WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:12.538 --> 00:00:18.598 Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:19.108 --> 00:00:20.608 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:20.608 --> 00:00:23.308 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:23.308 --> 00:00:23.368 Okay. 00:00:35.117 --> 00:00:37.217 Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:37.217 --> 00:00:38.777 I am so glad you're here. 00:00:38.777 --> 00:00:40.307 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:40.367 --> 00:00:43.787 Transformative Principal is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network. 00:00:44.207 --> 00:00:49.427 You can find a show for everything that you're doing in education@bepodcastnetwork.com. 00:00:50.432 --> 00:00:53.192 Today I'm excited to have on the program Adrian Ireland. 00:00:53.222 --> 00:01:04.142 He's an international educator systems thinker and author dedicated to reimagining the architecture of learning, and I'm really excited to talk with him because we both have some very strong beliefs. 00:01:04.142 --> 00:01:12.332 And he wrote a book called Designing Different, where he shares the lessons, insights, and strategies gathered from years of navigating the complexity of educational reform. 00:01:12.692 --> 00:01:16.652 Inspiring others to move beyond better and design the future of learning. 00:01:16.652 --> 00:01:19.022 So Adrian, welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:01:19.022 --> 00:01:19.922 Great to have you here. 00:01:20.067 --> 00:01:20.757 Thank you, Jethro. 00:01:20.757 --> 00:01:21.327 Great to be here. 00:01:22.562 --> 00:01:28.412 Well, I'm excited to chat with you because this is something that I is so important that we. 00:01:29.252 --> 00:01:48.272 about and give attention to design in schools, and I'm so glad to see that you wrote a book called Designing Different About it because I also wrote a book called School X, which is about designing the school experience for the people that are there, which is required to change every year because the people that are there change every year. 00:01:48.632 --> 00:01:53.222 And those are things we just do things because they've always been done. 00:01:53.537 --> 00:01:56.747 And we don't give a lot of thought to it. 00:01:56.837 --> 00:02:00.587 And I have a story that illustrates this and I'd love to get your take on it. 00:02:01.907 --> 00:02:15.407 we, I was in a school where, uh, we made some changes and the counselor was talking to the new kids coming in, and she said this phrase, she said, we used to do it like this, but now it's gonna be different. 00:02:15.407 --> 00:02:16.667 We're gonna do it like this. 00:02:16.727 --> 00:02:19.097 And I talked to her afterward and I said, Hey, why did you say that? 00:02:19.922 --> 00:02:25.412 no reason for you to say, we used to do things differently because these kids have never been here. 00:02:25.652 --> 00:02:31.292 They are going to do whatever we say we're telling them what it's like. 00:02:31.562 --> 00:02:32.492 Why did you say that? 00:02:32.492 --> 00:02:35.852 And she said, well, I, it's a big change and you know, everybody's getting used to it. 00:02:35.852 --> 00:02:37.772 And I said, well, these kids aren't getting used to it. 00:02:38.162 --> 00:02:47.012 So what you did is you inserted into their minds this reason to be nervous and unsure about something because you are not confident about it. 00:02:47.012 --> 00:02:48.422 So you passed that on to them. 00:02:48.917 --> 00:02:51.347 And she was like, I've never thought about it like that. 00:02:52.637 --> 00:02:55.157 so, so what's your perspective on that interaction? 00:02:56.387 --> 00:02:59.687 Yeah, I mean I think that that kind of interaction happens all the time. 00:02:59.717 --> 00:03:02.807 Uh, not just in education, but 'cause we all come with our own. 00:03:03.497 --> 00:03:04.277 Baggage, right? 00:03:04.277 --> 00:03:06.077 We, we have our own history. 00:03:06.077 --> 00:03:09.257 We have our own norms and systems that we grew up in. 00:03:09.677 --> 00:03:15.347 Um, and then that's a big, uh, force that can keep us stuck in place, right? 00:03:15.347 --> 00:03:28.937 What, what is normal, what our identity is, is linked to, um, and even what we feel competent in, even if that competence is maybe, uh, not serving us or, or our students. 00:03:29.117 --> 00:03:29.957 So I think. 00:03:30.467 --> 00:03:32.027 That happens all the time. 00:03:32.027 --> 00:03:33.137 I see it myself. 00:03:33.137 --> 00:03:45.767 And I agree, it's, it's hard to, to sometimes pause yourself in that moment, but it's, it's best to let people step into something new, uh, like it's the, like, it's normal. 00:03:46.157 --> 00:03:49.667 Um, and not create that, that tension if you don't need to. 00:03:50.862 --> 00:03:51.572 Yeah, it. 00:03:52.577 --> 00:03:54.827 It's going to be new to them already. 00:03:55.097 --> 00:03:59.117 They don't need something else saying, here's why this is weird. 00:03:59.147 --> 00:04:06.557 Here's why this is difficult, here's why this is challenging, that doesn't help anybody to, to put those things in their head. 00:04:06.557 --> 00:04:09.017 And yet we do that all the time. 00:04:09.077 --> 00:04:17.387 And what's interesting is at this school we had, um, it was a seventh and eighth grade school and we had an army base that was right next door. 00:04:17.387 --> 00:04:17.747 So. 00:04:18.152 --> 00:04:22.862 A third of our students every year were brand new because of the army base changing out. 00:04:23.462 --> 00:04:27.092 And so we had the seventh graders coming in. 00:04:27.302 --> 00:04:43.467 So really it was more like about two thirds of our school were new every year, and so we could make all kinds of changes whenever we needed to because there wasn't this cultural, everybody's been here forever kind of a thing, except with the teachers, they had been there and so. 00:04:44.297 --> 00:05:04.397 them, it was difficult to make changes, but for the people who were experiencing it, it wasn't, and it was so difficult to get them to see that it was worthwhile to look at things From the student's perspective, uh, would you give advice to someone about helping the adults who are in the building and have been there for a while? 00:05:04.397 --> 00:05:09.407 How would you help them see the need to change and make some differences, different changes? 00:05:09.832 --> 00:05:11.602 Yeah, it's, it's a great question. 00:05:12.022 --> 00:05:20.452 Um, I mean, I have a pretty strong belief that people need to have small but significant. 00:05:21.197 --> 00:05:25.637 Different experiences in order to start to shift their viewpoints. 00:05:25.877 --> 00:05:35.507 I think sometimes we talk in the abstract a lot about, um, these big frameworks in like nirvana of if only we, we did this. 00:05:35.507 --> 00:05:38.477 And it just seems like, uh, scary and a lot of work. 00:05:38.507 --> 00:05:43.307 And I think if you can create these little sandboxes where. 00:05:43.682 --> 00:05:52.892 Uh, you can create different architectures of learning, different types of environments where people can actually experience students. 00:05:53.372 --> 00:06:04.562 Students they know in one context, actually being very different in another context, I think this is where I've seen the most powerful change happen. 00:06:04.922 --> 00:06:07.082 Um, for example, I mean, coaches. 00:06:08.117 --> 00:06:10.277 Are often quite progressive in their teaching. 00:06:10.277 --> 00:06:12.497 For this reason, I've been a coach for a long time. 00:06:12.857 --> 00:06:15.257 Um, I know a lot of coaches, I coach volleyball. 00:06:15.587 --> 00:06:33.467 Um, and I think it's powerful to be a teacher and a coach because that same exact kid sitting in your science class, wasting all of his time being, um, from what your perspective is quite useless in that setting is maybe the star of that team putting in. 00:06:34.172 --> 00:06:37.592 Hours before school, after school, working out on the weekends. 00:06:37.982 --> 00:06:45.242 Um, and you just see them in this totally different light and it just, you have to ask the question like, what is different here? 00:06:45.512 --> 00:06:45.812 Right? 00:06:45.812 --> 00:06:47.492 Like, how is this the same child? 00:06:47.942 --> 00:06:56.342 Um, and that leads to more interesting questions around, uh, design and different, like how different environments are set up. 00:06:56.702 --> 00:07:00.362 Um, so I think making little pockets where people. 00:07:00.992 --> 00:07:10.767 Can experience students differently, um, starts them asking, uh, questions that then can lead to, to change. 00:07:13.292 --> 00:07:20.807 Yeah, I, I really appreciate that perspective because I've seen that also not being a coach, 'cause I never was, but that idea of giving. 00:07:21.122 --> 00:07:30.992 Kids, an opportunity to be seen in a different light can really change how you perceive them and how they perceive you and how, um, they perceive the whole experience. 00:07:31.292 --> 00:07:42.272 So you talked a little bit about architecture and mentioned that, but I want to get your thoughts deeper on that because you say that education has an architecture problem, not an effort problem. 00:07:42.392 --> 00:07:49.832 And so many times when we're talking about change in schools, people get upset because they think what we're saying is that teachers are. 00:07:50.252 --> 00:07:54.422 Not working hard or principals aren't working hard, and that's not the issue. 00:07:54.482 --> 00:08:05.522 But, this goes back to the question about AI where a lot of people are saying like, I can have AI write this newsletter or write this parent email or answer this question, or whatever. 00:08:06.002 --> 00:08:09.932 And the real question we should be asking is, should we be doing that task in the first place? 00:08:10.727 --> 00:08:18.977 Because if we shouldn't be doing that task in the first place, AI is definitely not the right tool because it's just perpetuating this thing that we're doing over and over again. 00:08:19.277 --> 00:08:21.497 And so it really is an architecture problem. 00:08:21.497 --> 00:08:25.157 But I want to hear your perspective on that because that totally resonated with me. 00:08:25.427 --> 00:08:27.767 Tell me more about that and explain it to our listeners. 00:08:29.367 --> 00:08:29.847 Yeah. 00:08:29.847 --> 00:08:34.137 Uh, an analogy I like to use is thinking about a bunch of people. 00:08:34.592 --> 00:08:48.212 Swimming in a river, uh, everybody's swimming very hard, exerting a lot of efforts, students, parents, teachers, um, but often not moving in the direction that they want to. 00:08:48.482 --> 00:08:56.642 Um, because the river is flowing in the wrong direction, um, in the flow of that river is determined by. 00:08:57.317 --> 00:08:58.217 The architecture. 00:08:58.367 --> 00:09:11.567 Um, and that means how you're setting up environments, uh, to allow for intrinsic motivation, curiosity, um, autonomy agency, all of these things, which we talk about a lot. 00:09:11.627 --> 00:09:11.927 Um. 00:09:12.497 --> 00:09:14.807 In education, wellbeing, social emotional development. 00:09:15.107 --> 00:09:18.737 But we often talk about them and we like, uh, curricular ize them. 00:09:18.737 --> 00:09:21.167 We put them into curriculum. 00:09:21.167 --> 00:09:32.237 Like, let me, uh, let me give you a, a five lesson PowerPoint on, uh, wellbeing and then that will, uh, help your, your state of wellbeing. 00:09:32.597 --> 00:09:36.167 Um, we have a, a tendency to do this and, and that's just. 00:09:36.812 --> 00:09:38.492 Normal within our current paradigm. 00:09:38.492 --> 00:09:40.052 That's, that's what we do. 00:09:40.412 --> 00:09:45.752 Um, but a different architecture is really, um, shifting around the. 00:09:48.017 --> 00:09:57.227 How schools are organized, um, what the driving outcomes are, what kinds of degrees of freedom there are, um, for choosing to be in a certain class. 00:09:57.647 --> 00:10:04.607 Um, and there are real constraints, obviously, around shifting architecture, and we can get into that a little bit later. 00:10:05.027 --> 00:10:14.987 Um, but yeah, it's, I, what frustrates me is when students and teachers, um, feel like they are. 00:10:15.572 --> 00:10:27.122 Failing, giving their best effort, um, in a system that wasn't really designed for, for them to succeed or just for a very narrow band to succeed. 00:10:29.522 --> 00:10:41.402 It defines success in education in a very specific, narrow way, like you said, and, and that idea of, you know, this is, this is how it works. 00:10:41.402 --> 00:10:47.412 So if, if we need kids to learn how to act better at school, then we need to start doing lessons on it. 00:10:47.412 --> 00:10:47.467 And. 00:10:48.287 --> 00:10:51.587 Like explicit instruction is the answer to everything. 00:10:51.797 --> 00:10:54.767 And while that's, that's great. 00:10:54.797 --> 00:11:02.507 If you know exactly how you want someone to act in a given situation, then that is the best way to do it. 00:11:02.507 --> 00:11:10.307 Like if you want kids to line up they're going out the door, then you teach them, you line up because we're gonna go out the door. 00:11:10.667 --> 00:11:13.817 And if that's the most important thing, then yes, you can definitely teach that. 00:11:14.117 --> 00:11:16.607 But it more important than that is. 00:11:17.012 --> 00:11:23.192 We want them to be considerate and kind and respectful to the people around them as we are leaving the classroom. 00:11:24.227 --> 00:11:29.567 that doesn't necessarily mean that lining up is the best way to do it, but that's the approach we take. 00:11:29.657 --> 00:11:33.887 We say, what will, what will the best thing look like? 00:11:34.187 --> 00:11:40.427 And then we make that the thing that we're trying to do, rather than saying, how do we want our kids to really act? 00:11:40.427 --> 00:11:45.287 And what do we want them to really be like and who they are as people? 00:11:46.457 --> 00:11:49.277 that kind of thing allows students to. 00:11:49.637 --> 00:11:51.617 Learn in different situations. 00:11:51.767 --> 00:11:56.507 How can I show kindness and respect to the people around me in whatever's going on? 00:11:56.627 --> 00:12:01.937 And you don't teach that by saying, here's this specific instance in how you act. 00:12:02.237 --> 00:12:14.477 You constantly talk and reflect and have opportunities for kids to engage with adults about that particular topic and give feedback and get feedback and understand how they could have done that better. 00:12:14.867 --> 00:12:17.807 And yes, there are lots of barriers to that, but. 00:12:18.512 --> 00:12:21.722 You don't, you don't teach someone by curricular rising everything. 00:12:22.157 --> 00:12:30.497 Yeah, I mean, I think you often, we think you can get at something directly when really it more emerges from, from the environment. 00:12:30.797 --> 00:12:31.997 Um, and I think one. 00:12:32.267 --> 00:12:32.327 Yeah. 00:12:32.867 --> 00:12:39.707 One element or critical ingredients, kinda like the elephant in the room within education is motivation and engagement, right? 00:12:39.737 --> 00:12:48.317 Um, I think when we curricular size things, it looks great on paper and it seems like, oh, well we can move kids through this. 00:12:48.557 --> 00:12:56.267 Um, and they will learn these key things that we want them to learn and a lot of the things we want them to learn are highly valuable and valid. 00:12:56.627 --> 00:12:57.107 Um. 00:12:57.467 --> 00:13:01.337 But if there's no motivation, it's like a car with no gas, right? 00:13:01.337 --> 00:13:04.547 It doesn't matter how great the road is in front of you. 00:13:04.937 --> 00:13:11.087 Um, if the car's not going anywhere, um, then you're not gonna be getting those outcomes that you want. 00:13:11.417 --> 00:13:20.117 Um, so sometimes we, uh, neglect students autonomy, uh, at our own kind of peril. 00:13:22.322 --> 00:13:33.842 So, uh, motivation is one of those, uh, buzzwords and, and things that people say that I believe gets pretty misunderstood and mischaracterized. 00:13:33.842 --> 00:13:36.477 So can you talk a little bit more about motivation, what you mean by that? 00:13:38.042 --> 00:13:41.462 Uh, yeah, so I mean, there's, there's a lot of forms of motivation. 00:13:41.462 --> 00:13:42.182 If you go into. 00:13:42.632 --> 00:13:59.642 Psychological literature, you'll see a million types of extrinsic and intrinsic motivation, and you will never find an experience where a student is 100% extrinsically motivated by something or 100% intrinsically motivated, right? 00:13:59.642 --> 00:14:04.112 It's this really complex, uh, blend of these two factors. 00:14:04.847 --> 00:14:10.397 I talk about it kind of as a, a tug of war between these two different polls. 00:14:10.757 --> 00:14:15.947 And what's important is more, which side is winning that tug of war. 00:14:16.427 --> 00:14:29.867 Because even when you set up something with extrinsic motivators, like grades being the dominant one in school, you're still gonna have students blending in, uh, intrinsic. 00:14:30.647 --> 00:14:31.757 Motivations into that. 00:14:31.757 --> 00:14:35.867 Like they're building more competency and so they're starting to enjoy the process. 00:14:36.167 --> 00:14:43.487 Like they're in a, a team setting and they're, uh, feeling like they belong and they have good relationships. 00:14:43.757 --> 00:14:54.797 Um, and so it's always a blend, but sometimes we, we do ourself a bit of a, a disservice by skewing heavily to extrinsic motivation. 00:14:54.797 --> 00:14:59.032 And the, the damage of that, um, is one that it's. 00:14:59.687 --> 00:15:01.907 Not sustainable in the long term, right? 00:15:01.907 --> 00:15:10.877 So when you, when you leave school or someone stops supplying you with good reasons, um, you can't motivate yourself and function. 00:15:10.877 --> 00:15:18.377 And the second one is it informs, uh, the story that we tell ourselves about why we do things. 00:15:18.917 --> 00:15:28.007 Um, and so if you're in an dominantly extrinsically motivated mindset, um, you're always gonna be telling yourself the story of, I'm doing this. 00:15:28.607 --> 00:15:32.387 For this other thing, which is outside of the experience itself, right? 00:15:32.387 --> 00:15:37.457 It's not actually I'm doing this because I'm interested, uh, and you'll find if. 00:15:38.447 --> 00:15:40.847 Without obvious extrinsic motivators. 00:15:40.937 --> 00:15:45.707 People often default to the reason why they're doing something is because they like it. 00:15:46.547 --> 00:15:51.287 Uh, because people need to tell themselves stories about why they do things right. 00:15:51.377 --> 00:16:02.477 Um, but sometimes we give them too easy of an out, but by letting 'em say, oh, I'm doing this for the grade, or I'm doing this for, to get into Harvard, or whatever your, your end, end goal is. 00:16:04.152 --> 00:16:06.557 Well, yeah, and, and right now I'm working on my doctorate. 00:16:06.857 --> 00:16:34.427 And I have always wanted to have a doctorate and um, and that's something while I am completely frustrated and annoyed at the design of the system and how difficult and opaque and nonsensical it is, I am highly motivated to get it done and, and it is going to be accomplished sheer force of will because my motivation. 00:16:34.832 --> 00:16:35.732 Is that high. 00:16:35.732 --> 00:16:46.772 But it's not just intrinsic motivation because I've attached a deeper meaning to it that I would say a deeper spiritual meaning for why I am actually doing this. 00:16:46.772 --> 00:16:57.242 And that a key piece of understanding that you can do incredibly difficult things that you don't even believe that you can do when it is necessary. 00:16:57.512 --> 00:17:03.872 And, and if your own, uh, integrity and identity, um. 00:17:04.742 --> 00:17:07.142 tied up in doing that thing that is necessary. 00:17:07.172 --> 00:17:12.872 Even when you don't want to, even when you're uncomfortable, then you're going to have the strength to continue to do it. 00:17:13.352 --> 00:17:29.012 And, and I love what you said about how we give them an easy out that it's for the grade and, unfortunately like that is a lot of what it is because that's the, the power, the carrot that the teacher has. 00:17:30.407 --> 00:17:31.817 It doesn't have to be that way. 00:17:31.937 --> 00:17:38.627 And a teacher can say things like, you want to get an A, here's all that you have to do. 00:17:38.837 --> 00:17:40.967 And it's very, very straightforward. 00:17:41.237 --> 00:17:49.577 Not necessarily easy, but everybody knows the grades are made up and, and no matter what class you're in, the grades are made up. 00:17:49.577 --> 00:17:58.097 And so by understanding that and recognizing it from the beginning, you can say, as the teacher, here's how we're going to do this, and. 00:17:58.442 --> 00:18:05.702 And get some buy-in, some motivation, some engagement from the students in doing all of those things. 00:18:05.702 --> 00:18:15.662 And that's, that's a, think, a piece of low hanging fruit that most teachers, I think are afraid to actually say out loud. 00:18:16.367 --> 00:18:19.427 Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll add a bit of, of nuance to that as well. 00:18:19.427 --> 00:18:20.297 I, I agree. 00:18:20.297 --> 00:18:26.352 But I talk a bit about better versus different as these, these two kind of. 00:18:27.122 --> 00:18:33.182 Destinations better being, more incremental shifts, different being larger architectural changes. 00:18:33.182 --> 00:18:45.452 And I think one of the, um, problems with incremental changes kind of trying to kind of tweak and make things better is that you, you end up getting a lot of what I call false fails. 00:18:45.752 --> 00:18:50.882 So basically good ideas which are implemented into, uh. 00:18:51.302 --> 00:18:53.672 System architectures that reject them. 00:18:53.822 --> 00:18:55.922 Uh, because systems are very complex. 00:18:55.922 --> 00:18:57.752 They have a lot of interconnected parts. 00:18:57.752 --> 00:19:18.872 This part's pulling on this part, um, in a, a false fail I've seen a lot in schools is when schools decide to take a bold stance on reducing the importance of grades without making any other structural or pedagogical changes, uh, to the rest of what they're doing. 00:19:18.872 --> 00:19:19.997 And so you've removed this. 00:19:20.657 --> 00:19:23.297 Very important, extrinsic motivator. 00:19:23.807 --> 00:19:36.887 Uh, but we haven't replaced that with kids doing like authentic contribution, valuable work with authentic audiences, something to fill that motivational, um, void if you will. 00:19:37.097 --> 00:19:40.787 So I've seen that play out a, a few times in, in different school settings. 00:19:40.787 --> 00:19:49.877 So I think we, that's why understanding kind of the overall system architecture is so important because that gives. 00:19:50.492 --> 00:19:55.202 Uh, so many people, ammunition to never make a change ever again, right? 00:19:55.532 --> 00:20:03.002 You're like, and it's a great idea, and it's backed up with evidence and it's totally valid and it flops really hard. 00:20:03.452 --> 00:20:07.052 Um, so we need to be careful about the types of changes that we make. 00:20:08.762 --> 00:20:21.662 And part of the issue there is seeing the failure as the be all and end all right, and, and not recognizing also all the lessons that were learned through that process of whatever you were doing. 00:20:21.692 --> 00:20:28.982 Because even if that's what you did, like let's say you just said, okay, grades no longer matter and. 00:20:29.957 --> 00:20:30.977 We're not doing anything. 00:20:31.127 --> 00:20:32.207 We're not changing anything else. 00:20:32.207 --> 00:20:33.377 We're just saying grades don't matter. 00:20:33.377 --> 00:20:35.387 Like that would be a ter terrible idea. 00:20:36.407 --> 00:20:38.027 schools have done something similar to that. 00:20:38.267 --> 00:20:39.797 You do have to put something else in there. 00:20:39.797 --> 00:20:44.537 But even if that does fail, then you still have lessons that you can learn from that. 00:20:44.597 --> 00:20:55.967 And that's part of designing your school appropriately is saying there's, there's no such thing as a failure, uh, for students or for us in things we're doing. 00:20:56.357 --> 00:21:00.977 Because, uh, it is that cliche thing, the first attempt in learning, right? 00:21:00.977 --> 00:21:09.227 And, and if you see it as that way, and this is part of the architecture problem, is that schools are not actually places of learning, even though they should be. 00:21:09.887 --> 00:21:16.127 But if they were, then we would see everything that we're doing as an opportunity to learn and improve and grow. 00:21:16.427 --> 00:21:18.197 And we just don't see it that way. 00:21:18.947 --> 00:21:24.287 But I want to go back to something that you said, um, 'cause you, you started saying like. 00:21:24.647 --> 00:21:28.667 Make these changes without making structural, uh, adjustments. 00:21:28.907 --> 00:21:40.967 So how can somebody look at their school and start to see what the architecture is of it and say, this is, this is why something would, would not be successful. 00:21:41.267 --> 00:21:45.797 How do you start down this path of, 'cause you really have to look at it differently, right? 00:21:46.037 --> 00:21:50.447 So how do you go down this path of, of looking at it differently than how we've always looked at it? 00:21:50.537 --> 00:21:52.607 What's your advice to someone who's new to this? 00:21:53.412 --> 00:21:54.072 Yeah. 00:21:54.132 --> 00:21:54.732 Um. 00:21:55.907 --> 00:21:57.167 So I'll start with two points. 00:21:57.197 --> 00:22:04.697 I'll talk a bit about some of the design principles that I think help to, to guide thinking. 00:22:05.177 --> 00:22:19.667 Uh, and then I'll also give some more granular examples of good architectures that already exist in schools, because even within a single school, there's a lot of variety of architecture and some of that architecture is actually. 00:22:20.447 --> 00:22:21.467 Quite good for learning. 00:22:21.917 --> 00:22:30.737 Um, so a few design principles that I think can guide architectures in a good direction are, um, authenticity. 00:22:30.887 --> 00:22:42.047 So basically having, um, learning in con authentic contexts, authentic processes, so students, um, doing, uh, kind of. 00:22:43.097 --> 00:22:48.407 I forget the book, A different book that I read called like the, the whole game at the junior level. 00:22:48.887 --> 00:22:58.517 Um, and this is kind of like if you have a basketball analogy, um, like when eight year olds play basketball, they still play. 00:22:59.222 --> 00:23:01.862 The full game at a smaller level. 00:23:01.922 --> 00:23:02.312 Right. 00:23:02.642 --> 00:23:04.772 Um, and that's what makes it engaging for them. 00:23:05.042 --> 00:23:17.972 But if you look at actually how maybe a science or humanities class is run, um, the sporting equivalent would be, we do drills forever in never play the game. 00:23:17.972 --> 00:23:18.272 Right? 00:23:18.452 --> 00:23:21.632 So thinking like, what do actual scientists do? 00:23:21.632 --> 00:23:23.252 Why are they, um. 00:23:23.837 --> 00:23:32.297 Investigating different problems, how are they contributing to society and letting students play that full game at a smaller, more simplified level. 00:23:32.837 --> 00:23:34.097 Um, so often, yeah. 00:23:34.097 --> 00:23:34.637 Sorry, go ahead. 00:23:34.727 --> 00:23:50.117 here real quick because I was talking to some guys yesterday about, um, training people in a different way for, for a high level job that basically requires a PhD and I, and I asked, why don't you just. 00:23:51.092 --> 00:23:57.302 Bring that person on and start training them to have a PhD level over time. 00:23:57.572 --> 00:24:08.267 You're sending them away to train at a university for eight years to get this PhD. Bas bachelor's and PhD. almost said bastards. 00:24:08.747 --> 00:24:09.137 That's funny. 00:24:11.537 --> 00:24:12.737 I was a little Freudian slip. 00:24:12.762 --> 00:24:13.832 Yeah, that's what I was thinking. 00:24:14.477 --> 00:24:35.237 getting, getting a, a bachelor's and a PhD and you're sending them out to, to get this knowledge, why don't you just bring them on and train them in this way right outta high school and say, Hey, we're gonna invest in you and have you work here, and maybe you're going to be doing some lower level stuff, but we want you to have this PhD level. 00:24:35.642 --> 00:24:41.912 Uh, education and, and then just give that, like, work with the university if you have to. 00:24:42.242 --> 00:24:47.042 But, but give them that education on the job because that's what they're doing anyway. 00:24:47.252 --> 00:24:54.002 So part of that is there's a filtering mechanism with the going to a university and taking the program there. 00:24:54.002 --> 00:24:56.672 And, and you can have some, some information about that. 00:24:56.672 --> 00:25:01.922 But really they're gonna be, have to be trained on the job when they come back to the company. 00:25:02.642 --> 00:25:12.722 So why not just if you, if you're investing in these people for that long anyway and you're waiting for these people to come that long anyway, why not have them come? 00:25:13.592 --> 00:25:16.352 then it changes the dynamic of what they're learning. 00:25:16.352 --> 00:25:26.252 Because when you say, like the thing we were talking about is organic chemistry, you have to learn organic chemistry because we are doing an experiment. 00:25:27.182 --> 00:25:29.342 Developing something tomorrow. 00:25:29.762 --> 00:25:32.732 You have to go home and learn all that stuff to make sure that you're ready. 00:25:33.092 --> 00:25:39.632 And it's not just for tomorrow, but for, you know, here's, here's how we're designing this study. 00:25:40.382 --> 00:25:42.002 Here's how we're setting up this experiment. 00:25:42.212 --> 00:25:47.612 You have to go home and understand all those things leading up to that, and that it's not just about. 00:25:48.452 --> 00:26:00.237 know, having that information there, but you have to learn it and learning it in the moment where it actually is going to matter is much different than learning it in a textbook where you're not sure if you'll ever use this in the future. 00:26:00.962 --> 00:26:06.872 So that piece of like real, uh, I think the word uses authentic learning. 00:26:07.652 --> 00:26:12.482 really does matter and there's no reason why you couldn't do that. 00:26:12.797 --> 00:26:20.432 It, it would definitely be possible, but you would have to change your approach about how you look at educating your future workforce. 00:26:20.822 --> 00:26:22.922 But that can work across all sectors also. 00:26:23.282 --> 00:26:25.792 Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of that, that thinking. 00:26:25.847 --> 00:26:28.787 It can go down into the K through 12 space as well. 00:26:28.787 --> 00:26:42.767 I think we, we divorce kids from the quote unquote real world, um, artificially, and we tell them to wait until they graduate university to do anything of value in the world. 00:26:43.217 --> 00:26:44.132 Um, and that's 00:26:44.472 --> 00:26:45.082 Maddening. 00:26:45.377 --> 00:26:47.777 a little bit insane, uh, because. 00:26:48.242 --> 00:26:52.532 Kids at most ages are very capable, if motivated and engaged. 00:26:52.862 --> 00:26:55.202 Um, they might be tackling smaller problems. 00:26:55.202 --> 00:27:04.712 But, um, like imagine if your job had no purpose beyond, uh, just getting to some, some next rung. 00:27:05.162 --> 00:27:07.622 Um, it's not a motivating stance. 00:27:07.892 --> 00:27:11.792 Um, and not letting kids make authentic contributions is. 00:27:11.792 --> 00:27:16.922 Is, uh, really, really problematic for, from a motivational standpoint. 00:27:17.342 --> 00:27:25.772 Um, because people, even if the contribution is like cleaning the classroom at the end of the day, like that is a, a valuable contribution. 00:27:25.772 --> 00:27:28.862 More people can see, like their efforts are, um. 00:27:30.212 --> 00:27:31.982 Helping the community, right? 00:27:32.282 --> 00:27:41.822 Um, it doesn't have to be these grandiose projects that people propose like, we're gonna, um, solve the, the water scarcity problem in like Saharan Africa. 00:27:41.942 --> 00:27:45.482 Um, you're probably not, you have no understanding of that context. 00:27:45.902 --> 00:27:48.422 Um, it can be much smaller. 00:27:48.722 --> 00:27:52.442 Um, one of the other principles is mutuality. 00:27:52.802 --> 00:27:54.217 So this idea that we are. 00:27:55.007 --> 00:27:55.547 Connected. 00:27:55.547 --> 00:27:58.727 So this is kind of an an architecture design principle. 00:27:59.027 --> 00:28:02.867 Um, that your actions matter towards my actions. 00:28:02.867 --> 00:28:11.267 And I think sometimes we, we have collaborative projects in schools which actually don't force this sense of mutuality, right? 00:28:11.267 --> 00:28:12.677 They don't have to collaborate. 00:28:12.707 --> 00:28:15.407 They can easily do it totally independently. 00:28:15.407 --> 00:28:17.387 Each or one person can do the whole thing. 00:28:17.777 --> 00:28:21.467 Um, and there's really good, um, learning. 00:28:22.292 --> 00:28:23.342 Uh, experience design. 00:28:23.342 --> 00:28:27.422 I'll give you a few examples which, which force this sense of mutuality. 00:28:27.422 --> 00:28:33.332 So one that I've seen at my school, we run a, a school newspaper as an elective class. 00:28:33.932 --> 00:28:43.262 Um, and it's run by an amazing teacher then here, uh, ages, and she splits the class into different roles. 00:28:43.322 --> 00:28:44.372 So you have things like. 00:28:44.837 --> 00:28:50.117 Editors and people responsible for different sections and graphic design and photojournalist. 00:28:50.507 --> 00:29:03.617 Um, and by making them interdependent on one another and making them all care about this authentic real output, which gets published and has a real readership, it has staff read it, parents read it. 00:29:03.617 --> 00:29:03.677 Um. 00:29:04.787 --> 00:29:16.367 Um, they start holding each other accountable and instead of the, the teacher, um, yelling at kids who haven't done their work, it's students yelling at each other, uh, for missing deadlines. 00:29:16.367 --> 00:29:21.737 So it's, it's a small tweak, right, in how you design that, that learning environment. 00:29:21.767 --> 00:29:25.637 And there's reasons why it's a difficult week, right? 00:29:25.637 --> 00:29:31.637 Because like from an assessment perspective, like how do you know exactly what one person did and what another did? 00:29:31.637 --> 00:29:33.947 And if they're not having the exact. 00:29:34.577 --> 00:29:46.847 Same experience, then how are we assessing them, uh, against similar criteria and kind of some of these rigid structures that, um, are a little bit imagined in some ways, which, which have us trapped. 00:29:47.327 --> 00:29:50.057 Um, but it's, it's a powerful shift. 00:29:50.327 --> 00:29:50.627 Um. 00:29:52.427 --> 00:30:01.817 Well, and and the amazing thing about that example is that it really does get to the kids having ownership of something also. 00:30:01.817 --> 00:30:06.077 And that's really what the authenticity is about, is having ownership for something. 00:30:06.077 --> 00:30:13.712 Because of the things that I always say is if the teacher is the only audience, then it's meaningless except for the grade. 00:30:14.447 --> 00:30:28.967 But if there's any other audience, like even if it is, need to write a letter to your parent and you know, once you finish it, take a picture of it and submit that, then it's not about you. 00:30:29.417 --> 00:30:38.297 Like, it's not about you doing that for the grade, it's about you writing the parent a letter and, and there's a different thing there. 00:30:38.417 --> 00:30:41.477 And what that allows is for this flexibility of. 00:30:42.632 --> 00:30:49.172 Of grading criteria and options and what that looks like, uh, that you may see things that you haven't even taught. 00:30:49.292 --> 00:31:08.972 You know, for example, a kid could use ass simile in there, uh, in that letter, that that helps you understand that they get that idea of what ass simile is, and then you don't, you now know that they understand the thing that you're trying to teach, and you can see the errors that they make in spelling and grammar and all that kind of stuff. 00:31:09.332 --> 00:31:23.402 And those kinds of things become much more valuable and valuable to the student also, that they have an opportunity to write a large to their parents, which some of them likely have never done, and others that might be a regular thing. 00:31:23.432 --> 00:31:31.652 And so they use something that they've written recently and, and that, and that's another thing is there's no problem in using. 00:31:32.072 --> 00:31:37.712 Other evidences for what you're learning that are not the direct explicit assignment. 00:31:37.712 --> 00:31:40.232 So I love that school newspaper example. 00:31:40.232 --> 00:31:54.157 And that's something that, that I think every school should have a newspaper and that it should be a, a, a process that is run throughout the entire school so that everybody has an opportunity to write for it or contribute to it. 00:31:55.127 --> 00:31:55.787 some way. 00:31:55.787 --> 00:32:05.987 And yes, it can be one class as an elective, but there are ways to open it up and include student writing in that, and student other creations in that as well. 00:32:06.227 --> 00:32:10.337 Just like every school should have a YouTube channel and every school should have a social media account. 00:32:10.487 --> 00:32:15.947 And those provide lots of opportunities for students to be engaged and do the, the things that they need to. 00:32:15.947 --> 00:32:16.547 Excuse me. 00:32:17.620 --> 00:32:21.580 so there, there's one other design principle that you mentioned, which is complexity. 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:22.810 Tell me about that one. 00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:28.600 Yeah, complexity, probably the, the most difficult one to conceptualize and write about. 00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:34.690 Um, obviously a, a hybrid between simple and complex. 00:32:34.810 --> 00:32:46.450 Um, the idea is how do you design systems and architectures, which are themselves simple, but are able to kind of. 00:32:47.035 --> 00:32:50.425 Bend and handle a complex reality. 00:32:50.965 --> 00:32:56.755 Um, I'll give you my favorite example to help clarify what is a very, uh, confusing concept. 00:32:57.085 --> 00:33:14.815 So if you, A great example of simple complexity is actually the English alphabet, um, 26 letters, which can be stacked and combined in different ways to represent over 180,000 different objects. 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:27.490 Feelings, conditions, um, compare that to something like, uh, traditional or, uh, Mandarin Chinese, where it's not a very simplex system. 00:33:27.490 --> 00:33:35.020 It's more complexity, matching complexity where people have to memorize tens of thousands of. 00:33:35.560 --> 00:33:42.670 Distinct characters, which each map to something else, there are patterns within it, which makes it a little bit simpler. 00:33:42.970 --> 00:33:46.840 Um, but as a system it's much more complex. 00:33:46.840 --> 00:33:58.000 So when you're, um, designing system architectures, it's something you really have to keep in mind because everyone has a very limited, um, mental capacity. 00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:58.180 Right. 00:33:58.360 --> 00:33:58.960 We can't. 00:33:59.380 --> 00:34:01.420 To handle that much change. 00:34:01.420 --> 00:34:03.850 We can't handle that many, um, new things. 00:34:04.150 --> 00:34:11.980 Uh, a great example of this, I don't know if you've heard of, uh, avenues World Schools, um, has a lot of campuses around the world. 00:34:11.980 --> 00:34:14.710 They have an online school, um, give them a shout out. 00:34:14.715 --> 00:34:23.410 They, they have what they call the avenues, world elements, so it looks like a periodic table of elements, but it has basically. 00:34:23.995 --> 00:34:27.145 Around 50 things that they've defined. 00:34:27.145 --> 00:34:31.105 These are outcomes that they want, um, students to have. 00:34:31.105 --> 00:34:38.215 Could be more like character or skill sets, like persistence, creativity, critical thinking could be big conceptual understandings. 00:34:38.545 --> 00:34:50.075 Um, and what they're starting to do with that is that the older years letting students define their own projects and learning experiences as long as they are, um, grounded in those elements. 00:34:50.445 --> 00:35:02.115 So the student would have to, um, pitch their project and justify them in terms of the elements, and they've built a shared understanding of those elements, what success in each element looks like. 00:35:02.505 --> 00:35:10.875 Um, so that's an example of a reasonably simple system able to support almost an infinite number of learning experiences. 00:35:13.390 --> 00:35:14.380 I love that. 00:35:14.380 --> 00:35:18.520 And that was the avenue is something that I just recently learned about. 00:35:18.520 --> 00:35:25.120 I don't even remember where, but I remember seeing, um, that and thinking, oh, that's a good way to. 00:35:25.855 --> 00:35:26.605 To bring that in. 00:35:26.605 --> 00:35:30.355 Really, really fascinating, um, stuff that they're doing. 00:35:30.355 --> 00:35:32.575 So definitely suggest checking that out. 00:35:32.785 --> 00:35:39.505 Uh, one of the things that I talk about all the time is asking the question, can we make this more simple? 00:35:39.775 --> 00:35:42.955 Can we make this more clear and more basic? 00:35:42.985 --> 00:35:50.095 And, and by doing that, you have to have the flexibility to go into complex arena. 00:35:50.095 --> 00:35:54.775 But at the very basic level, as you're just starting, it has to be. 00:35:55.495 --> 00:35:56.005 Simple. 00:35:56.005 --> 00:36:01.075 And you mentioned the idea of, uh, playing a basketball game, playing the, the whole game at a junior level. 00:36:02.155 --> 00:36:09.685 And, and that looks different when the kids are feet tall, but they're still shooting at a basket. 00:36:09.685 --> 00:36:11.485 That means the basket's lower in soccer. 00:36:11.485 --> 00:36:16.525 That means the, the goals or the field is, is smaller and they're not running quite as far. 00:36:16.525 --> 00:36:17.605 And the coach is out there. 00:36:18.715 --> 00:36:23.425 But they're still playing the whole game and they're doing the whole thing and, and they're just doing the simple parts of it. 00:36:23.425 --> 00:36:25.645 So they're not designing plays just yet. 00:36:25.975 --> 00:36:29.245 It's basically everybody just goes for the ball and tries to get the ball and the goal. 00:36:29.575 --> 00:36:37.015 And, and that's a totally fine approach to have, but it allows for it to become more complex as time goes on. 00:36:37.315 --> 00:36:42.925 And, and as much as possible, we need to bring those systems in, especially, you know, talking about student behavior. 00:36:42.925 --> 00:36:46.615 Also, my discipline philosophy was. 00:36:47.305 --> 00:36:53.755 What is the smallest thing that I can possibly do to get this kid to change their behavior and make the right choices in the future? 00:36:54.745 --> 00:37:03.415 if I have to do some big complex thing to make it happen, then that's just gonna be a ton more work on my part. 00:37:03.685 --> 00:37:11.065 The kid's not going to be bought into it, but if I can, if I can have a look and look at the kid and they change their behavior. 00:37:11.395 --> 00:37:13.585 Then that's really powerful. 00:37:13.645 --> 00:37:14.425 That's great. 00:37:14.455 --> 00:37:17.665 So that look is enough to get them to change their behavior. 00:37:18.085 --> 00:37:25.585 But also if I just stop at that simple thing, then they may have changed their behavior because I gave the look, but they don't know why they did it. 00:37:25.585 --> 00:37:31.165 So a, a more complex conversation needs to happen and that's an essential part of it. 00:37:31.165 --> 00:37:33.085 So I love the complexity idea. 00:37:33.085 --> 00:37:35.155 I think that's, that's really good. 00:37:35.215 --> 00:37:36.745 Um, anything else you want to 00:37:36.830 --> 00:37:37.280 Um. 00:37:37.375 --> 00:37:38.245 that complexity? 00:37:38.935 --> 00:37:47.425 Yeah, I mean, just one thing came to mind when you were talking about the, the soccer example and, and I think a valuable question for every school to ask themselves. 00:37:47.425 --> 00:37:53.875 This is like very foundational is what comes first, passion or competence, right? 00:37:54.265 --> 00:37:59.395 I think we default to designing for competence. 00:37:59.875 --> 00:38:05.245 Um, and then we think if we hammer kids and they get competent enough, then maybe. 00:38:05.665 --> 00:38:10.435 Um, they will become passionate later and that will be the field that they enter. 00:38:10.885 --> 00:38:28.495 Um, but I would argue more likely, um, for people who are very high performers in a given field, it's that passion comes first and then competence follows, um, the kind of in like an intertwined dance as they move up and down. 00:38:28.825 --> 00:38:34.135 Um, but I think it's, it's a valuable, really foundational assumption to, to question. 00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:38.260 Well, and the other part of that, Adrian, is that. 00:38:38.680 --> 00:38:42.550 We can't, uh, teach passion, right? 00:38:42.550 --> 00:38:45.700 We can't have that one of our curricular measures. 00:38:45.700 --> 00:38:49.180 We can't measure that as easy as we can competence. 00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:54.910 And so we go towards the easier thing, not necessarily the more simple thing. 00:38:55.690 --> 00:39:02.920 And I, I believe that it's actually a combination of passion and competence, which as you mentioned, they intertwine later. 00:39:03.040 --> 00:39:10.660 And I don't know that you can really say one comes first over the other, but you know what helps you be really passionate about something. 00:39:11.125 --> 00:39:12.325 Being excellent at it. 00:39:12.685 --> 00:39:14.125 Like that certainly helps. 00:39:14.455 --> 00:39:19.405 You know what really helps you being great at something, being passionate about it because you care more. 00:39:19.465 --> 00:39:28.315 And so like, they're very hard to, to disentangle from each other, but they're so important to ask that question. 00:39:28.645 --> 00:39:30.535 I, that's what I think the key is. 00:39:30.665 --> 00:39:35.305 Yeah, but, but I mean, just if I can like, think about the, the curricular. 00:39:35.395 --> 00:39:36.055 I agree completely. 00:39:36.055 --> 00:39:44.995 Think about the curricular design, um, of most schools, this kind of mile wide inch deep, um, you're. 00:39:45.595 --> 00:39:50.095 You're keeping students in a perpetual, novice stage. 00:39:50.575 --> 00:39:50.935 Right. 00:39:51.235 --> 00:39:56.245 But like everything is new all the time instead of going deep. 00:39:56.245 --> 00:40:09.955 And so you're not only is it not set up great for passion to develop because of reasons of like, autonomy and choice, um, it's also not set up very well for competence to develop, um, which is, uh, I agree. 00:40:09.955 --> 00:40:11.275 Like an important ingredient. 00:40:11.275 --> 00:40:11.575 Right. 00:40:12.370 --> 00:40:13.750 Well, and that was the point 00:40:13.810 --> 00:40:14.100 Okay. 00:40:14.380 --> 00:40:21.640 that I was getting to is that if somebody really wants to go deep into, for example, a math. 00:40:22.450 --> 00:40:39.040 Before they get to whatever grade level that is offered at, then they, there should be flexibility for them to get there, so often there's not, you know, um, algebra in eighth grade or seventh grade is one of those things. 00:40:39.040 --> 00:40:43.720 There are a lot of math teachers who are like, it's just not possible for kids to do algebra in seventh grade. 00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:46.540 it's like, we all know that's baloney. 00:40:47.020 --> 00:40:47.800 And yet. 00:40:48.520 --> 00:40:56.170 It's just more difficult to have an algebra class with seventh graders in it than it is to only have eighth grade algebra classes. 00:40:56.170 --> 00:41:01.900 And, and that's really what it comes down to, that it's not that it's impossible, it's just that. 00:41:02.305 --> 00:41:10.765 It's more convenient and easier and better for the schedule and better for the teacher's classrooms and all that to have just one group of kids in there. 00:41:10.765 --> 00:41:15.685 But everybody develops in every way at different stages. 00:41:16.165 --> 00:41:29.395 And so if a kid has a, a proclivity towards something, then there should be flexibility to allow that and not having to wait to get to something until you are a certain age. 00:41:29.755 --> 00:41:32.425 Even if you are ready to handle it much earlier. 00:41:32.425 --> 00:41:39.565 For example, when I was a second year teacher, I had a student named Kayla Armstrong in my class, and she was amazing. 00:41:39.565 --> 00:41:41.425 She's, uh, an adult now. 00:41:41.425 --> 00:41:42.565 I wish I knew where she was. 00:41:42.565 --> 00:41:46.255 I say her name so that she can say, Hey, this is where I'm at if she ever hears this. 00:41:46.255 --> 00:41:55.105 But, um, but Kayla was awesome and she, she was super smart and super ready for way more than I could teach her in school. 00:41:55.105 --> 00:41:57.895 And so I said, look, I don't have. 00:41:58.390 --> 00:42:04.570 Like, I don't have a curriculum to teach you what you really need to know, but I know that you're already interested in Victorian literature. 00:42:04.810 --> 00:42:10.090 So you choose a way that you want to demonstrate that you are learning and growing yourself this year. 00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:23.020 And as she put together her this, this whole project, she read, um, uh, uh, Emily Bronte and Jane Airbooks and talked about how they related to each other and how they were connected and all this kind of stuff. 00:42:23.020 --> 00:42:25.480 And it was, was, it was great. 00:42:25.600 --> 00:42:27.190 Um, and I was really. 00:42:27.610 --> 00:42:37.300 Impressed with what she was doing, uh, because she understood it well enough that she didn't have to wait for me, to be ready to teach her those things. 00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:40.210 She went out and did those, did those herself. 00:42:40.240 --> 00:42:49.720 And, and that is an important, um, I think that I said Jane Eyre and Emily Bronte, but Jane Eyre is a book written by Emily Bronte, so I 00:42:50.045 --> 00:42:50.905 That's, it's all right. 00:42:50.905 --> 00:42:53.700 I'm, I'm, I'm not an English major, so I'm not gonna catch that. 00:42:54.030 --> 00:42:54.900 Um, I mean. 00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:55.810 Jane Austin. 00:42:55.810 --> 00:42:56.440 Excuse me. 00:42:56.470 --> 00:42:58.330 So I, I apologize. 00:42:58.330 --> 00:42:59.500 Wanna make sure I got that right. 00:42:59.500 --> 00:43:00.100 Jane Austin. 00:43:00.100 --> 00:43:00.790 Not Jane Eyre. 00:43:00.850 --> 00:43:01.990 Jane Eyre is the book. 00:43:02.140 --> 00:43:03.520 Jane Austen is the author. 00:43:03.655 --> 00:43:16.285 Yeah, I mean, I mean, you, you touched on scheduling whi, which I, I do a lot of work with in my, my current role, and I'm sure a lot of principals, uh, listen to a podcast called The Transformative Principal. 00:43:16.645 --> 00:43:26.065 Um, and a lot of them, uh, are also heavily involved in scheduling, and I think it's a really important leverage point. 00:43:26.065 --> 00:43:27.130 And it says a lot about. 00:43:27.895 --> 00:43:30.745 What you value and what's possible within your school. 00:43:30.835 --> 00:43:43.165 I spent hundreds of hours last year reworking our, um, grade six through eight programs so that we can have what we now call interdisciplinary learning blocks. 00:43:43.165 --> 00:43:44.305 So basically a very. 00:43:44.995 --> 00:44:02.545 Structured, consistent, um, block of classes where different subjects can come together, um, at different times if they want to flexibly, um, to give those different like cross-disciplinary experiences and, and why I think that's important. 00:44:02.755 --> 00:44:05.425 And everyone's like, well, why do you like interdisciplinary learning so much? 00:44:05.695 --> 00:44:07.795 Um, and it's actually because. 00:44:08.380 --> 00:44:16.990 I like project based learning and because really good projects don't neatly fit into disciplines. 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:23.920 Um, and what happens and what I've seen happen year after year is a teacher will have an amazing idea for a project. 00:44:25.060 --> 00:44:38.260 But there's no structure that allows them to blend disciplines, and they can't justify the amount of time it will take to do the project because maybe only like 30% of it is science. 00:44:38.710 --> 00:44:49.390 And then a lot of it is like geopolitics and then it's like, uh, humanities or MA math or um, any blend of things. 00:44:49.390 --> 00:44:49.690 Right? 00:44:49.720 --> 00:44:51.010 And so what happens is. 00:44:51.505 --> 00:45:00.895 It just gets tossed out because, because you can't justify the, the time commitment that it would take, um, to do justice within your discipline. 00:45:01.255 --> 00:45:03.595 Um, so scheduling is, is big. 00:45:03.595 --> 00:45:05.035 It's a, it's a big lever. 00:45:05.035 --> 00:45:10.015 It's one of those architectures which always needs to be kind of revisited. 00:45:11.455 --> 00:45:29.245 Yeah, I, I did some cool things with, uh, scheduling when I was a principal and I encouraged people to go on my, uh, on my, on Transformative Principal dot org and search for Synergy and RTI, episode 100, whatever that one was. 00:45:29.395 --> 00:45:29.785 Uh. 00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:32.170 scheduling, I think is what it is. 00:45:32.170 --> 00:45:52.420 But, um, look those two up because we did amazing, awesome things with our schedule that, uh, to exactly what you're saying, we took, when teachers had English class or math class, felt like all they could do was the, the, uh, standards assigned to that class. 00:45:52.540 --> 00:45:54.460 And so when we took that away from them. 00:45:55.255 --> 00:46:01.645 It took off the pressure, but we had to take it away from 'em because if they were in their math classroom, they had to do math. 00:46:01.885 --> 00:46:03.895 So we created the Synergy time. 00:46:03.955 --> 00:46:07.285 That was an hour and a half, twice a week, where they didn't have 00:46:07.715 --> 00:46:07.935 Mm. 00:46:08.035 --> 00:46:13.135 content area connected with it because it was Synergy and so, which was just a name we made up. 00:46:13.465 --> 00:46:22.345 And then during that time, they could do whatever they needed to, to meet the needs of their kids based on the, the projects that they were interested in, the things they were doing, and. 00:46:23.020 --> 00:46:26.950 became a really powerful time where kids learned way more than they ever would have in 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:27.250 Hmm. 00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:30.010 classes, which again, look for synergy. 00:46:30.010 --> 00:46:31.695 I've got a bunch of podcasts about it, and it was. 00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:32.860 Amazing. 00:46:32.860 --> 00:46:37.450 So my final question for you, Adrian, is, and we didn't get to everything by the way. 00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:46.780 Um, so definitely go check out his book, uh, which is called, uh, designing Different, uh, because, uh, you gotta check it out. 00:46:46.780 --> 00:46:47.200 It's good. 00:46:47.500 --> 00:46:48.790 Uh, you should definitely read it. 00:46:49.120 --> 00:46:55.840 Um, my last question is, what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a Transformative leader like you? 00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:02.025 One thing, I'm sure you'll edit out this long pause. 00:47:03.385 --> 00:47:04.375 No, I won't. 00:47:04.510 --> 00:47:05.260 Just kidding. 00:47:05.365 --> 00:47:07.375 your answer better be simple, 00:47:07.870 --> 00:47:08.110 Yeah. 00:47:08.110 --> 00:47:08.710 It better be 00:47:08.845 --> 00:47:09.625 simplex. 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:10.690 simplex. 00:47:11.230 --> 00:47:11.290 Um. 00:47:12.910 --> 00:47:22.750 I think there's, there's two main levers that, and you've touched on both of them anecdotally. 00:47:23.170 --> 00:47:23.740 Um, one is. 00:47:26.305 --> 00:47:27.055 Audience. 00:47:27.205 --> 00:47:28.555 So expanding audience. 00:47:28.555 --> 00:47:42.565 I think making a decision this week, that next year we're gonna have, say, two official public exhibitions of student work, where community gonna come in, students are gonna showcase work. 00:47:42.955 --> 00:47:48.085 Um, that can be really Transformative for the entire community. 00:47:48.685 --> 00:47:52.015 And the other thing, um, which you touched on. 00:47:52.255 --> 00:47:53.035 I just said one 00:47:53.305 --> 00:47:53.875 Oh, sorry. 00:47:53.965 --> 00:47:54.385 Okay. 00:47:54.595 --> 00:47:55.165 so 00:47:55.795 --> 00:47:56.485 That's one thing. 00:47:56.515 --> 00:47:57.955 you do a a bonus second 00:47:58.135 --> 00:47:59.065 Okay, perfect. 00:47:59.125 --> 00:48:02.845 thing is make a decision that we're gonna have official expositions of student 00:48:03.175 --> 00:48:03.565 Correct. 00:48:03.565 --> 00:48:04.015 Yeah. 00:48:04.075 --> 00:48:14.335 In the, in the second is, uh, creating what I call like sandboxes or spaces of possibility, um, similar to that hour and a half, twice a week that you talked about. 00:48:14.695 --> 00:48:20.665 Um, at my school we have, uh, something I've designed called Project Week, which is a collapse week. 00:48:21.145 --> 00:48:32.665 At the end of the year, um, very last week of school, report cards are in, uh, normally the year is just dying a slow, slow death, um, into the summer. 00:48:32.665 --> 00:48:34.525 So we've recaptured that time. 00:48:34.825 --> 00:48:39.925 Kids are off timetable, they're in 30 plus different projects, entrepreneurial stuff. 00:48:40.285 --> 00:48:42.445 Um, and it's a place for us to test. 00:48:43.435 --> 00:48:51.235 Different architectures in a really low stakes environment where teachers don't feel pressure to like perform or hit outcomes. 00:48:51.595 --> 00:48:54.175 Um, and every school has a little bit of time like this, right? 00:48:54.175 --> 00:48:56.995 It's not, uh, it's not go, go, go all the time. 00:48:56.995 --> 00:49:04.435 So kind of think of where that low impact time is and try to make that your, your testing ground would be one of my 00:49:04.510 --> 00:49:04.870 Uh, 00:49:05.035 --> 00:49:05.755 tips. 00:49:06.250 --> 00:49:06.910 Great. 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:14.560 We didn't even get into the power of starting school appropriately and designing that experience for the first week of school. 00:49:15.730 --> 00:49:19.240 of doing that for the last week of school and making sure that. 00:49:19.930 --> 00:49:23.410 All of the time you're spending in school is valuable and worthwhile. 00:49:23.410 --> 00:49:26.200 So, uh, there's so much more that we could talk about there. 00:49:26.230 --> 00:49:27.940 Maybe I'll have to have you back on again. 00:49:27.970 --> 00:49:29.200 Adrian, this is great. 00:49:29.560 --> 00:49:33.430 I wanna remind everybody to check out the, uh, the book Designing Different. 00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:40.420 There's a link to it in the show notes at Transformative principle.org and, uh, any other place people should go to follow you, Adrian. 00:49:40.990 --> 00:49:44.620 Um, not a big social media person, but you could find me on LinkedIn. 00:49:45.775 --> 00:49:46.405 Excellent. 00:49:46.435 --> 00:49:50.815 We'll put a link to his LinkedIn in the show notes as well at Transformative principle.org. 00:49:51.235 --> 00:49:53.935 Adrian, thank you so much for being part of Transformative principle today. 00:49:53.935 --> 00:49:54.745 It was great to chat with 00:49:54.910 --> 00:49:56.440 Yeah, it's been a really fun conversation. 00:49:56.470 --> 00:49:57.040 Thanks, Jethro. 00:49:57.310 --> 00:49:57.340 I.