WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.746 --> 00:00:27.286 Speaker: Hello and welcome, Maja. 00:00:27.336 --> 00:00:29.576 I'm super excited to have the two of you there. 00:00:32.486 --> 00:00:34.556 Speaker 2: Hi, thank you very much for having us, yeah. 00:00:34.556 --> 00:00:37.186 How are you? 00:00:37.776 --> 00:00:38.146 Speaker: Good. 00:00:38.416 --> 00:00:43.656 So, you know, let people know where in this lovely world you're based and, you 00:00:43.656 --> 00:00:46.566 know, what's your business with dogs and 00:00:46.566 --> 00:00:47.796 Speaker 2: cats? 00:00:47.796 --> 00:00:49.486 Yeah, that's true, it's more pets actually. 00:00:49.486 --> 00:00:54.326 Um, so I'm based in, um, England in Gloucestershire, which is on the south. 00:00:54.496 --> 00:00:56.096 Wales, um, border. 00:00:56.656 --> 00:01:01.526 And, um, so I'm based in Gloucestershire, but my business and my organization is 00:01:01.526 --> 00:01:06.136 a, uh, international organization, so our work costs are The world really, 00:01:06.606 --> 00:01:07.906 but that's where I'm kind of based. 00:01:08.536 --> 00:01:12.946 Um, and I run Safeguarding Animal and Human Survivors of Sexual and Domestic 00:01:13.146 --> 00:01:14.226 Abuse, which is known as SASTA. 00:01:15.496 --> 00:01:21.366 Um, and we are a, um, training, kind of, guest lecturing space. 00:01:21.856 --> 00:01:27.466 It's an education organization, really, looking to raise awareness on the use of 00:01:27.516 --> 00:01:34.236 companion animals, but especially dogs, as a tactic of coercive controlling behavior 00:01:34.236 --> 00:01:36.556 within domestic abuse relationships. 00:01:37.326 --> 00:01:43.256 And then I also do work, um, as the organization on animal sexual abuse 00:01:43.486 --> 00:01:49.406 and, um, um, spiritual and ritual abuse, the use of animals in, um, kind of 00:01:49.946 --> 00:01:53.046 witchcraft, um, um, across the world. 00:01:53.086 --> 00:01:57.416 Yeah, this is, um, it's an interesting, um, organization. 00:01:57.796 --> 00:01:58.246 Speaker: Jesus, 00:01:58.246 --> 00:01:58.756 Speaker 2: it's 00:01:58.756 --> 00:02:00.216 Speaker: a, it's a heavy topic, right? 00:02:00.266 --> 00:02:01.566 How did you get into that? 00:02:01.586 --> 00:02:05.036 Like, what made you turn that into your, into your business? 00:02:05.156 --> 00:02:09.416 Speaker 2: My business, so, um, My background is in human survivor support. 00:02:10.146 --> 00:02:16.936 So I left, I left university, um, in 2015 and I did a, um, an undergraduate 00:02:16.936 --> 00:02:21.096 degree in history with a focus on, um, women's oppression and like the 00:02:21.096 --> 00:02:23.456 equal rights movements throughout time. 00:02:23.931 --> 00:02:28.691 And then I did my Master's in Human Rights Law, and then throughout the four years 00:02:28.691 --> 00:02:34.641 of university, I was volunteering for a local, um, kind of, um, abuse charity 00:02:34.701 --> 00:02:39.681 on, as a helpline advocate, um, and I also worked for Citizens Advice Bureau, 00:02:39.761 --> 00:02:44.336 which is a, Um, Charity in the UK, which helps give advice on lots of different 00:02:44.356 --> 00:02:46.026 topics to those in need, basically. 00:02:47.086 --> 00:02:51.486 Um, and then I left university, and my first job was working 00:02:51.486 --> 00:02:52.656 in the, um, coroner's office. 00:02:53.006 --> 00:02:56.626 So, actually, I was, um, investigating suspicious and unnatural deaths. 00:02:57.346 --> 00:03:02.936 Um, and as part of that work, um, we would look at if someone had, um, you 00:03:02.936 --> 00:03:06.176 know, been, been killed by a partner, ex partner, or family member, you would do 00:03:06.206 --> 00:03:07.896 what's called a domestic homicide review. 00:03:07.896 --> 00:03:08.026 Thank you. 00:03:08.446 --> 00:03:12.026 So you would look at where were the missed opportunities to intervene by 00:03:12.086 --> 00:03:16.836 agencies, and what can we learn from this so that we prevent it happening again. 00:03:17.566 --> 00:03:22.036 And then I left that and I worked directly with survivors of sexual 00:03:22.036 --> 00:03:26.036 and domestic abuse for several years, so I'm qualified independent. 00:03:26.596 --> 00:03:31.216 sexual violence advocate, um, and so I would work with those who are 00:03:31.456 --> 00:03:35.106 either currently or historically, um, being subjected to some form 00:03:35.106 --> 00:03:39.636 of trauma from abuse, um, and I do risk assessing and safety planning. 00:03:40.271 --> 00:03:44.951 Um, and then about five years ago, I, um, I became a trainer, a VALDA SV trainer, 00:03:44.951 --> 00:03:48.091 which stands for Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence. 00:03:48.671 --> 00:03:54.231 Um, and my job was to train kind of statutory organizations like policing 00:03:54.231 --> 00:04:01.211 and social services and, um, family courts and criminal courts, um, as 00:04:01.211 --> 00:04:05.611 well as non statutory agencies like, um, voluntary charities, voluntary 00:04:05.791 --> 00:04:12.041 sector, businesses, government, um, on, um, The Recognizing and Responding 00:04:12.041 --> 00:04:17.901 Effectively to Abuse in a Trauma Informed, Needs Led, Strength Based Way. 00:04:18.681 --> 00:04:24.001 Um, and at about the same time that I started there in 2019, I got my, 00:04:24.051 --> 00:04:29.161 my dog, Podrick, um, and he was the first dog I had as an adult. 00:04:29.271 --> 00:04:34.351 So I had a family dog growing up, um, and I was just enthralled with him. 00:04:34.381 --> 00:04:39.861 I thought he was the most amazing, interesting, fascinating being ever. 00:04:39.901 --> 00:04:43.216 And I just, couldn't get out, you know, I'd watch him and I wanted 00:04:43.216 --> 00:04:44.766 to know why is he doing that? 00:04:44.766 --> 00:04:46.026 What, what's he thinking? 00:04:46.026 --> 00:04:49.406 Like, how can I make sure that I'm meeting his needs and, and 00:04:49.406 --> 00:04:50.546 all of those kinds of things? 00:04:50.966 --> 00:04:54.586 And this is before I even entered kind of the dog world, but based on my background 00:04:54.586 --> 00:05:00.241 working with survivors of abuse and young adults, You can use so much of that when 00:05:00.241 --> 00:05:04.401 you interact with dogs, whether they are traumatized or not, you can use so much. 00:05:04.481 --> 00:05:11.101 So, um, I'm someone who, once I'm interested in something, I kind of really 00:05:11.101 --> 00:05:15.241 go down the rabbit hole and I don't, I don't feel like it's enough to just read. 00:05:15.241 --> 00:05:18.181 I'm like, I need to, you know, do this course. 00:05:18.181 --> 00:05:19.591 I need to meet these people. 00:05:19.911 --> 00:05:20.671 I need to do this. 00:05:20.681 --> 00:05:26.451 So I then started doing kind of courses in dog body language originally, 00:05:26.921 --> 00:05:31.131 and then that, um, and kind of more training based things, but I moved 00:05:31.131 --> 00:05:35.201 very quickly away from that as an ethos of mine because of my background. 00:05:35.211 --> 00:05:41.011 I was much more interested in kind of the psychology and the behavior side, um, 00:05:41.271 --> 00:05:43.411 of, of animals and in particular dogs. 00:05:44.061 --> 00:05:48.096 Um, And so from that I met, um, some really great people in kind 00:05:48.096 --> 00:05:51.476 of the behavioural world like Andrew Hale and Trisha Hollingshead 00:05:51.476 --> 00:05:53.076 and Danny Beck and all of that. 00:05:53.626 --> 00:05:57.976 Um, and I felt like I had something to kind of offer that 00:05:58.316 --> 00:06:00.506 sector because of my background. 00:06:00.586 --> 00:06:06.981 Um, I felt like because the kind of dog behavior in training world is 00:06:06.981 --> 00:06:12.901 unregulated and lots of you are working as individuals businesses so you don't 00:06:12.931 --> 00:06:17.281 have a HR department you don't have like the structure that lots of other 00:06:17.391 --> 00:06:22.131 um like professions do and so my concern was I was talking to like you know my 00:06:22.131 --> 00:06:27.041 friends who were behaviorists and they didn't really know what to do like 00:06:27.041 --> 00:06:31.601 if they suspected abuse in the animal or the human client and I felt like 00:06:31.641 --> 00:06:36.996 there was a real gap there in terms of Understanding our responsibility under 00:06:37.006 --> 00:06:39.766 the legislation, you know, whichever country you're in, there will be 00:06:39.766 --> 00:06:44.236 legislation around information sharing in order to protect people and animals. 00:06:44.946 --> 00:06:48.086 Um, but also like confidence, you know, that confidence levels. 00:06:48.116 --> 00:06:51.026 And then also there's an element of risk that I was really worried that, 00:06:51.026 --> 00:06:54.636 you know, At some point, you know, some, something's going to happen to either 00:06:55.006 --> 00:06:59.526 a behaviorist, a trainer, or a client because, um, you often also work in 00:06:59.526 --> 00:07:03.196 kind of isolated areas where there's not much mobile signal and, and so I 00:07:03.196 --> 00:07:07.386 was concerned about the personal safety of my, of behaviorists and trainers, as 00:07:07.416 --> 00:07:10.006 well as the human and animal clients. 00:07:11.616 --> 00:07:13.156 So, so I set up SASTA. 00:07:13.186 --> 00:07:17.436 It's only, we've only been going since about January this year. 00:07:17.946 --> 00:07:22.156 I did a couple of years before I started doing BITS. 00:07:22.756 --> 00:07:26.176 So I did some work with the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors. 00:07:26.176 --> 00:07:27.886 I did some work with Andy. 00:07:28.181 --> 00:07:32.101 in dog centered care, and I started having kind of the conversations. 00:07:32.601 --> 00:07:39.061 A catalyst was I was invited to speak at Houses of Parliament in October 2023 00:07:39.341 --> 00:07:43.801 on a panel specifically on the use of, um, looking at the use of companion 00:07:43.801 --> 00:07:46.391 animals as a tactic of coercive control. 00:07:46.966 --> 00:07:51.386 And, um, from there, you know, that I was getting contacted, um, 00:07:51.416 --> 00:07:55.496 quite a lot to, to, um, kind of speak with people and collaborate. 00:07:55.826 --> 00:08:00.586 So I thought I needed something to, um, differentiate me from my employed job. 00:08:00.616 --> 00:08:04.366 Cause obviously I was employed and I run this, um, in my spare time. 00:08:04.396 --> 00:08:08.146 So, um, it was really important that there was something that people could go to. 00:08:08.656 --> 00:08:12.436 Um, and that's where Safeguarding Animal and Human Survivors of Sexual and Domestic 00:08:12.556 --> 00:08:14.296 Abuse kind of was born, I suppose. 00:08:14.466 --> 00:08:14.846 Wow. 00:08:15.816 --> 00:08:21.156 Speaker: That's, I mean, what is something that you find people, what do you think, 00:08:21.206 --> 00:08:23.116 what do you wish people knew about this? 00:08:23.416 --> 00:08:28.696 Because, I mean, I can totally see, like, you know, we, I mean, just listen to 00:08:28.696 --> 00:08:34.201 the news, and quite often when there's situations where people It usually feels 00:08:34.201 --> 00:08:38.851 like, okay, once they're separated and you can't, you know, then they go for what 00:08:38.851 --> 00:08:40.651 they most love and that's the children. 00:08:40.651 --> 00:08:42.061 And that's the animals, right? 00:08:42.271 --> 00:08:45.311 So I can totally see it's like, oh boy. 00:08:45.311 --> 00:08:46.811 Like I don't even wanna think about it. 00:08:47.111 --> 00:08:47.501 You know? 00:08:47.591 --> 00:08:50.671 So what are signals? 00:08:50.671 --> 00:08:51.751 Somebody could, what? 00:08:51.961 --> 00:08:56.701 Watch out for, to, you know, to help you pick up if maybe your neighbor or 00:08:57.001 --> 00:08:58.472 something's, because you know, it's, it. 00:08:59.251 --> 00:09:02.401 You might have it right in front of you in your area and wouldn't know. 00:09:02.711 --> 00:09:06.071 How can you tell or is there something that that gives it away? 00:09:07.511 --> 00:09:10.851 Speaker 2: So often it's looking at like, um, similar to how we would 00:09:10.851 --> 00:09:13.341 look at like dog behavior, has there been a change in behavior? 00:09:13.341 --> 00:09:17.056 So if you knew that person and then they've um, got into a relationship, has 00:09:17.056 --> 00:09:18.746 their behavior significantly changed? 00:09:19.176 --> 00:09:20.286 Are they more withdrawn? 00:09:20.326 --> 00:09:21.596 Are they isolated? 00:09:21.646 --> 00:09:24.896 Are they, um, are they not able to come anymore because they're 00:09:24.896 --> 00:09:26.466 not being allowed to pay? 00:09:26.466 --> 00:09:28.976 You know, they don't have access to their finances, etc. 00:09:29.376 --> 00:09:35.876 And they might use language, which is like, um, So, to say the perpetrator, so 00:09:35.876 --> 00:09:39.586 they might say things like, so if we use a fake name, I'm just trying, I don't want 00:09:39.586 --> 00:09:41.076 to offend anyone by using a fake name. 00:09:41.286 --> 00:09:44.276 If I use a fake name like, I use my grandad because I love 00:09:44.276 --> 00:09:45.436 him to bits and he won't mind. 00:09:46.036 --> 00:09:51.896 So he's called John, so if they said something like, um, oh John doesn't like 00:09:51.896 --> 00:09:56.766 it when I do this, this and this, or, or they act like worried about what would 00:09:56.766 --> 00:10:00.976 happen if they did something that that person wouldn't agree with or wouldn't 00:10:00.986 --> 00:10:08.091 like, um, We have to think way deeper than any sort of physical sign, because 00:10:08.841 --> 00:10:12.121 we're still quite, there's this myth that domestic abuse is only physical 00:10:12.121 --> 00:10:16.431 violence, and there's the broken bone and the bruised eye, and the reality 00:10:16.431 --> 00:10:22.421 is that there, there can be violence, um, the highest risk indicator though 00:10:22.421 --> 00:10:27.261 is coercive control, so that's where they limit your life, so your ability 00:10:27.261 --> 00:10:31.411 to act independently is compromised, so your ability to work without. 00:10:31.696 --> 00:10:35.456 You know, work at all, but if you are allowed to work, is it really stressful? 00:10:35.456 --> 00:10:37.156 Do they contact, monitor you? 00:10:37.196 --> 00:10:41.926 Do they contact, always harass you at work, like by phone or email? 00:10:41.966 --> 00:10:44.686 Or do they accuse you of affairs with your co worker? 00:10:44.696 --> 00:10:46.416 You know, those kinds of things. 00:10:46.456 --> 00:10:48.026 And then economic abuse as well. 00:10:48.761 --> 00:10:52.821 Um, where it comes under that, but also around, especially for the pets, things 00:10:52.821 --> 00:10:54.541 like, are they allowed to go to the vet? 00:10:54.631 --> 00:10:56.781 Are they allowed to be treated for parasites? 00:10:56.881 --> 00:10:59.931 Are they allowed to be fed the food that you want to feed them? 00:10:59.931 --> 00:11:04.601 You know, and so there's lots of like small indicators that add 00:11:04.601 --> 00:11:08.811 up, but my biggest, my biggest thing I want behaviorists to 00:11:08.811 --> 00:11:11.366 understand is Or maybe there's two. 00:11:11.676 --> 00:11:16.026 One is that it is a you issue, because the biggest barrier I find is that 00:11:16.066 --> 00:11:19.576 people go that's got nothing to do with me, like, I don't deal with that. 00:11:19.586 --> 00:11:20.916 I work with dogs. 00:11:20.936 --> 00:11:22.556 I don't have anything to do with that. 00:11:22.586 --> 00:11:23.496 The reality is 00:11:25.766 --> 00:11:27.626 that domestic abuse is extremely common. 00:11:27.976 --> 00:11:32.186 So one in three women in their lifetime, I personally think it's higher than that, 00:11:32.186 --> 00:11:38.756 but that's the statistic that we know, um, experience domestic abuse, one in six men. 00:11:39.056 --> 00:11:39.386 So. 00:11:40.521 --> 00:11:44.991 If you have a client and an animal and there's domestic abuse, you 00:11:45.011 --> 00:11:46.541 are working with domestic abuse. 00:11:46.541 --> 00:11:47.661 That's the reality of it. 00:11:47.901 --> 00:11:52.541 Whether that's current or whether that was 10 years ago and that dog's still affected 00:11:52.641 --> 00:11:55.441 um, after, you know, being removed from the situation, you are working 00:11:55.441 --> 00:11:57.261 with it in some way, shape or form. 00:11:57.511 --> 00:12:00.836 So first of all, we need to Get that barrier down that 00:12:00.866 --> 00:12:02.406 it does, it does involve me. 00:12:02.406 --> 00:12:05.766 I do have a responsibility to be an active bystander. 00:12:06.226 --> 00:12:10.586 But my other big thing is I'm not expecting people to be experts in this and 00:12:10.586 --> 00:12:13.956 we shouldn't expect people to be experts in this because that's not your role. 00:12:14.236 --> 00:12:18.636 So what my, what I'm trying to do is um, educate people on spotting 00:12:18.646 --> 00:12:21.456 the signs and then knowing who to pass that information to. 00:12:21.656 --> 00:12:23.241 And that's all we want is, is, is, is. 00:12:23.571 --> 00:12:27.301 Your gut to tell you that something's not right, you either ask or you, 00:12:27.341 --> 00:12:32.391 you pass the information on and then you've done your bit, because when we 00:12:32.391 --> 00:12:38.681 work with domestic abuse, um, in my sector, we work with multi agencies. 00:12:38.691 --> 00:12:43.481 So we work with police, social services, education, health, um, you know, 00:12:43.591 --> 00:12:47.961 anyone and everyone, and everyone holds a different piece of the puzzle. 00:12:48.626 --> 00:12:52.746 Not everyone has all of the picture, and so you might have a piece of 00:12:52.786 --> 00:12:56.176 the puzzle that's really helps build that picture, helps with that case, 00:12:56.186 --> 00:12:58.516 helps with, um, safety planning. 00:12:58.746 --> 00:13:02.616 And if we don't know that, then we can't include that in our risk 00:13:02.616 --> 00:13:05.861 assessment, in our, you know, our ability to save and protect people. 00:13:05.861 --> 00:13:11.001 So I think that, that there's that, um, I want people to feel a 00:13:11.001 --> 00:13:13.731 responsibility to, to this subject. 00:13:14.071 --> 00:13:17.491 And then I want them to know that it's okay that not to be the expert and 00:13:17.491 --> 00:13:19.351 that this is where you go with it. 00:13:19.751 --> 00:13:23.781 Um, so I will mention that we, I'm just finishing up. 00:13:24.056 --> 00:13:27.516 The, there will be a new qualification for pet professionals. 00:13:27.976 --> 00:13:32.066 Um, it's the level two award in safeguarding for the pet professionals. 00:13:32.386 --> 00:13:36.716 It's Ofqual regulated, which means that it's a, it's a proper qualification. 00:13:37.196 --> 00:13:42.396 Um, and that means it's regulated by an awarding body in the UK. 00:13:42.396 --> 00:13:46.696 So it's not just a kind of a course that I've written and kind of out there. 00:13:47.056 --> 00:13:50.946 It's a, it's a, it's a gone through a rigorous quality internal and 00:13:50.946 --> 00:13:53.266 external quality assurance procedure. 00:13:53.401 --> 00:14:00.961 And that's going to be run by IPET network and myself, um, in collaboration. 00:14:00.961 --> 00:14:05.811 So it's an international, it will be available internationally, um, which 00:14:05.811 --> 00:14:09.261 is really important as well, because we want this to be a standardized thing, 00:14:09.271 --> 00:14:12.961 similar to how we're trying to get people to do their canine first aid. 00:14:13.271 --> 00:14:15.251 Um, and if you, and our thing is. 00:14:15.941 --> 00:14:18.951 In our sector, in my sector, you have to repeat your safeguarding 00:14:18.951 --> 00:14:20.841 training every five years. 00:14:21.321 --> 00:14:24.881 Um, so we want to kind of model that for any professionals. 00:14:25.141 --> 00:14:28.121 Um, and so by pet professionals, we mean, you know, dog trainers 00:14:28.121 --> 00:14:32.081 and behaviorists, but we also mean groomers and dog daycare and dog 00:14:32.091 --> 00:14:35.001 walkers and, um, vet receptionists. 00:14:35.001 --> 00:14:39.036 And, you know, um, not, This one isn't specific for vets because they need a 00:14:39.046 --> 00:14:46.136 much more medical, a different, different type of course, um, but it, for that 00:14:46.436 --> 00:14:48.286 receptionist, it would be a good one. 00:14:48.646 --> 00:14:54.116 So that's coming out within the next um, month or two, um, and then I'm also 00:14:54.526 --> 00:14:58.486 creating a, um, That's the version of it that's an e learning, but that wouldn't 00:14:58.516 --> 00:15:03.806 be a qualification because, again, because of the strict nature of that, you have 00:15:03.806 --> 00:15:07.186 to kind of come to all of the hours and I need to make sure that people are there. 00:15:07.896 --> 00:15:13.246 It's only a day course so it's not a huge taxing qualification, but it is 00:15:13.556 --> 00:15:16.536 important that we meet those requirements. 00:15:16.846 --> 00:15:21.856 And then the e learning will be available to do in your own time kind of thing. 00:15:23.316 --> 00:15:25.626 So those are the two kind of main things. 00:15:26.086 --> 00:15:26.936 products coming out. 00:15:27.656 --> 00:15:27.896 Well, 00:15:27.896 --> 00:15:30.576 Speaker: let us know so we can, you know, distribute it. 00:15:30.936 --> 00:15:38.106 And so, so how, how does it typically, or is there something that gives away that 00:15:38.106 --> 00:15:43.686 a dog might have been subjected to abuse in some form, like of that kind of abuse? 00:15:43.726 --> 00:15:47.516 Like I didn't even, I don't know, like sexual abuse in animals. 00:15:47.516 --> 00:15:48.746 Like, I was like, who would do that? 00:15:48.756 --> 00:15:50.246 Like, I don't even get this, right? 00:15:50.556 --> 00:15:54.816 So, but I mean, if you, because you were just saying that it's not 00:15:54.876 --> 00:15:57.086 just when they're in the situation. 00:15:57.751 --> 00:16:00.781 Right, it actually, you know, impacts them way beyond that. 00:16:00.941 --> 00:16:03.451 So, so is there something that would give it away? 00:16:03.451 --> 00:16:04.251 Or, you know? 00:16:05.031 --> 00:16:08.691 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's a really good point because when you speak 00:16:08.691 --> 00:16:12.326 to human survivors of Um, you know, abuse. 00:16:12.366 --> 00:16:16.556 They often say that the psychological and emotional abuse is what stays 00:16:16.556 --> 00:16:18.456 with them and affects them the most. 00:16:18.716 --> 00:16:23.126 You know, they talk about broken bones heal, bruises heal, but if you've 00:16:23.126 --> 00:16:28.696 been told for, you know, months, days, months, years, that you're worthless 00:16:28.696 --> 00:16:31.636 and that no one loves you and no one cares about you and no one's going 00:16:31.636 --> 00:16:34.626 to believe you and if you leave them then they're going to, you know, hurt 00:16:34.696 --> 00:16:36.096 themselves or they're going to hurt you. 00:16:36.501 --> 00:16:40.591 That stays with them for like a long time, and that's where the support 00:16:40.611 --> 00:16:44.381 comes, the specialist support comes in then to help on that journey. 00:16:44.381 --> 00:16:50.141 But I think having worked with children and young adults affected and, and 00:16:50.151 --> 00:16:54.881 victims, survivors of domestic abuse, I feel like animal, animal, animals that 00:16:54.881 --> 00:17:01.796 live in that environment are, um, You know, exposed to that same, um, harm 00:17:02.136 --> 00:17:05.656 and therefore the psychological impact can be quite similar to the children. 00:17:05.866 --> 00:17:10.816 So again, it's a lot of kind of a behavioral, um, behavioral impact. 00:17:10.836 --> 00:17:15.166 So do they, are they fearful of that one person in that family? 00:17:15.166 --> 00:17:18.606 So if you're working with a family and they are fearful of that, normally 00:17:19.166 --> 00:17:23.446 the male, um, that could be a sign that there's abuse happening there. 00:17:23.976 --> 00:17:26.716 But not always, because like with children. 00:17:27.376 --> 00:17:31.486 Because we have such strong bonds with our animals, sometimes they go 00:17:31.496 --> 00:17:39.166 into like, um, like a, like, Stockholm Syndrome type, um, bond, trauma bonding. 00:17:39.416 --> 00:17:44.436 So they actually sometimes are closer to the perpetrator. 00:17:44.486 --> 00:17:45.469 That's tricky, isn't it? 00:17:45.469 --> 00:17:47.546 So it's a really tricky You can't be a bad 00:17:47.606 --> 00:17:49.216 Speaker: person if the dog loves them, right? 00:17:49.496 --> 00:17:51.306 Speaker 2: Yes, which is so incorrect. 00:17:51.386 --> 00:17:54.356 And then you might see a lot of appeasement behaviours, which is really 00:17:54.396 --> 00:17:57.566 difficult because some, some animals are more appeasing naturally as their 00:17:57.606 --> 00:17:59.416 personality, like my dog is very appeasy. 00:17:59.826 --> 00:18:06.096 So, you know, but I think what I try and do in my training is say, Don't 00:18:06.166 --> 00:18:08.956 act necessarily on just one indicator. 00:18:09.666 --> 00:18:14.716 It's really about building that picture of, of things and the person 00:18:14.716 --> 00:18:18.296 might directly tell you that's, you know, that's the biggest indicator 00:18:18.296 --> 00:18:19.606 and then you would need to act. 00:18:20.046 --> 00:18:24.836 But it might be that, you know, say oh they missed a session and when they came 00:18:24.876 --> 00:18:29.606 they came next time they were saying they they were something didn't sit right 00:18:29.606 --> 00:18:31.896 about what they were saying about why they missed it and or they might link 00:18:31.906 --> 00:18:36.516 it to oh um my partner kind of really wanted to spend more time with me because 00:18:36.576 --> 00:18:41.526 he or she said that um, you I spend too much time on the dog, or I spend 00:18:41.526 --> 00:18:45.792 too much money on the dog, and, or the perpetrator will purposefully undermine 00:18:45.792 --> 00:18:48.362 behavior plans or modification plans. 00:18:48.362 --> 00:18:54.166 So if you're not seeing like, progress, um, then it might be because the person 00:18:54.166 --> 00:18:59.826 is intentionally disrupting that as a tactic of maintaining power and control 00:18:59.986 --> 00:19:02.346 over the, the family including the pet. 00:19:02.686 --> 00:19:06.501 So, So, there might be physical signs in the animal. 00:19:06.501 --> 00:19:11.911 We know about pain, and pain can indicate, can come through a behavioural indicator. 00:19:12.241 --> 00:19:17.101 So, if they are abusing the animal in some way that isn't, um, a massive, 00:19:17.741 --> 00:19:23.031 um, like, broken leg or something like that, there might be pain in other areas 00:19:23.031 --> 00:19:24.921 that might be indicating there's abuse. 00:19:25.371 --> 00:19:27.921 Um, and then it's kind of that behavioural, behavioural 00:19:27.921 --> 00:19:29.231 side of things as well. 00:19:29.411 --> 00:19:32.406 But I go into a lot more detail in, uh in the training. 00:19:33.886 --> 00:19:36.706 Speaker: So do you see, is there, you were saying that this is, 00:19:36.826 --> 00:19:40.166 you know, an international, are there sort of differences? 00:19:40.186 --> 00:19:44.396 Is there like, you know, in the way these cases are treated from, you know, 00:19:44.526 --> 00:19:50.286 I don't know, in this, like by the, by the authorities or is there, do you find, 00:19:50.456 --> 00:19:52.886 is this, is this how this plays out? 00:19:52.906 --> 00:19:55.506 Is this different, let's say in the States versus Europe or 00:19:55.536 --> 00:19:57.016 are there differences locally? 00:19:57.786 --> 00:20:04.581 Speaker 2: So in terms of perpetration, Yes, so how someone might perpetrate 00:20:04.581 --> 00:20:09.001 their abuse might have, um, be influenced by their cultural background. 00:20:09.441 --> 00:20:14.791 Um, so for example, with forced marriage, um, that's something that's more common 00:20:14.801 --> 00:20:17.711 in, in kind of South Asian communities. 00:20:18.051 --> 00:20:20.441 Um, that's not to say it only happens there, it does happen in kind of 00:20:20.471 --> 00:20:24.451 Orthodox Jewish, um, um, communities. 00:20:24.781 --> 00:20:28.371 It happens, um, in some communities, to be honest. 00:20:28.731 --> 00:20:35.436 Um, it's really important that It's not, it's about saying cultural acceptance, so 00:20:35.456 --> 00:20:38.636 accepting someone's culture and someone's beliefs is really important, you know, 00:20:38.736 --> 00:20:44.486 um, but, um, Jasvinder Sanghera, who is the, um, founder of a charity called 00:20:44.486 --> 00:20:48.976 Karma Nirvana, and they support, in the UK, they support, um, survivors of forced 00:20:48.976 --> 00:20:55.026 marriage, um, and she says, she, she said in a, in a TED Talk, and I found 00:20:55.026 --> 00:20:59.146 it really poignant, she said, cultural acceptance does not mean accepting the 00:20:59.146 --> 00:21:04.851 unacceptable, So abuse is unacceptable and there is no excuse for abuse. 00:21:04.861 --> 00:21:09.361 So, um, saying it's part of my religion or it's part of my 00:21:09.361 --> 00:21:13.791 culture is not a valid excuse for hurting or abusing someone else. 00:21:14.171 --> 00:21:19.451 Um, so with forced marriage and, um, especially in the UK, um, 00:21:19.541 --> 00:21:24.041 perpetrators will use kind of the, our immigration system as an 00:21:24.241 --> 00:21:25.961 additional perpetration tactic. 00:21:26.351 --> 00:21:31.171 So they'll, um, They'll kind of say, um, if you leave me, then I'll tell the 00:21:31.171 --> 00:21:34.451 authorities that you're here illegally, or I won't let you have your pass, 00:21:34.841 --> 00:21:39.091 or, or, especially if they've married a British national, that can become, 00:21:39.311 --> 00:21:43.111 um, quite difficult, um, especially in the UK with our benefit system, 00:21:43.341 --> 00:21:47.201 who can and can't access benefits, and therefore there's additional barriers 00:21:47.501 --> 00:21:50.621 for leaving for certain survivors based on their intersecting identities. 00:21:52.061 --> 00:21:57.211 Um, so for example with LGBTQ plus survivors as well, there's an additional 00:21:57.241 --> 00:22:02.941 element where the perpetrator might use their identity as a, as a control tactic. 00:22:02.941 --> 00:22:08.241 So if, say, someone is gay but not yet out, they will threaten to out them as a 00:22:08.251 --> 00:22:14.281 way of maintaining power and control, or, um, they know that, you know, because our 00:22:14.321 --> 00:22:20.746 systems are institutionally transphobic, homophobic, racist and sexist, that 00:22:20.746 --> 00:22:26.426 they can manipulate this, um, systems as an arm of their power and control. 00:22:26.846 --> 00:22:32.246 Um, so there is, there is, um, and disability as well. 00:22:32.246 --> 00:22:36.266 So like if you had a, if you were a deaf survivor and you had a hearing partner 00:22:36.266 --> 00:22:41.016 who was perpetrating abuse, you ought to think about how difficult, like 00:22:41.036 --> 00:22:45.136 additional barriers for that person to tell someone because someone might not. 00:22:45.481 --> 00:22:50.021 be able to, um, you know, understand British Sign Language or any other form 00:22:50.021 --> 00:22:53.131 of sign language, but also they're not going to be able to, like, phone someone 00:22:53.131 --> 00:22:55.191 in the same way to say they need help. 00:22:55.551 --> 00:23:00.641 Um, and so it's looking at all these different dynamics of abuse. 00:23:01.116 --> 00:23:04.396 and thinking about vulnerability in a different way. 00:23:05.736 --> 00:23:09.076 So yeah, it does, so in terms of perpetration, it can definitely 00:23:09.956 --> 00:23:14.336 change based on kind of geography and background and all those types of things. 00:23:14.596 --> 00:23:18.186 And it, but in terms of response, it does as well. 00:23:18.196 --> 00:23:22.726 So we know that, I mean, police response to domestic abuse is 00:23:22.726 --> 00:23:24.336 fairly poor across the board. 00:23:24.976 --> 00:23:28.576 Um, I wouldn't say like any country has it spot on. 00:23:28.586 --> 00:23:28.866 And for 00:23:28.866 --> 00:23:31.316 Speaker: the animals, like if you notice something with 00:23:31.336 --> 00:23:34.036 animals, like where would you go? 00:23:34.856 --> 00:23:39.706 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, so, um, obviously in the UK, um, and many countries have some 00:23:39.716 --> 00:23:42.336 form of animal protection organizations. 00:23:42.336 --> 00:23:47.359 So obviously in the UK we have the RSPCA, the Royal Society Animals. 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:53.301 Um, and Um, there are specific charities now that will help those who are 00:23:53.301 --> 00:23:58.201 fleeing domestic abuse and want, um, and aren't able to take their pet. 00:23:58.231 --> 00:24:04.551 So there's a couple in the UK like, um, Dog Stress Freedom Program, there's 00:24:04.551 --> 00:24:08.761 Cats Protection Lifeline, um, and there are a few localised ones as well. 00:24:09.091 --> 00:24:13.901 But then, but then there is a thing where, if, for example, with dogs, if you've got 00:24:13.911 --> 00:24:18.941 a dog that's heavily traumatised, removing them from their non abusive family. 00:24:19.421 --> 00:24:22.671 Caregiver, which they often have a very strong bond with. 00:24:23.131 --> 00:24:26.311 It's a traumatic to remove them from each other, um, for 00:24:26.321 --> 00:24:27.911 the animal and for the human. 00:24:28.501 --> 00:24:32.441 But then where, my thing is, those then animals get put 00:24:32.441 --> 00:24:35.141 into kennels or foster, etc. 00:24:35.631 --> 00:24:38.971 And they need specialist behavioral care because it's 00:24:38.981 --> 00:24:41.576 not your average dog Going into, 00:24:42.686 --> 00:24:46.876 Speaker: what's the, like, I've heard this that a lot of, I mean, I definitely have 00:24:46.876 --> 00:24:51.236 heard this, that there's a lot of sort of safe houses for women, you know, where 00:24:51.236 --> 00:24:52.826 they're not allowed to bring their dog. 00:24:52.896 --> 00:24:54.026 And I'm like, like, what? 00:24:54.956 --> 00:24:57.916 You know, it's like, you might as well just bloody invite 00:24:57.916 --> 00:24:58.826 the guy along, you know? 00:24:58.826 --> 00:25:04.026 So it's like, I don't like, what, I mean, is there, is there a reason, like, is 00:25:04.026 --> 00:25:05.906 there a reason that kind of makes sense? 00:25:07.036 --> 00:25:08.376 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is. 00:25:09.196 --> 00:25:14.586 When someone flees to refuge, which is the crisis emergency accommodation, 00:25:15.066 --> 00:25:20.661 that's because there's a serious risk of life limiting injury or death. 00:25:20.671 --> 00:25:27.071 So it's a really serious and, um, fractious situation, um, and 00:25:27.071 --> 00:25:28.481 a really dangerous situation. 00:25:28.481 --> 00:25:32.711 So lots of people think that when someone leaves the safety increases, 00:25:32.961 --> 00:25:36.531 but actually the, what actually happens is the danger increases. 00:25:36.541 --> 00:25:38.561 That's when it starts to get dangerous, right? 00:25:38.911 --> 00:25:39.531 Exactly. 00:25:39.531 --> 00:25:39.911 Yeah. 00:25:39.981 --> 00:25:40.751 But that's the thing, it's 00:25:40.751 --> 00:25:43.421 Speaker: like, why can't they, like, if you have a shelter like that, 00:25:43.431 --> 00:25:44.871 why can't people bring their dog? 00:25:44.881 --> 00:25:45.401 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:25:45.701 --> 00:25:46.551 Speaker: So, so. 00:25:47.661 --> 00:25:51.211 Speaker 2: I think, firstly, when you go into refuge, you're not normally 00:25:51.211 --> 00:25:54.751 housed in the area in which you live, so you'll move geographically, because 00:25:54.751 --> 00:25:58.791 obviously that's an unsafe area now, even though perpetrators will stalk. 00:25:58.991 --> 00:26:09.051 Um, Safe Housing Refuges normally are multi occupancy, so you, it's not just 00:26:09.051 --> 00:26:13.301 one person with their children, it's like multiple people, so you have to 00:26:13.301 --> 00:26:18.431 cater for the fact that that person That person is, might be fleeing with their 00:26:18.431 --> 00:26:23.301 dog because they've got this really strong bond, but that person that's in the room 00:26:23.301 --> 00:26:27.101 next to them has had the perpetrator use a dog as a weapon on that person. 00:26:27.101 --> 00:26:28.021 So they're scared of dogs. 00:26:28.021 --> 00:26:31.891 So you can't make, you have to be trauma informed to everyone. 00:26:31.891 --> 00:26:35.651 You can't make an environment which is unwelcoming to all survivors. 00:26:36.431 --> 00:26:41.666 And then some survivors or children might have, um, You know, allergies, or, 00:26:41.966 --> 00:26:43.456 because these, the safe houses are short. 00:26:43.696 --> 00:26:45.986 Fair enough, you know, but I'm sort of 00:26:45.986 --> 00:26:50.386 Speaker: thinking, if, if, if you tell me, well, you can come, but your dog 00:26:50.406 --> 00:26:52.156 can't, well, then what am I going to do? 00:26:52.156 --> 00:26:54.626 I'm going to bloody stay where I am, and I'm probably going to 00:26:54.626 --> 00:26:55.816 get killed in the process, right? 00:26:56.056 --> 00:27:00.641 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so the statistics Those with animals, um, stay longer 00:27:00.811 --> 00:27:03.961 than those who don't have animals, particularly because of that, which 00:27:03.961 --> 00:27:06.791 is where the foster schemes come in, the ones I've just mentioned. 00:27:07.151 --> 00:27:11.951 But if you wanted, if you wanted to leave, um, into a refuge, then 00:27:12.141 --> 00:27:15.521 the foster, then there are these programs which will foster the animal. 00:27:15.521 --> 00:27:19.371 You get the dog returned to you, or the cat returned to you, once 00:27:19.371 --> 00:27:20.761 you're in safe accommodation. 00:27:21.316 --> 00:27:26.976 Um, I also think, you know, if you look at it from a dog centric point of 00:27:26.976 --> 00:27:31.056 view, it's really stressful for like, if you're a traumatized dog, to then 00:27:31.056 --> 00:27:35.536 be taken from your home but into a multi occupancy home with other dogs. 00:27:36.046 --> 00:27:39.516 You might have a reality, it's just, I personally think it would be a really 00:27:39.516 --> 00:27:46.506 untenable situation and increase stress for, but also Lots of our dogs are quite 00:27:46.506 --> 00:27:52.196 identifiable So the whole point of a safe house is you don't really go outside 00:27:52.286 --> 00:27:54.036 You don't tell anyone where you are. 00:27:54.626 --> 00:27:57.826 It would be really unfortunate if like from for example, my dog He's 00:27:57.826 --> 00:28:02.596 a split faced border collie with three toes He's really identifiable. 00:28:02.746 --> 00:28:08.841 So if I fled to a refuge And then, um, the refuge worker took him out for a walk, and 00:28:09.021 --> 00:28:13.761 just by chance, you know, someone who knew me, they go back and they say to Bob, oh 00:28:13.761 --> 00:28:18.731 I think I just saw Bodrick in this house, just blown, not just your safe house, 00:28:18.731 --> 00:28:20.891 but all of the people in that refuge. 00:28:21.901 --> 00:28:26.161 So I think that there is pros and cons, and there are trials happening 00:28:26.161 --> 00:28:32.081 in Canada and the States around creating some sort of structure which 00:28:32.111 --> 00:28:36.631 can house people and animals together, but you've also got to think, some 00:28:36.631 --> 00:28:38.061 people don't just have one dog. 00:28:38.596 --> 00:28:39.476 Or one cat. 00:28:39.726 --> 00:28:42.846 They have multiple, and sometimes that's a tactic of the perpetrator. 00:28:42.846 --> 00:28:47.176 The perpetrator will create, give lots of animals, so then you've got a house 00:28:47.176 --> 00:28:50.746 with lots of animals, and you just can't take all of them, and then you've got 00:28:50.746 --> 00:28:54.886 people with horses, or people with farm animals, and, and so there's different, 00:28:54.916 --> 00:28:59.846 there has to be different structures for those specific, or exotic pets, you know? 00:29:00.196 --> 00:29:04.866 Um, so it's a really hard, it's, there's no good solution, 00:29:05.006 --> 00:29:07.166 but there are efforts to try. 00:29:09.311 --> 00:29:14.141 Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking like, well, the point 00:29:14.141 --> 00:29:17.851 of attack is also like, why do perpetrators do this in the first place? 00:29:17.931 --> 00:29:20.811 You know, you're thinking, well, that would be kind of the easy solution, right? 00:29:21.261 --> 00:29:25.251 Well, not easy, obviously, you know, but that would really solve it all, right? 00:29:25.661 --> 00:29:29.816 So yeah, that's a whole topic for a different conversation. 00:29:29.816 --> 00:29:31.582 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. 00:29:31.582 --> 00:29:33.936 Yeah, that's very complex. 00:29:34.496 --> 00:29:39.666 Very complex and very deep, deep rooted myths around why people perpetrated, 00:29:39.926 --> 00:29:41.686 perpetrate violence and abuse as well. 00:29:42.186 --> 00:29:44.876 Um, yeah, so happy 00:29:44.986 --> 00:29:46.827 Speaker: to come back to talk about that. 00:29:46.827 --> 00:29:47.185 Absolutely. 00:29:47.185 --> 00:29:51.476 And so in the meantime, where can people go and get in touch with 00:29:51.476 --> 00:29:54.921 you, find out more about you, your programs, the work you do? 00:29:55.851 --> 00:29:59.691 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, um, I've got the website, which is www. 00:29:59.981 --> 00:30:00.591 sasta. 00:30:00.601 --> 00:30:03.231 org, so it's S A H S D A. 00:30:03.271 --> 00:30:05.491 I'm sure we can pop it in the, in the newsletter. 00:30:05.751 --> 00:30:07.114 It'll be right below you. 00:30:07.114 --> 00:30:10.921 Yeah, and I'm happy to give you my email address as well. 00:30:11.301 --> 00:30:11.998 Um, yeah. 00:30:12.856 --> 00:30:16.696 With regards to the upcoming training that will be released on the website, and 00:30:16.701 --> 00:30:21.546 I will be setting up a new, um, specific Facebook group for those who've done the 00:30:21.546 --> 00:30:26.996 qualification and done the e-learning so that, um, those, they have somewhere 00:30:26.996 --> 00:30:30.446 to come if they, you know, they have their first inkling after being on the 00:30:30.446 --> 00:30:31.706 training that something's not right. 00:30:31.711 --> 00:30:33.956 They've got a space to come and ask questions. 00:30:34.346 --> 00:30:37.886 Um, I can do like little lives in there around anything specific. 00:30:38.336 --> 00:30:38.696 Um. 00:30:39.551 --> 00:30:42.751 So that, that will be set up as well eventually, hopefully, 00:30:42.791 --> 00:30:43.551 in the next few months. 00:30:44.481 --> 00:30:44.861 Speaker: Awesome. 00:30:45.221 --> 00:30:49.611 Well, thank you so much for, you know, really pointing our noses to 00:30:49.611 --> 00:30:53.151 a topic that's probably right under our noses and so easy to overlook if 00:30:53.151 --> 00:30:54.381 you're not, if you're not informed. 00:30:54.391 --> 00:30:55.401 So thank you so much. 00:30:55.821 --> 00:30:56.541 Speaker 2: You're so welcome. 00:30:56.541 --> 00:30:57.841 Thank you very much for having me. 00:30:58.483 --> 00:30:59.713 Thanks so much for listening. 00:31:00.233 --> 00:31:04.533 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:31:04.633 --> 00:31:06.413 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:31:07.203 --> 00:31:10.693 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:31:11.123 --> 00:31:16.693 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:31:16.793 --> 00:31:19.163 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:31:19.163 --> 00:31:22.893 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:31:23.313 --> 00:31:24.453 I'd love an introduction. 00:31:24.933 --> 00:31:26.763 Email me at Anke. 00:31:27.033 --> 00:31:31.268 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.