WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.990 Matt Abrahams: The ability to collaborate well with others, to learn, to do, 00:00:03.990 --> 00:00:08.095 to plan, often determines the success of your relationships, both in your 00:00:08.095 --> 00:00:10.475 personal and professional lives. 00:00:10.890 --> 00:00:14.160 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:16.140 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.470 --> 00:00:21.119 Welcome to this Quick Thinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:21.570 --> 00:00:25.680 I had a fantastic, insightful conversation with Molly Sands, who 00:00:25.680 --> 00:00:28.030 heads up the Teamwork Lab at Atlassian. 00:00:28.145 --> 00:00:31.295 Molly shared so many valuable skills and ideas that we couldn't 00:00:31.295 --> 00:00:32.915 put them all in one episode. 00:00:33.065 --> 00:00:36.635 So here comes some more practical, tactical tips on how to 00:00:36.635 --> 00:00:40.805 collaborate better and institute important collaborative rituals. 00:00:42.425 --> 00:00:45.515 I know a lot of what you do as a company, but you personally 00:00:45.515 --> 00:00:47.195 is focus on collaboration. 00:00:47.595 --> 00:00:53.085 And I'd love for you to explain to me what effective collaboration 00:00:53.085 --> 00:00:54.615 is and how do you assess that? 00:00:54.615 --> 00:00:55.905 How do you assess collaboration? 00:00:55.905 --> 00:00:56.415 What is it? 00:00:56.745 --> 00:01:00.435 And then do you have a one or two best practices to help us all be better 00:01:00.435 --> 00:01:01.695 in the collaboration that we do? 00:01:01.815 --> 00:01:04.905 Molly Sands: Yeah, I think a ton about this, and I think it's one 00:01:04.905 --> 00:01:06.795 of the biggest challenges, right? 00:01:06.795 --> 00:01:11.895 How do you measure this thing that feels so ephemeral in so many ways? 00:01:11.895 --> 00:01:13.690 Matt Abrahams: I think most people default to just measure the output 00:01:14.135 --> 00:01:17.825 of the collaboration, but the quality of the collaboration and the depth of 00:01:17.825 --> 00:01:19.355 the collaboration are also important. 00:01:19.505 --> 00:01:20.045 Molly Sands: Yeah. 00:01:20.045 --> 00:01:24.005 And measuring the output does not tell you if people are doing the right 00:01:24.005 --> 00:01:27.755 thing, and I think that is a really big challenge that most companies face. 00:01:28.155 --> 00:01:32.415 I'm a fan of having a variety of metrics that you're looking at when 00:01:32.415 --> 00:01:36.315 you're thinking about collaboration so you do get a more robust picture. 00:01:36.525 --> 00:01:41.055 And part of that is are these groups reaching their goals? 00:01:41.475 --> 00:01:43.310 Are they achieving the things that they set out to do? 00:01:43.955 --> 00:01:47.945 And in order to do that, you need to be consistently evolving goals. 00:01:48.305 --> 00:01:52.475 We see in a lot of companies, it's a very set it and forget it kind of thing, right? 00:01:52.475 --> 00:01:55.985 We do this big performative thing at the start of the fiscal year, 00:01:55.985 --> 00:01:59.285 and then at the end you scramble to say, did it happen or not? 00:01:59.825 --> 00:02:04.415 And so we created a lot of goal rituals for teams to help them 00:02:04.415 --> 00:02:06.365 continually assess their progress. 00:02:06.635 --> 00:02:08.765 That doesn't mean that if you're off track for a week, it's an 00:02:08.765 --> 00:02:10.655 issue, but you wanna know, right? 00:02:10.655 --> 00:02:14.355 You wanna pick up those patterns over time, and you wanna redirect. 00:02:14.595 --> 00:02:19.125 And capturing data about what people are trying to achieve and if they are able 00:02:19.125 --> 00:02:23.715 to achieve it, and how well, is huge for being able to assess collaboration. 00:02:23.924 --> 00:02:28.035 It's also really important to understand the experience within teams. 00:02:28.245 --> 00:02:33.690 And you see that teams experiences are very predictive of things like 00:02:33.690 --> 00:02:38.519 output and success and how often they achieve what they set out to do and 00:02:38.519 --> 00:02:40.140 how quickly they're able to get there. 00:02:40.410 --> 00:02:46.799 So I really do think it's valuable to survey teams to understand, do 00:02:46.829 --> 00:02:49.109 people you know feel safe speaking up? 00:02:49.109 --> 00:02:50.910 Do they have good psychological safety? 00:02:50.910 --> 00:02:54.630 We know that's a strong predictor of their outcomes, both in how quickly 00:02:54.630 --> 00:02:58.720 they can move and how likely they are to achieve what they want to do. 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:02.080 We also really wanna look at clarity. 00:03:02.380 --> 00:03:05.080 Do people understand what their roles are in teams? 00:03:05.200 --> 00:03:08.980 This is really critical for being successful. 00:03:09.010 --> 00:03:13.450 If I know it's my job to move that forward, or I need to care about 00:03:13.450 --> 00:03:17.415 this and think about what's gonna happen next, it makes it much easier 00:03:17.755 --> 00:03:19.900 for us to all move quickly together. 00:03:20.290 --> 00:03:22.690 We do look at things like speed as well. 00:03:23.100 --> 00:03:27.015 Are team's able to quickly assemble around a problem and then move forward 00:03:27.375 --> 00:03:29.535 and get through tasks and output. 00:03:29.535 --> 00:03:33.855 I still think output is relevant, but it just can't be that complete picture. 00:03:34.185 --> 00:03:36.105 Matt Abrahams: So many rich things that you said there. 00:03:36.105 --> 00:03:39.734 I wanna make sure I get an example from you what a ritual is around 00:03:39.734 --> 00:03:42.765 helping people review goals, 'cause that, that sounds really important. 00:03:42.765 --> 00:03:46.454 I'd love to know what that could look like, but it sounds like as people who 00:03:46.454 --> 00:03:49.905 are leading meetings, leading teams, fostering collaboration, we have to be 00:03:49.905 --> 00:03:51.855 paying attention to how we're doing it. 00:03:51.870 --> 00:03:52.980 Not just what we're doing. 00:03:53.130 --> 00:03:58.890 Do you spend time training leaders, managers, facilitators on how to do that? 00:03:58.890 --> 00:04:00.960 Because you know, I was a manager for a long time. 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.550 I know a lot of people who manage and lead. 00:04:02.880 --> 00:04:05.130 I'm not sure they've ever received advice and guidance 00:04:05.130 --> 00:04:06.750 on how to do that piece of it. 00:04:06.810 --> 00:04:10.620 And so I'd love to, to hear what you do to help train people. 00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:12.810 And I would love to get a goal ritual from you. 00:04:13.075 --> 00:04:13.645 Molly Sands: Yes. 00:04:13.705 --> 00:04:18.325 So a lot of what my team focuses on is teaching people better ways of working. 00:04:18.505 --> 00:04:22.735 So we work with managers, leaders, teams, people at every level of the 00:04:22.735 --> 00:04:27.955 organization to help them implement rituals and habits, goals is a good 00:04:27.955 --> 00:04:32.185 example that we can talk about, that make them more likely to achieve success. 00:04:32.605 --> 00:04:36.295 We have an amazing resource called the Atlassian Team Playbook, where we put 00:04:36.295 --> 00:04:41.875 a lot of our research and tested best practices together as guidance for teams. 00:04:42.025 --> 00:04:45.235 So that's one of the ways that we make this available to everyone. 00:04:45.235 --> 00:04:49.735 It's free on our website, so if you wanna learn more about any of these rituals 00:04:49.735 --> 00:04:51.325 or practices, you can find it there. 00:04:51.445 --> 00:04:52.945 But let's start with the goal example. 00:04:52.945 --> 00:04:55.045 So we track all of our goals. 00:04:55.045 --> 00:04:58.515 They're available, and we, whenever possible, make them 00:04:58.515 --> 00:05:00.465 viewable by anyone in the company. 00:05:00.615 --> 00:05:03.735 And every month teams score their goal. 00:05:03.735 --> 00:05:09.885 We use an OKR based system and they will give it a score and track progress on 00:05:09.885 --> 00:05:14.145 any metrics that are relevant at that point, and write a Tweet sized update. 00:05:14.505 --> 00:05:17.655 And anyone in the company can take a look at that goal and 00:05:17.655 --> 00:05:19.695 see what that update looks like. 00:05:19.935 --> 00:05:25.049 And every quarter we'll review those goals and say, does this still make sense? 00:05:25.109 --> 00:05:29.609 Given everything that we have learned from the work we've done here, is this still 00:05:29.609 --> 00:05:31.320 the right thing to be working towards? 00:05:31.320 --> 00:05:33.299 Has our strategy changed in any way? 00:05:33.539 --> 00:05:35.700 We're not reevaluating that every day. 00:05:35.789 --> 00:05:40.080 You can never make progress if you think about the big picture at every second. 00:05:40.080 --> 00:05:41.789 Sometimes you really need to execute. 00:05:42.030 --> 00:05:43.770 And then we tie those goals to projects. 00:05:43.950 --> 00:05:48.599 So any significant effort that is going into moving the needle on that thing 00:05:48.930 --> 00:05:54.710 gets connected to a goal, and teams reflect on progress for projects in a 00:05:54.710 --> 00:05:57.590 similar Tweet sized update every week. 00:05:58.335 --> 00:06:02.715 Matt Abrahams: So it's time-based and it's about being explicit and 00:06:02.715 --> 00:06:05.685 making it available for everybody to see, so people are accountable. 00:06:05.685 --> 00:06:09.375 You're putting this out and people will see it, but also allows others 00:06:09.375 --> 00:06:13.785 to check in and see what's going on, and that ritualized nature, time-based 00:06:13.785 --> 00:06:16.785 nature, every month, every quarter, every week can be really helpful. 00:06:17.055 --> 00:06:17.745 Thank you for that. 00:06:17.745 --> 00:06:21.375 I think all of us can benefit by thinking about how we can collaborate 00:06:21.375 --> 00:06:23.865 better and what we need to measure to make sure we're doing it. 00:06:24.460 --> 00:06:30.160 So we live in an era of hybrid and virtual work, spontaneous collaboration 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.040 that would happen when you and I run into each other on the hall 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:35.470 and I say, Hey, I was just thinking about, and you share your thoughts. 00:06:35.650 --> 00:06:41.830 How can teams intentionally design their communication practices for 00:06:41.890 --> 00:06:46.000 this sense of quick, spontaneous interaction that we miss when we're 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.280 not all together in the same place? 00:06:48.580 --> 00:06:49.240 Molly Sands: Two things. 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:51.870 One, you have to cancel some of the meetings. 00:06:51.930 --> 00:06:54.870 You cannot be in standing meetings all the time and still have 00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:56.340 those moments to come together. 00:06:56.609 --> 00:07:01.169 We know from decades of research that these bursty collaboration patterns, so 00:07:01.169 --> 00:07:06.479 when teams talk a lot for a short time and have quick back and forths and then are 00:07:06.479 --> 00:07:11.315 quiet, doing deeper work for an extended period of time as well, and alternate 00:07:11.315 --> 00:07:14.585 between those modes, those are the highest performing remote and distributed 00:07:14.585 --> 00:07:16.235 teams, and they continue to be. 00:07:16.445 --> 00:07:21.125 So making sure that you do have some time in your schedule for 00:07:21.125 --> 00:07:22.955 things as they dynamically change. 00:07:23.195 --> 00:07:27.289 When we're over-planned or overscheduled we just can't hop on a call. 00:07:27.289 --> 00:07:31.250 We can't just jump in to talk about something or solve a problem together. 00:07:31.549 --> 00:07:36.260 So I always encourage teams to set some collaboration hours, especially 00:07:36.260 --> 00:07:40.549 if you're really distributed across time zones, where you try to keep those 00:07:40.549 --> 00:07:45.890 free of those standing meetings, but do plan to interact and be available 00:07:45.890 --> 00:07:47.060 as needed throughout the week. 00:07:47.315 --> 00:07:50.825 That's huge for helping those groups move a lot faster. 00:07:51.185 --> 00:07:54.155 And then you also need ways to build connections. 00:07:54.455 --> 00:07:57.965 One of my favorite rituals that we have from Atlassian that we've 00:07:57.965 --> 00:08:01.505 studied with hundreds and hundreds of teams, 'cause every time we do 00:08:01.505 --> 00:08:05.405 this everyone signs up, is something we call the Chief Vibes Officer. 00:08:05.675 --> 00:08:10.235 The CVO, if you will, and you'll be the CVO for your team for a week. 00:08:10.565 --> 00:08:14.135 And it is your job to inject fun into work. 00:08:14.405 --> 00:08:18.815 So people come up with silly prompts and they might put a prompt in Slack 00:08:18.815 --> 00:08:23.255 of, Hey, tell me if you could magically transport yourself to any place in the 00:08:23.255 --> 00:08:24.575 world right now, where would you go? 00:08:24.635 --> 00:08:29.675 Or what is one thing you were hilariously terrified of as a child? 00:08:29.705 --> 00:08:33.280 It could be any sort of different type of fun question. 00:08:33.669 --> 00:08:36.069 Some are more serious, some are more fun. 00:08:36.370 --> 00:08:40.539 But creating some intentional touch points throughout your week where 00:08:40.539 --> 00:08:44.380 people do start to get to know each other better, just helps build 00:08:44.380 --> 00:08:46.630 those bridges and those connections. 00:08:46.990 --> 00:08:51.550 And when you are in a really distributed team, you need some ways 00:08:51.550 --> 00:08:53.290 to make sure that continues to happen. 00:08:53.955 --> 00:08:58.035 Matt Abrahams: So we have to put time aside to actually collaborate, which 00:08:58.035 --> 00:09:00.945 often means getting rid of those standing highly structured meetings. 00:09:01.005 --> 00:09:05.205 And I love this idea of being Chief Vibe Officer for your team. 00:09:05.265 --> 00:09:07.965 And what I like about it is it sounds like it rotates. 00:09:07.965 --> 00:09:10.635 So everybody has an opportunity to do that, which means everybody 00:09:10.635 --> 00:09:12.165 brings their own personality to it. 00:09:12.495 --> 00:09:16.065 But because you know you're gonna do it at some point, you're much more likely 00:09:16.065 --> 00:09:17.655 to contribute when somebody else does it. 00:09:17.655 --> 00:09:19.605 So it actually has a built-in engagement tool. 00:09:19.910 --> 00:09:23.300 Molly Sands: Yeah, and we found from the teams that do that consistently, that 00:09:23.300 --> 00:09:27.079 not only do they have more fun at work and feel better and more connected about 00:09:27.079 --> 00:09:31.400 their team, they also are more likely to ask each other for help and to feel 00:09:31.400 --> 00:09:36.020 comfortable coming forward when they have an issue flagging risks and problems. 00:09:36.050 --> 00:09:39.829 These kinds of things that we know are so key for high performing 00:09:39.829 --> 00:09:43.370 teams, but just building those social bridges really helps. 00:09:43.430 --> 00:09:46.490 Matt Abrahams: What an easy way to get that really big 00:09:46.550 --> 00:09:48.260 unlock to people asking help. 00:09:48.800 --> 00:09:53.660 I know also that you all believe that when people do come together physically 00:09:53.660 --> 00:09:58.369 in the same place, that it's important to make that really easy as well, and to make 00:09:58.369 --> 00:10:02.359 that part of the way that you operate, is there are times where people come together 00:10:02.359 --> 00:10:04.310 and the space is easy you can plug in. 00:10:04.369 --> 00:10:07.040 So this notion of when we do come together, we don't want 00:10:07.040 --> 00:10:08.569 a lot of friction in that. 00:10:08.964 --> 00:10:12.834 Molly Sands: Yeah, we have done a lot to make it easy for teams 00:10:12.834 --> 00:10:13.915 to come together in person. 00:10:13.944 --> 00:10:16.555 'Cause that is a really important experience, especially 00:10:16.555 --> 00:10:19.525 for newer teams, people that haven't worked together as long. 00:10:19.795 --> 00:10:22.584 My team did some interesting analyses. 00:10:22.645 --> 00:10:26.574 We have all the data about what people do with those gatherings. 00:10:26.574 --> 00:10:28.405 We have all of the agendas from them. 00:10:28.645 --> 00:10:32.694 And so we looked at those and we found that there were three types of 00:10:32.694 --> 00:10:34.435 gatherings that were really effective. 00:10:34.615 --> 00:10:37.520 One was what we call doing the work. 00:10:37.910 --> 00:10:41.870 So coming together around a key project or initiative, especially when it 00:10:41.870 --> 00:10:45.740 was kicking off and really getting started and getting momentum together. 00:10:46.010 --> 00:10:51.590 Another was learning about the work, so getting more context about the 00:10:51.590 --> 00:10:57.320 business, about the problems, setting out more information about collaborators 00:10:57.320 --> 00:10:58.940 and who we're gonna work with. 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:03.599 And then the third was planning the work. 00:11:04.109 --> 00:11:07.680 And that is really thinking about what is our strategy for this year? 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:11.310 What does our roadmap look like, getting aligned about what we wanna achieve. 00:11:11.699 --> 00:11:15.689 And those three use cases tended to help teams move faster. 00:11:15.959 --> 00:11:19.170 They felt like it was a great use of time, and they felt 00:11:19.170 --> 00:11:20.339 more connected to each other. 00:11:20.520 --> 00:11:25.545 And so having a focus of any time you're bringing people together that is that 00:11:25.605 --> 00:11:28.905 do, learn, or plan is really effective. 00:11:29.235 --> 00:11:34.155 And within that, you also wanna have moments for team building and 00:11:34.155 --> 00:11:38.385 those can be social, certainly it's lovely to go out to dinner, but it's 00:11:38.385 --> 00:11:41.564 also good to have those intentional conversations about ways of working. 00:11:41.835 --> 00:11:46.305 And these in-person times can be a really good time to establish some of 00:11:46.305 --> 00:11:50.564 your working norms, how you're gonna communicate, how you wanna collaborate, 00:11:50.564 --> 00:11:52.605 how you're gonna do your updates. 00:11:52.979 --> 00:11:54.239 Those are async updates. 00:11:54.239 --> 00:11:55.410 What does that look like? 00:11:55.770 --> 00:11:58.560 Getting those shared expectations really helps. 00:11:59.130 --> 00:12:02.069 Matt Abrahams: It seems to me that if you're going to bring people together, you 00:12:02.069 --> 00:12:03.959 should have an intent and purpose in mind. 00:12:03.959 --> 00:12:07.079 And this notion of doing learning or planning is a good way to do that. 00:12:07.079 --> 00:12:10.920 And it also helps set a clear vision for what that time together is for. 00:12:10.920 --> 00:12:14.520 So it helps focus the people when you're there and it helps you decide, 00:12:14.520 --> 00:12:15.839 should I do it or should I not? 00:12:16.260 --> 00:12:20.370 You know, we work in a world where we are geographically diverse and 00:12:20.370 --> 00:12:22.620 separated within a given workforce. 00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:25.290 You can have many generations in terms of age. 00:12:25.829 --> 00:12:29.610 In your work, have you found best practices or advice, or maybe even the 00:12:29.610 --> 00:12:33.630 opposite, potholes and things, speed bumps that get in the way when you're dealing 00:12:33.630 --> 00:12:37.829 with diversity in terms of culture, in terms of time, in terms of age? 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:40.890 How do we navigate this to maximize the efficiency of 00:12:40.890 --> 00:12:42.510 collaboration and connection? 00:12:43.035 --> 00:12:47.205 Molly Sands: There's so much value in having diverse teams and having lots 00:12:47.205 --> 00:12:51.735 of perspectives, and the thing that helps those teams be successful is being 00:12:51.735 --> 00:12:53.535 clear about how they work together. 00:12:53.775 --> 00:12:59.865 So the more that the rituals and the ways you communicate are just made explicit 00:12:59.865 --> 00:13:06.265 to everyone on the team, the easier it is to have all of those voices contributing. 00:13:06.555 --> 00:13:09.550 And I think there's a lot of practical ways teams can do this. 00:13:09.790 --> 00:13:11.860 The page led meetings are a great example. 00:13:12.189 --> 00:13:15.939 Anytime that I'm bringing together a group of people to talk about 00:13:15.939 --> 00:13:19.990 a problem, I want to give them multiple modalities to contribute. 00:13:20.380 --> 00:13:22.030 I may not be the loudest person in the room. 00:13:22.515 --> 00:13:25.785 I sometimes am the loudest person in the room, but not everyone is. 00:13:25.785 --> 00:13:27.735 They may not want the spotlight. 00:13:27.855 --> 00:13:32.325 They have useful feedback and ideas, so give them a way to contribute in writing. 00:13:32.685 --> 00:13:36.015 Give them a way to flag something, do a whiteboard exercise. 00:13:36.225 --> 00:13:41.685 Do something that gives people many ways to get their voice into that conversation, 00:13:41.985 --> 00:13:43.875 even if they process or think differently. 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.079 Matt Abrahams: I really like that idea of respecting how different 00:13:47.079 --> 00:13:50.290 people show up and how they feel comfortable contributing. 00:13:50.410 --> 00:13:53.140 And I think that's important as leaders and managers to give them those 00:13:53.140 --> 00:13:54.939 different avenues to really help them. 00:13:55.420 --> 00:13:59.490 And I think to make it explicit, that what makes us strong is our diversity, 00:13:59.490 --> 00:14:02.400 but that also means that we have different ways of communicating, different ways 00:14:02.400 --> 00:14:05.160 of contributing, and we wanna make sure everybody feels comfortable. 00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:06.390 Very key advice. 00:14:07.020 --> 00:14:11.070 Well, there you have it, as promised, lots of useful tips and tactics 00:14:11.070 --> 00:14:14.790 to help you and your teams to be more collaborative and productive. 00:14:15.210 --> 00:14:19.410 I hope each of you takes away valuable information from Molly and that you 00:14:19.410 --> 00:14:22.230 take on the role of Chief Vibes Officer. 00:14:22.590 --> 00:14:25.110 Be sure to let me know the fun things you institute. 00:14:27.670 --> 00:14:29.680 Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:14:29.680 --> 00:14:31.420 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:14:31.479 --> 00:14:33.699 To learn more about teams and teaming, please listen to 00:14:33.699 --> 00:14:35.979 episode 242 with Colin Fisher. 00:14:36.490 --> 00:14:41.370 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:14:41.680 --> 00:14:43.150 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:14:43.209 --> 00:14:45.670 With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:49.209 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.189 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:54.520 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:14:54.819 --> 00:14:58.900 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:14:58.900 --> 00:15:00.970 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.870 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:10.640 AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.