Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin.
Rob: And me, Rob.
Kevin: And we're here to talk about Star Trek Discovery,
Season 5, Episode 8, Labyrinths.
I love a good library.
I have to say, I've just, as soon as this episode was teased, I was like, I am in.
Rob: A good, endless library.
Kevin: Mazes, books, knickknacks on shelves, what could
Rob: Shelves of books that go to infinity, different levels, you
know, spiral staircases up and down, I love those, ladders you
have on a pulley system to move it
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, slide along the wall on a track.
Rob: Yeah, Nothing more romantic than a beautiful library.
Kevin: Now that you mention it, I regret the missed opportunity of someone
with a phaser rifle sliding down a wall on a ladder, taking out Breen.
Rob: Look, you're just making it even harder for me to like Discovery now.
You've just given an awesome idea.
Why didn't they think of that?
Spent too much time in Breen cargo bays.
Kevin: Well, why don't you give us your high level thoughts on this episode, Rob?
Rob: Yes, so we, uh, we got to the point where they've gone to get the final piece
of the Progenitor's tech, and of course, as always it has to go inside the person
who's looking for it and whether they are worthy enough, they themselves, are
they advanced enough, are they, aware of themselves enough and the universe
around them to handle such awesome power.
Kevin: Yeah, it has all been leading up to that, right?
Like, we've been teasing the Betazoids for a while now.
There was the, there was the red herring that sent the, uh, the
people to Betazed if they didn't read the whole message early on.
And then we've, we've had the tease that one of the scientists was Betazoid, and
now finally we're, what kind of test would a Betazoid leave for future generations?
An introspection test, it appears.
Rob: Of course, the only person who can handle that is a person who has never
had any internal thoughts or debates with themselves about their own personality
their emotions and how they feel.
So, um, surprise, surprise, Michael Burnham had to step up and have a
deep look inside herself, which she hasn't done for the last five seasons.
All this is going on, uh, while, you know, the Breen are chasing
Discovery into the Badlands.
Within the Badlands there's a little pocket where there's
this library that stores all information of all civilizations.
Uh, we see a creature that I believe is connected to a race that was
appearing in Star Trek Beyond?
I'm not sure.
I think that was what I heard somewhere.
Kevin: If you're talking about a, a movie reference, the only one I picked is that
this, the, the representative of the library is the same race as the federation
president in some of the late TOS movies.
Rob: There you go.
I might have misread stuff online.
Who would have thought?
Kevin: Gotcha, gotcha.
Rob: But she was very good.
Kevin: So overall, liked it?
Disliked it?
How you feeling about it?
Rob: It was, it was what came to pass.
It was everything that was meant to be.
As in, of course, the, uh, the embodiment of this, uh, program system is, of course,
it has to be Book, and so while Burnham is looking deep within herself, she is
looking at the reflection of The, you know, the one true man that loved and does
Kevin: I thought for sure the answer was in that book.
The whole time he's sitting there at that table, like, meaningfully turning
the page and then turning it back again.
I'm going like, go read what he's reading, I'm sure the clue is there.
But no, I was wrong.
It was just another red herring.
Rob: I thought the stuff with the Breen was quite interesting and there was sort
of like, you know, the balance of power and the fighting going on there and,
Moll's, uh, Moll's ascension to power.
Um, the more I'm seeing of Moll, the less impressed I am.
She's a bit one note for me as a character and a performance,
Kevin: Yeah, I feel that too.
Rob: But I love the machinations within the Breen culture being brought out more.
Kevin: Yeah, I want her to be more likable than she is.
Rob: She's not very likable.
Yeah.
Yeah, I have found that she's just like one note and I'm there going I need a bit
of depth, I need a bit of range to you.
I get it that you're in love with this character that we've only
seen for a couple of episodes.
I'm not as invested in, uh, her character as she believes that we
are, or the writers hope that we are.
But I am liking, I'm, I'm starting to like… I'm getting
used to the Breen new masks.
I'm kind of liking their new appearance now.
I'm liking the details of sort of like the, you know, the, the things on the side
of the face and, and the structure of it.
Yeah.
Kevin: I think of them as mutton chops.
Rob: Yeah, we're in a very colonial era of, uh, Breen history so.
How about you?
How did you find it?
Kevin: Look, yeah, it was more of the same for me.
It was a visual spectacle this episode, like the Badlands new incarnation was
really impressive, then the the blue cloud space inside with the library inside.
Even just shots like the Breen, um, hitting the shields of the library
and then punching through the shields and a big explosion of fire behind it.
And Discovery at the end, jumping out at the same time as it's venting warp plasma
and, and its shuttle bay and then landing in the new space with all of this detritus
and emissions like pouring out of it.
It looks so, so touchable, so organic.
It has stopped feeling like CG to me and it's, it's got that weight of
reality to it that I am really enjoying.
So if nothing else, the visual effects were on point this episode.
I, as we were going through it, I liked Burnham's attempts to work out the puzzle,
uh, and the way it ended in the end of, oh, you just had to sit down and look
honestly yourself, it worked for me on first viewing, but I think on second
viewing, the amount of time she spends pouring white sand around corridors and
trying to get Book to give her a clue, it all feels a bit, um, like wasted time
that could have been used for something better in this very short season.
Rob: It's always a tricky thing when you've got a quest at this size,
that's spanning entire season, and you're trying to prove yourself
to be worthy of a certain thing.
And there's always, in every quest adventure, whether it be The Neverending
Story, whether it be Lord of the Rings or something like that, there is that
moment where, whether obviously or quite subtly, that lead character
has that moment where the ultimate challenge is, is to face themself.
Kevin: And it worked for me.
That moment in the dark with Book, where she, you know, her eyes are full of tears,
and she is admitting some hard truths to herself, like, I take your point, Rob,
that Michael Burnham has never been above self analysis, and this show is constantly
making explicit the emotional subtext of every single thing that happens.
So it perhaps didn't have the weight of, oh, this is a character—
Like if, if Picard had had a moment like this just before a season finale
or before the series finale, it would have had me in tears, I think.
For Michael, it had me emotionally affected, but it did not feel like
something we have never seen before.
It just worked.
It worked for me, but it wasn't special.
Rob: I'm kind of starting to dig, uh, Book a bit more.
Kevin: Oh yeah, and the line, Is your name really Book?
Rob: Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh.
Um, so yes, and I'm liking how there's a true sense of vulnerability when it comes
to Burnham, which I really appreciate, when it comes to her connection with
Book and her relationship with Book.
That kind of stuff I kind of like.
Um, that I'm there going, there's something there, that's something there,
um, that isn't just all caught up in the glory of, of the smugness of it.
There's a true self reflection of what have I done.
Kevin: They've had to work hard to create it, but I feel like they've gotten there.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
Kevin: I, I finally care about whether Book redeems himself or not.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean obviously I missed that entire season, but I
Kevin: Oh, right.
Rob: Um, that's all, that's the season four stuff that I've been caught
up with you, thank you very much.
Um, but it's definitely setting the table and getting ourselves ready for
our final two episodes, and so now we're in a position where Burnham,
uh, is not so closed off anymore and wants to talk this through.
Who would have thought?
Talk this through with Book about their journey, and how that connects to now
they're crippled there, however many light years away from their destination
with the Breen on track and you know messages are going out it's all shaping
itself for our final two episodes.
So in that way didn't feel like a placeholder.
It seemed very much contained and a episode that stood on its own, but there
was a good laying of the foundation for where we go for our final two episodes.
Kevin: I liked the hat tip to The Inner Light, when, uh, Burnham's
knocked out by that little card in the book where we hear from, I think
it's Hugh Culber, who says there's a nucleonic beam that's connected to her.
And that's the same type of beam that knocks out Captain
Picard in The Inner Light.
So, um, that was a nice nod to, to the past.
And, uh, oh, great to see Rhys in the captain's chair.
Good to see some chair time for one of our bridge crew.
Rob: He looked very good.
He looked very and strong, and I also love that moment of as soon as Burnham, uh, you
know, teleports back on, boom, he's out.
Like, none of slow, casual thing that's a immediate, it's, it's not even a panic.
It's just this instinctual move.
I'm there going, good, good, good, good, good.
Kevin: I'm done here.
Yeah.
It's efficient.
It's military.
It's great.
Rob: Heh heh heh heh heh heh.
Kevin: They don't stop to have a conversation about how his
time in the captain's chair was.
Rob: Well, yeah, because he's a supporting character, you know, you know, he, you
know, he doesn't get any of that, so.
They might, they might realize it later and go, oh shit, and so next episode
they may cram in a five minute Oh, how do you feel about being on this?
Kevin: Have you ever played Dungeons and Dragons, Rob?
Rob: That is my, one of my big nerd regrets.
I'm not saying it's my big life regret, but it is a big nerd regret that I
have never been involved in a campaign.
One of my
Kevin: Ooh, there's still time.
There's still
Rob: There is.
One of my favorite episodes of one of my favorite TV shows, Community,
is Advanced Dungeons Dragons, which is, one of the greatest episodes of
television ever written for a nerd.
And just how they do the whole campaign and it's all about talking
and chatting and bartering and explaining those who are addicted to
the game, those who are new to it.
But adding in the soundscapes around it so you feel the
imagination of each character work.
Um, that's always, that's been the only, that's been, not Stranger Things, not
friends trying to convince me, it's just been watching Community going,
I should probably do that one time.
Yeah.
Kevin: Well, Burnham's time in the mindscape felt to me like a flavor of
a moment that is uniquely tabletop RPG, where the dungeon master is sitting at
the end of the table and knows exactly what the characters are supposed to do in
order to progress the story, but there are five brains sitting around the rest of the
table going, What do you want us to do?
What are we supposed to do next?
And the dungeon master goes, Just do something.
And they're like, something is so broad.
Should we go to the pub?
Should we, Get a bucket of white sand and make a line that we can follow?
Like, yeah, her thrashing in the mindscape felt exactly like I feel in
those moments in a Dungeons and Dragons campaign where I don't know what to do.
I just want someone to tell me, here's the button you're supposed to press
to unlock the rest of the story.
Rob: And the Book avatar was the dungeon master there with the
book in front of them going, Oh, I'm not sharing this with you.
You got to figure it out all yourself.
Kevin: So yes, that, that's, that was the vibe of this episode.
The, um, the after show talked about how these scenes were shot in a real library.
They make a big deal out of how it's like the third most important
library for the English language in terms of the rare texts that it has.
And one of the, one of the books in this library is the first or the oldest known
English book, book written in English.
And, uh, as we were watching those very CG filled, uh, scenes of the library
with floors upon floors and, like, that goes on forever, I was trying
to pick, like, what of all this is that real library that they shot in?
Like, was it just that one room where she's sitting in at the table
with Book, and even that has a bunch of green screen panels that
are creating infinity beyond it?
We're used to seeing things shot in that void where the LED walls in the background
are providing the camera-matched movement for the background.
But they, they weren't doing that this episode, or at least they weren't
doing that for some of this episode.
It's really hard to pick.
What the real place that was used here?
Rob: Yeah, for me, if you're gonna be promoting the fact that
you're in the third most important library in the world, great.
Make sure you show it in a way that we know what's what as a, yeah, it very
filtered with a lot of CGI stuff, so I had no idea it was actual real location.
It felt like a,
Kevin: I'm sure the people who work there are watching it going that is amazing.
There is a small corner of a real room in that scene.
Rob: See that shelf?
That's our shelf!
Kevin: is real you wouldn't think it but it's real.
Rob: So, yeah, anything else you want to add or say about Labyrinths?
Kevin: No, I'm good.
I think, uh, I think that covers it well.
Like, there's not a whole lot to say about this because I think so much of
it was fast paced action y beats that were, like, really enjoyable to watch
but not, not super deep to analyze for
Rob: And there was that balance of the action y stuff, but also the
contemplative stuff, that's a good, a good job of, um, uh, keeping that pace
balanced while having the more intimate scenes, of Burnham, uh, matching that
with space battles and, and running through corridors and shooting stuff.
Kevin: The topic that we picked out of this episode is that, that moment
where the captain is on their own.
Like, they are disconnected from their ship and crew, the resources
that are usually at their disposal to resolve a situation are absent,
and it is Captain on their own.
Uh, we have previously done an episode called When the Captain's Away.
That was episode 31 of Subspace Radio.
And so this is kind of the flip side of that.
We previously looked at the crew when there's no captain.
Now we're going to look at the captain when there's no crew.
Rob: Yeah.
And for both of these, it was incredibly difficult to find, uh, find a home with
my home of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, because like Sisko is pretty much in every
single episode and he's always present.
And there's hardly the pretty much none that we could find where he goes off and
everyone else has left all these devices.
Same here as well, because he's such a team player.
Um, I could only find two and those two from Deep Space Nine are
ones we've already talked about.
Kevin: What were they?
Rob: Um, they were, uh, they were Waltz, which we have talked about before,
Kevin: That was a cave episode when we talked about cave episodes, Sisko and
Dukat, or, or crazed Dukat in a cave.
Rob: Yes, with the voices, uh, all the, the people from his life speaking to
him he is fully and absolutely unhinged.
Marc Alaimo does incredible work there, and Sisko is of course injured.
Um, and of course the other one was, uh, one of the greatest episodes of
Star Trek and Deep Space Nine ever done, uh, in the Pale Moon Light, where,
Kevin: Ah, yeah, yeah.
Interesting that one that Sisko is almost metaphorically on his own in that one.
Like he is addressing to camera, he's playing in a lot of solo scenes, but he
is relaying the events that took place on the station with his crew around him,
but he kind of like, the fact that he is acting independently and he is making this
momentous decision to, uh, to mislead the Romulan Star Empire, and he's taking all
of that on his own shoulders is like he is alone among his crew in that episode.
Rob: Exactly.
And what, yeah, when you're at your loneliest point, there's only one
person turn to, and that's Garak.
Kevin: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, that's right.
You're never alone if you've got a simple tailor on board,
Rob: that you can beat the crap out of when you're angry at for line,
Kevin: Okay, so we're pushing past Deep Space Nine because
apparently Sisko is a team player.
He never works without his crew.
Rob: The best team player, yeah.
Kevin: Well, what's the first one that you found for us?
Rob: Okay, um, I think I have said this to you.
I think we do need to change the title of, uh, our podcast from Subspace Radio
to Rob Does His Star Trek Homework.
So, this week I am focusing on two must see episodes of Star
Trek that I had never seen before.
And now I have seen them, so now I know what they're about.
Kevin: Are they still must see?
Like, at the risk of spoiling it,
Rob: One definitely is.
Kevin: Okay, good.
Rob: Um, there's a lot in the other one that, you know, has
reflections on Star Trek forever.
Kevin: It's the start of a lot of things…
Rob: Yeah.
Um, so yes, let's go way back to, to those old scientists.
Let's go back to Season 1, Episode 18 of Star Trek, the original
series, with one word title.
Arena.
Kevin: Yes.
Rob: This is, um, our first appearance of the Gorn.
Now, we've talked a lot about this episode and I've been
satelliting around this episode.
I've been, sort of like, orbiting around it while all the rest of you have been
within the planet discussing this episode
Kevin: They keep bringing back the Gorn and going, Rob,
you should know what this is.
Rob: Yes, I should know what this is.
And, after all my love of the Gorn in, uh, Strange New Worlds, Season 1
and 2, it's a interesting experience to go back to where it all started.
And just like we talked about with, um, the first ever Mirror Universe episode,
it's very much not about the Gorn at all.
The Gorn are just a thing.
It's, it's a leading to what it is to be a captain of a ship, what it is to
be, um, a human, and what it is to, uh, be a civilized, uh, representation of
enlightened culture, or something that.
So it's very much a case of, the Gorn are a means to an end.
They're not the, the focus of the episode, even though they have become
this new boogeyman lead villain, arch villain, uh, or antagonist
within, uh, Strange New Worlds.
Kevin: Yeah, it's interesting.
The original point of the Gorn, and Kirk comes right out and says it in one
of his log entries in this episode, is like, I think he says something like,
like, most humans I have an instinctive revulsion to reptiles, and I have to
keep reminding myself that this is a sentient being, a captain of a starship.
And that is very much the moral of this episode is, can we, as evolved
humans, overcome our instinctive prejudices and see, see a person
in something that is alien.
Rob: Yes, because um, after a skirmish on an outer colony where the Gorn
have absolutely destroyed everything and everyone who lived on that
Kevin: I love those scenes of the blasted surface of that, uh, that planet.
Um, it feels very, like, unusually expansive.
They, they set dressed a whole parking lot or something.
Rob: That opening, that that shot when they come back or the the
final shot before the credits or of the opening titles or that opening
shot after the titles which is just like on a crane, looking down
at the desolation of the colony,
Kevin: Yeah, it's a beautiful camera move, like they beam down and the camera's
looking down on them and everything at first glance looks normal and then the
camera descends and tilts up and you see the destruction all around them.
It's really cinematic.
Rob: Yes.
So, um, this, uh, colony is wiped out, uh, by a mysterious race, uh,
that we don't see or hear from.
Their ship can't be seen, and there's a chase that ensues across, uh, the
galaxy to hunt them down for what they did, and Kirk is very bloodthirsty here.
He's a
Kevin: Yeah, he is.
He's out for revenge.
Rob: Lot of talk in this episode, which I haven't heard much about.
Save the ship, save the ship, you gotta look after the ship.
It's my ship, my ship.
Um, and it's quite interesting watching it now, how precious the ship is to him,
where in future episodes, how many times have we seen, seen the Enterprise get
blown up and put back together again.
But, uh, it turns out that both spaceships have been, have entered a domain that
is ruled by this higher presence,
Kevin: The Metrons.
Rob: And they are, um, they are judging both races on their lack
of civility and morality and, um, how bloodthirsty they are.
Kevin: Yeah, it's a fun little thing of like, they're chasing each other
at high warp and they keep like, Go a little faster, go a little
faster, you're gonna fly us apart!
And then it's like, there's an uncharted, uh, star system off to our left.
We're, we're passing it.
I'm sure that won't amount to anything.
Rob: It's Chekhov's star system.
Kevin: And then the beams come.
Rob: I did like the whole thing of like it got to the point where they
said we're going to warp eight.
And everyone goes, warp eight?
And I've gone, I've seen Star Trek IV.
Kevin: That's not a number!
That's the look on their faces.
Eight?
We've never used that number before.
Rob: This is me watching and saying, they go to warp ten, alright?
They slingshot around the, slingshot around the sun.
I've seen Star Trek IV.
Come on.
Kevin: I have to ask you, Rob, as a fresh viewer for the first time of this episode,
did it seem to you that the Gorn were a race that was familiar to Starfleet?
Rob: Um.
No.
Kevin: Because keep in mind, canonically, this episode takes place after all the
stuff we've seen in Strange New Worlds.
Rob: Yeah.
Exactly.
And so that's what I was trying to, compartmentalize in my head of going,
this is canonical, but it's also not.
Kevin: Scotty crash landed on a planet that was overtaken by the Gorn and helped
Captain Pike get out of that situation.
Scotty is surprisingly tight lipped about this experience on the
Rob: He has not gone, it's those creatures.
Remember, Spock?
We were, we had to go through this whole thing with our previous captain.
Does anybody else, anybody else still here that knows?
We've met these guys before.
We know, hey, hey, I know that guy.
Kevin: But they tread a surprisingly fine line.
Like when I was listening for it, they never say anything that makes it
impossible that we've met the Gorn before.
They talk about, they are flying into a, um, an unknown area of space.
They talk about how this, there, this area of space has had rumors of unusual
signals, but they never say the Gorn are a previously unencountered race, or
we've never heard of them before, even when the name the Gorn is revealed.
The Metrons say they are known as the Gorn, and no one says, Wow,
thanks for filling us in, we had no idea what they were called.
They all kind of just keep their peace, and it allows for that thread
to be woven in Strange New Worlds.
That actually, yes, the Starfleet and the Federation has had
dealings with the Gorn before.
Rob: Look, it's a very delicate.
Line of retconning that, uh, Star Trek are doing here, uh, are doing with
the current, uh, Strange New Worlds.
It's very similar to the thin lines of retconning that was done in Star Wars
with the prequels, so that it's never actually said, now, Obi Wan Kenobi
never actually says when he sees R2 D2 in New Hope and goes hello my friend,
you know, don't be worried about him.
He'll be alright.
He doesn't go shit R2.
I remember you.
I've known you for like so many years, and I haven't seen you for 15.
How you doing?
He doesn't say hi.
But he doesn't acknowledge that I've never met this thing before
Kevin: He doesn't not say hi.
Rob: He doesn't not not, yeah, he goes, says, I don't remember owning a droid,
and technically he didn't own R2.
It was Anakin, they're going, they're, they're playing, they're doing a
waltz and a ballet of retconning here, Star Trek, and, you know, they did
not say that, so, I had to put that on the back burner and just enjoy it
for what it was of this, you know,
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: fighting the human instinct of repulsion to survive but also try and
be compassionate and so in the end his compassion wins out and it's a
very 60s sci fi thing of the beautiful young boy appearing on the high rock
at the end going, I may look young.
But I'm actually old.
I, and I'll come back in a couple of thousand years to see how you are.
And that's happened before in previous episodes as well.
And future episodes, we've talked about well.
I can't remember the specific name of it or what, maybe it was an anim, it
was an animated one, an animated one.
They go, we'll come back in 30, 000 years and you'll be ready us.
Kevin: It was the big snuffle the pink snuffleupagus
Rob: My favorite of the animated ones.
There you go.
Kevin: So we've skipped over it, but like my overriding memory of this episode is
Kirk fighting the Gorn on the planet.
How much of this episode is that and, and how did that part feel to you?
Rob: Surprisingly, it's, it's, it's in the second half.
Kevin: Oh right.
Rob: I thought it'd take up a majority of the whole episode, but you know, our
first section is all about, you know, being on the colony, talking to the lone
survivor, then it moves into the chase scene, so it's not until about halfway
through that we get into the arena actual fight at Vasquez Rocks, um, and then it
Kevin: Yes, it is.
Vasquez Rocks, of course.
Rob: God bless Vasquez Rocks, or whatever God you represent.
But my favorite, my favorite part was, it's already, we've already had Menagerie
in Season 1, which is pretty much a Star Trek episode watching another Star
Trek episode, and this becomes another thing of just the entire crew of the
Enterprise just sitting and watching TV.
Kevin: And, uh, if memory serves, Spock is very, uh, he's shouting
at the TV for most of the time.
Do this!
Find that!
Rob: He's being very Gogglebox, going, yes, figure it out, Jim, yes, you
know you can do with that, if you just need some coal, find the coal, Jim.
Kevin: Oh yes, they make, uh, he makes gunpowder.
Rob: He does, he
Kevin: The, the, uh, the pieces, the building blocks for gunpowder are very
conspicuously strewn across the ground on this, uh, version of Vasquez Rocks.
Rob: Yes, apparently there's bamboo in a desert, so a
Kevin: of bamboo,
Rob: crop of bamboo just so happens to be there.
Everything you need to create an old school gun is there for you.
Kevin: Speaking of, uh, dungeon masters, the Metrons kind of say, There will be
everything you need to create weapons.
But, in hindsight, it was everything you need to create weapon.
It was a very specific weapon they had in mind for Kirk or the Gorn to make.
Was just, who was going to get there first?
Rob: Look, and um, me as a Doctor Who fan, you need to be able to suspend
your disbelief at some point because you're going, it will not match up with
how technology has advanced special effects wise and stuff like that.
So even fight sequences where you, you see them moving in slow motion
but you know they are in real time.
So some of those, um, you know, punches and swings and stuff like that is very
I'm there going, why is it so slow?
Like, even even barroom fights in Westerns at that time were fast paced throwing
and yeah, I was just there going, yeah, just the slow graze and the slow duck.
Um, but
Kevin: get the feeling Kirk could defeat him at just a casual
stroll off into the distance.
Rob: Well, isn't that a, um, it's a Monty Python gag, isn't it?
Just running around while someone armour is trying to chase you,
and then they have a heart attack.
So you win because outrun them death.
Um, yeah, it definitely lifts up when they are doing a bit more cat and mouse.
When they're in the same space throwing very, very obviously Paper Mâché
rocks at each other, it struggles.
But once you go into the psychological process of like, even, the Gorn speaks!
Why haven't our Gorn started speaking?
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Hiss type of thing.
Captain, I will make it quick and easy, make will make it
a honorable quick deaaaath.
Kevin: The, how, how does Kirk operate alone in your view?
Like Kirk good on his own?
Rob: It's good, it's good to see him actually use his intelligence, cause,
uh, you know, it's, people have wrongly accused him of just being, you know,
um, a hound dog with the ladies, and, uh, fire first type of stuff.
And there is that bloodthirsty element to him, where Spock has to calm him down
and go, this is, you know, This is not the way, this is not the Federation way.
He's going, we can't let this go unpunished.
We, if they, if we don't stop them, they'll come back and do it again.
But to have him calculate a way out of this, using his intelligence with Spock
there going, you can do this, and he does it, and then that ultimate compassion
at the end, um, is a, it's a, it's a good episode for, for um, James T.
Kirk.
And especially for, um, Shatner does well.
Shatner has to go through some stuff.
His anger, his outrage.
Um, his, his cunning.
His, um, his compassion.
It's, it's all there, which I really appreciate.
And I love the fact they name every single crew member.
They are, they're not just red shirts.
They, they, you know, you know, all, all of them get a name.
They get named, they get spot checked.
It's not just crewman over say what
Kevin: At the start, you mean, on Cestus III.
Rob: the start.
So I like, that's another I really like.
They're not just faceless, nameless crew.
They have a name and Kirk,
Kevin: They have at least one name.
They're like Rogers, Jameson.
Rob: Lang.
But yes, it definitely a good episode to see why he's the captain, why he's been
able to survive this long, why he's been promoted, and why he's such a good leader.
He can, you know, it's a good representation of going, that's our
hero, that's our captain, and that's, you know, he's got the support of his
crew, but he can look after himself.
Kevin: The other thing I remember finding funny about this episode is
that Kirk, like they both he and the Gorn are given a device that they're
told is called a translator recorder device or something like that.
And Kirk uses it to record.
He thinks he's recording log entries, but actually he is sending, he's telling
all of his plans to his opponent.
I feel like there is a allegory about social media in there, that you can't
keep yourself from broadcasting your intentions to the world, you're eventually
going to put your foot in your mouth.
Rob: it is the old gag of you.
You know, you think you've hung up the phone, but it's still on.
You're going, oh gee, that guy's a wanker.
Oh, is this thing still on?
Oh!
Kevin: Maybe it's the weakness of Starfleet that they, they
are addicted to, to log entries.
And so even when they're on their own, Um, if they're given the opportunity, they
can't help themselves from speaking their plans into a device that's there for them.
Rob: That's what the Metron should have said.
Said at the end and going, you know, it's not about you being blood thirsty.
Uh, it's just, you're too goddamn stupid.
We told you a translator.
Why are you, why are you saying your whole plan to the opposition, you idiot?
So yes, so that's a, that was my first experience with, uh, Arena, and
there's a lot there to take away from it, and, and how it represents Star
Trek at that time, but how it's also shaped Star Trek, you know, in general.
Kevin: I'm going to take us to The Next Generation.
And there's a lot of Picard off on his own in various, uh, situations and reasons.
Rob: When got Patrick Stewart, man.
Kevin: Yeah.
It's like it was in his contract once, once per season, I'm going
to have an episode all to myself.
Rob: All to myself.
I, um, I've worked with the Royal Shakespeare Company.
I was in Excalibur.
Um, I am better than this, but I am slumming it for you, Gene, you, Michael.
Kevin: I'm going to take us to the last of these that caught my
interest because it's an episode we haven't talked about and it's a,
it's a particular favorite of mine.
It is called Starship Mine season six, episode 18.
Um, this title has always confused me.
Is it starship mine or starship … mine?
Rob: Haha ha ha!
Is there a comma in there?
Kevin: When you think about it, like the starship is never at risk
of becoming an explosive, really.
I mean, there is, there is a group of terrorists who in this episode have
plotted to steal some trilithium resin from the warp engines of the Enterprise.
And it is a highly explosive substance that they're carrying around in a little,
um, containment device as they chase Captain Picard around the hallways of
the otherwise abandoned Enterprise D.
But that doesn't really justify the word mine in my mind like, there,
there is an explosive substance that is being stolen from the Enterprise.
It does not make the Enterprise itself a mine.
So I think this is maybe a misleading, deliberately misleading title, and,
uh, Starship Mine is really about Picard saying to these terrorists,
No, this starship is mine.
You shall not have it.
This far and no farther.
Rob: Nice.
Kevin: In this episode The entire crew of the Enterprise beams off while the
Enterprise is in this thing called the Remmler Array, and it will be doing a
sweep, a baryon sweep, which is this green force field that will pass from
the very back of the ship to the very front of the ship and clean all the
baryon particles out of the ship, uh, and because it is, uh, fatal to organic
life, everyone has to get off the ship.
There is a reception on the starbase where about half of the action of this
episode happens, and it's all about Data learning small talk, and the
terrorists take over the reception, and that is all very enjoyable, but
for our purposes today we will focus on the action on the Enterprise.
Picard at the last minute goes back to his ship to get his saddle because
he hears there is horse riding available on the nearby planet.
And when he's back on the ship, he sees that there are still some people
on the ship, and they are taking off panels and cutting wires they shouldn't.
Turns out they're terrorists, and, uh, Picard, when he is captured at
first, he identifies himself as Mot, the barber, and he, he plays dumb.
And this, I think, is something that captains sometimes do when
they are on their own, is they pretend they're not the captain.
They're like, oh no, I'm just a lowly ensign.
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Hi yah!
I karate chop you when you're not looking.
So yes, it, it, it's really enjoyable.
Um, notable, one of the terrorists in this episode is played by Tim Russ,
so it is pre-Tuvok Tuvok, and Captain Picard gives him a Vulcan neck pinch.
Years before he plays a Vulcan himself, he gets neck pinched by
Captain Picard, and it is hilarious.
Um,
Rob: And how's Tim Russ do?
How does Tim do in the episode?
Is he, uh
Kevin: Yeah, he's good.
He's good.
He's got this moment where he's like wielding a laser torch because, um, the
Baryon sweep interferes with conventional directed energy, uh, weapons, so
he's using a laser torch to threaten the captain and there's this moment
where he's like, I'm gonna get that guy, and he looks real mean about it,
and I was like, good beat, Tim Russ.
Rob: Ya, Tim.
On ya, Timmy.
Kevin: Uh, yeah, he does some, like, action fighting.
I'm sure he's been replaced by a stuntman at that moment, but I buy
it as a bit of Tim Russ as well.
Um, so yeah, it's good stuff.
I feel like, I have heard that Patrick Stewart said, I want to be an action hero.
Write me an episode where I'm an action hero.
And it is very Die Hard, this episode, like, Picard rolls up his sleeves,
um, he goes to Worf's quarters to get a crossbow, and he dips the tips
in poison, while he's, while he's talking to the terrorists on their
communicator that he has stolen from them.
So he's listening in on their communications and then jumps in
and goes, don't be ridiculous.
You can't carry trilithium resin around this place.
It's very explosive.
Um, I think a new color for the Enterprise cause all the lights are off.
So it's a dark version of the Enterprise.
A new color for Picard who's climbing the walls and, um,
running through Jeffrey's tubes and
Rob: Is he in a singlet?
he in a singlet?
like he was in First Contact?
Kevin: He's in his civvies, like he has,
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: for riding, so he's in his riding outfit for most of this episode.
Rob: When you did mention, Picard pretending to be somebody else,
Kevin: Yeah, he's out of uniform.
Rob: And it's very Die Hard as well with, you know, Alan Rickman
pretending to be Bill Clay with the
Kevin: Exactly!
Exactly like that.
So many of the same beats as Die Hard, but like sometimes reversed
or flipped around or taken in a new direction through sci fi.
So, yeah, it's really enjoyable.
Um, you get to see Picard play another character, catch these terrorists in
a ruse, ultimately, come right out and fighting hand to hand in Ten Forward.
At the culmination of this episode, the Baryon sweep has gone all the way
through the ship and it's just making its way through Ten Forward and Picard
has to like climb up into the triangular windows to avoid it as he's on this
communicator going, Stop the Baryon sweep!
Stop it immediately!
It's, uh, yeah, it's a good time.
I recommend it.
Rob: Well, there you go.
That's a, I'd love to see Patrick Stewart get his John McClane on.
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely.
Rob: Right,
Kevin: Uh, what's next from
Rob: Well, let's stay in the world of, uh, TNG, I know, a rare thing for me
to do, and let's go back, backwards in time, and then, for only a brief
period of about 25 minutes, we'll experience an entire lifetime in
what some people say, is the greatest Star Trek episode ever put to screen.
Kevin: Some people being me sometimes.
Pretty liberal with my best episode ever's, uh, but, The Inner
Light is definitely a good one.
Rob: We are looking at The Inner Light, Season 5, Episode 25, right before we
get to the season finale, Time's Arrow.
A mysterious probe is found out.
A light hits Picard.
A ray hits Picard.
Uh, and, uh, on the ship and he convulses and goes black blacks out and he awakes to
find himself in the life of somebody else.
He has a wife, uh, he is an important member of a community, where their,
their, their soil is dying, and their planet is dying, and he lives an entire
lifetime within the space of 25 minutes, as the crew try and figure out where
this probe comes from, what the light is doing and how they can keep him alive.
It's an incredible hour of television and it's incredible hour of sci fi and
this incredible beautiful balance of what we love about science fiction,
uh, science technobabble, um, science fiction tied in with real human emotions.
Incredible performances across the board, uh, it's very interesting how we now see
Patrick Stewart as old man and how he is made up to look like an old man when
he was not as old as he was or is now.
Kevin: He's, he's aged better than the makeup, uh, gave him credit
Rob: He's, yeah, well, clearly the doctors and the, the healthcare
system on, uh, on that planet was nowhere near as, uh, high quality as
Kevin: It's the, it's the sun.
It's the sun damage.
Rob: It's that damn sun.
That damn sun.
That's why, that's why he created the special lotion to, uh, to protect you.
What an incredible, what an incredible episode of television.
Kevin: I'm so glad you liked it, Rob.
Like I've said, this is one of my favorites and it would have broken
my heart if you said, Ugh, it's it on a bit thick, don't you think?
Rob: No, it's a good, beautiful balance, like the The tension between him
and his wife at the start, because, and how patient she is with him.
Um, beautiful relationship he develops with, uh, Batai, um, played by the
great, uh, Richard, uh, Riehle, who's, who's done a lot of stuff.
You may have seen him around.
Like, he was in The Fugitive, he was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he's been
around doing stuff, a great jobbing actor.
And this is a beautiful performance here, just being allowed to,
you know, sit around and shoot the shit with Patrick Stewart.
Having some drinkin
Kevin: off screen,
Rob: Yeah, dies off screen,
Kevin: gets a child named after him.
What could be better?
Rob: Yeah, just beautiful writing and those jumps of time don't
seem frantic or disjointed.
It's a really beautiful flow and how we see,
Kevin: it's a fine line they're walking, like the, the, the days
or the, the moments of time in this life that we do see are, um, in
hindsight, surprisingly action packed.
Like, all of the important moments of this person's life happen in four ten
minute vignettes that happen decades apart in and we get to see them.
And you just wonder, like, is all the rest of the time, like, filling in moments?
Or, Maybe the probe is doing something to his brain where like, actually
those, the things we saw are actually the only things we experienced,
but it's kind of like giving him this impression of time passing.
You know how your mind plays tricks on you sometimes when you're
dreaming of things take a really long time or really short time.
You wonder, like, how dreamlike was this experience for, for Captain Picard?
Did he literally live out every second in real time of that life, or not?
It's hard to know.
Rob: And much like Arena, it's always difficult when you come
in to watch something that's so highly regarded, whether it be a
Kevin: Yeah, we raised the, the bar was pretty high.
Rob: And it's always the case is, so much is talked about this episode,
it's interesting to watch this, and Arena as well, and how little is said.
How, how much people talk about it afterwards.
The words that people talk about this episode is, You know, multiple times
more than what is actually said and how much is unsaid about like whether,
Kevin: A lot of room is left for the audience to, to, to create
their own version of this story.
Rob: And you see a lot of emotion through, you know, looks or expressions
or especially with the ending, um, whereas more modern shows they would
have had a moment with, and they have in TNG episodes when there's been through
something harrowing that Picard sits down and talks with Troi about it, but in
this in particular, it's a very internal process of he wakes up and he finds
himself back, he'd almost forgotten who he was and he remembers it and that's those
moments of… the only thing that's left from this civilization is the flute that,
uh, this character played, that he was,
Kevin: the two moments that kill me when he gets up on the bridge and Dr.
Crusher says, come with me to sick bay.
And he just says, Dr.
Crusher.
Like he just says her name because he's realizing who she is.
And then he, she ushers him into the turbo lift and he turns back
and looks at the bridge and smiles.
And as an audience, I'm like, I am so glad he's happy in that moment.
Rob: It's, but a, it's, it's not a fully overjoyed smile, it's a, it's it's a worn,
tired, it's a case of, it's, he's still affected by it, he's not unbridled happy.
You can see that he is grateful to be home and he's grateful to be back in his place.
But you can, that's, and that's just the beauty of Patrick Stewart.
The
Kevin: That's the, It's a Wonderful Life moment.
How many times have we heard captains say, I'm tired.
Every day is the same.
Another mission, another day.
Here, Captain Picard, in a moment where he felt like he had lost his entire
world, looks back on it and smiles and is glad it's still there for him.
That is really, it's a heartwarming moment.
And then the other is, with the flute in his quarters, when he clutches
it to his chest, I just can't keep it together in that moment.
Rob: Yeah, that's a, that's a beautiful moment.
He's on his own and he doesn't just look at it, he picks it
up and he holds it to him.
Um, I like that moment also when he's just realized what's going on and it's
the people of his past, his wife, his best friend, everyone there going,
walking around and going, remember us.
Remember what we went through, remember, we were here, we were, you know, we
were a people, we existed, and we, you know, we want to be remembered.
Remember us.
You will carry us.
And so, you know, it's a beautiful stand alone episode.
And it's this case of, you know, maybe their story will be told, uh,
by Picard and passes it on, and so it could become a part of, you know,
legacy that is remembered, or maybe the memory that they have is within Picard.
Kevin: Since we're talking about captains on their own, I think what's interesting
about this episode is it kind of is and kind of isn't Picard on his own.
Because he, he very quickly becomes Kamin and his, his character becomes
influenced by the world in which he exists and the family that he has around them.
And by the end, Picard is almost unrecognizable when he's playing his
flute at his second child's name day and he has softened and is a loving
father who wants the best for his son, who wants a career in music.
Um, played by Daniel Stewart, by the way, uh, Patrick Stewart's real life son.
Rob: There you go.
I was wondering, I was there going, yeah, is there a connection?
That is his son.
Beautiful.
Kevin: Yeah, and so that how Picard is changed, uh, as he becomes more
and more Kamin, and how much of that is going to be a permanent change
for this character that we know?
How much of Kamin will remain in Picard going forward?
There's a quote from Ronald D.
Moore, who worked on this episode, who, he says, I've always felt that the
experience in The Inner Light would have been the most profound experience in
Picard's life and changed him irrevocably.
However, that wasn't our intention when we were creating the show.
We were after a good hour of TV the larger implications of how
this would really screw someone up didn't hit home for us until later.
Um, yeah, I feel like so much is made of.
The Borg assimilation's effect on Picard, and yes, post traumatic stress is a
thing, but what about post life syndrome?
Like, I, I would have loved, there is this one episode later on where Picard,
we've talked about it before, Picard, um, falls in love with this Commander Daren,
who he has to send on a dangerous but before they do, she, she plays piano, and
he plays a duet with her on the flute.
And so the flute comes back and it is this moment of seeing Picard do
something that is very un Picardy because of his experience in Inner Light.
But it's just one episode and just one relationship.
Rob: And you, I mean if you want to really stretch it, it's sort of like, it is
addressed in Generations as well, like how he, um, he loses his brother and his
brother's family, and how the last of the Picards and he doesn't have that family to
carry on with, and it isn't really played up because it focuses more on the Borg
stuff, but in Picard Season 3, it's about, you know, the family that he never knew
he had, but he kind of does have, and he has to learn how to part of that family.
Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's beautiful.
It's just a beautiful episode.
I really enjoyed watching it and I'm,
Kevin: I hum that little piece of music from the flute all the time.
Like when I'm walking around the house alone, that's something
that I'll often hum to myself,
Rob: Because he starts, he starts playing a well known tune, doesn't he?
But then he starts
Kevin: Yeah, it's Frère Jacques at first.
Rob: Yeah, and then he creates his own compositions.
Kevin: Mmm.
Rob: Yeah, a great episode of, and yeah, like you said, it's not so much a
mission, it's just sort of like, uh, a journey of, um, Picard and how he gets
what he always wanted in some ways.
He always wanted to be an explorer.
He never just wanted to stay on a vineyard, uh, making wine.
He always wanted to explore.
But there was a part of him going, I've sacrificed family
and stability for this life.
What would that look like?
Kevin: Yeah.
Oh, I'm so glad you liked it.
Rob: Loved it.
Kevin: I've got one more for us.
It is not.
It does not.
Raised to the heights of The Inner Light, I'm afraid.
This is Star Trek Voyager season 2 episode 12, Resistance.
A time in this series where resistance did not necessarily mean the Borg.
Rob: And didn't mean it was futile.
Kevin: No, it was not futile in this episode at all.
I feel like, similar to Sisko, perhaps, Janeway is a captain or a leader who is
at their most effective and at most at home when they have a crew around them.
I feel like Janeway's natural state is giving orders to capable people.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: Janeway herself is not, is not an action hero.
She is a scientist, but it, that is rarely brought out in story.
And in this episode, Janeway is separated from her crew and has to
figure stuff out alone and she seemed so, um, so lost in this episode.
So broad strokes, this episode kind of starts in media res, where the ship
has made contact with a resistance cell on a planet that we've never
seen before and we'll never see again, because that resistance cell is willing
to get them a substance that they need to refuel their warp engines
that have broken down on Voyager.
But yes, this planet is known to be occupied by a brutal government
that is extremely xenophobic.
And so Voyager figures out the only way they'll get this substance is if
they talk to the Resistance instead.
And at the start of this episode, they've just gotten the substance that
they need, but most of the away team is captured by the police in the process.
Um, B'Elanna Torres and Tuvok are thrown in prison, Neelix manages to get back to
the ship with the essential substance, and Janeway is grazed by a phaser shot
and carried off by the resistance, and she is on her own for the rest of
this episode, where she spends most of her time with this kind of, um, this,
old man who seems to be related to the resistance, but no one takes seriously
because he's constantly talking about his daughter and wife, who no one has
seen in many years, but he is sure they were just here yesterday before they were
dragged off by the, the military police.
And so he's, he's got problems, this guy.
He is quite delusional in this.
So he very quickly, like confuses Janeway with his daughter and starts
calling her by his daughter's name.
She tries to correct him and goes, oh, that's a wonderful
story you're telling my dear.
Tell me more stories about your Starship.
Um, and so Janeway ends up kind of giving up and just going along with it because
after all, this guy will, uh, treat her injuries and, and give her food and water.
And is her connection, only connection at this point to the resistance
from whom she needs help in order to rescue, B'Elanna and Tuvok.
And as the, as the episode goes on, she is walking that line between being kind
to this old man who is treating her as his daughter, and not taking advantage of him.
And she saves his bacon on several occasions.
He's very quick to anger and is, whenever he sees the police, he wants
to go and fight them to get his wife back, and she's talking him down.
But it's also, kind of self serving because if, if he makes a scene, she will
get spotted and, and captured herself.
Uh, and so it's an interesting line she's striking there.
But it all, it all feels a bit passive to me that she is kind of just being
carried along by the whims of this delusional old man who, yes, is getting
her closer and closer to her objective, but she isn't doing a lot in this episode.
She does two things.
She spots that a guy who was meant to be bringing them weapons is wearing
polished boots, and therefore it's a trap.
It's he's a he's a plant from the military police.
And then she dresses up as a prostitute, which is an unfortunate turn for the first
female captain of a starship in Star Trek.
But she realizes when they're not going to get weapons, the only
way to get into the prison is to don the robes of a prostitute.
There have been a couple of women of the night wandering around on this
planet and she realizes they are going to the prison at night and, um, and
providing their services, and she's like, Oh, I can dress up like one of those.
And she sneaks in and then they, they, they seduce a guard and
then knock him over the head to knock him out and it works.
It's, it's kind of, kind of a power move for Janeway, but also
there is that, that kind of, uh, did it have to be a prostitute?
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: There, there is a bit of that about it.
Rob: There are people of the cloth that go into, uh, prisons as
Kevin: Exactly!
It could have been that, yes.
So yeah, um, yeah, yeah.
So it is unusual to see Janeway without her crew, and we do get to see that
here, but for me, it, it, like, there is that moment, because inevitably
the old man sacrifices himself he thinks is his daughter and dies.
And Janeway is left with the necklace that he gave her, that he put around
her neck, thinking she was his daughter, and she is cold and stone faced in
her ready room while Harry Kim is giving her an engine repairs report,
and she says, I'm fine, and he leaves, and the camera turns, and we see her
face, and she just looks a little sad.
It's not, it's not the clutching the flute to the chest moment that we
get from Picard in The Inner Light.
So, does not quite get there for me, this
Rob: We go from, Picard clutching a flute and his whole soul is destroyed,
to Janeway, she's looking a little sad.
Kevin: Yeah,
I wonder, I wonder if I got that old man killed.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure got that
Rob: was, that was my fault.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kevin: My bad.
Rob: Well, there you go.
I mean, yeah, I always see, you know, my favorite image of Janeway is always her
walking into the cafeteria area, going behind the, you know, where, where Neelix
is getting a, getting one coffees, and you know, having a sip of that and walking
around and talking and chatting to people.
That's her giving out orders, but also being amongst the people.
She was very much, that's how she led her, um, her people is being amongst
them, chatting, talking, walking around the spaces, not just being on the bridge.
Or, um, walking with authority around place.
It was this sense of, you know, I'm a part of the people.
So it'd be interesting to watch her, um, uh, you know, get her sexy on.
Kevin: I love Kate, but, uh, I think this episode proves to me
that, uh, Captain Janeway is at her best with a crew around her.
Rob: Yes, I, I concur.
I concur.
Kevin: Well, there you go, Rob.
We've only got two episodes left of Discovery, and then
we'll be back on hiatus.
What are your hopes and dreams for the denouement of this, uh,
this great series that you love
Rob: so much?
Ah-ha!
Ha ha ha ha.
Look at you, mister.
Someone took their sass tablets this morning!
Um, Uh, look, I'm excited because next week's episode is directed by
the great Jonathan Frakes, who has,
Kevin: Yeah, how could we go wrong?
Rob: How can we go, there's, you know, that man knows how to direct, uh, not
only a TV show, but a movie as well.
A great man.
He has criminally been taken away from, uh, the director's chair in
motion pictures for far too long.
Um, I'm very excited to see what he brings to, uh, to Discovery's final season.
Second last episode.
Um, he did great stuff with, um, with the crossover episode of
Strange New Worlds, obviously.
But, um, yeah, bring it on.
I'm,
Kevin: not getting my hopes up for next week because I feel like Discovery and
modern Star Trek in general has trained me that the second last episode of season is
really just set up for the last episode.
It's gonna be place setting followed by a cliffhanger, is what I'm expecting.
So, I'm not too excited.
I'm more excited about the two together.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, see how we go, and then we go on a bit of a wait until, uh, we
finally get Season 2 of Prodigy.
Kevin: Yeah, alright.
Well, sooner we get off this call, the sooner it'll happen, Rob.
Rob: Ha ha ha!
What are we waiting around here for?
Come on, let's go!