WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:02.060 Matt: Corey Miller, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:03.150 --> 00:00:04.140 Cory: my friend, Matt, 00:00:04.579 --> 00:00:08.475 Matt: Uh, man, you have, uh, Uh, storied background in WordPress. 00:00:08.475 --> 00:00:11.575 I think a lot of the folks listening to this, no, a lot of bit, a lot of 00:00:11.575 --> 00:00:15.535 it, uh, about what you've been up to, obviously post status I themes, but 00:00:15.535 --> 00:00:18.305 you've got a new role, which we're going to dive into in a little bit, 00:00:18.665 --> 00:00:22.354 a two hosting community growth, lead community, WordPress evangelist. 00:00:22.355 --> 00:00:24.495 I mean, it's like the same titles you and I, we were sharing 00:00:24.550 --> 00:00:25.180 Cory: all the things 00:00:25.645 --> 00:00:28.525 Matt: Yeah, it's all the things, uh, we're cultivating relationships, 00:00:28.535 --> 00:00:32.175 connecting people with our respective brands, talking about WordPress. 00:00:32.415 --> 00:00:33.855 We're going to dive into that in a little bit. 00:00:34.065 --> 00:00:34.815 You just go back. 00:00:35.235 --> 00:00:37.535 From WordCamp Canada. 00:00:38.015 --> 00:00:38.485 How was it? 00:00:39.550 --> 00:00:40.640 Cory: it was fantastic. 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:45.710 I tell you, uh, it'd been, I think, seven years since I've been back to Canada for a 00:00:45.710 --> 00:00:51.049 WordCamp, went to WordCamp Ottawa back in the day, and, um, it was great to be back. 00:00:51.069 --> 00:00:53.109 So we were excited. 00:00:53.109 --> 00:00:59.090 I'm excited too, because, um, for a nation to have a camp like that in our backyard, 00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:05.850 uh, Big community there and just to see them start something new in the first year 00:01:05.850 --> 00:01:11.060 is always that groundbreaking year And I gotta say it's fantastic You know, I 00:01:11.060 --> 00:01:12.720 don't know if you've organized word camps. 00:01:12.720 --> 00:01:14.550 I don't think you have I know 00:01:14.554 --> 00:01:17.785 Matt: way back WordCamp Providence, Rhode Island. 00:01:18.235 --> 00:01:19.855 I did a fundraise. 00:01:19.855 --> 00:01:23.145 This was like one of my first forays into the WordPress community. 00:01:23.565 --> 00:01:27.014 And, uh, I did, they were like, Oh, does anybody know how to do fundraising? 00:01:27.014 --> 00:01:28.045 I'm like, yeah, I can. 00:01:28.565 --> 00:01:33.085 So I, they gave me the role and the first place I called was Dunkin Donuts. 00:01:33.670 --> 00:01:37.670 Because in my head, right, in my head, because back then, like it was 00:01:37.670 --> 00:01:41.499 the Providence had, uh, the, the, the dunk, the dunk is what it was called. 00:01:41.499 --> 00:01:44.999 It was, uh, the, where like, uh, Providence College plays basketball. 00:01:44.999 --> 00:01:47.529 It was a, you know, venue, a sports arena slash venue. 00:01:47.689 --> 00:01:49.269 So I was like, well, obviously I'm going to go for the 00:01:49.269 --> 00:01:50.349 person who has the most money. 00:01:50.695 --> 00:01:52.214 Dunkin Donuts, right? 00:01:52.214 --> 00:01:55.955 And they were like, they were like, no, we can't go for that kind of sponsor. 00:01:55.955 --> 00:01:58.915 I'm like, well, what is, what backwards reality are we in here? 00:01:58.915 --> 00:02:00.915 I'm trying to raise some money, but anyway, sorry. 00:02:00.915 --> 00:02:03.255 That, that was my foray into organizing a word camp. 00:02:04.100 --> 00:02:04.740 Cory: I love that. 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:06.649 I think they're so incredible. 00:02:06.660 --> 00:02:08.810 I've probably been to 50 of them over the years. 00:02:08.829 --> 00:02:12.880 And, but my little secret is I've never been on an organizing team. 00:02:12.930 --> 00:02:15.510 I just go, Hey, no, you are passionate. 00:02:15.510 --> 00:02:16.060 You do the work. 00:02:16.099 --> 00:02:19.049 I want to help and support and tell you, thank you. 00:02:19.049 --> 00:02:22.060 And all that we can do to, to support you. 00:02:22.060 --> 00:02:23.529 Cause it's, it's such a tough job. 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:28.070 You know, that from that, it's just, it's all volunteer work and passion work. 00:02:28.089 --> 00:02:30.899 And I think the organizers are the last people to opt out. 00:02:31.005 --> 00:02:33.544 You know, really get a true thank you for that. 00:02:33.554 --> 00:02:37.094 So I always just kind of show up and go, what can I do? 00:02:37.114 --> 00:02:39.174 You know, if you need me to fold up chairs, I'll do that. 00:02:39.484 --> 00:02:45.255 Um, this, this being the first one and the organizing team is so incredible. 00:02:45.445 --> 00:02:48.184 Um, we w we want it to go into the future. 00:02:48.184 --> 00:02:49.294 So this is us saying. 00:02:49.779 --> 00:02:50.480 Thank you. 00:02:50.579 --> 00:02:51.399 We support you. 00:02:51.409 --> 00:02:51.959 We're here. 00:02:51.959 --> 00:02:57.740 We're, this is a longterm thing, but as you know, since, uh, since the pandemic, 00:02:57.750 --> 00:03:01.390 it's, it just kind of obliterated some of the word camps and they're trying 00:03:01.390 --> 00:03:05.119 to feel like they're trying to get back on their legs and stuff, and so it was 00:03:05.119 --> 00:03:09.410 important to, to be there for this one, um, to help this kind of get restarted. 00:03:09.410 --> 00:03:12.719 Cause they feel like it's, it's just kind of taking some more time to get 00:03:13.110 --> 00:03:14.630 work camps back off the ground and. 00:03:15.700 --> 00:03:16.659 Matt: Recently, James drew. 00:03:16.659 --> 00:03:19.820 Oh, there, there was a recent, um, I wasn't a study, but 00:03:19.820 --> 00:03:21.109 it was a write up on make. 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:26.109 wordpress that, uh, new WordCamp goers are on the decline. 00:03:26.519 --> 00:03:29.950 Uh, James drew wrote up recently something to the effect of like, Hey, 00:03:29.950 --> 00:03:31.489 we need to hit a younger audience. 00:03:31.489 --> 00:03:32.489 And that can mean many things. 00:03:32.489 --> 00:03:36.560 Like that can mean real young, or that could mean 20 to 29, right? 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.799 Because that's a demographic I don't see much of, uh, in, in 00:03:39.799 --> 00:03:41.299 traditional WordPress community. 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:44.019 But what was your, uh, Take away from Canada. 00:03:44.050 --> 00:03:46.140 Did it look like new people? 00:03:46.140 --> 00:03:47.070 Young people? 00:03:47.079 --> 00:03:48.149 What did it feel like? 00:03:48.149 --> 00:03:49.130 What did the vibe feel like? 00:03:49.605 --> 00:03:50.605 Cory: That's a great question. 00:03:50.654 --> 00:03:56.714 Um, I Been have been around long enough where i've got friends at most of these 00:03:56.760 --> 00:03:57.829 Matt: You're like i'm still young. 00:03:57.829 --> 00:03:58.509 I was there 00:03:59.440 --> 00:04:00.480 Cory: I'm definitely not young. 00:04:00.480 --> 00:04:05.099 I showed a picture, by the way, WordCamp, uh, Chicago, I found 2010 in my talk. 00:04:05.570 --> 00:04:07.670 And I was like, I'm not this young anymore. 00:04:07.670 --> 00:04:12.379 I was, I don't know, 33 or some four and I'm like now 48. 00:04:12.399 --> 00:04:17.079 So I feel like the old, you know, the elder walking in, but, um, you 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:22.310 know, a lot of, uh, faces that I know for sure, but then a mix of people 00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:26.900 still doing cool stuff with WordPress that showed up and just, just takes 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:28.630 time and effort for people to. 00:04:28.994 --> 00:04:32.614 You know, block off from their workday and met a lot of WordPress agency 00:04:32.614 --> 00:04:37.815 owners across Canada, and it's, uh, it's, it's exciting to see that there's 00:04:37.815 --> 00:04:39.525 still the fires are still burning. 00:04:39.744 --> 00:04:41.295 You know, it's about everything that's happened. 00:04:41.679 --> 00:04:45.930 Matt: Yeah There's a I was trying to explain this to somebody the other 00:04:45.930 --> 00:04:53.479 day that word camps Uh, you know, we can debate, uh, topics being presented 00:04:53.479 --> 00:04:56.719 at WordCamps, like, should I go to a WordCamp, yes or no, a lot of people just 00:04:56.719 --> 00:05:00.070 like, look at the, look at the agenda, and like, you know, I don't want any of 00:05:00.070 --> 00:05:03.129 this development stuff, maybe I want more, you know, business stuff, or maybe I want 00:05:03.129 --> 00:05:06.670 more marketing stuff, or maybe I just want, I, I just want to know how to use 00:05:06.670 --> 00:05:09.310 WordPress, like, you, you guys are talking about building blocks in JavaScript, 00:05:09.310 --> 00:05:12.680 like, that's not for me, I, I just want to know how to use this platform. 00:05:13.305 --> 00:05:17.265 I think one of the great things is, is there, there are days, uh, 00:05:17.275 --> 00:05:19.775 I forget, I don't know if they call them training days, I forget what the 00:05:19.775 --> 00:05:22.555 name of it is, it's like the first day, it's not the contributor day. 00:05:22.915 --> 00:05:27.175 Well, the contributor day is there, but don't most WordCamps also have a day where 00:05:27.175 --> 00:05:29.534 you can just show up and be like, help me, 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:31.040 Cory: Help with your website. 00:05:31.114 --> 00:05:32.055 Matt: help me with this thing. 00:05:32.780 --> 00:05:34.400 Cory: I haven't seen that recently. 00:05:34.400 --> 00:05:36.090 I think it's, there's probably still there. 00:05:36.090 --> 00:05:39.200 It's not say it isn't, but I remember what you're talking about. 00:05:39.650 --> 00:05:41.080 Hey, you need WordPress help. 00:05:41.110 --> 00:05:45.419 This is like an all day genius bar kind of thing and or happiness bar. 00:05:45.710 --> 00:05:47.640 And they had that there too. 00:05:47.649 --> 00:05:49.880 And I saw people there, which is great. 00:05:49.890 --> 00:05:52.330 Cause you know, the hard thing was working. 00:05:52.330 --> 00:05:55.640 I was trying to hit all these avatars, all the different use cases. 00:05:55.670 --> 00:05:58.930 And I think that's, You know, what you might be alluding to is just, 00:05:58.940 --> 00:06:01.750 it's tough for like, you know, an agency owner, they're out there 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:05.650 trying to sell client work, deliver client work, and then to come. 00:06:05.989 --> 00:06:11.290 And it feels probably more networking across the times 00:06:11.290 --> 00:06:13.240 I've been around where I get it. 00:06:13.250 --> 00:06:14.549 They're very passionate about WordPress. 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.920 They kind of come to network with their colleagues, but 00:06:17.260 --> 00:06:18.520 for something just for them. 00:06:18.520 --> 00:06:23.609 In fact, one of the people that works for Automatic And as a full time contributor 00:06:23.650 --> 00:06:26.640 to the community project, you know, I'm slipping our name, I'm still in travel 00:06:26.640 --> 00:06:32.430 fog, but very passionate about, and it was mentioned like at WordPress agency summit. 00:06:32.440 --> 00:06:33.659 And I was like, Hey, we're all in. 00:06:33.659 --> 00:06:37.899 I think there's a lot of build for that, but a focus thing to just help 00:06:37.900 --> 00:06:41.239 those like you have ran an agency in the past, you know what you're doing 00:06:41.550 --> 00:06:43.349 and talk about those key issues. 00:06:43.359 --> 00:06:44.540 So I hope that happens. 00:06:44.765 --> 00:06:45.065 Matt: yeah. 00:06:45.604 --> 00:06:46.395 There's, um. 00:06:46.854 --> 00:06:49.665 Speaking about being the old people in the room, I don't know what it is. 00:06:49.665 --> 00:06:53.255 It's, I guess it's a human thing where like, we've seen it before. 00:06:53.255 --> 00:06:59.995 Like we've seen the press nomics, the prestige conf, um, post status. 00:06:59.995 --> 00:07:04.495 You, when you were partnered with Brian, uh, did a onsite call again, a lot of this 00:07:04.495 --> 00:07:09.955 stuff is pre COVID, which is obviously a huge speed bump in how we were all getting 00:07:09.955 --> 00:07:12.275 together, but we've seen these events. 00:07:12.654 --> 00:07:16.035 Uh, what was the one loop comp was the one that Ryan, I think Sullivan did. 00:07:16.784 --> 00:07:18.854 Like we've seen all this before and we're like, Oh yeah, like 00:07:19.185 --> 00:07:20.555 we have those, we've had those. 00:07:20.565 --> 00:07:24.974 So it's almost like we forget that these new people coming in are like, 00:07:24.974 --> 00:07:27.154 no, what we want, we want more content. 00:07:27.165 --> 00:07:28.545 We want different content. 00:07:28.675 --> 00:07:31.385 You know, we want that business where we want hardcore development. 00:07:31.844 --> 00:07:38.369 Um, and, and I I'm hoping that the foundation and the word camp Uh, 00:07:38.369 --> 00:07:42.979 teams are starting to think in that and I hope it's more open because I 00:07:42.979 --> 00:07:47.190 think even Matt's recent, um, summer, I think he called it like the summer 00:07:47.190 --> 00:07:51.129 address or like the summer update of, of WordPress, you know, he mentioned 00:07:51.430 --> 00:07:53.669 about themes, like themes and wordpress. 00:07:53.669 --> 00:07:56.319 org, uh, Hey, we, we should be a little bit more loose. 00:07:56.320 --> 00:07:57.099 We should be a little bit. 00:07:57.300 --> 00:08:00.690 you know, more lenient on like the strict, here's a theme 00:08:00.690 --> 00:08:01.630 and here's what it should do. 00:08:01.640 --> 00:08:04.250 Like I hope that kind of spreads into, into the word camps because 00:08:04.260 --> 00:08:08.509 I don't see any other way to really facilitate these different tracks. 00:08:08.530 --> 00:08:11.999 And, and I know the work is in, in motion, but with most things open source and 00:08:11.999 --> 00:08:15.230 WordPress, it's going to take some time, but I really hope, uh, you know, that 00:08:15.230 --> 00:08:17.920 this stuff really, you know, kicks in because I think a lot of people want it. 00:08:18.744 --> 00:08:22.245 Cory: I totally agree back to your original thought on this, about 00:08:22.245 --> 00:08:24.875 like new, how to bring in new users. 00:08:25.114 --> 00:08:29.265 Uh, I'm going to probably mispronounce his name, but I got to meet Hamanti 00:08:29.545 --> 00:08:35.625 who runs and started WordCamp Nepal and he lives in Canada now, but he, 00:08:35.635 --> 00:08:38.885 his whole talk was about how he did that and it was interesting note. 00:08:38.895 --> 00:08:43.285 So when they, he's obviously passionate about WordPress, he's a developer and. 00:08:43.510 --> 00:08:46.950 He was like, how do we build the momentum for WordCamp Nepal and this? 00:08:47.190 --> 00:08:51.560 So they went to the colleges and they started training people in WordPress 00:08:51.560 --> 00:08:53.455 and you're like That's incredible. 00:08:53.715 --> 00:08:54.475 That's what we need. 00:08:55.275 --> 00:08:59.725 Get to, like you said, the new, the new people to WordPress, perhaps the 00:08:59.725 --> 00:09:03.934 younger generation, help them see, like, look at this awesome platform 00:09:04.265 --> 00:09:06.174 and ecosystem and get them in. 00:09:06.175 --> 00:09:07.554 We need those types of things. 00:09:07.554 --> 00:09:11.275 I think coming back into the ecosystem and his was a great example. 00:09:11.275 --> 00:09:12.299 He showed pictures of the. 00:09:12.500 --> 00:09:13.970 The word camp and all the people. 00:09:13.970 --> 00:09:18.910 And it was a lot of young people that, um, kind of getting into tech 00:09:18.920 --> 00:09:20.870 and then doing this particularly. 00:09:21.249 --> 00:09:23.760 And I think we need more of that, but it was a great example of 00:09:23.760 --> 00:09:27.119 what we probably need to start doing, I think, as a ecosystem. 00:09:27.505 --> 00:09:30.145 Matt: I haven't been following the story closely. 00:09:30.145 --> 00:09:34.195 If anyone else has and, and, and has some details and, and really it's, I 00:09:34.195 --> 00:09:38.605 should just ask because, uh, you know, I, I know a lot of them, but, um, I 00:09:38.605 --> 00:09:45.805 think there's a, a new, as an example, there's a, uh, uh, word camp, uh, the 00:09:45.805 --> 00:09:48.625 meetup in, in the uk, WordPress Meetup uk. 00:09:48.625 --> 00:09:52.915 But I think there's like the official one, an unofficial one that's happening. 00:09:53.755 --> 00:09:58.575 And to me, what, and again, I've just loosely heard about this stuff. 00:09:58.625 --> 00:10:02.665 Um, I, I should really dig into it, but when I hear that, I understand as 00:10:02.675 --> 00:10:06.344 somebody who ran a WordPress meetup locally to me and, you know, The 00:10:06.344 --> 00:10:09.775 corner of nowhere you've been here before, Corey, we're not in a big area. 00:10:10.224 --> 00:10:13.885 Um, I can understand like the bureaucracy, the red tape, 00:10:13.885 --> 00:10:14.815 like, Oh, you got to do this. 00:10:14.815 --> 00:10:17.575 And it's just like, Hey, I'm just trying to get people together. 00:10:17.990 --> 00:10:21.340 To talk about WordPress, like, do I have to do all this stuff? 00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:25.240 Or will you just let me get five or six people in a coffee shop and I can 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:29.170 use meetup so, and I can, when I hear that, when I see like, Hey, there's an 00:10:29.170 --> 00:10:33.849 official and an unofficial in, in the UK, which is obviously a big map, uh, 00:10:33.880 --> 00:10:38.100 to cover, uh, I can understand like, look, there's gotta be some loose. 00:10:38.680 --> 00:10:40.360 Agreements here on how this works. 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.509 Like, what are we getting for the official WordPress meetups? 00:10:43.510 --> 00:10:45.750 And what do we, what are we missing on the other side? 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:48.520 So if we don't do the official channel, like what, what are we missing? 00:10:48.560 --> 00:10:49.470 Is it topics? 00:10:49.490 --> 00:10:50.569 Is it funding? 00:10:50.570 --> 00:10:51.670 I don't even think they do that anymore. 00:10:51.670 --> 00:10:55.479 They used to pay for like pizza, um, the meetup page and it gets inside 00:10:55.479 --> 00:10:58.090 of WordPress, but do we have to jump through all these hoops to get that? 00:10:58.090 --> 00:11:01.110 Or just let us, let us meet up and connect with WordPress. 00:11:01.110 --> 00:11:02.330 Like that's the best part about it. 00:11:04.155 --> 00:11:09.465 Cory: people with that spark, a passion that want to just get community built 00:11:09.585 --> 00:11:13.294 locally and started, how do we just get out of the way a little bit, but give 00:11:13.295 --> 00:11:14.925 you enough resources to get that going? 00:11:14.925 --> 00:11:19.385 Because, you know, Katie Richards that my colleague at A2 and I have talked, 00:11:19.385 --> 00:11:20.705 she's done a ton of community work. 00:11:21.165 --> 00:11:23.685 We've had meetups? 00:11:23.715 --> 00:11:26.165 Because all of this stuff started from. 00:11:26.515 --> 00:11:31.005 Like you doing it in your local community, building that enthusiasm, energy for 00:11:31.005 --> 00:11:33.915 what it's doing and connecting into something bigger that built into these. 00:11:33.945 --> 00:11:36.325 And they're a huge part of the marketing. 00:11:36.335 --> 00:11:40.374 They're a huge part of the community support where we're all remote. 00:11:40.374 --> 00:11:45.505 So when we get to actually like rub elbows and talk shop, like we did at WordCamp 00:11:45.535 --> 00:11:47.315 Canada, it's, it's a, such a good. 00:11:47.645 --> 00:11:52.575 Time to gel that like, okay, there's other people just as passionate as me out 00:11:52.575 --> 00:11:57.674 there, but I think You've grounded it back into it needs to start very very local 00:11:57.715 --> 00:11:59.855 and how do we how do we resource that? 00:12:00.020 --> 00:12:00.310 Matt: Yeah. 00:12:00.629 --> 00:12:00.909 Yeah. 00:12:01.580 --> 00:12:03.694 Um, I'm taking a guess. 00:12:04.204 --> 00:12:04.805 I'm forgetting. 00:12:05.665 --> 00:12:10.785 I've got great notes today, as you can tell, but I think your talk title was, 00:12:10.804 --> 00:12:13.781 everything will be okay, uh, was Mm 00:12:13.905 --> 00:12:19.370 Cory: My talk was actually about burnout and recovery And I said recovering, um, 00:12:19.510 --> 00:12:24.820 from a couple of years ago, and this is something we've shared before, but really 00:12:25.010 --> 00:12:28.870 getting a little distance from that and sharing how I was off for six months of 00:12:28.870 --> 00:12:31.260 work did not work first time in my career. 00:12:31.260 --> 00:12:36.870 I'd been really like, did not feel I could work, did not want to go to work. 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:44.145 Um, and so sharing the, before the buildup to that, How that six months was kind of 00:12:44.145 --> 00:12:51.225 crazy, um, and resetting for me now, and then some takeaways for how to do work 00:12:51.315 --> 00:12:55.065 better for who I am now, what I can do. 00:12:55.345 --> 00:12:57.395 Um, like I was mentioning, I'm older now. 00:12:58.444 --> 00:13:00.195 I can't just grind, grind, grind. 00:13:00.465 --> 00:13:02.145 Uh, I've got to take care of my body. 00:13:02.285 --> 00:13:05.995 Got to maybe slow things down a little bit, uh, which is tough. 00:13:06.495 --> 00:13:07.125 So. 00:13:07.665 --> 00:13:13.005 And I feel like that's part of, you know, even if we didn't have pandemic, I think 00:13:13.025 --> 00:13:17.684 us that do remote work, you and I, and most WordPress is we're kind of in our 00:13:17.704 --> 00:13:19.904 little home offices doing cool stuff. 00:13:19.904 --> 00:13:22.945 And maybe we're meeting on zoom, but we're not getting as much of that. 00:13:23.525 --> 00:13:24.755 social interaction. 00:13:25.525 --> 00:13:26.975 And, uh, you know how it is. 00:13:27.085 --> 00:13:29.365 I think you and I personally talked about these things. 00:13:29.365 --> 00:13:30.815 Just like that. 00:13:30.835 --> 00:13:33.975 Living the entrepreneurial life is a plus 100 to all that. 00:13:33.985 --> 00:13:36.445 Cause it's, you know, you're grinding, you're doing these 00:13:36.445 --> 00:13:38.005 things just like you do with this. 00:13:38.065 --> 00:13:39.394 You've got a day job. 00:13:39.464 --> 00:13:41.634 You do these other things cause you're passionate about it. 00:13:42.185 --> 00:13:44.295 But over time, how that kind of builds up and you're like, I just 00:13:44.295 --> 00:13:45.735 don't want to be in there Hmm. 00:13:45.885 --> 00:13:46.215 Matt: Yeah. 00:13:46.854 --> 00:13:47.174 Yeah. 00:13:47.665 --> 00:13:54.020 There's Yeah, I mean, multiple times, uh, of, of burnout, and I guess that 00:13:54.020 --> 00:13:57.070 could just mean different, it could, it's different severities, at least this is 00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:00.159 my opinion, I'm no, no specialist, and maybe you have some insight into this, 00:14:00.160 --> 00:14:04.739 but there's, there's different levels of it, and, but I can feel it when I'm just 00:14:04.739 --> 00:14:11.395 like, I, I don't want to do the Like I can feel myself like whatever it is, right? 00:14:11.395 --> 00:14:14.045 It could be piece of content that I've been working on 00:14:14.045 --> 00:14:16.115 for years, uh, the podcast. 00:14:16.145 --> 00:14:19.255 And like, I can feel it because I'm like, I avoid it. 00:14:19.504 --> 00:14:19.985 I avoid it. 00:14:20.015 --> 00:14:21.385 I'm not even telling myself. 00:14:21.805 --> 00:14:22.435 Don't do it. 00:14:22.745 --> 00:14:26.885 I'm avoiding it at all costs and then I like a week goes by and I and 00:14:26.885 --> 00:14:28.515 I start to realize Wait a minute. 00:14:28.525 --> 00:14:33.325 You've been avoiding this thing It's because it's not getting done and you're 00:14:33.414 --> 00:14:38.035 you're not happy about it not getting done And you're also like mad that you 00:14:38.035 --> 00:14:42.285 still wanted that you're fighting your own self to do it And then you that's 00:14:42.295 --> 00:14:43.885 when I start to realize oh my god. 00:14:43.895 --> 00:14:48.000 I need to either shift gears and or reevaluate. 00:14:48.010 --> 00:14:51.940 Sometimes it's just reevaluating the priorities of it and starting with like 00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:56.740 something super simple to just like, get back into the rhythm of things. 00:14:57.170 --> 00:15:01.510 Um, but then there's just major shifts where I can feel this thing on repeat. 00:15:01.620 --> 00:15:02.790 Don't want to do it anymore. 00:15:02.949 --> 00:15:03.929 Not happy with it. 00:15:04.010 --> 00:15:07.610 I got to find something else and really change that trajectory of 00:15:07.610 --> 00:15:09.210 the thing that's burning me out. 00:15:09.640 --> 00:15:13.525 Um, do you have like an indicator that you, That you recognize, that 00:15:13.525 --> 00:15:16.365 you lean into when you're like, Oh God, I can feel it coming and 00:15:16.365 --> 00:15:18.455 I need to adjust and strategize. 00:15:19.275 --> 00:15:21.055 Cory: You just shared my talk basically. 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:21.750 Well done. 00:15:21.800 --> 00:15:23.370 I mean, you're already recognizing it. 00:15:23.660 --> 00:15:29.170 Um, so the world health organization is where I came, kind of look at when 00:15:29.170 --> 00:15:31.040 I was going through it and all that. 00:15:31.040 --> 00:15:35.085 Cause I was like, okay, I'm obviously burned out, but I've, I've crashed. 00:15:35.215 --> 00:15:37.285 It's not even the indicators I've crashed. 00:15:37.695 --> 00:15:42.895 And looking back, the three they use is, uh, energy depletion or exhaustion, 00:15:43.595 --> 00:15:48.804 feelings of negatism, uh, or cynicism, and the third is professional efficacy. 00:15:49.085 --> 00:15:52.784 And how I translate that is, and you just share, you shared 00:15:52.784 --> 00:15:55.764 that, like you're, you're, you're consciously aware of those things. 00:15:55.774 --> 00:15:57.594 Me, I was like, go, go, go. 00:15:58.004 --> 00:15:59.524 But it was no progress. 00:16:00.115 --> 00:16:05.375 Feelings of like things aren't, I'm not, what I'm doing isn't working. 00:16:05.505 --> 00:16:08.005 Now you and I raise our hands, entrepreneurship. 00:16:08.005 --> 00:16:09.205 You can just say right there, boom. 00:16:09.685 --> 00:16:14.724 Um, but like in, in any kind of work is I'm not getting things done. 00:16:14.725 --> 00:16:15.804 I don't feel any progress. 00:16:16.315 --> 00:16:18.175 Second one that hit me was bad attitude. 00:16:18.380 --> 00:16:22.079 And, you know, you're oftentimes the person I can vent to professionally 00:16:22.079 --> 00:16:25.440 about some of these, and you have, thank, thank you, by the way, is 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:30.000 like, when it's not working, I start to get a bad attitude about it. 00:16:30.020 --> 00:16:34.800 Like, it's just, and that's where that negativity, cynicism, for me, it was, 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:42.349 uh, frustration led to anger, led to, um, resentment, led to bitterness. 00:16:42.610 --> 00:16:42.930 And. 00:16:43.400 --> 00:16:46.410 I had gotten there where nothing's working. 00:16:46.470 --> 00:16:47.120 I'm bitter. 00:16:47.510 --> 00:16:51.849 And, you know, in retrospect, it's always easier, but you know, looking 00:16:51.849 --> 00:16:56.710 how it kind of domino down when frustration isn't handled properly. 00:16:56.710 --> 00:16:59.679 How did it go to anger for myself in reflection? 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:04.940 The last I'll say this was the inciting event for me, Matt, because those two. 00:17:05.385 --> 00:17:09.405 At any point, if I'd been opening about it, we, you and I had been talking, 00:17:09.405 --> 00:17:13.545 I've been like, you probably saw it, but really bad attitude, right? 00:17:13.835 --> 00:17:14.795 Not making progress. 00:17:15.055 --> 00:17:16.225 But the third was key. 00:17:16.455 --> 00:17:18.724 I think this is the one that tripped everything just kind of 00:17:18.724 --> 00:17:23.605 fell apart was I broke my foot, uh, the physical part of it. 00:17:24.114 --> 00:17:27.375 And I was mentally and emotionally exhausted from the other two, 00:17:27.375 --> 00:17:31.225 but the third was the one that everything came crashing down. 00:17:31.645 --> 00:17:35.235 I broke my foot racing barefoot, my kids in the backyard. 00:17:35.385 --> 00:17:39.875 And I just happened to, it's, uh, called the seismoid on your big toe, 00:17:40.115 --> 00:17:42.255 happened to hit a rock right perfectly. 00:17:42.285 --> 00:17:44.095 And there's supposed to be, I guess, two bones that kind of 00:17:44.095 --> 00:17:45.255 fuse together when you're a kid. 00:17:45.255 --> 00:17:48.765 And it just little bitty fracture in that foot. 00:17:48.794 --> 00:17:50.434 I haven't, there's nothing I could do about it. 00:17:50.435 --> 00:17:51.794 There's no surgery. 00:17:51.834 --> 00:17:53.085 It'll just make it worse. 00:17:53.435 --> 00:17:57.575 So I limped around for four or five months on a post op boot. 00:17:57.625 --> 00:18:00.345 Cause that was the only thing I could do that wouldn't hurt. 00:18:00.550 --> 00:18:05.180 But what they did physically to me, it's just kind of tilt my body and 00:18:05.399 --> 00:18:09.220 almost three years later, I've just now starting to feel better because that 00:18:09.220 --> 00:18:14.870 little break kind of cascaded through my body, limping around my hips route, you 00:18:14.870 --> 00:18:19.869 know, my back, um, those of us that sit in the chair and do computer work all 00:18:19.870 --> 00:18:21.723 day, kind of resonate with it, I'm sure. 00:18:21.723 --> 00:18:24.640 But that was the point I was like, wait a minute, body. 00:18:25.070 --> 00:18:28.010 You, you've been just the go, you can just go, go, go. 00:18:28.280 --> 00:18:31.170 And I was pushing it to it and just broke. 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.479 So I put the picture up of, you know, your car dashboard and all the lights, 00:18:35.500 --> 00:18:40.229 you know, the speed is zero, everything's off and it's just lights going broken. 00:18:40.590 --> 00:18:41.479 That's how I felt. 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:46.130 But if that event didn't happen, I probably would've kept trying, you know, 00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:48.840 to go, but that's what really, okay. 00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:51.450 Now, Corey, you know, I tried to come back to my. 00:18:52.105 --> 00:18:52.515 Work. 00:18:52.515 --> 00:18:54.735 I think you and I, I was probably talking to you about all this 00:18:54.754 --> 00:18:55.785 during this time too, Matt. 00:18:56.245 --> 00:19:02.804 Um, I tried to go back after winter break over the, in 2021 and I couldn't get 00:19:02.805 --> 00:19:04.965 near a computer without feeling sick. 00:19:05.015 --> 00:19:07.895 There's nothing wrong with my, like nothing was going on in my stomach or 00:19:07.895 --> 00:19:09.284 anything, but my stomach would hurt. 00:19:09.625 --> 00:19:11.495 My inner energy would just vanish. 00:19:11.495 --> 00:19:16.865 It was like, and I'd have to go lay down and I was like, hold on a minute. 00:19:17.055 --> 00:19:17.955 What is this? 00:19:17.965 --> 00:19:19.295 Cause I prided myself on. 00:19:19.815 --> 00:19:21.315 Work and join work. 00:19:22.520 --> 00:19:27.350 Matt: yeah, there's in the business specifically that maybe you or I, or I, 00:19:27.650 --> 00:19:32.310 you and I are in, um, but as I'm talking out loud, I'm also thinking about like 00:19:32.310 --> 00:19:36.270 when I was running the agency, like I felt it the same, I felt like the same 00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:40.020 things happen, but I think there's, um, 00:19:42.025 --> 00:19:44.745 Maybe you have some better insight into this, but there's probably some 00:19:44.745 --> 00:19:48.215 direct correlation to like how much you care about the work that you're 00:19:48.215 --> 00:19:50.484 doing, to how much this impacts you. 00:19:50.695 --> 00:19:54.974 Like, if I didn't care, right, about content that I was putting out or 00:19:54.974 --> 00:19:59.695 clients I was serving, and maybe that's even too harsh, I think, There's a, 00:20:00.515 --> 00:20:04.425 you know, if you were doing, uh, even to keep it in the website side of, of 00:20:04.425 --> 00:20:08.375 things, like if you just did a thousand dollar websites, that's what you did. 00:20:08.404 --> 00:20:09.535 It's 1000 bucks. 00:20:09.715 --> 00:20:10.535 This is what it is. 00:20:10.555 --> 00:20:11.515 I do it on repeat. 00:20:11.545 --> 00:20:12.525 I build the system. 00:20:12.574 --> 00:20:15.145 I launch, I go, I get customers, I bring them in. 00:20:15.165 --> 00:20:15.834 I do ads. 00:20:15.855 --> 00:20:17.575 I bring them in launch repeat. 00:20:17.895 --> 00:20:18.585 There's a. 00:20:19.375 --> 00:20:22.925 Certain certain level of like almost like manufacturing there where maybe 00:20:22.925 --> 00:20:25.925 you feel like a little bit disconnected from the business and you can shut 00:20:25.925 --> 00:20:29.435 the laptop off and go because you're not thinking creatively like am I 00:20:29.435 --> 00:20:31.065 making an impact on these people? 00:20:31.065 --> 00:20:32.714 Like, am I really helping their businesses? 00:20:32.715 --> 00:20:35.174 And maybe you are, but especially in this content business. 00:20:35.455 --> 00:20:39.185 Or in community business, like you've been in with post status, like it's so 00:20:39.185 --> 00:20:45.945 hard to evaluate to just be like, okay, revenue, okay, great revenue, right? 00:20:46.124 --> 00:20:49.474 But these are humans that you're trying to like corral and do 00:20:49.515 --> 00:20:54.094 things with and leave an impact and man, the emotional rollercoaster. 00:20:55.125 --> 00:20:55.935 Off the charts. 00:20:56.185 --> 00:20:57.775 And you know, I see this all the time. 00:20:57.775 --> 00:21:01.785 People are like best WordPress newsletter and it's not yours. 00:21:01.985 --> 00:21:02.925 And you're like, what the fuck? 00:21:03.435 --> 00:21:06.075 Like, ha, I've been doing this man for years. 00:21:06.175 --> 00:21:07.115 And you're my friend. 00:21:08.024 --> 00:21:10.375 How are you saying this out loud? 00:21:10.695 --> 00:21:12.734 Like I'm doing this thing forever. 00:21:12.734 --> 00:21:15.755 And you don't think, but you know, this is all, uh, you know, 00:21:15.765 --> 00:21:17.565 this is all, uh, perspective. 00:21:17.565 --> 00:21:20.940 Like people, you know, might not look at you as your newsletter, but you get 00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:27.109 so attached to this stuff that it has like this visceral, um, impact on you. 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:29.160 Positive, negative, you know, or neutral. 00:21:29.389 --> 00:21:30.180 It's a tough space. 00:21:30.915 --> 00:21:33.855 Cory: So you said the word attached and you just rang the bell for me 00:21:33.855 --> 00:21:41.324 right there is care so much, but when it went into attachment of it and you 00:21:41.325 --> 00:21:45.545 could probably resonate this, um, one thing I shared and really, you know, in 00:21:45.545 --> 00:21:50.015 reflection occurred to me is that, you know, in 2008, when I started iThemes, 00:21:50.164 --> 00:21:55.645 I got to put on this fancy, I put like a You know, I had AI create this like 00:21:55.985 --> 00:21:57.754 astronauts helmet that was glowing. 00:21:57.754 --> 00:22:01.765 It's like entrepreneur, tech entrepreneur, that those two. 00:22:02.455 --> 00:22:04.375 And I fell in love with it. 00:22:04.425 --> 00:22:07.535 I loved that it was an identity that resonated with me. 00:22:07.765 --> 00:22:11.949 But the problem for me was I cared so much and a lot of things factor into this. 00:22:12.380 --> 00:22:14.330 But I didn't, wasn't willing to take that helmet off. 00:22:14.360 --> 00:22:19.470 Like I didn't, I didn't want to, I couldn't fathom not being this either. 00:22:19.820 --> 00:22:20.950 So cared so much. 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.750 You try to help people impact purpose. 00:22:22.750 --> 00:22:24.360 Like you're talking about a hundred percent. 00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:25.100 That's the entrepreneurs. 00:22:25.100 --> 00:22:27.290 We are purpose and profit, right? 00:22:27.419 --> 00:22:27.789 Two. 00:22:28.310 --> 00:22:30.070 They're, they're both, they have to go together. 00:22:30.530 --> 00:22:36.930 But, uh, for me that care and then survival, okay, what am I going to do? 00:22:37.020 --> 00:22:39.950 I want to make a living that profit part of the purpose. 00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:43.190 I want to be paid to do this work for other people. 00:22:43.660 --> 00:22:47.899 And, um, all of that fed into feelings of intent where I was like, I couldn't 00:22:47.899 --> 00:22:52.180 fathom not being off work for six or being off work for six months, or. 00:22:53.770 --> 00:22:55.070 Not being an entrepreneur. 00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:59.480 And so I forgot in that whole thing, it sounds obvious now, but I've 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.550 forgotten all that thing through all of these different things you've 00:23:02.600 --> 00:23:04.610 kind of shared that I say, you did. 00:23:04.610 --> 00:23:07.309 Oh, it was me. 00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:11.629 You know, I was the space suit, the entrepreneurial tech entrepreneur. 00:23:12.560 --> 00:23:15.640 And didn't, you know, finally through a lot of just growing older and 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:20.559 evolving, growing as a person, I hope, um, realized like that was an old worn 00:23:20.560 --> 00:23:25.360 out costume for me and it was okay to maybe go, maybe there's something else. 00:23:25.670 --> 00:23:29.140 And that's what led me to even put my resume together and even being a 00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:32.520 two, my friends over there and see if there was something, because. 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:38.010 Uh, I was willing to finally take that off and go, okay, I'm very proud of what 00:23:38.010 --> 00:23:40.060 I've done during that period of time. 00:23:40.310 --> 00:23:44.509 Maybe there's a point when I become an entrepreneur somewhere way, 00:23:44.509 --> 00:23:46.160 way, way, way, way down the road. 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:50.889 I'm not saying never to that, but like for now I'm okay taking it off. 00:23:51.489 --> 00:23:52.680 And that was a lot of work. 00:23:52.910 --> 00:23:55.030 Mental physical emotional to get there. 00:23:55.225 --> 00:24:01.465 Matt: Yeah, there's something, uh, what I've been, I call it practicing, 00:24:01.505 --> 00:24:06.835 but it's just kind of how, how I've, I've learned to, to cope with it 00:24:06.855 --> 00:24:12.354 is just literally trying to detach from, uh, from the work and just say 00:24:12.355 --> 00:24:14.869 like, like, I don't save anything. 00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:16.330 I save nothing. 00:24:16.830 --> 00:24:20.190 Videos, mp3s, blog posts. 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:21.910 If it's up there, it's there. 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:23.330 But I have no backups. 00:24:23.390 --> 00:24:24.100 There's no backups. 00:24:24.250 --> 00:24:25.260 I don't want the backups. 00:24:25.469 --> 00:24:26.160 I don't need it. 00:24:26.390 --> 00:24:30.890 I don't need a thousand hard drives filled with the last decade worth 00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:35.320 of work that I've done because it is not me and I don't want to carry 00:24:35.320 --> 00:24:37.670 it forward because I want to change. 00:24:37.670 --> 00:24:39.890 Like, I want this to end. 00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:41.270 Cory: Mm 00:24:41.360 --> 00:24:41.640 Matt: Right? 00:24:42.290 --> 00:24:44.734 This is something I've been, like, I've been thinking about this. 00:24:45.585 --> 00:24:46.575 This might get a little morbid. 00:24:46.585 --> 00:24:51.755 We try not to go too deep into this, but I don't want to die suddenly. 00:24:52.545 --> 00:24:54.995 And you were like, Oh, that WordPress guy died. 00:24:55.840 --> 00:24:56.270 Cory: hmm. 00:24:56.684 --> 00:25:00.435 Matt: I don't, I want it to, I want to finalize this, hopefully. 00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:06.320 Move on to something else right move on to bigger and better things or just different 00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:10.239 things like not even bigger and better like I'm right now I'm doing another 00:25:10.239 --> 00:25:12.380 side project called our beloved medium. 00:25:12.550 --> 00:25:16.600 I'm an executive producer for an audio documentary with a fictional twist on it 00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:21.600 Celebrating a lot of radios most impactful moments in history, and it's a six part 00:25:21.600 --> 00:25:25.465 audio documentary doing it with a producer friend of mine Never done it before. 00:25:25.585 --> 00:25:28.325 I know nothing about being an executive producer. 00:25:28.735 --> 00:25:32.064 I'm fundraising right now and doing some marketing for it But I'm not 00:25:32.064 --> 00:25:35.585 the you know, I'm not speaking into a microphone for it for the first time. 00:25:35.604 --> 00:25:37.875 I'm not writing a script I'm not researching. 00:25:37.875 --> 00:25:41.644 I'm not creating anything and I'm like, this is the next thing 00:25:42.075 --> 00:25:43.864 whether it's Successful or not. 00:25:44.104 --> 00:25:47.495 Like this is just like the next thing that I need to you know, keep 00:25:47.505 --> 00:25:50.312 moving forward to Little deep little 00:25:50.320 --> 00:25:51.600 Cory: see I heard a bunch in that. 00:25:52.260 --> 00:25:56.590 No, I'm so glad I part of us even having this and thank you for even 00:25:56.660 --> 00:26:01.139 sharing that And then having the conversation is to destigmatize to 00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:06.860 erase the stigma about these things because if we don't Get these out. 00:26:07.100 --> 00:26:10.520 We're going to bottle it up and hurt silently and suffer. 00:26:10.850 --> 00:26:14.330 And that's my story, you know, um, for sure. 00:26:14.330 --> 00:26:17.839 It's just, I'd rather bottle those up, keep this to myself, try to deal 00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:19.270 with them and then realize I can't. 00:26:19.770 --> 00:26:24.399 But you know, what I heard in that real quick is, you know, a decade of 00:26:24.399 --> 00:26:26.899 doing all this, but there's a passion underneath it, it just happened to 00:26:26.910 --> 00:26:31.470 be focused on WordPress for this last decade, web design work, the internet, 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:35.959 things like that, the passion I've always seen you is you love this. 00:26:36.260 --> 00:26:41.330 Talking, having these conversations vocally with video and, you know, 00:26:41.340 --> 00:26:45.780 having those getting to the heart, really addressing the conversations. 00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:47.060 That's a part of you. 00:26:47.380 --> 00:26:49.790 Now, this is just your friend sharing their perspective. 00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:51.069 I've seen this over and over. 00:26:51.369 --> 00:26:54.760 So for maybe a decade, it's been focused on this topic. 00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:59.390 But could you, you're being willing to change a role and perspective in it. 00:26:59.410 --> 00:27:03.030 But the passion is what's to me is burning underneath that, which is 00:27:03.360 --> 00:27:05.110 your love for this type of work. 00:27:05.500 --> 00:27:08.050 That's what I had to push down and get to for me. 00:27:08.430 --> 00:27:10.270 And I love creative work. 00:27:10.820 --> 00:27:15.130 So when I took off some of the barriers that that helmet, the 00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:19.190 entrepreneurial helmet did and realized like, I could actually, okay. 00:27:19.190 --> 00:27:20.700 If I take one layer off, which is. 00:27:21.189 --> 00:27:23.970 I will work with somebody else for somebody else. 00:27:24.560 --> 00:27:29.330 Um, could I still do the creativity that I love that drives me? 00:27:29.809 --> 00:27:33.909 And I found it with this particular role for this season of time. 00:27:34.090 --> 00:27:37.819 And I'm so thankful for it because when I can just take off some of that, 00:27:37.829 --> 00:27:42.360 maybe it was pride, hubris, whatever it was, um, you know, being in the 00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:43.840 bold entrepreneur kind of thing. 00:27:43.840 --> 00:27:44.080 Okay. 00:27:44.110 --> 00:27:45.000 Take that off for a second. 00:27:45.030 --> 00:27:48.820 I can apply the bold, the innovation to other things. 00:27:49.010 --> 00:27:49.640 And that's what I heard. 00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:50.959 And you're sure that connects with me. 00:27:51.345 --> 00:27:54.345 Is there's still a seed that's not burnt out, right? 00:27:54.585 --> 00:27:58.165 There's this passion, whatever we call it inside that drives, kind 00:27:58.165 --> 00:27:59.875 of drives us, keeps our fire going. 00:28:00.294 --> 00:28:04.585 And when we hit these dead ends, which I have, um, going, okay, maybe there's 00:28:04.585 --> 00:28:09.375 another thing I could apply that same thing to, and where I'm thankful. 00:28:09.385 --> 00:28:10.925 They created this role for me. 00:28:11.105 --> 00:28:13.975 I just said, I marketing, I think is my thing. 00:28:14.605 --> 00:28:15.985 You know, what would that look like? 00:28:15.995 --> 00:28:20.114 And they, you know, Paul, the CEO over there was like, well, this role. 00:28:20.114 --> 00:28:24.135 And I was like, Oh my God, you see me, you value me for this. 00:28:24.575 --> 00:28:26.795 And I want to spend some time in that and not have to worry about these 00:28:26.795 --> 00:28:28.685 other things I did as an entrepreneur. 00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:29.030 Matt: Yeah. 00:28:29.360 --> 00:28:34.900 And it's taking those strengths and, and you're taking the strength, uh, the 00:28:34.900 --> 00:28:37.570 strengths that you have, the skillset that you've built up, and you're 00:28:37.570 --> 00:28:40.830 just running it, you're running a new mission with, with a brand, right? 00:28:40.849 --> 00:28:42.740 That's the way I see it with, with Gravity Forms. 00:28:43.260 --> 00:28:45.740 You obviously love the team at A2. 00:28:45.910 --> 00:28:47.330 You wouldn't do it if you didn't. 00:28:47.740 --> 00:28:50.890 Um, I love Gravity Forms because I've been using it forever. 00:28:51.070 --> 00:28:52.830 And I love the team and I love the mission. 00:28:53.110 --> 00:28:56.300 So I go and I take all of my skill set and I say, this is 00:28:56.300 --> 00:28:57.460 what I'm really good at here. 00:28:57.670 --> 00:29:00.649 I want to connect with other people, make partnerships, give 00:29:00.649 --> 00:29:01.789 you ideas on how to run the team. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.860 Uh, how to, uh, uh, maybe do things with the product features, bells 00:29:05.860 --> 00:29:06.870 and whistles, things like that. 00:29:07.050 --> 00:29:08.910 And of course, a tribute to, to marketing. 00:29:08.950 --> 00:29:13.609 Because I love that message and I, and I love the fact that I can represent 00:29:13.620 --> 00:29:18.590 Gravity Forms and say, it's the best form builder for fill in the blank. 00:29:18.659 --> 00:29:18.899 Right? 00:29:18.899 --> 00:29:20.880 And it's just a mission that I'm attached to. 00:29:21.690 --> 00:29:23.400 And really passionate about, right? 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:24.890 And I think that there's there. 00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:27.140 That's like an inroad to be like, it's okay, man. 00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:31.760 Like you don't need to, you know, this crazy idea of, you know, running 00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:36.330 this entrepreneurial empire because it could still come on, you know, you 00:29:36.330 --> 00:29:38.680 could still do something and you're still associated with post status. 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:41.819 Obviously we're going to talk about that in a second, but even the work that 00:29:41.820 --> 00:29:44.980 you're doing at a two, there's still room there to be like, Hey, you know what? 00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:47.440 Maybe I'll just start spinning up my newsletter and my blog again. 00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:50.170 And I start like, that's my creative outlet. 00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:50.440 Yeah. 00:29:50.885 --> 00:29:53.375 Along with my career and that's totally fine. 00:29:54.100 --> 00:29:55.160 Cory: You just really nailed it. 00:29:55.180 --> 00:29:58.600 When we're talking about care, you care about something, but you also believe in 00:29:58.610 --> 00:30:00.640 it when you believe in care, and that's something you and I have in common. 00:30:00.930 --> 00:30:03.379 Like, we wouldn't have done these things if we didn't really 00:30:03.379 --> 00:30:04.370 believe and care about them. 00:30:05.320 --> 00:30:09.839 Then that focus, where we're aiming that, you hit those endings. 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:10.990 I'm so glad you said that. 00:30:11.020 --> 00:30:15.740 Like, yeah, maybe somebody could say more, but it is a part of life. 00:30:16.040 --> 00:30:19.950 Ending endings is a part of life. 00:30:19.950 --> 00:30:22.620 It's just, you look around, it's a cycle, right? 00:30:23.030 --> 00:30:26.190 And we go, okay, is burnout telling us these things? 00:30:26.190 --> 00:30:32.660 Like for me, Hey, maybe there's something else and better for me, for the world. 00:30:33.150 --> 00:30:35.969 And, but that belief in care, I think is what we're kind of 00:30:35.969 --> 00:30:37.900 talking about that seed below. 00:30:38.280 --> 00:30:38.830 And. 00:30:39.155 --> 00:30:42.265 Could there just be another way to express that in the world? 00:30:42.605 --> 00:30:43.575 Absolutely. 00:30:43.815 --> 00:30:47.805 We've chose the two businesses we're at because we believe in care. 00:30:48.195 --> 00:30:52.814 So we get to apply these talents to them, but that the seed is still there. 00:30:52.815 --> 00:30:57.915 And if it's aimed somewhere else, and that's what I, I had put artificial limits 00:30:57.915 --> 00:31:00.255 on myself by going, I'm an entrepreneur. 00:31:00.575 --> 00:31:01.345 I can only do this. 00:31:01.345 --> 00:31:02.335 I can't work for anybody else. 00:31:02.335 --> 00:31:02.935 I don't want to work. 00:31:03.315 --> 00:31:05.125 And releasing that helped me to go. 00:31:05.495 --> 00:31:10.445 Oh, I could actually do it for somebody else, take some of these things off that 00:31:10.445 --> 00:31:15.245 were like crushing me, focus on these things and I'm getting to do these deeper. 00:31:15.245 --> 00:31:19.374 Like I've done in a very, I would say more informal way in 00:31:19.375 --> 00:31:22.735 my head at least, community and evangelism and all these things. 00:31:23.435 --> 00:31:27.745 Matt: and you built a business And you built and sold the business which is huge. 00:31:28.265 --> 00:31:29.885 All right, there's from the 00:31:30.655 --> 00:31:33.235 Cory: I get to explore that deeper though, this community stuff. 00:31:33.235 --> 00:31:34.895 Like, what if I just do that? 00:31:35.415 --> 00:31:36.375 Oh, I'm in. 00:31:36.715 --> 00:31:36.904 Matt: yeah. 00:31:36.904 --> 00:31:41.524 Yeah 100 there's um From like the business perspective, you know 00:31:41.535 --> 00:31:43.074 when you're evaluating this stuff. 00:31:43.084 --> 00:31:46.835 I think the worst thing this is just my opinion I'd love to hear your thoughts 00:31:46.835 --> 00:31:51.930 on it is when you're stuck in the middle It's, it's very hard to see because the 00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:55.240 middle is actually a safe ground, right? 00:31:55.550 --> 00:31:59.310 And it, and it has those slight like margins where it 00:31:59.310 --> 00:32:00.440 bounces up and down, right? 00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:04.090 Where it can be stressful, but it can also be, you know, nice because work's getting 00:32:04.090 --> 00:32:07.199 done and you're somewhat profitable, but you're not ultra profitable. 00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:08.030 And this is what I saw. 00:32:08.470 --> 00:32:15.440 Um, Well, you know, go back to story history and my family ran car dealerships 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.760 for 45 years in our community, but then ran an agency for a decade with my dad. 00:32:20.099 --> 00:32:22.160 And there's something about like when you're stuck in the middle, 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.659 especially with an agency role. 00:32:25.149 --> 00:32:29.765 Um, It's easy to fall in and slot into that meaning you're not profit You don't 00:32:29.765 --> 00:32:33.745 have enough business coming in with enough profitability to expand and and scale 00:32:33.745 --> 00:32:37.344 the business to get to the next step But you're but at the hard times you're 00:32:37.345 --> 00:32:42.655 not small enough to cut back like costs without literally like getting rid of 00:32:42.674 --> 00:32:46.785 people You're not small enough because the projects that you're trying to take 00:32:46.785 --> 00:32:51.465 in are somewhat pretty heavy, right and you need You need more of them to get to 00:32:51.465 --> 00:32:55.025 the next step, but you also need to be profitable to get to that next step too. 00:32:55.215 --> 00:32:56.835 It's a supremely hard balance. 00:32:56.835 --> 00:33:00.134 And when you're stuck in that middle ground, it can be hard 00:33:00.215 --> 00:33:04.515 to identify it because it's seasonal and it can be years long. 00:33:04.994 --> 00:33:08.115 And you're just like three, four years later, like, why haven't we grown? 00:33:08.624 --> 00:33:11.265 Like we're not out of business, but we haven't grown. 00:33:11.495 --> 00:33:13.885 And the hard times are kind of hard, right? 00:33:13.885 --> 00:33:18.025 Because we can't really shrink it down because we we've built up this overhead. 00:33:18.454 --> 00:33:20.185 Um, It's tough in that business. 00:33:20.185 --> 00:33:23.955 And I don't know if plugins, I guess software can fall in that same category. 00:33:24.325 --> 00:33:27.445 Um, where you kind of just stay in the middle, you don't realize that 00:33:27.445 --> 00:33:29.845 you're not growing, but you don't want to get rid of it kind of thing. 00:33:30.305 --> 00:33:34.265 Uh, but those are things like when I look at helping anybody with whatever 00:33:34.305 --> 00:33:37.384 content creation or business, I'm just like, are you stuck in that middle? 00:33:37.665 --> 00:33:41.055 And can you either maximize like a huge growth spurt? 00:33:41.055 --> 00:33:42.185 Like, can you go up market? 00:33:42.195 --> 00:33:42.975 Are you ready for that? 00:33:43.255 --> 00:33:47.445 Or is there a way to just like cut the fat and just drop down to 00:33:47.840 --> 00:33:49.720 A lower level with less overhead. 00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.540 Doesn't mean you're smaller, but you just have less overhead, and 00:33:52.540 --> 00:33:55.750 you can manage it and have more breathing room at the end of the day. 00:33:56.845 --> 00:33:57.405 Cory: It's funny. 00:33:57.405 --> 00:33:59.895 Cause I think the best medicine is that. 00:34:00.330 --> 00:34:02.900 Is the hardest to take yourself. 00:34:03.450 --> 00:34:07.520 But when I hear that, I go so many times, and this is why I love work. 00:34:07.530 --> 00:34:12.960 I get to help and support entrepreneurs in this role, but not be one. 00:34:13.279 --> 00:34:14.089 So I can help. 00:34:14.090 --> 00:34:19.780 Cause I know I've been there and, but it's so tough because you're in this. 00:34:20.130 --> 00:34:23.910 Um, think about it, you know, as a business owner, your family, your 00:34:23.910 --> 00:34:29.119 identity, your financial, all the things kind of revolve eventually around. 00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:33.325 And The business and so the middle when you said that you're like you're in the 00:34:33.335 --> 00:34:38.894 middle of that Like okay, if we don't make this get this project and take 00:34:38.895 --> 00:34:41.065 this project down And get that revenue. 00:34:41.435 --> 00:34:42.975 It's not just mine. 00:34:42.985 --> 00:34:45.925 It is my own family supported by this work. 00:34:46.155 --> 00:34:48.434 It's also my team and different things. 00:34:48.455 --> 00:34:51.415 And that just collectively adds up over time. 00:34:51.994 --> 00:34:56.485 And so it's so different because you go like someone from the outside could 00:34:56.485 --> 00:35:00.145 go, Oh, you should have separated your identity from your business. 00:35:00.405 --> 00:35:04.705 Very, very easy to say if you haven't lived it very, very easy to say the hard 00:35:04.705 --> 00:35:07.265 medicine is like, well, let's acknowledge. 00:35:07.680 --> 00:35:10.710 If I don't get that project, I've got to figure something out for 00:35:10.710 --> 00:35:12.750 my family and my team financially. 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.640 If, I mean, if, if I don't keep going, then I'm not surviving. 00:35:16.670 --> 00:35:21.580 And it's constant survival mode in many times, seasons of life of an entrepreneur. 00:35:22.070 --> 00:35:25.529 Um, and it just all cumulatively adds up. 00:35:25.529 --> 00:35:28.079 So most of us stumble into this. 00:35:28.765 --> 00:35:31.265 Not many of us go, I'm going to go do that. 00:35:31.545 --> 00:35:35.225 We like woke up one day and had an agency or product business 00:35:35.225 --> 00:35:36.725 or whatever business it was. 00:35:37.195 --> 00:35:40.565 And you kind of, kind of get in that for me, it was just kind of 00:35:40.565 --> 00:35:42.415 blended over time and it compounded. 00:35:42.415 --> 00:35:45.025 And I'm like, Oh, this isn't working now. 00:35:45.304 --> 00:35:46.144 I have two children. 00:35:46.144 --> 00:35:47.555 You have kids like. 00:35:48.345 --> 00:35:49.925 I didn't want to start the business. 00:35:50.355 --> 00:35:51.095 Now I do. 00:35:51.455 --> 00:35:52.885 I want more diversity. 00:35:52.925 --> 00:35:55.145 So that is the constant struggle. 00:35:55.635 --> 00:35:57.935 And, uh, it's, it's Island life. 00:35:58.294 --> 00:36:02.225 You know, it's in the middle of an ocean by yourself, because who can 00:36:02.225 --> 00:36:03.725 you talk to about these things? 00:36:04.005 --> 00:36:05.695 You're carrying the world on your shoulders. 00:36:05.915 --> 00:36:06.895 It's survival mode. 00:36:06.895 --> 00:36:08.395 How am I going to eat next? 00:36:08.395 --> 00:36:09.155 How are we going to do? 00:36:09.435 --> 00:36:13.415 And that's why it's so isolating and what I love talking and working with 00:36:13.415 --> 00:36:15.355 entrepreneurs, because I'm like, I get it. 00:36:15.395 --> 00:36:17.335 This is a tough thing we've chosen to do. 00:36:17.335 --> 00:36:17.434 Yeah. 00:36:18.315 --> 00:36:21.465 Matt: So before we start talking about post status and how you've maybe 00:36:21.465 --> 00:36:25.305 structured it now and like, I don't want to say taking a step back, but you're 00:36:25.305 --> 00:36:31.445 in the primary role at A2, um, at A2, what other future plans did you have? 00:36:31.445 --> 00:36:33.185 You just brought on Katie, right? 00:36:34.235 --> 00:36:38.465 And connecting with the community, obviously going to WordCamps, like any 00:36:38.465 --> 00:36:42.125 other big things that you're trying to do with A2 that, um, you know, 00:36:42.125 --> 00:36:43.465 that the community should know about? 00:36:43.465 --> 00:36:43.529 Absolutely. 00:36:44.885 --> 00:36:48.885 Cory: The biggest thing for us in A2 overall is who A2 is, reflection 00:36:48.885 --> 00:36:52.455 of them bringing us in to do this new team for them is a reflection 00:36:52.455 --> 00:36:54.065 of who they've been for 21 years. 00:36:54.275 --> 00:36:55.965 Um, done great work internally. 00:36:56.065 --> 00:36:59.514 Haven't always been able to share it out too, but our 00:36:59.514 --> 00:37:00.965 thing is just the relationship. 00:37:00.994 --> 00:37:03.585 I don't want to say we have another agency partner program because 00:37:03.625 --> 00:37:08.715 partnership partner in agency world, it's just like managed hosting. 00:37:08.895 --> 00:37:09.915 What is it really? 00:37:09.990 --> 00:37:10.220 Matt: you go. 00:37:10.845 --> 00:37:12.925 Cory: That doesn't mean those things. 00:37:13.325 --> 00:37:16.345 And for us, it's just all about relationships starting first 00:37:16.345 --> 00:37:18.325 with, okay, you run an agency. 00:37:18.545 --> 00:37:20.905 What are the things you're struggling with? 00:37:21.045 --> 00:37:22.175 What are the challenges you have? 00:37:22.575 --> 00:37:25.294 And one, we have to, we have to show up as your team. 00:37:25.644 --> 00:37:27.604 You shouldn't have to worry about hosting, you know, hosting. 00:37:27.955 --> 00:37:32.805 It's, it's a, if you have to, something's probably off it's okay. 00:37:32.805 --> 00:37:34.665 You need to go do your work and be freed up. 00:37:35.105 --> 00:37:40.675 And then from our team's perspective, uh, Katie and I is okay. 00:37:40.804 --> 00:37:42.255 What else can we help with? 00:37:42.565 --> 00:37:43.754 How can we support you best? 00:37:43.764 --> 00:37:45.024 Sometimes it's just hearing. 00:37:45.330 --> 00:37:45.610 Okay. 00:37:45.610 --> 00:37:47.540 I'm, I'm dealing with this, uh, project management is 00:37:47.550 --> 00:37:48.860 something we hear a lot, right? 00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:50.070 Okay, cool. 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:55.049 Then that kind of could come into connecting them with somebody internally, 00:37:55.049 --> 00:37:59.780 externally that we know, but also sharing some content that gives them an idea 00:37:59.850 --> 00:38:01.849 or an inspiration for that challenge. 00:38:01.850 --> 00:38:02.430 Knowing. 00:38:03.010 --> 00:38:07.050 Every business, every business owner is different, but that's really what is 00:38:07.050 --> 00:38:08.920 showing up as truly the collaborator. 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:11.409 I'm using collaborator, not partner because partners got 00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:13.530 so lost meaning in all this. 00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:17.080 How do we just show up and go, we're here to help you. 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:19.390 What can we do and try to do that? 00:38:19.390 --> 00:38:21.830 And that's not all clear just yet, but we know some of the 00:38:21.850 --> 00:38:23.210 issues they struggle with. 00:38:23.710 --> 00:38:27.560 Um, the other component is like you said, showing up at WordCamps 00:38:27.560 --> 00:38:28.859 and just connecting with people. 00:38:28.859 --> 00:38:31.810 So we'll be at WordCamp US, our team is in charge of that. 00:38:32.109 --> 00:38:36.630 This is new for both Katie and I, and so it's going to be fun, but that's just 00:38:36.630 --> 00:38:41.510 one facet of like how we try to connect with people in person and offline. 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.050 Matt: I did a stint three years at a company called Pagely. 00:38:46.190 --> 00:38:52.490 I know what it's like to show up at an event with a hosting brand on. 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:57.530 Oh boy, you probably have a sword under there just in case somebody comes at you. 00:38:58.010 --> 00:39:01.000 How did you, how do you feel, or how did it feel going to the 00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:02.264 first WordCamp as an affiliate? 00:39:02.345 --> 00:39:05.845 As a host, because host recommendations, reviews. 00:39:05.855 --> 00:39:08.275 It is a thing in the WordPress space. 00:39:08.595 --> 00:39:11.804 Uh, and you get some side eyes at the buffet line when you're getting 00:39:11.805 --> 00:39:13.395 your food for the, for WordCamp. 00:39:13.654 --> 00:39:14.245 What was it like? 00:39:15.160 --> 00:39:18.010 Cory: That was interesting being on the other side of that, 00:39:18.040 --> 00:39:22.000 cause it's always working with hosting companies, um, for sure. 00:39:22.390 --> 00:39:26.570 On the other side, I tried to show up as me, but it was something like, Oh, I 00:39:26.570 --> 00:39:30.590 should probably know more details about the particular things that we offer. 00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:32.869 I know the broad strokes for sure. 00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:35.909 I'm not a technical expert on hosting for sure. 00:39:35.910 --> 00:39:41.170 I leave that to Brian or founder and our leadership team and awesome support team. 00:39:41.170 --> 00:39:47.885 But, um, But I can share values that we espouse and connect to, 00:39:47.885 --> 00:39:50.865 and then find somebody to help with some of the specific answers. 00:39:51.355 --> 00:39:53.745 I wouldn't say it was antagonistic at all. 00:39:53.804 --> 00:39:57.375 Um, I think one thing I've always valued from the hosting industry 00:39:57.405 --> 00:40:00.284 overall is they do have the money. 00:40:00.285 --> 00:40:02.895 You can't really run WordPress without hosting. 00:40:02.905 --> 00:40:06.675 So, um, but they also support an undergird. 00:40:06.980 --> 00:40:11.670 The things like WordCamp, like for the sponsorship, it's expensive. 00:40:12.030 --> 00:40:16.660 An agency owner or product company might not have the money or feel the value 00:40:16.660 --> 00:40:18.569 of it, but a hosting has done that. 00:40:18.569 --> 00:40:22.840 And I hope they keep all of us, not just a two, uh, all the hosting 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:26.709 companies recognize, like, if we don't support this, it's going to wane. 00:40:27.139 --> 00:40:28.560 We have to show up and do that. 00:40:28.560 --> 00:40:31.040 So there's some responsibility in my opinion, we showed up. 00:40:31.060 --> 00:40:33.090 That's why we had a micro booth this year. 00:40:33.340 --> 00:40:36.150 I'll have to send you a picture so you can share it, but it was like, 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.630 Katie got me a little stand because we had a shared booth for this year 00:40:40.640 --> 00:40:43.519 because our team's still getting budget and things like that together. 00:40:43.829 --> 00:40:46.729 But it was like, we pulled up the little eight by 10 stand. 00:40:46.730 --> 00:40:51.569 I was like, this is hilarious, but trying to show our support for WordCamp Canada. 00:40:51.629 --> 00:40:55.560 Next year, when you do it, we'll be better equipped to kind of show up and help. 00:40:56.025 --> 00:40:57.585 Really, really, truly support you. 00:40:57.975 --> 00:41:01.735 Um, yeah, I, I think I find it very open. 00:41:01.745 --> 00:41:02.745 Most people are very open. 00:41:02.755 --> 00:41:06.235 You always get the, and we want to hear them, the problems that happens. 00:41:06.545 --> 00:41:07.465 I will say though. 00:41:07.850 --> 00:41:09.420 You and I could probably guess them right now. 00:41:09.420 --> 00:41:13.440 What the ones you hear over and over, you know, support, right. 00:41:14.720 --> 00:41:15.960 Product for sure is in there. 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:17.780 And the, but really the third is value. 00:41:18.020 --> 00:41:21.219 And you go, no, we always want to hear that, but we kind of get a sense. 00:41:21.219 --> 00:41:25.120 Like we have to do those three things over and over and over at a high clip. 00:41:25.450 --> 00:41:30.010 And, um, we just know that's part of the job, but the other side is 00:41:30.020 --> 00:41:34.285 we're trying to explore is how, how could we show up Better for 00:41:34.285 --> 00:41:37.105 you as a true partner collaborator. 00:41:38.295 --> 00:41:39.345 We're still figuring that out. 00:41:40.780 --> 00:41:45.100 Matt: this past WordCamp, uh, US, uh, where you and I met, um, 00:41:45.100 --> 00:41:47.779 I mean, I was, I haven't been on the other side of the booth either 00:41:47.780 --> 00:41:48.940 until this is the first one with 00:41:49.065 --> 00:41:49.585 Cory: All right. 00:41:49.595 --> 00:41:49.605 A 00:41:49.970 --> 00:41:52.610 Matt: And I was just like, wow, that, yeah, a lot of work. 00:41:53.085 --> 00:41:57.075 A lot more work than I thought went into, you know, setting up a booth, 00:41:57.125 --> 00:41:59.495 uh, let alone a standard booth. 00:41:59.505 --> 00:42:01.764 Like it wasn't anything, you know, crazy. 00:42:01.764 --> 00:42:04.624 Like we have the, the astronaut suit and we have the VR set up and 00:42:04.915 --> 00:42:06.465 a couple, maybe a couple extra TVs. 00:42:06.485 --> 00:42:09.585 But then you look at some of the big players, like, I don't know, jet pack 00:42:09.594 --> 00:42:12.935 Elementor, Bluehost, and you're like, Oh my God, this is, this is forever. 00:42:12.945 --> 00:42:15.485 But the costs, even for gravity forms. 00:42:16.210 --> 00:42:17.630 astronomical, right? 00:42:17.630 --> 00:42:21.550 And it really has me worried about the future of funding for WordCamp. 00:42:21.560 --> 00:42:25.809 So, um, yeah, there's definitely going to be some, some play there in, 00:42:25.830 --> 00:42:29.699 in how we structure these, on these in person events, maybe bringing it 00:42:29.700 --> 00:42:34.829 down to a certain number count, uh, just the, the, the pillar events 00:42:34.829 --> 00:42:36.119 in, in the different continents. 00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:39.580 And maybe that's what we ended up with, but, um, yeah, costs and everything 00:42:39.740 --> 00:42:42.790 are, are, are quite high, uh, and a lot of work at the same time. 00:42:43.310 --> 00:42:47.985 Um, Wrapping up, folks are wondering, Hey, what about this post status thing? 00:42:49.725 --> 00:42:50.395 You got it. 00:42:50.545 --> 00:42:51.185 It's yours. 00:42:51.555 --> 00:42:56.225 Uh, you brought on Yost as a partner as partners, a few ish years ago. 00:42:56.225 --> 00:42:58.515 I'm forgetting when, uh, last year. 00:42:59.484 --> 00:43:02.594 What's the, how do you, do you do like a 10 percent post status thing? 00:43:02.595 --> 00:43:06.624 Like, how do you keep that balance now so that you can keep everything 00:43:06.624 --> 00:43:10.174 under control and not, you know, burn out and get overwhelmed with 00:43:10.184 --> 00:43:12.295 having dual roles and being a dad. 00:43:13.615 --> 00:43:14.135 Cory: Right. 00:43:14.175 --> 00:43:17.774 Thankfully we've had, uh, Michelle for shit for a couple of years now. 00:43:17.815 --> 00:43:23.765 And in January naming her as our executive director to have a point person, 00:43:23.834 --> 00:43:28.224 someone energetic as she is kind of keeping the flame alive at post status. 00:43:28.224 --> 00:43:30.194 So it's in really, really good hands. 00:43:30.194 --> 00:43:32.544 So I can step away and. 00:43:32.605 --> 00:43:38.585 Yos, Marika and I are owners of Posettis and we all feel passionate. 00:43:38.625 --> 00:43:42.704 It needs to exist in the world, even if I had to step away, there's 00:43:42.704 --> 00:43:45.725 another thing that kind of played into all of this, which is can that 00:43:45.725 --> 00:43:47.454 business support full time team? 00:43:47.454 --> 00:43:51.685 And at the moment it couldn't, um, last year with economic stuff 00:43:51.685 --> 00:43:55.035 happening, uh, a lot of the same companies we're talking about hosting 00:43:55.035 --> 00:43:56.575 companies, which are our sponsors. 00:43:57.135 --> 00:44:00.265 Um, as you know, something, a common frustration, you and I 00:44:00.275 --> 00:44:02.835 share, um, how to cut budgets. 00:44:03.295 --> 00:44:06.285 And the first thing to go is sponsored media. 00:44:06.615 --> 00:44:11.005 And so that was simultaneous with me stepping aside or 00:44:11.015 --> 00:44:13.354 back was, okay, let's do this. 00:44:13.665 --> 00:44:17.365 The fuel, the money that supports this just wasn't there. 00:44:17.365 --> 00:44:20.555 It kind of went out because of all these conditions and things. 00:44:20.925 --> 00:44:26.705 And so stepping aside was one to keep it going and lighter financially 00:44:26.705 --> 00:44:28.245 while we kind of get through this. 00:44:28.605 --> 00:44:33.445 Um, you know, rough season financially for us, uh, to get on the other side. 00:44:33.445 --> 00:44:37.805 And if we can just survive through it, keep community there glued together going, 00:44:37.805 --> 00:44:39.365 which is Michelle is awesome at that. 00:44:39.725 --> 00:44:44.784 And frankly, slack community just kind of goes because we crave it. 00:44:44.844 --> 00:44:49.275 We crave that interaction with our colleagues, um, to get to the other side. 00:44:49.605 --> 00:44:52.885 When things start coming back, which we're already hearing indicators 00:44:52.885 --> 00:44:54.375 of, it's a constant frustration. 00:44:54.375 --> 00:44:59.325 You and I've shared, uh, that we need support for media within 00:44:59.335 --> 00:45:01.125 WordPress or it's not going to happen. 00:45:01.464 --> 00:45:02.665 That's just a fact. 00:45:03.315 --> 00:45:05.155 So we need these to come back. 00:45:05.155 --> 00:45:06.534 We need those budgets to come back. 00:45:06.544 --> 00:45:08.744 The people running those wanted to happen. 00:45:09.025 --> 00:45:09.505 It's just. 00:45:10.010 --> 00:45:11.770 You know, and I see this from the other side now. 00:45:12.010 --> 00:45:13.990 It's like, okay, we got to make it happen. 00:45:14.270 --> 00:45:18.710 Um as best we can And so that was that all played into it and also my personal 00:45:18.710 --> 00:45:22.780 journey It was time for me to kind of take the hat off not be the operator 00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:27.499 of that Let somebody else that has energy like michelle run it and get 00:45:27.499 --> 00:45:31.900 through this patch And start to try to build build on to what we were doing 00:45:32.065 --> 00:45:37.315 Matt: yeah, there's, um, an interesting demographic I, I, uh, 00:45:38.155 --> 00:45:41.955 posted about this earlier this year as like a, um, so what I'm looking 00:45:41.955 --> 00:45:45.005 for, uh, uh, forecast for the year. 00:45:45.144 --> 00:45:48.784 Uh, what do you, what do you, I forget the word is escaping me right now. 00:45:49.074 --> 00:45:52.744 Uh, you know, I made prediction, I made a prediction, uh, in the start 00:45:52.744 --> 00:45:56.144 of January, uh, that, you know, we're going to see a new type of, 00:45:56.154 --> 00:45:57.784 uh, person enter the community. 00:45:58.630 --> 00:46:01.740 And I've been talking about this a little bit on the, on the show is, um, 00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:06.130 you know, younger, yes, but also coming into the space, like, I only know page 00:46:06.130 --> 00:46:12.369 builders, so really, I'm here to work with WordPress, but I don't, I don't 00:46:12.390 --> 00:46:16.220 love WordPress, like, I'm not in love with WordPress, which might be a good 00:46:16.220 --> 00:46:20.280 thing, uh, for some of us to realize, uh, but like, they don't know the community 00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.560 because they came in from a whole other thing, and they, they were never, like, 00:46:23.580 --> 00:46:27.900 at a WordCamp Trying to figure out how to do the thing with WordPress. 00:46:27.910 --> 00:46:30.390 Like we were 15 years ago, right? 00:46:30.390 --> 00:46:32.640 Cause it was all, it's all, it's all been solved, right? 00:46:32.700 --> 00:46:35.709 It's either solved in the page builder or WordPress itself has already solved it. 00:46:35.709 --> 00:46:38.420 So they're not hacking away in the hallways, sitting on the floor 00:46:38.430 --> 00:46:41.719 with me, you Pippin, like all these people, like from back in the day, 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:44.950 like trying to do this thing with Edd and you know, all this other stuff. 00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:48.460 Um, so there's a whole new type of person I'm curious. 00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:52.540 One maybe from the A2 perspective, but also from the post status perspective. 00:46:52.700 --> 00:47:00.000 There's like a whole set of folks Which I'll put in a box in Facebook groups and 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:06.879 then those from from what I gather none of them know few of them know about Post 00:47:06.879 --> 00:47:12.050 status slack like it's two different two totally different worlds two totally 00:47:12.050 --> 00:47:17.360 different types of folks I've been trying to spend some time Getting to know 00:47:17.560 --> 00:47:21.550 that crowd and what they're after and what they're looking for in WordPress. 00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:25.199 From what I can tell, a lot of them are looking more from like the business side. 00:47:25.300 --> 00:47:26.799 Like, Hey, this is just a tool for us. 00:47:27.609 --> 00:47:28.340 We like it. 00:47:28.779 --> 00:47:29.979 We like the tool that we're using. 00:47:29.979 --> 00:47:32.729 We're actually super passionate about this tool that we think it's the best tool. 00:47:33.120 --> 00:47:36.000 Um, but we're also really here to just like grow a business. 00:47:36.940 --> 00:47:41.080 I'll go to a WordCamp, but I'm not, I'm not in it like you guys are. 00:47:41.450 --> 00:47:42.450 Do you feel that? 00:47:42.700 --> 00:47:46.630 And do you have ways that maybe you'll try to like bridge that gap if at all 00:47:46.640 --> 00:47:48.870 with either post status or work at A2? 00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:54.780 Cory: Well, for both posts and they too, we felt like we're talking about what I, 00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:58.550 well, I think it was in the bubble, the people that really are passionate about 00:47:58.550 --> 00:48:01.590 WordPress, the community, and it is. 00:48:02.060 --> 00:48:07.150 So almost like an awesome tool to build web projects, but there's so many people 00:48:07.150 --> 00:48:09.120 out there that aren't in the boat. 00:48:09.120 --> 00:48:14.290 They're not going to come to work at, you know, but they do use it as a tool. 00:48:14.299 --> 00:48:16.440 Maybe it's not the only tool, but it's a tool. 00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:19.179 And I think there's so many more. 00:48:19.555 --> 00:48:20.925 Of those out there. 00:48:21.215 --> 00:48:25.115 Um, they just haven't crossed the threshold and gone into a WordCamp 00:48:25.115 --> 00:48:29.255 or shown up at a post editor or, you know, they may be reading and 00:48:29.255 --> 00:48:32.705 listening to WP minute, but kind of as, okay, that was one tool. 00:48:32.934 --> 00:48:36.264 Like at WordCamp Canada, there was a couple of WordPressers now who 00:48:36.275 --> 00:48:39.295 have now shifted into Drupal and you go, those are great tools too. 00:48:39.625 --> 00:48:40.075 You know? 00:48:41.125 --> 00:48:42.215 So I agree. 00:48:42.245 --> 00:48:46.355 I think it's like the WordCamp DePaul organizers going to the colleges and. 00:48:46.650 --> 00:48:49.310 People interested in tech going, here's a thing called WordPress. 00:48:49.620 --> 00:48:53.440 It is a tool that they can use and perhaps make a great career out of it. 00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:54.640 But I think you're right. 00:48:54.640 --> 00:49:00.449 Like we need to go outside of the bubble and also realize they're not going 00:49:00.450 --> 00:49:05.189 to get a tattoo of WordPress on, you know, on themselves, like, but they do 00:49:05.189 --> 00:49:09.270 believe in the core philosophies, but they're not going to say it's just this. 00:49:09.655 --> 00:49:13.225 And there's so much opportunity out there and people doing really good work. 00:49:13.695 --> 00:49:19.104 So connecting with that from A2 and POSETS for sure, our focus, because, you 00:49:19.104 --> 00:49:23.645 know, like this, this camp particularly is like, you do see a lot of the people 00:49:23.645 --> 00:49:26.534 that are there and they're there because they really believe and care about it. 00:49:26.915 --> 00:49:29.234 Um, but there's so many more that go awesome tool. 00:49:29.454 --> 00:49:29.904 Cool. 00:49:30.504 --> 00:49:32.135 You know, let's get out there. 00:49:32.205 --> 00:49:35.635 That's just the harder work to reach them, but we need to do that. 00:49:35.635 --> 00:49:38.125 And we are trying to do that in both those companies. 00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:39.530 Matt: Last question. 00:49:39.560 --> 00:49:43.530 Um, one of the things I've been trying to unpack and I can't like, I'm really 00:49:43.530 --> 00:49:46.600 struggling with like trying to articulate this and maybe you can help me. 00:49:47.070 --> 00:49:51.345 Um, You're really trying to explain like the value of open source 00:49:51.345 --> 00:49:53.425 and open source WordPress, right? 00:49:53.435 --> 00:49:57.774 To not, to be critical of WordPress, but not to like 00:49:57.774 --> 00:49:59.685 hinder it from thriving, right? 00:49:59.694 --> 00:50:02.884 Like you don't, you don't want to say it's, it's, it's terrible. 00:50:02.915 --> 00:50:06.935 You can say it's terrible, but you don't want to believe that it's terrible, right? 00:50:06.935 --> 00:50:10.325 If that's your feeling, because it's only going to detract from 00:50:10.325 --> 00:50:15.720 the overall, um, Bigger picture and the longevity of the project. 00:50:16.160 --> 00:50:20.260 What I've been trying to say is it's okay to, and this is the part I'm struggling 00:50:20.260 --> 00:50:21.440 with and I don't know how to frame it. 00:50:21.450 --> 00:50:24.899 Maybe you can help me like to, to take from WordPress. 00:50:24.909 --> 00:50:31.509 Like you can also take from WordPress, meaning just use it and, and don't 00:50:31.510 --> 00:50:33.940 get consumed by it where you are. 00:50:34.675 --> 00:50:37.865 Uh, either get burned out or get hindered to the point where like 00:50:38.025 --> 00:50:40.285 you, you just want to throw your hands up and just say, um, it's not 00:50:40.295 --> 00:50:42.025 worth it for me to even care anymore. 00:50:42.265 --> 00:50:47.404 So it's okay to take from WordPress, whether it's a service, you start 00:50:47.405 --> 00:50:51.294 a services business, you are creating a plugin and selling 00:50:51.294 --> 00:50:54.404 it, you're doing courses, you're doing content, whatever it is. 00:50:54.405 --> 00:50:59.875 It's okay to, to absorb that because that's what everyone else is doing, but 00:50:59.875 --> 00:51:01.775 at the same time, don't forget to invest. 00:51:02.355 --> 00:51:07.595 In WordPress, I'm having a hard time like packaging that as like a, as a 00:51:07.595 --> 00:51:11.385 statement, but that's the way I feel like some people, it's okay, man, like it's, 00:51:11.395 --> 00:51:16.174 it's whenever you give back and, and, and contribute back to this project, however 00:51:16.174 --> 00:51:19.655 it is that you're doing it, whether you're a cheerleader or a core developer. 00:51:20.670 --> 00:51:21.740 As long as you're doing that. 00:51:21.810 --> 00:51:25.050 And then it's okay to say, I'm also profiting from this too. 00:51:25.070 --> 00:51:28.500 I'm taking my piece of this too, because that's what everyone else is doing. 00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:32.550 And I'm not going to worry so much that I'm the one that's getting left behind. 00:51:33.180 --> 00:51:34.089 That's what I struggle with. 00:51:34.130 --> 00:51:36.650 As you can tell, I don't know if you have a different thought on that. 00:51:38.145 --> 00:51:43.445 Cory: I fully agree with you like the overwhelming majority of people that use 00:51:43.445 --> 00:51:49.964 WordPress Probably don't get back in the sense that we all think Somehow we should 00:51:50.355 --> 00:51:54.690 but I think that's a misnomer and I think what you're saying is You know, come in. 00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:55.520 It's okay. 00:51:55.670 --> 00:51:56.200 You should. 00:51:56.210 --> 00:51:57.320 That's why we did this. 00:51:57.330 --> 00:51:59.430 That's what we all have contributed to it. 00:51:59.430 --> 00:52:03.550 Continue to use it, you know, however you can. 00:52:03.850 --> 00:52:08.609 There's very simple guidelines, which is if you, you know, with the GPL and things, 00:52:08.609 --> 00:52:10.890 but otherwise, like, that's the purpose. 00:52:10.890 --> 00:52:12.120 That's why people contribute. 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:17.110 Um, the other thing I would probably add to yours and say, I wholly agree 00:52:17.110 --> 00:52:22.000 with all of it is, Okay, when you get going, and you're using it, and you're 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:26.230 seeing the power, and you're thankful that it's here, that you got to do 00:52:26.230 --> 00:52:32.080 that, then, not that you have to pay this huge cosmic debt back, but like, 00:52:32.585 --> 00:52:37.835 It's as simple giving back contributing is simple as helping somebody else or 00:52:38.015 --> 00:52:40.975 mentioning WordPress is a great tool. 00:52:41.035 --> 00:52:44.164 The tool, maybe even if you feel that passionate about it and 00:52:44.334 --> 00:52:46.195 being an evangelist for WordPress. 00:52:46.515 --> 00:52:49.635 I mean, I think we get because it's a code project. 00:52:49.915 --> 00:52:52.515 Think if and I have felt this if I can't. 00:52:52.740 --> 00:52:53.960 Contribute code to it. 00:52:53.980 --> 00:52:55.300 I'm not giving back. 00:52:55.350 --> 00:52:57.890 That's a misnomer, but I've held that for a long time. 00:52:58.030 --> 00:53:03.419 I'm not a developer, all this stuff, but could I talk about it, share it, talk, 00:53:03.460 --> 00:53:07.149 you know, use them a business to say, by the way, we built this on WordPress. 00:53:07.180 --> 00:53:10.570 And part of this is it's free and open source. 00:53:10.810 --> 00:53:14.154 And so many people, the 40 plus percent of the internet have built it. 00:53:14.335 --> 00:53:17.375 Built on this because of thousands and thousands of people over 21 00:53:17.385 --> 00:53:18.735 years have contributed to it. 00:53:19.565 --> 00:53:24.185 That's contributing that's evangelizing WordPress to others. 00:53:24.215 --> 00:53:29.144 And like this person that organized in Nepal, helping train, whatever 00:53:29.144 --> 00:53:32.604 those strengths gifts are that you have using that for the benefit 00:53:32.605 --> 00:53:34.945 of open source thousand percent. 00:53:35.305 --> 00:53:40.595 And I think we've probably do it internally, but make it bigger debt 00:53:40.635 --> 00:53:43.784 than we think it is, where it's just should come out of thankfulness. 00:53:44.700 --> 00:53:46.490 Matt: Yeah, yeah, Cory 00:53:46.540 --> 00:53:47.220 Cory: your own strength. 00:53:47.730 --> 00:53:50.890 Matt: Cory Miller, the, the, the guy that I talk to publicly and 00:53:50.890 --> 00:53:55.320 record podcasts with publicly, uh, is the same conversations he and I 00:53:55.329 --> 00:53:59.090 have behind the scenes with just a fewer expletives, fewer expletives, 00:54:02.110 --> 00:54:05.880 A2, A2 hosting post status, uh, any special links you want 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:09.060 folks to go and visit for either A2 hosting or post status? 00:54:10.990 --> 00:54:11.900 Cory: think those are great. 00:54:11.910 --> 00:54:13.050 You can always find me. 00:54:13.050 --> 00:54:17.680 I try to be as open and approachable as possible, but, um, yeah, you can find 00:54:17.680 --> 00:54:21.269 me on Twitter and LinkedIn, all those things too, but, um, both those things 00:54:21.269 --> 00:54:22.850 is like you said, belief and care. 00:54:22.979 --> 00:54:26.379 So if you're interested in something we've talked about and what I'm 00:54:26.379 --> 00:54:28.580 doing and I can help you, I'm here. 00:54:28.930 --> 00:54:29.230 Matt: Awesome. 00:54:29.230 --> 00:54:29.770 Thanks a lot, Cory. 00:54:29.770 --> 00:54:30.580 Thanks for hanging out today. 00:54:31.860 --> 00:54:32.270 Cory: Thanks brother.