WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:02.367 Those who are just deconstructing and listening, let me know. 00:00:02.421 --> 00:00:07.012 I would imagine it's a really emotionally exhausting experience to deconstruct. 00:00:07.377 --> 00:00:09.920 Takes a lot out of you intellectually, emotionally. 00:00:11.504 --> 00:00:16.213 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. 00:00:16.465 --> 00:00:22.181 And I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith, 00:00:22.617 --> 00:00:25.224 life, and ministry. 00:00:26.217 --> 00:00:33.617 Today we are not in our normal recording studio. Not an astute observer would notice actually we've just green-screened, 00:00:34.595 --> 00:00:39.988 today Yeah, we green-screened this fantastic back window window, 00:00:40.609 --> 00:00:46.657 Behind us. No, where are we actually? I don't know. Where are we? I just followed the GPS directions. You gave me, 00:00:47.657 --> 00:00:53.257 Geographically speaking. I'm not gonna let anyone know our location. Oh, that's smart given how many views we got on our last episode 00:00:53.257 --> 00:00:55.537 We're getting pretty famous. Oh, yeah, 00:00:57.017 --> 00:01:05.297 271 whole views No, so this this week we are we took a little retreat, 00:01:07.733 --> 00:01:14.475 We rented a cabin out in the in the grease the great wilderness Have a nice stream 00:01:14.628 --> 00:01:17.457 That we're sitting by and we're just spending this week in, 00:01:18.517 --> 00:01:23.217 preparation sermon prep and planning and praying. 00:01:25.683 --> 00:01:34.739 For Next year 2024. Yep. So if you go to conduit if you go to our church and you wonder how we, 00:01:36.900 --> 00:01:43.937 You know like Maybe decide what we're gonna preach on or what the church calendar is gonna be or like, 00:01:45.191 --> 00:01:50.160 If we just kind of pull things out of a hat and do them randomly, I would say that we're, 00:01:51.754 --> 00:01:58.397 Maybe a notch or two above complete randomness We're not we don't have like expert level, 00:01:59.817 --> 00:02:04.537 Intentionality or expert level planning, but I will say that we are trying to get better, 00:02:06.292 --> 00:02:20.066 every year at creating more long-range plans and goals. And so we planned the whole sermon calendar for 2024. So- 00:02:20.622 --> 00:02:22.302 We did. We tentatively know, 00:02:23.316 --> 00:02:25.102 kind of what we're going to be preaching every Sunday. 00:02:25.791 --> 00:02:27.262 Yeah. At least the general series. 00:02:28.690 --> 00:02:34.702 Yeah. Not what the individual message is going to be. Right. I think we have one Sunday that we didn't plan and it's the last Sunday of the year. 00:02:35.874 --> 00:02:42.382 Correct. Yeah, we got to that point. We were too tired to do anything else but we did want to come back onto the podcast and, 00:02:43.222 --> 00:02:44.732 Talk a little bit about, 00:02:45.641 --> 00:02:51.022 Well, we wanted to be able to release an episode on Monday but we also wanted to, 00:02:51.970 --> 00:02:55.322 Talk about actually our last podcast episode. Yeah, 00:02:56.399 --> 00:03:00.182 follow up from last week and kind of that conversation, 00:03:01.302 --> 00:03:14.542 generated a lot of I guess not a lot of but more than normal Comments on the YouTube video and some good discussion and some thoughts down there and we thought those were definitely worth, 00:03:15.691 --> 00:03:21.482 Talking about yeah, so if you don't listen on YouTube or you don't watch the podcast on the YouTube 00:03:21.482 --> 00:03:29.950 You might benefit from going to the YouTube the YouTube I meant the episode on the YouTube the YouTube episode. How about that? 00:03:30.265 --> 00:03:39.151 If you don't listen on the Internet's Pop over to YouTube and hit the podcast the uncut podcast channel and, 00:03:39.962 --> 00:03:43.662 Look at some of the comments underneath the video from last week because they, 00:03:45.128 --> 00:03:48.063 were I Will say this, 00:03:49.562 --> 00:03:53.002 We've been talking a lot about deconstruction lately it seems to be a really. 00:03:54.635 --> 00:04:01.522 Interesting topic for both of us. Yeah But in the space, in the online space of deconstruction. 00:04:04.682 --> 00:04:05.959 Deconstructing your faith, 00:04:08.682 --> 00:04:12.720 the dialogue can be really disgusting. 00:04:17.362 --> 00:04:25.522 Like really bad on both sides. Christians who are interacting with those 00:04:25.522 --> 00:04:33.842 have deconstructed, or I should say not just Christians, people, and then people interacting 00:04:33.842 --> 00:04:39.322 with people who haven't deconstructed. 00:04:41.734 --> 00:04:39.448 And, 00:04:41.734 --> 00:04:45.074 And a lot of times those conversations just get really really ugly. Yeah, 00:04:47.352 --> 00:04:55.184 um but what I will say is that Although I don't agree with everything that has been written in the comments specifically of this last video, 00:04:56.975 --> 00:05:02.624 I think the tenor Of the conversation was excellent. Yeah, and I really appreciated it 00:05:02.791 --> 00:05:07.504 And so if you're if you happen to find your way back to this episode 00:05:07.796 --> 00:05:12.324 Mm-hmm after commenting on our last one. I wanted to say thank you. Thanks for your good comments, 00:05:13.233 --> 00:05:18.584 Thanks for your interaction a lot of good things to talk about and in respond to we're gonna try and get to some of them, 00:05:19.850 --> 00:05:25.107 today and Yeah, I feel I feel I, 00:05:26.224 --> 00:05:33.984 Feel honored that people would interact in a yeah a nice way about it Yeah, I and I the thing I thought that resonated with me is like you, 00:05:34.605 --> 00:05:40.904 You you know, not everyone who comments on a YouTube video or comments on a particularly a long YouTube video like ours 00:05:40.904 --> 00:05:46.864 Like listen to the whole thing and I did get the sense that most people really did listen to it 00:05:47.037 --> 00:05:49.314 Yeah, and you know, and so that's you know, 00:05:50.539 --> 00:05:51.943 Thank you. Yeah, so yep. 00:05:54.356 --> 00:06:01.017 So there were several different types of responses or comments to the video and, 00:06:01.944 --> 00:06:08.444 I think Some of the questions or concerns that people had about some of the things that we said, I think were valid, 00:06:09.504 --> 00:06:18.584 and So it might be important I think it is important to address some of those as it pertains to deconstruction and the reasons why, 00:06:19.841 --> 00:06:29.870 people deconstruct mm-hmm because I Think what was the I think what people understood us as saying whether or not we were actually saying that is, 00:06:30.744 --> 00:06:31.526 that, 00:06:32.687 --> 00:06:35.304 People there's two there's two reasons that people, 00:06:36.999 --> 00:06:42.904 Accused us of believing that people deconstruct one was about like. 00:06:45.504 --> 00:06:53.944 What would be apparent fringe Fringe theological beliefs like really really obscure. Yes, because we did lat 00:06:54.068 --> 00:06:59.163 We did admittedly talk about some pretty obscure biblical interpretation. We did we did so, 00:06:59.624 --> 00:07:02.845 So I want to address that. 00:07:02.935 --> 00:07:13.624 I want to address fringe theological beliefs as the basis for deconstructing. 00:07:13.624 --> 00:07:26.364 There was some other comments about how we may have leaned a little bit too hard on the 00:07:26.364 --> 00:07:39.024 angle of the church hurt me therefore I deconstructed and I will admittedly say that you know 00:07:38.422 --> 00:07:44.412 Yes, I do think that that is often a reason that people deconstruct. Yeah, it's from some emotional hurt, 00:07:44.872 --> 00:07:50.863 But it's fair to say and as I talk with more people who have who or who are, 00:07:51.992 --> 00:07:55.292 Deconstructing I'm becoming I am I'm learning that. 00:07:57.048 --> 00:08:07.752 While it usually is a part of someone's story. Mm-hmm It's almost never the whole thing. Yeah, I think the other reason that we were kind of at least our, 00:08:08.355 --> 00:08:11.152 Our focus in that episode was somewhat in that direction, 00:08:11.991 --> 00:08:20.592 was We had just we were just talking about an account on right online I'm gonna check that account real quick. Yeah, there there is there's a, 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:28.192 Local account that's exposing a christian institution uh in our area over some. 00:08:29.872 --> 00:08:36.612 Really just abuse uh, some pretty awful things, um Including like the the nephilim, 00:08:37.252 --> 00:08:42.779 Mm-hmm. Was it enough? Yeah, it was the Nephilim thing. So like we actually, you know, we did pull that from like, 00:08:43.949 --> 00:08:53.212 somebody locally taught that And some people, you know sat underneath that teaching and it's and it's harmful implications and all of that. So, 00:08:54.392 --> 00:08:59.811 So that was a little bit of what colored our direction a little bit is because we were in part off, 00:09:01.032 --> 00:09:06.592 Even though we didn't talk about it on camera. I don't think we were responding specifically to an account, 00:09:07.139 --> 00:09:13.486 that was in our local area addressing some spiritual abuse and things like that, and just actual abuse. 00:09:13.732 --> 00:09:23.552 Yes, yeah. So yeah, I don't actually believe or think that people are walking around deconstructing 00:09:23.552 --> 00:09:27.169 their long-held Christian belief or faith or whatever 00:09:27.312 --> 00:09:36.592 because they can't get behind a theological belief about the Nephilim or some idiot somewhere, 00:09:37.036 --> 00:09:41.510 talked about the mark of Cain being dark colored skin and like right. 00:09:43.643 --> 00:09:49.584 Think even it does happen. It does happen. But admittedly, it's but it's very it's more friend 00:09:49.584 --> 00:09:51.268 I don't know that it's ever been like oh, 00:09:52.430 --> 00:09:57.224 That's the reason I'm deconstructing. Yeah, suppose I'm wrong, but I could be wrong, but, 00:09:58.056 --> 00:10:00.944 Like those fringe believe so it's the fringe theological beliefs, 00:10:01.765 --> 00:10:07.784 We don't believe that they are like the at least I don't believe that they're like the main reason that people do I think they? 00:10:07.784 --> 00:10:15.364 Contribute They can contribute But even there, I don't think that it's actually the belief system, 00:10:16.628 --> 00:10:20.824 I wonder if it's that the actual belief system that people, 00:10:22.184 --> 00:10:25.304 deconstruct from in that way or if it's the spirit behind which, 00:10:27.242 --> 00:10:36.224 That thing is taught Or that thing is believed by the person that's like how a gating it like how could somebody who holds my belief system? 00:10:36.847 --> 00:10:39.384 Also believe that particular thing, 00:10:42.104 --> 00:10:43.664 Or are you saying like, 00:10:47.569 --> 00:10:52.556 The hate like I don't know make help me understand your point a little bit I, 00:10:53.771 --> 00:10:56.796 think that there is a I. 00:11:03.017 --> 00:11:09.544 Think that there is a spirit that comes out of a lot of those fringe 00:11:09.544 --> 00:11:21.664 theological interpretations that is, that does not have, that it's very difficult 00:11:21.664 --> 00:11:24.352 to find any evidence of the love of God in? 00:11:24.703 --> 00:11:25.099 Yeah. 00:11:26.792 --> 00:11:34.721 You know? And so... Well, even in some non-fringe... 00:11:35.601 --> 00:11:41.681 And even in some non-fringe, of course, yes. Non-fringe and biblical interpretations, there are camps of the church that certainly, 00:11:42.561 --> 00:11:47.121 don't demonstrate the love of God. And we talked about this, I feel like we've talked about this a 00:11:47.121 --> 00:11:55.601 lot this year on the podcast and often just in ministry in general, of this really unhelpful, 00:11:56.895 --> 00:12:01.801 way that Christians have kind of identified what it means to be a. 00:12:03.359 --> 00:12:10.181 Like mature believer this idea of like I just need to know things. Mm-hmm. I need to know more theology 00:12:10.181 --> 00:12:17.060 I need to be able to read the Bible. I should be able to teach the Bible and if I can do those things Then I'm mature, 00:12:17.834 --> 00:12:25.721 when Really like the biggest mark for maturity that Christ and the Bible in the New Testament gives over and over again is love 00:12:25.721 --> 00:12:32.121 We will not be known not by how much theology we know but by how we love yeah 00:12:32.544 --> 00:12:35.941 We won't be known by our view of what the Nephilim is or whether or not, 00:12:36.401 --> 00:12:40.461 Mentally and physically handicapped people now are Nephilim right we will be known by, 00:12:41.573 --> 00:12:44.081 When I interact with this person do they? 00:12:45.219 --> 00:12:53.481 Like do they know that I love them right is my is love being expressed right and incarnated in my interaction with them. 00:12:53.481 --> 00:12:58.961 Yeah. And so, the thing that unfortunately, I think, happens in some church cultures and churches 00:12:58.961 --> 00:13:04.921 and organizations is we put people up who have teaching... 00:13:06.068 --> 00:13:10.719 You know, gifts, or like, are really good at teaching, or at least seem to know a lot, 00:13:11.443 --> 00:13:18.005 but don't demonstrate a maturity in love that they perhaps should. And so you've, you know, 00:13:19.119 --> 00:13:27.679 and you can see this in, you know, lots of people, you know, a less fringe theological 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:33.679 thing that a lot of people wrestle with is like, biblical teaching on gender, and gender roles, 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:43.279 and complementarianism is not, at least I don't think it's fringe, and so, but there are some 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:51.008 expressions of complementarianism in church and home life that definitely lack love, right? 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:55.599 And to a point at which I don't think they're complementarian anymore, I think they're, 00:13:56.239 --> 00:14:02.239 something else, but they would call themselves and the world, it would be called complementarianism, 00:14:02.239 --> 00:14:04.559 I would just say that's just abuse. 00:14:05.096 --> 00:14:07.919 12.20 Yeah, it's just a veiled form of authoritarianism. 12.21 Yeah. 00:14:10.804 --> 00:14:19.919 So, yeah, is that what, so you're saying just kind of like there's this absence of the love of Christ, and if that was there, that would make a difference? 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:27.679 12.25 I think so, because we could normally, I think even agnostics and even some atheists 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:35.119 are not necessarily hostile to a Christian's belief even in the 00:14:35.119 --> 00:14:40.322 supernatural. Believe what you want, bro. 00:14:40.034 --> 00:14:49.884 You know believe what you want I think what they react strongly against is the is the um form of, 00:14:51.188 --> 00:14:59.004 um spiritual or just any type of superiority the spirit of superiority the spirit of judgment, 00:15:00.091 --> 00:15:06.888 The spirit of hate even in some cases that comes from the person that holds these, 00:15:08.124 --> 00:15:14.204 what they consider to be deeply held Christian convictions. And so I think much of. 00:15:18.444 --> 00:15:26.204 The disagreement that those who have deconstructed or those who are just abjectly agnostic or atheist, 00:15:27.008 --> 00:15:33.841 have with those who still attest to or hold to the Christian faith is not necessarily that, 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.117 hey, you're an idiot for believing these things. 00:15:37.244 --> 00:15:37.514 Yeah. 00:15:38.144 --> 00:15:47.641 But it's more of like, the way in which you believe them has preached them to me as being not, 00:15:47.964 --> 00:15:53.808 could not possibly be true, or at least not something that I want to be a part of. 00:15:57.644 --> 00:16:02.054 And so I think that's a growing edge of understanding for me. 00:16:04.908 --> 00:16:10.644 Because a lot of those who I've been interacting with, like in their deconstruction in the last few weeks 00:16:10.644 --> 00:16:18.186 and months, are like, you really don't understand. I didn't deconstruct to get away from Jesus. 00:16:21.157 --> 00:16:27.089 Like, I deconstructed to get closer to Jesus. Now granted, it was a Jesus of a, 00:16:27.164 --> 00:16:31.608 it was what they would consider to be a fresh interpretation of Jesus, 00:16:31.664 --> 00:16:33.616 not the Jesus of evangelicalism. 00:16:33.804 --> 00:16:47.461 Right. Not the Jesus of conservatism, not even in some cases, the Jesus of progressive liberalism, just some other Jesus. Which... 00:16:49.793 --> 00:16:54.807 Would say has its problems But I also understand it. I I, 00:16:56.914 --> 00:17:05.163 Want I want to follow the Jesus that is free of the labels and biases that we have in the world now Yeah, who doesn't? 00:17:06.348 --> 00:17:12.243 But I think it is I think what ends up happening a little bit is that the baby gets kind of thrown out with the bath 00:17:12.243 --> 00:17:20.723 water, yeah, and we begin to We begin to discount or just completely throw away, 00:17:23.002 --> 00:17:29.723 Maybe things that strike against modern sensibility or cultural sensibilities. 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:42.163 Saying that well this can't possibly be true or this this belief must be it must be a product of 00:17:42.163 --> 00:17:46.336 of toxic evangelicalism, 00:17:46.963 --> 00:17:51.837 because it really, really, really seems to be ugly, 00:17:52.803 --> 00:17:59.283 or makes me uncomfortable or doesn't, what I'm learning here, 00:17:59.283 --> 00:18:05.523 some of the things I wanna talk about here, or is not conducive or not representative 00:18:05.745 --> 00:18:13.483 Conducive or not conducive or like not representative of what like the reality of the world that we can see 00:18:13.683 --> 00:18:19.123 Actually is yeah. Mm-hmm. That was a reoccurring theme at least in the comments that we had. Yes, 00:18:20.392 --> 00:18:28.683 So, I mean, maybe this is maybe this is an unhelpful now And this is the analogy at least that immediately comes to my mind is we as pastors 00:18:28.683 --> 00:18:30.528 We have a lot of people in our church who are. 00:18:33.363 --> 00:18:34.507 Ex-catholic, 00:18:36.326 --> 00:18:41.456 And in some… As much as anyone can be ex-Catholic, I don't know. 00:18:41.456 --> 00:18:43.056 Yeah, as much as anyone can be ex-Catholic, yeah. 00:18:43.856 --> 00:18:50.656 Well, but that's… They grew up in the Catholic Church. Grew up in the Catholic Church. And what we find, and I think has been like a generational 00:18:50.656 --> 00:18:57.536 thing, not unique to our ministry in particular, but what I've found is that like, people who've 00:18:57.661 --> 00:19:02.816 grown up in the Catholic Church, left the Catholic Church and came to non-denominational 00:19:02.816 --> 00:19:12.576 evangelicalism, sometimes have a little bit of, like, fright or scared of, or scared of, 00:19:12.576 --> 00:19:14.976 like, things that are seemingly Catholic. 00:19:14.976 --> 00:19:15.616 Catholic, yeah. 00:19:17.376 --> 00:19:27.720 And... I don't do that. It's too Catholic. It's too Catholic. It's, you know, and what happens is we end up rejecting a caricature, 00:19:28.467 --> 00:19:34.896 of Catholicism, and we end up throwing away some things that are really treasures of the church, 00:19:35.858 --> 00:19:42.186 but for some reason we feel like, well, that's just gotta be wrong because of 00:19:42.537 --> 00:19:50.016 maybe the way I experienced it in an unhealthy Catholic way, or some Catholic priest explained 00:19:50.016 --> 00:19:56.336 it to me this way, even if that priest wasn't representative of accurate or good Catholic 00:19:56.336 --> 00:20:03.856 theology, you know, so I guess it's kind of a, it's a somewhat niche analogy because, 00:20:04.026 --> 00:20:10.016 you know, not everyone's going to quite see what I'm saying there. But it's, it's, 00:20:10.656 --> 00:20:14.096 do you see the way, see what I was trying to do there? 00:20:14.096 --> 00:20:24.896 Yeah, yeah. So one of these things that I would like to, one of the things, the questions that I would like to look at, or one of the statements I would like 00:20:24.896 --> 00:20:31.744 I'd like to look at. I kind of have it in a bunch of different places here, so I, you know, like, maybe try and give me a second to put it together, but... 00:20:39.009 --> 00:20:46.979 There's a so there's a few there was a few comments one is that This comment was made is that your your beliefs aren't? 00:20:47.975 --> 00:20:56.939 Aren't he was talking about I think like the a lot of people reacted against, 00:20:58.299 --> 00:21:06.033 a Lot of people reacted against the discussion about like choosing your belief and. 00:21:09.913 --> 00:21:21.310 I think Yeah, like choosing it because we believe it's true. Yes, or yeah choosing rather than just reacting to what is true, right? or right and, 00:21:22.138 --> 00:21:27.779 And so this one guy said that your your beliefs aren't necessarily less strange than then the guy that, 00:21:28.593 --> 00:21:34.839 Has his own beliefs that are different you're just used to your beliefs. So they're not they're not strange to you, 00:21:35.741 --> 00:21:42.939 Yeah, right. So And and so that brings up like well, have you ever is there any, 00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:47.759 Spiritual or intellectual honesty with your beliefs. Are you willing to be wrong? 00:21:48.542 --> 00:21:52.939 Mm-hmm. Are you willing to? Are you willing to acknowledge? 00:21:54.259 --> 00:22:01.939 That any of the beliefs that you have Could be wrong. Yeah, because I said in the last episode 00:22:01.939 --> 00:22:06.799 obviously I believe that the things that I believe are true. 00:22:07.739 --> 00:22:10.899 Otherwise I wouldn't believe them. But are you willing to acknowledge 00:22:10.899 --> 00:22:13.550 that the things that you hold as true could be wrong? 00:22:16.439 --> 00:22:25.779 That's a little bit of a philosophical statement. Because, you know, am I willing to acknowledge, 00:22:26.679 --> 00:22:30.817 that the things that I believe are true could be false? 00:22:31.843 --> 00:22:34.634 Well, I mean, I think you would have to assume. 00:22:37.307 --> 00:22:43.996 Think that that makes the assumption that I have not examined the things that I believe and, 00:22:45.563 --> 00:22:50.817 Have already at least in whatever way is comfortable or reasonable for me, 00:22:51.828 --> 00:22:56.357 Have determined that any objection to the beliefs that I have, 00:22:57.689 --> 00:23:05.197 are That I just like that I just haven't I've put my horse blinders on and I've said okay 00:23:05.197 --> 00:23:12.997 Okay, no, this is what conservative evangelicalism tells me to believe, and I'm not going to look 00:23:13.100 --> 00:23:17.397 at any of the periphery evidence, and I'm just gonna believe the thing 00:23:17.397 --> 00:23:19.677 that I want to believe without being like, 00:23:19.677 --> 00:23:23.117 oh, I'm gonna look over here to see what this is. 00:23:23.117 --> 00:23:25.389 And I'm gonna look over here to see what this is. 00:23:26.777 --> 00:23:32.554 Okay, I examine that, okay, I examine this, I examine this, I examine this. 00:23:32.657 --> 00:23:35.534 Okay, what do I, what am I gonna believe? 00:23:35.997 --> 00:23:37.227 What do I believe now? 00:23:37.977 --> 00:23:39.801 Okay, I believe this. 00:23:42.537 --> 00:23:43.807 I think it, like. 00:23:46.417 --> 00:23:51.531 I can't speak for the way in which all people develop their belief. Yeah. 00:23:53.332 --> 00:24:01.064 But I can say with a fairly large degree of certainty that the beliefs that I hold are not untested. 00:24:01.425 --> 00:24:03.828 Mm-hmm. They are not unconsidered, right? 00:24:04.337 --> 00:24:11.093 They are not held ignorantly or in a sense of either theological or cultural naivete. Mm-hmm. I, 00:24:11.867 --> 00:24:13.857 I have cultural competence, 00:24:14.937 --> 00:24:19.697 I'm not disconnected from the culture that I live in and the world I live in and the reality that we see, 00:24:20.392 --> 00:24:21.482 Yep, not culturally ignorant, 00:24:22.490 --> 00:24:26.837 But I've chosen the things that I've chosen after I've chosen to leave the things that I believe 00:24:26.837 --> 00:24:35.877 after a period of like pretty significant examination of those beliefs over the course of all of my adult life 00:24:35.877 --> 00:24:38.100 and part of my adolescent life. 00:24:38.217 --> 00:24:46.544 And in fact, in some ways, and you wouldn't, like most people who don't go to seminary won't know this. 00:24:47.397 --> 00:24:53.237 And this might not be true in every seminary, but it was true in a lot of my classes, 00:24:53.237 --> 00:24:58.094 is that your high seminary professors, and some of my other post-grad, 00:25:00.617 --> 00:25:10.373 both pre-graduate work and post-graduate work would intentionally and actively like. 00:25:13.272 --> 00:25:20.002 Would give us material that was the complete opposite direction of the faith tradition 00:25:20.002 --> 00:25:26.482 that we had come from, forcing us to engage with it in such significant ways that it became, 00:25:27.603 --> 00:25:35.122 an uncomfortable exercise to have it confront our long-held belief. And then we had to sort out. 00:25:36.344 --> 00:25:41.122 What we actually believed in the face of what was a compelling argument for the other side. 00:25:41.539 --> 00:25:47.842 Yeah, and virtually with every theological system and belief that we hold that was the task of seminary. 00:25:47.842 --> 00:25:51.562 It wasn't to say, this is what you must believe and this is how you must teach it and this 00:25:51.562 --> 00:25:53.242 is how you must lead. 00:25:53.242 --> 00:26:01.122 It's like, okay, here are four books on human sexuality from four completely different perspectives, 00:26:01.122 --> 00:26:07.202 progressive, liberal, conservative, evangelical, Orthodox, Western, Eastern, whatever the case 00:26:07.202 --> 00:26:09.041 may be. Figure it out. 00:26:10.222 --> 00:26:24.128 Them all and respond. And so I do think that the deconstruction crowd has painted a caricature, 00:26:25.137 --> 00:26:36.102 of the evangelical crowd that says they are so blind in their belief that they are unwilling 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:40.902 to, that they are unwilling to examine other viewpoints. 00:26:40.902 --> 00:26:46.877 Now, I've met people that are unwilling to examine other viewpoints. 00:26:47.147 --> 00:26:50.613 I accept and receive that they are out there. 00:26:50.982 --> 00:26:53.342 They exist. They do exist, right? 00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:56.753 However. 00:26:58.607 --> 00:27:10.257 I think Not everyone who holds our beliefs Also has never examined them exactly. There are those who have examined and said nope. This is this is it 00:27:10.497 --> 00:27:15.217 That was one of the thing I haven't had this conversation in a while, but it's a conversation 00:27:15.217 --> 00:27:17.397 I had multiple times and usually was someone who was, 00:27:19.096 --> 00:27:23.832 Not a believer and it was usually the question of like well Did you grow up in the church? 00:27:24.597 --> 00:27:29.137 And that was always there. That was their easy way of explaining saying what will you grew up in the church? 00:27:29.800 --> 00:27:38.017 Therefore that's what you believe so like you can't make any truth claim on it because you having been brought up in it somehow nullifies your, 00:27:38.847 --> 00:27:45.131 Wrestling with it and you know And then I was true for its truth and I would usually share my story with them and they were like, oh 00:27:45.374 --> 00:27:53.017 So like you haven't always thought this I was like no at one point I thought there was no God like that was a point in my life where I was an atheist 00:27:53.017 --> 00:27:55.017 I was quiet atheist because, 00:27:55.577 --> 00:28:00.177 To out myself would have outed myself from like my family and all the stuff that I was around, 00:28:00.858 --> 00:28:03.817 But like yeah, I thought Christians were full of a bunch of, 00:28:04.648 --> 00:28:06.457 doo-doo. 00:28:10.577 --> 00:28:18.017 But Yeah, I didn't think Christians were very good. I didn't like Christians very much. I thought they were a bunch of emotionalists, too 00:28:18.017 --> 00:28:25.017 Yeah, I thought like it was a lot of emotional hype and that's still a critique that Christians 00:28:25.017 --> 00:28:35.217 get a lot of times and not unfairly sometimes. But I do think, to kind of get back directly to 00:28:35.217 --> 00:28:42.497 your point, I do, like, I resonate with that, but I also like, there is like a little bit of validity 00:28:42.497 --> 00:28:47.497 in that like, I'm not a scientist. 00:28:49.837 --> 00:28:56.555 Like a scientist creates a scientific theory and the scientist then has to say like, 00:28:56.637 --> 00:28:59.097 well, this is my theory, right? 00:28:59.097 --> 00:29:03.280 And point of a scientific theory is it's supposed to be tested, retested 00:29:03.361 --> 00:29:06.665 until it is like driven down into the ground. 00:29:07.577 --> 00:29:11.997 It's either proven false or it's been proven right so many times that people just give up 00:29:11.997 --> 00:29:15.928 I'm trying to prove it false right there's, 00:29:16.612 --> 00:29:22.757 and That's you know that takes scientific intellectual honesty and impartiality to do, 00:29:23.454 --> 00:29:29.629 I like I'm honest if I'm honest myself like wow I'm certainly open to. 00:29:31.574 --> 00:29:39.797 Having honest conversations confronting different beliefs Have done serious seasons of that in my life in the past 00:29:39.797 --> 00:29:45.266 have wrestled with things, willing to do that potentially again in the future, I'm, 00:29:45.777 --> 00:29:56.888 not willing to live my life in a constant test tube of constantly saying hmm I don't know. 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:02.488 Like maybe this is true. Maybe this is like I'm not willing like it's just not how I want to I don't think I don't think, 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:05.557 Most people can live their life that way, 00:30:06.538 --> 00:30:11.809 I think one of the things that like I don't know those who are just deconstructing and listening. Let me know, 00:30:12.426 --> 00:30:14.280 But I would imagine it's a really, 00:30:15.209 --> 00:30:21.829 Emotionally exhausting experience to deconstruct takes a lot out of you intellectually emotionally 00:30:21.995 --> 00:30:28.389 And so there is at some point where I kind of have to like, 00:30:29.287 --> 00:30:30.773 set this aside and, 00:30:31.781 --> 00:30:35.029 Say I'm I'm not going to continue to. 00:30:37.182 --> 00:30:47.869 To search out those arguments necessarily or I'm going to continually Re-examine every aspect of my faith all the time because I simply just don't have the capacity to it 00:30:48.291 --> 00:30:56.029 I part of me wants to live my life underneath, in faith, underneath that. And that's, I think, one of the things that, 00:30:56.798 --> 00:31:00.829 came out in some of the comments is... I was just gonna say, like, one of the 00:31:00.829 --> 00:31:09.437 comments essentially directly, directly challenges that viewpoint. Yes. It says, if, 00:31:10.029 --> 00:31:13.989 you are wrong, do you want to know it? 00:31:13.191 --> 00:31:18.197 I mean kind of yes kind of no um 00:31:18.260 --> 00:31:24.641 Like I mean, I guess like do I want what I would rat would I rather know the truth than knowingly not know the truth? 00:31:25.353 --> 00:31:33.601 Like Yes, I would rather know the truth. Mm-hmm but there also is a point and this is you know, and this is why i'm, 00:31:34.185 --> 00:31:41.521 I think you probably fall in this camp a little bit But I know I fall into this camp and this makes having some of these conversations kind of weird for me 00:31:41.656 --> 00:31:43.826 is because I'm not like a. 00:31:45.161 --> 00:31:51.741 Classical or evidentialist apology apologist by nature so for those who don't know what that means like, 00:31:52.481 --> 00:31:58.599 Traditional defenses of the faith like I think have importance you should know them like, you know, 00:31:59.281 --> 00:32:06.801 understanding why we believe what we believe the site like the evidence of the world around us that seems to indicate that the 00:32:06.801 --> 00:32:14.681 Philosophical arguments that support that but at the end of the day the way I live most of my life is not in those camps 00:32:14.681 --> 00:32:17.701 Which is where I'll dip my toe into them and come in and out of them, 00:32:18.197 --> 00:32:24.321 But where I live most of my life is in a Fideist camp. Yep, which by that is faith. Yep, 00:32:25.020 --> 00:32:31.151 it's a it's the kind of an acknowledgement of that like my lived experience and, 00:32:31.691 --> 00:32:37.001 the way that the world From the view from which I am able to take it in, 00:32:37.831 --> 00:32:41.612 Seems to line up with and my own personal experiences with God are, 00:32:42.890 --> 00:32:50.362 the Testament to me that I have found God and that I'm following after him. Yep, 00:32:51.681 --> 00:32:56.051 and so to the listener who is intellectually got, 00:32:57.041 --> 00:33:07.862 objections to the Bible to some of my personal convictions That's not a very compelling argument. Not to me at least to me. It's not right you it's not right and so I, 00:33:08.941 --> 00:33:12.461 Acknowledge that like but there is a point was it? 00:33:14.668 --> 00:33:20.458 So one of the commenters mentioned him, um, Aquinas Aquinas, was it Aquinas that said? 00:33:21.672 --> 00:33:27.334 Faith is Or faith seeking understanding faith seeking understanding. Yes, 00:33:28.278 --> 00:33:36.418 Which is this idea of we don't like like there is a point at which Faith is required to have faith, 00:33:38.011 --> 00:33:42.278 For pretty much and there's also you know, there's a this required to have understanding faith is required to have understanding 00:33:42.278 --> 00:33:49.471 understanding, and faith is required for pretty much anything, right? We could go down Descartes, 00:33:51.028 --> 00:33:55.678 like you know, find the one unmovable truth and then move from there, right? He, in a 00:33:55.678 --> 00:34:00.998 sense, deconstructed everything, including sensory perception, saying you cannot trust 00:34:00.998 --> 00:34:07.998 it and came to the truth. I am, right? Or I think, therefore I am. You know, the one 00:34:07.998 --> 00:34:12.658 Thing he could not doubt was that his own consciousness existed and that's a, 00:34:13.578 --> 00:34:18.593 Unsustainable place to live in life now granted. He built it back up and went other places from that place, but, 00:34:19.664 --> 00:34:23.178 There is a point at which we have to trust that like I actually am sitting in a chair 00:34:23.490 --> 00:34:26.678 And not deny that this is maybe part of the matrix or something like that, 00:34:27.874 --> 00:34:29.538 blue pill, baby. 00:34:32.378 --> 00:34:37.638 Yeah, that's good, that's all good thoughts so So, okay, I want to move on to something 00:34:37.638 --> 00:34:40.784 that's maybe semi-connected, but still a little bit different is, 00:34:43.078 --> 00:34:52.018 the response in many of the comments is a, what I would term, 00:34:52.758 --> 00:34:54.422 and I don't mean this pejoratively, 00:34:55.958 --> 00:34:58.428 but what I would term as a, 00:35:00.558 --> 00:35:05.638 like a people are often deconstructing, And one of the reasons they're deconstructing 00:35:05.638 --> 00:35:09.816 is because of a sense of like anti-supernaturalism in the reality of the world that we live in. 00:35:10.158 --> 00:35:13.558 Yeah, it is somewhat connected to what we were just talking. 00:35:13.558 --> 00:35:17.342 You know, it is apologetic, essentially. Someone asked about miracles, I think. 00:35:17.478 --> 00:35:20.818 Yeah, you know, he said essentially that there's a huge disconnect 00:35:20.818 --> 00:35:23.202 between what they see in the pages of scripture and reality. 00:35:23.805 --> 00:35:26.704 Yeah. You know, in the pages of scripture, they see things like donkeys talking 00:35:26.878 --> 00:35:31.398 and man walking on water and water turning into wine. 00:35:31.398 --> 00:35:40.352 But it seems like the best that God can do now is send someone's cancer into remission. 00:35:40.718 --> 00:35:45.330 So what then, how can we possibly take the Bible seriously. 00:35:49.638 --> 00:35:53.898 In relationship to the reality of the world that we see? Yep. 00:35:56.058 --> 00:35:58.473 And I, 00:36:00.264 --> 00:36:07.955 I, let's hold that for a second. We're holding it, and then we're going to a second comment 00:36:07.955 --> 00:36:11.914 or an additional comment that talks about the, 00:36:12.555 --> 00:36:16.275 and I think they were asking an honest question about either what we thought about it, 00:36:16.820 --> 00:36:22.050 or what Christians in general think about essentially the authority of scripture, 00:36:23.475 --> 00:36:29.972 which for most Christians is the basis upon which we build our belief. 00:36:30.080 --> 00:36:32.187 Yeah. Right? 00:36:32.375 --> 00:36:39.675 And ask this question, am I wrong in saying that by faith the Christian is trusting Paul's claim 00:36:39.675 --> 00:36:46.653 in 2 Timothy 3.16 that essentially says the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true? 00:36:47.509 --> 00:36:47.941 Yeah. 00:36:49.984 --> 00:36:59.235 Basically, are we just taking Paul's word for it? That was the crux of the comment there. 00:37:00.395 --> 00:37:07.395 And we've actually addressed this quite a few times, somewhat on the podcast, all the way back, 00:37:07.395 --> 00:37:13.894 even like the first or second episode of the podcast, about what is scripture and what is authority. 00:37:14.195 --> 00:37:19.595 We've also taught, not that anyone out there would know this unless they were part of our church, 00:37:19.595 --> 00:37:24.886 but we've also taught whole classes at the church and what the Bible is and what the Bible is not. 00:37:25.595 --> 00:37:36.166 And while we probably don't have the space in this week's podcast to rehash many of those arguments. 00:37:39.055 --> 00:37:41.666 You know, I think that there is a, 00:37:42.612 --> 00:37:47.455 I'm continually convinced that there is a, 00:37:49.701 --> 00:38:00.641 not only is there a biblical illiteracy in the church among Christians, but there is a biblical illiteracy, 00:38:01.941 --> 00:38:07.008 even from the stance of like a prolegomena about the Bible outside of the church, 00:38:08.481 --> 00:38:12.981 and what it actually is and what it actually isn't because a caricature has, again, 00:38:13.111 --> 00:38:15.146 a caricature has been built about 00:38:15.470 --> 00:38:18.071 what the evangelical thinks the Bible is. 00:38:19.053 --> 00:38:26.389 And so they attack the caricature rather than what really is the history, 00:38:27.101 --> 00:38:34.441 of both biblical interpretation and the development of the canon and all of that. 00:38:34.441 --> 00:38:37.336 So I guess, Um, 00:38:39.344 --> 00:38:47.001 How would you begin maybe in the time that we have to respond to like some of those. 00:38:50.237 --> 00:38:56.421 Some of those comments I mean, I guess like I would just continue to say a little bit of what I was already saying in that, 00:38:57.915 --> 00:39:02.521 If you were looking for something Where zero faith is required? 00:39:04.064 --> 00:39:05.801 You probably just shouldn't believe anything. 00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:16.369 Like, I don't know, like, right, if you, well, I mean, this is kind of a back and forth, right? 00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:06.135 You. 00:39:16.369 --> 00:39:21.015 Like, people have been arguing philosophically about proving God or disproving God. And the 00:39:21.249 --> 00:39:28.449 thing is, is that neither side is necessarily definitively one, right? Or at least, if we were 00:39:28.449 --> 00:39:35.009 to talk from like a, not from our perspective, but from a large perspective. And, you know, 00:39:35.009 --> 00:39:40.289 And the burden is not only on us to prove that God exists. 00:39:40.289 --> 00:39:43.649 There's also a burden on the opposite end is… Trevor Burrus Prove that he doesn't. 00:39:43.649 --> 00:39:56.340 Aaron Powell Prove that he doesn't, right? I guess like, and this is something that I do think unfortunately gets kind of not talked 00:39:56.385 --> 00:40:02.729 about when people are making arguments for the Bible, arguments for Christian faith, 00:40:03.011 --> 00:40:08.649 Because it is tempting as a teacher or as someone who's making the argumentation for 00:40:08.649 --> 00:40:15.425 Christ, for the Bible, to gloss over the places where faith is required. 00:40:18.558 --> 00:40:26.137 Like I do think that there is a point at which we do have to take in faith that what Paul, 00:40:26.729 --> 00:40:35.009 says is true and you know with our own experience find it also to be true so I 00:40:35.009 --> 00:40:41.513 guess like in an apps in an absolute way to some of that question is like, 00:40:42.432 --> 00:40:52.928 somewhat yeah you you do have to at some point you know trust take faith, 00:40:54.666 --> 00:40:59.956 Don't know. Do you agree with that? I mean, yeah, I do agree with it there comes to it there comes, 00:41:00.913 --> 00:41:06.036 You know you you you walk a path far enough and you come to a point where the next step that you have to take 00:41:06.036 --> 00:41:08.036 Must be a step of faith. Yes 00:41:08.236 --> 00:41:13.436 But I don't think that necessarily that means that every step that you take on that path is one of faith 00:41:13.876 --> 00:41:15.796 Yeah, I think that there are like, 00:41:16.811 --> 00:41:17.729 there are, 00:41:18.819 --> 00:41:26.076 Let's see what I think that he this one commenter was essentially asking was like is the does does it require? 00:41:27.056 --> 00:41:32.133 That we just trust that the Bible says it's true. So therefore it is true or. 00:41:35.293 --> 00:41:40.356 Which I don't believe I don't believe that we would just take Paul's words in 2nd Timothy, 00:41:40.928 --> 00:41:45.076 Chapter 3 and be like well you see right here in these pages. It says trust this whole thing 00:41:45.076 --> 00:41:50.116 thing right otherwise we would believe every movie that says based on a true 00:41:50.116 --> 00:41:53.756 story or found footage and we'd believe like you know you know it's ever movie 00:41:53.811 --> 00:41:58.476 well it becomes a it becomes obviously a logical fallacy of circle circular 00:41:58.476 --> 00:42:03.836 reasoning yeah but it also ignores what the actual history of the development of 00:42:03.836 --> 00:42:19.096 the canon is and and what the Bible actually is versus what it is actually not you know and and like what you know there was one comment towards the end 00:42:19.096 --> 00:42:32.856 about like you know no serious you know no serious geologist no serious scientist or whatever believes that you know Noah's Flood actually happened 00:42:33.294 --> 00:42:38.336 Mm-hmm right okay, and and there there are lots of really, 00:42:41.847 --> 00:42:47.717 There are lots of people who have given their lives to you know to make those arguments from an apologetic standpoint 00:42:47.986 --> 00:42:54.077 And I'm I'm not an expert in them, and so I don't intend to make them But I I do consider myself, 00:42:55.143 --> 00:42:59.917 An expert in scripture and in like the history of scripture and what and what I would say is that like. 00:43:03.740 --> 00:43:08.957 What I would say is that like there and we said this a little bit in our last episode is that there is 00:43:08.957 --> 00:43:13.957 is we can't ignore things like genre. 00:43:18.917 --> 00:43:25.357 We can't ignore things like literary context. We can't ignore things like historical context. 00:43:25.357 --> 00:43:32.637 We can't just rip the Bible out of the context in which it was written, superimpose a 21st century 00:43:32.637 --> 00:43:37.837 postmodern reality onto it and expect that we're gonna have alignment between all of those things 00:43:37.837 --> 00:43:39.596 because they're not the same. 00:43:39.668 --> 00:43:47.023 And the way in which we look at a text, a group of words on a page or a book, 00:43:47.365 --> 00:43:53.154 is so incredibly different than the way someone in Sumeria looked at it, 00:43:53.424 --> 00:43:58.078 the way someone in the ancient Near East looked at it, the way in which they saw literature back then, 00:43:58.123 --> 00:44:00.557 the reason in which they were writing, right? 00:44:00.557 --> 00:44:02.093 Or the purpose for which they were writing. 00:44:02.217 --> 00:44:10.501 So like to say, to say, oh, like, Well, the Bible says, hey, just trust me, bro. 00:44:11.437 --> 00:44:17.595 So then I guess we just gotta trust it. And I just can't, I just can't like get behind 00:44:17.997 --> 00:44:21.412 that level of like, that level of, 00:44:23.645 --> 00:44:24.131 like. 00:44:25.310 --> 00:44:32.800 That methodology, I agree, I wouldn't get behind it either. But I don't think you have to get behind it 00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:40.000 in order to be like, no, I believe the Bible is reliable, I believe that it is an accurate account. 00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:47.540 Of the things that happened in Jesus' life, that there were eyewitnesses to the life 00:44:47.540 --> 00:44:50.615 of this man Jesus in the first century, 00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:58.580 both Jewish and non, who wrote accounts of his life from their perspective, and while there are some differences 00:44:58.580 --> 00:45:00.401 in the details that they account, 00:45:00.464 --> 00:45:07.020 there are not large-scale contradictions in the general thrust of his life and movement 00:45:07.020 --> 00:45:08.500 that's recounted in the gospel. 00:45:08.500 --> 00:45:16.659 And then we have this history of the church being, of his followers being like a group, 00:45:16.820 --> 00:45:21.740 a larger group of his followers being developed and getting to this point where now letters 00:45:21.740 --> 00:45:27.020 are being shared between different communities and leaders in those communities to different communities. 00:45:28.092 --> 00:45:33.740 And as these things are being coalesced over time, and we're not talking a long period of time, 00:45:33.740 --> 00:45:37.868 we're talking about a time period of like 60 to 70 years 00:45:38.260 --> 00:45:45.660 between like the end of Jesus's life and the last essentially book in the New Testament was written. 00:45:46.780 --> 00:45:50.588 And so we're talking about within a generation, Right. 00:45:51.489 --> 00:45:56.224 These texts were being, were kind of starting to bubble towards the top. 00:45:56.520 --> 00:46:04.120 And like I've said, I've used this analogy so many times in my teaching and in classes and in preaching that, 00:46:05.019 --> 00:46:10.000 you know, the community of people. 00:46:12.554 --> 00:46:21.430 At that time, who were gathering around the truth or their own experiences with Jesus, 00:46:23.780 --> 00:46:27.732 and then were integrated into the Christian community that we see in like the Pauline letters, 00:46:29.838 --> 00:46:35.284 had first-hand knowledge, first-hand experience of what was happening. 00:46:35.284 --> 00:46:40.284 And so they actively went about, 00:46:42.477 --> 00:46:50.124 Stomping down. I'll use that term. However violent it may seem stomping down snuffing out, 00:46:51.204 --> 00:47:00.204 delegitimizing accounts written accounts oral accounts That did not faithfully represent, 00:47:01.148 --> 00:47:06.164 the actual Experience of the commute the lived community that was there that was there to experience 00:47:06.564 --> 00:47:16.344 Similar to a way that if we have a had a love like when I die If someone were to write a biography of my life that was just so far-fetched and like didn't happen 00:47:16.758 --> 00:47:20.624 I would expect that those who knew me and were part of my life would be like, 00:47:21.304 --> 00:47:24.784 Immediately go to the press essentially with like a this is not true, 00:47:26.102 --> 00:47:32.624 Do not like we were there. We saw it. We know him. We like it was part of our life and so. 00:47:36.104 --> 00:47:39.234 And that's essentially what happened in the Christian community in the development, 00:47:39.234 --> 00:47:46.194 at least of the New Testament. Now, I anticipate that there's going to be a thousand comments, 00:47:47.843 --> 00:47:53.394 about that in the next video about how, well, like, what about this? What about this? And 00:47:53.394 --> 00:48:02.594 understand, like, my gosh, in a 50 to 60 minute… Yeah, I think we took, like, I don't know, 00:48:02.594 --> 00:48:08.834 Several weeks of hour and a half long teachings to talk about some of this stuff and we didn't even scratch the surface. Yeah, 00:48:09.646 --> 00:48:14.274 like, you know, of course, we can't hit every single nuance to the, 00:48:15.474 --> 00:48:18.674 Building of the christian canon like oh, what about constantine? 00:48:18.674 --> 00:48:27.399 They got all these white men in a room and they all decided what was going to be true. Yeah, that's like a wildly simplistic understanding of those councils 00:48:27.634 --> 00:48:32.914 Council of Nicaea, Council of Constantinople, Council of Trent, or the Council of Trent, 00:48:32.914 --> 00:48:35.429 like, wildly simplistic. 00:48:38.254 --> 00:48:45.194 There are volumes of, there are volumes written on those historical councils, 00:48:46.194 --> 00:48:51.030 by non-Christians that are much more clear. 00:48:54.594 --> 00:49:00.474 About what happened and what didn't happen in those. But anyway, so yeah, understand that we're not gonna be able 00:49:00.474 --> 00:49:02.535 to hit every single nuance, but. 00:49:05.554 --> 00:49:11.195 But there are reasons to trust the Bible as reliable. There are reasons to trust it historically as reliable, 00:49:11.834 --> 00:49:16.834 not simply as or exclusively as a matter of, 00:49:17.914 --> 00:49:21.880 I just am choosing to believe this by faith. 00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:30.614 Right, yeah, I agree. So I do I do think I will I will acknowledge that I do think that the caricature of, 00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:34.178 like the Christian who is, 00:49:35.094 --> 00:49:43.274 kind of just I Don't know kind of a uses the Bible as a bit of a hammer like it does exist 00:49:43.274 --> 00:49:49.490 I think I think it's oh my gosh. Yeah hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I, 00:49:50.310 --> 00:49:53.674 Think our generation of pastors. I think we're becoming more, 00:49:55.063 --> 00:50:06.654 I don't know. Maybe that's just too simplistic to say, but there is a growing group of people who are evangelical in faith, 00:50:07.405 --> 00:50:12.654 but also are willing to understand genre and maybe not take things as. 00:50:14.076 --> 00:50:22.906 Bluntly or as kind of like, I don't know I don't blindly blindly or as kind of simplistically right of just kind of saying like well 00:50:23.306 --> 00:50:28.366 Like that's what it says and it doesn't matter that this is a poem, you know. 00:50:29.526 --> 00:50:35.306 Right, right, you know, uh-huh, you know, that's why you do man. We're gonna get flagged, 00:50:36.206 --> 00:50:47.486 That's why like there are like an amount of flat earthers who are Christian is because they take very, very, very seriously Genesis. 00:50:47.645 --> 00:50:56.170 And if you read Genesis, it kind of describes a flat earth because that's what ancient Middle East people thought. 00:50:56.486 --> 00:51:00.726 And so, you know, it talks about the pillars and the firmament and all of that stuff. 00:51:00.726 --> 00:51:05.846 And so there are some people who. But it's also extraordinarily poetic language. 00:51:06.109 --> 00:51:11.546 Yes. They weren't writing with a 21st century scientific theory mind right, 00:51:12.456 --> 00:51:18.937 Mean you say that but there are people out there who don't right and land in flat earth land, 00:51:19.513 --> 00:51:21.476 Oh my gosh, how could you be so dumb? 00:51:22.526 --> 00:51:30.786 Trust me. I Met some of them Like no Jeepers. How did you get in here? Um, but anyways 00:51:30.786 --> 00:51:38.846 But then what do you say I guess like maybe this is I know we're running up on the upper end of our of our time 00:51:38.846 --> 00:51:47.326 but That's kind of talking about scripture. What do you would say? I don't want to leave miracles unaddressed. Mm-hmm. What do you say about miracles? 00:51:49.221 --> 00:51:50.946 What I would say is that. 00:51:53.740 --> 00:51:58.706 All right, well I would say two things one I would say that they're, 00:52:01.482 --> 00:52:03.826 It depends on who I'm talking to okay. 00:52:08.899 --> 00:52:17.706 And since we're we're talking about this in the context of Those who well, I don't maybe it's not completely fair, 00:52:18.626 --> 00:52:23.946 But it's hard to talk to people who aren't here right well. Yeah it, 00:52:25.140 --> 00:52:26.966 You know I think that, 00:52:29.065 --> 00:52:33.106 if you were to sit down with someone and you were to say okay let's start at the 00:52:33.287 --> 00:52:40.986 boat the most basic level of belief do you believe that there is a Christian 00:52:40.986 --> 00:52:44.126 God and talking about Jewish God I talk about Muslim God talking about Hindu God 00:52:44.521 --> 00:52:48.384 do you believe that there is a God, 00:52:52.425 --> 00:53:00.856 The answer is yes, right which I think for a strong majority of people the answer is, 00:53:02.184 --> 00:53:03.916 yes, right or a, 00:53:05.434 --> 00:53:11.726 Or maybe or at the or maybe right? Okay, so you will even take that Say say, okay, 00:53:12.528 --> 00:53:15.836 if There was a God. Mm-hmm. 00:53:18.514 --> 00:53:41.556 Can we come to a place of agreement that he would be, God would be able to, willing to, and somewhat regularly have 00:53:41.556 --> 00:53:50.876 the power to defy what we can see as the laws of nature in order to essentially, 00:53:51.345 --> 00:54:03.291 insert a miraculous event into life. Yeah, essentially if you acknowledge the potentiality of God existing, do not view by that nature, 00:54:04.192 --> 00:54:11.816 except at least the basic premise because he wouldn't be God if he he wasn't able to do something miraculous. 00:54:11.816 --> 00:54:18.936 And so the question is not so much on, do or do not miracles exist or happen, 00:54:18.936 --> 00:54:20.876 it's more of does God exist? 00:54:20.876 --> 00:54:25.500 If you think God could even potentially exist, you need to at least be willing to accept 00:54:25.914 --> 00:54:27.356 that there could be miracles. 00:54:27.356 --> 00:54:31.036 Because if someone say, no, I completely and categorically deny 00:54:31.036 --> 00:54:33.996 that anything could, that there is any God whatsoever. 00:54:33.996 --> 00:54:37.995 I was like, okay, well, I mean, we're wasting our time talking about whether miracles exist or not, 00:54:39.236 --> 00:54:43.072 because there's no outside basis for which the laws of nature could be flipped. 00:54:45.404 --> 00:54:48.879 Right. But if you acknowledge that there could be a God. Then I think it's a, 00:54:49.796 --> 00:54:57.876 it doesn't take a huge philosophical leap or even logical belief beyond even the agnostic belief 00:54:57.876 --> 00:55:00.676 of maybe potentiality of God, 00:55:00.676 --> 00:55:02.544 that that God would have the power, 00:55:03.036 --> 00:55:10.876 to defy the natural laws, natural laws, which I think that's all the miracle really is. 00:55:10.876 --> 00:55:17.496 It's like the reversing of the flipping of what we see as natural and observable law. 00:55:19.568 --> 00:55:28.660 And so it is like I guess I would I don't know There's probably to take it another step further would be to say like, you know, why don't you know? 00:55:29.058 --> 00:55:32.878 Well, why then don't we see miracles just all over the place Cameron? 00:55:34.791 --> 00:55:39.398 Part of the answer is that well, they wouldn't be miracles then. Um, right, they'd be normal, 00:55:40.318 --> 00:55:45.618 yeah, and the other thing too is that like, you know, when we read the Bible we're reading a, 00:55:47.098 --> 00:55:52.138 condensing of history, human experience, and God intervening. 00:55:53.498 --> 00:55:58.845 Actually in a pretty small chunk of the history of humanity. Right. 00:55:59.058 --> 00:56:04.048 And so, you know, yes, God is on every page because it's the Bible. 00:56:05.178 --> 00:56:10.700 But I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that's, you know, like, yeah, 00:56:10.818 --> 00:56:12.177 there's gonna be miracles in here. 00:56:13.818 --> 00:56:22.511 And, you know, in your span of life, even if you say you lived in the Bible, right? 00:56:23.439 --> 00:56:27.337 In your span of life, how much miracle would you see? 00:56:28.638 --> 00:56:34.179 Probably very little. Right. Very, very little. To us, reading it from our vantage point, 00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:39.994 it seems like, oh my gosh, there was just always this, always these massive things. 00:56:40.075 --> 00:56:48.618 And while there certainly are big miracles in the Bible, absolutely, I don't think it's quite fair to say 00:56:48.618 --> 00:56:49.960 that it's like, just, you know. 00:56:50.218 --> 00:56:52.444 That- Everywhere, all the time. Yes. 00:56:52.921 --> 00:56:55.818 Everyone. Right. And God does absolutely, like inside the Bible, 00:56:55.818 --> 00:57:00.298 God does seem to change how, when, and what kind of miracles he does. 00:57:00.298 --> 00:57:05.939 Like there's, you know, the other thing too, is if you acknowledge there's a God, 00:57:06.092 --> 00:57:09.858 you acknowledge that he's free to do things how he wants to. 00:57:09.858 --> 00:57:15.098 He doesn't have to fit into my categories. So, because God behaved one way at one point in time, 00:57:15.098 --> 00:57:19.358 and he saw that fit, does not necessarily mean that he sees fit to continue 00:57:19.358 --> 00:57:22.678 to do anything under my presumption. 00:57:25.545 --> 00:57:30.675 I'd agree with that. Yeah. Last, the last comment I want to talk about, 00:57:25.545 --> 00:57:22.863 Yeah. 00:57:31.395 --> 00:57:37.715 Because I do think it offers for you and I in our conversations around deconstruction, 00:57:37.715 --> 00:57:41.849 a little bit of a corrective. And I think this is, this is a really fair statement. 00:57:43.631 --> 00:57:50.195 Is he says, because he was talking about how we may have, we may in some of our comments, 00:57:50.195 --> 00:57:55.595 lean a little bit heavy to the side of like, who hurt you that you deconstructed? 00:57:58.795 --> 00:58:07.208 And he said, the harm done acts as a jumping off point, an emotional impetus to start looking at belief. 00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:14.221 It's not the harm that necessarily causes the deconstruction, it may be the springboard, 00:58:14.977 --> 00:58:18.475 the emotional impetus needed in order to start examining belief. 00:58:18.475 --> 00:58:20.873 I think that's a really fair and good statement, 00:58:23.315 --> 00:58:28.635 and accurate and one that, as we're talking about deconstruction and kind of examining it ourselves, 00:58:28.635 --> 00:58:31.217 that we shouldn't overlook. Yeah. 00:58:35.395 --> 00:58:42.155 And I also think, who hurt you? Yeah. Who hurt you? Yeah. 00:58:43.115 --> 00:58:51.835 Maybe tongue in cheek a little bit, but I still do think that personal hurt causes a lot of... 00:58:51.835 --> 00:58:57.835 Well, as pastors, right? Like we, I would say particularly in our gifting set, 00:58:57.835 --> 00:59:01.715 the things that you and I are particularly good at and called to do as pastors, 00:59:01.715 --> 00:59:04.813 like I think the two of us are, 00:59:05.533 --> 00:59:11.955 if I were to say like the two areas that we thrive in would be teaching the Bible and shepherding 00:59:11.955 --> 00:59:15.395 or like pastoral care and counseling. 00:59:16.327 --> 00:59:23.511 And we've sat in the room with enough people to know that if I were to sit down, I know this. 00:59:23.675 --> 00:59:28.210 If I sit down with someone and they say, Pastor Luke, like, you know, 00:59:29.355 --> 00:59:32.155 a lot of times the way I say it's like, what brings you in today? 00:59:32.155 --> 00:59:37.051 You know, if they've like set up a meeting with me. And rarely is the thing the thing. 00:59:38.518 --> 00:59:42.288 Almost never it's almost never the thing. There's almost always something else 00:59:42.288 --> 00:59:51.976 And so I don't say that to be patronizing I don't mean that to dismiss the honest intellectual wrestling of people who are deconstructing. I, 00:59:53.008 --> 01:00:01.168 absolutely understand that I Also have just done enough work with my own self and with other people to know that 01:00:01.168 --> 01:00:02.464 the. 01:00:03.648 --> 01:00:10.728 Hurt you've experienced even if it was the starting point and it is now morphed into some intellectual, 01:00:11.601 --> 01:00:16.508 Honesty and wrestling. I would also say I would push back a little bit and say, 01:00:17.435 --> 01:00:21.248 Can you be emotionally honest and admit that that hurt? 01:00:22.323 --> 01:00:29.088 While is not the sum total of your deconstruction is perhaps playing a bigger role even now than maybe you 01:00:29.088 --> 01:00:35.968 intellectually would like to acknowledge. So when you say, tongue-in-cheek, I get it. 01:00:35.968 --> 01:00:42.288 Like, I never want to hear someone's deconstruction story. Like, oh, that's nice. Someone must 01:00:42.288 --> 01:00:44.648 have hurt you. Like, and just kind of dismiss it out of hand. 01:00:44.648 --> 01:00:50.808 It's not dismissive, no. Don't want to do that. But we also want to be what we are and pastors. 01:00:50.808 --> 01:00:56.928 Yeah, right. Also, be honest. Like, let us be honest with you when we say, like, in my 01:00:56.928 --> 01:01:01.008 experience I've been doing this for almost 20 years now the number of people, 01:01:01.933 --> 01:01:07.073 that have sat in my office or that I've shared a cup of coffee with or that, 01:01:07.968 --> 01:01:12.070 I've been in their living room as their life is falling apart right like the, 01:01:13.248 --> 01:01:22.449 issue is almost never the issue yes and and that goes with all manner of people, 01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:27.824 like well you never you obviously don't know someone whose life was really fun Listen man like. 01:01:30.614 --> 01:01:37.504 We've seen it all There's not much that can surprise. There's neither you or I I would be shocked if I was ever shocked again, 01:01:38.144 --> 01:01:41.534 at the reality of human experience, right and. 01:01:43.955 --> 01:01:48.504 So we're not naive we're not naive it's we're not ignorant we don't know everything 01:01:48.504 --> 01:01:55.442 I don't know everything but we're not coming at this from a place of just blind ignorance or naivety. Yeah, no, 01:01:57.207 --> 01:02:06.434 Anyway, thanks for listening again, hope you enjoyed this conversation. 01:02:06.767 --> 01:02:12.736 I don't have any idea if we'll continue this particular pathway, I mean, I suppose if we 01:02:12.904 --> 01:02:18.605 get a lot of comments that continue, maybe we will, maybe we won't. 01:02:18.944 --> 01:02:23.184 Seems like to be a growing edge with both of us to talk about this kind of stuff, but 01:02:23.184 --> 01:02:25.424 we do have other things that we like to talk about. 01:02:25.424 --> 01:02:38.184 We do we also have others we have a lot on our plate. Yes. Yeah, I Question are you gonna record an episode next week? Cuz you're gonna be gone. I'm gonna be gone. I'm taking a brief, 01:02:38.944 --> 01:02:46.624 Vacation with my wife to celebrate our honeymoon or well try our honeymoon again. Yeah, I was just I was very very sick 01:02:46.624 --> 01:02:48.624 I'm our honeymoon. So we're trying again, 01:02:49.224 --> 01:02:54.424 You could maybe interview somebody. Yeah, I think maybe I will try. Yeah to do an episode next week 01:02:54.424 --> 01:02:56.163 I don't know how I'm gonna edit it or get it up well 01:02:56.464 --> 01:03:01.324 You can do it when you get back because you're gonna be back. Yeah, I'll be back. You can just record it 01:03:01.384 --> 01:03:04.324 Yeah, you can just put it you record it, and you just put it in Google Drive 01:03:04.324 --> 01:03:09.684 I'll upload it on Sunday or something like yeah cool. Okay. Yeah, maybe I'll maybe I'll have Jessica on or. 01:03:12.511 --> 01:03:17.344 You'll do a monologue or I'll find I'll find something you'll do something yeah, yeah, all right 01:03:17.344 --> 01:03:21.384 I love the energy all right Sounds good. Hey. Thanks for listening like comment subscribe 01:03:21.567 --> 01:03:24.144 Subscribe, wherever it is you are listening. 01:03:24.144 --> 01:03:27.744 If you have any questions that you, maybe you're listening and you can't comment, 01:03:27.744 --> 01:03:33.243 but you wanna ask a question, we have a text number for the podcast, 716-201-0507. 01:03:33.304 --> 01:03:37.798 Thanks for joining us at our little retreat. If anyone wants to loan us like, 01:03:39.344 --> 01:03:42.784 a little over 100 grand, this place is for sale, and we would love to buy it. 01:03:42.784 --> 01:03:47.971 Ow! We'd love to have it. Anyway, thanks, and we'll catch you next time.