Rob: Hello and welcome back weary travelers, excited listeners, on our
adventure in the subspace with Subspace Radio, a new Star Trek episode is
out there, we need to talk about It
Kevin: Dun daaa!
The strings swell.
It's time for a grand finale, Rob.
Rob: grand grand finale, joining me as always is Kevin Yank, how are you?
Kevin: I am wonderful.
I love it when, uh, when there is new Star Trek that sticks the landing.
Rob: Oh.
My.
God.
Did.
It.
What.
Yes.
The final episode, uh, the 50th episode, the 10th episode of Season
5 of Star Trek Lower Decks, The New Next Generation, written by
Kevin: 50 episodes.
Can we just, can we just take a moment to recognize what has been achieved here?
The original series of Star Trek had 89 episodes, if, if I'm remembering
Rob: Yep.
Kevin: That's, that's, you know, almost twice as many, and each of
those episodes was twice as long as these Lower Decks episodes.
And yet, look how sad I am to see this series go.
Very, very sad, Rob.
Rob: We would barely be hitting the second season of, uh, a show from the
original series or from, uh, the 90s era.
But no, we have gone through five seasons, uh, ups and downs, trials and tribulations
of, uh, the crew of the Cerritos.
And now, sadly, we have to say goodbye with one final threat.
And nobody else can deal with it, despite how many times they say,
Surely you can't get the Enterprise.
Surely the Enterprise, should the Enterprise be doing this?
The Enterprise should be doing this.
This is an Enterprise mission, right?
Kevin: They were so close that they had some.
Yeah, I will say that that it was the weakest moment of this very
strong episode to me, which is to say it wasn't even that weak.
There was a line that I really bought and then they wrecked it
with some other lines that I didn't.
The line that I really bought is that the Enterprise was too far away and call it
fate, call it entanglement or whatever, um, It's up to the Cerritos to do this.
And I was like, great.
Okay.
So that, you know, the, the anomaly that's threatening everyone just happens
to be super close to the Cerritos.
So they're going to be first on the scene and that is oddly convenient, for
plot purposes, but we're going to name it and go, wow, isn't the universe a
mysterious place, how these, these things happen so close to the people involved.
Um, so lovely.
You should have left it there.
But they went a few more steps where they were, they were like.
It's really weird.
We can't explain it.
Um, uh, the Enterprise is definitely on its way, but, but the two Boimler
effect, it cannot be overlooked.
And I was like, that does not make sense.
The, the line, the last line was with the connected Boimlers,
you're our only option.
And I was like, I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.
Rob: I like what they're going for.
It was sent from one Boimler to the next Boimler, and the Boimlers had
to connect, but it wasn't justified enough in any other effect and a hand
waving wave going, oh, it has to be you guys because, uh, Boiler Effect.
Let's use that.
Kevin: They should have quit while they were ahead.
The fact that when they said it's weird, I was like, great, it's weird.
You agree.
It's weird.
We can all move on.
But then they tried to, they tried to explain it a little too much.
Rob: So yeah, we have everything happening here.
We have Boimler coming to terms with the fact that he's been trying to
live his life via another Boimler.
We've got Rutherford falling out of love with the Cerritos.
We've got, uh, we've got our two science officers, you know, trying to find, uh,
you know, are they science best friends?
Are they science besties?
Or are they rivals?
Kevin: Yeah.
Now that they have the shared role, can they actually collaborate?
Rob: Tendi and T'Lyn are finally, you know, uh, challenging each other on
that in their own inimitable fashion.
And, um, Uh, Mariner's still trying to confirm the fact of the demons from
her past, but can she be trusted now?
And her realizing the fact that her mum trusts her.
The amount of time she kept on going, it wasn't me, mum.
It's not me.
I would have done that before.
And she goes, I know, I trust you.
It's not you.
Let's figure this out together.
Um, and just how capable they all are as a, uh, a crew on every
level from, um, from engineering all the way up to the upper decks.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, and you, you said this is a packed episode and it really is.
As soon as like, okay, we have the, we have the galaxy or universe
ending threat of the, the Schrodinger possibility field surrounding the,
the fissure, that for me was plenty.
That plus the character stuff that had to go on in this episode was plenty.
And then we threw the Klingons into the mix.
Rob: Again with the
Kevin: had a previously unseen sister to the two Klingons that
that died earlier this season.
The two antagonists that went up against Ma'ah and Malor,
the brothers that we know.
Um, yes, a Klingon with a, with a crazy dog on her lap, which was amazing.
Um, yeah, her and her little fleet of ships were the wild card thrown
into this episode and there's this log entry where Freeman goes, we're
supposed to be closing a fissure!
And I was like, you're supposed to be closing a fissure!
we don't have time for a whole other plot line in this episode.
But that sense that there was too much to do really kept this, the energy up
and the tension up in what otherwise, I feel, could have been a little bit,
uh, self indulgent as a, as a finale.
Rob: And it did give a resolution to a storyline that we didn't
realize that we needed to see an end for, the, the Klingon brothers.
They were such a, a crucial part of being brought back, you know.
Well, you know, the one character has been brought back three times and
his brother's been brought back two.
Kevin: Yeah I thought they were perfectly happy hauling blood
wine on their little freighter.
But by the end, they've got a little fleet of their own of, of,
uh, top of the line, Birds of Prey.
He got his captaincy back.
Rob: Exactly.
Um, but yeah, for me it was great.
Little moments of recognition.
So when the, uh, the multiverse beam hits one of the Klingon ships, they
automatically turn into Discovery Era Klingons and their ship turns into a
Discovery Era Klingon ship before it is spectacularly smashed and destroyed.
Kevin: Yes.
And, uh, later on, uh, a barge of the dead from Star Trek Voyager.
Rob: Yes!
That's right.
Um
Kevin: And throughout all of this, the comedy is firing on all cylinders.
And to me, they took it up a notch and made it extra knowing.
Like there were, there were lines like, uh, Oh, who knows what's going to happen?
Tune in.
Whoa.
And really felt like the actors talking to us through the characters
here at the end of the episode.
Um, the joke at the start of the corbopples.
No, you made that thing up.
What are you talking about?
Half of all bopples are corbed.
That, that, that stuff also felt, especially knowing like, uh, they,
they earned that here, but, um, I'm glad they kept it to the very end
because it is also just, um, a little disruptive as comedy because it kind
of undermines the reality of the world.
Rob: Um, one of my favorite lines in the whole thing, and it isn't even that clever
or, or interesting or referencing or sort of like, you know, It transcends anything.
It's just, I just loved it as a line.
And it's by the captain.
I know the captain gave me one of my favorite lines about Meemaw, uh,
back a couple of seasons ago, but just when they're about to go in the
grand finale through the, the layers, she goes, all hands brace for weird.
Love it.
Just it.
So.
We've heard it so many times, all hands braced for impact or
whatever, all hands braced for
Kevin: Brace for weird.
Oh, the yeah, they were teetering right on the edge, and again, I'll say like going
over the line, knowing what they were doing and winking at us the whole time.
This this idea that they were able to modify the shields just enough to
protect the crew of the ship, but the hull would be changing around them.
It's like, no, in no other episode of Star Trek, at no other time would I buy that.
here in the finale of Lower Decks, where the point is to have fun with
Star Trek, uh, by stretching it into directions that you normally couldn't get
it away with, um, I went along with it.
Rob: To see all those different versions of the Cerritos.
To see how Shaxs reacts to it when it gets in like a Terran class.
He goes, look at all those guns!
He goes
Kevin: Our weapons are amazing!
Ohhh, weapons are down.
Rob: Um, yeah.
Kevin: It gets turned Sovereign class.
And, um, yeah, our captain has previously, uh, stated that she hates
it when a ship goes in for refit and comes out looking all Sovereign class.
And so when they go Sovereign class, she goes, I guess I'll have to take
Rob: And we had a, yeah, it looked a little bit, uh, Enterprise
D at some point as well.
And they do race away going, what if we just turn it into, like, uh,
you know, uh, a longboat version of a trapped in space, go, uh, we hope
for the best that we don't get that.
Kevin: Yeah.
And, uh, we get to see Rutherford fall back in love with the Cerritos and
realize that it's his implant that's been holding him back the whole time.
Um, the line, Whoa, I've never seen anyone engineer that fast.
Rob: And it goes, Ru-ther-ford!
Ru-ther-ford!
Kevin: Uh, the only thing I'm, I might regret from this episode is that
Tendi doesn't have a whole lot to do.
Rob: Nah, little bits with, with T'Lyn and they're very manga inspired, pressing
Kevin: Yeah, I suppose so.
The, there, yeah, that, this, the arguing in the corridor and Tendi's
the one saying, this is our chance.
We have to figure out how to work together.
And T'Lyn goes, perhaps we should not.
Uh, but yes,
Rob: And then at the end the ships split and then they do the split
screen so it's very manga esque like Voltron or something like
Kevin: At that moment, I I think.
I think the reason I'm so willing to go along with so much of the
nonsense is that it all serves what's going on with our characters.
It's not arbitrary.
It's there as a reflection of what our characters are going through in
their selves and their relationships.
And so, it is justified because of what we get to see from our characters through it.
Rob: Yeah, it's the end of an arc done with a little bit of style.
Um, and there's still a lot of, there's definitely storylines coming to an end
but then beginning the next chapter.
So there's that element of Tendi, because we talked about a little bit before that,
um, previously in the season, we don't get to see that, that romance blossom,
but we definitely see what could happen next, because Rutherford does not, is not
held back by his, uh, emotion inhibitors.
So he is feeling feelings when he gets touched and hugged by
Kevin: He's blushing, T'Lyn names it, and he does not deny it.
And you can see Tendi go, Oh, oh, uh,
Rob: Yeah, um, and that goes to the potential of got, you know,
oh, that wanted Season 5, that wanted Season 5, 6, 7, or 8.
Kevin: The creators have been pretty clear: they had more in the tank.
And if and when the money is there, the, the, the business case for
more Lower Decks is there, they will be there for it as well.
So, uh, yeah, I can't wait to see what, if anything, comes of, uh, Of
this, uh, this seed that was planted here in, at the end of this series.
Rob: Definitely, stuff with, you know, Boimler and Mariner, having, you know,
Boimler making the radical step, which I was so on my feet applauding, he
snaps the, the PADD from the previous, from the previous universe, and just
goes, you know, I've got to live my own life, and I don't want to ruin it
with, uh, you know, our friendship.
Um, and then that tantalizing thing of, they've, at that perfect point
with their friendship, And now they're going to compete against each
other in the, the new regime on the
Kevin: Yeah, I have to admit, I'm a little tired of Star Trek shows messing up the
chain of command as a twist on a season.
Um, yeah, I did not like it when, uh, Jack Crusher was made like
special advisor to the captain and given a chair on the bridge.
And I did not like it when the Cerritos was giving, given
two competing first officers.
They did, they did their best with it.
They said they were provisional and maybe like, it's a, it's a, it's a
trial run to find out which one will actually get to be the first officer.
So at least it's temporary.
Rob: Did they set a precedent or is it being lazy?
Because they did it with the science officers and now they're
doing it with the first officers.
Um, and yeah, when it comes to Jack, you know, uh, Jack Crusher, look.
You can do more than just a three shot, people.
Okay?
You can put him at another station.
Anyway, that's it.
Um, but I adored this episode.
I absolutely loved it.
I thought it was incredibly, uh, strong, powerful, you know.
Are you paying attention, Discovery?
That's how, that's how you end a show.
Kevin: I am once bitten twice shy about, um, conspicuous portals at the
ends of series like the, the portal that the Borg are guarding at the
end of Star Trek Picard season two
Rob: let Picard Season 2 drag you down.
No!
Kevin: I, Uh, everyone looks at that portal and goes, well, that
was indecision and, and we're never going back there, are we?
Um, so this portal I am, I am therefore skeptical about.
There's also the whole multiverse thing of, of, can it be done well?
Like much as I talked about it last episode, that, that the speech from
Lily Sloan made me want to buy into the possibilities of a multiverse concept,
especially in animation, I don't know.
It's a of a risky premise to set up here and to kind of say, well, we want to do
more with this, this, these characters and this story that we've set up.
But if we do do more, it has to be this very risky thing.
That scares me.
Rob: Look, it's, it showed with me, Star Trek is at that point in modern,
uh, in the modern era, kinda like Star Wars, where they're doing so
much, they're producing so much, and not all at the same high standard.
And it's showing in Star Trek as it is in Star Wars.
If you fail in a previous show, that affects the stuff that is really good.
So, last year in Star Wars, we had a series called The Acolyte, which I
thought was incredibly poorly written, an incredibly badly put together show,
bad acting, bad production design, all that type of stuff, and it rated poorly.
At the end of last year, they released a show called Skeleton Crew, which is
a gorgeous homage to, say, Goonies, The Explorers, all those type of
Amblin entertainment, 80s, uh, kids riding bikes, Stranger Things
type feel, and it is incredible.
Beautifully written, beautifully acted, consistent across the board.
However, because people have been burnt by the previous
Kevin: It's not getting the audience it should.
Rob: not getting the audience they should.
And you've explained it here.
A really good explanation of how to justify, we can't close the rift so let's
harness it and make it a portal, because they failed miserably with lazy writing
in Star Trek, in Picard Season 2, it does affect how we look upon it, uh, here.
Um, for me as a Deep Space Nine fan, I'm going, eh, it's just the
wormhole, and Starbase 80 is Terok Nor.
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: So there's potential there.
And as another Star Trek reference, the portal, how it looked all
healed and permanently open, looked very much like the world within
worlds symbolism in Star Wars.
There's a whole other universe that was introduced in Rebels and is brought
in with Ahsoka, where there's this plane of existence where you can go
to any point in time and history.
And so that's quite a contentious issue within Star Wars and it's now
could be quite a contentious issue here in Star Trek this similar portal
to worlds within worlds everywhere.
Kevin: Something that you mentioned there, uh, reminded me we probably
need to do a technobabble check here.
Because I remember in the finale of Discovery, us talking about
the technobabble that justified some of the stuff that was
going on did not quite land.
And we talked about it again in Prodigy, the, the wormholes adding
up to the missing wormhole was like, like shaky on edge of, of incredulity.
There was a lot of, uh, Treknobabble here in these last two episodes about,
you know, the soap bubbles between realities and how opening one fissure
causes another fissure to open.
And at the end here, how turning the energy into a dam or putting
up a dam in order to channel the energy creates a permanent
river in the form of this portal.
Like, how did that all work for you?
Were you going along with it or were you gritting your teeth
Rob: had to, yeah, watching it for the second time, I'm there going, okay, this
is important because it's the Klingon brother solving the issue from what he
knows farming, so I need to understand this because this is a big point.
And so, you know, as always, you know, get a character, say it with
as much conviction as possible, and maybe you'll get away with it.
So, I liked the idea.
It was beyond the point of being sealed.
So what can you do to, to keep it sustained with, um, but
not being able to close it.
So I like that switch, that's a really, it's either, it's not A or
B, you find C, and that's what I love about sci fi working really well,
going, there's only one or the other, no there isn't, there's a C option.
Kevin: I like that too.
I, I, I found it harder to buy into the idea that based on that, um, what
actually happens is Mariner jumps up from her station, vaults the railing
at the back of the bridge, presses four buttons and says, fixed it.
You know, that's kind of hard to buy.
Similarly, um, you know, it is the, the culmination of the character's arc, but
Rutherford sliding under the engineering thing and realigning some isolinear chips,
engineering faster than anyone has ever seen before, gets, gets them to the point
where they're like, they are powered by the multiverse or something like that
is, is the, the line that we're given.
Rob: Yeah, there's, there's like fueling the, the quantum or the, the
multiverse energy that's surrounding them and fueling that into the,
the core to power them through.
Kevin: Yeah.
So there's a, there's a couple of squinty moments for me in this, but
overall it holds up pretty well.
Rob: Yeah, and resolutions, uh, coming thick and fast at the end, so we have
Starbase 80 coming back, we we have, you know, the other dimension, uh, crew
coming back, no voices, just, but seeing
Kevin: voices.
As I said last week, I love the fact that those alternate universe wacky
versions of these characters are now present and known to our main reality.
And so, um, yes, Bashir and Garak will get to reflect on the fact that
they could have, maybe should have been a couple in another lifetime.
Rob: Yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
And, um, lovely, Uh, lovely ending for the captain getting
to be in charge of Starbase 80.
And the admiral.
The admiral coming play
Kevin: yeah, yeah.
I think they, they say that, uh, Kassia Nox will stay in command of the station
itself, but, um, formerly, uh, Captain Freeman will now, uh, be overseeing
the missions into the rift, exciting.
Rob: And the admiral's there to play golf, but he's
Kevin: Oh yes, exactly.
I don't know if there is golf on Starbase 80 and if there is, it might be, uh,
kind of busted up mini golf, I feel like.
Rob: But yes, there was a montage.
What and what do
Kevin: There was a montage of character beats that we got to see things concluding
and going on all around the Cerritos.
Um, the one that stood out to me was O'Connor returned from his ascension.
Um, last seen ascending and, and coming face to face with the
great koala of, of existence.
And, uh, he just kind of, uh, a portal opens in the ceiling and he
falls onto the floor in sickbay and he, uh, he shakily dusts himself off.
So
Rob: with a bit of blood on the forehead?
Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
Um, yeah, lots of little things.
Uh, I really liked, um, Captain Ransom, Captain Ransom, we um, uh, talking
about their first mission, uh, under his command that they have to, they
have to go and meet some talking goo.
And the questions from the science officers are, what viscosity is the goo?
And does it have anything nice to say?
Very good.
I, I am sad we don't get to go on that mission with them.
Rob: And, um, they did the same thing that has now become, and we, and we complained
about this with Picard Season 3,
Kevin: sure
Rob: but, uh, the, uh, I liked that we actually heard
what Ransom's phrase is going
Kevin: go to warp line.
Rob: His go to warp line.
I, I friggin love that.
Especially so for me that flipped everything because it was there
going, oh, they're doing it again.
And so for it to be a gag like that, I went, yes.
And then going, oh man, no, you can't do that.
Please do it as a workout.
Kevin: I'm with it.
I like it.
Engage the core.
Rob: core!
Kevin: Oh my gosh.
Um, yes.
How?
Talk about going out on a high.
The final joke of Lower Decks.
And for me, it is, it probably landed, um, right up there, if not
the best joke in all of Lower Decks.
It went out on a high for me.
To me, it made me wonder, did they think of that line first and go back five
seasons and decide our first officer has to be a fitness junkie, because in five
years time, he's going to say engage the core and it's going to be hilarious.
Rob: going to work on every single level.
So, um, it's, yeah, it's, it's great.
Like we talked about, it's not an end.
Like what they kind of did with Discovery, they tacked it on afterwards,
which you told me about, of going, this is the end of the Discovery to
get to the point where we have, um, that mini episode, which was called,
Kevin: Calypso.
Rob: Calypso.
Yeah, I watched Calypso after your
Kevin: Oh, you did?
Rob: Yeah, and it was good.
It was good.
The actor who played the, um, the, the main human character, I've seen
him in great stuff, he's awesome.
Um, but yes, this is, and even, even Prodigy did a bit of going,
this is the end of this, but we've still got adventures that
could happen for season three.
But I think Lower Decks brought it together beautifully of going, this is
the end of this crew, this adventure.
Now the crew has shifted a bit.
celebrating all layers of the Cerritos crew, which is great with that montage,
but then to get excited about, Ooh, this is what it could happen if we
get a, a, you know, a sixth season.
I think they
Kevin: It really did fill the brief of feeling like these
characters have come a long way.
There's, there's a moment in this episode where, um, Mariner is looking for the
missing Klingon brother, and she runs into Cetacean Ops, where the two, uh, dolphins
are, and Boimler is just standing there with a hose, hosing one of them down.
Rob: Cause earlier on, he said, you've got to get into engineering right now.
And it goes down to, and he's just said, that's, that's the
job he had to race down to do.
It's just to water all of
Kevin: moment where I was like, what is, what is Boimler doing
standing there with a hose?
Surely he has more important things to do.
And it made me realize seeing these lower deckers do what at the start of
this series was what they did all day.
These lower decker jobs, uh, the fact that it seemed unusual and weird is a testament
to how far these characters have come.
Rob: Oh, like, even within the first five minutes, when both Mariner and, uh,
Boimler go to the Captain and go, this is what's happening, and then she went, okay,
let's go to command, and he went, what?
Oh, I thought we'd need to no?
Let's do this straight away.
You've shown in the past what you can do, and we believe, we trust
you now, and they're going, okay.
They, that's great writing, to get to five seasons going,
Kevin: That's it.
Man, that is some good captaining!
Uh, one more of those lines to the camera, I felt
Rob: Yes.
Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
All right.
So, um, yes, we both loved it.
Well done Lower Decks.
The thing that we wanted to call out and talk about this episode
is unreasonable Klingon ships.
So we have, we have our, uh, new Klingon sister, Relga, here, sister of Dorg and
Bargh, uh, from earlier in the season.
Uh, and she, she makes a nuisance of herself.
She won't listen to reason.
She's given the shield modifications and throws them away
because they're useless to her.
Rob: And quite clever in creating a alternate version of the
Admiral to speak through the
Kevin: Clever slash dishonorable.
It was, it was a move befitting a Romulan,
Rob: Mm, ooh, yes, very much so, not very Klingon way.
Kevin: This happens now and then in Star Trek that a Klingon ship is there to be a
nuisance, a, a unre a, a force that won't listen to reason, and, uh, I thought we
could go back and talk about, uh, one or two other times that that has happened.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea.
I'm not sure how well, I think mine fits into the brief a little bit on
the periphery, but, um, I wanted to do it because it was your domain and
I wanted to step into your domain and do a, uh, T do a TNG episode.
Kevin: Wow.
Okay.
I've, I've ultimately settled on a TNG one myself.
I looked at some others.
I have to say for you, my mind went straight to Christopher
Lloyd in Star Trek III.
But then I realized, should I, how would I feel about myself if, if I
made Rob watch Star Trek III again?
Rob: I did, I was thinking Star Trek III.
I was also thinking Star Trek IV, Kang as
Kevin: Oh, I also thought of Star Trek V, Klaa.
These movies are replete with unreasonable Klingons, Rob.
Rob: Pretty much, pretty much, but I went no, no, no, let's go into a
domain that, you know, many Star Trek fans would be unhappy that I have
not explored as deep as I should.
Kevin: All right.
Well, we'll talk about our two TNG episodes.
There was a, there was like a, a runner up for me, which is a run of
episodes in Enterprise season two.
We've talked about the first one before, Judgment, which is where Captain
Archer is in prison on trial and he gets to meet Worf's ancestor as the
advocate for him in the Klingon court.
And this is a whole, uh, episode of retelling an encounter with
an unreasonable Klingon ship they ultimately have to disable.
Um, as a followup to that episode, uh, that was season two, episode 19 season
two episodes, 25 and 26, the end of this season that culminates in the attack on
Earth, uh, by the Xindi that kicks off all of season, uh, three, um, those last two
episodes, the antagonist throughout them is actually that same Klingon captain,
Duras of the, uh, the Duras sisters later in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Uh, Duras is, is trying to get his revenge on, uh, Archer and the
Enterprise, and specifically Archer.
Uh, they, they are continually attacking the Enterprise in between, uh, talk
heavy, plotty scenes about what's going to happen as a result of the attack on Earth.
So that is there, uh, but, uh, I found an even better one to talk
about, but let's go to yours first.
What, what did you find for us, Rob?
Rob: Well I went, uh, Star Trek Next Generation, Season 2,
Episode 8, A Matter of Honor..
Kevin: We have a match.
Rob: And
Kevin: through the screen.
We have a match.
Yes, this is my unreasonable Klingon of choice as well.
Rob: it's only like, uh, I say it's on the periphery because he's only
unreasonable right near the very end.
For the most of it, um, for me this is very proto Klingon in the,
in the new approach to Klingon.
Kevin: Yes.
I agree.
Rob: At this point, I'm going back and I'm going, okay, so this
is 1989, best year in cinema.
Um, so all we have as Klingon experience is, um, this is February,
so Star Trek V hadn't come out yet.
Um, so it's Klingons in Star Trek IV, III, II, I, and the original series.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: So, we
Kevin: And Worf.
We had seen Worf.
Rob: Worf for one season.
Um, so this is our first real endeavour.
We have been on a Klingon ship in Star Trek III and Star Trek IV.
They pretty much, you know, it's the whole movie is them on the Klingon Bird of Prey.
But, um, yeah, this is them doing some really, like, stuff that I
take for granted now because I've seen so much other Star Trek,
especially with Deep Space Nine, which they explore quite a lot of.
But this is going, you know, finding out about the female Klingons,
finding out about their eating habits.
Um,
Kevin: Gagh established in this
Rob: Gagh is established, and of course, it's best eaten, you know, alive.
Um, and honor what it means within the family about, you know, my
father died in honor and the other Klingon go my father was
Kevin: You're right, it's so easy to take that stuff for granted now,
but it was really started here.
And notably, this is pre Ronald D. Moore Klingon stuff.
Like, Ronald D. Moore gets a lot of credit for writing the Klingon opuses
of later seasons, but all of that is based on some stuff that is established
right here in Matter of Honor.
Rob: Right here.
Matter of Honor does it really well.
So, uh, for
Kevin: Burton Armus is the writer.
There are a couple of other story credits on this, but
Rob: quite a few
Kevin: to be the main
Rob: Wonder, uh, Haight and, uh, Gregory Amos.
Kevin: Yeah, um, great work team.
Rob: Um, but yeah, the inside of the Klingon ship looks absolutely
stunning and so much so the, the makeup looks beautiful in that lighting.
So much so later on when they transport the Klingon captain onto the Enterprise,
the makeup is sadly lacking because
Kevin: Yeah, bright, the lights are a little bright on
the bridge of the Enterprise.
Rob: And you go, ooh, they didn't get their color tone right.
No, no.
Kevin: Something happened to your skin in the transporter beam.
Rob: Yes.
So there's quite an ex not a very interesting cold opener.
It kind of just goes, this is some stuff that happened.
We're kind of used to big,
Kevin: It's very procedural, isn't it?
This the, the, the conversation on the phaser range between Picard and Riker
about, uh, the, uh, interspecies exchange program or the officer exchange program
initiated by Starfleet Command, they say, which I think is a brilliant idea.
And I'm surprised, one of the ideas I'm surprised was
not picked up in Lower Decks.
Rob: No, and it's really interesting in these early days of Star Trek
Next Generation going, we've got to do something futuristic and show,
let's do a phaser range, phaser shooting range, and then they uh,
let's do the holodeck, that's far more interesting, and we've got with that.
Um, so Riker, but, it's an exchange program, but only Riker goes.
We don't get a Klingon on the, uh,
Kevin: No, that's right.
It's, yeah, it's, it's not so much an exchange as a, as an envoy.
But we do have a, we do have a crew member join the Enterprise and
wrestle with the procedures of, of the Starfleet ship, uh, to mirror
Riker's experience on the Klingons'.
Rob: That is definitely our B story.
There's some beautiful music choices in there.
Some beautiful music choices.
Whenever that alien appears, he has a different type of music
tone, and it's really beautiful.
Like, it's noted how I go, Oh, right.
That's a big change.
Kevin: we're talking about production value, I will also call out the
LCARS work that when he's working at that science station at the back
of the bridge, it's not just like sound effects and a static image.
We actually get closeups of the user interface changing as he's doing scanning
it is in some ways, uh, more detailed and intricate and fully realized than
any other user interface work we see in Star Trek, The Next Generation.
Rob: Agreed.
It's, it's, it's amazing stuff.
So Riker is gonna go onto, um, this Klingon ship to, so like, see what
it's like and build, 'cause it has a treaty between, uh, Klingon and, uh, the
Klingon Empire and, uh, the Federation.
So they're trying to build this understanding of each other.
Um, and Riker throws himself right into it.
He's eating all the food, he's learning all, he's spending time with Worf to
get all the details about how to survive on a ship and all that type of stuff.
Much to the disgust of, uh.
Uh, of the Doctor, and, and this is, like, this is early, early
Picard, so he's not completely
Kevin: Picard, it's very early Pulaski.
Rob: Very early Pulaski, and Picard is still not going, it's very
hard for Patrick Stewart not to be charming, but Picard is just so.
He gets a little bit at the end, like when he finally gets Will back, and he's quite
relieved, and you see how relieved he is.
Or that moment where Will's the captain of the Klingon ship, you
see that little smirk, you're going,
Kevin: goes, yeah, I'll surrender … Captain.
I enjoyed it.
I liked the cold open.
It is weird energetically, but, um, you get the sense, uh, that Picard
is like sharing the opportunity already knowing that Riker is going
to want it, he doesn't want to come right out and offer it to him.
Um, and, and that little, that little game they get to play together on
the phaser range is fun to too.
Rob: So yeah, we've got Riker then on the ship and he's learning all about
honor and relationships, having to face up against the number two and go, no,
I'm number one, this is what I'm doing.
He had to vow his allegiance to, um, to the Klingon ship.
Um, and just working the minefield that is Klingon honor and, uh, power system.
And then he gets hit on, and uh, even though he is very
ugly, she still will have him.
The Klingon women
Kevin: Ha!
I wrote down most of this scene for notes just because I loved it so much.
If Klingon food is too strong for you, perhaps we could get one of
the females to breastfeed you.
laugh and then she goes, he's not very attractive, but I will have him.
And then they are inquisitive.
They want to know how you would endure.
And Riker asks, endure what?
And he says, them.
And Riker does the slow look and goes, one or both?
Rob: This is 1989, season 2, and he is throwing in a ménage à trois joke.
That that is great stuff in there.
Kevin: Very, very good.
Rob: She licks her lips, she like, licks, licks her teeth, and yep, she, she wants
him bad, even though he is not attractive.
Kevin: Yeah, it's, it's, um.
Yeah, it's some stuff that I feel like human characters could
definitely not get away with.
that they're Klingons makes it, makes it, um, okay.
Rob: Especially they focus on one Klingon woman, in, like, in a cutaway
shot, and they focus on her so much, and then we never see her again.
So the one, there's the one that speaks,
Kevin: moment is given to, there is not just one woman on klingon ship, two.
And so it is normal for them to be serving in the ranks.
I was really glad to see that because the, there's a, a walk and talk earlier
on before Riker goes on the mission with Worf, where Worf is, is confirming
Riker's understanding of the, uh, chain of command on Klingon ships, and
that is your duty to, uh, assassinate your superior when he becomes, uh,
incapable of fulfilling his duties.
And all of the pronouns in that, uh, conversation are he, so he
will assassinate his captain when he becomes incapable.
And I was like, Ooh, he, he, he, um, like, It would have been nothing at the time,
but this is one of the things that hasn't aged well about this show that, uh, any
of those people could or should be women.
I'm still hanging out for my first, uh, my first, um, female starship captain,
apart from Lursa and B'Etor, of course.
Rob: Oh right, I thought you were hanging out for your first, uh, Klingon
human ménage à trois, um, but that's a whole, that's a whole other podcast.
Kevin: No, but it was, yeah, you're right.
It was great to see, uh, women among the rank and file of this Klingon ship.
Rob: And, but, you know, on, on the flip side of that, it was kind of disappointing
that it was still quite late 80s, so when she is showing her interest, um,
Riker is clearly disgusted, as opposed to, as opposed to going, Hey, we're all
other species, and you know, it's okay.
Like, the thought of being with a Klingon woman is, oh, I'm going,
Ah, I'm glad they even evolve
Kevin: I didn't quite read that.
He had the same uncomfortable smile as he had when looking at the food to me.
Oh, this is very Klingon, but I'm going along with it.
Rob: along.
I can just see he's stuck in a threesome going, All right, I'm
just going to go along with this.
Okay,
Kevin: a funny when she leaves, there is a funny shot like it cuts from Riker in
close up looking uncomfortable and then it cuts to a wide shot as she leaves the
mess hall, and now in restored HD, you can actually lean in and almost make out
Riker's expression in this very wide shot.
And it's kind of like, weeeeee.
Like it was not meant to be seen.
It felt like almost a, an, an outtake.
Um,
Rob: But, um, this episode did beautiful with, you know, the disgrace within the
Klingon culture of a, not having a, um, uh, a warrior's death and what that means,
not, yeah, and especially, it rings true, especially because with future episodes
with Riker and his dad, for him there going, he's your, he's your father.
He's there going, I will not talk to him again, I will never see him
again, he goes, He's your father, um, was really powerful stuff.
Kevin: Big shout out to Brian Thompson who played Klag, Riker's
second officer on this ship.
This is a guy he's, I, I always remember him from his outings in The X-Files
as, as a kind of a heavy in that.
He often plays the scary, intimidating, um, bad guy of
little, uh, little dialogue.
But here he had some speeches and some character beats, some great,
just like meaningful looks that I thought worked really well.
Rob: The fact that, yeah, I thought, oh, okay, he's gonna be killed off early
on, but no, they kept him, he was his main connection, so that at the end,
when Riker gets hit by the captain and sent off, he goes, thank you, my friend,
and they're going, they've earned that.
He's also done, yeah, he's, he's been a, a figurehead within, Um,
genre TV and film for, for decades.
He was like in the first episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer
as a vampire, killed off.
Then he came back as another character in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the Destroyer.
Um, he's done multiple, you know, like the X-Files as you said,
but he always brings the goods.
He's, he was very good in this particularly and they
gave him a lot to work with.
Um, and the complications of when our captain of the Klingon ship gets a bit
too, you know, doesn't follow orders and goes rogue, how Riker manages
the minefield of, you have no honor, I will battle here, I'll find then
Kevin: I think to this day, these are my favorite scenes on the
bridge of a Klingon starship.
And that includes all of the scenes in movies, amazingly
produced and acted movies.
It works, the politics of a Klingon bridge are so well realized here.
It's really enjoyable.
Um, We, we had at this point seen a bridge of a Klingon starship on Star Trek: The
Next Generation once before in Heart of Glory, which is a season one, episode 20.
And, uh, according to my reading, I have to go back and look at it.
When we see that bridge, it's only through the view screen over comms and
in the background of the Klingon captain is both the Klingon Empire's seal, but
also the United Federation of Planets, like they are by side behind his head.
And it's supposed to really be leaning into that idea that we are, we are now
allies and almost, and the Klingons are not just allies, but part of the
United Federation of Planets now, and they backed back from that here, and
I feel like reused one of the sets from the movies, or at least parts
of it, uh, and it feels like this is where that look of a Klingon ship is
truly established for the first time.
Rob: Yeah.
Because I'm definitely looking at Star Trek III, they're just, you
know, moustache twirling villains.
I mean, Christopher Lloyd does a great job, but there is nothing
other than he's just the black hat, and he's got his henchmen.
This is really good for the Klingons of going, this is the culture,
these are the people that they are.
And it's, it's beautifully done.
And, and that final moment with Riker, with the punch.
Learning when not to duck.
Beautiful line.
Um, as he walks out with Worf going, you know, Can I just say?
I'm really glad we have you on our ship.
Yeah, it's
Kevin: Yeah.
You come from an amazing culture and I'm glad you're on our side.
Uh.
Captain Kargon, the, the Klingon captain does a good job here.
He is, uh, memorable for me because he comes back later this very same season
as the, the captain of the Pakled ship, which you've seen, the cap, the Pakleds
in Lower Decks, these like kind of dull, not very intelligent, uh, species.
He very much plays that archetype as the Pakled captain and you can see
shades of it here is like, he's a captain, he has gravitas, but he's
not the brightest bulb in the pack.
Rob: Yeah, so he's definitely not gonna be remembered, uh, there's not gonna be songs
sung about him, that's, that's for sure,
Kevin: I really love the portrayal though, and it's both in the writing
and the performance that, um, being a good Klingon captain does not
necessarily mean being a smart person.
Uh, it's playing the political game, uh, in order to get the best out
of the crew under your leadership.
Rob: Definitely.
And I think, yeah, it was clearly shown that he got as well, like
that final ending with Riker.
Riker's there going, this is what you gotta do, and he's going, yeah,
this is what I've gotta do as well.
We can't go, thanks for that, thanks for that.
I've gotta hit you, and then I've gotta get you dragged off so I can
keep face, cause that's what we do.
Um, really beautifully done.
Yeah, well acted, and it was a shame to bring him into the fluorescent lights
of the Enterprise, cause it may, yeah.
The makeup should take the makeup under that lighting should not
take away from his excellent work.
Kevin: Yes, Christopher Collins is the actor there.
Well done, sir.
And I felt like a small miracle in the writing here of the fact what for
this episode to work as a premise, the Klingon captain had to be hell bent and
convinced of the fact that the Enterprise had betrayed them and needed to be
destroyed and yet be willing to keep Riker in position as his first officer.
And, uh, they achieved that and I can't quite see how they achieved that.
It's a small miracle
Rob: beautiful thing of going, y'know, denounce your ship, he goes, I'm not
denouncing my ship, but I'm staying here, and he goes, well, I would have, y'know,
if you threw your ship under the bus, that would have you a man of no honour.
And you're there going,
Kevin: I would where you stand.
Rob: have killed you and I'm going, oh my gosh, how do you manage that?
Um, and also had a, uh, many, many years before.
Uh, Captain Phillips came out, uh, we had Riker doing, I am the captain now.
Kevin: Yup.
Rob: But he very much, Riker definitely filled in the role of, uh, Kirk.
He was being very James T. Kirk in that.
Kevin: Yeah, glad we matched on it.
I was so happy to be reminded of this episode's existence.
It had passed from my consciousness.
And when I went looking for Klingon ship stories, it was right there on the list.
And I went, Oh yeah, I love that episode.
Rob: It's really good, even at the start, when we have the
awkward, we all look alike line,
Kevin: They blow past it pretty quickly.
Rob: pass it pretty quickly.
Um, but yeah, and some great moments with Miles O'Brien in there, um,
and, uh, yeah, and Worf got a lot to do as well, which was lovely.
Kevin: Wesley.
Wesley had a fair bit to do as well.
Um, I don't know.
Wesley is as Wesley was at the time.
Uh, as good as you could expect given what they were giving him.
Rob: Yeah, Wesley bringing an end to that B plot, quite a nice little nod there.
Um, But yeah, for me it was great to go back, and I mean, any time
you throw a TNG episode at me, you throw me nothing but the best.
Um, and I found that one myself, so I'm
Kevin: Very good.
Well done, sir.
Rob: What a, what a great, what a great episode for the Klingons.
That's one of the better Klingon episodes, I reckon.
Especially because it's so early on, we kind of, we kind of more focus on
the later Deep Space Nine ones, where everything has been established, but
we wouldn't have that, like you said.
And Ronald D. Moore gets a lot of credit for that, but we wouldn't have that
if we didn't have this episode here.
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely.
Um, it echoes all the way into Deep Space Nine's Klingon stories and
Rob: Way of the Warrior stuff
Kevin: here.
Rob: Apocalypse Rising, all the stuff we've talked about before, we've talked
about all those big ones in Deep Space Nine before, we wouldn't have those if
we didn't have, uh, A Matter of Honor.
So I will I didn't know of this episode, now I will never forget it.
So,
Kevin: Yeah.
Great.
Well, we are recording this on the eve of Section 31 arriving on our intertubes.
And, uh,
Rob: the show that they've been trying for decades to get online
and nobody has ever wanted it.
Kevin: I'm, I'm looking forward to being pleasantly surprised
because my expectations are low.
I think, I think you're in a similar boat.
Rob: And we know that they're trying to be actively un Star Trek, in
how it's put together and how it's thrown together, so that's what we
need to conscious of going into it.
Kevin: I'm in the mood to be forgiving of an experiment,
even if that experiment fails.
Uh, if, if nothing else, it will be brief.
Hehehehe
Rob: always, Mr. Yank, are the diplomat.
So you are
Kevin: I, I guess what I'm hoping for, um, if, if this is a failure and is ultimately
a story we don't enjoy, I hope it serves at least one function, is to clear our
throats of all of this Section 31 stuff.
I we can, I hope we can do it once and for all and move past it.
Rob: This'll be it.
This'll be it.
We've been talking about it for decades, and it's never been able to get off.
This was meant to be a series, now it's just a telemovie, that's only
being shown online, obviously.
So, if it's good, great, wonderful, it's not gonna lead to anything else.
Kevin: I hope it makes its point in the 90 minutes or however long runtime it is.
If it's, if it's a setup for a dangling, uh, cliffhanger and it
goes, eh, if you give us a TV series, we'll tell you the rest of the
story, then yeah, not interested.
Rob: Yeah, I'm looking forward to when we reconnect to talk about this,
and whether they did do that or not.
Kevin: Yes.
Well, come along on the adventure with us listeners.
Given, given when we are recording this, it is highly likely you have
already seen Section 31 by the time you're listening to this.
So, um, I, I, Rob and I look forward to joining you in that magical
future that you find yourself.
Rob: We'll see you there, people, in the future, that is, a couple weeks away.