[00:00:00] ​ [00:01:09] Phil: What's up everyone. Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sandy Mangat, head of marketing at Pocus. [00:01:16] About Sandy --- [00:01:16] Phil: Sandy is based in beautiful Vancouver, BC, where she got her start at G digital and product marketing. She later moved on to thought wire, a tech company specializing in smart building. She then joined Charlie AI, a multidimensional AI company specializing in the finance sector. [00:01:31] And today, like I said, Sandy is head of marketing at Pocus and AI native prospecting platform trusted by high growth tech companies like Asana, Monday, Canva, Miro. Sandy, super pumped to chat with you today. Thanks so much for your time. [00:01:44] Sandy: Really appreciate you having me on, Phil. So excited for this conversation. [00:01:48] ​ [00:01:48] Phil: [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] We have a fun conversation planned for today. A bit of a break from the more typical marketing Martech topics. [00:04:09] Uh, I think that maybe after marketing attribution, Outbound marketing might be the most divisive topic in marketing, not only sales, some swear by it while others, especially in marketing can't stand outbound and they call it spam. Uh, we'll unpack that there, but like for me, old outbound is like spam blasting, burning bridges, new outbound. [00:04:30] Like what you guys are doing at Pocus is AI native precision targeting, giving people relevant, thoughtful content. And you guys are betting on intense signals and not that spam. Spray and pray approach that, um, defines a lot of prospecting today. So I'm hoping that today's conversation will explore both ends of that spectrum, like how outbound has evolved and where AI prospecting is going to take us next. [00:04:54] Outbound Needs a Cold Hard Reset --- [00:04:54] Phil: But maybe we can start with your thoughts on this. Like, do you think outbound needs a [00:05:00] reset based on what you've seen? Like the problem isn't necessarily the tools, but it's like how people haven't abused them over the past couple of years, like choosing volume over targeting, skipping training, creating this like vicious cycle of spam that everyone has in their inbox. [00:05:16] How do we fix this, Sandy? Like, and what do you think prospecting is probably the biggest opportunity area for AI and sales? [00:05:23] Sandy: Yeah, and that's that's the million dollar question. Um, I, I firmly believe outbound does need a reset. Um, I think there's a lot of hot takes on the internet about outbound is dead. Nobody wants to do outbound anymore. And I think those are, kind of like grossly overblown and just, you know, LinkedIn influencing gone wrong. [00:05:45] Um, but Outbound does need a reset. Like it's, it, it, what you just said is so accurate. Outbound has become really spammy. It has become this like, you know, volume chasing game. It's not thoughtful. It's not [00:06:00] strategic. Um, and people are trying to find the shortcuts. Like everybody wants the shortcut to try and like, You know, game the system, get meetings, um, and really losing sight of what is the goal of outbound and really thinking from first principles about what outbound is going to do for your go to market motion. [00:06:21] Um, and for your sellers, like sales is about relationships. Sales is about meeting people. How do you meet people? You got to go and find people to talk to. And that's quite, that's like quite as simple as I think about Bound. It's like, you are trying to build relationships with people you don't know. Um, and there's like many different avenues you can take to try and do that. [00:06:45] You can go to events, You can call the cold, call them, you can send them an email, you can send them a very thoughtful LinkedIn message. Those are kind of like all, you know, different flavors of outbound in a way. Um, but the, [00:07:00] like, you can't have a sales organization without it. How are you going to meet people? [00:07:04] Unless you are the world's like best company and everything is inbound. But even the companies that do have just like insane inbound eventually need an outbound motion because the well does start drying up. You introduce new product SKUs that have a brand new market. Like, how are you going to get in front of those customers? [00:07:25] I think there's always going to be a need for outbound in your motion. Um, but I think the way that. We've come to think of outbound is just wrong. Um, and it's come to be this, like, dirty word associated with, like, poorly personalized, spray and pray, like, not thoughtful messaging when really outbound should be extremely strategic. [00:07:51] It's about building relationships, building trust, and kind of meeting your, your potential buyer at the right moment. [00:07:58] Phil: Yes. That's a great point. I had a [00:08:00] short stint in my career where I worked like I saw the two extremes of, of what you just talked about. So I worked at a CRM company close. com kind of competing with the HubSpot CRM in, in the lower tier market, like SMB market. And I had to like. Create a bunch of content about cold outreach and cold calling. [00:08:18] And we were building a lot of tooling for that. So it was like a new, like I had to get like a mini MBA in sales as part of that experience. And I moved on from that role to wordpress. com, which is a bit what you said, like the whole inbound engine, like WordPress got an insane number of traffic just from. [00:08:36] The brand and people knowing it. Like I want to build a website. I'm, I'm going to like Squarebrae is Squarespace or WordPress and maybe wet float what flows in that conversation now, but those that we didn't have a sales team at WordPress, but there was a WordPress VIP like department or different team, essentially that was all enterprise and like half of that team was sales and eventually even part of the wordpress. [00:08:59] [00:09:00] com business was split out. And we built a sales team to have this like service arm to the business for people that just. Wanted to have a site built for them. And part of that motion was focusing a bit on outbound and we couldn't just rely on converting that inbound into like the, the sales lad side. [00:09:16] So it's really interesting going from a world where it was like all about sales to a world that didn't have a sales team, but eventually did hire in a sales team. So I got like both extremes of that world, if you will. [00:09:29] Sandy: And, you know, [00:09:30] Building Sales Teams for Product Led Growth Companies --- [00:09:30] Sandy: Pocus started with, uh, kind of like the PLG segment being our ideal customer. And now we've expanded, but like, PLG is where we started. And the kind of early, uh, You know, thesis around PLG is like your product does all the selling. You don't need sellers. And then the dirty little secret is like, literally all of these companies have sales teams. [00:09:53] They just use them differently. And so in, uh, PLG companies, and, uh, this is kind of like the, [00:10:00] the category we really coined around product led sales, it's like. It's you're using those product signals that are giving you these like warm signals about when there is a potential expansion opportunity, there's a potential conversion opportunity, whatever it might be. [00:10:15] Um, so like, that's what we call a flavor of warm outbound. And so those companies need sales teams to capitalize on that warm outbound. But even those customers of ours, the Miro's, the Asana's, the Canva's, they're all exploring. Cold as well, because they know that it's a cyclical thing. Like, there are going to be time or like, think of it as like, having a financial portfolio. [00:10:41] Like, you always need something to hedge your bets, um, for a variety of reasons, like, especially if you are thinking about, um, expansion in any shape or form, whether it's product expansion, you say, use case, expansion, geographical expansion, outbound is a great way. To [00:11:00] do early testing in, you know, new markets with new products. [00:11:05] It's, it's a really great fast feedback loop for you. [00:11:08] Phil: Yeah. [00:11:08] How Product Led Sales Teams Time Their Customer Outreach --- [00:11:08] Phil: I love the color for product led sales. Uh, this was described by someone else on the show. And I'm curious to get your, your definition on this or like how you guys are thinking about this, but it's essentially similar to the product led like growth motion where instead of having a gated demo form on our site and you need to chat with a salesperson to get. [00:11:31] Any type of overview of the product, the product led sales, similar to product, like product led growth is you give this like free trial or free use of the product. So people can come in, get a taste of it themselves, play around with it. But there are certain parts where you get hit with limits and just like in product, like growth, like maybe. [00:11:52] That's automated stuff, but on the product led sales side, you're a bit upper market. And that's where like, uh, an email from [00:12:00] a sales rep, as opposed to just being like automated from the marketing team, then you jump onto like, Hey, if you want to have access to that feature, chat with the salesperson, then you have to book a demo. [00:12:09] Like, is that how you think of it a bit? What, what's your definition of it? [00:12:13] Sandy: Yeah. For us, like product led sales is all about, you know, uncovering the right moments to layer in a human. So PLG companies have these really robust PLG flywheels where largely everything can be done self serve, but there's always going to be certain segments of your market that need that human touch for various reasons. [00:12:36] It's really hard to drive like wall to wall enterprise deals, you know, in a fully PLG way, you're going to need people. And so, but like knowing when the right moment to apply those resources, like. You don't want to reach out to every single free trial user because they're not all going to be potentially high lifetime value or potential enterprise customers. [00:12:56] So knowing when to reach out, who to reach out to [00:13:00] and why is what we think of as that product. Let's sales motion and it can be like, depending on your go to market motion. Playbooks can be applied at different parts of the cycle. Maybe, um, you're really good at already converting, like, free users to paid. [00:13:17] That's maybe not where you want to put the sales resources, but expansion is. Is the, the thing that's hard to do, or it could be the opposite. Like you have a naturally expanding use case. So expansion can be relatively low touch, no humans in the loop, but the acquisition piece is where you want more of the handholding because you have a complex product and it requires humans in the loop in order to get somebody activated. [00:13:41] But once they're activated, then you kind of have like an easier time with that expansion. So all kind of depends on what your goals are. [00:13:48] Phil: Gotcha. Yeah. And I feel like. Pocus does do not just the product led sales stuff. Like you said, like there is a whole prospecting motion to this and we'll do, we'll get into signals in [00:14:00] a second here, but [00:14:00] Network-based Sales vs Signal-powered Outbound --- [00:14:00] Phil: I wanted to start by kind of introducing the topic by asking you about, like, I have a buddy who is in like a new newly founder and he's like, Wearing a sales hat for the first time in his career. [00:14:13] And he's debating like, how does he go to market and how to like reach out to potential deals. And I'm dealing with that myself, like full time on the podcast. Now I'm like wearing a sales hat and doing a lot of sponsorship calls and stuff like that. And so in, in our research there, there is one other contrasted with a cold prospecting, if you will. [00:14:36] And, um, folks are calling this kind of the future of sales is. Go to network and that their opinion, and they're obviously like polarized here, but they say that cold prospecting should die. So go to network essentially for them, like means like rather than doing a cold call or even like warm outbound, kind of how you're, you guys are coining it. [00:14:56] It's better to try and get an intro from someone [00:15:00] in your network as like a foot in the door. And so there's a few companies that do this, like they've automated that like warm intro process. So like right now doing it manually, I have to like find who I want to chat with. I look on LinkedIn to see who I'm, I've got like a first degree or second degree connection with them. [00:15:17] I do a manual intro, like, Hey, you can introduce me to that person, blah, blah, blah. And then like eventually at some point you get that intro and you do it, but they've automated the process so that. The, the, the worm outreach for asking for the intro is automated, whatever. But I find it interesting because it's a bit contrasted with what Pocus is built for, like signals to warm up your outbound and personalize your message as opposed to like finding people that can get you a foot in the door. [00:15:44] Right. Um, so this is using your like contacts to make intros, like I said. Um, but let's say that. It mere or that founder, like a rev ops team is debating signal powered outbound like Pocus does versus this automated, like network [00:16:00] intros as their first investment or their next investment. Like, how would you make the case for signals over network? [00:16:08] Sandy: I don't think it's a conversation of signals over network. Like, I don't think it's black and white. I think it depends on what stage of company you are, what type of market you're in and what, um, kind of your goals are. So in the early days of focus, like the 1st year, I would say. Our, our pipeline was like entirely network generated, and that's the case for a lot of early stage companies. [00:16:31] And so I would say like, if you're early stage, yeah, activate your network. Like that is going to be the fastest path to getting sales conversations. Um, but as you mature, I don't think you can overly rely on that for a couple of reasons. One is that, um, kind of like You know, circle of people that you can reach out to is necessarily limited, right? [00:16:57] It is it is constrained. There's some, like, very [00:17:00] real constraints there, um, based on, you know, you're looking at who's the 1st degree connection of your team. So, like, you're constrained by your team size. Maybe you're constrained by, like. Kind of, if you're thinking about it as like, also activating your customers and audience, then you're constrained by the size of your customers and audience. [00:17:18] Um, and then you're also constrained by the willingness of people to make intros for you. Um, and kind of, you know, what, what is the, upside for them to do that. Um, and so there, I think it's an important like piece of the puzzle and has been incredible for us. I would say like still about like 10 percent of our overall pipeline is coming from network sourced conversations. [00:17:44] Um, but it can't be like the only thing, like I wouldn't ever make that contrast of like, it's an either or it's probably both. Um, I think what's really powerful is when you combine that. With signals and you create [00:18:00] this like holistic motion of there's, there's just like, you know, creating optionality for your reps of like, what is the path into an account? [00:18:09] Is it through an intro? Is it cold? Like, you know, and then where tools like focus, I think come in is like that the orchestration of those options, um, across signals, across intros, um, and giving you, giving reps like more of a prescriptive approach to figuring out what is the right path forward for them. [00:18:31] Phil: Gotcha. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Uh, the way they explain it is like, you know, first degree is where you start, but there are a lot of second degree connections that have a good relationship with someone that you have a first degree connection with and they automate that touch point with that person too. [00:18:46] And they have like a diagram that shows like, you know, you, you know, Your connections are actually pretty massive. But I get, I love your point about like, it's, it's not one or the other. Obviously like this is a bit tongue in cheek, but if you had to [00:19:00] like debate one or the other, I feel like to summarize your answer, [00:19:03] Building Trust Through Network Referrals in Modern Sales --- [00:19:03] Phil: like it's not one or the other, there's definitely like a mix of the two, but early on, like Pocus did, like it was a bit more. [00:19:09] Go to network warm introductions. Cause there is like that credibility element to it, right? Like the cold outreach piece is like, I have no idea who you are, dude. Like, how did you get into my inbox? I have no need for your product right now, but if I get an email from someone that I've worked with that I trust really a lot, and they're just like, Hey, I'm using this tool. [00:19:29] They're awesome. You might not need this right now, but like, I think it's worth a conversation to check out the product. Like I'm probably going to do that call. Cause I had that like credible reference from someone that I know. [00:19:40] Sandy: yeah. And I think like referral networks is like a thing that's been around forever, right? Like referrals are, uh, the lifeblood of a lot of, you know, other types of businesses. Um, my husband's a lawyer, he has a law firm, like their entire business runs on referrals, like they get all of their pipeline from first [00:20:00] degree, second degree connections through their partnerships. [00:20:02] With like accounting firms or, you know, other happy customers. So I think it's always going to be a part of the mix and I think you're right. Like the, the way to frame it is, um, when, when to lean into that versus when you might want to explore it. The kind of outside the realm of just your network, because even if it's like, I can get that connection to a second degree person, and maybe a third, it's like, wouldn't have just been faster if I maybe like, did that outreach, like, what, it's hard to quantify actually that value of, um, of, uh, the, Referral, like it depends, it entirely depends on the strength of that relationship. [00:20:46] And I think a way to kind of like get at the same thing is, um, what you're really trying to do is like the, the credibility is the key. Um, when you're an early startup, you have no [00:21:00] credibility. Um, nobody knows you, you have no authority. And so another way to get at credibility and authority, and this is part of our like. [00:21:07] Um, focuses warm prospecting framework. It's the a and warm. It's authority. It's like, you need to build authority. So that's about, like, being an expert on a topic. It's, it's having, you know, personalities in your company. Creating content around that topic and, like, talking about it loudly and then becoming known for that expertise. [00:21:28] also then translates into kind of like having somebody be willing to open your email. It's like, Oh, I've, I've heard of this company because somebody sent me a piece of content that they created, like, and I thought it was very good. And they seem to know what they're talking about. [00:21:45] Uncovering Genuine Interest Through Signal Correlation --- [00:21:45] Phil: I think the "R" in that like warm model is. Relevance Right. And like, maybe we can chat about like that, that piece there on personalization and like genuine interest when it comes to prospecting, um, like lots of [00:22:00] folks hype up personalization as like the key to boost open rates when you're doing outreach. Um, but I think as you guys have explained it, and it's my experience to like relevance, context, value, like that's what drives people to do it. [00:22:13] Even have that willingness to, to have a conversation. Um, and for Pocus, this means like targeting accounts based on meaningful signals, like spikes in web visits, product usage, relevant job postings. Like lots of folks get excited about these like privacy skirting tools that de anonymize web visits into emails for outreach. [00:22:33] I personally hate them. Uh, we don't need to like unpack that if, if you love them. Um, I've had debates on the show about this, but like, I don't know. Um, I've used them, haven't had great success with it, but like, how do we truly uncover genuine interest? Like, even though I've viewed your site a couple of times, like, doesn't mean I have genuine interest to buy right now. [00:22:54] Just like when I'm shopping in a mall and I'm browsing in your store and the sales rep is like hovering over my shoulder. [00:23:00] Like, Hey, do you need anything? Do you have, do you have a question for me? Like, dude, I'm just browsing. Like, how do you uncover genuine interest? Maybe we can chat about that. [00:23:09] Sandy: and it's not just a, um, about like the single signal, right? Like, you should never view these signals in isolation. And I think, um, you know, that that's maybe kind of like where people's gripes come in with these de anonymization, especially like at the identity level for website visitors. I think that, um, Plus another signal would give you maybe something more interesting to say you'd get more context. [00:23:36] So, like, the power of signals compounds when you are combining them and you should never be reaching out and saying, like, I saw you checked out my website. Like, that is just creepy and, like, bad tactics. It should be, the, the signal is giving you a clue into why this person potentially could be interested, but, like, they don't [00:24:00] need to be interested. [00:24:01] They may not be. So, the, you need to, like, it's like you're investigating. Like, you need to put all the clues together, and then that paints a holistic picture of what's happening. And then once you have that holistic picture, you can make a decision of whether. It's worthwhile for you to reach out or not. [00:24:19] Um, and that's really kind of where Pocus plays. It's, it's where we're trying to take that guesswork out of it for, for reps to say, like, we've looked at the clues and we've decided, like, this is why you should reach out and, and hear some context on, on why we think this rises to the level of you need to engage. [00:24:38] Um, but I think the main thing there is, is never viewing these in isolation. And then also. You shouldn't ever be chasing like the exact same signals as everybody else. I think like what we're going to see in 2025. Because of AI, it kind of unlocks this for us, is like really being focused on unique [00:25:00] signals, like things that matter to you and your business. [00:25:02] Um, there's a lot of signals that like everybody else is going to have, like funding round is probably the most abused. Like have you gotten an email that's like, Oh, I saw your company raised a funding round. Let me annoy you now. Um, One, that message is not valuable to me. Um, and Yes, that's a triggering event. [00:25:22] Like, we raise money, so maybe we have more money to spend on your software. But unless you're telling me, like, why your software matters, I think that's just spam, and I'm going to immediately ignore. So, I think finding something unique to say, and that's really where we focus is, like, how can we give, like, really rich context, um, and how can we find, like, the most relevant. [00:25:47] Signals to your business, not just like signals that everybody cares about. [00:25:52] Phil: Yeah. Such a good point. I've gotten so many of those, like, congratulations on that series of funding. And it's like, dude, I'm not a founder. Like I [00:26:00] gained nothing by that. If anything, it gave our team an extra six months of lifespan. Like congrats on lasting another six months in your startup. Like, awesome. [00:26:09] Thank you. I got three of the same emails. I know that. Part of this is automated. There's no value, no real like genuine, no, no real like effort to try to uncover genuine interest, I guess, in that, like, it just feels lazy, like you said, but [00:26:25] Lead Scoring vs Signals --- [00:26:25] Phil: the first time I heard signals was. Like a moment of just like, Oh, this is cool. [00:26:30] Like I've never heard of signals before and dived into it. I forget like, who is the person who like coined this, but I like immediately discovered that signals just felt like a rebrand of lead scoring, like with a trendier label, like lead scoring has always been about tracking engagement and attributes and demographics, firm graphics, product interactions. [00:26:51] And like, I just feel like it's a bit of a rebrand, but like maybe tongue in cheek question there, like in your five step signal playbook, step two is actually to [00:27:00] score accounts based on the signals that happen. Like what makes signals fundamentally different beyond the buzzword appeal? Like, is it a different methodology? [00:27:08] Something else than lead scoring? Is there a difference to you? [00:27:12] Sandy: I think it's a, it's a form factor thing. So the way that scores have been delivered to reps historically has been like, it's a black box. Like they get a score, they get like a list of scored leads. Um, the worst I've seen is like, you know, it's, it's a number that's like kind of not valuable to a sales rep. [00:27:30] It's like, this account is an 85. Like what is a rep supposed to do with that? I don't think they know. They just, they have to take your word for it. First of all, which reps don't like doing for good reason. Um, and then they're working that account, but they're not getting any additional context. So the fundamental difference to me, I think scoring is still important. [00:27:53] Scoring is like a scaled approach to try and kind of, like, prioritize and segment [00:28:00] your overall book of business. But if you're thinking about, like, the plays you should be running on a week to week basis, those need to be signal driven. Um, and Like, and like I said, you know, now we have more options than ever before in terms of signals. [00:28:15] There's like your 1st party signals. There's a lot of, like, 3rd party signals. But then what what's really cool is like, those unique AI driven signals that would allow you to. Previously have required your sales rep to go and like, read a 10 K or, uh, listen to a podcast with, you know, the execs on within that account. [00:28:34] And now they can get those things like, kind of proactively surface to them as alerts. Um, and and so that's the big difference I think about in terms of scoring and signals. It's like. Form factor and then use case. Like I think scoring is still valuable. It's really helpful, obviously for marketers when thinking about segmenting accounts, um, you know, for ABM plays, like which, which are, which are my [00:29:00] tier one accounts that I want to like run my, um, most kind of like robust, you know, Ads program and like scaled ABM tactics too. [00:29:08] Um, and then what are the accounts that are maybe like, you know, not necessarily my top tier and I don't want to focus on. Um, so scoring certainly helps on that, like, kind of like bulk. I would say like bulk enrichment of your book of business and mapping your TAM. Um, but for kind of more tactical day to day, like how reps are really thinking about how to work. [00:29:34] I think that's where signals come in. [00:29:37] ​ [00:29:37] Phil: [00:30:00] [00:31:00] Gotcha. I think that's super helpful. I definitely agree that a lot of. Lead scoring models are a bit of a black box, especially when you try out third parties, um, that try to predict that score based on historical data, it gets even more black boxy, but there's some good vendors that allow you to click on that score and you can like drill down on the activity [00:32:00] log and see like how that number came to be. [00:32:02] And it's almost like a multi touch attribution way of looking at like how the score, like this is essentially there. It's Trackable customer journey. And this is how that score came to be. But yeah, to your point, it is oftentimes more of a conversational tactic between sales and marketing. There's a lot of like learning on the marketing side from sales, because even though the data points, something historically. [00:32:26] Something shifted in the market and in the next three months, sales knows that this competitor, and when this comes up in conversations and in gong, and that should be part of the model. Like it's an ever evolving, uh, kind of way to think about it. Right. Yeah. [00:32:41] Sandy: that's why, you know, we have scoring and focus, but like the way that we built it is so that it, you as a rev ops person or, you know, marketing ops person can go in and Easily make edits to the score. So it's balancing that art and science. As you said, like, you should be talking to the field [00:33:00] learning and then applying that back into the score. [00:33:04] And historically, it's been hard to do if you have like, you know, All you have is like this one very sophisticated data science driven propensity model that's like hard to edit. Um, and you know, there's, there's room for that too, but I think it's, it's about like thinking through the use case for how you're going to use it practically and then working backwards from there. [00:33:28] Phil: Yeah, I remember Mixpanel was one of the first companies that came out with, uh, like, predictive scoring. They put people into, like, four buckets based on the data they had on them and, like, likely to convert versus, like, really, like, sleeping leads that were never gonna convert. But like it stopped there. [00:33:47] Like there was even like a word in there that said like, you know, we're working on, uh, demystifying some of the algorithms behind this, but for now, like, this is all we're giving away. And, um, I remember trying to like run this [00:34:00] in front of the sales team and introducing them to it and people were just like rolling their eyes. [00:34:04] Like, dude, like we don't trust this. Like I had a few that were like interested in at least giving it a shot. To see if it helped them in their day to day. But we ended up just going back to the manual lead scoring mechanism that we had, that was tried and trusted. [00:34:20] Sandy: Yeah, it also depends on your business and the scale. Like, you need a lot of data. There's, there's a lot of companies. I mean, we started in PLG, so we know, like, they have tons of data on this. And, like, all those companies are using it. Those models on the PLG side, because you just have so much data to work with. [00:34:40] And so you do start to detect patterns. But yeah, like, the market is always changing. You may decide to change segments. You may introduce new products and, um, you know, the scores aren't going to necessarily help you in those cases. [00:34:54] Phil: Yeah. I, every, and I've done these a bunch of times in my career, like lead scoring, lead management [00:35:00] endeavors. Like the one thing that stands true is that. The people that converted the most were the ones that raised their hands and said, like, I want to talk to sales, or I want to demo, or like, I want to have a buying conversation about this. [00:35:13] Like some folks call this MQLs, but like maybe we can chat about like some of the earlier signals, like [00:35:19] Marketing Signals Actually Worth Your Time --- [00:35:19] Phil: in the guide to warm outbound, um, that Pocus has on the site, like, um, you're downplaying like marketing engagements a little bit, like things like content downloads. Might not always be a useful signal. [00:35:32] Um, the signals you recommend looking for instead are things like pricing page visits and event attendance. And for me, like still those two things. And, uh, the previous one, the content download ones like are in your pretty basic lead scoring model. And they're also like widely considered classic marketing engagement indicators. [00:35:52] Do you think that the issue is less about like the type of engagement and more about the context and the intent behind it? Like I could [00:36:00] visit your pricing page because I'm thinking of buying and I'm building an internal pitch for it, but I could also be looking at the pricing page because I just, I'm just curious to see if you're showing it or not. [00:36:10] And I have no interest in your tool. I could be attending an event because I want to learn about the product. I don't want to meet folks from the team. Or I could just be attending because I want the free margarita that you guys are offering. Right? Like, how do we define the threshold where marketing engagement becomes actionable instead of just like dismissing content downloads as something that's useful? [00:36:30] Like, what are your thoughts on combining multiple engagement signals to create a more accurate picture instead of just focusing on a couple of, uh, intense signals? [00:36:40] Sandy: Yeah, and our customers, to be clear, like, are combining some of those marketing engagement, um, like, signals into their overall plays. But again, like I said, it's, it's about, like, it's one clue. It's part of, like, this, like, vast amount of clues that probably exist and, and knowing [00:37:00] kind of, like, how those interact with each other will give you, like, the full picture of what is actually happening. [00:37:07] Um, I think intent. Has always been kind of like hard to pin down. It is like something we are guessing at. Um, and so it is, it is about taking a hypothesis driven approach as well. Like what we encourage our customers to do is, you know, you have a goal. There's probably like different plays you could be testing in order to see which one converts higher towards that goal. [00:37:30] Um, and there are probably some businesses where like that marketing engagement is Is a better indicator of there being intent and there are probably other businesses where, you know, maybe the marketing content kind of sucks. And and so a download actually doesn't mean that much because it wasn't that valuable to begin with. [00:37:51] So I think it is like nuance. Um, but yeah, I wouldn't dismiss, dismiss marketing engagement outright. I think the thing [00:38:00] that has got like the, the kind of like conversation that muddies this is I think for a long time now, sales teams have been MQLs kind of suck. Like marketing keeps on sending me these MQLs. [00:38:13] They're not converting. Like I'm just going to ignore them. And so this goes back to the scoring thing. Like. You know, the, the kind of blanket MQL, that's like a little mystical is not helpful, but like, maybe saying this, this specific piece of content. And, like, why we think them downloading this is rises to the level of, you should reach out and it probably isn't just 1 person downloaded piece of content. [00:38:40] I think, um. Like that might be a reason to reach out, but the expectation should not be that you're going to get an opportunity out of that. Like that's just not how it works. Um, you should reach out to understand, Hey, why did you download this? Like, is there something you're trying to like, learn, can I help you learn [00:39:00] more? [00:39:00] Um, and it's about nurturing. I feel like those marketing engagement signals are always indicators that maybe there's curiosity. Um, and if they're an ICP fit, like, how can I nurture that curiosity to the point that they do want to maybe talk to me about the product. [00:39:17] Phil: Yeah. It's, uh, I agree. I think that like the whole MQL debate is, is probably a whole other, uh, separate episode there. But, uh, [00:39:26] AI Powered Sales Outreach That Actually Works --- [00:39:26] Phil: I'm curious to ask you, like, so we talked about like signals for job changes, funding announcements, and like team growth, classic firmographic demographic signals. These have been around for years. [00:39:36] Like they're maybe easier today to, to get access to and put it all One place because of AI and automation. Um, what's next after this? Like, what do you think is like putting this into a separate level? Like, do you think at some point we're going to be adding too many data points that like, like you said, it's like some of the scoring models are just going to get like too muddied and it'll be too [00:40:00] hard to get actionable insights out of this. [00:40:02] Like, how do you prevent signal overload from ensuring relevance? And what do you think is like next after just aggregating all of that and being like, here sales, this is all the signals, like go out and reach out to folks. Like, how can we make this even easier? [00:40:19] Sandy: yeah, and this is where the, like, our perspective is tooling, like, the kind of, like, 1st generation of go to market tooling has been very much, um, putting the onus either on. Rev ops or on reps themselves to go and figure out what to do. Like, you know, you think of sales now, you think of zoom info, a lot of these tools, the log you log in, and then there's just like a search bar and you got to go like figure out the filters. [00:40:48] You got to go search for things. You have to put it together yourself. Um, so one, we've now kind of like eliminated one of those steps, which is like, you know, Consolidating the data in one place, but [00:41:00] then the next step is also to be prescriptive with what should I do next? So, like, how do I tap reps on the shoulder and be proactive as opposed to, um, kind of, like, leaving them to try and figure it out? [00:41:14] Because there is a lot of data and this is where AI is like incredible. AI is most useful when there's a vast amount of information and you need to synthesize it and like bubble up what is important. And so we think about it as like proactive alerts, tapping reps on the shoulder. Like, One of the hardest things about sales, and I have built so much empathy around this because I've done prospecting now, um, and kind of, you know, I'm owning the outbound initiative for Pocus. [00:41:44] It is really hard to keep track of even just 20 accounts, especially if they're enterprise accounts, all the different potential moments to engage with them. Like there's always something happening. There's always potentially a reason to reach out. [00:42:00] And. Like the best reps are the ones that stay top of mind, but historically reps have only been able to do that maybe for like two or three accounts per week. [00:42:09] That's where they apply their like strategic brains to have the, I'm going to continue staying top of mind, adding value, finding more people within the account, what. Tooling and AI specifically unlocks now is just being able to do that strategic outbound, um, at scale so that, you know, you can scale that, the, the workflow of your best rep to more accounts and to more reps. [00:42:33] So more of your reps are going to do it, and they're going to do it across a larger book of business, um, because AI is kind of doing the background monitoring of those accounts. You, the rep, are not monitoring them. AI is monitoring it for you, and just surfacing when is, when are these like moments for you to engage. [00:42:51] Um, And then the other piece of it is like driving at more relevancy. Like I said, kind of, you know, we're no [00:43:00] longer locked into. I'm going to use the same database of information as everybody else. I have now have the power to kind of build more custom insights. Um, that are hyper relevant to me and my business because the AI is going to tap into my data, my internal systems, my CRM, my call recordings. [00:43:18] It's going to extract these insights and it's going to marry them with other information that it finds on the internet and give me these like very unique insights that, um, I wouldn't get from just like a database that everybody else has access to. [00:43:31] Phil: Very cool. So less about like, like [00:43:35] How AI Agents Transform Sales Rep Workflows --- [00:43:35] Phil: one thing you guys have on your site in a few places is like, and companies are like wary about using agentic and like AI agents as terminology to explain some of this stuff, but you're almost describing this world where instead of instructing AI agents to do certain things, like the rep logs in and the rep knows like, all right, these are the most active accounts, these are signals. [00:43:59] Like emails I want to [00:44:00] send out, like here, agent, like enrich part of this data and help me craft an email to send it out. And you're like instructing agent by agent, task by task versus this world. That's like a bit more ambient with your setup. And the agent is like. In the background. And when you're logging in, you're not deciding what to do next and instructing an AI to do something. [00:44:22] The AI agent is telling you at login, like this is the next best thing to spend your time on. Like, is that where we're kind of heading? Like, uh, in Pocus. [00:44:33] Sandy: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, there's opportunities to, like, interact. Um, like, let's say you have more questions, like, in, in Pocus, you can go and chat with, with the AI for a specific account and, like, say, like, tell me more about this one insight that you surfaced. So there are opportunities to engage, but the, the core value is that, like, the agent is just kind of working on your behalf and replacing a lot of the tasks that you would have [00:45:00] had to do, like, from researching. [00:45:03] Um, figuring out which accounts to prioritize within a given day, finding the contacts that you should be reaching out to. Um, and then even so far as like drafting the first email or the message that you're going to send. [00:45:16] Phil: Super cool. Like when we get into conversations like this on the show, I'm, [00:45:20] Building High Performance Sales Teams in the AI Era --- [00:45:20] Phil: I'm putting myself like in the shoes of folks that are maybe like a bit earlier in their careers. And like, when I was first, like last year doing this deep dive on, on agents and AI and how it's impacting marketing today and what that world is going to look like in like five, 10 years, there is like excitement, but there's also like a part of you that's like. [00:45:40] Creeping doubt, right? Like, what am I going to be doing in 5, 10 years? Like, what is that world going to look like? Like, if I can augment humans to be exponentially more productive and marketers to be way more productive, at what point does tooling and and like vendors Help you become indistinguishable from like [00:46:00] replacement in the eyes of like leadership that are chasing cost savings. [00:46:04] Like, how do you think about that as like a practitioner who is building a team and like still being mindful of budget and saving costs, but like not wanting to replace humans entirely with like automating processes. [00:46:18] Sandy: Yeah, I think, you know, like, and a lot of people have probably already said this, so it's not controversial, but there will be. I think a rise of just smaller, more nimble teams. So I think the way that like you used to solve a Pipe gen problem was we just need more bodies. Like if we have more bodies, we can send more emails We can we can kind of like game the system that way and I just think like the it's shifting to you You probably will have fewer reps, but like those reps are going to be able to do more Um, and then maybe there are like new roles [00:47:00] that crop, uh, like crop up because of this. [00:47:03] I, I think as much as AI may Like reduce certain roles. It's equally going to create new roles Um, I think that that's obviously a little harder to like figure out I'm sure we could have a whole other podcast just thinking like ideating on what that future could look like Um, but I think right now one we're a little far away from that and I think right now the main benefit is Augmenting and assisting to make everybody better at what they do. [00:47:34] Um, so that you You You know, don't have to blast out like hundreds of thousands of emails just to get kind of like a mediocre conversion rate to meeting. You can send fewer emails, but you can still generate like more high quality pipeline. Um, and maybe you just won't have to grow your team quite as much as you were originally expecting. [00:47:56] Like that kind of head count equation maybe changes. Um, [00:48:00] but yeah, I don't think we're close enough to a like complete, uh, replacement. I also think what it opens up is us going back to like what salespeople are really good at and what they should be doing, which is relationships. AI is not good at having conversations like, like this. [00:48:21] And so that is the value of sales reps going and having these conversations. And then where AI helps is after you have that conversation, AI is going to listen to the call and like maybe extract some things for you that you, you may. Have not have realized, um, because it's looking at like the holistic picture. [00:48:40] Um, and then, you know, more basic tasks, like just summarizing the meeting and sending a great follow up email. That's where AI is going to help you. But like AI can't have. A good conversation. I don't think AI can probably do like really good nuanced discovery, uh, objection handling. Um, I'm sure [00:49:00] there's, there's tools that I know of that are like trying to crack that, but I just, I think we're probably still far away. [00:49:06] Phil: Yeah, such a great point last year. We, we kind of explored this actually, it's funny that you said like, we could do a full episode on like exploring some of this. And, um, my former co host and I and ChadGBT at the time, we're having like a conversation on a podcast about this. And I love that you mentioned relationship because like, that's the central theme of, Like the thesis that came out of this, like marketers and rev ops folks that had roles that were focused on relationship and like chatting with customers and dealing with internal comms to like, it's not just external and like the customer angle there. [00:49:42] It's also like part of a rev ops and a marketing ops person's role is like translating stuff. Super nuanced things specific to a company and likes to between stakeholders to make business decisions. Like, I feel like we're still far off from from some of that stuff there. So, but yeah, [00:50:00] not not to do a full episode on on that. [00:50:02] I'm I'm sure you've got some really interesting insights there, but I'll ask you maybe 2 more questions. Um, I'm curious to, to, to end on like a, a fun note here. So, um, based on you, [00:50:13] How Sales Teams Weaponize Kindness to Fill Their Pipeline --- [00:50:13] Phil: you said you were doing a bit of prospecting and you obviously really deep in this world. Um, what are some of the most unusual but effective sales tactics that you've come across recently or, or, or whatever? [00:50:27] Like, I'll, I'll give you a mind, uh, just, So you have a time to think of yours, but I, I hate like the, Hey, Phil, I saw your team did this. And, um, how are you thinking about that though? And my team can help with this. Like it's marginally better than, Hey, Phil, my company can help with this. Like we're just skipping that whole like fluffy introduction part of it. [00:50:47] But I love recently I've seen a couple of reps in Martech do this more when I was in the house and like buying Martech. Um, but one thing that's worked for me, and maybe this says more about me then. Then other folks, but like [00:51:00] this idea of flattery. So like folks, sales reps would reach out and be like, Hey, Phil, you obviously like know what you're doing. [00:51:06] Love your background. We're building this new tool in Martech and we would love to get your insights on the product and get your take on it. Um, we don't want to like sell you anything. We just want to like show you the tool. We'd love to get feedback from you, give it back to our product team. And I ended up getting probably the very similar demo that like an actual. [00:51:26] Cool. Deal prospect would be getting, but it came with flattery and it still left me with like a view of the visual product and maybe I'll talk about it with someone else when they're in market. And so I just thought it was like a different take on this instead of just being like, Hey, are you interested in this? [00:51:43] Do you need this? And it was instead, I was like, You're clearly an expert in this space. We're building something new. We're not experts yet. Like we're seeking advice. We want your help. What, what's, what do you think has come up that that's been unusual that kind of like sticks out to you? [00:51:57] Sandy: Yeah, on that 1 in particular, [00:52:00] we, we have run that playbook before, um, kind of, like, when we're launching some of our new AI stuff, we, we started there. And I think for, for us, at least it was a great way to have a high volume of meetings, but when set the expectation up front around feedback, it's harder to then kind of like convert it into a real sales conversation. [00:52:23] But I still think it's like super valuable to do because just the like volume of conversation just gives you more data points and insights that you can then use. To kind of like, you know, go and up level that message and send it to like that person's boss or the CRO. Um, similarly, another unusual one in the same vein is we also have a podcast. [00:52:46] Um, and so, um, that's a great thing. Again, flattery and way to connect with more people in the space, like go to market experts that we want to talk to anyways, who are going to deliver a great podcast episode, [00:53:00] but, you know, double benefit if they just so happen to also work at a target account. And we, we opened that door with them there. [00:53:06] Um, another, um, unusual one similar to this is like, yeah, just doing something nice for other people always goes a long way. And. Nice can range for different things. Like, it could be giving them something of value for free, but it could also be, um, you know, we once donated to somebody's, like, charity race, um, I think, uh, and then, you know, our reps are really good about being empathetic about, like, end of quarter and, you know, The stress that comes along with that. [00:53:37] And so offering something like, hey, you know, can I like buy breakfast for your team? I know you guys are underwater right now because it's end of quarter and you're trying to hit quota. Like, let me just buy you guys breakfast just to be nice. No, nothing, nothing required in return. Um, so that always goes a long way too. [00:53:55] Phil: That is really cool. Building empathy and being like, yeah, [00:54:00] we're just being nice. Like nothing, nothing in return. We don't always need to like jump on a demo and have a call about this. Uh, so this is super fun conversation. I love jamming about sales with, uh, another. Canadian or at least Canadian based marketer. [00:54:14] Uh, appreciate your time today. This is super fun. [00:54:16] Maintaining Work Life Balance Through Creative Side Projects --- [00:54:16] Phil: I got one last question for you. Uh, you're obviously a team leader, head of marketing. You're also a big fan of tactile hobbies, like painting, home decor, interior design. One question we ask everyone on the show is how do you remain happy and successful in your career? [00:54:31] And how do you find balance between all the shit you're working on while staying happy? [00:54:36] Sandy: I think, um, that's a great question. And again, like something I could talk about forever. Um, I think there's a few keys to like remaining happy and successful in your career. I think one of them is just choosing the right people to work with the that is like the I think number one predictor of happiness in your career is the people you end up working with, you know, like, you should like the [00:55:00] people you work with. [00:55:00] Um, and, um, And that doesn't always work for people, but for me, like, that is the biggest kind of, like, thing that buoys me every day and makes me excited to work is I love the people I work with, um, not just because they're, like, fun, nice people, but I also think, like, they're leveling me up in my career, um, and making me better at my job. [00:55:20] Um, I think always carving time to work on things that give you energy and being like really conscious of what gives you energy versus what doesn't. Um, and there will be, and then just like being realistic about the fact that there are going to be weeks where you are off balance, you are working on things that drain your energy exclusively, and you're just not going to be that happy. [00:55:42] In those cases, make sure that like when you log off, you are doing something that makes you happy. So for me, it's like maybe doing something. Tactile, like you said, I love doing creative things to like Give me that happiness. But other days when I'm like super burnt out, it might just be watching some trash [00:56:00] reality TV. [00:56:03] Phil: it. I feel like that's a solid escape for, for a lot of folks. Do you get a chance to like help out with, um, like the more creative graphic design stuff with, with pokies, like, especially in the, in the early days. Yeah. [00:56:14] Sandy: Yeah. I mean, I still have my hands all over that. And, uh, some, some folks on my team, unfortunately have been on the receiving end of being like, Hey, could I, could you just send me that candle link? I would like to judge this up. [00:56:28] Phil: Stick to the interior designs, Dandy. We, we, we got this. [00:56:32] Sandy: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, they love it. [00:56:35] Phil: Awesome. Yeah, no, I, one of the fun parts of doing the podcast is, uh, getting to flex on, on Canva and doing some, uh, some AI mid journey stuff for, uh, the blog post version of this too. So yeah, totally. Totally relate. Sandy, this has been super fun. We'll obviously link out to all the great content for, um, the folks that are at the intersection of marketing and sales. [00:56:55] I think a lot of marketers are going to be in and talking about prospecting in [00:57:00] 2025, so I really appreciate your time. It's been super fun. [00:57:03] Sandy: Oh, this was such a fun conversation. Phil, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, if any marketers want to talk about sales and prospecting and how to become more kind of like in the weeds on sales and revenue, I'm always happy to chat. [00:57:16] Phil: Awesome.