Christian Napier 00:12 - 00:25 Hello, everyone, and welcome to another special episode of Teamwork, A Better Way. I'm Christian Napier, your host, and I am joined by the well-traveled and even better dressed Spencer Horn. Spencer, how you doing? Spencer Horn 00:26 - 00:29 Good, I'm glad you're back. I missed you on Monday. Christian Napier 00:29 - 00:41 I'm glad you're back. I mean, we've got a lot to catch up on because you have been all over the place, including the other side of the world. So why don't you tell us about your travels recently? Spencer Horn 00:41 - 01:18 Well, yeah, last week I was in Doha, Qatar, working with a client and it was fabulous. Coming home was interesting with all the tension that's going on over there. The company I work with actually is struggling to recruit people because they're concerned about the geopolitical tension in the area, of course. As our plane took off, we flew right over Tehran, right up over just to the east of Moscow, straight up over Russia, right over the top of the North Pole down to Seattle. Spencer Horn 01:19 - 01:33 I never took that route. I was just watching the map the entire way and I'm like, this is great. I wish I could actually be on the ground in places like Tehran and Moscow. Hopefully soon the tension will end and we'll be able to do that. Christian Napier 01:34 - 01:41 I agree. I hope that we can find peace and be able to visit these beautiful places. Spencer Horn 01:41 - 01:42 Such great places. Christian Napier 01:43 - 02:19 Yeah, I worked with a gentleman, Australian, who spent time in Iran and just He was so effusive in his praise there of the people, the culture, the food. I mean, it was outstanding. And I have to say, when we're talking about people, culture, and food, we need to introduce our next guest who's joining us from Madrid, which Spain is one of the world's best places for people, culture, and food. So Spencer, I turn it over to you to do the honors. Spencer Horn 02:19 - 02:40 Absolutely. So today we have with us Christophel Snyders, and he is a master certified coach. He's a renowned expert in human behavior and transformative change, which is something we share in the space. But he's got over 30 years of experience empowering individuals and organizations to unlock their true potential. Spencer Horn 02:41 - 03:21 He's a creator of this is what we're excited to learn about today, this groundbreaking three brains intelligence theory. which integrates the head, heart, and the gut, which gut brains to foster better decision-making, deeper relationships, and sustainable leadership. This expertise that you have, Christopher, I'm so excited for you to share, but it includes Psychotherapy, clinical hypnotherapy, somatic and energy therapy, NLP, coaching, which really I imagine allows you to do so much more than just regular coaching and working with people worldwide. We were talking before, you're teaching at the Georgetown University there in Qatar. Spencer Horn 03:22 - 03:46 Your expertise is sought all around the world. You're the founder of the Three Brains Intelligence Academy. And you actually deliver internationally accredited coaching certifications and therapy and leadership training programs that are just really helping your clients create transformation for their clients. And you've trained and impacted over 12,000 people in 33 countries. Spencer Horn 03:47 - 04:15 Man, I'm a little bit behind you. I'm only at 26. But working with clients such as Woodside, TechNip, Sub-C7, Islamic Development Bank, and Inspire, And it looks like, I mean, you're working all over Europe, Middle East, Asia, Australia, and you're the author, for our listeners, of Relationships, Which Brain is Talking, How Men and Women Fit. That's a pretty hot topic, I imagine, right? Christoffel Sneijders 04:17 - 04:17 Yes. Spencer Horn 04:18 - 04:23 And so welcome, Christofel. So glad to have you. Christoffel Sneijders 04:24 - 04:49 So I'm extremely honored to be here because I followed you guys, your podcast, and I know you have deep discussions, a lot of knowledge to bring, a lot of experience to bring. So it feels always honored to be with people who also know the world and have traveled the world. And not only say from one side, but also from the other side. And not only from the outside and the glamor, but also from the inside, how does it feel? Christoffel Sneijders 04:49 - 04:52 So I'm really happy to be here. Spencer Horn 04:52 - 05:11 We're so happy you're here. We love a worldwide perspective. We never want to be parochial, because our audience is worldwide. And everything we do everywhere impacts everyone else, even if we are not always aware of those impacts. Spencer Horn 05:11 - 05:28 You know, in leadership for the last, I don't know, 30, 40 years, emotional intelligence has been really the thing that leadership focused on, but you believe that's no longer enough. Is that right? No. Yeah, absolutely. Christoffel Sneijders 05:29 - 05:32 I put on my glasses or something because I think you both have glasses. Spencer Horn 05:32 - 05:39 Let's also put on our glasses. We're going to highlight you when you talk. So yeah, tell us what you think about why it's no longer enough. Christian Napier 05:42 - 05:47 Spencer cut off there at the end, so go ahead. Spencer Horn 05:47 - 05:51 I said, yeah, tell us why that's no longer enough. We're going to highlight you as you talk. We'll put you up by yourself. Christoffel Sneijders 05:52 - 06:07 It is very easy. How many times did you not say to yourself, Spencer or Christian, you know, I like to change, but I don't feel like it today. My heart is not in it. My gut is not in it. Christoffel Sneijders 06:07 - 06:24 It doesn't make sense. And we all know those sentences. And what neuroscience actually came aware of already 30, 40 years ago, we have actually a real brain in our guts. That's now popular about the gut bacteria, but really, there's 500 million brain cells. Christoffel Sneijders 06:25 - 06:42 And the heart, they came over here, have 100,000 brain cells. And they can remember, they can make independent decisions. And it also actually is the case, they have different kinds of strategies slash objectives. And for everybody who thinks, yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds nice. Christoffel Sneijders 06:43 - 07:00 There's one little test you can do and come over here, I'm always right. Just imagine, in the morning you make a shopping list for yourself what you're going to eat. And you like to be healthy, so you write down all the healthy stuff from carrots to salads to other kinds of things. You're not allowed to have breakfast. Christoffel Sneijders 07:01 - 07:12 You're not allowed to have snacks. You're not allowed to have lunch. And just before dinner, when you're really hungry, you go to the shopping mall to do your shopping. What's the chance you buy what's on that list? Christoffel Sneijders 07:13 - 07:26 And what is the chance you buy extra stuff that you just find on that moment yummy? Up to now, I never met somebody who says, I will keep myself to the list. And why is that? Because in that moment, actually, you're hungry. Christoffel Sneijders 07:27 - 07:40 It overrides your logical brain. And where it's coming from, your gut brain is actually saying, I'm now in a shortage of energy. I need something for direct energy. And I don't care what you wrote down on your list, if it's healthy or not, I need it now. Christoffel Sneijders 07:42 - 08:11 And you see even lots of people who do this test, actually in the shop already taking little snack and almost opening before the counter. So, and if you transform that idea to now leadership what we love, It makes so much sense that a lot of leaders actually do it already without knowing it. The president of America always says, I follow my gut feeling. Other leaders say, no, no, no, we really have to make all the boxes tick before we make a decision. Christoffel Sneijders 08:13 - 08:32 And Stephen Brandon. from Virgin says, actually, I follow my heart and my passion. You hear already three different kinds of leaders who actually think about and work about different kinds of actions. Now, from that perspective, it means you have to do something else. Christoffel Sneijders 08:32 - 08:49 Knowing that there are real three brains, it means if we know it, we know how to train it or retrain it, we can actually have much more rounded leadership. I just want to make sure... I didn't know I had any brains. I thought I had no brains. Christoffel Sneijders 08:49 - 08:51 Now you're telling me I have three brains? Spencer Horn 08:53 - 08:58 I want to make sure I heard you. Did you say we have brain cells in our heart and in our gut? Christoffel Sneijders 08:59 - 09:04 Yes, I cannot do science... Christian, did you know that, that we actually have brain cells? I have no clue. Christian Napier 09:05 - 09:09 Yeah, I think a disproportionate amount of my brain cells are in my gut. Spencer Horn 09:09 - 09:14 Well, I hope they're not in another part of my body that you know. Christoffel Sneijders 09:14 - 09:44 Okay. Neurobiologist, a cardiologist, Andre Amour, who in the beginning of the 90s, did all his research, he came aware, hey, I see something outside the heart, what is that? And when he got the equipment to measure it, he came aware there are really brain cells like we have here. So neurons with dendritic axons connected with each other, gray matter, white matter, glia, and he called it the little brain on the heart. Christoffel Sneijders 09:45 - 09:53 It's only 100,000 brain cells, but their objective is less. Guys, when you feel love, where do you feel it? Spencer Horn 09:54 - 09:57 We say in our heart, I mean, I feel it in my heart. Yeah. Christoffel Sneijders 09:58 - 10:03 You feel it in your heart. Why do you feel it in your heart? Because oxytocin, you know what oxytocin is? Yes. Spencer Horn 10:04 - 10:15 That's the feeling of love and connection. It's, it's the hormone that helps us to, women, when they give birth, it washes over them and they just, the connection they have with that baby is so strong. Christoffel Sneijders 10:16 - 10:18 Beautifully said. Where's it produced? Spencer Horn 10:20 - 10:24 I imagine in the brain. But you're telling, yeah. Christoffel Sneijders 10:25 - 10:35 Brain, plural, it is also synthesized at the valves of the heart. The heart can synthesize, hence produce and release oxytocin. Spencer Horn 10:36 - 11:10 So I am so excited to talk about this, Christoffel, because, I mean, I have, you talk so much about harmony between these three brains, and we'll get to that, but Christian, you know where I'm going, in our upbringing, we've talked about the connection of head and heart and the powerful combination that that makes. Now we're hearing that we have the combination of head and heart and gut, And I'm just so curious what happens. Well, let's, let's talk about, let's talk about the pain first. Spencer Horn 11:10 - 11:14 Okay. What happens to a leader when their head, heart, and gut are not aligned? Christoffel Sneijders 11:15 - 11:39 In three different things, let's one step back, the objective or the strategy of the gut is where's our immune system in our gut. It's all about survival. When you look at the most primitive organisms on this world, and even now, if you would go into the sea and look at the sea cucumber, it's actually a digestive system. It does not have a heart, it does not have a head. Christoffel Sneijders 11:40 - 11:53 But it can survive, it can reproduce, it can find food, it can fight off its enemies. Your gut is only about survival. That means I win or I lose, I eat or I don't eat. That's actually the whole function of your gut and how it makes decisions. Christoffel Sneijders 11:55 - 12:10 When we are born, we're totally helpless. We're like a joey, you know, the little kangaroos in Australia. So if our caregivers, our parents don't take care of us, we die. Hence, bonding is our biggest survival need as human beings. Christoffel Sneijders 12:11 - 12:24 Hence, we have a heart and that's for most mammals in this world. So the heart is all about connection. The head is all about logic. The only part that knows tomorrow and yesterday is the head. Christoffel Sneijders 12:25 - 12:43 And if you think, how do you mean? Now, ask your dog or ask a kid of three years old and say to it, next week we're going to the zoo. They're already having the shoes on because they don't know the concept of time. Only your head knows concept of time after you're seven years old or young. Christoffel Sneijders 12:44 - 13:06 Now, bringing back to leaders, what happens if it's not aligned? If they only follow their head, it becomes almost like an Excel sheet robot leader. And I think there is a company and it's really famous and we look at it and it was former called Twitter, I think. And you look at that leader is extremely logical on all his decisions. Christoffel Sneijders 13:06 - 13:22 Not only, but it means he makes decisions almost like an Excel sheet. Pro, con, needed, don't need it, puff, puff, puff, in, out. Based on his success, I'm not going to argue it's not useful. But if you don't use it, you can see what happens when he bought it. Christoffel Sneijders 13:23 - 13:40 He releases people from their job just by a tweet. So there is no heart in his decisions. So people who work for him don't do it from their passion for the leadership. They don't follow him based on passion. Christoffel Sneijders 13:42 - 14:00 So when there's a lack of heart, you don't follow people for the passion. When there's a lack of gut, if there's a lack of gut, it means they don't dare to make the risky decisions. They don't bite the bullet. When your gut is in there, it's about, I need to win, otherwise I don't eat. Christoffel Sneijders 14:00 - 14:05 So it means sometimes a bold decision has to be taken, although you don't know for sure the outcome will be successful. Spencer Horn 14:05 - 14:29 That bold decision to buy the candy bar in that moment, So let me back up. So I have a client that brought me in, a really challenging manager that they had. Same thing, very head-oriented, but he was all about getting stuff done. So he was receiving feedback, HR complaints from his people that he was a bully. Spencer Horn 14:29 - 14:41 All of his peers wanted him fired because he's like, he never took the time to connect. You talk about connection from the heart was all about the head. Yeah, but I'm good at getting things done. And he was for 17, 18 years. Spencer Horn 14:42 - 15:11 But as they promoted him, the challenges throughout the organization were just exacerbated because you can have this high productive, but low positive, low relationship. culture and you cannot sustain that. That's when people, as you said, no passion and they start leaving the organization because there's no connection. It's interesting, not only the mission but to the people they work with because as you know, people stay because of people. Spencer Horn 15:11 - 15:15 They leave because of people as well. Is that what you're saying? Christoffel Sneijders 15:15 - 15:30 Yeah, absolutely. As I said, I had hard gut leadership. Our beautiful head most times is the advisory board of the heart and the gut. So when the heart feels sad or feels passionate, it starts thinking strategies to achieve it. Christoffel Sneijders 15:31 - 15:49 When the gut is, say, anxious or likes to win, it also asks the head to give me strategies to achieve it. So you see most times combination, the head is active. When you describe your leader, pitifully there are too many of those, in my opinion. getting success and they're smart, so they know how to get their ways done. Christoffel Sneijders 15:51 - 16:02 Short-term, three-monthly success is there. Long-term success, you'd say, if you look at their retention rate, is high. It's not sustainable. So, if they don't leave in three years, they have an issue. Christoffel Sneijders 16:02 - 16:16 Those leaders, you see a lot of times, jump within three years. Otherwise, they get bitten in the back by all their damage they do. Yeah. So that makes sense. Christoffel Sneijders 16:16 - 16:37 And the funny part is why it's so important to know when you know what they do, your three brains, it's for a lot of leaders annoying to talk to me. Do you know why? Just imagine, I say to a leader, you know, you have two legs, would it make sense to walk on one? Do I pay you a shitload of money for this Chris, for this stupid question? Christoffel Sneijders 16:37 - 16:42 Of course not. I said, great. You have three brains, you only use two. How smart is that? Christoffel Sneijders 16:45 - 16:51 At that moment, I get silent, they look at me and think, I don't like you anymore, Chris. Christian Napier 16:51 - 17:49 I'm curious, we're talking a lot about leaders here and we'll continue focusing on that. But I'm just, I'm curious, the population in general, is it more the norm that people have one or two, brains that are dominant, or how exceptional is it for people to find a real balance between these three systems? Because it seems to me that perhaps having that balance may be more of the exception than the rule, but I don't know for sure. So I'm curious, in the work that you've done, the research that you've done, When we look at the population as a whole, generally speaking, how many of us are in balance and how many of us are out of balance and we need to do some work? Christoffel Sneijders 17:50 - 18:06 It's a great question. I have a test on my website where there's a short test to test what's your three brains dominance. And I test there say the system one of Daniel Kahneman, thinking fast and slow. How do you make decisions when you don't wait five or 10 minutes? Christoffel Sneijders 18:07 - 18:37 And from that, I have now four and a half thousand people tested from leaders to coaches to students and everything in between. And I have to say, what you see the most is that there's a two brain say dominance, that two brains are more dominant on one I say now lacking behind. Three brains that I say somewhere balanced out is less than five or 10%. And of course, people say, oh, I should get three brains balance. Christoffel Sneijders 18:38 - 18:55 It makes most sense because they are much more flexible in jumping into what we called already 30 years ago, situational leadership. I think we all know this word, situational leadership. I think we all got used to that in the 60s or 70s. Then you talk task or relationship oriented. Christoffel Sneijders 18:55 - 19:15 It means you have to jump between the task and the relationship. That means you need to jump between the gut and the heart and also logical making the decisions. It means you have to be really flexible in your three brains. when only 10% really has that balance scores, it means they jump in between without thinking of it. Christoffel Sneijders 19:16 - 19:31 I have actually two brain dominance to be true. I have an heart and gut brain dominance in my system one thinking. So I have to pause down to let the logic come in. So I can be extremely quick in my responding, extremely quick in my decision-making. Christoffel Sneijders 19:31 - 19:41 And I find myself a lot of times thinking I should have thought about it before I jumped. I should have asked, where's actually the parachute guys? And so. Spencer Horn 19:52 - 19:55 Are you saying you jump without the parachute? Christian Napier 19:58 - 20:01 Just like Spencer pushing the button without any warning. Spencer Horn 20:02 - 20:38 But Christophel, you've got this, you know, I find that in my experience, The gut is actually, I mean, sometimes it's no less accurate or what I call intuition than the fact brain. I mean, there's, because so much of our experiences are recorded in our brains, our guts, right? I mean, our body records our past experiences. And so what in my experience I find is that those who rely on that intuition, that gut, make decisions faster. Spencer Horn 20:38 - 20:46 But it's not necessarily less accurate than those that slow down and take the time to think about it. Is that your experience or is that just… Christoffel Sneijders 20:46 - 21:10 It is true, there's research done, especially when say also in high impact kind of jobs like firefighters or policemen, they don't think about, they don't think two minutes, is this safe or not safe, I'm standing now with my hose and a fire. Because they will burn to ashes. So their experience is really internalized in them. It's recorded internally. Christoffel Sneijders 21:11 - 21:30 So it's not only what they hear, smell, but exactly what the energy system says to them. They make decisions. If you like to make a cause and effect decision, so what does it mean for me next week, then you need this one here. Like if I'm going to the shopping mall and I'm hungry, then getting the snack will not kill me right away. Christoffel Sneijders 21:31 - 21:52 But if I do it every day, there will be say a change in my body shape. Because the heart and the gut don't think about what's the consequence next week. It thinks what's the consequence now. So your heart decisions or gut decisions can be amazing when the decision has to have a decision made now and the consequence is now. Christoffel Sneijders 21:53 - 22:03 When the consequence is next week, the heart is not always the best in making that decision because it does not have the prediction for next week. Spencer Horn 22:03 - 22:05 I love that. I love that. Christoffel Sneijders 22:05 - 22:28 So if you bring it back to leadership, that's why we need those three systems because you cannot only rely on what's good now. Sometimes you also have to rely on what is good next week or next month. What's the impact of my decision now? Because we all know When say, when you really have to make a decision in business about what is now urgent, there's a call that's happening. Christoffel Sneijders 22:28 - 22:41 Okay, we now have to make a decision left or right. Are we going to buy, not buy? Hey, we're in a negotiation, are we going to do it or not do it? Then you cannot say, okay, let's wait three months to make the decision, yes or no. Christoffel Sneijders 22:41 - 22:50 If you're in a sales position, you cannot wait three months to make a decision, do I give a discount or not? Then you have to rely on other kinds of parts of your brains or intuition what you say. Spencer Horn 22:51 - 23:06 Yeah. My mentor, Kelvin Christian, remember him? He called this anticipatory management. And when I work with teams, we call this proactive, the ability to be proactive as a productivity measure. Spencer Horn 23:06 - 23:21 We actually measure Is the system, which is interesting, we're actually talking about an individual system. I work with team systems as well. Is the system who are made up of individual leaders being proactive? How is the system aligned? Spencer Horn 23:21 - 23:40 This is so fascinating to me. So the question I have is you are saying, and you actually have the same number that I say, only 10% of teams are high performing. And you've talked about the fact that in your research, only about 10% of leaders have their three brains aligned. Is there a correlation? Christoffel Sneijders 23:41 - 23:49 And I did not research it. So it's not based on research. But I would say right away, yes. Because if you look at most teams, you're using your gut like I would. Christoffel Sneijders 23:49 - 24:22 It's got but also say all my experience and all the things I've seen. If you look, say at how teams are organized, and I think we both we all three know that they're not organized based on that makes the most balanced team. If you look at sports, I love sports, we have strikers, we have defenders, we have midfielders, we have goalie, and they're really trained and selected for that job. When you look at teams, people are promoted for what kind of reasons? Christoffel Sneijders 24:23 - 24:26 Tell me what kind of objective reasons people are promoted. Spencer Horn 24:26 - 24:28 Usually good individual performance. Christoffel Sneijders 24:29 - 24:35 Yes, but they're checked on what they did in the past, not what they will deliver in the future. Spencer Horn 24:36 - 24:36 Right. Christoffel Sneijders 24:39 - 24:40 I'm almost stuttering about it. Spencer Horn 24:40 - 24:52 I just had this conversation with the CEO yesterday, Chris. He's like, I have a problem. We promoted the people who did the best yesterday, and they're not doing great leading the people of tomorrow. Christoffel Sneijders 24:54 - 25:05 As Meatloaf said, you took the words right out of my mouth. Right. But yes, you're right. So if you look in companies, they select the people from yesterday for tomorrow. Christoffel Sneijders 25:06 - 25:25 So you have weak performing teams. And if you don't have a team, There was a book written from good to great and they say, first select the people and then select how you put them in the bus. And nowadays, we don't look at that anymore. Spencer Horn 25:25 - 25:37 No, we're spending too much on strengths. We're looking at strengths and then, oh my gosh, I never hear anybody else say that. So you're the first person I've heard that is saying that. I love that. Spencer Horn 25:39 - 25:43 Christian, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so grandstanding here. Christian, ask. Christoffel Sneijders 25:43 - 25:45 Christian, let me put you out of the talk. Christian Napier 25:46 - 26:11 No, no, no. I love listening to this conversation. It really makes me think deeply. And one of the questions that's come up in my mind as we're talking here is, OK, we understand that a very large majority of us have dominant brains, maybe one out of three or two out of three. Christian Napier 26:11 - 26:45 So they're not necessarily in complete alignment. And I'm curious if the strategy then is, one, to acknowledge, to basically diagnose and acknowledge, OK, this is These are my dominant brains. But is it possible to actually raise the level of the submissive brain, for lack of a better term? It's probably not right. Christian Napier 26:45 - 27:24 Or will they always be dominant and submissive and I just have like Strategies to to cope with that. I mean it sounds to me from your like firefighter example. I'm curious if the firefighter is more innately wired for a more dominant gut brain or if that actually Changes through training like somebody wants to be a firefighter and they actually are more logical but then through all of their training experience they become More intuitive and can rely on their gut. Christoffel Sneijders 27:24 - 27:42 I don't know if that question makes any sense to you It is an amazing sentence actually and to split it up. Yes, we can change Why is that because we have brain plasticity? Yeah, that's what he told a long time ago. Our brain can actually change and grow. Christoffel Sneijders 27:42 - 27:55 They did the research with the taxi drivers in London in the old days before we had say Google Maps and Waze and other kind of things and they came aware where your part in the brain where you really have to Spencer Horn 27:55 - 27:56 Hippocampus. Christoffel Sneijders 27:57 - 28:08 Yeah, the hippocampus. And they showed it grows based on remembering all the streets of London. Your three brains can be trained just like a muscle. What fires together, wires together. Christoffel Sneijders 28:08 - 28:21 Law of Hab. So we can do it. And what we also know, when you have a talent and when you like something and you love it, you train it more. Arnold Schwarzenegger was not born as Mr. Universe in his days. Christoffel Sneijders 28:21 - 28:31 He trained eight hours a day for that. So if you train, you can change it. Knowing when I did my first test by myself, and I thought I was beautifully aligned. I was amazing. Christoffel Sneijders 28:31 - 28:44 So the score back and we're sitting for my own mirror. Maybe I should change the test so I can have a better score. And that's actually a gut brain response. The gut brain likes to win. Christoffel Sneijders 28:44 - 29:00 So if it doesn't win, then okay, how can we cheat? Learn from this. So what I decided, I still love my spontaneity. But also when I make decisions that I say a little bit more need to have a little bit more consequence. Christoffel Sneijders 29:00 - 29:15 I train actually this one upstairs, I pause and let actually really consciously go upstairs and say, okay, what does not make sense? Say, I'm thinking about this tomorrow or next week, would I still do the chair? What is the consequence of it? Would I still make this decision? Christoffel Sneijders 29:16 - 29:27 So I'm training this one to step in. I monitored myself over the years and I see a change. I'm actually getting more aligned. I'm still not aligned, but I'm getting more there. Christoffel Sneijders 29:27 - 29:32 I think, oh wow. It's working. So like a little child, I'm happy, okay, it's working. So we can do that. Christoffel Sneijders 29:33 - 30:02 But of course, if you're working as a firefighter, eight hours a day as a firefighter, we can work out which brains are you training, not your logical pause brain when you're in a fire. And so you can change it. And you can see it also in students. And when they enter and study, and when they finish a study, there's a change in the brains based on what they study and how they have to be more and more conscious of more and more spontaneous of more and more whatever. Christoffel Sneijders 30:03 - 30:18 And so, yes, we can change it. And what you say, the first thing that is so great, you said, we have to diagnose and analyze and create an awareness. Where are we actually? And then not like me, the first response, OK, how can I achieve this, but really take the consequences, how can I train myself? Christoffel Sneijders 30:21 - 30:21 But then, of course, Spencer Horn 30:34 - 30:43 So it's already catchy, but that- Keep going, keep going. Yeah. So you talk about training yourself. You actually said the brain is a muscle, so you're creating a muscle memory. Spencer Horn 30:43 - 30:59 Just like in sports, when you are training an action that you have to repeat, you can train that. I actually do an exercise, Christoffel, where I have people sign their name. Just sign your name. Now sign it with your non-dominant hand. Spencer Horn 30:59 - 31:03 And they're like, oh, it's so hard. And I go. Could you do it? And they say, yes. Spencer Horn 31:03 - 31:12 I said, if you practiced with your non-dominant hand, would you get better? Would it get easier? Would it take less focus? And of course, the answer is yes. Spencer Horn 31:12 - 31:44 Now, it will never be as good as maybe your dominant hand, but you can create that muscle memory. And I work with the military here in the United States. And what you were talking about earlier, they find the best people, and then they force them into a system. And they may have a personality that is supportive and collaborative, but then they force them into this type of profile and they create muscle memory for this new system that they want them to behave as in the military. Spencer Horn 31:44 - 31:54 And they practice, they practice, they practice, and they have a system to develop that. So I love that you're reinforcing that that's possible. Christoffel Sneijders 31:54 - 32:07 And it is possible. But just imagine, I live in Spain. And when it came to Spain, my Spanish was now nada, as they say in Spain. How do you learn? Christoffel Sneijders 32:07 - 32:17 You learn, so okay, you learn in words. And the first time you hear that word, it just drops out. And how do we learn it by repetition? Okay, nada means nothing, nada means nothing, nada means nothing. Christoffel Sneijders 32:17 - 32:37 In one moment, what you do is actually training, firing and with fires together, wires together. Now that happens here with learning words, but also happens say in decision-making. It also happens between your three brains because what we did not tell and it is now known and not known. And the cranial 10 nerve, that's a cranial nerve here. Christoffel Sneijders 32:37 - 32:51 We have 12 in our head. The cranial 10 is unique. It's also called the dorsal-vagal nerve, the ventral-vagal nerve that goes from your cranial to your throat. to your lungs, to your heart, through your abdomen, into your intestine. Christoffel Sneijders 32:51 - 33:27 And it's actually the pathway between the three brains because they actually are connecting with all of them and also to your throat, so to your larynx muscles here. So it's actually the connector and they came aware that by activating it, by working on it, you communicate and the beauty is of that nerve, 90% of the nerve cells or communication goes up. They call it afferent nerves and only 10% go down. Based on that conclusion, it also makes sense that you're in the world of talking and leadership. Christoffel Sneijders 33:27 - 33:33 What happens when somebody gets nervous with their voice? It changes. Spencer Horn 33:33 - 33:35 Yeah, gets higher pitch. Christoffel Sneijders 33:36 - 34:04 Do they want that they change their voice? No. but the gut is from communicating or the heart is accumulating from up, from, hey, I feel nervous now, this could cost my career, gut, fear, or my heart, or maybe I get rejected, they don't like me anymore. And based on that communication upwards, it goes through the throat, the larynx nerve, so it changes actually your voice, and it comes into your head, and then we make sense of it. Christoffel Sneijders 34:05 - 34:12 So even in our voice, we can come aware, hey, what's happening actually with the person? Which brain on this moment is talking? Christian Napier 34:19 - 35:04 I just want to marinate with the ramifications of this, because it's pretty profound. One of the questions that I've got for you, Christoffel, as we're kind of surfing through all of this knowledge is, You mentioned, okay, Arnold Swartzen, with that analogy, or a high performing athlete, and they train for hours and hours a day. And I'm wondering, we might say, well, at work, you don't have the opportunity to do that, but... If you look at the firefighter occupation, that's what they're doing. Christian Napier 35:05 - 35:07 By doing the work, they're actually training their things. Spencer Horn 35:07 - 35:09 Military the same. Christian Napier 35:09 - 35:35 The military the same. So I'm curious from a knowledge worker perspective, for example. We give people different roles and responsibilities and so on and so forth. How do we optimize the tasks that we give people so that they are actually working these muscles that they should be working. Christian Napier 35:35 - 36:18 It makes me think like, okay, like you mentioned, we typically organize our day around tasks, and I need to do this, that, and the other, and that could be logical brain thinking, I've got my tasks organized, so on and so forth. But I'm curious, how do we ensure that we are injecting the right kinds of activities in our everyday work schedule to optimize this entire system so that it all works together, instead of emphasizing one thing or another? What kind of insights do you have over the decades of work that you've done with the leaders of organizations? Christoffel Sneijders 36:19 - 36:21 You have amazing questions. Let's start with that. Spencer Horn 36:21 - 36:27 Always, Christian always have, that's why I can't do the show without him because he's got the brain. Christoffel Sneijders 36:29 - 36:51 But just imagine when you talk about firefighters or you talk about the military, they get constant feedback on what they're doing. There's a constant feedback loop. You work with leaders. How much time in the week do they take to reflect on what they did and sit down and say, I just had a meeting with ABC and the objective was task, was relationship, was action. Christoffel Sneijders 36:53 - 36:57 What did I really do? How did I step into that? What did I do good? What could I improve? Christoffel Sneijders 36:57 - 37:07 How much time weekly do they take for that? Retrospective. Zero, because they don't see it as work. They see it as a waste of time. Christoffel Sneijders 37:08 - 37:30 And because there is nobody next to them who gives them right away feedback, and if you talk to an employee, the employee is not saying, hey, Christian, we just had a talk about how you motivate me, but actually I don't feel motivated now. The employee is not going to tell it to you, Christian, because he knows that's a bad career move. So it keeps his mouth shut. So the feedback loop for managers and leaders is almost not. Christoffel Sneijders 37:32 - 37:59 and they don't do the reflection, so they're just walking with their eyes closed, tunneling through, getting promoted based on the work that they did yesterday for tomorrow, what you just said. So if you like to bring it in, and the leaders I coach or work with who are the most successful, have an automatic reflection mode. So after a meeting, they have something like, hey, what happened there? What did I do good? Christoffel Sneijders 37:59 - 38:15 What should I do better? And if not, they sit down for it, but almost when they walk to the coffee machine or something else, it's almost like an instant feedback loop. And when I talk to them, say, yeah, Chris, but isn't that, really, isn't that normal? I said, no, for you, it's normal. Christoffel Sneijders 38:15 - 38:24 Ask five or employees or your colleagues, even in the same level, if they do this. And they come back the next time and said, Chris, almost nobody does it. Spencer Horn 38:25 - 38:46 This is so important. We need to emphasize this for our listeners because most leaders, as you pointed out, are interested in productivity efficiency. The focus is efficiency. And so if you look at what we call the Eisenhower matrix, the four quadrants of time management, we're mostly in quadrant one, which is urgent and important. Spencer Horn 38:46 - 39:33 Basically, we're firefighting, which leads to burnout, which I want you to talk about, right, that leads to we're burned out, where you're suggesting in the retrospective is quadrant two, which is important but not urgent. And so we sacrifice so often training, we so often sacrifice the retrospective, the time that we need to say, how did I do to self-evaluate, because we believe, many leaders believe, that's not being productive. But we have a saying here in the United States, go slow to go fast. And what I'm hearing you say, Christoffel, is when you slow down, you're actually more productive, which seems so counterintuitive. Spencer Horn 39:33 - 40:00 Can you frame this argument? Because so many leaders are experiencing burnout, which means their capability to be efficient and productive is not sustainable, which is what we're talking about. How can we prevent from, you know, I guess the question is how do high achievers burn out even when they seem already emotionally intelligent and how can they prevent that? Christoffel Sneijders 40:01 - 40:25 The research I did, let's say the research I did besides my own gut feeling, heart feeling, people get burned out when they actually have a higher score in the heart brain. So they feel committed to their job, to their task, to the company, to the people. So they run more than actually only is in their own task. I was working with somebody who said, Chris, I cannot leave my team behind. Christoffel Sneijders 40:25 - 40:47 And those people burn out, the people who say, It's about me, they don't burn out. Look at people who burn out, they always have a social capacity in them. They have an emotional intelligence. People who say, I really got brain head, brain different, almost never burn out because gut brain takes care of yourself. Christoffel Sneijders 40:47 - 40:57 That's your immune system. I was just talking today to my son. He has two little kids from three years old and one years old. One has say, um, belly flu. Christoffel Sneijders 40:57 - 41:09 So I said, I did not sleep this week. So good. He looks, he looks really horrible. So this is an heartbrain person. Christoffel Sneijders 41:09 - 41:22 But this is in personal life what a lot of people do in business life. They sacrifice themselves for the bigger good. That's when you get a burnout. If you don't sacrifice for your bigger good, then you don't get a burnout. Christoffel Sneijders 41:22 - 41:37 Then you say, you know, it's not my task. Those are the people who say to people, you know, team, Christmas is not happening this year. We have to work on, we have to go on. doesn't ask the question, gives the command because he doesn't care or she doesn't care. Christoffel Sneijders 41:38 - 42:13 The team there will get burned out because they like to be at Christmas at home and have their Christmas turkey and all this kind of stuff. So burnout is, and Gabor Matej wrote a beautiful book about it already 20, 30 years ago, when the body says no. And in his research shows all the people who care too much sometimes from a traumatic event in the past, they get, say, sick. If you don't care, it's a bold statement, you almost don't get sick in that part. Christoffel Sneijders 42:14 - 42:23 Because your gut brain takes over and says, where's your immune system located? In your gut brain. So if your gut brain is taking action and makes a decision, it takes care of yourself. Spencer Horn 42:23 - 42:28 We have a saying in the United States. It's called compassion fatigue. Christoffel Sneijders 42:29 - 42:58 Yes, so you can almost when you walk through a company and when I do the testing people when I work in a company and let them do the short test then and I see say the scores and I see the high heart brain scores And I asked him in the team, I said, only the high heart brain scores. How many of you had somewhere the feeling that they are running through burnout? And 80% of the heart brain dominant raised their hand. Christoffel Sneijders 42:59 - 43:10 Heart brain dominant said, how many of you? And they look and say, no, no, no, we can deal with it. There's no issue. And they always say, I can take care of myself. Christoffel Sneijders 43:13 - 43:21 And it makes a huge difference. And I say, hey, dear heartbrain people, do you hear this? Yeah. How much can you take care of yourself? Christoffel Sneijders 43:22 - 43:30 And they also, yeah, but we cannot leave the team behind. It's teamwork, teamwork, a better way. Makes sense, Christian, doesn't it? Christian Napier 43:33 - 44:10 It does. OK, I've got one more question for you before we get to Spencer's lightning round. So I heard you say that as leaders, oftentimes we don't pause to reflect and ask ourselves questions. Probably we're not getting a lot of feedback from other people aside from the mandated quarterly and annually performance review processes that HR is telling us that we need to do. Christian Napier 44:10 - 45:06 And so I'm curious about some pragmatic things, a practical thing that people can do now. One thing that came to my mind, I'm seeing this more in my own work, where if there's an hour meeting, they schedule the meeting for 50 minutes, and that leaves 10 minutes either for task switching or for some reflection, right? So I was thinking just as a leader, what I could do is make sure that I build in points in my day for focus time, make sure that I, and I'm not good at this, this is something that I'm thinking, oh, I need to do this to be better, is instead of scheduling meetings back to back to back, which is what I have now, sometimes overlapping meetings, make sure that my meetings, I leave time in between there so I have some time for reflection. Christian Napier 45:06 - 45:21 So I'm just curious, that's a long way to ask a question. What's one or two practical tips that you could give people as a leave behind right now who are listening or watching this podcast? Christoffel Sneijders 45:21 - 45:33 What you said is gold. When you schedule for one hour, you have 15 minutes meeting actually. That reflection time is needed. And that is before the meeting. Christoffel Sneijders 45:33 - 45:43 And then there's a second thing, when you go into a meeting with somebody and start thinking, what's the objective of this meeting? We can still be efficiency and effective. What's the task of this meeting? Should we go for task? Christoffel Sneijders 45:43 - 45:54 Situational leadership. Should we go for a task to relationship? Should we go to a strategic thought process? And from there to think, then which of my three brains should actually be active? Christoffel Sneijders 45:54 - 46:17 All three of them you probably ask, okay, which one is my, say, the one that probably will fall out of the bandwagon when we step into action? Okay, so let's focus on that one to bring it in at least. So I ask already up front, what would my head say about the talk ahead with you guys? I really probe in my head, what would my head say to this instead of being totally enthusiastic and go with the flow? Christoffel Sneijders 46:17 - 46:27 Other people would say, okay, I'd like to connect with them. What would my heart say? If I would follow my heart, what would I do in this session? Others would say, hey, if I just would follow my gut, what would I do in this session? Christoffel Sneijders 46:27 - 46:45 So preempt yourself, what will I do if I would follow my head, my heart, or my gut? When you then go into the meeting, at least you already are prepared because preparation is 90% of success. Know yourself, know the enemy. Lao Tzu already wrote a book about that 3,000 years ago. Spencer Horn 46:46 - 46:47 The art of war. Christoffel Sneijders 46:47 - 47:14 the art of war. So it's nothing new I say but it is actually take the time and there is research done also in the military about the most successful say leaders in the military. So their task was you have to conquer a hill and they became aware that the people who came up there on the hill and then took the time to reflect, okay, what should we now up the hill? What should we do? Christoffel Sneijders 47:14 - 47:25 How should we monitor everything? How can we make it happen? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We're the most successful, not the ones who were the quickest on the hill and then sat down and took a beer or whatever they did. Christoffel Sneijders 47:25 - 47:37 And so the leaders in the military were the most successful, were the ones who were there and then took the reflection time, okay, I'm now here, what will I do with the time I have now to make the most Spencer Horn 47:37 - 47:43 Oh, I'm going to challenge you on that. If you look at World War II, look at Montgomery and Patton. Christian Napier 47:43 - 47:45 They were very, very different. Spencer Horn 47:46 - 48:09 Patton says a good plan violently executed today is better than a perfect plan next week. But I get what you're saying, and we have that segues into one of our audience listeners. She, can I put it up on the screen? So Felicia, I don't know if it's Felicia or Felicia, says, what if you lean more gut and heart dominant? Spencer Horn 48:09 - 48:19 Are you just not meant to lead? Oh, thank you so much for listening, Felicia. That's a great question for Christoffel. What do you think, Christoffel? Spencer Horn 48:19 - 48:22 Is she out of luck or not? Christoffel Sneijders 48:22 - 48:31 No, no, no. As I said, I'm more gut and heart dominant. So Felicia, right away I say, of course, we are great leaders. No, you're a great leader. Christoffel Sneijders 48:31 - 48:57 It doesn't matter what your score is. You're a great leader if you're aware of your weak points and know how to compensate that. Because there are examples, as we spoke about, from Elon Musk to Donald Trump, to Brendan Van Vurchen, to Bill Gates, to Steve Jobs, and Ali Babi Guy, lost right away his name. Christian knows. Christoffel Sneijders 48:57 - 49:10 Yeah, thank you so much. They all have different kinds of styles. It is knowing where you're good at and get a team around you who can compensate. And by the way, the good thing of a hard dominance, you create a team. Christoffel Sneijders 49:11 - 49:34 The good of a gut dominance, you go in action. So it also depends, and that's of course, what kind of role are you in? That score is great already in say, The firefighters, military, action-oriented companies, where the strategy, long-term decisions, not always a part of your job, it's amazing. When long-term decisions are part of your job, you have to have more head brain in there. Christoffel Sneijders 49:35 - 49:48 And so if you're the strategic advisory board, then probably this is not the best score. Then you need probably a little bit more head brain. But if you're in operations, it's an amazing score. If you're in middle management, it's an amazing score. Christoffel Sneijders 49:49 - 50:00 If you're in a fast moving environment, it's an amazing score. So it depends context, but also about self-awareness. So I heard a couple of things. Spencer Horn 50:00 - 50:17 Felicia, there's a couple of things. You're going to be great at building teams, I heard. And you can also surround yourself with people that have some of those strengths that maybe you don't have and rely on them. And of course, you can develop those brain muscles, as Christoffel said. Spencer Horn 50:17 - 50:30 So thank you so much for listening. I do have a question before we get to the lightning round. You have an assessment, and if you want to make that available to our listeners, we can put that in the show notes. That would be amazing. Spencer Horn 50:31 - 50:48 Or just the way that they can find out about it or access it from your website. I use a behavioral assessment, Christopher. I don't know if you use one besides the one you've created. And one of the things that I love about this assessment It's used around the world. Spencer Horn 50:48 - 51:05 It's called a ProScan. It measures, in addition to behavioral tendencies, it measures logic. And logic has different styles. You've been describing them, and so we have what's called a fact style or an intuition style. Spencer Horn 51:05 - 51:12 The intuition style is exactly what you're talking about. It's gut oriented. It's very fast acting. I mean, people can make decisions very, very quickly. Spencer Horn 51:12 - 51:32 But what I find is interesting, you could have an intuition style logic, but you could be what we call highly conformity, which is kind of that brain muscle, right? And what I find is people will make a decision quickly, but then they'll second guess themselves. And so these are dynamics that they have to fight within themselves. But I find it's fairly accurate. Spencer Horn 51:32 - 51:44 I also find that the fact people can learn how to trust their intuition almost using the scientific method, right? What does my gut tell me? Now test it. Can you develop that intuition? Christoffel Sneijders 51:46 - 51:57 Yes, you can develop that intuition. As we said, you can train it. But it means also you have to get all those signals come in. And what I said, the nerve is at 90% of communication up. Christoffel Sneijders 51:58 - 52:27 We unlearn to listen to it. if you In our adult phase, we can retrain ourselves and start listening to it. So we can retrain ourselves. Now about the test, it's free. Christoffel Sneijders 52:27 - 52:40 If you go to 3 Brains Intelligence, that's the word, you find there the test and they're for free. Why do I do them for free? It's a short test. One, because one, I don't like the people say, I am a gut brain. Christoffel Sneijders 52:40 - 52:57 I am a heart brain. No, I have a dominance in my system one thinking in this. Because your system two thinking as Daniel Kahneman already wrote in his beautiful book, you can train your critical thinking and your order kind of brain thinking when you take time for it. So I don't like to map people they are. Christoffel Sneijders 52:58 - 53:14 No, this is a preference you have. Based on preference, you can start training yourself what should be my system too. And for me, as they say in neuro-linguistic programming, the map is not a territory. A test is never a personality because it's also a self-reflection what you do. Spencer Horn 53:14 - 53:15 Of course. Christoffel Sneijders 53:15 - 53:27 And most people are really horrible in accessing themselves. They think I should do this, so this is what I score. That is not what they do always. Because if you ask anybody in the world, are you dishonest? Christoffel Sneijders 53:27 - 53:34 How many people would say, I'm dishonest? almost zero, but look around you, we find them everywhere. Spencer Horn 53:35 - 53:41 Yeah, I know 90% of us overestimate our impact and underestimate our negative impact. Christoffel Sneijders 53:41 - 53:58 Absolutely. I don't like the test becomes the truth. It becomes an indicator to start a talk or coaching or a development of people. That's why they're also for free, so I don't put, say, Spencer Horn 54:05 - 54:29 There is a huge delay today, Christian, a huge delay, because I've been pressing the button, nothing's happening, and so I put it at the right point and then Kristoffeld didn't see it coming, so he kept going. I promise you I've been pressing it sooner. But listen, I have a comment I'm going to add up from Felicia. She wants to thank you, Christoffel, for your insight. Spencer Horn 54:29 - 54:44 She works in corporate HR, TA, and so thank you so much for listening. We love it when our listeners chime in and ask questions. Okay, are you ready for the lightning round? Okay, here we go. Spencer Horn 54:46 - 54:49 Head, heart or gut, which do leaders neglect the most? Christoffel Sneijders 54:52 - 54:52 Heart. Spencer Horn 54:53 - 54:56 One word that defines aligned leadership? Christoffel Sneijders 54:58 - 55:00 I would say three brains intelligence. Spencer Horn 55:01 - 55:04 Burnout is caused more by pressure or misalignment? Christoffel Sneijders 55:05 - 55:09 Misalignment of the heart, not listening to it or listening too much to it actually. Spencer Horn 55:10 - 55:20 Makes sense. The most powerful decision-making tool is? The gut. Strategy or intuition, which wins long-term? Christoffel Sneijders 55:24 - 55:41 That's an interesting question because short-term the intuition will win and wipe out the long-term. So if they are not allowed to kill each other, strategy wins. If they're allowed to kill each other, intuition wins. Spencer Horn 55:43 - 55:46 I love that answer. A daily habit that strengthens alignment. Christoffel Sneijders 55:49 - 56:01 I would say, I call it three brains meditation. It means really connect with your head, heart and gut in a breathing exercise and really bring your attention, your awareness, your love to all your three wisdom centers. Spencer Horn 56:02 - 56:06 Interesting. Most misunderstood emotion in leadership? Christoffel Sneijders 56:08 - 56:09 Empathy. Spencer Horn 56:10 - 56:18 Yes. One leadership myth you'd eliminate tomorrow? Toxic leadership. High performance starts with? Spencer Horn 56:20 - 56:24 Passion. Finish this sentence. Great teamwork happens when? Christoffel Sneijders 56:26 - 56:28 We listen to this podcast. Spencer Horn 56:31 - 56:39 Awesome, all right, Christian, thank you. Great answer, I can't hear you, Christian. Christian Napier 56:41 - 56:59 I muted myself because my phone was ringing in the background and I forgot to unmute. I said, this is a great way to wrap it up on a high note here. So Christophe, if people want to connect with you, they wanna learn more about what you do or how you can potentially help them, what is the best way for them to reach out to you? Christoffel Sneijders 56:59 - 57:07 As I said, it's about three brains intelligence. The website is called three brains intelligence. The tests are there. I am there. Christoffel Sneijders 57:07 - 57:27 So Google three brains intelligence. You will find me the same in LinkedIn. And I always say to people, if you did my test and you connect with me, I give you a free talk with me because my passion is, and it's really my passion. If I say if I could get one thing out of the world is toxic leadership. Christoffel Sneijders 57:27 - 57:50 And actually, not only in companies, but everywhere. So if somebody's interested for learning about this, it means they're the little drop in the ocean to remove toxic leadership. So I give my passion and energy for that. I give back because I know on that moment, my kids, my grandkids, your kids, your grandkids will live in a world that is better than we found. Christian Napier 57:52 - 58:10 That's well said, and I have that same aspiration. I appreciate you sharing that. And Spencer, you've been helping people and organizations build high-performing teams for decades around the world. If people are interested in learning more about how you can help them, how do they connect with you? Spencer Horn 58:10 - 58:20 Just message me on LinkedIn. Say hello. We'll schedule a conversation. And Christoffel, now you know why I love Christian so much. Spencer Horn 58:20 - 58:21 Isn't he great? Christoffel Sneijders 58:22 - 58:36 Oh, yes, he's amazing. When you look at your two profiles, you're just like me. You're spontaneous, Spencer, and blurbs out and goes for it. And you see them, Christian, thinking, observing. Christoffel Sneijders 58:36 - 58:42 Deadly silence. In the right order. And it comes with a question that is so sharp. You think, oh, so beautiful. Spencer Horn 58:42 - 58:56 All the time. And so it's one of the things I love about this show is we compliment each other. He's the brains, I'm the heart. So anyway, so glad to have you with us, Christian, and how can people get a hold of you? Christian Napier 58:57 - 59:03 LinkedIn, that's easy. You just find me on there. Happy to connect with folks there. Spencer, thank you for the kind words. Christian Napier 59:03 - 59:11 And right back at you, I've been admiring you for decades. Literally, it's been decades. I mean, more than 20 years. And... Christian Napier 59:12 - 59:23 We're gonna go have lunch today again, right? We're gonna go have lunch at our favorite Mexican restaurant, Red Iguana. and I look forward to seeing you in Qatar. And again, Christopher, thank you so much for joining us. Christian Napier 59:23 - 59:29 Listeners and viewers, thank you for joining us as well. We appreciate your questions. Please like and subscribe to our podcast. We'll catch you again soon.