Rob: Hello and welcome, dear listeners, to Subspace Radio.
It is me, Rob.
Kevin: And it's me, Kevin.
Rob: And we are back!
A new episode of Star Trek is out there in the ether, so we are back to talk
about Discovery season 5, episode 3.
Kevin: Jinaal.
Rob: We are returning to Trill.
Uh, we've already been there once before in Discovery, which
I will go so far to say one of my favourite episodes of Discovery.
There are very few of them.
Kevin: Oh was it, now?
Rob: Yeah, there was, there was some good elements to it from what I can remember
when I watched it all those years ago.
I liked some elements of how they represented the Trill culture and
definitely how the past lives and personalities of the Trill hosts sort of
like unify together to become a community.
I love those type of elements, so that was something I was not
expecting and got me a bit emotional.
But, uh, I have not done a recent re watch like you.
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, the short version of it is, I think it was maybe just a
little, it leaned a little too far into the, the mysticism that sometimes, you
know, plagues alien cultures in Star Trek.
When they get into those pools on Trill and they're trying to reconnect
Adira with their past hosts, in the Tal symbiont, the scenes that take
place in that milky bath are, for me, a little too fantastical and magical.
They get sucked under the water and like Burnham jumps in and she, she's
like, where, where has she gone?
Uh, because Adira was still going by she back then.
She's like swooshing through the water and it's like Adira's body vanished into
the milk, is what we are given to believe.
There's this weird sphere that cracks that is supposed to
indicate that Adira is in trouble.
And then they go under the water, like, Burnham also disappears into
the milk, strangely, and then they're in this world of CG filaments that
is very eye popping, and I enjoyed it like I enjoy a, uh, an expensively
produced CG cutscene in a video game.
It lost all connection with the science in science fiction to me at that point.
And coming back to this week's episode, I thought they like revisited all the
same kind of, uh, fascinating alien culture stuff that you said you enjoyed
about that old episode, but they took it back a notch in the magic department.
Rob: Very much so.
Yeah, I love the, um, I actually, yeah, I love the Trill culture.
I really do.
It's, it's something, because I am a Doctor Who fan, it's Star
Trek's version of Doctor Who.
It
Kevin: yeah, it sure is.
Rob: I could see the only way they could justify it is the Doctor Who
type of magic of regeneration is to do it in this most complex of
scientific ways with the Trills.
Kevin: And that's what we're going to explore on this week's episode
of Substance Radio, is the Trill, particularly memorable joined Trill.
Um, we said memorable Rob, but when I went looking, there's
not actually that many of them.
We can get through them all, I think.
Rob: Yeah, like, um, I, I, I spent a lot of my research and stuff just
looking at past Dax incarnations and just how fascinating all,
like, I think there's about eleven.
Uh, incarnations of Dax in one way, shape or form.
But yes, so they return to Trill and this episode is very Indiana Jones.
It's very adventure, solve the puzzle to get to the next clue, to get to
this, the high adventure aspects of it.
So much so, when their ambassador from Trill appears, they can only communicate
further if the riddle is solved.
And of course Burnham's the only one who solves the riddle.
Uh, to give them access to, you know, to get onto Trill, which I find hilarious.
And there's more
Kevin: that is one of those things that I enjoyed it as well, and at
the same time was conscious that I shouldn't think about this too much.
Just go with it, is what, like, there was a voice in my
head saying, just go with it.
To me, this is a, more than most Discovery episodes, this is a
classic Star Trek episode structure.
It felt like an episode of The Next Generation from
the, the 80s and 90s to me.
It had three plots, none of which were strong enough or well enough
executed that they would have carried an episode on their own, but somehow
together by constantly cutting between them, they kept my interest.
And the overall sense was just comfort food for me, like this was
not a great episode of Star Trek, this is not a terrible episode of
Star Trek, it was one that I could just feel like, oh yeah, I'm home.
This is, this is Star Trek when it is normal.
Rob: Yeah.
It felt very normal.
I mean, did we have three or do we have, I'm trying to like, or do we
Kevin: Yeah, if you count Adira and Grey breaking up on Trill, that's maybe
a fourth, but I would call that, like, uh, plot A 1 instead of just, uh, A.
Yeah.
Rob: Yes.
So basically we had the main plot which, well, main plot I'm doing in
inverted commas of trying to find the next piece of this puzzle that will
lead them to the, um, uh, to, you know, the technology to save all technology
Kevin: As we X Files fans used to call it, the mythology thread.
Rob: Damn right, damn right.
Uh, we also had, um, Saru going through his, um,
Kevin: Saru's back.
Guess what?
Saru's still on the show.
Rob: After all our talk last week, is he gone?
Is he out?
Nope, he's there.
He's right there.
Kevin: He's just got a new job.
Rob: Yep, his growing pains of getting used to being an ambassador
and how that works with his new relationship and how they communicate
and how they respond to stressful situations or tension within their
relationship, which was quite adorable.
Kevin: And then, uh, Rayner's one on ones on the ship with Tilly.
Rob: Rayner's one on ones, and then also the, uh, uh, sub subplot, sub
plot, doing my Jack Black there, of, um, yeah, the breakup of our
two young star crossed lovers.
Kevin: For me, the highlight of this episode was Wilson Cruz
playing Jinaal, uh, embodied.
Rob: Yes, so this is the A plot where they have to go back to Trill because
the only way that the clues will be given if they go through some ancient
Trill ceremony where that persona is passed on into a willing host, just
the persona, not the actual symbiont that stays within, uh, the present
Kevin: Yeah, in a ritual, the Zhian'tara ritual, which has been seen
twice before, once in a classic DS9 episode called Facets, where we got
to meet all of Dax's previous hosts.
Rob: You're going to see me talking about that a lot.
Kevin: And, uh, the other one, we saw it recently in Discovery in Choose to
Live, which I think may have been the very next episode after you gave up
on Season 4, and that's the one where they put Gray into an artificial body.
So if you're wondering who this Gray is, or, I guess you got to
meet Gray, but last time you knew Gray, Gray was not in physical form.
They performed a Zhian'tara ritual to unjoin Gray from the Tal
symbiont and, uh, put them in a Dr.
Soong style golem, they call it.
But uh, uh, an artificial body just like Picard has.
Rob: A Picard body, yeah.
So yes, I was aware that, um, yeah, Gray was, could only be seen by Adira.
Kevin: Not anymore Gray's walking around and talking around now.
Rob: has, uh, has been given a body and, um, so I, I just saw that and went,
alright, okay, so something happened.
Kevin: Yeah, stuff, stuff happened.
That's right.
Well, it was a Zhian'tara ritual that happened.
Rob: Bless them.
Um, so yes, we had our doctor go around with this ancient personality Trill,
and taking them to the location of the next clue, but little did they
know, um, Burnham and Book have, are going through a trial of their
own to see whether they are worthy enough to receive this, uh, next clue.
Because this clue could change the face of the universe.
Kevin: Yeah, lots of, uh, lots of hijinks.
What's a season of Star Trek without a walk through a
strangely lit quarry, you know?
Uh, we get those every now and then and we are fulfilling our quota this season.
Um, some of this stuff felt a little padded out to me, like the,
do we go on three or after three?
How many times?
It just in Star Trek, have we seen that, that scene and, and those scenes were
also like, they were going slow for me.
It seemed like they were performing them slow.
Like they had time to fill in the episode.
I don't know if you felt the same way, but some, some of that stuff,
I was kind of like, okay, maybe I'm just getting old, but I've,
I've heard these gags 10 times now.
Um, it doesn't feel fresh to me anymore.
But what I did enjoy was Jinaal's retelling of the history of the group of
scientists that came together after The Chase in Star Trek: The Next Generation
and worked across cultures, across species to research and ultimately
find the technology of the Progenitors.
Rob: Yeah, it was a, I mean, the whole, that whole sequence was very much reminded
me of that episode of the animated series we watched when they went back
to Vulcan and you find out, oh, okay, Vulcan has big, giant, pet tigers and
all these huge creatures that run around and where they're going, alright, so
Trill's the same, they've got these huge
Kevin: It's got cloaking bees that spit
Rob: Yes, okay, this is our reality now, okay, um.
But I did enjoy the end of it when they finally, you know, went
the high moral ground and said they'd come back later and they
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: creatures.
That's Star Trek.
It's not about force.
It's about heart and mind.
And to have that beautiful moment with Jinaal sitting there just enjoying that
sunset for the final time or enjoying that breath when, uh, that was quite beautiful.
Kevin: And playing such a, a distinct and yet still very charismatic
and fleshed out character.
Like I really enjoyed Wilson Cruz flexing his acting muscles in a
way that I hadn't seen before.
Um, yeah.
Enjoyable.
Rob: Wilson Cruz was, uh, exceptional in this episode.
One of my big, I've talked about him before, Matt Baume is a great, pop
culture, um, YouTuber and stuff like that.
And he's at the moment going through My So-Called Life, the Claire Danes show
from the 90s and Jared Leto was on that.
And Cruz was on that TV show, he got one of his big breaks on, uh, on
that, so I saw a young version of him running around, I'm going, there we
go, the Doctor, in different timelines.
Um, but he was, he was exceptional in this episode, shifting characters
so simply, and um, beautifully.
Kevin: Ultimately what we learn is that they discovered this technology at a
time where the Dominion War was raging.
And they made the decision that the galaxy or the, the, you know, the evolved
species of the alpha and beta quadrants are not ready for this technology.
They, they're not able to use it responsibly.
If it gets out now, it will be misused as a tool of war.
So we're going to put it in a time capsule with a bunch of riddles locking it and
someone someday will be worthy of this.
And here we have Book and Burnham kind of being asked a bunch of questions
about, that amount to, are you worthy?
And I really, I liked that moment where he turned to Burnham and
said, you don't look so sure.
And she said, look, it is a time of peace, but progress isn't linear.
I can't say it'll last.
I liked the shades of grey of that.
At the same time, we are 800, 900, 1,000 years, I forget the exact number,
into the future from that Dominion War.
But I, I mean, I look at what we know of Starfleet and the Federation and the rest
of the galaxy in this time, and I'm, I ask myself, is it really that different?
Like, is the only practical difference that there isn't a war raging?
Is that the only reason that they're going to let this technology out, or are
we meant to believe that humanity has leapt some significant hurdle of evolution
that makes them worthy now in a way that they weren't in the 24th century?
Because I feel like Captain Picard could have answered those 20
questions in the quarry just as effectively as Book and Burnham.
Um, what are we meant to believe has changed in the galaxy?
I'm not really sure.
Rob: And we haven't really, you know, seen it that much.
I mean, I've already, I've watched, you know, I've watched
the full season of their first.
time in the future.
I've obviously skipped season four.
Um, yeah, so I, I haven't seen as much of a clear distinction apart
from how they treat technology.
I haven't seen that full evolution into to find any evidence that they have
evolved to the point where they are ready and not just, you know, the same type
of stuff they do in regular Star Trek, just with a different star date on it.
Kevin: Well, I mean, for, for the record, having seen that, that season that you
haven't, nothing happened there that convinced me that this is a particularly
evolved, enlightened time for the galaxy.
So in that sense, I mean, if that's what's going through Burnham's head in that
moment, I kind of like that, that doubt.
And I wonder if it, if it's going to play into how this, how
this season eventually resolves.
Rob: We can, we can, but only hope.
Kevin: Hmm.
The one on ones with Raynor were hilarious.
Rob: I loved them for the same reason I adored Pike coming
in at the start of season two.
Where he pretty much came in and said, I don't know any of you, tell me your names.
Kevin: He was so much nicer about it though.
Rob: But for me it was also that case of, I've mentioned it many times
before, Star Trek works as an ensemble.
Kevin: Right.
So, getting to meet some of these characters as an audience,
Rob: Yeah, the original series was very much our three leads,
and the rest were supporting.
Next Gen was very much shaped as an ensemble, and through the course of
the seven years, the sort of like, the importance shifted because of
the performances and the writing, so, and Deep Space Nine was very ensemble
as well as was Voyager, but this has been very much, you know, as I've
said many times before, Burnham's show and everybody else is supporting.
So, I enjoyed Pike coming in being very nice and going, Introduce me to all of
this crew that we've known for a year, but we don't know any of their names.
And so to have a more, you know, mean version of it come in.
For me, it also knocked out the smugness of Discovery.
Of the Discovery cast going, yeah, we're great, we're cool, we're
awesome, we're amazing, we're brilliant, we get on so well.
Kevin: Let me tell you about my hobbies.
Rob: Yeah, let's just, let's talk about this.
And Tilly there going, yeah, we're all really cool.
And he's going, I don't really care.
I like the outsider coming in going, you're not all that,
Kevin: Yeah.
And, and, and, I'll also agree with you that this also, despite that more cynical
lens on it, some of the glimpses of these characters that we got were intriguing,
like some of these people I thought, wow, you know, you've been standing there
for four seasons, and I just see now, you're an awesome actor, and I would,
I would love to see a story about you.
Rob: This is what we talked about last week about the way that storytelling
has shifted, how we consume media has shifted so much that we do not
have 24 episodes a season anymore.
So, those arcs of characters, that familiarity is gone and we have to
connect with characters so much quicker.
But that's a, that is a clear indication of how badly Discovery has been
structured as a show that we are five seasons deep into this and you're only
now looking at these people going, oh wow, you're a really good actor.
You deserve more than just standing around looking at Michael Burnham impressed.
I'm there going, all these characters were so fascinating, um, that we should
have seen more of them over four seasons.
More subplots, more them going on away missions and stuff like that.
You can't give all the heavy lifting, um, to, to, uh, Tig?
Kevin: Tig Notaro, who wants chips.
Rob: Yeah, you can't give all the heavy lifting to Tig Notaro.
They are amazing and incredible and brilliant and they can just be charming
in their sleep, um, apparently.
Not that I would know.
Um, but yeah, I was just there going, that's a disservice to your
incredible cast that they are only there to service your lead actor,
which is not what Star Trek is about.
Star Trek is a group of people working together and we learn
to survive with all of them.
And love them all.
Kevin: Yeah.
I, I still can't see where they're taking Rayner this season.
Like, he's not exactly redeemed at the end of this episode, and so is he
going to continue to be an antihero?
Or is he a secret villain for this season?
Like, is, is he eventually going to, you know, make a bad call for his career
and, uh, and mutiny because he does not believe in, in Burnham's style of command?
Like, I, I wonder where that's going.
Rob: loop it around because Burnham was, you know, the traitor and mutinied on
the first season and the first episode.
Kevin: There was a little hint dropped when we got Stamets's
report in these scenes.
He just dropped the mention that this technology can reanimate dead organisms.
And I went, Oh, that is, that feels like a promise.
That feels like a hint at the climax of this season.
Someone's going to die and we're going to face a dilemma of whether to use this
technology to resurrect them or not.
Rob: Bring them back to life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kevin: And then, uh, we had the wedding plans.
Rob: Yes, yes we did, and we had, it was very high school drama,
in very, very, okay, we're on the same committee together, and we're
Kevin: Yeah.
I don't know.
The highschool drama for me was Adira and Gray, but
Rob: Ha ha ha.
That was very, very high school, because they're very much
just out of high school, those
Kevin: Yeah, the negotiations about who's gonna get a starbase, and there's
the snake man sitting there who never says anything, and they go to a break,
everyone pairs up and starts having chats, but the snake man sits there all alone.
No one wants to talk to the snake man,
Rob: Why don't you want to talk to the snake man?
Ha ha
Kevin: I, I enjoyed this glimpse into, you know, to use a Star Wars term, the
trade negotiations uh, the Federation.
Uh, I wouldn't want to spend every week here, but it was fun to be a part of.
Rob: Yeah, and to see Saru adjusting to that, um, he's quite the diplomat
and the well spoken, uh, character.
So he does fit into this world very easily.
Kevin: He does.
He's very Vulcan when he's in a relationship with a Vulcan, I have to say.
There, there were several moments where I was thinking, I need a
little more chemistry between you two, if I am to believe that you
are madly in love with each other.
The fact that they, his wife to be compliments his handsomeness
and, and eruditeness in a memo, in a public statement,
Rob: I do love that.
I did actually like that very much.
I had a little giggle going, Oh, that's cute.
That's actually quite cute.
Kevin: cute, but I don't feel any heat between them in the way that we kind of
got a, there was a tingling of it when it was, will they, won't they, will
they acknowledge their feelings or not?
But now that they've acknowledged their feelings, it's kind of evaporated to me.
Rob: It's the, it's the Lois and Clark thing, you know?
The whole, you know, you know, New Adventures of Superman was
amazing and hot and incredible.
Will Lois and Clark get together?
And, and as soon as they did, everyone went, nope, that's
it, we don't want it anymore.
Kevin: After they have fight and Saru admits to her, I've been
terribly uneasy since our tea.
I just thought, Oh, there's just, there's no, there's no passion in, in any of this.
Rob: Yeah, I, I, I like the attempt, I mean, I can't believe
I'm, yeah, justifying it.
I like the attempt at a different form of relationship tension.
So not all, yeah, especially we, we come off Book and Burnham who are, you know,
all that melodramatic, over the top, emotional drama to have it reserved back
within this Vulcan, you know, infused,
Kevin: Yeah, totally.
And I'm here for the Vulcan verbal gymnastics as well.
When Saru's talking with Duvin and Duvin's saying, let me see if I can
get this right, um, I think T'Rina is overcome by her emotions, but
you're an emotional being, so you're always overcome by your emotions,
so I think you can handle it better.
Like, that was the logic, and, Saru says, your, your logic is a bit
circuitous, and I thought, that's fun.
They're playing with it.
It's playful.
Rob: I can see the attempt, but yeah, I agree with you, it didn't completely
work because I am not feeling any heat.
There is no warmth.
There can be warmth, like we talked about last week about, You know,
Star Trek is very good at showing warmth with little words, or as
little, you know, the expression comes through the minimalism of it.
Kevin: I mean, you think back to Spock and T'Pring in Strange New Worlds, and
they're getting out of bed topless with each other, and, there is heat there.
And, uh, I don't know if just, T'Rina is a different kind of Vulcan woman,
but yeah, I just want a little bit more of that Strange New World hot Vulcan.
Rob: Look, when a Canadian asks for more heat, you give it to them, alright?
Kevin: Um, so then the last beat in this was Adira and Gray.
It was funny going back and watching Forget Me Not, which was kind of the
second episode for Adira, and the first episode for Gray in Discovery,
and watching those characters as they were first introduced to us,
I enjoyed those characters so much more in those formative stages.
I don't know if it's because Gray was playing a different version of Gray who
was joined and had the wisdom of the Tal symbiont in him, or if Adira was playing
a different version of Adira who still hadn't figured out what it was to be a
joined Trill, they were still a human who, who was saying, uh, calling the symbiont
my squid in those episodes, because they didn't fully understand what, what they
had been gifted with as a joined entity.
And all that early stuff, I don't know if it's me, but the acting seemed
much more polished and considered.
The characters seemed deeper and more interesting.
And here in what I might guess might be the last time we see Gray in this series,
it feels like they have regressed to high school relationship tropes, and it's not
being played particularly subtly, or at least not in a way I personally enjoy.
Rob: Yeah, I mean, again, it's like what they were doing, uh, with Saru, um, is
that case of, I can see what they're attempting, especially I like the idea
of when we saw them, they were quite young, impulsive, and finding out what,
what love is and what their connection is and all the, the longing, because
they're only in my mind type of and to sh try, they are what, from what I could
tell, they were trying to show this evolution and this maturity growing in
them and how these two people who love each other, their lives have kind of
faded away and this acknowledgement of going we aren't where we were, we're not
who we were, um, and I like that attempt to show, you know, some relationships
end in a bang, some end in a whimper, and some, you know, some just fade.
And I like that attempt to show a fade of something that was, that burnt so
bright and so strong and was so young.
It was very young love when it started out.
Kevin: I think I don't mind the writing, but it's something in either
the direction or the performances that isn't working for me.
Like that first scene in this episode, in the engine room, where Adira is getting
ready to go and meet Gray and is nervous.
They are stammering and, and huffing and, and, you know, stuttering
in a way that it is so overplayed how nervous they are meant to be.
And then Stamets is standing there and the comedy is meant to
be that he is so clueless as a father that he doesn't notice.
But to me, that scene would have worked better if the nervousness
had been underplayed and Jett Reno is the only one who can see it.
And I think it would have done more credit to the character of Adira, because
Adira is being played so immature now.
Going back and watching their very first appearance in the series, even before
they had access to the experience of this, you know, hundreds of years old
entity inside them, they were already being played more mature in those
original couple of episodes than now.
It's something about the, yeah, the maturity of the performance has
gone away in a way that bothers me.
Rob: I agree.
Yeah, they missed, they missed on, missed out on something being quite powerful
and a beautiful little send off of that relationship and they kind of misstepped.
Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
So let us, uh, take this moment then as we're talking about Adira, a joined Trill,
to segue into our topic for this week, which is, uh, all of the joined Trill.
I made a list because it's not that long.
And I think, Rob, I suggested to you that we rate them.
But ever since I made that suggestion, I've been getting
more and more uncomfortable with it, feels we rating people.
And I'm not sure how we would do that.
Are we the performances?
Are we rating the stories?
Are we rating, I don't know, something else?
None of it feels good or useful.
Rob: And especially with some of them, we see multiple interpretations of
that character by different actors, whether in flashback with a different
actor or then in, you know, in Facets, we had, you know, actors we know
from the regular cast, uh, you know,
Kevin: embodying.
Yeah, other Yeah.
To me, there are, there are the featured joined Trill here, uh,
the people who are stars or like guest stars of an entire episode.
And we see them as they are at that point in their life.
And, and in that sense, I feel like Jadzia Dax and Ezri Dax are
both fully formed characters that we might consider separately.
But then there are these former hosts that we are told about, or we get to meet in a
flashback or in a fleeting encounter, and I feel like we can set all of those aside.
And I'm interested in, in considering these, you know, characters we
have properly met and fleshed out.
And for me, they are Odan on, on Star Trek The Next Generation, the
original Trill, Jadzia, there is Lenara Kahn who is Jadzia's ex-wife
or a, a ex-wife of a former Dax host.
And there's Ezri, there's Adira Tal in Discovery, and there is Jinaal Bix
who we met this week, kind, sorta.
I don't even know wanna put Jinaal on the list.
Rob: Well, yeah, I, I did the exact opposite.
I just did a full deep dive into the former lives of all the
Dax's, because I got so engrossed.
I'm there going, this is absolutely fascinating, because it's like a
history, a history of the Federation as well as all this type of stuff.
So,
Kevin: Well, why don't you take us through the Dax history and then I will
take my research into the other Trill as a compare and contrast at the end.
Rob: Beautiful.
Alright, so, okay, if we're looking at Facets, which is Season 3, Episode 25
of Deep Space Nine, Dax, uh, Jadzia goes through the process of having one on
one conversations with all her previous incarnations, using a Doctor Who term.
And the spirit of that, uh, incarnation goes into another host form.
And so the actors throughout Deep Space Nine fill those roles.
Kevin: Something that's happened several times where we've gotten
to see those actors play different characters, and I think we've talked
about that on a previous episode.
Rob: Love it.
That's what, yeah, I love most about, uh, the Deep Space Nine cast.
It's the most consistent of quality of actors and they show that.
In all seven seasons of going check out our Bond episode, check out our Badda-bing
episode, check out this episode here.
We see the variety, um, you know, the episode where they're all completely
different characters, 1950s, with Benjamin Sisko being a black writer in the 1950s.
So, we start off with the first incarnation, which is
Lela Dax, played by Kira.
Jadzia gets, uh, holding her hands behind her back from Lela.
Yeah, very powerful figure.
We have, uh, Tobin Dax is the second one with O'Brien.
O'Brien's an engineer; Tobin was an engineer, and Tobin was a bit of
a man about town, uh, had quite a few relationships under his belt.
Kevin: But kind of a fidgety, kind of funny little dude, right?
Rob: Biting his nails?
Kevin: Yeah, he's almost a Ferengi, I felt like.
Rob: Very Ferengi esque, um, we have Emony Dax, uh, which we had Leeta fill
in that role, Chase Masterson doing a great job, who was a, an Olympic gymnast,
if you, if you, if you can believe that, and had an affair with a very
young Leonard McCoy back in the day.
Kevin: Yeah, I forgot about that, that's
Rob: Yeah, very, very cute, very, very cute.
Then we have, uh, Audrid?
Audra
Kevin: Mm hmm.
Rob: Audrid Dax, played by, uh, Armin Shimmerman's Quark, filled in there.
This incarnation had, um, problems within her domestic life, uh, didn't
speak to her daughter for years until they got to reconcile at the end.
We then move on to Torias, Torias Dax, and this is the incarnation,
um, who was married to, uh, Lenara.
They're an adventurer, a thrill seeker, who eventually died in a shuttle
accident, and that was, um, Julian Bashir filling that role, which is quite,
uh, quite funny, because especially with the connection with Julian having
the hots for Jadzia at the start.
Now, the next one.
This is the most fascinating one for me.
This is Joran.
Joran Dax,
Kevin: The murderer!
Rob: The murderer, the serial killer.
And he comes back in a season 7 episode with Ezri, because Ezri's
trying to hunt down a serial killer within Deep Space Nine.
It's a great episode, really.
Kevin: This host was originally kind of erased or hidden, right?
It came out in an early episode.
Rob: Um, yes, the, uh, the Trill Council erased the memories, or
sorta like held back the memories from Jadzia getting access to them.
'cause this was a blight on the, that whole symbiont experience.
'cause only the best of the best could, uh, you know, hold onto a symbiont.
And Joran was a, was a, uh, a musician, a very famous musician,
and turns out that he was, you know, a psychopath and killed people.
But they had to go through this process so that Jadzia could get access to
those memories and prove that that would make, you know, that would not
consume her, they would actually better her as a, um, as a Trill symbiont host.
Um, and he comes back as a memory within Ezri Dax, and Ezri Dax is almost, uh,
manipulated into killing herself because Joran wants her to feel what it's like.
Um, fascinating stuff.
Great stuff.
Joran's great, great, uh, incarnation.
We got little tastes of him more than any of the others.
Uh, we then have Curzon.
Curzon, just before, which we know so much about
Kevin: Old man!
Rob: Old man.
His relationship with Sisko.
Um, there's a previous episode where, you know, he had an affair with a
higher up member from a different planet with the whole war raging.
Kevin: I like Curzon because we are given to believe that he, he was both
a hard ass, who believed intensely in things being done well or right.
He would have been your most strict professor at university.
Like, that is Curzon.
And at the same time, he was a complete party animal
womanizer in his private life.
Rob: And as Jadzia describes, he fell in love with everyone.
He fell in love with every woman he met, and pretty much
every other week he was in love.
And he indeed fell in love with Jadzia, that's why he originally refused her to,
because he was on the council of Trill, uh, for being selected, and because he
had fallen for Jadzia, he wouldn't do it.
Played by René Auberjonois in, um, Facets.
So like his whole shape shifting phase became more Trill, he had
a bit more of his expressions.
Got to go out and meet Sisko and have a drink and all that type of experience.
Really bring Curzon to life, and René Auberjonois may he rest in
peace, one of the great actors ever to appear on Star Trek.
Uh, so yeah, Kurzon, we know a lot about Kurzon just from, you know, all that time.
Kevin: And that brings us up to Jadzia
Rob: Jadzia and Ezri are the ones that we know, of course.
If it wasn't for ill treatment and poor negotiations from behalf of the producers,
we would have not had the end of Jadzia Dax, but, you know, Terry Farrell had
to look out for herself and look after herself, and she was definitely not
being looked after by the producers on, uh, Star Trek, and she, uh moves on.
Kevin: It's hard to separate our assessment or reflection on
these characters from what we now know went on behind the scenes.
Rob: Yes, very much so.
Kevin: But I'd like to try anyway and just for, for what appeared on
screen, how do you think of Jadzia and Ezri as two different people, and
what's interesting about that to you?
Rob: Yeah, I mean, I believe that, uh, Nicole de Boer, who played,
um, Ezri had the harder job.
Whereas Terry Farrell had five seasons to develop the character, and as we've
already discussed before, um, she was very much going under the direction of
play in her first season playing Jadzia very cool, very calm, hands behind
the back all the time, and not really allowed to bring any real personality.
Um, so it took her about a season or two before she started to loosen up
and Uh, you know, play card games, and drink, and all that type of stuff.
Bring that element of Terry Farrell's dynamic personality
as an actor to the role.
Kevin: And the writers responding to it and then putting it in
scripts and yeah, it was a true partnership finding that character.
Rob: As, as with all good television shows are, it's about the longer you stay on a
show, the more the writers are inspired by you, the person, and what you bring to it.
So Nicole had the tough job of having to make those big
character leaps very quickly.
Also, it was a bit of a complication for me turning her Ezri into a counsellor.
So, uh, and there was a lot of interplay about that, I don't know
you, I don't trust you, you're very young, how can I open up to you?
Kevin: And the role counselor has always been kind of fraught in Star Trek.
I mean, famously, Troi, Troi was an underused character, and the, the writers
didn't know what to do with her, and the actor felt underused as a result,
or, or ill served, and, uh, to cast your new Dax in the role of a counselor, on
the one hand It fits in the universe because that's an established role, on
the other hand It is not an easy role to make your own and make powerful
in a show, especially when you've got just the last year or so to do it.
Rob: Yeah, I mean, psychology has evolved so much just within the last 30 years,
and so trying to present a futuristic view of psychology from a, from a 1980s
point of view and then slowly evolving in the 1990s has always been tricky.
But um, I love, I love both interpretations of Dax.
Um, I love all the interpretations, really, all the incarnations, and
I think both Nicole and Terry bring different energies, and, and, and both
are worthy, and both are, uh, acceptable.
Just like with Doctor Who, you bring your own personality to the incarnation.
You don't play a type of character, you play your version of it.
That's love about both those incarnations.
Kevin: I think we are, we are supposed to see in the performances, and I do,
and in the writing as well, that in some ways Jadzia is a more knowing
and confident presence, whereas Ezri is more self doubting and unsure.
I don't know if that is just meant to be their age, but it feels to
me more like a character choice, or a character design choice.
Rob: And it is also the case of, uh, Jadzia went through the trials and
the, and the process to become a host.
Whereas Ezri, you know, was an emergency.
They just had to do it straight away because the symbiont was
dying on the way to back to Trill.
Kevin: A proto-Adira, if you will.
I mean, that accounts for Adira's relative inexperience, the fact that
they are meeting the experience of being joined with wide open eyes
and fear and, and wonder as well in the same way that Ezri did.
Rob: Very much so and I mean you see how the influences are.
Jadzia very much embraces Sisko straight away and they become
friends almost instantly because of that connection with Curzon.
Whereas Sisko is quite suspicious at the start of season seven of welcoming
in another Dax that is connected to not only Curzon's memory but Jadzia's.
And how Ezri deals with that is a big part of the drama that evolves over that
season of how she fits and how she wants to be perceived by the people she knew
but also see the new version of her.
It's, yeah, very clever writing to bring in in the final season.
Kevin: So since we're talking about Dax anyway, let's talk briefly about Lenara
Kahn, who comes in an episode called Rejoined, season four, episode six of Deep
Rob: A controversial, controversial episode.
Kevin: I mean, the famous same sex kiss between, uh, Dax and Kahn is,
um, a vivid memory in the young minds of many Deep Space Nine
fans like you and I, I dare say,
Rob: Very much so.
Kevin: And broke new ground on television.
Rob: Very much broke new ground and very much a product of the time.
There are so many, so many barriers put up to get the point where they
have the very intimate, beautiful kiss between the two of them.
Kevin: Yes.
Not only is it taboo in the real world of the typical American TV viewer, but it is
taboo in the fiction of Deep Space Nine, where Trill are not meant to reassociate
with previous romantic partners.
Rob: And very much is the case of any type of representation of the LGBTIQ community.
Stories about them are always twisted in a tragic bent.
There's no real, at that time, most of the stories that we would see, whether
it be Philadelphia, it's a case of the pain, the punishment, the, the
drama, as opposed to showing just, you know, a happy, positive relationship.
It's all fraught with, oh, this is doomed, oh, this is tragic,
oh, this isn't gonna work.
Kevin: And yet, you can see, like, the merit of what they were attempting here,
dare say, in the context of the time, radically succeeded in, is that they,
they set aside the, the taboo of the same sex relationship, and made that
completely a non issue in Star Trek but then they used the allegory of the Trill
taboo in order to make that rejoining and ultimately that kiss a shocking
thing in the fiction of the show.
And it allowed us to explore our reactions to that as an audience free
of the modern prejudices that existed at the time and still persist today.
Rob: Exactly.
It's a masterpiece of writing to be able to, it seems as if society
at that time, and producers at the time, and the network at the time,
laid down all these, restrictions.
And so the writers said, we've got to work within that, but
we will still tell this story.
And the fact that despite all these restrictions, it still works today, it's a
beautiful episode, it's a beautiful story.
And you can take, like you said, take away all those other that they've
added on, you can see this, you know, doomed relationship that, you
know, and this heartbreak at the end where, you know, Lenara chooses Trill
custom over, you know over her heart.
Kevin: I mean, ultimately, this was, this was not a story of queer characters.
It was not a centering queer characters in pop culture.
I mean, we are getting that with Adira and Grey now in
Discovery, and that's excellent.
Back then, the Deep Space Nine audience, or at least the studio
making it, was not ready for that.
What it did do, though, is put a same sex relationship on a screen in a
way that would invite the audience to examine their reaction to that.
And that has value in its own way.
Rob: And there is comparisons like we were talking about with the breakup in
this most recent episode of Discovery.
It isn't in any, it's, it's sad, but it's two characters just drifting apart.
It's not this tragic end.
It's just going, look, we still love and respect each other,
but we've kind of moved on.
Kevin: Yes, and I take your point that there is value to showing that as normal.
Like, those relationships start and end just like any
other normal relationship does.
Rob: And it's got nothing to do with their sexuality.
It's all to do with just them as people, which is great evolution
that we have come through.
But you're right, this story from Deep Space Nine is not a queer story, but
it can be seen through those eyes.
But all those restrictions made it very, very clear that, you
it's a very heteronormative time.
Kevin: Yeah, and beyond all of the work it was doing, uh, as a pioneering
episode in pop culture, uh, exploring these social issues in its own way at the
time, besides all that, it is a really great performance by both of these women,
especially Terry Farrell as Jadzia Dax.
To me, this might be the best acting we get from Terry
Farrell in the entire series.
I don't know, I have not done a full watch of Deep Space Nine lately, I might
be forgetting some very obvious examples of knocking down the house, but, uh,
I watched this one just yesterday, and it brought me to tears all over again.
Saw subtlety, and richness, and multiple layers to her character, and her, you
know, the, the past character of Torias Dax, who is married to, uh, Nilani Kahn.
Like, I got, I feel like I got to know a little more about Torias in this
episode through Jadzia's performance, and that is a remarkable achievement.
And whoever cast that guest star, Did a great job because
she did a great job as well.
I felt like she, she matched Terry Farrell for gravitas and for depth of performance.
And I felt like there, there was just as much a character.
There were, there were deep, rich characters on both sides of
this relationship that we got to experience in this one episode.
Rob: Susanna Thompson, did an incredible job.
Yeah, the connection between Thompson and, um, Farrell is amazing.
Their chemistry is incredible.
Kevin: So yeah, that was Lenara Kahn.
And then the, the last joined Trill I think it's worth talking about is
going way back to the beginning and rewinding to the host in Star Trek The
Next Generation, Season 4, Episode 23, where we meet Odan, the first Trill.
Did you ever watch this episode
Rob: We did, we reviewed it, we reviewed it a while a back,
yeah, so that was my first.
A while a back, gee, type of terminology is that?
I remember watching it, I got a little bit annoyed by it, but you, uh,
Kevin: I could understand that.
If you were going back as a fan of the Trill and, and watching this as
the introduction, you'd, you would be annoyed by how many things are
wrong about Trill in this episode.
Rob: I felt very much like Krusty the Clown in that episode of The
Simpsons watching the cartoon from the German Cat and Mouse.
And I'm just there with a cigarette in my mouth going, what the hell is that?
Kevin: It does feel someone heard secondhand, someone talk about what the
Trill were, and they attempted to recreate them from what they half remembered.
It's it's similar, but different.
Rob: So, yes, I mean, we learn stuff that, you know, the, the the forehead
ridges were taken off because Terry Farrell didn't look hot in them.
But they, but it introduced us to the awesome dots on the skin, which I find far
more fascinating as a creature creation.
I love that.
And, uh, yes, we find out, like, there's almost a, there's almost like
a robotic change, like when the new
Kevin: When the new host comes and she goes, I am here to become Odan's new host.
Like, yeah, the implication is that these hosts are empty husks,
Rob: They're empty husks.
The personality is within the symbiont.
Yes.
Which I love they've evolved out of that
Kevin: It's so much more interesting where they got to on the second
Rob: much more interesting.
Kevin: Here's tidbit for you.
This is credit, full credit to Memory Alpha on this.
It says, The difference between this symbiont and ones shown later was
explained in the non canon novel Forged in Fire, which explained that the ridged
Trill, such as Odan's host, were the result of a strain of the Klingon Augment
virus that managed to infect a Trill colony through visiting Klingon traders.
What do you think of that?
It all links back to Enterprise, Rob.
At the end of the day, Enterprise always explains everything.
Rob: Hah!
Of course, Enterprise is the hidden gem.
You know what?
Enterprise is the greatest Star Trek series of all time.
I couldn't even finish that couldn't even finish it.
Um, look, I
Kevin: There's stuff like the very first, like the cold open for this episode, Odan
returns to his quarters and in front of the mirror, like opens his shirt and his
stomach is pulsing and he needs to, he needs to like, blast it with a little
laser beam to get it to calm down.
Oh.
Rob: And it's a case of nobody, like, and they're not, the
Trill culture isn't known about.
Kevin: No.
It's kind secretive.
And again, yeah.
People who, who do backflips to make things make sense in canon, they say
that this event where Odan is revealed in this episode of The Next Generation
was actually the, the coming out, if you will, of the Trill species as symbionts
or, or that some of them anyway are is that, yeah, that was somewhat secretive
and private up until that point.
And yeah, that's not at all on screen.
It's just stories we tell ourselves after the fact.
Rob: It's very interesting to see how it evolves and how, just from that first
episode, The Host, and what we get at now, even with Discovery, it's a, like,
it's, you can look at it the same way as with Doctor Who as well, because Doctor
Who had different people take over and shift, but you can still see elements
of the first Doctor, even in Ncuti Gatwa, you can see components of it.
But with this, it's a sense of, apart from the fact that there is a host and
there's a symbiont inside, there's very, very little that you can see familiar
Kevin: Odan was designed as a monster of the week, if you'll accept that
term, and designed specifically for the effect that, that that character would
have, or that, that alien would have on the characters we know, Beverly,
who'd fallen in love unknowingly with a symbiont, and Riker, who ends up,
um, playing host in that episode.
Rob: Dear old Beverly, looking for love in all the wrong places.
Kevin: Odan didn't even have two names.
So, like, Odan is the symbiont.
We don't even know the name of the host.
Rob: Well, that's the thing, yeah.
It could be, you know, Derek Odan.
Kevin: Well, William Odan temporarily.
Rob: Ah!
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, should have the two name facets,
Kevin: As I re watched this episode, there was some real 90s pan flute
action in the score when Beverly was wrestling with her emotions, looking
across Ten Forward at this, this man, Riker, who is meant to be the, the man
that she's in love with, but she can't quite bring herself to accept that.
And Troi is saying, um, If you can feel those things from the man we
know as Will Riker, accept them.
Accept the love.
The professional advice from Troi, the counselor.
Rob: And then when Odan comes in as a woman, she just goes, too much.
I'm out.
Kevin: Well, it was fun going down memory lane of, uh, the
Trill and their joined characters.
It's kind of neat that there are still, you know, so few of them
that you can count them on one hand.
And, uh, and it feels like there's still plenty to be
explored and told about this race.
Rob: Oh, there's even like, there's two Daxes we didn't even get to.
There's Virad Dax, played by John Glover, who uh, hijacks
the symbiont of uh, Jadzia.
Kevin: Freakin interesting episode, that one.
Like, yeah, what do you do when the, the kidnapped becomes the kidnapper or
the kidnapper becomes the kidnapped?
Like, yeah, so weird.
That's another Tuvix story.
Rob: Yes, it's very Tuvix, isn't it?
Um, and yeah, just, it's a very melancholy, not even, very sad, bleak
ending of the, nobody dies, but this whole, this, uh, It's, it's a very, it's a
violation and who is, has a right to who.
There's also, uh, Yedrin, Yedrin Dax in the alternate one where,
Kevin: They get trapped on the, in the time bubble sort of thing they,
we see their future generations.
Rob: Jadzia, dies and passes on to her son and this son tries to keep the
Defiant crew there because they want their life to keep on going but they have
to go back and so that entire population of thousands of people are wiped out.
So,
Kevin: Yeah, I didn't like that Dax.
That was not a Dax I enjoyed.
Ha ha
Rob: Yeah, no, we much prefer the serial
Kevin: Haaaaaa!
Uh,
Rob: one.
At least serial killer Dax helped in some way.
Am I gonna regret saying that?
Maybe, yeah.
Um, but yes, so, so that is the end of our look at Episode 3 of Discovery Season 5.
We had a bit of a stroll down Trill lane.
Um, I did like that moment at the end though when the symbiont
went back into the pool and we kind of saw it just swim off.
That was of a beautiful little moment.
And we'll be swimming back here next week to talk about, Episode 4.