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Matt: Mark Szymanski, back
for another WP Minute.

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Matt Medeiros,

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it's always a

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Matt: pleasure,

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buddy.

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Matt: I've been calling you my
co host as I go about different

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podcasts and stuff like that.

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I hope you don't mind.

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I'm fine with it.

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I'm excited to be here.

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Matt: I'm not paying you.

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I'm just calling you.

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Yeah.

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We're working on that in the back end.

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We're working

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Matt: on that

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in the back

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Matt: end.

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Uh, we, we already recorded this similar
topic, and as I tell you often, we're

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skating to where the puck is headed,
and the fine folks at WP Product Talk

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actually really took it a step further,
this subject of, uh, is WordPress

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on the decline, looking at stats.

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Uh, this is stuff that Noel talked and,
and, uh, Yoast have been, um, presenting

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and talking about for, for many years,
of course, but of course, over the last

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year, uh, Noel's talk at WordCamp EU,
I believe it was, um, or over this past

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year, not last year, but this past year,
when he did that presentation in Europe,

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that, you know, really, uh, caused
some ripples across the WordPress lake.

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Uh, they did a great job.

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I'll link that up in the show notes.

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I already did a blog post recapping
that, that episode on the WP minute.

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Thanks But Mark and I largely talk
about the same thing, looking at

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Google trends and, and, and asking
ourselves, is WordPress on the decline?

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We're going to talk about it again
for a little bit, but I also want

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to talk about two other things.

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One, I'm going to play this clip
from Josepha from WordCamp US 2023,

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which is almost a year Or probably
today, like a year old, um, from when

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they, they did, uh, State of the Word
last year, or the State of the Word

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update, or whatever the heck they
call it, at the end of WordCamps.

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And, um, we'll play that clip
because I think it's important

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to understand all of this stuff.

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Um, we are always operating in sort of
a lag state where Josefa and Matt and

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maybe other folks in the leadership
council And, Are talking about things

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and making decisions that are impacting
us throughout the rest of the year.

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Let me, let me just play this clip.

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It'll start to make more sense.

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I'm picking up, um, deep into her talk at
the future of WordPress, but here we go.

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You're trying to figure out how
to get involved with WordPress.

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I've got a simple first thing.

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One, use the software.

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So you're already doing
it probably, right?

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That's the easiest way of joining into
the WordPress project to make sure

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that we continue to thrive into the
future because we exist for as long

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as people want to use our software.

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Matt: That little moment right there that
we exist for as long as people want to use

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our software and the rest of this talk,
at least in my opinion, and I also wrote

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a summary about this, this presentation.

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is Josefa was really hitting on the
fact that WordPress needs humans now.

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Like I took that when I listened to
that entire talk, and I know this was

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just a little blip in that radar talk.

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So if you've never heard it
before, listen to the whole thing.

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But what she's encouraging for WordPress
to thrive is for more people to,

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you know, to be excited about it, to
educate, to promote it and to market it.

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Again, it's a call back to what
this, today's episode is about.

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In that moment, one year ago, which was
probably realized a year before that

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talk was created, WordPress is going
to, we're in that plateau right now.

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Like, let's all just come to reality.

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Some people are alarmists and saying
it's, it's gonna, you know, it's the

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bottom is going to fall out that we're
looking at numbers and it is going down,

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but it's not really going down that much.

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I think everyone realized that,
yeah, we're going to hit a plateau.

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We're 20 years in.

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Yeah, we haven't innovated
as fast as we wanted to.

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Um, it's not as sexy
as the next competitor.

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It is kind of old and lethargic.

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But, in order to keep going, we
know we're not going to get those

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features in fast enough to, all of a
sudden, this thing's going to start

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going up and to the right again.

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So, oh, by the way, we need people now.

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Like, WordPress needs people.

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And that was a little, you know,
reflection, in my opinion, of leadership

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saying, we need to start working with
our community a little bit better.

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So as much as we,

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uh, criticize them about maybe the lack
of communication and the lack of working

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with the community, in my opinion, that
talk is what we're seeing now, or help

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bring us to where we are now with Anne
McCarthy, Rich Tabor, even Jamie Marsland

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joining head of WordPress YouTube.

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We're starting to see those
dominoes fall from that talk.

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In my opinion.

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Leadership has said, we
need the humans again.

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Right?

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You're feeling a little bit appreciated.

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You're feeling a lot more appreciated
these days as a content creator.

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You know, a decade after I've
been in this game, where I felt so

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underappreciated it wasn't even funny.

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Um, so I've, I think what we're starting
to see are those, those cards play out.

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Josefa and team realizing a year ago and
probably many months or a year before

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that going, Oh God, we got to make a plan.

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to reconnect with this community
because that's how WordPress is going

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to grow over the next couple of years.

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It's not going to be a Gutenberg
block or a feature that we throw in.

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We gotta get people on
board with the messaging.

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You could argue like I do, 10
years too late, or right on time.

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I don't know, depends on what,
uh, how optimistic you are.

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But that was my opinion.

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I wanted to play that from Josepha because
I look to those talks from Josepha and

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Matt Mullenweg's State of the Words
as the milestones to the year ahead.

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So when you start pounding on
the table, why this, why that?

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Why not them?

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Why not us?

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I like to go back a year ago and say,
look at these milestone presentations

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from leadership and what can you reverse
engineer from that in your moment of time?

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That's, that's how I look at this stuff.

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Your thoughts, meaty subject, but
do you have any thoughts on that?

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Yeah, you made a couple points there.

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Uh, yeah, there was a lot there.

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Um, I mean, with that, with that little
blurb specifically, I would be really

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interested to see if that's actually what
was meant by that, if there was anything

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kind of behind that, or if it's just
kind of like, again, kind of connecting

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dots that may or may not be there.

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Um, but again, I mean, you know, reality
and what's going on, again, I gotta tip

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my hat all the time to Anne McCarthy.

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Rich Tabor, all the people that are
doing interviews, even Matt Mullenweg,

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obviously, doing interviews, like,
Again, I always say this, but, like,

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I'm newer here, right, and I would
say the one really cool thing about

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this whole space of WordPress is just
how seemingly, not all, I wouldn't

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say, like, extremely easily, but how
seemingly accessible everyone is.

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Even like, you know, somebody
like Matt Mullen, right?

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Like, I mean, we could, I know
you've interviewed him, the

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Product Talk interviewed, Product
Talk interviewed him recently.

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I'm sure if I reached out to him,
he would at least consider it.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, you know, it's just, it's really
cool cause you can't do that elsewhere.

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I don't think that you, it's
as easy in other places, so.

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Matt: Can't call up Tim Apple and be
like, Hey man, Tim, get on the phone.

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Yeah, seriously.

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And um, so I think that
that's really cool.

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Really, really awesome.

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At the same time, like, The question that
I would have to you, trying to put the

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puzzle pieces together in my head, would
be, we're talking, if you, if you used

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this last year as like, maybe a signal
that we're trying to get back into like,

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the community and like, at least leverage
more of the great minds in the community

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and like, the input, the opinions and
all that sort of stuff, which, that's

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a deeper conversation, but assuming
that is partially the case, right?

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Partially, the, the, the methodology.

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What do you, what happened when I
wasn't here, so to speak, and when other

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people weren't here, like, beforehand?

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Like, was it really community centric, and
then it fell off because it got really big

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really fast, and then it kind of is coming
back now because we realized we need that?

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You mentioned it in kind of like
the opening monologue, so to speak,

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there, like, what, what, what was the,
the condensed version of all that?

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Did we, Did that kind of get lost at
some point and I want to caveat real

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quick though because this whole sense of
community There is absolutely a WordPress

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community but as you've literally said
before it doesn't actually mean anything

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in in one aspect of You it's open source
software like I told like when we first

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started having these conversation I was
like, why don't they just do this this

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and this or why don't they listen to us?

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And they're like it that's not how
it works So the sense of, I feel

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like there's a lot of language thing.

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I was talking about this on
my live stream yesterday.

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The language in this space
though, is extremely confusing.

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So that's just, that's
kind of where I'm at.

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I know I threw a lot back
at you there, but yeah.

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Matt: Um, Yeah, so for sure, this
is just a little blip on the radar.

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That little snippet, the way that I
digested her presentation was they

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need people for WordPress to thrive.

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Like everyone needs to get on
board in some form or fashion.

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And if you continue that clip from
where I left it off, she starts

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talking about like learning WordPress.

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And, and, uh, and earlier in the
presentation, Also talking about how

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WordPress can literally change lives
and, and I also agree with that because

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it changed my life and it changed
so many other lives that I know from

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either people starting services,
business, product, business, et cetera.

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We're all able to thrive personally
when WordPress is doing well

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and I think that was, that was
her sort of message to everyone.

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What was the community like before this?

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Um, I think we're, we're in that unique,
interesting time where there was never.

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This, this feeling that we have in
WordPress, while some of the arguments

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are the same, um, we, we might be at
a different sort of, uh, velocity,

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or our footprint is a lot bigger.

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So, for example, uh, you know,
when, when folks like KG and, and

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all these other folks, uh, are, you
know, railing against, You know, why

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leadership doesn't pay attention to the
website builders that are out there.

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Why aren't they listening to us?

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We're the ones making a hundred
sites, a thousand sites for clients.

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Like, we're in the weeds
building this thing.

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Make this software better for us.

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This was the same argument that I
had ten years ago with Mullenweg when

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Mullenweg was shipping Jetpack as the
way that WordPress is going to grow.

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Right?

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And I was like, wait a minute, how
is, how, how are you saying Jetpack

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has grown or how, how are you tying
together WordPress's growth because of

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Jetpack, which it was something that
he said at, uh, at a Pressnomics, which

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is what led me to my first interview,
uh, with him talking about that.

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I didn't pull any clips from that
episode, but I will in the future.

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And there's, there's the
same kind of, uh, strife.

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It's just in, in the
It's different sizes now.

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Then it was just Jetpack and now it's
like you're looking at all of WordPress

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going, why haven't you made, you know,
WordPress better for us, uh, instead

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of this little, you know, plugin.

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We've all had, we've had these,
these struggles for a while.

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I think what's interesting now is that
because the software has gotten better

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over the last, let's call it 10 years.

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10 years and the, uh, introduction
of other page building tools.

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name all of them.

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All of them are responsible.

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You know, Beaver Builder, Divi,
Elementor, Bricks, every page builder,

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um, Visual Composer, has brought in a
whole new breed of, of customers and

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users into, or users into WordPress.

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Over the last, let's say, five to
ten years, and now that customer,

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or I keep saying customer, but
now that user is going, Hey, when

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is this thing getting better?

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You know, I got into this game
five, eight, 10 years ago.

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And, um, you know, I was able to
use these plugins, but now I really

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don't see anything changing too
dramatically over this, over the course

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of this five to eight to 10 years.

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Like, why isn't it getting better?

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And we have now a much more,
um, we have more of those folks

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than the previous 10 years.

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Which were just hardcore geeks and
developers who were touching WordPress

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and just having those conversations off
to the side, either literally building

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WordPress or didn't give a shit about,
you know, workflows and easy to use

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software because they were like, man,
I'm cracking open my code editor and

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I'm building these themes and plugins.

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That's what I do.

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I don't care about page builders.

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I mean, I've said this to you
before on the show before back then.

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If you use a page builder, you
are getting that same sort of like

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animosity that maybe Bricks users
give to Elementor people today.

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Right?

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Like when a Bricks user goes, Oh
my God, you're using Elementor.

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Foolish.

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Right?

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Like, I can't believe you still use that.

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I'm on this Bricks thing,
which is way better.

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Back then, If, The biggest crowd,
the biggest audience here were

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developers, still are largely, but
back then it was just pure developers.

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And if you brought a page builder
into the game, you're just, they

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were looking at you going, get
out of here with that thing.

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Now, again, a decade later,
people are like, okay, I guess

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these things are here to stay.

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I mean, we have Gutenberg and now
we have Elementor as a massive

00:13:01.345 --> 00:13:02.545
company in the WordPress space.

00:13:02.775 --> 00:13:04.975
People are like, okay, I guess, yeah,
I guess these things are staying.

00:13:04.975 --> 00:13:09.034
So now there's a group of people,
a lot larger and a lot more vocal.

00:13:09.490 --> 00:13:12.570
You know, than the geeky developer
who just, I don't care about

00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:15.160
anything else, I'm just gonna write
this code and optimize it myself.

00:13:15.620 --> 00:13:20.230
And we have, we're in this,
hitting this crossroads now, um,

00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:21.490
that WordPress has never seen.

00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:25.699
The power user who knows how to use
this stuff and knows how to sell

00:13:25.699 --> 00:13:31.569
it is like, give me better, give me
faster, and give it to me now because

00:13:31.909 --> 00:13:35.820
we're dying out here compared to the
competitors, Webflow, Wix, whatever.

00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.605
Um Which I don't fully buy,
but that's the sentiment.

00:13:39.605 --> 00:13:43.575
Um, and I don't think WordPress
has ever seen this before.

00:13:43.595 --> 00:13:46.495
And that's why it's very
important, I think, for WordPress.

00:13:46.495 --> 00:13:50.464
And this is why you see a concerted effort
from Automatic, whether you agree with

00:13:50.464 --> 00:13:56.665
it or not, um, to really, you know, dig
their heels into, into the community.

00:13:57.365 --> 00:14:00.135
Again, you could say, ten years too late.

00:14:00.515 --> 00:14:03.365
Um, but also, they gotta do it.

00:14:03.710 --> 00:14:05.410
And I'm glad that they're doing it.

00:14:05.420 --> 00:14:09.250
So, we just sort of, I just sort of
keep them at a, at an arm's length

00:14:09.250 --> 00:14:12.160
is kind of a harsh statement, but I
just, okay, let's, what do you want?

00:14:12.580 --> 00:14:13.680
How do you want to do this thing?

00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:17.430
I've been saying it for years, you
know, KG's been saying it for a couple

00:14:17.430 --> 00:14:21.659
years, and it's like, give it to us,
and let's, let's, let's work through

00:14:21.659 --> 00:14:23.010
this and see if we can get there.

00:14:24.330 --> 00:14:27.665
So are you saying that, They've
never really tried to do it like

00:14:27.665 --> 00:14:29.735
this then to your, Oh God, no,

00:14:29.785 --> 00:14:33.494
Matt: this is no, like if you were to
look at, I mean, look at, so we're going

00:14:33.494 --> 00:14:36.225
to talk about the marketing stuff and
again, I'll implore people to go and watch

00:14:36.225 --> 00:14:40.254
the WP product talk, um, presentation
because marketing came up a lot.

00:14:40.275 --> 00:14:42.185
Like how are we going to
make WordPress better?

00:14:42.524 --> 00:14:44.324
Uh, we need, you know, better marketing.

00:14:44.324 --> 00:14:47.485
And does that marketing come
from, from automatic or does it

00:14:47.485 --> 00:14:51.395
come from a consortium of, of
brands, you know, in the space?

00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.570
I have a real life story about, you know,
ad consortiums and brand consortiums

00:14:55.830 --> 00:14:57.140
that are, that is not too good.

00:14:57.470 --> 00:15:03.530
Um, I'll save it for the end here, but,
um, certainly WordPress, or, you have

00:15:03.530 --> 00:15:09.409
to be careful, certainly Automatic has
not reached out to work with content

00:15:09.409 --> 00:15:11.410
creators like this before, right?

00:15:11.890 --> 00:15:14.500
Even though I feel like Anne's
just on her own side quest and it's

00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:20.339
not an official thing, um, it's as
official as it gets, and that's good.

00:15:20.965 --> 00:15:26.545
We saw the failures of the official
WordPress make marketing team, right?

00:15:27.025 --> 00:15:28.085
Couldn't do anything.

00:15:28.454 --> 00:15:32.335
Um, in Ray's post today on the
tavern, excuse me on the repository.

00:15:32.735 --> 00:15:36.505
Uh, she said she, you know, she
quoted some of Yost's pain points

00:15:36.505 --> 00:15:39.845
from when he was the marketing lead
for like nine months or 11 months,

00:15:39.845 --> 00:15:40.915
whatever it was three months.

00:15:40.915 --> 00:15:43.545
I don't know what it was, but he
was like, I can't do anything.

00:15:43.775 --> 00:15:47.374
Like here's, here's a guy who not only
runs the most popular at the time,

00:15:47.565 --> 00:15:49.535
the most popular SEO plugin ever.

00:15:49.930 --> 00:15:53.640
Knows SEO and marketing like the
back of his hand is a prominent

00:15:53.690 --> 00:15:55.550
figurehead in the WordPress community.

00:15:55.650 --> 00:15:58.410
He stepped in and he was
like, Nope, can't do it.

00:15:59.550 --> 00:15:59.809
Right?

00:15:59.809 --> 00:16:04.949
Because he looked at it and goes, any
marketing person who, who knows marketing

00:16:04.950 --> 00:16:09.890
and needs, access to resources cannot
do this job in a volunteer environment.

00:16:10.300 --> 00:16:15.650
So the marketing team has failed and
frozen, not from the end users, not from

00:16:15.650 --> 00:16:18.750
their perspectives, but just from the
fact that they don't have the access,

00:16:18.750 --> 00:16:24.099
the data or the, um, the, the power
to really shape a marketing message

00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:25.680
for open source WordPress, right?

00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:30.190
My biggest arguments against the
Jamie Marsland, um, gig that happened.

00:16:31.520 --> 00:16:33.270
So very difficult.

00:16:33.889 --> 00:16:35.349
You have media core.

00:16:35.430 --> 00:16:38.660
Um, also head of, headed
by an automatic lead.

00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:43.560
I think Reyes is doing a phenomenal
job, uh, but it's still an automatic

00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:49.030
lead doing a media core, trying to
build out a media core experiment.

00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:52.650
I think it's going fairly good in
the, in the first couple of months.

00:16:52.930 --> 00:16:59.610
It is exactly what I had expected it to be
a more professional, organized way to say,

00:16:59.610 --> 00:17:01.630
here's the things coming out of WordPress.

00:17:01.640 --> 00:17:03.420
Do you all want to cover this content?

00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:05.109
Cool.

00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:05.760
Thumbs up.

00:17:06.060 --> 00:17:10.000
I think it's good, but we all have
to remember this is an automatic is

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:14.190
the one leading the charge of, of
what's happening out of that group.

00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:19.979
And us as media guys and gals
choose to cover it or not, right?

00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:20.989
It's up to us.

00:17:21.509 --> 00:17:24.270
And then you have the tavern,
which is owned by Audrey

00:17:24.270 --> 00:17:26.319
Capital, uh, Matt's company.

00:17:26.730 --> 00:17:32.230
So you have a lot of these places that are
going to help market and push WordPress.

00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:36.095
Yes, but also, Controlled by
automatic at the same time.

00:17:36.485 --> 00:17:40.915
And you take that with your grain of
salt, however, however big that is.

00:17:40.925 --> 00:17:45.794
But that's a long way of getting to no
automatic has never really pushed into

00:17:45.794 --> 00:17:51.204
the creator space for messaging like
this always have supported community,

00:17:51.494 --> 00:17:57.135
but more so on like the, Hey, help us
build WordPress thing, not the help us

00:17:57.135 --> 00:17:59.325
get this message out about WordPress.

00:18:00.375 --> 00:18:01.745
Do you think there's a reason for that?

00:18:01.765 --> 00:18:03.335
Do you think like they were just.

00:18:04.685 --> 00:18:07.655
for lack of a better way to explain
it, just like busy before and just

00:18:07.655 --> 00:18:09.325
didn't think that it was necessary.

00:18:09.835 --> 00:18:14.265
And now they see, now they see all
the, like the, you know, the sharks in

00:18:14.265 --> 00:18:17.435
the water, so to speak again, it's a
little bit hyperbolic, but like they

00:18:17.435 --> 00:18:21.574
see like other, they see like how big
of a deal influencer marketing, so to

00:18:21.574 --> 00:18:24.205
speak, is in creator based marketing.

00:18:24.455 --> 00:18:27.575
And now we're like, Hmm, you know, we
should probably consider you actually,

00:18:27.595 --> 00:18:32.250
do you think that that's, The problem
that I have with these conversations is

00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:33.500
they're all, they're all really good.

00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:35.760
But like we talked about off camera,
like you don't want to create like

00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:39.800
just an echo chamber of just like
random speculation and random ideas.

00:18:40.270 --> 00:18:44.659
So like, I just feel like I need to do
a better job of this, but like, I feel

00:18:44.659 --> 00:18:49.320
like there's, we have the access to the
people that I assume are taking action.

00:18:49.330 --> 00:18:53.340
Like, you know, there's definitely rooms
that people are making decisions in.

00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:56.470
And like those ideas are, you
know, potentially flowing down,

00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:58.940
but obviously we have, we have the
other situations like we, like we

00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:01.370
talked to Ann and that's fantastic.

00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:03.220
The, uh, YouTuber program is fantastic.

00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:04.900
Apparently that's not
like a top down thing.

00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:07.520
That's more of just like, again, like
you said, kind of a side quest and cool.

00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:10.609
That's awesome that that freedom
exists, but I feel like in some of the

00:19:10.609 --> 00:19:14.490
bigger things, the bigger messaging
pieces, the bigger, the bigger plays.

00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:17.890
Automatic is a, is a for
profit corporation, right?

00:19:18.210 --> 00:19:20.600
And they, and WordPress is
a big part of what they do.

00:19:21.835 --> 00:19:22.514
com and all that.

00:19:22.785 --> 00:19:26.465
So like, I feel like these things that
we're talking about, they have answers.

00:19:26.475 --> 00:19:29.285
So like somebody, somebody has
answers to this, you know what I mean?

00:19:29.565 --> 00:19:33.594
So I feel like that's, that's part
of the thing that, um, you know, when

00:19:33.595 --> 00:19:38.035
I ask these types of questions, it's
like, how did these things come to be?

00:19:38.885 --> 00:19:42.095
And we're just kind of like putting
the, you know, trying to put the dots,

00:19:42.135 --> 00:19:43.975
you know, connect the dots sometimes.

00:19:44.135 --> 00:19:44.365
Yeah.

00:19:44.365 --> 00:19:45.665
It's a little, it's a little tough.

00:19:45.745 --> 00:19:48.145
Um, I don't know.

00:19:48.155 --> 00:19:49.535
I don't exactly know where
I was going with that.

00:19:49.605 --> 00:19:50.734
Yeah, no, I

00:19:50.735 --> 00:19:51.265
Matt: get what you're saying.

00:19:51.625 --> 00:19:52.915
Like, why do you think this is happening?

00:19:52.915 --> 00:19:55.545
Well, again, I'll just
go back to what I said.

00:19:55.545 --> 00:19:59.895
I think it's because they've realized
that There is a, we are hitting a plateau.

00:19:59.895 --> 00:20:03.534
So again, if you, the WP product
talk presentation, old talk and,

00:20:03.575 --> 00:20:07.875
and Yost, um, talk about their
numbers and on either the, the slight

00:20:07.875 --> 00:20:12.754
decline, um, in installs, the numbers
can be measured in different ways.

00:20:12.764 --> 00:20:15.685
So obviously check out that episode
if you want to see how it, how it

00:20:15.685 --> 00:20:17.154
all came, you know, it came together.

00:20:17.474 --> 00:20:21.715
There's nothing that is, we're not
watching WordPress crashing, right?

00:20:21.725 --> 00:20:22.495
So there's that.

00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:24.240
So let's, let's hold on a second.

00:20:24.250 --> 00:20:25.679
We're not, we're not crashing here.

00:20:26.040 --> 00:20:28.389
But I think they've realized that,
yeah, we're gonna hit a plateau.

00:20:28.429 --> 00:20:31.899
I mean, how, at some point, like,
you're not gonna keep having

00:20:31.899 --> 00:20:33.970
that velocity of growth, right?

00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:37.520
Because, um, you know, technology's
gonna get better faster and competitors

00:20:37.520 --> 00:20:40.339
are gonna come into the market like
they have and it's gonna just slow down

00:20:40.339 --> 00:20:45.290
the way that WordPress, um, uh, um,
continues to grab that market share.

00:20:45.540 --> 00:20:48.360
So I think that the reason is, is
yeah, they've identified that we're

00:20:48.370 --> 00:20:49.870
going to be hitting a plateau season.

00:20:50.390 --> 00:20:52.420
For whatever, however long
that is, a couple of years.

00:20:52.880 --> 00:21:01.450
Um, and now it's time to look outward
from just like the, the folks who build

00:21:01.450 --> 00:21:05.029
and write lines of code for WordPress,
to the folks who are marketing and,

00:21:05.140 --> 00:21:09.840
and possibly implementing, um, you
know, WordPress for, for their clients.

00:21:10.810 --> 00:21:15.605
And I totally agree with you, um,
You know, it would be great to

00:21:15.605 --> 00:21:20.655
get people with direct answers
on the line and, and ask them.

00:21:21.155 --> 00:21:25.875
I do think, uh, that 90 percent of
this, all roads lead back to Matt.

00:21:26.345 --> 00:21:29.565
And, um, to have Matt on every
call would be near impossible.

00:21:30.024 --> 00:21:35.795
Um, so I can only operate off of
these, like, key presentations.

00:21:35.845 --> 00:21:37.275
Especially from Josepha, right?

00:21:37.275 --> 00:21:38.455
Executive Director of WordPress.

00:21:38.715 --> 00:21:40.105
So I, I have to look at.

00:21:40.490 --> 00:21:43.220
These presentations as this is
what you're telling us, right?

00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:44.060
This is your update.

00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:49.550
Um, One of the benefits to the
media core is that Josefa will

00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.830
be in the media, the next media
core meeting for us media folks.

00:21:55.460 --> 00:22:01.140
Um, which is fantastic because now
this could help bridge that gap of,

00:22:01.170 --> 00:22:03.790
look, we need to talk to people,
we need to ask these questions.

00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.625
Um, so, um, done in a professional manner.

00:22:08.655 --> 00:22:09.905
You know, with that caveat.

00:22:09.955 --> 00:22:12.655
Because a lot of people in, you
know, especially in the Twitter

00:22:12.655 --> 00:22:15.305
sphere is just like, well, ask
them why we don't have this block.

00:22:15.915 --> 00:22:18.705
You know, or why can't I drag
this over there and import that?

00:22:18.705 --> 00:22:21.015
It's like, well, that's
not, this is not for that.

00:22:21.325 --> 00:22:24.395
This is for the, you know, the
health of overall WordPress and

00:22:24.395 --> 00:22:25.675
where this whole thing is going.

00:22:25.925 --> 00:22:28.605
You know, you can take your
feature concerns at another time.

00:22:30.065 --> 00:22:32.575
So yeah, maybe these efforts
will help us get there.

00:22:32.775 --> 00:22:36.145
I wanted to, to play this
clip before we started talking

00:22:36.145 --> 00:22:37.295
about the marketing side of it.

00:22:37.625 --> 00:22:42.284
Um, because I think it sets the tone
of, of what we're all feeling right now.

00:22:42.915 --> 00:22:45.014
That's the way that I
perceive this, this talk.

00:22:45.015 --> 00:22:46.135
I've watched it a couple of times.

00:22:46.614 --> 00:22:49.065
Um, yeah, August 31st, 2023.

00:22:49.065 --> 00:22:54.165
So literally one year old tomorrow
is when she gave this presentation.

00:22:54.215 --> 00:22:55.645
So I think we're right on track.

00:22:55.655 --> 00:22:58.020
And if you continue listening to
this, To this, she starts talking

00:22:58.020 --> 00:22:59.620
about the, like, the learn efforts.

00:22:59.990 --> 00:23:04.120
And we just saw, what, a couple
weeks ago, the, the redesign of, of

00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:07.129
the learn site and the efforts that
they're putting into the learn site.

00:23:07.129 --> 00:23:12.469
So, this is exactly the proof in, in my
pudding is to hear her talk about this

00:23:12.469 --> 00:23:16.430
stuff and literally see it, you know,
six months, or actually eight months in

00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:20.480
the future, finally coming, what am I
saying, eight months, a year, a year into

00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:23.040
the future, finally the, the learn site.

00:23:23.895 --> 00:23:26.705
has improved, which is one of
the things that she talked about.

00:23:26.705 --> 00:23:30.085
Like we have to get learning better
and easier and more accessible.

00:23:30.175 --> 00:23:33.835
So I look to these moments, the
Matt Mullenweg state of the words,

00:23:33.835 --> 00:23:36.745
and whenever she does her, um, I
don't know what they're called, but

00:23:36.745 --> 00:23:39.375
her capstone events at WordCamp US.

00:23:40.004 --> 00:23:43.255
Um, I look at those as, you
know, that's, that's the signal.

00:23:43.255 --> 00:23:44.075
That's the direction.

00:23:44.345 --> 00:23:47.595
Um, I'd love to have them on
every call, but I, I just have to

00:23:47.825 --> 00:23:48.845
use what I have in front of me.

00:23:49.194 --> 00:23:49.714
Certainly.

00:23:49.775 --> 00:23:52.275
Um, what is, so to kind of.

00:23:53.445 --> 00:23:56.715
Summarize this, obviously,
from your perspective.

00:23:57.745 --> 00:24:00.075
And I know, I'm sure we've talked about
this, but I don't know if it's been, I've

00:24:00.075 --> 00:24:01.914
been, I've directly asked it like this.

00:24:02.184 --> 00:24:07.325
What is your, in August, late August
of 2024, based on everything that, you

00:24:07.325 --> 00:24:14.255
know, we've seen here, what is your
current perspective on, like, the, I

00:24:14.255 --> 00:24:16.725
don't wanna, there's probably multiple
ways to say it, but like, the health

00:24:16.725 --> 00:24:20.915
of WordPress, the, uh, Wordpress.

00:24:20.915 --> 00:24:25.345
org, like the open source software, the
health of it, the current position of it,

00:24:25.805 --> 00:24:30.385
and more so than the current position,
like, where do you see it, where do

00:24:30.385 --> 00:24:35.094
you see it, like, in the past three
years versus the next three years, or

00:24:35.094 --> 00:24:36.114
something like that, you know what I mean?

00:24:36.115 --> 00:24:38.395
Like, what's your, what's
your gauge on this now?

00:24:38.775 --> 00:24:41.305
Because I feel like even since
we've started talking, it's,

00:24:41.325 --> 00:24:43.245
it's possibly changed slightly.

00:24:44.100 --> 00:24:47.300
Not heavily, but I feel like more,
more conversations have been had.

00:24:47.300 --> 00:24:48.210
More, more things have been said.

00:24:48.210 --> 00:24:49.100
Yeah, yeah.

00:24:49.250 --> 00:24:50.410
So, where are you at right now?

00:24:51.140 --> 00:24:54.850
Matt: I'm much more optimistic
on the software side of things.

00:24:55.730 --> 00:24:57.730
And I guess, and the
community side of things.

00:24:59.900 --> 00:25:00.739
Not, yeah, not I guess.

00:25:00.750 --> 00:25:01.150
It is.

00:25:01.379 --> 00:25:05.200
I'm much more, I'm much more
optimistic on both the software and the

00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.700
community than I was three years ago.

00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:08.920
Yeah.

00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:13.220
Three years ago, I was like, Oh
boy, like there was, you know,

00:25:13.430 --> 00:25:19.790
but, but also like the economics,
uh, the economy, sorry, was also.

00:25:20.390 --> 00:25:23.190
Weird for agencies like a lot
of agencies three years ago.

00:25:23.190 --> 00:25:24.560
We're like, what are we like?

00:25:24.580 --> 00:25:25.320
What's happening?

00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:28.780
We really got to tighten
this belt now during kovat.

00:25:28.789 --> 00:25:30.490
Everybody was like I'm printing money.

00:25:30.510 --> 00:25:31.579
Yeah, and this is amazing

00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:32.530
example Yeah, right,

00:25:33.169 --> 00:25:36.479
Matt: you know But coming out of that
people like where the hell did that all go

00:25:36.499 --> 00:25:40.775
and and no I think it was no that brought
this up in the In the presentation, but

00:25:40.785 --> 00:25:44.215
you know, when you look at the swings
in the economy, a lot of people, this

00:25:44.215 --> 00:25:48.005
is why I always say, like, this is
why WordPress is strongest advantage.

00:25:48.005 --> 00:25:51.304
I know it's easy to throw out that
strong advantage of, oh, it's just open

00:25:51.304 --> 00:25:57.429
source, but in a top down approach,
there are massive organizations that,

00:25:57.429 --> 00:26:04.355
uh, Go, uh, yeah, we're done paying
Adobe for their CMS 10 million a

00:26:04.355 --> 00:26:08.865
year in licensing, and we're going to
shift over to an open source model.

00:26:08.915 --> 00:26:11.304
And that's, that's an
investment for a long term.

00:26:11.304 --> 00:26:16.034
So when you can, when that glacier
moves over of some massive organization

00:26:16.035 --> 00:26:21.665
that says, okay, now we're gonna, we're
gonna skip this Microsoft SharePoint

00:26:21.665 --> 00:26:27.015
or Adobe CMS, I forget what theirs is
called, um, and, and, and, and, and,

00:26:27.015 --> 00:26:32.145
um, Oracles stuff, like whatever big
corporate entity that they're paying

00:26:32.225 --> 00:26:35.435
millions and millions of dollars for,
never mind the salaries and support

00:26:35.435 --> 00:26:36.684
licenses that they have to pay for.

00:26:37.365 --> 00:26:40.524
And they invest in a WordPress,
or any open source, but

00:26:40.524 --> 00:26:41.595
they invest in a WordPress.

00:26:41.625 --> 00:26:43.704
That's not just, they're not
going to change out of that

00:26:43.714 --> 00:26:45.494
decision a year from now.

00:26:45.494 --> 00:26:46.985
They go, okay, well WordPress didn't work.

00:26:47.875 --> 00:26:50.055
No, no, like those organizations
don't move that way.

00:26:50.055 --> 00:26:51.895
So if you can get somebody in like that.

00:26:51.975 --> 00:26:55.175
That, that's an investment in, in
WordPress open source, open source

00:26:55.175 --> 00:26:59.334
WordPress for five to ten years because
that's just how those corporations

00:26:59.334 --> 00:27:02.385
move and they're investing so much
time and money into these things.

00:27:02.395 --> 00:27:06.444
So economies, the economy can
play a big role in adoption.

00:27:06.564 --> 00:27:10.975
Um, it's easy to say WordPress is free,
um, and while it's not free at that

00:27:10.985 --> 00:27:18.974
scale, it is magnitudes less expensive
than a Microsoft SharePoint and an Adobe.

00:27:18.974 --> 00:27:19.245
So.

00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:23.080
All of that is to say is, I
think we're in a better place.

00:27:23.560 --> 00:27:25.770
Uh, three years, I feel it.

00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:32.739
Um, with all the noise that I hear,
I don't see anyone actually leaving.

00:27:33.470 --> 00:27:35.959
When Gutenberg launched,
I saw people leaving.

00:27:36.590 --> 00:27:36.889
Right?

00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:39.639
Like a year into it,
people are like, I'm out.

00:27:39.870 --> 00:27:44.150
Like, that's when I saw other people
looking at other no code solutions,

00:27:44.159 --> 00:27:48.100
Statimic, people, you know, developers
that were building plugins for

00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:49.320
WordPress, going, you know what?

00:27:49.760 --> 00:27:52.379
I don't even want to sell
plugins anymore for this space.

00:27:52.969 --> 00:27:54.850
I want to go just go
after this other stuff.

00:27:54.889 --> 00:27:56.340
And I saw people leaving.

00:27:56.800 --> 00:27:58.230
I don't see people leaving here.

00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:00.810
So, yes.

00:28:00.810 --> 00:28:01.369
I, I agree.

00:28:01.820 --> 00:28:03.310
I don't see too many
people leaving either.

00:28:03.310 --> 00:28:06.699
I mean, I'm not, I don't have my
finger on the pulse of the data,

00:28:06.879 --> 00:28:09.959
which as a side note, it would be
amazing if we get even better data.

00:28:10.049 --> 00:28:11.209
I know wordpress.

00:28:11.209 --> 00:28:13.909
org or automatic or somebody
has like decent data.

00:28:13.909 --> 00:28:15.689
We've, we've potentially looked at before.

00:28:15.689 --> 00:28:17.839
I've seen it on other
stuff and things like that.

00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:21.840
Maybe it was the YouTuber call or
whatever, but, um, That would be amazing

00:28:21.840 --> 00:28:24.850
if we could like do more surveys or
something to get like a broader mass.

00:28:24.870 --> 00:28:28.389
I know we're just dealing with a
ton of, uh, information though.

00:28:28.389 --> 00:28:32.280
So that's tough, but, um,
What was I going to say?

00:28:32.330 --> 00:28:36.060
The thing that you're saying, though,
is I know we're not pulling up the

00:28:36.060 --> 00:28:38.760
charts like we did in our I'm building

00:28:38.760 --> 00:28:41.179
Matt: one right now so
we can pull it up because

00:28:41.179 --> 00:28:41.239
I

00:28:41.239 --> 00:28:42.049
Matt: knew you were going to go there.

00:28:42.510 --> 00:28:48.189
But like, that's what I'm, what I'm
kind of thinking is, you know, if

00:28:48.189 --> 00:28:50.490
you look at the last three years, the
next three years, obviously you can't

00:28:50.490 --> 00:28:54.810
predict the future, but like, even the
trends over the last, if you extrapolate

00:28:54.820 --> 00:29:00.870
back like five or ten years, if you go
back, those There's charts we looked

00:29:00.870 --> 00:29:05.209
at, like comparatively, just like
Google Trends to the other platforms.

00:29:05.949 --> 00:29:09.110
It makes sense that WordPress is kind
of plateauing because there's more

00:29:09.110 --> 00:29:10.479
options now and things like that.

00:29:10.510 --> 00:29:15.429
But to, to, there's a, I feel like there's
a subtle conversation nuance to be had

00:29:15.439 --> 00:29:18.649
where, yeah, I don't see a lot of people
leaving WordPress, but I don't actually

00:29:18.649 --> 00:29:20.110
even hear that argument that much.

00:29:20.129 --> 00:29:22.530
I hear people not coming to WordPress.

00:29:23.110 --> 00:29:27.879
Because the other stuff's either
easier, easier to get into, or

00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:29.460
is just like marketed better.

00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.930
Like, I feel like, I don't, I
personally, from what I've seen, I

00:29:33.939 --> 00:29:36.200
don't think there's a exodus problem.

00:29:36.729 --> 00:29:42.280
I think there's a, what's the word,
um, awareness or, there's a better

00:29:42.280 --> 00:29:44.080
word for it, um, escaping me right now.

00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:48.469
But like a, not even a searchability,
just like a, you know, um, I don't

00:29:48.469 --> 00:29:52.179
know, it'll come to me, but like
finding it, like almost finding

00:29:52.179 --> 00:29:56.389
WordPress and realizing that it is
ultimately one of the best solutions.

00:29:56.855 --> 00:30:01.205
Um, you know, I did like though, I'll say
this and I'll let you go over the chart.

00:30:01.495 --> 00:30:07.255
Um, Mark's live stream, I don't know when
this is going out, but like, um, pronounce

00:30:07.255 --> 00:30:09.085
his last name for me that you just did.

00:30:09.715 --> 00:30:10.415
Matt: Oh, Benzikin.

00:30:10.895 --> 00:30:11.175
Yeah.

00:30:11.485 --> 00:30:15.484
Mark Benzikin's, uh, presentation, there
was a specific line and the whole thing

00:30:15.485 --> 00:30:19.070
was great, but the specific line in
there where it was like, Don't like like

00:30:19.070 --> 00:30:22.180
realize that there are competitors and
they might be better for certain things

00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.840
like I do actually like that approach
I mean, I personally probably would use

00:30:25.840 --> 00:30:29.060
WordPress for 99 percent of the things
but if something comes out that WordPress

00:30:29.110 --> 00:30:33.630
isn't Specific for or like you really
need like an easy super duper easy like

00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:36.600
e commerce thing for certainly there's
WooCommerce There's SureCart, but like

00:30:36.600 --> 00:30:39.840
in some cases maybe Shopify is the
thing we got to be honest with ourselves

00:30:39.840 --> 00:30:42.580
as far as like Actual requirements
because every project is different.

00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:45.250
So my point though in saying,
but I think a lot of times

00:30:45.250 --> 00:30:46.640
WordPress could be the answer.

00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:49.110
And I think a lot of times people
aren't getting to that step.

00:30:49.450 --> 00:30:52.390
So I think that's really where
potentially hopefully automatic is

00:30:52.390 --> 00:30:55.870
understanding that piece because I
don't, I don't see an exodus problem.

00:30:55.900 --> 00:30:59.674
I see like a, you know, an entrance
problem, you know, like getting into it.

00:31:00.055 --> 00:31:00.335
Matt: Yeah.

00:31:01.105 --> 00:31:01.445
Yeah.

00:31:01.605 --> 00:31:04.675
And hold that thought for the, for like
the marketing stuff, but when we, we

00:31:04.675 --> 00:31:08.305
look at the, so for those watching, we
have the Google trends and, and I think

00:31:08.305 --> 00:31:12.125
Noel brought this up too, that I think
his data or at least one of those slides

00:31:12.125 --> 00:31:18.205
was based off of this and it's just the
keyword of WordPress, which, I mean, it's

00:31:18.225 --> 00:31:23.955
telling, but it's not like that means
that WordPress is interesting, uh, or,

00:31:23.975 --> 00:31:28.545
or that somebody was actually searching
for, give me a WordPress website.

00:31:28.545 --> 00:31:28.595
Right.

00:31:28.885 --> 00:31:31.975
Um, and same goes for all this other
stuff, like WordPress, Webflow, Wix, we're

00:31:31.975 --> 00:31:34.365
just, this is just a search term trend.

00:31:34.915 --> 00:31:40.135
Um, you know, from a, from a 50, 000
foot view, you could say that it's, it's

00:31:40.155 --> 00:31:43.915
popularity, but it doesn't necessarily
mean that this leads to a WordPress

00:31:43.915 --> 00:31:45.835
install, a Webflow install, a Wix install.

00:31:46.510 --> 00:31:50.120
The problem real quick the problem
with this this experiment that you

00:31:50.120 --> 00:31:52.740
know I ran the other day I told you
about and then we did think and we're

00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:56.150
doing here The problem is that when
you think of a web flow website?

00:31:56.180 --> 00:31:59.170
There is I'm gonna say there's
basically nothing else that you're

00:31:59.170 --> 00:32:03.080
gonna search in order to find web
flow or Wix with WordPress It may be

00:32:03.080 --> 00:32:07.125
interesting to add like an element
or Or like a Divi to the comparison.

00:32:07.155 --> 00:32:10.635
And then you'd have to somehow do like a
complicated math equation to try to figure

00:32:10.635 --> 00:32:14.315
out like, Oh, we got to take like at
least a percentage of this into account.

00:32:14.545 --> 00:32:18.095
So I'm not saying again, like this
isn't like fully telling either, but it

00:32:18.095 --> 00:32:22.325
would be interesting to just see, like,
to kind of start some of that data.

00:32:22.345 --> 00:32:25.285
And again, Elementor is pretty low, but
it's, it's incredible that Elementor

00:32:25.325 --> 00:32:27.535
alone, right, is the same as Webflow.

00:32:27.885 --> 00:32:28.105
Yeah.

00:32:28.145 --> 00:32:28.975
According to these.

00:32:29.405 --> 00:32:29.655
Matt: Yeah.

00:32:30.115 --> 00:32:30.475
So,

00:32:30.545 --> 00:32:32.045
Matt: uh, and Wix just destroys it.

00:32:32.045 --> 00:32:32.235
Right.

00:32:32.235 --> 00:32:34.275
So if you go, then if you go square space.

00:32:36.340 --> 00:32:37.190
Well, actually, you know what you can do?

00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:39.430
You can do visual composer.

00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:42.830
That's a big one.

00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:44.750
Matt: Yeah, but it's not even on there.

00:32:45.470 --> 00:32:47.970
I think the problem with visual
composer is it's just in a theme

00:32:47.970 --> 00:32:49.330
and most people don't even know.

00:32:49.820 --> 00:32:51.500
Uh, let's go square space.

00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:55.960
Like, I'd be interested in
like Divi and Beaver Builder,

00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.370
but I still think Elementor is
probably going to be the biggest.

00:32:59.540 --> 00:32:59.750
Yeah.

00:32:59.750 --> 00:33:03.760
In this, this, uh, Oh, wow.

00:33:03.760 --> 00:33:04.009
Okay.

00:33:04.010 --> 00:33:04.290
Okay.

00:33:05.340 --> 00:33:05.870
And if we take,

00:33:06.410 --> 00:33:08.700
Matt: if we take these out, so if you're
just, if you're just listening, you're

00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:11.070
not seeing us, uh, modify these charts.

00:33:11.600 --> 00:33:18.630
Uh, let me just remove Wix and Squarespace
so we can just see this battle.

00:33:20.580 --> 00:33:20.980
Wow.

00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:25.610
So this is, this right here is a really
interesting chart actually, because

00:33:25.610 --> 00:33:29.600
this, you know, we're seeing here
on the screen for you listeners, if

00:33:29.600 --> 00:33:35.115
we're just podcasting here is Webflow
Search term comparisons in Google,

00:33:35.375 --> 00:33:40.465
Google trending and pretty much all
similar, especially more recently.

00:33:40.885 --> 00:33:44.095
But that's like, those are two
WordPress page voters versus like

00:33:44.095 --> 00:33:45.715
a whole platform and Webflow.

00:33:46.415 --> 00:33:49.665
So again, I said this the
other day I was live streaming.

00:33:49.665 --> 00:33:52.215
I was like Webflow is like the
second thing out of WordPress

00:33:52.225 --> 00:33:53.695
people's mouth, which is fine.

00:33:53.705 --> 00:33:54.205
Like that's whatever.

00:33:54.205 --> 00:33:57.535
But I just find it so interesting cause
like it's the, it's the smallest one.

00:33:57.535 --> 00:33:59.585
Like they must just be hammering.

00:34:00.885 --> 00:34:04.835
along the lines of the same people that
would like be like WordPress tinkerers

00:34:04.875 --> 00:34:07.655
and like kind of agency type owners.

00:34:07.965 --> 00:34:12.435
I guess, I guess like Webflow is
just not really for DIY or at all.

00:34:12.485 --> 00:34:14.595
Like they probably haven't
like gone that route too much.

00:34:15.065 --> 00:34:16.797
Matt: Yeah, definitely not.

00:34:16.797 --> 00:34:19.102
Definitely not.

00:34:19.102 --> 00:34:20.465
Um, Yeah.

00:34:20.465 --> 00:34:21.555
So, I mean, I, I think,

00:34:23.950 --> 00:34:27.140
You know, when you look at, uh, so
this is just a five year chart, right?

00:34:27.140 --> 00:34:31.900
When, I think when we had pre recorded
this and, uh, or previously recorded

00:34:31.900 --> 00:34:34.950
this, we were looking at like a ten
year chart or something like that,

00:34:34.970 --> 00:34:37.480
and WordPress was just massive, right?

00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:38.150
And dominant.

00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:43.640
And it was literally following, You
know, my argument to the first 10 years

00:34:43.640 --> 00:34:48.170
of WordPress was, man, it was the only
thing that was out there that people

00:34:48.170 --> 00:34:49.340
were able to build websites with.

00:34:50.040 --> 00:34:53.640
Uh, you know, of course, launched blogs,
which were very popular back then.

00:34:53.650 --> 00:34:55.830
It was the social media
before social media.

00:34:56.240 --> 00:34:58.840
And people were just like,
yeah, give me this thing.

00:34:58.840 --> 00:34:59.420
I need it.

00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:00.260
This is technology.

00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:00.930
This is the internet.

00:35:00.930 --> 00:35:01.930
I'm connecting with people.

00:35:01.940 --> 00:35:02.520
Give it to me.

00:35:02.860 --> 00:35:05.800
And then when you cross that 10 year
path, where you started to see the

00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:09.075
rise of Wix, Squarespace, Webflow,
all these other things, Shopify

00:35:09.155 --> 00:35:10.725
more so than Webflow, of course.

00:35:11.755 --> 00:35:15.805
That was an indication of, yeah, 10
years in consumer internet has matured

00:35:16.055 --> 00:35:21.645
and a lot more competition prices went
down for technology, servers, storage,

00:35:21.705 --> 00:35:25.705
bandwidth, you know, back then everything
else was way more expensive to operate.

00:35:26.005 --> 00:35:32.315
And then just an increase in competition
and softwares that came out, um, and

00:35:32.315 --> 00:35:36.555
WordPress had to battle that none
of these other, like all these other

00:35:36.555 --> 00:35:42.750
platforms Had the luxury of like, looking
at, um, you know, the, the past decade

00:35:42.750 --> 00:35:43.910
of WordPress and, and building on it.

00:35:43.910 --> 00:35:45.110
I make this case all the time.

00:35:45.110 --> 00:35:48.370
It's like, you know, if you're a new
form builder, I work for gravity forms,

00:35:48.370 --> 00:35:51.640
and you're a new form builder, you come
into the space and you get to build your

00:35:51.640 --> 00:35:57.990
form, build, build a, build a plugin
based off of like, The last 14 years at

00:35:57.990 --> 00:35:59.770
Gravity Forms has been in business, right?

00:35:59.790 --> 00:36:04.010
And you don't have to, you don't have
to worry about all of the backwards

00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:05.300
compatibility and all this stuff.

00:36:05.530 --> 00:36:06.630
WordPress, same thing.

00:36:06.630 --> 00:36:08.530
These platforms come out, they
can look at WordPress and be

00:36:08.530 --> 00:36:09.660
like, Well, we ain't doing that.

00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:13.670
And be a hosted solution because we're
not giving it to every individual to

00:36:13.670 --> 00:36:15.070
download and do whatever they want with.

00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:19.860
Which is something that I think is, you
know, vastly overlooked in this, this,

00:36:20.150 --> 00:36:22.620
this desire for WordPress to be better.

00:36:23.100 --> 00:36:28.200
Is that you can still take this thing
off the shelf, put it onto your computer,

00:36:28.390 --> 00:36:32.590
and break it apart, and look at it, and
do things, and it doesn't even have to

00:36:32.590 --> 00:36:37.990
be, um, you know, a, a, a, building a
website, you could just take it apart,

00:36:37.990 --> 00:36:42.000
and learn and understand code from it,
and move on with your life, like these

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:46.800
are things that, you know, You know,
you see people speed running video games

00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:50.780
with like, uh, you know, an old like
Atari stick and you're like, wait, that's

00:36:50.780 --> 00:36:52.390
not even supposed to be using that.

00:36:52.390 --> 00:36:53.180
Well, guess what?

00:36:53.200 --> 00:36:53.890
I'm a human.

00:36:54.110 --> 00:36:57.820
I can do these crazy, wild things to
prove, you know, to prove my point.

00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:02.830
Um, WordPress has this flexibility and
this opportunity that are unmatched

00:37:02.910 --> 00:37:04.680
across the board, you know, in my opinion.

00:37:05.600 --> 00:37:09.160
Well, I don't know if anybody in,
uh, I don't know if anybody that

00:37:09.170 --> 00:37:11.500
actually knows anything about
WordPress would argue with that,

00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:12.110
na: that

00:37:12.350 --> 00:37:13.060
last point there.

00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:15.450
I mean, obviously it has an
incredible flexibility, robustness,

00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.720
versatility, whatever you want to call
it, because that's why we're here.

00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:21.520
I think a lot, I think the vast majority
of people, that's why they're here, right?

00:37:21.710 --> 00:37:26.510
They're either, if you look at the, the
big avatars, they're either like, you

00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:30.620
know, a large enterprise, which I don't
have direct experience with, but I've

00:37:30.620 --> 00:37:33.955
learned from guys like you, Brian Cords
and stuff, like, The large enterprise

00:37:33.995 --> 00:37:37.545
people that need like an open source
solution, highly customized, highly

00:37:37.545 --> 00:37:39.305
curated, makes perfect sense there.

00:37:39.655 --> 00:37:43.845
They're either DIY wires that literally
just heard that potentially older DIY

00:37:43.855 --> 00:37:46.825
wires to seemingly got, I got to put
that asterisk in there because it was

00:37:46.825 --> 00:37:51.055
probably something that they found
probably, you know, in that first 10

00:37:51.055 --> 00:37:54.195
year mark, potentially they heard about
it, they've always tinkered with it.

00:37:54.205 --> 00:37:55.425
It's very interesting.

00:37:55.545 --> 00:37:57.945
Uh, it's a little bit of a
generalization there, but.

00:37:58.305 --> 00:38:02.215
But, but they've also found that
it was, it was free open source.

00:38:02.245 --> 00:38:04.475
I don't know how they necessarily
got sold on that, but again, it's

00:38:04.475 --> 00:38:06.155
probably like a very cheap option too.

00:38:06.615 --> 00:38:09.215
Um, and it's versatile,
which is incredible.

00:38:09.395 --> 00:38:14.415
Or you have the people that have kind
of outgrown maybe other tools, you know,

00:38:14.415 --> 00:38:18.685
maybe they went to Webflow or they went to
Wix or Squarespace and they're like, okay,

00:38:18.685 --> 00:38:21.055
well now what I can't do X, Y, and Z.

00:38:21.055 --> 00:38:24.355
How do I get, how do I,
How do I add a store?

00:38:24.365 --> 00:38:25.505
How do I do this or whatever?

00:38:25.915 --> 00:38:28.585
And then, then maybe they find a YouTube
video or something and it's like, okay,

00:38:28.585 --> 00:38:34.075
WordPress, but I mean, I don't know how
deeply you want to go into this, but like,

00:38:35.485 --> 00:38:38.375
I really just think the question becomes
like, there's a couple of questions that

00:38:38.375 --> 00:38:44.395
just pop up from what you're saying there
though, is the first one is that obviously

00:38:44.395 --> 00:38:49.645
WordPress was first there and they
had 10 golden years of being the only.

00:38:50.150 --> 00:38:52.330
So, you know, roughly 10
golden years being the only

00:38:52.330 --> 00:38:53.540
one there, which is awesome.

00:38:53.910 --> 00:38:56.430
Well, it's very, it's like,
this is extremely natural.

00:38:56.450 --> 00:38:57.640
I'm not a huge history buff.

00:38:57.640 --> 00:39:00.410
I'm sure we could find examples of
times where like somebody innovates

00:39:00.410 --> 00:39:01.880
and they're there for a period of time.

00:39:02.170 --> 00:39:06.210
And then six other people come in, they
learn from all the mistakes, they build a

00:39:06.210 --> 00:39:08.754
better product in a fraction of the time.

00:39:09.275 --> 00:39:14.085
better, you know, subjectively in a
fraction of the time, then ultimately

00:39:14.085 --> 00:39:16.355
where that ends up going, and I'm not
saying this is WordPress, I'm just

00:39:16.355 --> 00:39:19.455
saying this is a, this is a historic,
this is has to be a historical trend

00:39:19.655 --> 00:39:24.805
where like over the next 10 years,
15, 20 years, the first one can't dig

00:39:24.805 --> 00:39:27.385
itself out from, from under that hole.

00:39:27.745 --> 00:39:31.235
And then it ends up going either by
the wayside or just like way more

00:39:31.235 --> 00:39:36.540
of a plateau or way less of a, of a,
of a, uh, Of a player in the space.

00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:38.310
I guarantee we can see that somewhere.

00:39:38.310 --> 00:39:38.800
Industry.

00:39:38.810 --> 00:39:39.600
Somebody, oh God.

00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:40.000
Yeah, I mean,

00:39:40.600 --> 00:39:41.620
Matt: Apple and Microsoft.

00:39:41.640 --> 00:39:42.770
Perfect examples.

00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:43.200
You know,

00:39:43.250 --> 00:39:44.410
yeah, I mean, New England

00:39:44.420 --> 00:39:44.990
Matt: Patriots.

00:39:46.110 --> 00:39:49.120
This guy, it's big Tom
Brady guy, um, you can

00:39:49.120 --> 00:39:50.400
Matt: only win for so long, man.

00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:53.970
And then like people age out of
success and that's, you know, exactly.

00:39:53.980 --> 00:39:59.220
So I mean, the thing, the thought
would be, what do you do there?

00:39:59.270 --> 00:40:02.010
I mean, cause again, I feel like
this is kind of like in that spot.

00:40:02.010 --> 00:40:02.460
So it's like.

00:40:02.795 --> 00:40:05.525
Are you going to, you know,
there's a phrase like adapt or die.

00:40:05.545 --> 00:40:08.245
I don't know if that perfectly
applies here, but that's like one

00:40:08.245 --> 00:40:09.215
thing that kind of comes to mind.

00:40:09.475 --> 00:40:12.495
There's another thing where it's just
like, maybe now the second half of

00:40:12.495 --> 00:40:16.765
WordPress potentially or whatever is
more of just like a more mature phase

00:40:16.765 --> 00:40:18.575
where it's like, Hey, you know what?

00:40:18.675 --> 00:40:21.705
Our original goal was just to
be like a publishing platform.

00:40:22.065 --> 00:40:25.765
We still have that in our philosophy
20 years later, although over that

00:40:25.765 --> 00:40:29.325
time, the philosophy by the community
and the third party ecosystem

00:40:29.325 --> 00:40:30.775
has been extended incredibly.

00:40:31.570 --> 00:40:35.020
And we don't really align exactly
with that, but we're not going to

00:40:35.020 --> 00:40:36.650
like say, no, you can't do that.

00:40:37.390 --> 00:40:40.070
So now, it's like, we're just
going to go back to our roots.

00:40:40.875 --> 00:40:41.935
I'm saying this possible option.

00:40:41.945 --> 00:40:44.485
Like, we're just going to go back to
our roots because we're, we're not like

00:40:44.485 --> 00:40:47.665
directly, we are kind of competing with
people, but we're not kind of competing

00:40:47.665 --> 00:40:50.595
with these other ones and like, we
want more people on the platform, but

00:40:50.595 --> 00:40:54.195
we're also like, not exactly, we're
not exactly offering the same thing

00:40:54.195 --> 00:40:55.535
as like a Squarespace and a Wix.

00:40:55.685 --> 00:40:58.645
So we're just going to stick to
what we know and what we pioneered

00:40:58.645 --> 00:40:59.865
as like the publishing piece.

00:41:00.175 --> 00:41:01.125
And we're going to do that.

00:41:01.315 --> 00:41:03.365
And we're going to let the
third party people just take

00:41:03.365 --> 00:41:04.285
care of whatever they want.

00:41:04.595 --> 00:41:09.265
And if you need something other
than blog and publishing features,

00:41:09.265 --> 00:41:10.565
you can Ask someone else.

00:41:10.585 --> 00:41:14.375
That is kind of the vibe that I'm hearing
and I'm trying to piece all this together.

00:41:14.645 --> 00:41:22.685
And, uh, it's actually not a terrible
plan, assuming everyone still cares

00:41:22.685 --> 00:41:28.935
enough and assuming the world doesn't
continue to spiral into this like

00:41:29.425 --> 00:41:34.550
complete Lack of, you know, data
protection, open source, like, like I

00:41:34.560 --> 00:41:37.020
genuinely believe that like as a younger
person, like I genuinely believe with

00:41:37.030 --> 00:41:39.450
way less people care about open source.

00:41:39.640 --> 00:41:42.350
I do, but I'm saying like,
you have all these, you know,

00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:44.010
young whippersnappers, right?

00:41:44.200 --> 00:41:46.760
That are just out here on their phones,
like in their data stolen all the

00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:48.260
time or whatever, you know, wherever.

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:51.630
And then they have all this other concern.

00:41:51.640 --> 00:41:55.790
And like, if you asked a kid right
now, how did they set up a website?

00:41:55.790 --> 00:41:59.230
I think honestly, they'd probably be like
more like, Oh, just go follow my Instagram

00:41:59.240 --> 00:42:00.910
rather than like follow my blog and stuff.

00:42:01.310 --> 00:42:03.570
And I mean, this might be
cyclical, this might come back,

00:42:03.660 --> 00:42:05.020
you know, kind of the other way.

00:42:05.300 --> 00:42:06.070
I hope it does.

00:42:06.100 --> 00:42:08.710
I'm trying to kind of do that with some
of the stuff I do, and I know you are.

00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:12.570
But I know there's a lot there,
but that's kind of, that's kind

00:42:12.570 --> 00:42:16.540
of my new understanding of what we
got going on here, to an extent.

00:42:17.220 --> 00:42:18.430
I don't know if any of that resonates.

00:42:19.090 --> 00:42:28.170
Matt: I think what good leaders
will recognize is how to deal

00:42:28.580 --> 00:42:31.090
with either failure or downturn.

00:42:31.595 --> 00:42:34.745
Or you're just not the number one pick.

00:42:36.395 --> 00:42:40.585
And everyone should be
comfortable with losing.

00:42:41.635 --> 00:42:44.095
Um, I am very comfortable with losing.

00:42:44.205 --> 00:42:47.505
In fact, I feel like I'm losing
every single day and it's

00:42:47.505 --> 00:42:49.435
what keeps me coming back.

00:42:49.775 --> 00:42:55.405
Um, when you're at the top and,
and like that first 10 year ride

00:42:55.415 --> 00:42:58.025
of, of WordPress, it's phenomenal.

00:42:58.035 --> 00:42:59.725
Like you can't even imagine.

00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:05.680
How, what that's like, but we've,
you know, when you say like it has

00:43:05.680 --> 00:43:09.200
this ever happened in history before
you look at any successful tech

00:43:09.210 --> 00:43:13.230
company that just like, wow, I can't
believe how fast they're rising.

00:43:13.450 --> 00:43:15.070
Look at this is amazing.

00:43:15.070 --> 00:43:19.410
And then they crash and burn because
there's this artificialness to it.

00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:26.560
Um, and in this is a rough statement,
but it's like in, in the, the real

00:43:26.560 --> 00:43:28.120
leaders are made in the wartime.

00:43:28.525 --> 00:43:28.845
Right?

00:43:28.895 --> 00:43:35.475
The real downturn stuff on how you are
going to, you know, keep the mission

00:43:35.475 --> 00:43:42.375
going, keep people, uh, you know, backing
the cause, and generally, like, continue

00:43:42.375 --> 00:43:44.125
to build your thing to keep it going.

00:43:44.585 --> 00:43:46.815
Um, we're in that time.

00:43:48.350 --> 00:43:51.030
Largely with, with
WordPress and automatic.

00:43:51.050 --> 00:43:53.540
This is why I feel like we're
going to have like a real

00:43:53.560 --> 00:43:55.360
automatic reckoning pretty soon.

00:43:55.700 --> 00:44:00.340
Where, where something has to, like the
band aid is going to get ripped off.

00:44:00.860 --> 00:44:03.200
And it's going to be
like, we're automatic.

00:44:03.230 --> 00:44:06.490
We're here to make money
with WordPress, WordPress.

00:44:06.490 --> 00:44:08.150
The best place to get it is wordpress.

00:44:08.150 --> 00:44:09.630
com and or jetpack.

00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:12.070
And then by the way, we
have this open source thing.

00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:14.020
It's not said like that today.

00:44:14.390 --> 00:44:14.820
Today.

00:44:14.820 --> 00:44:17.160
It's just like Matt community automatic.

00:44:17.160 --> 00:44:18.630
Like we're all in the same room together.

00:44:18.870 --> 00:44:21.810
I think it's going to
be much more of like.

00:44:22.330 --> 00:44:24.530
60 percent of WordPress is automatic.

00:44:24.560 --> 00:44:28.890
40 percent is the community in terms
of the package and the presentation

00:44:28.890 --> 00:44:30.160
when it comes from wordpress.

00:44:30.160 --> 00:44:34.220
com and automatic, um, because they
need to get serious in survival

00:44:34.390 --> 00:44:38.220
again, just my opinion, but I
don't think people should just get

00:44:38.230 --> 00:44:39.740
comfortable with winning all the time.

00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:41.270
Do you have to win all the time?

00:44:41.460 --> 00:44:46.650
Do you have to have the commanding
lead of all content management systems?

00:44:47.110 --> 00:44:49.350
Um, my opinion is, is no.

00:44:49.670 --> 00:44:50.900
And when you're.

00:44:51.635 --> 00:44:54.295
When you're not finding that success
is when you're learning those

00:44:54.295 --> 00:44:55.985
lessons and you constantly shift.

00:44:56.165 --> 00:44:58.855
When I started the WP Minute,
everybody was joining the

00:44:58.855 --> 00:45:00.235
membership, I was like, boom.

00:45:00.265 --> 00:45:03.055
I solved WordPress news,
community journalism, I got it.

00:45:03.055 --> 00:45:06.135
People were, you know, sending me
clips, they were writing, you know,

00:45:06.135 --> 00:45:08.785
blog posts for me, and it died out.

00:45:09.220 --> 00:45:16.560
And I am constantly re evolving,
um, re evolving, re evaluating, and,

00:45:16.560 --> 00:45:20.450
uh, evolving the, the packaging in
the presentation of the WP Minute.

00:45:20.930 --> 00:45:27.760
Uh, a standout, um, WordPress
product that is doing just

00:45:27.770 --> 00:45:30.150
that is Beaver Builder, right?

00:45:30.450 --> 00:45:34.820
Beaver Builder, still a successful
company, still going strong,

00:45:35.370 --> 00:45:37.870
still profitable by all means.

00:45:38.180 --> 00:45:42.120
Accounts like, I, you know, I don't
see any, I don't see any downturn,

00:45:42.130 --> 00:45:45.550
everyone, their prices are going up,
so they, they're, they're understanding

00:45:45.550 --> 00:45:51.560
that they have to stay sustainable, and
they're, and they're not, um, chasing the

00:45:51.570 --> 00:45:56.040
Elementor and the Divis and the Bricks,
they, they have a strong user base, how?

00:45:56.560 --> 00:45:59.490
Well, they got there early, number
one, but they put out a great product

00:45:59.500 --> 00:46:00.910
and they listened to their customers.

00:46:01.180 --> 00:46:02.660
What the hell is wrong with that?

00:46:03.020 --> 00:46:06.960
You know, at one time I jumped into
the cesspool of Facebook groups, which

00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.860
is the worst thing for, for me to do.

00:46:09.120 --> 00:46:11.640
And somebody was like, what's
up with Beaver Builder?

00:46:11.640 --> 00:46:13.619
They haven't done anything
and yada, yada, yada.

00:46:13.620 --> 00:46:18.075
And I was like, Oh, suddenly a business
that's been in years, been in business

00:46:18.075 --> 00:46:22.585
for over a decade, serving their
customers happy, healthily and without

00:46:22.585 --> 00:46:24.425
chasing the buzzwords is a bad thing.

00:46:24.435 --> 00:46:26.175
And people just like laugh emojis on it.

00:46:26.175 --> 00:46:27.495
It's just like, why do
I even show up here?

00:46:27.695 --> 00:46:32.845
Because this crowd just wants free
fast and 29 lifetime plans, right?

00:46:33.405 --> 00:46:39.335
There's nothing wrong with building a
sustainable, profitable company that

00:46:39.415 --> 00:46:41.885
isn't super sexy and isn't just dominant.

00:46:41.985 --> 00:46:47.545
Um, in my opinion, both from like
a product perspective and from,

00:46:47.855 --> 00:46:51.825
you know, a personal perspective,
like I freaking like, I love to

00:46:51.825 --> 00:46:54.745
lose because I learned that lesson.

00:46:54.775 --> 00:46:59.165
I love to win, of course, but I also,
I don't mind living in that moment.

00:46:59.385 --> 00:47:00.955
And when I'm winning, I already know.

00:47:01.390 --> 00:47:02.480
There's going to be a downturn.

00:47:02.530 --> 00:47:07.230
Now, this is all obviously because I grew
up a lot in sales and, uh, you know, the

00:47:07.230 --> 00:47:10.830
deal's never done until the client signs
and everyone says yes until, you know,

00:47:10.830 --> 00:47:12.310
the terms come, uh, in front of them.

00:47:12.310 --> 00:47:17.270
But, um, yeah, so it's like, I
don't think we always have to win.

00:47:17.270 --> 00:47:19.320
And I, you know, Matt said something too.

00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:20.820
And, and I think you just reiterated it.

00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:25.370
Like, what, what would it look like if
we just spent a year frozen fixing stuff?

00:47:26.610 --> 00:47:28.460
You're going to have the people who
are like, Oh, you're going to lose

00:47:28.460 --> 00:47:29.530
ground to all these other people.

00:47:29.530 --> 00:47:29.980
Yeah, well.

00:47:30.520 --> 00:47:32.440
Sometimes you need to stop
and do a spring cleaning.

00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:34.400
I don't know how many people
would actually say that.

00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:35.780
I, I think a lot of

00:47:35.790 --> 00:47:39.010
Matt: people would freak out
about like no features for a year.

00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:43.260
Look how, look how they freak
out about no features now.

00:47:43.750 --> 00:47:43.900
What

00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:44.690
are the features?

00:47:45.070 --> 00:47:48.700
I don't think, I, I, maybe we're, maybe
we're, I know we're very connected but I

00:47:48.710 --> 00:47:51.720
think we're talking to slightly different
crowds because I, I get way less.

00:47:51.720 --> 00:47:52.230
I know a lot of

00:47:52.240 --> 00:47:53.100
Matt: people in the community.

00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:54.920
I know the most amount of
people in the community.

00:47:56.660 --> 00:47:57.180
Yes you do.

00:47:57.710 --> 00:48:03.500
Uh, I, I, I, Uh, what I hear more
of is, is more of the fixing side.

00:48:03.590 --> 00:48:05.320
Like there's, they've created problems.

00:48:05.350 --> 00:48:08.605
Obviously, and again, We're, we're
leaving out a large portion of this that

00:48:08.605 --> 00:48:11.585
goes kind of without said of like the
amount of technical debt that you rack up

00:48:11.585 --> 00:48:12.985
when you do all this type of thing, so.

00:48:13.395 --> 00:48:16.725
We talked about that kind of before,
but that I hear more from that angle

00:48:16.725 --> 00:48:19.085
rather than like, Oh, why don't
they have this, this, and this?

00:48:19.085 --> 00:48:19.915
Like, yeah, for sure.

00:48:19.915 --> 00:48:21.585
Like, you know, mobile
responsiveness or whatever.

00:48:21.595 --> 00:48:25.095
Like, but I feel like at least people
I talked to, it's more of like, I

00:48:25.095 --> 00:48:27.405
don't like what has been done so far.

00:48:27.405 --> 00:48:30.265
So if we could fix that, I feel
like they would be happy about that.

00:48:30.275 --> 00:48:30.675
Surely.

00:48:30.675 --> 00:48:30.995
Nope.

00:48:30.995 --> 00:48:34.325
Surely everybody wants everything
to be perfect and done as fast

00:48:34.325 --> 00:48:35.585
as possible and new stuff.

00:48:35.625 --> 00:48:36.125
I get that.

00:48:36.125 --> 00:48:36.975
But that's not realistic.

00:48:37.265 --> 00:48:40.105
One other point I want
to make is that you said.

00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:45.300
First thing, are you saying that
we're in the, the stage of WordPress

00:48:45.310 --> 00:48:47.260
where hard times create strong men?

00:48:47.910 --> 00:48:48.110
Yeah.

00:48:48.110 --> 00:48:50.710
Or are you saying that we
haven't gotten there yet?

00:48:51.460 --> 00:48:54.110
Matt: No, I think we're,
I think we've been in it.

00:48:54.740 --> 00:48:56.200
I think we've loosely been in it.

00:48:56.590 --> 00:49:02.480
I don't think you're going to see,
like, again, I don't think you'll

00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:04.620
ever see WordPress crash and burn.

00:49:04.990 --> 00:49:09.950
I think it, if, if, if there were ever
like a five year downturn, it would

00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:12.260
be slow, it wouldn't be off a cliff.

00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:15.750
Yeah, I don't, I don't see that
as being possible either, and I'm

00:49:15.750 --> 00:49:20.460
not sure many people are actually
saying that or suggesting that.

00:49:20.460 --> 00:49:26.055
I think it's more of just like, they
see They see that the growth rate

00:49:26.075 --> 00:49:27.515
is not a growth rate really anymore.

00:49:27.525 --> 00:49:29.575
They just see that it's a plateau
or they see that it's maybe a

00:49:29.575 --> 00:49:32.615
slight decline or like certain
stats are indicating that again.

00:49:32.935 --> 00:49:33.145
Sure.

00:49:33.155 --> 00:49:34.355
We're not the only people
talking about that.

00:49:34.515 --> 00:49:39.435
Matt: And in five years you could
have, the upturn could be 10x because

00:49:39.445 --> 00:49:44.075
all of these people who left WordPress
to go to these other platforms are

00:49:44.155 --> 00:49:45.705
now, will come back to WordPress.

00:49:45.885 --> 00:49:51.675
Because here's the equation, in my
opinion, and, you know, I'd love to

00:49:51.675 --> 00:49:55.084
hear from folks listening to this,
Webflow, let's say Squarespace,

00:49:55.085 --> 00:49:59.065
Wix, Webflow, um, Shopify.

00:49:59.455 --> 00:50:01.075
What props this up?

00:50:01.395 --> 00:50:04.125
What, what props those
product companies up?

00:50:04.525 --> 00:50:05.545
What holds them up?

00:50:06.135 --> 00:50:09.745
Customers, people giving
them money, right?

00:50:09.965 --> 00:50:12.205
That is what keeps them going.

00:50:12.615 --> 00:50:14.635
So there's always that.

00:50:15.630 --> 00:50:20.100
struggle of marketing dollars, product
dollars, you know, taking from one

00:50:20.140 --> 00:50:21.640
platform and getting them on boarding.

00:50:21.640 --> 00:50:25.180
Then maybe they go one square space
guy goes to Wix, goes to Shopify.

00:50:27.080 --> 00:50:33.730
The only thing that props those companies
up is dollars and money and users

00:50:33.770 --> 00:50:36.350
and customers in the WordPress world.

00:50:36.670 --> 00:50:37.850
It's open source.

00:50:37.990 --> 00:50:42.765
So WordPress is propped up just like
Joseph has said in that clip is, By the

00:50:42.765 --> 00:50:48.235
people, we need people to be using it,
and people to be interested in it, because

00:50:48.235 --> 00:50:49.955
if they're not, there's no WordPress.

00:50:49.955 --> 00:50:54.995
People keep WordPress propped up.

00:50:55.615 --> 00:51:00.955
Dollars keep Squarespace, Wix,
Shopify, and Webflow propped up.

00:51:01.145 --> 00:51:04.895
Because as soon as the dollars dry out,
those companies will fall off a cliff.

00:51:05.265 --> 00:51:07.165
Dollars can dry out in WordPress.

00:51:08.035 --> 00:51:10.125
And you won't see an off the cliff.

00:51:10.685 --> 00:51:14.115
You might see a gradual decline,
but it won't be off the cliff.

00:51:14.175 --> 00:51:16.215
Those other will go out of business.

00:51:16.575 --> 00:51:19.795
There's no going out of business
in open source WordPress.

00:51:20.335 --> 00:51:25.615
I mean, I'm not going to act like
I know exactly how everything works

00:51:25.615 --> 00:51:30.205
here, but like just trying to, I don't
disagree with what you're saying.

00:51:30.315 --> 00:51:33.995
I definitely agree with the fact that
like the other side is like dollars

00:51:34.075 --> 00:51:36.115
a hundred percent agree, but I think.

00:51:37.150 --> 00:51:38.310
Is the term reductive?

00:51:38.330 --> 00:51:42.630
Is it too reductive to say
that WordPress is just people?

00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:46.660
Because if there was no money, there
would also be no, no people like there

00:51:46.660 --> 00:51:49.870
would be like in, in current state
of like the, how the world works.

00:51:49.870 --> 00:51:52.530
Like this is a big conversation
around the contributing thing for

00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:55.310
contributing thing for either if
you're sponsored or if you're just

00:51:55.310 --> 00:51:58.130
doing free contribution or whatever,
like, and we've had this conversation

00:51:58.130 --> 00:52:00.010
before, but it gets very nuanced there.

00:52:00.010 --> 00:52:01.220
I feel like, are you.

00:52:03.850 --> 00:52:07.240
Like what's, I think what I think
you're saying is yes, at the

00:52:07.270 --> 00:52:09.640
core of it, if there's no people,
because it's open source, there's no

00:52:09.640 --> 00:52:11.460
people, people are propping it up.

00:52:11.470 --> 00:52:12.200
I get that.

00:52:13.640 --> 00:52:17.280
But is that actually the full story?

00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:21.230
Meaning like the contributors
that are contributing, A lot of

00:52:21.230 --> 00:52:25.030
them are getting paid by either
automatic or a GoDaddy or whatever.

00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:29.080
And if WordPress, again, we're playing
hypotheticals here, but if WordPress

00:52:29.100 --> 00:52:34.320
went on a strict downturn and like it
got actually bleak, it's nowhere near

00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:38.880
that, nor do I really think it's going
to get there, but like if, but it's only

00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:42.050
not going to get there if we recognize
that these things are possible, we

00:52:42.050 --> 00:52:44.030
can't like think anything is infallible.

00:52:44.030 --> 00:52:47.580
That is, that is literally how you go
extinct regardless of what you are.

00:52:47.890 --> 00:52:49.270
But if.

00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:53.580
If WordPress did look very bleak, don't
you think like a go daddy, I'm making

00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:56.240
names up here, but like, don't you think
like a go daddy or somebody would be

00:52:56.240 --> 00:53:00.980
like, eh, we're gonna, like they might
reconsider because what they're doing is

00:53:00.980 --> 00:53:06.910
they are literally paying people to go
work to some degree on it, or maybe they

00:53:06.910 --> 00:53:08.600
would pull back or something like that.

00:53:08.650 --> 00:53:09.260
Matt: But yeah,

00:53:09.950 --> 00:53:13.740
but that's, but, but what I'm saying is
that's ultimately goes back to the money.

00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:16.920
It, it, it's people for sure,
but it goes back to the money.

00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:19.250
Now you may have a situation where
somebody is like, okay, well.

00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:21.110
I want to turn WordPress around.

00:53:21.130 --> 00:53:24.250
I'm just going to volunteer
more or I'm going to, whatever.

00:53:24.700 --> 00:53:26.640
I'm like, you take the
money out of it somehow.

00:53:26.640 --> 00:53:28.330
I just, I just don't
know how that's like a,

00:53:28.750 --> 00:53:29.500
Matt: I think it's the actual

00:53:29.500 --> 00:53:30.020
reality.

00:53:30.190 --> 00:53:36.120
Matt: The economics of a project
being propped up by people

00:53:36.130 --> 00:53:38.090
versus money is the web flow.

00:53:38.100 --> 00:53:40.739
Like again, square space, any, any
of these square space, Shopify,

00:53:40.740 --> 00:53:42.000
Shopify is a better example.

00:53:42.060 --> 00:53:43.370
Shopify, cause it's the most expensive.

00:53:44.290 --> 00:53:46.210
Although web flow is pretty
up there for e commerce.

00:53:46.780 --> 00:53:47.320
Um,

00:53:49.890 --> 00:53:53.990
Or, no, Webflow is a good example
because Webflow is probably the one that,

00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:57.550
Webflow is probably the one that you
do have to worry the most about this.

00:53:58.030 --> 00:53:59.750
Because, long term.

00:54:00.850 --> 00:54:01.760
100%, long term.

00:54:01.790 --> 00:54:02.210
Not right now.

00:54:02.550 --> 00:54:03.780
Not right now, but long term.

00:54:04.290 --> 00:54:08.990
Um, Shopify will probably win because of
all the investment money that it already

00:54:08.990 --> 00:54:11.020
has and the brand equity that it owns.

00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:16.065
Um, throughout people's, you know,
Cognitive level of understanding

00:54:16.065 --> 00:54:18.665
like if I want e commerce, I'm
generally looking at Shopify.

00:54:19.305 --> 00:54:23.910
Um, But Webflow would be one where
suddenly just like we see with freaking

00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:28.320
Inflation and streaming services
going up and you know YouTube premium

00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.630
was once 12 bucks and now it's 22
bucks or whatever That's not for us.

00:54:31.630 --> 00:54:33.680
I'm just like how why I'm on the family

00:54:33.680 --> 00:54:33.980
plan.

00:54:34.170 --> 00:54:38.120
Matt: Yeah I'm just like I don't even
understand how you're charging me more

00:54:38.120 --> 00:54:41.210
because the way I see it as a tech person
Bandwidth costs are going down, but

00:54:41.210 --> 00:54:44.090
then people are saying well energy costs
are going up So man, so there's like

00:54:44.390 --> 00:54:49.010
all of those things Economics impacted
those companies where if bandwidth and

00:54:49.010 --> 00:54:55.580
storage and energy and, um, payroll
and taxes and operating in different

00:54:55.940 --> 00:55:00.720
global in governments and environments
and tax regulation, all that stuff.

00:55:01.095 --> 00:55:04.935
is what impacts these companies
like a web and investors, right?

00:55:05.485 --> 00:55:09.425
And investors like, give me a return
on this investment, or we're not giving

00:55:09.425 --> 00:55:12.855
you more money for the runway you
need to hire more people to do more

00:55:12.855 --> 00:55:14.565
marketing, to do more advertising.

00:55:15.035 --> 00:55:21.255
All of those economics are straightforward
impacting, um, these companies,

00:55:21.275 --> 00:55:24.345
Webflow, Wix, Squarespace, Shopify.

00:55:25.185 --> 00:55:29.860
And in the WordPress side, it's
While, yes, you make the argument of

00:55:29.860 --> 00:55:31.460
like, don't a lot of people get paid?

00:55:31.740 --> 00:55:36.480
Yes, but this is that tug of war of
open source where WordPress is open

00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:39.670
source, so it's not like GoDaddy
has to pay a WordPress license.

00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.450
As long as they're, they
can, anyone can use it.

00:55:42.450 --> 00:55:44.570
They don't have to give back to
WordPress if they don't want to.

00:55:45.120 --> 00:55:49.870
But, they choose to because they realize
it makes all of WordPress better,

00:55:49.890 --> 00:55:51.630
which does improve their position.

00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:52.910
But they don't have to.

00:55:53.260 --> 00:55:58.405
There's plenty of, Hosts out there that
do nothing for WordPress and still sell

00:55:58.535 --> 00:56:03.315
air quotes WordPress hosting and and
there's a massive You know lead flow

00:56:03.315 --> 00:56:06.795
for them is give me that WordPress
site for five bucks a month and they

00:56:06.795 --> 00:56:13.144
happily say yes And they don't give
back so Yeah, these other companies are

00:56:13.145 --> 00:56:16.285
Tied to that economic success for them.

00:56:16.285 --> 00:56:18.355
Whereas WordPress, you know,
it's it's not like that

00:56:19.350 --> 00:56:20.030
na: Uh,

00:56:20.110 --> 00:56:22.730
yeah, I mean, I, I, I guess
I get what you're saying.

00:56:22.750 --> 00:56:26.130
I'm just not fully, I guess I just
don't fully, it hasn't fully clicked

00:56:26.130 --> 00:56:31.290
with me yet because I still feel like
GoDaddy is a for profit corporation and

00:56:31.290 --> 00:56:34.890
pretty much everything that they do is,
I would have to assume we're picking

00:56:34.890 --> 00:56:36.250
on GoDaddy, but it could be anybody.

00:56:36.560 --> 00:56:40.710
I'm assuming that a company of that size
cares about money because they wouldn't

00:56:40.720 --> 00:56:41.930
be there if they didn't care about money.

00:56:42.180 --> 00:56:45.310
So like, if you take that and
then you say, okay, well, why

00:56:45.310 --> 00:56:46.370
are they working on WordPress?

00:56:46.410 --> 00:56:47.580
Well, it's because it makes the money.

00:56:47.935 --> 00:56:51.485
But if it stopped making them money,
which you could, you could theory craft

00:56:51.485 --> 00:56:55.115
a world where that didn't happen, because
that's effectively what we're doing, then

00:56:55.115 --> 00:56:56.715
they wouldn't probably be working on it.

00:56:56.715 --> 00:56:59.135
And they would go to stat statmatic
or whatever, like something else.

00:56:59.135 --> 00:57:00.644
So like.

00:57:01.165 --> 00:57:04.305
In that world and in that chain
of events, I just still feel

00:57:04.305 --> 00:57:05.615
like it comes back to money.

00:57:05.645 --> 00:57:07.935
I understand the nuance of this situation.

00:57:07.935 --> 00:57:13.015
It's not the same, but in a world
where you have to have money to eat

00:57:13.055 --> 00:57:16.275
and to survive, I don't know how
it doesn't come back to the money.

00:57:16.295 --> 00:57:17.275
And I'm not saying I even like that.

00:57:17.275 --> 00:57:19.355
I'm just saying, like,
I don't, I don't know

00:57:19.355 --> 00:57:19.735
Matt: how.

00:57:20.105 --> 00:57:24.955
What would really be interesting is
if, just as again, a theory crafting

00:57:24.965 --> 00:57:30.115
experiment, is if Wix said, Oh, we
have a licensed version of Wix now.

00:57:30.575 --> 00:57:32.115
And any web host can install it.

00:57:33.125 --> 00:57:40.904
That would really push the boundaries
of of, um, how WordPress can,

00:57:40.905 --> 00:57:44.255
like, how WordPress survives, like,
from an open source perspective.

00:57:44.585 --> 00:57:47.645
Because if Wix is so great and so easy
to use, and all of a sudden they're

00:57:47.645 --> 00:57:51.375
like, oh yeah, any, like, go daddy,
you can license the Wix builder.

00:57:52.585 --> 00:57:53.045
Wow.

00:57:53.465 --> 00:57:54.505
What would happen then?

00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:55.920
And at what cost?

00:57:56.430 --> 00:57:58.440
And then it's the economics game again.

00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:00.270
At what cost does, does that happen?

00:58:00.420 --> 00:58:05.130
Does a Wix come in and say, Hey, GoDaddy,
it's a bucket website, it's a buck a

00:58:05.130 --> 00:58:08.850
website for every website you launch with
the Wix builder, but then in three years

00:58:08.850 --> 00:58:14.640
it's uh, five bucks a website, and in, you
know, 10 years, it's 10 bucks a website.

00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:15.690
And at what point?

00:58:16.410 --> 00:58:20.970
Do you go back to that, to that
same struggle of, of economics where

00:58:21.310 --> 00:58:22.880
GoDaddy goes, Oh, that's interesting.

00:58:22.890 --> 00:58:25.890
And they buy in just like any other,
like, like we all did with streaming

00:58:25.890 --> 00:58:28.170
services, Netflix, 10 bucks a month.

00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:30.080
And we're like, okay, yes, give it to me.

00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:33.560
Um, and now you're 30 bucks
a month for 4k streaming.

00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:35.730
And you're wondering
what the hell happened.

00:58:35.730 --> 00:58:38.060
So that would be an amazing thing to see.

00:58:38.610 --> 00:58:43.300
There's no other piece of software that
challenges WordPress at that level.

00:58:44.060 --> 00:58:44.770
Drupal.

00:58:46.310 --> 00:58:47.000
Kinda.

00:58:47.730 --> 00:58:51.440
But no other web host is
installing a WordPress rival.

00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:53.830
An open source WordPress rival.

00:58:54.210 --> 00:58:54.500
None.

00:58:55.540 --> 00:58:56.060
There isn't any.

00:58:57.510 --> 00:58:57.990
Not easy.

00:58:59.150 --> 00:58:59.930
It doesn't exist.

00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:00.840
It's definitely not easy.

00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:01.280
Yeah.

00:59:01.410 --> 00:59:03.780
Matt: I wanna, I wanna talk about
the marketing before we wrap up.

00:59:04.190 --> 00:59:05.210
And just get your thoughts.

00:59:05.250 --> 00:59:08.980
Uh, I, I, Hope we would've talked a lot
more about marketing through this episode,

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:13.250
but One of the things that came out of it
was, Hey, maybe we should be marketing.

00:59:14.415 --> 00:59:18.305
WordPress better, maybe there should
be a consortium, uh, of folks that,

00:59:18.575 --> 00:59:23.835
you know, put money in a pool and, and
advertise, um, or sponsor WordPress.

00:59:24.965 --> 00:59:27.255
Uh, I've seen stuff like
that failed miserably.

00:59:28.145 --> 00:59:31.785
Uh, as somebody who grew up in the car
industry, my family owned car dealerships,

00:59:32.195 --> 00:59:38.000
and that was the thing that, how General
Motors dealerships used to advertise.

00:59:38.335 --> 00:59:43.745
is you'd have like this percentage pool
and as a smaller dealership in a smaller

00:59:43.745 --> 00:59:47.985
market against like Boston dealerships,
like it was, there was an imbalance.

00:59:47.985 --> 00:59:51.175
We would put all this money in, but then
all the advertising was spent in a much

00:59:51.175 --> 00:59:54.675
more expensive market, uh, in, in Boston.

00:59:54.725 --> 00:59:56.875
Of course, this was many, many years ago.

00:59:57.560 --> 00:59:58.640
But it was the same kind of thing.

00:59:58.640 --> 01:00:01.520
You'd have like 15, 20 dealers in
a room putting in this money and

01:00:01.520 --> 01:00:06.020
only two or three of them really
getting, um, the benefit of a, of

01:00:06.020 --> 01:00:07.930
a co marketing budget like this.

01:00:08.130 --> 01:00:11.190
And we'd be yelling at, or not me,
my father would be yelling at General

01:00:11.190 --> 01:00:13.130
Motors going, this isn't working.

01:00:13.140 --> 01:00:16.970
How are you going to back, uh, some of
this expenses too, which is what we kind

01:00:16.970 --> 01:00:18.440
of do with like automatic and word camps.

01:00:18.950 --> 01:00:24.570
Um, so I've seen that, you know, really,
you know, fail miserably from a more

01:00:24.580 --> 01:00:27.260
biased standpoint as a content creator.

01:00:29.730 --> 01:00:31.490
I got my hands in the air
if you're just listening.

01:00:31.850 --> 01:00:33.160
We've been here all along.

01:00:34.540 --> 01:00:36.060
We've been here all along.

01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:39.970
You know, asking for support
and sponsorship dollars for

01:00:39.980 --> 01:00:41.920
marketing your WordPress products.

01:00:42.330 --> 01:00:46.560
Um, you know, whether that's through
blog posts, newsletter sponsors, videos,

01:00:46.860 --> 01:00:52.090
like maybe the question is, should
the content creators come together?

01:00:52.690 --> 01:00:57.200
and form a coalition of
here's all the stuff we offer.

01:00:57.390 --> 01:01:02.050
Finally work together instead of
competitively and say, Hey, WordPress

01:01:02.080 --> 01:01:07.300
product companies, we've been here
for a while, support us and we can get

01:01:07.300 --> 01:01:10.770
this message out instead of, you know,
coming up with your own ad dollars

01:01:10.770 --> 01:01:15.730
and figuring out like who's going to
spend what, you know, uh, what are

01:01:15.730 --> 01:01:20.510
your thoughts on, on the marketing
stuff from like a coalition standpoint?

01:01:20.555 --> 01:01:25.745
WPCCA, WordPress Content
Creators Association.

01:01:26.505 --> 01:01:27.245
Sounds pretty good.

01:01:27.655 --> 01:01:29.165
Matt: Oh, you're one of those guys.

01:01:29.175 --> 01:01:30.055
Sounds pretty good.

01:01:30.835 --> 01:01:31.555
Um,

01:01:33.685 --> 01:01:37.365
I mean, obviously you have way more
experience with this than I do, but

01:01:37.385 --> 01:01:41.475
we've talked a lot and that's, it's
something that I'm trying to definitely

01:01:41.475 --> 01:01:44.565
focus on more of, because I mean,
again, I go back to the other thing.

01:01:44.565 --> 01:01:48.665
I try to be like straight
up and logical about it.

01:01:48.665 --> 01:01:50.825
Like you cannot do the level of stuff.

01:01:51.825 --> 01:01:54.775
Like creating content is hard, no matter
what people think about it or whatever.

01:01:54.775 --> 01:01:55.895
Like you have to be there.

01:01:55.895 --> 01:01:58.975
If you're doing live streams, there's
that it's easier if you're good at

01:01:58.975 --> 01:02:00.195
it or if it comes naturally to you.

01:02:00.195 --> 01:02:04.905
And that's, and I understand as a, you
know, maybe as WordPress or automatic

01:02:04.905 --> 01:02:06.965
or definitely as like a third party.

01:02:07.390 --> 01:02:10.610
These, these guys and gals like out here,
they're really good like developers.

01:02:10.610 --> 01:02:12.590
They're really good at like
understanding and solving problems.

01:02:12.590 --> 01:02:15.850
It is very difficult, different
and difficult to do marketing

01:02:15.870 --> 01:02:17.020
as well for your product.

01:02:17.410 --> 01:02:20.710
So, you know, if we're talking third
party or even just in core, I get it.

01:02:20.720 --> 01:02:22.860
Like it's a def, it's a
completely different skillset

01:02:22.870 --> 01:02:23.910
than a lot of other things.

01:02:24.300 --> 01:02:27.070
Um, you know, just as, as like
programming would be or whatever.

01:02:27.070 --> 01:02:35.210
So, but I think that there, I'm, I'm
hopeful with things like the YouTuber, uh,

01:02:35.220 --> 01:02:39.215
group that Ann has put together there that
like, I think it's a sign that there is a

01:02:39.215 --> 01:02:41.825
little bit more of understanding, like we
talked about earlier in the episode here

01:02:41.825 --> 01:02:46.545
about like what is happening, why this is
important, why content creators and like

01:02:46.545 --> 01:02:50.715
the people in this space, even like media
in general, like all of that is important.

01:02:51.235 --> 01:02:54.495
Um, you know, putting Jamie at
the head of WordPress, we will see

01:02:54.495 --> 01:02:56.645
how that, that goes ultimately.

01:02:56.885 --> 01:03:00.975
But I think that at least on the surface,
definitely give it, I'll, I'll give it

01:03:01.105 --> 01:03:05.560
in some ways the benefit of the doubt
fully there that like, Jamie is a content

01:03:05.560 --> 01:03:06.710
guy, a hundred percent about that.

01:03:06.720 --> 01:03:09.570
Like he is, he said it yesterday
on the WP Tonic, like he

01:03:09.580 --> 01:03:10.750
thinks about that all the time.

01:03:11.210 --> 01:03:15.040
Um, so I do think that that mindset is
a hundred percent necessary if you want

01:03:15.050 --> 01:03:17.620
to grow, you know, as a platform, right?

01:03:17.620 --> 01:03:19.970
Like WordPress as a platform, like
that definitely needs to happen.

01:03:20.220 --> 01:03:22.635
We could talk about the nuances
of everything there, obviously,

01:03:22.635 --> 01:03:24.610
as it relates to the open source
and community and everything.

01:03:24.610 --> 01:03:26.580
But that aside, if we're just
talking about marketing, I do

01:03:26.600 --> 01:03:28.190
think that that's necessary.

01:03:28.190 --> 01:03:29.840
Uh, that said though.

01:03:31.220 --> 01:03:35.310
I also think there's another angle where
you definitely can't just have like a

01:03:35.320 --> 01:03:39.580
central, like this is, this would kind of
go against that whole idea of almost like,

01:03:40.610 --> 01:03:45.440
obviously WordPress isn't necessarily
decentralized sort of in the definition of

01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:48.990
that term, but like, you can't just have
it all coming from one place, so to speak.

01:03:49.490 --> 01:03:52.660
Um, but there is, there's
another angle of it.

01:03:52.680 --> 01:03:55.520
I know I'm contradicting here a
little bit where like, okay, we need

01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:57.920
to have like a, uh, unrelenting.

01:03:58.535 --> 01:04:01.495
Whatever, like solid, transparent
message for everything like that.

01:04:01.495 --> 01:04:05.155
I a hundred percent agree with
that, but are you going to get a,

01:04:05.685 --> 01:04:07.445
like a cohesive message together?

01:04:07.505 --> 01:04:08.605
Like, is that possible?

01:04:08.615 --> 01:04:09.125
You know what I mean?

01:04:09.125 --> 01:04:10.905
Like, I don't, I don't
know if it is possible.

01:04:10.905 --> 01:04:15.725
And that's why I feel that WordPress
as a whole, because of its nature,

01:04:15.755 --> 01:04:20.215
and it's not like a corporation, it's
not a product, I don't know if you can

01:04:20.215 --> 01:04:26.195
really have one specific angle that
you, that you attack from because.

01:04:26.530 --> 01:04:28.260
It literally is different for everyone.

01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:30.960
It means something different for
everyone that, that builds it, which

01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:34.140
is one of its greatest strengths and
potentially greatest weaknesses from

01:04:34.310 --> 01:04:36.080
a traditional marketing perspective.

01:04:36.750 --> 01:04:39.190
And, uh, yeah, I don't really
have too many answers here.

01:04:39.190 --> 01:04:45.190
I just think that maybe, maybe one
thing could be like a, like a blend

01:04:45.240 --> 01:04:49.720
of voices coming from the core of it.

01:04:49.990 --> 01:04:52.180
That's like, Oh, you can use
it like this, this, and this.

01:04:52.520 --> 01:04:55.390
But at the same time, I go back to it,
and I'm contradicting myself again, that

01:04:55.430 --> 01:04:56.980
I don't think that's what WordPress.

01:04:56.980 --> 01:04:59.970
org actually, that I don't think
that's the philosophy of WordPress.

01:04:59.970 --> 01:05:00.180
org.

01:05:00.640 --> 01:05:03.570
And I, and I said this the other day
when I was watching Kevin's stream on

01:05:03.570 --> 01:05:06.750
it, and I was thinking about it, and
I was like, at a certain point, if, if

01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:08.420
this is what the philosophy of WordPress.

01:05:08.420 --> 01:05:12.320
org is, you kind of just need to
either accept it, or try to influence

01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:16.460
the change, which we're kind of doing
that sort of maybe, I don't know.

01:05:16.555 --> 01:05:20.805
Um, I know there's a lot of stuff there,
but it's, it's not an easy answer.

01:05:20.845 --> 01:05:22.675
Like there's no way to
easily answer this stuff.

01:05:22.695 --> 01:05:24.625
And if you're going to market
something, you need to have what you're

01:05:24.625 --> 01:05:25.775
going to market and the messaging.

01:05:25.775 --> 01:05:28.785
But if you can't fully refine that
messaging, how do you market it?

01:05:29.105 --> 01:05:29.285
Yeah.

01:05:29.285 --> 01:05:31.455
So it's not an easy, it's
not an easy situation.

01:05:31.505 --> 01:05:31.735
Have I

01:05:31.735 --> 01:05:35.195
Matt: ever shared the, uh, what would you
do with the keys to the kingdom blog post?

01:05:37.985 --> 01:05:42.145
Um, no, I've only heard you say
that like 15 times, uh, on a,

01:05:42.175 --> 01:05:43.355
on a more serious note, like.

01:05:43.725 --> 01:05:49.215
I, I, I believe Miriam is calling
for a sort of, um, I don't know,

01:05:49.545 --> 01:05:53.955
not unofficial, an official sort of
chat, uh, around Contributor Day on

01:05:53.955 --> 01:05:57.865
the marketing, uh, for the marketing
stuff coming up at WordCamp US.

01:05:58.855 --> 01:06:04.495
Here's the only thing that I would
say is, it cannot be, and, and

01:06:04.495 --> 01:06:09.445
probably technically cannot be, but,
Emotionally, it cannot be my own opinion.

01:06:09.475 --> 01:06:12.935
And I think technically cannot be
part of the make marketing team

01:06:13.095 --> 01:06:16.385
because I think the make marketing
team is officially just frozen.

01:06:16.935 --> 01:06:21.705
Uh, we'll get more insights to
that from Josefa at the media

01:06:21.705 --> 01:06:23.345
core meeting in a couple of weeks.

01:06:24.275 --> 01:06:27.565
Uh, but technically, like, I don't
think we can officially corral around

01:06:27.575 --> 01:06:29.435
having another make marketing team.

01:06:29.745 --> 01:06:36.145
Um, I don't think it will be supported
by, by Josefa and, and company.

01:06:36.940 --> 01:06:38.940
Because they're trying the
MediaCore experiment right now.

01:06:39.190 --> 01:06:41.980
So I would urge us not to do that.

01:06:42.680 --> 01:06:44.150
Or try for that again.

01:06:44.370 --> 01:06:48.510
Because what, what we're going
to run into is the same exact

01:06:48.520 --> 01:06:53.130
limitations and frustrations with
the marketing team for many years.

01:06:53.600 --> 01:06:54.540
No access.

01:06:54.740 --> 01:06:55.440
No data.

01:06:55.865 --> 01:06:57.615
You don't work directly
with a product team.

01:06:57.625 --> 01:07:00.425
Like some of the best marketing
teams work directly with the

01:07:00.425 --> 01:07:01.775
product teams of a company.

01:07:02.155 --> 01:07:07.475
Uh, how can you not work with a product
team hand in hand on a successful

01:07:07.475 --> 01:07:10.885
marketing team knowing what's coming,
knowing how the users want to use

01:07:10.885 --> 01:07:14.685
it, working with users, working with
brand messaging, working with data.

01:07:14.945 --> 01:07:19.185
That is the, the basis of
a great marketing company.

01:07:19.575 --> 01:07:22.165
Um, or a great marketing
team, I should say.

01:07:22.860 --> 01:07:25.750
And we're just going to fall victim
to that again if we try to make the

01:07:25.750 --> 01:07:27.110
official Make Marketing team again.

01:07:27.780 --> 01:07:33.550
Having said that, what, what can and
should be done with this coalition is

01:07:33.550 --> 01:07:39.590
to get boots on the ground for exactly
what you were saying and build up

01:07:40.220 --> 01:07:44.980
the, build up their own set of data,
which I know is extremely difficult,

01:07:45.010 --> 01:07:49.430
but this is why this is extremely
difficult, is boots on the ground for

01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:51.490
all those avatars that use WordPress.

01:07:52.675 --> 01:07:53.835
So, I don't know.

01:07:54.095 --> 01:07:59.725
Theoretically, let's say it's
Elementor, um, it's Gravity Forms,

01:07:59.785 --> 01:08:04.125
it's Barn2 Plugins with their e
commerce plugins, whatever, there's

01:08:04.125 --> 01:08:05.965
another company in there, an agency.

01:08:06.435 --> 01:08:08.835
So you have these four,
like, types of people.

01:08:08.835 --> 01:08:11.625
You have people who are page builder
users, you have people who are form users,

01:08:11.625 --> 01:08:13.045
you have people who are e commerce users.

01:08:13.655 --> 01:08:20.920
In this coalition, the dollars should
be spent either with WordPress media

01:08:20.920 --> 01:08:25.990
companies, or boots on the ground
getting those stories from the

01:08:26.020 --> 01:08:31.880
actual users so that you can identify
how these people use WordPress.

01:08:32.220 --> 01:08:33.470
Because you're absolutely right.

01:08:33.470 --> 01:08:36.300
You can't just have one marketing
message for WordPress because it's

01:08:36.300 --> 01:08:39.040
fucking a million different things
to a million different people.

01:08:39.400 --> 01:08:44.560
So you got to build the marketing stories
for the bloggers, for the e commerce

01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:46.240
people, for the page, for the web.

01:08:46.595 --> 01:08:50.135
page builder people for the form
builders, like how these different

01:08:50.135 --> 01:08:51.425
people implement this software.

01:08:51.435 --> 01:08:56.225
That's where the time should be spent
and then bubble that up into your

01:08:57.515 --> 01:09:00.935
little tactical advertisements that way.

01:09:00.995 --> 01:09:04.955
Because if you're trying to do it
the make way, it's just, I, I, I,

01:09:05.115 --> 01:09:07.745
I think it's, it would be destined
to fail again for all the same

01:09:07.745 --> 01:09:09.015
reasons we've already seen it fail.

01:09:09.425 --> 01:09:13.845
And if it's just like, how do
we promote WordPress at large?

01:09:14.615 --> 01:09:18.405
That's also destined to fail because
there's just so many different

01:09:18.415 --> 01:09:20.015
ways that people can use WordPress.

01:09:20.405 --> 01:09:25.125
And inevitably you're going to
alienate somebody's message.

01:09:25.165 --> 01:09:27.265
Whether it's the product company
who's putting money into this

01:09:27.265 --> 01:09:28.515
marketing machine for you.

01:09:28.815 --> 01:09:30.425
And they go, hey man, I'm a page builder.

01:09:30.425 --> 01:09:33.195
You're not even talking to any, you're
not making any page builder ads.

01:09:33.195 --> 01:09:34.615
They're gonna freak out about that.

01:09:34.705 --> 01:09:36.665
And you're gonna forget the end user.

01:09:36.725 --> 01:09:39.775
Who is the page builder user who's
going, you keep telling me I can

01:09:39.775 --> 01:09:41.005
sell stuff on this WordPress website.

01:09:41.005 --> 01:09:41.445
I don't care.

01:09:41.945 --> 01:09:42.965
I just wanna build my website.

01:09:43.495 --> 01:09:43.765
You know?

01:09:44.195 --> 01:09:44.485
So

01:09:45.405 --> 01:09:47.875
yeah, I think just one
more thought on that.

01:09:47.875 --> 01:09:52.065
I think that, uh, I am optimistic, like
overall in general, I think there's a

01:09:52.065 --> 01:09:55.265
lot of really good things obviously still
going and all the other stuff we talked

01:09:55.265 --> 01:09:57.665
about specifically on that point though.

01:09:59.805 --> 01:10:04.545
I would say that I'm, I'm, I'm optimistic,
but I'm super skeptical just from

01:10:04.545 --> 01:10:09.255
what I've heard, like specifically
recently, just because I don't, I

01:10:09.255 --> 01:10:11.795
don't have long term experience.

01:10:12.830 --> 01:10:18.020
but like, I don't, I'm not convinced
right now that, you know, the people

01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:25.060
that could make that call, so to speak,
actually want that to be the outward,

01:10:25.940 --> 01:10:27.950
outward perspective of what WordPress is.

01:10:28.070 --> 01:10:30.200
Like I can't fully wrap
my head around that yet.

01:10:30.540 --> 01:10:32.420
Like, I, I don't, I
don't, I don't believe it.

01:10:32.420 --> 01:10:35.780
Like, I don't believe that, you
know, like page builders need to

01:10:35.830 --> 01:10:39.730
shine, like, like maybe e commerce
to an extent with like WooCommerce.

01:10:40.395 --> 01:10:44.425
But I just don't know if that's, I
hope differently because that is the

01:10:44.555 --> 01:10:48.195
huge strength of WordPress, but I'm
not sure, like, and you can tell me,

01:10:48.215 --> 01:10:52.635
has that ever been at the forefront
of like, I'll make up a scenario, Matt

01:10:52.635 --> 01:10:54.135
Mullenwig is like speaking or whatever.

01:10:54.135 --> 01:10:56.905
And has he ever said, I'm sure he
said, Oh, we got like millions of

01:10:56.905 --> 01:10:58.195
plugins and shit like that or whatever.

01:10:58.345 --> 01:11:03.125
But as he ever said, like, go use a
page builder to build your website

01:11:03.155 --> 01:11:04.795
or like go use something else.

01:11:04.835 --> 01:11:08.765
Like, I feel like it's, it's never,
the third party is mentioned.

01:11:09.650 --> 01:11:13.220
I could be completely wrong, but is, has
the third party ecosystem, which is the

01:11:13.220 --> 01:11:17.990
vast majority of those avatars that you're
talking about in some ways, like, is that

01:11:18.270 --> 01:11:24.720
ever brought up to that extent or is it
always just like core Gutenberg, very

01:11:24.720 --> 01:11:28.200
extensible, which are all good points, but
they just don't, when you're talking about

01:11:28.210 --> 01:11:31.090
like an actual market strategy for those
different avatars, it's not going to hit

01:11:31.120 --> 01:11:34.140
everyone exactly just with those points.

01:11:34.830 --> 01:11:35.510
Then that makes sense.

01:11:35.915 --> 01:11:37.295
Matt: Yeah, no, it does.

01:11:37.365 --> 01:11:40.225
Um, and that's why I say it can't be done.

01:11:41.855 --> 01:11:44.255
So this is, that's a perfect reason
why it can't be done through the

01:11:44.255 --> 01:11:45.895
official make channels, right?

01:11:45.905 --> 01:11:50.335
So if anyone's, I guess this is
just my opinion, but if folks are

01:11:50.335 --> 01:11:53.995
thinking, oh, we'll make a new, make
marketing technically and emotionally,

01:11:53.995 --> 01:11:54.665
I don't think it's going to happen.

01:11:55.455 --> 01:11:56.835
It shouldn't, it shouldn't
happen because you're going

01:11:56.835 --> 01:11:57.975
to run into these same things.

01:11:58.575 --> 01:12:01.125
Um, No, it's never been done before.

01:12:01.395 --> 01:12:04.175
Again, because marketing and the
WordPress stuff hasn't really ever

01:12:04.175 --> 01:12:05.255
been able to get off the ground.

01:12:05.295 --> 01:12:07.265
I mean, they just sat
on the runway for years.

01:12:08.535 --> 01:12:11.565
Um, I pulled up the WordPress.

01:12:11.565 --> 01:12:12.135
com site.

01:12:13.075 --> 01:12:15.135
Because again, I look for these
canaries in the coal mine of,

01:12:15.285 --> 01:12:17.665
of how we get these indicators.

01:12:17.675 --> 01:12:19.785
I, I know we want to talk
to people all the time.

01:12:19.805 --> 01:12:22.755
I, you know, have built a career
on theorycrafting this stuff.

01:12:23.265 --> 01:12:25.905
And they've actually
updated, uh, the wordpress.

01:12:25.905 --> 01:12:26.295
com site.

01:12:26.355 --> 01:12:27.895
Because I often look at the wordpress.

01:12:27.895 --> 01:12:30.475
com site to see what their
marketing message is.

01:12:30.475 --> 01:12:34.015
Because, you know, there is
no official marketing team.

01:12:34.015 --> 01:12:37.755
And if one is to guess what Automatic
is thinking about marketing WordPress,

01:12:37.755 --> 01:12:38.745
Well, you look at wordpress.

01:12:38.745 --> 01:12:42.830
com and how they're positioning, um,
How they're positioning WordPress.

01:12:43.330 --> 01:12:48.110
I used to really poke fun at WordPress.

01:12:48.110 --> 01:12:51.790
com homepage because it, I'll
have to go to the archive.

01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:52.810
I probably should do that.

01:12:53.100 --> 01:12:56.440
So I'm not doing like a Joe Rogan and
just saying shit and it's not real.

01:12:57.330 --> 01:13:01.400
Um, but it, it used to just say
something like WordPress your way

01:13:01.400 --> 01:13:02.850
and maybe kind of close to this.

01:13:02.850 --> 01:13:04.170
Like WordPress without limits.

01:13:05.020 --> 01:13:09.570
That still means that the user
landing here knows what WordPress is.

01:13:10.690 --> 01:13:11.050
Right?

01:13:11.290 --> 01:13:13.790
Like the, like if somebody's
like, I want to build a website,

01:13:13.790 --> 01:13:14.750
you say, go to wordpress.

01:13:14.750 --> 01:13:16.900
com, and you go, okay,
they go to wordpress.

01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:17.420
without limits.

01:13:18.280 --> 01:13:23.020
But I want to build a bakery website
Right that doesn't speak that doesn't

01:13:23.020 --> 01:13:25.350
speak to let's take a look at Wix.

01:13:25.350 --> 01:13:27.410
com create a website without limits

01:13:31.280 --> 01:13:35.090
Hilarious I'm gonna have to assume Wix.

01:13:35.090 --> 01:13:35.670
Oh, man.

01:13:36.010 --> 01:13:39.750
What an amazing thing that we just
discovered live even though we're just

01:13:39.750 --> 01:13:43.525
amazing Um, so WordPress without limits.

01:13:43.795 --> 01:13:45.385
Uh, create a website without limits.

01:13:46.055 --> 01:13:46.925
This is 100%.

01:13:47.225 --> 01:13:50.695
Yeah, I mean, squarespace.

01:13:50.725 --> 01:13:52.355
com I will cry, I will cry.

01:13:53.085 --> 01:13:53.855
Designed to sell.

01:13:53.885 --> 01:13:55.115
That's so weird.

01:13:55.235 --> 01:13:58.145
Right, which is going, that's, that's,
that's Squarespace saying They're

01:13:58.145 --> 01:13:59.495
going after, they're going after Shopify.

01:13:59.495 --> 01:14:01.205
Matt: Yeah, they're going after Shopify.

01:14:01.225 --> 01:14:04.805
They're going after the customer
that's going to have the most value.

01:14:05.530 --> 01:14:07.120
They're not saying, I don't
care about these people who

01:14:07.120 --> 01:14:08.460
want to build a stupid website.

01:14:08.870 --> 01:14:11.350
I want a, I want a customer who's
going to sell stuff because that's

01:14:11.350 --> 01:14:13.410
going to be my best, my best customer.

01:14:13.900 --> 01:14:15.630
Um, and then Shopify.

01:14:15.900 --> 01:14:16.140
Oops.

01:14:18.870 --> 01:14:19.590
That's amazing.

01:14:20.280 --> 01:14:21.610
Matt: Making commerce better for everyone.

01:14:22.640 --> 01:14:22.910
Wow.

01:14:23.610 --> 01:14:26.537
Matt: You know, and this is
the thing, like, so right here.

01:14:26.537 --> 01:14:31.476
And, you know, any, any marketer
worth their salt knows this.

01:14:31.476 --> 01:14:31.925
Shopify.

01:14:32.875 --> 01:14:34.985
Humans, humans doing things right here.

01:14:35.055 --> 01:14:38.395
When you look at Squarespace and Wix
ads, it's humans doing something.

01:14:38.405 --> 01:14:42.525
It's never about, Hey, look at this cool
tool of dragging and dropping stuff.

01:14:42.545 --> 01:14:46.345
It's humans doing stuff with our
software that with the end result, right?

01:14:46.515 --> 01:14:47.945
I'm building my business.

01:14:47.955 --> 01:14:49.285
Here's stories about my business.

01:14:49.525 --> 01:14:54.135
This is that human factor that I'm
urging this future coalition to go after.

01:14:55.735 --> 01:14:55.995
are you

01:14:55.995 --> 01:14:58.315
saying though that the
coalition is outside?

01:14:59.530 --> 01:15:05.380
It's a, it's a completely external
thing because it has, I think that

01:15:05.390 --> 01:15:09.730
it has, I think it's, it does solve
certain problems, but obviously

01:15:11.810 --> 01:15:14.570
if we're talking money, if we go back
to the money thing, like, is that

01:15:14.570 --> 01:15:19.360
something that like automatic would be
interested in like sponsoring extern?

01:15:19.400 --> 01:15:23.120
I don't know how that structure actually
ever works or is that something that

01:15:23.120 --> 01:15:26.705
like, like Again, we've, we've had
recent live streams, like where does

01:15:26.705 --> 01:15:27.965
the, is there a budget for that?

01:15:27.975 --> 01:15:32.355
Or is that going to end up
being like, uh, that the, it

01:15:32.365 --> 01:15:34.005
makes money for itself somehow?

01:15:35.655 --> 01:15:38.925
Matt: Number one, this is just
like a, an idea that Miriam came up

01:15:38.925 --> 01:15:42.005
with, uh, or Miriam and the group
came up with on that phone call.

01:15:42.275 --> 01:15:45.115
Who knows if this is actually
going to come to fruition.

01:15:45.115 --> 01:15:48.585
And if it is, it's going to take, you
know, months, if not, uh, almost a year.

01:15:48.605 --> 01:15:52.605
This is why I think the creators should,
we should come up with something.

01:15:53.610 --> 01:15:59.530
More concrete to offer, um, because
it does get like really murky, uh,

01:15:59.530 --> 01:16:04.800
this way where, uh, if you have, you
know, Elementor putting in 5, 000 bucks

01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:08.200
and somebody coming in and putting
in 500 bucks, like whose message,

01:16:08.540 --> 01:16:11.360
you know, dominates that where I
think if like three or four creators

01:16:11.410 --> 01:16:15.110
came together and said, Hey, look,
we get this great idea for a series.

01:16:15.460 --> 01:16:20.000
And everybody puts in X, Y, Z amount of
dollars, and it's all just presented by

01:16:20.040 --> 01:16:23.090
Elementor, Barn2Plugins, Gravity Forms.

01:16:23.090 --> 01:16:27.150
It's just way cleaner, I think,
of a deal to do it that way than a

01:16:27.150 --> 01:16:30.060
consortium trying to like, figure
out where to spend ad revenue.

01:16:30.560 --> 01:16:35.490
Um, but anyway, I, the point is, is like,
just a little germ of an idea right now,

01:16:35.550 --> 01:16:42.750
and I think if it is to expand, it should
live outside of, the Make WordPress

01:16:43.230 --> 01:16:46.600
marketing team, because technically I
don't think it's available, and two,

01:16:47.280 --> 01:16:51.410
uh, I don't, uh, I think it'll just run
up into the same limitations if it's

01:16:51.430 --> 01:16:54.120
part of the open source initiative.

01:16:54.580 --> 01:16:59.060
Many people aren't gonna like that
for those reasons, but, um, I think

01:16:59.060 --> 01:17:00.450
that's the only way it's gonna succeed.

01:17:01.800 --> 01:17:03.570
Yeah, I mean, I'd be interested
in talking about more of that,

01:17:03.570 --> 01:17:04.840
but we can kind of wrap up.

01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:07.560
My only thing would be, my two
questions would be, how does it look

01:17:07.560 --> 01:17:12.685
like actually I want to say like entity
wise, but like, what would that be?

01:17:12.685 --> 01:17:14.155
Like, it's, it's totally different thing.

01:17:14.365 --> 01:17:17.495
I mean, I was kidding about the, the,
you know, the players association type

01:17:17.495 --> 01:17:20.315
thing, but that kind of actually seems
somewhat synonymous to an extent.

01:17:20.735 --> 01:17:24.475
But, um, and, but the other thing is like,
well, how do you, what do you message?

01:17:24.525 --> 01:17:26.435
Like what, there's gotta
still be a message there.

01:17:26.445 --> 01:17:28.375
Cause that's this problem
we're trying to solve.

01:17:28.845 --> 01:17:29.075
Yeah.

01:17:29.105 --> 01:17:30.875
So like, is it just
like WordPress is great.

01:17:32.155 --> 01:17:34.725
Like, you know, cause
yeah, you know, that's what

01:17:34.725 --> 01:17:34.985
Matt: I mean.

01:17:35.005 --> 01:17:35.725
Yeah, that's what I mean.

01:17:35.725 --> 01:17:39.185
Like you, it has to be boots on the
ground, building a strategy for the

01:17:39.195 --> 01:17:43.545
different avatars of WordPress user,
which there are might be like, I don't

01:17:43.545 --> 01:17:47.635
know, maybe six to a dozen big ways.

01:17:48.085 --> 01:17:50.005
It could be, it could be for everyone.

01:17:50.005 --> 01:17:51.305
Like WordPress is for everyone.

01:17:51.305 --> 01:17:54.565
Like, well, there's definitely
ways to poke holes in that.

01:17:54.565 --> 01:17:56.805
You could say that, but
you can't stop there.

01:17:56.875 --> 01:17:58.705
Like you have to like say
WordPress for everyone.

01:17:58.715 --> 01:18:00.005
And then like have, like you said, like.

01:18:01.065 --> 01:18:07.585
multiple different avatars that you
could immediately say, basically

01:18:07.635 --> 01:18:11.495
pick one, pick one of these that
defines you and we'll tell you exactly

01:18:11.495 --> 01:18:14.165
how you would, not exactly how you
would run WordPress, but like how

01:18:14.165 --> 01:18:15.725
people like you would use WordPress.

01:18:15.915 --> 01:18:16.095
Yeah.

01:18:16.145 --> 01:18:17.215
That's gotta be how it is.

01:18:17.345 --> 01:18:19.085
And I'm not sure why that's not happened.

01:18:19.085 --> 01:18:22.085
I it's probably gotta be just because
it's more of like a laissez faire.

01:18:22.455 --> 01:18:24.765
Like we're not gonna, we're
not gonna dive into this at all

01:18:24.765 --> 01:18:25.855
and tell you guys what to do.

01:18:26.055 --> 01:18:27.675
Like this is just, this is what it is.

01:18:27.825 --> 01:18:29.675
Like just, just, It's really great.

01:18:29.685 --> 01:18:30.345
Just trust us.

01:18:30.645 --> 01:18:32.395
Go in there and just,
you know, fuck around.

01:18:32.395 --> 01:18:32.925
Yeah, but where do you

01:18:32.925 --> 01:18:34.065
Matt: put, so that's the thing.

01:18:34.265 --> 01:18:37.195
So where do you put that messaging?

01:18:37.435 --> 01:18:40.665
So I have a video coming out that
Brian Kordes and I recorded yesterday,

01:18:41.445 --> 01:18:43.225
which you should really enjoy.

01:18:43.885 --> 01:18:49.985
We broke out a whole bunch, so it'll
be, no, this video will be live.

01:18:50.325 --> 01:18:56.805
Our video that we're recording right now
will be live before the Brian episode.

01:18:56.825 --> 01:18:59.365
So it's, Here's all the topics we covered.

01:18:59.645 --> 01:19:03.635
Open Source, GPL, WordPress Beginnings
Evolution, Matt Mullenweg, Automatic,

01:19:03.655 --> 01:19:04.845
Automatic Products, WordPress.

01:19:04.845 --> 01:19:07.245
com, WPCloud, WordPress.

01:19:07.245 --> 01:19:10.785
org, Openverse, Five for the Future,
Audrey Capital, WP Tavern, Jose De

01:19:10.785 --> 01:19:15.935
Jampolsi, WordPress Foundation, WordCamps
and Meetups, Core Contributors, GitHub

01:19:15.955 --> 01:19:18.315
Make vs Slack, WooThemes, and WooCommerce.

01:19:18.705 --> 01:19:22.545
We went through every single
one of those, and broke it out,

01:19:22.615 --> 01:19:24.515
um, as far as we understand it.

01:19:24.555 --> 01:19:25.705
And we still didn't.

01:19:26.220 --> 01:19:29.710
Touch on a lot of different
areas, uh, for WordPress.

01:19:30.200 --> 01:19:33.370
But we broke down like everything we
knew about those different things.

01:19:33.610 --> 01:19:34.760
And when you look at wordpress.

01:19:34.760 --> 01:19:37.950
org, you're like, once we started
breaking it apart, there's a

01:19:37.950 --> 01:19:39.740
shit ton of stuff on wordpress.

01:19:39.740 --> 01:19:42.120
org tons of stuff.

01:19:42.800 --> 01:19:43.400
Tons.

01:19:43.620 --> 01:19:46.280
I mean, open verse five for
the future, all this stuff.

01:19:46.570 --> 01:19:51.520
Um, you know, your profiles, your
forums, uh, the photo directory, there's

01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:53.260
just like so much stuff on that site.

01:19:53.450 --> 01:19:56.650
So if you have a marketing team,
where, where's the centralized

01:19:56.700 --> 01:20:01.040
messaging that goes out for a open
source contributing marketing team?

01:20:01.170 --> 01:20:02.610
There isn't one, right?

01:20:02.610 --> 01:20:03.610
Which is the challenge.

01:20:03.700 --> 01:20:07.160
And if there is, if you say
it's the homepage of wordpress.

01:20:07.160 --> 01:20:11.760
org, well, that is running up
a hill because you now have to.

01:20:12.665 --> 01:20:16.055
Ask the powers that be
to make those changes.

01:20:16.475 --> 01:20:20.365
And that is a very sensitive
page for the overall project.

01:20:20.515 --> 01:20:23.775
So it was Matt going to just say yes to
a bunch of volunteers that go, Hey, I got

01:20:23.775 --> 01:20:25.215
some great ideas for our homepage now.

01:20:25.795 --> 01:20:26.615
Probably not.

01:20:27.565 --> 01:20:28.695
I don't blame them either.

01:20:30.065 --> 01:20:30.405
You know?

01:20:30.405 --> 01:20:32.395
So where do you put out
that centralized messaging?

01:20:34.015 --> 01:20:34.795
One idea.

01:20:35.295 --> 01:20:38.495
So, and look, when you start bringing
groups of people in and you start

01:20:38.495 --> 01:20:41.655
talking about money, it's going to
freaking make this thing go so slow.

01:20:42.715 --> 01:20:44.585
Cause everyone's going to
want to say, rightfully so.

01:20:45.265 --> 01:20:48.055
Everyone's going to need to, you
know, read the room, figure out who's

01:20:48.055 --> 01:20:49.255
going to get what out of this deal.

01:20:49.475 --> 01:20:50.685
How much is this going to cost?

01:20:50.805 --> 01:20:52.105
Who's going to wrangle the money?

01:20:52.185 --> 01:20:53.315
How are we going to account for it?

01:20:53.805 --> 01:21:00.875
One of the easiest things that people can
do is come up with this, um, solidified

01:21:00.875 --> 01:21:05.425
message, like you're saying, like
maybe WordPress is great at the start.

01:21:06.660 --> 01:21:10.770
And we adopt that into your five for
the, the things that already exist.

01:21:10.780 --> 01:21:14.320
Like when I evaluate a problem,
what structures already exist

01:21:14.360 --> 01:21:15.630
that we can leverage now?

01:21:15.700 --> 01:21:16.470
Are they useful?

01:21:16.500 --> 01:21:17.210
Yes or no?

01:21:17.270 --> 01:21:20.650
And then if yes, let's use the
stuff we already have in place

01:21:20.780 --> 01:21:23.700
so we're not creating a whole new
wheel like a marketing coalition.

01:21:24.250 --> 01:21:27.480
So you could say, you know what,
there's a new thing we're coming

01:21:27.480 --> 01:21:29.000
up with for five for the future.

01:21:29.640 --> 01:21:30.480
Everybody writes.

01:21:31.430 --> 01:21:35.450
A blog post about why WordPress is
great or what WordPress means to me.

01:21:35.660 --> 01:21:37.460
So does everyone buy into this?

01:21:37.490 --> 01:21:39.160
How many of you out there buy into this?

01:21:39.370 --> 01:21:41.760
20 of you, two of you, a hundred of you.

01:21:42.230 --> 01:21:46.440
If so, one, one day out of the
month, you all write a blog post

01:21:46.450 --> 01:21:47.780
about why WordPress is great.

01:21:49.050 --> 01:21:52.200
That's how we're giving back to
the marketing wheel without money

01:21:52.410 --> 01:21:53.640
and without muddying the waters.

01:21:53.670 --> 01:21:59.630
And it lives inside five for the
future, a structure that already exists.

01:22:00.010 --> 01:22:04.060
Next month, write a blog post about
why WordPress is great for e commerce.

01:22:04.510 --> 01:22:10.040
And we're all just pledging to
amplifying and making WordPress thrive.

01:22:13.470 --> 01:22:14.020
That's what I got.

01:22:14.830 --> 01:22:15.360
Interesting.

01:22:16.040 --> 01:22:18.920
Um, I mean, it's an idea.

01:22:21.110 --> 01:22:22.720
I don't know if there's no money in this.

01:22:22.760 --> 01:22:23.560
I don't want to hear it.

01:22:23.730 --> 01:22:26.230
Well, honestly, I mean, I was kind
of going that route, but like, I

01:22:26.230 --> 01:22:29.270
mean, I don't know who we have to
run this, what we would have to run

01:22:29.270 --> 01:22:30.880
that by nothing for the five for the

01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:31.240
Matt: future.

01:22:31.250 --> 01:22:32.090
That's the great thing.

01:22:32.210 --> 01:22:37.070
So there's no, it's just a call, a call
to action and say, who wants to do it?

01:22:37.990 --> 01:22:40.610
Everybody pledge your time this month.

01:22:40.690 --> 01:22:41.810
And then, yeah, okay.

01:22:41.860 --> 01:22:45.885
Maybe it takes somebody like you and
me to, Just from a, a promotional

01:22:45.885 --> 01:22:48.935
purpose, like, okay, on this, we're
tracking all these blog posts.

01:22:48.935 --> 01:22:50.975
Here's all the cool people
who contributed to this idea.

01:22:51.655 --> 01:22:52.805
Maybe that's something that we can do.

01:22:55.385 --> 01:22:59.085
I mean, I don't know, haven't really
thought about it, just heard it.

01:22:59.325 --> 01:23:02.315
But, I, I would, I would question
like, Not everything has to

01:23:02.325 --> 01:23:04.030
Matt: result in, in profit, Mark.

01:23:04.820 --> 01:23:05.810
No, that's not it.

01:23:05.830 --> 01:23:07.790
You just gotta, you just
gotta make money somehow.

01:23:07.790 --> 01:23:10.330
I mean, cause you got to live because
you can't do everything for free.

01:23:10.340 --> 01:23:14.580
So like, how do you, how, what, what,
but regardless of the money thing,

01:23:14.590 --> 01:23:18.800
that's one concern, where does that,
how does that tangibly move the needle?

01:23:19.740 --> 01:23:25.830
Matt: Well, you have a lot more, again,
you have to remember this is not, you

01:23:25.830 --> 01:23:28.280
could also make the case if all of a
sudden five companies came together,

01:23:28.280 --> 01:23:33.300
raise a hundred thousand dollars and
put a hundred thousand dollars out into.

01:23:34.720 --> 01:23:36.460
advertising and content, right?

01:23:36.470 --> 01:23:38.260
Like, how, how does that move the needle?

01:23:38.840 --> 01:23:43.740
Um, I think that because this is a, a
lower barrier to entry, like, we're just

01:23:43.770 --> 01:23:49.030
asking everyone this month for the part
of your Five for the Future of Marketing

01:23:49.030 --> 01:23:53.990
WordPress to write about your, you know,
the first time you ever used WordPress.

01:23:54.140 --> 01:23:58.080
Let's just, I'm just using that as a topic
idea, but hey, everyone that's involved

01:23:58.080 --> 01:24:02.120
with this, to AMP WordPress, write about
your first time experiencing WordPress.

01:24:02.910 --> 01:24:05.400
And everybody, and they get like
20 different stories out there.

01:24:05.550 --> 01:24:08.140
Just 20 more chances of impact.

01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:12.450
Next month it's, let's talk about why
WordPress is great for the e commerce.

01:24:12.600 --> 01:24:14.480
Everybody writes one blog, like minimally.

01:24:14.540 --> 01:24:17.480
Like we're just, we're just
minimally just setting the bar

01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:19.350
to say, just at least do this.

01:24:19.380 --> 01:24:22.940
Like if we want to improve marketing
before we get to consortiums and

01:24:22.950 --> 01:24:25.670
who's got the money and who gets
what, let's just start with that man.

01:24:25.850 --> 01:24:26.930
Let's get this message out there.

01:24:27.540 --> 01:24:28.490
And just see how that goes.

01:24:28.540 --> 01:24:30.150
And see how many people are
actually bought into this.

01:24:30.680 --> 01:24:32.030
If it amplifies, it amplifies.

01:24:32.030 --> 01:24:33.300
If it doesn't, you know, it doesn't.

01:24:33.860 --> 01:24:36.770
Um, it's just an easier
takeoff in my opinion.

01:24:37.580 --> 01:24:37.830
Yeah.

01:24:38.240 --> 01:24:41.420
I mean, I personally would be much more
willing to make a video than write.

01:24:41.480 --> 01:24:42.000
Well, whatever.

01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:45.220
I mean, yeah, but I mean, I don't know.

01:24:45.240 --> 01:24:45.890
That's an idea.

01:24:45.900 --> 01:24:48.180
I would, I'd love to get
other opinions on that.

01:24:48.180 --> 01:24:49.730
So if you guys are
listening, you let me know.

01:24:49.780 --> 01:24:56.440
Um, but yeah, I mean, I don't know.

01:24:57.490 --> 01:24:58.580
We'll, we'll workshop that.

01:24:58.580 --> 01:25:00.920
We'll think maybe we'll run that off
the flagpole to some, I don't know.

01:25:01.970 --> 01:25:02.790
Matt: He's Mark Zemanski.

01:25:02.800 --> 01:25:04.280
You can find him at markzemanski.

01:25:04.310 --> 01:25:05.300
co, mjs.

01:25:05.320 --> 01:25:05.770
bio.

01:25:05.770 --> 01:25:07.730
He's got a bunch of websites launching.

01:25:07.730 --> 01:25:08.740
He's got a YouTube channel.

01:25:08.740 --> 01:25:11.850
His number one course is 100 percent free.

01:25:12.280 --> 01:25:15.070
If you want to learn about
dynamic WordPress data.

01:25:15.470 --> 01:25:15.760
Right?

01:25:15.980 --> 01:25:18.340
You go to Mark's YouTube channel.

01:25:18.630 --> 01:25:20.660
Again, you can find the links at mjs.

01:25:20.660 --> 01:25:21.180
bio.

01:25:21.510 --> 01:25:23.770
Um, we're always asking for
money here at the WP Minute.

01:25:24.080 --> 01:25:27.910
If you want to support us and sponsor
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01:25:27.910 --> 01:25:30.400
WordPress, head on over to the WPMinute.

01:25:30.400 --> 01:25:31.150
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01:25:31.150 --> 01:25:33.940
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people, just over a hundred, who talk
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01:25:37.430 --> 01:25:39.360
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01:25:42.235 --> 01:25:43.565
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It's worth a coffee.

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If that in this day and
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01:26:08.485 --> 01:26:11.635
You'll eventually see us in the next
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01:26:11.635 --> 01:26:14.175
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