Coming up on the Devil's Details, this chapter's for the birds. Revelation chapter 19. Yeah. For the points.

The early bird gets the flesh of the wicked. Yeah. Oh,

boy. Good morning, Star, and welcome to another episode of the Devil's Details, a show where we dig up, decipher, dissect, deconstruct the many forms of the devil. One of my names is Lester Ryan Clark.

And I sometimes go by Kynan Dias.

And we're just two lost souls hitchhiking down the highway to hell. And yeah, folks, welcome back. We are on chapter 19 now, and honestly, this might be the most metal chapter in the entire bible. Like, you thought the last couple chapters were intense, buckle up because John just goes absolutely feral. I just learned this word, feral.

Mhmm. I mean, I didn't learn this word just I know what feral means, but apparently, this is like like the new slang.

It's old enough that it got to you as a k 12 teacher.

Yes. Oh, great.

Yeah. It's supernative. Yeah. The kids still say this, though.

Okay. Good. Good. Good. Right.

That's the most important thing. But yeah, John goes feral. Mhmm. We've got heavenly worship services. We've got wedding imagery.

Mhmm. And then we got Jesus on a white horse with that sword coming out of his mouth leading an army to absolutely wreck the beast and all his followers. Then there's this horrifying scene where birds are eating corpses. Folks, it is a lot.

Those those are good birds eating bad corpses.

Yes.

We're supposed to go, yay. Hooray for these delightful chickadees. Yes.

Yeah. Every good bird how does it go?

Yeah. Every good bird does find or deserves fair deserves flesh.

Yeah. Every good bird deserves flesh. Yeah. And and wouldn't you know it folks? That's where that's where that comes from is is Revelation chapter 19.

Now you know. But, yeah, let's dive in because this chapter is doing something really interesting structurally. Mhmm. It's it's a hinge point. We we just watched Babylon fall, and now we're pivoting.

Mhmm. Pivot. Pivot. That's that's also old. Right?

Yes. That's pretty old.

Okay. Alright. We're pivoting to what comes after, and the popular interpretation has turned it into I don't know. What what let's let's read it first, shall we?

Mhmm. Yes. That sounds good.

Alright. Alright. This is Revelation chapter 19. And after these things, heard a great voice of much people in heaven saying, hallelujah, salvation and glory and honor and power under the Lord our God. For true and righteous are his judgments, for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

And again they said, alleluia, and her smoke rose up forever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne saying, amen, hallelujah. And a voice came out of the throne saying, praise our God, all ye his servants and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him, for the marriage of the lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white, for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, write, blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the lamb. And he saith unto me, these are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, see thou do it not, I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus.

Worship God for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And I saw heaven opened. Behold, a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true. And in righteousness, he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns, and he had a name written that no man knew but he himself, and he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and his name is called the word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, and clothed in fine linen white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, king of kings and lord of lords. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God, that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone, and the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth, and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Oh, boy.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Well, at least the birds are. Well, he's done it.

I guess he's cast them away. Right?

Yeah. Into hell,

I was gonna say.

Yeah. The burning lake of fire and brimstone. Mhmm. Mhmm. Fire and brimstone.

I mean, that's there's a lot of things I'm feeling like we get from this chapter. Mhmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I I remembered that. I hadn't quite remembered, you know, reading this this closely how how well fed the birds are.

They were very happy at the end.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what you gotta say from now on. Right? You don't say you don't say kill two birds with one stone.

Oh, no.

You say feed two birds with one scone. Have you heard this before?

I've heard you say it.

Oh, I've already said this. Okay.

Rather than yeah. Rather than yeah. The animal cruelty, or anti animal cruelty. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Yes.

Well, jeez. See? See, this is just me feeding a fed horse, I guess, which is also what you gotta say. Yeah. But yeah.

Okay. So so in popular end times reading, folks, chapter 19 is, the big one. This is the second coming of Christ, capital s, capital c. This is Jesus returning to Earth at the end of the tribulation to defeat the Antichrist and his armies at the battle of Armageddon. He's riding that white horse.

He's got a sword. He's got king of kings and lord of lords written on his thigh for some reason.

Mhmm.

And he's coming to judge the wicked and establish his millennial kingdom on earth. And again, when we say millennial kingdom Mhmm. We mean the thousand year kingdom, not, you know, the kingdom of people with anxiety.

No. No. As Millennials, we could not afford a kingdom on our side.

No. No. No. No. No.

In this economy? No. In the beast's economy? No. But okay.

The the marriage supper of the lamb, right, that's it is believed that that is the church being united with Christ in heaven while all the unbelievers are suffering through, the tribulation on earth. Right? Mhmm. The armies following Jesus, these are the raptured saints coming back with him. You could say that they they go marching in.

Mhmm. Right?

So so they've been they've been raptured up previously and now they're coming back down with the second coming.

Yes. Alright. The beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire, that is the antichrist and his right hand man getting their final judgment.

Mhmm.

Alright? And, and yeah, the birds eating flesh. Well, that's that's just I I I that's just there to be scary, I guess, just to show how thoroughly, the wicked are are defeated. Right? It's like even even the even the boys are are enjoying the the fruits of this massacre, of this massacre, of this moya.

Yeah. I did see that potentially it's this bird imagery because like all, you know, all of the dead, it's like the birds have this final say.

Oh yeah, it's kind

of Yeah, like like vultures, right.

Right? It's like he's definitely dead because like a bird is eating out of his eyes.

He's dead, right, exactly. Not coming back, yeah. It has become chicken feed. Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Mhmm. So it's like it's it's it's it's like it's like oh, it's the the doctor has the final say. It's like I pronounce him dead. Right? Mhmm.

No. No. No. No. The priest has the final say because it's like oh, and blessed and and give him his last rights.

No. No. No. No. Nope.

Even after that, it is the Boyds.

That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. I pronounce him lunch. Yeah. Yeah.

But again, it's all very literal, very violent, very, you know, Jesus is coming back with with a sword to to kill everyone who didn't accept him, which I gotta say has always felt a little off to me. Sure. Like like, is that really the message? Right? Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, but also I'm gonna come back and slaughter everyone with a sword in my mouth?

Mhmm. I don't know. Right? Yeah. Seems seems like maybe we're missing something here.

Well, jeez. I hope so. I mean, he's the one who's gonna tread the wine press of wrath. Right?

Right. Stamping out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored?

Mhmm.

Stored. Right? Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the previous chapter.

Terrible's with sword than wraths. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. But, yeah, let's actually look at what is happening here because like everything in Revelation, this is way more nuanced than the popular interpretation suggests. So the chapter starts with this massive celebration in heaven. Hallelujah. Salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord our God for true and righteous are his judgments for he hath judged the great whore.

Right?

Mhmm.

Babylon has fallen and heaven is rejoicing. And folks, this this hallelujah, this is actually the only place in the entire New Testament where this word appears. It is a Hebrew word, hallelujah, meaning praise the Lord, and it shows up constantly in Psalms. So John is deliberately using Jewish liturgical language here. He is connecting this moment to the whole tradition of God defeating oppressive empires throughout, Israel's history.

Okay.

This is when I first learned this, this was kind of mind blowing for me because, like, as a little Catholic boy in little Catholic school Mhmm. Like, hallelujah or hallelujah was, like, all we ever sang.

Right. Absolutely.

Mhmm. It was like, hallelujah, hallelujah. Like, like, all of the like, like, that was everything. Right? Mhmm.

Right. And apparently, oh, wait a minute. I think we're breaking a law here right now, Damien, because I don't think you're supposed to say this word during Lent.

Oh, really? Why?

Yeah. I because it's celebratory. We're not supposed to we're supposed to hold it until Easter. So us recording this podcast right now, we are we are actively sinning right now.

Oh, no. What have you given up for Lent if that's not too personal?

Oh, I try I try Mhmm. Not to rather rather than give up things, I try to do more things.

That sounds nice.

Like, do more good things. Right?

Because Uh-huh.

Because it's so easy to kind of, like, you know, I I don't wanna, you know, judge other people. See, there I go judging. Mhmm. But I don't wanna be like it's like, oh, I'm gonna give up gum. And then, like, secretly, I don't even, you know, chew gum anymore or something like that.

Right? Or I'm gonna give up sugar, which is impossible, and that always fails. Right? Mhmm. So I wanna I wanna just like, oh, I'm going to like like, if I had to put it in the context of giving something up, I'm going to give up judging people so quickly.

Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. Or I'm going to give up not helping people or something like that. You know, I'm gonna try to, you know, pay it forward Uh-huh.

You know, like, least once a day or something like that. Or I'm gonna try to be more empathetic. I'm gonna try to be more understanding of others. So, you know, in in the give up language, be like, I'm going to give up, you know, closing my ears to, you know, other people's troubles or something like that.

Gotcha. Yeah. So you you pick something you're working on and then Yes. I mean, because I think some people some people, not everybody, with Lent, it's like, I'm gonna give this this up, but I'm gonna go right back to it when I'm done. And other people other people decide not to do it that way.

They said, I'm going to really work on this thing that I'm giving up and and I'm gonna stick with that later,

you know.

But I see. So, yeah, this is something that you're working on in a positive way.

Yeah. Try to form a a good habit. Right? Mhmm. I remember back in the day, I I really took, you know, the part about, like, not eating meat on Friday very, very seriously.

Yep. To the point where, like, like, we would, like, freak out. Like, I I would, you know, go to my, you know, my friend's house for, a sleepover or something like that, and they were Catholic too. And I remember there was a time we, you know, we were having a good, you know, like, Catholic Friday Lent

Mhmm.

Dinner. Right? And and we were we were so proud. It's like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, it's like it's like, there's no meat in here.

There there's no meat in here at all. Right? It's it's it's fish and it's, you know, vegetables and it's this lovely salad with bacon bits. And we both we the the parent my best friend's parents Mhmm. Could not calm us down.

We were sure we were going to hell Mhmm. Because we accidentally ate bacon bits. And from that experience, like, both learned a valuable lesson that, like, hey. God doesn't actually care about that part. Mhmm.

You know? Mhmm. He cares about whether you're a good person or not. Right? Right.

You ate some bacon bits. Oh, well. Right? Mhmm. Accidentally.

Right.

Your parents are going to hell, but but you're fine. Yeah. No. No. No.

No. But yeah. Like like so so going back to this hallelujah thing, are we this does does this sound right to you? Like

It doesn't. I had to go check on that. Even though I read that too, I had to go check on that. No. That must not be right.

And and and what did you find?

That this is the only place. Yeah. Just in Revelation. Yeah.

So Revel like, the most, like, violent and hateful book, that's what we were singing in in

No. So it is very old testament y, apparently. So, yes, this is the only place in the New Testament.

Wow. Okay. Well Mhmm. Dang. I you know, like, okay.

Battle Hymn of the Republic. I get it. You know? But

Mhmm.

Dang. Okay. Well, jeez. I'm just I'm just learning new things left and right here. Yeah.

Mhmm. Yeah. But but yeah. And then okay. And then we got, you know, the 24 elders.

Right? And the four living creatures. Hey. They're back.

They're called beasts here in the King James. Again. Yeah. Just just in time to confuse us again against the living creatures.

But like we're we were able to we've we've been schooled and we we've we've caught it this time. Mhmm. Right? And then, yeah, his voice like many waters and and mighty thundering saying, hallelujah for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Mhmm.

Right? So the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Right? Not the emperor, not Caesar, not Rome, God. God reigns.

Right? This is a direct challenge to Roman imperial theology which said that Caesar was lord and the emperor's power was supreme. John is saying, nope. Rome fell. Babylon fell.

God is the one who actually reigns. Right? Mhmm. And then we get to verse seven. Right?

The marriage of the lamb is come and the wife hath made herself ready. Right? Okay. So this this wedding imagery, right, in in Jewish prophetic literature is is a big thing. The relationship between God and his people is constantly described as a marriage.

When Israel is faithful, they're a bride. When they're unfaithful, they're an adulteress or a prostitute. Remember how we talked about, you know, the language when we when we covered the whore of Babylon. Mhmm. So here, John is contrasting the whore of Babylon, Rome, unfaithful, corrupt, dressed in purple and scarlet and gold Mhmm.

With the bride of the lamb, the faithful community dressed in quote fine linen, clean and white Mhmm. Which represents the quote righteousness of the saints. Right? So it's complete reversal. Babylon was dressed in luxury and covered in blood and the bride is dressed in simple white linen representing righteous acts.

Babylon was drunk on violence. The bride is pure.

Yeah. And this is gonna come up for the remaining chapters again where the reason that we can understand that the the whore of Babylon is not a literal woman, it stands for city. Similarly here, we have we have the lamb getting married to this woman, and then the woman we're gonna make clear later on is the new Jerusalem. So it's again like this woman woman as city metaphor.

Right. The new Jerusalem, the new Israel, again Israel being like to be with God. Right? Right. Yeah.

And yeah, the the marriage supper of the lamb, right, this isn't about, you know, the rapture or or some future event in heaven. This is John using wedding banquet imagery which was a common metaphor in Jesus' teaching to describe the celebration of God's faithful people finally being vindicated, finally being united with their God after suffering under empire. Right? Yeah. And then, okay, I really like this.

I think we mentioned this before in our Paradise Lost season when the angel Raphael comes down and talks to Adam. Mhmm. And Adam, like, he he he bows and he makes obeisance to the angel. And I was like, wait a minute, because that's not, you know, that's not a thing. Like, I I specifically remember the angels, not wanting that.

Right.

Yeah. And this is where this comes from. Right? So in verse 10, John tries to worship this this new angel who has come down and and given this prophecy, and the angel's like, woah woah woah. Don't don't do that.

I'm just a fellow servant. Worship God. Mhmm. And I think back then, we were kind of like fascinated by the theology of this. Like, this is the thing that separates, like, Raphael and Michael and Uriel from Satan where, like, Satan's idea is like, oh, no.

They they should all, you know, bow to us. We are the angels. We're we're up top. Right? Mhmm.

So we were fascinated by kind of, like, the lore of this, but you can also look at this as a dig at the imperial cult. Right? Rome, you were expected to worship the emperor to to bow down to a human or a representative of a human, and the angel is like, no. No. No.

No. We don't worship messengers. Right? Which is what angel means. Right?

We don't worship representatives. We worship God alone.

Mhmm.

Alright. And then starting at verse 11, we get to the part, that, the popular interpretation, really kinda latches onto Jesus on that white horse. Right? And I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true and in righteousness, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Mhmm.

Alright. So first of all, this imagery of a, you know, a divine warrior on a white horse, this would have been immediately recognizable to John's audience as a parody of Roman triumphal processions.

Okay.

Yeah. That's that's actually where the word triumph comes from. It's it was the name of the the parade. It was a specific parade.

Mhmm.

Right? So when a Roman general won a major military victory, he would ride into Rome on a white horse in this like huge parade and the defeated enemies would be paraded alongside him in chains. It was a display of Rome's military might and its, dominance. There's even a a a line in Julius Caesar in in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar Mhmm. Where, Cassius and Brutus, they're they're kind of coming to terms with, the fact that they have they have they're going to lose this this battle.

Mhmm. And Cassius I I believe Cassius says to Brutus, are you prepared to be led in triumph through the streets of Rome? And to today's ears, that sounds like, oh, that like, do they think they're gonna win the war? Right. But they mean, like, are you prepared to be led as slaves in Caesar's triumph parade Rome.

For you, you'd be the the walk of shame down Yes. Down yeah. Down the city. Yeah. Mhmm.

That's interesting.

Yeah. So so here, John is taking this imagery. He's flipping it. The true victor, the true king isn't Caesar, it's the lamb. It's Jesus.

And he's quote faithful and true unlike Rome which is full of, you know, blasphemy and lies.

Well, that's interesting. I mean, the gospels, the way that they flip it, you know, either either this really happened to in the real Christ story or, you know, the authors of the gospels have, you know, used this as a parody. But Jesus, you know, has his triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Yes, exactly.

Right. So instead of this horse imagery. So Mhmm. So here, I don't know, so let's let's just state that that it's where that really happens, that's why the gospels describe it that way. Sure.

And then but then John is like, oh, I can do I can do even better in this, you know, for you know, this prophecy version.

Yeah. Which you can't, John. That was the best version of it.

Leave it alone. No. I'm gonna he's gonna be on a big horse. It's gonna be white.

It's gonna be a big white horse. He's gonna have a sword coming out of his no. No. The image oh, actually, Kainan, no. You you you have perfectly distilled it.

That that is the difference. Mhmm. Right? The the actual Jesus of the gospels used this, like, joke too. It's like, hey.

Look. Here's my triumph. I'm coming in on this beast of burden, and it's just like normal people and they're not waving swords, they're not waving banners or flags, they're waving palms, which is like the cheapest and easiest thing to get. Right? Right.

Mhmm. So this is this is my triumphal procession. Right. That's perfect. That's like whether or not it actually happened, that's like poetically perfect.

That's what Jesus would do. Yes. It literally is. Yeah. I am humble, and clearly anyone could come in and, you know, arrest me or kill me right here.

Know, I'm I'm not coming in as a warrior. Yes.

That is the that is the best that is objectively the best version of that.

Sure. Yeah.

Mhmm. John, if, like, if you have to do it again Mhmm. Which you don't, but if you have to do it again, just do it exactly like that.

Just do it just like that. Okay. Great.

Don't have, like like, an actual war horse and Jesus with a sword coming out of his mouth. Come on.

Yeah. Yeah. And it it does here confuse me because we also have very similar phrasing here about the the, you know, the four horseman right, about a pale horse.

And the one that sat on him was blah blah blah.

Yes. Yes. So that confused me here. I thought I thought at first we were talking about one of the horsemen.

Oh, yeah. Either either death or or the first one

on It the white becomes clear later, I get, when you're reading it bit by bit. But,

And this might be because remember when we were talking about the four horsemen Mhmm. People were wondering who the first one was.

Uh-huh.

Right? Because before Pestilence, you know, before Zepo no. Before what's his name? Before Shem.

Gummo. Yeah.

It was conquest Mhmm. War, famine, and death.

Right.

Right? And then and then conquest was like people couldn't agree. They were like, oh, this this because he was on a white horse and and which is like linguistically different from the pale horse that comes later with death. Mhmm. But there was like, oh, who's this who's this guy?

They couldn't agree. They thought he was Christ. They thought he was the antichrist. Mhmm. They thought he was just the idea of like non civil war, like other war.

Right? Right. And nobody could agree. And I think one of the the arguments for him being Christ is this part right here because it's like the same. Right.

Mhmm. Yeah. But also here, John adds a little bit more to, the imagery. His eyes were as a flame of fire and on his head were many crowns. Right?

I just thought that this was what bad people do in Revelation that they have many crowns. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Seven heads and 10 horns.

Right. So this Jesus has one head, hopefully.

Yeah. But many crowns.

Many crowns. Right.

Mhmm. Right. Not just one because because he's not just king of one nation or one empire, he's the king of kings. Mhmm. Right?

And his name, quote, that no man knew but he himself. Right? This is emphasizing his divine nature, his his otherness, his authority.

Right? Right.

Yeah. And I've heard that too in in kind of like the the Hebrew part of of the the idea of God is that we don't know his actual name.

Right.

Like his real real name. Like even even just like Yahweh isn't isn't that. Like it's it's maybe the closest thing, but it's not like we have not been able to like like hear it or utter it ever.

Mhmm. Right. Right. And you shouldn't try to. No.

It's one it's it's forbidden for you to kinda get around things and try to Right. Guess at it. Yeah.

It's kind of like a like a blasphemy in its Right. In itself, which maybe that was like, because remember we were talking about, like, Lilith, and one of the things that turned her into Lilith was she uttered the ineffable name of God. Right? Right. Maybe that's the the one.

Right?

Mhmm.

Yeah. But yeah. And it looks like, what John is doing here is giving, sword mouth Jesus kind of the same treatment of Mhmm. He has a name that that no man knew but he himself. Right?

Mhmm. Yeah. Quote, and he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and his name is called the word of God. Right? So popular interpretation says this blood is the blood of his enemies.

Right? The the the people he's he's about to kill. Mhmm. But folks, I don't think that's it. I think this is a reference to Isaiah 63 where God appears with garments stained red from treading the winepress.

And in that passage, yeah, the blood represents judgment on the oppressors, but it could also be the lamb's own blood because remember throughout Revelation, the lamb conquers by being slain. The victory comes through sacrifice, not through, military might.

Mhmm.

Alright? And they you know, the word of God, this is this is picking up on, John's gospel language, in the beginning was the word. Right? This is, Jesus as the logos, the divine expression of God. Mhmm.

And, yeah, let's talk about this sword. Out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite, the nations. So this is where popular interpretation goes full action movie. Right? Jesus has a sword and he's gonna smite people, but folks, the sword is coming out of his mouth.

This isn't a literal weapon. This is the word of God. This is the truth. This is prophetic judgment. Isaiah uses the same imagery.

God's word is like a sharp sword.

Mhmm. Right?

Yeah. So so John isn't describing like a literal battle where Jesus physically kills people with a sword. He is describing the power of truth to judge and defeat empire. The beast is conquered not by military force, but by the word. Right?

But the horse is still there.

The horse is still there.

The horse isn't a metaphorical horse or something as far as I could tell.

That's what John turns around is like, and the horse is a metaphor too? And Jesus is like, no.

No. This is my coworker.

Yeah. His name is Philip. And and the part where, quote, he shall rule them with a rod of iron and he treaded the winepress of the fierceness and the wrath of almighty God. So Mhmm. Rod of iron, right, this shows up in Psalm two, which is about God's anointed king ruling over the nations.

And the winepress imagery, again, right, this is from Isaiah 63, it's a metaphor for judgment. Right? And then verse 17 to 18, we get this really disturbing image. Right? And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he crowd and and he cried with a loud voice saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God

Mhmm.

That ye may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains and the flesh of mighty men. Mhmm. So we just had, you know, the marriage supper of the lamb. Right? This is this is a beautiful banquet for the faithful, and now we have this horrific anti banquet.

Yeah. That's true.

Where where where birds are invited to feast upon, corpses. Right? And folks, you know, this is John pulling from Ezekiel 39, right, where God defeats Gog and Magog and invites birds and wild animals to feast on the slain.

I'm not familiar with Gog and Magog. Are we allowed to make fun of those names? They're bad guys, it sounds like.

They're they did have a brother named Osh.

Great.

That was the first one. Mhmm. And and you always said them in that order.

Yes. Yes.

Try it at home, folks. No. But yeah. But, no, this whole thing, it it's very gruesome. It's meant to be gruesome.

This is what happens to empire. This is what happens to the beast and all who follow him, complete and utter destruction. And then we got verses nineteen and twenty one 19 to 21, the beast and the kings of the earth gather to make war against the rider on the white horse and they lose. Mhmm. The beast and the false prophet are quote cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone, and everyone else is quote slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth.

Mhmm. Now, okay. Oh, go ahead.

Yeah. We talked about this lake of fire yet. We've talked about lakes of fire before.

We've talked about lakes that that's that's how Paradise Lost opens. Right. You know, like with with with the angels with the fallen angels falling into that lake of fire in hell.

Mhmm. Right. Right. So this sounds true, but this is a that's that's part of the trouble is it's not the Lake Of Fire, it's a Lake Of Fire.

But but Keenan Mhmm. Is this is this a Lake of is this is this Lake Of Fire where we all get the Lake Of Fire from?

I don't know. So from what I can see, this is the first time in the Bible that we mention a Lake Of Fire Okay. From what I can tell.

So it's a Lake Of Fire and the Lake Of Fire then.

Well, if sure. I think Milton and them turn it into the Lake Of Fire. But yeah, it doesn't quite say that it's hell here, but it is close to it. Then we're gonna come back to it in the next chapter, that's where death and Hades are thrown into, but it's not a place where they already are. So it is as if I guess what I'm saying is that if we're reading this as literally as some people, is that Jesus has created this lake of fire and then put the, you know, the the powers of hell there.

Mhmm. Right? Is that what you're reading by this?

Okay. If we're yeah. If we're reading this literally

Yes.

And not and not metaphorically, symbolically.

Yeah. Not adding our own conceptions of hell that we that, you know, most of them come later. Right?

No. No. No. I mean I mean, like, if if we're reading this as the popular interpretation Uh-huh. And not as, like, the the political message that John's giving.

Right. Right. Yeah. Yes. I I think I think that's it.

Yeah. He he he creates this lake of fire now. Mhmm. So if we're going with the whole idea that, like, with the popular idea that this that none of this has happened yet.

Mhmm.

And that at the end of the world, Jesus is going to create this lake of fire Right. And throw the antichrist and the false prophet in there Mhmm. And eventually the dragon, I'm imagining.

And death itself.

And death. Yes. Right? Mhmm. Yeah.

Okay. If we're if we're gonna go literal, folks, then you also have to accept that means, a, hell has not been created yet. Right. And b, it only seems like the beast and the false prophet and the dragon go there Mhmm. And not people.

Or am I am I am

I Well, I guess we'll when we when we read it very closely next week, we'll see. It's a bunch of people. I I don't know. I don't know. You'll have to tell me.

That's a question that I have there.

And the rest were slain with the sword.

Right, yeah. So all these things are like Jesus and the angels that work for him are making these things happen. So it reads here that they make the Lake Of fire like they make these birds who eat, you know, who eat the flesh.

I don't think they made the

I mean, they are there aren't like roving bands of birds eat flesh naturally, they're like, hey, come on over here. Like, they they command them to do this.

Right. I think I think the birds exist like like he's it said like the birds up in the heavens.

Right. And he's like, hey. Cab at it.

Similarly Hey. You seagulls and bluebirds and robins and and other birds that don't normally eat flesh.

Right. Mhmm.

Guess what? You're all flesh eaters now.

Yeah. So it feels like here, like if so either there was a lake of fire that now Jesus is commanding as the place where he's gonna send the beast and the fallen prophet, etcetera.

Mhmm.

Mhmm. Or he's created it here for this purpose. Right. But it is not yet hell. It is just a lake of fire.

Yeah. And And this might be the creation myth of hell.

Right. And it's not yet hell Right. In this the last freaking book of the bible.

Right. Yes.

So and, like, yeah, folks, if you've been with us this far, I you already know that hell as we know it isn't really mentioned in the bible. Mhmm. We get we get Sheol. We get Gehenna or Hinom. We get the outer darkness.

Right? There was wailing and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness. Mhmm. And that's I I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Mhmm.

To where? It doesn't say. Right. The ancient Hebrews didn't believe in a in a hell. They they that goes back to what I was talking about shale.

Mhmm. Right. So I yeah. Before before closely reading this, was under the impression, oh, okay. Like, it must be like an amalgam like, hell must have evolved out of, like, an amalgamation of all of these places, and we all just, you know, like, decide.

It's like, okay. All of that is talking about one place and it's hell. Right. And and the the lake of fire in Revelation is like an equal part of that.

Mhmm.

But now, reading this more closely, it seems like it's not an equal part. It seems like it's like 90% of the hell mythos Yes. I just this one thing, this one passage right here.

Right. I would say so. And then, you know, if I'm reading this correctly as well, and then I'll see when we, you know, reread chapter twenty and twenty one and twenty two. We have seen that the beasts come from the void or some kind or the or the oceans or that

kind Or

the abyss. Or the abyss. Right? So it's not that

we Which is different. That's another Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. So we haven't we aren't sending them back to hell. Right. We're putting them there for the first time. Mhmm.

Because they come from abysses and and voids and things and Yes. Yeah, the the waters.

Yeah. Yeah. Or if you like like, if you wanna go ahead and say, it's like, the abyss equals hell, well, this lake of fire is not hell then.

Right. Yes. They seem to be two distinct places.

Yeah. Yeah. So so, yeah, there you go, folks. Like, I'm I'm I don't know I don't know how to feel about this. Like, I feel kinda like, am I am I allowed to feel good about this?

Like, it's like, hey. So the the the the idea that we have of hell, like the whole Dante thing, that's not Mhmm. That's not that's really mentioned. Like, this is like, if you wanna if you wanna look at, like, the biggest influence of hell in the canonical bible Mhmm. It's here in this lake of fire.

And then and then you you just, like, actually look at it, and it's like, oh, okay. Like, it doesn't really necessarily say Mhmm. A lot of the stuff that we the we think or we believe about hell.

Right. Mhmm.

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Alright. Now watch us chapter 21.

Right.

Just literally, oh gosh.

You've gotten

this all wrong. Yeah. That's exactly.

A very specific angel comes down. It's like, two chuckleheads are gonna be very wrong about this, so this is what hell is.

Yeah. That's right.

But, yeah, Keenan, like, your point. Right? That's all that's all if we, like, take this literally popular interpretation. This is like a future event that's gonna happen.

Mhmm.

Right?

Right.

But I think we both agree. Like, we don't think John is describing a a literal future battle. I think he is describing in, again, apocalyptic language, the ultimate defeat of empire. Mhmm. Right?

Of the beast, Rome. Right? And that defeat comes out of not military conquest. Right? The Christians aren't going to, like, overthrow Rome by force, but through the power of truth, the power of faithful witness, right, or aka the word.

Right? So the sword from Jesus' mouth isn't a weapon of violence. It's a proclamation of truth that exposes the beast for what it is and ultimately leads to its downfall. Right? Turns out the beast was in those files.

Right? And and sword mouth Jesus is exposing them. Right? Ew. No.

I don't mean that. You know what I mean. Mhmm. But, yeah, in the lake of fire, right, that's permanent. That's the final defeat.

The beast is done. Empire is done. There's no coming back from this. So maybe okay. This is me just like spitballing now.

Mhmm. Maybe the fire imagery because, you know, definite okay. How do you know something's dead? The birds are eating it. Right?

How do you know something's gone gone? It's been burned up.

Okay. Right.

Mhmm. Right? Like, it's done. Right? So it's like, is empire is Caesar ever coming back?

Is are we gonna have another, like, Rome? Is the beast going to, like, rise up? Is Rome ever going to recover? Well Mhmm. Not if it's, like, burned completely.

Right. Right? And okay. Let's go even further. Right?

How do you how do you make sure something is completely submerged in fire? Make it a lake.

Okay. Right.

Right? So this this could be, like, imagery of like like complete total destruction. Not just not just like, oh, you know, part of the city is burned. Right? And and that part is never coming back because burning equals done gone kaput.

Yeah. It's in a lake of fire.

Mhmm. Right? They're clearly submerged. Yeah. There have been great fires in Rome, and there has been the destruction of Jerusalem before, and and those things.

Right? So, yeah, this is like, no, but for real. For really, really, really gone.

Like like, oh, you mean, like, like, it's it's it's covered in in in flames? No. No. No. Like like, imagine a volcano.

We throw it into the the heart of the volcano. Oh, okay.

Alright. Yeah. Yeah.

So so that could be it right there. It could it could be just like this is this is the most vivid metaphor that you can use that, like, it's not coming back.

Mhmm. Yeah. That's interesting.

And, folks, this is where I wanna, you know, be really careful because this chapter has been used to justify so much violence, so much, like, us versus them, so much, you know, Jesus is coming back to kill everyone we don't like. Mhmm. Right? But I do not think that is what John is saying at all. John is writing to a persecuted minority minority community that has no military power Mhmm.

No political power, no ability to fight back against Rome, and he's telling them, you're gonna win. Not by becoming like Rome, not by taking up swords, not by violence, but by staying faithful, by witnessing the truth, or by by witnessing to the truth, and by refusing to worship the beast. The lamb conquers by being slain. John defeats the beast not with literal military force, but with the word of truth that exposes empire for the lie that it is. And folks, that is our call too.

We are living under an empire right now that wants us to believe that it is invincible, that resistance is futile, that this is just how things are and how they will always be. And we could argue that our job isn't to take up literal swords. Our job is to be our job isn't to become violent. Our job is to speak truth, to witness, to refuse to participate in the beast's system, to be the bride in white linen representing righteous acts, not the whore covered in blood. Mhmm.

And, yeah, right now, it feels like the beast is winning. It feels like the kings of the earth have all the power. Right? We're watching ICE raids tear families apart. We're watching people die in detention centers.

We're watching cruelty become policy. We're not watching it. It has. It has become policy. Mhmm.

But John's message to his community and to us is this isn't the end of the story. The beast loses, empire falls, truth wins. Not because God is gonna, you know, supernaturally intervene and, you know, smite everyone, but because systems built on lies and violence and oppression cannot stand forever. The word of truth, the the sword out of Jesus' mouth eventually cuts through all of it. And in the meantime, we're called to be faithful, to to keep speaking the truth, to keep witnessing, to keep being that bride, right?

To keep choosing righteousness over complicity even when it costs us, right, because the marriage supper is coming, the celebration is coming, the beast is gonna fall and we're gonna be there dressed in that white linen representing all the the righteous acts we did while we were waiting, all the times we chose humanity over empire, all the times we refused to bow to the beast. So yeah. So hold on folks. Keep witnessing. Keep speaking truth.

The rider on the white horse isn't coming, you know, to save us from the fight. He's already fighting with us, and and the sword coming from his mouth is the truth that we, that you, are speaking right now. And the beast the beast is already defeated. It just doesn't know it yet. And, yeah, we kinda you know, we joked about it earlier, but I can't help but thinking about those those Epstein files.

Mhmm. Right? Like, the whole idea that it's like, oh, you know, it's like, we're we're releasing them bit by bit. Right? And and, know, there's there's all these redactions.

There's all this, like, you know, blacked out stuff, hidden stuff. Right? And and it seems like, oh, yeah. Dang. We're never gonna know.

The truth is never gonna come out. But guess what? Other countries, France and Germany, have already released the full unredacted files. Mhmm. So, I mean, that just I don't know.

Like, that that just lightens my heart a little bit thinking that no no no bad secret can stay a secret forever.

Mhmm.

Right? Like, because because this stuff is, you know, this is this is documentation from, like, years and years and years ago. Right? Mhmm. And it, like, it it took a while, but it's eventually coming out.

Mhmm. Right? And I feel like that's gonna be the way of that that's my hope is that the like, in everything, the truth will out. Mhmm. Right?

Whether it's a hard truth or or an easy truth, it's it like, it's it's gonna it's gonna float to the top. You know? Mhmm. Yeah. So, yeah, folks, like, hold on and keep on holding on.

Mhmm. And if you're not tired of us reading and interpreting this this this this crazy, crazy book of the Bible, stick with us because we're almost done. This was '19. We got what? 2021, '22.

We're almost done.

Almost at the end.

Yeah. But what did we Keenan, what did we think of this chapter in particular?

Oh, no. I'm looking forward to, yeah, doing some deep readings. I'm willing to be wrong about what I think it's saying about hell, so I'm looking forward to, yeah, to what you come up with next week as well.

Yeah. Yeah. No. This is this is you you you kinda dropped a bomb on me in this one. And see how I'm being figurative there too, folks?

It's yeah. No. But, yeah, the idea the like, oh gosh. Like, just our whole idea of hell might have come from this one book of of questionable authority. Right.

Mhmm. Yeah. But, yeah, folks, this has been another episode of the Devil's Details. I've been Lester Ryan Clark. You can summon me on all the socials as Lester Ryan Clark.

And I've been Keenan Diaz, and you can invoke me on Instagram and Letterbox at Howdy Keenan.

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