1 00:00:01,068 --> 00:00:06,268 Greetings and welcome to the latest episode of the Vernon Richard Show. 2 00:00:06,268 --> 00:00:09,628 And we have some alternative names for that thanks to James Thomas. 3 00:00:09,628 --> 00:00:11,368 Thank you very much. 4 00:00:11,368 --> 00:00:20,808 And they are the Vern and Richard Show, the Vern -en Richard Show. 5 00:00:20,808 --> 00:00:24,928 So Vern, apostrophe, N, apostrophe, Richard. 6 00:00:25,888 --> 00:00:28,648 And then there's one diabolical one, which is awful. 7 00:00:28,648 --> 00:00:29,828 We can't go with it. 8 00:00:29,828 --> 00:00:30,764 It's just bad. 9 00:00:30,764 --> 00:00:33,594 It's Vern On Richard Show. 10 00:00:33,594 --> 00:00:34,683 Dreadful name. 11 00:00:34,683 --> 00:00:35,604 Can't go without. 12 00:00:35,604 --> 00:00:36,580 Dreadful. 13 00:00:36,580 --> 00:00:38,000 got all the letters in it. 14 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,900 Like it's perfect. 15 00:00:39,900 --> 00:00:44,588 It makes it sound like it's my show and you're just on it. 16 00:00:44,588 --> 00:00:48,488 Absolute classic from you Bradshaw. 17 00:00:48,488 --> 00:00:50,864 Friendly tester my ass! 18 00:00:50,864 --> 00:00:51,544 here it is! 19 00:00:51,544 --> 00:00:53,764 That's the first instance of that. 20 00:00:53,764 --> 00:00:56,634 How many times have I heard that? 21 00:00:56,634 --> 00:00:57,452 Yeah. 22 00:00:57,452 --> 00:00:57,912 4? 23 00:00:57,912 --> 00:00:58,832 Whatever it is? 24 00:00:58,832 --> 00:01:00,002 I don't know, 3, 4? 25 00:01:00,002 --> 00:01:02,532 Whatever it is, I don't know, I've lost count. 26 00:01:02,532 --> 00:01:05,422 Anyway, we failed with the intro. 27 00:01:05,422 --> 00:01:06,042 Let's try this again. 28 00:01:06,042 --> 00:01:07,092 Welcome everyone! 29 00:01:07,092 --> 00:01:08,752 Sorry for that rambly intro. 30 00:01:08,752 --> 00:01:09,996 I'm Vernon. 31 00:01:10,476 --> 00:01:11,816 And I'm Richard. 32 00:01:12,620 --> 00:01:17,420 And yeah, we've been busy since the last episode. 33 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:19,160 We're getting back on track with things. 34 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,260 We're starting to build a bit of a routine, which is nice. 35 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,200 It's been busy since we've last been on the pod. 36 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:34,640 Rich has been off to very cool conferences and I've been doing busy stuff at work. 37 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,540 So I think we're gonna spend most of the time talking about what Rich has been up 38 00:01:38,540 --> 00:01:40,860 to and what he's got at the conference. 39 00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:42,920 to trigger the topics, I think. 40 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,914 Just generally like, you 41 00:01:44,914 --> 00:01:48,354 Promote what was a really good event, you know, because I think everyone should 42 00:01:48,354 --> 00:01:50,474 definitely go to this event if they get chance. 43 00:01:50,474 --> 00:01:54,014 And also, I think there was great topics that we can, me and you, can come up with 44 00:01:54,014 --> 00:01:55,354 conversation about. 45 00:01:55,354 --> 00:02:00,594 And also just to set the scene for people listening and watching, you will know that 46 00:02:00,594 --> 00:02:02,562 me and Vernon are fans of... 47 00:02:02,562 --> 00:02:07,221 football and we support very different teams, almost arch enemies. 48 00:02:07,402 --> 00:02:12,412 But our teams are both playing right now as we're recording. 49 00:02:12,412 --> 00:02:18,142 So if you suddenly get interrupted with a yay or a woohoo or disappointment, it 50 00:02:18,142 --> 00:02:21,042 might be because our teams aren't doing so great. 51 00:02:21,042 --> 00:02:23,882 And especially as it's the Liverpool Derby that's currently happening. 52 00:02:23,882 --> 00:02:24,290 So. 53 00:02:24,290 --> 00:02:30,070 And even worse, hopefully we won't be on long enough for this, but if you hear a 54 00:02:30,070 --> 00:02:34,090 random, Hey Rich, or Hey Vern then you'll know. 55 00:02:34,090 --> 00:02:35,990 You'll know the results. 56 00:02:36,386 --> 00:02:39,436 Yeah, something's gone wrong if we're still on at the end of that. 57 00:02:39,436 --> 00:02:41,126 But let's see. 58 00:02:41,406 --> 00:02:48,266 So yeah, the conference I'm talking about is I went further north to Leeds at the 59 00:02:48,266 --> 00:02:49,226 weekend. 60 00:02:49,226 --> 00:02:49,966 At the weekend? 61 00:02:49,966 --> 00:02:50,846 No, it's not the weekend. 62 00:02:50,846 --> 00:02:52,346 It was on Tuesday. 63 00:02:52,566 --> 00:02:55,866 To the Leeds testing Atelier. 64 00:02:56,246 --> 00:02:58,036 That's just reminded me, Verdeen. 65 00:02:58,036 --> 00:02:59,086 When was the first... 66 00:02:59,086 --> 00:03:03,162 Did you know what the word Atelier meant when you saw the name? 67 00:03:03,162 --> 00:03:05,922 looked it up but I've since forgotten and I'm going to quickly do it now. 68 00:03:05,922 --> 00:03:07,106 Do you know what it means? 69 00:03:07,106 --> 00:03:11,546 No, not at all, but it was the fact that that event came out was the first thing 70 00:03:11,546 --> 00:03:12,346 that made me think of it. 71 00:03:12,346 --> 00:03:18,346 I know in French it means workshop, but I didn't know if it had a different meaning. 72 00:03:18,434 --> 00:03:23,134 private workshop or studio of a professional artist in the fine or 73 00:03:23,134 --> 00:03:25,234 decorative arts or an architect. 74 00:03:25,234 --> 00:03:29,194 Where a principal, master, and a number of assistants, students, and apprentices can 75 00:03:29,194 --> 00:03:33,054 work together, producing fine art or visual art released under the master's 76 00:03:33,054 --> 00:03:34,934 name or supervision. 77 00:03:34,934 --> 00:03:35,454 Sick. 78 00:03:35,454 --> 00:03:38,498 I didn't even, I didn't even, how did I forget that? 79 00:03:38,498 --> 00:03:43,938 So anyone listening to this, who's not been to the Atelier, one of the things 80 00:03:43,938 --> 00:03:47,618 that they do is they make all the signs themselves the night before. 81 00:03:47,618 --> 00:03:52,158 So people go the night before and you make the signs for the names of the talks, the 82 00:03:52,158 --> 00:03:56,818 rooms, everything else, and maybe that's because of that, the artistic side of the 83 00:03:56,818 --> 00:03:57,682 Atelier. 84 00:03:57,682 --> 00:04:00,502 It's also because they are very punk. 85 00:04:00,502 --> 00:04:03,422 That's what that's how they describe themselves, right? 86 00:04:04,062 --> 00:04:05,410 Which I take to mean. 87 00:04:05,410 --> 00:04:07,960 a very cool venue called the wharf chambers. 88 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:13,060 I think it is very inclusive, diverse space in leads as well. 89 00:04:13,060 --> 00:04:16,670 But yeah, it was really good. 90 00:04:16,889 --> 00:04:18,910 Great to catch up with a lot of people. 91 00:04:18,910 --> 00:04:21,210 I've not seen for a long time. 92 00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:24,490 Some people like a really long time, like pre -COVID. 93 00:04:24,630 --> 00:04:27,290 So it was great to catch up with them. 94 00:04:27,290 --> 00:04:30,150 And yeah, there was a great, great selection of talks. 95 00:04:30,150 --> 00:04:30,658 So. 96 00:04:30,658 --> 00:04:32,648 But I think you were going to do this, Vernon. 97 00:04:32,648 --> 00:04:33,108 Let's see. 98 00:04:33,108 --> 00:04:39,980 You were going to lead this by following, was it Jits summary of events? 99 00:04:40,530 --> 00:04:41,650 me find his 100 00:04:42,048 --> 00:04:43,308 Ooh! 101 00:04:43,308 --> 00:04:44,048 Ooh! 102 00:04:44,048 --> 00:04:45,288 Football resulting! 103 00:04:45,288 --> 00:04:49,708 So, live from the studio, there has been a goal for Everton. 104 00:04:49,708 --> 00:04:52,028 It's currently 1 -0. 105 00:04:52,028 --> 00:04:57,208 Gerrard Braithwaite with the what I imagine is a superb strike and causing 106 00:04:57,208 --> 00:05:00,608 misery across many Liverpool fans' faces right now. 107 00:05:00,608 --> 00:05:03,288 Richard has a future in commentary. 108 00:05:03,980 --> 00:05:05,640 mate, it's sad times. 109 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,559 Hopefully, come on, come on you red, sort yourself out. 110 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:14,060 Anyway, back to the topic of Leeds testing atelier. 111 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,720 I'll quickly get this out of the way so I can go and cry. 112 00:05:18,060 --> 00:05:22,660 Yeah, so Jit, I've got a post up here from Jit that he shared on LinkedIn yesterday. 113 00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:23,270 Shout out to you Jit. 114 00:05:23,270 --> 00:05:28,920 And he's listed a bunch of people whose workshop and talks that he. 115 00:05:29,888 --> 00:05:32,128 listened to and took part in. 116 00:05:32,128 --> 00:05:34,016 So do you want me to go through the list Rich? 117 00:05:34,016 --> 00:05:37,056 Er, yeah, just pick one and I can tell you if I was there or not, let's do it that 118 00:05:37,056 --> 00:05:37,376 way. 119 00:05:37,376 --> 00:05:39,866 And then I'll fill in the gaps of the ones I went to. 120 00:05:40,232 --> 00:05:41,692 I will start from the top. 121 00:05:41,692 --> 00:05:46,272 The first one, Jit says, Ellie Gowsden delivered a great workshop and has given 122 00:05:46,272 --> 00:05:49,412 me loads of ideas to try back at the office. 123 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:55,000 Yeah, so Ellie gave, I don't know what the title was now, but it was about play. 124 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,800 It was about the importance of play in the workplace and learning from play. 125 00:06:00,340 --> 00:06:03,920 So I believe she works at Co -op Digital. 126 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,200 And there's a few people from there. 127 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:11,380 And she was talking about how they kind of have a lot of fun at Co -op and the 128 00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:12,680 importance of it. 129 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,664 And the activity that she got us to do was, you know what? 130 00:06:17,664 --> 00:06:18,404 I thought of my bag. 131 00:06:18,404 --> 00:06:20,084 I think it's in my bag. 132 00:06:20,144 --> 00:06:23,104 But I will try and go from memory. 133 00:06:23,284 --> 00:06:24,444 So Snakes and Ladders, right? 134 00:06:24,444 --> 00:06:25,614 You've all played Snakes and Ladders. 135 00:06:25,614 --> 00:06:27,224 Have you played Snakes and Ladders? 136 00:06:27,224 --> 00:06:30,704 So they gave us an empty board of Snakes and Ladders. 137 00:06:30,704 --> 00:06:34,584 And it was to help the framing she gave us was around exploratory testing, but 138 00:06:34,584 --> 00:06:37,404 generally onboarding new people. 139 00:06:37,404 --> 00:06:42,024 So the idea was that you had to design your own Snakes and Ladders game. 140 00:06:42,184 --> 00:06:42,976 And... 141 00:06:42,976 --> 00:06:48,036 on the appropriate squares, you would have a testing challenge. 142 00:06:48,036 --> 00:06:49,256 But really simple. 143 00:06:49,256 --> 00:06:50,936 So their example was co -op. 144 00:06:50,936 --> 00:06:55,356 So if you roll a three, you land on the number three, and it says add five items 145 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:56,756 to your basket. 146 00:06:56,756 --> 00:06:58,906 And then you're going to learn how to do that. 147 00:06:58,906 --> 00:07:02,376 And obviously, they're going to get to watch you and see how that goes. 148 00:07:02,376 --> 00:07:06,726 So you could use it for user research, but you could use it for new people on board. 149 00:07:06,726 --> 00:07:09,926 And you could generally just use it for test ideas if you're stuck at what to do, 150 00:07:09,926 --> 00:07:12,320 just play a game of snakes and ladders on your own. 151 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,480 Um, but then she just waiting hers and they had like remove items from your 152 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:18,890 basket, pay for your basket. 153 00:07:18,890 --> 00:07:23,660 Uh, you know, general co -op kind of shop related things, but then she challenged us 154 00:07:23,660 --> 00:07:25,460 to make our own for our own. 155 00:07:25,460 --> 00:07:26,720 Context. 156 00:07:26,740 --> 00:07:29,920 So for me at the moment, my lot of my stuff's around memberships and 157 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:31,860 subscriptions and buying products and stuff. 158 00:07:31,860 --> 00:07:36,060 So I was thinking more about some of the regression scenarios that we have, and I 159 00:07:36,060 --> 00:07:37,210 was populating my little game. 160 00:07:37,210 --> 00:07:41,112 And then you got to draw the snakes and where you'd come down and, um, 161 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,560 But yeah, I found it really interesting that side of it. 162 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,720 And then the final one, she challenged us, or maybe I'll challenge you now and see if 163 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,180 you can do it. 164 00:07:48,180 --> 00:07:54,420 She said, think of a game you already know and how would you turn it into a testing 165 00:07:54,420 --> 00:07:55,160 game? 166 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,900 like any game or board. 167 00:07:59,260 --> 00:08:00,640 Okay. 168 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:01,748 Okay. 169 00:08:01,748 --> 00:08:04,448 of, um, battleships. 170 00:08:04,448 --> 00:08:07,468 So I remember as a kid, I had an electronic battleships, right? 171 00:08:07,468 --> 00:08:11,448 You know, you say B7 and stuff, and you know, it will sink my ship and stuff like 172 00:08:11,448 --> 00:08:11,818 that. 173 00:08:11,818 --> 00:08:17,308 I was thinking if you, my idea was, could you play that with, um, like basically 174 00:08:17,308 --> 00:08:22,168 JIRA tickets and pull requests and, you know, stuff like that, lines of code. 175 00:08:22,168 --> 00:08:26,016 So, you know, instead of like, maybe the ships are bugs instead. 176 00:08:26,016 --> 00:08:29,216 and you say, you know, PR number seven, right? 177 00:08:29,216 --> 00:08:33,056 And you, you know, you're basically squashing the bugs instead of sinking the 178 00:08:33,056 --> 00:08:33,596 ships. 179 00:08:33,596 --> 00:08:38,536 And, you know, you'd have to remember certain context of that bug to know which 180 00:08:38,536 --> 00:08:39,306 one it might be. 181 00:08:39,306 --> 00:08:41,496 Cause you know, remember in the past, you'd be like, well, I've already, I've 182 00:08:41,496 --> 00:08:44,176 sunk you five ship and I've done you over one. 183 00:08:44,176 --> 00:08:46,116 So yeah, that was one of my ideas. 184 00:08:46,116 --> 00:08:49,676 And then what was my second idea? 185 00:08:49,676 --> 00:08:51,876 Trying to go from memory. 186 00:08:53,856 --> 00:08:54,826 No, it's gone. 187 00:08:54,826 --> 00:08:55,666 It's not there. 188 00:08:55,666 --> 00:08:56,106 What was it? 189 00:08:56,106 --> 00:08:57,682 Have you thought of any? 190 00:08:58,912 --> 00:08:59,572 Kind of. 191 00:08:59,572 --> 00:09:05,672 So my, my favorite board game of all time is called Colt Express. 192 00:09:06,112 --> 00:09:09,932 And basically this, this game is not really, well, it's a board game, but 193 00:09:09,932 --> 00:09:10,572 there's no board. 194 00:09:10,572 --> 00:09:13,612 It's more, the board is like a, a model of a train. 195 00:09:13,612 --> 00:09:17,832 And the objective is every player is a robber. 196 00:09:17,832 --> 00:09:19,922 Each robber has different abilities. 197 00:09:19,922 --> 00:09:26,392 And the winner of the, of the game is the train robber who amasses the most swag. 198 00:09:26,392 --> 00:09:26,912 Right. 199 00:09:26,912 --> 00:09:28,674 And the way you play, 200 00:09:28,768 --> 00:09:30,268 this will make sense soon. 201 00:09:30,268 --> 00:09:36,648 The way you play is that each turn you play a card which gives an instruction to 202 00:09:36,648 --> 00:09:39,268 your character. 203 00:09:40,528 --> 00:09:44,908 Now, there are two things that can mess this up. 204 00:09:45,468 --> 00:09:50,412 One of the characters can play a card face down so you can't see what he's done. 205 00:09:51,008 --> 00:09:51,904 Okay. 206 00:09:51,904 --> 00:09:57,484 and there's also some constraints on each round where you're in a tunnel which again 207 00:09:57,484 --> 00:10:01,584 means you played the card face down so you can't see what people have done. 208 00:10:01,584 --> 00:10:06,404 And what that means is you're effectively programming your players to do, your 209 00:10:06,404 --> 00:10:14,024 characters to do stuff and because people can, you can like say, oh I saw Rich has 210 00:10:14,024 --> 00:10:18,084 gone that way so I'm gonna react to that but as soon as this card start getting 211 00:10:18,084 --> 00:10:19,840 played down you don't know what's going on. 212 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,450 and it's absolutely hilarious. 213 00:10:21,450 --> 00:10:26,580 And that game reminds me of, reminds me a lot of programming and things not going 214 00:10:26,580 --> 00:10:27,420 according to plan. 215 00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:33,060 Like, oh yeah, I wrote the code to do this thing, but then money actually flipped the 216 00:10:33,060 --> 00:10:35,570 cards over and play out the actions and moved it. 217 00:10:35,570 --> 00:10:36,930 Things do not go according to plan. 218 00:10:36,930 --> 00:10:39,520 And I was like, this is absolutely about software development. 219 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,160 It's got nothing to do with Robin trains. 220 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,680 So yeah, that's my example of what it's already about. 221 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,540 Yeah, yeah, it kind of already is. 222 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:50,920 Yeah. 223 00:10:54,400 --> 00:11:00,540 I'm trying to think now of the examples that we saw as well. 224 00:11:00,540 --> 00:11:01,120 So. 225 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:07,080 I think Claire, oh I can't remember her surname, Claire from North Wales, she's 226 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:12,900 often at Agile testing days, surnames allude to me, she joined, Newman, Norman, 227 00:11:12,900 --> 00:11:14,380 yeah Claire. 228 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:20,700 I think she, her group came up with a play on UNO and I can't remember the specifics 229 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:26,300 of it but it was like a testing version of UNO which was kind of cool. 230 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,528 And yeah, so we're just generally talking about how the getting you, 231 00:11:30,528 --> 00:11:33,948 playing is obviously kind of more chill. 232 00:11:33,948 --> 00:11:36,208 It's more inclusive in some ways. 233 00:11:36,208 --> 00:11:40,628 It's kind of not as like, oh, God, we've got to do training again or whatever, 234 00:11:40,628 --> 00:11:40,788 right? 235 00:11:40,788 --> 00:11:42,948 It's a bit more enjoyable and entertainment. 236 00:11:42,948 --> 00:11:47,428 And she mentioned things like Lego serious play, which I've still never actually been 237 00:11:47,428 --> 00:11:48,998 to a session of Lego serious play. 238 00:11:48,998 --> 00:11:52,248 It comes up all the time, but I've never actually been to one. 239 00:11:52,568 --> 00:11:54,728 Need to get myself to one of them. 240 00:11:54,968 --> 00:11:59,296 And the, reminded me of my Lego automation workshop where again, 241 00:11:59,296 --> 00:12:05,696 introducing that element of play to teach something in a slightly different manner. 242 00:12:05,736 --> 00:12:07,446 I think it's like two different things. 243 00:12:07,446 --> 00:12:12,356 One is using, you know, like fun methods to teach something, whereas the other one 244 00:12:12,356 --> 00:12:17,216 is just making something more interesting by turning it into a game. 245 00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:19,786 So yeah, it was really good fun. 246 00:12:19,786 --> 00:12:23,232 She smashed it, delivering a really hands on. 247 00:12:23,232 --> 00:12:26,712 You know, it was a 60 minute talk, but it was delivered as a talk and then 248 00:12:26,712 --> 00:12:29,022 absolutely, you know, giving us challenges to do. 249 00:12:29,022 --> 00:12:30,894 Why are you laughing so much? 250 00:12:31,264 --> 00:12:32,892 See who's score! 251 00:12:33,632 --> 00:12:35,352 Oh, what? 252 00:12:35,912 --> 00:12:37,302 Outrageous. 253 00:12:37,302 --> 00:12:39,132 I hope it gets bar'd off yet. 254 00:12:39,132 --> 00:12:40,872 Let's see. 255 00:12:41,812 --> 00:12:42,892 Anyway. 256 00:12:42,892 --> 00:12:44,252 I didn't laugh this hard. 257 00:12:44,252 --> 00:12:47,172 You better hope you hope Everton don't score again, mate. 258 00:12:47,472 --> 00:12:52,032 We're playing United are playing Sheffield United, which is why he's laughing because 259 00:12:52,032 --> 00:12:53,032 I think they are. 260 00:12:53,032 --> 00:12:57,032 Are they bottom of the league or like, yeah, bottom of the table? 261 00:12:57,032 --> 00:12:59,032 Yeah, well. 262 00:12:59,372 --> 00:13:00,282 Anyway, right. 263 00:13:00,282 --> 00:13:02,016 So, yeah, props to Ellie. 264 00:13:02,016 --> 00:13:03,456 Great session. 265 00:13:03,996 --> 00:13:07,266 What you're doing at Co -op Digital looks incredibly good fun as well. 266 00:13:07,266 --> 00:13:11,076 So if anyone sees a job opening there that looks interesting, it sounds like they 267 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:12,196 have a great time there. 268 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:14,616 Very collaborative, very open. 269 00:13:14,616 --> 00:13:16,836 Yeah, it looked like a good place to be. 270 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,080 I hope I'm pronouncing your name properly, Ellie. 271 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,060 Is it Galsden or Gawsden? 272 00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:25,460 Forgive me if I'm mispronouncing it. 273 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:31,600 Okay, shall we look at the next name on Jit's post? 274 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,580 So his next one, he's saying, Elliot Thirland gave a great talk on the post 275 00:13:36,580 --> 00:13:37,900 office horizon scandal. 276 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:41,500 If you've not looked into what happened there, then it's pretty shocking. 277 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:42,976 Did you go to that one? 278 00:13:42,976 --> 00:13:47,136 I didn't, I didn't go and I think the reason why I didn't go is obviously you've 279 00:13:47,136 --> 00:13:49,016 always got to make a decision at a conference, right? 280 00:13:49,016 --> 00:13:52,036 That's one of the tricky things. 281 00:13:52,176 --> 00:13:57,236 I think it's cause I've read a lot of James Christie's blogs on the topic. 282 00:13:57,936 --> 00:14:01,384 So I, yeah, I opted to go for something else. 283 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,660 just for context for anyone who doesn't know about this. 284 00:14:04,660 --> 00:14:11,500 This is, if anyone, you know, it's one of those moments where the importance of 285 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:17,740 software testing and bug reporting and software development is absolutely stocked 286 00:14:17,740 --> 00:14:19,580 like this, just unequivocal. 287 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,280 So situation is, what, two decades, 20 years ago, 30 years ago? 288 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:31,104 Quite some time ago, the post office in the UK, 289 00:14:31,104 --> 00:14:36,324 who are primarily responsible for delivering our letters. 290 00:14:37,164 --> 00:14:45,784 They commissioned some consultancies to build themselves a new system for 291 00:14:45,784 --> 00:14:50,204 postmasters and postmistresses, the people who run the post offices in the UK. 292 00:14:51,384 --> 00:14:54,244 Like an EPOS system, electronic point of sale. 293 00:14:54,244 --> 00:14:58,652 And the software would also do all the reckoning up at the end of the day. 294 00:14:59,392 --> 00:15:04,272 And long story short, that software had a bug in it, which meant that, let's say I'd 295 00:15:04,272 --> 00:15:09,372 actually taken a hundred pounds that day, the till and the software would say I'd 296 00:15:09,372 --> 00:15:12,972 only taken, I don't know, 90 quid or 80 quid. 297 00:15:13,052 --> 00:15:16,602 And so these postmasters and postmistresses who'd all been, you know, 298 00:15:16,602 --> 00:15:22,412 absolutely fine before were now being accused by the post office of stealing. 299 00:15:22,412 --> 00:15:27,392 And they were like, well, no, this is like the machine, like the software is buggy. 300 00:15:27,392 --> 00:15:28,512 And the post office was like, no. 301 00:15:28,512 --> 00:15:31,702 Absolutely not, you're all thieves and we're going to prosecute the lot of you. 302 00:15:31,702 --> 00:15:36,172 And they did and the consequences were absolutely grim. 303 00:15:36,572 --> 00:15:41,612 You know, many people went to jail, many people lost their livelihoods because 304 00:15:41,612 --> 00:15:47,412 obviously, you know, the post office prosecuted them. 305 00:15:48,012 --> 00:15:53,952 And even more horribly, some people took their own lives as a result of this. 306 00:15:54,172 --> 00:15:55,768 And it is just... 307 00:15:55,968 --> 00:16:01,628 It's unbelievable that it happened and a lot of governments dropped the ball on 308 00:16:01,628 --> 00:16:03,888 this over many years. 309 00:16:03,888 --> 00:16:07,648 So if you want to hear some more about this, there's two resources I can 310 00:16:07,648 --> 00:16:08,018 recommend. 311 00:16:08,018 --> 00:16:11,628 One of them, which already mentioned, which is James Christie. 312 00:16:11,628 --> 00:16:16,108 James Christie used to be an auditor, then became a tester, worked in software 313 00:16:16,108 --> 00:16:17,038 development for many years. 314 00:16:17,038 --> 00:16:20,408 And he is incredibly good at explaining stuff. 315 00:16:20,408 --> 00:16:23,384 And he has done a lot of research into this and is just... 316 00:16:24,544 --> 00:16:27,724 It's a grim read, but it's also an insightful read. 317 00:16:27,724 --> 00:16:29,154 So go on, look at all his materials. 318 00:16:29,154 --> 00:16:33,824 And then the other one is a really good documentary series on the BBC. 319 00:16:33,824 --> 00:16:35,644 I'm not sure if it's still, I hope it's still available. 320 00:16:35,644 --> 00:16:37,804 I'll try and find it. 321 00:16:37,804 --> 00:16:46,104 Well, I think why it's so prominent now is because ITV made a TV show about it 322 00:16:46,104 --> 00:16:46,924 recently. 323 00:16:46,924 --> 00:16:51,784 And that really brought it to the fore, which I haven't watched it actually, but I 324 00:16:51,784 --> 00:16:53,280 listened to the... 325 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,700 BBC radio series about it some years ago and I couldn't, I actually couldn't 326 00:16:57,700 --> 00:16:58,100 believe it. 327 00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:01,438 So that's, that's, that is the short version by the way. 328 00:17:02,112 --> 00:17:08,082 I think the important bit, like you said there though, is like, you know, you, you, 329 00:17:08,082 --> 00:17:11,092 we always try and think of the people like who our software is going to be used by 330 00:17:11,092 --> 00:17:12,292 right all the time. 331 00:17:12,292 --> 00:17:17,132 But like in some spaces, like, yes, we're thinking how that could go wrong, but 332 00:17:17,132 --> 00:17:21,282 like, I would admit I don't always frame it from the, the end user point of view. 333 00:17:21,282 --> 00:17:23,772 Like I'm like, oh, you know, if that, I wonder if there's a way of that getting 334 00:17:23,772 --> 00:17:24,752 negative, right. 335 00:17:24,752 --> 00:17:29,911 As opposed to that, is there a way that I can make that not add up as opposed to. 336 00:17:30,176 --> 00:17:32,506 Will someone lose their job if that doesn't add up, right? 337 00:17:32,506 --> 00:17:36,526 They're very different, like framings for that testing. 338 00:17:36,526 --> 00:17:42,416 And often I'm very much in the software model function space, as opposed to the 339 00:17:42,416 --> 00:17:45,346 person space of what, how would that person be? 340 00:17:45,346 --> 00:17:47,636 What would happen to their life if this went wrong? 341 00:17:47,636 --> 00:17:51,976 And it reminds me of the headline game that Elizabeth Hendrickson introduced me 342 00:17:51,976 --> 00:17:53,916 to for your software. 343 00:17:53,916 --> 00:17:59,156 Like what's the worst possible headline you could wake up to tomorrow for your 344 00:17:59,156 --> 00:18:00,032 product. 345 00:18:00,032 --> 00:18:00,808 Yeah. 346 00:18:00,808 --> 00:18:06,868 as a group, you try and reverse engineer it to see if it could actually happen. 347 00:18:07,328 --> 00:18:11,368 And I think that again, that ties back into that idea of play as well. 348 00:18:11,368 --> 00:18:17,788 It's like, you know, it's a very different way of framing going about testing. 349 00:18:18,248 --> 00:18:21,648 And yeah, I remember, I think it's in the book that she, I think it's an explorer or 350 00:18:21,648 --> 00:18:25,888 maybe she did a training, I'm not sure, but I definitely got it from her. 351 00:18:25,888 --> 00:18:26,128 Yeah. 352 00:18:26,128 --> 00:18:27,328 It's an explorer. 353 00:18:27,328 --> 00:18:34,348 I mean, thinking about the second and third order effects of a bug is absolute, 354 00:18:34,348 --> 00:18:42,088 like that can really, really help you report your bug more effectively. 355 00:18:42,248 --> 00:18:49,388 And, you know, I learned a ton from, I did the bug advocacy course, the black box 356 00:18:49,388 --> 00:18:53,606 software testing bug advocacy course, maybe 10 years ago. 357 00:18:53,664 --> 00:19:02,244 I think that AST are in the midst of updating it and I know that Altum also, 358 00:19:02,584 --> 00:19:03,534 where were they based? 359 00:19:03,534 --> 00:19:04,882 Altum, they're in Romania. 360 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:11,360 Romania and Finland, I believe, that's the biggest places, I believe. 361 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,140 definitely check those out because they've got some good information about that. 362 00:19:14,140 --> 00:19:19,020 But Kelty Hightower talked, gave a really good example of this last year at the 363 00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:21,450 Manchester Tet Fest when we had a fireside chat. 364 00:19:21,450 --> 00:19:25,420 You know, he talked about this, by the way, if you ever have a chance to listen 365 00:19:25,420 --> 00:19:28,500 to Kelty Hightower talk about anything, take the chance. 366 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:29,450 And I mean anything. 367 00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:34,460 He could be talking about the lint in his pocket and he will reveal the secrets of 368 00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:35,800 the universe in that talk. 369 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,488 But in this talk, he was talking about how... 370 00:19:39,488 --> 00:19:43,528 He was on a team that was dealing with a production issue and the team, you know, 371 00:19:43,528 --> 00:19:47,968 you're in your, you're in your war room, I guess, trying to figure things out. 372 00:19:48,548 --> 00:19:55,208 And I'm butchering this story when it's compared to Kelsey telling it, but he felt 373 00:19:55,208 --> 00:19:56,848 that the energy was off in the room. 374 00:19:56,848 --> 00:20:01,328 And so he's kind of got everyone, everyone's attention. 375 00:20:01,328 --> 00:20:04,528 They kind of said, look, cause it was a, it was a, it's something to do with 376 00:20:04,528 --> 00:20:05,848 transactions on credit cards. 377 00:20:05,848 --> 00:20:07,088 That was the issue. 378 00:20:07,088 --> 00:20:08,800 People couldn't pay for stuff. 379 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:17,620 And he's like, look, right now there is a family in a supermarket, the only way they 380 00:20:17,620 --> 00:20:20,840 can pay is with our credit card. 381 00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:23,000 They have no... 382 00:20:23,092 --> 00:20:29,511 American version of Universal Credit, when food stamps went electronic, I think it 383 00:20:29,511 --> 00:20:30,352 was. 384 00:20:30,352 --> 00:20:35,028 he's like, they have no other way to pay for what they are buying. 385 00:20:36,736 --> 00:20:41,816 The queue is backing up behind them and this thing is not working. 386 00:20:42,116 --> 00:20:44,776 That's why we need to get this thing fixed. 387 00:20:44,776 --> 00:20:48,096 And now it's the whole new level of seriousness now has just been applied to 388 00:20:48,096 --> 00:20:49,116 the situation. 389 00:20:49,116 --> 00:20:54,836 And that's why it's really important to try and frame these things in a really, 390 00:20:54,836 --> 00:21:01,116 you know, in as impactful a way as you possibly can. 391 00:21:01,116 --> 00:21:05,296 There's a human being affected or could be affected by this problem that we found. 392 00:21:05,296 --> 00:21:05,952 But anyway. 393 00:21:05,952 --> 00:21:08,472 For a talk that we didn't see, we talked about it a lot. 394 00:21:08,572 --> 00:21:11,112 But there's actually a talk that I've... 395 00:21:11,112 --> 00:21:14,032 I didn't write down, because I was like, you know, sometimes you're just listening 396 00:21:14,032 --> 00:21:14,671 intently. 397 00:21:14,763 --> 00:21:20,023 was a talk later on in the day with Leah King and Tracy Archibald about killer bugs 398 00:21:20,023 --> 00:21:21,263 and how to squash them. 399 00:21:21,263 --> 00:21:26,203 They build medical software for testing your eyes and doing Lasak and stuff like 400 00:21:26,203 --> 00:21:26,593 that. 401 00:21:26,593 --> 00:21:29,995 And they were talking about things like, like, 402 00:21:29,995 --> 00:21:34,195 Like a field or a form not showing the data as it used to be, which could cause 403 00:21:34,195 --> 00:21:38,715 the technician not to notice, which could cause them to do the wrong procedure. 404 00:21:38,715 --> 00:21:43,195 So they were talking about like the, I can't remember the exact framing now, but 405 00:21:43,195 --> 00:21:46,344 like the severity of the bug and then like the impact of it. 406 00:21:46,344 --> 00:21:47,835 I can't, I'm going to get their word wrong. 407 00:21:47,835 --> 00:21:52,895 I apologize, but it was like, you know, having a field wrong on there is not too 408 00:21:52,895 --> 00:21:53,335 bad. 409 00:21:53,335 --> 00:21:53,815 Oh yeah. 410 00:21:53,815 --> 00:21:56,675 They had a scale basically for the risk of lives. 411 00:21:56,675 --> 00:21:57,515 It was. 412 00:21:57,515 --> 00:22:01,395 could injure multiple people at the same time, or sorry, death, could kill people, 413 00:22:01,395 --> 00:22:03,255 multiple people at the same time. 414 00:22:03,255 --> 00:22:09,255 The second one was, could kill an individual, could cause death to an 415 00:22:09,255 --> 00:22:10,375 individual. 416 00:22:10,875 --> 00:22:15,415 But the same, sorry, the framing was multiple people at the same time as in the 417 00:22:15,415 --> 00:22:17,015 same moment, right? 418 00:22:17,015 --> 00:22:20,455 Whereas the second one was, could kill one person, but it could kill a thousand 419 00:22:20,455 --> 00:22:23,275 people individually, yeah. 420 00:22:23,275 --> 00:22:25,835 And then the next one was, could cause. 421 00:22:25,835 --> 00:22:29,095 long lasting damage, life altering damage. 422 00:22:29,095 --> 00:22:32,015 And then there was a second one, which was kind of less severe damage. 423 00:22:32,015 --> 00:22:35,175 And then the other one was kind of, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't cause any damage, 424 00:22:35,175 --> 00:22:36,635 but they were going through bugs that way. 425 00:22:36,635 --> 00:22:40,095 Like, yes, it's a field wrong on the screen, but the impact is massive. 426 00:22:40,095 --> 00:22:45,135 And that reminds me of like Kelsey's story there where yes, I can't pay, which is 427 00:22:45,135 --> 00:22:46,155 bad, right. 428 00:22:46,155 --> 00:22:50,775 But actually now I'm also embarrassed as hell stood at the front of a supermarket, 429 00:22:50,775 --> 00:22:52,385 which is not even the worst bit of it. 430 00:22:52,385 --> 00:22:53,795 I also can't feed my family. 431 00:22:53,795 --> 00:22:55,819 I can't eat like. 432 00:22:55,819 --> 00:22:56,729 And that's it. 433 00:22:56,729 --> 00:22:57,729 It's not, I can't pay. 434 00:22:57,729 --> 00:23:00,059 Whereas if you remember logging that bug, it'd be like, well, what's the bug? 435 00:23:00,059 --> 00:23:01,319 Well, you can't pay. 436 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:01,619 Right. 437 00:23:01,619 --> 00:23:06,159 But actually when you come to think about how important is it to fix and you, if 438 00:23:06,159 --> 00:23:11,289 you're not framing it in that second, third impact, it's like, well, you know, 439 00:23:11,289 --> 00:23:13,079 someone can't feed their family. 440 00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:16,259 They can't feed, you know, they couldn't feed somebody else and they can't feed 441 00:23:16,259 --> 00:23:16,779 themselves. 442 00:23:16,779 --> 00:23:19,539 It changes everything. 443 00:23:19,539 --> 00:23:22,847 It does change everything. 444 00:23:23,051 --> 00:23:27,331 Right, yeah, so yeah, another brought another talk into it there, but that was a 445 00:23:27,331 --> 00:23:32,711 really good talk just about how they frame bugs as well and being in the medical 446 00:23:32,711 --> 00:23:33,311 space. 447 00:23:33,311 --> 00:23:39,131 And I've just seen that we've equalized Vernon, get in one, one, one, one, right. 448 00:23:39,131 --> 00:23:40,141 What's the next talk? 449 00:23:40,141 --> 00:23:41,803 What was what's next on Jitslist? 450 00:23:41,803 --> 00:23:44,023 Oh, okay. 451 00:23:44,443 --> 00:23:49,643 Jit says, Emily O 'Connor showed us how to test the chat bot and automation does play 452 00:23:49,643 --> 00:23:50,533 a part. 453 00:23:50,763 --> 00:23:54,269 I've not done it, but have you used any of these recently? 454 00:23:55,179 --> 00:23:56,011 What a chat bot. 455 00:23:56,011 --> 00:23:57,979 Yeah, like an AI one. 456 00:23:59,179 --> 00:24:02,319 I don't know if it was AI, it was just as irritating as all the rest of them have 457 00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:02,959 ever been. 458 00:24:02,959 --> 00:24:05,327 So I don't know if it was. 459 00:24:05,327 --> 00:24:10,227 current context, we use a payment gateway and I went to their docs. 460 00:24:10,267 --> 00:24:11,567 Um, you know, docs are great, right? 461 00:24:11,567 --> 00:24:15,447 Um, but they've turned their docs into a bot. 462 00:24:15,447 --> 00:24:21,827 So not a bot as in a, you know, go read this link bot as a bot as in like chat 463 00:24:21,827 --> 00:24:26,127 GPT, basically framing the docs into answers for you. 464 00:24:26,127 --> 00:24:27,337 I'm like, well, I've got this. 465 00:24:27,337 --> 00:24:30,897 And then it was like, giving me like really good link and a proper answer, 466 00:24:30,897 --> 00:24:31,797 which I tried to do. 467 00:24:31,797 --> 00:24:33,707 And it worked like sometimes. 468 00:24:33,707 --> 00:24:35,927 But then other times I was like, I don't see that button. 469 00:24:35,927 --> 00:24:38,167 And then it would be like, oh, well, you're probably not seeing that button 470 00:24:38,167 --> 00:24:41,407 because you're not on this plan or because this has been configured separately. 471 00:24:41,407 --> 00:24:42,407 I thought, oh, this is amazing. 472 00:24:42,407 --> 00:24:44,407 And then it was like, well, how do I configure that? 473 00:24:44,407 --> 00:24:48,547 And like, it was a very, usually the interactions I've had have been trying to 474 00:24:48,547 --> 00:24:51,047 just get through it to get to somebody. 475 00:24:51,047 --> 00:24:53,727 Whereas this was actually helping me. 476 00:24:53,727 --> 00:24:57,687 But yeah, I didn't go to that talk, but I like, you got to make decisions, like I 477 00:24:57,687 --> 00:25:01,887 said before, but yeah, I've had, I've actually had a positive interaction with 478 00:25:01,887 --> 00:25:03,355 one of these bots recently. 479 00:25:03,371 --> 00:25:05,991 That's, I've heard about that. 480 00:25:05,991 --> 00:25:11,401 You effectively train chat GPT, well, I say chat GPT. 481 00:25:11,401 --> 00:25:15,631 You train your LLM on your docs. 482 00:25:16,151 --> 00:25:21,751 And then you can ask it sensible, like I say sensible, like you just conversate 483 00:25:21,751 --> 00:25:24,681 with the chat bot, with the LLM. 484 00:25:24,681 --> 00:25:26,261 It's like, oh yeah, where's this button? 485 00:25:26,261 --> 00:25:27,211 Oh, you probably can't see it. 486 00:25:27,211 --> 00:25:29,099 That sounds. 487 00:25:29,099 --> 00:25:30,079 That sounds pretty sick. 488 00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:35,999 That was not my experience of the chatbot that I was using the other day when I 489 00:25:35,999 --> 00:25:38,019 tried to get conned by... 490 00:25:38,187 --> 00:25:40,363 He tried to get content. 491 00:25:40,363 --> 00:25:44,753 Well, I tried, I was, oh dear, should I name them? 492 00:25:44,753 --> 00:25:45,473 I won't name them. 493 00:25:45,473 --> 00:25:54,463 But I was renewing a domain with a provider and they said, your domain is 494 00:25:54,463 --> 00:25:55,843 about to expire. 495 00:25:55,843 --> 00:25:58,423 And I was like, oh okay, I better go and pay for that. 496 00:25:58,423 --> 00:26:00,223 And so I paid for it. 497 00:26:00,223 --> 00:26:02,263 And then the message on screen was like, you haven't paid. 498 00:26:02,263 --> 00:26:03,883 Like, oh okay, I'll pay again. 499 00:26:03,883 --> 00:26:05,501 And then they're paying twice. 500 00:26:08,075 --> 00:26:10,965 That's fine, before you go any further, that intrigues me. 501 00:26:10,965 --> 00:26:13,555 Because my brain's like, no, I've paid. 502 00:26:13,555 --> 00:26:15,015 I ain't paying again. 503 00:26:15,015 --> 00:26:20,515 I wouldn't even entertain the idea of going to try and pay again as a solution. 504 00:26:20,995 --> 00:26:23,459 So the fact you did that's also intriguing me. 505 00:26:23,459 --> 00:26:26,427 had that reaction after the second time it failed. 506 00:26:28,331 --> 00:26:29,351 I was like, huh? 507 00:26:29,351 --> 00:26:31,323 Nah, this is that, not twice. 508 00:26:31,323 --> 00:26:33,073 basically, you're happy to pay for things twice. 509 00:26:33,073 --> 00:26:37,263 It's the third time of paying for something you're like, oof, too much. 510 00:26:40,003 --> 00:26:42,183 Go on then, so you've paid twice. 511 00:26:42,243 --> 00:26:46,083 having to interact with the chat bot to try and get through to a human. 512 00:26:46,083 --> 00:26:50,423 And the only thing a chat bot is good for is preventing you from getting to a human. 513 00:26:50,423 --> 00:26:53,083 So that was interesting. 514 00:26:53,083 --> 00:26:58,223 And then when I got through to a human, the human acted like a chat bot and tried 515 00:26:58,223 --> 00:27:00,563 to tell me that they couldn't possibly help me. 516 00:27:00,963 --> 00:27:02,955 It was just an infuriating experience. 517 00:27:02,955 --> 00:27:06,659 until the third person I got a three to was like, oh. 518 00:27:08,459 --> 00:27:09,699 Why don't you call up? 519 00:27:09,699 --> 00:27:14,399 Because the people on the ends of the phone have got way more privileges and can 520 00:27:14,399 --> 00:27:16,039 do way more than, and I was like, why? 521 00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:16,799 Okay. 522 00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:19,029 So then I called and sorted it out in like five minutes. 523 00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:21,359 It was just, the whole thing was annoying. 524 00:27:21,679 --> 00:27:23,467 Anyway, that was a massive tangent. 525 00:27:23,467 --> 00:27:27,137 There was a really good chatbot thing related to this during COVID. 526 00:27:27,137 --> 00:27:29,307 I think it was hotels .com. 527 00:27:29,567 --> 00:27:31,586 They quickly knocked up something. 528 00:27:31,586 --> 00:27:35,227 I don't know if it was AI powered or not, but it was basically allowed you to get to 529 00:27:35,227 --> 00:27:38,227 the canceling of bookings really quickly and get your money back. 530 00:27:38,227 --> 00:27:40,267 Like no questions asked kind of refund. 531 00:27:40,267 --> 00:27:44,727 And the bot was very specifically designed to handle that scenario. 532 00:27:44,727 --> 00:27:48,267 I'm guessing cause maybe the volume of inquiries that were coming in and stuff 533 00:27:48,267 --> 00:27:50,237 that it was an easy way of doing it. 534 00:27:50,237 --> 00:27:51,563 But like basically. 535 00:27:51,563 --> 00:27:55,023 He asked it, he answered a few questions and it just let you cancel. 536 00:27:55,303 --> 00:27:57,223 I don't know if it was a bug, maybe it was a bug. 537 00:27:57,223 --> 00:27:58,743 Who knows? 538 00:27:59,183 --> 00:28:03,663 But yeah, chatbots, they're out there and hopefully getting a little bit better for 539 00:28:03,663 --> 00:28:04,513 certain use cases. 540 00:28:04,513 --> 00:28:06,643 I think it's good for getting information. 541 00:28:06,643 --> 00:28:10,653 I'm not sure about, you know, like getting through a more complex, serious kind of, 542 00:28:10,653 --> 00:28:14,935 you know, give me my money back flow, but we'll see. 543 00:28:15,721 --> 00:28:16,631 let's see. 544 00:28:16,631 --> 00:28:21,231 So the next one Jit talks about was by Stephen Milne. 545 00:28:21,231 --> 00:28:26,371 He says, Stephen Milne showed us how screen readers work and how we can improve 546 00:28:26,371 --> 00:28:30,421 our web apps with a shout out to the BBC Ally team in there too. 547 00:28:30,421 --> 00:28:31,721 Jit works at the BBC as well. 548 00:28:31,721 --> 00:28:35,021 You see he works on the iPlayer and Sounds team. 549 00:28:35,021 --> 00:28:38,351 So as a shout out for the Beeb teams there. 550 00:28:38,411 --> 00:28:40,291 Did you go to that one? 551 00:28:41,031 --> 00:28:41,715 See? 552 00:28:41,715 --> 00:28:42,915 BBC article. 553 00:28:42,915 --> 00:28:49,255 So, yeah, he gave a really good talk about screen readers and from a point of view of 554 00:28:49,255 --> 00:28:53,915 using them, the importance of doing it, like why we should even care, the 555 00:28:53,915 --> 00:28:55,495 importance of accessibility. 556 00:28:55,495 --> 00:28:59,415 And that was kind of like, you know, the underlying thing, but the way he 557 00:28:59,415 --> 00:29:03,241 structured the talk was he showed us. 558 00:29:03,275 --> 00:29:03,735 You know what? 559 00:29:03,735 --> 00:29:05,855 He didn't even show us the actual website. 560 00:29:05,855 --> 00:29:10,315 He first played a recording of the screen reader and says, what do you think this 561 00:29:10,315 --> 00:29:11,695 website looks like? 562 00:29:11,695 --> 00:29:15,435 And obviously none of us got close, right? 563 00:29:15,435 --> 00:29:18,685 It was played at full speed that people listen to it. 564 00:29:18,685 --> 00:29:20,015 Say people listen to it. 565 00:29:20,015 --> 00:29:25,435 The speed that a visually impaired or a person using a screen reader day to day 566 00:29:25,435 --> 00:29:28,995 would listen to it, which I believe was 400 words per minute, I think is what he 567 00:29:28,995 --> 00:29:30,059 said from memory. 568 00:29:30,059 --> 00:29:32,359 Oh, good, good, yeah. 569 00:29:32,359 --> 00:29:32,829 flying. 570 00:29:32,829 --> 00:29:36,439 It was like email field, visible, active, button, next. 571 00:29:36,439 --> 00:29:38,509 And it was like just ripping through this. 572 00:29:38,509 --> 00:29:39,939 And I was like, whoa. 573 00:29:39,939 --> 00:29:42,169 And then he was asking us, right, so what do you think this looks like? 574 00:29:42,169 --> 00:29:42,929 And we're all laughing. 575 00:29:42,929 --> 00:29:44,299 I have no idea. 576 00:29:44,299 --> 00:29:48,899 And then he started basically piecing it, showing us like, do you think it might 577 00:29:48,899 --> 00:29:49,569 look like this? 578 00:29:49,569 --> 00:29:50,899 And then you think it might look like that. 579 00:29:50,899 --> 00:29:53,419 And then he went, let's listen to it again, obviously a bit slower. 580 00:29:53,419 --> 00:29:56,879 And then we're all going, oh, no, I don't think it does look like that. 581 00:29:56,879 --> 00:30:00,159 And we basically got to the end of the page where he showed us what the form 582 00:30:00,159 --> 00:30:01,067 looked like. 583 00:30:01,067 --> 00:30:08,267 And it was a user, your name field, so your full name. 584 00:30:08,267 --> 00:30:15,147 And then there was a grayed out text box for your, sorry, there was a label for 585 00:30:15,147 --> 00:30:17,827 your, even I'm getting it all wrong now. 586 00:30:17,827 --> 00:30:21,787 There was a paragraph with your name, your email address, sorry. 587 00:30:21,787 --> 00:30:24,967 And then there was a button that said save changes. 588 00:30:25,447 --> 00:30:25,931 So. 589 00:30:25,931 --> 00:30:30,271 He then showed us what this page was like, and then he basically taught us all the 590 00:30:30,271 --> 00:30:32,391 flaws that are wrong with this page. 591 00:30:32,391 --> 00:30:39,891 So from an accessibility screen reader perspective, so basically the fact that 592 00:30:39,891 --> 00:30:44,111 the save button was outside of the paragraph. 593 00:30:44,151 --> 00:30:51,991 So yeah, there was the input field, then there was a separate section with the 594 00:30:51,991 --> 00:30:54,667 email addressing as a label, basically a paragraph. 595 00:30:54,667 --> 00:30:56,587 And then there was the save button. 596 00:30:56,587 --> 00:30:57,757 So they were all detached. 597 00:30:57,757 --> 00:31:00,867 So you're kind of now listening to the screen reader and like, well, is this 598 00:31:00,867 --> 00:31:04,407 button related to the email address paragraph? 599 00:31:04,427 --> 00:31:07,627 But then there's no other button on the page and it was all getting a bit 600 00:31:07,627 --> 00:31:08,507 confusing. 601 00:31:08,507 --> 00:31:11,087 And he taught me something because I wrote it down. 602 00:31:11,087 --> 00:31:15,557 So I've built lots of like front ends and stuff like this. 603 00:31:15,557 --> 00:31:18,747 And, you know, if I'm thinking of showing a piece of information, I usually put it 604 00:31:18,747 --> 00:31:19,797 in a paragraph, right? 605 00:31:19,797 --> 00:31:22,595 Or a span or a header or something like that. 606 00:31:22,723 --> 00:31:23,155 -hmm. 607 00:31:23,155 --> 00:31:28,375 even if it's a, you know, like a, you know, showing the results of a form field. 608 00:31:28,375 --> 00:31:34,695 And what this is and what he was showing us was even if it's because it's a form, 609 00:31:34,695 --> 00:31:35,615 which it was right. 610 00:31:35,615 --> 00:31:39,575 It was a form to basically change your name is what this page was showing you 611 00:31:39,575 --> 00:31:40,775 your email address. 612 00:31:40,775 --> 00:31:41,675 Oh, that was it as well. 613 00:31:41,675 --> 00:31:44,755 The email address had a change email button next to it. 614 00:31:44,755 --> 00:31:47,635 And then the bottom of the page had a save button. 615 00:31:47,635 --> 00:31:48,895 I will. 616 00:31:48,895 --> 00:31:50,815 Hopefully you're following along. 617 00:31:51,415 --> 00:31:52,247 But. 618 00:31:52,395 --> 00:31:54,371 Essentially, what are you... 619 00:31:54,667 --> 00:31:56,963 and form was in absolute shambles. 620 00:31:57,003 --> 00:32:00,593 Yeah, but he basically said it was very common pattern that you see though. 621 00:32:00,593 --> 00:32:04,143 Like usually there's a save button at the bottom of a page and then somewhere in 622 00:32:04,143 --> 00:32:06,843 that page, there's information that you can alter. 623 00:32:06,843 --> 00:32:08,523 There's information you can read. 624 00:32:08,523 --> 00:32:14,143 Um, but it's all usually structured in like not in a very accessible way, but for 625 00:32:14,143 --> 00:32:15,123 a screen reader. 626 00:32:15,123 --> 00:32:19,143 So the way he confirmed it was the way it should have been is. 627 00:32:19,143 --> 00:32:23,243 You're the reason why they had the change email on a separate page and everything 628 00:32:23,243 --> 00:32:23,793 else right. 629 00:32:23,793 --> 00:32:26,827 It's cause it's easier from a code point of view. 630 00:32:26,827 --> 00:32:29,167 You have one controller for change your email. 631 00:32:29,167 --> 00:32:30,187 You have one set of code. 632 00:32:30,187 --> 00:32:32,407 You have one page for changing your email. 633 00:32:32,407 --> 00:32:34,157 You have one page for changing your name. 634 00:32:34,157 --> 00:32:35,277 It goes to a controller. 635 00:32:35,277 --> 00:32:36,557 You change your name, right? 636 00:32:36,557 --> 00:32:37,827 Or even an API, right? 637 00:32:37,827 --> 00:32:39,427 However your code structured. 638 00:32:39,427 --> 00:32:43,727 Whereas he was saying, well, no, you need to put them all on the same page and deal 639 00:32:43,727 --> 00:32:45,647 with that logic on the backend. 640 00:32:45,647 --> 00:32:48,047 Make it easier for your users. 641 00:32:48,047 --> 00:32:55,071 So he rewrote the form to have name, email field, and then save changes, right? 642 00:32:55,115 --> 00:32:57,003 Okay. 643 00:32:57,003 --> 00:33:01,083 And then, cause now that's all in one form, the screen reader can understand 644 00:33:01,083 --> 00:33:05,963 that they're related and that the save button is related to those two fields. 645 00:33:05,963 --> 00:33:08,763 Cause they're now grouped together in semantic HTML. 646 00:33:08,763 --> 00:33:12,383 He made a very good point as well about using semantic HTML. 647 00:33:12,623 --> 00:33:16,903 But the thing that blew my mind, which I've never done, and I've built a lot of 648 00:33:16,903 --> 00:33:24,863 websites and pages was when you show information back, such as email, name, 649 00:33:24,863 --> 00:33:25,899 whatever, right. 650 00:33:25,899 --> 00:33:33,759 You should still use an input field, but use the read only attribute of that field 651 00:33:33,759 --> 00:33:40,199 because it then shows the screen reader that it's actually a piece of information 652 00:33:40,199 --> 00:33:46,959 that's been provided as opposed to just a general paragraph on the page that has 653 00:33:46,959 --> 00:33:48,859 someone's name in it. 654 00:33:48,859 --> 00:33:53,451 And then it would say, import read only field. 655 00:33:53,451 --> 00:33:57,470 email address can also because when you use an input field, you get to give it a 656 00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:58,451 label. 657 00:33:58,491 --> 00:34:05,191 And therefore it has an accessible label as opposed to having like a, you know, 658 00:34:05,191 --> 00:34:10,931 styled HTML that, you know, might say email and then your email that isn't 659 00:34:10,931 --> 00:34:14,691 accessible because the screen reader doesn't know they're connected. 660 00:34:14,691 --> 00:34:19,351 Cause the only way to connect stuff is with semantic HTML with inputs and labels. 661 00:34:19,351 --> 00:34:22,987 So if you have a read only field, you can still style it to look. 662 00:34:22,987 --> 00:34:25,067 however you want it to look. 663 00:34:25,227 --> 00:34:30,207 But marking that input field as read only and having a label for it that says email 664 00:34:30,207 --> 00:34:36,467 would make the screen reader go email richard at whatever .com read only. 665 00:34:36,687 --> 00:34:39,267 And it's completely different flow. 666 00:34:40,187 --> 00:34:43,747 So yeah, hopefully I've made sense of what that was, but it was about using semantic 667 00:34:43,747 --> 00:34:48,627 HTML and structuring pages in a way that a screen, it flows for a screen reader 668 00:34:48,627 --> 00:34:51,851 instead of jumping around, which was really interesting. 669 00:34:51,851 --> 00:34:52,531 is incredible. 670 00:34:52,531 --> 00:34:58,001 I think, so I've got a very beautiful teammate by the name of Paul Coles. 671 00:34:58,001 --> 00:34:59,451 He's an absolute legend. 672 00:34:59,451 --> 00:35:03,531 And he was helping me and another one of my teammates. 673 00:35:03,811 --> 00:35:06,331 Shout out to you, Rita, Rita of water. 674 00:35:06,471 --> 00:35:12,211 And we were doing some accessibility testing at work last year and Paul really 675 00:35:12,211 --> 00:35:19,531 helped us level up our accessibility. 676 00:35:19,723 --> 00:35:22,723 know how and he shared with us this really good talk. 677 00:35:22,723 --> 00:35:28,103 I'll find it, I'll dig it out and I'll add it to the show notes because it was the 678 00:35:28,103 --> 00:35:29,643 same as what Rich described. 679 00:35:29,643 --> 00:35:35,942 It had somebody, I'm pretty sure he was, was he totally blind? 680 00:35:35,942 --> 00:35:40,623 I think he was, he had zero vision, I think, or maybe a little bit. 681 00:35:40,623 --> 00:35:43,883 So he used a screen reader and it's exactly as you described. 682 00:35:43,883 --> 00:35:48,721 I didn't know that that's how people use the screen, just that information alone. 683 00:35:49,163 --> 00:35:49,933 was valuable. 684 00:35:49,933 --> 00:35:52,583 So, oh, this is how people actually use a screen reader. 685 00:35:52,583 --> 00:35:54,183 Okay, good to know. 686 00:35:54,243 --> 00:35:59,183 So it's a really insightful video. 687 00:35:59,183 --> 00:36:00,673 I will share it. 688 00:36:00,673 --> 00:36:04,143 It's a really important topic that I think more of us need to start getting our heads 689 00:36:04,143 --> 00:36:09,183 around, even if it's just so the low hanging fruit and the real obvious 690 00:36:09,183 --> 00:36:12,683 mistakes, we can help avoid them. 691 00:36:12,743 --> 00:36:14,923 So thank you. 692 00:36:14,923 --> 00:36:17,923 very much indeed for doing that talk. 693 00:36:17,923 --> 00:36:18,243 Mr. 694 00:36:18,243 --> 00:36:19,643 Milne, you absolute legend. 695 00:36:19,643 --> 00:36:20,993 gave a really good rule as well. 696 00:36:20,993 --> 00:36:23,403 He was like, nothing should be unlabeled. 697 00:36:23,403 --> 00:36:24,843 That was the rule. 698 00:36:25,163 --> 00:36:30,483 That was kind of the holy grail of making sure things were accessible. 699 00:36:30,483 --> 00:36:35,463 So any inputs, anything like that should always be labeled to make it easy to read 700 00:36:35,463 --> 00:36:37,903 by the screen reader. 701 00:36:38,463 --> 00:36:39,543 And the... 702 00:36:39,543 --> 00:36:39,835 Go on. 703 00:36:39,835 --> 00:36:40,465 Oh, sorry. 704 00:36:40,465 --> 00:36:46,255 I was just gonna say, I'm not surprised the BBC, Ally team So for those folks who 705 00:36:46,255 --> 00:36:51,595 don't know, the BBC is the public broadcaster, the national broadcaster in 706 00:36:51,595 --> 00:36:52,955 the UK, I guess. 707 00:36:52,955 --> 00:36:57,275 So the amount of things that they have to support, by things, I mean devices and 708 00:36:57,275 --> 00:37:00,915 browser and all the rest of it, is ridiculous. 709 00:37:00,915 --> 00:37:05,575 So if anyone has to get their heads around this in a real serious way, it's probably 710 00:37:05,575 --> 00:37:06,347 them. 711 00:37:06,347 --> 00:37:08,203 So yeah, shout out to them. 712 00:37:08,203 --> 00:37:13,823 One more takeaway from this talk that came up in a Q and A was about cookie banners. 713 00:37:14,403 --> 00:37:19,523 And Stephen kind of laughed and said, it's hilarious because, well, it's bad, but 714 00:37:19,523 --> 00:37:22,323 like it'd be funny at the same time in that, you know, people aren't paying 715 00:37:22,323 --> 00:37:30,363 attention to this was the people structure them so that the cookie banners at the 716 00:37:30,363 --> 00:37:31,683 bottom of the DOM. 717 00:37:31,943 --> 00:37:37,227 So screen readers basically read the whole website to you before you get. 718 00:37:37,227 --> 00:37:40,257 to the cookie banner because it's been coded badly. 719 00:37:40,257 --> 00:37:44,647 And it immediately made me want to go off and like try on various websites because I 720 00:37:44,647 --> 00:37:48,967 can, in my head, I can view how that would be wrong because you would let, you would 721 00:37:48,967 --> 00:37:51,597 have to label all the pages like not necessary. 722 00:37:51,597 --> 00:37:55,867 And you'd have to, you'd have to really structure the page properly for that. 723 00:37:55,867 --> 00:37:57,107 Cause focus isn't enough. 724 00:37:57,107 --> 00:38:02,607 Like it would read it all and then go cookie banner focus, as opposed to it 725 00:38:02,607 --> 00:38:05,163 being the first thing the screen reader comes to. 726 00:38:05,163 --> 00:38:08,243 And he didn't, he didn't go into lots of answers about how to do it, but it made me 727 00:38:08,243 --> 00:38:10,523 want to go away and go, how would you do that? 728 00:38:10,523 --> 00:38:14,003 How would you actually code that to make sure that that's the thing the screen 729 00:38:14,003 --> 00:38:19,423 reader gets first and not the rest of the DOM, which could be massive depending on 730 00:38:19,423 --> 00:38:20,643 what the page was. 731 00:38:20,643 --> 00:38:22,179 But yeah. 732 00:38:22,775 --> 00:38:26,739 include some links to some accessibility tools and stuff in the. 733 00:38:26,739 --> 00:38:29,799 to say about Stephen as well, he's a developer slash designer. 734 00:38:29,799 --> 00:38:35,339 So again, that was awesome to just have other roles at the testing conference 735 00:38:35,339 --> 00:38:37,483 talking about, you know, testing. 736 00:38:38,091 --> 00:38:41,331 And shout out to you, Steven, you absolute legend. 737 00:38:41,371 --> 00:38:42,071 Okay. 738 00:38:42,871 --> 00:38:46,331 Next one from Jitspost is this. 739 00:38:46,331 --> 00:38:47,301 Colin W. 740 00:38:47,301 --> 00:38:51,471 taught us all about user flow mapping and how it can help build a joint team 741 00:38:51,471 --> 00:38:56,013 understanding of the work teams need to do and to finish off the day. 742 00:38:57,867 --> 00:38:59,427 I didn't go. 743 00:38:59,427 --> 00:39:04,107 Didn't go, but it's something that I do. 744 00:39:04,107 --> 00:39:08,967 I might not do it by the book of user mapping and et cetera, but it's one thing 745 00:39:08,967 --> 00:39:10,267 that I do straight away. 746 00:39:10,267 --> 00:39:13,047 We think we spoke about in one of the episodes, mental models and stuff. 747 00:39:13,047 --> 00:39:14,917 And that's part of what I need to do. 748 00:39:14,917 --> 00:39:19,087 I kind of do them in a user and a technical flow at the same time. 749 00:39:19,087 --> 00:39:25,707 Like I want to, as I'm going through these screens, like the way I draw it, like the 750 00:39:25,707 --> 00:39:26,923 flow across the top. 751 00:39:26,923 --> 00:39:30,723 which is probably maybe close to being the equivalent of user mapping. 752 00:39:30,723 --> 00:39:34,423 But then underneath that, I like to then list what's gone on under the hood. 753 00:39:34,423 --> 00:39:37,903 You know, was it an API call or was it just saved in state? 754 00:39:37,903 --> 00:39:40,273 If it was an API call, was there multiple calls? 755 00:39:40,273 --> 00:39:41,643 Did it go to a DB? 756 00:39:41,643 --> 00:39:44,983 Like what actually happened between those steps? 757 00:39:45,243 --> 00:39:49,723 Cause I need to know that from the way I like to test, maybe a bit more technical 758 00:39:49,723 --> 00:39:54,423 in some aspects, but also thinking of automating it and thinking of data 759 00:39:54,423 --> 00:39:56,747 creation and thinking of state management. 760 00:39:56,747 --> 00:40:00,771 I need that in my head to be able to work. 761 00:40:01,387 --> 00:40:05,677 I'm quickly like Googling user flow mapping. 762 00:40:05,677 --> 00:40:07,457 Cause I wanna know if it's what I think it is. 763 00:40:07,457 --> 00:40:08,667 It is what I think it is. 764 00:40:08,667 --> 00:40:09,747 Okay. 765 00:40:09,807 --> 00:40:10,337 Yeah. 766 00:40:10,337 --> 00:40:15,477 I think this is a very useful thing to do. 767 00:40:15,477 --> 00:40:19,287 And I don't think I've done enough of it over the years in the teams that I've been 768 00:40:19,287 --> 00:40:20,407 on. 769 00:40:21,167 --> 00:40:24,947 So I think I'm gonna give that a go back in the office for my project. 770 00:40:24,947 --> 00:40:30,443 I'm pretty sure where I work, we have some user flow maps for the app. 771 00:40:30,443 --> 00:40:32,463 that I'm working on. 772 00:40:33,063 --> 00:40:35,283 We've definitely been talking about them. 773 00:40:35,283 --> 00:40:39,303 I've definitely been looking at one or two more recently, based on some of the work 774 00:40:39,303 --> 00:40:40,463 that we're doing. 775 00:40:40,823 --> 00:40:45,723 So yeah, and that'd be really useful for me to look at as well, because I'm kind of 776 00:40:45,723 --> 00:40:46,423 new to the team. 777 00:40:46,423 --> 00:40:49,643 So it would help me on board and kind of think, well, what even is going on around 778 00:40:49,643 --> 00:40:50,423 here anyway? 779 00:40:50,423 --> 00:40:54,411 So that would be like a double edged, a double. 780 00:40:54,411 --> 00:40:59,571 And from a testing point of view, you know, similar models, like a lot of models 781 00:40:59,571 --> 00:41:01,411 are very similar, but we get different names. 782 00:41:01,411 --> 00:41:06,791 You know, if you were going to do like, you know, even just the flow diagram that 783 00:41:06,791 --> 00:41:11,801 a lot of us maybe get taught in some of the certifications that exist in testing, 784 00:41:11,801 --> 00:41:12,101 right? 785 00:41:12,101 --> 00:41:15,571 It's like, you know, the different ways decision points you can go to have you 786 00:41:15,571 --> 00:41:16,931 covered the whole tree. 787 00:41:16,931 --> 00:41:20,151 But, you know, it's more from a higher level. 788 00:41:20,151 --> 00:41:24,227 I tend to use screenshots and like, you know, use that. 789 00:41:24,491 --> 00:41:28,591 And then as I said, technical under the hood, but anyway, you need to learn about 790 00:41:28,591 --> 00:41:29,021 a system. 791 00:41:29,021 --> 00:41:32,091 It's going to make you, it's going to help you, especially when you go visual in my, 792 00:41:32,091 --> 00:41:34,191 in my, I love visual stuff. 793 00:41:34,191 --> 00:41:34,891 So. 794 00:41:34,891 --> 00:41:41,711 Well, I like any model that makes it easier for you to talk about the change. 795 00:41:41,811 --> 00:41:47,651 With the user flow diagram, when you're talking about a change, you could start to 796 00:41:47,651 --> 00:41:54,191 say, well, what's gonna be different after we do implement this feature, like after 797 00:41:54,191 --> 00:41:56,991 we create this capability or whatever, what's gonna be different? 798 00:41:56,991 --> 00:42:00,851 And then you compare that up with like an architecture diagram. 799 00:42:00,851 --> 00:42:01,923 It's like, okay. 800 00:42:03,339 --> 00:42:06,619 What calls are being made under the hood when I go from that screen to the other 801 00:42:06,619 --> 00:42:06,999 screen? 802 00:42:06,999 --> 00:42:07,849 Why are you smiling? 803 00:42:07,849 --> 00:42:10,219 Oh God, have we conceded another goal? 804 00:42:10,219 --> 00:42:13,789 No, no, I'm smiling because I can see what you're doing, right? 805 00:42:13,789 --> 00:42:17,379 So if you're listening to this, Vernon's like moving his hand around, but he's 806 00:42:17,379 --> 00:42:18,739 actually pointing. 807 00:42:18,739 --> 00:42:21,479 He's got his finger out and he's pointing. 808 00:42:21,799 --> 00:42:26,979 And me and Mark Winteringham in our automation training, we talk about the 809 00:42:26,979 --> 00:42:32,159 importance of visualizing stuff because of what Mark coined as pointability. 810 00:42:32,539 --> 00:42:36,139 Your ability to point a diagram. 811 00:42:36,139 --> 00:42:39,211 And it is so much easier because if you don't have it, 812 00:42:39,211 --> 00:42:42,371 we're talking about different models in our head and we think we might be talking 813 00:42:42,371 --> 00:42:44,971 about the same thing, but we're not. 814 00:42:44,971 --> 00:42:48,851 Whereas as soon as you visualize it, even if it's the worst drawing in the world, 815 00:42:48,851 --> 00:42:49,211 right? 816 00:42:49,211 --> 00:42:50,531 And we've all done those drawings, right? 817 00:42:50,531 --> 00:42:52,461 Where we start as a square, right? 818 00:42:52,461 --> 00:42:53,451 This talks to that. 819 00:42:53,451 --> 00:42:56,051 And then if that maybe did that, and if that did that, and if this did that, 820 00:42:56,051 --> 00:42:56,151 right? 821 00:42:56,151 --> 00:43:00,811 You've got this epic squiggle on the board now, but because you did it together, you 822 00:43:00,811 --> 00:43:02,311 know what it means. 823 00:43:02,351 --> 00:43:06,111 So when you have this visualization, you can start pointing like, I think it 824 00:43:06,111 --> 00:43:06,931 happens there. 825 00:43:06,931 --> 00:43:08,459 I think it happens here. 826 00:43:08,459 --> 00:43:09,735 Yeah. 827 00:43:09,735 --> 00:43:13,225 to there, you can't do that without that visual. 828 00:43:13,225 --> 00:43:17,295 Well, you can, but there's the danger that you're not on the same page. 829 00:43:17,315 --> 00:43:19,075 So I just, cause I could see you doing this. 830 00:43:19,075 --> 00:43:20,963 It just made me, it reminded me of that. 831 00:43:21,163 --> 00:43:23,443 I wonder how you do that in an accessible way though. 832 00:43:23,443 --> 00:43:29,743 Like say you've got someone on your team who's visually impaired, how do you, how 833 00:43:29,743 --> 00:43:32,303 does that model manifest itself? 834 00:43:32,303 --> 00:43:33,753 I haven't really thought about that before. 835 00:43:33,753 --> 00:43:35,245 It's just because we're talking. 836 00:43:35,245 --> 00:43:39,475 you probably, you probably need the visualization to then describe that 837 00:43:39,475 --> 00:43:44,115 visualization as opposed to basically sharing your thoughts so that they 838 00:43:44,115 --> 00:43:46,315 visualize it in their head their own way. 839 00:43:46,315 --> 00:43:49,475 Here, you would have to say, this is a box connected to another box. 840 00:43:49,475 --> 00:43:54,395 Maybe, maybe be a bit more explicit with your, because I think a lot of people 841 00:43:54,395 --> 00:43:56,595 don't realize as well with visualization. 842 00:43:56,595 --> 00:44:00,535 It's a bit like when we spoke about abstracts last week, it's, it's getting it 843 00:44:00,535 --> 00:44:02,305 out of your head into some form. 844 00:44:02,305 --> 00:44:03,819 It's not going to be correct. 845 00:44:03,819 --> 00:44:08,259 But it's going to be much better than, like me before that, in the same episode 846 00:44:08,259 --> 00:44:12,839 trying to explain, you know, Stephen's screen that he was building, right? 847 00:44:12,839 --> 00:44:17,339 It's, if I'd drawn that five minutes before talking about it, I probably would 848 00:44:17,339 --> 00:44:21,609 have found it a lot easier as opposed to doing it in real time. 849 00:44:21,609 --> 00:44:25,979 So it's that, I think it's that explaining your attempt to visualise and it would 850 00:44:25,979 --> 00:44:27,371 make a big difference. 851 00:44:27,371 --> 00:44:34,291 He just reminded me, so when I was reviewing the last episode, I was doing it 852 00:44:34,291 --> 00:44:36,251 in the kitchen while I was cooking. 853 00:44:37,071 --> 00:44:42,211 And so my wife was coming and looked over my shoulder and looked at, that I was 854 00:44:42,211 --> 00:44:44,811 watching on a Surface Go tablet. 855 00:44:45,651 --> 00:44:49,751 And she was laughing, because like, you're, whenever you talk, your hands are, 856 00:44:49,751 --> 00:44:53,643 you're so much more expressive than Rich, like Rich is not. 857 00:44:53,643 --> 00:44:56,863 using his hands and your hands are everywhere and your face is doing crazy 858 00:44:56,863 --> 00:44:57,213 things. 859 00:44:57,213 --> 00:44:59,083 I was like, oh, okay. 860 00:44:59,603 --> 00:45:00,499 So that was it. 861 00:45:00,499 --> 00:45:05,279 but I Twitch a lot so I'm holding, I've usually got something in my hands that's 862 00:45:05,279 --> 00:45:08,519 stopping me from doing that. 863 00:45:08,859 --> 00:45:11,399 I wonder how that affects things for the podcast. 864 00:45:11,399 --> 00:45:13,079 Like I'm pointing at stuff. 865 00:45:13,667 --> 00:45:21,047 leads into a talk that I know I did go to that didn't, which was, let me find the 866 00:45:21,047 --> 00:45:22,247 notes. 867 00:45:23,507 --> 00:45:28,606 It was Melissa Rocks and it was communication with anxiety. 868 00:45:28,867 --> 00:45:33,511 So again, quite a good interactive session. 869 00:45:33,511 --> 00:45:37,331 want to get into this one Rich, you don't want to check the results. 870 00:45:38,603 --> 00:45:39,703 Me? 871 00:45:41,579 --> 00:45:45,039 Oh, the anxiety of being a United fan. 872 00:45:45,899 --> 00:45:49,059 because we're bloody losing like this is no good. 873 00:45:49,059 --> 00:45:51,059 we're both losing now. 874 00:45:51,179 --> 00:45:56,199 But honestly, Melissa gave a really honest, vulnerable talk about her own 875 00:45:56,199 --> 00:46:02,479 struggles with anxiety and depression, talking about how basically she's quite 876 00:46:02,479 --> 00:46:07,359 open with it in the workplace and how that's improved the way, you know, her 877 00:46:07,359 --> 00:46:13,179 work life, but also how she's now trying to use the same methods with the people 878 00:46:13,179 --> 00:46:14,499 that she's managing. 879 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,439 And there was a few things that came up. 880 00:46:18,571 --> 00:46:23,581 She calls self doubt questions, you know, like, am I good enough? 881 00:46:23,581 --> 00:46:24,131 Can I do that? 882 00:46:24,131 --> 00:46:25,131 Is this and that? 883 00:46:25,131 --> 00:46:29,471 She calls them brain weasels, which I really liked. 884 00:46:30,431 --> 00:46:34,291 And yeah, she was talking about how she has all these brain weasels. 885 00:46:34,291 --> 00:46:41,971 But the biggest takeaway for me was thinking about what you can do to reduce 886 00:46:41,971 --> 00:46:44,291 someone's anxiety in the workplace. 887 00:46:44,291 --> 00:46:44,715 So. 888 00:46:44,715 --> 00:46:48,185 Not even without necessarily knowing that that person is anxious. 889 00:46:48,185 --> 00:46:51,235 I think when you do know that and you've built that relationship, then I think 890 00:46:51,235 --> 00:46:56,935 obviously you should be doing it, but also just generally what can you do to reduce 891 00:46:56,935 --> 00:46:58,055 some of that anxiety? 892 00:46:58,055 --> 00:47:02,755 And, you know, she gave us a, she challenged us to think of ways of, um, 893 00:47:02,755 --> 00:47:07,055 what currently happens that makes you anxious in the workplace. 894 00:47:07,055 --> 00:47:12,115 So the common one that everyone joked about was, you know, um, Vernon, um, I 895 00:47:12,115 --> 00:47:13,589 think we need to have a chat. 896 00:47:13,963 --> 00:47:15,395 Hahaha! 897 00:47:15,539 --> 00:47:18,699 you know, uh, can we have a little talk? 898 00:47:18,959 --> 00:47:21,479 Uh, you know, I think we've all been there, right? 899 00:47:21,479 --> 00:47:24,359 You know, the Slack message, uh, you know, let's have a little chat. 900 00:47:24,359 --> 00:47:28,879 Um, and I think, I think the Slack message is also bad, but I've had it in real life 901 00:47:28,879 --> 00:47:32,419 as well, where it's like, I think we need to have a chat and like, can we not just 902 00:47:32,419 --> 00:47:33,489 do it now? 903 00:47:33,489 --> 00:47:34,979 Like, why are you telling me? 904 00:47:34,979 --> 00:47:38,419 Like, you know, it's like, we're literally stood here with each other now. 905 00:47:38,419 --> 00:47:40,439 Can let's just have the chat. 906 00:47:40,839 --> 00:47:41,291 Um, 907 00:47:41,291 --> 00:47:46,051 And if it, if we can't be done right now, is it really a chat or, you know, like, 908 00:47:46,051 --> 00:47:46,711 what is it? 909 00:47:46,711 --> 00:47:47,331 And then that's it. 910 00:47:47,331 --> 00:47:48,111 You're now anxious. 911 00:47:48,111 --> 00:47:48,891 You're thinking about it. 912 00:47:48,891 --> 00:47:51,111 You're, you know, you worry in. 913 00:47:51,111 --> 00:47:52,471 And then, yeah. 914 00:47:52,471 --> 00:47:59,311 And then she was saying, you know, what could you, what could you do to basically 915 00:47:59,311 --> 00:48:02,631 stop that, you know, to, to reduce that for somebody else? 916 00:48:02,631 --> 00:48:05,751 And so, no, no, there's a step in the middle, an important step in the middle. 917 00:48:05,751 --> 00:48:07,751 She was like, what are other people doing? 918 00:48:07,831 --> 00:48:10,691 And then she asked us, do we do any of them? 919 00:48:11,211 --> 00:48:15,331 So we're all quite open quite quickly about, oh God, I hate when people do that. 920 00:48:15,331 --> 00:48:16,771 And that makes me anxious. 921 00:48:16,771 --> 00:48:22,951 And, you know, meetings with no agendas came up, you know, you know, this, can we 922 00:48:22,951 --> 00:48:23,691 have a chat? 923 00:48:23,691 --> 00:48:26,311 And then we were like, what do we do? 924 00:48:26,311 --> 00:48:28,171 And I was like, well, what do I do? 925 00:48:28,171 --> 00:48:31,511 You know, and I often ping developers saying, can you help me? 926 00:48:31,511 --> 00:48:33,371 You know, like that I was thinking about that. 927 00:48:33,371 --> 00:48:36,461 Is that, does that reduce, you know, increase anxiety maybe? 928 00:48:36,461 --> 00:48:37,753 I'm not sure. 929 00:48:37,995 --> 00:48:41,065 And then she was asking, what can we do to mitigate it? 930 00:48:41,065 --> 00:48:42,595 So I've made a note here. 931 00:48:42,595 --> 00:48:45,615 It was Vernon, can we have a chat? 932 00:48:45,735 --> 00:48:46,255 Don't worry. 933 00:48:46,255 --> 00:48:47,195 It's all good. 934 00:48:47,195 --> 00:48:49,375 You know, there's nothing, nothing to worry about. 935 00:48:49,375 --> 00:48:51,215 Just, just, just going to have a chat. 936 00:48:51,215 --> 00:48:53,295 Does that help? 937 00:48:53,295 --> 00:48:54,365 Maybe it helps. 938 00:48:54,365 --> 00:48:56,849 It depends how much you know that person maybe. 939 00:48:57,435 --> 00:49:03,423 Yeah I still dislike it because I... 940 00:49:03,423 --> 00:49:07,011 you're having a chat with me or just... 941 00:49:07,011 --> 00:49:08,791 friendly may ask that. 942 00:49:09,191 --> 00:49:17,331 I always find it, I'm realizing that I am not, it depends who's saying it, I think. 943 00:49:17,331 --> 00:49:20,431 So maybe, yeah, so maybe it does come down to that trust thing. 944 00:49:20,551 --> 00:49:24,231 But it depends on a bunch of different things, to be honest. 945 00:49:24,231 --> 00:49:26,251 Like when are they saying it? 946 00:49:26,251 --> 00:49:28,451 How are they saying it? 947 00:49:28,851 --> 00:49:32,321 Like even if they're saying, oh, don't worry about it, it's fine. 948 00:49:32,987 --> 00:49:36,787 There's ways you can say, don't worry, everything's fine. 949 00:49:37,567 --> 00:49:40,227 And there are contexts in which you can say, oh, everything's fine, that are gonna 950 00:49:40,227 --> 00:49:44,947 make you think things are not fine at all. 951 00:49:45,187 --> 00:49:46,307 Do you know what I mean? 952 00:49:46,307 --> 00:49:51,347 But I know what they're getting at, for sure. 953 00:49:52,007 --> 00:50:00,167 There's definitely ways you can just not take the necessary care and cause a lot of 954 00:50:00,167 --> 00:50:01,019 anxiety. 955 00:50:01,019 --> 00:50:02,009 Yeah. 956 00:50:02,009 --> 00:50:07,959 just by not being mindful of how what you're saying is going to be received by 957 00:50:07,959 --> 00:50:09,179 the person. 958 00:50:09,379 --> 00:50:15,519 And also if you haven't, if you haven't, if, in fact, forget that, if you, for 959 00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:22,319 whatever reason, if you're not aware of how that person thinks, and that, you 960 00:50:22,319 --> 00:50:26,819 know, if you're a leader of people and you don't have a sense of how the people in 961 00:50:26,819 --> 00:50:29,819 your team communicate and how, you know, 962 00:50:29,819 --> 00:50:34,199 to some degree how they perceive the world and what makes them comfortable and 963 00:50:34,199 --> 00:50:39,199 uncomfortable, then again, you increase the odds of causing some inadvertent 964 00:50:39,199 --> 00:50:40,359 damage. 965 00:50:40,859 --> 00:50:44,659 And that's the takeaway for those on the watching, not watching, I'm just showing 966 00:50:44,659 --> 00:50:46,079 people my notebook. 967 00:50:46,099 --> 00:50:50,199 She made a kind of a call to action to say, look, if your manager's not done 968 00:50:50,199 --> 00:50:52,999 that, you tell them. 969 00:50:53,099 --> 00:50:57,819 So she was like, talk to your managers, tell them about how you would like to be 970 00:50:57,819 --> 00:51:02,859 managed and how you would like to be interacted with that's going to help you 971 00:51:02,859 --> 00:51:09,119 manage your anxiety, if it's the case that you have that. 972 00:51:10,299 --> 00:51:13,479 Okay, nice, nice. 973 00:51:13,591 --> 00:51:20,071 then a fun thing she did, which was she introduced spoon theory, which I actually 974 00:51:20,071 --> 00:51:24,151 knew about, but I asked you off air if you knew about spoon theory. 975 00:51:25,311 --> 00:51:33,371 It's basically, no, so essentially, right, if you're having a really good day, right, 976 00:51:33,371 --> 00:51:37,531 the example would be you're having a really good day, so you might wake up in 977 00:51:37,531 --> 00:51:41,075 incredible mood, you've got 20 spoons that you can spend for the day. 978 00:51:41,115 --> 00:51:44,655 And then certain activities take a number of spoons off you. 979 00:51:44,655 --> 00:51:46,725 So brushing your teeth, having a shower, right? 980 00:51:46,725 --> 00:51:48,455 It might take two of your spoons away. 981 00:51:48,455 --> 00:51:51,295 So now you've got two, you've got 18 spoons, right? 982 00:51:51,295 --> 00:51:55,825 The effort of driving to work is going to take a couple of spoons off you. 983 00:51:55,825 --> 00:52:00,155 You've got to go to a planning meeting that's taken a few spoons off you. 984 00:52:00,155 --> 00:52:03,315 So, you know, come to the end of the day, you might only have a few spoons left, but 985 00:52:03,315 --> 00:52:06,355 you still might have all these tasks to do or whatever, right? 986 00:52:06,355 --> 00:52:10,235 Or if you're planning your day and you know you've got a few spoons. 987 00:52:10,235 --> 00:52:13,335 You can maybe plan it in a way that's going to help you. 988 00:52:13,335 --> 00:52:17,305 So don't do the, I don't know, don't clean the bathroom today, right? 989 00:52:17,305 --> 00:52:19,875 Because you know, you've only got 10 spoons. 990 00:52:19,875 --> 00:52:21,535 That's going to take five off you. 991 00:52:21,535 --> 00:52:23,975 And now you've only got five left for the day. 992 00:52:23,975 --> 00:52:28,775 So she gave us a worksheet to go off that already had, you know, pre -assigned 993 00:52:28,775 --> 00:52:31,175 numbers of spoons for various tasks. 994 00:52:31,175 --> 00:52:33,225 But she was telling you to think about that. 995 00:52:33,225 --> 00:52:36,799 And on certain days where you know, you've only got a few spoons. 996 00:52:37,403 --> 00:52:42,163 make sure you look after yourself and you're selective with the tasks you take. 997 00:52:42,203 --> 00:52:46,263 Um, because also she was talking about how some people, they get into negative spoons 998 00:52:46,263 --> 00:52:49,423 and then they carry that for a few days. 999 00:52:49,423 --> 00:52:53,063 So you might end up, you know, minus five spoons and now you're going to have to get 1000 00:52:53,063 --> 00:52:57,503 those five spoons back at some point because you only have a, you know, a 1001 00:52:57,503 --> 00:52:58,563 finite number. 1002 00:52:58,563 --> 00:53:02,063 So you might have a knock on effect for a couple of days now where you're chasing 1003 00:53:02,063 --> 00:53:05,275 your tail or you're constantly tired or whatever, right? 1004 00:53:05,275 --> 00:53:06,121 Mmm. 1005 00:53:06,121 --> 00:53:07,531 so yeah, that's spoon theory. 1006 00:53:07,531 --> 00:53:11,631 It's this idea of having a number of spoons and doing things and spends them. 1007 00:53:11,631 --> 00:53:14,941 And even the mundane stuff takes your spoons away, right? 1008 00:53:14,941 --> 00:53:17,451 You know, they're just feeding yourself, right? 1009 00:53:17,451 --> 00:53:18,931 Cooking, right? 1010 00:53:18,931 --> 00:53:23,011 These things take your spoons away, but I think the important one was acknowledging 1011 00:53:23,011 --> 00:53:26,871 that, you know, like if you realize you've got, if you've not got much left, maybe 1012 00:53:26,871 --> 00:53:31,643 that's a sign to, I don't know, have a ready meal or just have. 1013 00:53:31,643 --> 00:53:34,793 beans on toast or something, you know, while we're all the food, right? 1014 00:53:34,793 --> 00:53:38,403 Something lightweight, because you've acknowledged that I've spent my spoons 1015 00:53:38,403 --> 00:53:39,163 already. 1016 00:53:39,163 --> 00:53:43,843 And if I go now and cook myself a 60 minute, 30 minute meal or whatever, right, 1017 00:53:43,843 --> 00:53:46,473 I'm going to put myself in negative spoon territory. 1018 00:53:46,473 --> 00:53:49,403 So I think it's like an analogy for energy maybe, I'm not sure. 1019 00:53:49,403 --> 00:53:50,767 Mood, energy, whatever. 1020 00:53:51,515 --> 00:54:00,575 That's almost like, like what's the, it reminds me of a saying, parental advice is 1021 00:54:00,575 --> 00:54:03,075 a parental advisory warning. 1022 00:54:03,395 --> 00:54:06,055 Like I don't have any fucks left to give. 1023 00:54:06,115 --> 00:54:08,431 That's what it, that's what I'm. 1024 00:54:08,431 --> 00:54:16,271 what I thought when she said it yeah yeah I've seen people have t -shirts with that 1025 00:54:16,271 --> 00:54:19,063 that say no fucks to give no fucks left 1026 00:54:19,063 --> 00:54:20,743 what's the measurement of a spoon? 1027 00:54:20,743 --> 00:54:21,683 Do you know what I mean? 1028 00:54:21,683 --> 00:54:23,643 But how do you know how many spoons you've got? 1029 00:54:23,643 --> 00:54:25,183 It's like story points. 1030 00:54:25,523 --> 00:54:26,803 How much is one? 1031 00:54:26,803 --> 00:54:36,583 If I've got one spoon, how many rich spoons is equivalent to one verne spoon? 1032 00:54:36,891 --> 00:54:37,611 I don't know. 1033 00:54:37,611 --> 00:54:38,811 That's a good point. 1034 00:54:38,811 --> 00:54:40,850 Someone did mention that in our group, I think. 1035 00:54:40,850 --> 00:54:44,671 Not all spoons are created, not all spoons are equal, all the activities. 1036 00:54:44,731 --> 00:54:48,871 But there was one thing that, the analogy I've just come off, just glancing at my 1037 00:54:48,871 --> 00:54:52,451 phone to see if there's any football changes, is just thinking of it as your 1038 00:54:52,451 --> 00:54:53,171 battery level. 1039 00:54:53,171 --> 00:54:53,711 You know what I mean? 1040 00:54:53,711 --> 00:54:56,091 Certain activities on your phone drain your battery. 1041 00:54:56,091 --> 00:54:59,231 It'll be the same for you on any given day, right? 1042 00:54:59,231 --> 00:55:00,391 I use cooking a minute. 1043 00:55:00,391 --> 00:55:01,211 I love cooking. 1044 00:55:01,211 --> 00:55:04,771 Like cooking actually probably recharges my battery, like even though maybe 1045 00:55:04,771 --> 00:55:07,351 mentally my battery, but not my physical one, obviously, right. 1046 00:55:07,351 --> 00:55:11,671 Cause I'm, I'm expelling energy, but yeah, it was really good talk anyway. 1047 00:55:11,671 --> 00:55:15,491 And made me reflect a lot about, you know, some of the interactions I have at work. 1048 00:55:15,491 --> 00:55:21,451 And sometimes I feel like I don't call out people who do some of that anxiety 1049 00:55:21,451 --> 00:55:22,671 producing behavior. 1050 00:55:22,671 --> 00:55:28,431 You know, like tomorrow I've got a meeting, um, which is, um, it's like a 1051 00:55:28,431 --> 00:55:31,091 late minute kind of, um, 1052 00:55:31,451 --> 00:55:35,651 I can't remember what they called it, like, bringing people up to speed kind of 1053 00:55:35,651 --> 00:55:35,901 session. 1054 00:55:35,901 --> 00:55:37,151 That's all it says. 1055 00:55:37,151 --> 00:55:40,211 And it's like, well, what are we being brought up to speed on? 1056 00:55:40,211 --> 00:55:42,321 Like, you know, is it, is it something good? 1057 00:55:42,321 --> 00:55:43,101 Is it something bad? 1058 00:55:43,101 --> 00:55:43,731 Like, what is it? 1059 00:55:43,731 --> 00:55:44,491 What is it? 1060 00:55:44,491 --> 00:55:48,811 You know, just give us a brief agenda, but like sometimes, you know, I've not called 1061 00:55:48,811 --> 00:55:49,321 it out. 1062 00:55:49,321 --> 00:55:50,751 Maybe I should. 1063 00:55:52,315 --> 00:55:56,045 Maybe like see what it's about I suppose. 1064 00:55:56,045 --> 00:55:58,375 Well I suppose you've got no choice, no one's gonna anti -message you. 1065 00:55:58,375 --> 00:56:02,455 So it's like, you know, you'll find out tomorrow. 1066 00:56:02,708 --> 00:56:09,508 So the last one on Jitslist is Ian Thomas showed us how they test at Meta and more 1067 00:56:09,508 --> 00:56:12,128 specifically how to test VR apps. 1068 00:56:12,128 --> 00:56:15,848 It's great to see that the test pyramid is still going strong. 1069 00:56:16,404 --> 00:56:17,544 Is it? 1070 00:56:17,544 --> 00:56:19,104 I hate the pyramid. 1071 00:56:19,704 --> 00:56:22,164 I need that on a t -shirt. 1072 00:56:22,164 --> 00:56:24,024 I hate the test pyramid. 1073 00:56:24,824 --> 00:56:26,574 Yeah, I didn't make it to that one. 1074 00:56:26,574 --> 00:56:30,644 I think again, I've got an allergic reaction to the test pyramid. 1075 00:56:30,844 --> 00:56:37,024 So, you know, while I imagine it will be really like, it's more the way the, 1076 00:56:37,024 --> 00:56:39,484 there's talks from me on YouTube. 1077 00:56:39,484 --> 00:56:40,644 We'll do the whole link thing. 1078 00:56:40,644 --> 00:56:41,794 We can't do the link thing yet. 1079 00:56:41,794 --> 00:56:44,984 We need a thousand subscribers to do the link thing. 1080 00:56:45,524 --> 00:56:47,344 These are more subscribers. 1081 00:56:48,084 --> 00:56:51,304 Yeah, to do external links, subscribe. 1082 00:56:51,984 --> 00:56:58,184 But there's a talk on YouTube where I talk about the pyramid, and it's more when 1083 00:56:58,184 --> 00:57:01,503 people use it as a strategy as opposed to for me, a heuristic. 1084 00:57:01,503 --> 00:57:04,324 That's my preference for the model. 1085 00:57:04,324 --> 00:57:08,324 But I do think it encourages you to think of the layers in your system, which I 1086 00:57:08,324 --> 00:57:11,224 think that talk I imagine would have been about that. 1087 00:57:11,224 --> 00:57:13,872 What layers exist in a VR? 1088 00:57:13,972 --> 00:57:18,192 System that you can test on so your eyes of why it gone. 1089 00:57:18,192 --> 00:57:19,812 What's happened? 1090 00:57:20,112 --> 00:57:26,292 Oh Oh double whammy 2 -2 United 2 -0 Everton. 1091 00:57:26,292 --> 00:57:32,152 Oh my goodness, Vernon I think we might have to keep this I might have to do 90 1092 00:57:32,152 --> 00:57:40,392 minutes on this podcast just to get to the end of the games Oh mate feel for you not 1093 00:57:40,392 --> 00:57:43,988 So yeah that 1094 00:57:43,988 --> 00:57:47,428 But what you've just seen there actually is how I react when I hear the word test 1095 00:57:47,428 --> 00:57:48,348 pyramid. 1096 00:57:48,348 --> 00:57:53,188 For those not listening, Vernon is in utter despair right now. 1097 00:57:55,732 --> 00:57:59,292 But there was one more talk that I'll go to. 1098 00:57:59,292 --> 00:58:04,732 But before we talk about the final talk, I just want to, like, this is a talk about 1099 00:58:04,732 --> 00:58:06,432 me going to a Atelier right? 1100 00:58:06,432 --> 00:58:10,152 But I want to, it shows the power of going to a conference that there was so many 1101 00:58:10,152 --> 00:58:12,722 topics that have been open to me. 1102 00:58:12,722 --> 00:58:16,272 And now I'm talking about them with you and you're listening to them and they 1103 00:58:16,272 --> 00:58:20,612 might be triggering you to go research something based on what we're listening. 1104 00:58:20,852 --> 00:58:24,420 And that, for me, that's the kind of, there's two. 1105 00:58:24,436 --> 00:58:28,136 There's multiple things, but two that stand out for me with conferences, it is 1106 00:58:28,136 --> 00:58:36,476 that connecting with people, networking, friendships, you know, if you're a 1107 00:58:36,476 --> 00:58:39,096 speaker, having people come talk to you about your stuff, like there's lots of 1108 00:58:39,096 --> 00:58:41,516 ways of actually connecting with people and talking to them. 1109 00:58:41,516 --> 00:58:43,336 I think that's massively important. 1110 00:58:43,336 --> 00:58:49,216 But then just this kind of trigger to remember experiences and topics and a list 1111 00:58:49,216 --> 00:58:52,692 of things to go and look at, like my notes, the way. 1112 00:58:52,692 --> 00:58:53,224 Mm -hmm. 1113 00:58:53,224 --> 00:58:58,404 remembered how I took notes because, you know, I'm back in the hands -on QE role, 1114 00:58:58,404 --> 00:58:58,574 right? 1115 00:58:58,574 --> 00:59:04,004 So now I'm, I'm listening a lot more intently to a lot of the talks because, 1116 00:59:04,004 --> 00:59:06,194 you know, I'm, I'm doing that job again. 1117 00:59:06,194 --> 00:59:10,264 And I remembered that I used to use icons for my notes. 1118 00:59:10,264 --> 00:59:12,334 So like, if it's a tool, I draw a little spanner. 1119 00:59:12,334 --> 00:59:14,104 If it's a book, I draw a book. 1120 00:59:14,104 --> 00:59:17,994 Uh, you know, if it's an article, I draw a little memo article, right? 1121 00:59:17,994 --> 00:59:20,324 And that's reminded me of my notes. 1122 00:59:20,324 --> 00:59:21,236 Um, 1123 00:59:21,236 --> 00:59:26,036 But yeah, conferences, listening to things like this podcast, reading articles, 1124 00:59:26,036 --> 00:59:31,656 they're all just great ways of thinking of finding topics that might trigger your 1125 00:59:31,656 --> 00:59:32,758 next learning. 1126 00:59:33,492 --> 00:59:38,212 Yeah, 100 % folks, like go and consume all the resources out there. 1127 00:59:38,752 --> 00:59:43,822 The books, the other podcasts that are out there, the ones that we listen to. 1128 00:59:43,822 --> 00:59:46,832 I was just listening to the adobo and avocado. 1129 00:59:47,292 --> 00:59:48,552 Is it a podcast? 1130 00:59:48,552 --> 00:59:54,192 The live stream with Alexander, Alexandra, she's gonna hate me. 1131 00:59:54,192 --> 00:59:56,712 Alex Schladebeck sorry Alex. 1132 00:59:56,712 --> 00:59:58,852 Gave you the full name. 1133 00:59:59,932 --> 01:00:02,708 Yeah, go and consume all that stuff, but in particular. 1134 01:00:02,708 --> 01:00:07,188 Whenever you get a chance, if you get a chance, try and interact with people and 1135 01:00:07,188 --> 01:00:09,388 build up your network and build up your knowledge. 1136 01:00:09,388 --> 01:00:12,182 And then crucially. 1137 01:00:13,876 --> 01:00:17,676 Implement what you've learned, experiment with what you've learned, try and use it. 1138 01:00:17,676 --> 01:00:21,476 Especially with topics like accessibility, that's where we can really make a big 1139 01:00:21,476 --> 01:00:22,322 difference. 1140 01:00:23,636 --> 01:00:24,796 Absolutely. 1141 01:00:24,796 --> 01:00:28,576 And yeah, so the final session, not the final session I went to, but the final 1142 01:00:28,576 --> 01:00:31,716 session we're going to talk about is Jit himself. 1143 01:00:31,716 --> 01:00:36,396 So, we spoke about Jit talking at Periscom, but like Jit is, you know, like 1144 01:00:36,396 --> 01:00:40,416 we said last time, fantastic speaker, great at sharing his experiences. 1145 01:00:40,416 --> 01:00:46,636 This time around, he was talking about speed versus quality and can we have both? 1146 01:00:47,256 --> 01:00:52,576 So the way he structured it was kind of the way that it's viewed, you know, that 1147 01:00:52,576 --> 01:00:53,396 we... 1148 01:00:53,396 --> 01:00:55,966 We want more quality, so we work harder, right? 1149 01:00:55,966 --> 01:00:59,856 So what tends to happen is the amount of effort goes up, but the quality actually 1150 01:00:59,856 --> 01:01:04,196 tends to go down because we end up starting doing bad work and so forth. 1151 01:01:04,196 --> 01:01:06,436 And, um, yeah, we struggle. 1152 01:01:06,436 --> 01:01:09,395 And then he was talking about actually, we don't want to work harder. 1153 01:01:09,395 --> 01:01:11,056 We want to work smarter. 1154 01:01:11,156 --> 01:01:16,496 Um, but the one thing that I made a note of, he shared a lot of fantastic ways of 1155 01:01:16,496 --> 01:01:22,260 doing that, but he called out the, um, the dip. 1156 01:01:22,260 --> 01:01:27,080 that you usually see when you start to try and work smarter. 1157 01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:33,280 So people expect it just to suddenly go up, but actually you're probably going to 1158 01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:40,640 see a dip in quality whilst those smarter ways of work inform and cement themselves 1159 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:41,340 in place. 1160 01:01:41,340 --> 01:01:44,436 And then you'll probably start to see that rise. 1161 01:01:44,436 --> 01:01:46,196 Yeah, I think I've seen that graph. 1162 01:01:46,196 --> 01:01:47,116 Well, I've seen that talk. 1163 01:01:47,116 --> 01:01:48,876 I'm just trying to look for the graph. 1164 01:01:50,157 --> 01:01:55,517 a pal called Kyle Goodman who runs a software house called Viva IT and he calls 1165 01:01:55,517 --> 01:01:57,637 it, what's he call it man? 1166 01:01:58,257 --> 01:02:06,217 Something like the trough of disappointment or something like that. 1167 01:02:07,077 --> 01:02:10,769 You get a new idea or you learn this new thing. 1168 01:02:10,769 --> 01:02:13,689 And you're like, this is gonna be absolutely fantastic, but that's when your 1169 01:02:13,689 --> 01:02:15,629 ignorance is at its maximum. 1170 01:02:16,389 --> 01:02:23,009 And then as the reality of how difficult or, you know, how it's significantly less 1171 01:02:23,009 --> 01:02:26,149 or more difficult than you thought it was gonna be, then you're like, oh God, this 1172 01:02:26,149 --> 01:02:28,349 is gonna be so, so bloody awful. 1173 01:02:28,349 --> 01:02:34,889 And then you start to climb out of it as your, as your ignorance decreases and your 1174 01:02:34,889 --> 01:02:36,409 skill improves. 1175 01:02:37,137 --> 01:02:39,267 Well, that's, that's kind of interesting. 1176 01:02:39,267 --> 01:02:43,107 So I'm just reading my notes again and like the way he broke down learning smart. 1177 01:02:43,107 --> 01:02:46,337 And I think I missed a bit off because I think I was thinking about something was, 1178 01:02:46,337 --> 01:02:49,977 um, you need your team needs to adopt that learning mindset. 1179 01:02:49,977 --> 01:02:52,557 He was talking a lot about that learning mindset. 1180 01:02:52,557 --> 01:02:57,377 Um, but he was talking about two ways, particularly of doing that one is flow. 1181 01:02:57,417 --> 01:03:00,837 So the way that the work is flowing through the team and is it actually 1182 01:03:00,837 --> 01:03:05,329 flowing or is it, you know, starting to get like, you know, stuck in places or. 1183 01:03:05,329 --> 01:03:07,869 so forth, like gatekeeping and things. 1184 01:03:07,869 --> 01:03:09,999 But then he spoke a lot about your need to him. 1185 01:03:09,999 --> 01:03:11,889 Cause he was talking about this from a whole team approach, right? 1186 01:03:11,889 --> 01:03:15,999 It wasn't just like, you know, quality as in testing is the only way, right? 1187 01:03:15,999 --> 01:03:18,589 He was talking about it holistically. 1188 01:03:18,729 --> 01:03:22,989 And then he was saying about the, in each capability needs also to have a plan to 1189 01:03:22,989 --> 01:03:29,349 improve itself, to continue that smart, that, that, um, working smartly. 1190 01:03:29,349 --> 01:03:32,089 So, you know, yes, you can do things to the whole. 1191 01:03:32,625 --> 01:03:34,325 do air quotes, Agile right? 1192 01:03:34,325 --> 01:03:38,105 Your whole way of working your software delivery lifecycle, you can start to make 1193 01:03:38,105 --> 01:03:39,125 improvements to that. 1194 01:03:39,125 --> 01:03:41,535 But you also need to be thinking, how can we dev better? 1195 01:03:41,535 --> 01:03:42,545 How can we test better? 1196 01:03:42,545 --> 01:03:43,985 How can we document better? 1197 01:03:43,985 --> 01:03:45,355 How can we use JIRA better? 1198 01:03:45,355 --> 01:03:46,885 Whatever it is, right? 1199 01:03:46,885 --> 01:03:51,425 Constantly having those little areas improving themselves as well within the 1200 01:03:51,425 --> 01:03:55,465 wider improvement, which was a nice thing. 1201 01:03:55,465 --> 01:03:57,155 And then you mentioned a little bit about metrics. 1202 01:03:57,155 --> 01:04:00,085 So, you know, if you're going to start talking about improving quality and, you 1203 01:04:00,085 --> 01:04:01,193 know, um, 1204 01:04:01,425 --> 01:04:03,805 uh, you know, improving speed. 1205 01:04:03,805 --> 01:04:05,185 It's like, how'd you measure that? 1206 01:04:05,185 --> 01:04:07,155 Like, what is your measurement of speed? 1207 01:04:07,155 --> 01:04:09,325 That's gotta be clearly defined upfront. 1208 01:04:09,325 --> 01:04:15,285 And he, he mentioned Dora, um, explicitly about their, uh, mean time to release as 1209 01:04:15,285 --> 01:04:17,425 quite a useful metric for speed. 1210 01:04:17,425 --> 01:04:21,705 And maybe not so much around quality perhaps, but it's a good one for speed. 1211 01:04:21,705 --> 01:04:25,475 Um, so yeah, it was like, if you're going to do it, you've got to do it smartly. 1212 01:04:25,475 --> 01:04:26,095 You've got to have a plan. 1213 01:04:26,095 --> 01:04:27,249 You've got a strategy. 1214 01:04:27,249 --> 01:04:33,389 You've got to be thinking big pitchable, so small capability kind of improvements. 1215 01:04:33,389 --> 01:04:37,259 But then yeah, you've got to have some agreed way of measuring it. 1216 01:04:37,259 --> 01:04:40,949 Otherwise, you know, if you just suddenly change what, how you measure quality 1217 01:04:40,949 --> 01:04:44,329 halfway through, it's going to screw you up. 1218 01:04:44,329 --> 01:04:44,981 So. 1219 01:04:44,981 --> 01:04:45,341 struggling. 1220 01:04:45,341 --> 01:04:46,181 I found the graph. 1221 01:04:46,181 --> 01:04:47,601 It's a it's the hype cycle. 1222 01:04:47,601 --> 01:04:49,901 It's the trough of disillusionment. 1223 01:04:50,801 --> 01:04:54,821 When you get over the peak of inflated expectations into the trough of 1224 01:04:54,821 --> 01:04:56,161 disillusionment. 1225 01:04:56,381 --> 01:05:03,625 But yeah, I think the thing I want to say about that is I did a 1226 01:05:05,297 --> 01:05:06,627 what the name of the course was. 1227 01:05:06,627 --> 01:05:11,917 It was a course by a chap called Troy McGenis or Magenis, McGenis I think that's 1228 01:05:11,917 --> 01:05:13,617 how you pronounce it. 1229 01:05:13,677 --> 01:05:18,137 I think he's a Kiwi, I think he's from New Zealand, lives in the US. 1230 01:05:18,137 --> 01:05:24,677 And it was a course about coaching your team with data. 1231 01:05:25,297 --> 01:05:32,217 And he talked about Dora and he was like saying, well, actually they're kind of, 1232 01:05:32,217 --> 01:05:34,803 they might be lagging indicators. 1233 01:05:35,217 --> 01:05:38,497 And what might be interesting, what's an interesting exercise to do is to kind of 1234 01:05:38,497 --> 01:05:44,877 say, well, what are the things that precede, say, throughput? 1235 01:05:44,877 --> 01:05:47,727 Like how would you know that your throughput was gonna go up or down? 1236 01:05:47,727 --> 01:05:53,477 Like if it was gonna go down, you know, maybe you'd over committed to some work in 1237 01:05:53,477 --> 01:05:55,937 your sprint or your cycle, for example. 1238 01:05:55,937 --> 01:06:00,177 And maybe that might be a leading indicator of your throughput going down. 1239 01:06:02,193 --> 01:06:03,373 So I thought that was interesting. 1240 01:06:03,373 --> 01:06:08,033 But yeah, anything Jit's got to say about anything, I will listen to. 1241 01:06:08,033 --> 01:06:10,023 Is this talk, is that online anywhere? 1242 01:06:10,023 --> 01:06:12,757 Because they don't record their talks at Atelier, do they? 1243 01:06:12,757 --> 01:06:15,757 I think they go on the YouTube for Tellur. 1244 01:06:15,757 --> 01:06:19,957 So yeah, that's a really good point, but I did not even entertain. 1245 01:06:19,957 --> 01:06:24,757 You can watch all these talks and realize if Richard's talking utter gibberish or 1246 01:06:24,757 --> 01:06:27,157 his memory's shot or whatever. 1247 01:06:27,157 --> 01:06:28,607 Yeah, they were recorded. 1248 01:06:28,607 --> 01:06:29,917 So yeah, they should be. 1249 01:06:29,917 --> 01:06:30,927 They should be on somewhere. 1250 01:06:30,927 --> 01:06:32,499 I'm going to guess YouTube. 1251 01:06:33,713 --> 01:06:38,873 I'm going in the show notes and I'll try and well depends on when we post this 1252 01:06:38,873 --> 01:06:42,013 thing but if the talks are up I'll link directly to the talks if not I'll just 1253 01:06:42,013 --> 01:06:48,177 link to the channel and you can see them there so that was that the last 1254 01:06:48,177 --> 01:06:51,177 yeah, one done that, one done that, one done that, one... 1255 01:06:54,673 --> 01:06:58,883 I went to another talk which was about exploratory testing from Brian Elmer, 1256 01:06:58,883 --> 01:07:02,253 which I'd already seen at a meetup in Manchester. 1257 01:07:02,612 --> 01:07:08,373 But yeah, he basically gave us a good insight into their view of exploratory 1258 01:07:08,373 --> 01:07:13,753 testing, gave us quite a fun challenge of how would you test a lift, explicitly 1259 01:07:13,753 --> 01:07:18,873 trying to break down the what you would test, as in, because people generally have 1260 01:07:18,873 --> 01:07:22,929 ideas quite quickly, but then also then why would you test that? 1261 01:07:22,929 --> 01:07:23,469 Yeah. 1262 01:07:23,469 --> 01:07:27,109 explicitly about how you would go about testing that. 1263 01:07:27,569 --> 01:07:31,649 So yeah, it was, you know, that's kind of a model I feel you could use for any 1264 01:07:31,649 --> 01:07:32,669 aspect to test them. 1265 01:07:32,669 --> 01:07:36,129 But, you know, when you, when even if you do an exploratory testing, sometimes the 1266 01:07:36,129 --> 01:07:37,209 ideas are flowing, right? 1267 01:07:37,209 --> 01:07:42,929 And it's like, actually, what do I do kind of first and go about doing that? 1268 01:07:42,929 --> 01:07:48,249 And then he was mentioning one thing I did write down, which was kind of more about 1269 01:07:48,249 --> 01:07:49,425 how I view it. 1270 01:07:49,425 --> 01:07:53,985 Brian spoke a lot about breaking things and how he loves as a tester, you know, to 1271 01:07:53,985 --> 01:07:56,485 break things and he's, that's kind of his mission. 1272 01:07:56,485 --> 01:07:58,315 And he's just like, I really want to break it. 1273 01:07:58,315 --> 01:08:01,325 I want to find out, you know, what, what fine ways of breaking it. 1274 01:08:01,325 --> 01:08:07,485 But it made me think like, I was trying to think of an analogy for it, but yes, I 1275 01:08:07,485 --> 01:08:11,185 want like, I know I view things as like I reveal where they're broken, but my 1276 01:08:11,185 --> 01:08:15,405 curiosity goes to, and it always has done, I've already mentioned it in the same 1277 01:08:15,405 --> 01:08:18,385 episode, but like I'm curious about how it works. 1278 01:08:18,385 --> 01:08:20,265 That's the thing I get to. 1279 01:08:20,265 --> 01:08:23,705 It's like, yes, this product's here, but I'm like, how was it built? 1280 01:08:23,705 --> 01:08:25,325 How was it hung together? 1281 01:08:25,325 --> 01:08:30,505 Cause that's going to help me think of ways that I can go about finding if it's 1282 01:08:30,505 --> 01:08:31,365 broken. 1283 01:08:31,365 --> 01:08:36,565 Um, so I, for me, it's more like, yes, I want to break it, but my immediate one is 1284 01:08:36,565 --> 01:08:37,795 how does it work? 1285 01:08:37,795 --> 01:08:39,085 How does it hang together? 1286 01:08:39,085 --> 01:08:44,285 And I want to know that because then I can find the cracks and like, get my, get my 1287 01:08:44,285 --> 01:08:46,994 testing skills inside there and see if I can pull it apart. 1288 01:08:47,651 --> 01:08:54,991 That is, yeah, I used to say that all the time, you know, that I break software. 1289 01:08:55,411 --> 01:08:58,631 But yeah, I suppose it's not actually true. 1290 01:08:58,631 --> 01:09:04,391 It arrives how it arrives and, you know, at least part of our job is to figure out, 1291 01:09:04,391 --> 01:09:06,971 you know, what state is it in? 1292 01:09:07,211 --> 01:09:10,231 And how does that compare to the state that we think it's in? 1293 01:09:10,231 --> 01:09:12,171 a meetup in Macsfield. 1294 01:09:12,611 --> 01:09:17,531 It's my developer relationship tester, developer tester relationship talk. 1295 01:09:17,531 --> 01:09:20,791 And it's just like little doodles that I draw and I kind of changed the narrative 1296 01:09:20,791 --> 01:09:23,091 depending on where I am at the same time. 1297 01:09:23,091 --> 01:09:28,211 But one of the doodles is basically putting an X -ray machine over the 1298 01:09:28,211 --> 01:09:29,131 product. 1299 01:09:29,131 --> 01:09:33,851 And then there's basically broken pipes and you can see the internal workings of 1300 01:09:33,851 --> 01:09:34,787 the system. 1301 01:09:34,787 --> 01:09:38,007 So I use that to basically talk about, I didn't break it. 1302 01:09:38,007 --> 01:09:42,447 You know, like a lot of testers get great pride in going around going, I've broken 1303 01:09:42,447 --> 01:09:43,007 it. 1304 01:09:43,007 --> 01:09:44,157 I've broken it. 1305 01:09:44,157 --> 01:09:47,427 And it's like, well, you didn't break it. 1306 01:09:47,427 --> 01:09:50,107 You found where it was broken. 1307 01:09:50,107 --> 01:09:56,067 And I think it, I think it's a power, a very powerful shift that not to make the 1308 01:09:56,067 --> 01:10:00,987 developer feel that they broke it, but for them to acknowledge that, you know, they 1309 01:10:00,987 --> 01:10:01,877 not, I don't know. 1310 01:10:01,877 --> 01:10:04,323 It sounds like a blame game now, but like, you know, they. 1311 01:10:04,323 --> 01:10:05,923 They did something wrong, right? 1312 01:10:05,923 --> 01:10:08,203 They coded it wrong, but not intentionally. 1313 01:10:08,203 --> 01:10:11,733 It's not like they went, I'm going to build this thing wrong, right? 1314 01:10:11,733 --> 01:10:15,563 But to help them realize that there might be a different way they could have 1315 01:10:15,563 --> 01:10:16,123 improved that. 1316 01:10:16,123 --> 01:10:18,983 And I think it's kind of a fun relationship to quality too, as opposed to 1317 01:10:18,983 --> 01:10:22,803 it's broken fix it to how did it end up broken? 1318 01:10:22,803 --> 01:10:24,863 Why did we deliver it broken early on? 1319 01:10:24,863 --> 01:10:27,629 And what can we do to stop that in the future? 1320 01:10:27,779 --> 01:10:29,099 Right. 1321 01:10:29,539 --> 01:10:33,088 I find it because here's the thing. 1322 01:10:33,657 --> 01:10:36,777 Ode is not the only way that bugs can get into a system. 1323 01:10:39,033 --> 01:10:44,873 So I worked at a place where we used to charge credit card fees when people were 1324 01:10:44,873 --> 01:10:45,873 checking out. 1325 01:10:45,873 --> 01:10:50,953 They would buy, you know, it was an airline and they would buy their airline 1326 01:10:50,953 --> 01:10:53,033 tickets and we would add a fee. 1327 01:10:53,213 --> 01:10:55,413 And suddenly the law changed. 1328 01:10:55,413 --> 01:11:00,293 Nothing changed about our system except the context in which it operated. 1329 01:11:00,293 --> 01:11:02,865 And now our feature became a bug. 1330 01:11:03,097 --> 01:11:07,186 And so I don't like to position things as, oh, well, you did something wrong, 1331 01:11:07,186 --> 01:11:12,177 developer, because that implies that the only way bugs are created is by them. 1332 01:11:12,177 --> 01:11:13,777 It's not really true. 1333 01:11:13,777 --> 01:11:19,617 But if you need hyping up testers and testing specialists, quality engineers, 1334 01:11:19,617 --> 01:11:22,337 QAs, whatever you call yourself, check this out. 1335 01:11:22,337 --> 01:11:26,597 Because I've got a Michelangelo quote for you that describes our job perfectly. 1336 01:11:26,597 --> 01:11:28,137 Check this out. 1337 01:11:28,617 --> 01:11:31,481 I saw the angel in the marble. 1338 01:11:31,481 --> 01:11:37,261 and I carved until I set him free, which is how I like to think about software 1339 01:11:37,261 --> 01:11:38,041 testing. 1340 01:11:38,041 --> 01:11:43,281 The state of the system, our understanding of it is hidden in the marble and our 1341 01:11:43,281 --> 01:11:50,101 tests are chipping away at the ignorance to reveal the reality of the situation 1342 01:11:50,101 --> 01:11:51,001 hidden within. 1343 01:11:51,001 --> 01:11:53,961 And that's how I like to think about software testing. 1344 01:11:54,381 --> 01:11:59,401 So, Vernon and Richard Cho bringing you a bit of a culture and art as well as some 1345 01:11:59,401 --> 01:12:00,445 software developments. 1346 01:12:00,445 --> 01:12:01,585 think we should even try. 1347 01:12:01,585 --> 01:12:04,645 So I think we should wrap it up there. 1348 01:12:05,105 --> 01:12:09,925 If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe, please encourage others to subscribe, 1349 01:12:09,925 --> 01:12:11,465 share links to the episodes. 1350 01:12:11,465 --> 01:12:17,085 And obviously we love feedback, good, bad, share it, comment on it, tell us please. 1351 01:12:17,085 --> 01:12:21,050 We definitely wanna hear your thoughts and improve. 1352 01:12:21,382 --> 01:12:25,442 Yeah, please like, share, comment, let us know. 1353 01:12:25,442 --> 01:12:27,902 We appreciate all the listeners that we've had so far. 1354 01:12:27,902 --> 01:12:29,892 Blows me away that people are even listening at all. 1355 01:12:29,892 --> 01:12:31,182 Absolutely incredible. 1356 01:12:31,182 --> 01:12:33,840 I'm just gonna check the football before we disappear. 1357 01:12:34,718 --> 01:12:40,238 leave you in tension Vernon as you're losing currently two now. 1358 01:12:42,246 --> 01:12:46,406 no tension it's abject misery we have failed this season it's not good man it's 1359 01:12:46,406 --> 01:12:50,690 not good well we won a trophy i guess that's okay but we had such high hopes 1360 01:12:50,690 --> 01:12:57,590 was possible and then in a matter of weeks, that's a bit, is that Liverpool a 1361 01:12:57,590 --> 01:13:01,790 bit like developers then, you know, building this product, hoping it's gonna 1362 01:13:01,790 --> 01:13:05,810 be really brilliant and then just destroying it in a matter of days. 1363 01:13:08,422 --> 01:13:13,202 That is disrespectful to everybody that you mentioned in that comparison. 1364 01:13:13,202 --> 01:13:14,942 Absolute disgrace. 1365 01:13:14,942 --> 01:13:16,662 You see what I've got to deal with here people? 1366 01:13:16,662 --> 01:13:19,302 Friendly tester my ass. 1367 01:13:19,302 --> 01:13:20,582 Good grief. 1368 01:13:20,582 --> 01:13:25,002 On that note, we love you. 1369 01:13:25,002 --> 01:13:26,322 Good night, God bless. 1370 01:13:26,322 --> 01:13:28,002 We'll see you on the next episode.