then you might see a lot of appeasement behaviours, which is really
difficult because some, some animals are more appeasing naturally as their
personality, like my dog is very appeasy.
So, you know, but I think what I try and do in my training is say, Don't
act necessarily on just one indicator.
It's really about building that picture of, of things and the person
might directly tell you that's, you know, that's the biggest indicator
and then you would need to act.
But it might be that, you know, say oh they missed a session and when they came
they came next time they were saying they they were something didn't sit right
about what they were saying about why they missed it and or they might link
it to oh um my partner kind of really wanted to spend more time with me because
he or she said that um, you I spend too much time on the dog, or I spend
too much money on the dog, and, or the perpetrator will purposefully undermine
behavior plans or modification plans.
So if you're not seeing like, progress, um, then it might be because the person
is intentionally disrupting that as a tactic of maintaining power and control
over the, the family including the pet.
So, So, there might be physical signs in the animal.
We know about pain, and pain can indicate, can come through a behavioural indicator.
So, if they are abusing the animal in some way that isn't, um, a massive,
um, like, broken leg or something like that, there might be pain in other areas
that might be indicating there's abuse.
Um, and then it's kind of that behavioural, behavioural
side of things as well.
But I go into a lot more detail in, uh in the training.
Speaker: So do you see, is there, you were saying that this is,
you know, an international, are there sort of differences?
Is there like, you know, in the way these cases are treated from, you know,
I don't know, in this, like by the, by the authorities or is there, do you find,
is this, is this how this plays out?
Is this different, let's say in the States versus Europe or
are there differences locally?
Speaker 2: So in terms of perpetration, Yes, so how someone might perpetrate
their abuse might have, um, be influenced by their cultural background.
Um, so for example, with forced marriage, um, that's something that's more common
in, in kind of South Asian communities.
Um, that's not to say it only happens there, it does happen in kind of
Orthodox Jewish, um, um, communities.
It happens, um, in some communities, to be honest.
Um, it's really important that It's not, it's about saying cultural acceptance, so
accepting someone's culture and someone's beliefs is really important, you know,
um, but, um, Jasvinder Sanghera, who is the, um, founder of a charity called
Karma Nirvana, and they support, in the UK, they support, um, survivors of forced
marriage, um, and she says, she, she said in a, in a TED Talk, and I found
it really poignant, she said, cultural acceptance does not mean accepting the
unacceptable, So abuse is unacceptable and there is no excuse for abuse.
So, um, saying it's part of my religion or it's part of my
culture is not a valid excuse for hurting or abusing someone else.
Um, so with forced marriage and, um, especially in the UK, um,
perpetrators will use kind of the, our immigration system as an
additional perpetration tactic.
So they'll, um, They'll kind of say, um, if you leave me, then I'll tell the
authorities that you're here illegally, or I won't let you have your pass,
or, or, especially if they've married a British national, that can become,
um, quite difficult, um, especially in the UK with our benefit system,
who can and can't access benefits, and therefore there's additional barriers
for leaving for certain survivors based on their intersecting identities.
Um, so for example with LGBTQ plus survivors as well, there's an additional
element where the perpetrator might use their identity as a, as a control tactic.
So if, say, someone is gay but not yet out, they will threaten to out them as a
way of maintaining power and control, or, um, they know that, you know, because our
systems are institutionally transphobic, homophobic, racist and sexist, that
they can manipulate this, um, systems as an arm of their power and control.
Um, so there is, there is, um, and disability as well.
So like if you had a, if you were a deaf survivor and you had a hearing partner
who was perpetrating abuse, you ought to think about how difficult, like
additional barriers for that person to tell someone because someone might not.
be able to, um, you know, understand British Sign Language or any other form
of sign language, but also they're not going to be able to, like, phone someone
in the same way to say they need help.
Um, and so it's looking at all these different dynamics of abuse.
and thinking about vulnerability in a different way.
So yeah, it does, so in terms of perpetration, it can definitely
change based on kind of geography and background and all those types of things.
And it, but in terms of response, it does as well.
So we know that, I mean, police response to domestic abuse is
fairly poor across the board.
Um, I wouldn't say like any country has it spot on.
And for
Speaker: the animals, like if you notice something with
animals, like where would you go?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, so, um, obviously in the UK, um, and many countries have some
form of animal protection organizations.
So obviously in the UK we have the RSPCA, the Royal Society Animals.
Um, and Um, there are specific charities now that will help those who are
fleeing domestic abuse and want, um, and aren't able to take their pet.
So there's a couple in the UK like, um, Dog Stress Freedom Program, there's
Cats Protection Lifeline, um, and there are a few localised ones as well.
But then, but then there is a thing where, if, for example, with dogs, if you've got
a dog that's heavily traumatised, removing them from their non abusive family.
Caregiver, which they often have a very strong bond with.
It's a traumatic to remove them from each other, um, for
the animal and for the human.
But then where, my thing is, those then animals get put
into kennels or foster, etc.
And they need specialist behavioral care because it's
not your average dog Going into,
Speaker: what's the, like, I've heard this that a lot of, I mean, I definitely have
heard this, that there's a lot of sort of safe houses for women, you know, where
they're not allowed to bring their dog.
And I'm like, like, what?
You know, it's like, you might as well just bloody invite
the guy along, you know?
So it's like, I don't like, what, I mean, is there, is there a reason, like, is
there a reason that kind of makes sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is.
When someone flees to refuge, which is the crisis emergency accommodation,
that's because there's a serious risk of life limiting injury or death.
So it's a really serious and, um, fractious situation, um, and
a really dangerous situation.
So lots of people think that when someone leaves the safety increases,
but actually the, what actually happens is the danger increases.
That's when it starts to get dangerous, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
But that's the thing, it's
Speaker: like, why can't they, like, if you have a shelter like that,
why can't people bring their dog?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: So, so.
Speaker 2: I think, firstly, when you go into refuge, you're not normally
housed in the area in which you live, so you'll move geographically, because
obviously that's an unsafe area now, even though perpetrators will stalk.
Um, Safe Housing Refuges normally are multi occupancy, so you, it's not just
one person with their children, it's like multiple people, so you have to
cater for the fact that that person That person is, might be fleeing with their
dog because they've got this really strong bond, but that person that's in the room
next to them has had the perpetrator use a dog as a weapon on that person.
So they're scared of dogs.
So you can't make, you have to be trauma informed to everyone.
You can't make an environment which is unwelcoming to all survivors.
And then some survivors or children might have, um, You know, allergies, or,
because these, the safe houses are short.
Fair enough, you know, but I'm sort of
Speaker: thinking, if, if, if you tell me, well, you can come, but your dog
can't, well, then what am I going to do?
I'm going to bloody stay where I am, and I'm probably going to
get killed in the process, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so the statistics Those with animals, um, stay longer
than those who don't have animals, particularly because of that, which
is where the foster schemes come in, the ones I've just mentioned.
But if you wanted, if you wanted to leave, um, into a refuge, then
the foster, then there are these programs which will foster the animal.
You get the dog returned to you, or the cat returned to you, once
you're in safe accommodation.
Um, I also think, you know, if you look at it from a dog centric point of
view, it's really stressful for like, if you're a traumatized dog, to then
be taken from your home but into a multi occupancy home with other dogs.
You might have a reality, it's just, I personally think it would be a really
untenable situation and increase stress for, but also Lots of our dogs are quite
identifiable So the whole point of a safe house is you don't really go outside
You don't tell anyone where you are.
It would be really unfortunate if like from for example, my dog He's
a split faced border collie with three toes He's really identifiable.
So if I fled to a refuge And then, um, the refuge worker took him out for a walk, and
just by chance, you know, someone who knew me, they go back and they say to Bob, oh
I think I just saw Bodrick in this house, just blown, not just your safe house,
but all of the people in that refuge.
So I think that there is pros and cons, and there are trials happening
in Canada and the States around creating some sort of structure which
can house people and animals together, but you've also got to think, some
people don't just have one dog.
Or one cat.
They have multiple, and sometimes that's a tactic of the perpetrator.
The perpetrator will create, give lots of animals, so then you've got a house
with lots of animals, and you just can't take all of them, and then you've got
people with horses, or people with farm animals, and, and so there's different,
there has to be different structures for those specific, or exotic pets, you know?
Um, so it's a really hard, it's, there's no good solution,
but there are efforts to try.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking like, well, the point
of attack is also like, why do perpetrators do this in the first place?
You know, you're thinking, well, that would be kind of the easy solution, right?
Well, not easy, obviously, you know, but that would really solve it all, right?
So yeah, that's a whole topic for a different conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, that's very complex.
Very complex and very deep, deep rooted myths around why people perpetrated,
perpetrate violence and abuse as well.
Um, yeah, so happy
Speaker: to come back to talk about that.
Absolutely.
And so in the meantime, where can people go and get in touch with
you, find out more about you, your programs, the work you do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, um, I've got the website, which is www.
sasta.
org, so it's S A H S D A.
I'm sure we can pop it in the, in the newsletter.
It'll be right below you.
Yeah, and I'm happy to give you my email address as well.
Um, yeah.
With regards to the upcoming training that will be released on the website, and
I will be setting up a new, um, specific Facebook group for those who've done the
qualification and done the e-learning so that, um, those, they have somewhere
to come if they, you know, they have their first inkling after being on the
training that something's not right.
They've got a space to come and ask questions.
Um, I can do like little lives in there around anything specific.
Um.
So that, that will be set up as well eventually, hopefully,
in the next few months.
Speaker: Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for, you know, really pointing our noses to
a topic that's probably right under our noses and so easy to overlook if
you're not, if you're not informed.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2: You're so welcome.
Thank you very much for having me.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so
other dog lovers can find the show.
If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs.
com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal
stories to warm your dog loving heart.
And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview,
I'd love an introduction.
Email me at Anke.
That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.