WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.170 --> 00:00:05.370 Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:09.720 I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:13.590 from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:18.840 Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.700 strategies that make an impact. 00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:21.750 Let's get started. 00:00:23.253 --> 00:00:26.733 Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical Show where Leaders Talk Business. 00:00:27.213 --> 00:00:33.103 I am recording this episode in the timeframe between InCosmetics and NYSCC 00:00:33.123 --> 00:00:38.703 suppliers Day, and we are giving this a personal care ingredients focus. 00:00:38.783 --> 00:00:43.263 And because of that, I am speaking with an expert in the market, so Sunanda, 00:00:43.283 --> 00:00:49.343 Sunnie, Desai is the Vice President at Kline and Company where she leads 00:00:49.343 --> 00:00:53.693 the global chemicals and materials practice and oversees the firm's 00:00:53.693 --> 00:00:55.883 advisory service in the chemical sector. 00:00:56.183 --> 00:01:00.503 So Sunnie is an expert in go to market and growth strategies, and she 00:01:00.503 --> 00:01:05.003 works extensively with clients across personal and consumer care industries. 00:01:05.333 --> 00:01:08.153 We're gonna have a great conversation about what's happening. 00:01:08.678 --> 00:01:10.538 The personal care ingredients market. 00:01:10.848 --> 00:01:15.298 It says it gonna be a great tea into folks going to Supplier's Day, and to folks 00:01:15.298 --> 00:01:18.958 that aren't going to Supplier's day, but are just interested in what's happening. 00:01:18.958 --> 00:01:21.388 So Sunnie, welcome to the Chemical Show. 00:01:21.905 --> 00:01:23.345 Sunanda Desai: Thank you for having me, Victoria. 00:01:23.375 --> 00:01:24.125 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:01:24.508 --> 00:01:25.858 Victoria: I am so glad to have you here. 00:01:26.128 --> 00:01:28.708 So let's just start with your origin story. 00:01:28.708 --> 00:01:30.538 I love to start every episode with this. 00:01:30.598 --> 00:01:31.888 What's your origin story? 00:01:31.888 --> 00:01:37.648 How did you get interested and engaged in chemicals and specifically in 00:01:37.648 --> 00:01:40.108 personal care and, consumer care? 00:01:40.715 --> 00:01:44.240 Sunanda: so I've always, enjoyed analytical, uh, topics 00:01:44.540 --> 00:01:46.220 and, I come from a family. 00:01:46.310 --> 00:01:50.020 Um, my, both my parents, have education in mathematics and the sciences. 00:01:50.020 --> 00:01:50.080 I. 00:01:50.350 --> 00:01:53.680 So, I have a little bit of a typ, atypical, uh, background for the 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:55.120 chemicals and materials industry. 00:01:55.300 --> 00:01:59.440 I actually started my career as a software developer in Silicon Valley in California. 00:01:59.800 --> 00:02:02.320 I have a math computer science undergrad degree. 00:02:02.650 --> 00:02:06.480 And, really enjoyed actually the, the analytical aspect of, of 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.100 programming and software development. 00:02:08.370 --> 00:02:11.280 And eventually I found my way into consulting. 00:02:11.700 --> 00:02:15.940 And, I really like the energy of consulting. 00:02:16.220 --> 00:02:20.300 The aspect of solving problems, answering questions with a great degree 00:02:20.300 --> 00:02:22.640 of intensity, uh, working in a team. 00:02:22.640 --> 00:02:24.590 I, I really enjoy all of those. 00:02:24.650 --> 00:02:29.260 Aspects of consulting and, I felt a lot of passion for chemicals, 00:02:29.260 --> 00:02:30.670 materials, and ingredients. 00:02:30.880 --> 00:02:34.720 I think, this is an industry that touches every aspect of our lives. 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:38.860 And, when the opportunity came to work with client and company on two 00:02:38.860 --> 00:02:43.420 favorite areas, essentially consulting and the industry, I, I took it and, 00:02:43.420 --> 00:02:45.010 um, as they say, the rest is history. 00:02:45.413 --> 00:02:45.833 Victoria: Yeah. 00:02:45.863 --> 00:02:50.423 Well, and, and I think that's really cool 'cause we don't necessarily 00:02:50.423 --> 00:02:53.813 have a lot of data scientists, or at least, how about this? 00:02:53.843 --> 00:02:57.293 We didn't used to have a lot of data scientists in the industry, 00:02:57.293 --> 00:02:58.733 and I know that's a growing field. 00:02:59.003 --> 00:03:04.193 And I would not often think of people going from Silicon Valley to, uh. 00:03:05.078 --> 00:03:07.088 The chemical industry even as a consultant. 00:03:07.088 --> 00:03:08.648 So I think that's a great leap. 00:03:08.698 --> 00:03:11.788 And really just kind of interesting journey that you've taken. 00:03:12.358 --> 00:03:14.878 Let's talk a little bit about Kline and Company. 00:03:14.908 --> 00:03:17.218 'Cause a lot of people may not be familiar with them. 00:03:18.025 --> 00:03:18.595 Sunanda: Absolutely. 00:03:18.815 --> 00:03:24.275 Kline is a global, management, consulting, advisory, market research firm. 00:03:24.425 --> 00:03:28.685 We've been active in the specialty chemicals, materials, and ingredient space 00:03:28.713 --> 00:03:28.833 Victoria: I. 00:03:29.045 --> 00:03:30.095 Sunanda: 65 years. 00:03:30.395 --> 00:03:31.595 We have a global presence. 00:03:31.655 --> 00:03:33.125 We're headquartered in New Jersey. 00:03:33.155 --> 00:03:36.035 We have offices all over in Europe and in Asia. 00:03:36.410 --> 00:03:40.470 And, essentially from a personal care and consumer perspective, we 00:03:40.470 --> 00:03:45.060 cover the entire beauty value chain, starting from the ingredients, the 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:48.970 raw materials, the ingredients, all the way down to the brand owners, 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:50.560 the distribution, and the retailers. 00:03:50.590 --> 00:03:53.110 The business covers the entire personal care value chain. 00:03:53.608 --> 00:03:54.328 Victoria: That's really cool. 00:03:54.328 --> 00:03:58.858 I've been familiar with Kline for probably about a decade, um, but I definitely 00:03:58.858 --> 00:04:03.768 think of them, think of Kline as really, especially chemicals, and really just 00:04:03.768 --> 00:04:06.678 bringing a lot of data and insight to. 00:04:07.323 --> 00:04:11.163 Markets and products that maybe are sometimes difficult to understand. 00:04:11.193 --> 00:04:15.153 Um, and I know I will say, I am just going to tell you, I like when people 00:04:15.153 --> 00:04:17.673 ask me for, you know, Hey, do you know how to find this information? 00:04:17.673 --> 00:04:20.373 I'm like, I don't, but you know, let me send you over to somebody 00:04:20.373 --> 00:04:21.543 at Kline because maybe they do. 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:27.670 Sunanda: We are very good at going deep within the important aspects of 00:04:27.670 --> 00:04:29.410 the personal care ingredient space, 00:04:29.493 --> 00:04:29.853 Victoria: Yeah. 00:04:29.913 --> 00:04:30.453 Love that. 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:31.900 Sunanda: and as well as the breadth. 00:04:31.948 --> 00:04:35.638 Victoria: So with that, what are you seeing in the market today? 00:04:35.638 --> 00:04:38.488 What are the key trends that are affecting personal care 00:04:38.488 --> 00:04:41.038 ingredients in 2025 and beyond? 00:04:41.570 --> 00:04:44.720 Sunanda: So, um, let me characterize the personal care ingredients industry. 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.680 So this is about a $30 billion ingredients industry. 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:49.100 Okay? 00:04:49.100 --> 00:04:53.130 So from the manufacturer's perspective, and if you look at it, there's 00:04:53.130 --> 00:04:56.610 the actives, specialty actives, which are very much a concept cell. 00:04:56.980 --> 00:04:59.710 You have more of the commoditized ingredients, and then you have 00:04:59.710 --> 00:05:01.510 the entire specialties, which are 00:05:01.808 --> 00:05:02.138 Victoria: Hmm. 00:05:02.530 --> 00:05:03.640 Sunanda: that are highly differentiated. 00:05:03.885 --> 00:05:05.145 This is where client focus is. 00:05:05.385 --> 00:05:08.895 Now, if we talk, think about the trends that are affecting the market, 00:05:09.195 --> 00:05:13.065 sustainability continues to be an important trend in this space, and 00:05:13.298 --> 00:05:13.358 Victoria: Yeah. 00:05:13.545 --> 00:05:15.285 Sunanda: is essentially natural ingredients. 00:05:15.315 --> 00:05:19.095 You know, naturalness and natural ingredients are still important, and I. 00:05:19.250 --> 00:05:23.330 The interesting aspect of sustainability though is the impact that sustainability 00:05:23.330 --> 00:05:26.990 has on natural ingredients have vary by ingredient category. 00:05:27.200 --> 00:05:32.540 So in, for instance, surfactants, emollient, actives that actually have 00:05:32.660 --> 00:05:37.520 very good natural alternatives to offer and where there is an opportunity to make 00:05:37.520 --> 00:05:42.650 a claim or uh, or branded as a natural product, definitely has much more of that. 00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:46.370 Push from naturals or it has that, uplift, but there's certain, 00:05:46.414 --> 00:05:50.764 categories like preservatives or UV ingredients where it's a little bit 00:05:50.807 --> 00:05:51.027 Victoria: Hmm. 00:05:51.304 --> 00:05:54.214 Sunanda: because there might not be suitable natural alternatives 00:05:54.394 --> 00:05:57.124 that perform at the same level of efficacy that is needed. 00:05:57.365 --> 00:05:57.755 Victoria: Yeah. 00:05:58.085 --> 00:06:02.675 And so then the, um, the formulators, the brands and the formulators are 00:06:02.675 --> 00:06:07.565 making decisions based on that, based on availability and efficacy. 00:06:08.382 --> 00:06:09.282 Sunanda: They are, they 00:06:09.365 --> 00:06:09.605 Victoria: Yeah. 00:06:09.642 --> 00:06:13.102 Sunanda: Um, as you know that there have been recent announcements, by certain 00:06:13.102 --> 00:06:16.552 big brands such as L'Oreal have made announcements that there's going to be a 00:06:16.552 --> 00:06:18.922 significant portion of their ingredient. 00:06:18.922 --> 00:06:21.022 Formulations are going to have natural ingredients. 00:06:21.517 --> 00:06:22.387 By 2030. 00:06:22.657 --> 00:06:26.647 So there's definitely those types of announcements and the brand 00:06:26.647 --> 00:06:31.727 owner pushes that are basically in pushing the industry, towards 00:06:31.727 --> 00:06:32.512 more natural ingredients. 00:06:32.620 --> 00:06:32.920 Victoria: Yeah. 00:06:33.220 --> 00:06:34.540 What other trends are you seeing? 00:06:35.087 --> 00:06:37.157 Sunanda: From a consumer perspective, there's definitely 00:06:37.157 --> 00:06:38.567 a trend towards wellbeing. 00:06:38.897 --> 00:06:43.937 And so what that means from a, a beauty perspective is neuro cosmetics are 00:06:43.937 --> 00:06:48.407 actually of interest and neuro cosmetics actually are topical cosmetics, right? 00:06:48.407 --> 00:06:52.447 So they're topical, products that are applied to the skin, but they interact 00:06:52.447 --> 00:06:56.257 with the nervous system of the skin to essentially produce a desired effect. 00:06:56.257 --> 00:06:59.647 It could be enhanced mood, it could be relaxation. 00:06:59.972 --> 00:07:03.962 And there's different ingredients that are formulated with these products to 00:07:03.962 --> 00:07:08.042 give that there could be neuropeptides, there could be cannabinoids, there could 00:07:08.042 --> 00:07:14.102 be different ingredients that confer this particular effect to a neuro uh, cosmetic. 00:07:14.475 --> 00:07:16.125 Victoria: Is this a generational thing? 00:07:16.125 --> 00:07:18.435 I, 'cause I gotta be honest, I'm a little freaked out by 00:07:18.435 --> 00:07:20.985 some of this, um, personally. 00:07:21.265 --> 00:07:24.535 But is it, is it, do you see this trend cutting across. 00:07:24.775 --> 00:07:30.835 Demographics or is it localized or is it just still starting and therefore will 00:07:30.835 --> 00:07:33.420 become widespread um, in a few years? 00:07:34.427 --> 00:07:36.827 Sunanda: I mean, if you think about aroma therapy, right? 00:07:36.827 --> 00:07:37.217 Like there 00:07:37.300 --> 00:07:37.380 Victoria: Hmm. 00:07:38.207 --> 00:07:39.497 Sunanda: this, this aspect of using. 00:07:40.897 --> 00:07:45.097 Essential oils or, or other aspects to kind of enhance your 00:07:45.097 --> 00:07:48.997 surroundings, enhance your mood, and, you know, support relaxation. 00:07:49.327 --> 00:07:53.467 So it is essentially, there has been that movement for a while now. 00:07:53.675 --> 00:07:53.915 Victoria: Yeah. 00:07:54.067 --> 00:07:57.757 Sunanda: we're seeing is essentially using more neuro cosmetics to 00:07:57.757 --> 00:08:01.627 kind of produce that, from a skin, from a topical perspective. 00:08:02.055 --> 00:08:03.975 . Victoria: So, who's regulating these products? 00:08:03.975 --> 00:08:08.405 So when I think about these actives, and having neurological effects, 00:08:08.805 --> 00:08:12.615 what agencies or how do, are they getting regulated differently 00:08:12.615 --> 00:08:14.295 than other personal care products? 00:08:14.295 --> 00:08:18.195 Do they, or is it all part of the same ecosystem? 00:08:18.982 --> 00:08:22.762 Sunanda: Well, all the products have to meet the requirements that are 00:08:22.792 --> 00:08:26.932 mandated for any personal care product to go out into the market, you know? 00:08:26.932 --> 00:08:27.382 So, 00:08:27.534 --> 00:08:31.854 my understanding is it's not that they're not that I, that they're not being FDA 00:08:31.854 --> 00:08:34.044 regulated or I do not know if the FDA is 00:08:34.322 --> 00:08:34.712 Victoria: Hmm. 00:08:34.764 --> 00:08:35.214 Sunanda: of these. 00:08:35.504 --> 00:08:38.234 , But they have to meet the basic requirements to be able to be 00:08:38.234 --> 00:08:39.704 marketed as a personal care product. 00:08:40.387 --> 00:08:40.747 Victoria: Got it. 00:08:40.747 --> 00:08:41.257 Makes sense. 00:08:41.310 --> 00:08:46.080 One of the things we were talking about earlier is the role of digitization in ai. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.960 And that's certainly a trend that, is here. 00:08:49.260 --> 00:08:53.220 And when we think about cutting across the industry, how do you 00:08:53.220 --> 00:08:57.160 see, personal care companies and personal care ingredient manufacturers 00:08:57.190 --> 00:09:00.370 harnessing, uh, digitization and ai. 00:09:01.502 --> 00:09:05.102 Sunanda: So digitalization and AI is, is an important trend. 00:09:05.462 --> 00:09:10.092 To, to keep track of and definitely, there's various ways in which 00:09:10.122 --> 00:09:11.742 AI is actually being used. 00:09:11.742 --> 00:09:11.982 Now. 00:09:11.982 --> 00:09:15.792 The most, maybe the aspect of it that's been most known to 00:09:15.852 --> 00:09:18.072 more people is personalization. 00:09:18.252 --> 00:09:22.872 So the use of AI driven tools to essentially, um, hyper-personalized 00:09:22.902 --> 00:09:26.702 offerings based on certain skin types or, hair types. 00:09:26.762 --> 00:09:30.122 So that's actually the, the consumer end where you're actually targeting 00:09:30.245 --> 00:09:30.535 Victoria: Yeah. 00:09:30.962 --> 00:09:32.042 Sunanda: to certain consumers. 00:09:32.792 --> 00:09:37.862 other uses are more behind the scenes supporting ingredient, say ingredient 00:09:37.862 --> 00:09:42.842 assessments to essentially really quickly assess ingredients for efficacy. 00:09:43.145 --> 00:09:46.295 and there's also essentially optimizing formulations. 00:09:46.595 --> 00:09:51.395 Now, while all of these have been, you know, raised and discussed in the press as 00:09:51.733 --> 00:09:51.793 Victoria: Yeah. 00:09:52.145 --> 00:09:56.225 Sunanda: you know, ai, uh, uses, this point, it is unclear how 00:09:56.225 --> 00:09:59.775 much of this is being, you know, actually implemented within, the 00:09:59.775 --> 00:10:00.915 companies that we're looking at. 00:10:00.945 --> 00:10:05.145 But there are several high profile announcements on partnerships in 00:10:05.145 --> 00:10:10.485 the public domain between beauty brands and, you know, AI suppliers. 00:10:10.605 --> 00:10:14.552 So we have to see how much of this really is, being used. 00:10:14.715 --> 00:10:17.625 Victoria: So one of the things I've, I've, I've observed when I've talked 00:10:17.625 --> 00:10:19.545 to leaders across the industries. 00:10:19.575 --> 00:10:21.015 Number one, everybody's grappling with. 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:26.670 How do they really utilize and execute AI and bring it into their systems, right? 00:10:26.670 --> 00:10:30.340 So people are, experimenting and I think that would align with perhaps what 00:10:30.340 --> 00:10:35.350 you're saying is people are experimenting and yet the biggest companies are 00:10:35.350 --> 00:10:37.660 embracing and experimenting even more So. 00:10:37.950 --> 00:10:42.150 I was at an event recently and somebody from Exxon, for instance, was. 00:10:42.180 --> 00:10:45.750 Talking about the AI and digitization that they're using 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:46.890 in their manufacturing sites. 00:10:46.890 --> 00:10:50.220 You know, flying drones to get temperature readings and doing other 00:10:50.220 --> 00:10:54.120 stuff and things that companies maybe can't necessarily dream about. 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.730 I know you've talked about the, the L'Oreal example, and I've 00:10:56.730 --> 00:11:00.310 seen similar things from L'Oreal and Unilever's and others, as it 00:11:00.310 --> 00:11:01.780 relates to the consumer brands. 00:11:01.780 --> 00:11:07.700 And part of it is we need these, um, the bigger companies to, to lead the way and 00:11:07.700 --> 00:11:09.500 do some of this testing and figure out. 00:11:09.670 --> 00:11:13.420 How it's all gonna work so that it becomes more widespread in 00:11:13.420 --> 00:11:15.280 adoption across the industry. 00:11:16.452 --> 00:11:18.342 Sunanda: Absolutely Victoria, and that's what it is. 00:11:18.342 --> 00:11:21.072 Market leaders will always embrace new technology 00:11:21.100 --> 00:11:21.310 Victoria: Yeah, 00:11:21.852 --> 00:11:23.892 Sunanda: and try to see where it can take them, 00:11:24.245 --> 00:11:24.535 Victoria: yeah, 00:11:24.612 --> 00:11:26.562 Sunanda: the rest of the market and the rest of the players 00:11:26.562 --> 00:11:27.822 in the space follow suit. 00:11:27.922 --> 00:11:30.502 What you're mentioning right now is an example of that. 00:11:30.615 --> 00:11:30.905 Victoria: yeah. 00:11:31.123 --> 00:11:36.133 So, you know, we're sitting here in 2025 in a period of a lot of. 00:11:36.713 --> 00:11:38.963 Turmoil, let's call it turmoil, right? 00:11:38.963 --> 00:11:44.153 So tariffs, regulations, you know, we've got the new administration in the us 00:11:44.153 --> 00:11:50.033 but let's not forget, we actually have new governments and new governmental 00:11:50.033 --> 00:11:52.463 leaders across the world, right? 00:11:52.888 --> 00:11:57.388 But certainly if we, we focus in on what's going on from reciprocal tariffs 00:11:57.388 --> 00:12:03.508 to non tariffs, to pauses to others, there's just a ton of uncertainty and, 00:12:03.598 --> 00:12:05.158 you know, maybe a bit of an uproar. 00:12:05.158 --> 00:12:10.548 It seems, at least, at the biggest level, how is this affecting the 00:12:10.548 --> 00:12:11.623 companies that you work with? 00:12:12.484 --> 00:12:13.939 Sunanda: So that's a very good question. 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.620 There, there is a significant degree of uncertainty in the market, as you say, 00:12:17.950 --> 00:12:21.670 and the most important thing for personal care companies to think about is how 00:12:21.670 --> 00:12:24.100 to manage in the face of uncertainty. 00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:28.160 There is definitely various strategies that can be undertaken. 00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:33.600 But there is an aspect of agility and making those quick decisions based on 00:12:34.180 --> 00:12:37.570 , the situations in the market and what are the no regret moves that can be made. 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:39.400 This is an important way of thinking. 00:12:39.745 --> 00:12:43.615 From a personal care, um, for a personal care in industry leader. 00:12:44.625 --> 00:12:48.805 If we were to talk a bit more concretely about specifics, really that what that 00:12:48.805 --> 00:12:52.885 would entail is when the tariff situation started, you know, there was a lot of 00:12:52.885 --> 00:12:54.715 concern in terms of the impact, right? 00:12:54.745 --> 00:12:55.915 Increased costs, 00:12:56.013 --> 00:12:56.303 Victoria: Yeah. 00:12:56.575 --> 00:12:58.465 Sunanda: costs, increased prices, all of that. 00:12:58.800 --> 00:13:01.890 So from the perspective of now, we we're seeing some discussions 00:13:01.890 --> 00:13:04.350 where there might be some reprieve, but it's still uncertain. 00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:07.650 So what does this mean for personal care ingredient suppliers? 00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:12.540 Well, it's still the time to be thinking more strategically about what are those 00:13:12.540 --> 00:13:14.610 no regret moves that you can make today. 00:13:14.815 --> 00:13:18.085 That will still put you in a good position regardless of what the outcome is. 00:13:18.415 --> 00:13:20.905 And some of those could be thinking about the supplier base. 00:13:20.905 --> 00:13:23.575 Is this a good time to diversify that supplier base? 00:13:23.825 --> 00:13:26.825 Is this a good time to invest in some of those relationships with 00:13:26.825 --> 00:13:30.785 contract manufacturers so that you can or enhance those relationships 00:13:30.785 --> 00:13:32.345 so that there is an opportunity? 00:13:32.635 --> 00:13:34.435 To manufacture formulations 00:13:34.508 --> 00:13:34.728 Victoria: Hmm. 00:13:35.095 --> 00:13:38.365 Sunanda: where those tariff, uh, tariff considerations might not be so harsh. 00:13:38.722 --> 00:13:42.952 it's also a time to think about should any ingredient or, or should any, 00:13:42.952 --> 00:13:48.742 formulations be visited, revisited, um, to, maybe consider ingredients that might 00:13:48.742 --> 00:13:51.262 be negatively impacted by any future. 00:13:51.447 --> 00:13:53.397 Um, or even current tariff restrictions. 00:13:53.777 --> 00:13:56.567 And as you know, Victoria, the devil is always in the details. 00:13:56.597 --> 00:13:59.297 I mean, if you really were to look closely at what's in the 00:13:59.297 --> 00:14:01.847 annex, um, there are exemptions. 00:14:01.977 --> 00:14:02.997 And then there are not. 00:14:03.147 --> 00:14:07.557 So really kind of understanding, you know, are my ingredients falling within 00:14:07.557 --> 00:14:09.597 that exemption list are or are they not? 00:14:09.597 --> 00:14:12.717 So kind of starting from that point is also very important. 00:14:12.985 --> 00:14:14.125 Victoria: Yeah, I think those are great. 00:14:14.125 --> 00:14:16.195 And, and, and the no regret moves. 00:14:16.195 --> 00:14:17.335 I like the way you frame that. 00:14:17.575 --> 00:14:21.475 I was speaking with the, um, a leader recently and, you know, everybody's 00:14:21.475 --> 00:14:22.885 always like, well, how's business? 00:14:22.885 --> 00:14:23.725 Is business soft? 00:14:23.725 --> 00:14:24.235 Is it busy? 00:14:24.235 --> 00:14:24.565 Or whatever? 00:14:24.565 --> 00:14:26.575 But this person was like, they are so busy. 00:14:26.575 --> 00:14:29.465 And part of it is, they're doing a lot of projects with their, 00:14:29.565 --> 00:14:31.725 business partners, their customers, et cetera. 00:14:31.815 --> 00:14:35.535 And I think a lot of this is around reformulations innovations, 00:14:35.625 --> 00:14:39.555 thinking about these things that you've talked about, supply chain, 00:14:39.855 --> 00:14:42.435 what products you're bringing in, and how you can be more effective. 00:14:42.435 --> 00:14:44.895 So I think that's, you know, it's definitely good news. 00:14:44.895 --> 00:14:47.670 I think we're always a little bit worried, and I know that, you 00:14:47.670 --> 00:14:50.145 know, market softness is a concern. 00:14:50.145 --> 00:14:53.325 The cost of doing business and the cost of raw ingredients and 00:14:53.325 --> 00:14:55.335 the effects that has is a concern. 00:14:55.665 --> 00:14:57.725 But I think, getting busy. 00:14:58.265 --> 00:15:00.245 On these no regret moves is really smart. 00:15:01.377 --> 00:15:02.817 Sunanda: You're absolutely right, Victoria. 00:15:02.877 --> 00:15:06.417 In light of the current situation, it is also important to think about are there 00:15:06.417 --> 00:15:09.147 quick wins that can be taken advantage of? 00:15:09.177 --> 00:15:11.527 Are there, opportunities to cross sell? 00:15:11.747 --> 00:15:15.347 Are there inorganic opportunities that can be, you know, considered 00:15:15.347 --> 00:15:16.637 in light of these changes? 00:15:16.847 --> 00:15:22.217 So, um, definitely that's another point to keep in mind, to enhance one's position. 00:15:22.577 --> 00:15:24.777 Victoria: Is this a busy time for Kline? 00:15:24.877 --> 00:15:26.977 Do you see a lot of. 00:15:27.302 --> 00:15:30.932 Clients coming to you with big questions, and if so, what, what are they? 00:15:30.932 --> 00:15:34.202 What are the questions that your clients are asking you today? 00:15:34.894 --> 00:15:38.004 Sunanda: Yes, it is a busy time for us and, certainly 00:15:38.004 --> 00:15:39.414 our clients are coming to us. 00:15:39.414 --> 00:15:42.704 One of the things they're coming to us is exactly that, what are the, 00:15:43.394 --> 00:15:45.734 are the quick wins in the market that we can take advantage of? 00:15:45.734 --> 00:15:49.184 Are there, um, inorganic plays that we can 00:15:49.407 --> 00:15:49.947 Victoria: Yeah. 00:15:50.294 --> 00:15:54.164 Sunanda: You know, are there opportunities for ingredients that 00:15:54.164 --> 00:15:59.084 might not have been so, , considered a few years ago that now become relevant 00:15:59.114 --> 00:16:04.544 in light of,, more considerations on price, price versus performance? 00:16:04.852 --> 00:16:05.142 Victoria: Yeah, 00:16:05.774 --> 00:16:07.964 Sunanda: there's, there's, we're getting questions of that 00:16:08.277 --> 00:16:09.327 Victoria: that's interesting. 00:16:09.327 --> 00:16:11.577 I, those three, those are all really interesting. 00:16:11.627 --> 00:16:15.032 Especially this piece about: There may be formulations and 00:16:15.032 --> 00:16:17.162 products today that make sense. 00:16:17.282 --> 00:16:20.072 That didn't make sense two or three years ago because the 00:16:20.072 --> 00:16:21.332 circumstances are different. 00:16:21.332 --> 00:16:24.732 So I think it's, it's always a good reminder to, revisit your 00:16:24.732 --> 00:16:28.392 pipeline 'cause what you thought was dead maybe is not dead. 00:16:28.482 --> 00:16:31.122 It maybe alive and awake again today. 00:16:31.452 --> 00:16:34.242 Um, you know, the other piece you talked about, there's inorganic growth. 00:16:34.242 --> 00:16:39.712 Do you see, a lot of interest in m and a activity right now. 00:16:39.712 --> 00:16:43.972 I mean, it's, again, it's it, you know, these periods of uncertainty, it's hard. 00:16:43.972 --> 00:16:46.192 But do you think that's gonna be happening? 00:16:46.192 --> 00:16:49.422 You know, if you were reading the Tea Leaves of the World, should 00:16:49.422 --> 00:16:50.862 we be expecting some moves? 00:16:51.674 --> 00:16:53.684 Sunanda: Certainly I do think there is opportunity for 00:16:53.684 --> 00:16:55.454 inorganic, plays in the market. 00:16:55.484 --> 00:16:59.194 Um, I was at InCosmetics, a few weeks ago, I guess a month ago at this point. 00:16:59.352 --> 00:16:59.682 Victoria: Yeah. 00:17:00.074 --> 00:17:02.804 Sunanda: and it's a very vibrant, it was a very vibrant show. 00:17:02.854 --> 00:17:04.834 And a lot of players in this space. 00:17:04.864 --> 00:17:09.554 So I can absolutely see that there is, I just think there is a lot of, there's 00:17:09.554 --> 00:17:12.944 a lot of players in the industry and I think that there is an opportunity for 00:17:12.974 --> 00:17:14.594 more consolidation in this industry. 00:17:14.594 --> 00:17:15.854 But this is my point of view. 00:17:15.854 --> 00:17:19.064 Victoria: We've talked about, uh, maybe some of the, the quick wins 00:17:19.064 --> 00:17:23.084 and the no regret moves, but what are the strategies that companies can 00:17:23.084 --> 00:17:28.154 and should be employing, um, to be successful here in 2025 and beyond? 00:17:29.101 --> 00:17:31.266 Sunanda: Um, so that, that's, that's a big question. 00:17:31.316 --> 00:17:35.216 My points were about kind of, um, essentially about taking 00:17:35.216 --> 00:17:38.486 advantage of the quick wins about reconsidering formulations. 00:17:38.756 --> 00:17:39.926 Bigger picture. 00:17:40.622 --> 00:17:44.192 bigger picture thinking is about really reconsidering whether the 00:17:44.192 --> 00:17:48.512 manufacturing footprint needs to be changed in light of the way the, the, 00:17:48.774 --> 00:17:49.944 Victoria: The way the world is going. 00:17:49.944 --> 00:17:51.954 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:52.674 --> 00:17:53.064 Yeah. 00:17:53.064 --> 00:17:53.994 I think that's interesting. 00:17:53.994 --> 00:17:55.824 I think people are grappling with this, right? 00:17:55.824 --> 00:17:59.064 Where, what the right investment profile is, what the 00:17:59.064 --> 00:18:01.134 manufacturing footprint should be. 00:18:01.524 --> 00:18:06.894 I can't decide if we are shifting to a time of more regionalization. 00:18:07.484 --> 00:18:10.154 Certainly regionalization of supply chain seem likely 00:18:10.214 --> 00:18:12.014 regionalization of manufacturing. 00:18:12.284 --> 00:18:13.094 I don't know. 00:18:13.154 --> 00:18:13.514 Right? 00:18:13.514 --> 00:18:16.574 Because it's a big investment to make, to move, right? 00:18:16.574 --> 00:18:19.754 To move plants and assets or to rebuild them. 00:18:19.834 --> 00:18:26.434 Is expensive and depending on a company's appetite, depending on frankly whether 00:18:26.434 --> 00:18:28.174 they're public or private, right? 00:18:28.174 --> 00:18:32.194 Because privately held companies maybe have, they have different time horizons 00:18:32.194 --> 00:18:35.614 and different judgment calls about whether they can make those investments. 00:18:35.614 --> 00:18:40.774 Whereas despite our best interest in, uh, in every public company, 00:18:40.774 --> 00:18:44.584 executive's interest in telling their story and helping their 00:18:44.584 --> 00:18:46.204 investors understand investors. 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:49.549 Still by and large want quick returns. 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:52.179 And so navigating to that is tricky. 00:18:53.156 --> 00:18:56.036 Sunanda: It absolutely is tricky and there were, there was a lot of 00:18:56.036 --> 00:18:59.846 discussion about look reconsidering manufacturing in the light of covid. 00:18:59.876 --> 00:19:00.176 But 00:19:00.244 --> 00:19:00.534 Victoria: Yeah. 00:19:00.686 --> 00:19:03.456 Sunanda: Covid was, over, I mean, none of those changes did happen. 00:19:03.456 --> 00:19:06.696 So whether this is going to be the motivating factor is, 00:19:06.696 --> 00:19:09.336 is, um, is yet to be seen, but 00:19:09.469 --> 00:19:09.529 Victoria: Yeah. 00:19:09.636 --> 00:19:12.876 Sunanda: at least reconsidering the supply chain and, and, uh, 00:19:12.876 --> 00:19:14.556 assessing the manufacturing footprint. 00:19:15.036 --> 00:19:15.576 Would be 00:19:16.514 --> 00:19:16.814 Victoria: Yeah. 00:19:17.504 --> 00:19:18.074 Makes sense. 00:19:18.224 --> 00:19:18.614 Makes sense. 00:19:18.914 --> 00:19:21.014 Alright, so Sunnie, let's talk about leadership. 00:19:21.804 --> 00:19:24.114 And I love to ask this question to people 'cause I love the 00:19:24.114 --> 00:19:25.344 responses that we get in. 00:19:25.344 --> 00:19:26.694 So do listeners. 00:19:26.694 --> 00:19:29.304 In fact, I hear, um, from folks is this is one of their 00:19:29.304 --> 00:19:30.714 favorite segments of the show. 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.869 So when you think about your career, and how you've achieved 00:19:35.869 --> 00:19:41.089 what you have, what advice would you give to a young professional 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:46.819 recently entering the industry about navigating her career in leadership? 00:19:47.591 --> 00:19:49.631 Sunanda: the most important piece of advice I would give is to. 00:19:50.921 --> 00:19:54.521 Recognize the opportunities as they come to you and as they're presented to you, 00:19:54.521 --> 00:19:59.081 and have enough faith in yourself to take advantage of those opportunities to, to 00:19:59.081 --> 00:20:03.791 take them head on, even if you feel like you don't know how to kind of execute 00:20:03.791 --> 00:20:07.911 against them, and I believe that's what I have done in the course of my career. 00:20:07.911 --> 00:20:11.301 So I started, as I said, my career in, in software. 00:20:11.596 --> 00:20:15.736 And then, I was able to make the move to an industry that I love 00:20:15.736 --> 00:20:17.236 being in and love working in. 00:20:17.596 --> 00:20:22.516 And, I was able to achieve that because I did try my best, try my best to be able 00:20:22.516 --> 00:20:25.426 to take advantage of those opportunities as they were presented to me. 00:20:25.959 --> 00:20:26.249 Victoria: Yeah, 00:20:26.446 --> 00:20:29.836 Sunanda: is the, the, the advice that I would give to a, to a 00:20:29.836 --> 00:20:30.916 young professional starting 00:20:30.944 --> 00:20:31.574 Victoria: I love that. 00:20:31.574 --> 00:20:34.574 And I mean, it's a bit of the say yes even when it's really scary. 00:20:34.876 --> 00:20:35.386 Sunanda: Yes. 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:35.999 Victoria: Yeah. 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:36.449 Awesome. 00:20:36.719 --> 00:20:40.469 Well, Sunnie, thank you for taking time to speak with me and to The 00:20:40.469 --> 00:20:41.909 Chemical Show audience today. 00:20:41.909 --> 00:20:43.979 It's been really great to have you here. 00:20:44.616 --> 00:20:45.846 Sunanda: Thank you for having me, Victoria. 00:20:46.649 --> 00:20:49.469 Victoria: And thank Absolutely, and thank you everyone for listening. 00:20:49.469 --> 00:20:51.899 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:20:51.899 --> 00:20:53.579 talk with you again soon.