WEBVTT 00:00:05.671 --> 00:00:14.721 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, 00:00:14.721 --> 00:00:18.796 where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, ministry, the Bible. 00:00:21.209 --> 00:00:28.222 And this week is our first kind of part two. We're picking up where we left off last week. 00:00:29.644 --> 00:00:31.921 If you didn't get to hear that one, you can go back and look at that, obviously. 00:00:32.201 --> 00:00:42.958 But we started a conversation on homosexuality and some of the theology surrounding that. 00:00:43.228 --> 00:00:53.801 We kind of just generally talked about homosexuality and the Church's historical and biblical 00:00:53.801 --> 00:00:58.841 theology towards the practice of homosexuality. 00:00:59.549 --> 00:01:08.301 That was kind of motivated out of an article we had ran across of someone being fired from 00:01:08.301 --> 00:01:19.581 their Bible college position for kind of simply stating that the historical, historical, conservative 00:01:19.581 --> 00:01:25.301 Orthodox position of the church throughout really all of human history, with the exception 00:01:25.301 --> 00:01:31.721 of some factions now seeking to essentially deconstruct and rewrite what the church has 00:01:31.721 --> 00:01:40.161 historically believed and practiced and taught regarding the acceptance of homosexual behavior 00:01:40.161 --> 00:01:42.319 as non-sinful or okay. 00:01:42.733 --> 00:01:54.796 Yeah. He simply said, he was like, the view that homosexuality is not or is a sin is the historical 00:01:54.940 --> 00:02:01.467 normal position. The other position is the position that is should have the burden of proof. 00:02:02.277 --> 00:02:07.541 Right. And so we kind of took up his kind of challenge to kind of talk about it. And so. 00:02:09.470 --> 00:02:17.230 We got a handful of responses and questions from that episode. And so we felt like it 00:02:17.381 --> 00:02:23.781 merited just to continue that conversation a little bit, maybe go a little bit deeper in some 00:02:23.781 --> 00:02:30.598 areas. Before we turned the mics on, we weren't 100% sure where this podcast was going to exactly end up. 00:02:31.581 --> 00:02:35.712 Still not entirely sure. No, we're still not entirely sure. We're just gonna, we're 00:02:35.910 --> 00:02:37.980 we're uncut. That's the point. 00:02:38.041 --> 00:02:40.708 And as much as we're able to, we're shooting from the hip. 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:50.321 Yeah. So we did want to kind of pick up with with some questions. I'll throw us I think what will probably be one of the 00:02:50.321 --> 00:02:55.058 easier questions, maybe, is what do we think about, quote, 00:02:55.821 --> 00:02:57.605 unquote, conversion therapy? 00:02:58.721 --> 00:03:04.087 Yeah. So it is, you know, I. 00:03:05.734 --> 00:03:17.869 The question as it's posed, I think, assumes or presumes a certain type of conversion therapy. Yes. 00:03:18.671 --> 00:03:25.948 Because I mean, like, I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's like, usually when someone talks about conversion 00:03:25.948 --> 00:03:33.228 therapy, they're talking about it in the most negative of sense. 00:03:33.228 --> 00:03:34.217 Majority of sense. 00:03:34.722 --> 00:03:38.989 Yeah. that it is a heavy-handed. 00:03:41.748 --> 00:03:44.462 Kind of pray it away type of... 00:03:46.588 --> 00:03:53.068 I'm not familiar with conversion therapy, not something I've looked into significantly. 00:03:53.068 --> 00:03:59.703 The image that comes into my mind is the throw you away at a camp for three months 00:03:59.828 --> 00:04:04.828 and like lock you down and like make you do camp activities, 00:04:05.768 --> 00:04:10.768 with strange therapeutic intent behind it. 00:04:12.268 --> 00:04:20.984 Essentially in kind of a reverse way, indoctrinate the person towards denying. 00:04:21.588 --> 00:04:25.809 That they experience same sex attraction. Right, like no, this isn't really true. 00:04:26.575 --> 00:04:31.508 You know, you're being deceived, you can't just kind of like, 00:04:32.219 --> 00:04:38.028 either put it out of your mind or stop thinking about it, or we're gonna lock you in a room and pray over you 00:04:38.028 --> 00:04:42.599 until you no longer feel these types of urges or attractions or whatever. 00:04:44.028 --> 00:04:52.060 Now, like you said, I'm in the same boat. I don't have any, I've never had any exposure, 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:57.268 to any like conversion therapy. 00:04:57.268 --> 00:05:04.204 I don't know anyone who has done it or has been through it or anything like that. 00:05:04.288 --> 00:05:12.702 So it's only a response out of what is been maybe a caricature of it in the media or whatever. 00:05:16.510 --> 00:05:22.515 So, you know, yeah, totally speaking out of non experience, right? 00:05:24.432 --> 00:05:34.560 So if we were to take the most, what is probably the most biased view of it being holy and 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:43.000 completely negative and pejorative, you know, then if you were to ask me the question, what 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.966 what do I think of conversion therapy? 00:05:47.580 --> 00:05:51.187 I would say that I don't like it. 00:05:52.860 --> 00:05:56.540 Yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know how else to, I don't know how else to talk about it 00:05:56.540 --> 00:06:01.540 or how else to say it anymore than it would be. 00:06:03.020 --> 00:06:12.576 It feels to me like, and again, this is without knowing it, it feels to me to leverage a certain amount of shame. 00:06:15.900 --> 00:06:26.140 Against an individual and maybe bend towards the encouragement to just deny what you may actually 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:31.454 be thinking in light of like, well, we just got to do it a different way, 00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:41.580 rather than maybe addressing what is most significantly affecting or producing, maybe that's the wrong word, 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:50.460 the feelings, the thoughts, the urges, the proclivities that a person has. 00:06:50.674 --> 00:06:51.300 So. 00:06:53.096 --> 00:06:55.004 Yeah, I mean, you sit in the same camp. 00:06:57.300 --> 00:07:07.020 I think, like we're not counselors, we're pastors. But I will say that I find from my vantage point, 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:11.280 and experience, the, I don't know how else, 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:22.515 to really say it, the sort of therapeutic underlying thought is I think probably unhelpful. 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:45.210 And by that I mean simply the idea of What you are experiencing is something that we need to suppress or and or expunge or get rid of in an aggressive manner or in some sort of, or even that we necessarily can. 00:07:45.273 --> 00:07:49.153 I think... 00:07:51.826 --> 00:07:59.190 That's, at least in my experience, not exactly how temptation really works. Right. 00:08:00.297 --> 00:08:10.890 It's like, it's kind of the... Christians often... this is one of the things that sometimes 00:08:10.890 --> 00:08:14.110 happens even outside of same-sex attraction. 00:08:14.110 --> 00:08:19.770 Let's say we get a group of Christians who are struggling with, even let's just say pornography 00:08:19.770 --> 00:08:27.050 or as a heterosexual sexual sin or any sort of habitual type sin. 00:08:27.889 --> 00:08:34.010 And we, like, stereotypically the idea is like, get into a room and be accountable to 00:08:34.010 --> 00:08:37.279 one another, you know, and have this like really intense meeting. 00:08:38.030 --> 00:08:47.037 And what can sometimes happen in that is like, you can become so negatively focused on the, 00:08:47.530 --> 00:08:53.770 thing that you do not want to do. And then you're rehearsing how you're still doing the thing that 00:08:53.770 --> 00:08:59.770 you don't want to do with other people, talking about it, focusing on it. And then you're feeling 00:08:59.770 --> 00:09:03.530 guilt and shame about it because you're sitting in a group of other people and then you're having 00:09:03.530 --> 00:09:11.290 to say like, well, did you act out on that sin this week? And then you have to say, yes, something 00:09:11.541 --> 00:09:18.050 like that, and then you just feel more lousy about yourself, and you actually just end 00:09:18.050 --> 00:09:24.650 up spinning your wheels, or you end up learning to lie, or you end up being a Christian who's 00:09:24.650 --> 00:09:30.010 really good at exercising willpower, and you become puffed up because of it, because you 00:09:30.068 --> 00:09:36.127 can exercise willpower and not grace for personal transformation. 00:09:37.210 --> 00:09:47.210 And so that's, I think that's the same thing that conversion therapy is doing on one level, is it's rather than. 00:09:49.504 --> 00:09:57.954 Accepting that we have desires that are not in line with God's will, and gently bringing them before God's grace and throne, 00:09:58.704 --> 00:10:05.258 and knowing that there's grace, forgiveness, and strength there, and then kind of moving through that. 00:10:06.527 --> 00:10:16.601 That's what I think, at least that's my method of an understanding and even theology of how we deal with any temptation. Any temptation. 00:10:16.835 --> 00:10:27.602 And any sort of life change. any sin is accepting that that is part of us, that we are sinful, not in a like angry way, 00:10:27.782 --> 00:10:35.074 in a like, I am broken, coming before the great physician, and then humbly, gracefully, just like 00:10:35.074 --> 00:10:41.634 saying like, this is me. Like, I know that this won't necessarily go away, but can you give me 00:10:41.634 --> 00:10:47.695 me the strength to endure it? And can I experience grace, love, and acceptance as a son, as a, 00:10:48.676 --> 00:10:52.664 daughter, as a child of God, despite where I'm even currently at? 00:10:53.258 --> 00:11:02.089 And it seems to me, in my experience, that when people kind of go through that process 00:11:02.476 --> 00:11:13.702 with any sin that the ways in which God meets you and walks in that process with you tends 00:11:14.034 --> 00:11:15.341 to be different for each person. 00:11:16.493 --> 00:11:22.714 Yeah, 100%. The process tends to be different. The timeline is different. 00:11:22.714 --> 00:11:24.001 The experiences are different. 00:11:24.514 --> 00:11:30.914 The ups and downs are different. So to kind of categorize it as a systematized therapy, 00:11:31.594 --> 00:11:38.154 by which you just need converted is, you know, the underlying principles there 00:11:38.422 --> 00:11:39.359 I don't think are very healthy. 00:11:40.874 --> 00:11:49.274 I also feel like it may, and you know, like not knowing, you know, maybe this is a presumption 00:11:49.274 --> 00:11:51.827 or an assumption about conversion therapy, 00:11:52.511 --> 00:11:57.034 wondering if it's like, are we converting our desires? 00:11:59.767 --> 00:12:07.217 Or is conversion therapy meant to assume or presume that we, that our souls need converted, 00:12:09.093 --> 00:12:14.936 like that? Well, the reason that you're experiencing same-sex attraction or whatever, 00:12:15.777 --> 00:12:21.537 it would be, is because you have not yet surrendered your life to the Lord and we need 00:12:21.537 --> 00:12:29.114 to actually get you to a place of true repentance and true relationship with Jesus because we, 00:12:29.657 --> 00:12:31.743 know that will fix it. 00:12:32.217 --> 00:12:40.646 As if Paul did not write, like, I do what I do not want to do. 00:12:41.657 --> 00:12:49.577 But in all honesty, there are factions of Christian belief or thought, not Christian 00:12:49.577 --> 00:12:53.915 and belief, but Christians, I should say, who would presume to say, well, 00:12:56.058 --> 00:13:00.793 that they obviously are not saved, which I think is an important question. 00:13:04.257 --> 00:13:13.540 There is, I think, the assumption sometimes that those who struggle with same-sex attraction, 00:13:14.457 --> 00:13:16.511 or human sexuality issues in general, 00:13:17.681 --> 00:13:20.121 whether it be homosexuality or something else, 00:13:21.408 --> 00:13:22.822 cannot be Christian. 00:13:25.577 --> 00:13:26.576 They're not Christians. 00:13:29.457 --> 00:13:39.097 And so they need converted. They need saved. And I think that gets even down into the weeds 00:13:39.097 --> 00:13:48.977 even down into the weeds about their relationship with the church and how the church as a whole, 00:13:50.144 --> 00:13:54.393 maybe interacts with them or receives them or doesn't receive them, or... 00:13:55.878 --> 00:14:02.918 You know, interacts with them in the like, in the environment of Christian community. Yeah. 00:14:03.512 --> 00:14:10.288 You know? So, I mean, what do you, what do we think about that? You know? 00:14:11.328 --> 00:14:15.088 Well, I think I know, I think I know what I think about it. I know what I think about it. 00:14:15.968 --> 00:14:17.408 Let's talk about what we think about it. 00:14:17.408 --> 00:14:27.008 Well, okay, so let's just take...do we...I think it is sometimes, I think in this conversation, 00:14:27.008 --> 00:14:34.368 it's so much...we gain significant clarity when we zoom out from homosexuality and issues of 00:14:34.368 --> 00:14:40.528 sexuality in general, and we think a little bit more generally, and we just say, do Christians 00:14:40.528 --> 00:14:46.368 experience temptation and then also fall to temptation and remain saved. 00:14:47.248 --> 00:14:54.848 Yes. I would say that most people, and you're right, there are Christians out there who do not agree 00:14:54.848 --> 00:14:56.715 with what I just said and what we just affirmed. 00:14:56.922 --> 00:14:58.688 Correct. I think they're wrong. 00:15:00.802 --> 00:15:04.128 I think there's lots of reasons in the Bible to show that they're wrong. 00:15:04.128 --> 00:15:13.088 In the fact that almost every single example of human follower of God in the Bible sins, 00:15:14.612 --> 00:15:19.968 after having been a follower of God. I can't think of an example that doesn't. 00:15:20.238 --> 00:15:35.128 Right. And so then if we take that and we say, okay, does sexual sin constitute, like, is it a 00:15:35.128 --> 00:15:39.836 sin above and beyond all, it's like some sort of special category. 00:15:40.178 --> 00:15:45.211 I don't think so. I don't see the, I don't see a... 00:15:48.280 --> 00:15:53.412 Particularly, particularly if we're talking about same-sex attraction. 00:15:53.529 --> 00:15:57.391 If an individual is experiencing attraction to the same sex, 00:15:58.489 --> 00:16:05.682 that, I don't put that in a different category than I put someone who's experiencing temptation to 00:16:05.835 --> 00:16:13.090 look at porn of the opposite sex, or to steal, or to lie. 00:16:13.199 --> 00:16:24.587 I'm not putting those in different categories. those are all temptations and remnants of the old self, the fallen flesh that remains 00:16:24.650 --> 00:16:27.800 in us as Christians on this side of eternity. 00:16:28.650 --> 00:16:32.810 And I don't, I don't, so if someone comes to me and they say like, I'm experiencing 00:16:32.810 --> 00:16:38.450 same-sex attraction, my assumption, if they are a confessor of Christ, is not that they, 00:16:38.450 --> 00:16:44.090 well you just have not confessed Christ truly, you have not truly surrendered to his lordship. 00:16:44.090 --> 00:16:49.361 I'm assuming that they're just experiencing the same problem that all Christians are experiencing, 00:16:50.576 --> 00:16:55.610 but with this unique aspect. That's what I think. 00:16:57.886 --> 00:16:58.810 That's what I think too. Yeah. 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:03.610 That's what I think too. Like, can someone be a liar and still be a Christian? 00:17:05.673 --> 00:17:13.050 Can someone be an addict and still be a Christian? Can someone do X and still be a Christian? 00:17:13.050 --> 00:17:19.970 I think the very question presumes what does it mean to be Christian. 00:17:20.338 --> 00:17:28.539 And the presumption there is to be Christian means that has something to do primarily with, 00:17:29.151 --> 00:17:30.906 the things that you do or don't do. 00:17:31.970 --> 00:17:39.050 It becomes a, okay, I become a Christian when I don't do all of the bad things that the 00:17:39.050 --> 00:17:41.304 the Bible tells me not to do. 00:17:42.096 --> 00:17:45.859 And I don't believe that that's how someone... 00:17:47.173 --> 00:18:00.143 Becomes a Christian. I think we are adopted as sons and daughters of God when we express faith and trust in God's Son, Jesus Christ, when we trust that His work on the 00:18:00.143 --> 00:18:10.383 cross ransoms our life and gives us access to forgiveness of sins. And through His resurrection 00:18:10.383 --> 00:18:16.543 and through our faith in Jesus, we are resurrected and welcomed into eternal life as well, same 00:18:16.543 --> 00:18:18.383 and resurrection that Jesus experienced, 00:18:18.383 --> 00:18:20.463 we will experience as well. 00:18:20.463 --> 00:18:28.836 And so I think that the question of can you do X and still be a Christian starts from the point of, 00:18:29.023 --> 00:18:32.223 well, what does it mean to be a Christian? 00:18:32.707 --> 00:18:41.343 Because if being Christian means that we must abide by a moral checklist, then there are probably 00:18:41.343 --> 00:18:48.254 are a lot of very moral people who are not doing X, Y, or Z, but are not doing it in. 00:18:49.603 --> 00:18:52.746 A sense of their responsiveness to Jesus Christ in their life. 00:18:53.016 --> 00:18:59.263 They're doing it out of a sense of guilt or shame or morality or philosophy or whatever. 00:18:59.551 --> 00:19:09.983 Right. If Christianity and being in relationship with God is a result of keeping a moral checklist, 00:19:09.983 --> 00:19:17.457 conceivable that somebody could just keep that moral checklist without actually knowing Jesus. Without having any saving faith in Jesus. Right. Which is 00:19:17.783 --> 00:19:19.933 exactly what Paul says is not true, right? 00:19:21.247 --> 00:19:27.737 That our salvation is not by works, it is by faith so that no one can boast, Ephesians 2. 00:19:27.737 --> 00:19:36.617 Yeah, I mean, we're getting into the tension that is so clearly articulated in Romans, right? 00:19:37.977 --> 00:19:44.857 Therefore, there's no condemnation, but should we also sin all the more so that grace could 00:19:45.022 --> 00:19:50.177 increase, like, no, right? Like, we're like, if you want to, you 00:19:50.177 --> 00:19:56.137 want to see what the Bible says about that, that's what we think about that Romans, it's not, it's not that salvation gives 00:19:56.137 --> 00:20:02.097 us a sense of moral licentiousness, right? Just do whatever you want to do after expressing faith in Jesus 00:20:02.097 --> 00:20:04.908 Christ, because that's what actually really matters. No, 00:20:05.835 --> 00:20:10.363 they both matter. But there is a cart before the horse. Yes. 00:20:10.741 --> 00:20:15.417 And there is a, there is, you know, our morality. 00:20:17.497 --> 00:20:24.097 If you could call it that, we don't do any good works. All of our good works are filthy rags, right? 00:20:24.097 --> 00:20:31.497 Anything good that we do is the righteousness of Jesus in us, not our own, but our good works or our morality 00:20:31.497 --> 00:20:36.983 comes as a response to the life of Jesus in us or is the life of Jesus in us by his spirit, 00:20:37.177 --> 00:20:44.857 not our own good works that earn us the position that Jesus has already earned on the cross. 00:20:44.857 --> 00:20:49.253 So to ask the question and getting way back into it, can you be? 00:20:50.928 --> 00:20:55.658 Can you be a liar, can you be an addict and still be a Christian? 00:20:55.658 --> 00:21:03.258 The answer unequivocally for me is well yes, because the Christian faith is not dependent 00:21:03.258 --> 00:21:06.598 on a moral checklist, it is dependent on my faith in Jesus Christ. 00:21:06.598 --> 00:21:12.326 Now does that leave us in a state of, like we said, moral freedom? 00:21:12.738 --> 00:21:18.378 No, it doesn't. It does require something of us. It does require the work of sanctification in our lives. 00:21:18.378 --> 00:21:26.438 So that's then where the conversation, I think, begins. But it also, it requires that we ask about, 00:21:26.438 --> 00:21:29.158 well, what is the relationship with the church? 00:21:29.158 --> 00:21:34.838 Because I think that there are a bunch of acceptable sins that people are allowed to have when they're in the church, 00:21:34.838 --> 00:21:40.944 and there are a bunch of unacceptable ones. There are a bunch of sins that you're allowed to display. 00:21:43.958 --> 00:21:49.918 And I think we talked about this in part one, about like same-sex attraction being a part 00:21:49.918 --> 00:21:55.558 of someone's testimony is still not something that's really, it's pretty taboo. 00:21:55.558 --> 00:22:01.278 Pretty taboo, like if it's going to be part of your testimony, it better be like really far 00:22:01.278 --> 00:22:04.558 on the rear view mirror, you somehow got miraculously healed from it. 00:22:04.558 --> 00:22:07.042 Right, but other things are perfectly acceptable. 00:22:07.278 --> 00:22:13.278 I really struggle with greed or anger or lust even Yeah. 00:22:13.811 --> 00:22:24.158 Lust even, or pornography. Or the best, right? The best sin you could have is the sin of works. 00:22:24.158 --> 00:22:26.694 I just didn't understand. I was a really good person. 00:22:27.099 --> 00:22:29.592 I just didn't understand that I didn't need to be a good person, but I'm still a good, 00:22:30.232 --> 00:22:32.598 person anyways. Right. That's the perfect testimony. 00:22:32.598 --> 00:22:37.638 Yes. I'm also the most humble person that I know. 00:22:37.638 --> 00:22:41.403 I haven't always been that way. 00:22:42.118 --> 00:22:54.898 And so it feels to me like that there's still an incongruity in our ecclesiological practices about what... 00:22:55.278 --> 00:22:59.516 Because I think one of the next questions that we got was in the practical sense, what, 00:22:59.998 --> 00:23:06.187 do we do if there's a homosexual couple in our church? 00:23:06.376 --> 00:23:07.278 Yeah. 00:23:07.618 --> 00:23:12.078 Well, I think right here before we go further down that question, I think it might be important, 00:23:12.353 --> 00:23:21.716 to give people or to just mention the perspective we have as being pastors of a church. 00:23:22.918 --> 00:23:27.998 That I was reflecting on this and I was thinking, you know, I don't think that that's a vantage 00:23:27.998 --> 00:23:35.918 point that everyone who comes in and sits in a pew or a chair on a Sunday morning necessarily has. Right. 00:23:36.389 --> 00:23:37.918 And that is, and like. 00:23:40.179 --> 00:23:48.349 We are aware of people's shortcomings, perhaps more so than anyone else in the church. 00:23:49.794 --> 00:23:58.760 Like, we take pastoral confidentiality super seriously. We're not like, you know, 00:24:00.029 --> 00:24:04.029 putting people on blast or anything like that, not something we do. 00:24:04.029 --> 00:24:09.029 But we are just aware of the problems in people's lives. 00:24:10.649 --> 00:24:17.232 And we do see that like, when we're preaching, we know that we're preaching to people 00:24:17.409 --> 00:24:20.068 who have ongoing sin in their life, 00:24:20.349 --> 00:24:27.249 or are struggling with something, or wrestling through, or going through a really dry season of faith, 00:24:27.249 --> 00:24:29.689 or are coming here mourning this morning. 00:24:29.689 --> 00:24:32.338 We are aware of all of those different things. 00:24:33.009 --> 00:24:42.289 And so we're very comfortable with seeing the complexity and the, some of the nuances and dark sides. 00:24:45.729 --> 00:24:52.971 Of being in the spiritual life, being a Christian and not having it all together this morning, 00:24:53.729 --> 00:24:58.976 in a way that not necessarily everybody does on a Sunday morning. 00:24:59.129 --> 00:25:08.293 And I think the thing is about homosexuality, because it does impact the way in which we relate to people, 00:25:09.009 --> 00:25:14.973 particularly if you are practicing homosexuality, it's like it's on display. 00:25:16.409 --> 00:25:34.049 That I think it forces the average attender of a church average attender of a church to come to terms with the extent of God's grace in a way that maybe they 00:25:34.049 --> 00:25:39.135 don't normally have to because they can just pretend that everybody else has got it together 00:25:39.477 --> 00:25:44.609 and the one thing I don't got together, you know, I'm the only one and that's not that bad of a 00:25:44.609 --> 00:25:46.553 thing because nobody else can see it. 00:25:46.985 --> 00:25:48.609 Right. But we can all see that. 00:25:49.317 --> 00:25:55.348 Yeah. That's obviously not bad. Do you think that's a dynamic that's at play is my point made or? 00:25:55.834 --> 00:26:00.246 Yeah, I think that there's a… There's a… Hmm. 00:26:02.244 --> 00:26:07.555 You know, I think you could classify or talk about many of the besetting sins that people. 00:26:09.934 --> 00:26:16.170 Struggle with on a day-to-day basis as being more internal to them than. 00:26:18.835 --> 00:26:23.934 Someone who is in a homosexual relationship who comes to church with their partner. 00:26:24.219 --> 00:26:33.734 Mm-hmm That seems to be like front and center for people But you might struggle with for instance of an addiction to porn, 00:26:34.958 --> 00:26:39.513 that no one sees right that no one knows and so, 00:26:40.864 --> 00:26:49.134 You might be sitting in a Church pew with you know dozens of people around you aware, 00:26:50.433 --> 00:26:56.834 that there are That they like each person maybe has their sin, you know to put it very simply has their sin, 00:26:57.887 --> 00:27:05.094 But since I don't it's not a display for me. I Don't I don't got to see it right now. I don't got to deal with it, 00:27:06.232 --> 00:27:10.074 Then it does not require me to have really an opinion about it. 00:27:12.075 --> 00:27:20.534 You know, it doesn't require me to say well why why aren't we why aren't we holding that person accountable, right? Right. 00:27:21.014 --> 00:27:32.054 Which is, I mean, we've had people who struggle with same-sex attraction attend, conduit here, 00:27:32.054 --> 00:27:35.454 sometimes with their partner. 00:27:36.534 --> 00:27:41.557 And we've had comments about, like, well, why aren't we holding them accountable? 00:27:43.195 --> 00:27:54.774 Yeah. Right? And in a gentle but pastoral and admonishing way, if I have a sense of, if I've had a 00:27:54.774 --> 00:27:59.494 conversation with that person who's making the comment about their own life and their 00:27:59.494 --> 00:28:10.734 own sin before, it almost acts as an instructive moment to say, okay, you would like me to 00:28:10.734 --> 00:28:13.119 hold them accountable, all right? 00:28:16.414 --> 00:28:18.574 The conversations that I have with them are none of your business, 00:28:18.574 --> 00:28:23.654 but how about I hold you accountable now to the sin that is prevalent in your life? 00:28:23.841 --> 00:28:26.014 And that's usually, and it's usually, the response is usually like, 00:28:26.014 --> 00:28:27.109 well, it's not the same thing. Right. 00:28:28.614 --> 00:28:32.534 It's not the same thing. It's not. Well, it's not public, it's not like, 00:28:32.534 --> 00:28:33.680 public is what you want, right? 00:28:34.254 --> 00:28:38.854 You want the facade of righteousness, but not the inward disposition 00:28:39.153 --> 00:28:41.034 of having a heart completely surrender to God. 00:28:41.034 --> 00:28:48.554 So your pride is okay, as long as it stays internal, but the homosexual practice is not okay 00:28:48.554 --> 00:28:50.757 because it's external and everyone sees it. 00:28:50.892 --> 00:28:57.032 That's really my, that really for me is like the, The End. 00:28:58.788 --> 00:29:03.739 I don't know. I'm not going to say that it goes so far as to... Yeah, I get angry about it. 00:29:04.798 --> 00:29:06.158 I get angry about that. 00:29:06.158 --> 00:29:09.278 I think Jesus did too when he called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs. 00:29:09.278 --> 00:29:15.598 Right. Yeah. I get a little angry about that because it, again, just presupposes, 00:29:16.855 --> 00:29:24.798 that everyone who's sitting in the pews, everyone who's here trying to worship, 00:29:24.798 --> 00:29:29.758 everyone who's here listening to the proclamation of God's word is we're all here because we've got 00:29:29.758 --> 00:29:33.918 to figure it out and we're all here because we have arrived on the journey of righteousness with 00:29:33.918 --> 00:29:39.518 Jesus. Not that that person maybe, maybe they don't have a relationship with Jesus, maybe that's the 00:29:39.518 --> 00:29:43.518 first time in the building, maybe they're hearing the proclamation of the gospel for the first time, 00:29:43.518 --> 00:29:50.154 maybe they've never experienced a Christian community that actually looks at them and 00:29:50.334 --> 00:29:52.036 and treats them with grace and love, 00:29:53.458 --> 00:29:56.318 and compassion and gentleness and kindness. 00:29:56.318 --> 00:30:00.786 Maybe the only experience they've ever had is people saying, well, I mean, if you're, 00:30:01.318 --> 00:30:06.738 I mean, you obviously can't be Christian or be here because you're gay. You know, so. 00:30:08.658 --> 00:30:10.932 For me, it is a. 00:30:13.618 --> 00:30:22.398 Theologically repulsive attitude. And that is in still, that's still, 00:30:24.078 --> 00:30:29.062 that pulls against the other side of the teeter-totter that says, yeah, I do believe that, you know, 00:30:29.598 --> 00:30:36.543 God does call us to a place of holiness and righteousness that is beyond a place of our sin. 00:30:39.158 --> 00:30:45.118 You know, both fortunately and unfortunately as a pastor, I do not control the speed at which 00:30:45.118 --> 00:30:48.768 or the willingness at which someone walks that journey of sanctification. 00:30:49.245 --> 00:30:49.596 I don't. 00:30:50.614 --> 00:30:56.438 Yeah, we could, you can't kick someone down the path of holiness. 00:30:56.438 --> 00:30:59.301 And if you do, you usually end up just kicking them out of church. 00:30:59.638 --> 00:31:05.998 Exactly. Is kind of what we're, like if you want a quick diagnostic 00:31:05.998 --> 00:31:07.758 of why so many people are deconstructing 00:31:07.758 --> 00:31:11.678 and leaving the church, it's because that. 00:31:11.678 --> 00:31:18.438 It's because we've been kicking people down the path of righteousness and religiosity without pastoral care, 00:31:20.078 --> 00:31:22.320 love and support, grace and the gospel. 00:31:25.178 --> 00:31:30.178 You know, Paul, I think it's in one of the Corinthian books, 00:31:30.938 --> 00:31:39.568 but Paul says, you know, what is it that you have to be judging those who are outside of the church? 00:31:39.878 --> 00:31:46.014 And I think that's something really, I think that's a really important point, is that. 00:31:47.283 --> 00:31:55.682 Apart, and this is in my view, is that if apart from God, apart from a belief that God has created you, 00:31:56.186 --> 00:32:04.173 and that He has a revealed will for your life, and that He has an intention for human flourishing, 00:32:04.173 --> 00:32:10.333 and what is good and righteous and holy and respecting of Him, right? Apart from that. 00:32:11.589 --> 00:32:19.214 Why would you have an understanding of sexuality that Christians hold? And like, 00:32:20.321 --> 00:32:26.933 if you're, if I was, you know, if I was, you know, an atheist, like, I do not know 00:32:26.933 --> 00:32:39.333 why I would particularly be all that interested in anyone's sexuality and what they do. The moral framework for me and how I understand sexuality and how 00:32:39.333 --> 00:32:47.413 people conduct themselves, other than the philosophical, like, tenet of do no harm unto 00:32:47.413 --> 00:32:53.653 others. That would be the only philosophical tenet, really, as a starting point for me as an 00:32:53.653 --> 00:32:59.733 atheist. But I'm not an atheist, I'm a Christian, and so I believe that God has a revealed will. 00:33:00.543 --> 00:33:13.543 About sexuality, and so then I'm to receive that will and to submit myself to grace and conform myself to that will because that is what God's will is, and, 00:33:14.173 --> 00:33:19.331 out of submission and fear to God's will and the desire to follow after Jesus. But 00:33:19.573 --> 00:33:23.693 if you're not a Christian, I don't know why you would do that. Right. And we have 00:33:23.693 --> 00:33:27.893 a lot of Christians who are... Why I should expect you to do that. Why I should 00:33:27.893 --> 00:33:31.871 That's Paul's point, is why would you expect people 00:33:32.276 --> 00:33:35.706 who don't know Jesus to act like they know Jesus? 00:33:35.873 --> 00:33:39.919 Right, and isn't that what we talked about this just last night in the class that we were teaching 00:33:40.324 --> 00:33:42.913 on the Holy Spirit, right? 00:33:42.913 --> 00:33:52.353 And Paul's words about, I think it's in 1 Corinthians 2, on the man that does not have the spirit of God 00:33:52.473 --> 00:33:56.113 cannot know the things of God, cannot know the mind and heart of God. 00:33:56.113 --> 00:33:57.492 Their foolishness to him. 00:33:58.860 --> 00:34:03.136 Right. And so if someone is new at the beginning. 00:34:05.513 --> 00:34:12.003 At the pre-stages of even following Jesus, like that's not the most important thing. 00:34:12.153 --> 00:34:19.214 It's not, in my view, like their sexuality is not the most important thing. 00:34:19.333 --> 00:34:22.608 The most important thing is whether or not they know Jesus. 00:34:22.793 --> 00:34:31.106 And I think sometimes, as someone comes into the church, we see, oh, they're living an alternative sexual lifestyle. 00:34:33.078 --> 00:34:39.325 That is the one thing that we must fix. That's the one thing we must fix. And we don't focus on showing them the love of Christ, 00:34:39.586 --> 00:34:43.088 pointing them to the cross, demonstrating the truth of the gospel. 00:34:44.688 --> 00:34:49.168 Gently showing that God has a will for their life, and that is revealed in the Bible. 00:34:50.688 --> 00:34:57.728 Instead, we're fixated on getting them to stop doing something, that they have no basis for 00:34:57.834 --> 00:35:05.088 doing it. Right? Like if you're not interested in following Jesus and following God's will for your 00:35:05.088 --> 00:35:11.968 life, why would you? Why would you? Why would you? And how do you become interested in following 00:35:11.968 --> 00:35:18.809 God's will for your life? Well, you know God. You recognize that you are in need of Him and you come 00:35:18.928 --> 00:35:24.768 to Him for salvation. Submit your life, lose your life, find it in Christ, and then experience 00:35:24.768 --> 00:35:27.073 transformation. And so... 00:35:28.243 --> 00:35:32.688 Yep. Period. Period. End of the sentence. Thanks for joining us today. 00:35:32.688 --> 00:35:38.688 I mean, I got... You know, that kind of is... Even that really does sum it up. 00:35:38.688 --> 00:35:41.504 So what would be the response if someone... 00:35:42.608 --> 00:35:46.928 If a homo... I mean, that's how the question essentially is formed, right? 00:35:46.928 --> 00:35:50.263 Yeah, if an openly homosexual couple were to attend our church. 00:35:50.965 --> 00:35:51.298 Welcome. 00:35:52.028 --> 00:35:58.928 Yep. We hope that you meet Jesus here. Because I know that if you earnestly meet Jesus and want to meet Jesus, then Jesus is going to do 00:35:58.928 --> 00:36:00.625 do with you what Jesus needs to do with you. 00:36:01.534 --> 00:36:04.397 Yeah. Apart from through me or in spite of me. 00:36:05.378 --> 00:36:05.972 Yep. and. 00:36:09.150 --> 00:36:16.334 And that doesn't mean that we're not gonna... Like you're preaching on Romans later this year. 00:36:16.865 --> 00:36:20.331 Yep. Right? Romans has things to say about this. Oh, yes. 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:25.831 I'm sure that will be a topic that comes across. It will be. 00:36:25.921 --> 00:36:32.760 Right? And so it's not that we would ever avoid or hedge what we believe or teach here, what 00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:34.040 we think God's will is. 00:36:34.040 --> 00:36:36.760 For crying out loud, we're putting it on the internet right now for all to see. 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:40.240 You know, like this is gonna live forever. My great grandkids are gonna be able to watch this video. 00:36:40.240 --> 00:36:45.240 So. Yeah, that's true. Oh, that's weird. Um, let's not think anymore about that. 00:36:47.160 --> 00:36:55.040 But like, just to, I don't know, in context, we still do believe that homosexuality is incongruent 00:36:55.170 --> 00:36:57.480 with Christian life, that that's not what the Bible teaches, 00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.381 that like, it's what we believe, right? 00:37:01.921 --> 00:37:06.840 Right from the very foundations of the creation of the world and creation of man and woman 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.880 and the identity of their genders and the role of their genders. 00:37:12.600 --> 00:37:18.395 Yeah, it's not a very popular contemporary opinion to hold, but it is the opinion that we hold. 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:25.147 Well, one way of summarizing this in a pithy way, because we might be asked, 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:30.494 well, is conduit an affirming church? That might be a question that we have gotten or will get more. 00:37:31.080 --> 00:37:37.849 And a simple way of maybe answering that might be to say that we're welcoming but not affirming. 00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:43.020 Yeah, I think for those who are listening or watching or whatever, it might be helpful for them 00:37:43.020 --> 00:37:45.681 for you to define what you mean by affirming. 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:58.221 Right, affirming generally is the shorthand way of saying that we approve of slash affirm Bye. 00:37:59.617 --> 00:38:08.627 Any sexual behavior, particularly homosexuality. That we don't see any incongruency 00:38:08.627 --> 00:38:13.057 between whatever sexual behavior that you choose in Christian life and teaching. Right. 00:38:14.020 --> 00:38:19.867 Right. So that is what that typically means. And by that definition, we are not affirming. 00:38:19.867 --> 00:38:20.727 We are not affirming. 00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:32.277 Right. Because this isn't an issue that, The way that the lines are drawn, you can't not take a position on that. 00:38:32.987 --> 00:38:39.787 If the question is, are you affirming or are you not affirming, you have to be, you can't 00:38:39.787 --> 00:38:41.783 say, well, I just choose not to decide. 00:38:42.279 --> 00:38:48.193 Yeah. Well, because if you've chosen not to decide and you've chosen to take no stance on it, 00:38:48.307 --> 00:38:53.162 you have de facto essentially become affirming. You've taken a stance. 00:38:53.467 --> 00:38:59.113 And so one is unable to not make a choice in that conversation. 00:38:59.567 --> 00:39:01.669 And so we're not affirming. But we are welcoming, right? 00:39:03.167 --> 00:39:06.807 To put it maybe in another sense. Yeah. Yeah. 00:39:07.341 --> 00:39:15.047 I mean, absolutely. Like there's not a single person in the whole world that's not welcome here, I think. 00:39:15.047 --> 00:39:17.407 I mean, like, I don't know. I didn't think about that statement for a second. 00:39:17.407 --> 00:39:17.765 You know, it's a pretty absolute statement. 00:39:18.847 --> 00:39:22.708 Yeah. It's like, you know, well, within pastoral reason. Right. 00:39:23.266 --> 00:39:28.047 People safe here. Exactly. I think everyone understands what I'm talking about. But like, 00:39:28.047 --> 00:39:33.007 yeah, if you wanna hear the gospel, you're gonna hear the gospel here. I don't care who you are. 00:39:33.655 --> 00:39:44.727 Yeah. What? I think it might, it might be helpful to, so we were, we were sent a. 00:39:47.752 --> 00:39:52.642 A brief, I won't call it like a significant theological statement, but we were sent a 00:39:52.642 --> 00:39:57.682 statement by a church that had kind of done some wrestling, and it decided to become an 00:39:57.682 --> 00:40:08.722 affirming church. And they had a couple of sort of, I guess, theological principles that they 00:40:08.722 --> 00:40:15.602 sort of used as their jumping off point for their decision. Do you feel like that would be worthwhile 00:40:15.602 --> 00:40:19.035 for us to kind of just talk about briefly to kind of give some... 00:40:19.202 --> 00:40:21.442 Yeah, we can see it. You have it where you can pull it up and we can... 00:40:21.442 --> 00:40:25.842 Yeah, I can pull that up for us. So let's see. 00:40:30.242 --> 00:40:34.402 So this church, I'm not in any way as familiar with this church, 00:40:34.402 --> 00:40:40.402 not interested in putting them on blast, but their statement, 00:40:40.775 --> 00:40:45.439 they have decided to become an open and affirming congregation. 00:40:46.002 --> 00:40:50.842 And they say, this means that we affirm our belief that all people are created in the image of God 00:40:50.842 --> 00:40:55.922 without regard to age, disability, gender, including gender identity, expression, race, ethnicity, 00:40:55.922 --> 00:41:00.517 social or educational status and sexual orientation. 00:41:01.802 --> 00:41:05.322 It's a really long sentence. Yeah, okay. So can we pause there for a second? 00:41:05.322 --> 00:41:06.657 Yeah. And respond to that part? Yeah. 00:41:07.822 --> 00:41:13.062 They're saying we affirm and believe essentially that all people are created in the image of God 00:41:13.062 --> 00:41:14.597 no matter what. Correct. 00:41:15.622 --> 00:41:19.782 Agree. Yes. I agree. We also agree. Yes, we agree. 00:41:20.169 --> 00:41:22.982 We confirm. Confirm people are made in the image of God. Absolutely. 00:41:22.982 --> 00:41:26.702 Biblical truth. Very biblical. Yes. Stated in Genesis. 00:41:27.713 --> 00:41:33.070 Right. 100%. Yep. No matter what, you have value, have worth, 00:41:33.622 --> 00:41:36.832 are important to God and therefore important to us. 00:41:37.850 --> 00:41:40.649 Like period. Yeah. One does not degrade the image of God. 00:41:44.124 --> 00:41:49.614 They say they have a history of having just been welcoming is the words that they use, 00:41:51.254 --> 00:41:58.798 And then they the other main kind of theological point that they make here is they say in his letter to the church in 00:41:59.094 --> 00:42:04.554 Galatia the Apostle Paul writes you are all God's children through faith in Christ Jesus, 00:42:05.127 --> 00:42:10.674 All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself of Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek 00:42:10.674 --> 00:42:18.914 there is neither slave nor free, nor is there male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.". 00:42:20.746 --> 00:42:28.034 Agreed. Again, it ignores the context of Paul's letter to the Galatians, which he's speaking in 00:42:28.034 --> 00:42:38.914 terms of salvation. The context of Paul's, there is neither male nor free, slave nor free, Greek 00:42:38.914 --> 00:42:43.994 Greek or Jew, essentially, male or female, all are one in Christ Jesus. 00:42:43.994 --> 00:42:52.299 The context of Paul's letter there, the context of Paul's thought is that salvation is accessible 00:42:52.613 --> 00:42:57.799 in Jesus Christ to all who would come to faith in Jesus Christ. 00:42:58.942 --> 00:42:57.799 Correct. 00:42:59.094 --> 00:43:03.914 Which is what we were saying earlier, right? Exactly. Right? 00:43:03.914 --> 00:43:06.162 We've affirmed that. Right. 00:43:06.324 --> 00:43:10.465 Right? what Paul's not saying is nothing matters. 00:43:11.968 --> 00:43:15.983 It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter what you practice. 00:43:16.677 --> 00:43:24.202 It doesn't matter whether or not you have like life-saving faith, like. 00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.610 We all come together. We're all like we're all the same. We're all we're all one, 00:43:31.674 --> 00:43:39.670 I think that that's the implication behind the use of that. Yes, that's the understanding is that there's some there's some sort of implied, 00:43:40.670 --> 00:43:48.850 universalism right of both belief or practice or position or whatever the case may be but. 00:43:50.730 --> 00:43:53.973 We don't believe or agree with that. 00:43:54.504 --> 00:44:01.450 And so, if that is the mark of being an affirming church, again, then I would say that we're not affirming, 00:44:01.450 --> 00:44:04.770 but we are welcoming in the same way 00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:10.708 that the Spirit of God is welcoming to all those who would come to seek Him and to know Him, 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.678 that those who seek Him will find Him when they seek Him with all of their heart, 00:44:15.911 --> 00:44:28.950 And that if someone who comes in is off like a two-week bender on drugs and alcohol and 00:44:28.950 --> 00:44:37.070 active addiction, but is here and is like seeking to know God, seeking to experience 00:44:37.070 --> 00:44:44.790 something of His grace and His love for them, then yes, we openly welcome you into this 00:44:44.790 --> 00:44:47.302 community that you might know the grace of God, 00:44:47.990 --> 00:44:55.270 experience the love of God, and meet with Jesus that he can transform you, or someone who is, 00:44:55.510 --> 00:45:01.778 you know, like, has an addiction to pornography, or who is, has same-sex attraction, 00:45:02.390 --> 00:45:12.810 or has any other, like, issue that we would classically consider to be sin or contrary to Christian thought, 00:45:12.810 --> 00:45:16.010 doctrine or teaching or biblical doctrine or teaching. 00:45:16.210 --> 00:45:18.045 So I think that. 00:45:20.197 --> 00:45:24.287 I don't know that church. I don't know the pastor. I don't know. You didn't even show 00:45:24.287 --> 00:45:30.207 me the thing, so I couldn't even look it up if I knew it. But I think that if I'm being honest, 00:45:31.198 --> 00:45:35.807 it feels like they wanted to say something about it without actually really saying anything. 00:45:35.807 --> 00:45:44.746 RL Well, no. PJ From my reading it, it sounds like they had already taken a stance of affirming, and they just had... 00:45:45.807 --> 00:45:49.527 RL Reaffirmed. Reaffirmed. Reaffirmed. Yeah. 00:45:49.527 --> 00:45:54.267 I guess that they were an affirming or that they weren't going to hold that line. 00:45:54.267 --> 00:45:57.027 Because there isn't, there's not much of an argument in there. 00:45:57.027 --> 00:46:03.047 There's just some simple statements that they have assumed, right? 00:46:03.047 --> 00:46:09.700 There's an assumption that if we call this a sin, we have somehow... Ostracized. 00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:19.487 Ostracized. Ostracized, or we have not upheld the human dignity, the image of God, in that we're somehow 00:46:19.487 --> 00:46:23.387 disregarding the equal footing of the gospel. 00:46:23.807 --> 00:46:25.301 And we simply believe that that is... 00:46:26.927 --> 00:46:32.557 Those are not mutually exclusive. Not mutually exclusive. Peace. 00:46:34.060 --> 00:46:37.590 So there's an underlying assumption there that I think they're making. 00:46:39.281 --> 00:46:43.531 I mean, there certainly are more like tributaries to this conversation that we could 00:46:43.801 --> 00:46:48.470 have, whether or not those are interesting to people or not is, I think, a question. And, 00:46:49.283 --> 00:46:53.430 there are some questions that we still have and are wrestling with. And like, 00:46:53.430 --> 00:46:58.150 we talked about a few of those before we turn the mics on, like, you know. 00:46:59.384 --> 00:47:12.030 Know, transgenderism and general gender dysphoria and the confusion that surrounds all of those conversations. 00:47:12.030 --> 00:47:20.750 Again, I'm not an expert on human psychology or human sexuality. 00:47:20.881 --> 00:47:27.470 And I know the word. And so that's where my kind of expertise lies. 00:47:27.470 --> 00:47:29.830 If you wanna talk about the word of God or you wanna talk about jujitsu, 00:47:29.830 --> 00:47:34.470 I can talk about those two with somewhat expert level mastery. 00:47:34.470 --> 00:47:36.710 Me, it's sci-fi and Bible. Right. 00:47:36.710 --> 00:47:44.026 But other things, I'm kind of having conversations based on inference. 00:47:44.476 --> 00:47:48.510 But some people are, they're curious about those types of things. 00:47:48.510 --> 00:47:53.770 And I don't, neither of us are sitting here pretending to be or presuming to be experts 00:47:53.770 --> 00:47:57.160 on human psychology or sexuality or anything like that. 00:47:57.290 --> 00:48:02.003 We're just pastors in practice at a church trying to be faithful to the word. 00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:09.530 Exactly. So, I mean, if you have more questions that you would like to see us respond to 00:48:09.530 --> 00:48:17.415 or wrestle with in regards to this topic or corollary topics, you're always free to send those to us. 00:48:17.690 --> 00:48:21.790 You can comment wherever it is that you're consuming the podcast, 00:48:21.790 --> 00:48:27.237 YouTube or Apple or Google or whatever. We'd also appreciate it if you would comment. 00:48:28.551 --> 00:48:31.670 Yeah. Even if you say, hey, I liked it or hey, I didn't like it. 00:48:31.670 --> 00:48:38.670 Yeah. If you're listening on Spotify or iTunes, leave us a review if you find this helpful. 00:48:38.670 --> 00:48:41.415 Like that would be a huge honor to us if you did that. 00:48:42.414 --> 00:48:41.415 Yep. 00:48:42.430 --> 00:48:48.350 And then of course we always have our text line. Yep. Which allows for you to ask questions. 00:48:48.734 --> 00:48:55.873 Yep. those even if you don't necessarily get a response and that question doesn't come up right away, like we get those. 00:48:56.150 --> 00:49:01.150 Yes, that text line is 716-201-0507. 00:49:02.310 --> 00:49:09.230 And if it's pertinent to like a part two or a part three, we'll add it into the next episode. 00:49:09.230 --> 00:49:11.950 If it's not, then we'll just add it to our next. 00:49:12.080 --> 00:49:32.052 Music. 00:49:32.026 --> 00:49:12.068 Ever up.