It's a joy to be alive. It's good to be glad. Good to survive. It's great to be mad.

Yeah. Welcome, everyone, to CD Esoterik episode four officially, episode four. Really special episode because we actually have our first guest this time around. We hung out a bit together on another session and, yeah, had a good time, so thought that we'd share a real one with with everyone. So we have the pleasure of welcoming none other than Alex Moskos to the show.

Thanks for having me.

Good to see you.

It's been so long.

It's been Yes.

Yeah. Decades. Whole week.

Decades. It's been at least a week Yes. Since the last time we spoke.

But before that, it was A lot. A lot longer.

Yeah. Alex, I mean, you've, you're obviously a man about town in the music, local music scene, but you've also, also were a official CD Esoterik staff.

Yeah. 2002. In the intervening week, I've had time to get those dates corrected. 2002 was a great time for Downtown Montreal. Yeah.

And that block and, yeah, working with Chris and Jacob.

Oh, yeah. So so you were working both Jacob and Chris were there?

Yep. Yeah.

Okay. Was Mark there still there?

Or was

Mark on the scene from Montreal? No.

Mark had stopped working, and then I started working. And then I think I worked just me and Chris for, like, a year or something. Or Yeah. I'm not sure. And then we decided to hire someone, and and we both had Chris, especially, had a really big liking for Alex.

Every time he came to visit us was just always a wonderful time. And and at one point, Chris is like, how about we just hire Alex? He's really he's really great, don't you think? I was like, yeah. He's super cool.

And so then it just kinda happened like that. Yeah. And we're really excited about it.

I was living up up the street, like, not far.

That's right. That's why we were seeing you often. You were kind of like a regular in that sense. Yeah.

And I remember going to the store maybe even before you started working, Jacob. Mhmm. When Chris had just begun to kinda bring music in that wasn't used CDs. And it seemed like he was kinda trying it out. You know?

Mhmm. So they were kind

of And that was But that Mark was there, wasn't he? You hadn't met do you remember?

I've never met Mark, or at least if I did, I do not remember him.

Okay.

Cool. And at that point, Chris was bringing in primarily, like, IBM. Right? Like, it was, like, really

IBM focused.

Few other things. Yeah. But his taste was was broad, but, yeah, he mainly focused on kinda minimal electronic music. Yeah. And I guess he felt like there was a need for that Yeah.

City. You know? Like a place that kinda focused on that. I don't know.

You guys remember the first like, I don't even remember the first time I ever stepped in or even heard of Esoterik. I don't even remember.

Mean That was totally my my question, actually. Alex, what what made you go to Esoterik?

CD store on my

Right.

You know,

I would go down there to buy groceries and stuff.

Right. Right. It's full.

And it was just very curious. And I remember There was one there was a release by flying saucer attack that was not EDM, and I bought that. And I remember there was a band called Stern, which is the two Voigt brothers. Yeah. I believe it was Chris that introduced me to that and was like, this is he was probably just listening to it, and I was like, this is amazing music.

Did you ever hear that way later released? Like, I wanna say, like, maybe just a little bit before the pandemic flying saucer attack that was noisy as hell. No. I should

take that up.

Yeah. It's really incredible. It's, like, not it almost sounds like a different band. It's, like, bordering on, like, Dead Sea or, like, expressway sounding, but it's, like, heavy. It's really, really great record.

Was really surprising.

I have I missed that entirely.

Yeah. It was, like, some live recording that they archival thing that they released really late, but it was yeah. It's great.

Leon, do you remember the first time you were ever there?

I I I was trying to remember, and I actually don't remember the first time, but I went there through word-of-mouth. I think I actually went to was it Argo, the bookstore that was Mhmm. Upstairs? I think I I was going there before even noticing that there was a music store downstairs. But someone told me, yeah, the place under Argo, they have, like, some some neat stuff.

And at that point, I do remember the big, ugly, wooden sign. So it's like forest green with gold inlay with, like, the the oval letters that was in the display window. At that time, it was still that. But I think it was far enough along that it had mostly new music. So I think Chris was already on top of stuff at that point.

Who did the graphic, like, that we use? Like, our our the bag graphic and stuff. I have no idea where that came from.

I don't know either. I Do you

remember why Chris made the there's a funny story about why he started making the bags with the actual logo. Is because before he was using these generic bags that were black with white dots

on them.

Yeah. I remember those. And

he had a customer that came in and was complaining about them because apparently it was the same bags used by, like, one of the porn shops or in the neighborhood. And he was getting called out. He would go on his lunch break to Esoterik and buy records and come back to the office, and people are like, okay. Sure. You got electronic music in there.

I believe you. That

actually explains a lot because, I remember, Chris very reluctantly pulling those bags back out later because

He had to get booba records. Right?

Because the the actual branded bags were exactly 12 by 12 inches.

Yeah. You couldn't put a record in them. Okay.

Put a record in. So so he he reluctantly had to use the the real bags.

Yeah. Oh, wow.

That that explains a lot.

I

one of the things I was thinking about in the in the last week was that I found interesting was just remembering Chris in my time brief time working there, Chris the boards of Canada put out a CD or record. And Chris buying like, I've never seen so many copies of one CD in one place before. First time working in retail music. And sure enough, Concordia students just kind of came through daily multiple times, bought the CD, and I was like, oh, yeah. I guess that's how you stay in business as, you know, it's you gotta pay the rent somehow and selling fifty, seventy five boards of Canada CDs and knowing that that's gonna be the that that's what you got.

You know, he ordered that many, which is interesting.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because it's new to Canada for paying the rent.

Yeah. Also,

the markup wasn't that big because I had worked at HMV, like, for three years before working at Esoterik, and the markups were huge there. It was just, like, the cost versus what they sold. And here, was just surprised how the markup was like $2, sometimes $3.

It was,

you know, just to stay, like, be like, competitive.

Yeah. But Chris Chris really knew what he had the the sense the the business sense.

Like Yeah. Yeah.

He knew what would sell. I mean, we would totally put put put our bets on the wrong horse every time. Yeah. For these DVD BX.

Yeah. We sold we sold a lot of those. We sold a

lot of those. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. At least six. Record in people's collection, and Yes. They say, yeah. I got it at CD Esoterik.

Yeah. We sold a lot

of those. It was great.

I'm curious about who if anyone has any insight into the gentleman that actually owns CD Esoterik.

Yeah. Thought that was Black Vinyl Records. Yeah. He he'd come in the store and be like, black vinyl? Yeah.

And and he was also pretty funny because we would be like, let's say it's a holiday or something. And Chris would be like, so are we open? It's like, it's a holiday. We're open or closed. He's like, well, is HMV open?

Yeah. Well, we're open. He thought we were like competing with HMV. It was like, what was his name? I forget.

Elias.

Elias. Elias. Yeah. Elias. What I remember most is him coming in, you know, he'd say hi.

He'd take a quick stroll around the store. He'd come back to the counter and lean in and go, watch out for shoplifters.

Yeah. And then just leave.

I also have a weird memory of him being fascinated by a nurse with wound record behind the like, what was on the wall behind us at one point. That was I can't remember which one it was, but I remember him being, like I think it had, like, a fifties looking cover, and he was quite entranced by it.

And watch out for shoplifters with the alarm system being a fraud, not like, like, not even working. Yeah. These plastic things we have to Oh, yeah. The glass I

have nightmares about that.

And I think at one point, I think someone maybe was you, Justin, but someone had forgot to take it out, and the guy just passed through the alarm system. He's like, I forgot to take the plastic off. I'm like, yeah. Sorry.

I'm sure that was me. That's great.

The whole house of cards crumbles.

Yeah. So, Alex, what do you got for us? You gotta start us off here.

Okay. I meant to ask about if it's permission to play a pretty long piece of music. Absolutely. Absolutely. Can it's it's fourteen minutes long.

We can Okay. Edit it. Or

We've done forty, fifty minute pieces here. Like, you got you got all the room, and the fourteen is is not is middling.

Sound. Guess what the speakers are for. Sound. That's what the speakers are for. Sound.

That's what the speakers are for. Sound. That's what the speakers are for. Sound. That's what the speakers are for.

Sound. That's what the speakers are for.

Alright. Wow.

Yeah. That was incredible.

Who is this? So this is it's called Kavane Wayne Space XT. Kavane Wayne is the real name of a footwork producer named RP Boo. Oh, there you go. So but duetting with, or not duetting, playing with two British musicians, a sax player and a drummer who also dabble in electroacoustics.

So normally, RP Boo makes Chicago footwork really high frenetic dance music with really interesting rhythms. But someone, I don't know who had the great idea of pairing him with maybe it was himself that had the idea of pairing him with these two improvised musicians. And, it's just I I really enjoy it. It's It's insane. It's insane.

Yeah. It's the the electronics are, like especially in the first section, like, it's just like, the base stuff that's going on is crazy. Like, it's just it's incredible. Like, it yeah. I was like, wow.

The density of everything too? Wow. Beautiful. Thanks. That's an incredible track.

I never heard anything like it before, really.

Yeah. It it really feels it's like something that you know exists but have never heard before. It's like this total cyborg music. I also really, really love hearing electronic music being recorded live Mhmm. Like, a live setting.

Mhmm.

Yeah. The sound was

going straight to the PA, you know, not going straight to the recorder, and it's, like, coming off of of speakers and stuff. It's like yeah. It's it's I find that really thrilling. It's, like, often that it sounds a little thinner. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. It's but it's it's, like, more it's occupying, like, an actual space, and and so it helps to to, like, meld with and mesh with all the other instruments. Like, I had at the beginning, I had no idea what was going on. Like, I didn't know if the saxophone was even real.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's hard to know what's real and what's not.

Yeah. Yeah. This this drummer is fucking insane too. Right.

So this guy this guy's name is Paul Abbott, and Okay. I don't know anything about him, but I was literally just googled him while we were listening. In fact, this group played at Victoriaville this year. Wow. And I didn't know about it till after it happened.

So Damn.

And there's also, there's always a risk I find, pairing, like, people who work in a more, you know, conventionally structured idiom, like a lot of electronic music or or dance oriented electronic music fits into in a in a improvisational setting. But this this actually works really well in a number of ways in the sense that the the footwork for the RPBO is is able to, you know, interact and interact and and dialogue with the with the saxophone and drummer and also do, like, the the loopy stuff in a free setting that completely works also and is not, like, just footwork with live instruments on it. It's, like, a completely other thing, and it's, like, kinda running parallel. It's no one is definitely locking into anything.

So it's,

like, really, really super interesting.

It's it's funny. It gave me the same, like, existential experience as watching Paul Sherrett movies. Like, I was just like

Yeah.

You're just I was totally in this Paul Sherrett space.

Paul Sherrett's dangerous Paul Sherrett.

Yeah. Like, the scary Paul Sherrett's vibe. Like, I was just like, was it Michael Finissey you're talking about that was the guy who was really influenced by experimental cinema?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, this just felt so, like, experimental cinema to me. I was having this, like I remember when the Music Actuelle label came out with those tiny little music por l'arette CDs that were all supposed to be, like, cinema for your ears. You know?

And Oh, yeah. This was this was totally cinema for the ears. Like, I'm just, like, having this visceral Paul Sherrod's terror listening to that. So sick. I love it.

I think I thought it was, like, Arthur Doyle with Sunny Murray at first. Know? Yeah. Yeah. Drumming was very Sunny Murray to me.

Yeah. And it's actually very Arthur Doyle. And then there's, like, what worked beats. I'm a fourth. Okay.

Arthur Day of hanging out with the kids. You know? Yeah.

Well, yeah. And there's a there that's a really good comparison because there is the arthed oil electro acoustic ensemble, which has him playing kind of, like, noise musicians from Upstate New York, and it's very much this vibe, which I actually thought I hadn't I should revisit that stuff, actually.

He's crazy, Arthur Doyle. What a crazy cat I got here. Oh, yeah. The I think he played, like, with Mizutani at some point. Like,

from Yes. Yeah.

Together or something. It was odd.

Yeah. And I've got this crazy record of his on Kiviko that that Cindy Sherman did

the artwork for. Like Wow.

It's crazy. Like, yeah, he's interesting. There's a really depressing documentary about him that I really hated that was just I felt, like, really exploitive. It was, like, kind of hipster kids. Yeah.

Following him around with a camera and stuff. It was awful. I hated that thing. I was really excited to find out it existed, and then I tracked it down. Was like, it was really bleak.

It was really not good.

There's a story about Morrow trying to get Arthur Doyle to come play Swoney, and someone gave Morrow Arthur's phone number, and and they said he lives with his mom. And if his mom answers, you have to pretend that you're black.

Wow.

What a story. Wild.

I mean, I think living in Alabama. You know?

Yeah. I'm like, also, like, did did the mom answer? I'm waiting for the end

of this story. That

tested the

Morrow did not Did not elucidate further. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't know. Maybe she did, and, Mauro just didn't do anything, and that's why Arthur Doyle never played in Swoney for Buffalo.

I don't think he ever came to Canada.

No. Took it wrong.

No. I

don't think so either.

I would've like, I would've Yeah.

I would've traveled to

Wherever.

Saskatchewan if that Yeah. Yeah.

If I

had to.

Yeah. That was well for that piece of music that you played.

So it it I can't remember. Do I get to go next? Who's going next?

Yeah. Yeah. I

got okay. Whomever. You you got something, Justin?

I I mean, I have an interesting response to that, maybe. I'm gonna ask I'm gonna encourage you guys to not look this up while it's playing and to tell me at the end who the guitar player is because it's a guitar player we all know very, very well. And I'm gonna be really this like, hearing this just blew my mind that this was this guy, and it's, like, one of my I just can't believe this is who's playing guitar on this record. So with that and it's pardon? Can't wait?

Can't can't wait. Here we go.

Yeah. Wow. That

shreds. So this is, like what was that? Auto Will birthday. This is, like, responsible low key shredding.

I love it. It's super

super awesome. So, I guess, I want you guys all to take a guess at who that guitar player

somebody we know, like Someone you

know super well you've listened to. I guarantee everyone in this room has listened to this guitar player at least ten hours of their life.

I'm gonna say Sonny Shiroc.

No? Good good guess. But, I mean, this yeah. Leon, you gotta guess?

Well, okay. I'm gonna go with my first guess, but I've I haven't listened to this person ten hours in my life. Pat Methany. I'm just going No.

No. Good good. I mean, I wish. I wish. I wish that Pat Methany Yeah.

Dave Bailey record was that good. Like, no. No. Jacob, you gotta guess?

If it's somebody else that I know, I know, I would say Chris Burns.

No. That would be sick. That would be so good. Oh god. I can see that, actually.

Yeah.

I bet that's it. I bet I'm right. So this is

gonna this is gonna blow your guys' mind. And apparently, this is one of the most influential records on Thurston Moore ever, like, came out when he was a young feller, and he was obsessed with this record. I I've read that in a couple different places. That's Keith Rowe from AMM.

No. Wow. Yeah.

Numerous Yeah. Soul.

Yeah. He wrote shredding, man. Like and and the whole record is, like I mean, dude is, like, insane shredder. It's crazy.

And I never my outlook on him forever.

Absolutely. It made me love him, like, 10 times more. I was like, I can't this record is it's Amalgam. It's Trevor Watts. Like, they and, apparently, the bass player is really insane too.

The the apparently, drummer's great too. The they had a group for I think this was, like, about five or six years that they were workshopping with this group, and the the it was, like, Trevor Watts said it was, like, one the best music you've ever made. And the the there's a ton of beautiful amalgam records. They're all quite different than each other. This is kind of the heaviest like, it's a noisy record.

It's really, really good. It's a three LP set Beautiful graphic design, like, just the most I love the graphic design to this album so much called Wipe Out. It's it it has that very thin sound that you love, Leo. It sounded like it's recorded with, like, a tape like, a handheld tape recorder in the back of a room, but it's it's it's incredible. Like, I just love this record.

And I I'm, like, so blown away that that's Keith Rowe. That I've been dying to share this with you guys.

Is it all British players?

I'm not sure. I can tell you who the players are. I think it's all British. Colin McKenzie is the bass player. Liam Genachie is the drummer.

Keith Rowe, Trevor Watts.

Wow. Crazy. And

I love I love that in the list like, in the credits, it's it's guitar and then in brackets, guitars, Keith Rowe. Think I guess he's playing six at once or something. It's and, like, you know, you can kinda like, listening to this record over years, I can tell that it's Keith Rowe because that beginning stuff where there's, like, the the very beginning way that the track starts is super AMM, just those weird plinky, like Yeah. And and all the kind of, like, very delicate color stuff he's doing before he starts to shred. But then, like, I did not know Keith Rowe had that in him to shred that hard.

That is so sick. It's crazy.

Because I was actually I was I was waiting for the guitar to start because Yeah. We had set it up that way, and I totally didn't identify it until the the shredding part. But do you know what what year this is from?

I can tell you it is I can look it up here. Oh, no. I can't. This is only the CD reissue, which was 2007, but it's way earlier than that. Where is it?

1979.

Yeah. Nice.

Yeah. And I highly like, everyone should go look at how beautiful this album cover is. It's, like, one of my all time favorite album covers. It's so crazy. She's beautiful.

And you can almost imagine you can almost imagine the story of, like, Cornelius Cardew telling a friend of his, I'm looking for a guitarist for this band, wanna make. They're like, yeah. My friend's buying the knights if you want. You can go sit down. It's like, what?

So it's so and it's, like, I mean, it's really interesting to go up guitar players you guys chose. Like, for me, you know, there's a couple guitar players. Like, I really wanted that. I I like Pat Metheny. Like, I really wanted his noisy stuff to be really awesome, and it just did nothing for me.

And then, you know, also, like, I would have probably guessed James Bud Ulmer for this. It would not be That

would have been

a good call. I just assumed, North American, that it's a trick it was tricky. That that it turned out being UK threw me off. Yeah. Yeah.

I just assumed good old North American harmonic funk. Yeah. That was it.

It's really yeah. It's going another direction. It's pretty thick. But, yeah, I'd love to now I want a guitar duo, like, harmonized leads with Keith Rowe and and James Bud Ulmer. That would be so sick.

It's great. I'm just like Keith

Rowe is still alive? I hate to ask.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think so.

Someone should

talk him that record out.

Talk him back into Reclaim like that. Yeah.

For sure. Yeah. That'd be amazing. Yeah. Fantastic.

Jacob, do you have anything?

Yeah. I have something that I can play with that. I was actually planning on playing it, so and it might work. Okay.

There you

So so the peak I wanna play, you know, when I first heard it, which was maybe, like, three, four years ago, it honestly gave me the biggest joy I felt listening to music. I just felt so happy. I was like, oh my god. And then the happiness just grew and grew. And then the warmth just grew and grew.

And I just got into this trance, and I'm just thinking, I'm so happy. Like, I'm so goddamn happy. And I'm thinking, what the hell am I doing in Poland? Out of all places, I should go to Senegal, I thought. You know?

And so I'll send you this piece of music that they've got me. Just so happy, really, and I hope it makes you guys happy. That's all I can say. The sense of rhythm in it is just really, really incredible. The sound of it, everything about it is really fantastic.

So let's maybe it'll go well with what you played there, Justin. Nice. So that was number one, That's the band name. And the album is called, and the track is called. And, yeah, I just love the repetitiveness of it and just the like, a cloud or something like that.

Just, like, keeps going and going and going. And it doesn't sound like a lot of the stuff that I've heard, be it, like, even, you know, like, all the kind of Nigerian stuff or whatever. Like, this feels like, what the hell is Senegal doing? You know? Is very warm and happy.

And I was just like, man, I wanna just go there. And in fact, I've spoken to Sam Shalabi, and he's like, he had been to Senegal. He's like, man, Jacob, I was in Senegal. I wanted to have something like that. You know, it's like the flirting going on there, man.

I've never experienced in my life. So that kind of music and the warms, I think, maybe is a good good match for me. So

The the the I was thinking about the Kyle Gan track that you played listening to that a little bit. Like, there's this really amazing, microtonality going on, like the tuning. The relationship to tuning in that track is so fucking cool. Like, there's, like the bass is, like, the center of the tuning, and then everything is kinda microtones off the bass. And, like

So strange.

But it feels, like, really intentional. Like, it's, like, got this really kind of almost spectral tonality based on that. That's, like, super interesting, and it just kind of creates, like, the combination of the repetition and the the kind of, like, hyperpigmentation the tuning gives. It's just, like, really, like I'm just, like

Low blow. Yeah. Throaty. It's crazy. Yeah.

There's also, like, a a tinge of melancholy also in the in the melodies, which I I don't know if it's be if if, like, I'm projecting it on it. Maybe there's absolutely no association like that, you know, originally. But It's okay that

we had all these technical problems, Leon. You don't have to feel bad.

Yeah.

Technological melancholy projected on everything.

Yeah. Wow.

But, yeah, that that was really that was really beautiful. Yeah. And the the the trance aspect of it, but also when the the the saxophone solos come in, it's, like, completely yeah. It it it what's it? It gets you out of the trance actually and starts to engages you into, like, you know, the the the lines and everything.

It's it's, like, really, really good.

One of those nice things where it's, like, it's not part of some compilation that came out. I just kind of went down a rabbit hole and went Yeah.

I was gonna ask how you found that.

And just kind of found it. And and then I was, like, for, like, a half a year, was listening to Senegalese music, all these cassettes, all these crazy things. I'm like, what the hell is all this stuff? So

And is this fairly sorry, Jacob. Is this fairly representative of what you've heard?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

It's very, very kind of that kind of quality to it. It's kind of thin. It doesn't have the kind of big bounce that you get from Nigerian stuff or doesn't have the musicality you get from, like, the Ethiopian stuff. This feels just completely on its own kind of weird thing. It's really bizarre.

It was really a great discovery for me when I had discovered it.

Yeah. I I love the the sound of it too. It's like the recording is really, really

thin too. Yeah. It's great.

Very cool arrangement. And the the the background vocals are really subtle and beautiful.

Yeah.

They're kind of call and response. And I I I love the, for lack of a better term, the sort of phased guitar tone.

Mhmm. Yeah. The guitar is amazing. I'm a

sucker for dance music or just in sort of rhythmic guitar that's kind of acts as a algorithm instrument, I guess.

Yeah. Actually sped up also. Like, it almost feels like it's going faster than like, it sounds like they recorded it, and then they sped it up or something. It has this really quick kinda feel to it.

And also some great, again, responsible low key shredding. That was sick. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, wow.

Like, so low key, so shredding. I was just like, this is sick.

Like Yeah. Yeah. It was a yeah.

I love the concept of responsible versus reckless, dangerous, completely irresponsible. Nightshedding.

Okay.

There's a lot of that other kind of shredding.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Too much. That's why we need the responsible kind

of That's why we need it. We're responsible gentlemen here playing responsible music. Yeah. Actually, I

I actually have something that that'll tie in nicely with this and also with what we've been listening to before.

My goodness. My goodness.

So that was, Shabbat Fadigla with a song called the Uelite taken off a self titled cassette. Came out in 1983. Yeah. So we often hear about, like, rhyme music being, like, started off as a kinda traditional folk thing that turned, you know, modern. But this is really, like, such a very clear example of the maybe the the halfway point or, like, the the the meeting point because it's not, you know, it's not really often you hear the the acid baselines of an accordion and and like a a banjo.

So

And that cover. I wish people could see the cover.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful kinda airbrushed illustration of a woman in a blue dress on looks like a desk with, like, some kinda scattered magazines.

It might be the cover of this episode. I think it might

be the of this

It's great.

Can Liam, can you describe what rhyme music is?

Yeah. So rhyme music is started off as a kind of a vernacular popular music from Algeria. I I'm not an expert on it, but I think it started in the the late nineteenth century. So and it was actually mostly women who who sang. And at first, it was just a vocal thing, and then they started introducing instrumentation to it.

And it was always about since the beginning, it was always about, like, just partying, having a good time, you know, love songs, things like that. So it's like a very upbeat celebratory kind of music, and it's never really strayed far from from its original purpose. But it's it modernized fairly organically and quickly with, like, a lot of Western instruments creeping in, I think, with, like, marching band instrumentation from, you know, the colonizing forces. And then I think in the seventies, they started plugging in, like, just using electrical instruments. And so now the sound that we most often or the the palette that we most often associate is, like, just very keyboard heavy Yeah.

Keyboard, possibly drum machine, a lot of hand percussions, and other other instruments as well, like wind wind instruments. But it's a it's a really super vibrant musical form that I've I'm really I really like. And it's like a whole industry. Like, it's from the beginning, there was, like, a lot of recordings being put out constantly because it's pop music. So they they get them out, like, you know, it's most of the time, it's really quick and dirty.

Like, just go into the studio, record as much as you can Yeah. And put out as much as you can. So there's a very, immediate kinda quality to it,

which I also

very appreciate.

That's that's inspiring, that approach. Quick and dirty. Oh, yeah. You you can hear it too. It's not belabored by any means.

It's like

Yeah. No.

It's just so refreshing. And Yeah. It's also really cool to hear, what we now describe as, like, acid baselines or, those Roland, I'm assuming six zero six is the smaller of the two. Yeah. Possibly.

That were kind of, hear them how they're intended as musical workhorses as opposed to these kind

of

fetishized pieces Precious objects. Precious objects, just kind of they're just grinding away kind of. You know?

Yeah. It's it's, weird to consider because this is 1983, so it's basically when they came out.

Yeah. I don't got to got those things and was like, it it's on now. I'm you know?

Yeah. I Although there was a lot of sophistication in the rhythmic stuff going on in the bay like, in the bass, I was just like

Yep.

What? Someone's gotta program it. You know? Someone very

deliberately a lot of time programming it, like, or Well,

I'm actually I'm actually not sure that it's programmed.

It might

be live. Yeah. Yeah. Think that it felt live.

It Mhmm. Because it's like it's like a a looping kinda line, but it varies over time.

Yeah. And this blew me away. Like, I got so lost in trying to keep up with the rhythmic variation of it, like, from phrase to phrase. Because it if you're listening casually, it sounds pretty consistent. But the second you drill in and start paying attention, it's just going everywhere.

Like, it was so wild. I was like it was really pretty impressive. Yeah.

Another little trivia about, Shabbat Fadila. She she put out a record that got sampled by a, UK hardcore producer in, like, 1991, Lenny d Ice, and it's the famous We Are E sample. So that's taken from one of her recordings, but it's actually not her singing that line that that got sampled. It's someone else. But yeah.

So there's there's definitely continuation continuum thing going on.

Alex, can you

follow that?

So I'm gonna switch. This is follows in terms of a sonic palette surprisingly well, but it's from another time, another place. That's for sure. I won't say what it is till after. It's pretty but I will say that it's it's Montreal.

So that's that's a, I guess, a trio called, s and plow, which is there's two musicians from Montreal, s and p, and a third collaborator from Berlin named Plough. S and p r, and it's on Due Records. It's a Montreal record label. So this is quite recent. This just came out.

So good. Yeah. I really enjoy it, and I really enjoy it it reminds me a lot of one of the reasons I chose it is it reminds me a lot of the music that, I was introduced to through CD Esoterik and Chris' taste. Totally.

Yeah. And I was really channel.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's a huge inspiration for these guys, and I really like that, that's kind of come around again in compact records and all that stuff.

Good call.

And I also it reminds me a lot of this series of records by Conrad Becker that Eric Madsen put out called Monoton. I don't know if you guys remember that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Remember those. Yeah. Yeah.

That are really amazing. They're kinda like eighties. It kinda sounds like this a bit, but, from the sort of the the eighties in East Germany, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The circuits are incredible.

But these guys are it's a great crew. Full disclosure, I work Spencer is my colleague at work, so this is how I know about this. I would not know about this otherwise.

Wow.

But, they do great parties and just churn out the the 12 inches. It's their their their oh, it's a whole production line, which I think is really cool too.

Yeah. I I actually went to the, to the release party for this record. Oh, cool.

Yeah. I figured you might know the this crew.

Well, by name, but when I got there, I had a really, really good time, and it was a really super solid night. But I realized that it was the first time that I the first real time I went to a minimal techno event by choice, and I had I had never chosen minimal techno. And I have you know, I've been listening to dance music for a really, really long time, and I remember the the the the Montreal smoked meat golden age Mhmm. You know, period, Esoterik also. And for some reason, I've always gravitated towards, like, the the more obnoxious, you know, loud, brash side of of dance music even though I'm I'm really I love, you know, more, I guess, less brush stuff, more responsible

stuff in

other other areas of music. But somehow, I always felt like dance music was supposed to be about, like, release and and just, like, excess and joy. And I really, really I had a super strange time at the record launch, but completely enjoyed it. Like, I I I really felt like I had a a super good night, but it was unlike anything I had been to before or or, like, kinda engaged with. So so I was really happy about about experiencing that.

And, yeah, that's a really, really solid record.

I like the idea of just stripping that music down to the the these very core simple elements too. That is cool. And it's not, not unlike I mean, sounds totally different, but the idea of stripping rock music down to a minimal essence where you get something like beat happening or, I don't know. I can't think of any. But you know what I mean?

Like Yeah. Just minimalism in general where you're like, what is the what is the core thing that's going on here? You know?

And But there's with this with this kind of music, though, there's the the really important part of physically experiencing it on the dance floor, which is, like, a really super important part of it. And what I've found is that once, you know, the the the kick, the repetitive kick, like, kinda engages you, engages your body. And then you start taking it for granted, like, completely forget about it. And then it's just ambient music. It's just, like, all the random shit that's going on that you're you're picking up on.

Like, you don't even hear the kick or the sub anymore. You because you feel it. Like

Yeah.

Your body's already doing its own thing responding to that part of the music. Yeah. And then your head and your ears are, like, picking up all the

the ghostly sounds.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's like a really very, very strange experience.

So it got me it got me thinking a little bit. Sorry, Justin. Like, how do they record this? Like, is it just live? Because, you know,

you I think they're like like what we were talking about with the with the rye music, I think it's quick and dirty, and it's more about getting in there and

Just playing it.

Yeah. Just getting machines going and feeling it and getting into that zone that Leon's Leon's describing on the dance floor in the studio, you

know Yeah.

Where you're just like, maybe the kick drum isn't something that you're thinking about so much anymore, and you're just feeling the little kind of details in the sound that you get. But it's, it's very much like electronic music studio. And what how is that different than a normal studio? I I I I don't it's outboard effects, hardware, and outboard effects. That's kind of the focus.

And using sort of, like, more of, like, a dub style of

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Routing sounds through a mixing board and creating these kind of weird matrixes between your equipment and your effects.

I was totally spacing out.

Yeah. It's a cool approach. It's a really cool approach.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Who's next?

I I am and I have a minimal r and b track in response to that Beautiful. That's that I'm pretty excited about. That's this is actually the the track. Spotify told me this was the track that I listened to the most last year and that I listened to it more than, like, point I was, like, point 0001% of listeners for it. So, clearly, I am a massive fan of this track.

I will share it with you guys. And I think it's a beautiful kind of response to that track too. So that's Kia. That's perfect.

Yeah. Entirely. Hey?

So good. It's that's Kia. Do yourself a favor. This track it's hilarious because I was hanging with my friend Anthony Galati, who is also a dance music producer last night, and we were talking about the podcast. And I was like he's like, what what music do you play?

And I'm like I was trying to explain. I was like said, like, you know, really experimental music that people don't care about anymore. Like like, you know, like contemporary classical, free jazz, really noisy stuff. He's like, oh, like that track you played me in the car with that girl from Chicago. And he read this track.

And I'm like, this is

but it's kinda cool because this like, to me, this is one of the most experimental tracks Yeah. Every possible way.

Like Absolutely.

It's it's mind blowing to me. The the fact that the drums don't come in to, like, over halfway through the track. The drum programming is maybe my favorite drum programming on any R and B track ever. It's so weird and Yeah. Off kilter and beautiful.

And the vocal arrangements, like, every the use of sampling, like, everything in it is just like, I'm like, you're a genius. Like, this person is just so next level to me. The whole album is, again, like, consistently incredible. Like, it's really jaw droppingly great, this record. And, like, I'm just shocked.

Even every time like, I've listened to that track, like, literally a million times. Like, it's ridiculous. And every time I listen to it, I'm just, like, discovering something new in the production and, like, how did you wow. It's crazy. I love that track so much.

As I get older, my definition of what constitutes experimental music has changed drastically.

Yeah.

And Yeah. I was really influenced by a essay I read by George Lewis from the Oh, yeah. Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians and, computer music guy, trombonist, etcetera, etcetera.

Anyway Yes, too.

I can't remember the name of the essay. I'll find it, and we can put it in show notes. But the basic premise of the essay is why is John Cage experimental music and Charlie Parker is not experimental music? And and, yeah, it's, it was it's hugely influenced my thinking since since going forward. You know?

I wanna know, is that pretty recent record?

Yeah. It just got reissued on vinyl this year, and I believe it was from 2020 originally. Okay. Yeah. And it's got some traction.

Like, I know that, like, there's a lot of people that, like, you know, are are it's a it's a pretty well loved and understood record. It's, like, definitely got a lot of love in the world.

Is it,

North American or British? North American. And, also, was, I believe, like, pretty much recorded in a bedroom, like, the whole record. Like, pretty pretty, like, in the bars.

Amazing part of, current day, r and b is that a lot of it is bedroom recordings. You wouldn't know Yeah. That what constitutes a bedroom recording has also changed drastically. Like, and there's a lot of the reason I asked is because there's a lot of really forward thinking R and B being made in The UK. Yeah.

The UK right now.

It's Yeah.

For sure.

It's a real thing, and it's, each one is more interesting than a lot. You know, it just seems like there's this super rapid progression that's going on Yeah. Which I love.

This sounds like it's got a real LA association in my mind. It's kinda like the flying lotus kinda new new neo soul Yep. Thing. So it's definitely, like, a part of a vocabulary, but it's still that I'm not very familiar with, to be honest. But every time I hear it, it's like, wow.

I I'm this is this sounds really new to me. Like and and people are listening to this, and they're, like, accepting it. And so it's, like, really giving me a lot of hope that, you know, there's there's all this super forward thinking music being being made by by by, you know, up and coming artists, by young people who are curious, who are pushing things. Yeah. So it's you know?

She's she's Chicago based, and one of the things I love about her too is she, like, really, you know, has a deep kind of basis in soul, but she's also, like, a massive goth and, like, grunge fan. She really loves Nirvana, and she really loves Susie and the Banshees. And, like, you can hear that there too. It's really, really interesting. It's like it's a really I I haven't heard any blend of music like what she's doing.

It's really it's really interesting.

No. In one of my in one of my classes, I have, like, a hip hop guy, and he's, like, wearing black metal suit boots. Yeah. I'm just like

Yeah.

And it's the new thing, apparently. I don't know anything, but, like, black metal and hip hop merged together.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

You guys know this? Yeah.

I mean, I I actually do. And, yeah, that's there's, all of the combinations are happening everywhere.

Yeah. You know, Responsibly. It's Responsive. Yeah.

I think it's fantastic. It's really like, I mean, the silos are it's weird because with with the the social interactions that we're that we have nowadays, it feels like a or everyone keeps saying that everyone's reality is so siloed, like, we're really in in these individual bubbles. But at the same time, it's like all of the genre, you know, frontiers are completely, you know, busted open, and everything is fair game. It's like, there are no rules anymore. Like, you're allowed to like whatever you want.

So and I think that's, like, such a good good good development that way.

Yeah. Okay.

I think it's is it Jacob you're next?

Oh, god. You're next.

Oh, I'm somebody. I just dug something out, so I'm gonna play it. Yeah. Maybe it's gonna work. I just dug it out now.

I I actually picked up my external hard drive, and I plugged it in, and I'm making for this song. And I found this song, so I'm just gonna I'm gonna play it, and then then we'll see. It's also kind of I mean, why I've decided to play it because it has that kind of what we're talking about now, you know, in in your bedroom, things like that. So let me just get to it.

I love your pink desktop.

Thank you. Thank you. Let me just put it on. I guess I can just play it off here. Well, let's see if it plays.

Well Wow. Yeah.

Was that Chris Burns?

Good call, though.

Good Chris Burns dub dub records? Yeah.

Yeah. So it's an unknown album, and the track is called Slitty Slobby Thru by the one and only Gavin Sheehan.

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Of course.

Damn. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing.

It was written on Jersey records, but they said no. I mean, it's just so great.

Why did they say no?

Why did they say no? It's in New Year.

That's yeah. That was fantastic. That was so good. It totally worked. It totally worked.

It worked. Absolutely. It did. Makes total sense.

Such a fabulous track, and there's more out there for those who are interested. So maybe another episodes, we'll put them. But they're wonderful, wonderful friend from a wonderful person.

So did I miss did you said that that wasn't released?

Nope. Okay. Nope. I just I somewhere, and it's just a folder, and it says unknown album, and there's a five track to it. Fuck you.

Well, so so this is an exclusive. This is

That's guess so.

CD Esoterik exclusive.

Like, just bringing the best and the you know? Yeah.

Slobby.

Was I was laughing hysterically through the entire, like, track. It was incredible. It was

That's just track. It's still fantastic.

Oh, great.

Interesting. Well, just amazing.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Incredible.

I'd never heard that. I can't believe I

heard that. No.

I didn't know that track. Or maybe I did, and it was so incredible that it, like, erased itself from my memory so I could have that experience again. Yeah.

Gavin probably recorded everything himself and Yeah. Played all the instruments and because he's that kinda Gavin.

Yes. Yep. Okay. Alright. Well to you.

Yeah. I have a bit of a, I guess, a palate cleanser.

Isn't this the this is the end, man. You're the you're the taking us out music.

Yeah. I got the I got the last track. Yeah. I got the last track. It's another cassette.

That's my theme today. This is from 1982 by someone called Kevin Harrison and Steven Parker. Yeah. So that was oop, I need to get my notes.

So Alex Monday actually did the song.

Oh, I don't have my notes. Okay. Well, that was Kevin Harrison and Steven Parker. The track was called Cavalcade, and it's taken off of a cassette from 1982 called Against the Light. Two.

Yeah. So Kevin Harrison is from The UK. He was active in the seventies and eighties in putting out, like, tons of cassettes. I think he only has one LP out that kinda collects his cassettes or some parts of his cassettes. But, yeah, I when I stumbled on this track, it immediately reminded me of a track that you had played, Justin, a couple episodes ago of the responsible low end Oh, yeah.

The audio Otto Wilberg. Yeah. Otto Wilberg. I mean Yeah. Definitely not as much noodling in the bass, but but just the the the the melodic with the with the synthetic, you know, low end stuff going on.

I I just like how, you know yeah. It's it's just a line that just keeps going, and sometimes that's all you need. You know?

Refreshing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It also had a bit of an Natasha's vibe to me. Like, like, really felt like Natasha's stuff. It was really

call to actually. Yeah.

Yeah. I I hadn't made that, that association, but yeah. Well, this sounds beautifully. Yeah. The the the rest of the the tape is really, really good too.

There's some singing on it, and I think that's Steven Parker singing, who I have no information about whatsoever, and I I don't think he has a very large output. But, yeah, it it goes similar in the similar kind of terrain, but there's a lot of, like, field recordings sometimes. And, I think Kevin Harrison is is more of a guitar guy also, so there's some some guitar stuff in there. And it it has that really dreary, mopey UK kind of current Monary ish. Thing, which I'm kinda, you know, I'm kind of a sucker for.

Me too.

I mean, who isn't really? You know?

That that they've all got it somehow. I don't know I don't know what it is. I guess it's the rain. Yeah. Yeah.

Whatever. The island vibe, I guess. But

Yeah. Anyway. I had to check and see if it if this was not on the on the list, on the messaging list, but it it's not. So Yeah. Yeah.

The list.

Is there a complete, obviously, there's somewhere you reference the whole

Wikipedia. Yeah. And it's, like, sorted alphabetically. I don't remember if it's alphabetical in the actual list. It's not.

It's not. Okay. I don't think so.

I don't remember it being alphabetical. I might be wrong. That but I don't remember it being alphabetical.

It's not something I know a lot about, but there is it seems like there was a whole kind of culture around homemade cassettes in The UK in the, I guess, like, seventies, early eighties. Yeah. That's kinda tied into male art culture too somehow.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't

Yeah. Something that's NFVRK is actually really, you know, like, definitely keeping the the torch burning in that regards with the mail art cassette culture.

Cool. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a whole DIY DIY scene in The UK. Mhmm. Yeah.

Alex. Shoot. Sorry. No. I was just gonna say it's incredible to have you on the show.

Like, thank you.

For having me. Yeah. Yeah. An An amazing way to spend a a Saturday morning. Yeah.

Can't think of a better way. Yeah.

Yeah. Did did you wanna talk a little bit about, Anun province? Sure.

Yeah. Just, Felix, Morell, and I. It's it's actually an extension of a project that, I've been working on for about over five, six, seven years, with, Ted Lee and Byron Colley, which is, releasing reissuing lost artifacts of Canadian underground music. We've only got one out so far, which is Bill Bissett, who's a sound art or sound poet. Oh, yeah.

And Jess was actually awarded the, the governor general's award for the arts. Wow. Finally.

Yeah. It's, like, so long overdue.

Yeah. After being completely rejected by the Canadian establishment for years, even was, had he was used there was, like, a conservative politician in the seventies that used his art as an example of why the, Canada Council for the Arts should be defunded. This this is the kind of smutty abstract bullshit that they were funding. Anyway, but it's a very slow process. Making LPs is a slow process.

Byron and Ted just, have massive they run a label that releases, literally ten, twenty, 30 records a year, which is crazy to think about. Anyway, so Felix and I were turned it into a expanded it into a YouTube channel. And we've, in the immediate term, we've been focusing on music from Montreal, although that's not the limit of the thing. And so the most recent one is Raisin Brains, which is a group by that featured Michel Munier, who was also, in ton of bands Montreal. And, also, we've even done some, like, more recent kind of punk bands, and a really cool eighties electronic project that kind of fits in actually into DIY cassette.

We're kind of the Canadian equivalent of The UK DIY cassette world. There's a guy named Catharsist, who

made LPs and cassettes. Felix Legend. Legend.

Yeah. Felix tracks managed to track him down. A lot of times these guys are really eager, obviously, to talk about these projects that they worked on for years of their lives, you know, and suddenly they get a phone call from someone that's like, hey. I wanna talk about this, and it's could be slow going, you know, before they're actually willing. It's you you would think that they would just be like, yeah.

Great. Let's talk about my music I made forty years ago, but, you kinda have to build some trust and, know, Felix went and met him in the parking lot of Costco Wow. To, like, make the make the hand off and get the attention kind of thing. With these two kids standing there like, hey, dad. Who's this guy?

But, yeah, it's, Felix and I, it's kind of our hobby, and we don't get to do it as much as we started out at a really good tempo, and we're, like, really churning them out. And we've slowed down because life has you know, is life is life in this, kids say. But they will keep coming, and we're really trying to dig in and just especially even, again, back to CD Esoterik, I mean, that place was a hub for a whole Mhmm. Golden era of experimental music in Montreal that is not Documented anywhere. Yeah.

Or like it is, but it's in people's collections. You know? It's in or a lot of the times it's like, oh, man. My box of CDRs, it's in

the bottom of a closet. I'll

get back to you in a year.

Yeah. Yeah. And just

like rifling through all the different size, you know, cut out paper sleeves and shit.

Yeah. Yeah. And they were also some of the best sellers, I would say. Some people would come just for that. And it

was It was the Yeah. Place that you could get that stuff.

It So

Right. Ended that display case, which made it, quite visually presented in a nice way that, like, wasn't, like, a rifle through this box or even just the usual kind of bin style

Yeah.

Line of records. You know? So

No. We can So, anyway, that's a

good stuff.

YouTube, you know, you could just look up unknown province.

There's We should put a a link in the show notes for this.

Yeah. Hours of hours of fun. And shout out to Felix. It's really his initiative. And, like I was mentioning to you guys last time, he's been doing a lot of the writing.

He's writing in his second language, and it's just amazing how good a writer he is, has become. So it's also a fun place to go if you wanna read. Like, that's something that, Spotify, Instagram, there's the idea of accompanying text with music, has kinda disappeared. Like, is, like, of us loves to sit down, listen to a record, and look at the insert, read the insert while listening to the record, you know, and is trying to kinda bring some of that back to the experience too. So

That's wonderful.

Really nice texts that try and center the artist, you know, as best we can.

So Awesome. That's great. Yeah. I mean super good work.

This is a pretty fantastic place to queue up the, the closing music. Absolutely. A perfect fit.

Yeah. Enjoy the rest of your weekends,

gentlemen. Nice to see guys.

Thank you. As always.