1 00:00:07,863 --> 00:00:08,983 All right. 2 00:00:08,983 --> 00:00:12,323 Hello and welcome to this episode of Beyond Titles. 3 00:00:12,323 --> 00:00:16,923 I'm very excited to be joined by Brendan Grove today. 4 00:00:16,923 --> 00:00:29,223 So we're going to have a lot of interesting conversation about, you know, translating technical language and technical skill into the business world to find success and to find 5 00:00:29,223 --> 00:00:31,743 collaboration of all kinds. 6 00:00:31,803 --> 00:00:36,343 So, Brendan, I would love to pass it over to you just to give us a little bit of an intro. 7 00:00:36,823 --> 00:00:39,164 about who you are and your journey to this point. 8 00:00:39,342 --> 00:00:40,102 Yeah, of course. 9 00:00:40,102 --> 00:00:41,702 Thanks for having me. 10 00:00:41,802 --> 00:00:43,102 Like you said, my name is Brendan. 11 00:00:43,102 --> 00:00:45,902 I head up tech and data for PrizeOut. 12 00:00:45,902 --> 00:00:53,722 So we work with both gaming companies, but more specifically credit unions, building their rewards products. 13 00:00:54,382 --> 00:01:00,882 So like you said, there's a lot of translation between, you what are we doing on the backend? 14 00:01:00,882 --> 00:01:09,486 How do we create this integration to how do we create the product that both our credit unions and their members expect? 15 00:01:09,486 --> 00:01:15,346 without everyone needing to understand all that went into it. 16 00:01:15,406 --> 00:01:20,046 This journey to this point started off at DraftKings after going to WashU in St. 17 00:01:20,046 --> 00:01:29,406 Louis being a mechanical engineer and just kind of naturally picked the things I thought were most interesting and here I am. 18 00:01:29,406 --> 00:01:31,622 So I'm sure we'll get into more as we go. 19 00:01:32,033 --> 00:01:32,954 Yes, definitely. 20 00:01:32,954 --> 00:01:33,775 And here you are. 21 00:01:33,775 --> 00:01:35,936 We're so grateful that you are here. 22 00:01:35,936 --> 00:01:41,391 And I'm sure that the journey has had uh mountains and valleys and everything in between. 23 00:01:41,391 --> 00:01:47,936 uh So we'll start with uh an easy question, I suppose. 24 00:01:49,659 --> 00:01:51,310 where was PrizeOut born from? 25 00:01:51,310 --> 00:01:53,622 What was the idea behind it? 26 00:01:53,622 --> 00:01:55,584 uh Did it start as an idea? 27 00:01:55,584 --> 00:01:57,465 Did it start as technology? 28 00:01:57,465 --> 00:01:58,826 Give us a little bit of insight there. 29 00:01:58,826 --> 00:01:59,526 m 30 00:01:59,526 --> 00:02:04,626 so our CEO, David, was running a paid trivia company. 31 00:02:04,926 --> 00:02:07,826 So, right, I know more than you about podcasting. 32 00:02:07,826 --> 00:02:11,926 So we're going to compete for $5 and winner takes, you nine of it. 33 00:02:11,926 --> 00:02:13,706 And his company made a dollar. 34 00:02:13,706 --> 00:02:17,206 And as that was happening, users were withdrawing to gift card. 35 00:02:17,206 --> 00:02:23,486 So on one side he was acquiring users on the other side, he was basically giving them to brands for free. 36 00:02:23,566 --> 00:02:26,286 And that was kind of the impetus of the idea. 37 00:02:26,286 --> 00:02:28,598 I was at DraftKings at the time. 38 00:02:28,598 --> 00:02:36,001 another one of our co-founders, Matt, ah who knew David through a mutual friend and uh us plus some others got together. 39 00:02:36,001 --> 00:02:42,354 David explained his vision ah and basically asked each of us, like, can we do our part of it? 40 00:02:42,354 --> 00:02:44,025 So for me, was, you know, can you build it? 41 00:02:44,025 --> 00:02:50,127 ah I was data science at the time, which was engineering and algorithms. 42 00:02:50,307 --> 00:02:54,349 And so I had my part pretty cleanly defined. 43 00:02:54,609 --> 00:02:57,110 We started there and kind of 44 00:02:57,580 --> 00:02:58,987 ended up in credit unions. 45 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:02,184 Can you build it? 46 00:03:02,184 --> 00:03:04,896 What a big ominous question, right? 47 00:03:04,896 --> 00:03:10,506 It was, can you, no, was actually, do you understand it? 48 00:03:10,506 --> 00:03:11,489 Like, do you get it? 49 00:03:11,489 --> 00:03:12,809 And can you build it? 50 00:03:12,970 --> 00:03:17,732 And I was like, I think I understand the idea and I'm pretty sure I can build it. 51 00:03:17,732 --> 00:03:22,504 And that was the kicking off point for our relationship. 52 00:03:23,091 --> 00:03:23,792 Amazing. 53 00:03:23,792 --> 00:03:29,429 And how many iterations have you had to date from, do you understand, can you build to now? 54 00:03:29,806 --> 00:03:41,433 uh So we ended up finding early success in gaming and I think one of the directives was where else could it be or where else should it exist. 55 00:03:41,673 --> 00:03:51,439 And so we ended up integrating to, I think it was 10 or 11 at one point, different industries, building products and kind of feature sets around this core idea of how do we 56 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:56,852 connect users and their money to brands outside of the traditional rail. 57 00:03:57,110 --> 00:04:03,054 But Credit Unions was the one that we found uh even more success than our early days of gaming. 58 00:04:03,054 --> 00:04:05,276 And it's definitely the one that we've doubled down on. 59 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:18,755 uh That has taken many iterations of the product, just in terms of how do we build something that's different, that members really love, that matches the ethos of the Credit 60 00:04:18,755 --> 00:04:19,435 Union mission. 61 00:04:19,435 --> 00:04:22,907 So it's been fun, it's been challenging. 62 00:04:22,908 --> 00:04:26,924 It's taken, right, like the idea of this isn't good enough. 63 00:04:26,924 --> 00:04:27,124 Right? 64 00:04:27,124 --> 00:04:33,925 Like this doesn't meet the expectations we're setting out for ourselves, even if others might be happy with it. 65 00:04:33,925 --> 00:04:37,780 So we've just continued down that path of perfecting. 66 00:04:38,185 --> 00:04:38,765 Okay. 67 00:04:38,765 --> 00:04:42,378 Ooh, that's a really interesting one that I'd like to dig into. 68 00:04:42,378 --> 00:04:53,045 Um, because I think that there's, it's interesting when you're on a founding team and your co-founder and you have an idea of what great and excellent looks like. 69 00:04:53,045 --> 00:04:58,649 And to others who come in, they might say, yeah, but people love it they're buying it. 70 00:04:58,649 --> 00:05:06,334 So how do you balance and how do you have those conversations with your team to say, there's a, I guess there's a gap in expectations. 71 00:05:06,334 --> 00:05:08,105 We need to close that gap. 72 00:05:08,177 --> 00:05:14,595 And have you ever had to rethink those expectations for yourself to say, Hey, maybe this is good enough. 73 00:05:14,894 --> 00:05:18,254 Well, the second question, definitely. 74 00:05:19,614 --> 00:05:27,614 I took a personality exam at DraftKings when I became a manager and I was extreme on two things. 75 00:05:27,614 --> 00:05:34,274 One was a dominant personality in terms of like aggressiveness and the other one was perfection. 76 00:05:34,914 --> 00:05:39,574 And the comment was like most people with one don't have the other, right? 77 00:05:39,574 --> 00:05:41,914 So like you got to be careful. 78 00:05:41,914 --> 00:05:44,954 Like you expect everything to be done now perfectly. 79 00:05:45,154 --> 00:05:49,468 And I was like, yeah, that's a pretty good rendition of the expectation. 80 00:05:49,468 --> 00:05:52,910 So that has had to be adjusted. 81 00:05:52,910 --> 00:05:59,605 think the conversation around, like, is it good enough? 82 00:05:59,766 --> 00:06:03,309 A lot of times internally, it's kind of two things. 83 00:06:03,309 --> 00:06:05,230 It's what are members telling us? 84 00:06:05,230 --> 00:06:06,201 Like, what's the data say? 85 00:06:06,201 --> 00:06:09,394 Because that's really the holy grail of everything. 86 00:06:09,394 --> 00:06:14,614 ah Like, is it Craig's List looks like it was made? 87 00:06:14,614 --> 00:06:20,296 in five minutes and it has probably spurned more startups than any other company. 88 00:06:20,456 --> 00:06:29,460 think the second part too is just, my mom said something to me when I was little and it would be, this your best? 89 00:06:30,454 --> 00:06:32,201 And if that's your best, that's okay. 90 00:06:32,201 --> 00:06:34,722 ah But is this your best? 91 00:06:34,802 --> 00:06:38,144 And that was across the board, report cards, it didn't matter. 92 00:06:38,144 --> 00:06:40,905 So think internally too, we say, is this our best? 93 00:06:40,905 --> 00:06:43,254 Is this the best we can do for members? 94 00:06:43,254 --> 00:06:44,706 And if the answer is no, 95 00:06:44,706 --> 00:06:46,868 then let's fix it, right? 96 00:06:46,868 --> 00:06:54,634 Like, yeah, it might only be happening to 2 % of people on specific Android devices, but like, is it our best? 97 00:06:54,634 --> 00:07:00,818 And so I think we kind of try to hold ourselves to that standard as well, even if it doesn't always show in the data. 98 00:07:01,471 --> 00:07:02,372 I love that. 99 00:07:02,372 --> 00:07:03,193 really love that. 100 00:07:03,193 --> 00:07:15,108 And not only is that helpful for the quality of the product, but what a sense of ownership over individual growth that you're allowing your team to have by asking that question. 101 00:07:15,108 --> 00:07:15,498 Right? 102 00:07:15,498 --> 00:07:18,250 Do you notice that in tax performance? 103 00:07:18,872 --> 00:07:27,536 Yeah, I think anytime people care, right, it means you're going to get two things from your team. 104 00:07:27,536 --> 00:07:31,307 You're going to get opinions and you're going to get frustrations. 105 00:07:31,427 --> 00:07:42,311 And if you try to eliminate either, you've kind of quashed their curiosity and their ownership and their autonomy. 106 00:07:42,392 --> 00:07:46,613 But you've also, if you don't have that, you've probably hired the wrong people. 107 00:07:46,613 --> 00:07:46,893 Right? 108 00:07:46,893 --> 00:07:47,914 So like, 109 00:07:49,574 --> 00:07:55,699 Just like what I was telling you, I'm a strong personality and you'll see it come out at times. 110 00:07:55,799 --> 00:07:59,702 like if that means that people won't fire back at you, then you've done something wrong. 111 00:07:59,702 --> 00:08:01,304 I like conflict. 112 00:08:01,304 --> 00:08:05,616 So if I say something and you disagree and the team feels comfortable, they're just going to fire right back. 113 00:08:05,616 --> 00:08:08,910 And sometimes people are like, whoa, what is happening? 114 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:10,071 And I'm like, no, it's good. 115 00:08:10,071 --> 00:08:10,871 Like we care. 116 00:08:10,871 --> 00:08:13,113 We all want to build something better. 117 00:08:13,113 --> 00:08:14,534 um 118 00:08:15,338 --> 00:08:25,078 But yeah, that's been a learning point for me too in terms of like perfection, in terms of like letting people find their way, um letting people figure out what they want to do uh 119 00:08:25,078 --> 00:08:27,602 next versus me always dictating. 120 00:08:28,668 --> 00:08:32,794 I just want to repeat that because that was such an impactful sentence. 121 00:08:32,794 --> 00:08:36,720 When people care, you're going to get two things, opinions and frustrations. 122 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,622 And it's so true. 123 00:08:38,622 --> 00:08:40,916 And both can be managed. 124 00:08:40,916 --> 00:08:44,510 are conversations at the end of the day, but both lead to excellence. 125 00:08:44,788 --> 00:08:48,899 And if both are centered around the right thing, right? 126 00:08:48,899 --> 00:08:50,001 It's easy. 127 00:08:50,081 --> 00:08:53,673 And we say people are very transparent with their intentions, right? 128 00:08:53,673 --> 00:08:55,625 Like very few people can mask them. 129 00:08:55,625 --> 00:09:00,448 Is this what they think is best for Prize Out or the member of the credit union? 130 00:09:00,448 --> 00:09:02,048 Or is this what they think is best for them? 131 00:09:02,048 --> 00:09:11,490 ah Sometimes people try to like mask one as the other, but nobody's as sneaky as they think they are, myself included. 132 00:09:11,490 --> 00:09:15,533 I'm sure my intentions when I try to do it the other way are quite clear. 133 00:09:15,594 --> 00:09:19,227 But if we're always trying to hold that thing central, right? 134 00:09:19,227 --> 00:09:21,599 Like, are we building a better product right now? 135 00:09:21,599 --> 00:09:25,123 ah There's no politics. 136 00:09:25,123 --> 00:09:26,224 It's just work. 137 00:09:26,224 --> 00:09:28,846 And it's just, you know, us trying to make something better. 138 00:09:28,846 --> 00:09:34,121 And I think that it also creates this foundation of like, are we discussing or are we debating? 139 00:09:34,121 --> 00:09:35,692 Because like, I don't want to debate. 140 00:09:35,692 --> 00:09:37,644 um I will discuss. 141 00:09:37,995 --> 00:09:39,417 Yes, yes. 142 00:09:39,417 --> 00:09:39,917 Amazing. 143 00:09:39,917 --> 00:09:46,295 So it sounds like you've got a open, transparent, healthy culture at Prize Out. 144 00:09:46,295 --> 00:09:49,139 And would you say that it's always been that way? 145 00:09:49,139 --> 00:09:54,375 Or was there a lot of work that went into developing this kind of culture? 146 00:09:54,698 --> 00:09:56,247 I think it's always work. 147 00:09:56,247 --> 00:09:57,671 It's probably like a... 148 00:10:06,423 --> 00:10:07,323 You're not? 149 00:10:08,090 --> 00:10:10,141 I can start again at that point. 150 00:10:31,281 --> 00:10:32,173 note. 151 00:10:38,013 --> 00:10:39,420 Okay, sorry about that. 152 00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:40,613 You were saying. 153 00:10:42,223 --> 00:10:47,139 Alright, I'll start with it's always work if that works for you. 154 00:10:47,265 --> 00:10:48,178 Perfect. 155 00:10:50,624 --> 00:10:54,958 I'd it's always work to create and maintain a culture. 156 00:10:54,958 --> 00:11:01,183 um I think it starts at the top always and it always starts with the CEO, right? 157 00:11:01,183 --> 00:11:06,327 Like there's no world in which the culture is probably not set by them. 158 00:11:06,327 --> 00:11:09,490 um And then you need first followers, right? 159 00:11:09,490 --> 00:11:11,311 No one can lead without followers. 160 00:11:11,311 --> 00:11:12,823 And I think that kind of trickles down. 161 00:11:12,823 --> 00:11:18,377 The one thing David said is a certain point, people need to tell your story. 162 00:11:18,377 --> 00:11:19,594 um 163 00:11:19,594 --> 00:11:21,815 and like nobody's perfect. 164 00:11:22,577 --> 00:11:25,139 are they saying what you want them to say? 165 00:11:25,139 --> 00:11:31,814 Understanding that like people are going to complain, they're going to vent, people are going to hate their boss at times. 166 00:11:31,814 --> 00:11:33,185 That's just all natural. 167 00:11:33,185 --> 00:11:40,212 um But I think that it's growth of us as a team too. 168 00:11:40,212 --> 00:11:47,980 Like you need to build those relationships and you have to have this central group that kind of is embodying what 169 00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:49,701 you want the culture to be. 170 00:11:49,701 --> 00:11:53,752 And I don't think you can ever start with like, is what I want it to be. 171 00:11:53,752 --> 00:11:55,083 It's different at every company. 172 00:11:55,083 --> 00:11:56,431 It's different for every product. 173 00:11:56,431 --> 00:11:57,934 It's different for every team. 174 00:11:57,934 --> 00:12:04,997 So you kind of have to give each other space to like get better and change and learn and find working relationships. 175 00:12:04,997 --> 00:12:07,418 um Changes as the team grows. 176 00:12:07,418 --> 00:12:08,658 It changes as we get better. 177 00:12:08,658 --> 00:12:09,139 It changes. 178 00:12:09,139 --> 00:12:10,679 You bring in new people. 179 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:17,710 It's like integrating people now is different than like building the culture, which I think happened earlier. 180 00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:22,713 ah And also letting it change and evolve and update. 181 00:12:22,713 --> 00:12:32,037 ah So I would say it's a living organism more than it is, ah you know, a word on a wall that we came up with five years ago. 182 00:12:32,037 --> 00:12:33,618 Like, I don't think that ever really. 183 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,022 Yeah, which is fantastic. 184 00:12:37,022 --> 00:12:39,434 That's the sign of true leadership in my opinion, right? 185 00:12:39,434 --> 00:12:47,513 Because it will change and it should change if you're still stuck, stagnant from five years ago, then what does that mean for your product too? 186 00:12:47,513 --> 00:12:48,384 Has that evolved? 187 00:12:48,384 --> 00:12:53,058 Like the words on the wall have not. 188 00:12:53,202 --> 00:12:56,204 and it changes when you have different needs. 189 00:12:56,204 --> 00:13:02,016 uh think it's Ben Horowitz talks about wartime CEO versus peacetime CEO. 190 00:13:02,016 --> 00:13:11,302 And I think about it sometimes like wartime versus peacetime CTO is like there's yeah, there's times when you have to do things a certain way. 191 00:13:11,302 --> 00:13:15,393 I try to be transparent like, yeah, this is gonna suck. 192 00:13:15,393 --> 00:13:18,964 Like, we're gonna go hub and spoke like 193 00:13:19,126 --> 00:13:20,836 we're going to run a lot of one-to-one here. 194 00:13:20,836 --> 00:13:24,568 We're going to go super flat and it's going to be six months of craziness. 195 00:13:24,568 --> 00:13:28,869 like, trust me that everything's okay and trust me that this is what we need to do. 196 00:13:28,869 --> 00:13:32,270 ah But I'm not going to sit there and pull the wool over your eyes. 197 00:13:32,270 --> 00:13:34,550 And other times, like you can't do that all the time. 198 00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:37,031 Other times it's like, okay, now we have structure again. 199 00:13:37,031 --> 00:13:39,212 We have, you know, we know where we're going. 200 00:13:39,212 --> 00:13:43,093 We've, we've, we've kind of figured out a few things along the way. 201 00:13:43,093 --> 00:13:44,743 So I think we've, we've ebbed and flow. 202 00:13:44,743 --> 00:13:47,286 We've been product led, we've been sales led, right? 203 00:13:47,286 --> 00:13:53,106 It's just not a one size fits all, especially when you're trying to make something work. 204 00:13:53,771 --> 00:13:54,931 Yeah, absolutely. 205 00:13:54,931 --> 00:13:58,674 With everybody with the same objective and the same goal at the end of the day. 206 00:13:58,674 --> 00:14:10,640 uh And I'd really like to dig into something that you just mentioned about being product-led and sales-led and seen with a lot of organizations, especially that are 207 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:19,585 technology-focused, that there's often two different ideas of how to sell something, what that looks like in almost two different languages. 208 00:14:19,585 --> 00:14:22,839 And you, as I've heard from your team, blend 209 00:14:22,839 --> 00:14:27,099 those two worlds and those two languages very well. 210 00:14:27,099 --> 00:14:35,695 So what's your trick in helping the teams bridge that gap that most, I would say, most CTOs struggle with? 211 00:14:36,620 --> 00:14:38,461 Yeah, it's two. 212 00:14:38,461 --> 00:14:46,654 think one, just being honest about who's in charge of certain decisions or certain, uh call them like roughly things. 213 00:14:46,654 --> 00:14:56,678 So I think you see that even when it comes down to smaller decisions like product or who makes the final call and uh a microservice that exists. 214 00:14:56,678 --> 00:15:01,280 uh Is product supporting sales or is sales supporting product? 215 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:02,901 And it can be different. 216 00:15:02,901 --> 00:15:03,485 It can change. 217 00:15:03,485 --> 00:15:04,775 It can be different based on the people. 218 00:15:04,775 --> 00:15:06,592 It be different based on the product. 219 00:15:06,618 --> 00:15:13,752 But like one person needs to lead and the other person needs to create the conflict that you know is the rocks in the tumbler making something better. 220 00:15:13,752 --> 00:15:21,387 So you know if we draw that kind of analogy I guess or metaphor I don't actually know which is which. 221 00:15:21,387 --> 00:15:32,263 Through to conclusion like my job is easy it is always support right like if we're building technology we're supporting product we're supporting sales we're supporting the 222 00:15:32,263 --> 00:15:33,582 business we're 223 00:15:33,582 --> 00:15:37,806 trying to integrate like we're either integrated or we're not and it's binary. 224 00:15:37,806 --> 00:15:40,828 So I think it lets you kind of throw your ego aside. 225 00:15:40,828 --> 00:15:51,246 um Let's you get into the weeds and it lets you tell the person what they need to know to get to the outcome that you need to get to. 226 00:15:51,246 --> 00:15:51,827 Right? 227 00:15:51,827 --> 00:15:53,819 You don't need to be the smartest person in the room. 228 00:15:53,819 --> 00:16:02,496 You don't need to have everyone know that this wasn't your fault or the frustration they're experiencing is like theirs because of something in the business. 229 00:16:02,496 --> 00:16:03,298 It's like 230 00:16:03,298 --> 00:16:09,403 You can just recognize, like, if you flip the empathy, like, the situation could be frustrating for them. 231 00:16:09,403 --> 00:16:10,884 You totally understand. 232 00:16:10,884 --> 00:16:12,486 You have extreme empathy. 233 00:16:12,486 --> 00:16:15,748 And, like, here's how we could solve the problem. 234 00:16:15,748 --> 00:16:16,649 Like, what do you think? 235 00:16:16,649 --> 00:16:19,451 ah My parents were teachers. 236 00:16:19,471 --> 00:16:20,652 I think that probably helped. 237 00:16:20,652 --> 00:16:24,895 ah Like, you try to explain it three different ways. 238 00:16:24,896 --> 00:16:32,241 And ultimately, what I like to say to our engineers, because every engineer thinks they're the smartest person that's ever lived, for the most part. 239 00:16:32,241 --> 00:16:33,230 ah 240 00:16:33,230 --> 00:16:40,210 You know, we aren't always the most socially adept and we definitely think we're smarter than we are. 241 00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:45,650 So what I say is it doesn't matter if you're the smartest if nobody understands. 242 00:16:45,690 --> 00:16:45,910 Right? 243 00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:48,150 So that's great that you have the solution. 244 00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:50,010 That's awesome that you think everyone else is stupid. 245 00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:51,270 Like, that's cool. 246 00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:53,010 I agree, actually. 247 00:16:53,010 --> 00:16:54,870 Like, let's go on to the starting point that I agree. 248 00:16:55,210 --> 00:16:57,650 How do you get what we need done then? 249 00:16:57,650 --> 00:16:59,290 Like, convince them. 250 00:16:59,290 --> 00:17:01,230 Be the smartest person and get them on board. 251 00:17:01,230 --> 00:17:01,510 Right? 252 00:17:01,510 --> 00:17:03,370 If you're so effing smart. 253 00:17:03,394 --> 00:17:05,136 then double them. 254 00:17:05,297 --> 00:17:10,105 And so I think like, you know, those conversations don't happen a lot like that. 255 00:17:10,105 --> 00:17:15,896 But, you know, there's times when frustrations bubble up and ultimately our job is support and our job is to get it done. 256 00:17:15,896 --> 00:17:17,958 So let's go figure out how to do that. 257 00:17:18,551 --> 00:17:19,452 Brilliant, brilliant. 258 00:17:19,452 --> 00:17:22,034 And I love even the terminology that you use, right? 259 00:17:22,034 --> 00:17:31,413 It's not collaborating with them, but it's supporting them, which is very much rooted in action and rooted in empathy and rooted in collaboration to some degree. 260 00:17:31,413 --> 00:17:36,969 But just the framing of it looks very different than how I've heard it couched before. 261 00:17:36,969 --> 00:17:39,362 So, we can see. 262 00:17:39,362 --> 00:17:42,824 through uh trial and error. 263 00:17:43,024 --> 00:17:44,174 Like I said, we're lucky. 264 00:17:44,174 --> 00:17:45,985 We've worked with so many different industries. 265 00:17:45,985 --> 00:17:49,406 uh I've seen very different companies. 266 00:17:49,406 --> 00:17:55,889 Even with them, see also who's in charge there, ah who's getting pushed down on. 267 00:17:55,889 --> 00:18:00,551 ah And again, how do you create that relationship? 268 00:18:01,451 --> 00:18:06,874 Imagine you're trying to integrate and the other person's been told to integrate 10 things and you're one of them. 269 00:18:06,874 --> 00:18:08,140 ah 270 00:18:08,140 --> 00:18:09,830 Like they're already stressed. 271 00:18:09,830 --> 00:18:11,952 You don't need to add to that stress. 272 00:18:11,952 --> 00:18:16,244 You just like your team told you and their team told you to figure something out. 273 00:18:16,244 --> 00:18:18,556 Like we're in this together. 274 00:18:18,777 --> 00:18:19,857 I feel your pain. 275 00:18:19,857 --> 00:18:22,939 This sucks, but we're also going to get it done. 276 00:18:22,939 --> 00:18:28,072 ah So if you can be that support mechanism for them too, it's pretty valuable. 277 00:18:33,175 --> 00:18:35,635 I just muted myself because that was going off again. 278 00:18:35,635 --> 00:18:37,275 So that was perfect. 279 00:18:37,275 --> 00:18:41,235 Caught it right before, so we got all of what you just said. 280 00:18:41,235 --> 00:18:42,795 Apologies again. 281 00:18:44,015 --> 00:18:46,035 Shouldn't be long. 282 00:19:09,227 --> 00:19:11,591 Believe it or not, that's been going off for an hour. 283 00:19:11,591 --> 00:19:14,615 uh I think it works. 284 00:19:14,776 --> 00:19:16,959 I can tell them that it definitely works. 285 00:19:17,506 --> 00:19:19,094 That's good feedback, right? 286 00:19:19,094 --> 00:19:23,088 Like, hey, 100 % good. 287 00:19:23,381 --> 00:19:24,341 Yeah, yeah. 288 00:19:24,341 --> 00:19:27,033 Speaking of making things easier for people, right? 289 00:19:27,033 --> 00:19:31,144 And this is something that I will say for the episode here. 290 00:19:31,144 --> 00:19:35,006 I've just had to pause because the fire alarm has been going off for the last hour. 291 00:19:35,006 --> 00:19:41,019 And as Brendan was just saying, you know, don't want to add more stress to somebody else's plate. 292 00:19:41,019 --> 00:19:46,481 And if it works and if you've tested it and you can leave people in peace, then that's the best case. 293 00:19:47,301 --> 00:19:49,902 Just let them be happy. 294 00:19:50,063 --> 00:19:50,883 So... 295 00:19:51,049 --> 00:19:56,547 You spoke about, you know, taking the data and taking inspiration from other industries. 296 00:19:56,547 --> 00:20:03,416 And one question that I had early on that I want to come back to is why do you think you found so much success with credit unions? 297 00:20:03,878 --> 00:20:08,223 specifically, and you briefly touched on it, but what specifically is the alignment there? 298 00:20:08,750 --> 00:20:11,441 um Probably two. 299 00:20:11,441 --> 00:20:15,856 There's obviously a product component to any success, right? 300 00:20:15,856 --> 00:20:23,782 Like ah if the product doesn't work or the product doesn't resonate, it doesn't matter how much two people like each other. 301 00:20:25,103 --> 00:20:32,349 But I think the continued success partnership comes down to shared values more than anything else. 302 00:20:32,349 --> 00:20:37,593 I think just like what we talked about, the internal how do we make this better. 303 00:20:37,593 --> 00:20:38,574 um 304 00:20:38,574 --> 00:20:46,876 You know, how do we take some of that perfectionist mindset that I think can get in the way at times and turn it into a strength versus just a, you know, a negative. 305 00:20:46,876 --> 00:20:55,579 ah Is credit unions ultimately have a mission to support their members ah that isn't always going to be profit first? 306 00:20:55,979 --> 00:21:06,622 And I think we share a similar ethos when we build these products is we're building something that they will love, not something that we will love. 307 00:21:06,622 --> 00:21:07,724 ah 308 00:21:07,724 --> 00:21:07,934 Right? 309 00:21:07,934 --> 00:21:09,575 Like I'm not the member. 310 00:21:09,575 --> 00:21:13,476 And so we always have to kind of take that step back and remind ourselves of that. 311 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:22,900 ah But ultimately, they want to support uh people that, you know, times feel like they've been left behind or been betrayed by the financial system. 312 00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:25,461 And, you know, why don't they get rewards? 313 00:21:25,461 --> 00:21:29,223 Like, why do I get rewarded for taking out debt? 314 00:21:29,223 --> 00:21:32,344 Like, it is a crazy concept when you think about it. 315 00:21:32,424 --> 00:21:37,046 So how do we flip that and how do we get deeply embedded? 316 00:21:37,266 --> 00:21:39,567 And their teams are spending as much time as ours. 317 00:21:39,567 --> 00:21:49,451 They're doing a lot of work, technically, to give us the keys to the kingdom that will allow us to give their members what they think they deserve. 318 00:21:49,451 --> 00:21:50,886 And there's trust there. 319 00:21:50,886 --> 00:21:59,856 So they couldn't do all of those things if they didn't trust us not to go sell the data or trust us to move on to the next industry. 320 00:22:00,256 --> 00:22:03,137 And I think that is shared values. 321 00:22:03,318 --> 00:22:04,814 I don't think you can fake that. 322 00:22:04,814 --> 00:22:05,094 Right? 323 00:22:05,094 --> 00:22:09,217 Because it's every single interaction between every single person. 324 00:22:09,217 --> 00:22:11,198 It's our engineers with their team. 325 00:22:11,198 --> 00:22:17,101 It's this constant, like, if you are faking it, you will be found out. 326 00:22:17,142 --> 00:22:20,043 And so I think that's what's given us a lot of success. 327 00:22:20,043 --> 00:22:24,546 It's allowed us to integrate pretty quickly into the ecosystem. 328 00:22:24,626 --> 00:22:28,228 And I think it's going to be ultimately what allows us to build better products. 329 00:22:28,228 --> 00:22:31,700 So ah I think that's probably the most important part. 330 00:22:32,343 --> 00:22:33,354 Brilliant, brilliant. 331 00:22:33,354 --> 00:22:41,060 And I would say from what I've heard ah in this conversation as well, it sounds like, yes, the shared values are huge. 332 00:22:41,060 --> 00:22:44,953 And then you back up what you're saying with data. 333 00:22:45,394 --> 00:22:55,132 that shows, mean, if I were one of your clients, that would show me that I can trust you so much, not just because we have the shared values and we have the same objective and 334 00:22:55,132 --> 00:23:01,047 mission, but also that you've gone out and you understand what it is that people want. 335 00:23:01,419 --> 00:23:04,783 you're collecting that data and you can prove it to us that it is sustainable. 336 00:23:04,783 --> 00:23:13,324 that's, so in thinking about those two paired side by side, would you say that data plus the, we'll call them the softer skills, right? 337 00:23:13,324 --> 00:23:17,278 Understanding the values and whatnot are equally as important? 338 00:23:18,422 --> 00:23:22,644 Yeah, think data also comes in two forms. 339 00:23:22,644 --> 00:23:25,606 There's qualitative and there's the quantitative. 340 00:23:26,046 --> 00:23:32,090 So I think on the whole, like, yeah, the product needs to be engaged with and needs to work. 341 00:23:32,090 --> 00:23:43,236 I think on the softer side of data, it's the person who reaches out and tells you that they finally bought new sneakers for themselves with the cash back they've earned that 342 00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:44,616 they've never had. 343 00:23:44,696 --> 00:23:47,970 I think one of the things about credit unions, and this is 344 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:53,694 blending the data and the values is they do give a lot back to their members. 345 00:23:53,694 --> 00:23:57,397 And I don't know if they've always been given credit for it. 346 00:23:57,397 --> 00:24:02,080 So part of our product is just about celebrating the things they're already doing. 347 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,163 It's not trying to get them to be something different. 348 00:24:06,223 --> 00:24:13,148 If you want points in travel and luxury in lounges, you're going to go with Amex or something similar. 349 00:24:13,148 --> 00:24:15,992 um This isn't a product for them. 350 00:24:15,992 --> 00:24:19,666 Like this is a product for credit unions and for their members. 351 00:24:19,666 --> 00:24:26,293 And so when you hear that feedback of like, I recognize the value I'm getting and I finally did something nice for myself. 352 00:24:26,293 --> 00:24:34,272 ah I think those stories go a long way as well ah because it's building on what we're trying to do. 353 00:24:35,907 --> 00:24:46,583 how refreshing is that that you know in a world where things are constantly changing and evolving but staying true to the to the core and to why you started into the mission 354 00:24:46,583 --> 00:24:56,823 that's that's not something you hear about all that often these days I don't know yeah 355 00:24:57,252 --> 00:25:04,916 I played Call of Duty a lot growing up and they made it so complex to play that I stopped playing. 356 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:10,069 ah And I think that's how I feel personally about points and other programs. 357 00:25:10,069 --> 00:25:22,536 But I think it relates to what we were talking about internally is if the things get so complex, you need a lot of people to do it, then like maybe you're doing something wrong. 358 00:25:22,550 --> 00:25:27,632 Or if you can't explain the integration simply, like, maybe we should take a step back here. 359 00:25:27,632 --> 00:25:31,884 And so I do think there's, what entropy always goes up. 360 00:25:31,884 --> 00:25:40,358 So like things will always naturally get more complex unless you constantly try to stop it and try to refine what you're doing. 361 00:25:40,358 --> 00:25:41,828 You'll always need more hires. 362 00:25:41,828 --> 00:25:43,829 You'll always need a bigger team. 363 00:25:43,829 --> 00:25:47,041 You'll always need six decks versus one. 364 00:25:47,041 --> 00:25:50,904 And so I think that's a process that we do too, is how do we... 365 00:25:50,904 --> 00:25:56,137 How do we look at what we're doing all the time and say, like, can we make this a little bit simpler? 366 00:26:00,255 --> 00:26:02,705 Okay, I think we I think we got it, which is great. 367 00:26:02,705 --> 00:26:15,559 I will just make a note of this and 25 and then I've got one more question and then we should round out for around the between 20 and 30 minute mark. 368 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:25,042 Is there anything I was going to ask you what you believe the the most important soft skill for anybody in the technical space to have? 369 00:26:25,042 --> 00:26:28,543 But is there something else you think should be asked? 370 00:26:28,782 --> 00:26:29,619 That's fine. 371 00:26:34,692 --> 00:26:36,673 call it 26 even. 372 00:26:36,673 --> 00:26:37,713 All right. 373 00:26:39,174 --> 00:26:46,878 So Brennan, we've covered a lot of ground in a short amount of time and I can't wait to pull out some of these absolute nuggets of gold that you've shared. 374 00:26:46,878 --> 00:26:58,745 There are so many really, really not just inspirational things you've said, but I think very tangible reflection points for leaders across the board to sit and say, yeah, no, our 375 00:26:58,745 --> 00:27:02,127 team does that or our team should be doing that if they're not already. 376 00:27:02,463 --> 00:27:17,059 So my final question for you is as a CTO, as a co-founder, uh what is, you can distill it down to one that's great, or a suite of soft skills that you feel are most important for 377 00:27:17,059 --> 00:27:20,402 any technical leader to possess these days? 378 00:27:21,196 --> 00:27:21,957 technical leader. 379 00:27:21,957 --> 00:27:25,790 was gonna say, and for an engineer, think it's simple. 380 00:27:25,790 --> 00:27:27,651 It's, kind of just giving a shit. 381 00:27:27,651 --> 00:27:28,542 Like, do you care? 382 00:27:28,542 --> 00:27:31,114 And if you care, it goes a long way. 383 00:27:31,114 --> 00:27:43,484 um I think as a technical leader, the biggest thing that I had to learn, get better at practice um is you, you go from being the best in your domain to arguably the worst, 384 00:27:43,484 --> 00:27:43,835 right? 385 00:27:43,835 --> 00:27:50,606 Like you, I grew up in data science and got promoted and then I'm running front end teams and 386 00:27:50,606 --> 00:28:02,266 And I think that you also get away from the tech, you get away from the code, you get away from kind of how things get done, no matter how much you try to push, is letting go of 387 00:28:02,266 --> 00:28:13,866 being the best, know, inviting those opinions like we talked about, and also knowing like, is this my ego talking or is this, am I right? 388 00:28:13,866 --> 00:28:20,302 Right, if there's two ways to do it, and even if it's 64, do you think in your favor, like, does it really matter? 389 00:28:20,302 --> 00:28:27,125 um How can you get the person to see your concern and then handle it however they they want? 390 00:28:27,125 --> 00:28:38,840 um and just like yeah, you're gonna hear things and people are gonna question you and You have to just kind of be at peace with it and take the nugget of truth from what they're 391 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:48,244 trying to tell you because they're probably not wrong you might disagree, but there's probably something that they're experiencing that you can do better, so I think I think 392 00:28:48,244 --> 00:28:49,334 that's kind of 393 00:28:49,418 --> 00:28:53,841 One thing for me that I've had to learn, get better at is just be okay. 394 00:28:53,841 --> 00:29:03,279 ah Be okay with the frustrations, be okay with the opinions and kind of try to channel all that into like, we aligned though? 395 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:05,351 Like are we all moving in the same direction? 396 00:29:05,351 --> 00:29:10,184 And if we generally are, you know, let them keep doing what they're doing. 397 00:29:10,719 --> 00:29:13,463 Yeah, fantastic, fantastic. 398 00:29:13,463 --> 00:29:18,709 And I have to say, ah giving a shit is also one that's never come up in this question. 399 00:29:18,709 --> 00:29:22,216 And I'm so happy that you said it, because it is a big skill. 400 00:29:22,216 --> 00:29:27,382 And then removing some of that ego and being OK with not knowing everything. 401 00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:32,690 the there's no silver bullet framework. 402 00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:34,610 Are you monolith? 403 00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:35,710 Are you micro service? 404 00:29:35,710 --> 00:29:36,810 Are you some variation? 405 00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:37,510 Are you react? 406 00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:38,410 Are you angular? 407 00:29:38,410 --> 00:29:42,730 Like every person always has the new silver bullet. 408 00:29:42,730 --> 00:29:47,210 Ultimately, it's like, are you going to figure out how to make this work? 409 00:29:47,210 --> 00:29:48,710 And do you care? 410 00:29:49,550 --> 00:29:50,470 Yeah, are you smart? 411 00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:51,410 You know how to code? 412 00:29:51,410 --> 00:29:52,670 Are you thinking of the right principles? 413 00:29:52,670 --> 00:29:54,390 Like those are probably table stakes. 414 00:29:54,390 --> 00:29:57,430 But what separates great from good is just like 415 00:29:57,430 --> 00:30:03,094 I actually want to figure out what the business is trying to do and then I want to make it work faster. 416 00:30:03,114 --> 00:30:08,938 And so I think that's my do you give a shit ah ideology. 417 00:30:09,749 --> 00:30:10,580 I love it. 418 00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:11,321 love it. 419 00:30:11,321 --> 00:30:18,759 Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today to share all of your wisdom and your experience. 420 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:27,113 you know, final question for listeners, where can they find you and follow along your journey and just get to know you a little bit better? 421 00:30:27,310 --> 00:30:29,451 um That is a great question. 422 00:30:29,451 --> 00:30:33,475 I don't really maintain any social presence. 423 00:30:33,475 --> 00:30:35,096 I have a LinkedIn. 424 00:30:35,116 --> 00:30:37,538 don't maybe I've posted once on it. 425 00:30:37,538 --> 00:30:43,703 um Our head of PR finally got me to change my headshot like two years back. 426 00:30:43,784 --> 00:30:47,286 But I am at Brendan at prizeout.com. 427 00:30:47,286 --> 00:30:49,448 I'm happy to chat. 428 00:30:49,448 --> 00:30:53,692 um Happy to get pushback um if you disagree. 429 00:30:53,692 --> 00:30:56,954 And maybe at some point I will find my way into 430 00:30:57,006 --> 00:31:02,438 morpholyx fear at you know first up first I want to make the products work 431 00:31:03,179 --> 00:31:03,749 Definitely. 432 00:31:03,749 --> 00:31:06,081 No, I completely appreciate that. 433 00:31:06,561 --> 00:31:07,742 you know what? 434 00:31:07,742 --> 00:31:09,934 People can follow Prize Out's journey too, right? 435 00:31:09,934 --> 00:31:14,877 So there's many other ways that we can follow along. 436 00:31:15,150 --> 00:31:15,951 That's right. 437 00:31:15,951 --> 00:31:17,873 Yeah, definitely follow Prize Out. 438 00:31:18,254 --> 00:31:22,238 Our team loves to post and we love to celebrate some of the credit union wins. 439 00:31:22,785 --> 00:31:23,445 Okay, awesome. 440 00:31:23,445 --> 00:31:26,373 Well, we'll be celebrating with you and Brennan, thank you again so much. 441 00:31:26,373 --> 00:31:27,757 Really, really appreciate your time. 442 00:31:27,757 --> 00:31:29,544 It's been an awesome conversation. 443 00:31:29,544 --> 00:31:30,528 Yeah, thanks for having me. 444 00:31:30,528 --> 00:31:31,569 It's been fun. 445 00:31:34,237 --> 00:31:36,783 Okay, recording.