The Trinity: can you be saved if you don't believe it?

Israel Folau, ancient creeds and sexy poetry

Show Notes

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For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Does the Trinity matter?

Warning: we're venturing into spiritually dangerous territory.

The Trinity has been in the news of late because of outspoken religious footballer Israel Folau. Folau and his church subscribe to a form of "oneness Pentecostalism", which doesn't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity – that God is three distinct persons in one.

So does the Trinity really matter or, as Michael asks, "is it just an arcane piece of theological knowledge designed to keep ministers busy?"

Mentioned in this segment:

• Eternity article by "Parent X" – Parent X: Why I told the SMH about Folau
• John Dickson's Facebook post about the Trinity
• Michael's (very old) article about the Trinity (written when he was five years old, reportedly) – The very practical doctrine of the Trinity

Further reading:

• Eternity article by Tom Richards – Israel Folau's problem with the Trinity
• Eternity article discussing the role of the Trinity, “Eternal Subordination” and gender – What the Bible teaches on women, according to a conservative subversive
• The Anglican Church's Sydney Diocese view on Trinity and gender – The doctrine of the Trinity and its bearing on the relationship between men and women

Clarification:

Just to prove the Trinity is a bit tricky, Megan and Michael confused each other at one point in this segment by talking about different things. So, when they are talking about the will of God, Megan was talking about the unity of the will of the Godhead while Michael was talking about the two wills of Jesus (divine and human).

Where credit's due

How our view of the Trinity is formed: creeds and confessions

Here's where we draw a line between the faith practices of our two favourite hosts: Megan is a Baptist, who are generally "non-credal" (ie. they believe the Bible is enough), whereas Michael is an Anglican, a denomination that has long used creeds.

So do we need formal statements of our beliefs? And which came first anyway: the creeds and confessions, or communal beliefs about the God we believe in, like the Trinity?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Baptist Church (NSW and ACT) statement of beliefs
• Anglican Church's Nicene Creed, Apostles' Creed and 39 articles
• Hillsong's song to the words of the Apostles' Creed – This I Believe – and John Dickson's role in the song's creation
• New Eternity podcast featuring John Dickson (thanks for the plug, Michael) – Undeceptions

Further listening:

• Hymn about the Trinity reimagined for modern audiences by Audrey Assad – Holy, Holy, Holy

Glossary - there's some heavy-duty words in this topic, so here's some definitions:

• creed: a formal statement of Christian beliefs
• Calvanistic: relating to the teachings of theologian John Calvin
• heremeneutical: a method of interpreting the Bible
• liturgy: a communal script used during church worship
• doxology: words of praise (often sung) during Christian worship services

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

John Donne: the poetry of the Trinity

Saucy, erotic and holy: three words you can use to describe the poetry of English writer and Anglican cleric John Donne. Megan and Michael venture into Donne's intimate exploration of the Trinity in a way that only poetry can.

Mentioned in this segment:

• “Batter my heart, three-person’d God”
•  “Wilt thou love God as He thee?”, along with Romans 8 and Psalm 8
• “Father, part of His double interest”
• Miroslav Wolf ("sexy theologian")

Further reading:

• Further poems by John Donne
• Eternity article on John Donne – Bringing Sexy Back 
• Article by the Gospel Coalition on the holy sonnets of John Donne – Battered by Donne: A Personal Appreciation of the Religious Poetry of John Donne

Glossary of tricky terms in this segment:

• lothario: a man who seduces a lot of women

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

What is With All Due Respect?

Less aggro, more conversation.

Is it even possible to have a deep discussion without it descending into chaos? Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit think yes, and want to show the rest of us how to do it.

There’s plenty of things they disagree on: free will, feminism, where you should send your kids to school and what type of church you should go to. But there are also plenty of other things that they have in common. They want to talk about all these things with conviction. But they also want the conversation to be constructive. Tune in to find out if that’s possible.