1 00:00:09,510 --> 00:00:09,780 Phil Sturgeon: and 2 00:00:09,780 --> 00:00:10,620 Mike Bifulco: we'll come back to APIs. 3 00:00:10,620 --> 00:00:13,200 You won't hate it's me, Mike, with Phil here, Phil. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:13,680 How's it going? 5 00:00:13,890 --> 00:00:14,670 Phil Sturgeon: Hey, pretty good. 6 00:00:14,670 --> 00:00:16,680 I've been out in a failed plan entries in the rhino day. 7 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:17,730 So just, you know, 8 00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:19,800 Mike Bifulco: normal pretty standard stuff. 9 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:20,010 Yeah. 10 00:00:20,010 --> 00:00:21,180 Where in the world are you? 11 00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:22,590 Uh, catching up with me from today? 12 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:24,150 Phil Sturgeon: Southwest of England. 13 00:00:24,150 --> 00:00:26,460 Again, she's is my usual corner of the world. 14 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:27,000 These. 15 00:00:28,830 --> 00:00:29,100 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 16 00:00:29,100 --> 00:00:31,680 It's an odd feeling that you have a usual place to me. 17 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:38,640 I don't think I'll ever quite get used to that because it sort of feels like you're, you're hopping about and jumping from forest to forest, like a, an idea. 18 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,050 I can't quite get a grasp on. 19 00:00:40,710 --> 00:00:41,700 Phil Sturgeon: That's been all over the place. 20 00:00:41,700 --> 00:00:42,810 I mean, it's been a bit weird. 21 00:00:42,810 --> 00:00:44,610 I'm in the peak district. 22 00:00:45,165 --> 00:00:50,595 Near Manchester one day and then like north Wales around the corner, the next looking at a bit of land and then 23 00:00:50,864 --> 00:00:53,745 rushing off to, to do a planning project in London. 24 00:00:53,804 --> 00:01:01,515 And then I've been putting some real miles on my like electric rental thing, but, uh, hopefully I can ditch the car soon and 25 00:01:01,515 --> 00:01:04,304 get back to being, uh, the wandering woodsmen on, on two wheels. 26 00:01:04,304 --> 00:01:07,455 Cause, uh, I'm recovered from my, from my injury surgery. 27 00:01:07,455 --> 00:01:08,505 Recovery has gone nicely. 28 00:01:08,505 --> 00:01:14,445 I'm I'm back and I can like lift stuff without crying and um, Back to back to health. 29 00:01:14,774 --> 00:01:18,765 So, uh, yeah, there'll be plenty of moving around, but it will be, it'll be bike powered instead. 30 00:01:19,095 --> 00:01:19,455 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 31 00:01:19,455 --> 00:01:20,145 Well, that's great to hear. 32 00:01:20,145 --> 00:01:21,914 I'm glad to hear your recovery is going well. 33 00:01:22,035 --> 00:01:24,765 Did, did you end up having two surgeries? 34 00:01:25,425 --> 00:01:25,845 No, just 35 00:01:25,845 --> 00:01:26,715 Phil Sturgeon: the one in the end. 36 00:01:26,745 --> 00:01:29,715 The, um, there was some like other side effects. 37 00:01:29,955 --> 00:01:30,285 Basically. 38 00:01:30,285 --> 00:01:33,705 I had like a surgery and then I was still in loads of pain and I said, what the hell is going on? 39 00:01:33,975 --> 00:01:35,324 And basically it's just cause. 40 00:01:36,390 --> 00:01:40,619 I had gone from being incredibly active to sitting on the couch for four months. 41 00:01:40,890 --> 00:01:45,960 Um, there weren't like loads of other problems going on, like crazy stomach acid, just like causing pain everywhere. 42 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:50,850 So it seemed like there was something much bigger going on, but it was like, oh no, you've just been really lazy for a while. 43 00:01:50,850 --> 00:01:52,259 And your body's upset about it. 44 00:01:54,270 --> 00:01:54,509 Yeah. 45 00:01:54,570 --> 00:01:54,970 So. 46 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:56,530 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 47 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:56,860 Yeah. 48 00:01:56,890 --> 00:01:57,250 Cool. 49 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:57,970 Well, I'm glad to hear it. 50 00:01:57,970 --> 00:01:59,320 I'm glad you're back in one piece. 51 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,700 And I guess just probably as the weather starts to get a little nicer there, you can get back on two wheels and 52 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:06,040 kind of start to do all the things that you'd like to do. 53 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:07,030 Phil Sturgeon: Yeah. 54 00:02:07,030 --> 00:02:13,720 We're currently being battered by storm Ursula, which is a ridiculous name for quite a vicious storm, but, uh, yeah, 55 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,640 the weather should start getting nicer in a couple of days. 56 00:02:16,330 --> 00:02:16,690 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 57 00:02:16,750 --> 00:02:17,800 Well, I'm glad to hear it. 58 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,730 I want to get an update from you on, uh, your, uh, work with protect. 59 00:02:22,530 --> 00:02:24,959 I want to hear a little bit about what's been going on with APS. 60 00:02:24,970 --> 00:02:25,440 You won't hate. 61 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,609 And some of the work we've put out there, but first, before we do that, let's hear a little bit from our sponsors. 62 00:02:31,334 --> 00:02:36,704 This episode of APS you won't hate is brought to you by triple treble is an API management platform that helps 63 00:02:36,704 --> 00:02:39,045 developers and companies understand their APIs better. 64 00:02:39,285 --> 00:02:41,204 And then the process saves a lot of time and money. 65 00:02:41,385 --> 00:02:47,174 What started out as a solution for their own problems has grown into a platform that's processing more than 9 million API requests a month. 66 00:02:47,355 --> 00:02:53,475 Treble features real-time API monitoring, automatically generated documentation, logging and error tracking, API 67 00:02:53,475 --> 00:02:57,015 analytics, and one click API testing to learn more about trouble. 68 00:02:57,045 --> 00:02:59,505 Go to treble.com/api, as you love. 69 00:03:00,045 --> 00:03:04,394 That's trebled, T R E B L L e.com/api, as you. 70 00:03:04,845 --> 00:03:07,334 Thank you so much to trouble for sponsoring API rotate. 71 00:03:10,665 --> 00:03:13,334 This episode of APS you won't hate is brought to you by lob. 72 00:03:13,785 --> 00:03:19,214 Lob is a group of passionate people working towards their vision of increasing connectivity between the offline and online worlds. 73 00:03:19,484 --> 00:03:20,204 They helped developers. 74 00:03:20,740 --> 00:03:22,480 Card's letters and checks is easily. 75 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:29,020 It's email through restful APIs, lobbyists looking for engineers at all levels, interested in joining a successful growth stage startup. 76 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,320 They offer collaborative culture, supporting teamwork and mentorship. 77 00:03:32,350 --> 00:03:36,520 Their founders have a strong vision of building a product led organization, and it's an opportunity to have a 78 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,860 big impact on LOBs business and engineering culture. 79 00:03:39,250 --> 00:03:45,190 Lob is built using open API specifications for contract testing, generating documentation, and soon SDK. 80 00:03:45,670 --> 00:03:50,260 Their API is written in the mix of JavaScript go Lang and elixir and their customer facing deck. 81 00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:51,880 Built with Vue JS. 82 00:03:52,060 --> 00:03:56,740 If you're interested in joining lob, check them out online at lob.com/careers. 83 00:03:56,950 --> 00:03:59,560 Thank you so much to LA for sponsoring APS, you will need. 84 00:04:02,595 --> 00:04:03,614 And we're back. 85 00:04:03,704 --> 00:04:05,714 So Phil tell me you've been outside. 86 00:04:05,714 --> 00:04:06,765 You've been doing things. 87 00:04:06,795 --> 00:04:07,304 Uh what's. 88 00:04:07,304 --> 00:04:08,295 What's the latest with the 89 00:04:08,295 --> 00:04:08,744 Phil Sturgeon: charity. 90 00:04:09,075 --> 00:04:09,405 Yeah. 91 00:04:09,405 --> 00:04:12,015 I've barely been looking at my laptop, which is ridiculous. 92 00:04:12,015 --> 00:04:16,154 Cause there's a lot more planning work to be done, but it is the height of planting season. 93 00:04:16,185 --> 00:04:18,375 I'm pretty much planting trees every day. 94 00:04:18,495 --> 00:04:24,914 Sometimes it's a volunteer project where there's 60 of us trying to get through 5,000 trees in three days and 95 00:04:25,245 --> 00:04:28,155 sometimes there's eight of us and we've got, I've got some. 96 00:04:28,965 --> 00:04:30,495 Tough paid planters. 97 00:04:30,585 --> 00:04:36,405 You know, we had a few projects where there was maybe eight of us doing 1,500 trees a day. 98 00:04:36,585 --> 00:04:40,455 So the, the number of trees we can get done in a day really varies project to project. 99 00:04:40,455 --> 00:04:42,525 But yeah, there's loads of projects going on. 100 00:04:42,625 --> 00:04:50,065 It's pretty much every day, like back to back, um, Thursday, I'll be in the Cotswolds Friday, I'll be in London or weekend. 101 00:04:50,065 --> 00:04:51,105 There'll be up in Manchester. 102 00:04:51,135 --> 00:04:56,445 It's like, as soon as it gets dark planting, I jump in the car and you're just scream off to the next project. 103 00:04:56,655 --> 00:04:57,705 But yeah, the. 104 00:04:59,175 --> 00:05:03,555 The charities and a funny place, because we've, we've basically paid for paid for loads and loads and loads 105 00:05:03,555 --> 00:05:06,255 of trees and been planting loads and loads of trees. 106 00:05:06,585 --> 00:05:08,765 And now I've got to do the job of documenting all the. 107 00:05:09,570 --> 00:05:14,100 So that they start showing up on people's ecology profiles and everywhere else where we get our money from. 108 00:05:14,460 --> 00:05:16,620 And we've had a few new funding partners on board. 109 00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:22,860 So I've had to do some work on our API, um, and the iPhone app to, because we use an iPhone out to take photographs of all the 110 00:05:22,860 --> 00:05:28,110 trees that gets them up in our API and then funding partners can pull those, those photographs of trees in for whatever. 111 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:37,610 And yeah, that's a layer of our PHP app that Matt originally put together and it's using a whole bunch of open API as well. 112 00:05:37,610 --> 00:05:39,110 So it feels pretty cool. 113 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:47,010 Quit working in tech and quit working on API APIs, but still be doing modes of API work and open API work, and then writing about it. 114 00:05:47,010 --> 00:05:47,969 VPAs you and hate. 115 00:05:47,969 --> 00:05:49,559 So I haven't gone too far. 116 00:05:50,250 --> 00:05:50,520 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 117 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:56,820 It's rarely to get, to actually be able to meaningfully use the stuff you we want to build and, and, uh, be 118 00:05:56,820 --> 00:05:59,159 your own user is kind of an interesting place to be in. 119 00:05:59,369 --> 00:06:00,989 So give me a sense of scale here. 120 00:06:01,020 --> 00:06:02,640 I know it's been a long winter for you. 121 00:06:02,909 --> 00:06:07,979 Do you have some estimate for how many trees you've planted with your volunteers in the past few? 122 00:06:09,539 --> 00:06:14,640 Phil Sturgeon: We planted 3000 trees, roughly, I think in the last winter. 123 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:22,830 And then this winter we've done, uh, we've done about 15,000 under projects that we kind of directly control, but I know that there's another 124 00:06:24,090 --> 00:06:27,210 double that there's another like 17,000 floating around that we have. 125 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,510 Paid for, but I haven't gone out to the projects to see them yet. 126 00:06:30,540 --> 00:06:35,460 So we're looking at about whatever, 35,000 trees this season, and there are still more to come. 127 00:06:35,670 --> 00:06:40,680 We've probably got another, I've got like another 10,000 left to do before the middle of March. 128 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:41,969 It's all a bit bonkers. 129 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:48,690 Um, so we've really, really grown that up and we're starting to get our hands on huge chunks of land as well. 130 00:06:48,690 --> 00:06:50,250 So we've, um, we've just had. 131 00:06:51,065 --> 00:06:56,375 It's only seven more sleeps until we get our hands on the Cornish bit of land, the ancient replanted, Woodland. 132 00:06:56,794 --> 00:06:57,094 Heck. 133 00:06:57,094 --> 00:06:57,544 Yeah. 134 00:06:57,575 --> 00:07:00,544 And that has been an emotional rollercoaster since October. 135 00:07:00,544 --> 00:07:03,125 Cause there's been so many times where it seemed like we might not get it. 136 00:07:03,395 --> 00:07:09,844 There was a few issues around like VAT and, and like negotiations with a philanthropic donor. 137 00:07:10,085 --> 00:07:15,635 And there's been a lot of different things going on, but like I think, yeah, contracts are being exchanged in, in seven, seven days. 138 00:07:15,755 --> 00:07:16,715 Oh, that's amazing. 139 00:07:17,865 --> 00:07:24,585 And we've started working with people who were basically the original plan was that we kind of raised a bunch of money from donors and 140 00:07:24,585 --> 00:07:27,765 then Bilan directly, and then we're still doing that, but we've also. 141 00:07:28,695 --> 00:07:36,914 That's really interesting person who was just got millions of pounds, apparently burning a hole in his pocket and he wants to kind of buy land and hold onto it. 142 00:07:37,125 --> 00:07:38,565 And then he needs someone to reforest it. 143 00:07:38,565 --> 00:07:44,114 So it's kind of more like a partnership, um, where we'll lease the land from, I dunno, a pound a year or something, and we'll, 144 00:07:44,145 --> 00:07:46,575 we'll, we'll manage the land back to back to being a forest. 145 00:07:46,875 --> 00:07:51,734 And so we've just found 27 acres for him and the offer was accepted and. 146 00:07:53,015 --> 00:07:56,555 That's only using like 1% of the money. 147 00:07:57,005 --> 00:08:02,885 So there's going to be a lot of land for us to plan, which is why it's all about scaling things up, making things 148 00:08:02,885 --> 00:08:05,105 more efficient, making the project planning more efficient. 149 00:08:05,105 --> 00:08:10,775 I was talking about that last time and, and making sure that the API is solid and does everything that our funding partners need. 150 00:08:10,775 --> 00:08:17,645 So they can pull out all the data and, and, and run their business off of it and not have any bugs and mistakes, because whenever I have to try 151 00:08:17,645 --> 00:08:22,650 it, Figure out what's going wrong with the API or awkward mismatches. 152 00:08:22,650 --> 00:08:29,190 It's like, I'm in a field and I'm trying to send you samples of code and code requests on my phone and this is not going well. 153 00:08:30,219 --> 00:08:35,100 So I have to make sure that thing is like slick and reliable and not taking me away from the actual work at hand. 154 00:08:35,309 --> 00:08:35,669 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 155 00:08:35,669 --> 00:08:36,780 So really that's incredible. 156 00:08:36,780 --> 00:08:42,449 It sounds like you, you have been figuring out how to scale beyond just the fill, which is one of the core problems. 157 00:08:42,449 --> 00:08:43,470 I'm sure that you have there. 158 00:08:44,479 --> 00:08:50,660 Unbelievable for me to imagine that there's, I don't know, sounds like 15, 20, 30,000 trees being planted this year. 159 00:08:50,660 --> 00:08:52,430 And each one of them will also have a glamorous. 160 00:08:53,370 --> 00:08:54,210 Pretty wild, man. 161 00:08:54,390 --> 00:08:55,439 That's very cool. 162 00:08:55,770 --> 00:08:56,010 Phil Sturgeon: Yeah. 163 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,750 Luckily we have a lot of different types of projects where some of them, we handle the entire thing. 164 00:09:00,750 --> 00:09:05,280 And sometimes the project has already been planned by a big group, like say the Woodland trust. 165 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,410 And they're just looking for someone to do the actual planting. 166 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:13,680 And so with those sorts of projects, luckily we can just shove them in and take like a few establishing Schultz, but we don't have to take a photograph of. 167 00:09:14,605 --> 00:09:23,005 But yeah, there, there are some of those projects where like we're planting 4,000 trees near, uh, soon my neck of the woods and yep. 168 00:09:23,065 --> 00:09:29,665 I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to go out and photograph 4,000 trees and put that one's a bird cherry that one's a Rowan. 169 00:09:29,815 --> 00:09:35,545 That one's a, ah, you're about to get like three pound for everyone. 170 00:09:35,755 --> 00:09:36,085 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 171 00:09:36,205 --> 00:09:36,475 Yeah. 172 00:09:36,475 --> 00:09:37,225 That's really cool. 173 00:09:37,235 --> 00:09:41,665 You're also about to have the least interesting Instagram feed I've ever seen, but you know, I'm into it. 174 00:09:41,665 --> 00:09:42,085 That's great. 175 00:09:43,465 --> 00:09:44,275 Phil Sturgeon: Yeah, I should hook it up. 176 00:09:44,275 --> 00:09:48,175 So every single one just goes straight out and people are like, we don't care about this at all. 177 00:09:48,175 --> 00:09:49,225 They all look the same. 178 00:09:49,225 --> 00:09:50,245 They're all two years old. 179 00:09:50,245 --> 00:09:51,145 It's not interesting. 180 00:09:51,475 --> 00:09:51,835 Mike Bifulco: It's all right. 181 00:09:51,865 --> 00:09:52,405 That's all right. 182 00:09:52,645 --> 00:09:53,605 Yeah, really cool, man. 183 00:09:53,605 --> 00:09:59,185 So th the work that you've been doing to support that kind of the infrastructure behind this stuff has resulted in some learnings and 184 00:09:59,185 --> 00:10:04,285 some articles that we've published recently on the site for API, as you won't hate, you want to tell a little, tell us a little bit about that. 185 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:10,200 Phil Sturgeon: So Matt did a great job of putting the APA together in a bit of a rush. 186 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:19,500 We were kind of given, we were given an API hosted by another planting partner of, at one of our funding partners. 187 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:22,110 There's a company called future forest company. 188 00:10:22,110 --> 00:10:23,160 They do amazing things. 189 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:23,640 They do. 190 00:10:24,555 --> 00:10:26,985 Slightly differently, but a good group of people. 191 00:10:27,055 --> 00:10:33,015 And we basically had to kind of copy their API so that they could be integrated into one of our funding partners really easily. 192 00:10:33,285 --> 00:10:36,495 So we didn't really bother designing the API as such. 193 00:10:36,495 --> 00:10:38,175 We just kind of went, make it look like. 194 00:10:39,195 --> 00:10:42,705 And that seemed like a reasonable reason to not design it. 195 00:10:43,065 --> 00:10:49,005 It's one of those things, like the mechanics car is always broken or like the shoemaker's son never has shoes or whatever. 196 00:10:49,005 --> 00:10:54,345 There's a million of those phrases around, like, I know chefs that just microwave all of their dinners when they get home from work. 197 00:10:54,345 --> 00:10:58,305 It's always that thing of like, you think you're an expert in it, so you just kind of don't bother. 198 00:10:58,635 --> 00:11:01,905 And I thought I know all about APA design first. 199 00:11:01,905 --> 00:11:02,385 I know enough. 200 00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:05,040 To to know when I should use it. 201 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:11,370 And when I shouldn't and I totally messed up, they're not having open API from the start. 202 00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:14,220 It just meant that we didn't have any API documentation. 203 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:20,160 When we had a second funding partner, they want it to get on board and I'm like, oh, let me send you some awkward curl examples. 204 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,470 And if you have questions, just figure it out, I guess. 205 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:27,210 And that led to a bunch of integration issues and we had no way to do contract testing. 206 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:28,920 There were just no tests at all. 207 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:31,440 So we made a bunch of changes to improve before. 208 00:11:32,205 --> 00:11:36,705 Because it was built to handle like hundreds of trees and then we've got tens of thousands of trees. 209 00:11:37,305 --> 00:11:42,945 So yeah, things kind of blow up in our face in a bunch of different ways from just having their docs, having no contract testing 210 00:11:43,215 --> 00:11:47,505 and not being able to do design first for new functionality. 211 00:11:47,525 --> 00:11:50,865 So if he wants to add a new end point, we've kind of got, I have this like weird. 212 00:11:52,050 --> 00:11:56,400 You know, we started a new open API from scratch and it just had the one end point in it with nothing else. 213 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:57,810 So it was kind of useless. 214 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,340 Couldn't use it for mocking or anything else. 215 00:11:59,340 --> 00:12:01,770 So, um, I really wish I stuck to my own advice. 216 00:12:01,830 --> 00:12:05,940 I've been talking about how important EPA designed first for months, and then I just don't do it. 217 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:09,840 It's immediately justified everything I've been saying for years. 218 00:12:10,110 --> 00:12:10,380 Yeah. 219 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,820 Mike Bifulco: I think we can chalk it up to a good reminder that, uh, it's helpful to put yourself in the right 220 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:18,090 shoes from time to time to reinvigorate that context. 221 00:12:18,844 --> 00:12:23,104 I, I tend to live more on the visual design side of things in, in sort of past lives. 222 00:12:23,104 --> 00:12:29,735 And that's something that a lot of designers will say, like, you really need to go in and do sketches and put together wire 223 00:12:29,735 --> 00:12:31,685 frames and all these other things before you start building. 224 00:12:31,685 --> 00:12:33,905 And every single designer I know with the website. 225 00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:40,079 Splash some CSS on to their code editor and started making a mess of that way first. 226 00:12:40,079 --> 00:12:42,569 So, uh, I'm also definitely guilty of that. 227 00:12:42,569 --> 00:12:45,390 It's tempting to go in and do it the wrong way first. 228 00:12:45,449 --> 00:12:51,060 Um, and the quote that I always bandy about from a friend and a mentor is from, I think it's our Franklin. 229 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:59,430 That's essentially like a, as an architect, your most valuable tools are the pencil at the drawing board and a sledgehammer on the construction site. 230 00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:01,800 And it's sorta like, guess which one of those is cheaper? 231 00:13:01,830 --> 00:13:06,720 You know, it's definitely usually a better idea to spend some time with a piece of paper or, you know, your design system, 232 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,200 writing things down, uh, ahead of time or you can go and build it. 233 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:16,620 And then when your, your project goes from a hundred trees to a thousand trees, to 10,000, you're going to be sledgehammering your app into 234 00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:19,560 shape and, uh, starting from scratch and wasting a bunch of time. 235 00:13:20,435 --> 00:13:21,045 Yeah. 236 00:13:21,315 --> 00:13:27,765 Phil Sturgeon: I mean, there were, there was, there was so many things that like, you know, not all Matt's fault, uh, it really, really hard to spot, 237 00:13:27,765 --> 00:13:36,315 but they were little things where the, we were copying was a numeric string and, uh, instead of, uh, integer or whatever, and PHP had opinions and just 238 00:13:36,315 --> 00:13:41,835 did it one way or the other, and they're, they're really small, hard to spot things, but I can cause you know, a bunch of errors on the other side. 239 00:13:41,835 --> 00:13:43,185 So yeah, I think I'm. 240 00:13:44,270 --> 00:13:45,920 I'm just never making that mistake again. 241 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,960 I'm always going to, if I ever need someone to make an API for me, I'm always going to say right. 242 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,670 Here's the open API spec. 243 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:59,270 When you build it, implement contract testing with the spec and like make sure it passes. 244 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:01,400 Past this open API. 245 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:08,300 Like it, it doesn't work the way I want it to, so you don't get paid until you fix it, like make that pass. 246 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:09,440 And then the contract is done. 247 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,070 The job is done. 248 00:14:10,430 --> 00:14:14,630 Mike Bifulco: We'll say I've definitely been on the other side of fill requests for software in the past. 249 00:14:14,630 --> 00:14:19,490 And usually it starts with a cheeky, like, Hey, I've got a quick idea for something that's going to be really easy to go and build it. 250 00:14:20,035 --> 00:14:27,535 And really like, you're just polishing the tip of the iceberg and introducing it to me in a way that sounds like it'll be a quick coffee break project. 251 00:14:27,564 --> 00:14:29,724 Uh, and they, they get big pretty fast. 252 00:14:29,724 --> 00:14:31,255 So we've all been victim to this. 253 00:14:31,255 --> 00:14:35,125 I think, you know, Matt and I are no strangers to these sizes of problems. 254 00:14:35,125 --> 00:14:38,155 And sometimes you just do what you can with the time you've got, for sure. 255 00:14:38,224 --> 00:14:38,755 Phil Sturgeon: Yeah. 256 00:14:38,995 --> 00:14:42,115 The, um, uh, I need to change. 257 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:50,640 How I do business completely from everything is messed up because it's always, it's always like the quickest laziest, crappiest version of everything. 258 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:57,090 Like I'm usually zipping about doing a million things and then like an idea pops into my head and it's maybe it's like three pints 259 00:14:57,090 --> 00:14:59,640 in, but I'm just like, oh yeah, we totally need to do this thing. 260 00:14:59,790 --> 00:15:01,260 Hey Mike, can you do this thing? 261 00:15:01,260 --> 00:15:05,940 And I just fire over a DM and you're like, I guess, and then you do what seems sensible. 262 00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:08,640 And it wasn't exactly what I imagined based on 10 words. 263 00:15:08,910 --> 00:15:09,270 And then. 264 00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:18,280 You messed it up, maybe to spend again, that's like the benefit of the, kind of the open API thing, or just generally writing down a bloody project. 265 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,900 Brief both. 266 00:15:19,930 --> 00:15:25,210 If it's an API, like the more time you can spend planning the thing, the less time you spend on doing the thing. 267 00:15:25,210 --> 00:15:30,100 Cause if I just say 10 words at you and you take a swing at it, it's not going to be exactly what I meant. 268 00:15:30,130 --> 00:15:30,610 Is it for 269 00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:30,880 Mike Bifulco: sure? 270 00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:31,370 Yeah. 271 00:15:31,370 --> 00:15:31,580 Yeah. 272 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:38,430 Uh, a thoughtful proposal is, is the hard part of the job on some level when you're doing planning and sort of the leadership side of. 273 00:15:39,020 --> 00:15:43,160 And by the way, I should say that wasn't meant to be a personal critique or attack or anything like that. 274 00:15:43,370 --> 00:15:44,030 We've all done it. 275 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:46,790 Phil Sturgeon: Um, well, uh, I'm well aware. 276 00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:49,490 It's just kind of why I had to quit the last job. 277 00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:49,700 Right. 278 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:57,440 It was like I'm doing a full-time job and the charity and trying to like for a while, like get Dutch residency and start this software consulting business. 279 00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:01,970 And, and, and then like, people were like, Hey, come and do this, uh, PHB meet up. 280 00:16:01,970 --> 00:16:02,930 And then there's a podcast. 281 00:16:02,930 --> 00:16:05,530 And then, ah, Oh, fuck it. 282 00:16:07,390 --> 00:16:12,490 But, um, yeah, thankfully, hopefully as I get more time, I can, I can put more effort into doing things properly. 283 00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:18,240 Or I'll just keep taking on more tree planting projects and keep rushing around doing them all badly. 284 00:16:18,270 --> 00:16:18,689 We'll see. 285 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:19,110 Yeah. 286 00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:25,020 Mike Bifulco: Well, Hey, part of the reason we have the, the site and the podcast is to scale your wisdom and the experiences that we all have. 287 00:16:25,020 --> 00:16:30,030 And the thing I haven't really said in public is that part of the reason we're also recording your voice over and over, is that just 288 00:16:30,030 --> 00:16:35,610 so that we can take all the words you've written and throw them through machine learning and deep, fake Phil wisdom from here forward. 289 00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:41,250 So you can go play in the trees and we'll just set up a fill, but to yell at people on the internet when we need it. 290 00:16:42,165 --> 00:16:42,915 Phil Sturgeon: Sounds good. 291 00:16:43,905 --> 00:16:49,064 Well, speaking of getting machines to do our bidding, one of the things, one of the two articles we put up 292 00:16:49,125 --> 00:16:52,994 recently was about using, um, Akita, a really helpful tool. 293 00:16:53,265 --> 00:17:01,185 Uh, it's this, the tool I use to get me out of the hole where like, okay, we have API, we need open API so that we can do a bunch of useful things. 294 00:17:01,185 --> 00:17:02,525 Docs, mocks, contract testing. 295 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:11,630 But I am not going to sit down there and go to every end point and go, oh, there's a property called, you know, Fu and it looks like a string and oh, you 296 00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:15,319 know, format equals date and just click a thousand buttons or type a thousand. 297 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:15,950 Mine's a Yammer. 298 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:17,240 That just sounds like death. 299 00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:18,859 And no one got time for that. 300 00:17:18,859 --> 00:17:24,859 So, uh, yeah, we did not call called creating open API from HTTP traffic. 301 00:17:25,310 --> 00:17:28,190 And it would like show you how it works, but super handy. 302 00:17:28,310 --> 00:17:29,290 I knew there were tools out there that. 303 00:17:29,940 --> 00:17:37,710 And I'd kind of like played with them a little bit a year ago and they were all still, you know, kind of, kind of getting really good now. 304 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:41,550 And there's another one called optic, which people recommend. 305 00:17:41,550 --> 00:17:44,129 I played around with some Beyers that were a little tricky. 306 00:17:44,955 --> 00:17:51,045 But, uh, I've heard, that's made a lot of progress too, so Akita or optic can help you out, but it's amazing to just 307 00:17:51,045 --> 00:17:58,365 say, Hey, look, maybe was over there, poke a few end points with your HTP client of choice, co postmen, whatever insomnia. 308 00:17:58,695 --> 00:18:00,165 And then it just goes right. 309 00:18:00,225 --> 00:18:03,135 You've got these endpoints, these properties, these mindsets. 310 00:18:04,439 --> 00:18:05,429 Does your rep an API. 311 00:18:05,730 --> 00:18:06,270 Yeah. 312 00:18:06,270 --> 00:18:06,720 And you're done. 313 00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:07,350 Yeah. 314 00:18:07,379 --> 00:18:07,560 That's 315 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:08,189 Mike Bifulco: pretty amazing. 316 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:09,990 It's definitely hacker friendly. 317 00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:16,679 And I mean, hacker and maybe the friend, well, the, the nicer sense of the word, not like I'm going to go steal your bank account necessarily, 318 00:18:16,679 --> 00:18:22,110 but like, if you want to figure out how something is built or get some introspection until the way that someone else has designed an API. 319 00:18:23,115 --> 00:18:26,595 Like, it can be a useful exercise to go in and dive in and use that kind of thing. 320 00:18:26,865 --> 00:18:32,355 Even if you're not going, and re-engineering an API or putting design docs and testing together around something that you're 321 00:18:32,355 --> 00:18:38,385 already using, like kind of interesting to see the way that things are organized, uh, from, you know, soup to nuts. 322 00:18:38,625 --> 00:18:44,145 It's, it's one of those things that's really easy to do with some of the other things we work with, but like, yeah, these, these tools are really. 323 00:18:44,905 --> 00:18:52,014 Coming into shape lately and definitely hitting a stage where it's like, oh, you can go and do some really meaningful, interesting Packery with this stuff 324 00:18:52,014 --> 00:18:56,274 and put together a useful prototype based on an API that you know, exists. 325 00:18:56,784 --> 00:18:56,935 Phil Sturgeon: Yeah. 326 00:18:56,965 --> 00:18:57,804 Yeah, for sure. 327 00:18:57,834 --> 00:19:00,594 And I just, I can think about how it would have helped me in a lot of things. 328 00:19:01,650 --> 00:19:07,020 Projects in the past, like when I was at, um, giant coworking company that I need to stop naming when I'm complaining about 329 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:11,400 them, I was constantly trying to get people to write open API. 330 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,040 You know, we had a few people that were like, yeah, I'm going to make open API. 331 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,170 I want dogs and mocks and SDK generations and all that. 332 00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:16,290 Good. 333 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,200 And I brought people with pizza that helped, but it was still quite a lot of reach-out effort. 334 00:19:21,230 --> 00:19:28,480 And then it was like trying to get people to slight that work into that sprints when they have completely unmanageable deadlines already and, and 335 00:19:28,550 --> 00:19:31,580 constant rewrites, because they never wrote any docs in the first place. 336 00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:32,420 So they don't know how it works. 337 00:19:32,450 --> 00:19:34,040 So they're too busy doing three, right. 338 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,490 To write the docs, which means they'd probably have to do another rewrite in the future. 339 00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:41,660 Ah, so I was trying to get people out of that cycle and I could just imagine. 340 00:19:42,375 --> 00:19:47,145 Dropping Akita or something similar optic, some sort of traffic sniffing proxy. 341 00:19:47,325 --> 00:19:52,725 I can just imagine dropping that into the end to end test suite where we've got, you know, multiple APIs or talking to each 342 00:19:52,725 --> 00:19:59,325 other, and then all of that traffic is being recorded and you can then convert that into open API and awesomely for the. 343 00:20:00,074 --> 00:20:03,165 Comfort for the API is and teams that did have open API. 344 00:20:03,405 --> 00:20:07,935 We were dropping that into the end to end test suite with a validation proxy. 345 00:20:07,965 --> 00:20:12,524 So if you suddenly made a change that broke your open API, it would say error error. 346 00:20:12,794 --> 00:20:16,725 So you could kind of use the end-to-end test suite to create the open API if you don't have it. 347 00:20:16,935 --> 00:20:23,800 And then once you do that, You can use it for validation testing and you wouldn't have to say, please, please, please, can you sit 348 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,220 down and type out every single property in every single thing? 349 00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:28,840 Cause again, humans will get that wrong. 350 00:20:29,170 --> 00:20:31,690 So yeah, it's a really useful tool and I'm glad that I got to play with it. 351 00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:39,880 Cause I think a lot more people can use that to catch up because so, so many people I know don't I've done the poll a few times. 352 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:39,940 Yeah. 353 00:20:40,725 --> 00:20:47,985 Are you code first design first, uh, switching from code first to design first, or like awkward combination. 354 00:20:48,165 --> 00:20:52,095 And most people are awkward combination, um, or switching. 355 00:20:52,455 --> 00:20:56,865 So yeah, using those tools, you can kind of play, catch up, get your open API and move on from there. 356 00:20:56,925 --> 00:20:58,004 Design first, all the things. 357 00:20:58,830 --> 00:20:59,460 Yeah, I think 358 00:20:59,460 --> 00:21:04,500 Mike Bifulco: the reality is there's very few companies that any of us get to work with on any level that are like starting from 359 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,410 scratch and getting to play with things from the ideal scenario. 360 00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:15,390 And especially if you've got something that's, I don't know, 10, 15 years old, like you're working your way back towards compliance, uh, is a, is a mega chore. 361 00:21:15,390 --> 00:21:24,390 And some of those tasks that are sitting down and staring at Yamhill, or, you know, HTTP responses, sound torturous for experienced people and our problems. 362 00:21:25,155 --> 00:21:30,585 A little too important to give to someone who's like in an internship or data entry role or whatever, for a variety of reasons. 363 00:21:30,585 --> 00:21:35,655 And, and putting tooling in the middle, I guess, is sort of the obvious engineer's response there is to figure 364 00:21:35,655 --> 00:21:37,335 out some way to automate it in a way that's rolling. 365 00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:43,030 Phil Sturgeon: I've definitely seen some engineers kind of saying, well, we don't need to ever make an open API 366 00:21:43,030 --> 00:21:45,400 because we can always just produce them automatically. 367 00:21:45,610 --> 00:21:48,460 And that's taking the point too far a little bit. 368 00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:54,310 Like, I, I think some optic definitely seems to kind of be portraying that as like, you don't need to spend time designing 369 00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:56,560 it because you could just, you know, make it automatically. 370 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:56,820 And I. 371 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,370 No, if that's still their messaging or, or maybe it never was. 372 00:22:02,730 --> 00:22:12,060 But I, I worry about that sort of concept because what I did with Akita was use it to get a starting point that's pretty accurate and then tweak it from there. 373 00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:17,220 And there were things missing and there was like, the human touch was missing. 374 00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:19,710 It was just what you can sniff and control. 375 00:22:20,465 --> 00:22:28,925 And there were, I think there are a few examples in there, but I want to put some more targeted examples and I had to remove a few sensitive 376 00:22:29,045 --> 00:22:35,575 UIDs cause you know, with, with certain new ideas, the way it's currently built, if you have the UID of a funding partner, you can just see your. 377 00:22:36,335 --> 00:22:38,435 Orders and save all of their trees and not have to pay for them. 378 00:22:39,845 --> 00:22:42,095 So I don't want to put that ID in the docks. 379 00:22:42,305 --> 00:22:48,245 And so I think anything that you get from one of these tools that kind of looks at what's going on and takes the best 380 00:22:48,245 --> 00:22:50,765 educated, guess it can, it's never going to be perfect. 381 00:22:50,855 --> 00:22:58,505 It's never going to be a publishable document that you would be proud to make, you know, your API reference documentation of choice for end users. 382 00:22:58,805 --> 00:23:03,575 Uh, it's just like a useful artifact of this getting pretty close. 383 00:23:03,635 --> 00:23:04,795 It's like a quick. 384 00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:06,870 More than anything else, you know? 385 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,020 And, uh, yeah, I've seen some engineers go well, great. 386 00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:14,189 I don't have to do the time-consuming thing cause I'll just do the auto automated bad thing. 387 00:23:14,610 --> 00:23:15,840 And that just lazy. 388 00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:17,220 It's easy to 389 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:25,080 Mike Bifulco: maybe, um, interpret in bad faith, I suppose, or like in, in a way that makes life easier, but not necessarily in the long run beneficial. 390 00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:25,709 So. 391 00:23:27,205 --> 00:23:29,395 I wanted to mention one of the things I've been thinking about lately. 392 00:23:29,395 --> 00:23:36,085 So I think you, well, I'd imagine you're probably much more disconnected from the internet and Twitter and things than I am these days, as a 393 00:23:36,085 --> 00:23:43,764 result of you mostly literally getting your hands dirty, but, uh, you and I tend to run in slightly different, like developer circles online. 394 00:23:44,215 --> 00:23:44,905 And one of the things I've. 395 00:23:45,735 --> 00:23:52,034 Noticing a lot lately is a lot of, sort of like call it indie web sort of developers and people building their own 396 00:23:52,034 --> 00:23:54,495 products and whatnot who are building on top of frameworks. 397 00:23:54,495 --> 00:24:03,645 Like, uh, she's I don't know, Jekyll and, um, view and remix is one of the newer ones and next JS and all these other things that have really 398 00:24:03,645 --> 00:24:12,254 interesting integrations for sort of natively supporting automatically generated or serverless functions within a sort of web application context. 399 00:24:13,260 --> 00:24:17,130 You could basically use a command line app to generate the framework for a web app. 400 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:23,280 And then by creating a file in a specific place, it gets deployed to, uh, an Amazon serverless app or, you 401 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,160 know, whatever other hosting providers who do magic. 402 00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:27,480 I love it pretty cool. 403 00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:28,230 And it's all done. 404 00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:31,560 Like it hooks into CII really nicely and does lots of good things with that. 405 00:24:31,860 --> 00:24:33,390 In addition to giving sort of the. 406 00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:42,060 In most cases, JavaScript, granted hooks into the API lifecycle or the HTTP verbs and things like that, that you would want for an API. 407 00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:45,810 There is a lot of cool stuff you can do with that. 408 00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:48,360 And you can kind of imagine that being in the middle layer for a lot of things. 409 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:54,420 In fact, actually the, the, our new API is you won't hate site uses some of this stuff for like our contact form, where we sort of use 410 00:24:54,420 --> 00:24:57,540 that as air to fire things off to places to automate our lives. 411 00:24:57,540 --> 00:24:58,290 On the other end, when we. 412 00:24:59,550 --> 00:25:08,820 But what's interesting to me there is that there's almost no discussion around how to keep track of those things and how to make sure that you are, you know, 413 00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:12,960 not using, uh, your, uh, delete verb for a post and those kinds of things. 414 00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:18,120 And in those communities in particular, there is precious little education to begin with. 415 00:25:18,975 --> 00:25:24,345 You know, why you would make these kinds of choices and, and why it's important to consider like the shape of things coming into 416 00:25:24,345 --> 00:25:32,085 your API or where they're coming from and validating and doing things like recaptures and honeypots and all those sorts of things. 417 00:25:32,385 --> 00:25:40,155 I bring all this up mostly to say that, like, I think that's an interesting avenue for maybe me to head down over the coming months in terms of 418 00:25:40,635 --> 00:25:43,215 considering types of things that we can help those sorts of developers. 419 00:25:44,115 --> 00:25:51,645 Because I think it's largely unknown to this, to lots of folks in this audience, one, the structure of, of these sorts of APIs, even 420 00:25:51,645 --> 00:25:57,735 if it's a very basic crud thing for one use case, like a lot of it seems to be just like smash this code into place and it'll work. 421 00:25:57,735 --> 00:25:58,215 Trust me. 422 00:25:58,725 --> 00:26:00,195 Like I know because of the axles. 423 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,080 Yeah. 424 00:26:02,110 --> 00:26:09,430 And the other side of it is too, like the, the debug tooling to be able to go and build these things like using postman, insomnia, all those things to go 425 00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:12,910 and actually fire off the HTTP requests to test just the serverless function. 426 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,950 I never see those talked about when people are building these serverless things on these frames. 427 00:26:18,825 --> 00:26:26,655 So I think there's very likely a, um, a hole in documentation, a hole in content produced there a whole and just discussion around 428 00:26:26,685 --> 00:26:29,505 like, here's, what's actually going on behind the scenes here. 429 00:26:29,655 --> 00:26:31,095 Here's how you can think about it. 430 00:26:31,095 --> 00:26:36,555 And here's how you can build and debug it as a developer, building these things out, whether you're creating a contact form or completing 431 00:26:36,555 --> 00:26:42,945 a purchase, or I don't know, you name it, creating an account for your, you know, visitors to your app or whatever the case may be. 432 00:26:43,785 --> 00:26:52,605 It's an interesting thing where we have a full stack to our way into what could be a potentially like security averse kind of mindset. 433 00:26:53,805 --> 00:26:54,165 Yeah. 434 00:26:54,195 --> 00:26:58,875 I I'm I'm, I'm not, uh, I won't say I'm preoccupied about it, but I'm definitely fascinated by the way, all that stuff is. 435 00:27:01,495 --> 00:27:03,294 Phil Sturgeon: Yeah, that, that sounds really interesting. 436 00:27:03,294 --> 00:27:14,695 I, I keep seeing fantastic things coming along and, and generally I'm only introduced to new web front end kind of frameworks when you 437 00:27:14,695 --> 00:27:18,834 switch the website to them and you're like this cool new tool came out. 438 00:27:18,834 --> 00:27:19,645 It does this, this and this. 439 00:27:19,645 --> 00:27:20,365 And I'm like, all right. 440 00:27:20,365 --> 00:27:24,145 And you know, you, you like put, uh, moved us from wherever it was. 441 00:27:24,175 --> 00:27:25,145 Uh, yeah. 442 00:27:27,375 --> 00:27:27,774 Yeah. 443 00:27:27,895 --> 00:27:28,135 That was. 444 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,909 Uh, there was middleman for awhile and then Gatsby. 445 00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:38,270 And then, um, we were on, uh, I don't even know, but we switched to Netlify and then I was like, oh, damn, this is really good. 446 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,780 And then versa last, even better that makes Netlify look like rubbish. 447 00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:47,540 Like there are all these kinds of new changes come along and make things faster and easier and better. 448 00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:49,699 And so I have been really impressed with a lot of that end. 449 00:27:50,754 --> 00:27:53,665 But like the specific troubles you're describing, it's just kind of makes me laugh. 450 00:27:54,024 --> 00:27:59,725 I feel like we went from a period where, you know, service lead pages were very static. 451 00:27:59,725 --> 00:28:05,695 It's like, I'm going to figure out what HTML to spit out and then you'll do a form and I'll think about it and spouse and HTML. 452 00:28:05,695 --> 00:28:06,845 And that was very static and that. 453 00:28:07,505 --> 00:28:08,705 Kind of web one, right. 454 00:28:09,005 --> 00:28:11,795 Or maybe when you got to forums, it was like kind of getting into web two. 455 00:28:12,065 --> 00:28:14,105 And we're not just talking about three today that can get in the bent. 456 00:28:14,825 --> 00:28:18,755 There was this kind of period in, in kind of web to where it was like more rich and interactive. 457 00:28:18,755 --> 00:28:21,095 And, and we started to do a lot more Ajax functions. 458 00:28:21,245 --> 00:28:25,015 So you had a site that felt generally quite static being loaded by the server. 459 00:28:25,975 --> 00:28:30,985 And then you had these little random Ajax functions, these little random end points that would be you just called whatever. 460 00:28:31,014 --> 00:28:37,794 And maybe have like an Ajax controller and group them under that like set like slash Ajax slash whatever random logic you wanted. 461 00:28:38,125 --> 00:28:41,034 And they were all just like floaty, totally disparate. 462 00:28:41,034 --> 00:28:43,435 No one was really meant to use them, although they totally could. 463 00:28:43,824 --> 00:28:51,145 And it was just kind of a, a kind of a floating function useful for the front end. 464 00:28:51,445 --> 00:28:52,855 Um, and then we went through this period of. 465 00:28:53,669 --> 00:29:00,750 Glorifying the API for many good reasons, but all of a sudden it became about like I'm making an API for my 466 00:29:00,750 --> 00:29:04,320 website and this API will be called like API dot, whatever. 467 00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:08,639 And, and it should all be consistent and lovely and, and follow all these rules. 468 00:29:08,639 --> 00:29:11,399 I don't know what rules, what, what, what can we do to make it good Russ dish? 469 00:29:11,429 --> 00:29:11,820 Sure. 470 00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:13,199 Those are the rules that we will follow. 471 00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:15,540 And everyone kind of focused on that. 472 00:29:15,540 --> 00:29:20,790 And the idea of these floaty disparate age actually functions has just kind of fell away. 473 00:29:21,270 --> 00:29:29,610 Um, but it sounds like we're moving back towards that very quickly without taking any of the lessons learned from either of those two iterations, because 474 00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:35,910 there are reasons why you do things like use the correct, um, HTP method, right. 475 00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:40,830 Gave a talk ages ago, like the original API pain points talk I used to do back in the day. 476 00:29:40,830 --> 00:29:48,899 It sounds like a lot of that stuff might be good content for them because there's things like, um, you know, Uh, some company, I think it was Rackspace. 477 00:29:49,139 --> 00:29:53,970 They had an API that you would delete action was on a get method. 478 00:29:54,450 --> 00:30:01,889 And so Google found the XML, um, the crawler, the XML, uh, collection, and started calling all these endpoints and just deleting 479 00:30:01,889 --> 00:30:04,919 people's servers, just bang, bang, bang, bang, just deleting them. 480 00:30:05,810 --> 00:30:07,530 Google was just sitting there going right. 481 00:30:07,530 --> 00:30:09,690 It's like Google sitting there going, I wonder what's on this link. 482 00:30:09,780 --> 00:30:10,409 Oh, nothing. 483 00:30:10,409 --> 00:30:10,830 That's weird. 484 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:11,460 I wonder why. 485 00:30:12,074 --> 00:30:12,794 Oh, nothing. 486 00:30:12,855 --> 00:30:13,215 That's all right. 487 00:30:13,554 --> 00:30:13,725 Right. 488 00:30:13,725 --> 00:30:15,824 So these things matter, the conventions matter. 489 00:30:15,824 --> 00:30:17,504 You don't know why they matter. 490 00:30:17,564 --> 00:30:19,965 So you think they don't matter, but they bloody well do. 491 00:30:20,235 --> 00:30:26,355 And so if we're kind of getting a bunch of people who are generally not that used to all of the horror stories that I've 492 00:30:26,355 --> 00:30:28,514 been trying to tell for years and other people have been going on. 493 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:35,050 And they just think, oh, it's just some ivory tower nonsense and preferences and opinions and whatever. 494 00:30:35,050 --> 00:30:37,300 They're going to build a bunch of shit and repeat all the same mistakes. 495 00:30:37,570 --> 00:30:37,900 Yeah. 496 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:38,440 Everything 497 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,420 Mike Bifulco: old is indeed new again in this case. 498 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,430 Uh, and it's funny because it's, a lot of these things are pitched as like, this is just a really fast way. 499 00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:48,940 Like it's fast and you'll get it done and it's deployed on the edge of the network. 500 00:30:48,940 --> 00:30:51,150 So it's performance and it's like, yeah. 501 00:30:51,150 --> 00:30:51,790 Yeah, cool. 502 00:30:51,790 --> 00:30:52,360 Like that. 503 00:30:52,540 --> 00:30:53,050 That's great. 504 00:30:53,050 --> 00:30:55,150 And all, but if I'm giving you the, uh, the nuclear. 505 00:30:56,030 --> 00:30:57,770 Uh, faster and on the edge of the network. 506 00:30:57,770 --> 00:30:58,960 It's not a good thing for me. 507 00:30:58,970 --> 00:31:03,620 You know, I, I need some degree of certainty that the things are being built here. 508 00:31:03,710 --> 00:31:09,050 We've done responsibly, or, you know, in ways that, that won't open up holes in the functionality of the software. 509 00:31:09,050 --> 00:31:10,290 And I think there's very likely. 510 00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:12,870 Quite a few exploits to do with these things. 511 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:20,550 As people like go and copy paste, uh, unwittingly, some code from a very popular tutorial that doesn't happen to consider these things or like is 512 00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:23,790 just reusable and all kinds of places, all the things we've seen before. 513 00:31:23,790 --> 00:31:29,840 And definitely like not, not meaning to point to anyone's anything in particular and say, this is bad, but it's more the, the 514 00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:32,880 rough concept of the thing that, uh, that's the starting point. 515 00:31:34,399 --> 00:31:39,260 Phil Sturgeon: It does just seem like a walk down memory lane a lot, like copying and pasting random insecure 516 00:31:39,260 --> 00:31:41,990 PHP code you found on a tutorial was how I started. 517 00:31:43,370 --> 00:31:45,139 That's the only way I've ever 20 plus years ago. 518 00:31:45,139 --> 00:31:46,520 That's the first thing I was doing. 519 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:46,820 Yeah. 520 00:31:46,820 --> 00:31:48,439 And it's not great. 521 00:31:50,085 --> 00:31:51,195 Yeah, right. 522 00:31:51,195 --> 00:31:56,745 And like you copy and paste a class off of, uh, off of a blog and you'd have to change all of the, um, like all of the quotation 523 00:31:56,745 --> 00:32:03,345 marks accidentally being converted to like, you know, uh, tactics or smart quotes or Kelly, Kelly quotes, Sage that find them replacing. 524 00:32:03,345 --> 00:32:09,165 And now you type like composer install when you get that package, check them to make sure it's not being completely screwed. 525 00:32:09,375 --> 00:32:11,535 But yeah, like let's not, let's not do all that again. 526 00:32:11,565 --> 00:32:12,345 It's not go backwards. 527 00:32:12,825 --> 00:32:13,125 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 528 00:32:13,515 --> 00:32:17,355 Maybe I'll have to sit down and actually put some things into writing here and we can, we can educate the world. 529 00:32:18,255 --> 00:32:21,105 Phil Sturgeon: The good news is my old content is now going to stay relevant for longer. 530 00:32:21,105 --> 00:32:21,705 So thank you for that, 531 00:32:21,885 --> 00:32:22,365 Mike Bifulco: for sure. 532 00:32:22,365 --> 00:32:22,685 Yeah. 533 00:32:22,725 --> 00:32:22,965 Right. 534 00:32:23,235 --> 00:32:26,255 All you've got to do is slap a new title on your old talk and you're back in business, man. 535 00:32:26,275 --> 00:32:26,715 That's great. 536 00:32:27,045 --> 00:32:27,825 Maybe not even a new 537 00:32:28,485 --> 00:32:30,795 Phil Sturgeon: functions, you won't hate exactly. 538 00:32:30,795 --> 00:32:31,305 Exactly. 539 00:32:31,305 --> 00:32:32,505 It's just exactly the same thing. 540 00:32:33,255 --> 00:32:36,715 Mike Bifulco: AWS, you all and hate has a weird ring to it, but I'm kind of into that too. 541 00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:38,430 All right, man. 542 00:32:38,430 --> 00:32:40,050 We'll look, it's been nice catching up. 543 00:32:40,260 --> 00:32:45,450 We are, I should say I'm getting into the cadence of doing this thing on a roughly monthly schedule, although 544 00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:47,700 as the stars aligned for the three of us to get on it. 545 00:32:48,660 --> 00:32:54,090 It's monthly ish, but, um, yeah, we'll we'll um, gosh, I guess I'll catch up with you in a few weeks and we'll, 546 00:32:54,150 --> 00:32:56,250 we'll see where you're, uh, where you're at at that point. 547 00:32:56,580 --> 00:32:56,790 Phil Sturgeon: Yeah. 548 00:32:56,790 --> 00:32:58,920 In a few weeks, I should be nearly done with planting seasons. 549 00:32:58,940 --> 00:32:59,520 Thank God. 550 00:32:59,550 --> 00:33:03,240 So I will be I'm coming at, you live from a beach or something. 551 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:03,690 I don't know. 552 00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:04,290 I need a break. 553 00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:04,860 Mike Bifulco: There we go. 554 00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:05,850 It sounds lovely. 555 00:33:06,270 --> 00:33:08,040 Well, take care of yourself and 556 00:33:10,830 --> 00:33:11,190 Phil Sturgeon: good to see you.