WEBVTT 00:00:02.970 --> 00:00:07.050 Matt Abrahams: Effective leaders, effective communicators, focus on 00:00:07.050 --> 00:00:10.380 clarity, context, and character. 00:00:10.830 --> 00:00:14.160 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:16.110 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.350 --> 00:00:19.185 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:21.285 --> 00:00:24.855 Today I am grateful to speak to General Stanley McChrystal. 00:00:25.275 --> 00:00:29.655 General McChrystal is a retired four star general, former commander of US 00:00:29.655 --> 00:00:34.155 and international forces in Afghanistan, and a renowned expert on leadership. 00:00:34.335 --> 00:00:38.325 He is best known for revolutionizing counter-terrorism operations and building 00:00:38.325 --> 00:00:41.235 cohesive teams in complex environments. 00:00:41.595 --> 00:00:46.185 He's a highly successful author with books like Team of Teams and his latest, 00:00:46.185 --> 00:00:49.485 On Character: Choices That Define a Life. 00:00:50.040 --> 00:00:53.430 Welcome, I have been excited for this conversation for a long time. 00:00:53.430 --> 00:00:54.030 Thank you. 00:00:54.630 --> 00:00:55.710 General Stanley McChrystal: Well, Matt, thanks for having me. 00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:56.910 I'm looking forward to it as well. 00:00:57.360 --> 00:00:57.780 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:57.780 --> 00:00:58.530 Shall we get started? 00:00:59.160 --> 00:00:59.520 General Stanley McChrystal: Please. 00:01:00.089 --> 00:01:03.150 Matt Abrahams: General McChrystal, I'm a huge admirer of your book Team of 00:01:03.150 --> 00:01:07.470 Teams, and in it you talk about shared consciousness and shared information. 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:12.180 What is it that leaders can do to build that shared consciousness, 00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:16.620 especially in an environment where we're drowning in emails and Slacks? 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:21.090 How can we actually come together around a shared point of view? 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:23.400 General Stanley McChrystal: The first thing about sharing information that I 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:29.880 found later in my military career is we had natural silos vertically, and then 00:01:29.880 --> 00:01:35.130 we also had the hierarchy creates other boundaries for the flow of information. 00:01:35.460 --> 00:01:39.450 So information in structures, bureaucracies, think pyramid shaped 00:01:39.450 --> 00:01:44.460 hierarchies, tend to follow carefully prescribed routes up and down and 00:01:44.460 --> 00:01:50.580 whatnot, and not across as easily unless it is encouraged and in fact demanded. 00:01:51.165 --> 00:01:54.165 And so what I found was first, you need to change the mindset. 00:01:55.080 --> 00:01:58.950 In the old days in, in the military, you never got in trouble for 00:01:58.950 --> 00:02:01.560 information you didn't share to someone. 00:02:02.010 --> 00:02:05.430 But you could be criticized if you shared some information that 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:07.920 you didn't have approval from your boss or your chain of command. 00:02:08.490 --> 00:02:13.230 So we tried to flip that on its head and say that you are responsible 00:02:13.410 --> 00:02:16.860 for informing other people of things that they need to know. 00:02:17.070 --> 00:02:19.260 And then you say, how do I know what they need to know? 00:02:19.260 --> 00:02:21.870 And the answer is, you never really do. 00:02:22.470 --> 00:02:26.760 So the default needs to be to share and then overshare. 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:30.840 In fact, I, I said something when I took over the Counter-terrorist Force, which 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:36.300 was a complex community of different organizations, the goal is to have 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.970 everyone know everything, all the time. 00:02:40.350 --> 00:02:41.880 Now, that's impossible, clearly. 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:47.760 But the concept of shared consciousness is we all have a common contextual 00:02:47.820 --> 00:02:53.850 understanding of what the situation is, what we are trying to do, and 00:02:53.850 --> 00:02:58.650 then people can make decisions without going and get approval for everything 00:02:58.650 --> 00:03:01.950 they're gonna do because they have the context, they're informed. 00:03:02.430 --> 00:03:07.709 And so the biggest thing I found was first change the rules of information 00:03:07.709 --> 00:03:11.310 sharing, and then more slowly change the culture of information sharing. 00:03:12.299 --> 00:03:13.829 Matt Abrahams: So context is critical. 00:03:13.829 --> 00:03:18.780 And also the approach, being that the idea is get all the information to everybody 00:03:19.109 --> 00:03:23.700 and not worry about the potential negative ramifications of that information. 00:03:23.910 --> 00:03:27.060 General Stanley McChrystal: The idea that information is power, you don't want to 00:03:27.060 --> 00:03:30.839 share information 'cause someone knows that you won't be quite as important. 00:03:30.839 --> 00:03:37.010 So it becomes very important to break down those hesitations in sharing information. 00:03:37.425 --> 00:03:41.205 And then there's the last one, which I really see more in civilian business. 00:03:41.385 --> 00:03:44.805 We don't want to scare the children, so we don't want to tell 'em that 00:03:44.805 --> 00:03:48.045 revenue's down or that there are headwinds in the marketplace. 00:03:48.225 --> 00:03:53.715 The reality is when we leave a vacuum in our teams, they fill it with the 00:03:53.715 --> 00:03:59.535 darkest ideas available because there are all sorts of information sources out 00:03:59.535 --> 00:04:01.035 there, many of which are very flawed. 00:04:01.155 --> 00:04:04.395 So you have to not try to prevent information, you have 00:04:04.395 --> 00:04:07.965 to compete with information that they're already receiving. 00:04:08.205 --> 00:04:11.355 Matt Abrahams: That's a really powerful point, that if you're not communicating, 00:04:11.355 --> 00:04:15.160 people will find and fill that vacuum on their own, and it might be much 00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:16.690 worse than what the reality is. 00:04:16.899 --> 00:04:19.899 I'm curious, I totally appreciate and understand changing 00:04:19.899 --> 00:04:21.070 the mindset and approach. 00:04:21.310 --> 00:04:24.400 Were there certain things that you've implemented or have seen implemented 00:04:24.400 --> 00:04:25.810 that really help reinforce it? 00:04:25.810 --> 00:04:28.330 It's one thing for the leader to say, share everything so we 00:04:28.330 --> 00:04:29.860 all have the same information. 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.770 But a lot of people inherently might not do that. 00:04:32.770 --> 00:04:34.120 So is it role modeling? 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.130 Is it rewarding when it's done well? 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:38.440 How do you actually get people to do that? 00:04:38.710 --> 00:04:40.000 General Stanley McChrystal: I could mention several. 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.400 The first of course is role models, senior leaders. 00:04:42.695 --> 00:04:44.914 They've gotta be as transparent as they can. 00:04:45.125 --> 00:04:50.164 We like to look up at the sphinx like CEO, who only pronounces 00:04:50.164 --> 00:04:53.284 something occasionally, but I found it's better to over communicate. 00:04:53.465 --> 00:04:56.224 The second is you've gotta set up processes and 00:04:56.224 --> 00:04:58.205 technologies which allow that. 00:04:58.414 --> 00:05:03.275 And so nowadays with information technology as omnipresent as 00:05:03.275 --> 00:05:08.430 it is we can usually reach everybody almost at any time. 00:05:08.760 --> 00:05:09.960 We need to leverage that. 00:05:10.290 --> 00:05:14.190 Matt Abrahams: So it's really about people, process, and tools are the ways 00:05:14.190 --> 00:05:15.930 that you actually affect that change. 00:05:15.930 --> 00:05:16.560 Thank you. 00:05:17.010 --> 00:05:20.700 You have often worked in very diverse situations with military, 00:05:20.700 --> 00:05:24.240 government, international partners, and local populations. 00:05:24.775 --> 00:05:29.035 All of these have very different goals, communication styles, and cultural norms. 00:05:29.425 --> 00:05:34.945 How do you adapt to ensure clarity and build trust, especially when you are 00:05:34.945 --> 00:05:37.675 in very ambiguous and uncertain times? 00:05:38.125 --> 00:05:39.475 General Stanley McChrystal: Yeah, Matt, first you have to 00:05:39.475 --> 00:05:41.275 start out by recognizing it. 00:05:41.575 --> 00:05:44.545 I remember, and I've described this, I'd be in Afghanistan and I'd be 00:05:44.545 --> 00:05:48.930 meeting with Pashtun elders with a different language than I spoke, a 00:05:48.930 --> 00:05:50.970 different religion, a different culture. 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.660 So when I sat with them and talked, it was just absolutely obvious 00:05:55.110 --> 00:05:59.010 that we had a cultural divide in communicating, and so we were very 00:05:59.010 --> 00:06:01.200 careful about how we communicated. 00:06:01.500 --> 00:06:05.430 Then I would meet with people from the US Department of State, for example. 00:06:05.760 --> 00:06:08.670 They speak English, we have a shared culture, a shared 00:06:08.970 --> 00:06:10.890 religion, all of those things. 00:06:11.520 --> 00:06:14.700 But actually the cultural divide was huge. 00:06:15.030 --> 00:06:21.870 And I could be speaking military and thinking that it is being heard with 00:06:21.870 --> 00:06:25.680 the same kind of understanding that I hope it will, and that wasn't the case. 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:26.520 And then vice versa. 00:06:26.820 --> 00:06:32.730 And sometimes just titles or uniforms or difference in organizations can create 00:06:32.730 --> 00:06:36.570 this, but we don't seem sensitive to that. 00:06:36.780 --> 00:06:41.340 And so we walk out of the room and we say, Matt's just, he's stupid. 00:06:41.550 --> 00:06:42.719 He's got a bad attitude. 00:06:42.719 --> 00:06:43.680 He doesn't listen. 00:06:43.830 --> 00:06:48.135 When in fact that comes at it from a completely different direction than 00:06:48.135 --> 00:06:49.560 I do, and we need to appreciate that. 00:06:50.265 --> 00:06:52.515 Matt Abrahams: I have certainly been called stupid and unprepared in many 00:06:52.515 --> 00:06:56.924 situations, but the point you are making is very clear that we have to first 00:06:56.955 --> 00:06:58.844 appreciate and understand the differences. 00:06:58.844 --> 00:07:01.965 And sometimes those cultural differences aren't just the things 00:07:01.965 --> 00:07:05.565 you see on the outside, how somebody looks or where somebody is located. 00:07:05.565 --> 00:07:08.864 Those cultural differences can be within the same organization. 00:07:08.864 --> 00:07:12.674 You and your colleagues in the State Department are part of the US government. 00:07:13.065 --> 00:07:17.474 So really important to recognize it and then adjust your communication, for sure. 00:07:17.940 --> 00:07:23.100 All leaders have to give difficult news and challenging information. 00:07:23.430 --> 00:07:27.180 Maybe it's a failed project, a change in strategy, or even negative feedback. 00:07:27.570 --> 00:07:31.290 How do you approach giving bad news or challenging news? 00:07:31.290 --> 00:07:33.150 Is there a structure you use? 00:07:33.150 --> 00:07:36.690 A way of going about it that you have found helps you to be more successful? 00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:38.880 General Stanley McChrystal: I think the first is you've gotta 00:07:38.880 --> 00:07:42.780 communicate it as clearly and as quickly as you are capable of doing. 00:07:43.260 --> 00:07:48.480 There is no real advantage in trying to make it seem not as 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:51.030 serious as it is or to sugarcoat it. 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:55.200 And so I think you start by saying, okay, I've got some very 00:07:55.200 --> 00:07:56.820 serious information to pass. 00:07:57.180 --> 00:07:58.320 Here it is. 00:07:58.950 --> 00:08:02.550 Now the other thing though, occasionally a leader will do that 00:08:02.550 --> 00:08:03.665 and then wanna walk out of the room. 00:08:04.289 --> 00:08:06.299 Drop the bombshell and wanna walk outta the room. 00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:13.080 Context is very important because if a CEO walks into the company and says, 00:08:13.380 --> 00:08:18.650 everyone's pay is gonna be cut fifty percent, life's hard, and walks out, 00:08:19.090 --> 00:08:21.315 you get one response from everybody. 00:08:21.585 --> 00:08:24.075 If the CEO goes, okay, lemme be upfront. 00:08:24.075 --> 00:08:25.455 Everyone's pay is being cut. 00:08:25.755 --> 00:08:26.745 Here's why. 00:08:27.075 --> 00:08:29.385 Here's the context, here's the rationale. 00:08:29.385 --> 00:08:31.245 Here's what we're trying to do with it. 00:08:31.544 --> 00:08:35.684 Now you gotta avoid the temptation to say, and you know it's gonna be okay, 00:08:35.985 --> 00:08:37.625 if you're not sure it's gonna be okay. 00:08:37.995 --> 00:08:41.565 But you can communicate things like, I am committed to this team. 00:08:41.925 --> 00:08:43.245 We will work through this. 00:08:43.245 --> 00:08:46.545 If we think back to COVID-19, when it first started, the 00:08:46.545 --> 00:08:47.895 great thing was uncertainty. 00:08:48.075 --> 00:08:51.345 And so we had to all communicate with our teammates who are now 00:08:51.705 --> 00:08:55.005 geographically distributed, and many of 'em are sitting in their 00:08:55.125 --> 00:08:57.015 apartments or at their kitchen table. 00:08:57.015 --> 00:08:59.325 They don't know if they're still gonna have a job. 00:08:59.325 --> 00:09:00.435 They don't know how to interact. 00:09:00.675 --> 00:09:04.665 And so we can communicate, Hey, this is serious. 00:09:05.250 --> 00:09:09.720 We don't know exactly how it's gonna play out, but here's what you can count on. 00:09:09.990 --> 00:09:11.940 I'm gonna be committed for your welfare. 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.970 Promise those things that are within your power to promise. 00:09:15.344 --> 00:09:17.474 Matt Abrahams: So it sounds to me like three things are really important. 00:09:17.474 --> 00:09:20.385 One is clarity, being very clear and direct. 00:09:20.805 --> 00:09:25.694 Second is understanding and appreciating the context and sticking in that context. 00:09:25.905 --> 00:09:29.115 And then what I also heard you talking about was connection, really connecting 00:09:29.115 --> 00:09:33.464 to the people, not just dropping it and running, but connecting the information 00:09:33.464 --> 00:09:35.415 and the next steps to the individuals. 00:09:35.415 --> 00:09:40.265 And I think those three steps of clarity, context, and connection are 00:09:40.265 --> 00:09:44.314 really important for any communication, let alone that's challenging. 00:09:44.614 --> 00:09:47.944 I'd like to follow up on this COVID situation that you mentioned, 00:09:47.944 --> 00:09:50.824 because that fundamentally changed the way we communicated. 00:09:50.824 --> 00:09:52.834 We were all remote and distanced. 00:09:53.435 --> 00:09:57.665 How have you dealt with leading and communicating when you're 00:09:57.665 --> 00:10:01.265 doing it through a screen, when not everybody is in the same room. 00:10:01.444 --> 00:10:06.515 What best practices do you employ to help you be effective and continue to connect 00:10:06.515 --> 00:10:08.375 and build trust with those you're leading? 00:10:08.915 --> 00:10:09.305 General Stanley McChrystal: Yeah. 00:10:09.305 --> 00:10:13.175 Let me start, Matt, I actually had a head start on this because in the 00:10:13.175 --> 00:10:18.465 Counter-terrorist Force starting in 2003, my force was spread across seventy-six 00:10:18.484 --> 00:10:23.415 bases in twenty-seven countries, and we were just at the beginning 00:10:23.445 --> 00:10:26.025 of secure video teleconferencing. 00:10:26.325 --> 00:10:29.925 And so that's how we communicated essentially all the time. 00:10:30.195 --> 00:10:32.205 Now, I learned a number of things. 00:10:32.295 --> 00:10:36.345 I learned first that it's not nearly as effective as we wanna believe it is. 00:10:36.765 --> 00:10:38.565 It's not like being in the room. 00:10:38.865 --> 00:10:44.160 And so, the first is you try to build up, whenever you have the opportunity, 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:50.040 relationships, usually in person, that you can then build and communicate later. 00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:53.880 So if you and I had a real close personal relationship, we could 00:10:53.880 --> 00:10:57.420 then do virtual things at a much higher level of effectiveness 00:10:57.660 --> 00:10:59.160 than if we didn't know each other. 00:10:59.400 --> 00:11:01.620 So you're building upon a foundation. 00:11:01.860 --> 00:11:06.990 The next thing is communication, particularly between different ranks 00:11:06.990 --> 00:11:09.330 in an organization, can be fraught. 00:11:09.750 --> 00:11:13.330 So for example, I would communicate with very junior people and 00:11:13.330 --> 00:11:14.600 I was a commanding general. 00:11:14.940 --> 00:11:18.780 And they would come on the screen and clearly they are terrified 00:11:18.780 --> 00:11:21.570 because they've never spoken to someone that senior before. 00:11:21.900 --> 00:11:26.100 And I tried to first say, hello, Susan, how are you? 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:28.770 And in many cases they go, how does he know my name? 00:11:29.415 --> 00:11:34.455 The answer is, I had a cheat sheet because I knew that was important to do that. 00:11:34.755 --> 00:11:38.565 And then when they communicated at the end of their communication, I would always 00:11:38.565 --> 00:11:40.485 ask a question, even if I knew the answer. 00:11:40.725 --> 00:11:42.135 And that was for two things. 00:11:42.135 --> 00:11:46.815 It was to communicate to them that what they are doing is important and listening, 00:11:47.115 --> 00:11:51.285 and to give them another opportunity to demonstrate their expertise. 00:11:51.765 --> 00:11:54.735 Because you're building their confidence and you're trying to 00:11:54.735 --> 00:11:56.925 build this relationship as you go. 00:11:57.510 --> 00:12:01.050 I would never sit there just quietly and go, thank you. 00:12:01.380 --> 00:12:02.040 We're okay. 00:12:02.190 --> 00:12:06.510 Because if you're a young person and you brief Matt Abraham's, and then at the end 00:12:06.510 --> 00:12:11.100 of it you just go, thanks, I have no idea whether you're thinking, thanks, that 00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:13.350 was terrible, or, thanks, that was great. 00:12:13.680 --> 00:12:16.650 So you have to exaggerate your positivity. 00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:21.585 You have to be very careful about your negativity because I found 00:12:21.585 --> 00:12:25.965 that if I am multitasking, if you're briefing me and you spent a lot 00:12:25.965 --> 00:12:29.295 of time and I'm down looking at my computer or I'm talking to the person 00:12:29.295 --> 00:12:33.585 next to me, one, it's disrespectful and it's embarrassing to you. 00:12:34.185 --> 00:12:38.475 And two, it just, it makes you not want to communicate and so 00:12:38.475 --> 00:12:40.125 it becomes really difficult. 00:12:40.725 --> 00:12:45.525 And finally, if you got bad news to communicate, that's gotta be done 00:12:45.525 --> 00:12:50.865 very carefully because if you've got a group of people and someone does 00:12:50.865 --> 00:12:52.755 something and you sort of take 'em on. 00:12:53.115 --> 00:12:56.055 It's not like in a room where at the end of the meeting you can walk to 00:12:56.055 --> 00:12:58.995 the end of the table and put your hand on their shoulder and go to the 00:12:58.995 --> 00:13:01.214 coffee maker or something like that. 00:13:01.574 --> 00:13:08.115 They are going to literally stew in what they think was your negative impression. 00:13:08.385 --> 00:13:10.125 And so it becomes very important. 00:13:10.125 --> 00:13:13.334 And then the last thing, in big groups, you even have to watch your 00:13:13.334 --> 00:13:17.745 facial expressions 'cause somebody's briefing you and I used to take my 00:13:17.745 --> 00:13:23.010 glasses off and go like this, and the chat rooms would light up and they'd 00:13:23.010 --> 00:13:24.480 say, what's bothering the old man? 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.990 Well, sometimes I just had to wipe my face off, but I became sensitive 00:13:27.990 --> 00:13:32.580 to the fact that without being in the room, they are relying on fewer 00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:36.360 cues, and so they over-index on those. 00:13:37.079 --> 00:13:42.540 So I think we've all gotta make a real conscious effort to understand 00:13:42.540 --> 00:13:44.099 that virtual is not the same. 00:13:44.579 --> 00:13:47.550 And a lot of people say, no, we're a virtual society now. 00:13:47.550 --> 00:13:48.839 We don't need to be in person. 00:13:49.170 --> 00:13:54.599 My counter to that is we found out during COVID that remote education for 00:13:54.599 --> 00:13:56.395 our children doesn't work very well. 00:13:56.729 --> 00:13:58.290 And you say, well, that's kids. 00:13:58.290 --> 00:13:59.370 No, that's all of us. 00:13:59.939 --> 00:14:03.989 We ought to pay attention to that because if it didn't work, hasn't worked 00:14:03.989 --> 00:14:09.870 in education, why do we want to tell ourselves we're as effective, remotely 00:14:10.020 --> 00:14:12.300 working as we want to believe we are? 00:14:12.569 --> 00:14:14.939 Matt Abrahams: That last point is a really important one because if you think 00:14:14.939 --> 00:14:18.569 about it, you have teachers who have been trained in ways to communicate and to 00:14:18.569 --> 00:14:22.290 connect, and if they can't make it work, how can we expect those of us who don't 00:14:22.290 --> 00:14:24.260 have that training to be able to do it. 00:14:24.829 --> 00:14:26.870 So several things there that you said are really important. 00:14:26.870 --> 00:14:29.060 I'm gonna start with the nonverbal presence. 00:14:29.060 --> 00:14:33.500 When we have fewer cues, we really pay attention to them and we have to make sure 00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:37.370 that we do things as simple as looking at the camera when we're talking to people, 00:14:37.520 --> 00:14:42.500 reminding ourselves that what we do signals information, not just what we say. 00:14:42.760 --> 00:14:48.010 The fact that you would go out of your way to build connection and comfort is really 00:14:48.010 --> 00:14:53.560 important because when we don't have that preexisting relationship, it really is 00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:56.440 mandatory that we actually try to connect. 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:00.400 And I love that you would not only connect with the person by identifying their name. 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.910 But at the end, you would check in with them through asking a question. 00:15:03.910 --> 00:15:05.920 Others paraphrase or summarize. 00:15:06.130 --> 00:15:08.860 There's a lot you can do to signal that you're interested 00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:10.060 and that you heard the person. 00:15:10.060 --> 00:15:12.610 And being virtual really forces us to do that. 00:15:12.610 --> 00:15:14.440 So thank you for those best practices. 00:15:14.830 --> 00:15:19.165 In your latest book, On Character, which I love and think is really important, 00:15:19.165 --> 00:15:20.845 especially in this day and time. 00:15:21.205 --> 00:15:23.635 You argue that character is iterative. 00:15:23.695 --> 00:15:27.085 It's built through a succession of choices and actions. 00:15:27.295 --> 00:15:31.555 How can individuals leverage their everyday action and communication 00:15:31.825 --> 00:15:35.005 as tools for their own personal development of their character? 00:15:35.005 --> 00:15:35.065 General Stanley McChrystal: Yeah. 00:15:36.135 --> 00:15:38.954 I feel very strongly about that, Matt, and thanks for the kind words. 00:15:39.165 --> 00:15:43.844 We start something, think of a diet you start, or you quit smoking, or you 00:15:43.844 --> 00:15:47.895 make some other promise to yourself, I am going to do something differently 00:15:47.895 --> 00:15:51.194 than the way I've done it that's gonna make me a better person in some ways. 00:15:51.375 --> 00:15:56.564 As you do those things, typically the longer you go, the more reason 00:15:56.564 --> 00:15:58.180 you have not to break the strength. 00:15:59.070 --> 00:16:02.160 If you've been on your diet for two days, you can break it 00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:02.910 and you don't feel that bad. 00:16:02.910 --> 00:16:06.240 If you've been on it for two months, you say, I don't wanna break 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.370 this because I really feel good. 00:16:08.910 --> 00:16:11.700 On character the same way applies. 00:16:11.970 --> 00:16:14.280 Some of them are just simply habits. 00:16:14.790 --> 00:16:18.390 I am going to be honest, and you might say, no, wait a minute. 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:19.470 I'm an honest person. 00:16:19.470 --> 00:16:20.820 I don't have to remind myself. 00:16:21.150 --> 00:16:22.680 We do have to remind ourselves. 00:16:23.085 --> 00:16:28.125 We have to remind ourselves what we mean by integrity, how honest we 00:16:28.125 --> 00:16:32.564 intend to be in every interaction, and we have to hold ourselves to that. 00:16:32.835 --> 00:16:38.265 How we treat people, the respect we show for people, the grace we give to people. 00:16:38.850 --> 00:16:42.930 Again, it's something where we have to establish a clear standard and says, 00:16:43.230 --> 00:16:47.880 my standard for dealing with this kind of people in this kind of situation is 00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:50.280 this, and I am not gonna violate it. 00:16:50.430 --> 00:16:55.110 Now, you will find you get tired or irritable and you might, but 00:16:55.110 --> 00:16:56.640 that can't reset the standard. 00:16:56.910 --> 00:17:00.120 What you've gotta do is you say, my standard is this. 00:17:00.270 --> 00:17:01.380 I didn't do that. 00:17:01.380 --> 00:17:03.270 I'm gonna, that's a mistake. 00:17:03.885 --> 00:17:05.714 I will try not to do that again. 00:17:06.135 --> 00:17:11.655 But we have a series of things that become almost like the rules of civility that 00:17:11.655 --> 00:17:15.555 George Washington made so famous when he wrote 'em down when he was a young 00:17:15.555 --> 00:17:19.485 man, and some of 'em are very basic, but they were just reminders to him. 00:17:19.995 --> 00:17:22.155 There's certain things you do and don't do. 00:17:22.395 --> 00:17:23.745 We need the same for ourselves. 00:17:24.225 --> 00:17:25.065 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:17:25.125 --> 00:17:29.535 And you highlight something that you talk about, this say, do gap, how you have to 00:17:29.535 --> 00:17:32.835 commit to something and then you actually have to show it and demonstrate it. 00:17:34.485 --> 00:17:37.845 Before we end, I like to ask everybody three questions. 00:17:37.845 --> 00:17:41.205 One I create just for you and the other two I've been asking people for 00:17:41.205 --> 00:17:42.675 as long as we've been doing this show. 00:17:42.675 --> 00:17:43.485 Are you up for that? 00:17:43.545 --> 00:17:44.115 General Stanley McChrystal: Sure. 00:17:44.715 --> 00:17:45.195 Matt Abrahams: Alright. 00:17:45.615 --> 00:17:48.375 I've done a fair amount of work with the US military and intelligence 00:17:48.435 --> 00:17:52.935 agencies, and they're known for very structured communication with briefings. 00:17:53.085 --> 00:17:56.504 For those of us who are outside the military, what are one or 00:17:56.504 --> 00:18:01.605 two valuable communication skills that you learned that help you be 00:18:01.605 --> 00:18:03.054 successful in the things that you did? 00:18:03.990 --> 00:18:05.730 General Stanley McChrystal: The first is to be very clear. 00:18:05.730 --> 00:18:07.530 You know, we'd call it bottom line, up front. 00:18:07.770 --> 00:18:10.710 Say what you're trying to communicate, don't obfuscate 00:18:10.710 --> 00:18:12.480 it, and a bunch of other data. 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.000 Just say, X is X, and that's what I think. 00:18:15.210 --> 00:18:19.650 The second is, understand that there is a hierarchical 00:18:19.650 --> 00:18:22.590 pressure for a certain outcome. 00:18:22.620 --> 00:18:26.010 Sometimes people have a briefing because they want to get a certain 00:18:26.010 --> 00:18:29.520 answer, and you've gotta understand that that's not your role. 00:18:30.345 --> 00:18:33.345 Matt Abrahams: So managing and maybe even pushing back against those 00:18:33.345 --> 00:18:35.505 conformity pressures is really important. 00:18:35.505 --> 00:18:38.205 And again, clarity, and make sure that what you're saying is 00:18:38.205 --> 00:18:40.425 upfront, not buried in the details. 00:18:40.665 --> 00:18:41.115 General Stanley McChrystal: That's right. 00:18:41.235 --> 00:18:43.905 Matt Abrahams: Question number two, and I'll be very curious to hear your answer. 00:18:43.905 --> 00:18:47.055 Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:18:47.625 --> 00:18:50.625 General Stanley McChrystal: There are a number of very effective communicators. 00:18:50.655 --> 00:18:54.825 If you go back to someone like Franklin Delano Roosevelt or Abraham 00:18:54.825 --> 00:18:58.815 Lincoln, they had a very measured cadence in communicating with the 00:18:58.815 --> 00:19:04.335 American people, and they always tied it to values and general goals. 00:19:04.545 --> 00:19:08.595 And so like Franklin Roosevelt at the beginning of his first term, you know, 00:19:08.595 --> 00:19:12.135 depths of the depression, he's trying to communicate hope, he's trying to 00:19:12.135 --> 00:19:16.545 communicate action, he's trying to communicate we are all in this together. 00:19:16.695 --> 00:19:22.695 And so I find when I read and listen to the old recordings of that, a real 00:19:22.695 --> 00:19:26.895 sense of he knew what he was trying to accomplish with communication. 00:19:27.315 --> 00:19:30.225 He wasn't just communicating for the joy of it. 00:19:30.524 --> 00:19:33.105 And so I admire people with that kind of discipline. 00:19:33.645 --> 00:19:37.605 Matt Abrahams: So it's the discipline, the focus, and attaching it to bigger values, 00:19:37.665 --> 00:19:41.680 and not surprising for somebody who has studied and thought a lot about character. 00:19:42.284 --> 00:19:46.395 Our final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into 00:19:46.395 --> 00:19:48.705 a successful communication recipe? 00:19:48.705 --> 00:19:51.915 I can almost be sure that clarity is going to be part of that. 00:19:52.334 --> 00:19:55.215 General Stanley McChrystal: Yeah, it's gotta be timely and it's gotta 00:19:55.215 --> 00:20:00.135 be genuine because at some point, whether or not we believe what we're 00:20:00.135 --> 00:20:04.635 communicating matters, we may get out and think we can disassemble in 00:20:04.635 --> 00:20:08.445 front of a bunch of people and they'll buy it, but over time it comes back. 00:20:08.445 --> 00:20:13.004 So if you don't believe it, it is problematic to stand up there and say it. 00:20:13.510 --> 00:20:18.915 Matt Abrahams: Clarity, timeliness, and genuine and authenticity really important. 00:20:19.455 --> 00:20:23.955 Well, thank you General McChrystal for your time and for your insight and 00:20:23.955 --> 00:20:27.405 for the good work you are doing around character and character building. 00:20:27.435 --> 00:20:29.625 Clearly in our time that's very important. 00:20:29.625 --> 00:20:32.145 I appreciate the learnings and the lessons. 00:20:32.655 --> 00:20:33.825 General Stanley McChrystal: You're kind to have me, Matt. 00:20:33.825 --> 00:20:34.245 Thank you. 00:20:37.335 --> 00:20:39.375 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:20:39.375 --> 00:20:41.715 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:20:42.105 --> 00:20:46.995 To learn more about high stakes leadership under pressure, listen to episode 155 with 00:20:46.995 --> 00:20:50.195 Susan Rice or Episode 161 with Jen Psaki. 00:20:50.804 --> 00:20:55.514 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:20:56.565 --> 00:20:58.215 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:20:58.365 --> 00:21:00.764 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:01.335 --> 00:21:04.485 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:04.665 --> 00:21:06.735 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:21:07.004 --> 00:21:10.335 Also follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and TikTok. 00:21:10.575 --> 00:21:14.835 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:21:14.835 --> 00:21:17.085 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:21:17.655 --> 00:21:21.225 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:21:21.315 --> 00:21:26.635 Ask Matt Anythings, and much more, at fastersmarter.io/premium.