Jack 0:00 I'm not nihilist about it, and far from it, but nothing is really that important if you're talking about like that transition into true adulthood and figuring out who you are, like realizing how insignificant Steven Evans 0:13 right Jack 0:14 you are is it's actually kind of freeing, actually now, and that's really I would say something I'd become more and more conscious about, really. The last two to three years, I have so little control over where I'm gonna end up and how life is gonna go, like something tomorrow I could tomorrow and get into a car accident and be paralyzed or something, God forbid. But just like not necessarily worrying about like these goals I set out for myself, I still have dreams that I want to achieve them, whatever. Not going to go into detail about what they are, but I have high hopes for my life. But frankly, like I'm coming to the realization consciously that, like, we've already treated Jane, man, you All Steven Evans 1:08 right. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show, and for being willing to share your story, and to tell the truth about your experience. It really matters, and it really means a lot to us, and to our audience, and to me personally, thank you very, very much. So, if you were to jump in and begin your story, you know, how would you sort of start it? Jack 1:31 How would I start my story? How I've lived either most of my life in suburban New Jersey or Manhattan. Steven Evans 1:37 When we think about, like, the earlier parts of your, let's say, your story, when you think about, like, the leaving home, as an example, leaving home with, you know, from your parents, and what was the picture that you had of yourself then, and around who you believed you were, and what was the story perhaps you were telling yourself about who you were becoming, Jack 2:00 you know, I don't know if I knew that right when I left home. We were told, like, oh, you got to go to college to get a good job, and you know, the thought of working and having to make your living immediately at 18 was definitely less appealing than going to a four-year school and hanging out with a bunch of people your own age for a few years, but also, right, I mean, I wasn't doing a student loan calculus versus, you know, what I could have been making with maybe some sort of apprenticeship or trade or something like that, Steven Evans 2:30 right. Jack 2:31 Well, I know it could have ended up, my life could have ended up a lot better than it is now if I just skipped college altogether. I don't, I'd like to believe that's not true, Steven Evans 2:39 right. Jack 2:39 Certainly, those, the four years I spent at Rutgers, I had the time of my life. In fact, most of my friends and kind of my roots in this area, I think I largely owe due to going to, you know, our flagship university here. I definitely have Jersey Pride now. If I really wanted to be a Rutgers show, I would say Jersey Roots Global Reach, but I guess about a year into college that was the first time where, like, nobody was really forcing you right to do anything, and I learned that I liked learning, and that by just putting in the effort and showing up, you could go pretty far. Yeah, and that was actually, that was surprising to me, and it was surprisingly how many people don't do that. So, I don't.. my first year I had a lot of academic success. I'd always been interested in kind of the legal or political world, and by the end of my first year in college, I knew I wanted to go to law school, become a lawyer, and I don't know.. who knows, I'm a lawyer now, politics and everything else. I'll stay away from that for now, but my interest is still definitely there. I had some really great professors my first year too, and that I think really drove kind of pushed me in that direction. Steven Evans 3:54 And the idea, sort of, of the, you know, working hard, showing up, right? I feel like that is in large part 60% you know, of ultimately what it, what it requires, whether it's a good grade or good review from a manager, right, showing up is, you know, a little more than 50% right. So, how did you, or where did you pick up that, that sort of drive, you know, who taught you that? Jack 4:19 I think both my parents were certainly very hard working people, and both were actually very passionate in their respective kind of careers. Both my parents worked full time, and I guess just seeing them kind of throw themselves into their work and their and their careers kind of.. I had a, I had a, an easy path to follow in that regard. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's it, right? Your parents are your models, for the most part, Steven Evans 4:49 right? Was there ever any tension between sort of the what they were modeling and sort of what you wanted to do? No, Jack 4:58 actually, it's funny you say that, um. My parents are definitely more artsy than I am. I would say they're the ones who took more risks in their, like, careers and life choices than me. Risks in that, you know, pursuing your dreams, or at least their dreams were more risky than mine. I rebelled and became a lawyer. You've never heard somebody say that in their life. My, my dad's a still working actor to this day, but had spent most of his career doing is a lot of success and a lot of off-Broadway shows. He's been in some Broadway shows too, even recently, and some film and TV stuff too. My mom worked in the arts and was an actress herself for a while, but I don't know if she thinks she got as much work or something, and she pivoted and got kind of a more stable career, which now that I am that person in that more kind of stable, predictable kind of lawyer job, I definitely see the value in that. I think somebody has to do that, or at least you have to take turns. I'm sure we're gonna, we're gonna maybe touch on this a little bit more later. Steven Evans 5:58 Sure, Jack 5:59 but seeing them, I mean, my dad would be up at like 536 in the morning, would help us get out out the door. I see it's funny, I see these kids lining up for the bus at 830 or so, or 815 Bus was way earlier when I was a kid, it was not even light out. I think it's better, right? I was putting my head down in first period every day in high school, I remember putting my head down first period every day in high school, so tired all the time was not the best high school student. That's one of those things where maybe I just didn't know how to apply myself. Then I still did fine, right? My life ended up fine and did well enough in high school to go to college, but terms of like, did I perform according to my ability at that time? Definitely not. I'm really kind of circling back to the question you asked, which is my parents were working 12 to 16 hours a day. It was like it was expected, or I saw that model, right? My dad would leave at six and get back at midnight. My mom would, after you know, we had eaten dinner at night or something, she would get back on her computer. She drafted several, like, English, English as a second language textbooks. I remember her getting working on that every night and thinking, 'Wow, that sucks. And, yeah, now that I've been in that position, I know it's not - it's not actually as bad as it looked to me at the time, but that was like my model, right? I expected I didn't have any expectations when I went to college, but now that I'm in this situation, this is like what I expected adult life to be, Steven Evans 7:23 right? So it sounds like they set a foundation for you to grow from, and that allowed you to not only sort of see the tenants of hard work, for example, that is required, but you saw examples of what that might look like, so you were able to sort of put yourself in their shoes and say, okay, this is normal, you know? Like, if I am working 16 hour days, 18 hour days, or whatever it is, I'm providing for my family, and this is part of what everybody does. Jack 7:53 Yeah, I don't know if I thought about it actively. Steven Evans 7:56 Yeah, Jack 7:57 now that occasionally I am doing that, actually, I have a my job is thankfully not like that all the time. I've had jobs that were like that. Yeah, but yeah, I guess I maybe internalized it. I think when I was younger, especially maybe that first year in college or something, it was more about just kind of throwing yourself into whatever you were doing. Let me just acknowledge, by the way, that having two parents working like that, and just like kind of showing you the way, you just, you're that's such a big head start for lifetime, such a big head start, like your chances of success, if that's where you're starting from is is going to be pretty high, Steven Evans 8:35 yeah, I Jack 8:35 acknowledge that, like this is where we are sitting here right now, this is like the expected outcome, Steven Evans 8:40 right. Jack 8:41 Essentially, I didn't outperform necessarily expectations or anything like that. Maybe those expectations were high and started with more resources than a lot of folks, but Steven Evans 8:49 yeah, that makes sense. And like, if we were to focus on sort of the years that you first were in college, right, and how did those first few years challenge the belief that you had about who you were when you first left home, you know, from that foundation of, you know, showing up, working hard. How, how were those first few years obviously formative, but I'd like to learn. I Jack 9:14 mean, I, I guess I really developed a lot of leadership skills during that time I always kind of felt comfortable in that role, but I definitely I liked working with a group towards something and pushing for that, and that's something I feel like I'm doing now in my current role, but I was in fraternity in college, that was definitely a formative part of that experience. There's the normal fraternity stuff, but really it's just a large group of people trying to achieve a certain goal, and that goal might be increase your campus credibility or raise this amount of money for a certain cause, or I guess create relationships, or whatever it is. I always felt comfortable speaking out. Or taking initiative on something, so in that, like, kind of social role, I felt like I really kind of, I grew in that way, or I already had these skills to some degree, I would say, I did like a teen leadership program at a YMCA when I was in high school, and at first it was just a really great place to hang out with people who are not from either my town or my middle school or my high school or something. Hang out with some folks who came from different places than me. I mean, there definitely were some like leadership development kind of classes and stuff like that that definitely played a part. Yeah, it's more of like coming back to like that, just kind of being where you are and having passion and throwing yourself into throwing yourself in 100% to whatever you're doing at that time. When I was in the fraternity, that was it, right? I took on that social role, outward-facing role, either recruiting people or like getting fraternity brothers to sign up for particular activities, and like, yeah, I had no problem cold calling recruits or calling up my brother, my frat brothers at the time, and say, like, all right, you guys have to show up here. I have no problem walking to the door and knocking on it, just like I did on your door, actually. And that's how we're here. But even in class, or something like that, what's the point of being there if you're not going to engage? I guess that's that's really just if I had to kind of distill that period of my life, it would be what's the point of being there if you're not going to engage, and so I just tried to engage in as much as I could, as often as I could, with as many people as I could, Steven Evans 11:33 right, and it sounds like, though, the strategies that you learned early on really helped in terms of one not only showing up, but also engaging the other people who were there, who might have also shared that belief, you know, and organizing people, whether it was in the fraternity or whether it was outside of the fraternity, for showing up to things that would benefit them or benefit a cause, right, so these are I would say elements that sort of follow the string, if you will, of your, of your story so far. Jack 12:07 Yeah, I mean, even in, like, even in class or study groups or something, like I always want to engage with this with, like, my fellow students, or certainly with the professor. I mean, there's a really smart people who have, like, interesting thoughts. They certainly like to hear themselves talk. I can't say I don't just taking advantage of that resource and being there, and when you're talking, it's really hard to fall asleep. So that first year, where you don't really get to pick your schedule, and you have those early morning classes, if you can just talk with the professor and all that, or ask some questions during the lecture becomes a lot more interesting and engaging that way, definitely. So, maybe started off that way, but long term, right? That's how people give you the benefit of the doubt too. If they think you're engaged and you care, and you're straddling between a B plus or an A or something like that, right? Show up to those office hours, you know, engage, be memorable, Steven Evans 13:01 right? Jack 13:02 Things typically work out for you. If that's the case, Steven Evans 13:04 yeah, I agree. And I feel like it's so, so important to put yourself in the opportunity, give yourself the opportunity to be seen, but then to be selected, right? It's always like luck isn't necessarily something that just happens out of the blue. You have to position yourself for the luck to strike, whether it's through hard work, through showing up, but you got to do 85% of the work for luck to sort of get you that next 10 or 15% Jack 13:32 Yeah, I mean, and I definitely had made some relationships with professors that probably wrote me some very good letters of recommendation for law school. Steven Evans 13:41 Yeah, Jack 13:42 I'm sure that helped with my admissions and all that, and that's not why I started in that's not why I engaged in the first place. But when I eventually, after my first year, when I knew that was like a path I was probably going to pursue, it certainly was helpful. I was generally interested in the material and what they had to say and all that, and I tended to take multiple classes with the people whose teaching styles I enjoyed, or the subject matter was particularly interesting. Shout out to Professor McCoy, Professor Bathory, Andrew Murphy - these were some really great poli sci professors at Rutgers at the time I was there. Steven Evans 14:17 Wow, yeah, and what I was going to ask was, there any particular, like, subject or class that really spoke to you, and that kind of spoke to, you know, your heart and taught you lessons that you kept. Jack 14:30 I don't know about my heart, but certainly my mind. Any sort of like political philosophy course I really enjoyed, and in retrospect, now I've been educated in the classics, right, like Aristotle, Plato, all these, or all the, or all these Enlightenment thinkers, and all that. Like, I've read a lot of their works. Don't, don't quiz me now. I won't, don't worry, I won't remember much, but at least when you engage in that sort of thinking, right, you can feel like the neural pathways building in your head, and all that, and there's little. Sometimes there'd be room for debate. There's room for a lot of the stuff is very vaguely written or allows for a lot of interpretation, so kind of a lot of the courses that had that sort of conversation about a particular philosophical stance someone was like, let's take John Hobbs for example, and social contract and all that. I'm not going to go into detail, but like, sometimes professors would put, like, rhetorical questions out there, because they know maybe they can sense the class is kind of drifting or something like that. But I'd always answer them. I'd always raise my hand to answer them, but, like, oh, does anyone see how this sort of this, like, philosophical subject we're discussing today, or has application to our situation today. I notice, actually, in certainly in the intro level classes, the professors would stay away from kind of the more like, how does this fit to our more current narrative, or something, or they might say, does anyone have like an historic something, some sort of historical example where they can give an example of where, like, the ruler breached, you know, the social contract. What happened then? And Hobbes was writing, I think, about the Glorious Revolution in England, and Oliver Oliver Cromwell, and that kind of time period, and all that. Anyway, this is the sort of those were the sorts of things that I gravitated towards, and sometimes I would go a little bit more in the philosophical, I would drift more towards the philosophical classes, and other times I had a really great professor who did a lot of like game theory and foreign policy stuff, which I thought was like really interesting. Yeah, anyway, I chose my senior thesis on a foreign policy question, or not necessarily foreign policy question, but kind of more about like democratization in China, and all that. I said in 2011 or 2012 I said, "Oh, I think it's starting to happen, and turns out that wasn't the case, and I was totally wrong. And my process of writing that I knew academia wasn't for me, and now I'm very happy I went with a more grounded - not that academia isn't grounded, but you know it's less, it's more tangible. Yeah, like my law and legal work. Yeah, Steven Evans 17:06 absolutely. I mean, when you think about that time, too, like was there any, like, a belief that you were carrying, or perhaps an experience that took years to unlearn, or maybe something that you, you know, served you in one chapter, but is not serving you in the next. Jack 17:23 Yes, definitely. So, being engaging 100% of the time, actively and very visibly, it can rub people the wrong way, and sometimes you just got to learn to take a step back and learn when not to talk. So, you know, law school, I, I definitely, I think, learned maybe more when to speak, not being more judicious, I guess it's, I have an inclination to want to be gregarious and outgoing, and I don't want to say, like, dominate a conversation or something, that's that's not, that's not really capturing what I'm trying to say, but sometimes it's just best to let other people do the talking, I guess, and let other folks be the center of attention. And my four years in college, definitely, I definitely had a more desire for the limelight than I do now, and I think in once I got to law school, and I was around other people who were just as smart, just as hard working, equally capable, in sometimes in other ways, maybe, but many people, even a lot of them, even way smarter than me, actually. Humility, I guess, would be, would be another addition to that, right? I guess that's kind of part of the same, that's part of the same concept. I'm saying, like, you don't need to be the center of attention, you don't always need to be talking, you don't always need to be the most important thing, because I almost never am, right? Steven Evans 18:54 Yeah, Jack 18:55 but, yeah, like, when you're there's also kind of like a small fish or a big fish situation, right, when you're an undergrad, and if especially at Rutgers, right, like you could get the best education in the world there, but it's still not the most academically rigorous and competitive environment, like law school was certainly more so that Steven Evans 19:13 I see, Jack 19:13 definitely more rigorous, I mean, I don't know about most, but a good portion of the folks were from the Ivy Leagues and all that, or from like fancy liberal arts schools or something. There's some state school kids like myself there, but maybe they were a little bit more prepared for that environment than I was at the time. So I definitely learned some humility. It was actually really invigorating, too, right? Being around people who were even better spoken than I was, smarter than I was, and had really interesting perspectives and things to say, and very different career goals or backgrounds or something. So that was, I could, you could feel like, again, neural pathways forming. I really love that feeling of, you can like feel yourself get. Smarter. Have you ever had that feeling? Steven Evans 20:01 I have, Jack 20:01 like, you can feel yourself learning, Steven Evans 20:04 correct? Jack 20:04 I felt that in college, but not especially when I got a good professor. It was like a challenging subject, and maybe there would be a couple of other students who were just as engaged with me, and maybe it'd be like three or four of us out of a class of like 40 or 50 or something. Steven Evans 20:18 Yeah, Jack 20:19 but in law school every single person is like that all the time. I just like studying with like five or six people for an exam, and not just a memorization, but how to like really kind of block out information in a way that was logical and synthesized, and all that. And sometimes you'd actually debate the concepts behind it too, and you could do that a little bit more after your first year, when the classes are less doctrinal and all that, but there was definitely a humbling.. I wouldn't say I'm humble now, but I'm certain every, every year that, as I've gotten older, I've definitely gotten a little bit more humility. I wouldn't say I'm a humble person yet, you know what it is, I'm not great enough to be humble yet, only truly the really great folks can be humble, because they're completely comfortable, Steven Evans 21:06 right? Jack 21:06 Right, they know they already know they're the best. Everybody knows they're the best, and so they don't have to do anything to convince people otherwise. Whereas we're early to mid career at this point, I would say that the next five to 10 years is really where maybe 10 years from now we can be truly humble. Steven Evans 21:24 I think, Jack 21:25 yeah, I would say that would be as time has gone on, and every kind of new life stage I've had to be a little bit more humble, a little bit more recognizing my own limits and know where my strengths are. I've gotten better at that every year I get older, Steven Evans 21:41 yeah. So, Jack 21:41 but that was definitely the big jump. Steven Evans 21:43 Yeah, I agree. And, like, when it comes to knowing yourself, what were some of the unconscious structures that you were navigating during that time? You know, from college to law school, from a formation identity formation perspective, you know, you had your sense of who you were, you wanted to be virtuous, you wanted to do the right thing, but tell me more. What was some of that subconscious landscape there Jack 22:10 that's hard to be conscious about what I was unconscious about? Yeah, I don't know, maybe I guess nothing I'm doing or who I am is really like that big a deal. You're really so wrapped up in yourself at that time that, like, I don't want - I'm not trying to - I'm not nihilist about it, and far from it, but it's nothing is really that important at that age, especially if you're talking about like that transition into true adulthood and figuring out who you are, like realizing how insignificant Steven Evans 22:39 right Jack 22:40 you are is actually kind of freeing, actually. Now, and that's really, I would say that's really been something I've become more and more conscious about, really, the last two to three years. Once I have a son, once I've kind of unplugged from New York City a little bit, now I have a little bit more. It's quieter here. Steven Evans 22:57 Yeah, Jack 22:58 it's quiet. Move to the suburbs, feeling it's really, it's really not so bad. Recommend every, every day. It would have been nice to have gone out in the streets and been a hula again, like the rest of the Knicks fans last night. Great, just had to be okay, saying, yeah, good, good work, guys. 10 off the TV and go to bed. Yep, but yeah, I would say not worrying about it as much, worrying about it being life or whatever, like there's only so many things you can control. That's something, as a father, I've definitely become more controlling, more controlling about my environment, because I can't be as control. I have no control over so many more things in my life now. I've definitely become more controlling about, like, my immediate environment, and how clean everything is, and yeah, this is that this has actually been a crazy development in the last, like, year or two. I mean, Steven Evans 23:50 it probably helps in terms of servicing not only, like, excellence in terms of work, but, like, you, everything has its place, everything in its place. Jack 24:00 Yes, you know, and I know you feel the same, because when I walked in here, everything looks very nice to you. Steven Evans 24:07 We cleaned, we cleaned, but Jack 24:10 like, okay, but it was actually right before you guys came over last week where we, we like kind of picked up our house or something, and it's like your house can be a little bit messy, and all that, but it can't be more than like an hour or two away from being really nice. Steven Evans 24:25 Yeah, I hear you. Yes, I agree. But with kids, you know, oh Jack 24:29 yeah, are we allowed to curse? Yeah, they just like to, they just like to mess with you, like, oh yeah, they don't know, but yeah, I hate small plastic things now. Oh, of course, no more goodie bags, folks. Anyone who listens to this podcast, if you're doing a birthday party, we don't need goody bags. My kids like them, but they forget about them in like 12 hours, you know. Steven Evans 24:54 Yes, all the small tinker, yes, toys, and tattoos, and stickers, the bottoms of. My Jack 25:00 feet, well, thank you. Yeah, Steven Evans 25:01 my gosh, wow. Jack 25:03 But, yeah, become more controlling over my environment, but big picture things, I.. that's like, I become conscious about that was something I was kind of unconscious about, of like, I have so little control over where I'm gonna end up, and how life is going to go, like something tomorrow. I could tomorrow and get into a car accident, and you know, be paralyzed or something. God, God forbid, but there's just like so little. My sister just hit a deer last night. I'm really going on a tangent here, but just like not necessarily worrying about like these goals I set out for myself. Maybe I still have dreams that I want to achieve them, whatever. Not going to go into detail about what they are, but I've high hopes for my life. But, frankly, like I'm coming to the realization consciously that, like, we've already treated Jane, man, like we're living, we're living like the American dream. Steven Evans 25:59 Yeah, Jack 25:59 and maybe there's less and less folks that can do it, but it really is amazing. Yeah, it is amazing. Yeah, I feel so thankful here with your fancy micro sitting here with your fancy microphones talking to you. You're welcome, Steven Evans 26:10 man. Anytime, are you kidding? This is part of it, and part of it is understanding how we got here. You know, how what are the mechanisms driving the sort of passages, right, you know, the journey, because that's what's most important, but it's also something that's always overlooked, you know, it's like, how did you endure the four years in school, and then however many years of law school, and then however many years clerking, or whatever you decided to do, right, to ultimately get to a place in your career that you could say, all right, I've, I've achieved that goal that I set, you know, 10 years ago, right. And when you get to, you know, that goal, sure, feels awesome, but really it's about, like you said, this, the intelligence you built on the way, and you can feel yourself getting smarter, and you can feel yourself absorbing new things, being able to grok new things, and like that, I feel like is the benefit of the journey. Jack 27:06 I mean, I could really sum it up in like three sentences how I got here. Steven Evans 27:09 Yeah, Jack 27:10 one, I am not the first lawyer in my family, I've seen other people do it, and I have a good example, I had inspiration and example to follow. Two, my parents were well educated and hard working, and I saw that, and so I grew up with that expectation of that's how my life was going to be, and three, we weren't poor, Steven Evans 27:32 yeah, Jack 27:33 that's like that's essentially it, so I was able to get into the room, I might not, especially in law school, there's some much wealthier people than me, there, like Rutgers, not so much. Everybody was kind of, you know, there's a wide diversity of, I say, I'd say economic background, but once I went to that private law school, that was really like a whole different world. But I was not so far outside of that circle that I couldn't push my way in. Steven Evans 27:55 Yeah, Jack 27:55 right, right, Steven Evans 27:56 right. Jack 27:57 And example, I had inspiration, I had example, and at least enough money to get me in the room, and I really had to leverage for law school to get there, but like it's paid off. Steven Evans 28:11 Yeah, Jack 28:12 and not everybody, I mean, most people don't have that Steven Evans 28:15 right, Jack 28:16 so I don't know, maybe it's not obtainable in this way for everybody, or it would be much harder, be much, much harder. I definitely, I acknowledge that as much as I can, right? That, like, certainly. Yes, I worked hard, I did, I achieved academically, I worked, I showed up, but there are many people who are very smart and very hard working, and don't get half as far. Steven Evans 28:42 Yeah, so yes, luck's part Jack 28:44 of it. There's a little bit of luck in there too, but Steven Evans 28:46 yeah, yeah, I agree. And when it comes to sort of that experience of transitioning from schooling to then working, right, that passage of okay, now I'm learning to now I'm applying everything that I've learned, and the transition between sort of that identity of a learner to I'm now producing. Right, walk me through that change. Jack 29:12 I think this is the easiest part. Steven Evans 29:14 Sure, Jack 29:15 this is the easiest part, because I spent seven years like learning how to think essentially, and now I'm just doing, Steven Evans 29:24 yeah, Jack 29:24 not that again, it's hard work and all that, but this is the most fun once you are already out there doing it, I know there's no better feeling, there's no better feeling than I like all the time, I'm in every day I get to walk into a room of people who are as smart or smarter than me, as hard working or harder working than me, working towards the same goal, there's.. it can be very complicated, and takes sometimes it takes a while to like unravel a problem, and, and such, that the real expertise is like distilling what I've learned over a year. Ever into like five minute summary for you in a way that you can understand, I guess that's that's true expert level, and I'm sure in your profession you could probably do the same thing. Steven Evans 30:15 I would say yes, but it's all it's only because of the familiarity that you end up getting with the material, right, and you know you're ultimately you're working in the subject, and you have to become that, that master, you know. Yeah, Jack 30:29 I will say there. This is this is now that we're in the real world, or in the workforce, you can see who has it and who does not, even if they have the same credentials or better, Steven Evans 30:42 yeah, Jack 30:43 come from even more means than you or less, right? You can always see who has it and who doesn't. When someone, when someone talks to you about something that they're working on or working through, you can tell who has it and who doesn't. Steven Evans 30:57 I agree, and yeah, Jack 30:58 I don't know. It's a good feeling being someone, see, all right. Now I'm coming back to the human. This is a, this is coming back to the, the humility thing. Steven Evans 31:07 Sure, I'm Jack 31:07 just gonna say that it's great to feel comfortable. It's great to feel like I'm excelling. Steven Evans 31:13 Yeah, Jack 31:14 I'll say that, Steven Evans 31:14 and I'm sure it adds a certain layer to sort of the identity that you had been building from high school. Jack 31:22 Yes, so high school, I did not like high school. I'm just gonna say it, sure. Especially my first years, I definitely was bullied a bit, like that was just really not fun. I'm sorry. Second two years, you know, I got on the varsity team for football and all that. I was a very mediocre player, but like I definitely control was a contributing, like useful player on that team, and I guess being part of that, and also frankly putting on them, putting on, you know, 30 to 40 pounds of muscle in a year or two, like certainly helped with the bullying, but getting to the point where, wait, how did we get back to you said high school year, Steven Evans 32:00 how did that identity that you developed after law school? Oh, like Jack 32:03 having it Steven Evans 32:04 exactly layer on top. Yeah, Jack 32:07 okay. This is really corny. Steven Evans 32:09 Sure, Jack 32:10 but it's like you can feel even when you're on that journey, you can feel whether it's it. Steven Evans 32:15 Yeah, Jack 32:16 I don't know how this is gonna sound once you start playing it, and sound like we're tricking something. We're not, but I guess just like the feeling of mastery of whatever it is, whether you've mastered a particular set of facts or problem, or you've like done an investigation and figure out what happened. This is more kind of touching on what I do, but like you figure out what happened, you know how you can prove it, and you know how you would present it to somebody who has no idea what you were talking, like, has no background in it. Have you ever just gotten, when you're working, you feel like you just feel like you're in the flow? Yeah, and like, if someone you know, someone else on your team calls you and they say, Steve, I have a question about this, are you seeing this? Are you seeing clients saying this right? And you just, you like, you know the answer, and you can just that feeling of just being able to answer that question or deliver that solution, or whatever it is, that's it, right? And it feels good when you're doing it, and people trust you when you say it, Steven Evans 33:14 right? Jack 33:15 That's just really actually a great feeling, and I think when you have it, it doesn't really matter whether it's like your job or your marriage or your friendships, and all that, like you just feel whatever that it is when it, when it's happening. Steven Evans 33:30 I agree, yeah. And it sounds like it is not necessarily for other people, right? It's not like helping all the other people, although it might, right, Jack 33:41 indirectly, indirectly, right, because you're better when you're in Steven Evans 33:45 it, yeah, right, you know, and so, but it's something deeper, it's sort of like a satisfaction that comes from commitment Jack 33:54 to excellence, Steven Evans 33:54 yeah, Jack 33:55 that's yes, and like I think if you have that commitment to excellence, you will have Steven Evans 34:03 it. Yeah, Jack 34:03 and I'm not excellent all the time, or anything like that. I certainly, you make mistakes, or you don't have a good day, or you flub an answer, or you're it's your first time on a podcast. So now I feel like we're hitting a little bit of flow. You can feel it when you're a parent. I can see it, I can even see it when we're like, let's say, word at some neighborhood thing, or whatever, you can tell who's like really dialed into that moment, like for example that barbecue when you guys came over, I definitely had it, Steven Evans 34:33 yeah, absolutely, Jack 34:34 I like, I felt it then it was the same thing as like when I've like cracked the case at work or something, like I just had that feeling, you know. If I could spend my whole life feeling that, I would die happy. Steven Evans 34:46 Yeah, Jack 34:47 maybe you were gonna get there. Like, where do you see your life going, or something? As long as I maybe not, but if I am in.. if I have this feeling, and it's like truly.. it's like I cleaned my kitchen at night, everything is in its place, coming. Back to that, like control over your space, and all that. It's really still part of just like that commitment to excellence, and being in it. Steven Evans 35:06 Yeah, Jack 35:07 yeah, yeah. That's, and I want to live my, the rest of my life like that. Steven Evans 35:10 Yeah, and I feel like not only is it a commitment to excellence, but it's also wrapped so closely to what is important to you, you know, right, it's, it's, it is excellence in and of itself, but it is also, you know, foundational on parents working hard, you know, showing up, making sure to endure or overcome setbacks and bullying, and then choosing action over retreat and victimization, right, and all these things that then ultimately led you to where you are at this moment, right. So it is, yes, commitment to excellence, but it's also more than that, right. It's, it's for me, identity creation, right. These are the pieces, creation, these are the pieces of Jack that lend to your success. Jack 36:00 Yeah, I guess, I guess that is like really central to my identity, yeah. And I've noticed, and this is, I would say, kind of the major change into, I'm recently 34 years old, so now I think I can officially say I'm middle aged. This has been the sort of thing now that when somebody just doesn't have habit in that way, Eve, or even folks who I love and have been in my life for a long time, and I value highly, and all that, when they don't have it, like writ large, not just in a particular, you know, when someone's just having an off day, or an off week, or an off month, or something like that, like we've all had that, Steven Evans 36:34 right? Jack 36:35 I'm talking just as a personality trait, does not have like a commitment to being the best they can, or something that's just like the most disappointing thing, and I have way less patience for that, Steven Evans 36:47 right? Jack 36:48 And I guess I've just.. I judge people differently now than I would have, like, 10 years ago, Steven Evans 36:55 yeah, or even Jack 36:56 five years ago. Steven Evans 36:57 It's a lot of, especially because of the kids, I'm sure you know, Jack 37:01 yeah, I mean, really, that's just like that's just made my life have a lot more logistics to it, so like let's take an example where you set aside time for something, or an activity, or something, when someone's like really late, by the way, sorry for being a little late, but like when you set aside time, something, and like someone wastes your time like that in a careless way, that's something now that I really, that really irks me. Steven Evans 37:27 Yeah, Jack 37:27 especially like, for example, someone doesn't have the same sort of obligations that I do, and they, you know, are late, or I show up somewhere and they stand me up or something, like just because of like absence of mind or something, or waste my time, and all that, that you know, five seven years ago, whatever, but now, now that really, and it's the same sort of the person who does that, is also just kind of like that in the rest of their lives, Steven Evans 37:58 right, Jack 37:58 that's really what it is, it's not like Steve, if you, if, if you canceled on me or something, we had plans, and cancel on me, or something. Steven Evans 38:05 Sure, Jack 38:06 you know that wouldn't bother me, right? In fact, we've set up plans before and canceled them several times. We do that all the time. Yeah, yeah, like that. That doesn't bother me. It's really because one, you tell me, yeah, I don't. Steven Evans 38:20 I would never. Yeah, Jack 38:22 that's that's one thing, but I don't know, I could, but you have it, Steve, right? That's like Steven Evans 38:28 fix, Jack 38:29 like you can, I can tell, and like friends of mine who maybe I wasn't as close with, like seven years ago, part of its fatherhood, and you can really, I think I've seen some of my friends really become, I don't want to say necessarily, actually I will say like better people, essentially just like more selfless, and it's not because they're good dads, which I think they are, but they just I've learned I think to be more respectful and understanding of other people, yeah, that's really where I think it's there are some terrible people out there who are dads, in fact, there are many, many, there are millions and billions of bad people out there who have kids, but you can see people who have it, I can see my friends who maybe didn't have it in a lot of ways, but like now they do. That's something that at some point are you gonna ask me about how fatherhood has changed me, or whatever. I am, I am I right? Were you gonna get the correct point? That's Steven Evans 39:30 the next one. Next one, all Jack 39:32 right, changed me. I don't, I don't know. Made me more controlling in a lot of ways that I, I some I like, some I don't. I've definitely become more stubborn, like really stubborn. If I like, may, if I tell my kids I'm going to do something, you know, if or if they cross a line, and I've already said that there are going to be consequences for doing that, I always follow through. Yeah, no matter, even though it might actually be worse for all. Us like your word is like the most important thing in that situation, because once they think you're not going to follow through, then you've lost your, your authority. Those are those all kind of sound like negative things, but they're, or I've maybe said them in a way that sounds negative. I don't think they necessarily are. In a good way, is I've just, I've brought it into, like, my home life, and, as a, in addition to, like, my professional life, or, you know, my social life, or something. Now it's like at home, and I did have it, you know, when I got married, there's a little bit of that too, but, like, then you're just, like, two young, like, folks who are ambitious or something, living together, and it's fun, and all that, and you can pursue anything you want, if you're going to be home late, like, who cares, you know what I mean? Right now, that now that really means something, if you're going to be out or gone, or you're taking a trip, or something like that, that's going to really impact your family, Steven Evans 40:58 and I mean, what was there anything that, as part of becoming a dad that surprised or maybe even blindsided you, you know, when it comes to that experience or the belief system that you had that didn't really necessarily prepare you for or prepare you to handle, I don't know, Jack 41:17 surprised, surprise, I, you know, this is gonna sound again like not very humble of me, but I really have not been like that surprised by anything Steven Evans 41:30 good. Jack 41:30 Part of that is, is like me and my wife just talk all the time about like our parenting strategy, or how is one of our kids dealing with something? What are we going to do if they, if this issue arises, I read all the baby books, you know. How some skills that helped me that I didn't think would like that I just didn't foresee going back to college and working like the front door at a party or something like that, like people trying to come into your house or whatever. If you're throwing a party, you get a lot of disrespect in that situation, because ultimately you can't let everybody in all the time, or sometimes if someone's like really shit faced, you know, for a number of reasons, you don't want them coming into your home, both for their own safety and for liability reasons, and all that, like, you got to turn people away, and people in that situation don't tend to be reasonable when you're so you get shouted at a lot, that's something like being in the, when you're around a lot of people and engaging a lot of people in, in that sense, or also at my, my job, my job is very confrontational in that way, that definitely prepares you for getting, like, you know, what's the highest decibel level, or whatever, like when you, for like, max volume screaming directly in your face. Yes, Steven Evans 42:42 but Jack 42:43 patience, Steven Evans 42:44 yeah, Jack 42:44 patience. I, that I think is the most important parenting skill. Steven Evans 42:50 Yes, Jack 42:50 and that's something I wouldn't say I'm not like surprised that you need that. Everyone says, oh, it's good to be patient, but what that's actually like in the moment is, but that's like, in the moment, it's a lot harder to be patient in the moment than it is to just talk about being patient. Steven Evans 43:06 Yes, Jack 43:07 and it's not like, let me delay my gratification for something, it's like, let me keep my cool. In fact, Anna was out of town for a few days, and the first day she left, my younger kid woke up and just like, vomited immediately, and that you know she wasn't actually all that sick, or whatever, but explaining to a three-year-old every 30 minutes why you can't give them cheese when they've just vomited a couple of times, like, and having that fight for 12 hours is like that's really gonna test your patience. Steven Evans 43:38 Yes, Jack 43:39 that was a tough one. I'm not going to say I kept my cool that whole time, Steven Evans 43:43 sure, Jack 43:43 but I, yeah, that's been.. I would say that have been like we're skills that I've maybe developed in parts of my life that you wouldn't think would be applicable to being a parent, but have really, really helped out, or at least helped me, Steven Evans 43:59 and like, when it comes to the building, I would say the family values from that sense of identity, you know, from it. How do you, you know, one decide what you're going to imbue, but then you have another person, right, your partner with you, you know, how do you, how did you incorporate that other identity, right, the other entire universe of a person you know, to then let's say you know raise this family together as one. Jack 44:30 Well, my wife and I are very similar people, so in terms of like what we value in a kind of personality or, or even just like life tenets are really not all that different, so that actually was not that difficult. Big picture, how we implement sometimes that's kind of more where there might be tension. I tend to be less risk averse, like in terms of like physical danger, for example. Then my wife or my mother-in-law, who was actually a really big part of my kids' early childhood, like, as like young babies and all that, like they really just great family help. I can't say enough how helpful it's been to have that kind of support from grandparents, but kind of meshing our two value systems wasn't that hard, and we always are willing to choose the hard route, whatever that is, even if it means like the temporary, like that particular moment might be harder. So, actually, a good example of that would be like the iPad in the restaurant, that is something that's something that, not going to say, I've never put on Bluey or something, like I can think of one time I've done that, and it was like, I don't even know if it was absolutely necessary, but if I didn't, it would have been extremely disruptive to whatever was going on, and I don't know, maybe every time I see folks doing that in public, that is their one time where their kid is like about to blow up some sort of like family reunion meal or something, where there's 20 people there, but that's, I think, we both know that that's not the case, and people, as a matter of course, will like give their kids some form of screen distraction in a public place. Steven Evans 46:15 Yes, Jack 46:15 and that's something that I, or we have done our best to avoid, so like the moment of, like, dealing with our kid being annoying in a restaurant is like my kid this morning stacked one of my younger kids stacked like seven or eight little syrup packets on top of each other in a diner or something, and they were spilling everywhere and stuff, and whatever, that's what kids are gonna do, but like they're engaging in that moment and not like zoning out to Bluey or something like that, not that even I think, even with that kid, if we put Bluey in front of her, since she was still, it still wouldn't have the desired effect, and the rest should just not watch it and still do what she'd be doing, but that's like a really small example, it's really always about taking the harder route, I guess, with them, like forcing them to eat the good foods, and not just good being healthy and nutritious foods, not the tasty ones. Steven Evans 47:05 Yeah, Jack 47:06 I don't know. I guess really hasn't been that hard in that way. And when one of us, we have a really, really good understanding of when one person has reached their limit, and it's not even like a tag team or anything like that. It's like just one person will step in more, and the other person will go sit in another room for 1015, minutes, or, or like, say, 'Hey, I'd like to go take a walk, or 'I'd like to go to the gym, or something like that. I'll be back in 45 minutes, like that's really made different. I can feel the difference in that, like that small gift that you give your partner Steven Evans 47:45 big time. But, Jack 47:47 yeah, I mean, value systems - we really, I think, are on the same page, and that's actually made - I think it's made by marriage very strong too. Obviously, like two ambitious people with a lot of like job obligations and stuff, like we feel stretched pretty thin sometimes, but I don't know, I feel like everyone who's got two young kids and hasn't hired a sea of nannies to take care of them might feel that way, Steven Evans 48:13 right? Exactly, I agree, and you're choosing to take on that responsibility yourselves, right, and layering in the tenants that you describe of hard work and showing up, but also making sure that you know the kids are part of that thesis, right, they're part of how do we make sure to include them in our admission, yes, you know, include them as part of, okay, not only are my career aspirations here, but my children and the aspirations I have for their lives are also part of my goals too. Yeah, Jack 48:49 and I think the number one of the biggest kind of emphasis I try and show our kids is like my wife is working so hard right now, she is, she's the breadwinner for a family at the moment, like she is working very hard, she's very ambitious, she's dedicated to her career, and I have two daughters, and I really want them to see that they may decide that they don't want necessarily this same sort of lifestyle, or maybe not, probably not the same industry, or whatever, but they will see their mother like they're essentially their model, like crushing it, ambitious, working, and yet she's still there, you know, she's still there for them, she's there for almost every dinner, you know, if not every day, if she's in the area where she is most the time, she's at dinner, she's doing the bedtimes, she's folding that laundry, you know. I think it's taking its toll, you know, being being the primary earner, and she's working so hard. When I have to work as hard as her, I'm actually pissed. I'm like, one of, why am I doing this, not getting paid anywhere near as much, but I think that. Really, the like that when we say not only just hard work, but that this is something that is expected of you, and not, not daddy's work, you know what I mean, daddy's work, mommies do this, Steven Evans 50:12 right? Right, Jack 50:12 there's that, that's not really in our household at all, Steven Evans 50:16 right, Jack 50:16 which I think that wasn't in my household either. Actually, that's probably why I ended up with my wife, who was always going to be very ambit. My mom was always working full time, as long as I could remember, and that was like my expectation. And I hope that's my kids' expectation as well, that like they should find their own career or ambition or whatever, and pursue that up to the hilt. If they take nothing else away, it's don't be glued to your screen and work really, Steven Evans 50:45 yeah. But I mean, as you have described, right, the home environment is so important, right? And that's why they always say it's like the first five years or six years of life is so important to establishing just the framework of how do you relate to school, how do you relate to trying? How do you relate to focus, right? All those things, right? And it's such a big responsibility. Jack 51:08 Yeah, it is. But I don't know. I mean, I guess it's hard to be the best version of yourself all the time, but if you are a good version of yourself most of the time, around your kids, like, whatever your values are gonna kind of like shine through, yeah, in you just being who you are, I guess, Steven Evans 51:25 right. Jack 51:26 So, it's not like something, it's not like we think, like, oh, we got to show our kids that we're, you got to be hard working, it's just we work hard to show them that that's important, Steven Evans 51:35 correct? Jack 51:35 Right, or keeping a neat place, or like taking care of your environment around you, like let's even just say like picking up trash or something. Hey, you show your kids that you do it and you value it or something, they're going to value it too, as long as you're just like actively being a good version of yourself most of the time. I think I think your kid's probably gonna turn out okay. Steven Evans 51:58 Yeah, I agree, because they're always so observant of even the things that we don't think that they're watching. Yes, I know, which is Jack 52:06 actually the number one thing that's hard. I think I see parents do this all the time with their kids and stuff, is like they're just on their phones around their kids or at the playground, like when I'm at the playground or something like that. I do my absolute best not to, unless I'm checking the time, I'm like not not texting or sending a work email or something like that, like not showing them that you're whipping that out every time you get momentary boredom, correct? You got to be, you got to be okay being bored. I actually think that's something maybe even our generation is lost, is like being okay being bored, Steven Evans 52:36 right? Jack 52:37 Being where you are, even if it's sitting on a sweltering playground, you know, where your kid wants you to push them on the swing for the 5000 time, or something like, Steven Evans 52:47 right? Right, Jack 52:47 like being there and looking at them, or even just like staring up into the sky, or something, is better than whipping out your phone. Steven Evans 52:55 Agree, yeah, the kids, they will remember it. Also, Jack 53:00 it's a, and it's a cumulative thing, right, too. So, it's not like, obviously, if you one day you're just on your phone a little bit too much, but you're generally not, that it's going to be all right, right? Like, you have something's blowing up at work, right then and there, like you got to take a call. Actually, a phone call, I think, is actually less of a problem than just staring at your screen or Instagram, or whatever, like, at least you're talking to somebody, and they're seeing you interact with somebody else, even though it's on a phone. If you're doing that all the time, too, then you're the parent on your phone at the playground, like on the phone call. You just come off like that, like corporate douchebro or something, like, Steven Evans 53:34 right? Yep, you're just like trying, trying to, you know, find balance, but you can't find it, and so you know you're doing, you know, taking calls at the park with your kids, but I, you know, I always wanted to close the episode with this, this question that has been something that I've been thinking about, you know, like looking back across the full arc of your life, if you were not necessarily the version you designed, but the one that you actually lived, you know, what's the thing that turned out to matter the most to you? Maybe not a lesson or advice, but just what your own life has shown you that you perhaps couldn't have seen from the beginning. Jack 54:11 I think choosing the right partner, even though it might not be, you might not be necessarily ready to do that at that point, or maybe you want a little bit more time before, like, I made that choice at, like, 23 years old, essentially, but, like, the importance of recognizing an opportunity, and I would say that is, like, the most important, important, important thing you can have is, like, recognizing the opportunity, and I don't know, when Anna walked in, we met at an internship, when she walked in that room, and like, and we got to talking, and all that. I just was like, this, this is it, like, this, like, I wasn't like, wouldn't say I was like struck by Cupid's arrow or something, but it was really, it was part logic, part like, of course, all that lovey-dovey. Stuff, sure, but like recognizing that, like, when to hang it up and take that opportunity, and that is something I could not have anticipated, even at the time. Like, this is actually one of those unconscious things that I didn't realize I was doing at the time that was really good, was like recognizing something good and staying with it, right? Nothing hasn't, other than all those things I spoke about, like, oh, how did I end up on this career path, or whatever, like inspiration model, modeling from my parents, and then you know, the opportunity, economic opportunity to get into those rooms, or whatever. Yeah, one of those rooms put me in the same room as my wife, Steven Evans 55:41 right, Jack 55:42 and that has.. I couldn't.. that decision right there has impacted my life more than anything else I've done in the last 15 years, and I don't know if that's the same for everybody else, like I don't know, someone might be more in love with their spouse or whatever, like maybe there's more chemistry or something, which, by the way, very, very happy in that regard, but I made that choice, like I made that choice actively, like, oh, this is like this was, I think we're gonna really vibe, but I also knew that it was the smart one, you know? Do you feel, and just as time has gone on, and we've grown our lives together, and all that, like, I don't know, we went out for my birthday a week or two ago, and we just had, like, the best conversation about spirituality, and all that, like, Steven Evans 56:34 cool, Jack 56:34 having that, it just was like we were back in our internship, and discussing something, but that has been the single most that was like she walked in because she would walk to work from very far away and she would actually hopefully she doesn't listen to this but she would like take off her jacket and like kind of like air herself out with her arms up in front of a fan yeah but just like knowing when something's right for you. I now I just got to talking about how I met my wife, and that's really sidetracked me from what your actual question was. This is the Steven Evans 57:13 question, but that Jack 57:14 was it. That was it, like I can, I can see exactly how from that point now, looking back 10 years ago, or more than 10 years ago now, I can see exactly how that choice right there has had the biggest single impact on my life, and that is going to basically decide the rest of my life. At 23 years old, and some cute girl from the better law school walked into, you know, walked into that internship, and we got to talking, and I knew, I knew right there, like I was dating a bunch of people at the time, and called all those people up and cut everything off, and this was it's really just been an amazing ride since then, and I hope if anyone can impart anything from this, because she had Steven Evans 58:01 it too. Jack 58:02 Now we're putting a bow on it, Steven Evans 58:03 of course. Yeah, she Jack 58:04 had it too, recognizing it in others, and that it vibes with your it, like that Steven Evans 58:10 is it. Yep, I fully agree. Well, thank you. Thank you for coming on the show, and for sharing your story, and for sharing with us the truth of my pleasure, man. Thank you, thank you. Bye. has been the missing conversation. I'm Steve Evans. Thanks for listening. If something in there found you, if a moment hit somewhere you weren't expecting, just let it be there for a while. You don't have to sort it out right now. That's what this is for. Take care of yourself out there, and if you know a guy who needs to hear this one, you probably already know who he is. Send it to him.