Trey: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey!
Jude: I'm Jude, how you doing Trey?
Trey: I'm oddly nervous made on save.
I don't know what it is, but ever since we were tasked with doing this episode on The
Winter Soldier I've been stressed and the way it happened, where we were just kind
of like trying to figure out what it is we were going to record this week and we're
like, Hey, let's just do winter soldier.
It was, I agreed to it.
And that immediate was like, oh no, I don't
know why.
Jude: So I had a ,friend, friend from work,
Trey: You know Bruce Banner?
Jude: Yeah.
I've been holding it back, uh, but like a friend from work today, he was
like, what are y'all doing on the one.
I was like, we're recording on winter soldier.
And he said, oh yeah, I saw that on Twitter.
I can't wait.
You know, to see what y'all have to say about that.
Uh, hope you don't mess it up.
And I know he was playing with me, but I'm just like, man, this
is so many people's top five that I was like, oh, I might get sick.
And just like call in friend Daniel or something to replace me.
Trey: Oh man.
No, I, I feel that, I mean, you're totally right about it being the number
one favorite movie for so many people.
But for me, like I, since we've done this podcast, like, it's my number one.
I love this movie.
It's my favorite.
So I know we're just like talking about it, but there's this feeling
of wanting to do it justice.
That was more pressure than I've ever felt.
Taking notes for a
Jude: show, like knowing that this is the one you've seen the most.
It has been like your top.
I, there was a part of me that was just like, I don't have to prep for this.
Trey's got it.
And I'm just gonna sit back and let them go.
Like, just let him gosh, about his, you know, about his bliss and, and cap so
Trey: well, uh, thanks to anxiety.
I've watched it instead of going off the cuff.
Oh, well of course, we're going to be talking about captain America, the
winter soldier here in a few, but one of the things we wanted to do here at
the top of the show is talk moon night.
At the time of this episode, it will have been a week since we got the first
trailer of moon night, which we now know will be dropping on March 30th.
So now that we've seen the trailer, uh, what are some of
your reactions to Moonlight?
Jude: Jude Moonlight as a character?
I not as familiar with.
And I, I was excited about it because I knew enough about the character to
say, okay, this is going to be awesome.
Or this is going to be cool or fun, you know?
Um, actually put it this way better.
This is going to be something different.
It felt like, and then I scribed it got cash.
I was like, wow, he's good.
Awesome.
Yes.
I think though your text to me said it best when, or like I had the feeling,
but you really put the words to it.
It was so cinematic.
Like if that, even the poster, like if I didn't know, it was a Disney
plus show, it looked like I was watching a trailer for a movie.
The poster looked like it was something for a movie.
And I think more so than any of the other Disney plus shows.
Yeah.
Trey: And to go out on that limb with you, um, you know, I've talked about this on
my personal Twitter, but I haven't really said much of it here on the pod, but one
of my smaller personal goals this year is to watch movies outside of the MCU.
Like more of them, because as much as I love it, if you just only have
a diet of these superhero Marvel movies at a certain point, you lose
that contrast of something else.
And so as I've been watching more, it's like, I've started to realize
like, okay, I see what the commonality of the look is of these shows.
Moon night feels like it's breaking past that look in a way that I
haven't felt in any of the Disney plus shows and even in some of the movies
themselves, like it looked phenomenal.
Yeah.
Yes.
So
Jude: I'm, I am really, really pumped for that.
Um, and saying we're, we're doing that.
Like just to take her there.
I'm I even have a note on my iPhone.
And so I don't lose track because the goal is 52.
Non Marvel movies this year.
Um, oh, wow.
That's awesome.
I wonder I'm going to probably end up with more than that.
Um, hopefully, but like, just like once a week, once a week and I, Amy and I,
we got our, our movie picked for this weekend, so yeah, that's fantastic.
Yeah.
But, but again, you're right.
Like it just looked and felt
Trey: different and I like the area that they're playing in it.
Cause it feels like man, the talk of post in game life is this intrigued
into the horror aspect of the MCU.
Like trying to create that side of the world that we haven't seen before we
knew that was kind of the talk with duck strange in the multi-verse of madness.
That's wavered a little bit, but with moon night, like I'm almost positive.
He was beating up a werewolf like that is a horror aspect of
the EMC we haven't seen before.
And I like that what they're doing there as well as.
And I want to be careful when I say this, because I do think there needs
to be a cautious needle thread of how they handle the mental illness with,
with, uh, Oscar Isaac's character.
But it feels like a very interesting place to play in if they can do it, right?
Yes.
Jude: Yes.
So I sent my friend, Sean it's wheat from not on Twitter.
Like I texted him, I shared the tweet with him and this was this last Saturday.
And it was the whole first tease to the trailer.
You know, you had that really quick snippet of things.
And he said that same thing, pretty sure he's punching a werewolf by the way.
Yeah.
And this was before the actual trailer dropped and within the,
the T's, uh, And he showed up.
And w what was it?
I think the first issue is werewolf by night.
Trey: I want to say yes, because of the conversation that I had with JB
fancy in our, who is Moonlight episode,
Jude: you know what, I'm so funny.
I write into a coworker cause you know, I was at work and he asks about Moonlight.
He's like, I don't know anything about it.
He goes, he had, he ain't even seen the trailer yet.
And super nice guy, super excited.
And the Oscar Isaac draw was actually for him, like dude, Oscar eyes, isn't it.
He didn't even know Oscar, Isaac wasn't until I told him.
And he's like, I'm, I'm sold he's at it.
And so I was like, I'll send you a, send you a couple of links.
So you know something about midnight.
And one of them I sent was you with JV.
Um, is like, yeah, listen to this pod, watch this video.
And I still, I read it Jamie fancy pants.
Uh, I did back then and I still do so, so yeah, JV you're coming back, buddy.
Trey: We need to get them back on, especially before moon night, but
for sure, whenever moon night drops, we're afraid to get JV back on.
Cause he's our resident moon night expert.
Yes.
So like we said, these were just quick reactions, but I don't think
we can get out of this without at least putting this on the record.
What'd you think of the suit?
I liked it.
Jude: I liked it a lot.
Again, not, I I've seen a variety of different images, I guess, from the comic
on the, on the suit, from what they did.
And I think the way they went with it, uh, again, not knowing
fully how the suit works.
Cause I don't think, I don't think in the comic or maybe it depends on the run.
It wasn't like it was something like body armor or something he
wore, you know, I don't remember.
I wasn't aware of it acting kind of like the way spawns did were just
kind of came on to him and off.
Uh, and even that's kind of a terrible analogy, but anyways, but
Trey: yeah, it's, it's such a cool look.
They haven't materialized on him in that moment, which we
don't, I I'll speak for me.
I don't know the rules of it, but based on the pairing of that one character
that says something to the extent of unleashed the chaos, just allowing that
side of him to come out, it almost feels like it's its own entity that that takes
control, which fits into the space.
They're playing with the multiple identities.
Um, it's a very interesting visual look to, to, to inhabit that the
only thing I'm not sold on and I'm hoping that this is just something I
need to see in more direct emotion.
I don't know if I like the glowing eyes.
They look a little too piercing and it feels distracting.
Jude: I can see that.
But what comes to mind, especially with this first trailer is in very
broad terms for people listening.
Very broad terms.
If you haven't seen Spiderman, no way home.
And actually it's interesting.
You're going to see a different movie than I saw because visually speaking, because
we know so many went back in and touched up some visual effects, you know, and
just made some things sharper is it's not like drastic changes to the movie in all
that to say, we know that that happened.
So I'm wondering if the effects aren't actually done on the suit.
Um, and we're going to see
Trey: some touching up and I can see that.
Yeah.
I mean, how often, like, I think even again, using the same, uh, broad
strokes that you're speaking with and no way home, you can see it based on
the trailers and some of the color grading that we got and the initial
ones versus the final product, versus what people who haven't seen it yet.
We'll eventually see that's different from what we saw.
Yeah.
So that's a good point.
Hopefully that'll will assuage any concerns.
And again, it's, it's something, you know how sometimes some
things are just better in motion.
It was too quick of a shot for it to settle.
I think so.
Jude: It's interesting.
When, when you know, I'm just going to say this, cause I don't know we need
to move on, but it seems to be that getting the eyes right in these movies
can be difficult when you have masks.
Yeah, right.
Trey: It's just, you know, so much emotion comes from the eyes that you
just, you, if you don't get it right.
It just kind of renders the, the acting ability moot.
Yeah, well, yeah.
Uh, before we move out of moon night, uh, we did want to take a few moments to
mention that, uh, unfortunately there has been some sad news in regards to the show,
an actor by the name of Gaspard, U Lele, uh, unfortunately passed away this week.
It was an unfortunate skiing accident where I think it was a head-on collision.
And, uh, at the age of 37, he unfortunately passed away.
Yeah.
Um, so that's, that's something that we wanted to sure.
Mention here.
And of course we'll link to the full story in the show now.
So, yeah, that's a, that's something we'll definitely be keeping in
mind as we get closer to March 30th when the show, uh, airs and we'll
get to see the contributions that this actor had towards that show.
But moving on, uh, if you downloaded this episode, he, you know, we're
going to be talking about captain America, the winter soldier.
Uh, it's been a while since we've done a retrospective review.
So just to set the stage, uh, there are no spoilers zones for this
particular movie because it is one that has been out for quite a while,
but we are going to be breaking it down into a three act structure.
So act one is going to take us from the beginning of the movie all
the way to the moment that Steve Rogers is called into shield for
questioning by Alexander Pierce.
Uh, so Jude starting with you, where would you like to start and act one?
Uh, hold on.
Jude: Pierce.
Was that yeah.
Was that Bookie's therapist?
Trey: Is that really, was that the same
Jude: name?
Ruined captain America, winter soldier, right?
Trey: Know captain America, the
Jude: winter soldier now.
Trey: Yeah.
It's a difference of a colon and an, and,
and trust me, it is not made it easy on social media trying
to promote this day podcast.
Jude: Well, you know, I mean, we have, we have a new cap, right.
Uh, you know what, here's what I'm gonna start.
Uh, and you know, we put a call out leading up to this
recording to find out from people.
What was there, the first scene?
You know, the first thing they think of the first thing that comes to mind, I'm
with earth 8, 9, 4 podcast on Instagram.
They posted definitely the very opening sequence, kind of a calm before the storm.
And I like it like that whole sequence.
They're just that calm.
You know, this training, not montage, but it almost kind of felt like a montage
for as many times as cap lapped, uh, Sam Wilson, you know, and then we get black
widow and then, you know, goes right into, you know, kept doing his thing.
And so, yeah, so it's, I loved it.
I, in, in terms of like how they started it, uh, and I just, I just wanted to
highlight that cause, cause that whole, it was like, it's like they, they knew how
to ease us into this really action packed
Trey: movie, almost definitely.
And, and it works on so many wonderful levels.
Like you said it introduces Sam and, and gives personality to Steve in a way
that the first Avenger and a vendor's movie didn't really have time to do.
Uh, you know, we talked about it a lot whenever we did our retrospective review
on captain America, the first Avenger.
And that's one of the, I guess, issues is the word I'll use.
One of the issues that comes to with characters like Steve Rogers, is that you
can fall into that pit of being one note.
It is a character who has the burden of being right.
Uh, and I, and I say that loosely because you know, it is still written by people.
So there is the fallibility of that, but at the heart of who captain
America is, that's supposed to be the example, I guess, if that may
be a better way for me to put it.
So it never really leaves room for showing who this person is on the quieter side.
And to have this moment of almost reflecting.
Where he is, you know, doing something for himself, he's
exercising, he's staying in shape.
And he finds that commonality with Sam.
It gives us a glimpse into who the person is when all we have seen is the mantle.
And it's fantastic.
Um, and again, and I want to say this too, here at the top, because
this is going to be a reoccurring theme and as cheesy as it sounds.
Friendship is the theme of the movie, like in contrast to the conspiracy
and the paranoia of who you can or can't trust the people that you
rely on and the people that you call friends, those are the people you
turn to in those moments of doubt.
And so, even though we don't know it upon first watch what becomes enriching on
multiple re watches, which I have done multiple of is you get a, a broad spectrum
of how those friendships take place.
You have that budding relationship with Sam and Steve and how they're
kind of learning each other's comfortability with teasing each other.
And then you have the established relationship with Natasha where she's
like, Hey, I'm here to pick up a fossil.
And he's like, hilarious.
Like, it's just, it's.
It is the driving force for the answer that we will eventually
get to at the beginning.
And the fact that it happens so quickly here at the top is, is brilliant.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and it's interesting, you mentioned that because you have the
LNR, I would say you have the illusion of friendship with Natasha, uh, as you,
as you watch in the questioning that they have together li uh, that they,
uh, that Rogers has of Natasha, as you know, we get in later into the movie.
Um, and so it appears as friends, but as you get, you kind of see, it's
like, no, they're not as friendly as it is not friendly, not the right
word, but they're not friends yet.
And in that sense either.
So I think that's really
Trey: cool.
It's almost like you have to see it go on.
Trial, like we've talked about it before and I forgot exactly the way you put it,
but that's what relationships are you get to this point where you build up this
person, something happens that tests, the idea of who you think this person is, and
you either grow upon it or it dissolves.
And that's what makes it special with Steven and Natasha that it does grow.
Um, and so I like, and this isn't trying to repeat what you said.
I think it is important the way you framed it.
That is there is this air of like falseness to it.
That becomes stronger on the other side.
Jude: Yeah.
Like it's yeah.
This disillusionment, like, like you meet somebody and it's great.
And you know, there there's this element where a relationship should end naturally.
Um, but especially with this, cause like it plays on our expectations because we,
the last time we saw them together was Avengers, you know, So we've naturally,
oh, there their team, their friends, um, when it's like, no, they worked together.
They worked well as a team together, but the, the idea or the level of, you
know, like, like when she asked later, would you trust me now to save your life?
Or, you know, or would you trust me to save your life and like, and just thinking
about those things in the pulling through, um, and learning how to trust each.
Like that is, was really cool
to
Trey: watch.
And, you know, speaking of the other side of the spectrum with Sam,
which is most definitely a budding relationship, um, you know, you have
talked about it multiple times and I finally have gotten around to doing it.
I haven't finished it yet, but I started listening to the audio
commentary track for the winter soldier.
And that was one of the thing the Russo brothers talked about a lot in
that it was so important to get the relationship right with Stephen Sam,
because it had to be believable that in the moment of doubt, when everybody is
turning on Steve Rogers, it has to be believable that Steve would go to Sam.
And that starts here in that beginning.
And it is because of that shared military experience where.
You know, w w we've seen so much of the MCU now, but this really feels
like one of the first examples we've got of the outside perspective of
what it is for the Avengers and the fact that Sam finds commonality
rather than like celebrity worship.
When Steve, I think, as the gateway, towards their understanding of each other,
and it is a level of sincerity that might be one of the first time Steve Rogers
has felt since waking up from the ice.
Jude: Well, and it's interesting.
Well, I've never picked up on this, on this before, which was,
I wish they would have came back.
Like there was that exchange between him and Sam, you know, and, and we're,
I think we're getting past, are we going to pastor secretly along with the scene?
Uh,
Trey: which scene are you talking about?
Jude: Where he talks to Sam right before he go right.
As the thing was.
Oh at the VAM.
Yeah.
Trey: Yeah, no, this
Jude: is still act one.
Okay.
Like, I don't know why in my head, I was like, oh wait, I don't want to
jump too far ahead, but it's, they didn't come back to that, to that
line, uh, early start explicitly, you know, you know, what makes you happy?
And, and he's like, I don't know.
You know, and, and that element of that character was that sense
of, I just saw a different light.
Like it was like, wow, like you're, you're doing what you know,
because you're isolated right from this whole frozen in time thing.
And so you can't really struggle to relate to people and the, you know, so
now it's like, what makes you happy was like, I don't, I don't know, you know,
so I'm just going to continue doing this.
Um, and, and like, that was the feeling I got out of that scene this
time, which I don't think I've ever had it that way before, you know, so
that's something I wish they would have explicitly come back to, um, like
even an end game, like I get, okay.
You had your moment with peg.
Uh, Carter, but I wish I wish somehow they would have worked
that line and that back into it.
I do
Trey: think they try, uh, although it's not as serviceable as based on what I'm
hearing from you that you would like.
Um, and I wonder how much of that is us being spoiled by the expansion
of these characters lives that we get with the Disney plus shows.
Um, but the way that I think they try is, you know, when we get to the LA Marion
star stuff, so much of the banter between, uh, Steve and Natasha, is that like, Hey,
well, what about her from accounting?
If you asked her out, I bet she say yes.
And he's like, yeah, that's why I don't ask her out.
I don't, I don't have time.
So what happens immediately after this?
Did Sam ask Steve about like, what makes you happy?
And he says, I don't know.
One of the very next things we see him do is that flirtatious scene
between him and his neighbor.
Now the reason I don't like this being the full answer to your question of why
they don't revisit it is because it's such a very one note way of showing
personality outside of the job of just trying to turn it into a relationship.
But I think it is on the mind.
It just, there wasn't time to fully explore it.
Uh, but the thing that I think it reminded me is the line that he has an
end game where he says, I finally did what Tony said to do and got a life.
So it's, it's there, but you kind of really have to scrape the surface.
Jude: Well, see, that's interesting because I took that going back to the
age, age of Ultron, the individual trunk.
How so?
Uh, just to of the.
The conversation that they had with the end, whereas like, Hey, what about you?
You know, have a life and get out of it.
And he's like, no, I'm home where I'm at.
And then he goes back in and with the new Avengers team.
So I attached it more to that scene than right here.
Um, and I think because it was between.
Well, that, that I did what Tony said rather, this, this is a
moment between Sam and Rogers.
Trey: So I do want to say this though, speaking more towards
the Sam side of this scene.
Uh, one of the things we got prior to going into this is a conversation
that Steve had with Peggy and Steve really opens up about that feeling
of isolation that you were talking about and not really knowing.
What to do in this new world, because he doesn't know if who he is aligns with what
they are, what they have become the, the shield, the, the government, the military,
whatever it is, whatever institution it is that he's trying to be a part of.
And Peggy has that advice of that.
Sometimes the only thing you can do is start over.
And so, you know, I mentioned the neighbor side of it with Sharon of him,
trying to have that relationship there.
But I think him also going towards Sam is part of that starting over.
He's finally relinquishing the pass that he was trying to cling on to,
and the people that he knew, um, and starting something new with Sam as well.
Cause even when I say relationship, I mean relationships in a broad term, uh, this
is a person who is outside of their time.
Who's never had time to really process what happened with world
war II into the Avengers into now.
And so, um, being here at Sam, I think speaks volumes about who he is and it
stuck out to me so much that if there's any doubt, which there shouldn't be,
but if there's any doubt, why Sam Wilson is the next captain America,
it is in that scene here where he is leading that meeting with the veterans
and he showing that inspiration to do better, which is something that I've.
Talked about loving so much with the captain America character, because
it's not just about the going out there and being the strongest or
the toughest or whatever it is, compassion towards each other.
And I love that Steve gets to look in on this moment because
it's not a show on Sam's part.
This is just who he is.
Jude: Yes, that whole sequence with, uh, the veterans was really good.
But one of the things you mentioned about that commonality, um, I think also because
of that commonality, that it helped Salem see Rogers as a normal person.
Right.
Rather than like, oh, you're captain America, you're an Avenger, you
know, it's like, now you were just like me, you, you know what I mean?
Um, in the sense of service and, and stuff, uh, cause, cause they'd
have to imagine in that world, And maybe I'm, maybe I'm taking
some experiences of Hawkeye and reading it back into this movie.
Um, cause I'm imagining like people are gonna recognize captain America, you know?
Um, and, and there's probably got to just the way people were recognizing Hawkeye.
Um, and so I, I feel like that was probably also refreshing.
If that makes sense.
Trey: Yeah.
Oh 100%.
It's the, it's the genuineness genuine sincerity.
It's not the, oh, this is who you think I am.
You are seeing me kind of thing.
Well, you know, I love the way that you phrased it as Sam seeing the person,
because I think one of the brilliant things that this movie is doing is
giving us both sides of this, of captain America and Steve Rogers and act one.
And without a doubt, the low Marion star mission, I think is the moment
that captain America got respect.
Because so, so often, I mean, he was kind of like, oh, he's cheesy.
He's captain America, whatever.
That moment, he gets onto the boat and he is like going around and kicking
these people to the side and throwing the knife and flipping them off the side.
It is a completely different tone than what we saw of Steve
Rogers up until this point.
And before we continue that conversation, uh, I do want to say this because this is
something that I frequently brought up, uh, during Falcon and the winter soldier,
and that I highlighted how uncomfortable the violence made me at times.
And I was really trying to figure out what that was.
Um, I think I've said it before, but I just want to set that context
here for this movie as well.
I really think that level of uncomfortability is a change in me because
having come back to this with the intent of taking notes, it is something that I
think sticks out to me far more than it did when I originally watched this movie.
Uh, so that's something that I think I'm trying to keep in mind
as I evaluate these series moving.
That's
Jude: interesting.
Um, cause my note was, and I'm just going to read it just kicked a guy overboard.
Ha
um, you know, and well, and we talked about this with, with the
Disney plus series, there's an L there's, there's an element in the
opening was Sam that he was doing it.
I'm gonna oversimplify it just, but he was doing a military operation at that point.
Right.
Um, where here Rogers was, he was ineffective on a shield operation.
Right.
And so I think when you start talking about the level of violence and things
like that, I think we, I think it's okay to forgive that here in this
situation, because of, you know, at least especially up to this point,
let's say it that way, what we know he was going into, um, a hostage situation
you were sent in by shield, you know, you're going to engrave a threat.
And so in that sense, like, like that I think is where we can say, okay,
the level of violence is forgiving.
Um, but you know this as well.
Listening to the director's commentary.
And talking about that change in captain America, the Russo brothers mentioned
in this scene that they wanted, they wanted him to have, I think, what they
called a knockout blow for each person.
Like I got to get through them quick.
They have to be down, not get back up.
They wanted tight handheld personal stuff with his action sequences.
Um, cause they wanted to get that captain America has been training more now, uh,
with shield and, and this isn't your.
Captain America you're used to, if that makes sense.
I think they talked a little bit about that in the sequence on the commentary.
And I think they did that really effectively.
It
Trey: is the evolution of the character and to respond quickly to one of the
things you said, I don't think we will ever get away from the fact that violence
is the language of action movies.
I mean, that's just part of it.
And so I think there is some level of.
I dunno, suspension of the disbelief is the right word, but
it's just part of the language.
Um, and I, and I think you're right, because the, the language they're
using here is showing, okay, captain America, the first Avenger, here's a
guy who's never been in a fight before.
Who's immediately granted these superhero powers.
He is a hero, but there's a little bit of unscripted chaos
into the way that he's fighting.
It doesn't feel organized.
It just feels improvisational, uh, Avengers, you start to get a
little bit more of that strategic leadership role, but here in the
winter soldier, you see, he has been under the wing of shield for a while.
So not only is it an evolution of the character, it is.
World-building in that filling in the gaps of time between movies.
Yeah.
Jude: And also keep in mind when we really dove into the violence of Falcon
and the winter soldier versus here, like, like this movie, It's pretty
straight forward, you know, who's good.
You know, who's bad.
Trey: Sorry.
It's the stand in for Nazis.
That's the, it's the, here's your bad guy, you know, their bag.
I mean, there's even that line.
If they're shooting at you, they're
Jude: bad.
Right.
And whereas in talking to the winter soldier, you had, you know, the bad.
So to speak, but they were bad in that, you know, you needed somebody
for Valcon and winter's ultra to punch, like, like you could easily
synthesize with them and what they were doing and why they were doing it.
And we can question the means.
So, and so when, when it's like that, then it becomes very different than
when you're, when you're talking about violence and the level of violence
and, um, and, and what's going on because they're because they do have,
like, they went out of their way to have faces and stories, um, and have
people as opposed to, oh, you're a guy.
Some agent with the masculine.
Yeah.
I'm going to punch you.
No big deal.
Trey: And, you know, speaking of the way that fights can be imbued with narrative,
I do want to zone in on the one with rock, uh, specifically the one right before
he goes into the room where Nat is and they have their fight back and forth.
And then Ben Rock's like, Hey, I thought you were more than just a shield.
Um, you know, speaking broadly about captain America, Steve Rogers, captain
America, his journey throughout the entirety of the MCU is really wrestling
with who he is and how he fits into the systems that he allegedly stands for.
And I think that's best summarized by the farewell letter.
He wrote to Tony and civil war and that he puts his faith in people.
And I, I, that, that takes him quite a while within the MCU to get to,
but you can start to see it here.
This is the next step of where we've been going because in the first Avenger,
you know, he was bred to be this perfect soldier and then ultimately
was abandoned to be propaganda for the military, uh, Avengers.
He has that realization that Shield's been using hydrotech to
try and even the playing field.
So even, even in, in shield and in the Avengers, he's finding out
that he can't fully trust them.
And that is just completely obliterated here in winter soldier.
By the time we get to the end of the movie of who he can or can't
trust, uh, as far as institutions go.
Um, so what I like about the bat rock challenging of like, Hey, I thought
you were more than just a shield.
Seeing him take off the helmet and putting up the shield on his back.
It plays to a little bit of that ego.
We talked about whenever we did our first Avenger review about how he almost plays
with a bit of a chip on his shoulder.
Um, but I also think it helps with what we were talking about in separating Steve
Rogers from the captain America persona.
Uh, this is, this feels kind of driven by Steve and less what
the mission supposed to be.
And I think we have to have that divorce of character in mantle.
If we're going to get to the point of the second act where we really
dive deep into the character to see where those lines begin and end.
Jude: I think that's really cool.
What you just said.
Thanks.
Here's why I go, one of the things, one of the things I noticed about myself
and watching this movie and taking notes is the evolution of my own thought.
If that makes sense from when I first saw it to now, because the
whole thought you were more than a shield, my thought was like, oh wow.
This, this to me is really showing a difference between like, okay, LA sounds
weird, but I want to, I want to qualify my statement first, when, when we're
talking about, you know, any of these films there is, and I mentioned it a lot,
the vocabulary, the shorthand, right?
Like, like the, the intention, the reliance of creators, showrunners
filmmakers that you are aware of, certain things, you know, like I
saw a commercial for the iPhone 13.
That was absolutely brilliant.
A guy in the front seat of the car.
And he's like, I'm the main character because I'm the one in focus or not.
And he's like, and he's like, well, what if this?
And Nope, I'm still the main character.
And he goes, well, what if I was to kill her?
And then I became in focus, like, that's exactly what they would do.
Right.
Um, and so we had that second hand.
Okay.
We, Larry cause it's easy and it's helps us very quickly.
Oh, that's this are there.
Um, which is also very negative as well because you know, you can
go back and watch older stuff and you're like, oh, that's at an age.
Well, you know what I mean?
Um, now having said that, not that I'm going to say this didn't age.
Well, for me, what it showed was the difference between how men are portrayed,
you know, and in this hyper-masculinity.
Because he was like, you thought you were more than a shield and like you
said, he took off the mask and did this.
Whereas when that happened in captain Marvel, Danvers, you know,
cause like, Jude law's character knew he couldn't beat Marvel.
So was like Denver.
So he's going to try to get it to do a, uh, or get Danvers, to do
a one-on-one without her powers.
And she just shoots him anyways.
And it's just like, I have nothing to prove to you.
Like, you know, but it's, it's, it is a typical hyper-masculine response of like,
oh, challenge accepted, put this away.
And that, and that's what came to mind this time, um, that
I'd never thought of before.
And, and again, it just, it there's watching this, this time around is
kind of showing the evolution of my own thought and how I watched the.
Trey: No, and I, I think that's a very great call-out too, to point out, because
that is so much of what's impactful of that moment in captain Marvel.
It's that realization like I don't owe you anything and she
does her own character permit.
And so that makes me want to re-evaluate that lens too, as well.
It's like, yeah, that is like very male beaten my chest
Jude: and you can get, but again, I get the Russo brothers are trying to
establish, like we talked about, right.
Captain America has evolved from his world war II tradings and
picked up these techniques, and this is a good way to show it.
And you're relying on the knowledge of, of the guy playing bat
rock is an actual MMA fighter.
Right.
And so you're able to get that, but it was just kinda like later seeing
that scene, you know, after the captain Marvel scene, the, and the
things, it was just like, that's so.
Hyper mil, if you could shop cat.
Oh,
Trey: well, you know, cause the, the thing that I got out of it was that like, okay,
the focus of this movie is we are finding the line between Steve Rogers and captain
America and learning how to unify that.
I think that can move us into a different section here, um, where, you know, I, I
love how so often movies aren't really about what we think they're about.
Like, for example, all the action stuff, that's just what happens.
But when you really sit down and look at this movie, it is, and I use a lowercase
P here, but it is, it is a philosophical debate between captain America, uh, and
Nick fury and the way that they view how to adapt into this modern world.
Uh, and the, and the meeting that they have at the triskelion I think is, is
a great place to emphasize this because you have that argument where Steve
walks in to the office and he's like, you can't help yourself from lying.
Um, and, and evolves into that point where Steve has, I think, a
very defining, uh, thesis in that statement, soldiers trust each other.
That's what makes it an army.
To which Nick says the last time I trusted someone, I lost an eye.
So we get a very definitive look of these characters who are going to
undergo a change by the film's end.
And I like that.
This is what it's really about is how far can you trade trust for what's right.
And with a character like Steve what's right.
Is always the driving force of his character.
And with Nick fury, even though he does have the right intentions, it is what
level of, of trust is he willing to give up to ensure that the right thing is done?
If that makes sense?
Jude: Oh yeah.
Like there there's it's well, hold on, I'm going to get sidetracked really briefly
and then jump back into the thought.
Cause you had a great thought there.
Um, for those, everybody just do me a favor, go join the
discord and let me know if.
Cause fury said, right.
I didn't, you know, for the last person I trust, he, it's not that he
trusted a flirting, like he didn't know as a flirt and trusted a cat.
Okay.
And I'm just curious how many people, how, how many people have their
cat people get all the discord?
Let me know, because between the two, like I'm not a huge
pet person, but I'm definitely trusting the dog more than the cat.
And so like I questioned Nick Fury's judgment and that his
last person he trusted was a cat.
Okay.
Um, no, but I do like that you brought that out because it's interesting to me
in that, on the Rogers side, from, from what you were saying, and for what I was
gathering is like the, there's a couple of things going on, where for Rogers, he's
like the, the importance and the trust is in the relationships in the community.
And for fury.
You know, and you have the whole line and it's a nice line about
the eye and stuff for emphasis.
Um, but fury really is in a position where he's like that, that he doesn't
trust anybody, which means there's a completely breakdown in relationships
and in community, you know, and there's still a sense of on his part.
Like at this point, he, he agrees with Hydro's agenda, you know?
Um, it's like, No, I don't trust you.
So I'm going to put a gun to your head and I can only trust me, you know, um,
in, later in the scene, Zola, you know, the whole thing Zola said about what
Hydra was founded on was quote Zola.
Hydro was founded on the belief that humanity could not be
trusted with its own freedom.
Like at this point in the movie, Fury's agenda, like he's on board, you know?
Um, and, and so, so it's interesting to me to, to, to see that.
And it's like, oh, it's high.
All of a sudden, like fury changes.
Oh, it's hydro, so it's bad.
But, but otherwise it really kind of aligned with what he was thinking.
Trey: I got two things that I want to say to that, and I'll start
here and lead into the second one.
And that if the beginning of the movie is a distillation of where Steve Rogers
is and the way that he wants to lead his life and his moral compass, then I
think the story that Nick fury shares with Steve Rogers about his granddad
is the distillation of his ideology.
Um, you know, the, the story about his granddad who used to work in
elevator and he used to get tips and people used to be friendly.
And then as time went on, things got a little bit rougher.
And so the granddad started carrying a gun and he had that
line that I love so much in that.
You know, he says granddad loved people, but he didn't trust them very much.
And then it goes down to the project insight where he's like, yeah, I know it's
a, it's a little bit bigger than a 22.
That is such a simple story.
But I think it conveys that level of comfort that we've developed
with each other throughout history and simultaneously have lost.
And so the thing that I will say about that is I felt a similar place where
you are in that it's hard not to have a stain on Nick Fury's character, that
he was willing to do this in order to achieve what he thought was right.
Because it's sacrificing so much to get there, but you can see the logic.
And so the thing that I wanted to also mention is that if this movie is saying.
The winter soldier is the problem that Steve Rogers is facing in terms of being
like a mindless arm of an institution than Alexander Pierce is to Nick fury.
What the winter soldier is to Steve Rogers.
And I do think we get to a point where we can see a little bit of
redemption on Nick fury, but man, they bring us to some real low lows
Jude: before we get there.
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to jump way ahead for a second and then
backtrack to where we're at.
But in terms of, in terms of fury, you know, he was
looking to salvage at the end.
He's like, well, salvage and calves.
Like, no, it all has to go down.
Um, you know, so like, so like Fury's idea was still no people can't be trusted.
And I'm going to be the one that makes sure that people stay in line,
you know, and essentially he's like playing this, this, this judge of,
of, you know, good, bad morality, you know, um, and keeping people in line
Trey: well, and, and fury tries to justify it because he pushes back
whenever Steve's like this isn't freedom.
It's fear, which iconic line, but furious pushback was like, Hey, you
know, I read those SSR files and you know, I, you guys did some pretty nasty
stuff and I like that it's insinuating.
Okay.
Yeah.
There comes times where there is compromises on the
things that we tried to do.
But the difference is is that there comes a time where you put the weapon down,
whereas project insight is continuous and that is the moral failing of
Jude: Nick.
Well, and I would also argue just the way project insight works.
It is a algorithm.
It is a mechanism looking for in a.
You know, so, so like in the, this first semester with my class, we, one
of the classes was a peace and conflict class, and we're looking at just war
theory, pacifism and all these things.
And that was one of the things I really tried to stress to the students
that I think captain America gets in that part of the conversation and
Nick fury didn't, which is man people get put in unbelievably difficult
situations when you're talking about truly in thinking about decisions of
war and battle and like in true war.
Right.
Um, and, and these conflicts with horrific violence that people
feel driven to do those things.
And they believe themselves to be making the most moral choice possible.
Now we can debate and get into those things.
But I mean, but it's kind of like the, Hey, I saw what you did.
And it's like, well, yeah, we compromise.
Like we're put in a situation where I'm not choosing between a good and
an evil I'm choosing between something horrific and something bad, you know?
Um, and whereas, you know, Fury's just like, yeah, I'm that, that preemptive,
you know, I'm going to keep everybody in line and you actually have a good choice.
It's not like you have to choose between that and something else that's bad.
And, and.
Trying to make a, you know, the best choice between two bats.
That's not furious decision, uh, or that's not the decision in front of
URI, but that's, that's the one, you know, he's, he's thinks he's making it
Trey: is rare.
And even saying it this way is wrong.
It is rare that being judged, jury and execution, executioner
is ever the right answer.
And that's what it feels like.
Fear.
You know, I think we can jump from here to one of the most, at
least for me, this is the scene.
You know, we put out that question on social media about what's the
scene that comes to mind when you think of winter soldier.
For me, it is that chasing with Nick fury.
Uh, again, if so much of the thesis of this film is trust and friendship
and how far you can go with that.
The fact that this chase scene is a microcosm of what the film is trying
to tell, I think is fantastic because you watch all of the systems that Nick
fury has put in place slowly fail him.
So you have that slow build of trust in that.
Okay.
You know what happens when the system that you're supposed to trust like the police
fails and which hits extra hard, given everything we've seen with the increased
documentation of, of police brutality and everything that came to light with
the black lives matter movements a few years ago, But it also moves into the
section where fury is in the car himself.
And he has all these gadgets and gizmos and the, the, the,
the ballistic proof windows.
And you've watched those slowly fail as he tries to back himself out of the corner.
And even after he ultimately gets away trying to get off the grid and trying
to get in contact Maria Hill, that's where we see the winter soldier come in.
So what happens when you have nobody around to trust?
And so you watch Nick fury go from being the person with the most safeguards,
the most compartmentalization to having nothing by the end of it.
And even though he quote unquote succeeds and getting away from this car chase,
he has ultimately lost everything.
And it's such a nice little section of the movie in an action sequence.
Jude: Really glad that you explained it that way, because one, one of
the things from the commentary, I love the commentary for this movie.
Well, as soon as I got it on DVD is one of the things I watch.
And I've been telling people for years, you got to watch this commentary.
You gotta watch this commentary.
It's so good.
And one of the concerns of the Russo brothers and, uh, the writers was
well, a couple of things first.
It was cool that this is what they pitched like this scene is what was the pitch and
what got them, the job and their ideas.
Like we got to match the car, chase and heat.
Um, I haven't seen that movie in a while, but I feel like they did it, but for them,
there was a fear that, oh, we're going to introduce the big, bad in winter soldier.
And he fails because fear he gets away.
But what I loved about the way he explained it is fury physically.
Gets out of that situation, but I wouldn't say they failed just that, that the, the
position that you said, they put them in where I, who do I trust and I'm so
alone and so isolated and they got to me.
Right.
You know, I don't think that you can look at it and say, oh, our
big, bad, how, how bad can he be?
You know, how tough can he be?
Cause fear, he got away.
He, he, he lost a lot in that, you know, you know what I mean?
And, or just like, of course you, you just said all that, but I think,
I think that loss, you know, there, I don't, I don't come away from that
feeling that, that feeling of like, oh, you know, winter soldier is not that.
You know, cause cause of how close they got, how
Trey: much he lost, you know what I honestly think of a lot.
And I, and I referenced this so much, but it's that scene if all movies it's
that scene in 300 where Leonidas throws the spear and he just grazes Xerxes,
and all he does is make some bleed, but you see the horror on his face.
He didn't have to kill Xerxes.
He just had to make God bleed.
And I think that's what this is in that moment with as dramatic as
I'm framing it, that's what it is.
You have stripped the person who is supposed to be unflappable.
And now he is, is as, as they put it on the commentary track
playing from the back foot.
And that is the, that is the success of the winter soldier here in this moment.
Jude: You know, it, it is interesting.
You mentioned the black lives matter movement.
The it's weird.
I want to say the heightened awareness.
Um, but that's, I don't think it actually accurately captures it.
Cause I think there's been the awareness of race and those issues for a long time.
It was just, you know, when was majority of people gonna notice,
um, but that's been going on for, for a long time anyways.
Um, but it did make me wonder, you know, watching the scene now that
is something that came to mind.
It was like, oh, here's a black man.
What's a police officer here and stopping them.
And then the police and police cars, they weren't in shield cars, like intentionally
box them in and try to get at them.
Um, and that definitely made me see the scene differently.
Um, And I don't know.
And I'd be honest from the books I've been reading lately and stuff like
I've had that, like, this has been very forefront in my mind anyways.
Uh, so it could be some of that as well, just from where my Headspace has been,
uh, in terms of what I've been doing.
But yeah, like that did really jump out to me.
Trey: Yeah.
Th that's why I was very conscious of framing it as the increased
documentation, because to say that this is something new would be an
entire disservice because it's not new.
It's just now we are paying attention.
And unfortunately it took this long to pay attention and to speak.
For me, that's a personal failing on me because I have been trying to be
more cognizant of it and learn, and it was something I wrestled with bringing
up at all, because it feels weird to talk about something so serious when
something so trivial as a Marvel movie, As precious as this movie has become.
And the subject matter that hit is taken on, I think it w it was
definitely worth mentioning not only for my own continued education and
hopefully pushing that forward, but just showing that this is, I think it is
intentional in, on the mind of the movie.
Um, and it's something that I know as a personal failings that
should have stuck out to me way before everything that happened.
Uh, so it, it, it felt important to, to bring it up here.
Jude: Okay.
I'm going to shift gears a little bit, cause, um, it feels like
inappropriate place to shift gears.
Um, still the same scene, uh, two things.
It would have been cool for me, if they would have brought back the
little torch light saber thing.
I know they did in this movie, I'm talking like that's a really cool gadget
that having that show up in feature movies, you know, it's like, Hey, we
have a really cool gadget and I'm done.
It's not going to help us in a sort of a war.
It's not going to help us, you know?
Um, who knows, maybe that's what cap and Natasha used to get
people off the raft prison thing.
And there's a trope I would like to have go away.
And it happened in this movie, Nick, Fury's on the phone with Maria Hill and
she's like, Hey, give me four hours.
And he's like, you have three.
And I'm like, huh?
I get you're expressing urgency, but come on, like Maria, Hill's a professional.
She knows what she's doing.
She needs four hours, right?
Like, like I don't, you know, I don't know what the extra
hour early is going to get you.
I just it's like stop, you know, it's
Trey: listen, that's something we need to do this year.
We need to keep a running list of things.
We want to see stop being used as a trope for me, I was in, I can't say it.
We don't have a spoiler zone.
Nevermind.
So go listen to our, uh, our hot guy.
If you want to know what I want to see gone.
But, uh, I get
Jude: what you mean.
We're not going to tell you which episode you got to listen to.
All of them.
Go find it.
Trey: That's marketing baby.
Jude: That's our own project insight.
Trey: My whole podcast.
Everybody's
oh man.
No, all I was going to say is like, I get the sentiment.
It's it's the same thing I'm saying, like, I need it yesterday,
but it is overdone at this point.
So you know what I, I think I'm behind you.
I can see it be gone.
Awesome.
Jude: I need you deep shadow, but I don't want you to, I want you to
do it so quickly that people will notice that you've disappeared
rather than casually late.
Trey: Come on.
Maybe Nick can take a few lessons on a few lessons from
Natasha and escaping public eye.
Hey, that's
Jude: right.
We're trying to get away.
Walk.
Don't run.
'cause you might trip,
Trey: you know, there's a part of me that almost feels bad for framing
this as a debate between Nick and Steve, because we see pretty quickly
that Nick fury gets humbled to the point that we see him allegedly die.
But the thing that I think so outstanding about their interaction is, you know,
you have Steve coming home to his apartment and it is a bit of an ominous
scene because there's music that's being played that he didn't leave.
And you have that whole interaction where Nick fury eventually reveals
that he had Steve's apartment bugged.
And Steve Rogers is unfortunately the only person that Nick fury
can trust at this point, because all of his fail safes have failed.
Um, and there's a moment where after the they're speaking code, Nick fury
says like, oh, the only people who know are just me and my friends and Nick
and Steve goes, is that what we are.
Nick fury has that response.
That is it's up to you.
And the thing that speaks volumes to me with that interaction is, you know, so
much of what I've learned of, of trust.
Cause I'll go out on that limb and just speak broadly here.
I have trust issues like that is something that I've struggled
with and, and trying to do better.
And one of the things that I have learned is that trust isn't the complete
confidence in the infallibility of someone and the way that you put your
trust in them, but the ability to create those boundaries and repair
them upon breach, if that does happen.
Um, and so having Nick fury say that's up to you, I think is beautiful because.
So much of what Steve Rogers thought he can trust in that
moment is being tested here.
And we know Nick Fury's trust has been long gone.
So it is this almost dramatic irony that the person who cannot
trust is turning to the person that is the only trustworthy person.
And the lesson that he's instilling in him is don't trust anyone.
So you have this Baton pass of the journey that Nick fury couldn't
overcome given to Steve Rogers.
And we are now having to wrestle with Steve Rogers, questioning
who it is that he can trust.
And to go just a little bit further on, this is again, I set it up in that.
So often characters like Steve Rogers are written to be quote unquote,
you know, the right thing to do.
The interesting thing you can do with these characters outside of
showing the ways that people around them change is showing that that
redefining of who it is they are.
And I, and I've, I've tried to set that up.
And the speaking of the delineation between Steve Rogers and captain
America, but this is the moment that those personalities have
split and our journey begins here.
And the thing I like is in this moment, when you see Steve pick up the shield,
it is the red, white, and blue shield.
And it is not that stealth one that I think is so symbolic of who he was with
shield, but this is a character who has now picked up the quest to figure out who
he is and what it is that trust means.
Jude: Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
And the first thing that happens, you know, well, it go back to the,
we talk about it and you love it.
The story circle, right.
Hero's journey, and you have the mentor and it sits them off on the
journey and they hand them some kind of talisman or something.
And fury gave them an object, you know, um, that, that he had to go and run with.
Um, but then on top of that, the wrinkle they throw in is agent
13, busted, Hey, I made you 13.
I'm here to protect you on whose orders and his and its fury.
So it's like you have this conversation, you know, are we friends?
You know, the response that's up to you.
It's like, it's your choice?
Like, you know, cause it is that thing of like, when you trust somebody, it
is your choice to trust them, right?
Like, like it's your trust you're placing over.
And the first thing that happens is, oh, I've been, I've been being spied on
by the person needing me to trust them, but also telling me not to trust anyone.
Like, like it's, it's such a, a clever, I think wrinkle.
Um, then I think maybe it gets overlooked a little bit, you know?
And because we just, maybe as an audience, just assume, um, we
know who Nick fury is, you know?
Um, and, and so it's like, ah, obviously you can trust a mistake theory.
Um, but if you, like you said, if you put yourself in Roger's
spot, uh, and, and thinking about in those terms, It tracks Rogers.
Isn't quite sure if he can trust them.
Um, and, and that was also part of the whole opening sequence and setting
that up, uh, the busting in of, I mean, if you did that same thing, right.
Without Asian 13 busting in, I'm gonna say Rogers is the one that
makes the call to EMT and then chases.
Um, and I think it's a completely different dynamic and that's,
and it's such a small moment.
Trey: Yeah.
It it's it, I mean, it's the same thing that Nick fury goes through.
It's the, everything around you falling apart.
And so even the things that Steve thought was real, this is where it
begins with with agent 13 coming in.
You can't even trust that small interaction.
So what is real in this life that I have been living,
Jude: you've been wondering that all your life true,
Trey: I'm telling you trust issue.
And so there's two things that I want to cover here, branching off
of this, you know, I highlighted how it is picking up the shield.
That is the start of this journey for Steve Rogers.
I love that moment other than it just being a really cool moment.
But when he chases down the winter soldier and he throws that shield and
the winter soldier turns around and catches it outside of just being a cool
way to establish this character, it is a narrative imbued action sequence that
says, I know this is who you are trying to be, but you are not ready for this.
And so even though the shield is the first thing, he picks up the fact that it gets
tossed back to him, it's like, come back to me when you're ready kind of thing.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Um, in fact, I just take a boat real quick.
Oh.
And Twitter, our friend Ellie from Neeoshi podcast.
Uh, thanks.
Speaks to my heart actually.
Um, instead of actually saying what it was used as a gift, uh, of that moment,
Bucky catching the shield on the roof.
Um, cause it is such an iconic moment.
Um, but you're right.
It is like, yeah, come back to me when you're ready kind of moment,
which is not something Rogers has had to, to, to face really.
I mean, again, shred school, I guess.
Um, but beyond that he hasn't, you know, I mean, yeah.
Okay.
There's a story.
Like it wasn't a one-on-one that was more numbers.
If that makes sense, where it was like, oh, this is an equal.
Um, so in that it's different to
Trey: that example, you know, when we talked about red skull
and the Atari, I mean, that is the one note nature of Steve Rogers.
He is good.
He is strong.
He is the good guy, but what they have done here in this moment, or at least
what I read in it is because Steve Rogers is now questioning who, you
know, this is who the world sees me as.
Who am I?
And who do I want to be?
And that is what he's left and armed with.
And so.
You know what I was talking about, the irony of Nick fury passing
this Baton to them of trust.
And then the next scene we get is in the hospital scene where even Natasha is
questioning, can I trust Steve Rogers?
So not only have they narratively taking down the infallible structure
of Steve Rogers within the audience's perception, sort of, but also within
himself of like he's having to trust, like if he can trust Natasha.
And I feel like I've said trust a lot, so I'm going to stop and think.
Jude: So this movie is about friends and interest.
It's not about that.
All right.
VIN.
I've never seen a single one of those movies, but okay.
So, and my buddy, Jonathan, when he gets around to listen to this who
loves that and not like, he's like, oh, he's a Christian about a masterpiece,
but like just loves it in terms of, um, just fun and like I'm in I've.
Yeah.
I've never seen a single one, but in fairness, he makes the mistake of thinking
the dark nights better than Batman begins.
So anyways,
Trey: we're going to move on from here, but I just want to point out,
I think that's a pretty widely held.
I believe a lot of among a lot of people.
Jude: That's unfortunate for them
Trey: now.
I just wanted to make sure, cause you made it sound like he's in the
wrong for believing that I think, uh, a lot of people would use that
as a bolster to his point, but I can also, cause I agree with you.
I think narratively Batman begins is probably better, but I was wondering
Jude: just because the majority thinks something doesn't mean it's right.
Trey: I don't think it's the discredit to his belief that you think
just saying, God, do we have to keep this in now?
I know this is going to be fun.
Well, I think that's going to wrap it up for the first act of this movie.
So we're going to go ahead and move in to the second act.
Now, this one is going to take us through the meeting that Steve Rogers has with
Alexander Pierce all the way through the moment where Steve Nat and Sam are
arrested after the bridge fight scene.
So starting with me this time, I think the obvious place to start here is
that meeting with Alexander Pierce.
You know, we talked about it a bit in the first act of.
Uh, movie that Alexander Pierce really is the embodiment of the things
that Nick fury was wrestling with.
Um, and I think what they do that is, is commonplace.
Now, I think with praise that we give Marvel and their villains, but at the
time, I think was a little, uh, it was more special because it felt like it
wasn't as commonplace, but you really get to see the ideology of Alexander
Pierce and see that even though he's wrong, this is something that he believes
full-heartedly and it is even something.
That he doesn't see as wrong.
He truly believes that he is bringing order, but that speech he gives about
like, you know, Nick fury is my friend and said, think that people that
murdered him could be happy today.
And because it just makes me sick.
And then going on to talk about like, you know, people will call you dirty
because you're willing to put your hands in the mud and do what's right.
Like all this is, is talking the talk like he's showing that he wants
to be the good person, but the slow uncovering of the reality of the
intent, I think is what makes him such a compelling antagonist here.
Jude: And again, I've mentioned it earlier in a way fury and Pierce
are very similar in terms of that.
I, that idea of what it means to protect others and the
things you need to do to do so.
Um, you know, and I don't know why what's what sticks also, what sticks
out to me with Pierce is I wonder.
And this is so weird because I, I agree with you of the backstory
that like we were getting this here.
Um, and it was such a good villain.
I think Robert Redford did such a great job with it.
I do wonder what made him join Hydra?
You know, like, like what was that shift that said, yes, this is, you know, I'm,
I'm all in here because clearly for me, if Pearson fury are very similar ideology
wise, but fear is not Hydra and Pierce is so, like, there was something that,
that triggered that conversion, so to speak or over this edge to, to go full
on Hydra and as close friends, as I said, they were, you didn't bring fury along.
So like he knew something about, about fury and that
would be something really cool.
For me to see maybe to explore, I don't, I don't know the best way to put it.
Not that I'm asking, let's go back and have a series on peers.
Um, you know, I'm not, not saying that, but it, but it is for as much information
as we get, um, especially you're right up to this point in the MCU, like it was a
really well-developed villain, you know, I'm curious, like what pushes that person?
Like what, what was the thought process there, or, or even like
what was in the mind of the writers and the Russo brothers, you know?
And, um, when they thought, oh, this is the way this person would get.
Trey: You know, I, I really think it is because, I mean, if you listen
to the way they talk about their mission, it's like the world is on
a balance between order and chaos and we're going to give it a push.
Like they genuinely believe that what they're doing will bring order and
it will bring peace because they do not like low-key believe that people
can maintain their own happiness and their own peace that it is something
that has to be instilled to them.
And so I don't think it's something that happens overnight, but if you
keep operating under this belief that I have to go to these extremes
to justify the ends eventually.
You stopped being shocked by what the extremes are.
And I think that's like, it's just, it's a S uh, a point of no return that I B Debbie
comes indistinguishable for the, yeah.
Jude: Talking about extremism.
Two things come to mind, um, which orders first quick clarification on
one of my thoughts and something you said about Loki, um, and it, again, and
it ties it to this extremism thought was, you know, wondering about Pearson
that switch to, to have that attitude of like, we can't trust people, right.
We, we have to subdue people.
They can't have this freedom because they can't be trusted.
You know, Loki's Loki, he's a, you know, a trickster, but for Pierce to do.
You know, he's really elevating himself above the rest of humanity.
Right.
And putting himself in that position of like, I am judged.
Uh, and so that's a really interesting place.
The like how do you get there as a person to say, like, I
am the one who decides that.
Um, but man, when you, when you think about the extremist view,
there's tons of examples that we can think of that are extremist views.
Um, especially if he's thinking in terms of military action, like.
Like, that's what he does.
Right.
Um, in, in this, in this world of security, through mite and you know, what
are the, when you're talking, one of the first things that came to mind in terms
of extremist was, um, you know, I talked a lot about with one of my classes, uh,
general Curtis LeMay from world war two.
And, and it has involvement in his shaping of the U S air force
and, and those types of things.
And he was almost pretty like maybe a notch, less extreme than the UK guy.
I can't remember his first name, but it's his, his, um, nickname was bomber Harris.
And, you know, for him it was total war.
Like there was no such thing as a non-combatant, you know, like
you in some way as a civilian.
Supported the war effort.
So therefore I could bomb you.
And there were, you know, and, and, and you have, what was it, the
firebombings of, uh, Dresden, um, which was just horrific and LeMay later
with the fire bombings of Tokyo, um, before we even dropped the nuclear
bombs, which were just horrific.
And when it came from that extremist view of total war, nobody's a
non-combatant and this is what gets results and we need results.
Um, and so it's like, we've.
So I just find that, that interesting is it's it's there in this movie, but
like, man, we we've seen it so many times as well throughout human history.
Trey: Yeah.
And, and, and again, like I said, I, it was interesting.
I was listening to the audio commentary today, but I had only finished
half my notes up until that point.
So after it got passed, where I had taken notes, I stopped because
I didn't want it to influence, um, what I was interpreting from the
movie itself on a, on a cold watch.
But the thing that I think was present on their mind when they
were going into this movie was a lot of real world inspirations.
They were taken from both from movies, but also this idea that if, okay, we're
going to do a political thriller, how can we instill some of those real world
examples into this fictitious world?
Um, so I'm, I'm glad you've found a way to highlight that, uh, that
echoes here, what they are focusing
Jude: on.
Well, and I remember when it came.
Um, it was super timely and the Edward Snowden, uh, stuff that, you know,
like came out around the same time, the things that he brought to light.
And it was just really interesting to me because.
This was written and in filmed and in production way before that
happened, it just happened to, you know, to be timely in that way.
Um, you know, and, and people were making that connection, but we're
like what the extremism, I mean, we find that all over the place.
Trey: You know, I, I do have a question for you because I've talked to about it
before, how this movie is, is one of my favorites, because it will forever hold
that revelation with Bucky, for me, which is something I don't know how I got all
the way to the end, but I think it just demonstrates how sucked into the movie
I was and was, it was just letting it be in front of me as I was watching it.
Were you picking up on Alexander Pierce by this point?
Or were you still questioning who you could trust?
And I'll set the stage by saying like, obviously you can tell something's
up with Alexander Pierce, but I can't help within the same act.
But think to that scene of what that revelation is, whenever
the winter soldier is in his.
And the scene goes from like, oh, is he in trouble to, oh, he's familiar enough
to do the joke about the milk too, watching him cold blood murder somebody.
And I just remember thinking like, okay, I know this is not a good character,
but the extent to which he goes, I remember just being a shock to me.
And I I'm wondering if that's just exclusive to me letting the movie
be or what another perception of all of this character was.
I'm
Jude: trying to remember back when I first watched it.
I don't think.
Yeah.
Like I think it was suspicious, but I don't think I was
convinced until that scene.
You know, now getting Robert Redford was a huge kit.
I remember that.
And, and, and that was a big kit and, you know, and he had played spy thriller
roles before, um, and other movies.
Um, and so, so in, in that way, that, that was kind of a nice, um, thing,
thing to see, and maybe, maybe a tip off, but no, I, I wasn't fully
sure until he, until he shot Renata.
Yeah.
Trey: Whatever.
I mean, it's in a movie that we're supposed to question everything it is.
It is.
And then maybe this is the benefit of hindsight.
Fantastic.
That they can make a character like Pierce with some pretty extreme values, still be
on that cusp of, of where he is falling, uh, within the role of this movie.
Yeah.
So it feels like we're getting pretty close to the infamous elevator scene.
Uh, but I do want to take some time here to step back and set up a character we
really haven't spoken about at all yet.
And that is rum lo uh, rum low is a fascinating character to me because
at the beginning of the movie, you see that there is this working
friendship between Steve and rum.
Lo you have that playful banter at the beginning where rum
lo has shot the, uh, pirate.
And Steve is like, Hey, thanks.
And he's like, yeah, you've seen pretty helpless without me.
The way that we've watched the falling out between these two, uh, and, and
especially leading into the meeting with Pierce in the aggressiveness,
in which he's like, Hey, they, they want you in for questioning.
And he's like, okay.
Yeah.
He was like, they want you now.
And Steve's like, all right, you, the slow grow of tension between
them too is such a fantastic buildup to this moment where he ultimately
betrays him here in the elevator.
Um, and I got one joke before I throw it to you, you know, it's, I wonder
how much Hydra would still be secret if they were so much better at being
subtle, because all those nervous men getting into that elevator was so
funny to me and different hindsights now that we know how that plays out
Jude: well, I'm imagining not rum low, right?
Cause low is full on hydro, right?
Like he he's bought in.
I imagine some of those other guys are just like, yeah, whatever the pay is.
Good.
You know, I have the, have the skill set.
Uh, cause I just got back, you know, finished my, finished my tour and this
I'm getting recruited here and I need a job and now you want me to do what?
Okay.
Like.
Like, I'm just imagining like, like one of those other guys who was
like, yeah, we need you to like trap captain America in an elevator.
And it's like, what do you want me to get in the elevator with cap?
Like, I can't, I can't get away.
Oh, don't worry.
Don't worry.
We're gonna, we're going to send a bunch of other guys with you cause I, okay.
Thanks.
Trey: Well, to go in further in the commentary track, the writers
and directors specifically said that that the inspiration for
that scene is what would it like?
What would it be like to send 10, highly trained, to been in a cage with a gorilla?
That is the, what they're trying to convey.
So.
I guess they nailed it because I too would be nervous.
But man, Rumble's poker face is terrible where he's like, Hey, uh, do you
want me to go send out the TAC team?
And then, uh, Steve's like, no, let's, let's wait to hear
back from forensics burgers.
He's like, oh, okay.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Jude: It was, it is a fantastic scene.
Um, I think man, the only thing that's ever come that close to doing it that well
was teen Pelton and community, I guess, but no, like it was, it was, it was great.
Like, and I think what was so great about it is, is how believable.
Um, cause cause you had the, so many people in there, like if he just
went through him and it was no big deal, but they have to fight off the
magnets to have the struggle, to be 1.1 handed like it, they did such
a good job of making it believable.
Trey: Yeah.
It makes sense.
Why again, when we put out the question on social media, uh, Sean from caption
life and Ben dot Maddie, both referred to this scene as one of the first
memorable scenes, whenever you think about winter soldier and I mean it's with
good cause um, you know, I personally coming from the angle that I always
come from with captain America, to me, the thing that makes it so special is.
Even though Steve Rogers has been pushed to this perspective, in that he
doesn't know who he can trust anymore.
Uh, he doesn't know what he stands for, but in that elevator scene, as he's
clearly deduced that these people are here to, to capture him, he politely
asks them, does anybody want to get off that's grace that he's extending
before, like that chance to do the right thing before it breaks loose is
such a pivotal captain America moment.
And
Jude: I love it.
It's, it's such a good way to break the tension too, because
like, you know, something's going down, Rumbo has a terrible poker
face, CAPP knows something's going down and you're just waiting.
It's like, okay, what's going to happen.
What's what's it going to be like, what's, what's the trigger, you know?
And, and calf just like, okay, we're doing this.
And, you know, um, in fact, And changed your mind captain, the aggressor, if
he wouldn't have asked that they would just, and they felt scared because like,
they're all dude, we're in the elevator, we're going down to forensics and then
cap all of a sudden, out of nowhere, it was like, Hey, anybody want to get off?
And you're like, oh my gosh, he's going to go off on us.
So let's get them first.
I think cap was the bad guy in the scene.
Trey: Yeah, because before that moment, everybody's like, no, you move first.
That cap is essentially the person that let the arrow fly at the battle.
Oh man.
By the end of this, are we just going to realize that
captain America is the villain?
Yes.
Don't you dare don't you dare.
Oh, well you know what again?
And I'll go ahead and say this now I'll have more to explain.
As we get into later acts.
This movie.
But to me, I think whenever captain America stories are working at their
highest potential, it is when they are treating the shield as its own character.
And so I talked about that in the apartment scene where, you know,
that's him picking it up, Bucky stops it and throws it back to him.
You're not ready for this.
I like that.
The shield doesn't get to get used here that much.
It is kind of quickly taken away from him.
He takes the, the elevator out and then that he has that cool moment where
he kicks it back up to his arm and the escape continues and he uses it.
Jude: Cut the cord to make the, to make the lift the elevator fall down.
Trey: Yeah, he does that.
And then he uses it the way to break his fall when he falls.
But the moment I'm hanging up particular is like, after he takes out that Quinjet
the way that he comes, crashing down and slams into the ground and does that cool,
you know, poser move where he kind of looks off to the side, pass the camera.
It just feels like such a great declaration of like this shield is.
Like I have reclaimed this from the capital S shield and I'm going
to use it for what it is that I think is the moral thing to do.
Um, and so I don't know.
It just, it felt like a moving story piece there within the actual
story that they're telling you.
Jude: No, I think you're spot on.
Um, well I know you're spot on because again, I can keep
going back to the commentary.
Please listen to the commentary when you're done with our pod,
go check out the commentary.
But when they said that, that, that I, if I remember right, they
said they wanted to, to really emphasize in the use of the shield.
And I don't remember.
Yeah.
In captain America first Avenger.
Oh, Uh, the first Avengers, film him using the shield other than
just like throwing it, you know, and here they got really creative.
Like you said that with not just using the apartment, but the ways in which
he was able to utilize the shield.
Um, and this is the first place where we see it, and that was an
intentional choice and something that the writers and directors wanted to do.
And again, the it's a whole suspension of disbelief, but, um,
that, that they're asking right.
It wasn't difficult to do because they did so well.
Trey: You know, I want to circle back to what you were saying
about how you mentioned that elevator fight feels believable.
The thing that I kept finding myself, coming in conflict was stepping
back and thinking, okay, this is a little UN not even realistic.
It's asking you to, to look away a bit, but because we are centered in a superhero
world, this fantastical nature of 10 guys going against one, or, uh, Nick
fury going through this car chase and, and doing all these destructions, like
it is so over the top, but in comparison to some of the other things we've seen
the MCU do, it does feel more grounded.
And so it's, it's, it's an interesting balance that they're finding and
doing some over the top stuff, but in a way that feels, uh, Human.
Jude: Well, and you see it again.
It's, it's the Russo brothers choice in, in directing and filmmaking to go to that
handheld tight closeups for the action.
And we're doing of our soldiers.
I don't, I don't want to get too far down the show, but like for
me, there was a distinct difference when you're watching civil war.
Where I feel like you can watch it.
And there's a point where it's like, why'd you change what they're doing?
Uh, meaning you still have that kind of that handheld close action, but then
here, then all of a sudden it changes and you kind of get that standard wide shot.
You can see everything and watch them fight.
Um, and, and I don't know why they made that, that intentional change of choice.
I haven't listened to that commentary yet actually.
Uh, but I'm sure it's just as good.
Um, no, I actually have listened to that one.
It's just been years.
Um, cause I was like, first thing I did when I got the DVD, but I
think that's part of what makes it.
That feel real and believable cause we're up close.
Trey: Yeah.
I can't speak too much because a lot of times when it comes to the actual
style of filmmaking, that's a, that's an area of weakness for me and why
I love doing this because of the way you pointed out, but I can't speak to
civil war, but, uh, what it does here, it has that frenetic energy to it.
And, uh, and it's something we've looked at before and something that I've talked
about, why I was so excited about is that physical hand-to-hand nature, uh,
that we don't get enough of in the MCU.
Um, and, and then we've had some pretty good examples of it here within
this movie that we've covered so far, but really, and that elevator scene
feels like just the next level of where we started on that boat scene.
So the next place we go to after Steve has escaped from shield and
has now been deemed a fugitive on the run, uh, is he goes to retrieve
the USB that Nick fury entrusted to him that he hid in the hospital.
And lo and behold, Natasha is the one who got to it before him.
What did you think of this scene of them together as they're
poking at who it is they can trust
Jude: versus it is actually, I think this scene is a standout
of the chemistry between Chris Evans and Scarlett Johannson.
This scene actually now brings me slight disappointment feelings.
Um, but it is what we talked about earlier that learning how to
trust each other and be friends.
So to speak, um, rather than just, Hey, we work together.
And so, yeah, so like th this scene is, um, you know, like that, those
are the things that kind of mind, and honestly, again, hindsight or
watching it now that disappointment is.
You know, she describes how winter soldier shot her.
And that was something I was hoping to see, like in a flashback
in the black widow movie.
And so, and so now seeing it here, that that honestly was the first
thing that came to mind was like, oh,
Trey: and you know, it's they even talk about it on the commentary track, where
they wanted to, like, they had this more elaborate history that they had together
that they just didn't get to delve into.
Um, so yeah, I can see it being a bit of a shame that we never got
to it, which speaks to the horrible discredit the MCU has done to Natasha
and not giving more for stories.
But,
Jude: uh, yeah, because, because, because when you don't give that ju you know,
just a quick thought when you don't give that, like, it's now more winter soldier
story than hers, you know, And it's again, it's like, well, we need that story to
serve a purpose of building up winter soldier, not adding depth to Natasha.
Trey: You know, you did frame this as, this is the beginning of them moving from
being friends, because we worked together.
Into, okay.
We are we're friends because of who we are and what we like about
the things that we stand for.
Um, you know, I, I like how it starts with this common goal of they
together need to solve your murder.
And the thing that I think stood out to me that I found just such a fun
irony, I guess, in the narrative, is that the thing that gets Steve to
trust Natasha is Natasha admitting that she only pretends to know everything.
And the thing that's, that's interesting to me about that is part of who she is
part of her skillset is that deception.
And so the fact that in that moment of vulnerability, Steve is able
to trust her in, in her revealing.
She doesn't really know, you know, 10 steps ahead.
I thought that was just a.
Beautiful exchange between them that speaks to the
chemistry that the actors had.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know what, uh, we have decided that this is going to be the
first part of what is now a two-part discussion of the winter soldier.
Definitely because of it being one of my favorite movies, I've had a lot to say,
Jude, I know you've had a lot to say,
Jude: so rather than.
You texted me and you were like, I'm two minutes in and have six pages of notes.
Trey: I subsequently texted Tara later that night and I said, we're recording
our winter soldier review tomorrow.
And I have to let you know, I'm 41 minutes into the movie and I have 18 pages of
notes to which he said, I'm down for a three plus hour episode of winter soldier,
or you have to post her notes online.
And all of that to say, I have finished my notes at three, or
I'll say this
Jude: because those notes are going to have to end up somewhere.
They might,
Trey: I, I might share them somewhere.
If people
Jude: are interested in socials discord somewhere, let us know.
Trey: I tell you what if people want to see my notes tweet at us
or Instagram at MC you need to know, uh, enough people ask all.
But I'll, I'll leave at this cause this is, uh, you know, this movie
is very important to me and because of shonky, I've been doing a lot of
really reevaluating of my top five.
And I've even talked with you like these, these movies are super
close to me in a way that goes beyond being just Marvel movies.
Um, the experience of doing a watch for podcast prep, I think
reinvigorated watching in a way that I haven't felt before.
And I'll be honest because I've talked about it.
I've cried easy when it comes to movies, it doesn't even
have to be like a sad moment.
Like if a movie is just really, really good, I start crying.
Don't know why just do it
Jude: because you should, because you're invested and
the creators did their job too.
They were to make you feel something.
Trey: And I did that in this, and I haven't felt that in a long
time watching winter soldier, because I have watched it a lot.
And so getting to do this made me so happy.
And I think that is what led to 30 pages of
Jude: now.
That's awesome.
That is amazing.
That is a face.
And I knew going in, like, I'm going to have to sit back and just let Trey go.
Like, like I knew, so, yeah.
So
Trey: yeah, so rather than trying to rush through to get this into a one
part, uh, we are going to go ahead and do this as a two-part, uh, coverage.
So we'll put a pause on it here.
Jude, I'm going to turn to you before we go.
If somebody is listening to this and they've decided, you know what, I'm going
to watch winter soldier this weekend, what is something you think they need
to zone in on as they go through the parts that we haven't covered yet?
Jude: The first thing that comes to mind from my notes is going to be.
And I didn't pick up on it before.
I I'm sure somebody else has picked up on it.
There's some interesting, like philosophical questions that came to mind
with the existence of our aren't in Zola.
And seeing where we're at culturally now with technology, um, like, you know,
earlier we just joked about like cat being the bad guy kind of, kind of thing,
but there is an irony of like winter.
Soldier's awesome.
Yeah.
You can't track us like that.
And like, Hey, I'm sitting in my living room doing this and tagging
where I'm at and like freely giving away the information, uh,
that, all this personal stuff.
And so there's an irony to me there.
Um, and so thinking about those things, um, as what is trying to accomplish and
what, what captain America's argument against hydrogens, especially in that,
in kind of scene speech he gives.
Yeah, that's good.
I like that a lot.
You anything to zone in on?
Nah, just, just
Trey: enjoy it.
Just shut up and cry.
Jude: Bring the tissues, the tissues ready?
No salt or butter.
Cause you get that in the eyes.
It's going to suck.
Oh,
Trey: gross.
You know, if I had to sum it up, I would do this, you know, so much
of the discussion that I've had is talking about the ways they have
found making Steve Rogers interesting and changing internally, and
really having a question who he is.
The thing that I think the second half of the movie does really well
is not only does it get Steve to a point of resolve of who he is.
It continues that track of captain America inspiring the best out of others.
And there are so many instances in which that happens.
But the thing that I want to keep in mind is how this is just as much black
widow story as it is captain Americas, and the way that plays out within
the second half of the film, I think is really important to look in on.
So, uh, there's a lot of characters where this takes place, but Natasha and Steve in
particular are two ends of a spectrum of a modern world that I think is that stands
out to me the more and more that I watch
Jude: it.
That's awesome.
Thank you.
I'm going to go rewatch it this weekend and focus in on that.
Trey: Well, fantastic.
Well, you know, what, if that's you as well, you can always let
us know at MC we need to know both on Twitter and Instagram.
Uh, we've been doing a lot of work to put up extra content.
Uh, we've been doing new things such as kind of doing quizzes for
the movies that we're recovering.
I think that's something we're going to try and do.
So if, for example, we do civil war next.
If you're on our social media, we're going to have some posts that are, have fun.
Trivia is fill in the quotes and things of that nature.
So if you want to get in on the fun, make sure that you're following us at MC you
need to know on Twitter and Instagram.
Jude: And of course, scroll down to the bottom of the show
notes, click on the discord.
Let us know if you want to see Trey's notes.
Uh, let us know.
Cat dog person was fury crazy.
Um, and a couple of others.
Fun things in there, um, that all of us love to talk about risks, other
movies, games, all kinds of stuff.
Make sure when you get there to click on the role, assign, click
on the emojis so you can get access to all the spoiler channels.
And of course, to really help us out, leave a rating review on apple
podcast and Spotify or whatever place you're listening to podcast.
It accepts those things.
And of course, share with your friends.
Trey: Yeah.
We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which is his
rendition of the Avengers thinking he can find more of his work on a SoundCloud,
which is linked in the show notes as well.
Well, that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you, Trey.
We'll see you all next week.
Boom.
That's the first half.
All right.
You ready?
For the second part?
Jude: That might be our in tech.
Trey: We don't want to rush this.
So we're going to go ahead and call it here.
Jumps right into.
Oh,
that was fun.