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Chris: Hey everybody, welcome to
the ordinary discipleship

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podcast. My name is Chris, here
with Jacob and, of course,

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Jesse. And today we're talking
about how people sometimes they

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feel insecure about connecting
with God, and sometimes, as

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leaders, we try to force the way
that we connect with God into

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the way that they should connect
with God, and then when they

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don't connect with God the same
way we connect with God,

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sometimes that can develop
shame. So how, as a

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discipleship, mentor, as a
leader, as a pastor, how do we

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not create pathways to shame,
but pathways to God,

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Jacob: the like, unspoken part
of what you're getting at that,

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I think we're trying to get out
in this episode, is there's so

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many people who are like, I
don't know how to connect with

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God. You just tell me Pastor
exactly, and then pastor says,

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uh, cool, yeah, I'll just tell
you how I connect with God and

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make that normative, right,
right? Everybody look like me,

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right? That's the easiest thing,
but that's not really equipping

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people to connect with God.
That's just making little and,

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yeah. And so the way that we
actually, in my congregation, we

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use a tool, like a like a batch
of content I got years ago, and

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I keep always trying to look for
who to attribute this to. I

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heard it from a guy named Ron
walborn, but I know he didn't

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come up with it. He got it from
somebody else, but it's, it's

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called,

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Jessie Cruickshank: you know who
this comes from? Please email us

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and let us know. Yes,

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Chris: Justin got so close to
the mic on that it was

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terrifying.

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Jacob: It's six spiritual
pathways. So it's six different

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instincts for how people connect
with God, and so they are, the

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esthetic instinct, where people
connect through beauty and

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order, the experiential
instinct, where people connect

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through experience and emotion.
The activist instinct, people

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who connect with God through
through doing things and feeling

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like they're serving God, the
contemplative instinct, where

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people connect with God through
listening and the interior. The

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student instinct, where people
connect with God through truth

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and study, and the relational
instinct, where people connect

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through relationship and love.
They connect with God when

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they're with other people. And
so one of the first things we do

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is we orient people to this
content, to say, hey, there's

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not only one way to connect with
God, and maybe. And the first

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thing we point out when we when
we do this teaching, is like you

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may have been in communities
before, where they said there

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was one way to connect with God,
or they promoted one way to

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connect with God. And that can
do a couple of things. One, it

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can cause you to question
yourself and say, What's wrong

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with me? That God's not
connecting with me? Or it can

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cause you to question God and
say, maybe God has gone silent.

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This is why, this is one of the
first things we do as we're

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starting to walk with people on
a journey of discipleship, is

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say, hey, let's help you reflect
on what's what's the easiest way

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for you to connect with God, and
how can we equip you to do that?

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So what are you I would say that
I tend toward the contemplative

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instinct and maybe the student
instinct. I mean, look at all

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those. Because I like
understanding, but I'm not like

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a big, quiet time guy. That's
not what. So that's what you

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would think like, not like a big
discipline guy, but unlocking

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he's looking at me funny, like,
I don't wake up every morning at

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5am and read my Bible. That's
not what I do. Wait, wait, what?

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Yeah, that's right. See, that's
not God, bad things. Bad things.

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Yeah.

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Chris: Jesse, what are you on
this list? What do you think you

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are,

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Jessie Cruickshank: I would be
esthetic and experiential. So I

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when the world gets noisy and
the voices in my head get loud,

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and I cannot tell the difference
between my soul the enemy and

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God, because, because it just
happens sometimes and I get

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swirly, I need to go out in
nature and let the the truth of

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nature, because scripture says
that nature is God's first

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message to us. It's his first
it's they call it first

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revelation. And so I can go out
there and just breathe and let

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God find me and calm me down and
recalibrate me. And I talk to

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God while I'm gardening. I talk
to God while I'm hiking. I can

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hear him most clearly in those
in those places, because, for

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whatever reason, maybe it's my
ADD, but it calms the rest of

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the noise down, and his voices,
or his presence is what remains

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for me. So, and then the
experiential I love joy. I love

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encountering silliness. I think
God is super silly. I think

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there's, like, I don't think the
enemy can be silly. I don't

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think the enemy's got a sense of
humor and can't tell a joke. So,

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like, okay, so. Joy is also one
of those pure things for me, so

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probably those two. So

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Chris: when Jake's dad started
the church, the amazing Paul

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Hoyer started the church in Lake
Mary. He had a group of guys

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that are not your typical, like
church people. It reminded me of

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like when Jesus came down and he
got to his disciples, and he

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went to the fishermen, and then
he went to the tax collectors.

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And it's like, if I had my dream
team, it probably wouldn't be

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fishermen and tax collectors.
And you could pick anybody on

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planet Earth, and you pick these
guys. I mean, they probably had

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salty language, they probably
had a few beers, and

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Jessie Cruickshank: they had not
been they weren't following

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another rabbi, so they hadn't
been accepted into a

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discipleship program exactly.

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Chris: And he came down, and
he's like, this is your dream

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team. This is who's gonna spread
Christianity to the entire

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world, okay? And that's kind of
what his dad did. Like his dad

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was 100% activist, and he would
just like, go find widows that

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needed a new roof. And then he
would get all these blue collar

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guys together and say, Hey, you
want to go build a roof for this

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lady is about to be evicted. And
they would all do it. And it was

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like the pied piper leading all
these people and, and, and like,

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20 years later, they're still at
the church, even after, uh,

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Jake's dad passed away because
of the legacy and the activist

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mentality that Paul built in
that place, and so let's say

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you're the you're the activist,
or you're the contemplative, or

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you're the student. You can get
those people that are like

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minded, and you can evangelize
them pretty quickly. But Is it

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tough for somebody who, let's
say, is an activist to disciple

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somebody who's in another
category?

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Jessie Cruickshank: That is a
great question. Thank you. I

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think if you're going to
disciple somebody, it's likely

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that they're different than you,
and you need to understand that

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the goal isn't that they connect
to God the way that you do, but

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that you're encouraging them to
connect to God, gotcha like and

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find that. Find that right, just
like you know, as a parent you

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are, you don't necessarily want
your kid to do the same job that

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you do, but you want them to do
the job that they find

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fulfilling, that they the
vocation that they are

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interested in. Maybe that's the
same as you but maybe it's

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something totally different. And
I think the worst thing we can

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do as a disciple maker is that
if we don't understand, and we

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can't actually resonate with how
they connect with God, like the

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thing you don't do is shut that
down, right? Shut them down.

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Tell them, Oh no, that's not
legitimate, because you may not

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understand, and you can say
that, like, wow, I don't

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actually connect with God that
way. Tell me more about that.

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Oh, and learn from them what
that's like. And then you can,

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like, share, oh, this is how it
feels for me. This is the

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thoughts that go through my
head. These are the feels that I

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have. Here's what my experience
is like. Tell me about your

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experience, and you can learn
from them, theirs and like,

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like, that's a beautiful thing.
You're both shaping each other

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and learning from each other in
that. Because maybe as I look at

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this list, I kind of have
different seasons. Yeah, there

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are times where God has moved
and I need to go find him in a

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new way. And so contemplative is
way more part of my life than it

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used to be and, and I'm like,
Oh, wait, I can actually sit

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still and abide, Oh, that's
good. That's nice. I couldn't do

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that for decades. Oh, that's
good. And if I hadn't hung out

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with people who connected with
God that way, and they, and I,

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like, learned from them, I
would, I would think either I'd

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done something wrong or I
wouldn't know how to do that,

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like we go through seasons. So I
would hope that at some point I

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would, I would have an
experience of God in each one of

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those, even if it's not my
primary, even it's not my

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default, even if it just
happened by miracle one time,

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but I don't know, appreciation
for the the way God meets us is

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is an important aspect of being
a disciple maker.

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Chris: So Jacob, not everybody
is like aware of what they are.

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How do you you said in your
church, you actually use this

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program to help them to figure
out how they connect with God.

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Like, can you talk a little bit
about that process? What do you

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do? Ask questions. How do you
how do you help somebody figure

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out, like, where they're

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Jacob: at? So we just use this
in a workbook in our like,

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opening course. And we, we
actually, you can kind of think

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of it like, if you're if you're
familiar with the popular

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paradigm of love languages, you
just reflect on your past

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experience and say, I'll also
ask people like, when has there

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been a mountaintop moment in
your life, like, when's the time

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you felt most connected to God?
What was happening, and was

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there any Was there ever a time
in your life when you felt like

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a spiritual misfit, where. You
felt like you were the turtle in

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the punch bowl of the faith
community, you know? And so that

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allows people to reflect on it.
And what I even get from people

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more than oh my gosh, I have a I
know clearly who I am in this

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schematic, what I hear them say
is like they're just encouraged

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to know that there are different
ways and that there's not just

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one way in this class, this
opening class, we do. I've

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gotten run it twice in the last
12 months because we've had a

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lot of new people showing up.
And there was a guy recently in

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one of the classes who said, you
know, I've been through a lot of

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these, like new member classes
in churches. And he said,

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usually they're about trying to
figure out how I plug into the

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church. He's like, what I like
about this is it's actually

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about helping me figure out how
I'm gonna live my life shaped by

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Jesus. And that's like, I think,
to your question of like, can

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you disciple somebody who's
different than you? I think you

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can, if you understand that
discipleship is helping them

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become themselves, if you think
discipleship is making them look

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like what discipleship means to
you? Well then, yeah, it's going

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to be tough.

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Chris: No, that's a great point,
and it's about helping them to

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discover who they are and how
they connect with Jesus and and

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not fitting them into some
cookie cutter program.

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Jessie Cruickshank: So Chris,
can I? Can I jump on one of my

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little soap boxes right now? I
would love it like

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Chris: because let's pour out
the soapbox for a second. Jesse,

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all season has not jumped on it
yet, and so it's a nice soapbox.

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And let's go. Here we go. Here
it is. It's set up.

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Jessie Cruickshank: So one of
the things that can make me

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crazy and upset is when I hear
someone either a discipleship

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per a disciple maker or a
mentor, someone tell another

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person you can't trust your
heart in it. And that comes up,

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right? So, so somebody hears,
oh, they feel this way. Or, you

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know, hey, my, my, my heart told
me to do this. My heart told me

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to be here. My heart told me to
say something to that person, or

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give them money to the the
person on the street, like,

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like, they they their heart told
them something, and they

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responded to it, and someone
else says to them, oh, you can't

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trust your heart. Like, like,
boom, force field, your heart is

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I was raised in a church. They
said your heart is deceptive.

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They would quote, your heart is
wicked above all things, you

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know, and that's a that's a
verse in Old Testament, and and

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that stuff makes me crazy,
because here's here's the other

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part of that, like whole
paradigm. Truth is that God

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loves your heart. God made your
heart. God thinks your heart is

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great, and he wants to restore
it where it's broken. He wants

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to heal it where it's wounded.
He wants to refine it where it

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believes a lie. But that doesn't
mean your heart is bad. And I

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remember like the season of my
life, because I grew up in this

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fundamentalist church that shut
down all emotion and heart and

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everything like they it was a
Cessationist church. We got

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kicked out. It didn't go well.
We didn't we didn't abide with

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that very well my whole family,
and because I had had this

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practice of, oh, my heart says
that I can't listen to it, and I

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would shove it in the corner.
And we do this with our

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emotions, right? We're like, oh,
you can't trust your emotions.

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They lie to you. And that's not
that's equally untrue. What your

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heart says and what your
emotions say are information for

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you. They're They're your
they're yourself talking to you,

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or God, talking to you. It just
may be incomplete. It may not be

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the whole picture, right? But it
the answer to that is, is to

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listen to it and bring it before
the Lord. The answer to that

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isn't to shove it in the corner
and tell it to shut up, right?

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That's how we end up in therapy,
because that is not honoring

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ourselves or honoring, you know,
the way that that God made us,

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and God's a lover of our soul.
So when we tell people to shut

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down their heart, we are we are
severing a major line that God

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can talk to them and they can
receive from God. And if that's

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their primary line, the way that
God made them, then you just cut

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them off from being able to hear
God, and you put them in like

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solitary confinement. So instead
of doing that to one another, we

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need to encourage them, have
them voice. What is their heart

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saying? Let's talk about that.
Let's bring that into the light.

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Let's see if there's anything
else to like add to that to make

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it more complete, more whole,
more healed. But we need to

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encourage people to listen to
how God is talking to them, even

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if it's in mixture, even if it's
like, not totally accurate, you

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know, even if it's not totally
pure, we got to encourage that,

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to make it healthier, not shut
it down, because, you know,

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there might be taintedness in
it, like it's, oh, it's past the

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expiration date. And so, you
know, we got to throw out the

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milk, because it might have
some. Sourness in it, like,

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like, that's not how we're
supposed to treat our heart or

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soul, because then we won't hear
from God and it'll shut us down.

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I just

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Chris: had to do that this
morning. My wife pulled the milk

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out of the fridge, and it was
two days past the expiration,

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but I opened it up and it kind
of still smelled good. And she

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said, Do you really want to
gamble for $4 I'm like, so I

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poured it down the sink. Just
poured it right down. No.

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Jessie Cruickshank: See, here's
the interesting thing. Is that

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when milk is bad, it smells bad.
That's what I thought. The date

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doesn't make it bad

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Chris: the culture, that's what
I felt like. And if it's bad,

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doesn't, it just

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Unknown: so, doesn't. If it
don't stink, it's okay.

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Chris: And if it stinks, doesn't
it just become cottage cheese

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and you eat it. Is that not
right? I don't know. All right,

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okay, well, I think that's as
good a place as any. To maybe

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wrap this one up, we went a
little long last time. Went a

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little short this time. But
here's the thing, this is a free

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podcast, so you got your money's
worth. I'll tell you that right

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00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:06,840
now. Thank you guys for joining
us for the ordinary discipleship

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podcast. It's been a joy and a
pleasure. Make sure that if you

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enjoyed this episode, that you
like it, and you could review it

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00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,380
for us, and then other people
will find it. And there's like,

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I think they said there's like
22 million podcasts out there.

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So help us rise to the top,
please. And Jesse Jacob, if they

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want to learn more about what
you guys are doing for the

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kingdom of God. How can somebody
find that out? You can

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Jessie Cruickshank: always find
out what we're up to@hoology.co

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that's W, H, O, o, l, o, G,
y.co. We got trainings for teams

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on how to deal with this stuff,
how to encourage people to be a

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disciple maker. We got disciple
maker training as a Bible study

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that you can watch a video
series with a downloadable

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workbook. You can get that from
the website. So just different

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things, we're here to help equip
you.

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Chris: Thanks guys, and thank
you guys for joining us on the

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ordinary discipleship podcast.
God bless. We'll see you next

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time bye, bye. You.