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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

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have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

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got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

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How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

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and most importantly, find joy.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

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and most importantly, find joy.

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Welcome back to live free, ride free.

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Self actualization.

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Now, it's not always what we think it is.

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I realized in the opening interviews
of this show that I have been

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interviewing quite a lot of people
who have been doing big things.

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In a very noticeable sort of a way
in the world which is wonderful,

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but I, I reflected on this.

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And I realized that there's an
millions, probably billions,

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hopefully billions of people out
there living self actualized lives.

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You would never hear of the everyday
heroes, the unsung heroes, but not

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just heroes that the people who
just simply are self actualized and

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they're not doing it in a way that is.

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in front of audiences.

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Not that there's anything wrong with
doing it in front of audiences, but

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it means that we can sometimes miss
the meaning of what self actualization

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is because self actualization is
actually a very personal process.

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What everyone's own successes
is very, very much seen through

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their prism, their lens.

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And so that made me As I was having
this thought, I rather Synchronis,

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synchronistically got a WhatsApp
from a, a very dear old friend of

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mine, Jill Cohen, and I'm gonna let
Jill Cohen tell you about her life.

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But suffice to say, before we begin,
I would say that Jill Cohen is one of

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the most self-actualized people I know.

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She's not famous she's not public yet
she completely, completely lives life

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on her own terms, very successfully,
and in a way that I know has inspired

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pretty much everyone who's come into
contact with her, and has healed actually

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many people who've come into contact
with her, but has also reached out into

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the wider world and had quite a lot of
ripple effect influence, just without

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fanfare and I think that there, if you're
listening, And you've been thinking,

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yeah, you know, Roo, you're saying
all these very successful people that

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you're, you're interviewing is awesome.

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What about the ordinary people who
are just out there self actualizing,

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you know, and they're so busy self
actualizing that they haven't got time

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to make websites about it or whatever.

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What about that?

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And I think that's a very valid point.

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So, you don't have to be a
celebrity to be self actualized.

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Quite the opposite, in fact.

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So Jill Cohen, welcome
to Live Free Ride Free.

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Thank you so much for coming on.

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Jill Cohen: Welcome.

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Thank you, Rupert.

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And so honored to be here with you.

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Your abilities and skills of
bringing out the true nature

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in people is just mind blowing.

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And I'm so honored to be
here to be peeled back.

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I'm so curious to see who shows up.

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Rupert Isaacson: Well, you do,
it's going to be a great honor.

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Before, what I really want to ask you,
so let's just go, who are you Jill Cohen?

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Jill Cohen: I'm a little chickpea, just
being cooked, ripened in this life.

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I am here and present.

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I was born to two parents that deeply,
deeply loved me, grandparents that just

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adored me and thought the world of me.

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And that gave me such fertile soil
to grow in possibility being seen,

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being loved and just saw this life
as such an opportunity to serve, to

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love, to give, to grow, to nourish.

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nurture and be part of and dance
fully, fully, fully expressed.

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So many I feel like I've just
been given this magical lifetime.

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I feel like an old soul.

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I feel like I've lived through so many
different cultures and ways of life.

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I feel like I can relate to every
grain of sand on the planet.

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So tell us lifetime, just

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Rupert Isaacson: tell
us, tell us what you do.

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What do you

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Jill Cohen: do?

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So I, right now, in this present
time, I have been for the past 40 some

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odd years started touching people.

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I began when I was 13, working
with clay and touching the clay.

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And could do it like, like right away.

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And then as that grew over the years,
I just saw that the clay and the

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process of clay becoming a pot and
the human element that came into it.

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And just the manifestation and the alchemy
of the elements coming together creates

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just this amazing vessel that holds life.

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Did pottery for many years.

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I was living in Southern California.

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I had a studio with my husband and
my two little babies, and we were

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given notice that we had to move.

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So we moved and didn't want to
start up a whole new pottery,

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so I began touching people.

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I thought, this is such a natural
progression, it's not much different,

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and, and there's more interaction.

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The clay, you're dirty, you're alone
in the studio, and it's, It's awesome.

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I loved it.

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But it was like there was so much
more richness in working with the

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human added to all the other elements.

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And started touching people
and built a practice.

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People were requesting my touch.

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So I thought, okay, this
is my new livelihood.

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It was just like given to me.

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And started to see how the emotions,
our mental attitudes our backgrounds.

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We're all in that tissue, that fiber,
that fabric and after a few years, I

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was just teachers just showed up for me.

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It's just, I have, I kind of have to
close my eyes to not have too many

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because I'm, I've been not that's
not hungry, but just fertile soil

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for this little baby to grow in.

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And I've just found beautiful
teachers to help me learn.

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Direct ways of getting to the core.

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What's at the heart of the
human dilemma of living here.

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So I was led to I worked with fellow
from Chicago that had the school of

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school of massage, but it wasn't massage.

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We didn't use oil.

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He worked on athletes
and dancers and it was.

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Really fun created.

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He showed me techniques of how to
create space in the body through

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movement and and deepening and it
was almost like sinking your hands

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and clay or you can't force the clay.

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I knew that as a potter.

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You try to force the clay and it just
flops over and really doesn't give a shit.

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So the clay really taught me, how to feel
in my hands and it's an extension of my

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heart and the air, my mind and the waters,
my emotions and the fire of spirit and

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things started to wake up under my hands.

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I could feel the elements dance
and I could feel where there

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were imbalances, where there was
lack of movement and freedom.

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And it's just, I could
feel in myself, it's like.

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I just want to be free.

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I just want to be able to move.

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I want to be able to express and what
keeps us stuck and I could really see

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how the mind and the belief systems
keep our fabric, our tissue stuck and

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that the water element that you have
to add to the clay is that the emotion.

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So the emotion needs to be in there to
lubricate the mind to free up Stagnant

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belief systems that keep us stuck so much.

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What it is.

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It's like the mind.

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It's it's it's it's our attitude.

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That's our only free will is our
attitude and when we can step outside

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of that, when we can touch into
the pain as being information and

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not a bad thing that we need to get
away from, but actually informant.

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Things start to unravel, the
layers start to unravel, and

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the fear starts to drop away.

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And it gets juicy and
you want to go deeper.

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So I was led to a teacher.

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I was looking, I had moved to, gosh,
this goes off to I had started my

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practice and then went on vacation
with my mom to Greece, felt like I

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needed to just get out of town and.

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Get some perspective on life and
ended up meeting a Swede on vacation

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and he asked me to marry him
within the first hour and a half.

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And I said, okay, I have to go home and
get divorced, but did that and ended up

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moving to Sweden and my practice kind of

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changed.

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It was going I had a, I had a I deepen.

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Do I want to become a acupuncturist
and really work with the

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elements in the meridians?

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Do I want to become a physical
therapist and be a doctor?

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Anyway, I didn't want to do that.

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Long story short, sailed partway around
the world, left the Sweden, Panama,

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ended up coming back to Santa Cruz
where I really always wanted to live.

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Since I was, since I graduated high
school, I moved my best friend up

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here and said, I'm coming back.

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So I came back here and was.

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Gosh, given a massage practice a friend
of mine was a chiropractor and her

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massage therapist left town, left her
high and dry and I was able to jump

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in and fill in and didn't really, I
blended, I did a little bit of massage.

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Because that's what the chiropractic
office wanted to, but within months,

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I searched and went, okay, do I want
to do rolfing went to a demo for that.

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That didn't really do it.

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Cranial sacral work, no, I need to
be more, I'm more, I'm more young,

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I'm more hands on, I'm more, I want
it to be more expensive, expansive

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than just holding the cranial rhythm.

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And then I was working
on a world class athlete.

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And she had found something
called myofascial release, and

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she went and got a session.

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She called me from the office,
put me on the phone with the

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receptionist, said, Jill, you got to
learn this and make an appointment

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and get treated and figure it out.

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So I did.

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And I was blown away.

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The woman touched me, she
worked in my belly and my psoas.

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And it was like, boom, the
birth of my son came up.

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I'm sobbing.

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I'm reliving this whole thing and
letting go of, I actually had him in

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a hospital and that was traumatic.

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And I thought, wow, this shit's awesome.

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Just, you know, showed me techniques
of how to really get into the emotion

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and into the mental belief systems and
the places where I felt stuck, where

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I couldn't access my power and, yeah,
I called the office, John Barnes, my

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fashion release, sign me up, when's
your next seminar and went and did

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a 10 day seminar and just went, holy
shit, this is awesome, but it looks

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so big because there's no protocol.

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You learn techniques, but you
really have to feel the body.

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You have to listen.

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You have to really
bring in your intuition.

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You have to deeply feel and
look at the big picture.

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And it's like, yeah, this is good.

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This is juicy.

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This will challenge me.

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And I found my calling, my
teacher, I could almost mouth.

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You know, as he's teaching, it was like,
it was so, it's so resonated with me

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and came home and it was like worked on.

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People started doing the techniques.

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When I get a phone call from
him, will you come and assist?

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And that began a 15 year journey,
15 year journey of, of assisting

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in the work and really deepening.

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And and my practice was just booming.

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I was seeing 5 to 7 people a day.

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It was ridiculous.

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And going to Sedona and traveling around
the country to assist in his seminars

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and yeah, and people were getting better.

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People were, their lives were changing.

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People were changing.

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People were leaving,
you know, relationships.

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People were leaving jobs.

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People were really looking from
that expansive place where they

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actually had space inside of
themselves to start to imagine.

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You know, what is possible.

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So the work has just been a life
away and the way knows the way.

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So in a journey, it's like there's no
separation between that work and life.

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And then I started working on horses.

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Horses have been in my
life for most of my life.

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From the beginning of having to babysit
the little kid next door to be able

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to get my, to rent my horse, to go to
my lessons So then my stepdad bringing

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a horse, surprising me so very busy
practice up until I cut back the pandemic.

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Thank God.

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I'm so grateful.

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It gave me my 1st sabbatical
year time of not working and got

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some big time to reflect and and
start to slow down a little bit.

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Yeah, where that dove tails into
my mother coming and backtracking

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to meeting you, Rupert, which
was a pretty cosmic experience.

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I don't even know if

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Rupert Isaacson: I've shared with you.

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Let me, let me go to your mother and let
me go to how you met me because this is

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going to inform readers listeners, the,
the, the, the key word here is stuck.

00:14:52.362 --> 00:14:56.942
And basically what you're saying
is you have built a phenomenally

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successful, you know, without a
website, without any social media,

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without any cheerleaders or pom poms.

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My, sort of, myofascial release
practice that began with pottery

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went through intuitive touch and
then went through formal training.

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And now I do know, I, I, I, Jill, Jill
Cohen listeners is a well kept secret.

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Santa Cruz, California is one of the
world's most beautiful places and an

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awful lot of people want to live there.

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So, of course, it's very expensive and to
be able to, through a bodywork practice,

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buy land, have horses, look after people,
support people, as well as running the

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business and keeping people on site,
while at the same time being a complete

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and total hippie, which is no insult.

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And what I mean by that,
because I'm a total hippie too,

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is the hippies had it right.

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And what I mean by the hippies
had it right was that the

00:16:07.747 --> 00:16:09.217
counterculture had it right.

00:16:09.967 --> 00:16:14.717
The counterculture came along in,
in, in direct as a direct answer

00:16:14.717 --> 00:16:18.847
to what had created World War
II and what created colonialism

00:16:18.877 --> 00:16:20.427
that had led up to World War II.

00:16:21.047 --> 00:16:25.007
And Those of us who were born
during the counterculture.

00:16:25.007 --> 00:16:26.077
I was born in 67.

00:16:26.087 --> 00:16:26.997
When were you born Jill?

00:16:28.137 --> 00:16:29.917
I was born at 54, right?

00:16:29.927 --> 00:16:34.347
So The counterculture was happening and
it was happening for a very good reason,

00:16:34.567 --> 00:16:39.467
but we know that it People think that
it imploded and people think now if

00:16:39.467 --> 00:16:42.387
you say to people, Oh, you know, you're
just a hippie or that person's a hippie.

00:16:42.697 --> 00:16:45.357
It's almost like a a
pejorative and to my mind.

00:16:45.357 --> 00:16:48.497
No No, it's actually the highest
compliment because not only

00:16:48.497 --> 00:16:49.507
do the hippies get it, right?

00:16:49.677 --> 00:16:53.477
but all of the areas now where the real
estate is the highest in the world is

00:16:53.477 --> 00:16:56.867
because they were ex hippie communes or
Ex artist communes who went in there and

00:16:56.867 --> 00:17:01.857
created an atmosphere and an ambiance and
an aesthetic That then other people wanted

00:17:01.857 --> 00:17:05.717
to come in and share in whether that's
Santa Fe or whether that's the left bank

00:17:05.717 --> 00:17:11.207
of Paris or whether that's East London
or actually Notting Hill in London or all

00:17:11.217 --> 00:17:14.437
these areas that we think of as so shishi,
they, they, they were all hippie communes.

00:17:14.917 --> 00:17:18.917
And this will always happen because
the hippies are the pioneers and

00:17:18.917 --> 00:17:23.557
what they're about is quality of
life and quality of values and belief

00:17:23.877 --> 00:17:27.297
and basically living through love
and, and, and nature and aesthetics.

00:17:28.147 --> 00:17:29.117
And community.

00:17:29.607 --> 00:17:34.447
And so that you have done that talk like
he'd be act like he'd be look like he'd be

00:17:34.447 --> 00:17:41.277
live like he'd be while building a really
solid business that gets people unstuck.

00:17:42.377 --> 00:17:48.377
And the reason why I want to go to this
word stuck is because you've had, I know,

00:17:48.517 --> 00:17:54.317
quite a few times in your life when you've
been, and you've had to walk the talk,

00:17:54.547 --> 00:17:59.947
and now even, one could say, you are very
stuck, and that's why I wanted you to come

00:17:59.947 --> 00:18:03.907
on the show, because it's, listeners, it's
not like Jill Kerwin is coming on saying,

00:18:04.287 --> 00:18:08.577
oh yeah, you know, I sort of made it into
hippie paradise, and I sort of live in

00:18:09.057 --> 00:18:13.802
a Gaudi garden in Barcelona, you know,
independent of any sort of cares or woes,

00:18:14.202 --> 00:18:16.402
quite the opposite, quite the opposite.

00:18:16.762 --> 00:18:20.002
It's almost like life has thrown
at you, Jill, okay, you want to

00:18:20.002 --> 00:18:23.012
deal with stuckness, try this
one, try this one, try this one.

00:18:23.432 --> 00:18:27.742
And you keep like sinking those
baskets, sinking those baskets.

00:18:28.192 --> 00:18:33.962
So before we go into where you've
been stuck and how your people

00:18:33.962 --> 00:18:40.042
might think you're stuck now, yet
are actually self actualized, let's

00:18:40.132 --> 00:18:42.312
dial right back to the beginning.

00:18:45.557 --> 00:18:48.367
Jill Cohen: I was born in Houston,
Texas on an Air Force base.

00:18:48.667 --> 00:18:51.567
My mom got pregnant a year
before my dad was out.

00:18:52.657 --> 00:18:56.267
So we lived in, yeah,
outside of Houston there.

00:18:56.267 --> 00:19:03.092
And what was funny is God, it really,
Goes into really my work of being

00:19:03.092 --> 00:19:06.742
in my mommy's belly and she didn't
acknowledge she was pregnant with me

00:19:06.742 --> 00:19:08.422
until she was like, 5 months pregnant.

00:19:08.422 --> 00:19:10.802
And I'm just going, why
am I walking around?

00:19:10.812 --> 00:19:13.722
Not wanting anybody to look at
me if they're, you know, if they

00:19:13.722 --> 00:19:17.302
see that I'm here, it's like, I
always had that feeling of Jill.

00:19:17.302 --> 00:19:18.207
What are you doing here?

00:19:18.657 --> 00:19:20.067
That I was going to get asked to leave.

00:19:20.567 --> 00:19:20.847
Yeah.

00:19:20.917 --> 00:19:26.757
So I got to do the Leonard or rebirthing
work back in the 70s and discover that.

00:19:26.797 --> 00:19:27.757
Oh, that's not mine.

00:19:27.817 --> 00:19:28.597
That was hers.

00:19:28.977 --> 00:19:29.497
You know.

00:19:30.757 --> 00:19:37.167
And, but that stuckness, it was like
that stuckness, it's, it's just, it's

00:19:37.167 --> 00:19:41.807
like the stuckness, it's like the pain,
it's an informant, it's information

00:19:41.867 --> 00:19:44.057
and the stuckness is going into it.

00:19:44.077 --> 00:19:49.047
It's like using the compression, it's
like, it's like the piece of coal being

00:19:49.047 --> 00:19:53.507
compressed and then it's like it's so
compressed and then boom, it's a freaking

00:19:53.517 --> 00:19:55.757
star, it's a diamond, it explodes.

00:19:56.787 --> 00:20:00.457
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay,
so you're born in 54.

00:20:01.127 --> 00:20:06.417
In this Air Force base, outside of
Houston, but you're, you're Jewish, you,

00:20:06.437 --> 00:20:13.077
you talk like a New Yorker, your folks
were from New York, moved up to New York.

00:20:13.547 --> 00:20:13.867
Jill Cohen: Yep.

00:20:14.222 --> 00:20:15.822
Nope, my parents were both.

00:20:16.392 --> 00:20:20.572
My father from the Bronx and my mother
from Brooklyn and their families

00:20:20.652 --> 00:20:25.022
from Romania and Ukraine Ashkenazis

00:20:25.022 --> 00:20:26.832
Rupert Isaacson: Ashkenazis Ashkenazis.

00:20:27.132 --> 00:20:30.402
Yeah from Eastern Europe like
my my Jewish heritage is that

00:20:30.402 --> 00:20:32.662
side to you Ukraine Lithuania?

00:20:33.102 --> 00:20:36.982
Okay How how long do you live in?

00:20:38.442 --> 00:20:40.192
How long do you live in New York?

00:20:40.502 --> 00:20:42.822
How practicing Jewish was your family?

00:20:43.202 --> 00:20:44.042
How Ashkenazi was?

00:20:45.847 --> 00:20:50.707
Jill Cohen: Yeah, so my mom's, my
maternal side were not very, they went

00:20:50.707 --> 00:20:55.317
to temple my uncle was bar mitzvahed,
girls didn't get bar mitzvahed

00:20:55.357 --> 00:21:03.037
then, but on my mom's side, and they
were, they were Jewish, absolutely.

00:21:03.057 --> 00:21:06.267
They acknowledged their heritage,
but they weren't practicing.

00:21:06.552 --> 00:21:12.032
So much my father's side grandpa
Irving was he came from Romania

00:21:12.032 --> 00:21:16.282
as a little three year old boy
with his dad landed in New York.

00:21:16.372 --> 00:21:22.862
Mom had died in Romania and grandpa was a
very religious man, but very, very humble.

00:21:22.892 --> 00:21:23.802
Didn't push it.

00:21:23.972 --> 00:21:25.252
We had Passover.

00:21:25.322 --> 00:21:28.212
The prayers, you know, ran
through my head, but I was

00:21:28.212 --> 00:21:29.872
never sent to Sunday school.

00:21:30.602 --> 00:21:31.222
Thank God.

00:21:31.232 --> 00:21:34.402
I went with a friend once and I
just went, you believe this crap?

00:21:35.152 --> 00:21:39.012
So that was kind of like,
I was into Baba Ram Dass.

00:21:39.132 --> 00:21:40.302
I was into Be Here Now.

00:21:40.302 --> 00:21:47.287
I was into All that but there was
something deep in my soul about I mean,

00:21:47.287 --> 00:21:51.667
I see fiddler on the, fiddler on the
roof and I sob, I sob, I sob, I sob

00:21:51.667 --> 00:21:53.297
through the entire, I'm deeply, deeply

00:21:53.297 --> 00:21:53.507
Rupert Isaacson: touched.

00:21:53.507 --> 00:21:54.367
It's a tribal thing.

00:21:54.457 --> 00:21:55.117
Yeah, yeah.

00:21:55.307 --> 00:21:58.127
Jill Cohen: It's so
tribal, so tribal deeply.

00:21:58.752 --> 00:22:02.512
It's, it's ingrained in me and
probably many, many lifetimes.

00:22:03.492 --> 00:22:08.632
But we lived in New York for about
3 years when I, by the time I

00:22:08.632 --> 00:22:11.512
was 3, we moved to to California.

00:22:11.542 --> 00:22:14.802
My dad got a job working for
his uncle that worked in the.

00:22:15.577 --> 00:22:16.877
Office furniture business.

00:22:17.297 --> 00:22:19.167
We lived right below the
Hollywood Hills sign.

00:22:19.367 --> 00:22:20.987
It was awesome, in Beachwood Village.

00:22:21.707 --> 00:22:23.437
And, lived there.

00:22:23.437 --> 00:22:25.547
My dad started to do well.

00:22:25.587 --> 00:22:27.137
My little brother was born.

00:22:27.767 --> 00:22:29.687
And then we moved to
the San Fernando Valley.

00:22:29.737 --> 00:22:31.887
Got a house right above Ventura Boulevard.

00:22:32.377 --> 00:22:33.747
And It was kind of cool.

00:22:33.777 --> 00:22:35.037
Back then it was awesome.

00:22:35.557 --> 00:22:39.037
It was, it's totally different now.

00:22:39.277 --> 00:22:41.457
But back then it really was a cool

00:22:41.457 --> 00:22:42.027
Rupert Isaacson: place.

00:22:42.487 --> 00:22:43.847
What made it so cool back then?

00:22:43.867 --> 00:22:44.737
It was more rural?

00:22:45.837 --> 00:22:48.217
Jill Cohen: It was a little bit
more rural, but it was a little

00:22:48.217 --> 00:22:50.587
bit more it wasn't so glitzy.

00:22:50.587 --> 00:22:54.317
It was just, I mean, I could walk barefoot
Ventura Boulevard and now it's like

00:22:54.317 --> 00:22:59.557
everybody's in heels and sunglasses,
you know, the whole, that whole deal.

00:23:00.202 --> 00:23:06.112
Movie intricacy started, I used to see the
Beverly Hills, Billy granny on her motor

00:23:06.112 --> 00:23:08.292
scooter with a little dog in the basket.

00:23:08.882 --> 00:23:13.742
The hearty, hearty guy lived 2 blocks
over and there were movie stars

00:23:13.742 --> 00:23:16.392
everywhere, but it was so down to earth.

00:23:17.032 --> 00:23:18.252
It it was a community.

00:23:18.262 --> 00:23:19.492
It was a great community.

00:23:19.692 --> 00:23:23.052
We could play in the streets and play
in the, play in the, you know, empty

00:23:23.052 --> 00:23:28.672
lots and until the sun went down and
now it's like kids are, don't even.

00:23:29.162 --> 00:23:31.352
Walk around at all.

00:23:31.422 --> 00:23:34.852
Everybody's on a cell phone and in
a car, but it was a great place.

00:23:35.112 --> 00:23:38.262
It was a great place and
and I got into horses.

00:23:38.462 --> 00:23:44.002
My parents, they took me to Pickwick
stables in Burbank and they put me in.

00:23:44.072 --> 00:23:45.592
I rode with the California Rangers.

00:23:45.632 --> 00:23:49.212
We learned equitation and
formation writing and all that.

00:23:49.232 --> 00:23:51.522
And that was really fun.

00:23:51.522 --> 00:23:55.362
It was begging, you know, begging
for rides to get to the barn.

00:23:59.832 --> 00:24:00.822
Yeah, did that.

00:24:00.822 --> 00:24:00.897
Yeah.

00:24:02.457 --> 00:24:07.607
Growing up, wasn't so much into
school, but I was definitely into

00:24:07.607 --> 00:24:11.437
art and gymnastics, jewelry, pottery.

00:24:11.437 --> 00:24:18.647
Those were my big subjects and I did
graduate somehow, but when I was 13.

00:24:19.357 --> 00:24:25.017
Yeah, no, you go ahead when I was 13,
there was 8th grade art class and there

00:24:25.017 --> 00:24:29.047
was a kick wheel in the corner and I just
saw it and went for it and got on it.

00:24:29.057 --> 00:24:33.397
And I was able to actually
center the clay and make a pot.

00:24:33.447 --> 00:24:35.407
And the teacher, you
know, let me stay on it.

00:24:35.427 --> 00:24:36.647
The whole year was awesome.

00:24:36.647 --> 00:24:40.297
And then my mother saw that my
interest and there was a pottery

00:24:40.307 --> 00:24:41.927
studio called the muddy wheel, right?

00:24:41.927 --> 00:24:46.292
On metro Boulevard, like, Just a block
up from our house, I could walk and there

00:24:46.292 --> 00:24:48.392
was an amazing apprentice program there.

00:24:48.392 --> 00:24:49.992
And she put me into that program.

00:24:49.992 --> 00:24:54.522
There was an incredible master
Potter there, Fred Wilson black

00:24:54.522 --> 00:24:58.572
man, just brilliant and created
this whole apprentice program

00:24:58.572 --> 00:25:01.712
for kids and, and for adults.

00:25:01.712 --> 00:25:04.412
I mean, we had pottery
lessons for anybody I was.

00:25:05.477 --> 00:25:12.037
Really learned to throw pots to make,
make clay, make glazes, fire the kiln.

00:25:12.097 --> 00:25:15.487
My parents would let me stay up till
midnight because we were firing the kiln

00:25:15.487 --> 00:25:19.887
and then we would go to pottery shows,
sell our ware had a gallery in front.

00:25:19.887 --> 00:25:25.097
I bought my 1st car with my own
money when I was 17 love doing that.

00:25:25.117 --> 00:25:25.637
That really.

00:25:26.157 --> 00:25:32.607
That really gave me my kickstart
into being self actualized that

00:25:32.607 --> 00:25:34.797
I could do what I loved at 15.

00:25:34.807 --> 00:25:39.607
I was teaching adult throwing
classes and I was like, my God,

00:25:39.607 --> 00:25:43.657
this is freedom and I have a car
and I can go drive to the beach.

00:25:43.887 --> 00:25:44.757
You know, I can do.

00:25:45.077 --> 00:25:45.757
Yeah, I had a life.

00:25:45.787 --> 00:25:46.447
I had freedom.

00:25:46.567 --> 00:25:55.692
I had, it gave me my wheels that I was
then able to explore life and gave me it.

00:25:56.002 --> 00:25:57.262
Yeah, livelihood.

00:25:58.082 --> 00:26:01.602
You know, when I was 18, my
grandparents had left me a little

00:26:01.602 --> 00:26:03.082
bit of money for education.

00:26:03.082 --> 00:26:05.092
So my parents were just brilliant.

00:26:05.132 --> 00:26:06.812
They didn't even talk about college.

00:26:07.282 --> 00:26:10.382
They signed me up to go down to
San Miguel de Allende to pottery

00:26:10.382 --> 00:26:14.782
school for 3 months and do large pot
growing and glaze calculation and.

00:26:15.462 --> 00:26:17.022
You know, that's what I got to do.

00:26:17.082 --> 00:26:21.402
And on the way home, I
hitchhiked to Cihuatanejo, and

00:26:21.642 --> 00:26:23.202
met some interesting people.

00:26:23.212 --> 00:26:23.232
You

00:26:24.932 --> 00:26:28.612
Rupert Isaacson: hitchhiked from San
Miguel de Allende Miguel de Allende

00:26:28.612 --> 00:26:29.442
Jill Cohen: down to Cihuatanejo.

00:26:29.792 --> 00:26:32.242
Rupert Isaacson: Mexico,
down, up and down.

00:26:32.242 --> 00:26:33.442
And this is what year?

00:26:35.827 --> 00:26:36.937
Jill Cohen: This was in 72.

00:26:37.347 --> 00:26:42.817
Okay, so the year when I, so in 72, when
I graduated high school 1st, they gave

00:26:42.817 --> 00:26:46.687
me the opportunity of going with the
American Institute for foreign studies.

00:26:47.347 --> 00:26:51.507
There were maybe 20 other kids from my
graduating class that met up with with

00:26:51.537 --> 00:26:58.247
with pods of, you know, graduates go into
Europe and we all met in South Hampton.

00:26:58.652 --> 00:26:59.102
England.

00:26:59.562 --> 00:27:02.922
And we went to the University of
Southampton for three weeks and

00:27:02.922 --> 00:27:06.692
took Archaeology, Anthropology, you
know, English Lit, all that stuff.

00:27:06.722 --> 00:27:07.482
It was a blast.

00:27:08.352 --> 00:27:11.462
And then we ended up making our
way, trains and planes, across

00:27:11.502 --> 00:27:16.592
Europe and ended up in Venice and
boarded the original love boat.

00:27:17.572 --> 00:27:20.642
But they put us kids in the
belly of the boat and we partied.

00:27:20.892 --> 00:27:24.822
We had a blast and travelled
the entire Mediterranean.

00:27:26.792 --> 00:27:27.162
And

00:27:28.672 --> 00:27:29.702
Rupert Isaacson: this all
happened through pottery.

00:27:32.727 --> 00:27:36.307
Jill Cohen: Well, no, my grandparents
had passed, had passed away and

00:27:36.307 --> 00:27:39.917
left me a little bit of money for
education, but my parents, this

00:27:39.917 --> 00:27:41.187
was American and it's too far.

00:27:41.237 --> 00:27:41.657
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

00:27:41.657 --> 00:27:46.337
But if you hadn't had, if you hadn't
already been exploring pottery

00:27:46.337 --> 00:27:49.897
to the degree that you did where
you were already No, exactly.

00:27:49.907 --> 00:27:49.927
Yeah.

00:27:49.927 --> 00:27:53.337
Self actualized to whatever degree
through it, then these experiences

00:27:53.337 --> 00:27:54.317
would be meaningless, right?

00:27:54.347 --> 00:27:57.027
You, you, or at least It
would have just been a party.

00:27:57.327 --> 00:28:00.027
But no, you, you, you'd
already explored how to.

00:28:00.127 --> 00:28:01.957
Jill Cohen: And I was pissed
off because they had signed

00:28:01.957 --> 00:28:03.817
me up for, for San Miguel day.

00:28:04.127 --> 00:28:04.577
Yeah.

00:28:04.637 --> 00:28:06.657
They signed me up for
San Miguel day and day.

00:28:06.987 --> 00:28:09.687
And then the pottery studio, they
were going to Japan and they were

00:28:09.687 --> 00:28:11.547
going to study with a raccoon master.

00:28:11.547 --> 00:28:13.727
And it was like, I was going,
you gotta let me do this.

00:28:13.817 --> 00:28:18.237
It was like, it was like, you know,
one or the other, they said, no,

00:28:18.237 --> 00:28:19.447
you already signed up for this.

00:28:19.447 --> 00:28:20.417
You're going to do this.

00:28:21.127 --> 00:28:24.767
And, and it was a, it was, it was
an amazing experience of traveling.

00:28:24.767 --> 00:28:28.707
It was my first time, yeah, going
to Greece, going to Italy, going

00:28:28.707 --> 00:28:32.707
to Israel, which was just amazing.

00:28:33.377 --> 00:28:33.607
Yeah.

00:28:33.607 --> 00:28:35.267
And discovering, starting to travel.

00:28:35.277 --> 00:28:38.977
So that was the beginning of my
traveling and exploring the world.

00:28:39.107 --> 00:28:40.097
I've been everywhere.

00:28:40.397 --> 00:28:40.597
And

00:28:40.597 --> 00:28:42.877
Rupert Isaacson: then you come,
you, you come, you come back

00:28:42.907 --> 00:28:44.527
to California after all this.

00:28:45.022 --> 00:28:45.622
And you how old?

00:28:46.892 --> 00:28:47.922
Jill Cohen: I was 18.

00:28:48.712 --> 00:28:49.152
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:28:49.702 --> 00:28:50.212
And

00:28:50.322 --> 00:28:52.842
Jill Cohen: and then they put
me on the plane New Year's Eve.

00:28:52.842 --> 00:28:55.942
They put me on the plane to
fly to Guadalajara on my own.

00:28:55.962 --> 00:29:00.232
I had to find the bus to go over the
mountains to San Miguel de Allende.

00:29:00.672 --> 00:29:02.832
They booked a room for me for 2 nights.

00:29:04.177 --> 00:29:07.747
And then I had to find, you know,
I found other people in school.

00:29:07.757 --> 00:29:12.897
We all rented a house and
did art and lived together.

00:29:12.897 --> 00:29:15.457
It was my first time being out
of the house, finding other

00:29:15.457 --> 00:29:16.897
people that had common interests

00:29:17.847 --> 00:29:19.147
had some great adventures.

00:29:19.482 --> 00:29:22.032
Rupert Isaacson: I'm sure
this was what year 70s?

00:29:22.262 --> 00:29:22.552
Yeah.

00:29:22.722 --> 00:29:24.202
Jill Cohen: So 73.

00:29:24.202 --> 00:29:25.082
This was the beginning of

00:29:25.152 --> 00:29:26.222
Rupert Isaacson: 73, right?

00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:30.012
So, so we're in the we're in the height
of the counterculture here I think I think

00:29:30.012 --> 00:29:33.652
people often think that the counterculture
began and ended in the 60s And of course

00:29:33.652 --> 00:29:38.692
it didn't it just sort of got going a bit
in the 50s found its feet and its wings in

00:29:38.692 --> 00:29:43.642
the 60s Flap the wings and took off in the
70s and sort of has been soaring around

00:29:43.732 --> 00:29:54.642
the the metaverse ever since At what point
did you dive fully into full on hippiedom?

00:29:55.672 --> 00:30:00.722
And how did you marry that with your...

00:30:00.772 --> 00:30:01.932
It was straight up.

00:30:02.502 --> 00:30:05.142
your, like, making it all
work financially and so on.

00:30:05.142 --> 00:30:06.982
Because people often think those
are two very different things.

00:30:07.352 --> 00:30:09.502
And clearly they're not,
but talk us through that.

00:30:10.922 --> 00:30:12.612
Jill Cohen: So, a couple of things.

00:30:12.722 --> 00:30:16.432
I guess the counterculture,
whatever the hippie it was, I think

00:30:16.432 --> 00:30:20.072
when I was 15, I saw there was
a documentary on slaughterhouses

00:30:20.312 --> 00:30:21.672
and it fucking blew my mind.

00:30:21.672 --> 00:30:23.262
How inhumane that was.

00:30:23.852 --> 00:30:24.972
I was at my girlfriend's house.

00:30:24.972 --> 00:30:27.722
We went through and we threw
everything away out of the freezer.

00:30:27.722 --> 00:30:28.602
It was disgusting.

00:30:28.612 --> 00:30:29.882
I became a vegetarian.

00:30:29.962 --> 00:30:34.322
It was like, why do we have
to take life to sustain life?

00:30:34.732 --> 00:30:39.822
So that began that and then
wanting healthy food and then.

00:30:40.197 --> 00:30:43.257
Yeah, when I'm the kid's dad
and the beginning of that, I

00:30:43.257 --> 00:30:45.607
was, I had my kids at 20 and 21.

00:30:46.417 --> 00:30:51.357
So, backing up, I got home from Mexico,
went and met all my pottery friends.

00:30:51.357 --> 00:30:53.047
They were at a pottery show.

00:30:53.587 --> 00:30:54.427
My best friend.

00:30:54.467 --> 00:30:55.807
Yeah, she was there too.

00:30:55.807 --> 00:30:58.867
She was dating this guy, but they
were getting ready to break up.

00:30:58.867 --> 00:31:02.377
And I kind of, I was into him.

00:31:02.377 --> 00:31:04.897
And so we ended up getting together.

00:31:04.897 --> 00:31:07.167
I, I got home from Mexico.

00:31:07.187 --> 00:31:12.277
I got a call from, a pottery teacher
that I had met over one of the summers,

00:31:12.277 --> 00:31:19.997
I think it was 17 on kill building up in
Idlewild, and he kind of knew I was he was

00:31:19.997 --> 00:31:21.647
waiting for me to graduate high school.

00:31:21.647 --> 00:31:24.917
And he called me and asked me to
come apprentice with him and hired

00:31:24.917 --> 00:31:26.587
me basically to work for him.

00:31:26.977 --> 00:31:28.677
So I said, yeah, if I
can bring my boyfriend.

00:31:28.677 --> 00:31:29.297
So I brought.

00:31:29.687 --> 00:31:35.877
My boyfriend at the time, which is now my
kid's dad and yeah, he learned to build

00:31:35.907 --> 00:31:40.577
kilns and make clay and I worked in the
studio and eventually and we lived with

00:31:40.577 --> 00:31:44.877
him and eventually he and his girlfriend
moved out and we took that house over

00:31:45.347 --> 00:31:47.117
and that's when we start our family.

00:31:47.117 --> 00:31:51.157
We had our garden and it was all
really about growing your own food.

00:31:51.187 --> 00:31:53.407
So you have healthy, good food to eat.

00:31:53.467 --> 00:31:56.557
And I had my babies and
Yeah, we were hippies.

00:31:56.577 --> 00:32:02.007
We were just wanting to live a good,
clean life and live on the land.

00:32:02.007 --> 00:32:06.487
It was, I remember the book,
Touch the Earth what was happening

00:32:06.487 --> 00:32:10.427
with all the First Nation people
and the inhumanity with that.

00:32:10.437 --> 00:32:15.767
And that started to awaken in
me and how they had it all.

00:32:17.237 --> 00:32:22.262
You know, it was, Going back to
the earth started studying herbs

00:32:22.452 --> 00:32:26.762
Jethro Kloss wrote back to Eden.

00:32:27.172 --> 00:32:32.892
So it was all the natural remedies
and teas and herbs dry brushing and

00:32:36.242 --> 00:32:37.922
yeah, how to take care of ourselves.

00:32:37.922 --> 00:32:39.552
We weren't taught that in school.

00:32:39.812 --> 00:32:44.852
So that was really my awakening to
yeah, we call hippies, hippies were

00:32:45.512 --> 00:32:50.132
just wanting to live in nature with.

00:32:50.962 --> 00:32:58.042
The earth and the elements and, and
caring about each other and having it

00:32:58.042 --> 00:33:04.692
more about what's, you know, in our
hearts and what brings us joy rather

00:33:04.692 --> 00:33:09.727
than making the great, or getting the
job or having the degree or any of that.

00:33:09.732 --> 00:33:13.957
How can we live in harmony
with the creatures and each

00:33:13.957 --> 00:33:15.427
other and ourselves and,

00:33:17.247 --> 00:33:17.397
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:33:17.397 --> 00:33:20.397
You, you married this to a very,
very good sense of business.

00:33:23.267 --> 00:33:23.557
Yes.

00:33:24.277 --> 00:33:27.687
Why were those two things
not diametrically opposed?

00:33:31.347 --> 00:33:33.017
Jill Cohen: Because of
who my parents were.

00:33:33.027 --> 00:33:39.247
My dad, he saw my love for pottery and
thought, okay, how, instead of shoving

00:33:39.257 --> 00:33:43.367
her into a university, you know, he
gave me opportunities to actually

00:33:43.767 --> 00:33:46.027
put my, my dad was a hands on person.

00:33:46.687 --> 00:33:47.887
God, he could do a lecture.

00:33:47.887 --> 00:33:50.107
He was an amazing shipwright.

00:33:50.107 --> 00:33:51.967
I mean, he could remodel the entire house.

00:33:52.017 --> 00:33:53.037
He could do all the plumbing.

00:33:53.037 --> 00:33:57.357
He could do all the wiring and
he learned that from his father.

00:33:57.852 --> 00:34:03.252
Who was an attorney who worked his way
as a little Romanian boy working for

00:34:03.252 --> 00:34:08.462
his father, who was a tailor to put
himself through Columbia Law School.

00:34:08.632 --> 00:34:11.412
This comes, this is in my,
these are my ancestors.

00:34:11.412 --> 00:34:15.242
This is a genetic

00:34:18.272 --> 00:34:19.312
part of my fiber.

00:34:21.432 --> 00:34:22.452
It's like, anything's possible.

00:34:22.762 --> 00:34:23.692
It came from that.

00:34:24.087 --> 00:34:24.887
And you gotta do it.

00:34:24.887 --> 00:34:25.297
You do it.

00:34:25.297 --> 00:34:26.067
You work hard.

00:34:26.067 --> 00:34:29.507
I mean, my dad would put me under the
house and I'd be running wires and,

00:34:29.907 --> 00:34:32.447
you know, we did, we, we, we worked.

00:34:32.447 --> 00:34:33.027
We did it.

00:34:33.137 --> 00:34:33.627
Yeah, people

00:34:33.627 --> 00:34:37.857
Rupert Isaacson: often think that
hippiness was somehow a counter thing

00:34:37.857 --> 00:34:40.077
to work, not opting out of work.

00:34:40.427 --> 00:34:42.177
And it seems that it really wasn't.

00:34:42.207 --> 00:34:42.447
No.

00:34:43.512 --> 00:34:44.012
Jill Cohen: Oh, my God.

00:34:44.012 --> 00:34:45.512
Yeah, we built our own kiln.

00:34:45.512 --> 00:34:47.152
We made our, you know, our own clay.

00:34:47.152 --> 00:34:50.122
It was, it was like, we
worked, we planted our garden.

00:34:50.182 --> 00:34:55.892
I had a horse in my backyard and it was
you know, I, I tie dyed my own clothes.

00:34:55.892 --> 00:34:58.402
I sewed my own clothes, you
know, it was like, it was work.

00:34:58.402 --> 00:35:01.782
It was, you make it, you do
it, you want it, you create it.

00:35:01.942 --> 00:35:05.822
And it was like, my parents showed
me that my mother gave me the, yeah.

00:35:06.287 --> 00:35:10.227
support that Jill, you can do
and be anything you want to do.

00:35:10.237 --> 00:35:15.237
It's like, and I believed her and
my dad showed me how you just do

00:35:15.237 --> 00:35:15.447
Rupert Isaacson: it.

00:35:15.627 --> 00:35:26.747
We know that you went from this successful
business in pottery to one in human clay.

00:35:28.487 --> 00:35:31.707
Talk us through the,
from one to the other.

00:35:32.387 --> 00:35:34.817
And by the way, have you
taken pottery with you?

00:35:36.577 --> 00:35:37.607
Jill Cohen: Yeah, I can sit.

00:35:38.432 --> 00:35:42.392
I sat down at a potter's wheel a
few years ago and I was like, boom,

00:35:42.392 --> 00:35:44.352
I hadn't done it for 20 years.

00:35:44.352 --> 00:35:47.352
And it's all that's in my hands.

00:35:47.372 --> 00:35:48.932
It's, it's, it's there.

00:35:48.932 --> 00:35:52.702
It's I still, I'm still a potter.

00:35:53.162 --> 00:35:55.912
I'm not doing it as a living and
I'm kind of somebody that gets

00:35:55.922 --> 00:35:57.642
into things when I get into it.

00:35:57.692 --> 00:35:59.172
I get into it fully.

00:35:59.342 --> 00:35:59.622
I'm.

00:36:00.387 --> 00:36:03.637
Not a half ass, so it's like, I'm
not going to go to the college and

00:36:03.647 --> 00:36:06.707
throw pots and then have to, it's
like, I've got to have my own studio.

00:36:07.277 --> 00:36:10.397
So I really looked at it and I
love the clay and I love that.

00:36:10.397 --> 00:36:13.827
But I, but I still get to
be a potter with people.

00:36:13.887 --> 00:36:20.047
I get to still touch the clay
in with the human element added.

00:36:20.622 --> 00:36:22.482
to it with the water, earth, fire, and

00:36:22.502 --> 00:36:22.812
Rupert Isaacson: air.

00:36:23.182 --> 00:36:26.082
Talk us again through, how did
you, how did that jump happen?

00:36:28.452 --> 00:36:31.992
Jill Cohen: Well, we were, we were living,
we were living in our house, we were

00:36:31.992 --> 00:36:35.872
renting, we were renting this little
place, we had a huge piece of land, had

00:36:35.872 --> 00:36:40.962
a pottery studio, we had our, we sold our
pots in front of our house, the dog would

00:36:40.962 --> 00:36:43.132
bark, they'd ring the bell, we'd come out.

00:36:43.562 --> 00:36:46.732
And sell pots and then
we got 30 days notice.

00:36:46.782 --> 00:36:47.432
We had to move.

00:36:48.912 --> 00:36:52.952
So in that time, I had gone, my best
friend had moved to Austin, Texas.

00:36:53.582 --> 00:36:58.822
Austin was just an awesome
little town back then in 79.

00:36:58.912 --> 00:37:00.922
It was really because the
year John Lennon died.

00:37:00.922 --> 00:37:02.442
I remember that distinctly.

00:37:03.162 --> 00:37:09.082
And the first Whole Foods yeah, so, so
I went and visited, visited my friend.

00:37:09.502 --> 00:37:12.222
I said, I want to live here, so I
rented a place and I came home and

00:37:12.222 --> 00:37:13.662
I said, we're moving to Austin.

00:37:13.702 --> 00:37:14.552
Let's pack it up.

00:37:15.142 --> 00:37:19.402
And we, we, I had a flatbed
truck and we had a Volkswagen

00:37:19.992 --> 00:37:22.952
bus and we caravan to Austin.

00:37:22.952 --> 00:37:26.232
We brought the kill on the back and
we had the dog and the bird and the

00:37:26.232 --> 00:37:34.372
kids and we moved to Austin and, I
worked for, I worked with, with Joy.

00:37:34.382 --> 00:37:35.912
She had your heart's desire.

00:37:35.912 --> 00:37:38.592
We did vegetarian and
catering and housecleaning.

00:37:38.952 --> 00:37:41.122
So we did that together
for a couple of years.

00:37:41.602 --> 00:37:44.552
And then I started touching
people and then people started

00:37:44.552 --> 00:37:45.692
to ask me to touch them.

00:37:45.692 --> 00:37:47.062
And I thought, well, why, why don't

00:37:47.302 --> 00:37:48.292
Rupert Isaacson: you
start to touch people?

00:37:48.322 --> 00:37:51.252
Well, you weren't doing that before.

00:37:51.262 --> 00:37:54.632
And then suddenly you were, there's no,
there's some connection story there.

00:37:55.092 --> 00:37:55.622
What is it?

00:37:56.672 --> 00:37:56.832
The

00:37:56.882 --> 00:37:57.452
Jill Cohen: pain.

00:37:57.492 --> 00:37:58.652
I mean, people's pain.

00:37:58.652 --> 00:38:03.322
If I could touch people and it helped
them release pain, it was just...

00:38:03.742 --> 00:38:06.442
Rupert Isaacson: But you presumably might
have been doing that before, or did you

00:38:06.452 --> 00:38:08.452
suddenly only start doing that in Austin?

00:38:08.682 --> 00:38:09.452
And if so, why?

00:38:09.772 --> 00:38:10.242
No,

00:38:10.252 --> 00:38:13.662
Jill Cohen: Ross and I, so we would,
we would, yeah, we were throwing pots.

00:38:13.662 --> 00:38:19.292
I was unloading tons of clay
and it's hard work and...

00:38:20.022 --> 00:38:33.302
We, I went and found this book called the
book of massage and it had techniques of

00:38:33.372 --> 00:38:36.152
different massage techniques of how to.

00:38:37.557 --> 00:38:42.177
You know, work on the shoulders or it
was just, it was a hand illustrated book

00:38:42.177 --> 00:38:46.427
called the book of massage and we, we
would practice techniques on each other.

00:38:46.427 --> 00:38:50.027
And I was like, oh, this is an,
you know, it came really easily.

00:38:50.337 --> 00:38:51.517
It was kind of a no brainer.

00:38:51.517 --> 00:38:55.747
It's like, I knew how to touch
clay and after a while, got good

00:38:55.747 --> 00:39:03.987
at it and it just transferred
over from my hands to people and.

00:39:04.852 --> 00:39:10.602
Didn't want to start up another business
of pottery that was too much groundwork.

00:39:10.672 --> 00:39:12.732
So I guess I just, I don't know.

00:39:12.962 --> 00:39:15.022
It was just, I'm drawn to people.

00:39:15.022 --> 00:39:17.132
It's like, that's how I
connect is through touch.

00:39:17.592 --> 00:39:19.852
It's really how I
connect is through touch.

00:39:20.982 --> 00:39:21.422
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:39:21.422 --> 00:39:26.392
So now you're, so yeah, basically you
were working your body out massively

00:39:26.402 --> 00:39:27.262
through unloading all this care.

00:39:27.672 --> 00:39:31.502
I know you, you're, you're one of
these people who looks small and frail.

00:39:31.897 --> 00:39:36.807
You're five foot or so or five foot one
and you're slightly built and so on but

00:39:36.807 --> 00:39:41.047
I know how Actually, you know, like many
people like that actually much much much

00:39:41.047 --> 00:39:47.557
stronger than you appear But you have this
sort of live Dancers, you know physique.

00:39:47.907 --> 00:39:53.417
So that's some toll is being
taken as you're you know Unloading

00:39:53.417 --> 00:39:54.977
these many many tons of clay.

00:39:55.187 --> 00:39:57.237
Actually, it would be the same
whatever physique you had.

00:39:57.957 --> 00:40:03.717
So you get interested in Massage and touch
simply because you and your partner are

00:40:03.727 --> 00:40:05.357
hurting because you're working so hard.

00:40:05.357 --> 00:40:06.097
Exactly.

00:40:06.197 --> 00:40:06.357
Exactly

00:40:06.897 --> 00:40:07.067
Jill Cohen: That's the

00:40:09.367 --> 00:40:12.497
Rupert Isaacson: missing piece
for me and then and then you start

00:40:12.497 --> 00:40:14.487
transferring that over to other
people and people start going.

00:40:14.517 --> 00:40:15.537
Oh, actually sure.

00:40:15.537 --> 00:40:16.987
You're good at this Wow, I feel better.

00:40:17.287 --> 00:40:21.977
So you decide to take it further and
we know from what you said earlier,

00:40:22.067 --> 00:40:29.247
that you Then from there found your
way to the releasing Of the, what's now

00:40:29.247 --> 00:40:35.107
mainstream, but back then was by no means
mainstream, you know, myofascial relief.

00:40:35.107 --> 00:40:35.967
People didn't even know what it was.

00:40:35.967 --> 00:40:36.667
Now people do.

00:40:37.137 --> 00:40:38.777
Now people pay, you
know, big bucks for it.

00:40:38.777 --> 00:40:42.587
But back then it was a, you know,
a fringe thing at best, but you've

00:40:42.587 --> 00:40:47.137
been exploring this for decades
and helping people become unstuck.

00:40:48.517 --> 00:40:54.407
And yet you found yourself
stuck quite a few times.

00:40:55.157 --> 00:40:56.637
So talk us through.

00:40:57.967 --> 00:41:04.247
The various stucknesses from the
green ones over to the red ones

00:41:05.777 --> 00:41:09.367
How has this practice of yours?

00:41:10.027 --> 00:41:15.107
Allowed you to continue to self actualize
even when it's like you've taken a

00:41:16.077 --> 00:41:19.927
blind turn in the labyrinth and have
hit the dead end I think many many

00:41:19.927 --> 00:41:23.007
listeners here and this is why I want
you to prick up your ears listeners

00:41:23.537 --> 00:41:29.162
if you think you're stuck If you think
you've been stuck for years, you're

00:41:29.162 --> 00:41:30.782
listening to a podcast like this.

00:41:32.382 --> 00:41:35.492
Of course, every single person on
this podcast has been stuck at various

00:41:35.522 --> 00:41:40.922
times, but I think Jill has a particular
relationship with this and therefore some

00:41:40.922 --> 00:41:42.222
really good pearls of wisdom for you.

00:41:42.222 --> 00:41:46.812
So Jill, your stucknesses, how
have you gotten through them?

00:41:48.122 --> 00:41:51.212
Jill Cohen: The way out is in,
I had to go deeper, I had to

00:41:51.212 --> 00:41:57.582
really go in and feel and feel the
stuckness, really face it dead on.

00:41:58.282 --> 00:42:04.752
And I mean, I've had, I've been
a pretty introspective person.

00:42:07.702 --> 00:42:08.092
I've

00:42:08.372 --> 00:42:10.332
I had to really go into my stuckness.

00:42:10.952 --> 00:42:12.912
I had to feel the limitations of it.

00:42:13.482 --> 00:42:13.842
What was

00:42:13.842 --> 00:42:15.542
Rupert Isaacson: stuckness
number one, would you say?

00:42:15.762 --> 00:42:18.772
What was the first big one
that came and went, you're not

00:42:18.772 --> 00:42:19.992
moving any fucking further?

00:42:21.172 --> 00:42:21.622
You're now stuck.

00:42:21.622 --> 00:42:22.112
Sequoia.

00:42:22.812 --> 00:42:23.192
Okay.

00:42:23.412 --> 00:42:23.942
Sequoia.

00:42:24.152 --> 00:42:24.362
Tell us

00:42:24.362 --> 00:42:25.002
Jill Cohen: about Sequoia.

00:42:25.142 --> 00:42:26.742
Sequoia is my grandson.

00:42:26.892 --> 00:42:27.522
He's 20.

00:42:27.522 --> 00:42:38.577
He just turned 23 and I was at his birth,
I got to assist in his birth and that

00:42:38.577 --> 00:42:44.327
little guy when he was six months old, he
looked at me and it was like, it was like

00:42:44.487 --> 00:42:48.627
a shockwave went through me and I just
realized you've come here to teach me.

00:42:50.027 --> 00:42:54.057
This, you're the reason I'm here
now, this, you're my teacher.

00:42:54.057 --> 00:42:55.147
You're my big teacher.

00:42:55.147 --> 00:42:57.347
It struck me so deeply.

00:42:57.347 --> 00:42:58.857
There's something about him.

00:42:59.587 --> 00:43:05.897
And as we watched him, he
was, you know, he didn't talk.

00:43:06.367 --> 00:43:08.027
He would line things up.

00:43:08.717 --> 00:43:12.977
Yeah, he'd come in the house and he'd
line shoes up, he'd pull, drag pairs

00:43:12.977 --> 00:43:18.297
across my oak floors to line them up
and went, huh, something's going on.

00:43:19.467 --> 00:43:28.617
And I had a woman that was a special ed
teacher from Berkeley and I said, you

00:43:28.617 --> 00:43:30.577
know, would you come meet my grandson?

00:43:31.347 --> 00:43:34.367
And she said, yeah, he's
definitely autistic.

00:43:34.367 --> 00:43:36.607
He is on the spectrum deeply.

00:43:36.617 --> 00:43:38.827
And I said, will you
come talk to my daughter?

00:43:39.717 --> 00:43:47.087
And she said she's gonna hate me
and it was like the most devastating

00:43:47.127 --> 00:43:51.427
thing because this child that
had been born as my teacher,

00:43:51.487 --> 00:43:54.407
just this golden, brilliant being

00:43:55.607 --> 00:43:58.127
was just differently expressed, really.

00:43:59.487 --> 00:44:01.567
But it felt like just...

00:44:02.297 --> 00:44:03.567
devastation

00:44:03.817 --> 00:44:06.527
the challenges and the
ability to communicate.

00:44:06.527 --> 00:44:09.917
And yes, his abilities were profound.

00:44:10.657 --> 00:44:15.127
But it was like, I could see
the and feel the devastation

00:44:15.127 --> 00:44:17.787
in my daughter and son in law.

00:44:18.947 --> 00:44:24.817
And that pain was just
like an arrow in my heart.

00:44:29.457 --> 00:44:30.227
And

00:44:34.817 --> 00:44:35.657
the love,

00:44:39.717 --> 00:44:41.657
just so deep, that I couldn't.

00:44:43.372 --> 00:44:44.642
make it different.

00:44:44.642 --> 00:44:45.862
I couldn't change it.

00:44:45.922 --> 00:44:48.722
So I went into it and

00:44:52.072 --> 00:44:53.762
let go of the label

00:44:56.902 --> 00:45:05.442
and was just with his humanness,
how he showed up and it brought

00:45:05.442 --> 00:45:10.632
me into a whole new world of
experience of what is possible.

00:45:11.392 --> 00:45:13.232
Yeah, I felt the stuckness.

00:45:13.232 --> 00:45:16.192
It was just like an arrow
in my heart in the pain.

00:45:17.792 --> 00:45:19.812
Rupert Isaacson: This is of
course, where we first met.

00:45:19.932 --> 00:45:25.162
So, for the listeners, I met Jill Right
when the horse boy movie and book came

00:45:25.162 --> 00:45:29.242
out in 2009, and we were doing, we did
a screening in Berkeley, California,

00:45:29.252 --> 00:45:33.782
if you remember, and you came up and
talked to me afterwards and said,

00:45:33.782 --> 00:45:35.582
I've got this grandson and so on.

00:45:35.592 --> 00:45:38.682
And what was interesting was
right before you, someone had

00:45:38.682 --> 00:45:41.182
come to talk to me who was.

00:45:41.652 --> 00:45:45.872
Completely, basically nonverbal,
who came with a minder, who wasn't

00:45:45.872 --> 00:45:50.822
autistic, but had suffered from a
40 year old man, terrible, terrible,

00:45:50.822 --> 00:45:52.772
terrible Lyme's, Lyme's disease.

00:45:53.592 --> 00:45:59.082
And was absolutely stuck inside
himself and the effort of expression

00:45:59.962 --> 00:46:03.682
caused his entire body to tremble
and could barely get words out.

00:46:03.802 --> 00:46:11.472
And I was just dealing with the
opening up of what autism and

00:46:12.002 --> 00:46:14.152
neuropsychiatric and neurocognitive.

00:46:15.537 --> 00:46:19.737
Some medically based some less medically
based can do I was just beginning to

00:46:19.737 --> 00:46:22.717
because the movie had come out the
book I'm out so, you know people were

00:46:22.717 --> 00:46:25.447
coming and presenting themselves in
front of me and I was beginning to the

00:46:29.387 --> 00:46:32.437
next person who came up to to talk to
me and I was already I was just sort

00:46:32.437 --> 00:46:37.997
of recovering from the basically the
sort of the the 20 minute education

00:46:37.997 --> 00:46:40.017
that this dude had just put me through.

00:46:40.157 --> 00:46:41.267
I didn't even know about limes.

00:46:41.277 --> 00:46:43.247
You know, I sort of knew that
something called limes existed.

00:46:43.247 --> 00:46:46.337
I had no idea it could harm
or affect a person like this.

00:46:46.337 --> 00:46:49.637
And I'm just, you know, processing that.

00:46:49.687 --> 00:46:52.467
I remember you show up and you
say, look, I've got this grandson

00:46:52.467 --> 00:46:53.717
who's kind of like your son.

00:46:54.817 --> 00:47:02.377
And we, I remember thinking immediately
when I met you, Oh, tribe member.

00:47:02.947 --> 00:47:06.657
And you know, I have, I have an
Ashkenazi, an Ashkenazi Jewish

00:47:07.447 --> 00:47:08.877
side of my family as well.

00:47:08.917 --> 00:47:13.607
And I'm a great believer that probably
we're all sorts of cousins really because

00:47:13.617 --> 00:47:17.807
it wasn't that big of a population and
then it got blown into the diaspora.

00:47:18.397 --> 00:47:26.547
And then you came out to text ironically
to Austin, which for so long with Sequoia.

00:47:26.547 --> 00:47:29.697
And I remember looking at
Siquoia and going, wow, he's.

00:47:30.692 --> 00:47:31.992
He's more severe than my kid.

00:47:32.352 --> 00:47:37.502
He's, he's, he's in another
league and I saw the

00:47:37.612 --> 00:47:46.172
the intensity of the effort and the
uncertainty and the devotion and the

00:47:47.490 --> 00:47:51.580
In German you say schwerigkeit,
you know, the, the, the, the, the,

00:47:51.600 --> 00:47:54.470
the weight of this whole thing.

00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:58.780
And yet you retained, you and your
daughter actually retained joy

00:48:00.110 --> 00:48:03.080
and imparted this into Sequoia.

00:48:03.580 --> 00:48:07.050
I know that there were many ups
and downs later with Sequoia,

00:48:09.290 --> 00:48:12.190
yet it stuck you in some ways.

00:48:12.220 --> 00:48:18.120
In that you had to then basically turn
over your land, your practice, your...

00:48:19.205 --> 00:48:27.215
Forces your time, your life to
be in service to your grandson.

00:48:27.535 --> 00:48:30.275
And then I remember you saying,
you know, sometimes there'd be

00:48:31.545 --> 00:48:33.925
something happening and I'd say, Oh,
Joel, do you want to come to this?

00:48:33.945 --> 00:48:37.285
He'd be like, Rue, I can't,
I'm, I, I, I'm stuck yet.

00:48:37.285 --> 00:48:41.255
I have to do this and, and, and me
thinking, yeah, yeah, you're right.

00:48:41.285 --> 00:48:42.145
You, you do.

00:48:43.265 --> 00:48:43.405
But.

00:48:45.075 --> 00:48:46.845
Wanting to honor the

00:48:50.035 --> 00:48:57.685
the devotion that you were that you were
making How did you feel your quote unquote

00:48:58.115 --> 00:49:02.365
stuckness with suddenly saying no, okay
I've just got to sit here in Santa Cruz

00:49:02.365 --> 00:49:10.455
and create a world for my for my Grandson
who can't yet deal with the outside world.

00:49:10.675 --> 00:49:12.145
How do you feel that that stuckness?

00:49:13.185 --> 00:49:15.505
Unstuck you or how do you feel?

00:49:16.325 --> 00:49:17.605
How do you feel it self actualized you?

00:49:19.660 --> 00:49:21.790
Jill Cohen: So I have
been so deeply guided.

00:49:22.420 --> 00:49:27.440
I mean, so to back up before I met
you, I was back riding with Sequoia.

00:49:27.520 --> 00:49:30.450
It was happening the first time
the kids brought him to the ranch.

00:49:30.450 --> 00:49:31.820
I said, here, hand him on up to me.

00:49:31.910 --> 00:49:34.520
This was before I met you,
no horseplay happening.

00:49:34.520 --> 00:49:37.180
I was just listening
to the inner guidance.

00:49:37.460 --> 00:49:39.920
Give him to me, sat him in
the saddle in front of me.

00:49:40.655 --> 00:49:43.035
He was nonverbal, pretty much nonverbal.

00:49:44.795 --> 00:49:50.055
We walk off and in 30 seconds,
he's singing the ABC song with the

00:49:50.055 --> 00:49:52.335
little tune, A, B, C, D, singing.

00:49:52.595 --> 00:49:55.115
And then he goes into
some little cowboy jingle.

00:49:55.385 --> 00:49:58.785
And I'm just like, I come back, I
ride to the kids, tears are flowing.

00:49:59.175 --> 00:50:01.075
It's like, he's here.

00:50:01.125 --> 00:50:03.045
It's like, this is, I go,
there's something here.

00:50:03.575 --> 00:50:06.315
So started riding with him regularly.

00:50:07.285 --> 00:50:12.865
And then maybe a year later, my
mare was just ready to give birth.

00:50:13.195 --> 00:50:16.755
She was in the pasture with another
mare that had just had a baby.

00:50:17.445 --> 00:50:20.855
That was six months old and I
said, you know, to the mayor, I

00:50:20.885 --> 00:50:24.925
said, I said, I said, Rosie, you're
on take care of things tonight.

00:50:25.015 --> 00:50:26.375
You know, like, take care of my mayor.

00:50:26.375 --> 00:50:28.155
I know she's going to
get birth give birth.

00:50:28.575 --> 00:50:34.465
And as I'm driving out of the ranch, I
hear this voice, this vision that says

00:50:34.475 --> 00:50:36.925
you need to go find the Mongolian healers.

00:50:39.255 --> 00:50:47.715
Boom left with that months later, somebody
says, Hey, there's this movie documentary

00:50:47.715 --> 00:50:50.225
that's been made called the horse boy.

00:50:50.225 --> 00:50:50.265
It's.

00:50:50.930 --> 00:50:53.360
showing up in Berkeley, you
might want to go check it out.

00:50:53.550 --> 00:50:56.230
And that's when I got online,
got tickets, made sure.

00:50:57.150 --> 00:50:58.110
And then I met you.

00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:00.190
How do you feel?

00:51:00.350 --> 00:51:01.230
So guidance.

00:51:01.660 --> 00:51:06.675
So the inner guidance and listening
and where, where did I got unstuck?

00:51:06.695 --> 00:51:08.315
It was like, I stayed open

00:51:09.845 --> 00:51:11.875
Rupert Isaacson: in the
self actualization thing.

00:51:12.215 --> 00:51:15.840
You know, a lot of people might
feel if they're in a situation like

00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:21.700
that, where you're serving a special
needs kid or a sick family member

00:51:21.700 --> 00:51:28.090
or something and you've just got to
fucking stay there probably for years.

00:51:30.370 --> 00:51:39.790
You've by now built against the odds,
you know, most mainstream Westerners

00:51:39.790 --> 00:51:43.450
feel that, you know, you can't be a
good capitalist and be a hippie or

00:51:43.450 --> 00:51:45.900
you can't be a good capitalist and be
a tree hugger and we know this is not

00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:47.860
true at all, but you've proved it.

00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:51.310
You've, you've by this time built
your business, you've bought land in.

00:51:51.625 --> 00:51:55.645
Santa Cruz, California, which is
ridiculous expensive and you've got

00:51:55.655 --> 00:51:59.475
horses and you've got these beautiful
yurts and you're doing this amazing body

00:51:59.475 --> 00:52:02.395
work and you don't even have to advertise
it now everyone and their dog is trying

00:52:02.395 --> 00:52:04.175
to come to you, turning people away.

00:52:04.285 --> 00:52:06.955
And you've, you've traveled
all over the world.

00:52:06.955 --> 00:52:08.725
As you say, you, you were
married to the Swede.

00:52:08.725 --> 00:52:09.635
You were married to this other guy.

00:52:09.635 --> 00:52:11.715
You, you, you've sailed
all over the world.

00:52:11.815 --> 00:52:13.065
You, you, you, you lived here.

00:52:13.065 --> 00:52:13.785
You live there.

00:52:13.785 --> 00:52:14.585
You've been in Mexico.

00:52:14.785 --> 00:52:18.025
This is that and suddenly screeching hole.

00:52:19.045 --> 00:52:19.775
And.

00:52:20.315 --> 00:52:25.615
I also know that when you have a big
special needs thing like this come

00:52:25.615 --> 00:52:29.945
into your life, it can, it can throw
a massive spanner into the wrench of

00:52:29.945 --> 00:52:35.335
your business, because the time that
it takes to look after this person

00:52:35.655 --> 00:52:38.825
takes time from making a living.

00:52:40.365 --> 00:52:42.575
How did the process with your...

00:52:43.295 --> 00:52:45.795
grandson help you self actualize

00:52:45.825 --> 00:52:46.205
Jill Cohen: further?

00:52:47.845 --> 00:52:48.765
I did my work.

00:52:48.765 --> 00:52:49.955
I felt my feelings.

00:52:49.955 --> 00:52:52.185
I did my own interpersonal work.

00:52:52.355 --> 00:52:53.215
I raged.

00:52:54.135 --> 00:52:54.395
Okay.

00:52:54.435 --> 00:52:59.775
I raged and I cried and I screamed
and I stomped and, and, and I did it

00:53:00.445 --> 00:53:07.085
consciously by choice because I knew going
in the way, you know, the way in is out.

00:53:09.805 --> 00:53:10.205
Okay.

00:53:11.195 --> 00:53:12.175
Rupert Isaacson: The way in is out.

00:53:12.405 --> 00:53:15.405
That sounds awfully
close to Marcus Aurelius.

00:53:15.785 --> 00:53:18.015
What stands in that was
a stoic philosopher.

00:53:18.155 --> 00:53:19.405
What stands in the way.

00:53:20.195 --> 00:53:22.745
The impediment to action increases action.

00:53:22.745 --> 00:53:24.295
What stands in the way becomes the way.

00:53:25.095 --> 00:53:26.535
Can you go deeper with this for us?

00:53:26.575 --> 00:53:26.885
Yeah.

00:53:26.935 --> 00:53:27.195
Yeah.

00:53:30.345 --> 00:53:32.645
Jill Cohen: And the way knows
the way it's trusting the way

00:53:32.645 --> 00:53:33.965
it's trusting mother life.

00:53:33.965 --> 00:53:38.145
It's trusting the, it's like,
you're not going to paddle upstream.

00:53:38.185 --> 00:53:38.845
That's ridiculous.

00:53:38.845 --> 00:53:39.815
That's ridiculous.

00:53:41.015 --> 00:53:46.795
You know train comes down the track
you get on or you're gonna get dragged.

00:53:47.255 --> 00:53:48.245
Yeah, so

00:53:48.595 --> 00:53:52.485
Rupert Isaacson: I went into it Okay, so
you you you you you go into your feelings

00:53:52.485 --> 00:53:58.725
you rage consciously you cry consciously
You go into your feelings you get in the

00:53:58.725 --> 00:54:00.555
canoe you go downstream not upstream.

00:54:01.515 --> 00:54:02.965
Where does it bring you out?

00:54:04.185 --> 00:54:07.835
I trust mother life What happened though?

00:54:07.835 --> 00:54:09.045
Tell us the story.

00:54:09.055 --> 00:54:13.795
What, what, what you, you, you
then, you then went away from that

00:54:13.795 --> 00:54:17.435
brief time that we had together
with Sequoia in Austin on our ranch.

00:54:17.755 --> 00:54:22.105
You then had many, many years
of somewhat what to the outside

00:54:22.105 --> 00:54:23.165
I could look like a stuckness.

00:54:23.175 --> 00:54:25.235
How, how did that, where did it leave you?

00:54:25.235 --> 00:54:26.035
Where did it bring you?

00:54:27.235 --> 00:54:29.105
Jill Cohen: I stayed present with my life.

00:54:29.205 --> 00:54:30.515
I stayed, you know.

00:54:31.300 --> 00:54:32.610
Picking up a lot of horseshit.

00:54:32.670 --> 00:54:34.790
That's where I'd get
my biggest revelations.

00:54:34.790 --> 00:54:37.950
I stayed, you know, I showed up for work.

00:54:37.950 --> 00:54:39.150
I did my laundry.

00:54:39.150 --> 00:54:42.300
I, I, I stayed with it.

00:54:42.300 --> 00:54:42.930
I cared.

00:54:42.930 --> 00:54:43.530
I cried.

00:54:43.530 --> 00:54:44.500
I felt the pain.

00:54:44.570 --> 00:54:50.390
And I knew that, you know,
I had to pay my mortgage.

00:54:50.430 --> 00:54:51.760
You got to pay property taxes.

00:54:51.770 --> 00:54:52.390
You got to eat.

00:54:52.560 --> 00:54:53.570
I want a good life.

00:54:53.610 --> 00:54:54.580
I'm going to show up.

00:54:54.590 --> 00:54:56.610
My father showed me
that you don't give up.

00:54:57.445 --> 00:55:03.985
You just keep, you do it and it's, and
it's, it's I don't know, I'm stubborn,

00:55:03.985 --> 00:55:09.125
I'm, I'm strong willed and and I'm
passionate about life and I'm deeply

00:55:09.125 --> 00:55:16.095
grateful for this human birth, sort of,
most of the time, sometimes it sucks.

00:55:17.050 --> 00:55:20.970
But I allow myself to feel
the feels and I go into it.

00:55:21.180 --> 00:55:22.800
I don't push it away.

00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:24.190
I don't I own it.

00:55:24.190 --> 00:55:26.200
I don't want to be a victim.

00:55:26.260 --> 00:55:29.270
It's like, I'm too, my
ego's too big for that.

00:55:29.970 --> 00:55:31.190
I set intentions.

00:55:31.190 --> 00:55:32.790
I look into the future.

00:55:32.790 --> 00:55:34.380
What do I want in my life?

00:55:34.410 --> 00:55:37.050
I don't want to be, I
don't want to stay stuck.

00:55:37.050 --> 00:55:40.510
I want to, in my stuckness, I want
to be fucking great in my stuckness.

00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:47.670
I don't want to be a miserable, you know,
I don't want to waste this lifetime.

00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:53.190
Rupert Isaacson: I suppose you could argue
that clay is a, is a, is a, is a material

00:55:53.190 --> 00:55:54.680
that is both stuck and unstuck, right?

00:55:54.680 --> 00:56:01.020
It's, it's, it's, it cloys and it
fires and then it holds for thousands

00:56:01.020 --> 00:56:03.720
of years, possibly even fossilizes.

00:56:04.560 --> 00:56:08.270
And at the same time, it's totally
malleable within its stuckness.

00:56:09.220 --> 00:56:11.290
Where did the.

00:56:11.925 --> 00:56:16.425
journey with Sequoia and not just Sequoia
because I know that you gave up a lot,

00:56:16.465 --> 00:56:21.675
you know, proportion of your property, not
just to him, but to his parents and you,

00:56:22.395 --> 00:56:25.465
you gave over a lot of your living space.

00:56:25.930 --> 00:56:27.240
To this, you didn't run away from it.

00:56:27.450 --> 00:56:27.690
Well,

00:56:27.690 --> 00:56:30.130
Jill Cohen: actually, okay,
I have to be fully honest.

00:56:30.170 --> 00:56:31.470
I owned my old house.

00:56:31.980 --> 00:56:35.420
Rachel and Leon and I said,
let's bring the horses home.

00:56:35.770 --> 00:56:39.130
This is the way, you know,
the horse is amazing.

00:56:39.140 --> 00:56:40.760
Let's let's group together.

00:56:41.390 --> 00:56:44.180
So, I was a landlady
ran into my place out.

00:56:44.340 --> 00:56:46.150
I still owned the house.

00:56:46.310 --> 00:56:49.130
The bank wouldn't loan me the money.

00:56:49.750 --> 00:56:53.380
To go in so really the house is theirs.

00:56:53.410 --> 00:56:57.440
And yet I am a silent partner
because the bank loan loan, but if

00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.530
we sell, I've got a big piece of this

00:57:00.580 --> 00:57:00.890
Rupert Isaacson: right.

00:57:00.940 --> 00:57:03.200
But nonetheless, you set
up that whole structure.

00:57:03.230 --> 00:57:03.420
That's.

00:57:03.995 --> 00:57:06.355
And then you had to be physically present.

00:57:06.365 --> 00:57:09.445
You couldn't be like, well, you know,
I'll have, I'll have Sequoia maybe

00:57:09.455 --> 00:57:12.105
one, one weekend in three, perhaps.

00:57:12.335 --> 00:57:15.805
You're like, all the time, hands

00:57:20.025 --> 00:57:20.555
Jill Cohen: in the clay.

00:57:20.925 --> 00:57:26.980
He, his It was, yeah, in it there's so
many people out there that they, they

00:57:26.980 --> 00:57:31.620
know it off as our special ed teachers
or whatever, unless you live with

00:57:31.620 --> 00:57:35.400
it day and night, you really get it.

00:57:35.805 --> 00:57:41.525
It's huge, huge, huge, huge to windows
broken and holes and walls, even not

00:57:41.525 --> 00:57:44.995
in a angry, pick up a stick and boom.

00:57:45.005 --> 00:57:48.735
He's singing at the top of his lungs and
banging here with the stick banging there.

00:57:48.735 --> 00:57:49.625
There goes a window.

00:57:49.625 --> 00:57:50.275
There it goes.

00:57:50.405 --> 00:57:55.185
You know, it's like, it's just in
the fridge getting something out.

00:57:55.305 --> 00:57:57.925
Fridge doors open cashews everywhere.

00:58:00.365 --> 00:58:01.545
It's just, it's constant.

00:58:01.555 --> 00:58:04.685
Thank God he sang and he
was, he did find his voice.

00:58:04.965 --> 00:58:05.925
Then we knew where he was.

00:58:05.985 --> 00:58:06.895
That was a good thing.

00:58:07.045 --> 00:58:12.005
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, you have
a son who's so severely autistic that

00:58:12.015 --> 00:58:18.095
you then get real estate create a,
basically a family compound where you,

00:58:18.385 --> 00:58:21.655
your daughter and your son in law can
live with the horses because you're

00:58:21.655 --> 00:58:23.975
getting communication with the horses.

00:58:24.905 --> 00:58:32.625
But then you 24 seven looking
after your grandson with,

00:58:33.120 --> 00:58:34.860
enormously demanding special needs.

00:58:35.550 --> 00:58:36.470
He's incontinent.

00:58:36.490 --> 00:58:37.330
He's tantruming.

00:58:37.340 --> 00:58:40.000
He's like, my son was, he's wild.

00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:40.740
He's all over the place.

00:58:40.740 --> 00:58:41.470
He breaks stuff.

00:58:41.500 --> 00:58:43.620
He, you know, but you've
created the safe thing for him.

00:58:44.264 --> 00:58:48.094
How do you keep earning a
living while this is going on?

00:58:49.564 --> 00:58:49.814
I

00:58:49.814 --> 00:58:56.094
Jill Cohen: have my little treatment room
and pretty much he went to school for a

00:58:56.094 --> 00:58:58.494
time, but then that wasn't really great.

00:58:59.224 --> 00:59:02.054
So brought a home and yeah,
Rachel is home with them.

00:59:02.114 --> 00:59:03.904
Sometimes Leon would
have to come and help.

00:59:04.514 --> 00:59:09.764
I could treat I was on the
property in my studio and work.

00:59:09.934 --> 00:59:13.744
There were times when I got surprised
visited visits where he'd come

00:59:13.764 --> 00:59:15.164
barging into my treatment room.

00:59:15.164 --> 00:59:17.324
And luckily, all my
clients were aware and.

00:59:17.534 --> 00:59:21.784
Loving and thank God
these kids are amazing.

00:59:22.024 --> 00:59:25.484
I mean, there's just, even though
they're, you know, outside out of the

00:59:25.484 --> 00:59:29.124
box, they're, they're mostly beautiful.

00:59:29.144 --> 00:59:31.024
And and they're just being them.

00:59:31.144 --> 00:59:34.254
So, yeah, I'd get disrupted.

00:59:34.704 --> 00:59:36.784
Yeah, he's barged into my treatment rooms.

00:59:38.334 --> 00:59:43.094
A few times but it's just kind
of all part of the part of life.

00:59:43.584 --> 00:59:44.094
And then

00:59:44.194 --> 00:59:47.544
Rupert Isaacson: how, how would you say
that this stuckness, you're now after

00:59:47.554 --> 00:59:52.554
all this travel, after this life between
different continents and cities and

00:59:52.554 --> 00:59:58.344
sailing around the world and from earning
your own living through your hands from

00:59:58.864 --> 01:00:02.074
a teenager, and now suddenly you're
stuck, you're stuck on this property.

01:00:02.174 --> 01:00:03.084
And Well,

01:00:03.094 --> 01:00:06.274
Jill Cohen: frankly, I was
I was stuck with my horses.

01:00:06.274 --> 01:00:07.904
I was stuck with my family.

01:00:07.924 --> 01:00:10.304
I was stuck where I love.

01:00:10.334 --> 01:00:13.334
I'm not a big, I don't,
I've traveled the world.

01:00:13.334 --> 01:00:14.414
I feel like I've been.

01:00:14.414 --> 01:00:18.944
So it was like, kind of like, like,
I thought, okay, I guess I'm done.

01:00:18.984 --> 01:00:22.784
I mean, it did kind of yeah,
when I had to cancel my trip.

01:00:23.174 --> 01:00:25.744
Back to see you guys and ride with Sophia.

01:00:25.814 --> 01:00:28.214
That was, that was a pisser.

01:00:28.214 --> 01:00:32.074
And at the same time,
Rachel was super sick too.

01:00:32.814 --> 01:00:37.444
Yeah, man, everything, everything
kind of came together at that point.

01:00:37.474 --> 01:00:40.434
But it was like, you got
to do what's at hand.

01:00:40.594 --> 01:00:47.754
It's, it's not, there wasn't, I'm not
going to complain about it or be a victim.

01:00:47.774 --> 01:00:50.374
It's like, I still want to
be able to drive my own boat.

01:00:51.224 --> 01:00:54.984
So I owned it and went into it
and just saw this is where I am.

01:00:54.984 --> 01:00:58.634
This is how life is and I'm
going to live my life a hundred

01:00:58.634 --> 01:01:00.474
percent right where it is.

01:01:00.594 --> 01:01:02.104
And what did you,

01:01:03.544 --> 01:01:07.204
Rupert Isaacson: what did you do to, to,
to deal with the frustration of it all?

01:01:11.699 --> 01:01:17.679
Jill Cohen: I wasn't even able
to travel that much anymore.

01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:20.299
I got some body work, but not very much.

01:01:20.319 --> 01:01:22.649
Luckily, my daughter's
trained in the work that I do.

01:01:22.649 --> 01:01:25.959
We could work on each other and
actually Leon's pretty good too.

01:01:25.959 --> 01:01:27.719
So we would work on each other.

01:01:28.529 --> 01:01:32.409
Smoke pot, dance, get pissed off, garden.

01:01:32.809 --> 01:01:34.779
I could take the horses out, go ride.

01:01:35.539 --> 01:01:36.829
Did you rage and hit pillows?

01:01:38.569 --> 01:01:41.559
I sometimes yeah, but I
could do it therapeutically.

01:01:41.649 --> 01:01:44.579
I mean, it was like, yeah,
you got to get it out.

01:01:44.659 --> 01:01:47.139
It's like, yeah, I've raged.

01:01:47.139 --> 01:01:47.639
I can.

01:01:47.849 --> 01:01:49.159
Yeah, I could explode.

01:01:50.119 --> 01:01:54.299
You know, I could, and in
the my fascial work assisting

01:01:54.299 --> 01:01:55.439
that's that was kind of my job.

01:01:55.449 --> 01:01:58.189
I was good at, like, setting
rooms on fire and getting

01:01:58.189 --> 01:01:59.879
everybody to rage many pillows.

01:02:00.009 --> 01:02:00.569
We had a room.

01:02:00.954 --> 01:02:05.594
Yeah, 100 students once and I got
rocking and rolling and it's just

01:02:05.594 --> 01:02:07.854
amazing when you can get that out.

01:02:07.884 --> 01:02:13.094
It's like how the aliveness, you know,
instead of, instead of smoldering in it

01:02:13.094 --> 01:02:18.514
and getting small in it, I got big in it
and I, or, and I'd sit up on the hill.

01:02:18.514 --> 01:02:20.414
I'd get outside in nature.

01:02:20.414 --> 01:02:21.424
That was my biggest thing.

01:02:21.454 --> 01:02:25.204
Thank God we have seven acres here and
I can get out and get away from people.

01:02:25.884 --> 01:02:29.244
I can go down and be with the
horses, but really just, I need.

01:02:29.874 --> 01:02:36.324
A lot of what I needed was perspective,
and that's what really, really helped me.

01:02:36.754 --> 01:02:39.604
God, I remember one time having that
thought that, yeah, they could lock

01:02:39.604 --> 01:02:42.894
me up in a prison cell, but they
can't take me outside of myself.

01:02:43.254 --> 01:02:46.764
And I can close my eyes, and the
world is so fucking expansive.

01:02:46.994 --> 01:02:47.864
It's amazing.

01:02:48.354 --> 01:02:51.744
So it's like, it's like
there is no real stuckness.

01:02:51.754 --> 01:02:53.944
It's like you can feel, eh.

01:02:54.629 --> 01:02:58.149
You know, it's like, yeah, I would
have liked to have been going places

01:02:58.149 --> 01:03:03.449
and coming to visit and ride with you
and but it was what it was mine to do

01:03:03.509 --> 01:03:07.849
to care for my mom and to be here and
support my kids and Sequoia and love.

01:03:08.449 --> 01:03:10.059
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
now you said your mom.

01:03:10.169 --> 01:03:16.349
So for the listeners, our internet
pros, I'm getting Jill to, to

01:03:17.459 --> 01:03:19.379
retell what she already told me.

01:03:19.479 --> 01:03:22.829
So what happened is you're in the
midst of this whole thing with being

01:03:22.849 --> 01:03:27.809
a sort of full time Carer for a,
a very severely autistic grandson

01:03:27.809 --> 01:03:31.769
Jill Cohen: and wanting to set up a
horse boy camp and, you know, do stuff.

01:03:31.769 --> 01:03:34.619
You're wanting to expand that like, ah,

01:03:34.949 --> 01:03:35.609
Rupert Isaacson: and
then something happens.

01:03:35.749 --> 01:03:36.869
What happens with your mom?

01:03:36.989 --> 01:03:38.099
What happens with your mom?

01:03:38.099 --> 01:03:38.100
Mom,

01:03:38.569 --> 01:03:41.724
Jill Cohen: she gets diagnosed
with lung cancer and thank

01:03:41.729 --> 01:03:42.984
god they found it soon enough.

01:03:42.989 --> 01:03:44.784
She had a good oncologist.

01:03:45.434 --> 01:03:47.444
So I went down every
three weeks I would drive.

01:03:47.749 --> 01:03:52.449
I have to LA about a 6 hour drive and go
through, you know, be there to support her

01:03:52.449 --> 01:03:58.209
with her chemo and just buy good food and
stock her freezer with really good food

01:03:58.209 --> 01:04:01.749
and make sure that she had the nutritional
support to get her through this.

01:04:01.769 --> 01:04:03.689
Because she's been my.

01:04:04.034 --> 01:04:05.844
Biggest cheerleader in life.

01:04:05.944 --> 01:04:10.284
Yeah, did that and came home and
went back and came home and went

01:04:10.324 --> 01:04:14.484
back and she ended up getting
through it went in through remission.

01:04:14.484 --> 01:04:16.474
But at this point, she's what?

01:04:16.484 --> 01:04:18.194
83 years old.

01:04:18.194 --> 01:04:18.774
She'll be.

01:04:19.149 --> 01:04:24.509
Yeah, she'll be 89 in August and she had
been working but got to a point where

01:04:24.849 --> 01:04:28.869
she was not as clear as she had been.

01:04:28.879 --> 01:04:34.059
It started to lose her confidence and
didn't feel that she could really,

01:04:34.499 --> 01:04:36.099
didn't want to live on her own anymore.

01:04:36.209 --> 01:04:38.079
So she called and said,
can I come live with you?

01:04:38.879 --> 01:04:39.779
And I said, okay.

01:04:39.859 --> 01:04:40.569
I live in a yurt.

01:04:41.299 --> 01:04:46.239
I live on the land and she had a
beautiful spotless apartment and gorgeous.

01:04:46.984 --> 01:04:47.884
Decoration.

01:04:47.884 --> 01:04:49.844
And, you know, it's
like, this is a change.

01:04:49.844 --> 01:04:52.554
I live in a fricking yurt
and there's dirt everywhere.

01:04:53.284 --> 01:04:56.744
And it, she didn't skip a beat, man.

01:04:56.744 --> 01:05:01.114
She came up here and just loved it and
would sit on my deck and she could see

01:05:01.114 --> 01:05:06.094
the horses and loves my little dogs and
the birds, and I got to bring my mom to

01:05:06.094 --> 01:05:10.424
the country, what an opportunity for her
that had been a city girl her whole life.

01:05:10.874 --> 01:05:12.964
And she got to actually touch the earth.

01:05:14.129 --> 01:05:19.879
You know, it was such a gift to be
able to share that with her and to

01:05:21.779 --> 01:05:27.114
expand her life experience a little
bit, but slowly it's been, it's

01:05:27.114 --> 01:05:29.729
been a little over five years now.

01:05:29.729 --> 01:05:33.889
And, and I was excited she was going
to come live with me cause we used to

01:05:33.889 --> 01:05:37.839
love to play Scrabble and I pulled out
the Scrabble board when she first came

01:05:37.839 --> 01:05:39.919
to move and she forgot how to play.

01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:40.639
I don't know.

01:05:40.649 --> 01:05:41.179
Fuck.

01:05:42.839 --> 01:05:43.829
And she was good.

01:05:44.459 --> 01:05:45.189
Rupert Isaacson: The dementia.

01:05:45.189 --> 01:05:45.239
Yeah.

01:05:46.189 --> 01:05:46.849
Dementia.

01:05:46.850 --> 01:05:47.179
Dementia.

01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:50.419
So, so you go, so you go, you go,

01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:52.129
Jill Cohen: autism.

01:05:52.399 --> 01:05:55.229
I go, I can do dementia,
I can do autism, I can do

01:05:55.419 --> 01:05:55.689
Rupert Isaacson: dementia.

01:05:55.749 --> 01:05:56.039
What?

01:05:56.669 --> 01:05:57.409
Dementia.

01:05:58.389 --> 01:05:58.809
Yeah.

01:05:59.149 --> 01:06:02.449
And now you're, you're
still looking after your...

01:06:03.019 --> 01:06:04.599
Mother with dementia in a year.

01:06:05.839 --> 01:06:06.179
Yes.

01:06:06.479 --> 01:06:08.289
Jill Cohen: I put up a second year.

01:06:08.489 --> 01:06:12.199
So she has a little her own little
bedroom and then we have the big yard

01:06:12.199 --> 01:06:18.209
and I built an awesome bath house in
between and But it's like she's getting

01:06:18.209 --> 01:06:23.669
I she's my little girl and she's kind
of It's like, as long as I'm good and I

01:06:23.679 --> 01:06:26.639
keep myself together, I'm not a bitch.

01:06:27.279 --> 01:06:28.799
She's sweet as pie.

01:06:29.019 --> 01:06:33.379
She's just this little girl, wakes
up smiling every day, but she's

01:06:33.609 --> 01:06:35.319
putting her underwear on backwards.

01:06:35.529 --> 01:06:37.349
She's gets up at the middle of the night.

01:06:37.349 --> 01:06:38.499
What am I supposed to be doing?

01:06:38.499 --> 01:06:40.929
And it's like three in the morning,
you're supposed to be sleeping on.

01:06:42.069 --> 01:06:45.859
And it's like, I'm seeing it just
slipping and slipping and slipping.

01:06:45.859 --> 01:06:46.129
And.

01:06:47.059 --> 01:06:51.369
It's like, you know, it's like I, I go
in and I feel the vulnerability, she's

01:06:51.369 --> 01:06:58.129
aware of what's happening and I feel her
vulnerability and and her fear, but her

01:06:58.139 --> 01:07:00.229
fear isn't that big because she trusts me.

01:07:02.279 --> 01:07:02.589
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:07:03.439 --> 01:07:05.749
So, for the listeners, you don't
know what's just happened here.

01:07:06.889 --> 01:07:11.129
I thought Jo was looking away
from the camera and as she was

01:07:11.129 --> 01:07:12.019
looking away from the camera.

01:07:13.059 --> 01:07:20.369
Gub Rowan, my own beautiful, amazing
autistic son, who's here in Germany,

01:07:20.569 --> 01:07:26.589
who just arrived on an aeroplane
from Copenhagen today and found his

01:07:26.589 --> 01:07:32.359
own way from the airport here to our
little town in north of Frankfurt

01:07:32.459 --> 01:07:35.809
and has his own house, has his
own car, is at college has been.

01:07:36.549 --> 01:07:38.139
Going all over Germany by himself.

01:07:38.389 --> 01:07:39.659
And he's just coming to say hi!

01:07:40.019 --> 01:07:40.289
You're

01:07:40.289 --> 01:07:41.269
Jill Cohen: awesome, Scab!

01:07:41.269 --> 01:07:42.409
I miss you so much.

01:07:42.409 --> 01:07:43.619
I miss your big hugs.

01:07:43.749 --> 01:07:43.839
Oh

01:07:43.839 --> 01:07:44.449
Rupert Isaacson: my god.

01:07:44.499 --> 01:07:48.059
Scab, I'm just gonna put the, I'm
just gonna put the microphone on you.

01:07:48.059 --> 01:07:50.379
Do you want to say a
quick word to, to, to...

01:07:51.389 --> 01:07:53.149
But wait, wait, wait
till I put these on you.

01:07:53.959 --> 01:07:58.199
And now, fire away.

01:07:59.009 --> 01:08:00.739
Hang on one further second.

01:08:02.169 --> 01:08:02.709
Alright.

01:08:03.254 --> 01:08:05.344
Hello, aren't you from square peg?

01:08:06.304 --> 01:08:06.684
It's Jill.

01:08:06.684 --> 01:08:06.844
I

01:08:06.844 --> 01:08:09.754
Jill Cohen: am from down,
down the road from square peg.

01:08:10.494 --> 01:08:13.274
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, dad Jill, how are

01:08:13.274 --> 01:08:14.144
Jill Cohen: you doing?

01:08:14.684 --> 01:08:15.794
I'm doing well.

01:08:15.794 --> 01:08:16.984
It's good to see you.

01:08:17.094 --> 01:08:17.784
I love you.

01:08:18.884 --> 01:08:19.814
Oh, thank you.

01:08:20.374 --> 01:08:24.484
I remember your wonderful hugs when you
and dad would take me to the airport.

01:08:25.474 --> 01:08:26.764
Oh, I can feel them.

01:08:28.304 --> 01:08:28.904
I know.

01:08:28.954 --> 01:08:31.564
Rupert Isaacson: I remember
a time when I was into a rock

01:08:31.564 --> 01:08:33.874
radio station when you came too.

01:08:34.349 --> 01:08:34.989
Jill Cohen: In Austin.

01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:36.789
Totally.

01:08:36.919 --> 01:08:37.529
Totally.

01:08:37.919 --> 01:08:40.769
You were into Smokey and
the Bandit, as I recall.

01:08:41.019 --> 01:08:41.429
Oh, that

01:08:41.629 --> 01:08:42.679
Rupert Isaacson: still
happens from time to

01:08:42.679 --> 01:08:43.139
Jill Cohen: time.

01:08:43.979 --> 01:08:44.299
It does.

01:08:45.989 --> 01:08:47.639
Oh, and Madagascar.

01:08:47.689 --> 01:08:48.729
Our favorite movie.

01:08:49.549 --> 01:08:51.879
Oh, I've met so

01:08:51.879 --> 01:08:54.389
Rupert Isaacson: many fans along the way.

01:08:55.469 --> 01:08:56.229
Aww.

01:08:56.689 --> 01:08:57.459
I find it so

01:08:57.689 --> 01:08:58.369
Jill Cohen: fun to quote it.

01:08:59.579 --> 01:09:03.809
Yeah, well, it's so beautiful to
see you and you're just growing up

01:09:03.839 --> 01:09:06.309
and just a magnificent human being.

01:09:06.429 --> 01:09:06.969
I love you.

01:09:07.479 --> 01:09:08.759
I'm also side hugging

01:09:08.769 --> 01:09:10.149
Rupert Isaacson: my little bro, Kyrian.

01:09:10.859 --> 01:09:11.529
Jill Cohen: All right.

01:09:12.899 --> 01:09:13.179
Well, that

01:09:15.409 --> 01:09:17.804
Rupert Isaacson: was a, that
was a visit from royalty.

01:09:18.994 --> 01:09:20.124
Jill Cohen: What a treat.

01:09:20.294 --> 01:09:21.094
Oh my goodness.

01:09:21.374 --> 01:09:24.674
I can still feel his last hug
I got from him at the airport.

01:09:26.444 --> 01:09:27.624
Rupert Isaacson: The hugs just get better.

01:09:27.784 --> 01:09:30.654
And then he's coming to
live in Europe next year.

01:09:30.764 --> 01:09:33.794
It's all wonderful as his world expands.

01:09:35.304 --> 01:09:35.814
So that's

01:09:35.814 --> 01:09:37.234
Jill Cohen: where you can't be stuck.

01:09:37.234 --> 01:09:39.714
It's like, how can you be stuck in that?

01:09:40.234 --> 01:09:40.314
Exactly.

01:09:40.314 --> 01:09:40.414
Well, exactly.

01:09:40.414 --> 01:09:41.824
Rupert Isaacson: It's like, hello?

01:09:41.864 --> 01:09:48.234
But I, I think listeners need to,
to, could you talk them through that?

01:09:48.244 --> 01:09:51.374
Like you said, I got big within
the stuckness and we saw that now,

01:09:51.404 --> 01:09:53.774
you know, Rowan coming in and.

01:09:54.294 --> 01:09:57.954
Just blowing our world
open in that beautiful way.

01:09:58.394 --> 01:10:03.784
How did your experience, how has your
experience of having to basically go into

01:10:03.784 --> 01:10:11.334
service to sequoia, to then your mother's
cancer while doing sequoia, then to your

01:10:11.334 --> 01:10:13.804
mother's dementia while also with sequoia.

01:10:15.214 --> 01:10:19.434
How has this apparent stuckness
actually been self actualizing?

01:10:21.854 --> 01:10:25.004
Jill Cohen: It just, it's
deepening my quest for my own self

01:10:25.004 --> 01:10:27.514
compassion and my own self love.

01:10:27.524 --> 01:10:31.344
It's taking me to an inner
journey of loving myself.

01:10:32.154 --> 01:10:36.014
It's like, yeah, the way out is
in and it's like self realization

01:10:36.024 --> 01:10:37.954
and then boom, once you realize.

01:10:39.139 --> 01:10:44.129
You know, self realizes
there's, there's it all pops.

01:10:44.849 --> 01:10:47.399
Rupert Isaacson: What have you
realized about yourself through this?

01:10:48.219 --> 01:10:50.549
Jill Cohen: That I care deeply.

01:10:50.769 --> 01:10:57.359
And it's been external a lot of
the time and it's starting to turn.

01:10:59.489 --> 01:11:01.809
It's starting to turn inward.

01:11:02.249 --> 01:11:05.509
Really that there is no other that
they're just we're all doing this

01:11:05.579 --> 01:11:12.049
earth block and we all have this
very similar challenges at the core.

01:11:12.049 --> 01:11:16.449
They may look different with
different people, but everybody.

01:11:16.989 --> 01:11:19.499
Has to get up, everybody has to eat.

01:11:19.499 --> 01:11:24.989
Everybody has to, you know,
find a way to provide and

01:11:25.049 --> 01:11:27.219
I've got music that keeps popping on that.

01:11:27.219 --> 01:11:32.339
I have to turn off that
we're really all doing this.

01:11:33.769 --> 01:11:42.319
Our, our journeys are all kind of
the same in the fundamental human

01:11:42.869 --> 01:11:52.039
condition of finding joy our own
self expression to, I don't know,

01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:54.529
it's, it's, it's not my nature to

01:11:58.249 --> 01:12:05.249
go in and feel sorry for myself or
feel like somebody did it to me, or

01:12:05.249 --> 01:12:12.644
I was bad, so I'm being punished, or
it's, it's like my nature expanding

01:12:13.064 --> 01:12:17.374
into life and I can't deny that.

01:12:17.474 --> 01:12:21.084
It's like, it's about joy.

01:12:21.094 --> 01:12:21.774
It's about love.

01:12:21.774 --> 01:12:22.794
It's about service.

01:12:22.814 --> 01:12:23.944
It's like, I, it's,

01:12:24.194 --> 01:12:27.324
Rupert Isaacson: it's,
is it service that sets

01:12:27.324 --> 01:12:27.794
Jill Cohen: one free?

01:12:29.144 --> 01:12:30.264
Oh, absolutely.

01:12:30.264 --> 01:12:31.204
That's all there is.

01:12:31.679 --> 01:12:32.189
That's all.

01:12:32.189 --> 01:12:33.149
There is a service.

01:12:33.879 --> 01:12:40.709
And in service we, we come to love
ourselves in our humanity, in service.

01:12:40.819 --> 01:12:46.399
All there is a service really, or,
or we're in denial of what life.

01:12:46.399 --> 01:12:47.809
The opportunity of life.

01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:48.349
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:12:48.349 --> 01:12:50.719
So you say in service we
learn to love ourselves.

01:12:51.889 --> 01:12:52.159
Yeah.

01:12:52.249 --> 01:12:53.869
In service we learned about ourselves.

01:12:53.869 --> 01:12:54.809
I was gonna ask you.

01:12:56.599 --> 01:13:02.859
in this self actualization through
apparent stuckness while helping other

01:13:02.859 --> 01:13:05.299
people to become unstuck through.

01:13:06.149 --> 01:13:09.189
Jill Cohen: How can you be stuck
in loving other and serving?

01:13:09.189 --> 01:13:13.619
It's like, it's, it doesn't,
it's like magnets resist.

01:13:13.629 --> 01:13:19.319
It's like you can't serve and
not love or it's not service.

01:13:19.379 --> 01:13:19.729
It's.

01:13:20.019 --> 01:13:20.359
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:13:20.359 --> 01:13:22.319
But some people, some people self martyr.

01:13:22.979 --> 01:13:26.439
How have you, and I'm
sniffing the wind here.

01:13:27.189 --> 01:13:29.639
I'm not smelling burning Marta here.

01:13:29.879 --> 01:13:32.519
So, There's no, there's no barbecue smell.

01:13:32.899 --> 01:13:33.779
Quite the opposite.

01:13:34.829 --> 01:13:36.909
What, how have you learned?

01:13:37.179 --> 01:13:42.579
What, how, what techniques have
you learned for self love and

01:13:42.579 --> 01:13:44.069
resilience through all this?

01:13:47.329 --> 01:13:47.709
Drinking

01:13:47.709 --> 01:13:52.959
Jill Cohen: water, keeping the, keeping
the fluids moving, keeping my heart

01:13:52.959 --> 01:13:56.019
open, allowing myself to feel, to cry.

01:13:56.019 --> 01:13:56.809
When you say keeping

01:13:56.809 --> 01:13:58.179
Rupert Isaacson: your heart
open though, what do you...

01:13:58.584 --> 01:14:01.764
What's the nuts and bolts of that?

01:14:01.844 --> 01:14:04.644
It's it's it's because that's almost
like a trite thing to say, right?

01:14:05.034 --> 01:14:07.414
But how do you actually do that?

01:14:07.414 --> 01:14:07.804
What's I

01:14:07.804 --> 01:14:09.454
Jill Cohen: keep my feet on the ground.

01:14:09.454 --> 01:14:12.124
I feel supported by light.

01:14:12.174 --> 01:14:13.624
I I've the earth.

01:14:13.624 --> 01:14:17.624
It's it's like this You
know this round ball.

01:14:17.624 --> 01:14:21.694
It's like it's I get its support
being supported and held and I'm

01:14:21.704 --> 01:14:27.669
being guided when I quiet down and
listen There's constant guidance.

01:14:28.869 --> 01:14:32.149
When I don't know what to do, I
quiet down and I ask my heart and

01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:34.149
boom, the answer's right there.

01:14:34.249 --> 01:14:35.039
There's no mind.

01:14:35.049 --> 01:14:36.389
There's no figuring it out.

01:14:36.389 --> 01:14:40.529
It's like it's quieting
down and I'm listening.

01:14:41.069 --> 01:14:41.489
But how does

01:14:41.489 --> 01:14:42.539
Rupert Isaacson: that help
you love yourself more?

01:14:43.497 --> 01:14:49.947
Jill Cohen: It's the attention, it's the
focus, it brings me home into my heart

01:14:51.337 --> 01:14:59.317
it's, and being grateful, the gratitude
comes with that it's like, fuck, I could

01:14:59.317 --> 01:15:02.757
have incarnated in India, I could have
been a beggar on the street, I could have

01:15:02.767 --> 01:15:07.637
been a kid that's arm was broken so their
parents could beg to keep me alive I've

01:15:07.637 --> 01:15:11.577
seen that, you've seen that gratitude.

01:15:12.232 --> 01:15:18.592
It's like, I have air to breathe, I
have water to drink, I have family to

01:15:18.592 --> 01:15:22.082
love and if I didn't have family, I
could love my neighbor, I could love

01:15:22.312 --> 01:15:29.742
the creatures, the bugs, the birds, the,
it's the presence, and the listening,

01:15:29.742 --> 01:15:33.702
and the just, oh, keeping our eyes
open, and God, I had a dream the other

01:15:33.702 --> 01:15:37.772
night that I was running this beautiful
trail, and I was running with my eyes

01:15:37.772 --> 01:15:41.642
closed, and the trail was right there
in front of me, and I didn't even have

01:15:41.642 --> 01:15:44.002
to, I could see with my eyes closed.

01:15:45.832 --> 01:15:50.272
So, even to not have external
sight, we have internal sight.

01:15:51.242 --> 01:15:54.422
We have internal listening, even if
we're deaf and we can't, deaf and we

01:15:54.422 --> 01:15:56.832
can't hear, we have internal hearing.

01:15:57.422 --> 01:16:01.632
We have our senses that
bring us to our senses.

01:16:03.102 --> 01:16:03.832
And how can you not

01:16:03.832 --> 01:16:04.502
Rupert Isaacson: be grateful?

01:16:05.942 --> 01:16:11.287
I was going to ask if gratitude
is part of this because I find

01:16:11.647 --> 01:16:12.217
Jill Cohen: more and more.

01:16:12.267 --> 01:16:15.477
I think I thank every chicken
for every egg they lay.

01:16:15.527 --> 01:16:18.697
I cannot pick up a chicken, an
egg without saying thank you.

01:16:19.947 --> 01:16:22.017
It's every morning to wake up.

01:16:23.387 --> 01:16:23.927
Thank you.

01:16:24.577 --> 01:16:25.907
It's for every meal.

01:16:25.907 --> 01:16:29.947
It's like, and it wasn't that my
parents taught me to say thank you.

01:16:29.997 --> 01:16:31.217
It's just thank you.

01:16:31.582 --> 01:16:39.002
It's, it's with every breath that I can
inhale, it's like it's to have this human

01:16:39.002 --> 01:16:45.232
experience to be able to experience the
range, to be able to experience the depth

01:16:45.342 --> 01:16:50.902
of life and the connection and things
that feel like such roadblocks to be.

01:16:50.902 --> 01:16:54.782
I remember being in the arena with
you, and I remember just being just.

01:16:56.752 --> 01:17:01.002
It's so filled that if, if Sequoia wasn't
autistic, I would have never known you.

01:17:01.002 --> 01:17:04.962
I would have never had the joy
of exploring life and feeling

01:17:06.682 --> 01:17:10.812
the depth of connection and
the depth of aliveness and the

01:17:10.882 --> 01:17:15.672
it's like, how did I get so
lucky to have it all line up?

01:17:15.732 --> 01:17:22.142
It just feels like I'm just, it's like
the, it's like every step is just laid.

01:17:22.422 --> 01:17:24.122
And I think it is for everybody.

01:17:24.122 --> 01:17:25.482
It's just the noticing.

01:17:26.267 --> 01:17:31.267
It's just the willingness to quiet
down and notice and to get out of that

01:17:32.077 --> 01:17:41.707
constant dialogue That takes us from being
present being in the present moment so

01:17:41.867 --> 01:17:51.912
Rupert Isaacson: so it's Okay, so service
gratitude You continue to you're living

01:17:51.912 --> 01:17:53.102
in there on this land in these yurts.

01:17:53.182 --> 01:17:56.722
You continue to have this successful
business you your horses are there

01:17:57.922 --> 01:18:02.152
Tell us about Sequoia So when I
first met you this is now going back

01:18:03.992 --> 01:18:06.952
over over 10 years Sequoia is now 18

01:18:07.412 --> 01:18:07.872
Jill Cohen: years.

01:18:08.172 --> 01:18:08.642
Wow.

01:18:08.722 --> 01:18:08.932
He's

01:18:09.992 --> 01:18:11.162
Rupert Isaacson: 23 so

01:18:14.312 --> 01:18:18.812
Where's he at now and
Where's he on his way to?

01:18:21.052 --> 01:18:24.202
Jill Cohen: He is living at
the beginning of the pandemic.

01:18:24.212 --> 01:18:25.732
It was getting out of hand.

01:18:25.782 --> 01:18:29.012
Rachel and Leon, it's just, it's
amazing that they're still married.

01:18:29.012 --> 01:18:30.102
They're figuring it out.

01:18:30.372 --> 01:18:31.062
They're working it.

01:18:31.332 --> 01:18:35.192
They're actually doing great.

01:18:35.252 --> 01:18:38.382
And it's not the way they
thought it was going to look.

01:18:39.442 --> 01:18:42.672
Rachel needed a break, a
mental, emotional break.

01:18:42.852 --> 01:18:48.162
So she left for a few months and then the
pandemic hit and Sequoia was here with

01:18:48.162 --> 01:18:51.772
Leon and I and a caretaker here, there.

01:18:52.727 --> 01:18:59.687
And he got bigger and bigger, and
it was becoming unsafe for him, for

01:18:59.687 --> 01:19:06.347
the house everything was, it was
getting to be really safe, unsafe,

01:19:07.467 --> 01:19:11.567
so they called social services and.

01:19:11.962 --> 01:19:16.092
The only thing that they could find was
there was a rehab place down in Palm

01:19:16.172 --> 01:19:19.782
Springs that he could get into and we
thought, oh, this was going to be really

01:19:19.782 --> 01:19:27.102
great year long program and then the
pandemic hit everything got locked down.

01:19:27.112 --> 01:19:28.092
They freaked out.

01:19:28.102 --> 01:19:28.662
He ended up.

01:19:28.982 --> 01:19:32.292
Severely medicated because they
didn't know how to handle him.

01:19:32.872 --> 01:19:37.612
They didn't know how to be with COVID,
not even knowing what COVID was.

01:19:38.562 --> 01:19:40.922
We thought we'd be able to go
down and visit him every month.

01:19:40.922 --> 01:19:42.542
And after a month, it was locked down.

01:19:42.722 --> 01:19:44.342
And so he'd been down there.

01:19:44.352 --> 01:19:48.922
And in that they promised that they
would find a good living situation.

01:19:49.162 --> 01:19:52.912
For him, because it wasn't becoming,
it wasn't sustainable anymore.

01:19:52.922 --> 01:19:54.752
And I, I have some deep regrets.

01:19:54.752 --> 01:20:00.982
If not, I was doing my best with my
mom and working, but so he's in a group

01:20:00.982 --> 01:20:03.012
home about 40 minutes away from here.

01:20:03.812 --> 01:20:07.892
There's 3 other fellows about
his age and size, and they've got

01:20:07.902 --> 01:20:12.472
round the care help and they're
all very loving, but they're stuck.

01:20:12.532 --> 01:20:14.342
They're just, it's
like, everything's just.

01:20:14.922 --> 01:20:17.902
At a standstill and

01:20:17.962 --> 01:20:23.542
he's surviving, but not really
thriving and it's the biggest.

01:20:26.042 --> 01:20:34.032
And I've got my mom and I feel in
one sense stuck and he's safe and

01:20:34.032 --> 01:20:35.862
Rachel and Leon, we do see him.

01:20:36.102 --> 01:20:36.482
We do.

01:20:36.482 --> 01:20:37.532
They do FaceTime.

01:20:37.542 --> 01:20:43.392
They're in communication with his
caretakers and doctors and all that there.

01:20:43.392 --> 01:20:45.132
It's definitely really hands on.

01:20:45.142 --> 01:20:49.322
He eats a good, clean, organic
diet, any extra supplements.

01:20:49.332 --> 01:20:51.962
It's like they're really working with us.

01:20:52.172 --> 01:20:56.092
And yet he's not, I,
he's, he's not thriving.

01:21:00.277 --> 01:21:04.327
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think,
what do you think is going to be the

01:21:04.327 --> 01:21:12.487
way through that stuckness for him,
given that you've some experience

01:21:12.487 --> 01:21:13.267
in getting through stuckness?

01:21:15.007 --> 01:21:15.737
What does your gut say?

01:21:21.677 --> 01:21:23.537
Jill Cohen: Getting him out of
there, even if he has to go to

01:21:23.537 --> 01:21:28.287
Ireland to live somewhere kind
of more, you know, it's like, you

01:21:28.287 --> 01:21:30.617
know, Rachel Lance go so far away.

01:21:30.617 --> 01:21:33.237
I said, but he's so far away.

01:21:33.277 --> 01:21:35.147
Anyways find a place.

01:21:35.157 --> 01:21:40.297
It's like, God, if I had the resources
to set something up where it was safe,

01:21:40.297 --> 01:21:46.177
it's like, like an island where they
could be free and be in nature and.

01:21:46.797 --> 01:21:49.237
have the boundaries of
the water, he can swim.

01:21:50.177 --> 01:21:54.067
So that would be safe, but to
find a natural place for him to

01:21:54.067 --> 01:21:57.957
be able to, he's nature boy, he
loves, he's outside all the time.

01:21:58.297 --> 01:22:01.057
Rupert Isaacson: And in, in the
place where he's staying, they,

01:22:01.067 --> 01:22:02.697
they, they can, he can do that.

01:22:02.737 --> 01:22:03.617
He can live that way.

01:22:03.627 --> 01:22:03.977
Yeah.

01:22:04.007 --> 01:22:06.957
Jill Cohen: There's a backyard,
but it's like we wanted them to

01:22:06.957 --> 01:22:08.817
get a pool to get a trampoline.

01:22:08.817 --> 01:22:11.297
They won't get a trampoline
because it's dangerous.

01:22:11.337 --> 01:22:12.847
They can't have a pool because.

01:22:13.172 --> 01:22:14.122
It's dangerous.

01:22:14.202 --> 01:22:19.852
And it's just, so he's got a big fenced
in backyard and he could ride his bike a

01:22:19.852 --> 01:22:23.952
little bit and he can at least sit on the
earth, he can at least sit in the dirt.

01:22:24.942 --> 01:22:28.102
Rupert Isaacson: But he's not
able to go down to the beach, to

01:22:28.102 --> 01:22:31.252
the water, to the forest, to the,

01:22:33.612 --> 01:22:33.632
Jill Cohen: yeah.

01:22:33.632 --> 01:22:36.562
Because the caretakers have to be able
to keep up with them, and they're so

01:22:36.562 --> 01:22:43.212
underpaid, and so unfed, and yeah,
and and not really educated in what's

01:22:43.232 --> 01:22:44.032
Rupert Isaacson: possible.

01:22:44.232 --> 01:22:46.112
It's funny you said Ireland.

01:22:47.392 --> 01:22:51.402
There is a man called David
Doyle, who will not be a guest.

01:22:51.622 --> 01:22:53.792
He keeps refusing to be a guest on it.

01:22:54.257 --> 01:22:59.667
Show, but I work with David very
closely and David is as close as I

01:22:59.667 --> 01:23:03.387
have come to meeting the modern day
incarnation of the Wizard Merlin.

01:23:04.037 --> 01:23:10.607
And he has a severely autistic daughter
who also had a great response to horses

01:23:11.147 --> 01:23:18.827
and saw a demo of Horse Boy Method that
we did in 2012 in Limerick in Ireland.

01:23:19.387 --> 01:23:23.037
And he went and set up a
place called Li Skin at Farm.

01:23:24.362 --> 01:23:30.932
Which is exactly what you've
described and the young adults and

01:23:30.932 --> 01:23:36.242
adults whose families are maxed out.

01:23:37.362 --> 01:23:41.092
They, they cycle through, they spend a
few weeks there, and then they cycle back

01:23:41.092 --> 01:23:43.142
home, and then they cycle through again.

01:23:43.452 --> 01:23:50.162
It's, it's, it's a cyclical thing, and
then some of them go on out to something

01:23:50.162 --> 01:23:53.642
more independent, and some of them
don't, but they all thrive and then

01:23:53.642 --> 01:23:55.712
become working parts of the community.

01:23:56.372 --> 01:23:57.402
And he's now setting up

01:23:57.642 --> 01:24:04.692
And I'm going to put you in touch with
him because, and the reason I'm having

01:24:04.692 --> 01:24:07.852
this conversation with you here on this
podcast is that if you're listening

01:24:07.862 --> 01:24:10.612
listeners, this is how things happen.

01:24:11.732 --> 01:24:19.672
So unstuckness seems To my mind to happen
often through conversation that it's

01:24:19.672 --> 01:24:26.602
almost like you say to the okay universe
show me the you know You're all powerful.

01:24:27.242 --> 01:24:33.202
So all power right already, you know Um,
and then one throws that out there with a

01:24:33.202 --> 01:24:38.442
bit of gratitude and boom a conversation
comes up where the next potential

01:24:39.032 --> 01:24:40.942
Think coming and it's so funny to me.

01:24:40.952 --> 01:24:43.822
He said even Ireland like out of the blue.

01:24:43.952 --> 01:24:45.602
Why did you say, why just Ireland?

01:24:45.612 --> 01:24:48.852
You know, all the way in
California, there's a bazillion

01:24:48.852 --> 01:24:50.132
places in America, surely.

01:24:50.522 --> 01:24:53.672
However, it just so happens
that in Ireland there is a man

01:24:53.672 --> 01:24:55.152
who's setting up these places.

01:24:55.182 --> 01:24:59.852
And then there's, there's somebody
else who is just in the early stages

01:24:59.942 --> 01:25:04.892
of beginning to set up something rather
similar around people with schizophrenia.

01:25:05.492 --> 01:25:09.292
young adults who've fallen through
the cracks, particularly with narcotic

01:25:09.312 --> 01:25:13.922
induced schizophrenia, you know,
from the very strong forms of overly

01:25:13.932 --> 01:25:19.802
syntheticized marijuana that, you know,
have come in, in the last 10 or 20 years,

01:25:19.802 --> 01:25:22.172
you know, which is very different to
the marijuana that we used to smoke.

01:25:22.612 --> 01:25:24.572
It's now a completely different thing.

01:25:24.692 --> 01:25:28.922
It's, it's, you know, it's so full of THC,
it's almost like doing acid and it can,

01:25:29.222 --> 01:25:31.442
it can spark psychosis in some people.

01:25:31.812 --> 01:25:36.682
So the world has changed, but it, for
listeners, I know this, this podcast

01:25:36.692 --> 01:25:41.302
seems unusually informal in that like
scub came in, Rowan came in and we're

01:25:41.302 --> 01:25:46.372
talking with him and now we're riffing
in this way, but this is how it's done.

01:25:47.642 --> 01:25:52.712
Don't, wouldn't you agree, Jill, that,
that it's about reaching out and asking

01:25:52.712 --> 01:25:58.812
for help and having conversations
with people and not self martyring

01:25:58.812 --> 01:26:00.062
and doing this kind of stubborn.

01:26:00.122 --> 01:26:01.682
It's good to be stubborn in some ways.

01:26:02.817 --> 01:26:08.237
I'm going to get the job done, but not
in that I'm going to do it all myself.

01:26:09.232 --> 01:26:09.532
Jill Cohen: Right.

01:26:09.672 --> 01:26:11.222
It's dreaming ourselves

01:26:11.222 --> 01:26:13.802
Rupert Isaacson: awake,
dreaming ourselves awake.

01:26:14.722 --> 01:26:15.382
Go on.

01:26:15.442 --> 01:26:16.222
What do you mean by that?

01:26:16.262 --> 01:26:16.812
That

01:26:17.812 --> 01:26:21.682
Jill Cohen: it's, we had to dream
it to, to have conversations and

01:26:21.692 --> 01:26:23.582
dream and start to visualize.

01:26:23.632 --> 01:26:26.792
And then it's like, and then
it's like, we can see the vision.

01:26:27.022 --> 01:26:30.052
I mean, that's how I,
it's like the vision came.

01:26:30.052 --> 01:26:34.202
You need to find Mongolian healer
and boom, there's, you know,

01:26:34.582 --> 01:26:37.652
there's a horseplay which led it's.

01:26:38.447 --> 01:26:43.917
Dreaming ourselves awake into
actualization, dreaming ourselves, we

01:26:43.917 --> 01:26:46.847
have to dream it, we have to desire it.

01:26:46.867 --> 01:26:51.007
I mean, desire can lead us down so many
roads, but it's like the desire for

01:26:51.007 --> 01:26:57.137
Sequoia to be happy and fully expressed
and living, you know, fully in joy and,

01:26:57.897 --> 01:26:58.287
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

01:26:58.397 --> 01:27:01.477
It seems that we're, we're, we're
going to the territory here, which is

01:27:01.477 --> 01:27:03.307
good territory of law of attraction.

01:27:03.897 --> 01:27:07.427
And this, this idea of when you're
unhappy with something, you know,

01:27:08.477 --> 01:27:13.127
one's experience of being unhappy
with something launches Abraham Hicks

01:27:13.127 --> 01:27:15.447
people would say is a rocket of desire.

01:27:16.137 --> 01:27:19.097
And those rockets of desire
that seem to come out of

01:27:19.107 --> 01:27:22.657
frustration in fact set in motion.

01:27:23.397 --> 01:27:29.457
The solutions however, there is
a danger there of if we turn our

01:27:29.457 --> 01:27:32.277
attention to what we don't like and
what we don't want all the time, then

01:27:32.277 --> 01:27:33.677
we just kind of get more of that.

01:27:35.267 --> 01:27:43.447
But, but if we can identify in a
certain moment, I want this and then

01:27:43.467 --> 01:27:48.777
start to turn our attention to that
thing then manifestation can occur.

01:27:49.187 --> 01:27:51.437
There's something I
really like in the Bible.

01:27:51.972 --> 01:27:55.052
Even though I'm not religious there's
many great things in the Bible, and

01:27:55.822 --> 01:27:59.132
one of them is this business of turning
the other cheek in the New Testament.

01:27:59.252 --> 01:28:02.342
And when I was growing up, you
know, I thought, well, that's

01:28:02.342 --> 01:28:03.612
just being a pussy, you know.

01:28:04.142 --> 01:28:05.122
Why would you do that?

01:28:05.152 --> 01:28:06.972
You know, turn around and smack him.

01:28:07.682 --> 01:28:12.932
And then I realized through mentorship
and teaching that, not through my

01:28:12.932 --> 01:28:17.012
own realizations because I'm not
that intelligent, that What it

01:28:17.022 --> 01:28:18.382
meant was turning your attention.

01:28:19.502 --> 01:28:23.632
So literally your gaze if you turn your
gaze from this thing over here That's

01:28:23.772 --> 01:28:26.282
causing you discomfort and dis ease.

01:28:27.722 --> 01:28:29.542
You can turn your face.

01:28:30.122 --> 01:28:33.962
It's to turn your gaze You actually
have to move your head Yes You turn

01:28:33.962 --> 01:28:37.412
your cheek to look at something that
is working in your life or that you

01:28:37.412 --> 01:28:41.362
do desire or that is positive and you
Simply start going in that direction

01:28:41.362 --> 01:28:43.982
because that's now where you're looking
you go in the direction where you

01:28:43.982 --> 01:28:46.532
look That's how we ride our horses.

01:28:47.442 --> 01:28:48.672
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:28:48.712 --> 01:28:50.742
Body weight, you know,
the horse follows it.

01:28:51.622 --> 01:28:54.272
So, that was something I
wanted to ask you about.

01:28:54.382 --> 01:28:56.342
You seem to be good at manifesting.

01:28:57.292 --> 01:29:04.032
You manifested from an early age in
your teens, there you were, buying

01:29:04.032 --> 01:29:09.062
your first car and going around
the world from your pottery, and

01:29:09.072 --> 01:29:12.202
then started to use human clay.

01:29:13.187 --> 01:29:18.867
And it's done the same thing and you've
manifested what many people would look at

01:29:18.867 --> 01:29:24.697
it as a dream life when you had to move
your The internet froze so Jill had to

01:29:24.697 --> 01:29:30.427
move her laptop into her main house from
her treatment room and I got a lovely look

01:29:30.427 --> 01:29:34.387
at her property And as we were walking
through all those oaks I was thinking

01:29:34.747 --> 01:29:39.177
that's not bad for someone who's Made
their living through body work as a, as a

01:29:39.177 --> 01:29:41.737
hippie to buy a piece of land like that.

01:29:41.847 --> 01:29:42.877
That's, that's not too shabby.

01:29:42.877 --> 01:29:43.677
I make good money.

01:29:44.517 --> 01:29:44.757
Yeah.

01:29:44.757 --> 01:29:45.027
Yeah.

01:29:45.057 --> 01:29:46.637
But, but, you know, a lot of people.

01:29:46.907 --> 01:29:48.817
Jill Cohen: And I work three
and a half hours a day.

01:29:49.247 --> 01:29:49.607
Wow.

01:29:49.847 --> 01:29:50.837
Take care of my mom.

01:29:50.917 --> 01:29:51.277
And.

01:29:52.417 --> 01:29:52.667
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

01:29:52.667 --> 01:29:55.227
So, so, so how does one manifest that?

01:29:56.462 --> 01:29:57.302
Because you know

01:29:58.782 --> 01:29:58.912
Jill Cohen: desire

01:29:58.912 --> 01:30:00.932
Rupert Isaacson: desire go on talk to us

01:30:00.932 --> 01:30:03.692
Jill Cohen: more about that So it's
like I think it's like yeah from a

01:30:03.692 --> 01:30:07.222
spiritual point of view It's like
that's what brings us, you know into

01:30:07.222 --> 01:30:13.852
another hurt a human birth is our own
our unrealized Desires, so it's like

01:30:13.852 --> 01:30:20.262
we just keep those desires those, you
know, just keep keep moving it That's

01:30:20.262 --> 01:30:25.222
how we get it through desire through
wanting it and then action How does

01:30:25.222 --> 01:30:30.082
Rupert Isaacson: one, how does one
desire long term things that have

01:30:30.082 --> 01:30:34.462
not manifested without falling
into a trap of frustration, and

01:30:34.462 --> 01:30:38.032
then putting one's attention on
what one therefore doesn't have?

01:30:38.482 --> 01:30:42.612
How does one dance the dance
between the frustration of desires

01:30:42.632 --> 01:30:45.582
that take time to fulfill, to be
fulfilled, years, decades even,

01:30:45.992 --> 01:30:49.562
without falling into that frustration
trap where things can't manifest?

01:30:51.892 --> 01:30:52.342
Hmm.

01:30:53.452 --> 01:30:53.842
What's the secret?

01:30:53.842 --> 01:30:54.292
What's the key?

01:30:54.292 --> 01:30:54.512
What's the key?

01:30:56.722 --> 01:30:57.052
There's

01:30:59.752 --> 01:31:02.072
Jill Cohen: staying focused
to where you want to go.

01:31:02.802 --> 01:31:04.262
Sometimes it takes time.

01:31:05.892 --> 01:31:09.182
Sometimes you have to pause when
you don't know what to do next.

01:31:09.202 --> 01:31:10.662
And you wait and you listen.

01:31:10.702 --> 01:31:15.092
And you, you, like you say, you
have the conversations, you have the

01:31:15.092 --> 01:31:19.322
conversations and out of the conversation
that we don't have to do it all alone.

01:31:19.822 --> 01:31:20.312
I mean,

01:31:22.742 --> 01:31:24.572
Rupert Isaacson: You weren't
always able to work three

01:31:24.572 --> 01:31:26.832
hours a day to make good money.

01:31:27.722 --> 01:31:29.822
How does one go from.

01:31:30.802 --> 01:31:35.552
having to work 15 hours a day to
working three hours a day so that

01:31:35.562 --> 01:31:37.872
you can make good money and still
look after your mom with dementia?

01:31:38.912 --> 01:31:42.792
Jill Cohen: You raise your
rates raise my rates in time.

01:31:43.062 --> 01:31:46.482
I mean, I've got a way, I've
got a pretty good waiting list.

01:31:46.712 --> 01:31:49.632
I'm booked out about six weeks and
I've got a pretty good waiting list.

01:31:49.632 --> 01:31:52.022
So if anybody changes, I'm just, Oh, cool.

01:31:52.052 --> 01:31:54.012
Then somebody else is
going to be able to get in.

01:31:54.442 --> 01:31:56.222
I don't stress about scarcity.

01:31:56.592 --> 01:31:59.252
I focus on service.

01:32:00.017 --> 01:32:02.077
There are people that are in
pain that want to get out.

01:32:02.197 --> 01:32:03.007
You can't come.

01:32:03.067 --> 01:32:03.497
Okay.

01:32:03.517 --> 01:32:05.097
Somebody else does want to come.

01:32:05.427 --> 01:32:10.827
So it's, it's being, yeah, it's, it's like
that pathway of, of service and it just

01:32:14.157 --> 01:32:15.777
life shows up.

01:32:15.777 --> 01:32:19.287
It's like the, the, the, the Z's part, but

01:32:19.307 --> 01:32:20.657
Rupert Isaacson: you
say, raise your rates.

01:32:20.657 --> 01:32:21.677
Now that's an interesting one.

01:32:21.917 --> 01:32:23.817
So a lot of us undervalue ourselves

01:32:24.497 --> 01:32:25.837
Jill Cohen: and I think absolutely.

01:32:26.177 --> 01:32:26.787
And I still

01:32:26.787 --> 01:32:27.197
Rupert Isaacson: do.

01:32:27.577 --> 01:32:27.857
Right.

01:32:27.867 --> 01:32:28.087
Yeah.

01:32:28.607 --> 01:32:31.857
And you know, we might go through
some years of imposter syndrome.

01:32:32.432 --> 01:32:35.092
Before we realized actually no,
we're quite good at our shtick.

01:32:35.112 --> 01:32:37.222
We've now been in it for long enough
to know that we're good enough.

01:32:37.572 --> 01:32:42.022
However, one thing I would say about
you, it's one thing to glibly say raise

01:32:42.022 --> 01:32:48.042
your rates, but of course you can't raise
your rates and have it work unless people

01:32:48.052 --> 01:32:49.962
feel that you're worth those rates.

01:32:50.262 --> 01:32:54.102
And presumably you're worth
those rates because this is back

01:32:54.102 --> 01:32:55.602
to self actualization again.

01:32:56.122 --> 01:32:57.732
Jill Cohen: Because I
do my own inner work.

01:32:57.802 --> 01:33:01.582
I can't take people further than
I've been so I do my own work.

01:33:01.602 --> 01:33:04.682
If I'm going to help somebody that's
got emotional blocks or that's what I

01:33:04.682 --> 01:33:09.132
do is a lot of emotional tracing work
and inner child work and even past life

01:33:09.132 --> 01:33:15.972
work and ancestral work and it's like
it unless I go in and I do my own work.

01:33:15.972 --> 01:33:17.672
I mean, I do plant medicine journeys.

01:33:17.672 --> 01:33:19.782
I go in and I, I, I face my.

01:33:20.127 --> 01:33:23.327
Myself and it's like if I can
do that, then I can guide others

01:33:23.327 --> 01:33:28.517
to go in and support them and
facing what their roadblocks are.

01:33:29.037 --> 01:33:32.317
So you can't take people further
than you've been yourself.

01:33:32.617 --> 01:33:37.787
I, I know that I get frustrated and
I get stuck and I go, okay, Jill, you

01:33:37.787 --> 01:33:39.587
need to go deeper when it gets hard.

01:33:39.587 --> 01:33:40.267
Go deeper.

01:33:40.547 --> 01:33:41.117
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

01:33:41.117 --> 01:33:41.487
Right.

01:33:41.487 --> 01:33:43.187
So it's really about upskilling, isn't it?

01:33:43.217 --> 01:33:48.287
So, I mean, whether those upskills are
spiritual or whether they're learning

01:33:48.347 --> 01:33:50.357
a skill like a computer program.

01:33:50.867 --> 01:33:55.157
Or another way of riding a horse, or
a professional skill of some sort.

01:33:55.517 --> 01:33:57.747
Or all of the above, which
it seems that you do.

01:33:57.777 --> 01:33:59.657
It seems that this
forever student thing...

01:34:00.972 --> 01:34:01.602
Humility

01:34:02.342 --> 01:34:04.822
Jill Cohen: of being a beginner humility.

01:34:04.822 --> 01:34:06.902
It's like, oh, maybe I
don't know everything.

01:34:07.042 --> 01:34:08.172
Maybe I need to go learn.

01:34:08.172 --> 01:34:11.242
Maybe I need to go deepen my skills.

01:34:11.242 --> 01:34:13.172
It's yeah, the humility that I don't know.

01:34:13.662 --> 01:34:16.912
And and then, and I come back,
I've been practicing 48 years

01:34:16.912 --> 01:34:18.142
and I work on my treatment room.

01:34:18.142 --> 01:34:19.612
I still don't know what
the fuck I'm doing.

01:34:19.612 --> 01:34:24.432
And I just have to trust and show
up and listen and and the way we'll.

01:34:24.717 --> 01:34:28.137
The way we'll show the way the way
we'll, you know, I got to get in the

01:34:28.137 --> 01:34:33.267
canoe and I can't dance around it.

01:34:33.927 --> 01:34:35.147
You got to do your work.

01:34:36.207 --> 01:34:41.747
Rupert Isaacson: Something came into my
mind while you were talking about clay and

01:34:41.747 --> 01:34:50.307
then human clay, which goes to the heart
of the Ashkenazi Jewish story, which some

01:34:50.307 --> 01:34:52.207
listeners may know is a magical story.

01:34:52.872 --> 01:34:55.742
If you don't, let me just
talk you through it quickly.

01:34:55.762 --> 01:35:00.522
So, Ashkenazi Judaism, the east,
the Jews of Eastern Europe, the

01:35:00.522 --> 01:35:05.502
fiddler on the roof Jews who then
ended up in New York and South

01:35:05.502 --> 01:35:07.682
Africa, which is my family and so on.

01:35:07.802 --> 01:35:09.912
They were actually
originally not from there.

01:35:09.912 --> 01:35:14.152
They were originally
from Spain and Portugal.

01:35:14.772 --> 01:35:21.957
And yeah, and they were kicked out with,
If they got out alive at the end of the

01:35:21.957 --> 01:35:27.967
15th century, when the final reconquest
of Spain happened and Spain became

01:35:28.247 --> 01:35:32.787
under Ferdinand of Isabella, who then
sent people off to the new world, who

01:35:32.817 --> 01:35:37.637
conquered the last Moorish kingdom of
Granada and made Spain Christian again.

01:35:37.957 --> 01:35:39.527
And basically if you didn't convert.

01:35:40.397 --> 01:35:43.387
If you were Jewish, it had been a,
it had been a haven for Judaism and

01:35:43.387 --> 01:35:45.187
a very enlightened form of Judaism.

01:35:45.727 --> 01:35:49.997
In fact, an alchemical form of Judaism,
in fact, a magical practice form of

01:35:49.997 --> 01:35:54.507
Judaism called Kabbalah and which
came out of the middle ages there

01:35:54.567 --> 01:35:59.197
mostly in Spain with a mixture with
Islam and, and, and Sufism and so on.

01:35:59.197 --> 01:36:03.037
And of course this was anathema and
the Spanish inquisition was formed

01:36:03.937 --> 01:36:06.837
under Ferdinand and Isabella and
went after these people massively.

01:36:06.847 --> 01:36:08.797
And if you didn't convert, you were.

01:36:09.152 --> 01:36:13.992
Killed nastily and even if you did convert
a lot of times you were killed nastily

01:36:14.372 --> 01:36:19.322
And so a lot of them went east into the
Ottoman Empire, which was a safe haven

01:36:20.222 --> 01:36:24.272
Istanbul's now, you know Constantinople
Byzantium and then from there a lot of

01:36:24.272 --> 01:36:30.382
them up into Up the Black Sea and then
settling in the areas north of there

01:36:30.382 --> 01:36:37.412
was now Lithuania and Ukraine and so on
yeah, and One of the stories that comes

01:36:37.492 --> 01:36:45.752
out of that magical Kabbalistic form
of Judaism, which is a mystic form of

01:36:45.752 --> 01:36:50.062
Judaism, about trying to, the world being
in disharmony and trying to bring it back

01:36:50.062 --> 01:36:54.352
to harmony through magical use of sacred
geometry and numbers and all these sorts

01:36:54.362 --> 01:36:58.042
of things was the Legend of the Golem.

01:36:59.722 --> 01:37:05.277
And the Legend of the Golem is it, some
people say it happened in Vilnius in

01:37:05.327 --> 01:37:09.387
Lithuania and some people say it happened
in Prague and some people say it happened

01:37:09.397 --> 01:37:12.567
here and some people say it seems to be
Part of a general consciousness that there

01:37:12.567 --> 01:37:19.077
was a the rabbi low was his name who was
so in tune with the kabbalah that he could

01:37:19.077 --> 01:37:25.787
speak to angels and that when they were
going to Attack the ghetto the christians

01:37:25.787 --> 01:37:29.797
were going to attack the ghetto At the
behest of the king because of course the

01:37:29.797 --> 01:37:32.697
jews had been lending the king money and
the king didn't want to pay it Back so

01:37:32.697 --> 01:37:33.897
it's much easier to just go kill them all.

01:37:35.347 --> 01:37:43.927
The rabbi low works through the Kabbalah
and takes clay and creates a life in

01:37:43.927 --> 01:37:52.067
clay, a golem, this giant made of clay,
who lumbers off into the night and saves

01:37:52.067 --> 01:37:56.817
the day basically pushes back the torch
bearing pitchfork waving hordes who are

01:37:56.817 --> 01:38:01.417
going to come and rape, rape and kill
everybody in the, in the, in the ghetto.

01:38:01.957 --> 01:38:06.457
The reason the word ghetto comes from
the Jewish thing, the name of the,

01:38:06.657 --> 01:38:08.137
the ghetto is the area of Venice.

01:38:08.592 --> 01:38:12.132
where the Jews lived that and it's
now come to mean, and it had a

01:38:12.132 --> 01:38:15.612
wall around it, like as many Jewish
areas did in European cities.

01:38:16.062 --> 01:38:20.552
And now that's come to be a ubiquitous
term for any neighborhood that is

01:38:21.092 --> 01:38:25.482
underserved and enclosed in some way,
but it, the ghetto is still there.

01:38:25.652 --> 01:38:27.932
It's called the ghetto in in Venice.

01:38:29.052 --> 01:38:30.062
That's where it comes from.

01:38:30.142 --> 01:38:32.932
And so it's interesting to me.

01:38:34.217 --> 01:38:36.267
That there you are working in human clay.

01:38:36.267 --> 01:38:38.157
You're coming out of
these Ashkenazi roots.

01:38:38.157 --> 01:38:42.467
You're manifesting Suffering
suffering and joy in the face of

01:38:42.467 --> 01:38:43.907
suffering that's fiddler on the roof.

01:38:43.907 --> 01:38:47.487
That's the Ashkenazi Jewish
experience That's the that's why

01:38:47.487 --> 01:38:52.657
we cry when we see that film Yeah
spirit the indomitable human spirit.

01:38:53.567 --> 01:38:56.557
Yeah, is that not self actualization

01:38:57.457 --> 01:39:02.662
Jill Cohen: that absolutely
is Yeah, absolutely.

01:39:02.962 --> 01:39:08.612
That's what that human spirit for
life and for joy and our, I mean,

01:39:09.832 --> 01:39:15.442
birthright of what it is to be human,
to be joyous, dance and celebrate.

01:39:16.542 --> 01:39:19.622
And that we have love and we
have the senses to experience

01:39:20.122 --> 01:39:23.222
each other and commune and

01:39:26.382 --> 01:39:33.252
touch and affect and feed
and toast and celebrate

01:39:33.252 --> 01:39:34.842
Rupert Isaacson: each other, laugh,

01:39:35.642 --> 01:39:37.542
Jill Cohen: yeah, ecstatic dance.

01:39:37.542 --> 01:39:42.692
I mean, the Sufis were, you know,
they spun to find that ecstatic joy.

01:39:43.122 --> 01:39:48.772
We danced the Hora, you know,
the Greek dance on tables.

01:39:49.107 --> 01:39:49.427
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:39:50.157 --> 01:39:51.727
Dance is a huge thing.

01:39:51.807 --> 01:39:53.627
Jill Cohen: And music, music connects us.

01:39:54.367 --> 01:39:55.727
Music connects us.

01:39:57.167 --> 01:39:57.617
Yeah.

01:39:57.727 --> 01:40:00.937
That's one thing Sequoia sang.

01:40:00.997 --> 01:40:02.257
We always knew where he was.

01:40:02.257 --> 01:40:05.357
He was singing and he would,
it was like his little voice.

01:40:05.541 --> 01:40:06.801
Sequoia and dancing.

01:40:06.801 --> 01:40:12.761
I mean, he would listen to a Katy Perry
song once on YouTube and he knew every

01:40:12.771 --> 01:40:15.091
word and he would just belt it out.

01:40:15.101 --> 01:40:19.831
And that's, that was, that's when he's
the most joyous is when he's singing.

01:40:20.011 --> 01:40:21.381
He loves music.

01:40:21.791 --> 01:40:22.451
Loves music.

01:40:23.261 --> 01:40:28.441
I've got the cutest videos and Rachel
dancing and yeah, singing, whether it's

01:40:28.441 --> 01:40:35.311
on top of old Smokey or, you know, Katy
Perry songs, or Is it important to dance?

01:40:36.081 --> 01:40:37.921
Rupert Isaacson: Is it important
to dance around your kitchen?

01:40:39.551 --> 01:40:41.141
Jill Cohen: It's so important to dance.

01:40:41.301 --> 01:40:43.531
Oh my, that's what I do with
mom when she gets in it.

01:40:43.581 --> 01:40:45.361
I turn, I turn music on.

01:40:45.361 --> 01:40:47.901
She loves music and we just dance.

01:40:48.586 --> 01:40:50.836
We dance, we dance.

01:40:52.846 --> 01:40:57.486
Dancing's awesome because that's
our, in tribal, that's what the dance

01:40:57.516 --> 01:40:59.906
we, there's dance, there's singing.

01:41:00.336 --> 01:41:00.686
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

01:41:01.016 --> 01:41:04.466
It's that, that the dancing
rituals are, are what are healing.

01:41:05.026 --> 01:41:05.366
Yeah, there's,

01:41:05.476 --> 01:41:08.956
Jill Cohen: there's no place like moves
our body, moves ourselves, produces the

01:41:09.436 --> 01:41:14.196
oxys and they, you know, it's Keeping
our joy, moving it through our spines

01:41:14.196 --> 01:41:21.716
and feeling alive feeling, even when
I cry, even when I'm sad, I'm grateful

01:41:21.716 --> 01:41:27.206
that I can feel, that I can feel that
deep I love to sob, to be moved to

01:41:27.206 --> 01:41:32.846
sobbing, to, to, to just be so deeply
moved, whether it be, you know, in deep

01:41:32.856 --> 01:41:38.736
sadness or grief or, or, or sobbing
and joy, I mean, it's, it's, it kind

01:41:38.736 --> 01:41:40.701
of meets in that place that it's, yeah.

01:41:41.981 --> 01:41:43.111
Indistinguishable.

01:41:43.731 --> 01:41:46.081
And that's when we feel our aliveness.

01:41:47.071 --> 01:41:49.521
Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, there's a,
there's, there's a neuroscience to that,

01:41:49.561 --> 01:41:54.741
of course, which is that hip rocking
movement, you know, dancing, sex any

01:41:54.881 --> 01:41:57.681
any empathetic touch brings oxytocin.

01:41:57.721 --> 01:42:00.271
Oxytocin is not just feel good hormone.

01:42:00.471 --> 01:42:01.771
It's communication hormone.

01:42:01.791 --> 01:42:02.981
It's strategy hormone.

01:42:03.231 --> 01:42:06.981
It's where you begin to strategize with
the other people in your group about

01:42:07.161 --> 01:42:09.611
how do we get out of this dilemma.

01:42:11.226 --> 01:42:17.696
How do we figure out the next few years
blah blah blah without oxytocin our brains

01:42:17.696 --> 01:42:22.236
can't do that Steratonin the same thing
produced in the gut through the movement

01:42:24.596 --> 01:42:29.906
The endorphins that come you talk about
sobbing so any Sobbing a good cry brings

01:42:29.906 --> 01:42:33.886
endorphins a good meal brings endorphins
lots of hard exercise brings endorphins

01:42:33.886 --> 01:42:38.761
another Happiness hormone and therefore
dopamine where you figure it out The

01:42:38.761 --> 01:42:41.871
figuring out the figuring out because
all of this you talked about being moved

01:42:43.001 --> 01:42:47.541
to do all of these things you have to
move would you say that when you feel

01:42:47.551 --> 01:42:49.601
stuck and you talked about going deeper?

01:42:50.721 --> 01:42:52.461
In stuckness there you are with sequoia.

01:42:52.471 --> 01:42:56.501
There you are with your mother's cancer
There you are with your mother's dementia

01:42:56.861 --> 01:43:01.321
Is it the actual physical movement that
leads to the emotional movement that leads

01:43:01.321 --> 01:43:02.801
to the movement where you can manifest?

01:43:03.326 --> 01:43:03.936
Your way through.

01:43:03.986 --> 01:43:04.336
Yeah,

01:43:04.466 --> 01:43:07.736
Jill Cohen: sometimes I'll just sit on
my ball and I'll bounce or I'll stand

01:43:07.746 --> 01:43:14.556
and just Jiggle everything getting all my
cells going and everything just bouncing

01:43:14.556 --> 01:43:18.746
and moving and livening and awakening
And every little cell of my body.

01:43:18.756 --> 01:43:23.286
It's happy And you know, it's it's just
and in in and in all the cells is all

01:43:23.296 --> 01:43:29.986
the information Oh my god ourselves
every cell holds the information of

01:43:30.216 --> 01:43:32.536
everything in our body, every function.

01:43:32.546 --> 01:43:35.866
And it's like just waking all those
cells up, getting them going and

01:43:35.906 --> 01:43:43.016
community and connection, connection,
feeling the connection, feeling

01:43:43.086 --> 01:43:47.166
Rupert Isaacson: how, when you're, when
you're isolated, I mean, you're there

01:43:48.246 --> 01:43:50.196
somewhat in isolation in a rural property.

01:43:50.196 --> 01:43:52.476
It's very beautiful, but
it's somewhat in isolation.

01:43:53.046 --> 01:43:58.876
A lot of people end up isolated because
they have the autistic kid that's going

01:43:58.876 --> 01:44:03.196
to kick off in the supermarket so they
don't want to go out, or they're just so

01:44:04.516 --> 01:44:09.336
snowed under, overwhelmed with the demands
at home that go, how do you keep that

01:44:09.336 --> 01:44:12.346
connection going when you're in isolation?

01:44:14.476 --> 01:44:16.666
Jill Cohen: There's just,
I mean, look in the dirt.

01:44:16.696 --> 01:44:17.556
There's bugs.

01:44:17.866 --> 01:44:19.486
That's like, we're never alone.

01:44:19.496 --> 01:44:21.686
We think, you know, I
went through one time.

01:44:21.686 --> 01:44:24.866
I remember it was like, long time
ago, beginning of my journey.

01:44:24.866 --> 01:44:27.826
I think I was in Sedona and I
thought, oh, I feel so alone.

01:44:27.826 --> 01:44:30.536
And it was like, I went out on
the rocks and I took my drum and I

01:44:30.536 --> 01:44:33.836
started drumming and it was like,
I looked down and there's bugs down

01:44:33.836 --> 01:44:35.416
there and there's clouds up there.

01:44:35.416 --> 01:44:39.066
And it's like, it's like, it's
the illusion of aloneness.

01:44:39.986 --> 01:44:41.776
It's the illusion of seclusion.

01:44:41.776 --> 01:44:45.326
It's the illusion of it's
it's like, try to be alone.

01:44:45.516 --> 01:44:46.676
You can't be alone.

01:44:46.786 --> 01:44:48.856
There's like, go try to be alone.

01:44:48.866 --> 01:44:49.906
You can't be alone.

01:44:49.916 --> 01:44:54.116
There's, there's, there's life everywhere.

01:44:54.116 --> 01:44:57.406
We're sitting on a planet that
is connected to everything.

01:44:57.406 --> 01:45:00.306
And through the mycelium,
we're totally connected.

01:45:00.306 --> 01:45:03.716
We're not, we, every, all
the waters flow together.

01:45:03.716 --> 01:45:06.066
It's like, we're never, we can't be alone.

01:45:06.106 --> 01:45:07.866
Even if we want to be
alone, we can't be alone.

01:45:07.866 --> 01:45:09.256
And it's the illusion of aloneness.

01:45:09.706 --> 01:45:10.566
It's the illusion of

01:45:10.576 --> 01:45:11.086
Rupert Isaacson: the aloneness.

01:45:11.616 --> 01:45:13.786
Is it allowing yourself
to go trans species?

01:45:15.276 --> 01:45:15.426
Yeah,

01:45:16.466 --> 01:45:16.646
Jill Cohen: yeah.

01:45:17.246 --> 01:45:22.156
Just have to quiet down and be still
and present and you, you start to feel

01:45:22.156 --> 01:45:28.826
the connections and the communication
and you can hear you know, your

01:45:28.826 --> 01:45:34.086
horses talking and the dogs and the
birds and the crows and it's like...

01:45:34.616 --> 01:45:39.966
It's yeah, well, if we can quiet
down enough to hear, there's,

01:45:40.086 --> 01:45:41.976
it's constant communication.

01:45:41.976 --> 01:45:43.006
It's communing.

01:45:44.046 --> 01:45:45.626
Rupert Isaacson: So movement, movement.

01:45:47.306 --> 01:45:51.176
But it sounds also like nature,
therefore, the trans species thing.

01:45:51.786 --> 01:45:53.746
The connection to the, to the great web.

01:45:54.426 --> 01:45:59.116
So I guess if you're sitting
in a room, not moving, looking

01:45:59.116 --> 01:46:01.286
at a computer screen, and...

01:46:01.881 --> 01:46:08.441
Not going outside into It's not
Okay, so those two things would you

01:46:08.441 --> 01:46:13.091
Jill Cohen: say go outside
sit on the ground go outside

01:46:13.311 --> 01:46:15.961
look at the clouds Go outside.

01:46:16.131 --> 01:46:18.341
You've got to be able to
find a leaf or something.

01:46:18.441 --> 01:46:24.971
There's birds or There's
yeah, get outside, get your

01:46:24.971 --> 01:46:26.521
feet dirty, touch the earth.

01:46:28.031 --> 01:46:31.321
Rupert Isaacson: Now you're gonna, we're
gonna have some listeners who might feel,

01:46:33.061 --> 01:46:39.041
I hate going outside, going outside is
mosquitoes, going outside is getting dirty

01:46:39.041 --> 01:46:41.031
and gritty, going outside is, you know.

01:46:42.251 --> 01:46:44.511
That just sounds like a
bunch of hippie BS to me.

01:46:45.791 --> 01:46:47.211
What's your answer to that?

01:46:47.691 --> 01:46:48.051
Jill Cohen: Well, then stay stuck.

01:46:48.051 --> 01:46:48.901
Stay stuck, Vin.

01:46:49.141 --> 01:46:49.671
Go for it.

01:46:51.901 --> 01:46:52.461
It's your choice.

01:46:53.631 --> 01:46:54.261
There's a choice.

01:46:54.631 --> 01:46:55.361
Go get dirty.

01:46:55.701 --> 01:46:56.681
See what it feels like to be dirty.

01:46:56.691 --> 01:46:59.161
You may fall in love
with the dirt, you know?

01:46:59.461 --> 01:47:00.861
You may fall in love with a bug.

01:47:01.941 --> 01:47:05.081
Rupert Isaacson: It seems to me very
much that in the course of the work

01:47:05.111 --> 01:47:11.941
that I do, where one's dealing with
depression or trauma or something like

01:47:11.941 --> 01:47:15.211
that, and that what it often seems
to come down to for me is sadness.

01:47:16.031 --> 01:47:17.911
That there's a profound sadness.

01:47:18.831 --> 01:47:24.331
Running through our culture, which
the more I look at it seems to

01:47:24.331 --> 01:47:30.421
come from a disassociation with
the environment that we are pre

01:47:30.421 --> 01:47:32.781
programmed as an organism to be in.

01:47:33.081 --> 01:47:39.101
If you, if you put a goldfish in a
bowl, it's going to be a bit depressed.

01:47:39.101 --> 01:47:42.351
If you, if it's swimming out there
in the river, okay, predator might

01:47:42.351 --> 01:47:45.941
get it, but nonetheless, it's
again, self actualized or whatever.

01:47:46.471 --> 01:47:47.441
But we're like zoo animals.

01:47:48.451 --> 01:47:50.761
And even zoos have evolved.

01:47:50.761 --> 01:47:51.021
Conditioned.

01:47:51.621 --> 01:47:52.901
Well, and they've evolved now.

01:47:52.901 --> 01:47:55.691
They've got great habitats and, you
know, they've learned from the past

01:47:55.691 --> 01:48:01.651
and now can create happiness for
animals and rebreed endangered species

01:48:01.651 --> 01:48:02.841
that they put back in the wild.

01:48:03.201 --> 01:48:05.246
But we're not putting ourselves
back in the wild, are we?

01:48:07.146 --> 01:48:08.376
Jill Cohen: It's the old messaging.

01:48:08.376 --> 01:48:10.536
It's like somebody said,
Oh, don't get dirty.

01:48:10.546 --> 01:48:11.436
You'll get sick.

01:48:11.516 --> 01:48:13.956
There's germs or it's the programming.

01:48:13.956 --> 01:48:18.256
It's like, you know, or don't do
that because you've got to do this.

01:48:18.456 --> 01:48:25.766
And it's the programming that we're
spoon fed that comes down from the

01:48:25.766 --> 01:48:27.656
grandmas and the grandmas and grandmas.

01:48:27.696 --> 01:48:29.416
It's like, who said that?

01:48:29.906 --> 01:48:34.116
It's like, it's like, unsay
it, say something else,

01:48:34.176 --> 01:48:35.356
choose something different.

01:48:36.306 --> 01:48:37.206
Rupert Isaacson: It's really interesting.

01:48:37.206 --> 01:48:41.936
Yesterday I was, I live in Germany,
as some listeners know, and we drove

01:48:42.116 --> 01:48:49.606
north to a family reunion in a very
rural area of Hessen, where we live.

01:48:49.606 --> 01:48:53.596
And Hessen is the area where the
Brothers Grimm stories mostly come from.

01:48:54.036 --> 01:48:55.306
The north part of Hessen.

01:48:55.616 --> 01:48:56.526
It's a lot of forest.

01:48:57.126 --> 01:48:58.636
And Little Red Riding Hood.

01:48:59.216 --> 01:49:00.696
Comes from scary stories.

01:49:01.046 --> 01:49:05.576
They were scary stories little red
riding hood comes from a the area around

01:49:05.576 --> 01:49:10.426
a town called asphalt which is a very
beautiful little gothic town still today

01:49:11.106 --> 01:49:15.366
and You think of it as this girl who?

01:49:15.376 --> 01:49:20.566
Was you know a bit of a free spirit going
through the woods and of course, it's the

01:49:20.566 --> 01:49:24.206
big bad wolf Yeah, and it's it's basically
a story about don't don't be a free

01:49:24.206 --> 01:49:31.856
spirit the little red riding hood I didn't
realize until yesterday what the, the,

01:49:31.866 --> 01:49:33.976
it, it's a mistranslation from the German.

01:49:33.976 --> 01:49:34.456
It's a Rosenkappchen.

01:49:34.966 --> 01:49:37.076
It's a little red riding,
it's a little red cap.

01:49:37.616 --> 01:49:41.756
And these little caps that they wore,
that they made the girls wear 200

01:49:41.756 --> 01:49:51.776
years ago was like this little square
red thing fixed on the top of the head

01:49:52.276 --> 01:49:54.276
with a, it's like, a bit like a hijab.

01:49:55.916 --> 01:50:00.296
with, with a, with, with, with
all the hair tied rigidly back

01:50:00.296 --> 01:50:03.716
and in this top knot on the,
with, with this sort of red thing.

01:50:04.166 --> 01:50:08.556
And then a hijab basically
around the jaws, around the face,

01:50:08.946 --> 01:50:10.116
basically keeping the jaw shut.

01:50:10.116 --> 01:50:11.236
So you didn't talk too much.

01:50:12.276 --> 01:50:13.926
Wound tight of black.

01:50:15.326 --> 01:50:21.026
Material and the women had to walk around
like this for their entire life from

01:50:21.026 --> 01:50:22.486
being a little girl Keep their mouth shut.

01:50:22.886 --> 01:50:25.416
Keep their mouth shut and you
know, don't go self expressed.

01:50:25.896 --> 01:50:29.546
So weirdly you think you think
of okay You know 200 years ago.

01:50:29.836 --> 01:50:30.876
It was so much better.

01:50:30.886 --> 01:50:36.096
You know, the world was more
natural And then you have these

01:50:36.106 --> 01:50:39.046
stories about don't go touch nature.

01:50:39.086 --> 01:50:39.986
That's the big bad wolf.

01:50:40.026 --> 01:50:45.196
Don't go walk through the forest
by yourself and Toe the line.

01:50:45.196 --> 01:50:45.726
Germs.

01:50:46.346 --> 01:50:46.706
Germs.

01:50:46.706 --> 01:50:46.916
Yeah.

01:50:46.916 --> 01:50:46.946
And

01:50:46.946 --> 01:50:48.326
Jill Cohen: everybody's
got stomach problems.

01:50:50.006 --> 01:50:50.836
Rupert Isaacson: From not enough germs.

01:50:50.836 --> 01:50:51.146
Yeah.

01:50:51.566 --> 01:50:52.676
From not enough germs.

01:50:52.896 --> 01:50:55.626
And the stomach problems become brain
problems because brain health and

01:50:55.636 --> 01:50:58.316
gut health are connected obviously.

01:50:58.876 --> 01:50:59.446
Yeah.

01:50:59.686 --> 01:51:01.636
So when people are stuck, Jill,

01:51:05.526 --> 01:51:09.346
and they're saying, they
say, I'm in Jill's situation.

01:51:09.416 --> 01:51:12.106
I'm stuck looking after a sick relative.

01:51:12.106 --> 01:51:12.876
I'm stuck.

01:51:13.486 --> 01:51:14.916
Looking after a special needs kid.

01:51:14.916 --> 01:51:15.616
I'm stuck.

01:51:17.906 --> 01:51:20.296
Give us your one, two, three of

01:51:20.296 --> 01:51:20.636
Jill Cohen: unstuck.

01:51:20.636 --> 01:51:24.246
Go outside and look around.

01:51:25.896 --> 01:51:27.966
Just go outside and look around.

01:51:28.476 --> 01:51:29.896
It's that's just the dirt.

01:51:31.006 --> 01:51:31.876
Sit on the dirt.

01:51:32.276 --> 01:51:33.996
Notice, listen to a bird.

01:51:34.536 --> 01:51:37.396
How can you not be joyful
listening to a bird?

01:51:37.436 --> 01:51:40.526
It takes you into the
present moment of the chirp.

01:51:40.906 --> 01:51:44.436
It's like, it's so easy
to just go outside.

01:51:44.626 --> 01:51:45.666
I mean, there's.

01:51:46.706 --> 01:51:48.546
I mean, we can see clouds here.

01:51:48.546 --> 01:51:50.366
It's not smart.

01:51:50.366 --> 01:51:55.006
I mean, it's just kind of laying on
Lake Austin, you know, it's like,

01:51:55.006 --> 01:51:57.076
just go outside and look at a cloud.

01:51:57.486 --> 01:52:00.366
And everything is just,
it expands your awareness.

01:52:00.366 --> 01:52:06.956
It takes you out of that tight, stuck,
trapped place to expansion of what's

01:52:06.976 --> 01:52:09.896
possible and start to dream yourself awake

01:52:10.466 --> 01:52:11.776
Rupert Isaacson: to go outside.

01:52:13.131 --> 01:52:17.041
So move, that's the go outside
bit, move, move, and then go

01:52:17.041 --> 01:52:18.441
outside and then put your feet

01:52:18.441 --> 01:52:23.161
Jill Cohen: on the ground and your
head in the clouds and the head

01:52:23.161 --> 01:52:26.011
in the clouds and get bit, expand.

01:52:26.611 --> 01:52:31.581
Just let yourself dream what could,
you know, you know, to drink out

01:52:31.581 --> 01:52:34.851
what people are afraid to dream.

01:52:34.861 --> 01:52:36.501
It's like, who am I to dream?

01:52:36.501 --> 01:52:37.871
It's it's like dream there.

01:52:37.961 --> 01:52:40.371
Nobody, nobody's died from crying.

01:52:40.371 --> 01:52:40.811
Nobody's.

01:52:41.996 --> 01:52:48.366
Nobody's, it doesn't hurt anything to
dream and you start to dream and you

01:52:48.946 --> 01:52:54.096
any things become possible even if it's
one little thing, one little thought.

01:52:58.306 --> 01:53:00.956
Rupert Isaacson: When did we move
away from dreaming as a culture?

01:53:01.186 --> 01:53:02.526
That's an interesting one, isn't it?

01:53:02.836 --> 01:53:06.236
That you have, we have this
thing called mythology, right?

01:53:06.236 --> 01:53:07.286
We have this thing called religion.

01:53:07.286 --> 01:53:08.656
We have, what are those but dreams?

01:53:08.696 --> 01:53:10.686
You know, we have this
thing called culture.

01:53:10.936 --> 01:53:15.506
What is culture but an idea that somebody
had and other people had ideas, which

01:53:15.506 --> 01:53:18.646
meant that it came together for a
culture, which those ideas had to be.

01:53:18.991 --> 01:53:23.641
Thoughts at some point which thought
is aka dream and then you've got

01:53:23.641 --> 01:53:24.681
no choice about dreaming Right.

01:53:24.701 --> 01:53:27.781
Anyway, your brain daydreams
whether you want to or not, of

01:53:27.781 --> 01:53:33.101
course you dream at night When did
we decide that that was something

01:53:33.101 --> 01:53:34.471
to put as a oh, you're a dreamer.

01:53:34.471 --> 01:53:37.061
You're just a dreamer Well,
when did that become a bad

01:53:37.071 --> 01:53:41.941
Jill Cohen: right in school stop
daydreaming pay attention It's like isn't

01:53:41.941 --> 01:53:47.501
that that part of the brain or little
to be able to dream in our imagination?

01:53:48.426 --> 01:53:48.756
Hmm.

01:53:48.936 --> 01:53:52.746
That imagination, it wasn't
okay to just space out.

01:53:52.986 --> 01:53:53.496
You know?

01:53:54.316 --> 01:53:55.276
It's like, come back here.

01:53:56.656 --> 01:53:57.436
Stop dreaming.

01:53:58.186 --> 01:53:58.396
Yeah.

01:53:58.396 --> 01:53:58.996
In school.

01:54:00.016 --> 01:54:00.736
In school.

01:54:00.916 --> 01:54:03.196
Stop daydreaming or pay attention.

01:54:04.236 --> 01:54:05.346
Rupert Isaacson: And of
course, what was school?

01:54:05.346 --> 01:54:07.926
School was a way to get people
to work in the factories.

01:54:08.796 --> 01:54:09.966
Exactly right.

01:54:09.971 --> 01:54:12.526
Where indoctrinate to dream.

01:54:12.816 --> 01:54:16.516
No one's gonna, no one's gonna dream their
way into a factory, or no one's gonna

01:54:16.516 --> 01:54:17.896
dream their way into being cannon fodder.

01:54:18.891 --> 01:54:22.031
I mean, unless you give them shit
dreams, I mean, I guess you could argue

01:54:22.031 --> 01:54:27.291
that the young Russians that, you know,
sign up for Wagner private minute, you

01:54:27.291 --> 01:54:32.291
know, mercenary company or whatever have
been down such a shit rabbit hole of

01:54:32.781 --> 01:54:36.941
depression that that's the only dream
they can dream to get out of that.

01:54:36.941 --> 01:54:38.381
But it's complete manipulation.

01:54:38.381 --> 01:54:42.101
They're being manipulated by men
in power to go and die in that tens

01:54:42.101 --> 01:54:43.471
of thousands on the battlefield.

01:54:44.141 --> 01:54:46.351
And of course that's been going
on for thousands of years.

01:54:46.901 --> 01:54:49.291
But it seems to be about social
control and manipulation.

01:54:49.291 --> 01:54:50.141
Wouldn't you agree?

01:54:51.081 --> 01:54:52.301
Jill Cohen: Yeah, absolutely.

01:54:52.301 --> 01:54:56.331
Because in the old traditions, it's
like, you know, I've I've gone into

01:54:56.331 --> 01:55:01.201
the Kiva and we dream for like four
days and that's when we let go and let

01:55:01.201 --> 01:55:08.191
our spirits fly in the inner realms
and get informed of what's possible.

01:55:09.116 --> 01:55:11.026
Rupert Isaacson: And it seems to
me that, I mean, you're, you're

01:55:11.026 --> 01:55:15.756
the living proof of this, that you
can, you can have these values.

01:55:16.226 --> 01:55:20.796
Movement, nature, go outside, dance
around the kitchen go into go on a

01:55:20.796 --> 01:55:24.386
vision quest of four days, be a total
hippie, and yet still make money.

01:55:24.951 --> 01:55:26.421
And yet still run a business.

01:55:26.851 --> 01:55:29.511
It's as if, again, back to where
we began, that people think that

01:55:30.401 --> 01:55:33.351
these two things are somehow
mutually exclusive from each other.

01:55:33.911 --> 01:55:36.871
And what I've found, again, through
this Live Free, Ride Free podcast, but

01:55:36.891 --> 01:55:41.451
that's partly why I decided to do it,
was that most people I know who are the

01:55:41.451 --> 01:55:43.211
most successful, they dream all the time.

01:55:44.031 --> 01:55:46.201
And they, they really prioritize it.

01:55:46.211 --> 01:55:48.991
They, they, they go...

01:55:49.001 --> 01:55:49.531
Jill Cohen: I love my dream

01:55:49.551 --> 01:55:49.971
Rupert Isaacson: time.

01:55:51.501 --> 01:55:55.621
So is, is, is that, is that
really the key to unstuckness?

01:55:56.941 --> 01:55:57.781
Is the dreaming.

01:55:59.986 --> 01:56:00.926
Jill Cohen: It's a piece of it.

01:56:01.656 --> 01:56:07.096
It's a big piece of it is to dream
and to, and to, and it's that

01:56:07.096 --> 01:56:10.196
young, that, that young messaging.

01:56:10.196 --> 01:56:13.106
Sometimes we have to, it's like,
our parents are done bringing us up.

01:56:13.106 --> 01:56:13.906
We're 18 or 21.

01:56:14.596 --> 01:56:15.226
We're on our own.

01:56:15.556 --> 01:56:17.776
And then we get to continue
to raise ourselves.

01:56:18.191 --> 01:56:22.321
And give ourselves that positive,
you know, like my mother, when I was

01:56:22.321 --> 01:56:26.231
young, she told me, Jill, you can do
and be whatever you want to be, do.

01:56:26.321 --> 01:56:27.371
It was like, there was no limits.

01:56:27.371 --> 01:56:29.861
It was like, that was the
messaging they gave me.

01:56:29.861 --> 01:56:32.531
I was like, oh, oh, oh.

01:56:33.691 --> 01:56:38.181
And it's, and, and even if people
didn't get that when they were

01:56:38.181 --> 01:56:39.671
little, they can begin now.

01:56:39.681 --> 01:56:46.101
We need to then take over our own
parenting and continue to raise

01:56:46.101 --> 01:56:48.921
that stuck inner child, which is.

01:56:49.586 --> 01:56:53.046
You know, some of the work that I
do is going back to the wounds of

01:56:53.046 --> 01:56:58.756
the inner child and letting them
self express and get it out and yell

01:56:58.756 --> 01:57:00.946
and scream and cry and fear and.

01:57:01.801 --> 01:57:09.811
All that and then go in as the parent
or have them bring their higher self

01:57:09.811 --> 01:57:12.051
in to then say, well, what's possible.

01:57:12.961 --> 01:57:16.281
What qualities do you want to give
that little child that they didn't

01:57:16.341 --> 01:57:20.941
get when they were young and have
them receive those qualities to be

01:57:20.941 --> 01:57:23.176
able to dream and imagine a quality.

01:57:24.786 --> 01:57:29.596
And and release that old wounded
part and begin to raise and

01:57:29.596 --> 01:57:31.626
foster our own woundedness.

01:57:35.376 --> 01:57:36.166
Rupert Isaacson: It's our birthright.

01:57:37.216 --> 01:57:38.306
Jill Cohen: It's our birthright.

01:57:38.896 --> 01:57:39.396
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:57:39.996 --> 01:57:40.276
Right.

01:57:40.276 --> 01:57:44.016
It's everybody's birthright
to, to actually to live

01:57:44.016 --> 01:57:45.106
through their imagination.

01:57:45.946 --> 01:57:49.526
And it's the reality of life that you,
everyone does actually live through

01:57:49.526 --> 01:57:52.966
their imagination whether they think it
or not, whether they realize it or not,

01:57:53.256 --> 01:57:55.206
they, they, they think something up.

01:57:56.156 --> 01:57:57.726
And they go off into that reality.

01:57:57.796 --> 01:57:58.086
That's

01:57:58.086 --> 01:57:58.856
Jill Cohen: creation.

01:57:58.896 --> 01:58:00.166
That's creativity.

01:58:01.086 --> 01:58:03.436
An artist creates from
something from nothing.

01:58:04.116 --> 01:58:04.436
Right, but

01:58:04.906 --> 01:58:07.886
Rupert Isaacson: even, even,
even when one's saying...

01:58:08.066 --> 01:58:09.326
Angst, and yeah.

01:58:10.246 --> 01:58:10.796
Paint the angst.

01:58:11.346 --> 01:58:11.876
Jill Cohen: Okay.

01:58:12.716 --> 01:58:13.506
Express it.

01:58:13.986 --> 01:58:16.953
Don't let it stay in
there, but express it.

01:58:16.953 --> 01:58:17.628
Express it.

01:58:17.628 --> 01:58:18.546
Let it get big.

01:58:18.556 --> 01:58:19.346
Exaggerate

01:58:19.346 --> 01:58:19.366
Rupert Isaacson: it.

01:58:19.876 --> 01:58:23.096
And then if you do that, how does
that in the law of attraction,

01:58:23.096 --> 01:58:24.136
not just make more of it come?

01:58:26.576 --> 01:58:29.136
Jill Cohen: You focus on something,
you focus on what you want.

01:58:29.636 --> 01:58:32.226
It's like you go into your heart
and go, what do I really want?

01:58:32.226 --> 01:58:34.656
So many people have no
clue what they want.

01:58:34.666 --> 01:58:37.296
They don't want this, but they,
they don't have a clue of what

01:58:37.296 --> 01:58:39.766
they want, how they want it to be.

01:58:40.446 --> 01:58:42.536
It's like, well, you don't like this, but.

01:58:43.081 --> 01:58:47.791
What do you like and then be in the
realm of, Oh, this brings me joy.

01:58:47.821 --> 01:58:48.761
That brings me joy.

01:58:48.761 --> 01:58:52.881
And then it just, it kind of blossoms,
it grows and percolates and bubbles up.

01:58:52.881 --> 01:58:56.561
And then it's like, you go, Oh yeah,
it's like, yeah, I had a client that

01:58:56.561 --> 01:59:01.721
was just got back from Greece and they
spent five days swimming three miles a

01:59:01.721 --> 01:59:07.111
day and I just went, Oh my God, I forgot
how much I love to swim in the ocean.

01:59:07.411 --> 01:59:11.181
And it's like, I'm going to go
get myself a new wetsuit and.

01:59:11.516 --> 01:59:16.246
There's a group that swims Sunday mornings
and I'm going to start swimming again

01:59:16.416 --> 01:59:19.576
because I love to be in the ocean I love
to swim and it was just through that.

01:59:19.756 --> 01:59:21.116
Oh, yeah, I remember.

01:59:21.536 --> 01:59:27.256
Oh, that sounds fun It's like starting to
imagine and then feel and then oh, yeah

01:59:27.256 --> 01:59:31.546
I remember what that feels like to be in
the ocean and moving my body and breathing

01:59:31.656 --> 01:59:35.566
and being in the you know But so eels and

01:59:35.926 --> 01:59:39.901
Rupert Isaacson: so we talk about
dream time Earlier in this podcast,

01:59:39.931 --> 01:59:44.581
we talked about that you need to
go talk to people in order to find

01:59:44.581 --> 01:59:48.061
solutions, reach out for help, but
also, you know, have conversations.

01:59:49.091 --> 01:59:49.951
I think you just hit on something.

01:59:49.961 --> 01:59:51.791
What is a conversation but a shared dream?

01:59:52.971 --> 01:59:53.791
Jill Cohen: A shared dream.

01:59:54.621 --> 01:59:55.361
Absolutely.

01:59:55.361 --> 01:59:56.371
We share our dreams.

01:59:56.371 --> 02:00:00.741
And that's something that I would do
with a group of people that I was with.

02:00:00.751 --> 02:00:06.551
We were studying Mayan medicine
wheel and the directions and

02:00:06.571 --> 02:00:07.811
we would go into the Kiva.

02:00:07.811 --> 02:00:10.191
We would dream for four
days in the wintertime.

02:00:10.191 --> 02:00:13.081
We'd go in and our dreams would
come and then we would share our

02:00:13.081 --> 02:00:18.931
dreams and we would inspire each
each other and, and awaken them.

02:00:19.141 --> 02:00:22.631
Forgot forgotten dreams, you
know, sometimes we have these

02:00:22.631 --> 02:00:24.881
dreams and then we push them away.

02:00:24.881 --> 02:00:25.811
We forget them.

02:00:25.811 --> 02:00:33.991
Then we remind each other of shared
dreams and and it all starts to happen.

02:00:33.991 --> 02:00:35.781
It's like, oh, yeah, I had that idea.

02:00:35.781 --> 02:00:36.941
I forgot about that.

02:00:37.041 --> 02:00:38.771
And it's the isolation.

02:00:38.771 --> 02:00:40.431
It's just staying.

02:00:41.706 --> 02:00:43.186
And touch is so important.

02:00:43.186 --> 02:00:47.116
It's like staying in touch with
people, but, but touch is so important.

02:00:47.116 --> 02:00:51.206
It's like, it's like, I can touch
somebody and it wakes up memories.

02:00:51.596 --> 02:00:57.086
Just that touch and being in
touch and connected and having

02:00:57.086 --> 02:00:59.556
ourselves all be touched.

02:00:59.556 --> 02:01:00.016
And then.

02:01:01.566 --> 02:01:05.776
Resonated and then they all remember
because I think all our memories are

02:01:05.776 --> 02:01:09.716
stored in ourselves and the water of life.

02:01:11.266 --> 02:01:17.286
What do we do to remember to become
whole again to be member to remember,

02:01:17.376 --> 02:01:20.136
there's a lot in, you know, there's a
lot of bullshit that we don't need to

02:01:20.136 --> 02:01:25.266
remember, but there are a lot of core
things that to remember, to remember

02:01:25.266 --> 02:01:31.156
what clean, fresh water tastes like
and crisp air in our nostrils to

02:01:31.156 --> 02:01:33.536
remember those feelings of aliveness.

02:01:33.616 --> 02:01:37.103
And then when we start to
remember, it's like, Oh yeah.

02:01:37.103 --> 02:01:41.296
And that awakens the desire
and, and moves us forward.

02:01:41.306 --> 02:01:44.396
And then we We share it, and
we talk about it, and we're a

02:01:44.416 --> 02:01:46.816
community, and let's do this.

02:01:48.096 --> 02:01:48.826
Rupert Isaacson: What do we do?

02:01:49.166 --> 02:01:50.216
What does somebody do?

02:01:50.346 --> 02:01:51.276
You talk about touch.

02:01:51.286 --> 02:01:55.496
So, for example, there's the good
and the bad of the social media age.

02:01:55.496 --> 02:01:58.446
The good of the social media age is,
look, here we are, we're talking on Zoom.

02:01:58.736 --> 02:01:59.376
I'm in Germany.

02:01:59.376 --> 02:02:00.346
You're in California.

02:02:00.666 --> 02:02:01.616
We're in touch.

02:02:01.616 --> 02:02:02.916
We're sharing the stream.

02:02:03.226 --> 02:02:04.586
We're, we're communicating.

02:02:04.846 --> 02:02:07.946
Of course, we already know each other,
but even if we didn't, we could do this.

02:02:08.446 --> 02:02:08.616
Yeah.

02:02:08.616 --> 02:02:08.861
Jill Cohen: Yeah.

02:02:09.241 --> 02:02:10.961
Yeah, I didn't know you
when I didn't know you.

02:02:11.361 --> 02:02:11.661
Right.

02:02:11.801 --> 02:02:16.051
Rupert Isaacson: However, however, you
know, the not so good side of social media

02:02:16.051 --> 02:02:19.111
is staring into a computer all day not
being in physical contact with people,

02:02:19.111 --> 02:02:20.711
not being in actual contact with people.

02:02:20.981 --> 02:02:22.131
And one has to find that balance.

02:02:22.421 --> 02:02:22.981
Okay, fine.

02:02:24.031 --> 02:02:24.961
Go get touched.

02:02:25.251 --> 02:02:29.041
Yeah, so how do you, what do
you do if you live a life where

02:02:29.291 --> 02:02:30.901
you've got no one to touch?

02:02:30.921 --> 02:02:33.661
What do you do to, to,
to make sure that that...

02:02:35.266 --> 02:02:36.386
You touch yourself.

02:02:37.036 --> 02:02:37.606
Jill Cohen: Okay.

02:02:37.936 --> 02:02:39.406
I mean, you can talk.

02:02:39.726 --> 02:02:41.436
We've got ourselves, right?

02:02:41.436 --> 02:02:41.996
Ourselves.

02:02:42.006 --> 02:02:44.536
I do self work on myself all the time.

02:02:44.766 --> 02:02:45.206
What else?

02:02:45.326 --> 02:02:47.216
I'm always massaging myself.

02:02:47.256 --> 02:02:53.226
And then I'm drinking water,
drinking good water, hydrating.

02:02:53.396 --> 02:02:55.366
That's fluidity movement.

02:02:55.436 --> 02:02:57.566
We had the fluidity, the water.

02:02:57.876 --> 02:03:01.326
And then, and then the fluidity
is like the emotions start to

02:03:01.326 --> 02:03:02.716
come up and then the feelings.

02:03:02.716 --> 02:03:07.916
And then we, and then we have the longing
Comes to be with other people and then

02:03:07.916 --> 02:03:14.516
we reach out even if it's just talking to
somebody or sharing Your sadness or you're

02:03:14.566 --> 02:03:19.816
stuck in you you you're you're stuck in
this you you reach out you talk about it

02:03:20.096 --> 02:03:23.456
Rupert Isaacson: Is this is this also
where the the the getting out of one

02:03:23.476 --> 02:03:25.926
species thing happens to be useful?

02:03:25.936 --> 02:03:30.706
So for example, let's say You haven't got
a human in your life that you can touch.

02:03:30.736 --> 02:03:31.636
Okay, you can touch yourself.

02:03:31.656 --> 02:03:35.116
You could also book a massage,
but but you can pet a dog, right?

02:03:36.196 --> 02:03:36.336
Yeah.

02:03:37.136 --> 02:03:43.076
And you can put your hand on the
earth and you can go and hug a tree.

02:03:43.886 --> 02:03:47.836
And the tree hugging thing
is so interesting to me, how

02:03:48.236 --> 02:03:50.386
people feel so weird about it.

02:03:51.176 --> 02:03:52.796
And then the science got done on it.

02:03:52.906 --> 02:03:54.366
And of course, what did they find?

02:03:54.466 --> 02:03:59.566
But that the electromagnetic frequency
is being thrown out by large trees.

02:04:00.131 --> 02:04:01.841
Enormous and

02:04:01.841 --> 02:04:05.281
Jill Cohen: enormous because those roots
go into the earth and the roots touch

02:04:05.281 --> 02:04:08.871
all the other roots and all the mycelium,
you know, that spreads over that's

02:04:09.671 --> 02:04:10.771
Rupert Isaacson: the earth itself made

02:04:10.771 --> 02:04:14.091
Jill Cohen: and then the communication
comes and you start hearing things

02:04:15.601 --> 02:04:17.191
Rupert Isaacson: and it just
flat out makes you feel good.

02:04:17.211 --> 02:04:19.261
You know, I mean, you might
feel silly, you might feel self

02:04:19.291 --> 02:04:20.041
conscious, but it feels good.

02:04:21.151 --> 02:04:24.311
So it's the idea of touch,
the idea of don't, don't

02:04:24.311 --> 02:04:26.251
limit it to one's own species.

02:04:26.711 --> 02:04:28.861
Now think, think about
rocks, think about animals.

02:04:28.861 --> 02:04:29.411
Think about.

02:04:30.206 --> 02:04:35.726
Think about the air moving on your
skin, or as you said, the cold water,

02:04:35.746 --> 02:04:39.646
you know, being in the water, whether
it's internally moving through you or

02:04:39.846 --> 02:04:41.216
moving in the ocean, that's all touched.

02:04:41.246 --> 02:04:41.536
And that

02:04:41.586 --> 02:04:45.436
Jill Cohen: connects us and then we're
connected and then we're not as alone.

02:04:45.816 --> 02:04:47.166
We're not as secluded.

02:04:49.181 --> 02:04:51.551
Rupert Isaacson: So there are always
solutions, we just have to dream them up.

02:04:52.701 --> 02:04:55.741
Jill Cohen: Yeah, we have to be
willing to get, to be, we have to

02:04:55.741 --> 02:05:01.511
be willing to go deeper into our
stuckness, to have it be so stuck

02:05:01.511 --> 02:05:03.081
that you just can't be stuck anymore.

02:05:03.481 --> 02:05:03.971
Is that...

02:05:03.971 --> 02:05:04.591
I mean, it's just...

02:05:05.801 --> 02:05:11.051
Rupert Isaacson: Is that what you
find in sort of all, all mythologies?

02:05:11.396 --> 02:05:15.186
This idea of the journey through the
underworld, is that what that is?

02:05:16.156 --> 02:05:18.186
Jill Cohen: Yeah, I think so.

02:05:18.516 --> 02:05:19.206
The mystery.

02:05:20.396 --> 02:05:21.376
Curiosity.

02:05:21.706 --> 02:05:24.706
Curiosity is soft.

02:05:25.816 --> 02:05:26.846
And openness.

02:05:28.026 --> 02:05:33.036
Because if you're curious, stuckness
is contraction and small and tight.

02:05:34.006 --> 02:05:37.456
Curiosity is like, Oh, maybe
there is something out there.

02:05:37.506 --> 02:05:41.966
Oh, maybe there is a possibility
of not having to be stuck.

02:05:43.056 --> 02:05:44.156
The possibility.

02:05:45.536 --> 02:05:47.626
Rupert Isaacson: And what is
curiosity, I suppose, but movement?

02:05:47.666 --> 02:05:50.456
Because the moment you're curious
about something, you move towards it.

02:05:51.396 --> 02:05:51.686
Yeah.

02:05:51.686 --> 02:05:52.666
You just, you just do, right?

02:05:52.686 --> 02:05:55.066
Physically, mentally,
emotionally, you move towards it.

02:05:55.066 --> 02:05:55.316
You can't

02:05:55.316 --> 02:05:55.746
Jill Cohen: help it.

02:05:56.076 --> 02:05:56.306
Yeah.

02:05:56.496 --> 02:05:56.936
Yeah.

02:05:57.676 --> 02:05:58.386
Because we're hunting animals.

02:05:58.386 --> 02:05:59.586
And that's how children are.

02:06:00.066 --> 02:06:06.096
They're curious because they're just,
everything's new and they haven't been

02:06:06.106 --> 02:06:11.876
programmed yet to don't touch, don't
get dirty, don't talk to that person.

02:06:12.436 --> 02:06:13.816
Rupert Isaacson: It's joy, curiosity.

02:06:16.331 --> 02:06:23.141
Jill Cohen: I think joy, yeah, it's
like a full expression of being alive

02:06:24.681 --> 02:06:33.881
is joy is the expression of aliveness
of every little cell in the curious of

02:06:33.881 --> 02:06:38.901
not knowing we're stuck when we think
we know everything we're stuck being

02:06:38.901 --> 02:06:41.791
open to the possibility of, oh, that we

02:06:41.791 --> 02:06:43.331
Rupert Isaacson: can be stuck
without knowing we're stuck.

02:06:44.281 --> 02:06:45.091
That's interesting.

02:06:45.301 --> 02:06:45.841
Oh yeah.

02:06:45.841 --> 02:06:47.011
So yeah, so you can know you're stuck.

02:06:47.011 --> 02:06:47.581
There you are.

02:06:47.586 --> 02:06:47.811
Oh yeah.

02:06:48.091 --> 02:06:50.701
You're, you're, you
are doing Sequoia 24 7.

02:06:50.911 --> 02:06:52.321
There you are doing your mother's cancer.

02:06:52.321 --> 02:06:55.021
There you are, you're doing your mother's
dementia and you say, okay, I'm stuck.

02:06:55.021 --> 02:06:57.871
I'm actually physically
can't mo leave this property.

02:06:58.141 --> 02:06:58.561
I'm stuck.

02:06:59.741 --> 02:07:01.181
But you're right actually.

02:07:01.301 --> 02:07:02.201
But I can dream.

02:07:03.091 --> 02:07:04.911
You dream and I can dream
and I can dream what's next.

02:07:04.911 --> 02:07:10.311
And imagine, or I could be moving
through life making, you know,

02:07:10.551 --> 02:07:14.391
apparently successful, but not really
curious about anything and not.

02:07:15.376 --> 02:07:16.706
Not developing, that's pretty

02:07:16.706 --> 02:07:19.236
Jill Cohen: stuck, that's
stuck, that would be stuck in

02:07:19.236 --> 02:07:20.706
my, that's a different stuck.

02:07:20.736 --> 02:07:24.256
It's a less, it's kind
of a covert stuckness.

02:07:24.966 --> 02:07:25.686
That's obvious.

02:07:27.336 --> 02:07:27.696
Yeah.

02:07:29.866 --> 02:07:30.136
Yeah.

02:07:30.136 --> 02:07:32.816
Just going down those, those
neural pathways that have

02:07:32.816 --> 02:07:34.016
just been there forever.

02:07:34.016 --> 02:07:36.606
And you're not even aware
there's another track to go down.

02:07:39.861 --> 02:07:42.051
Sometimes we need to
take wrong turns in life.

02:07:42.841 --> 02:07:43.061
Well,

02:07:43.061 --> 02:07:43.811
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

02:07:43.891 --> 02:07:47.421
I was just last night interviewing
for the other podcast, which

02:07:47.431 --> 02:07:49.231
is Equine Assisted World.

02:07:49.671 --> 02:07:50.711
I was interviewing Dr.

02:07:50.711 --> 02:07:54.981
Steven Peters, who's a neuroscientist
and neurosurgeon who also happens to be a

02:07:54.981 --> 02:07:56.731
horseman and also happens to be autistic.

02:07:57.431 --> 02:08:01.001
And he said, Ru, it all comes
down to axons and dendrites.

02:08:01.841 --> 02:08:03.141
And I said, what do you mean?

02:08:03.261 --> 02:08:05.831
And he said, well, if you're curious.

02:08:06.321 --> 02:08:11.111
What happens is you reach out and you
touch things and you have these sensory

02:08:11.111 --> 02:08:16.931
experiences Which then inform your brain
about what's out there and that causes

02:08:16.931 --> 02:08:21.811
your brain to forge new neural pathways
First in big ways that are called axons

02:08:21.811 --> 02:08:28.171
and then out in little like branches and
then Dendrites Little twigs which are the

02:08:28.171 --> 02:08:33.011
dendrites and that these need to when they
find other dendrites they fuse with them

02:08:33.411 --> 02:08:37.061
And then create neural pathways and that
you can always create new neural pathways.

02:08:37.061 --> 02:08:39.701
But if you don't do that, that's
basically what depression is.

02:08:39.701 --> 02:08:40.381
And that's what he said.

02:08:40.381 --> 02:08:40.631
Rupert.

02:08:40.631 --> 02:08:40.991
It's.

02:08:41.811 --> 02:08:42.731
Exactly.

02:08:42.771 --> 02:08:45.661
And he said, you've got to be your own
internal gardener, your own internal

02:08:45.671 --> 02:08:49.851
forester to create as many dendrites
in your brain as you possibly can.

02:08:49.851 --> 02:08:53.361
And it was so nice to have
it sort of put in those.

02:08:54.161 --> 02:08:54.421
Okay.

02:08:54.541 --> 02:08:55.061
Dendrites.

02:08:55.121 --> 02:08:55.541
I'm on it.

02:08:55.581 --> 02:08:56.441
Let's go get some dendrites.

02:08:58.461 --> 02:09:00.981
Jill Cohen: Well, that's what John Barnes,
my, my, a fascial teacher, he says,

02:09:01.001 --> 02:09:05.481
you know, it's depression only leads to
something happens and then you have a

02:09:05.481 --> 02:09:09.241
decision, you make a decision about it
and then you don't do anything about it.

02:09:09.991 --> 02:09:15.031
And then everything tightens up and you're
stuck and it's like, just put your hand

02:09:15.031 --> 02:09:20.671
on somebody and then it's like, create
space and do neural pathways open up

02:09:20.671 --> 02:09:23.291
the river can flow the fluids can flow.

02:09:23.741 --> 02:09:24.041
Right?

02:09:24.051 --> 02:09:24.751
And so it's.

02:09:25.246 --> 02:09:27.046
Rupert Isaacson: And petting the
dog, putting the hand on the earth,

02:09:27.046 --> 02:09:29.506
hugging the tree, jumping in the
water, that, what's that going to do?

02:09:29.506 --> 02:09:30.596
It cause dendrites in your brain.

02:09:30.596 --> 02:09:31.486
It's going to create new neural

02:09:31.536 --> 02:09:31.996
Jill Cohen: pathways.

02:09:32.266 --> 02:09:32.746
Absolutely.

02:09:33.046 --> 02:09:33.356
Yes.

02:09:33.586 --> 02:09:38.676
And awakened and alive and,
and yeah, because depression is

02:09:39.266 --> 02:09:39.706
Rupert Isaacson: stuck.

02:09:40.096 --> 02:09:42.856
They ought to teach us neuroscience
in school, shouldn't they?

02:09:44.566 --> 02:09:47.916
Because if they, can you imagine if one
got these, these, these user manuals to

02:09:47.916 --> 02:09:54.136
the brain, you know, these basic concepts,
10, you know, that one could go on and.

02:09:56.036 --> 02:09:56.376
Yeah.

02:09:56.686 --> 02:10:00.676
Instead of having to try to prize
these neuroscientists out of their

02:10:00.676 --> 02:10:02.146
ivory towers to come and talk to us.

02:10:02.766 --> 02:10:03.076
Right.

02:10:03.506 --> 02:10:04.556
But, you know, when he said that,

02:10:04.566 --> 02:10:08.246
Jill Cohen: it's like, and only if you
go to college or university or yeah.

02:10:08.816 --> 02:10:09.286
Rupert Isaacson: But anyone

02:10:09.286 --> 02:10:09.396
Jill Cohen: can.

02:10:11.166 --> 02:10:11.386
Right.

02:10:11.386 --> 02:10:13.276
Your kids or the littles could do it.

02:10:13.406 --> 02:10:13.856
Yeah,

02:10:13.966 --> 02:10:14.586
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.

02:10:14.626 --> 02:10:15.286
Exactly.

02:10:15.296 --> 02:10:18.936
In fact, I'd say the younger the
kid, the more they get it because

02:10:18.936 --> 02:10:20.046
they're not, you know, you can.

02:10:20.056 --> 02:10:20.086
Right.

02:10:21.291 --> 02:10:24.911
Jill Cohen: It's a simple, they don't have
a ton of belief systems that push it out.

02:10:25.031 --> 02:10:25.271
Yeah.

02:10:25.301 --> 02:10:25.541
Right.

02:10:25.901 --> 02:10:26.621
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

02:10:26.711 --> 02:10:27.041
Yeah.

02:10:28.251 --> 02:10:28.881
Dendrites.

02:10:28.881 --> 02:10:29.331
Cool.

02:10:29.841 --> 02:10:30.501
Dendrites.

02:10:31.361 --> 02:10:32.381
Dendrites and love it.

02:10:32.591 --> 02:10:33.401
Getting unstuck.

02:10:33.971 --> 02:10:35.081
Axons, dendrites.

02:10:35.431 --> 02:10:36.381
Get your ass moving

02:10:37.241 --> 02:10:37.461
Jill Cohen: out.

02:10:37.561 --> 02:10:38.581
Get your boot, get

02:10:39.361 --> 02:10:39.881
Rupert Isaacson: your booty moving.

02:10:40.471 --> 02:10:43.001
Alright, listen.

02:10:43.001 --> 02:10:44.801
But I need to do . Yeah.

02:10:44.806 --> 02:10:47.291
I know you've sat here looking
at this screen for a while.

02:10:47.701 --> 02:10:49.831
Well, let's begin to wrap up.

02:10:50.011 --> 02:10:51.061
What are you dreaming?

02:10:51.061 --> 02:10:52.561
Where are you dreaming yourself to now?

02:10:53.251 --> 02:10:56.571
In this apparent stuckness, where,
where, where, where you're going,

02:10:57.041 --> 02:10:59.161
Jill Cohen: I'm dreaming
a future for Sequoia.

02:11:00.321 --> 02:11:02.901
That's really where my
biggest stuckness is.

02:11:02.901 --> 02:11:04.681
My mom has lived a beautiful life.

02:11:04.701 --> 02:11:05.991
I'm caring for her.

02:11:06.901 --> 02:11:11.411
She's, and it's like, at some point,
her journey is going to conclude

02:11:11.421 --> 02:11:18.151
and I will have time and energy and
making good money and saving money.

02:11:18.861 --> 02:11:24.131
And I want to keep having conversations
of what's possible for Sequoia and

02:11:24.131 --> 02:11:27.371
all the kids that are out there on the
spectrum, because that's the biggest

02:11:27.431 --> 02:11:33.361
pain, stuckness that, you know, like
my mom said the other day, she was

02:11:33.371 --> 02:11:36.381
in one of her mood and she goes, if
I was gone, you'd be totally happy.

02:11:36.381 --> 02:11:37.421
I said, no.

02:11:37.876 --> 02:11:38.736
I've got square.

02:11:39.036 --> 02:11:43.336
It's like, I'm never going to be happy
until I feel that he is living his,

02:11:43.386 --> 02:11:44.586
he's always going to be autistic.

02:11:44.586 --> 02:11:45.706
I love that with them.

02:11:45.786 --> 02:11:48.716
It's like we were in Scotland
and being, it was like, it was so

02:11:48.716 --> 02:11:50.606
much fricking fun being autistic.

02:11:50.796 --> 02:11:52.116
It's like, so free.

02:11:52.776 --> 02:11:55.946
It's like, as Scott says,
it's like ego lists.

02:11:55.966 --> 02:11:59.056
It's like to just be you without any.

02:11:59.746 --> 02:12:02.186
You know, committee, they're
saying you shouldn't do that.

02:12:04.346 --> 02:12:08.046
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so the new dream,
the dendrites are going to come, the

02:12:08.046 --> 02:12:15.396
new dendrites are going to come through
now dreaming this life for Sequoia.

02:12:16.646 --> 02:12:18.056
What's that life?

02:12:18.276 --> 02:12:26.826
So shut your eyes, tell us, let your
dendrites fuse, and tell us the picture.

02:12:26.826 --> 02:12:27.716
What does it look like?

02:12:27.716 --> 02:12:29.656
What's happening in Sequoia's life?

02:12:29.656 --> 02:12:30.026
And then.

02:12:30.786 --> 02:12:31.446
How do we dream ourselves?

02:12:31.526 --> 02:12:31.676
I

02:12:31.676 --> 02:12:37.656
Jill Cohen: can see him out in nature,
being able to wander being able to sit

02:12:37.656 --> 02:12:43.306
on the ground, being able to eat from
the garden, be able to pick berries

02:12:43.406 --> 02:12:48.016
being able to swim in the lake being
able to sing at the top of his lungs

02:12:48.016 --> 02:12:50.956
and feel fully expressed and joyous.

02:12:52.006 --> 02:12:56.566
To have community around him
that loves him and supports him

02:13:01.576 --> 02:13:02.996
Rupert Isaacson: as part of this dream.

02:13:04.046 --> 02:13:05.946
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt
you say what you were going

02:13:05.956 --> 02:13:06.336
Jill Cohen: to say.

02:13:06.911 --> 02:13:10.151
Just to be able to have
peace inside of his own body.

02:13:14.421 --> 02:13:18.021
Yeah, for the, for the, for the
volume to come down for him.

02:13:18.421 --> 02:13:21.731
I think the volume's so turned up.

02:13:22.951 --> 02:13:27.741
Rupert Isaacson: Because service is
so integral to human happiness and

02:13:27.741 --> 02:13:34.061
joy, how in this can Sequoia find
his way to service, to be of service,

02:13:35.201 --> 02:13:40.191
so that he can find that mature
type of fulfillment and happiness?

02:13:41.151 --> 02:13:42.211
Where do you see him serving?

02:13:44.024 --> 02:13:48.624
Jill Cohen: I have to see
him out of his stuckness.

02:13:48.624 --> 02:13:48.634
I

02:13:49.855 --> 02:13:50.605
can see him.

02:13:51.701 --> 02:13:52.161
Wow.

02:13:52.201 --> 02:13:56.801
I had a vision many, many years ago,
and he was little and projecting

02:13:56.811 --> 02:14:00.171
out in time, and he came, and he
goes, Grandma, come, we're going

02:14:00.171 --> 02:14:01.871
to go into the kiva now and dream.

02:14:03.921 --> 02:14:05.951
It's time to go in and
dream for our people.

02:14:06.281 --> 02:14:07.391
Dream for our community.

02:14:08.284 --> 02:14:08.884
Like a shaman.

02:14:08.884 --> 02:14:09.414
He's a dreamer.

02:14:10.214 --> 02:14:10.524
He's a

02:14:10.524 --> 02:14:11.044
Rupert Isaacson: shaman.

02:14:11.064 --> 02:14:11.854
He's a dreamer.

02:14:12.074 --> 02:14:13.724
Like an active dreamer to help people

02:14:13.974 --> 02:14:14.194
Jill Cohen: dream.

02:14:14.194 --> 02:14:16.654
Come on, Grandma, it's time
for us to go and dream.

02:14:16.654 --> 02:14:18.384
Dream for our

02:14:18.384 --> 02:14:18.904
Rupert Isaacson: people.

02:14:20.479 --> 02:14:22.429
That sounds, that sounds achievable.

02:14:23.429 --> 02:14:24.019
Yeah, it does.

02:14:24.049 --> 02:14:25.119
That sounds doable.

02:14:25.119 --> 02:14:26.619
I mean, one can build a Kiva.

02:14:27.987 --> 02:14:30.287
you a dream I had.

02:14:31.687 --> 02:14:33.967
You know, Scub just
showed up an hour ago, so.

02:14:35.027 --> 02:14:39.067
So, I had this, I had this dream
when he was about three and

02:14:39.067 --> 02:14:41.347
at his most severely autistic.

02:14:42.327 --> 02:14:49.247
And the dream was, I arrive at
this airport and this tall, young,

02:14:50.607 --> 02:14:55.977
handsome young man comes and
picks me up and we get in his car.

02:14:55.977 --> 02:14:59.132
And And that, you know,
he's always taller than me.

02:14:59.132 --> 02:15:03.232
I'm looking up at him, carrying my bags,
you know, he's a real young gentleman.

02:15:03.232 --> 02:15:05.202
And we get in his car and
then we're driving off to

02:15:05.212 --> 02:15:06.812
wherever, and it's, it's him.

02:15:08.132 --> 02:15:12.452
And I remember thinking, I don't know
how the fuck I'm going to get to that.

02:15:12.812 --> 02:15:13.902
That's impossible.

02:15:14.102 --> 02:15:16.252
But it's, it's clear as day.

02:15:16.552 --> 02:15:17.562
It's in my mind.

02:15:17.812 --> 02:15:18.662
It's in my dream.

02:15:19.382 --> 02:15:21.912
But I do know that it's the
direction in which I want to go.

02:15:22.932 --> 02:15:30.032
Well, in 2021, 15 years after having
had that dream, a waking dream.

02:15:32.112 --> 02:15:34.622
I arrived at Austin Airport,
I flew back to Texas.

02:15:36.822 --> 02:15:40.532
Scub came and picked me up, and he was,
he was being totally autistic, right?

02:15:40.532 --> 02:15:45.242
He was, he was there, dimming
away in the, in the arrivals area.

02:15:45.312 --> 02:15:50.302
But nonetheless, tall, taller
than me, good looking young man,

02:15:50.952 --> 02:15:54.272
built, has shown up to get me.

02:15:54.822 --> 02:16:01.832
And we go walking out of the airport
to his car, it's his car, he's driving.

02:16:03.677 --> 02:16:07.217
And, as I'm putting the bag,
well actually he puts my bags in,

02:16:08.337 --> 02:16:09.337
because he's always a gentleman.

02:16:10.237 --> 02:16:15.947
And I get in the passenger seat
and he starts to back out and

02:16:15.947 --> 02:16:17.297
I go, oh fuck, it happened.

02:16:18.547 --> 02:16:19.267
This is it.

02:16:20.117 --> 02:16:22.037
It, it happened.

02:16:22.957 --> 02:16:24.817
I dreamt it and it happened.

02:16:25.307 --> 02:16:26.477
And it happened.

02:16:26.927 --> 02:16:32.117
And then two nights later, we went to
see a couple of friends and I said,

02:16:32.157 --> 02:16:35.447
you know, Scub, I'm going to drink a
couple of beers when we go, so will

02:16:35.447 --> 02:16:36.877
you be all right driving me back?

02:16:36.887 --> 02:16:38.707
And I thought it was freaking
out that we were even having

02:16:38.707 --> 02:16:39.757
this type of conversation.

02:16:40.247 --> 02:16:48.957
And, and I found myself in the passenger
seat again at night, we're driving,

02:16:49.107 --> 02:16:51.097
we're leaving the pub where we've been.

02:16:51.497 --> 02:16:52.137
It's raining.

02:16:52.137 --> 02:16:55.407
So he's driving in the rain in
five lanes of traffic, you know, on

02:16:55.407 --> 02:16:57.667
the changing lanes on the freeway.

02:16:58.677 --> 02:17:01.607
And I'm looking at him going,
I used to, you used to be.

02:17:03.567 --> 02:17:07.657
Non verbal and incontinent,
and here am I now, non verbal

02:17:07.657 --> 02:17:07.677
Jill Cohen: and incontinent.

02:17:07.677 --> 02:17:08.837
And tantruming in the back seat.

02:17:09.027 --> 02:17:09.157
Right.

02:17:09.987 --> 02:17:13.747
Rupert Isaacson: I'm the one now non
verbal and incontinent in this ad.

02:17:13.747 --> 02:17:14.957
And we've totally shifted roles.

02:17:15.387 --> 02:17:18.717
You know, so your, your dream
that you just articulated

02:17:19.147 --> 02:17:20.677
for sure is going to happen.

02:17:21.517 --> 02:17:21.617
Yeah.

02:17:21.677 --> 02:17:26.087
And maybe it takes a certain
frustration to start launching that

02:17:26.087 --> 02:17:30.067
rocket of desire, but for him to be
able to be a person that helps other

02:17:30.067 --> 02:17:31.837
people to, that's called coaching.

02:17:31.837 --> 02:17:32.727
That's life coaching.

02:17:32.727 --> 02:17:35.337
That's, you know, and you
know, and there's autistic

02:17:35.337 --> 02:17:36.257
people out there doing it.

02:17:36.307 --> 02:17:37.477
You know, Dr.

02:17:37.477 --> 02:17:42.117
Peter, Steve Temple Grandin,
Rowan, there's, there's lots of

02:17:42.127 --> 02:17:45.397
people out there who are pretty
severely autistic who go on to have.

02:17:45.962 --> 02:17:46.532
Careers.

02:17:46.532 --> 02:17:48.392
And so let's make that dream happen.

02:17:48.392 --> 02:17:49.832
Yeah, let's, let's, he's in there.

02:17:50.212 --> 02:17:50.752
Let's build that.

02:17:50.757 --> 02:17:50.952
Let's do that.

02:17:51.292 --> 02:17:51.832
Let's build that.

02:17:51.832 --> 02:17:52.222
Kiva.

02:17:52.702 --> 02:17:54.612
I'd love to go dream with Sequoia.

02:17:55.392 --> 02:17:57.612
The best heal I ever knew in the Kalahari.

02:17:57.672 --> 02:18:01.842
The Bushman Besa was, the
name was completely autistic.

02:18:02.052 --> 02:18:03.012
Never looked you in the eye.

02:18:03.462 --> 02:18:06.472
Flat, rocked, spoken completely with us.

02:18:06.472 --> 02:18:06.532
Wow.

02:18:07.542 --> 02:18:10.542
He people, you know, people
travel from all thousands of

02:18:10.542 --> 02:18:11.622
miles for healings from him.

02:18:12.272 --> 02:18:12.752
Jill Cohen: Why not?

02:18:12.992 --> 02:18:14.942
It doesn't have to look a certain way.

02:18:16.062 --> 02:18:20.182
That's if we get stuck, those
dendrites are stuck and it's like we

02:18:20.202 --> 02:18:22.002
think it has to look a certain way.

02:18:23.062 --> 02:18:23.342
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

02:18:23.612 --> 02:18:25.622
So I'd be very happy
to put my dendrites in.

02:18:26.352 --> 02:18:31.572
Oh, for purely selfish reasons, I would
love to go to that Kiva, you know.

02:18:33.352 --> 02:18:34.242
Jill Cohen: And dream ourselves

02:18:34.332 --> 02:18:34.832
Rupert Isaacson: awake.

02:18:34.902 --> 02:18:36.062
And dream ourselves awake.

02:18:36.102 --> 02:18:36.472
Yeah.

02:18:36.592 --> 02:18:37.142
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:18:37.162 --> 02:18:38.742
Jill Cohen: Dreams ourselves awake.

02:18:40.172 --> 02:18:43.372
Rupert Isaacson: So we, we dream
ourselves, dream ourselves out of

02:18:43.382 --> 02:18:44.792
stuckness by dreaming ourselves.

02:18:44.822 --> 02:18:45.242
Jill Cohen: Yes.

02:18:45.872 --> 02:18:46.452
Alive.

02:18:46.452 --> 02:18:47.812
We dream ourselves alive.

02:18:48.462 --> 02:18:51.702
And Helen Keller, she says it
takes a person who's wide awake

02:18:51.702 --> 02:18:53.122
to have their dreams come true.

02:18:53.567 --> 02:18:54.627
We need to be awake.

02:18:54.967 --> 02:19:00.247
We can't be stuck in those neural
pathways and asleep at the wheel.

02:19:00.287 --> 02:19:04.487
We have to dream ourselves awake
to have our dreams come true.

02:19:05.027 --> 02:19:05.467
Yeah.

02:19:06.357 --> 02:19:06.637
Okay.

02:19:07.047 --> 02:19:11.877
Our heart's desires, those desires,
yeah, those rockets of desire.

02:19:12.817 --> 02:19:14.897
And when they're from the heart, they're,

02:19:15.747 --> 02:19:16.077
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

02:19:17.417 --> 02:19:19.877
And for that, we need
to move, connect, dream.

02:19:21.057 --> 02:19:21.677
Jill Cohen: Yeah.

02:19:22.307 --> 02:19:25.717
Stay grateful, stay
grounded, stay in our hearts.

02:19:27.447 --> 02:19:28.397
Stay present.

02:19:28.827 --> 02:19:29.777
Rupert Isaacson: Get into nature.

02:19:30.347 --> 02:19:31.077
Notice stuff.

02:19:31.257 --> 02:19:32.977
Yeah, get into nature.

02:19:33.367 --> 02:19:33.977
Be connected.

02:19:34.177 --> 02:19:35.197
Jill Cohen: Hug a tree.

02:19:35.647 --> 02:19:36.767
Hug each other.

02:19:38.407 --> 02:19:38.607
Yeah.

02:19:38.677 --> 02:19:42.627
Yeah, we're hugging and dancing
and singing and moving and

02:19:42.887 --> 02:19:48.777
celebrating in life until life is a
celebration and not stop until then.

02:19:48.777 --> 02:19:48.797
Yeah.

02:19:51.287 --> 02:19:52.017
What else is there

02:19:52.077 --> 02:19:52.517
Rupert Isaacson: to do?

02:19:54.807 --> 02:19:55.197
It's true.

02:19:55.197 --> 02:19:56.417
I can't think of anything else really.

02:19:57.377 --> 02:19:57.637
Jill Cohen: I know.

02:20:00.527 --> 02:20:01.337
Go ride a horse.

02:20:01.707 --> 02:20:02.877
Rupert Isaacson: Well, yeah,
but that's, that's the same

02:20:02.877 --> 02:20:03.947
thing, just in a different way.

02:20:03.967 --> 02:20:04.837
Just hugging it with your legs.

02:20:04.837 --> 02:20:05.077
Exactly.

02:20:05.087 --> 02:20:06.407
Instead of your, yeah, absolutely.

02:20:06.817 --> 02:20:07.227
Yeah.

02:20:07.537 --> 02:20:07.987
Yeah.

02:20:08.087 --> 02:20:08.397
Jill Cohen: And your butt.

02:20:09.687 --> 02:20:10.377
Beautiful.

02:20:10.577 --> 02:20:14.157
So my dream is to come
and ride with you guys.

02:20:14.157 --> 02:20:14.447
Yeah.

02:20:15.557 --> 02:20:18.377
And go to Portugal, visit
my friends in Portugal.

02:20:18.377 --> 02:20:23.977
Go, I mean, my dream before the
cancer, it was, I was headed to

02:20:23.982 --> 02:20:27.607
Portugal to go see Sophia and

02:20:27.757 --> 02:20:28.327
Rupert Isaacson: Valencia.

02:20:28.887 --> 02:20:29.157
Yes.

02:20:29.157 --> 02:20:32.637
Those people who, dunno, the Valencia
family in Portugal, the, the Valencia

02:20:32.637 --> 02:20:38.777
family in Portugal are the, are the apogee
of classical dressage alive on the planet.

02:20:38.807 --> 02:20:42.437
When you enter that stable, it's like
you've gone back to the 18th century.

02:20:43.182 --> 02:20:45.122
But yes, come, come here
to Germany along the

02:20:45.122 --> 02:20:45.482
Jill Cohen: way.

02:20:45.642 --> 02:20:49.272
And those are the roots before we
got stuck in Odessa and Ukraine

02:20:49.272 --> 02:20:50.552
in the beginning in the 1500s.

02:20:50.552 --> 02:20:51.272
That's true, that's true.

02:20:51.962 --> 02:20:53.192
I want to go home.

02:20:53.912 --> 02:20:55.682
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's
through the Iberian Peninsula.

02:20:55.692 --> 02:21:02.307
The, well, obviously, initially Judea, but
That hasn't been home for since the Romans

02:21:02.317 --> 02:21:06.037
sacked it, you know, in 77 AD Romans.

02:21:06.157 --> 02:21:06.767
Yeah, well, hey,

02:21:09.757 --> 02:21:11.127
Jill Cohen: Home is where the heart is.

02:21:11.187 --> 02:21:12.427
Home is where we dream.

02:21:12.787 --> 02:21:13.187
Yeah.

02:21:14.267 --> 02:21:14.797
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:21:14.987 --> 02:21:16.817
So consider that dream done.

02:21:16.827 --> 02:21:19.257
The, the, the invitation is wide open.

02:21:19.617 --> 02:21:21.557
When you have a chance,
hop on a plane, come here.

02:21:21.557 --> 02:21:22.632
The horses are ready for you.

02:21:23.062 --> 02:21:25.452
The forest is waiting but
until then we'll dream.

02:21:26.792 --> 02:21:27.282
Thank you.

02:21:29.212 --> 02:21:34.592
So, normally at the end of one of
these podcasts, I give people websites

02:21:34.752 --> 02:21:37.072
and emails for people to contact.

02:21:37.652 --> 02:21:41.242
It doesn't sound like that's what
we're going to do here, Jill, does it?

02:21:42.032 --> 02:21:44.282
Jill Cohen: No, if you find me, find me.

02:21:44.302 --> 02:21:44.932
It's you

02:21:44.932 --> 02:21:45.252
Rupert Isaacson: don't have

02:21:45.252 --> 02:21:47.252
Jill Cohen: a website, do you?

02:21:47.252 --> 02:21:48.442
I don't have a website.

02:21:48.502 --> 02:21:51.612
I don't really have the time to
maintain it and life is flowing.

02:21:51.612 --> 02:21:56.812
The river, my river is flowing and
I'm working to keep, you know, right,

02:21:56.842 --> 02:21:59.672
keep everything moving and flowing and

02:22:00.882 --> 02:22:03.472
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, your
business is entirely word of mouth.

02:22:03.472 --> 02:22:09.652
I know but listen listeners, if you've
got a question for Jill, if you're in this

02:22:09.652 --> 02:22:14.142
situation, if you're Feeling stuck for
really good reasons, like you actually

02:22:14.142 --> 02:22:17.442
are stuck physically, you're looking after
somebody, you're, you, you, you can't move

02:22:17.452 --> 02:22:20.452
from the situation, and you're wondering
what to do, and you want to send her a

02:22:20.452 --> 02:22:28.942
question, or benefit from her wisdom,
send us an email here so, just write

02:22:29.002 --> 02:22:37.107
it to info, at info at horseboyworld.

02:22:37.147 --> 02:22:37.427
com.

02:22:37.447 --> 02:22:38.847
Info at horseboyworld.

02:22:38.847 --> 02:22:38.967
com.

02:22:38.967 --> 02:22:42.287
Just say question for Jill, and
what we'll do is we'll relay those

02:22:42.297 --> 02:22:46.017
questions, we'll collate them, collect
them, and then we'll get Jill back

02:22:46.017 --> 02:22:47.572
on and she'll answer them for you.

02:22:48.082 --> 02:22:48.512
How about that?

02:22:48.952 --> 02:22:49.612
Beautiful.

02:22:50.642 --> 02:22:51.292
All right, Jill.

02:22:51.452 --> 02:22:52.212
Mmm.

02:22:52.212 --> 02:22:52.707
Jill Cohen: It's been a treat.

02:22:52.707 --> 02:22:53.222
Thank you.

02:22:55.132 --> 02:22:55.472
It's been...

02:22:57.002 --> 02:22:57.592
Rupert Isaacson: Till next time.

02:22:58.122 --> 02:22:58.222
Oh, pleasure.

02:22:59.132 --> 02:23:00.682
I'm going to go off and
have a bit of a drink.

02:23:00.872 --> 02:23:02.002
You know what I'm going to do right now?

02:23:02.372 --> 02:23:06.382
I'm going to go, because it's getting
dark here, I'm going to take Rowan,

02:23:06.392 --> 02:23:08.732
we're going to go down into the creek.

02:23:09.227 --> 02:23:11.507
That's outside the house here,
and we're going to go look at

02:23:11.507 --> 02:23:13.127
fireflies while we walk the dog.

02:23:13.197 --> 02:23:13.967
Jill Cohen: Beautiful!

02:23:13.987 --> 02:23:15.737
And it's a full moon out.

02:23:16.107 --> 02:23:18.327
Go dream, and we will connect.

02:23:18.327 --> 02:23:19.747
I'll go look at the moon, too.

02:23:20.157 --> 02:23:20.667
Very good.

02:23:21.327 --> 02:23:22.817
Be in dream time together.

02:23:23.277 --> 02:23:23.427
All

02:23:23.427 --> 02:23:23.647
Rupert Isaacson: right.

02:23:24.367 --> 02:23:24.647
All right.

02:23:24.677 --> 02:23:25.437
I'll be very sensitive.

02:23:25.437 --> 02:23:25.607
Love you.

02:23:25.917 --> 02:23:26.307
Okay.

02:23:26.337 --> 02:23:26.867
Love you, too.

02:23:27.407 --> 02:23:27.807
All right.

02:23:28.877 --> 02:23:29.587
Till next time.

02:23:30.297 --> 02:23:30.557
Jill Cohen: Bye.

02:23:31.497 --> 02:23:31.747
Bye.

02:23:32.672 --> 02:23:33.782
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for joining us.

02:23:33.812 --> 02:23:35.642
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

02:23:35.880 --> 02:23:40.920
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

02:23:40.920 --> 02:23:46.110
courses and live workshops in Horse Boy
Method, movement Method, and Athena.

02:23:46.818 --> 02:23:51.466
These evidence-based programs have
helped children, veterans, and people

02:23:51.466 --> 02:23:53.476
dealing with trauma around the world.

02:23:53.803 --> 02:23:57.553
We also offer a horse training
program and self-care program

02:23:57.553 --> 02:24:00.793
for riders on long ride home.com.

02:24:01.092 --> 02:24:05.142
These include easy to do online
courses and tutorials that

02:24:05.142 --> 02:24:07.062
bring you and your horse joy.

02:24:07.598 --> 02:24:12.158
For an overview of all shows and
programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.

02:24:12.488 --> 02:24:13.418
See you on the next show.

02:24:13.831 --> 02:24:16.521
And please remember to
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