[00:00:00] Everyone : happiness [00:01:08] Phil: Hey, so what do you do? Why is it that we always default to work when we get this question? It's like many of us have let our jobs become the center of how we see ourselves. It slowly happens, I guess, to many of us as work occupies more mental and emotional space. But I don't like it. Uh, I ask 50 people in MarTech and operations how they stay happy under sustained pressure at work. [00:01:33] This three part series titled 50 Operators Share the Systems that Keep Them Happy, explores three main layers that showed up the most frequently through the lived experience of operators who probably feel the same pressure you feel right now. [00:01:45] In This Episode --- [00:01:45] Phil: Today we close out the series with part three, meaning we'll hear from 19 people and we'll cover progress tells you if the work is working, choosing work that deserves your time, keeping work from taking over, feeding your second self and zooming out far [00:02:00] enough. [00:02:00] All that and a bunch more stuff after a quick word from two of our awesome partners. [00:02:03] ​ [00:04:06] Phil: So most of the operators I chatted with don't talk about happiness. Like it suddenly arrived, the pursuit was over and they achieved it. Like describe it as something you feel when things are moving in life and at work. And our first three guests get there right away by tying happiness directly to progress. [00:04:24] The kind that tells you you aren't stuck and things are moving. [00:04:27] Rich Waldron: Auditing Whether Work Is Actually Moving --- [00:04:27] Rich: I have a very boring answer to this, and I fully expect to be judged for it and made trolled for it. But, um, [00:04:34] Phil: That's Rich Waldron, co-founder and CE o@tre.ai. He's also a dad and a mediocre golfer. [00:04:41] Rich: happiness is mostly driven by progress. And at any point where things don't feel like they're moving forward, that's when I identify with the feeling of like, you know, burnout or some of the things that people feel in their, in their personal lives and in their professional lives often. [00:04:59] It's not a [00:05:00] physical reason. It's not 'cause you're so tired or you know you've just been grinding too hard. It's usually because the thing that you're working on isn't moving in the direction that you want it to. And whenever I get that feeling, that's usually a good sort of nudge to go look back and say like, well, what gets stuck back on course? [00:05:18] How do you get a, everybody has to have a sense of momentum or progress in professional and and personal lives, and I think it makes you. It makes you far more attentive in your personal life. 'cause you're much, you know, you feel like things are in the right direction that makes you, at least for me, maybe a better dad and, and all the things that you wanna be. [00:05:37] But the flip side of that is that that constant feeling of progression make an achievement. And I think nobody wants to, no one wants to sit around and be bored and get paid for it as much as people may think that that's a good idea. We've probably all had that in our careers at some point, and it, it, it kind of sucks. [00:05:55] Hmm. And on the flip side, if you're constantly grinding at something and nothing changes, [00:06:00] that's equally a super frustrating moment. So for me, finding balance is ultimately getting a sense that things are, are progressing and moving in the right direction. 'cause it's hard to relax or disconnect without that sense. [00:06:12] You kind of feel constantly like there's gotta be a way to to, to get things, you know, pushed along. So yeah, that would be, that would be the. The thing that I probably resonate most with. [00:06:22] Phil: Uh, awesome answer From Rich. There are definitely not a boring answer. Makes total sense. Almost feels more intuitive and something you feel before you can actually articulate it. Like when work is moving, life just feels a bit lighter. When work is stalling and things aren't like going where you want 'em to go, everything kind of tightens around you. [00:06:42] Uh, our next guest agrees that progress is huge, um, but she talks about perfection as the thing that can quietly ruin it. [00:06:49] Samia Syed: Tracking Personal Growth --- [00:06:49] Samia: Yeah, I love this question and I love that you ask your guests this. 'cause I think it just gives an insight into, um, you know, how they, how they think and operate it personally outside of work as well. [00:06:58] Phil: That's Samia Sayed, director [00:07:00] of Growth Marketing at Dropbox. She's also a mother outdoor fanatic and an avid hiker. [00:07:04] Samia: I think for me, um, honestly, I, I feel like earlier on in my career, or like even in like my twenties, it was very much about striving for perfection and you know, that's how I was kind of like raised that you have to like aim for perfection. [00:07:19] And I found that. Anchoring on perfection as your metric for happiness was setting yourself up for unhappiness. And so for me, it's really become more about progress over perfection. And that's really where I get my, uh, source of happiness. So whether it's progress at work and you know, making sure that I'm doing work that's impactful, um, how the team is progressing, how they're growing, how we're, you know, getting closer to our goals. [00:07:45] And then same with my personal life, you know, how I'm developing as, um, a person and how I'm seeing. My daughter grow and learn and develop every day. I think seeing that Delta is the sweet spot for me in, in finding that happiness. And I've, you know, I've learned that the hard way, you know, anchoring on [00:08:00] perfection, but I've realized over many years that nothing is ever gonna be perfect. [00:08:04] Mm-hmm. And so you kind of just have to focus on, um, the progress that you're making as an individual, as an employee, as a family, you know, mom or a dad or whatever it is. Um, and really lean on that for your source of happiness. [00:08:18] Phil: Samia. Basically calls her younger self out here. She learned to stop waiting for perfect outcomes. [00:08:23] Now progress is kind of the metric for happiness across work and life. Our next guest also uses progress as the signal, but he actually measures it across life, not just work. [00:08:33] Jonathan Kazarian: Tracking Growth Across Life Health and Work --- [00:08:33] Jonathan: Uh, let's say ex sailor, there's a lot of things that you do. Obviously you do rats when you, uh, when you become a dad, but that's, that's okay. That's a good thing. Um, [00:08:43] Phil: That's Jonathan Gian, founder and CEO of Excel events. He's also a father and a frequent sailor. [00:08:48] Jonathan: I guess we've probably all seen these quotes around like the, the number one thing that drives happiness is, is, is growth, right? It's like forward movement. [00:08:57] And as long as I'm continuing to feel like I'm [00:09:00] progressing in life, in business, in health, then that keeps me happy. I mean, look, there could always be setbacks, but think at the end of the day, like you have the capacity to drive a lot of that. And, um, like sticking with it, uh, we look, we, we banged on point solution for an hour. [00:09:22] We excel events started as a point solution and that was over 10 years ago. And we continue to push forward and grow and recognize that the category. Has the capacity and is very much a platform in itself. And that's the direction that we pushed forward and grew into. And, uh, again, it's just that, it's that continued growth in every element of life. [00:09:42] Phil: Short, but awesome answer from Jonathan. [00:09:45] Progress at work isn't everything. Continued growth and health and life in general should be the focus. Progress equals happiness feels like such a simple thing on paper until you realize how many jobs make it almost impossible to feel that. [00:10:00] Um, that's where the next set of answers go. So the, the next four guests kind of chat about where and how you work, choosing work that justifies all the time, the energy and the attention that it usually demands. [00:10:11] Kim Hacker: Choosing Roles With Daily Visible Impact --- [00:10:11] Kim: Yeah, I think balance is something that I am still trying to find. It was a New Year's resolution for me to be better about that. And we're in April right now, and I have not done that at all. So balance is tough. [00:10:23] Phil: That's Kim Hacker, COO at Arrows. She's also a puzzle master, plays a lot of beach volleyball, and recently started learning archery. [00:10:31] Kim: I think that I have always been a person who is really excited about work and solving problems. [00:10:36] And so I think the, the happiness piece of it I can speak to, because I think for me, I've been at Arrows now for four years, um, and. I love my job here so much. It's, we're early stage startup. I'm wearing a ton of different hats. I'm doing a lot of different things in the business and I'm loving it. And I think the thing that makes me love it is I feel like I am moving the needle every single day and I [00:11:00] am like coming into work and solving problems and helping drive the business forward. [00:11:03] And for me, and I think a lot of people that matters a ton to like feel valuable and feel like I'm making a difference. And so even though I'm still figuring out the balance part of it. I, the, the reason I'm having a hard time with balance is because I want to do more, because I'm having a really good time and feeling like I can make an impact. [00:11:21] And I think that's just a big thing that, you know, people and I have struggled at different points in my career with feeling, uh, satisfied in my job or wondering if I am, if it's me or if it's the culture or whatever it is. And I think for me, what I found is if I feel like I'm doing valuable work. Being recognized it. [00:11:40] Like for recognized for it. So if people are also like at the company noticing the work that I'm doing, I think that is like the best setup you can have. And I would also say for people who aren't happy, maybe like start thinking about if you have that and if you can start finding a way to, to get that either at your [00:12:00] current company or at a different company. [00:12:01] Because I think that's like the critical piece that's made the biggest difference for me. Hmm. [00:12:05] Phil: So Kim essentially talks about how powerful it feels to be useful to choose a role where you can see and feel your impact. Our next guest also evaluates whether work is worth the effort, but for him it's more of an investigation with three questions. [00:12:21] Mac Reddin: Checking Work Against 3 Personal Conditions --- [00:12:21] Mac: I think for me it comes down to, to three things. And I think I, I, I learned this, this is my fifth company, so I learned this a while ago. [00:12:28] Phil: That's Mac Redden founder and CEO of Comor. He's also a cat dad, home chef, and an avid runner. [00:12:34] Mac: as long as three things are true, I'm good. If one of these three stops being true, it's time to revisit something, everything, partially, whatever. And it's basically I wanna work on something that people want to buy. [00:12:45] So am I building something worth building? I wanna build it with people that are smarter than me, that I have fun doing it with, that are like, that are worth doing it with. And I want to have fun while I'm doing it. If those three things are true, honestly, 99% of everything else [00:13:00] will figure itself out or be figureoutable. [00:13:02] Um, if one of those three things stopped being true, you know, that's like, that was to me, like that was the wake up call that we had to pivot the business two years ago was like, those things weren't true anymore. We were no longer selling a thing that people were willing to spend money on. The team we were building it with was not the right team to build it with, and I wasn't having fun anymore. [00:13:19] Great. Something's gone terribly wrong. Um, I'm, I'm like, I'm a classic workaholic founder type. Like, I like my work. I don't feel like I have to go and search for a work-life balance. So yeah, if you have updates and down days, but in general, like, you know, it's, for me, it's just, I'm, I'm building a problem, building a thing to solve a problem I care about that I can talk about for hours on end. [00:13:38] If you let me, and I know we're at time here, so you're pretty close to letting me over talk about this. Um, and then it's just, yeah, just. I dunno. I think obviously that's a good recipe just for life in general. Like do things worth doing and have fun doing them. Everything else will figure itself out. [00:13:54] Phil: We're all way too often focused on earning our place at a company where we work, but Mac kind of flips that and says that [00:14:00] the work itself should continuously earn its place in our lives, or it should be changed. Our next guest is also a founder and he agrees that work must earn its place and he proves it over time. [00:14:11] Chris Golec: Choosing Early Stage Building Work --- [00:14:11] Chris: Yeah, good question. Um, well I'm happy at work 'cause I like, I love innovation, I love building things [00:14:17] Phil: That's Chris Goch, founder and CEO at Channel 99. Former founder and CEO of Demand Base. He's also a father and avid outdoors, mountain biker, skier, and hiker. [00:14:27] Chris: you know, I always have something cooking. So, um, it is kind of that work hard, play hard mentality. And, um, the reality is startups are hard. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure everybody that might be listening at a startup, she knows that you go through Lowe's. [00:14:44] They're important because it's how do you come out of those and it's the lows that make that high is way, much, way better. And so that, that can be really gratifying. And uh, you know, I, I just love kind of the building company thing 'cause people couldn't believe it when I was leaving Demand base [00:15:00] to start in. [00:15:02] Phil: Startup game isn't for the faint of heart, but clearly Chris talks about chasing that rush of building through the highs and the lows. And while it might not be for everyone, it's definitely, you know, part of Chris's identity. And our next guest also talks about choosing work, but she keeps the work alive by following curiosity. [00:15:19] Hope Barrett: Feeding curiosity across multiple domains --- [00:15:19] Hope: So I, I really enjoy what I do. I mean, and I've been at companies where I couldn't have said the same, [00:15:26] Phil: That's whole Barrett, senior Director of Product Management, MarTech at SoundCloud. She's also an avid reader and a news junkie. [00:15:33] Hope: right? So I've been places where maybe the compensation was great that, you know, yeah, I don't like to be micromanaged Yeah. Being micromanaged every day, but I, Hey, I got my MD out of that. So there could be other reasons, but was I happy? [00:15:47] No, not really. Uh, here, I, I truly enjoy what I do. I enjoy the different. You know, experiences I get, I mean it at heart. I, I, I mentioned that in Information Junkie. I also call myself a [00:16:00] generalist. Sometimes my manager corrects me and says, I'm a fixer, and I can, I'll take either one. But, you know, I, I like seeing how, I, like knowing a lot of different things about different areas. [00:16:10] I like seeing that it come together and I'm able to do that here at SoundCloud. So that makes me happy. And it's not, it's not necessarily a workaholic or anything like that, but. I just enjoy like the tech, like what is happening today? You know? Oh, what is Google doing today? Like my performance marketing hat on that. [00:16:28] That's a big one, right? You know, how do I get, how do I get the most I possibly can out of whatever DSP and this will be do inside platform DSP, then I'm inter and music, right? So those are all things that. I enjoy and that makes me happy. So, um, I do have really good, I think, work back life balance, although sometimes, as I mentioned earlier, I stay way too late reading. [00:16:50] But, you know, other than that, you know, I, I, I just, I, I, I find, I guess I, I find enjoyment slash happiness in like my day to day. And that [00:17:00] again, hasn't always been the case for me. I, I've been there be, I've been in those situations and now my situation now obviously much preferable. [00:17:07] Phil: Such an awesome answer from Hope. She basically finds happiness by being a thoughtful generalist for her. Meaning comes from movement inside of the role, not having to like switch jobs. Um, but yeah, really cool answer from Hope. So, so far we've heard from seven people. They've talked about reframing progress as the clearest indicator of whether a career is actually contributing to a good life and choosing work that justifies your time and your energy. [00:17:32] The next four answers touch on how work is held emotionally, like how we keep it from taking over or tied too much to our self-worth. Uh, our next guest treats work like a game. [00:17:45] Simon Lejeune: Treating work like a game --- [00:17:45] Simon: Um, I think like, you know, I, I would take my work very seriously, but, uh, I try to, and this maybe in piece of advice, like I try to not take myself too seriously. [00:17:57] Phil: That's Simon Degen, VP of Growth at Wealthsimple. He's [00:18:00] also a self-described fun uncle. [00:18:02] Simon: Like, the priority is to have fun, spend like eight, 10 more hours at work every day. So like, just try to have fun. Don't be miserable, don't make other people miserable or tiny speck floating in space. [00:18:17] It doesn't matter. You know, I'm all simple. This is great. So exciting. Like the most incredible FinTech we have a shot at, like, going after the big base. It's amazing. Sometimes I just remind myself, Hey, I'm selling bank accounts, you know, not like saving lives, you know? It's fine. Uh, so don't take yourself too seriously. [00:18:37] And, uh, I think another piece for me, the, the way I stay happy is like, I see this as a game and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but. Uh, it's fun. Like, and, and I like to play this game. It's like a big board game. I have resources, I have a timer, I have opponents. And, uh, then everything becomes a little more fun 'cause I want to know the results. [00:18:59] Like, and [00:19:00] I see good growth people when they ship something and they like refresh. And I want my dashboard and I'm excited to see the turn by turn play. And, uh, if you frame it this way, it's a, it's a really exciting way to go through work without feeling like you're, you're working. [00:19:14] Phil: We're all tiny specks floating in space. [00:19:16] Just don't make other people miserable. Love the advice here from Simon. Such an awesome answer. Uh, I think his core message though is like shrinking perceived stakes, keeps ambition intact without like, turning work into self-worth. Like you don't. Like, we're not doctors, we're not saving babies, like people that work in and around marketing, like, um, you know, don't, don't take yourself too seriously. [00:19:40] I think it's a, it's a really cool perspective. Uh, our next guess is also big on reducing work's grip and, um, instead of like shrinking stakes, she's focused more on like limiting mental spillover. [00:19:52] Ana Mourão: A mental buffer between noticing and doing --- [00:19:52] Ana: Mm, that's a very good question. So, I, I like to, I, I [00:20:00] have the moments of, for instance, my weekends, my nights. I like to dedicate to my family, to my baking, to the kitty, try to relax. [00:20:10] Phil: That's Anna Morrell, CRM customer data and CDP advisor. She's also a mother home baker amateur photographer and cat mom. [00:20:17] Ana: But on the other hand, I'm always, I'm always on the lookout as well. Because I like connecting dots. I think that a marketer's work is largely about connecting dots. [00:20:30] Um, especially when you work for large corporations like myself, so I'm always on the lookout as well. So even if I'm like relaxing, like reading the newspaper or just browsing through LinkedIn, I may read something. I'm like, oh. That is interesting, that connects to that conversation or to that issue that we were discussing. [00:20:51] So that may be an interesting hypothesis for us to test in order to improve the issue. So I, I, I [00:21:00] see that as well for, for later, for later conversations. So it, I, I don't know if I have exactly like a proper balance, but I think that I can go on and off. Right enough that I can connect the point without burning out. [00:21:18] I'll put it this way. [00:21:20] Phil: Awesome answer from Anna. I think many of us do this subconsciously, but she describes it really well as like protecting the space between noticing something and actually doing something about the thing you're noticing. Work stops sneaking into every quiet moment for her because she's able to separate the two things. [00:21:38] Uh, our next guest also keeps work from taking over, but instead of setting limits or boundaries, he talks about, uh, adding future pull to his day. [00:21:46] Tiankai Feng: Anticipation planning --- [00:21:46] Tiankai: Yeah. Um, I think, uh, there's two sides to it. One is, um, I try to be less negative, and that means, um, I am conscious about what I have under my span of control and what I don't, [00:21:58] Phil: That's Fang Data and [00:22:00] AI strategy director at ThoughtWorks and the author of Humanizing Data Strategy. He's also a musician, a rapper, and an avid sci-fi book enthusiast and a silly dad of two. [00:22:09] Tiankai: right? Mm-hmm. If thi bad things are happening to me and I cannot control it, then I shouldn't be bothered by it, right? I cannot control it or change it anyway, but if I can change it, I do everything in my power to make it better. [00:22:19] And then at least I tried no matter what the outcome is. Right? And so turning it into solution, uh, basically mode rather than problem mode is one key how I stay, uh, or how key negativity out of my life and the positivity, I think. Is actually I feel like, um, a habit that I created for myself. And those are small things. [00:22:41] Like every day in the morning, look at my calendar and see what I'm looking forward to. Right. Today in this case, I was recording this podcast episode with you. Right. So I had the whole hours before this conversation to be happy because I was looking forward to something. Right. Nice. And on the biggest scale, you look forward to vacations, for example. [00:22:57] You look forward to your kids having [00:23:00] milestones in their lives potentially, or everything else in your life. Right. Having something to look forward to is, I think, a big driver to be positive, because then everything else matters less because you're focusing on something that is a little bit further away. [00:23:14] So no matter what happens, at least you have this right, the good thing that you're looking forward to. So that's how I stay fun. [00:23:20] Phil: A fascinating answer from Tke. Not surprising. He talked about planning and looking ahead, since he is a big time travel sci-fi guy. [00:23:28] ​ [00:25:23] Phil: our next guest prevents work from taking over by physically changing roles. [00:25:27] When work ends, another role begins. [00:25:30] István Mészáros: Choosing Who You Are When Work Ends --- [00:25:30] Istvan: Yes. So like in my free time, I spend my all, all my time with my, my kid and my family. It's very, it's a great time now because, uh, he's like three, well, three years old. [00:25:40] Phil: that's ish v Mero founder and CEO of mitsu.io. He's also a busy dad. [00:25:45] Istvan: It's good to be there. So I play with the Lego with him, which is great. Um, keeping the sanity is hard. I at work, definitely being a founder is, um, oh my God. [00:25:57] This is a huge challenge. Definitely. Previously I was an [00:26:00] individual contributor in many, many companies, and. You know, like you are used to, uh, a lifestyle that basically you don't have responsibility, uh, besides your like, line of work that you do work like every day. Yeah. And suddenly it's like 180 degree turn. [00:26:18] Uh, I have, I have a lot of sleepless nights. Yeah. Uh, during this, uh, building company and, and decision judgment calls. Oh my God. That's a, that's a very huge one. Uh, the good thing is that I feel it is less and less, um, stressful to have a judgment call sometimes to an extent that I, I stop worrying about things that I should worry about. [00:26:41] That's interesting. That's, uh, that's different experience. Like I know, like that's why a car. I something about the car. Uh, I was like, checked well out. Okay, this is good. I checked it fair while I was like, not worth my energy anymore. Exactly. I had like half an hour for this project. [00:27:00] Okay, fine. Solid. Yeah. [00:27:02] Previously it would have taken like half a year to find a good one, but a could great price and like good parameters. Now I just don't care anymore about like, significant decisions in your life. Uh, which is amazing by the way. At home I get a lot of, uh. Did comments about this either from my life, fine. [00:27:21] The, the, the main thing that makes me happy at work is like seeing customers coming in. Uh, that's, that's amazing. It's like I, as an ic uh, selling a software, individual contributor previously now selling software to companies that are like way above our like, league, like mm-hmm. We are punching up. We are punching up a lot. [00:27:40] Yeah. Yeah. And we still close deals with companies that like a hundred times bigger than us. A hundred times greater than us. And they, I think, clicked when they look at our LinkedIn page, they're like, okay, let's, let's close this LinkedIn page. They're like, I don't believe there are only three people or six people, or, you know, let's close it. [00:27:57] And they still didn't sign with us. Uh, which is [00:28:00] amazing feeling. And, uh, that's something also I have to, I had to learn that. Uh, I, I, if you come from the IC background, you are like serving others in the company and your goal is to. Help them as much as possible. Mm-hmm. Being a sales founder, CEO type of personality, the goal is to maximize growth, revenue, whatever metric that you're looking for in the, in the, in the startup. [00:28:27] Um, that, that, that mindset has to be changed. And I'm changing that as well. Like I am, I'm more and more bold in asking a bigger deal whether I'm doing a sales course, but it, if it happens, it's like ultimately makes me super happy and like excited about it. Uh, if it doesn't happen, it's like that. It goes down very much. [00:28:48] Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:49] Phil: ISH Fund's Answer could reasonably live in any part of the three part series that we did, including stability or human connection because it kind of operates as a habit boundary system. [00:29:00] That behavior protects mental energy shutting down and, but it happens in the context of family and it creates like a daily role change. [00:29:07] So I had a really tough time deciding where to put him, but ultimately I. Think it fits best here because the habit defines who he chooses to be when the workday ends, like sitting on the floor building, Lego kind of draws that clear line around work's importance and keeping it from becoming the sole source of his identity as a whole, like as a founder. [00:29:27] Um, the, I don't know, a really cool answer, um, for Michaun anyways, uh, so we've kind of covered guests who talked about. Progress as the signal choosing work that justifies your energy and then keeping work from taking over the next five guests. Talk about something I really relate with, not necessarily escapism, but like feeding your second self meaning is protected when identity is actively nourished outside of work, not just defended from it. [00:29:52] Danielle Balestra: Feeding Interests Unrelated to Work --- [00:29:52] Danielle: Yeah, so I shared a little bit just in my last answer, is I wanna keep growing and I wanna keep being challenged. So that's one of the things is [00:30:00] like, [00:30:00] Phil: That's Danielle Fractional marketing technologist, former Director of Marketing technology and operations at Goodwin. She's also a big soccer fan, New York Mets fanatic movie buff, and an avid reader. [00:30:10] Danielle: am I learning about it at a conference? Is it a book I'm reading? Is it a webinar I'm listening to? But at the same time, I also have a family and there's things that are important to me personally. [00:30:19] Am I growing? Am I learning? Am I, um. I really love movies to watch them. I just think it's so amazing how they put these things together and how they tell a story visually and they have the sound and like, it's a full to me experience. So getting my kids to also like some of these things is very fun. [00:30:35] Like to know, to know that like the three, me and my kids, my husband, not so much, but like, we'll go to the movie theater. We'll have the whole experience. We'll get some food. Like it's, it's having that balance of like enjoying my life. As well as learning and developing all the time. So not pushing myself to just be the best and the the highest level I could be. [00:30:53] It's like being proud of what I delivered. Keep growing from that, but also enjoying [00:31:00] being a human and, and experiencing human, and hearing people's stories and listening to them, um, you know, through their movies or through their, their words on pages and cheering people on for their physical successes, such as the women's soccer teams. [00:31:16] You know, having to see the Mets who never go, go anywhere, but I think this will be a good year for us, so I'm very excited for them. [00:31:22] Phil: We recorded Danielle's episode right around the severance TV show finale. So it was top of mind for us. [00:31:27] Uh, we, we definitely talked a lot about that. Uh, I think her core message is that like, interests with no professional return, keep fulfillment distributed beyond work. Um, our next yes, also invests outside of work, but he focuses more on making and building. [00:31:42] Jeff Lee: Continuing to Build Personal Projects After the Workday Ends --- [00:31:42] Jeff: So I, like I mentioned before, it was like I, I like, I'm a tinkerer. I like to do things, I like to build things. [00:31:51] Phil: That's Jeff Lee, lifecycle marketing technical lead at Calm. [00:31:54] He's also a dad, golfer, home chef, and a late programmer. [00:31:57] Jeff: And like there's this term of [00:32:00] Iki guy. I was like, find out something that you're passionate about and then you'll also get paid for. Hmm. I think this, like this, this combination of marketing and engineering of like the speed. [00:32:10] That's kind of it. I like doing this. So it's like the, the balance is there. I'm not saying like. And I tend to work on the things that interest me or that, well, I'll get into a flow state and I'll just like realize like, oh, it's like five o'clock. Yeah, six o'clock. Like, well, what happened to today? Those are things I like to do. [00:32:27] It's not good career advice, right. I'm not saying like a, you know, if you're trying to be a VP or a director of something X, Y, or z, uh, chasing I guy, Iki guy, stuff isn't gonna get you there. Maybe, probably not. Um, but like. At the, at that point, it's just like, I, I enjoy working. I like, I do this once, once the kids go to bed. [00:32:49] I might continue to do more stuff, like occasionally for myself, like, just because it's, it's entertaining and, um, it's just like I try to align my career [00:33:00] with my interests or my, like, things that I enjoy doing. And here I am. [00:33:04] Phil: Like many of us, Jeff gets lost in tinkering with ideas. But I love his icky guy Framework. Personal projects protect identity 'cause it kind of preserves your sense of self outside job titles and outcomes. Uh, our next yes, is also a builder at heart, but he does it less for following interests and more for continuity. [00:33:23] John Saunders: Keeping a builder practice outside of work --- [00:33:23] John: Yeah. I mean, I think it's all of those personal things and passions that I have. Um, but I think at the root of it, what really, and you can probably tell from this interview, and going a little bit technical in some areas, I'm a builder at heart and I love to experiment with things, and [00:33:41] Phil: That's John Saunders, VP of product at Power Digital Marketing. He's also a dog dad, a dad of two, a big golfer and a big beach guy as well. [00:33:49] John: I think what keeps me happy is all the innovation that, that we see. [00:33:54] I mean, I, I think it's like perfect for me right now because I just love to test new things out. Um, [00:34:00] whether that's applying it to things that are personal, uh, or applying it back to what I can do within my job, as long as I'm building, experimenting and moving forward, that's really what, what keeps me happy. [00:34:11] But yeah, golf, my wife, my dogs, they contribute to that a lot too. Yeah. [00:34:17] Phil: For many of us, like John Building is just part of who we are, like not necessarily where we work. And that constant building loop just keeps meaning independent of the role that we have or who we work for. Um, our next guest was really hard to categorize because her answer is so awesome, so wide ranging, but ultimately she talks about work never becoming the sole container for ambition or fulfillment. [00:34:41] Ashley Faus: Group Creative Rituals Outside of work --- [00:34:41] Ashley: Yeah. I think the biggest thing for me is from a happiness perspective, having that mix of focus in driving toward a goal, whether that's in the gym or at work. [00:34:54] Phil: That's Ashley Fous, head of Lifecycle Marketing at Atlassian, and the author of Human-Centered Marketing, how to Connect [00:35:00] With Audiences in the Age of ai. She's also an avid baker, a fitness veed, actor and singer. [00:35:05] Ashley: Also having that mix of creativity, whether that's with buttercream in the kitchen or whether that's on stage or in rehearsals for musical theater. [00:35:14] Those are, those are some things, I think that ability to chase a goal, that ability to have a creative outlet. And then the other key piece of this that is not. Indicated in all of those activities, but is indicated in the title of the book, the people getting to do all of that with people that I like, that push me, that excite me. [00:35:35] The human piece of that, like this is why I've, I've had people ask like, oh, why don't you play guitar and go sing at coffee shops? And I'm like, nah, dude. The musical theater with other people like singing live with other people is freaking cool. Creating those harmonies. I can't harmonize with myself. [00:35:54] Trios, quartets, duets. Like I can harmonize with another person. That's cool. You know, [00:36:00] the cakes well, I do more baking when I'm gonna go into the office and hang out with my colleagues or when I'm gonna take cake to a rehearsal or opening cast party. I don't just make cakes for myself. Like I like treats. [00:36:12] Right. No dude. Sharing the cake, that's the fun part. Right, right. Um, same thing, even, even with the gym. Right. I could. I build a gym in my garage, but I like to go there and see these other people who are freaking strong and striving and like training for their marathon or training to hit their pr. [00:36:31] Looking over and seeing them and being like, and that person is crushing it. And then knowing that I am that person to someone else in the gym. It's like this symbiotic relationship where you've got, you know, all of this really good energy. So that's kinda what I'll say is I, I, I think. In terms of the balance, it's making those trade offs and leaning in. [00:36:50] Um, you can't do it all at once, but you can lean into different areas. But in the, for me, the six to 12 month time horizon, making sure that I [00:37:00] am hitting all of those areas with people is the key. [00:37:05] Phil: Such an awesome answer from Ashley, who somehow manages to do so many things in on top of like working a bunch of hours and then writing a book and all the stuff he has going on. But, uh, like many other answers, she talks about creativity and physical activity, but what maybe slot her answer here in part three is the feeding your second self. [00:37:24] Is that those activities are commitments that anchor her identity through participation with other people. Um, our next a touches on the importance of balancing group activities as well. Um, but she also talks about creative outlets that can be solo endeavors also, [00:37:40] Anna Aubucho: Maintaining a second self through solo creative practice --- [00:37:40] Anna Aubuchon: Yeah. Um, I love this question. Um, you know, you don't get it all the time, but, um, I think it's super important for me to have a balance of both. Social and social and solo creative outlets. I, um, [00:37:52] Phil: that's Anna Abesan, VP of Operations at Civic Technologies. [00:37:56] She's also a full-time mom and a part-time vibe coder, and [00:38:00] an avid wheel thrower. [00:38:01] Anna Aubuchon: work is, I, I love the challenges at work. I love constantly learning new things at work, but, you know, it's, it can be kind of, um, uh, oh, taxing on the mind. [00:38:13] And so I, I love a creative outlet, so when it comes to wheel throwing, I love sitting in front of a wheel and. It's just me, the wheel, my clay, and then what I want to create that day. And for anyone who's like ever thrown at a wheel, like you fail so many times before you can like, you know what you thought was gonna be a bold, turned out to be a pinch pot. [00:38:34] And so you it like, it's humbling and. So not only as a creative, but you learn from the failures and you learn to iterate. Um, so I love that outlet, um, that outlet, and it really helps me build resilience over time. And I think some of that translates into my professional life too. I. [00:38:53] Phil: I didn't know what Will was before Anna explained it, but lover answer, really cool perspective. Uh, so we're down to our [00:39:00] final three folks, um, and they help us kind of put a bow on this entire Happiness system series. [00:39:05] Uh, today we've refined what progress means, how to choose work that earns its place, how to keep work in proportion, and how to build parallel identities or second selves. And the final three folks help us zoom out. We take a step back and they help us answer, okay, so why does any of this really matter over time in the long haul? [00:39:25] Um, their answers deserve a spot in the final section because they help us place all of it inside a bigger timeline. Um, so instead of like seeing work. Competing with other things going on in life. Um, for them it's almost like expanding the horizon makes it so that work doesn't seem central anymore. [00:39:43] Like distance, time and scale sort of dissolves the urgency of work and work feels a lot smaller. When you look at a bigger time horizon, your job and your career is just one small thing and a very long story when you think about it. [00:39:56] Ruari Baker: Preserving Identity Through Regular Travel --- [00:39:56] Ruari: Sure. So on the personal side, like you said, I'm, I'm a big traveler, [00:40:00] so being able to see like a new culture, a new part of the world fairly regularly, I think, [00:40:05] Phil: That's Rory Baker, co-founder, c Ova Allegro. He's also an avid traveler, a chess master in training, and a pickleball fanatic. [00:40:12] Ruari: you know, helps me, uh, keep my spirits pretty high. And it's, you know, it's, it's a great luxury to be able to do that. Um, because I like experiencing, you know, new flavors, uh, you know, cuisine, seeing different parts of the world, it's always something I've loved doing a lot. [00:40:25] So that keeps me pretty, pretty happy. But on the, on the work side of things, there is a lot to juggle in this job, and I actually find. I get most happiness from focusing in on one thing and not actually doing too much balance in terms of like day to day of like what am I spending my time on? So I structure my days now where everything that it requires, a lot of context switching I'll do in the morning, and then the afternoon is pretty much reserved for just focusing on one key aspect that I wanna deep dive in on. [00:40:58] And that really means that. [00:41:00] I feel like I'm not just being redirected into focusing on whatever the flow of email traffic is about that day. Right? And I'm truly taking the time to, to consider the biggest problems we have and, and how to fix them. And the combination, the, the real thing to remember there is you can only ever do that, I think when you have a really brilliant team and you're getting to work with smart people that are talented every day and can, and can take some of those other things off your plate. [00:41:25] Um, so that's, that's, that's where I'm at right now. Um, in terms of, you know, what keeps me, keeps me motivated and keeps me happy. [00:41:33] Phil: Rory touched on a bit of everything. If you think about it, he like could have been slotted in any of our episodes. He structures his days for context switching, so he could be in part one, but he talked about people and that could be in part two. Um, how he starts his answer though, is ultimately why I put him, like before he talked about calendars and people. [00:41:51] He starts by stepping far enough away that work loses grip naturally, like traveling and distance. Does some of the work for him when it [00:42:00] comes to like separating, um, like that identity. Um, but yeah. Um, like our before last guest zooms out even further than Rory. She talks about how perspective does not maintain itself. [00:42:12] You have to build it into your weak or it could disappear. [00:42:15] Guta Tolmasquim: Building a personal product roadmap --- [00:42:15] Guta: I love this. That's the final, the final question, and I learned so much from other people's, uh, happiness systems. [00:42:23] Phil: That's gut tomo scheme, CEO of purple metrics. She's also an avid urban life traveler, big time sports fan and bookworm. [00:42:30] Guta: Uh, as a designer slash branding slash product person, I, I approach it like a product and I think it's something that you need to build up from on top of, like you need to start and then build features on top of features. [00:42:48] Hmm. And so now I'm very aware of the things that may make me feel good, which is sports in, in my [00:43:00] routine. Uh, I need to be around water. Like once every, something. I'm from Rio. I grew up in Rio. We have like the beach, the sea. I need to go back to the ocean. Every once in a while. I need to be around my friends. [00:43:17] I need to be reading. I love disposing movement of the city. Uh, so I structure my routine in a way that I make sure I'll have time with my friends. I'll be traveling every once in a while. Um, I'll be like, you know, all these things and I need to have this intellectual challenge. So talking to people like, like you. [00:43:47] Or even listening to podcasts or reading. So I understand the function, uh, quote unquote of this stuff That makes me happy and try to add it to the [00:44:00] system. And I also have this, uh, like a bug report when something's wrong. Like when, why am I so tired? Why am I so stressed? So I try to understand those signals, like those metrics on unhappiness. [00:44:15] And then I unpack why am I so stressed out? What's missing? Oh, I'm not, I'm not hitting right. I'm not sleeping well or I'm not, so I go back to fixing the system. So that's, that's my approach, but, and it's a constant, you, you can't, like, you need to dedicate time to it. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, you just got get run over by. [00:44:38] Work or routine and then yeah, you have a, a product roadmap for it. I, I do have a little bit nice things that I wanna do, but I try not to be so long, like, 'cause the long term generates anxiety. Yeah. So I have a list of books that I wanna [00:45:00] read. [00:45:00] Phil: So probably my favorite answer of the season, uh, happiness is like a product roadmap with features to maintain such a cool metaphor when you think about it. But, you know, the, the coolest part, I think is that like she knows and I spend time meditating on what inputs make her feel human. Uh, and she schedules them on purpose, notices when the system is kind of breaking and it fixes before work or routine. [00:45:24] Takes over, so to speak. I don't know. I, I thought her answer was really, really cool. And we're down to our last, uh, answer here. Our last and final guest takes us into the past, so she zooms out to our roots. [00:45:37] Pam Boiros: Feeding identities that have nothing to do with work --- [00:45:37] Pam: Yeah, I love this question. It's so important, right? To stay happy and successful. I think there's a lot of conversations around success, but that happiness is really, really important. [00:45:47] Phil: That's Pam Boris, fractional CMO and Marketing Advisor, the co-founder of Women Applying ai. She's also a proud Bostonian and a yoga lover, and an avid reader and ancestral detective. [00:45:58] Pam: Hmm. Um, so as you [00:46:00] said, you know, in addition to my professional roles, I love yoga and books and genealogy and you know, the irony is not lost on me. [00:46:06] That my interests range from the cutting edge and futuristic of tech and ai, and then to things that are really deeply rooted in the past, like yoga. Pop books and you know, genealogy. And I think if we bring this conversation kind of full circle, when I think about my interest in genealogy, you know, family names are inherited from our male ancestors, right? [00:46:28] It's just another thing that we don't think about. It's just kind of historically has been done. Again, recent generations that's changed a lot. Women are keeping their maiden names in a lot of cases, but historically that has absolutely been the case. As I dug into my own genealogy, I found the women in my family tree are some of the most interesting characters. [00:46:48] They've showed incredible strength and resilience. Um, some were immigrants who came to the US knowing they would never go back to their homeland. You know, it was not as easy a hundred, 150 years ago to just b on a [00:47:00] flight and go back to Ireland or Italy or some other plate. You knew when you were leaving that homeland you were never coming back. [00:47:06] You know, some I found on one side of my family played a really huge supporting critical role in the emergence of the US as an independent nation, you know, with the, you know, the, the Revolutionary War and stuff like that. So, I'm personally inspired by these women who came before me, and even if they're kind of, their names have been lost to history, we know that we can still learn from them and be inspired from them today. [00:47:26] Phil: So Pam finishing things off feels really nice. She's like stretching the timeline way in the past. Um, but when you zoom out far enough careers, stop feeling like you know the main character of your life. Um, when you look backer at like the women in her family tree, she's reframing success around endurance sacrifice, contribution. [00:47:45] And, you know, none of that stuff came with titles and it makes modern career pressure feel pretty small in comparison. [00:47:52] Outro --- [00:47:52] Phil: So this is by far my favorite question to ask in, in every interview. I ask it again this season in with a bit of a twist on it. Um, there's a lot of [00:48:00] similarities, obviously, in threads, but everyone has a unique take on how happiness shows up when life feels like it's. Moving somewhere you actually care about. [00:48:09] Almost everyone talked about visible progress even in tiny pieces. A product inching forward, a kid learning a new word, or a company refusing to stall out a new skill that used to feel impossible now feels like play. Like you hear it in the builders who answer that, they're like chasing interesting problems until the clock disappears. [00:48:28] I didn't see where time went. You hear it in the founders who use simple rules to decide when it's time to like pivot or walk away, become a dad again or mom. And you also hear it in like the operators who keep learning on purpose through books, movies, conferences, or weird side quests that have nothing to do with quarterly KPIs, but somehow it keeps their brain awake. [00:48:48] You also hear how often that meaning lives outside the job description. Gutta reverse engineers her own happiness like a product roadmap. Uh, Ashley finds it in harmonies and [00:49:00] buttercream and heavy lifting. Pam looks backward through, um, you know, all the women in her life and names that never made it into the company or chart, and it sits at the wheel wreck a bowl and turns it into like lesson and resilience. [00:49:14] That quietly feeds her leadership style. If you take one thing from this episode, let it be this. Treat your career as something you design, not something that just happens to you. Write down what progress actually means for you this year. We're in February. Maybe you don't have a resolution yet. Maybe you're listening to this way into the year, so let's scratch that. [00:49:32] But protect one creative outlet that belongs to you and not your employer. Like set one rule that helps you decide when a role still deserves your energy and when it's time to start writing a new chapter. You'll get a sense that like you're able to ship a lot of campaigns and tool in your life, but you only get one self, one mind, one body. [00:49:51] One opportunity and a short list of things that like genuinely light you up, like building a career that does not howl you out. Starts when you let those [00:50:00] things set the terms. Um, I hope you enjoyed getting a bit of wisdom from all 50 of these operators. Now. Go have fun out there. Remember to build the daily systems, protect the people, and choose the work that lets you stay fully human while you do it. [00:50:14] Thanks for listening folks.