Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader, and this is the Silvercore podcast.
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So today I'm sitting down with a fellow within the ministry
of forest, BC wildfire service.
It's a senior wildfire officer of prevention within the coastal fire center.
Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Alan Barry.
Thank you.
I appreciate the invite.
Hey, I got it out first try.
You nailed it.
I thought I was going to have to do that one a few times.
So, um, we're chatting back and forth and Kimberly's been helping out as well.
She's just in the side room there, but.
Last year, big year for fires or wildfires within British Columbia and within your
role and your expertise, you've got a lot of different ideas and knowledge
on ways that wildfires can be prevented and figured this would be a good place
and good time to chat about it before we get into our next year, which is
probably going to be another hot one.
And if we follow the same kind of trends, having a bit of
knowledge is going to be important.
So really appreciate you being here on this.
Um, there I'll just figure I'll just start right from the get go.
There are some high emotions about what we could be talking about here.
Have you, have you felt that on your side?
Alan Berry: You know, I, I think, uh, initially when we start these
conversations, it's, uh, it can be sensitive, but as soon as I start.
Just explaining our perspective, um, some of the background, some of the
things that I've seen and, and really what the messaging that we're trying
to share people, the common sense prevails and people are like, Oh,
okay, you know what, tell me more, let me know, let me know what to,
you know, what I can do to help out.
And everybody realizes, you know, five of the last seven fire
seasons have been very significant in the province here last year.
Really big one.
And, uh, um, everybody wants to do their part and it, it impacts
all corners of the province.
So, um, whatever we can do and, uh, and usually once I get to
start passing all the messaging here, people usually come on board.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
And I think the messaging that can be listened to here is applicable on south of
the border, applicable in other provinces.
I mean, you're taking a very analytical approach to looking at how, uh, best.
To deal with our current situation.
And I mean, there's always going to be those who say, well, the problem's
going to be poor Silva culture over the last few hundred years.
Um, and yeah, I, I'd say that's definitely part of the problem.
That's led us to where we are right now.
We have to deal with the right now and how we're going to move forward into, um,
uh, a way and, uh, you know, education is going to be the best way to do this.
So.
Um, one of the areas that was talked about, and we've talked
about offline, it was firearms and their impact within fires,
particularly within British Columbia.
And that was the hot button topic that I think had other people really up in arms.
Alan Berry: Yeah, I agree.
I think the messaging for a long time, Smokely Bear did a great job.
It was campfires, uh, start wildfires.
So when we're looking at, at preventable wildfires, so, uh,
human caused campfires, still number one for us in the coast region.
Um, but, uh, we're starting to see a real understanding from folks
that are, that are using open fire specifically campfires in, in.
Understanding what they need to do, where to have the campfire, having their
eight liters of water with them, having a hand tool, making sure that it's
out, it's cold to touch when it's done.
And although we still continue to see wildfires associated with campfires,
they don't really spread, uh, too significantly compared to firearms
in particular, which we're starting to see as a real trending cause.
So we may within, within the coast region, we may see 30,
40 wildfires started from as.
Abandoned campfires or escaped campfires.
The numbers last year were, uh, less than 10 associated with firearms use or
suspected to have been firearms used.
In the coastal region?
Just in the coast region.
Yeah.
And, uh, but the impact of those, like the hectares burned is significantly higher.
The firearms related ones are really tricky because even, even
having conversations with folks who've, Hey, I was out with my son.
We were setting in our rifle prior to going out for hunting season, or
they were just shooting for, you know, for fun, for target practice and it's
a hundred yards out, 200 yards out, potentially even farther than that.
And, uh, yeah, A fire occurs and they're not ready for it.
It's not, it's not something that, you know, you're in tune to go out and your
target shooting at, say, a metal target, or rocks, or you hit something really
dry, like some dry moss or, or, um, it, a lot of times the areas, especially
on the coast that they're, They're shooting in is the big open areas.
So after harvesting, we call slash.
So it's the debris that's left over after, um, forced harvesting has occurred.
And that's, that can be really dry.
It gets really dry, really quickly.
And, uh, we're starting to see a lot of fires associated with that.
Travis Bader: Interesting.
You know, I know I was getting some heat from different, uh, Groups and different
organizations are like, what, why do you want to talk about this, Travis?
I mean, why is this something that you want to have on the podcast?
Because all they're going to want to do is they're going to want to limit
our ability to go shoot outside.
And I look at it a little bit differently.
Um, and I, and I look at it in the similar way to leave the guys names, Barry Konkin.
I was just local politics here in, in Delta.
And there was one point when Delta.
Said we're going to ban gun businesses in the corporation, now
city of Delta and current ones.
They'll be grandfathered.
You can sell it.
You can keep it there.
Similar to what the city of Surrey has done.
And I remember I, I, Okay.
I got to be at this, this, uh, meeting at the city hall there.
I got to get my two bits, do all my research.
I got all my information together and I stood up and I'm giving all my, my bits.
Well, here's why you're wrong.
I'm saying, and here, here's all the great benefits too.
And, and go through this whole thing.
And finally, this guy stands up, I think his name was Barry.
And he says, Travis, hold on a second.
How much more of this do you have?
I was like, well, I got a whole bunch, right?
He's like, well, Number one, we only have so much time.
Number two, I agree with everything you're saying.
I agree with all these points that you're making, but this is politics.
If we think this is what the public wants, then this is what we're going to look at.
We're going to look at doing it.
If that's what we think that everybody wants.
And I thought, oh, and I wasn't prepared for that level of honesty.
And so when I look at this issue as a firearm Owner myself,
wouldn't it be much better to have the conversation and understand
where both sides are coming from.
And so that the public can be properly informed, properly informed as to
where people are going so that these decisions can be made and in a way where
everyone's got their two bits in it.
So that's, that was my big motivator behind this, and I couldn't understand
why others wouldn't want that.
To, uh, to have that conversation, but I do get the fear.
Alan Berry: Yeah.
And I think there's sensitivities in many aspects of the use of firearms
for a variety of different reasons.
Um, I I'm solely coming at this from a, I look at.
Every single wildfire that occurs in the coast region, I look at the cause.
We, we investigate every single one of them, some of them to
a much more detailed degree.
So your, your one off little one where our crew shows up, there's a
car carcass sitting there smoldering.
We know what's happened there.
Right.
But, uh, when you show up, And again, some of these larger fires, when
we're bringing, we bring origin cause investigators, this is their sole job.
And they go in and they have a look, the, the, they go through their process of
eliminating all other possible causes.
And it keeps coming back to the same theme for us, it's firearms
or something firearms related, like binary exploding targets or something
like that associated with that.
And I feel it's, you know, it's my job to To educate firearms
users on this potential.
It's just not something that I feel that, uh, um, a regular person who goes out, you
know, shooting once in a while, or, um, you know, is, is new to it, is introduced
to at the beginning stages through, um, some of the education programs that are
available there, or even passed down from, from other hunters that are out there
and hunters and, and, uh, firearms users.
So for me, it's like, this is an awesome opportunity to, to Get onto your show
here and be able to share that information and, and maybe start to, um, looking for
other opportunities to push this out.
Travis Bader: Absolutely.
So how long, because I did a little bit of research prior to this,
I'm sorry, the office did a little bit of research prior to this.
So if I didn't give you some information, I should put credit
where credit is due and, uh, Research that's coming out of the States.
It doesn't look like they've been tracking, uh, firearm caused
fires for a very long time.
It seems like a newer sort of, uh, uh, research, uh, metric
that, uh, has been showing up.
Is that the same here in Canada?
Alan Berry: Um, you know, I, I think probably in the last couple of decades,
we really started focusing in on, on every fire, not just the bigger fires,
but it, and you see the trends from the smaller one, you know, we're able to
do that, uh, analytics to say, okay, what, what's, what are we seeing that's
increasing more and the other piece for me, um, with this, and I'll go back to
the, to the smoky, the bear piece, um, you know, campfires were a huge issue
and, The public outdoor recreational users, just they endlessly, we were
going out and dealing with fires that related from the escape from open fire.
So I feel to a certain degree because we weren't investigating
them all to the finite detail.
Um, the assumption was it was either cigarettes or campfires
that started every fire.
So there's a high likelihood that this has been an issue for a while.
Um, and just the, the, the.
The level of detail of the analysis and investigations just wasn't there.
Travis Bader: Interesting.
Yeah.
It, you know, just like buckle up BC captain click says, buckle up.
You don't hear about people driving around without seatbelts anymore.
It's a sort of a given they, they buckle up campfires.
Everyone's if someone's being irresponsible with a fire.
And they've got anybody else that it's around.
You'll usually hear people piping up or other people coming in
and putting these fires out.
Cause they realize the effects that negligence can have and
how catastrophic that can be.
That education piece on the firearm side is the one that interests me.
Cause I'm going to learn a few things.
I'm sure.
Cause I've already learned a couple of things and doing some
research and some of the stuff that Kimberly's been providing over.
Um, as a firearms user who loves to shoot long range, and that's
going to be out in the bush.
And like you're saying, oftentimes a clear cut makes her a nice open area
for, uh, just to set up and shoot.
And it's lawful to do so, and check all the local regs, make
sure that you're outside of boundaries that would prohibit it.
Go ahead, go nuts.
You know, I've always been a proponent, proponent.
You bring your targets out, you shoot them, you clean them up and you go
home, but it's not hard to find some popular shooting places because.
Garbage has been left behind.
And oftentimes it's these targets that are being shot at that are the major
cause of what could cause a firearm.
So how about you school me a little bit?
What are the things I should be looking for?
If I'm going to go outside and set up a range.
Alan Berry: It's exactly what you see when you go to your local
fishing game club or range somewhere, something that's clear to vegetation.
And, uh, obviously there, there's the safety aspect of it, um, but ensuring
that what you're shooting at, um, so the, the science there through, through some
of the publications that have come out of the States is, is shooting, uh, Uh, copper
and steel jacket or steel core bullets.
The fragmentation from that, when it hits a solid object, um, they drop
on the ground, 800 degrees Celsius is what they're measuring that out.
So that will, that will start a fire if it comes in contact with something like
a moss or a light grass, or in a lot of cases for us on the coast in slash.
So that, that material that's left over after logging.
So clear that area out.
Like when you go to your local gun range, there's, you know, it's cleared
of all the, um, drive materials and stuff that could start, uh, or ignite.
And, and think of the same thing when you're out in the bush.
It's, it's no different when you're out in the wild land versus when you're there.
Um, the, so it's the ammunition, what you're shooting at, obviously, when
we're talking binary exploding targets, there's, there's a larger range associated
with that too, um, when the explosion occurs, the weather is, is one of the
major, you know, Indicators for us.
So the hottest part of the day, noon till five o'clock, six o'clock.
Um, you know, on those hot summer days, when you're walking through the forest
or, you know, the material underneath your feet, it's doing that crackling crunching,
and you can kind of tell, like you can, you can feel it that, Hey, there's,
there's a potential for a fire to occur.
Avoid those times.
Shoot in the morning.
There's a lot of times there's still do if there's good overnight recoveries.
Or after a rain, like have a look when you're are scheduling, when you're
going to be going out, if you've got an opportunity to go, even just a
little sprinkle will bring down the, the, the fine fuel moisture content to
the point where we won't have an issue with, uh, those fragments causing a
fire, just, you know, just think about it, but also just like when you're
going out and having a campfire, bring some tools in case a fire does start.
Travis Bader: So like what, what would you suggest?
Like, I like the idea of, you know, Clear your area ahead of time.
Like how hard is it to bring a rake and just kind of rake up an area?
How big of an area around would you suggest if someone's, let's
say I'm shooting at steel targets.
When I shoot at a steel target, I'm usually shooting, well, I'm always
shooting at AR 500 or targets.
They've got a Rockwell hardness or C around 50, 47 to 53.
I think Rockwell hardness, like they're hard, they're designed so
that when it hits the steel stays intact and the Essentially powderize.
And I also have them in a way that they'll deflect down.
And so I have an idea when I hit the target where it's going to hit too.
But I also know that I don't always hit my target as far as,
as much as I'd love to say I do.
I don't always.
And, um, uh, spalling and splatter can go for a bit of a distance.
How big of an area around, uh, let's say a steel target like that, would you be?
Alan Berry: Yeah, I think it really depends on what the
location is that you've picked.
Like if you're in a, in a more covered, uh, forest canopy where
it's going to be a little bit cooler potentially in there, the area doesn't
need to necessarily be as large.
It's the fragments from the bullet, having that full stop
right away and then breaking and fragmenting on the ground underneath.
That's the area that's the biggest concern.
So if you've got some slope associated with that or undulating terrain or,
and a lot of really dry material too, I would say, you You know, for us, when
we go out and we target shoot, we look for an area that there's at least, um,
At least five to 10 feet on either side of the target and front and back of it
that, uh, um, is, is free of material.
Travis Bader: You know, you mentioned slope there.
Now as a target shooter, I want to make sure I've got a good backstop.
What makes a good backstop?
Earth.
So you want to have a big slope.
And that was one of the pieces of the puzzle when you're saying that,
uh, fire is caused and firearms tend to be, what would you say?
95 percent of the time.
Alan Berry: Just the last year are the hectares burned.
So not the number of fires, like it's quite low, the number of
fires that have occurred, but they're very impactful fires.
Travis Bader: Right.
So.
And is that because of the slope, because it's got a quick heat goes up, fire burns
Alan Berry: up.
It's a, I think it's a combination of a lot of things.
One, folks just aren't prepared to be fighting a fire right away.
Cause the fire started a lot of times when you're out doing recreational
shooting, you're You're not going to be in an area where there's
a lot of people around as well.
Um, and like you said, with yourself doing some longer range shooting, like
300, 400 plus yards away from where you are, if a fire starts, you're not
going to, You're likely not going to be able to get out there right away
and be able to put that out, especially depending on the train between you
and where you put your target up.
Um, and then when I talk about slope, so the factors associated with, with
fire spread is it's around fuel and topography are, are huge indicators
as well as, uh, as the temperature.
So avoiding those hot dry parts of the day.
Slope.
Um, you get the winds that are moving uphill.
It preheats the fuels ahead of it.
With a fire does start, it spreads much quicker upslope.
Um, and it's, so I understand that, yeah, from a safety standpoint, you
want to ensure that, you know, there's no potential of, of it going, but
it also, you need to take that fire into portion into consideration.
Travis Bader: Uh, some people will take out whatever they'll take
out old barbecues I've seen out or used up propane bottles or things
that they want to hit as a target.
And, um, you know, I think that would be one of the areas that could be.
Um, a larger causer of fires.
Like if you think about Flint and steel, I remember years ago
when I learned that it wasn't the Flint that actually makes a spark.
It's a steel that makes a spark.
Flint's is hard enough to scrape a little bit of steel off.
Steel is pyrophoric.
It creates a quick oxidized layer over steel.
And so it's no longer a pyrophoric, meaning that it'll, it'll ignite on air.
Um, but when you scrape a fresh chunk off and it's small, it doesn't have the
opportunity to create that oxidized layer.
And it's the steel that actually, uh, ignites.
And so if you're shooting at a softer steel, you're doing the same sort of thing
and you're scraping little bits off and that's where you can see some sparks.
Alan Berry: Yeah.
I think having a look at a lot of the investigations that have
occurred, the common theme is, is.
Really thick steel targets.
It, now it's.
Sometimes, like you mentioned, appliances and, and it's difficult sometimes to
pinpoint exactly what they were shooting at, because as you said, a lot of times
there's a lot of debris that's left out there, but we've seen everything from
people putting binary exploding targets inside a washing machine and shooting
it and being surprised that that started a wildfire where you would think that
would be fairly common sense to, to, uh, um, you know, had a, had a conversation
with a father son combination.
They went out.
Yeah.
They were shooting at a, like a cowbell, um, from distance.
It started a fire and they were really surprised and blown away.
And they tried to get out there and respond to it.
Um, the other strange thing that they've seen through, um, some
of the investigations is the fire doesn't start right away sometimes.
Right.
It can be like a five to seven minute delay from when the really hot fragment,
Um, hits whatever it is, the combustible material and starts smoldering before
you actually see smoke coming off of it, before it actually reaches that state of
combustion, where you're going to get a flame or, or actually noticeable smoke.
So sometimes that delay is also.
Uh, factors into why these fires tend to spread.
Travis Bader: So good tip would be you're done shooting for the day.
Everything's cleared up.
You've done it in a place where you've taken these precautions.
You're not shooting at targets that in high fire time that are likely to cause
sparks or binary explosives, clean up, clean up your mess and use that time
to watch your smoke, um, see, check the area, give a good visual examination and
spend a bit of time to, um, Make sure when you leave, you're not leaving a
Alan Berry: mess.
Agreed.
Another one that we've seen a few examples of is, so once they've, once logging
companies have done harvesting and they have, I'm sure you've seen them, those
roadside accumulations where they plan on coming back at a later date to, to abate
that hazard, typically through burning.
Yep.
Um, sometimes folks put their targets on that.
Sure.
And they shoot.
And I've seen it even with paper targets in it, where they shoot,
but they hit a rock or something that's in the pile in behind it.
They can't actually put it out.
It's like, it's smoldering in there.
Well, it's smoldering in there and they realize it, but the piles are huge.
It's, it's well inside of the pile.
It's like a giant pile of pickup sticks, right?
And there's no way you're going to be able to get in there and actually
put it out and it starts a fire.
And they said, yeah, we did this.
Like, we didn't know that this is something that would
potentially lead to a wildfire.
And that's why I think it's important to educate.
Travis Bader: I mean, I guess technically they're supposed to have
fire breaks around those sort of, uh, I mean, I, I know it's sort of a
two part thing here, looking at, uh, firearms and how firearms users can be
more cautious and just at least have their head turned on and be aware to
the fact that fires can be caused.
Um, but also, um, looking at the, the holistic approach of all the other
things that are actually happening.
Contributing to fires, right?
I mean, father in law he's passed away now, but he was the, um, who
was the president or vice president of forest engineering research
industries of Canada, ferric.
And he would go on and on about forestry practices that were maximizing
profit over top of, um, over, over top of, uh, proper practices that
would be leading to forest fires.
And.
I mean, sure enough, all the things he was talking about, we're seeing coming
into place right now, but I think from a regulatory standpoint, um, being
able to administer and take care of.
Forestry companies and they're held to a certain standard, but we all play a
little bit of a part in here just because one side hasn't done the best job.
Doesn't mean the other side should be willfully ignorant about what their
actions could possibly be causing.
Alan Berry: Yeah, that's a whole other conversation around
the assessment and abatement requirements in the wildfire act.
And, and when I say, I think our public facing campaigns have been
focused on, on campfire, uh, we have a very similar approach.
Parallel.
Industry focused campaign working around the requirement to assess
fuel hazard and the bait, uh, with all of our industry partners who are
including forestry companies that are conducting harvesting activities
and other industrial activities.
So there's a lot of work that goes into that.
So don't, don't feel at all like, Hey, we're, we're.
Pardon the pun, but targeting one group here ahead of another one.
Um, yeah, we're, we're quite aware of the hazard that is on the landscape.
And, uh, um, I think the common denominator out of everybody is
we're just seeing how impactful these wildfire seasons are and everybody's
on board, uh, the conversations that I've had, the, the old concerns
about putting, um, profits ahead of, of, uh, environmental protection.
Um, I'm not, I'm not feeling those conversations.
They're, they're asking what can we do better?
Like what, from going through here, harvesting, they've got prescribed
timeframes in which they have to abate, we call it abating, but in most
cases they're burning, but they have to go out and abate their hazard and,
and, uh, um, and they adhere to it.
And a lot of times they're actually doing a much better job.
Travis Bader: I think it's just an important piece just to
bring up in the conversation.
Cause I think that's the most heated part that I've been getting
feedback prior to recording.
This is like you say.
They're targeting target shooters.
They're targeting, all they're going to do is they're going to shut it down.
And someone sent me over, I got the statistics from the U S um, and what
did Israeli say about statistics?
And he said, there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Or
Alan Berry: I thought it was, uh, um, there's a statistic for anything.
95 percent of people know that.
Travis Bader: Let's see, anchorman, that cologne is 60 percent of
the time, it works every time.
Um, he's got, um, uh, US Forest Service fire safety journal, fire program
analysis, fire occurrence database.
Of the human caused fires that could be assigned a general cause from
the source information, only 0.
2 percent were placed in the new firearms and explosive use category.
And we've got this little chart here that, that brings it up and
2%, that's, that's pretty small.
And then they break it down further and they say, Um, fires assigned
a general cause of firearms and explosive use half were given the
specific cause of military ordinance.
Maybe that's actual military out there using it, and this is in the States.
Well, 40 percent were attributed to target shooting, um, from
shooting at inert targets.
And 5 percent of that 0.
2 percent was from exploding targets or the binary targets.
And so those numbers get smaller and smaller and smaller and
people are like, Oh, Oh, it's a statistically insignificant.
And then they will watch videos put out by Tannerite, which is probably
seen those ones in the States and everyone claims no Tannerite.
It's not an exothermic reaction when it goes off, there is no heat.
It's just, it's water vapor.
Basically.
I know that to be untrue, um, based on how ANFOs and, and ANALs, uh, work.
Um, I didn't know the high percentage of, uh, forests that was affected from known
firearm fires that you were mentioning, at least in the last year of the ones
that you, uh, in that small sample survey, what would you have to say to people who
are, who are talking about, uh, binary targets and how they don't cause fires?
Or, um, why are we talking about this when vehicle borne fires
account for 13%, according to this.
And we're only 0.
2.
Like, shouldn't we be looking at other things?
What would you say to those things?
Alan Berry: I think I have to really focus on the impacts of these fires.
So, uh, I, I did mention it's nowhere near the number of a lot of the other causes.
But the impacts of these fires, specifically in the last 10 years
or so, so the Sechelt mine fire in Sechelt in 2015, um, potentially
significant impact to the community.
There's the Gustafson wildfire, uh, that, you know, Cause the evacuation orders and
alerts for the hundred mile community.
Um, and, uh, and then just in this past year that we're, we're starting to see
them more and more, um, specifically here on the coast, it is increasing.
And I feel, um, these fire seasons are, Are getting busy.
Like there's on average for the province, 50 percent of the wildfires
are natural cause 50 percent are human.
For us on the coast, it's on an average fire season, and it's
actually quite a bit higher.
We don't get as much lightning and having 80 percent of the population in the
coast region, we tend to see human caused fires be in that 60 to 70 percent range.
Okay.
So I think the past few fire seasons, what we've seen with, with the natural
cause fires, that's all lightning.
Two thirds at the top third of a mountain.
Um, typically those of us that hang out on the top thirds of the
mountain, they're not the nicest train to be wandered around in.
And a lot of times there's nothing we can do safely to, to fight those fires.
So basically what I'm trying to say is we got our hands full
just with natural cause fires.
So if I can.
even get rid of one or two human caused fires that are significantly impactful.
That's more resources to help protect communities, uh, to help protect, uh,
the environment, critical infrastructure, everything that's out there from
a lot of the natural caused fires.
And, uh, um, but more importantly, you know, our, our workforce, um,
with the BC Welfare Service and the contract community that helps us, uh,
you know, the, Wildfires are getting more, more and more dangerous for sure.
And we're starting to see that impact.
And that's one less fire that I have to worry about sending fire
crews out to, to potentially at their, at their safety risk.
Travis Bader: Yes.
Um, binary
Alan Berry: targets.
What do you think about those?
Well, I think anybody can go on the internet and see a lot of pictures
of people blowing things up and fires that are associated with them.
So I, I struggle a little bit with, uh, the, um, with the argument that
they don't cause wildfires because I think anything can cause a wildfire
if used in a proper situation.
Sure.
And when it comes to binary exploding targets, so that's, that's no different.
So I think the same message I'm passing here for when we are doing
target shooting can be applied to the use of binary exploding targets.
The only piece for that to realize is that because there's been quite
a few fires Again, known, um, to be started by binary exploding targets.
When we put on open fire prohibitions in the coastal fire center in the
summer months, we also prohibit the use of binary exploding targets as
a, as a piece of equipment to use.
So they are prohibited outside of, uh, or in the area where
our jurisdiction applies.
Travis Bader: That's what a category two fire that then encompasses binary, right?
Alan Berry: Yeah.
So there's, there's a list of, there's a list of, uh, Um, equipment and materials
that will prohibit associated with different types of open fire prohibitions.
And for category two, which is our backyard burning, that's usually
the first one that comes on.
We also prohibit, um, binary exploding targets at the same time.
But campfires wouldn't be covered.
In that one, would they?
No, campfires are that typically we wait a little bit longer to put the campfires on.
As I mentioned previously, there, you know, there's, there's a lot
involved with the campfire prohibition.
And unfortunately, if we can dispel one myth, fire season doesn't coincide
with campfire prohibition season.
Um, there's, there's a perception around that, that it's like, well,
you know, why do I have to care?
There's no campfire ban on yet.
Right.
Um, so.
But the campfire ban is typically the last prohibition that we'll put on.
And there's a variety of reasons for that.
Um, it's really tricky to enforce.
There's a lot of resources that are associated with it.
It takes a lot of time and effort to, to communicate that out to, to make sure.
And, uh, and there's a lot of ways that people can use campfires quite safely.
And, and I'd say going back to Smokey the Bear, we've We do a
pretty good job of messaging that.
The other issue I have with, with putting on a campfire prohibition is
right now you can go out to Coltis Lake, have your campfire at the
campground there and, uh, it's safe.
You know, you've got people around, there's a whole bunch of people.
When a prohibition's on, if somebody's dead set on using a
campfire, they're going to go hide it in the back area somewhere.
Likely detection.
It's not going to occur, uh, quite quickly.
And, and we rely upon the public to detect almost all of our wildfires.
We used to have the, you know, the, uh, the top of the mountain,
uh, detection locations.
Right.
But
Travis Bader: the guy is sitting out there looking for smoke all day long.
Yeah, exactly.
Alan Berry: And that makes sense if it's an area where there isn't, you know,
a thousand people driving around and, and recreating, but it's, we're seeing
more and more folks are in the back country and, Through our app and various
other means they're reporting these fires a lot of times within seconds or
minutes of them, uh, first seen smoke.
Travis Bader: How, how responsive, how quick is satellite thermal imagery?
Is that something that you have access to?
And is that something that, uh, uh, comes fairly quick
Alan Berry: for you?
I'll say it's, it's, it's an area that We're exploring, um, the products
that I've seen are much better, much better use for us in the larger fire
scenarios where we're trying to figure out fire perimeters, you know, and it's
unrealistic for us to get all around them.
Like the Donny Creek wildfire from last year, half a million hectares in size.
Satellite imagery is a really good way for us to have an
understanding of, of, um, where the main heat is associated with that.
When it comes from initial detection, um, At this stage, I haven't, uh,
I'd say I'm not quite comfortable commenting on, on the strengths
and weaknesses of that product.
Cause I just haven't seen enough of it.
Fair
Travis Bader: enough.
Yeah.
Doing a little bit of research.
Like I've known for a long time, steel's pyrophoric, I didn't realize aluminum
in small enough, uh, particles is also pyrophoric and a few other metals
out there that if you, you Good way to get into a small enough particle.
Shoot it, right?
Alan Berry: Yeah.
And that, and that's the big thing too.
It's, it's a lot of the publications that I've read, it's, it's the
particles, it's the smaller pieces.
So not the, you know, if, if we're shooting a bullet, it's
not the, the full bullet itself.
That is typically the issue.
It's when it has that significant impact and breaks up into a lot of pieces,
those little particle pieces are a lot of times are what's causing this fire.
Travis Bader: I remember I was always raised.
Oh, you got your, uh, your fire triangle.
You need three things.
And then when I was, uh, doing some volunteer stuff, the fire service
over in Washington, and, uh, they said, no, no, it's four things.
You need, you need four things.
You need fuel.
You need heat, you need oxygen and you need a chemical chain reaction.
So, uh, I thought, okay.
What do you mean, chemical chain reaction?
They said, well, you can have as much fuel as you want.
Beside as much heat as you want, beside as much oxygen as you want, but unless
they're interacting together in some way, you're not going to have a fire.
Right?
So when people are, and I thought that was kind of an interesting
little tidbit of information.
And I think about that when I'm lighting fires or if I'm shooting, or if I'm
doing different things, how do I get rid of that one piece of information?
That's able that I'm able to, because I can't get rid of the oxygen fuel.
Well, I can limit it's access to fuel, uh, heat.
Well, that's going to be a tough one for me to deal with, but the chemical
chain reaction part, I got a lot of input on that one neck and that can vary
from like you're saying, um, moving.
Clearing a space out, uh, waiting for damper weather, time of day,
or maybe just not going out and shooting at that time, right?
There's a bunch of things that I can personally do to limit
that chemical chain reaction.
Um, are you getting, are you getting any hate yet from people saying
like, are you going to ban guns?
Are you going to ban our ability to use firearms out in the bush?
Alan Berry: Yeah, that's, you know, we haven't, we haven't
really pushed this campaign out too hard outside of this, this year.
So the initial conversations I've had, that's the first reaction.
And as soon as I explained that this isn't the intent of this, this campaign
is to educate and to prevent wildfires and not to, uh, prohibit the use of them.
It's like I said, with campfire bans, if you can't enforce it,
um, there's no point in doing it.
And, uh, the use of firearms to me that that's a whole world we don't,
we don't Really need to be going down.
I think, I think there's an opportunity for us to educate and, uh, really see
significant reduction in, in these fires.
And then from there that, you know, that's the best and
easiest solution for all of us.
Travis Bader: I agree.
I honestly, when you look, especially when it comes to firearms, I mean,
our, our If you look at rules that are put in place on firearms, like, I
don't know, recent federal legislation banning certain firearms, these guns
are locked up in people's safes.
They haven't gotten the buy back in.
They've been sitting there for how long and we're seeing
crime rates going up still.
And we're seeing firearms, um, misuse going up statistically in Canada.
Yet all of these people have got their guns locked up in the safe.
It's not targeting the right area because it's not dealing with the, the
actual causes or people will ignore it.
Like someone's up to criminal intent.
They're going to go across the border.
They're going to find themselves a gun.
They're going to smuggle it across.
They're going to use it criminally trying to enact legislation or regulation
on, uh, firearms use in the bush.
I think.
From my perspective, and I might be biased, but I think
that's completely the wrong way.
And I do believe that the education piece is a hundred percent, way more effective.
Cause you're not going to stop somebody from going out and shooting in the
bush if they're intent on doing so, but you can have them make sure
they're not having a fire if they keep these little steps in place.
Alan Berry: Absolutely.
And I think for us, the advocacy amongst the firearm user group to be
able to share that information, um, it's, we're all using the Chunk of
land, as I mentioned, my family, we're three, four generations now of hunters.
We, it's a, it's an amazing, um, pastime that really dovetails
nicely with fire season.
So fire season ends and we go into a nice opportunity to reconnect with the
family, go out and do some hunting.
And, and, uh, we've got some amazing spots.
And, uh, one of them, One of the areas where we've got a cabin, a
family cabin that we go to quite frequency is quite, is a very close
to where the Sparks Lake wildfire occurred, um, in 2021 near Kamloops.
Right.
And so there's limitations now on where we can hunt in there and
how we can hunt in those areas.
And.
Again, I'm, I'm saying, Hey, like if that fire didn't happen and I'm not
saying that one was caused by wildfires or by firearms use, but you did it.
We had this
Travis Bader: conversation ahead of time.
Alan Berry: All right.
You got me.
You got it.
All right.
Go on.
Um, But, uh, um, but I, I do see, you know, I, I see the impacts of, uh,
of the pastime that we really enjoy.
And I, I think, um, especially the hunting community here and, and all the folks
that do outdoor recreation using firearms, the impact of one of these wildfires,
um, on the areas where they like to hunt.
Live and play, um, can be significant.
And there is, uh, um, the potential for a financial hit as well.
What's that look like?
So we investigate every single wildfire, as I mentioned, uh, human
caused wildfires, um, under the welfare act and regulations we have.
The ability to recoup costs for all of the fire suppression, uh, costs that
occurred, which can be significant, the damage to, uh, crown resources,
and then also lay an administrative penalty through that process.
And, and, uh, yeah, for me, I, I would be.
Devastated if myself or my, any of my friends or family were out shooting and,
uh, or even any of your listeners, like if they are out there and cause a fire,
the potential for having a significant monetary, um, penalty afterwards would
be, yeah, it's, it's, it's just an, another reason to be very cautious.
Travis Bader: You're playing for the helicopters and their fuel,
the planes, the people on the ground, the L the resources and
everything else that it gets.
Burnt, you're on the hook for potentially.
Alan Berry: Yeah.
Travis Bader: So how are these fires investigated?
Because I think that's useful information for everybody, but the arsonist, uh,
people who are, uh, people who are out there and they understand what you'd
be looking for to investigate a fire would use those as tips to be, okay,
maybe I won't set up targets like this.
Maybe I will have an area cleared.
So
Alan Berry: when, when we're doing an investigation, it's a, a twofold process.
There's the fire origin and cause investigators.
They'll go out and they, through a process of elimination, they'll
eliminate all possible causes and root it down to, this is the location where
it started and this is the cause.
And through this process, it's balance of probabilities.
So just a better than 50 percent chance that this is actually what happened.
And then we have an investigation team.
through our enforcement partners.
It can be, uh, the ministry of forests has the compliance enforcement branch.
We also team up with the ministry of environment for their conservation
officer service, help us out with our investigations or potentially the RCMP.
They all have authorities under the wildfire act and wildfire regulations,
and they can assist, and so they lead through an administrative process, um, to.
To review every single fire and the ones that we have, the crown feels that they
have a chance to be able to recoup costs.
They will pursue it.
And we do pursue them aggressively.
Travis Bader: Mm hmm.
Um, what other areas, what are the things that people know about?
I mean, are there, you know, the binary one is a new ish in Canada.
I mean, it's been around in the States for a long time and.
And it's a permissible thing for the last, what is it, like 10 or so years that,
uh, people have been, been using those.
So I think it's important that people realize that despite what some claim, uh,
binary targets are exothermic and heat is a by product of, of ammonium nitrate.
Um, Which is their base of, you use a sensitizer of some type to get it going.
Aluminum powder is typically what they find in the ones that are being sold.
But, uh, then of course that fine aluminum particulates gonna
be something that can burn too.
What are the things do they know?
Alan Berry: Well, I think, like I said, a lot of times it, it pinpoints it to
the location and what they're shooting.
But, uh, um, I think just taking the approach of using, you
know, being, being sensible.
Um, when you are shooting, um, when I say sensible, we've run
into a whole bunch of stuff.
We've run into people who didn't realize that shooting propane tanks,
um, with active propane inside had the potential to, to cause a wildfire.
Like, there's a whole variety of different things that we, we run into.
I don't, I don't really know how to narrow it down to just, you know,
You know, do what a reasonable person would do when you're, when
you're out in these environments.
And, uh, um, the other thing that we run into quite a bit in those situations
is, is, uh, they're shooting firearms and they're, they have a campfire on
the go and they're maybe shoot some fireworks off all in the same location.
Cause they feel like this is a safe spot for us to do it.
And then.
You know, something, something causes a fire.
Um, those ones are a little bit harder for us to put our finger on exactly what
the cause was, but at the same time, it's, it's that sensible piece that, uh,
I just, I can get a little, we can get pretty frustrated from a, from
a wildfire standpoint because these typically are happening long weekends.
You know, where there's a lot of people there and they can happen
two or three fires under the right conditions can happen at the same time.
So it really pushes our ability to respond.
Travis Bader: What did Mark Twain, Samuel Clemens say?
Common sense isn't that common, right?
But yeah, shooting full propane canisters, they tend not to blow up.
They tend not to light.
You got to put them on a fire first, and then the little overpressure valve will
come out and then you shoot at them, but they go flying and they'll fly everywhere.
I'm sure people have seen videos of these things and you have no
idea where these things are going.
So, um, not a good idea,
Alan Berry: but also metal, right?
So, uh, and it may not necessarily be the propane.
Itself that there's the issue, but you're shooting at a metal target.
Right.
Um, and then for us, when we're responding, we show up there, we can't
actually go fight the fire right away.
Cause we're not sure is that, you know, has it been blevied?
Is there, or do we have to wait?
So a lot of times it's just things like that.
And, and then the non vegetative component to that as well.
Um, so we, we don't attack a wildfire, the BC wildfire service doesn't with
like the self contained breathing apparatus or anything like that, like a,
um, a structural fire department would.
Right.
We have to stay, um, upwind of, uh, the non vegetative stuff.
And a lot of times that limits our ability to actually get in there and respond.
So when you, sometimes we will show up to some areas where there's a lot
of debris that's around non vegetative debris, and we can't fight the fire
right away, or we have to take different tactics and how we're going to.
Travis Bader: And you mentioned blevy, boiling liquid, expanding
vapor explosion for people who are like, what is he talking about?
And then of course, yeah, you're fighting the forest fire.
You're not, um, are you going around with a little, uh, I think
they call them piss pots, the, uh,
Alan Berry: hand tank pump or
Travis Bader: yeah,
Alan Berry: I think a few different terms for them, but we'll, we'll call
them a hand tank pump on this one.
Um, yeah, it depends on what, you know, what we need in, in most
cases for us, uh, when we're in, in.
Peak fire season, if the fire has a potential, especially in those
open fuel types, we're going to use whatever means is at our disposal.
One benefit that we have here on the coast is, is a lot of
time water is quite available.
Although we'll see what this fire season with where we're at with snowpack.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Um, so many questions.
So we different tangents, we can kind of go off on those things.
You know, I remember, uh, years ago, the Kamloops fire, uh, I'd be
in my mid twenties, I guess at the time, uh, the cabin up past Kamloops
up in the Bonaparte Lake area.
And, uh, went up there to detach the dock and take the propane canisters and float
all that stuff that couldn't hike out into, cause it was hiking or flying only
and put it into the center of the lake.
And hopefully if the fire got by there, then who had salvaged some
of this other Fire load and things like the generator and everything
else that we didn't want to burn.
And, uh, did, did all of that.
Couldn't even see across the lake because of all the smoke and in my
youth and my bright idea, I'm like, I've never seen a forest fire before.
I want to see what this looks like.
I want to see the flames.
Right.
So, um, Anyways, I hike on out, take the vehicle, drive up
until I start getting closer.
It's a bit smokier.
And then I started seeing fire crews and they're boogieing out of there and
they're telling me, you better get out.
The fire's growing.
It's coming fast.
That's not a good sign.
When the fire crews are going.
Right.
I'm like, okay, I'll just go up.
I'll just get close enough.
So I can, I just want to see the flames.
Right.
Like how fast can a fire, I know how fast fires go.
They can't go faster than my, than my What was I in?
It wasn't my wood panel station wagon.
It was, uh, I think it was my, uh, 1980 F 250 with the dual diesel tanks on it.
And, uh, can't go faster than my truck that has basically no brakes.
Um, but I didn't take into account wind shift in the fact that.
You can't see where you're trying to smoke hits.
And I remember having to open up my door and look and keep feeling to
make sure I'm still on the gravel.
And am I dipping off the side and okay, now I get it.
Now I get why they're getting out of here so quick.
Alan Berry: Yeah.
We come across the odd abandoned vehicle, in the aftermath when we go through
and that, that wasn't here before.
It was
Travis Bader: completely.
Not common sense.
It was completely preventable.
Yeah.
Please
Alan Berry: don't do that.
Right.
Travis Bader: Don't do what Donnie don't does.
Well,
Alan Berry: the, the serious side of that piece is a lot of times I, I've
worked on incident management teams on a lot of some of the larger fires
around the province over my career.
And.
Uh, safety responders is our number one priority.
Safety of the public is number two.
And, and sometimes when we're in those situations where it's, it's a tactical
evacuation, we got to get out of there.
Um, sometimes the responders will put their, their safety compromise to
make sure that the public can get out.
And it's one thing when you're under an evacuation alert and then
you've been, You know, order to get out or a tactical evacuation
is when a fire just comes through.
We don't have the ability to actually put alerts and orders in place
or work with our local government partners to put those in place.
And in those situations, um, unfortunately sometimes responders will
put their lives at risk to, to, um, ensure that the public get out safely.
So yeah, try to avoid those if we can, please.
Travis Bader: Yeah, let's work together as a team.
Alan Berry: Exactly.
Um, yeah.
What else?
If you want to see a fire, I can show you our recruiting, uh, strategy here.
I think you'd make a great, uh, fire crew member come up for a year.
You've really, uh,
Travis Bader: I've seen lots of fire sets, but yes, I, um, yeah, maybe would be, uh,
get outside, get a little bit of exercise and carry around a little, uh, jerry can.
Alan Berry: Yeah, no, I think we're, we're good.
We're always looking for opportunities to hire, uh, uh, folks, especially
with a, with an outdoor recreation background like yourself.
Travis Bader: I'd have a first hand insight on where the morale
is going to be the next year.
Um, yeah, I guess the other piece of the puzzle, which I think people
might find useful would be some of the websites that you guys have.
Alan Berry: Yeah, absolutely.
So our, this, this past year, our, our App, um, has gone over or
has received a bit of a facelift.
A lot of feedback was provided in the past few years.
And now this year it's rolled out to, if you have it on your phone already,
the BC wildfire service app, um, it you'll see that it's already got its,
it's facelift and there's a whole bunch of new options in it and it's a, it's
a wealth of information on everything from open fire prohibitions and, and.
Information on, uh, existing fires that are happening, like what's out on them.
What are we doing?
And fires in a lot of cases, uh, we're, we're in, uh, we
call it modified response.
So we're, we're watching them, but we're not actually doing any
action maybe currently, or we're just doing minor action on it.
A lot of times it's just protecting structures like your cabin on Bonaparte
Lake, maybe, you know, when we're, when we're talking 20, 30, 000 hectare fires
sometimes, um, and And minimal resources, especially the backcountry fires were
likely not going to impact communities or, or, uh, critical infrastructure.
Um, there's a ton of info that's on there and, and, uh,
it's a lot more user friendly.
I've, I've noticed, uh, BC Welfare Service folks, we go to the app.
To get the information.
Yeah, because it's, it's the most current information that's available there.
And a lot of times it's within minutes of getting it.
Travis Bader: Does it geolocate?
Like if I wanted to click and I say, let's say I'm traveling out
of town and I'm, Oh, can I have a
Alan Berry: fire here?
Click.
Absolutely.
And that's awesome.
And more importantly, if you see a fire, you actually have a report of
fire function built into the app and you can take pictures of the fire
and add it to, so it's a quick tick, bunch of tick boxes as you go through
it and sends it off right to our, uh, provincial wildfire reporting center.
Oh, that's pretty cool.
And.
And so prevention is my day job, but when I'm, uh, when we're in
peak fire season, I help out a lot in the coordination officer role.
So report or responding preparedness, responding out for crews and resources.
So when you get multiple reports that come through to be
able to see a picture of one.
So when we're allocating resources or actually reroute
the air tankers to this one.
Based off this picture, it is a thousand words for sure.
Travis Bader: No kidding.
Well, I like that geo locate function as well.
I think that's, I remember I was in a moose hunt last year and, uh, I was in
an area that was close to some fire bans and I'm like, can I have a fire here?
Can I not?
And so I'm trying to figure out like what the fire areas are.
But if that's all, if that's all available through Google earth or
however, however those things overlaid that the different fire regions overlay,
I Man, that makes my life a lot easier.
Like
Alan Berry: I said, there's been a lot of improvements to the app.
So I'm, I'm, I'm excited to, for folks to use it this year and
for us to continue to, uh, look for opportunities to improve it.
But that one stop shop, I think is a really important tool.
And then, uh, you've got a
Travis Bader: website as well, too.
Yeah.
Alan Berry: The public website, bcwildfire.
ca.
That's where you can get in a bit more information on existing.
So we've got our dashboard on all the fires.
It's very similar information to what's in the app, but there's also a lot of
really good, uh, tools for folks say that are conducting industrial activities
to go in and have an understanding of what they need to do for fire
prevention plans and stuff like that.
Um, and to just an insight into our organization, even
all the way to recruiting.
So I, any, anybody who's keen and eager to become a BC wildfire service
employee, uh, or new recruit, we always ask them to go to the website
and digest as much of it as you can.
Cause likely those are going to be the questions you're going to get.
Travis Bader: Tons of info there.
Inside tip three there, that was my thing I did in high school.
I'd be sleeping and I'd hear, this is important, or you might be asked on this.
Okay, wake up.
That's going to be on the test.
I know it.
So anybody looking to be, you know, In the BC wildfire service, look
at that website because I bet you.
There's some good, good info.
That's going to
Alan Berry: help you with your interview.
Travis Bader: That's right.
Uh, anything else we should chat about before we wrap things up?
Alan Berry: Um, no, I think, I think I've rambled on long enough here for you today.
I appreciate the opportunity to come onto your show and I Uh, um, as far as next
steps go, if there's an opportunity for us to put a link into, uh, this podcast
on, if people have more questions, where they can go to get some more answers from
myself or, um, Kimberly, who's much more intelligent, as I mentioned that I am.
Um, and, uh, you know, I'd like to be able to share that as well.
She's
Travis Bader: awesome.
Yeah.
I'm really glad that too, you were able to make it over here.
And, uh, your ferry wasn't too late, which is kind of nice.
Alan Berry: It was a rough day out there.
I got to say it kind of lulled me to sleep on the way over, but, uh,
um, it, yeah, definitely appreciate any opportunity to get out of the
office and, and, uh, um, reach out to folks and educate as much as we can.
Travis Bader: Well, I enjoy that.
And I would encourage anybody listening to this, check out the website, download
the app, use the app, makes life really, really easy and, uh, tell others that are
out in the, their similar communities.
Yeah.
Firearms account for a pretty small percentage of fires within, well, at least
in the data in the U S and in BC, but the, the effect can be pretty substantial.
And for all the people out there that are saying, Trav, why are
you talking with these people?
They're just going to limit our ability.
I personally think that education is a much better piece of the puzzle.
And the more that we're able to have these conversations within our own
communities, we can self regulate.
We're able to share this information.
Yeah.
Maybe we clear a little bit of area around our targets.
Maybe we take a look at what our backstop looks like and what that
fuel load looks like, and maybe we change up what we're shooting at and
maybe we just don't shoot in that day.
So there's, there's, there's a lot of different options
that we can kind of take.
It'll never stop the bad apples.
There's no way to prevent that, but.
Do you think that, uh, chatting about this is an important piece of the puzzle?
I 100 percent agree.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.