WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999
I have a request.

00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319
It really helps us get this work done.

00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814
com.

00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

00:00:44.663 --> 00:00:45.503
Welcome back.

00:00:45.603 --> 00:00:48.603
I've got two very interesting people.

00:00:48.663 --> 00:00:50.763
I always have interesting
people obviously, but I've

00:00:50.763 --> 00:00:52.773
still especially interesting.

00:00:52.853 --> 00:00:53.333
Dr.

00:00:53.363 --> 00:00:54.443
Rebecca and Dr.

00:00:54.443 --> 00:00:57.293
Mark Avanco, sorry, Evko.

00:00:57.803 --> 00:00:58.403
Thank you.

00:00:58.483 --> 00:01:05.383
Who run Wilder Wood Niche Niche is a
bit south of Albuquerque in New Mexico.

00:01:05.953 --> 00:01:11.573
And what makes them I think, a little
bit unique in the equine therapy world

00:01:12.263 --> 00:01:20.663
or equine assisted world is that there's
very much an emphasis on female autism and

00:01:20.713 --> 00:01:27.063
as an autism dad myself I've definitely
been aware over the years that many

00:01:27.523 --> 00:01:29.953
women on the spectrum go under the radar.

00:01:30.883 --> 00:01:34.953
And this can be good, this
can be bad, but it is a fact.

00:01:35.463 --> 00:01:39.973
And where it can be good for
a while, it can be bad later.

00:01:40.603 --> 00:01:47.883
Or even if people do learn to
cope without official supports it

00:01:47.883 --> 00:01:49.623
can just be extremely stressful.

00:01:49.623 --> 00:01:52.733
And I think it's it's very interesting
to be looking at a program that

00:01:52.733 --> 00:01:54.923
really holds this front and center.

00:01:55.463 --> 00:01:56.663
So Dr.

00:01:56.663 --> 00:02:01.153
Rebecca, who started this program is on
the spectrum herself and is going to tell

00:02:01.153 --> 00:02:03.163
us a little bit about her experience.

00:02:03.163 --> 00:02:09.003
And her husband Mark, who's a physician
is also Neurodiverse with a DD.

00:02:09.003 --> 00:02:12.593
So together they make
quite a discerning combo.

00:02:13.613 --> 00:02:18.943
For how to approach th this particular
set of conditions and how to bring out the

00:02:18.943 --> 00:02:21.423
best in people who might be struggling.

00:02:21.803 --> 00:02:26.043
And they've, they're developing a rather
unique protocol, which they will explain.

00:02:26.313 --> 00:02:30.453
So guys, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.

00:02:30.563 --> 00:02:35.573
Rebecca, can you tell us a little bit
about your background, your childhood,

00:02:35.633 --> 00:02:41.393
what your experience as a girl and a
young woman was with autism and why

00:02:41.393 --> 00:02:43.373
it's led you to the work that you do?

00:02:48.683 --> 00:02:48.684
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:02:48.683 --> 00:02:49.103
Yeah.

00:02:50.103 --> 00:02:50.613
Sorry.

00:02:50.793 --> 00:02:51.273
Sorry.

00:02:51.423 --> 00:02:54.483
We've got open-ended questions like
that can be quite difficult for me.

00:02:54.483 --> 00:02:54.693
Oh, no

00:02:54.693 --> 00:02:55.083
Rupert Isaacson: doubt.

00:02:56.523 --> 00:02:56.524
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:02:56.523 --> 00:02:59.883
I, I'm gonna let Mark speak for me
just a little bit while I process that.

00:03:00.243 --> 00:03:00.363
Okay.

00:03:00.368 --> 00:03:00.933
If you don't mind.

00:03:01.053 --> 00:03:01.203
Yeah.

00:03:01.203 --> 00:03:01.353
Yeah.

00:03:01.353 --> 00:03:01.863
So

00:03:01.863 --> 00:03:01.864
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:03:01.863 --> 00:03:02.283
whenever.

00:03:03.318 --> 00:03:09.868
So, Rebecca, as Rupert, you and I had
talked a little bit prior to the, the,

00:03:09.928 --> 00:03:17.448
the podcast Rebecca was in Queensland
raised by two adults who really

00:03:17.958 --> 00:03:19.788
did not know anything about autism.

00:03:19.788 --> 00:03:24.198
There was not much known about
autism, especially in females.

00:03:24.708 --> 00:03:31.733
It was not even known about Asperger's
syndrome when she was a, a young child.

00:03:31.733 --> 00:03:37.283
And so much of her experience
as a young child was being

00:03:37.283 --> 00:03:38.223
asked, what's wrong with you?

00:03:39.528 --> 00:03:43.158
And, and this has of course,
been quite impactful.

00:03:43.458 --> 00:03:43.459
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:03:43.458 --> 00:03:45.978
Well, I didn't want to, I
didn't want to do anything.

00:03:46.248 --> 00:03:47.958
I didn't wanna do the social things.

00:03:48.138 --> 00:03:52.908
All I wanted to do was, I was obsessed
with horses and I just wanted a horse.

00:03:52.908 --> 00:03:57.318
And of course we lived in the city in,
at the time when I was very young, and

00:03:57.828 --> 00:03:59.598
we didn't have, couldn't have a horse.

00:03:59.598 --> 00:04:01.398
And I just, that was, that was my world.

00:04:01.908 --> 00:04:06.048
And in fact, it was so much my world that
everyone referred to me as between me

00:04:06.048 --> 00:04:08.058
and my sister, she was the musical one.

00:04:08.148 --> 00:04:09.318
I was the horse one.

00:04:10.188 --> 00:04:14.488
And then I think I was about
11 and my mother got a job up

00:04:14.488 --> 00:04:16.318
in Queensland in the country.

00:04:17.038 --> 00:04:20.388
And you know, I was very excited
about this because it country

00:04:20.388 --> 00:04:21.798
meant that I could have a horse.

00:04:22.268 --> 00:04:24.408
And so that was my only interest.

00:04:24.408 --> 00:04:29.988
So we moved up there and I got, I, I got
my horses and it was, it was wonderful.

00:04:29.988 --> 00:04:32.728
But my, my parents who had divorced.

00:04:33.493 --> 00:04:36.373
It thought me very
strange, very problematic.

00:04:36.953 --> 00:04:38.363
I had no interest in school.

00:04:38.363 --> 00:04:42.963
In fact, I dropped out of school as soon
as I legally could at the age of 15.

00:04:43.623 --> 00:04:45.213
And I just wanted to be with my horse.

00:04:45.213 --> 00:04:49.233
And I would do things like go
riding my horse at two o'clock

00:04:49.233 --> 00:04:54.393
in the morning outside and wander
around the town and on my horse.

00:04:54.393 --> 00:04:56.853
I thought it was a completely
natural thing to do.

00:04:56.853 --> 00:04:59.213
It was very, very atmospheric.

00:04:59.213 --> 00:05:02.573
There was lots of mist and,
and it was just wonderful

00:05:02.573 --> 00:05:04.883
having, I trusted my horses.

00:05:04.883 --> 00:05:06.593
I had a great relationship with them.

00:05:06.593 --> 00:05:08.003
I just got them.

00:05:08.393 --> 00:05:11.303
And they thought that that was
very problematic and why wasn't

00:05:11.303 --> 00:05:13.193
I going to parties and things?

00:05:13.193 --> 00:05:18.103
And anyway they they eventually just
walked out on me, left me in this

00:05:18.193 --> 00:05:21.573
little farm that I was on and at 15.

00:05:21.993 --> 00:05:24.123
And initially I thought, I
thought it was wonderful.

00:05:24.363 --> 00:05:25.653
You know, I was there on my own.

00:05:25.653 --> 00:05:25.863
I.

00:05:26.733 --> 00:05:30.003
You know, there was some bread in
the fridge and whatever, and jam and

00:05:30.183 --> 00:05:31.743
eggs and things from the chickens.

00:05:31.743 --> 00:05:34.233
And I, for a couple of
weeks I just lived there.

00:05:34.233 --> 00:05:36.933
And then we got a knock on, I got
a knock on the door and it was the

00:05:36.933 --> 00:05:39.423
landlord asking where the rent was.

00:05:40.413 --> 00:05:42.263
And I didn't have any money for rent.

00:05:42.263 --> 00:05:45.413
I didn't have any, any parents to go to.

00:05:45.413 --> 00:05:46.853
I had no idea where they were.

00:05:47.243 --> 00:05:51.173
This seems all very strange to some
people, but it seemed quite normal to me.

00:05:51.863 --> 00:05:56.063
And anyway, it was quite traumatic
because I got evicted from that

00:05:56.063 --> 00:06:00.908
place and I had to lose my horses
and, which was devastating to me.

00:06:00.958 --> 00:06:05.468
So there I was without really with
probably a grade nine education,

00:06:05.888 --> 00:06:08.528
you can call it that I didn't
really pay much attention to school.

00:06:09.128 --> 00:06:11.558
And sort of had to survive on my own.

00:06:11.558 --> 00:06:14.678
So I got a job at a gas company.

00:06:15.428 --> 00:06:18.998
And I told, I've told Temple Grandin
this story too, because it's sort of

00:06:18.998 --> 00:06:21.098
similar to things she'd experienced.

00:06:21.148 --> 00:06:25.398
I got a job at a gas company that
provided natural gas to houses, and

00:06:26.058 --> 00:06:30.168
I was stuck out the back organizing
these what they call dockets.

00:06:30.318 --> 00:06:31.608
They were gas receipts.

00:06:31.608 --> 00:06:35.988
When the natural gas was delivered, the
drivers would bring back these, these,

00:06:36.078 --> 00:06:40.548
these dockets or these receipts, and
my job was to organize them and sort

00:06:40.548 --> 00:06:42.498
them into date and customer order.

00:06:42.498 --> 00:06:45.858
And it was considered a
terrible job, but I loved it.

00:06:46.448 --> 00:06:49.598
Not only was I sort of on my own,
I didn't have to interact or do

00:06:49.598 --> 00:06:51.428
the social stuff with people.

00:06:51.798 --> 00:06:55.248
I could sit there and I, I developed
a system to organize all of these

00:06:55.248 --> 00:06:57.048
gas dockets very, very quickly.

00:06:57.588 --> 00:07:02.408
And they were just amazed and, and then
started to sort of promote me into jobs.

00:07:02.408 --> 00:07:03.608
I didn't really want to do.

00:07:03.608 --> 00:07:05.528
I didn't want to do customer facing work.

00:07:05.528 --> 00:07:09.098
I wanted to earn enough money so I
could get my own place and get a horse.

00:07:10.373 --> 00:07:14.483
That didn't really happen until much
later in my life when I realized I'd

00:07:14.483 --> 00:07:18.653
have to go back to school and get an
education so I could get a job that

00:07:18.653 --> 00:07:24.393
would actually pay enough money to, to
support horses which are very expensive.

00:07:25.033 --> 00:07:29.863
And so, you know, long story short, I went
back to school and got my GED equivalent

00:07:29.863 --> 00:07:34.603
and then got a bachelor's degree, and then
I got a master's degree and then a PhD.

00:07:34.603 --> 00:07:40.233
And, and then I met my now husband
and we decided he had horses.

00:07:40.233 --> 00:07:45.333
And so we decided we would start something
up to help autistic people the way

00:07:45.333 --> 00:07:49.953
that my love of horses and my ability
to communicate with horses and his

00:07:49.953 --> 00:07:52.573
also could help other autistic people.

00:07:53.233 --> 00:07:55.563
And and so that's how Wildwood came about.

00:07:55.713 --> 00:07:59.793
And for quite a while, we, we
offered what we called experiences

00:07:59.793 --> 00:08:04.608
to people to experience some of that
interaction between horses and humans.

00:08:06.003 --> 00:08:09.783
And then this realization that kind
of dawns on me after the fact as an

00:08:09.783 --> 00:08:13.743
autistic person, I think, well, I, I'd
better get some sort of credentials

00:08:13.743 --> 00:08:16.233
to be able to do therapy properly.

00:08:16.533 --> 00:08:21.573
So I went back to school a final time
and earned a master's in clinical mental

00:08:21.573 --> 00:08:27.613
health counseling with a focus on rehab
and autism and got that credential.

00:08:27.943 --> 00:08:33.583
And so now we're starting our proper
equine therapy program based on not

00:08:33.583 --> 00:08:37.423
only what I learned in that program
and I learned a lot, but also my

00:08:37.483 --> 00:08:41.953
life and experience as an autistic
person and a horse woman and my

00:08:41.953 --> 00:08:46.453
husband's life experience with horses
and as a neurodivergent person.

00:08:47.233 --> 00:08:49.453
So I think that's probably
it in five minutes

00:08:51.313 --> 00:08:55.103
Rupert Isaacson: with a few, a
few a few glaring chasms in the

00:08:55.163 --> 00:08:56.833
narrative to which we must return.

00:08:57.453 --> 00:08:58.383
So the, the.

00:08:59.388 --> 00:09:03.748
Before I go over to you, mark
obviously to have one's parents

00:09:03.778 --> 00:09:06.388
disappear like that is unusual.

00:09:06.688 --> 00:09:09.208
A couple of immediate
questions come to mind.

00:09:09.328 --> 00:09:13.768
The first one is, did your sister
go with them or did she stay with

00:09:13.768 --> 00:09:16.288
you or did she go her own way?

00:09:17.078 --> 00:09:18.458
I dunno if she was younger or older.

00:09:18.828 --> 00:09:18.918
Well

00:09:18.918 --> 00:09:18.919
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:09:18.918 --> 00:09:23.028
she, she was five years older
and we never got on and she, she

00:09:23.028 --> 00:09:25.008
didn't come to Queensland when,

00:09:25.188 --> 00:09:26.033
Rupert Isaacson: ah, when I went there.

00:09:26.033 --> 00:09:26.993
So she was okay.

00:09:26.993 --> 00:09:28.038
She was already outta the picture?

00:09:28.218 --> 00:09:28.219
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:09:28.218 --> 00:09:29.178
Yes, I she was

00:09:29.178 --> 00:09:30.708
Rupert Isaacson: spectrum
too out of interest?

00:09:31.128 --> 00:09:31.129
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:09:31.128 --> 00:09:32.298
I don't think so.

00:09:32.328 --> 00:09:36.528
She was very much like my mother and my
mother and I were like oil and water.

00:09:37.298 --> 00:09:40.778
So I don't think she was, but I
haven't spoken to my sister for

00:09:42.098 --> 00:09:45.038
I don't know how long, 35 years.

00:09:46.223 --> 00:09:46.493
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:09:47.183 --> 00:09:50.003
And when you say your parents
left, so your parents were

00:09:50.003 --> 00:09:51.293
still together at that point?

00:09:51.483 --> 00:09:51.484
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:09:51.483 --> 00:09:52.533
No, they, they weren't.

00:09:52.533 --> 00:09:54.123
They, they, they were divorced.

00:09:54.123 --> 00:09:57.813
It's very complicated, but I
outlined it in my memoir Joy.

00:09:58.333 --> 00:10:00.403
The story is in, in that memoir.

00:10:00.583 --> 00:10:00.973
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:10:01.483 --> 00:10:05.623
But those listeners who are coming to it
knew which most people will, and I'm sure

00:10:05.623 --> 00:10:07.213
people will want to look at the book.

00:10:07.723 --> 00:10:10.633
Had you then moved up to
Queensland only with your mother?

00:10:10.793 --> 00:10:10.794
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:10:10.793 --> 00:10:11.303
Yes.

00:10:11.303 --> 00:10:11.603
Yes.

00:10:11.603 --> 00:10:12.038
And then my father.

00:10:12.038 --> 00:10:12.413
And was your father in

00:10:12.653 --> 00:10:14.333
Rupert Isaacson: any way
involved at that point, or had

00:10:14.333 --> 00:10:15.443
he disappeared from the picture?

00:10:15.923 --> 00:10:15.924
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:10:15.923 --> 00:10:19.363
Well, my father had disappeared
quite a few times in my life and

00:10:19.363 --> 00:10:21.553
went to Africa actually Rhodesia.

00:10:21.588 --> 00:10:22.008
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:10:22.133 --> 00:10:22.134
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:10:22.133 --> 00:10:25.103
And did some questionable things there.

00:10:25.103 --> 00:10:27.263
I heard stories, but I don't know.

00:10:27.293 --> 00:10:28.883
He was a very charismatic man.

00:10:29.063 --> 00:10:30.443
I think he was autistic.

00:10:31.013 --> 00:10:31.043
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:10:31.463 --> 00:10:31.464
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:10:31.463 --> 00:10:34.193
And then he sort of appeared
back in our life and.

00:10:35.708 --> 00:10:39.818
He ended up, my mother ended up
getting him a job also at what

00:10:39.818 --> 00:10:43.688
became the University of Southern
Queensland in, in Toowoomba.

00:10:44.298 --> 00:10:47.538
So they were both working at
that institution for a while.

00:10:47.538 --> 00:10:48.093
Was your mother an

00:10:48.253 --> 00:10:48.413
Rupert Isaacson: academic?

00:10:48.443 --> 00:10:49.533
Were they, were they academics?

00:10:49.848 --> 00:10:49.849
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:10:49.848 --> 00:10:51.648
Was they were both academics.

00:10:51.678 --> 00:10:52.008
Okay.

00:10:52.448 --> 00:10:52.973
In what field?

00:10:53.318 --> 00:10:53.438
Out

00:10:53.438 --> 00:10:53.888
Rupert Isaacson: of interest,

00:10:54.548 --> 00:10:54.549
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:10:54.548 --> 00:10:56.498
my father was in journalism.

00:10:56.708 --> 00:10:56.888
Mm-hmm.

00:10:57.338 --> 00:10:59.018
And my mother was in theater.

00:10:59.018 --> 00:11:00.068
She was an actress.

00:11:00.068 --> 00:11:03.308
She was actually trained
in London at the Old Vic.

00:11:03.728 --> 00:11:03.758
Rupert Isaacson: Oh,

00:11:03.758 --> 00:11:03.759
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:11:03.758 --> 00:11:03.908
yeah.

00:11:04.278 --> 00:11:07.188
So she was an actress and,
and very much an actress.

00:11:07.188 --> 00:11:09.378
Very much lived her life as an actress.

00:11:10.128 --> 00:11:14.918
And a very complicated, what some
people tell me is a very unusual

00:11:14.918 --> 00:11:17.288
background, but it was normal to me.

00:11:18.038 --> 00:11:22.568
It was a, it was normally
abnormal, I suppose.

00:11:22.568 --> 00:11:22.868
This one.

00:11:22.868 --> 00:11:22.878
Sure.

00:11:24.033 --> 00:11:24.548
Rupert Isaacson: When, when, when?

00:11:25.388 --> 00:11:32.798
So when she, when, so they left this
house that you were in with horses.

00:11:32.798 --> 00:11:34.838
That's a fairly radical thing to do.

00:11:34.838 --> 00:11:38.198
How, how, and you were in your
teens, you, you would think Yes.

00:11:38.378 --> 00:11:41.708
That you, well, well, not, not
protective services or some equivalent

00:11:41.708 --> 00:11:43.238
would've gotten involved at that point,

00:11:43.868 --> 00:11:43.869
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:11:43.868 --> 00:11:43.908
or not?

00:11:43.908 --> 00:11:44.618
Not quite.

00:11:44.618 --> 00:11:45.068
Not quite.

00:11:45.278 --> 00:11:47.588
They were living in separate places.

00:11:47.648 --> 00:11:47.678
Mm.

00:11:47.768 --> 00:11:51.938
I lived with my mother for a
while and then she said to my

00:11:51.938 --> 00:11:53.438
father, I can't handle her.

00:11:53.498 --> 00:11:54.608
You take her.

00:11:55.088 --> 00:12:00.308
So he took me out on a farm and I
lived with him with these horses.

00:12:00.308 --> 00:12:00.398
I see.

00:12:00.458 --> 00:12:07.388
And he was more interested in, in talking
to the, the 19-year-old co-eds at the

00:12:07.388 --> 00:12:12.368
university and having relationships with
those, with them than he was with me.

00:12:12.788 --> 00:12:17.888
And then my mother got very sick and so
she went back, she went back to Sydney to

00:12:17.918 --> 00:12:21.188
get treatment and I stayed with my father.

00:12:21.758 --> 00:12:25.758
And her friends thought I
was a bad influence, so they

00:12:25.758 --> 00:12:27.558
wouldn't tell me where she was.

00:12:28.158 --> 00:12:34.878
So I, I, I lost contact with my mother
that way and then my mother died and then

00:12:34.878 --> 00:12:37.908
my father just was not there one day.

00:12:38.208 --> 00:12:39.828
So that's the background of,

00:12:39.918 --> 00:12:40.878
Rupert Isaacson: do
you know where he went?

00:12:40.913 --> 00:12:42.978
Was there, was there any
further story or was that it?

00:12:43.008 --> 00:12:44.148
There was no further contact.

00:12:44.548 --> 00:12:44.549
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:12:44.548 --> 00:12:49.618
I found out about three years later
that he went off with some student

00:12:49.618 --> 00:12:53.998
that he then married, even though he
wasn't divorced from his fourth wife.

00:12:54.188 --> 00:12:55.628
And then he died.

00:12:55.628 --> 00:12:57.128
So it's,

00:12:57.788 --> 00:12:58.778
Rupert Isaacson: it's the stuff of movies.

00:12:59.528 --> 00:12:59.529
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:12:59.528 --> 00:13:00.818
Yeah, I guess so.

00:13:00.908 --> 00:13:01.058
But

00:13:01.838 --> 00:13:04.148
Rupert Isaacson: the reason I think
it's worth, it's worth knowing the

00:13:04.148 --> 00:13:07.608
details is that I know actually
quite a few people who have a not

00:13:07.608 --> 00:13:11.478
dissimilar story, and I think it can be.

00:13:12.393 --> 00:13:13.743
Both male and female.

00:13:13.743 --> 00:13:17.403
And I think, you know, it's, it's
such a unique experience when somebody

00:13:17.403 --> 00:13:23.463
finds themselves alone at that
young age and sort of makes it work.

00:13:24.103 --> 00:13:30.283
And I think, you know, however difficult
that is at the time, what of course it

00:13:30.283 --> 00:13:34.718
does is it gives that person incredible
resilience and a set of things.

00:13:34.718 --> 00:13:34.878
Well,

00:13:34.878 --> 00:13:34.879
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:13:34.878 --> 00:13:36.943
I, I think, yes, I think so too.

00:13:36.943 --> 00:13:40.033
And I think my, my autism, I
didn't know I was autistic.

00:13:40.033 --> 00:13:41.623
I think it actually saved me.

00:13:41.893 --> 00:13:43.903
I never got into drugs or alcohol.

00:13:43.963 --> 00:13:44.053
Mm-hmm.

00:13:44.083 --> 00:13:45.583
I never got into crime.

00:13:45.583 --> 00:13:46.783
I never did any of that.

00:13:46.863 --> 00:13:51.033
It was almost like very matter of
fact, okay, well I'm on my own.

00:13:51.033 --> 00:13:52.623
I don't have any education.

00:13:52.993 --> 00:13:54.853
I want to get back into horses.

00:13:54.853 --> 00:13:55.753
I need money.

00:13:55.813 --> 00:13:56.803
I better get a job.

00:13:57.958 --> 00:13:59.098
What can I do?

00:13:59.548 --> 00:14:03.658
Not much I can type, but yeah.

00:14:03.748 --> 00:14:07.168
So I went and got a job and it was
just basically that black and white.

00:14:07.648 --> 00:14:09.838
Rupert Isaacson: Was there a
point where you were homeless or

00:14:09.988 --> 00:14:11.128
did you, did you manage to Oh,

00:14:11.128 --> 00:14:11.129
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:14:11.128 --> 00:14:11.908
yes.

00:14:12.448 --> 00:14:13.288
Oh yes, yes.

00:14:13.288 --> 00:14:13.768
And how did you

00:14:13.768 --> 00:14:15.153
Rupert Isaacson: survive
those, that period?

00:14:15.328 --> 00:14:15.808
Well,

00:14:16.018 --> 00:14:16.019
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:14:16.018 --> 00:14:18.928
you know, there were, there were,
there have always been very kind

00:14:18.928 --> 00:14:22.498
people that I've come across in
my life who, for whatever reason

00:14:22.498 --> 00:14:23.818
have been willing to help me.

00:14:23.818 --> 00:14:28.648
So sometimes I would stay, there was
a, a lady at the corner store who I

00:14:28.648 --> 00:14:32.968
got quite friendly with, and she let
me stay at her house for a week or so.

00:14:32.968 --> 00:14:35.608
And then there was some, there
was an elderly couple who

00:14:35.608 --> 00:14:37.228
had actually known my mother.

00:14:37.798 --> 00:14:41.878
And I, I ran into them at a
shopping center and they asked me

00:14:41.878 --> 00:14:44.518
how I was doing and I said, well,
I haven't got anywhere to live.

00:14:45.028 --> 00:14:47.578
And they said, well, you can come
and stay with us for a little while.

00:14:47.578 --> 00:14:51.028
So, you know, I had people like
that who were willing to help

00:14:51.028 --> 00:14:53.988
me and wonderful professors.

00:14:54.553 --> 00:14:58.243
Who recognized or saw something in
me, God knows what, but they saw

00:14:58.243 --> 00:15:00.253
something in me and they encouraged me.

00:15:00.853 --> 00:15:03.853
So they've been wonderful people.

00:15:04.233 --> 00:15:09.033
So even in the midst of all of
this horribleness, there have been

00:15:09.093 --> 00:15:11.133
amazing people who have helped me.

00:15:11.643 --> 00:15:13.863
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think this
is, this is a really interesting

00:15:13.943 --> 00:15:19.803
topic because one of the things that
I realized when my son was diagnosed

00:15:19.803 --> 00:15:24.233
and we were living actually on quite
an isolated ranch in outside of

00:15:24.233 --> 00:15:30.443
Austin, Texas, far from any family,
you know, was the importance of tribe.

00:15:31.373 --> 00:15:35.903
And I grew up with a family that
where there was a lot of extended.

00:15:36.428 --> 00:15:39.878
Always a lot of extended family cousins
and cousins of cousins, and this one once

00:15:39.878 --> 00:15:41.498
removed and that one 12 times removed.

00:15:41.498 --> 00:15:45.968
And, you know, because South African
colonial families, which we were,

00:15:45.968 --> 00:15:49.238
even though I was born and raised in
London, but there was a lot of back

00:15:49.238 --> 00:15:53.768
and forth to Africa and constant
procession of relatives coming through.

00:15:54.338 --> 00:15:59.408
When I had the experience of, you
know, oh gosh, now what am I gonna do?

00:15:59.408 --> 00:16:03.278
I've got this, you know, nonverbal
kid who's just floating away.

00:16:03.498 --> 00:16:04.578
And there is no tribe.

00:16:05.108 --> 00:16:10.568
Fortunately I had a sort of a buddy
relationship with my next door neighbor

00:16:10.808 --> 00:16:14.378
who even though we were massively
on other sides of the political

00:16:14.378 --> 00:16:17.478
spectrum from each other we both like
to drink whiskey and we both like to

00:16:17.478 --> 00:16:19.308
ride and we both like to go hunting.

00:16:19.818 --> 00:16:22.428
And so we would do that
together from time to time.

00:16:22.428 --> 00:16:26.508
He'd pull my leg about being a hippie
and I'd pull his leg about being you

00:16:26.508 --> 00:16:29.868
know, whatever names I could come
up with for his conservativeness.

00:16:30.078 --> 00:16:33.648
And we actually quite enjoyed that
interaction so that when my son

00:16:33.948 --> 00:16:39.678
went through the fence and made a
relationship with his horse, instead

00:16:39.678 --> 00:16:43.368
of saying, get off my property, or,
sorry, you can't interact with this

00:16:43.368 --> 00:16:47.298
horse because he might fall off and,
you know, you might sue me or whatever.

00:16:47.868 --> 00:16:50.358
There was this immediate like, yeah,
here's the key to the saddle room.

00:16:50.448 --> 00:16:54.738
And it seems like you had similar
relationships with people.

00:16:55.228 --> 00:17:01.018
And I wonder if this is something you talk
about in your programs, the importance of

00:17:01.018 --> 00:17:06.268
community, the importance of relationship,
the importance of tribe and chosen family,

00:17:06.268 --> 00:17:13.608
you know, even if your blood family isn't,
you know, quite meeting requirements.

00:17:13.968 --> 00:17:18.708
Is this something which, 'cause it's
there in your story, you, you, you

00:17:19.188 --> 00:17:20.808
emphasize at all in your programs.

00:17:21.963 --> 00:17:21.964
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:17:21.963 --> 00:17:23.103
Oh, yes, yes.

00:17:23.103 --> 00:17:27.863
For autistic women, which is
our focus we very much emphasize

00:17:27.893 --> 00:17:32.763
what tribe is a good word the
collective of other autistic women.

00:17:33.073 --> 00:17:38.473
We tend to get each other in the same way
that autistic people and neurodivergent

00:17:38.473 --> 00:17:40.303
people can connect with horses.

00:17:40.843 --> 00:17:43.003
We tend to understand each other better.

00:17:43.513 --> 00:17:47.143
It's very, very important to find
that sense of community and sense of

00:17:47.143 --> 00:17:52.213
belonging, much like it's, it it is for
the horses in, in their own horse world.

00:17:52.423 --> 00:17:52.693
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:17:52.723 --> 00:17:52.724
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:17:52.723 --> 00:17:52.758
I would

00:17:52.758 --> 00:17:52.878
Rupert Isaacson: agree.

00:17:53.258 --> 00:17:53.259
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:17:53.258 --> 00:17:56.953
You know, I think one of the worst
things that I can think of, well, apart

00:17:56.953 --> 00:18:01.703
from frank abuse to horses, which is
just horrific, is you know, driving

00:18:01.703 --> 00:18:05.963
past and seeing a horse standing on its
own without any other horses with it,

00:18:06.293 --> 00:18:08.303
without any other horses to interact with.

00:18:08.963 --> 00:18:12.263
I, I, I think they need
each other and I think that.

00:18:12.848 --> 00:18:16.028
People need each other, and
particularly autistic people need

00:18:16.028 --> 00:18:20.378
to find each other and connect with
each other because we get each other.

00:18:21.798 --> 00:18:23.238
Rupert Isaacson: I would
wholeheartedly agree.

00:18:23.338 --> 00:18:27.298
Now there's one last gap in the
narrative before I turn to you, mark.

00:18:27.688 --> 00:18:32.638
It's rather a long way geographically
from Queensland to New Mexico.

00:18:32.638 --> 00:18:38.148
So, the meeting of Mark and you guys
deciding to put this place together,

00:18:38.928 --> 00:18:41.628
obviously there's a backstory there.

00:18:41.868 --> 00:18:45.378
How did you end up in the USA and
how did you guys end up meeting?

00:18:45.663 --> 00:18:45.953
Well,

00:18:47.388 --> 00:18:47.389
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:18:47.388 --> 00:18:50.978
as briefly as possible one
of the ways that I survived

00:18:50.978 --> 00:18:52.568
was when I was quite young.

00:18:52.748 --> 00:18:55.298
I thought it might be quite
a good idea to get married.

00:18:55.788 --> 00:18:58.548
I thought it would be a way
to, you know, find security.

00:18:58.548 --> 00:19:00.408
And so I got married fairly young.

00:19:00.843 --> 00:19:03.093
It was a dreadful mismatch.

00:19:03.183 --> 00:19:08.283
He was a very good man, but he was into
car clubs and barbecues and I wasn't,

00:19:08.883 --> 00:19:14.913
and when I went back to school, we
kind of separated and just realized

00:19:14.913 --> 00:19:17.613
it was just hopeless at the time.

00:19:17.613 --> 00:19:21.633
When I got my first it was getting my
first degree, the internet was brand new.

00:19:22.113 --> 00:19:27.533
And being a cocky little undergraduate,
I had read an article by a professor

00:19:27.533 --> 00:19:32.663
in the US in Texas that I disagreed
with, and at the bottom there was an

00:19:32.663 --> 00:19:36.383
email address and I thought, oh, I'm
going to write to this person and

00:19:36.383 --> 00:19:40.803
tell him just why I disagreed with his
article using this thing called email.

00:19:41.043 --> 00:19:45.633
And so I did, and he wrote back
and that started a, a relationship.

00:19:45.633 --> 00:19:50.943
So I ended up flying over to the
United States on a student visa.

00:19:51.693 --> 00:19:56.303
I finished my baccalaureate degree
here and I married this professor.

00:19:56.913 --> 00:19:59.613
That relationship didn't work out either.

00:19:59.613 --> 00:20:06.243
And I divorced and I ended up I had my
PhD so I was doing various work around

00:20:06.243 --> 00:20:11.903
the country and, and not in a relationship
convinced that I would never find anybody

00:20:11.903 --> 00:20:13.583
who would be able to put up with me.

00:20:14.213 --> 00:20:18.403
And I was seeing a psychologist at the
time and the psychologist suggested,

00:20:18.403 --> 00:20:22.303
well, you know, why don't you just
give it one more go at finding someone?

00:20:22.303 --> 00:20:23.833
I said, oh, it's, no, it's no point.

00:20:24.133 --> 00:20:25.723
There's nobody who'll ever put up with me.

00:20:26.263 --> 00:20:31.333
And so, you know, I went onto one
of those, I think it was match and

00:20:31.383 --> 00:20:36.453
I put in my details and this picture
came up of this very attractive man

00:20:36.693 --> 00:20:42.873
who was standing there with this jaw
dropping gorgeous Arabian trachea horse

00:20:43.743 --> 00:20:46.118
and just looking, yeah, yeah, right.

00:20:46.228 --> 00:20:47.943
Just looking into his eyes.

00:20:47.943 --> 00:20:51.093
And I said, any man who
looks at a horse like that.

00:20:51.843 --> 00:20:53.043
Is worth talking to.

00:20:53.043 --> 00:20:53.133
Mm-hmm.

00:20:53.823 --> 00:20:57.043
And you know, of course at the time
people had told me, well, you know,

00:20:57.043 --> 00:21:00.673
you've got to create these profiles
to make people interested in you.

00:21:00.673 --> 00:21:05.263
And, and I, and I was driving a Porsche at
the time because, hey, if I couldn't have

00:21:05.263 --> 00:21:07.393
a horse, I could at least have horsepower.

00:21:08.113 --> 00:21:11.713
So I had this picture of me sort
of leaning over this Porsche,

00:21:11.983 --> 00:21:13.843
and I used it as my profile.

00:21:13.843 --> 00:21:16.123
And so I contacted this guy.

00:21:16.903 --> 00:21:20.383
He looked, he looked, he looks
at this profile and he thinks,

00:21:20.593 --> 00:21:23.443
lady, you've got the wrong guy.

00:21:24.103 --> 00:21:26.803
I don't care if I, I walk through,

00:21:27.763 --> 00:21:28.723
Rupert Isaacson: you could
buy for that Porsche.

00:21:29.268 --> 00:21:29.269
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:21:29.268 --> 00:21:30.373
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:21:30.603 --> 00:21:34.873
You know, so, he sort of didn't,
you, he kind of wrote back and

00:21:34.873 --> 00:21:38.953
said, I don't think, maybe, I don't
think I'm the right guy for you.

00:21:38.983 --> 00:21:40.413
And, and yeah.

00:21:40.418 --> 00:21:43.073
And, and then, i, you know,
I, I didn't really think any

00:21:43.073 --> 00:21:44.453
of, anything of it really.

00:21:44.453 --> 00:21:46.193
I just sort of kept you as my favorite.

00:21:46.193 --> 00:21:48.023
And then you can finish the story.

00:21:48.263 --> 00:21:48.264
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:21:48.263 --> 00:21:53.543
Well, so in that story I looked
at this woman, beautiful woman

00:21:54.023 --> 00:21:58.883
over the Porsche, and I thought
exactly what she just mentioned.

00:21:59.453 --> 00:22:02.993
And I said, you know, your high
heels are not gonna work here.

00:22:03.743 --> 00:22:08.863
You're we are, it just goes through mud
and, and you're gonna be cleaning poop.

00:22:08.868 --> 00:22:10.358
You've got sand in your bed from

00:22:10.358 --> 00:22:10.359
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:22:10.358 --> 00:22:10.718
the p

00:22:11.568 --> 00:22:11.569
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:22:11.568 --> 00:22:14.593
we've got three dogs, large
dogs, and they're on the bed

00:22:14.593 --> 00:22:15.793
and they're not getting off.

00:22:16.093 --> 00:22:21.523
And this was my profile because I had
been through a divorce and that's what

00:22:21.523 --> 00:22:28.093
brought me to this very property with
Sayed and ritzy, Tennessee Walker.

00:22:28.753 --> 00:22:31.323
And I just I could not.

00:22:31.908 --> 00:22:37.608
Fathom that I would be together with
someone, but my friends said, why

00:22:37.608 --> 00:22:41.928
don't you just try this after about
10 years of being completely single?

00:22:42.678 --> 00:22:44.028
And I, no.

00:22:44.238 --> 00:22:50.358
So that's when I said, no, no,
no, you're not the one for me.

00:22:51.228 --> 00:22:58.508
And then to kind of turn the knife,
about two weeks later, I saw her thing

00:22:58.508 --> 00:23:04.508
come up again on Matt and ISI said, am
I still your favorite question Mark?

00:23:04.508 --> 00:23:08.888
And sh she emailed back on
Matt and said, will you?

00:23:08.888 --> 00:23:09.158
Sure?

00:23:09.218 --> 00:23:09.848
Yes.

00:23:11.918 --> 00:23:11.919
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:23:11.918 --> 00:23:15.278
And we sort of started talking from
there, and that's how that happened.

00:23:15.488 --> 00:23:15.758
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.

00:23:18.188 --> 00:23:19.028
That's a great story.

00:23:19.028 --> 00:23:19.538
Thank you.

00:23:19.748 --> 00:23:20.468
Mark?

00:23:21.128 --> 00:23:21.368
Yes.

00:23:21.578 --> 00:23:24.038
A DD also neurodivergent.

00:23:24.668 --> 00:23:29.228
Can I have your bio leading up to this
point too, because I think it Sure.

00:23:29.438 --> 00:23:29.708
Yeah.

00:23:29.708 --> 00:23:33.578
It, it's, it's, it's unusual and
valuable to find a program that's

00:23:33.758 --> 00:23:36.308
run by two neurodivergent people.

00:23:36.918 --> 00:23:37.368
So yeah.

00:23:37.668 --> 00:23:39.198
What's your story, what's your perspective

00:23:40.248 --> 00:23:40.249
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:23:40.248 --> 00:23:44.898
much in contrast to Rebecca's
story in her early life?

00:23:45.078 --> 00:23:51.228
I was raised by two parents
who were together for, until

00:23:51.228 --> 00:23:52.908
they both died, essentially.

00:23:53.808 --> 00:23:57.188
And large family or eight siblings.

00:23:57.728 --> 00:23:58.088
Wow.

00:23:58.148 --> 00:23:59.318
And where was that?

00:23:59.318 --> 00:23:59.558
Where,

00:23:59.558 --> 00:24:00.583
Rupert Isaacson: where
in the US was, right?

00:24:00.583 --> 00:24:00.783
In

00:24:00.783 --> 00:24:00.784
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:24:00.783 --> 00:24:01.418
New Mexico?

00:24:01.478 --> 00:24:01.658
Yeah.

00:24:01.658 --> 00:24:01.898
Okay.

00:24:01.898 --> 00:24:03.488
In New Mexico, in Albuquerque.

00:24:04.448 --> 00:24:12.308
And I had a relatively, what I
would consider to be a relatively

00:24:12.308 --> 00:24:16.388
stable and quote, normal life.

00:24:16.658 --> 00:24:19.568
Went to school, finished high school.

00:24:20.183 --> 00:24:25.363
Straight to college, straight to medical
school almost straight to medical school.

00:24:25.363 --> 00:24:28.153
Did two years of research before that.

00:24:28.573 --> 00:24:35.263
Really never was com never
really rode horses until I

00:24:35.263 --> 00:24:37.303
got back from medical school.

00:24:37.663 --> 00:24:38.443
Didn't have the money.

00:24:39.163 --> 00:24:41.143
Did you always want to, had
that always been a desire?

00:24:41.593 --> 00:24:44.713
Interestingly enough, no.

00:24:45.283 --> 00:24:51.723
I, I was a camp counselor at one
of the ca the A-Y-M-C-A camp close

00:24:51.723 --> 00:24:53.943
by Albuquerque, about 70 miles.

00:24:54.153 --> 00:25:00.503
So it's 80 kilometers away
from from Albuquerque.

00:25:00.803 --> 00:25:05.863
And we would take the campers
out with the rancher who

00:25:05.923 --> 00:25:07.993
donated his time and his horses.

00:25:07.993 --> 00:25:13.423
And then I'd get to ride with the other
counselors through this beautiful meadow.

00:25:13.483 --> 00:25:17.383
It was huge, actually a volcano crater.

00:25:17.923 --> 00:25:18.043
Mm-hmm.

00:25:18.043 --> 00:25:19.753
Up in the Hamus mountains.

00:25:20.413 --> 00:25:22.133
He allowed us to do that.

00:25:22.133 --> 00:25:26.003
But that was, that was
really my horse experience.

00:25:26.753 --> 00:25:31.493
My mother rode horses and she
did dressage and she actually

00:25:31.493 --> 00:25:35.233
had a a Tennessee walker as well.

00:25:35.893 --> 00:25:44.323
And so it was interesting that when I
returned from medical school, I met my

00:25:44.323 --> 00:25:48.763
first wife and she came with a horse.

00:25:49.663 --> 00:25:54.703
And the horse that was born in the
stall next to hers is Saeed the

00:25:54.703 --> 00:25:56.713
Trachea Arab that Rebecca mentioned.

00:25:58.033 --> 00:26:02.113
I figured if I was gonna.

00:26:03.043 --> 00:26:04.723
Learn how to ride a horse.

00:26:04.723 --> 00:26:10.423
I wanted to learn how to ride a horse
well and not need to do what many

00:26:10.423 --> 00:26:17.273
western riders do around here, which
is muscle the horse around, and use

00:26:17.273 --> 00:26:25.643
the bit as a weapon rather than as a,
as a kind and gentle way to ask the

00:26:25.643 --> 00:26:28.463
horse to follow you in that dance.

00:26:29.843 --> 00:26:36.233
So I started taking dressage
lessons with a green 2-year-old

00:26:36.233 --> 00:26:39.503
horse who was extremely athletic,

00:26:40.193 --> 00:26:40.194
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:26:40.193 --> 00:26:41.033
very smart,

00:26:41.033 --> 00:26:41.034
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:26:41.033 --> 00:26:42.083
and very smart.

00:26:43.073 --> 00:26:45.893
And I'm a green rider on a green horse.

00:26:46.643 --> 00:26:47.963
It's not the best combination.

00:26:47.993 --> 00:26:48.383
Quite a way

00:26:48.383 --> 00:26:48.803
Rupert Isaacson: to learn,

00:26:48.983 --> 00:26:48.984
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:26:48.983 --> 00:26:50.453
quite a way to learn green.

00:26:50.453 --> 00:26:51.503
Green equals black and blue.

00:26:51.593 --> 00:26:54.863
Yeah, that's, that is right.

00:26:54.953 --> 00:27:03.513
And so we together went through three
or four instructors before we met

00:27:03.893 --> 00:27:10.583
James, our, our current James Reman,
who is our now Ecol Dete instructor.

00:27:11.383 --> 00:27:19.613
And he took me and sayed up to
the fourth level of dressage and

00:27:19.613 --> 00:27:21.353
we're very grateful for that.

00:27:23.573 --> 00:27:28.403
It's interesting though, because one of
the things I learned about dressage is

00:27:28.403 --> 00:27:35.643
that it isn't necessarily, especially
in the competitive aspects of dressage,

00:27:36.573 --> 00:27:40.233
not necessarily the kindest to the

00:27:40.233 --> 00:27:40.923
Rupert Isaacson: horse.

00:27:41.163 --> 00:27:41.343
Sure.

00:27:41.343 --> 00:27:45.213
Well, anything done competitively
becomes a caricature of itself.

00:27:45.273 --> 00:27:45.423
Yeah.

00:27:45.828 --> 00:27:45.829
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:27:45.828 --> 00:27:46.458
Yes.

00:27:46.458 --> 00:27:50.508
And that's, I, I did not realize
that until we started showing.

00:27:50.508 --> 00:27:52.278
And James is like, is this what?

00:27:53.838 --> 00:28:00.738
And he knew at that time that that
was really not what he wanted to do.

00:28:00.918 --> 00:28:06.708
He wanted to do classical, true classical
dressage, but could not find it.

00:28:07.858 --> 00:28:08.458
Here.

00:28:08.518 --> 00:28:18.298
And when he met and, and, and learned
about ate immediately he switched

00:28:18.388 --> 00:28:24.168
and is now a a trainer, one of only
a handful in the United States.

00:28:24.978 --> 00:28:29.748
And luckily he is right next
door to us here, down in Peralta.

00:28:31.398 --> 00:28:34.398
So that's my horse experience.

00:28:34.788 --> 00:28:35.298
We, I.

00:28:36.048 --> 00:28:38.988
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, let's talk
a bit about your a DD and also

00:28:38.988 --> 00:28:43.638
what kind of physician are you
and how does that I'm a, I'm a gp.

00:28:43.848 --> 00:28:43.849
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:28:43.848 --> 00:28:48.928
I, I have done a, a varied
amount of activities as a gp.

00:28:48.928 --> 00:28:51.508
It's interesting how times have changed.

00:28:51.998 --> 00:29:01.048
I, early in my career did ER and urgent
care and ICU work simply because of

00:29:01.438 --> 00:29:06.928
the way we were able to do things
then, and the liability and all

00:29:06.928 --> 00:29:08.758
of those things that have changed.

00:29:09.328 --> 00:29:13.258
So I have a lot of experience in a
lot of different areas of medicine

00:29:13.558 --> 00:29:13.708
Rupert Isaacson: do too.

00:29:15.128 --> 00:29:15.129
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:29:15.128 --> 00:29:20.448
My training as an osteopathic
physician here in America actually

00:29:20.448 --> 00:29:23.328
gives me a different view of the.

00:29:24.093 --> 00:29:27.483
Human condition than many
allopathic physicians.

00:29:27.483 --> 00:29:34.053
And I, I chose osteopathy over the
allopathic profession because I felt it

00:29:34.053 --> 00:29:40.503
was a much more comprehensive way to look
at the human condition and, and medicine.

00:29:40.503 --> 00:29:45.513
And so that's, that's why
I'm a do and, and not an md.

00:29:46.413 --> 00:29:46.893
Got it.

00:29:47.013 --> 00:29:49.053
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that brings, I
think, quite a holistic perspective.

00:29:49.293 --> 00:29:50.553
Tell us a bit about your a DD.

00:29:50.553 --> 00:29:52.593
When, when did you realize you were a DD?

00:29:52.683 --> 00:29:54.063
How has it impacted your life?

00:29:54.063 --> 00:29:56.073
Do you feel, do you, do you
consider it a superpower?

00:29:56.073 --> 00:29:57.943
Do you consider it disorder?

00:29:57.973 --> 00:29:58.403
What, what's your take?

00:30:00.053 --> 00:30:00.054
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:30:00.053 --> 00:30:01.763
Like any, okay.

00:30:01.763 --> 00:30:05.723
So the first question is how do I,
how did I learn that I was a DD?

00:30:06.173 --> 00:30:11.513
Well, A DHD it was actually, I was
probably, and from the time I was

00:30:11.603 --> 00:30:18.873
able to remember two, three years old
my mother would frequently ask me.

00:30:19.533 --> 00:30:27.753
Tell me, sit down and be still,
sit down there and be still.

00:30:28.593 --> 00:30:31.513
And did that become the litany
for your life after that?

00:30:31.643 --> 00:30:34.203
That was kind of the litany for my life.

00:30:34.203 --> 00:30:38.913
And I'm, I'm sitting here right now
as still as I can be, but my legs are

00:30:39.003 --> 00:30:41.193
going, having to sit on your hands.

00:30:41.198 --> 00:30:41.398
Yeah.

00:30:41.733 --> 00:30:42.243
Yeah.

00:30:42.393 --> 00:30:50.583
And so that was how I learned to do
the compensatory skills that I needed

00:30:51.303 --> 00:30:57.393
to calm, actually calm my mind enough
that I could take in information and

00:30:57.393 --> 00:31:05.853
be able to, without medications do what
I did academically and scholastically

00:31:06.353 --> 00:31:09.288
and, and be able to take things in.

00:31:09.288 --> 00:31:11.133
But please don't ask me.

00:31:11.748 --> 00:31:17.358
To remember something five
minutes later, because I won't.

00:31:17.358 --> 00:31:22.328
If you and I are talking and
we have would you go get this?

00:31:22.358 --> 00:31:24.008
Okay, I'll do it in just a minute.

00:31:25.248 --> 00:31:26.178
It doesn't get done.

00:31:27.468 --> 00:31:28.908
Mark, take your pills this month.

00:31:28.938 --> 00:31:29.958
Did you take your pills?

00:31:30.018 --> 00:31:31.308
I think I did.

00:31:31.308 --> 00:31:31.758
Here.

00:31:31.968 --> 00:31:32.598
Here's your pill.

00:31:32.958 --> 00:31:33.793
You put 'em out because

00:31:33.833 --> 00:31:33.834
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:31:33.833 --> 00:31:34.578
I put 'em out for you.

00:31:34.668 --> 00:31:34.669
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:31:34.668 --> 00:31:34.938
Right?

00:31:35.568 --> 00:31:36.918
That's the only way it'll happen.

00:31:36.978 --> 00:31:42.558
I mean, I may remember this evening
because I walked by the cabinet where, you

00:31:42.558 --> 00:31:48.778
know, the pills are, but the story that
I would tell my clients and my patients

00:31:49.598 --> 00:31:57.398
to help them diagnose themselves as a DD
is my story about very common in my life.

00:31:58.898 --> 00:32:01.238
I need to rake the leaves out in the yard.

00:32:01.238 --> 00:32:05.948
So I'm on my way to the garage to get the
rake, and I pass by the hose that hasn't

00:32:05.948 --> 00:32:07.568
been wound up for three or four days.

00:32:07.568 --> 00:32:13.818
So I start winding the hose up and then I
note, I remember that the, the spray thing

00:32:13.818 --> 00:32:16.558
on the end of the hose is not is broken.

00:32:16.558 --> 00:32:19.183
So I need to go to the,
the, the Home Depot.

00:32:19.288 --> 00:32:22.288
Home Depot to get another one of those.

00:32:22.288 --> 00:32:26.518
So I'm on my go to Home Depot and
I get four other items and I'm on

00:32:26.518 --> 00:32:31.828
my way back and think I didn't get
the thing for the hose and, but

00:32:31.948 --> 00:32:34.558
what was I originally going to do?

00:32:35.278 --> 00:32:35.548
You?

00:32:36.853 --> 00:32:37.143
Yeah.

00:32:37.708 --> 00:32:38.218
Yeah.

00:32:38.458 --> 00:32:41.068
And so this is my life.

00:32:41.458 --> 00:32:42.688
I'll put a tool down.

00:32:43.888 --> 00:32:44.518
And

00:32:47.368 --> 00:32:48.058
where did it go?

00:32:48.703 --> 00:32:48.704
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:32:48.703 --> 00:32:51.973
Whereas I, in contrast, would
have the compensatory strategy

00:32:51.973 --> 00:32:53.863
of using a mole skin to plan.

00:32:54.163 --> 00:32:56.623
Tomorrow I'm going to rake
the leaves at nine o'clock.

00:32:56.713 --> 00:32:58.903
So at nine o'clock I go
out to rake the leaves.

00:32:58.963 --> 00:33:00.313
Don't you dare disturb me.

00:33:00.343 --> 00:33:01.543
Don't change my plans.

00:33:01.543 --> 00:33:02.713
Don't do anything differently.

00:33:02.893 --> 00:33:05.863
I'm raking leaves from nine to nine 50

00:33:07.393 --> 00:33:07.394
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:33:07.393 --> 00:33:13.243
and I'm, I'm very good as long
as there is someone in practice.

00:33:13.243 --> 00:33:17.373
For instance, my MAs, my front
office people would just say,

00:33:17.373 --> 00:33:19.113
doctor, go into room six.

00:33:19.623 --> 00:33:20.043
Okay.

00:33:21.603 --> 00:33:26.073
That I could do and that I could
focus on my client, my patient,

00:33:27.243 --> 00:33:31.473
but outside of that room going
in the halls and out distraction.

00:33:32.313 --> 00:33:32.314
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:33:32.313 --> 00:33:34.683
But I, I'd like to jump in here if I may.

00:33:34.683 --> 00:33:37.713
You talked about compensator
strategies, and I think that

00:33:37.713 --> 00:33:39.573
was incredibly important to me.

00:33:39.843 --> 00:33:41.703
My experiences may have been.

00:33:42.273 --> 00:33:46.173
Unusual and disturbing and upsetting,
but it taught me a whole lot.

00:33:46.543 --> 00:33:52.273
I had to be, I had to take care of myself
because there was nobody else to do it.

00:33:52.513 --> 00:33:55.453
I had to develop strategies to do that.

00:33:55.543 --> 00:33:58.363
And Temple Gran talks
about this a lot too.

00:33:58.363 --> 00:34:03.523
She expresses concern about autistic
kids not being given enough, you

00:34:03.523 --> 00:34:07.543
know, responsibility to be able to
develop these alternative strategies.

00:34:07.543 --> 00:34:07.603
Yeah.

00:34:08.053 --> 00:34:13.813
So I developed very specific ways of
doing things that I maintain to this day,

00:34:14.143 --> 00:34:20.843
very complicated executive functioning
setups that work for me that I developed

00:34:20.843 --> 00:34:24.803
that people look at and say, oh my God,
look at what you do to get this done.

00:34:24.983 --> 00:34:29.093
But it gets things done and it,
it taught me that I had to do it.

00:34:29.093 --> 00:34:33.383
So I think that's something also
that we, we, you know, emphasize

00:34:33.383 --> 00:34:36.653
if, if a client comes in contact
with a horse, if they're afraid.

00:34:37.013 --> 00:34:38.723
They don't really know what to do.

00:34:38.993 --> 00:34:41.213
I'm not gonna stand there
and tell them how to do it.

00:34:41.363 --> 00:34:47.003
We will just stand in silence and
wait until there is some form of

00:34:47.003 --> 00:34:52.353
communication, something that happens
which we can then leverage and

00:34:52.353 --> 00:34:54.723
say, did you notice this happening?

00:34:55.413 --> 00:34:58.983
You can work out how to
do this on your own terms.

00:34:59.343 --> 00:35:04.143
And I think that that's a really important
phrase for autistic people learning to

00:35:04.143 --> 00:35:10.203
do things, but on your own terms, rather
than trying to get to some non-autistic

00:35:10.203 --> 00:35:12.093
ideal you'll never reach anyway.

00:35:14.343 --> 00:35:16.473
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I, I
think I'm in agreement there.

00:35:16.553 --> 00:35:20.033
With all our programs, you know, it, it's
predicated on something called Follow the

00:35:20.033 --> 00:35:26.063
Child and you could also replace the word
child with adult or yourself or whatever.

00:35:26.063 --> 00:35:29.903
But the idea is intrinsic motivation
has to be, has to be the way.

00:35:30.003 --> 00:35:31.983
No amount of good boys gold stars.

00:35:33.363 --> 00:35:37.113
Or the other kind of motivation,
which is course negative.

00:35:37.263 --> 00:35:38.133
We'll get the job done.

00:35:38.323 --> 00:35:41.713
And it was Temple Grandin actually
who schooled me very early, and that's

00:35:41.713 --> 00:35:46.033
the Rupert, you've got to follow the
child physically, emotionally, which

00:35:46.033 --> 00:35:49.293
means sensorily and and intellectually
through what they're interested in.

00:35:49.503 --> 00:35:51.453
And it made so much sense to me.

00:35:51.453 --> 00:35:52.473
They was like, yep, absolutely.

00:35:52.503 --> 00:35:52.683
Mm-hmm.

00:35:52.683 --> 00:35:53.013
Got it.

00:35:53.493 --> 00:35:54.393
And I just did that.

00:35:54.423 --> 00:35:58.383
And of course, everything that we
do flows from there, so I'm, I'm

00:35:58.383 --> 00:35:59.493
right with you there, you know.

00:35:59.603 --> 00:36:04.563
Quickly before we, I want to move on to
your programs, but mark, just quickly

00:36:04.563 --> 00:36:08.943
with you, when, when were you, were you
diagnosed with a DHD at a certain point?

00:36:09.093 --> 00:36:12.603
And then you mentioned medications,
but you also mentioned no medications.

00:36:13.203 --> 00:36:16.893
I presume that as a boy, if you
had been a boy now at school, you'd

00:36:16.893 --> 00:36:18.153
have been medicated, like boom.

00:36:18.753 --> 00:36:22.233
Did you then come to be medicated
later or did you manage to avoid

00:36:22.233 --> 00:36:23.418
medications or, you know what, no.

00:36:24.243 --> 00:36:24.603
No,

00:36:24.603 --> 00:36:24.604
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:36:24.603 --> 00:36:26.583
I've, I've never been medicated.

00:36:26.743 --> 00:36:26.893
But the

00:36:26.893 --> 00:36:27.343
Rupert Isaacson: pills you

00:36:27.343 --> 00:36:27.344
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:36:27.343 --> 00:36:28.903
were referring to are not a DD pills?

00:36:29.473 --> 00:36:30.163
No, no.

00:36:30.163 --> 00:36:31.213
I, oh, no,

00:36:31.303 --> 00:36:31.304
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:36:31.303 --> 00:36:31.633
they're not.

00:36:31.638 --> 00:36:31.858
No,

00:36:32.443 --> 00:36:32.444
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:36:32.443 --> 00:36:33.193
it's interesting.

00:36:33.243 --> 00:36:33.244
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:36:33.243 --> 00:36:35.853
He's racked up his body
through falling off horses so

00:36:36.243 --> 00:36:36.244
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:36:36.243 --> 00:36:38.643
well, and motorcycles and, yeah.

00:36:38.928 --> 00:36:38.929
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:36:38.928 --> 00:36:39.933
No, no, no, no.

00:36:39.933 --> 00:36:39.993
I'm,

00:36:40.593 --> 00:36:40.594
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:36:40.593 --> 00:36:40.983
I'm kidding.

00:36:41.163 --> 00:36:41.523
I'm kidding.

00:36:41.583 --> 00:36:41.823
Yeah.

00:36:42.273 --> 00:36:46.853
But so, the answer is I've
never been medicated for A DHD.

00:36:46.883 --> 00:36:46.973
Yeah.

00:36:47.083 --> 00:36:53.473
I the, the support that I got and,
and just being accepted, interestingly

00:36:53.473 --> 00:37:00.453
enough by family and, and I, I'm
sure I had friends in, in school,

00:37:00.753 --> 00:37:07.903
high school who were also, and
we, we just kind of were there.

00:37:08.323 --> 00:37:13.333
It's interesting because it, there was
much more of a, it is a little weird, but.

00:37:16.048 --> 00:37:16.948
He's okay.

00:37:16.953 --> 00:37:17.013
Yeah.

00:37:17.038 --> 00:37:18.538
He's not hurting anything.

00:37:19.048 --> 00:37:25.538
And instead of this confirmation
we have to conform and have this

00:37:25.538 --> 00:37:30.038
child conform to the way things are.

00:37:30.738 --> 00:37:34.188
That is, that seems to be
going on a lot more these days.

00:37:34.188 --> 00:37:36.108
So here's the medication.

00:37:37.128 --> 00:37:44.568
Medications can be very effective tools
for all kinds of different conditions.

00:37:44.568 --> 00:37:51.338
I mean, I am on high blood pressure
pills now that I was got long COVID, I

00:37:51.338 --> 00:37:57.138
was stricken with COVID from the, when
I was working at urgent care early on

00:37:57.138 --> 00:37:59.878
in the, in the COVID circumstances.

00:38:00.823 --> 00:38:05.533
I got COVID before there was even testing
for it, and ended up in the emergency room

00:38:05.773 --> 00:38:13.903
myself with blood pressures in the, in
the two hundreds, over hundreds, whereas

00:38:13.933 --> 00:38:20.743
a week before I was on zero medications,
zero except for some ibuprofen.

00:38:21.853 --> 00:38:22.063
Got it.

00:38:22.113 --> 00:38:25.383
So, those are the medications I'm on.

00:38:26.643 --> 00:38:27.303
And when did you get

00:38:27.303 --> 00:38:28.143
Rupert Isaacson: your diagnosis?

00:38:29.283 --> 00:38:30.363
I'm self-diagnosed.

00:38:30.513 --> 00:38:30.873
Okay.

00:38:32.073 --> 00:38:34.893
And similarly, Rebecca, were
you self-diagnosed or did

00:38:34.893 --> 00:38:36.123
someone give you a diagnosis?

00:38:37.128 --> 00:38:39.968
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:38:39.968 --> 00:38:43.888
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:38:43.958 --> 00:38:48.228
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:38:48.288 --> 00:38:53.868
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:38:54.463 --> 00:39:00.773
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:39:00.773 --> 00:39:03.443
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:39:03.443 --> 00:39:06.323
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:39:06.663 --> 00:39:09.933
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:39:10.428 --> 00:39:15.378
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:39:16.038 --> 00:39:17.478
It works incredibly well.

00:39:17.478 --> 00:39:19.198
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:39:19.908 --> 00:39:20.658
Check it out.

00:39:21.338 --> 00:39:25.488
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:39:25.498 --> 00:39:28.868
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:39:28.868 --> 00:39:30.618
applied in schools, in homes.

00:39:30.818 --> 00:39:35.808
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:39:35.808 --> 00:39:37.348
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:39:38.703 --> 00:39:39.983
when they're not with you.

00:39:40.493 --> 00:39:43.933
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:39:44.293 --> 00:39:46.913
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:39:46.913 --> 00:39:50.913
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:39:50.943 --> 00:39:55.233
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:39:55.673 --> 00:39:59.013
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:39:59.033 --> 00:40:03.273
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:40:03.473 --> 00:40:07.763
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:40:07.763 --> 00:40:11.063
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:40:11.063 --> 00:40:14.158
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:40:14.398 --> 00:40:18.898
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:40:19.228 --> 00:40:20.878
absolutely gives you this.

00:40:20.938 --> 00:40:20.939
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:40:20.938 --> 00:40:23.698
No, I had a, I had a breakdown.

00:40:23.978 --> 00:40:29.908
I was working as a dean, a college dean,
and I, I just reached a point where I

00:40:29.908 --> 00:40:36.448
just couldn't do it anymore and I broke
down and was weeping under my desk.

00:40:36.448 --> 00:40:36.988
So.

00:40:37.798 --> 00:40:42.058
I got to see a psychologist, and
fortunately this, I lucked out.

00:40:42.298 --> 00:40:46.618
There was a woman psychologist who
knew something about autism in women.

00:40:47.698 --> 00:40:51.448
And so I was talking to her and
she brought it up and she said,

00:40:51.508 --> 00:40:55.168
you know, Rebecca, I'd like
to talk with you about autism.

00:40:56.248 --> 00:40:59.008
And I didn't believe it.

00:40:59.338 --> 00:41:00.568
I said, don't be ridiculous.

00:41:00.568 --> 00:41:00.628
No

00:41:00.628 --> 00:41:02.548
Rupert Isaacson: one else had
had suggested that to you before?

00:41:03.118 --> 00:41:03.119
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:41:03.118 --> 00:41:03.628
No.

00:41:03.688 --> 00:41:11.728
I was diagnosed as a child with childhood
schizophrenia because the psychiatrist,

00:41:11.848 --> 00:41:14.278
they always said something was, there's
something wrong with that child.

00:41:14.278 --> 00:41:16.168
That was my mother's constant refrain.

00:41:16.528 --> 00:41:16.558
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:41:16.948 --> 00:41:16.949
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:41:16.948 --> 00:41:20.728
And the psychiatrist had asked me
in the office, I think, I don't

00:41:20.728 --> 00:41:24.298
know, I was about nine or something,
you know, do you hear voices?

00:41:24.808 --> 00:41:26.068
And I was very literal.

00:41:27.133 --> 00:41:31.723
And, you know, I said yes, because,
you know, of course I heard his

00:41:31.723 --> 00:41:33.373
voice and I heard people speaking.

00:41:33.373 --> 00:41:34.873
There was nothing wrong with my hearing.

00:41:34.873 --> 00:41:34.963
Right.

00:41:35.533 --> 00:41:37.953
And so I was promptly, you
know, the kind of, how old

00:41:37.953 --> 00:41:38.593
Rupert Isaacson: were you at that time?

00:41:39.253 --> 00:41:39.254
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:41:39.253 --> 00:41:40.063
About nine.

00:41:40.063 --> 00:41:40.123
Yeah.

00:41:41.683 --> 00:41:44.743
And that diagnosis was
absolutely incorrect.

00:41:44.843 --> 00:41:48.713
Because I didn't, I didn't hear the
types of voices that he was talking.

00:41:48.713 --> 00:41:49.913
I didn't have delusions.

00:41:49.913 --> 00:41:52.113
I didn't have, you know, anything.

00:41:52.113 --> 00:41:53.403
I was very introverted.

00:41:53.403 --> 00:41:55.083
I just wanted to be around horses.

00:41:55.083 --> 00:41:59.973
So they saw that as, as being kind of,
you know, not wanting to be around people.

00:41:59.973 --> 00:42:06.763
And but anyway, so, you know, I hadn't, I
always knew I was kind of different, but

00:42:06.793 --> 00:42:12.373
when this psychologist talked about it,
I, I, I started to learn more about it.

00:42:12.733 --> 00:42:16.603
And then I was rediagnosed
when I came to New Mexico.

00:42:16.988 --> 00:42:21.368
Because I wanted some accommodations
for my second master's program, right.

00:42:21.698 --> 00:42:25.418
So I was rediagnosed by another
psychologist with whom I work now

00:42:25.418 --> 00:42:28.748
actually, and and that so diagnosed twice.

00:42:28.748 --> 00:42:29.078
But yeah,

00:42:30.883 --> 00:42:31.733
Rupert Isaacson: it's
interesting the women that,

00:42:32.193 --> 00:42:32.194
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:42:32.193 --> 00:42:32.453
go ahead.

00:42:32.453 --> 00:42:32.733
Sorry.

00:42:32.733 --> 00:42:33.038
Go ahead.

00:42:33.038 --> 00:42:33.158
No,

00:42:33.158 --> 00:42:34.148
Rupert Isaacson: you
go ahead and then I'll,

00:42:34.298 --> 00:42:34.299
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:42:34.298 --> 00:42:38.678
well, the, the women that we have seen
as part of this major research project

00:42:38.678 --> 00:42:43.358
to develop this new instrument, that
is one of the most common things that

00:42:43.358 --> 00:42:46.448
we hear, this history of misdiagnoses.

00:42:46.968 --> 00:42:51.688
You know, everything ranging from
schizophrenia anxiety, depression,

00:42:51.688 --> 00:42:55.861
borderline personality disorder,
bipolar disorder, O-C-D-O-C-D,

00:42:55.918 --> 00:42:57.538
or social anxiety disorder.

00:42:57.568 --> 00:43:01.918
All of these disorders, some of them
certainly can exist co-occurring with

00:43:01.918 --> 00:43:06.838
autism, but just a history of seeking
answers without really getting anywhere.

00:43:07.528 --> 00:43:09.148
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I agree.

00:43:09.148 --> 00:43:09.808
I, I think.

00:43:10.678 --> 00:43:14.578
When it comes to the misdiagnosis and
the work that I've done, it definitely

00:43:14.578 --> 00:43:16.888
seems to be a more female thing.

00:43:17.518 --> 00:43:23.758
Almost as if when girls are at
school age, it might be changing.

00:43:23.758 --> 00:43:29.668
Now the assumptions of
autism tend to go to boys.

00:43:30.538 --> 00:43:30.628
Mm-hmm.

00:43:30.688 --> 00:43:35.968
Unless there's something, you know, it is
like super severe, not speaking at all.

00:43:36.058 --> 00:43:37.078
Okay, fine then.

00:43:37.588 --> 00:43:41.388
But if it's, if it's anything mild than
that and then yeah, there's, there's

00:43:41.388 --> 00:43:44.688
a lot of flying under the radar or as
you say, getting these false diagnoses.

00:43:44.688 --> 00:43:46.308
And one of the things which I often find

00:43:46.908 --> 00:43:51.108
I can understand it, but it's
a symptom actually of how

00:43:51.108 --> 00:43:52.548
mentally ill our society is.

00:43:52.548 --> 00:43:55.398
I think in, in general, is the
fact that all of these things have

00:43:55.398 --> 00:43:57.498
a d on the end of them disorder.

00:43:58.278 --> 00:44:01.688
You know, I spent so much
time in the Kalahari.

00:44:02.328 --> 00:44:06.668
I'm sure that I'm a DD or A DHD
but I regard it as something that

00:44:06.668 --> 00:44:08.348
allows me to have parallel careers.

00:44:08.348 --> 00:44:09.308
Live parallel lives.

00:44:09.308 --> 00:44:09.518
Yeah.

00:44:09.518 --> 00:44:10.148
I'm forgetful.

00:44:10.148 --> 00:44:10.478
Yeah.

00:44:10.478 --> 00:44:11.798
I'm absent minded.

00:44:11.798 --> 00:44:16.508
I mean, you know, you could have described
me, mark with your thing of, of those

00:44:16.508 --> 00:44:20.198
distractions, but probably, actually
I'll get all of those things done.

00:44:21.128 --> 00:44:21.368
Mm-hmm.

00:44:21.608 --> 00:44:21.698
Yes.

00:44:21.698 --> 00:44:23.978
If you look at the end of the month,
actually I've got them all done.

00:44:23.978 --> 00:44:26.198
It's just the timeframe might
have been a bit strange.

00:44:26.628 --> 00:44:29.238
But that allows me to do things like
make a film and write a book and train

00:44:29.238 --> 00:44:33.858
a horse and go travel over there and
kind of keep track even, even though

00:44:33.858 --> 00:44:35.598
I lose track in the short term.

00:44:36.163 --> 00:44:37.483
I can kind of keep track.

00:44:37.593 --> 00:44:40.683
And when I was with the sun, with the
Bushman in the Kalahari, you know,

00:44:40.683 --> 00:44:43.863
and I was observing a lot of hunting
and gathering, I realize, oh, you have

00:44:43.863 --> 00:44:48.303
to be like that because you have to
constantly adapt to new circumstances.

00:44:48.583 --> 00:44:52.573
When you are hunting, you know, the
wind changes, the, suddenly there's

00:44:52.573 --> 00:44:56.378
elephants over there you know, for
a, a bazillion reasons you might have

00:44:56.378 --> 00:45:01.448
to stop on the fly and do something
else and have 10 other plans.

00:45:01.628 --> 00:45:05.408
You know, when people joke about, oh,
squirrel, it's like, well, yes, yes,

00:45:05.978 --> 00:45:07.448
that squirrel might be your lunch.

00:45:07.478 --> 00:45:10.598
You know, and if you, so if you are
walking to see your friend and you

00:45:10.598 --> 00:45:15.428
notice antelope tracks, you're going
to, sorry about the visit, but I'm on

00:45:15.428 --> 00:45:19.388
these tracks now because if I can get
that antelope, actually I'll feed you.

00:45:19.538 --> 00:45:23.828
And this, this is, so, these things
aren't disorders unless one is

00:45:23.828 --> 00:45:30.278
in a society, which where this
personality type is not valued.

00:45:30.853 --> 00:45:31.663
Or not understood.

00:45:31.693 --> 00:45:33.043
And then sure.

00:45:33.463 --> 00:45:36.223
It's regarded as a, as a
disorder because then there's

00:45:36.223 --> 00:45:39.163
such a narrow economic 'cause.

00:45:39.163 --> 00:45:40.303
It really comes down to economics.

00:45:40.303 --> 00:45:44.983
I think there's just such a narrow
economic, participatory field, if

00:45:44.983 --> 00:45:48.223
you like, that anything that isn't,
as you say, completely within that

00:45:48.223 --> 00:45:49.933
field, gets labeled a disorder.

00:45:49.933 --> 00:45:53.203
But if it, if these things were all
disorders, given that they, people have

00:45:53.563 --> 00:45:57.823
had these since there were people, then
we'd be a very inefficient species.

00:45:57.823 --> 00:45:59.833
But we're not, we're the dominant species.

00:45:59.833 --> 00:46:03.793
So presumably there's more to
these things than meets the eye.

00:46:04.003 --> 00:46:09.403
But I I, I absolutely agree with you on
the female misdiagnosis and the confusion

00:46:09.403 --> 00:46:10.963
and the misery that this can cause.

00:46:11.073 --> 00:46:20.343
And the loss of self-confidence and
the loss of ability to swim in the

00:46:20.343 --> 00:46:23.868
world because you're always being
told you're using the wrong stroke.

00:46:24.873 --> 00:46:27.483
So with that in mind, go ahead.

00:46:27.483 --> 00:46:27.484
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:46:27.483 --> 00:46:33.573
Sorry to one of your points and that
just, just made one of the metaphors

00:46:33.573 --> 00:46:38.503
that I have come up with is what,
what brand of phone do you use?

00:46:38.683 --> 00:46:39.523
I use a Samsung.

00:46:40.168 --> 00:46:40.813
A Samsung.

00:46:41.053 --> 00:46:41.203
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:46:41.208 --> 00:46:41.683
Uhhuh an

00:46:41.683 --> 00:46:41.684
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:46:41.683 --> 00:46:42.133
Android.

00:46:42.163 --> 00:46:46.013
So do we actually, not a Samsung,
but well, you've got a Samsung, I

00:46:46.013 --> 00:46:50.383
think there's, there's basically
two different operating systems.

00:46:50.383 --> 00:46:50.683
Yes.

00:46:50.683 --> 00:46:52.423
Yeah, yeah.

00:46:52.693 --> 00:46:53.683
Both of them work.

00:46:55.783 --> 00:46:55.933
Yeah.

00:46:55.993 --> 00:46:59.653
Samsung, you can do everything on
a Samsung essentially, that you

00:46:59.653 --> 00:47:01.333
can do on an Apple, an iPhone.

00:47:01.338 --> 00:47:01.378
Mm-hmm.

00:47:02.563 --> 00:47:03.973
Nothing wrong with either phone.

00:47:04.663 --> 00:47:05.383
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

00:47:05.893 --> 00:47:06.043
Yeah,

00:47:06.043 --> 00:47:06.044
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:47:06.043 --> 00:47:08.053
that's, that's the metaphor.

00:47:08.233 --> 00:47:08.743
I agree.

00:47:09.583 --> 00:47:10.993
Rupert Isaacson: All
right, so here you are.

00:47:10.993 --> 00:47:12.343
You decide, okay.

00:47:13.303 --> 00:47:17.323
You know, Rebecca, you've had this
life experience and at what point.

00:47:17.908 --> 00:47:19.198
Do you guys decide?

00:47:19.438 --> 00:47:19.978
Actually, yeah.

00:47:19.978 --> 00:47:23.908
Let's start a, let's start something
therapeutic with the fact that we,

00:47:23.968 --> 00:47:26.668
'cause you've both got jobs, you've
both got careers at this point.

00:47:26.698 --> 00:47:30.268
You know, you, you've, and you,
Rebecca, you've achieved your goal.

00:47:30.268 --> 00:47:35.278
Your, you have a home, you have
horses, you have a good relationship.

00:47:35.428 --> 00:47:40.378
So why then go the ex this extra
mile and start wilder wood.

00:47:41.878 --> 00:47:41.879
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:47:41.878 --> 00:47:46.888
Well, we wanted to find a way
to highlight that connection

00:47:46.888 --> 00:47:51.568
that we both believe exists, can
exist between horses and humans.

00:47:51.868 --> 00:47:56.428
We wanted to do something to help other
people, especially autistic people.

00:47:57.178 --> 00:48:02.398
And so how it all started is I
first sought certification through

00:48:02.788 --> 00:48:07.288
a very well-known certifying
organization because I thought that

00:48:07.288 --> 00:48:08.818
would be a helpful thing to do.

00:48:09.583 --> 00:48:15.163
And that organization actually
had training on autism and the

00:48:15.163 --> 00:48:17.353
therapeutic riding relationship.

00:48:18.313 --> 00:48:22.993
So I started enrolling in that and I
was getting more and more frustrated.

00:48:22.993 --> 00:48:24.763
And Mark was noticing that.

00:48:24.763 --> 00:48:26.203
And he said, you know, what's wrong?

00:48:26.323 --> 00:48:27.673
I thought you wanted to do this.

00:48:27.673 --> 00:48:31.573
And I said, well, what they're teaching
is not gonna work for autistic people.

00:48:31.573 --> 00:48:31.663
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:48:32.203 --> 00:48:32.204
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:48:32.203 --> 00:48:33.313
It's just not gonna work.

00:48:33.973 --> 00:48:36.223
It's not gonna work for
me and I'm not doing this.

00:48:36.283 --> 00:48:39.433
So there's that black and
white autistic thinking.

00:48:39.583 --> 00:48:40.543
I shut it down.

00:48:41.053 --> 00:48:44.743
And you know, so I actually, and I called
them and I said, you know, when you were

00:48:44.743 --> 00:48:50.263
designing this program, did, did you get
actually any input from autistic people?

00:48:51.643 --> 00:48:55.393
And there was this pause on
the phone and they said, oh.

00:48:55.783 --> 00:48:57.703
That would probably have been a good idea.

00:48:57.703 --> 00:48:58.963
And I said, yes, it would have.

00:48:59.173 --> 00:49:00.823
Rupert Isaacson: Well, at least they
were honest enough to say that they were

00:49:00.823 --> 00:49:00.824
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:49:00.823 --> 00:49:01.243
honest.

00:49:01.243 --> 00:49:02.113
They were very honest.

00:49:02.113 --> 00:49:04.963
And, and then I just said to
Mark, look, I don't wanna do this.

00:49:04.963 --> 00:49:09.853
I, I wanna combine everything that
we've done, all of our life experiences,

00:49:09.853 --> 00:49:11.773
our horse knowledge and whatever.

00:49:11.773 --> 00:49:16.003
I just wanna do something based
on what we do, what we know,

00:49:16.063 --> 00:49:17.953
and, and put put it out there.

00:49:18.013 --> 00:49:19.873
And so that's, that's when it started.

00:49:19.873 --> 00:49:24.583
It started really with a laptop in our
living room and deciding to do this.

00:49:25.123 --> 00:49:29.893
And it's grown from there and evolved
as any healthy organization does.

00:49:29.893 --> 00:49:29.953
Hmm.

00:49:30.643 --> 00:49:36.293
And and now we're shifting off into
this research component and this equine

00:49:36.353 --> 00:49:38.573
EQU therapy and counseling component.

00:49:38.883 --> 00:49:40.983
So it's, it's grown up, up to there.

00:49:41.433 --> 00:49:41.853
Rupert Isaacson: It's great.

00:49:41.853 --> 00:49:44.343
You know, just to your point, I'm
gonna ask you to go through your,

00:49:44.373 --> 00:49:47.783
your, your three main, programs here.

00:49:48.123 --> 00:49:51.093
But just quickly before I do, it's
very interesting this point about

00:49:51.603 --> 00:49:57.813
not looking to the people that have
the condition to advise one about

00:49:57.933 --> 00:50:01.083
how to approach the condition.

00:50:01.233 --> 00:50:02.733
You know, because my
background is journalism.

00:50:02.733 --> 00:50:08.703
So like when I, I tried a BA other
types of things too observed very

00:50:08.703 --> 00:50:12.093
quickly that they weren't working
and then thought, well, okay, fine.

00:50:12.203 --> 00:50:14.903
And it hadn't occurred to me to do
anything with horses, despite the

00:50:14.903 --> 00:50:16.523
fact that I'm professional horseman.

00:50:16.553 --> 00:50:20.153
'cause my son's behaviors were so
erratic, I thought he wasn't safe around

00:50:20.153 --> 00:50:21.593
sport horses, which is what I was doing.

00:50:21.713 --> 00:50:23.363
And I was probably right
actually at that time.

00:50:23.633 --> 00:50:24.113
He wasn't.

00:50:24.163 --> 00:50:28.423
He created his own relationship with
the Mayor Betsy, as I, as I spoke,

00:50:28.423 --> 00:50:31.153
you know, and then we followed that
and that was a very different path.

00:50:31.603 --> 00:50:36.373
But what I did do when I
said, okay, well fine, I.

00:50:36.568 --> 00:50:39.358
I dunno what I, I, I did what the
people told me to do, didn't work.

00:50:39.358 --> 00:50:40.648
So now what do I do?

00:50:40.798 --> 00:50:43.468
It was the obvious thing to me to
do to reach out to Temple Grand.

00:50:43.468 --> 00:50:47.278
It's like, well there's someone with
autism who started nonverbal, like

00:50:47.278 --> 00:50:50.308
my son pooing in her pants, wiping
it on the walls just like my son.

00:50:51.238 --> 00:50:52.078
And now she's made it.

00:50:52.078 --> 00:50:55.018
Well that's the obvious person
who, like, who else are you

00:50:55.018 --> 00:50:57.028
gonna go to for mentorships?

00:50:57.028 --> 00:50:59.458
So I sat in an office with her and
said, how does my son become you?

00:50:59.758 --> 00:51:00.808
And she said, do three things.

00:51:00.808 --> 00:51:03.388
I did 'em and everything went from there.

00:51:03.568 --> 00:51:06.418
But I remember going back to the other
therapist and saying, this is what I went

00:51:06.418 --> 00:51:09.748
and did and getting it thrown back at
me that I was like some terrible parent.

00:51:10.258 --> 00:51:14.338
And I was like, well, based
on what you know, okay, fine.

00:51:14.848 --> 00:51:16.288
Let's just go our separate ways.

00:51:16.768 --> 00:51:18.368
Fast forward 20 years.

00:51:18.368 --> 00:51:23.598
Rowan, my son last year was actually
hired as a consultant by a study at

00:51:23.598 --> 00:51:29.028
Manchester Metropolitan University in
the UK to consult on how to make equine

00:51:29.028 --> 00:51:31.278
therapies better for autistic people.

00:51:31.398 --> 00:51:32.133
And he was one of our.

00:51:32.733 --> 00:51:36.483
Of a group of autistic consultants, of
people who'd, who'd actually had a lot

00:51:36.483 --> 00:51:40.143
of equine therapeutic approaches, and
what did they think could work better

00:51:40.143 --> 00:51:43.653
and what could be improved, and which,
you know, it's such a rational, insane

00:51:43.653 --> 00:51:45.183
approach, but it's taken 20 years.

00:51:45.483 --> 00:51:48.243
And he now is on another panel for that.

00:51:48.243 --> 00:51:52.233
And he helps me do trainings and he
explains to parents and practitioners.

00:51:52.383 --> 00:51:55.023
But of course, as you know, this
wasn't around back in the day.

00:51:55.273 --> 00:51:57.013
It was everyone and their opinion.

00:51:57.373 --> 00:52:02.113
And you either were lucky enough to luck
into an opinion that held water or like

00:52:02.113 --> 00:52:04.063
most opinions, opinions that that didn't.

00:52:04.363 --> 00:52:08.583
So now you are one of the
evidence-based partly through your

00:52:08.583 --> 00:52:11.013
own experience programs out there.

00:52:11.223 --> 00:52:13.143
You've got, it was on your website.

00:52:13.203 --> 00:52:21.953
You've got tism, you've got EQU
therapy, and you've got Radiance, a

00:52:21.953 --> 00:52:24.983
research tool with a w on the front.

00:52:25.583 --> 00:52:29.483
Named after a horse that you have
that's so a warm blood of the same name.

00:52:30.473 --> 00:52:33.353
Can you just talk us through, A
lot of listeners will want to know

00:52:33.353 --> 00:52:34.703
what your programs consist of.

00:52:35.003 --> 00:52:39.233
So can we start with Tism, then go to
EQU Therapy and then go to the Radiance?

00:52:39.833 --> 00:52:40.613
Would that be all right?

00:52:41.123 --> 00:52:41.124
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:52:41.123 --> 00:52:42.353
We certainly can.

00:52:42.353 --> 00:52:45.203
Jism is kind of an overarching principle.

00:52:45.203 --> 00:52:47.993
There is a connection between there.

00:52:47.993 --> 00:52:51.953
There are certain similarities
between autistic people and horses.

00:52:52.283 --> 00:52:54.893
I'll give you one example, parallelism.

00:52:55.553 --> 00:52:59.573
Often you'll see horses out in the field
who are communicating quite effectively

00:52:59.573 --> 00:53:02.033
with each other, but they're parallel.

00:53:02.273 --> 00:53:05.993
They're walking parallel, they're
interacting on a parallel basis.

00:53:06.263 --> 00:53:08.363
Autistic people tend to do that too.

00:53:08.853 --> 00:53:12.873
We don't need to be, you know, in your
face making eye contact talking with you.

00:53:12.873 --> 00:53:18.603
I'm quite happy to sit here parallel to my
husband and do my work and not necessarily

00:53:18.603 --> 00:53:20.373
interact and I'm having a great time.

00:53:20.773 --> 00:53:22.543
You know, that's one example of it.

00:53:22.543 --> 00:53:26.803
So it's based on a premise that
there are similarities between the

00:53:26.803 --> 00:53:30.613
autistic way of viewing the world and
an equine way of viewing the world.

00:53:31.093 --> 00:53:37.393
It started off with that as
experiences based on that idea, we

00:53:37.393 --> 00:53:41.833
did not do therapy because I was not
credentialed at that time to offer it.

00:53:42.863 --> 00:53:47.843
So it was more of a
interaction with horses just.

00:53:48.698 --> 00:53:52.538
Interacting in the way that felt
right for the person and the horse.

00:53:53.438 --> 00:53:59.138
So autism as a concept is kind of a
principle more so than a program now.

00:53:59.798 --> 00:54:01.238
I am now qualified.

00:54:01.268 --> 00:54:06.558
I have the master's in counseling
and I have designed a program

00:54:06.888 --> 00:54:09.558
called Counseling and EQU Therapy.

00:54:10.098 --> 00:54:15.048
It offers both, it offers equine
assisted therapy and also counseling

00:54:15.048 --> 00:54:17.898
that can take place without the horse.

00:54:18.168 --> 00:54:24.018
So it's kind of a dual counseling
approach, but it is absolutely steep in

00:54:24.018 --> 00:54:29.298
autistic knowledge, autistic preferences,
honoring autistic communication,

00:54:29.568 --> 00:54:31.458
honoring equine interaction.

00:54:31.948 --> 00:54:38.278
And so clients can choose to do
either the equine counseling, the

00:54:38.278 --> 00:54:40.888
EQU therapy is entirely ground based.

00:54:42.283 --> 00:54:46.543
We incorporate the principles
of leisure tape interaction.

00:54:47.083 --> 00:54:52.213
So acknowledging the horse as a
partner, recognizing the importance

00:54:52.213 --> 00:54:56.843
of communication, however that
takes place not about structured

00:54:56.843 --> 00:55:01.163
rules in terms of this is the way
the horse is going to behave, but

00:55:01.253 --> 00:55:04.673
what communication can we engage in?

00:55:05.003 --> 00:55:09.983
What feelings and emotions rise out of
that engagement and how can we analyze and

00:55:09.983 --> 00:55:14.963
assess and synthesize those to make sense
in a broader context to someone's life?

00:55:15.903 --> 00:55:20.553
That those are the principles of the, of
the F1 therapy and also the counseling

00:55:20.553 --> 00:55:23.883
as well specializing in autistic women.

00:55:24.633 --> 00:55:29.913
And because of that, there is a large
grief component that is, that is addressed

00:55:30.453 --> 00:55:35.373
because grief is one of the strongest
feelings that can be present in a

00:55:35.373 --> 00:55:37.383
late diagnosed autistic woman's life.

00:55:38.103 --> 00:55:39.873
Grief over lost opportunity.

00:55:40.503 --> 00:55:45.363
Grief over spending a lifetime thinking
there's something wrong with me.

00:55:45.843 --> 00:55:51.063
Grief in having to constantly mask
and camouflage and not be authentic.

00:55:51.613 --> 00:55:56.173
All of that needs to be worked through,
particularly after a diagnosis.

00:55:56.653 --> 00:56:00.643
So it's very much a niche counseling base.

00:56:01.513 --> 00:56:06.223
And like most things I do in my life,
I like to say slightly north of normal.

00:56:06.973 --> 00:56:08.083
It's unusual.

00:56:08.443 --> 00:56:12.913
A lot of it is based on, you know,
as you were talking about what feels

00:56:12.913 --> 00:56:17.083
right in this situation and, you
know, yes, learn and listen from

00:56:17.083 --> 00:56:22.003
others and take pieces of it, but put
it together in your own unique way.

00:56:22.273 --> 00:56:25.303
That's how you can make
a, a, a difference.

00:56:25.303 --> 00:56:29.553
I think that's how you can advance
whatever it is that you're doing.

00:56:30.633 --> 00:56:35.283
As far as the radiance is concerned,
that's our research arm of what we do.

00:56:36.003 --> 00:56:40.173
And we were very concerned about
the standard and quality and

00:56:40.173 --> 00:56:44.253
caliber of assessment instruments
to identify autism in women.

00:56:45.603 --> 00:56:51.413
So about four and a half years ago,
we decided to change that and you

00:56:51.413 --> 00:56:58.493
know, based on our knowledge and
understanding, my PhD unwittingly looked

00:56:58.493 --> 00:57:00.563
at aspects of autistic communication.

00:57:00.563 --> 00:57:02.303
I didn't know it at the time, but it did.

00:57:03.003 --> 00:57:08.523
We came up with the idea to develop not
only a new instrument to psychometrically

00:57:08.523 --> 00:57:14.133
assess for autism in women, but develop
a new protocol around it as well.

00:57:15.063 --> 00:57:22.593
So we came up with a survey instrument
of 150 items of childhood and adulthood,

00:57:23.373 --> 00:57:27.843
and we came initially started with an
interview based assessment protocol.

00:57:28.713 --> 00:57:32.583
We quickly realized the interview
based was not going to work.

00:57:32.943 --> 00:57:33.363
Rupert Isaacson: Why not?

00:57:33.443 --> 00:57:33.444
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:57:33.443 --> 00:57:38.738
'Cause it's an interview is based
on spontaneity, it's based on social

00:57:38.738 --> 00:57:41.858
communication, principles of interaction.

00:57:42.398 --> 00:57:42.548
Okay.

00:57:42.548 --> 00:57:44.018
So these are things that autistic women, a

00:57:44.018 --> 00:57:44.708
Rupert Isaacson: written interview.

00:57:44.708 --> 00:57:46.238
This was actually a
face-to-face interview.

00:57:46.238 --> 00:57:46.239
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:57:46.238 --> 00:57:47.378
Face-to-face interview.

00:57:47.378 --> 00:57:48.068
Yes, it was.

00:57:48.068 --> 00:57:49.448
It was, it was a struggle.

00:57:49.448 --> 00:57:51.668
But this is the way the paradigm is.

00:57:51.668 --> 00:57:51.848
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:57:52.578 --> 00:57:52.579
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:57:52.578 --> 00:57:53.988
It's based on observation.

00:57:53.988 --> 00:57:55.338
It's based on interview.

00:57:56.208 --> 00:57:59.268
So I went back again to my own background.

00:57:59.268 --> 00:58:04.578
My DA's in English, my masters in rhetoric
and composition and literary analysis,

00:58:04.578 --> 00:58:07.218
and my PhD's in cognitive linguistics.

00:58:08.358 --> 00:58:13.308
So I went back to that and I said to Mark,
we need to do away with the interview.

00:58:13.488 --> 00:58:18.078
We need to construct, have them
construct a narrative and analyze

00:58:18.078 --> 00:58:22.518
that narrative through critical
discourse theory to bring out themes

00:58:22.668 --> 00:58:25.458
of what constitutes female autism.

00:58:26.268 --> 00:58:29.868
Build our instrument and
our protocol around that.

00:58:31.158 --> 00:58:39.618
So we solicited participants and after
four years now we've got over 900

00:58:40.488 --> 00:58:46.938
assessments that we've done with input
and narratives from over 900 autistic

00:58:46.938 --> 00:58:54.108
women across the world that have enabled
us to identify recurring themes of

00:58:54.108 --> 00:59:01.698
what autism looks like in women, and
adjust and create this instrument and

00:59:01.698 --> 00:59:07.278
protocol of assessment that is much
more finely nuanced to what's actually

00:59:07.278 --> 00:59:09.948
going on in autistic women's lives.

00:59:10.678 --> 00:59:12.208
We're very excited about it.

00:59:12.898 --> 00:59:16.168
Not many other people have been
excited about it because it's a

00:59:16.408 --> 00:59:18.658
huge diversion from the paradigm.

00:59:19.808 --> 00:59:24.218
The so-called gold standard instruments
we think are quite problematic.

00:59:25.273 --> 00:59:27.998
Rupert Isaacson: Can you gimme an example
of, of what's called what people consider

00:59:28.028 --> 00:59:29.768
at the moment a gold standard instrument,

00:59:30.248 --> 00:59:30.249
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:59:30.248 --> 00:59:35.293
the A OS two module four, the A DIR
interview based and what and how,

00:59:35.293 --> 00:59:38.378
Rupert Isaacson: and because they're
based on face-to-face interviews or

00:59:38.588 --> 00:59:38.589
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:59:38.588 --> 00:59:43.748
they're based on neurotypical norms that
were standardized on male autistics.

00:59:43.748 --> 00:59:44.228
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:59:44.468 --> 00:59:44.469
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

00:59:44.468 --> 00:59:49.358
Also on observation, there's a
component of the ADOS two that involves

00:59:49.358 --> 00:59:54.398
storytelling and it's based on an
outdated understanding that autistic

00:59:54.398 --> 00:59:57.188
people do not and cannot have empathy.

00:59:57.633 --> 00:59:59.108
Ah, that okay.

00:59:59.558 --> 00:59:59.559
Dr. Marc Evanko:

00:59:59.558 --> 00:59:59.768
Yeah,

01:00:00.038 --> 01:00:00.039
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:00:00.038 --> 01:00:04.088
there was, there has been something
out of the University of Newcastle

01:00:04.148 --> 01:00:09.258
in the uk called the A CIA interview
protocol that we were actually

01:00:09.258 --> 01:00:11.868
trained on, and it's a step forward.

01:00:12.543 --> 01:00:15.873
It does actually acknowledge
some of the things about autistic

01:00:15.873 --> 01:00:17.733
people, but it's interview based.

01:00:17.733 --> 01:00:17.763
Mm.

01:00:18.423 --> 01:00:23.013
And it doesn't have a compendium
instrument that has been normed

01:00:23.013 --> 01:00:25.773
on autistic women, 900 of them.

01:00:26.853 --> 01:00:29.133
So we are very excited about the radiance.

01:00:29.133 --> 01:00:32.923
We've just finished phase two
which means we're not accepting any

01:00:32.923 --> 01:00:35.053
more participants that we figured.

01:00:35.163 --> 01:00:39.063
I think 938 getting close to
is what we're at right now.

01:00:39.693 --> 01:00:44.733
So we're just about to start venturing
into clinical trial where we have

01:00:44.783 --> 01:00:48.653
with clinicians, and I think we've got
about 16, who are interested so far

01:00:49.013 --> 01:00:53.693
in actually taking this instrument and
protocol into their own practice and,

01:00:53.753 --> 01:00:57.263
and using it in the field to assess.

01:00:58.268 --> 01:01:02.078
As part of that phase three,
we'll get that data back, make

01:01:02.078 --> 01:01:03.938
modifications if necessary.

01:01:03.938 --> 01:01:06.758
I'd like to think there will be no
modifications, but there will be.

01:01:07.598 --> 01:01:11.828
And then once that's completed,
then that instrument will be ready

01:01:11.918 --> 01:01:15.128
to publish and hopefully be used.

01:01:15.128 --> 01:01:19.958
So we get to the point where women who
think they're autistic, say, I want

01:01:19.958 --> 01:01:23.768
a practitioner who uses the Radiance
instrument and protocol to assess me.

01:01:24.758 --> 01:01:26.498
Rupert Isaacson: So it would
effectively be a diagnostic.

01:01:26.498 --> 01:01:27.548
It's a diagnostic tool.

01:01:27.998 --> 01:01:28.238
It

01:01:28.238 --> 01:01:28.239
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:01:28.238 --> 01:01:28.748
absolutely,

01:01:28.913 --> 01:01:29.203
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:01:29.208 --> 01:01:29.408
Yeah.

01:01:29.648 --> 01:01:29.649
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:01:29.648 --> 01:01:33.908
Let me just put one point in about the
Radiance that really sets it apart from

01:01:33.968 --> 01:01:36.008
even the other surveys that are done.

01:01:36.408 --> 01:01:44.538
First point is that there's no other
survey that was devised by Autistics.

01:01:44.838 --> 01:01:48.018
They're, they're all
devised by non autistics,

01:01:48.528 --> 01:01:48.888
Rupert Isaacson: right.

01:01:49.428 --> 01:01:49.429
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:01:49.428 --> 01:01:49.968
The.

01:01:50.523 --> 01:01:57.273
One huge problematic part of any
of the surveys that we actually use

01:01:57.273 --> 01:02:03.213
parallel to the Radiance survey is
the Likert Scale where people are

01:02:03.213 --> 01:02:10.143
putting themselves to numbers very
problematic, a as, almost as problematic

01:02:10.143 --> 01:02:18.773
as the the interview in that the, the
client gets caught between numbers.

01:02:19.733 --> 01:02:23.573
I'm not really a four, but
I'm not a three either.

01:02:23.753 --> 01:02:25.913
Sometimes I'm a two and
sometimes I'm a two.

01:02:25.943 --> 01:02:30.293
And depending on the context, I could
even be a one on this particular.

01:02:30.503 --> 01:02:34.943
And so struggling through those surveys.

01:02:35.513 --> 01:02:35.543
Mm.

01:02:35.993 --> 01:02:42.443
Which we are delivering actually
side by side with the ratings because

01:02:42.443 --> 01:02:44.153
they are, quote, the gold standard.

01:02:45.758 --> 01:02:50.408
They get to the radiance, which is
a true false format of response.

01:02:51.308 --> 01:02:58.328
So an an item on the radiance may say
I what would be an example I liked?

01:02:58.748 --> 01:03:04.048
I only wore one color or did not,
did not like a certain color.

01:03:04.738 --> 01:03:05.728
Very much.

01:03:06.838 --> 01:03:07.378
True or false?

01:03:07.408 --> 01:03:08.068
Yes or no?

01:03:08.578 --> 01:03:09.208
Well, yes.

01:03:10.088 --> 01:03:14.048
I, I mostly wore black when I
was in, in, in elementary school.

01:03:14.048 --> 01:03:17.048
I just didn't care about picking
up any colors or matching.

01:03:17.228 --> 01:03:19.748
Didn't like it would be
the comment that we got.

01:03:20.978 --> 01:03:28.028
That true false is so much more quick
to, to come up with the actual response.

01:03:28.088 --> 01:03:35.948
Our, we time it and our clients go
through a 65 item, non-autistic derived.

01:03:36.518 --> 01:03:45.458
Likert scale based survey that
the 150 item radiance is done in

01:03:45.458 --> 01:03:51.908
approximately half the time because
the answer comes so much more quickly.

01:03:52.208 --> 01:04:00.188
And the relief that our clients express
immediately following the radiance

01:04:00.188 --> 01:04:03.848
versus struggling through the non.

01:04:03.878 --> 01:04:03.879
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:04:03.878 --> 01:04:07.178
Yeah, there's, I I think two of
the things that comments that we

01:04:07.178 --> 01:04:11.318
get that's so heartening to us is
we often, very often get women who

01:04:11.318 --> 01:04:13.538
say, oh my God, I feel so heard.

01:04:13.538 --> 01:04:15.008
I feel so seen.

01:04:15.618 --> 01:04:18.943
And we say, well, yes, of course you
do, because this has been, this has been

01:04:18.943 --> 01:04:21.613
created by, by input from autistic women.

01:04:21.943 --> 01:04:25.153
And the other question we get is,
doesn't everybody feel like this?

01:04:25.153 --> 01:04:27.103
Doesn't everybody answer true to these?

01:04:27.703 --> 01:04:30.553
And you know, of course in the,
in the scope of our research, we

01:04:30.553 --> 01:04:32.728
administer it to non-autistic people.

01:04:33.538 --> 01:04:34.288
The answer is no.

01:04:34.978 --> 01:04:35.218
No.

01:04:36.118 --> 01:04:38.098
It's quite distinct.

01:04:38.698 --> 01:04:43.078
The difference between an autistic
response to a non-autistic response

01:04:43.258 --> 01:04:45.268
and the true falses are weighted.

01:04:45.318 --> 01:04:48.373
They're, they're weighted depending
on the, the research that we did

01:04:48.373 --> 01:04:51.613
based on the responses of non-autistic
people and autistic people.

01:04:51.613 --> 01:04:53.983
So it's a quite a
complicated scoring system.

01:04:54.413 --> 01:05:00.143
But it's just fascinating to us that
these women think almost uniformly,

01:05:00.353 --> 01:05:02.183
doesn't everybody think like this?

01:05:02.393 --> 01:05:04.703
And it's a bit like that,
that line from Temple Grand.

01:05:04.703 --> 01:05:07.913
And when she was in that, in the
film that was made about her, the

01:05:07.913 --> 01:05:10.163
realization, the same realization.

01:05:10.343 --> 01:05:11.963
Doesn't everybody think like me?

01:05:12.383 --> 01:05:12.384
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:05:12.383 --> 01:05:12.623
No.

01:05:12.668 --> 01:05:13.943
No, they don't.

01:05:13.943 --> 01:05:15.533
She was 35 years old.

01:05:15.533 --> 01:05:21.353
She said before she understood that
not everybody thought this way.

01:05:22.073 --> 01:05:22.763
Rupert Isaacson: Mm, yep.

01:05:22.823 --> 01:05:23.513
Theory of mind.

01:05:23.843 --> 01:05:24.203
Absolutely.

01:05:24.293 --> 01:05:24.923
Yes.

01:05:24.983 --> 01:05:26.123
Doesn't, doesn't come.

01:05:26.783 --> 01:05:28.073
Naturally as one.

01:05:28.408 --> 01:05:28.628
No.

01:05:28.633 --> 01:05:29.303
No, absolutely.

01:05:29.333 --> 01:05:29.423
Mm-hmm.

01:05:30.143 --> 01:05:35.123
And I think that's often one of the
things that is where people mistake lack.

01:05:35.123 --> 01:05:39.473
You know, the mistake about
lack of empathy I think is

01:05:39.473 --> 01:05:43.103
actually more accurately
perhaps impaired theory of mind.

01:05:43.343 --> 01:05:45.683
But that doesn't mean lack of empathy.

01:05:46.463 --> 01:05:48.983
That just means a different
way of expressing empathy.

01:05:49.493 --> 01:05:53.753
And yes, I remember, you know, back
in our early days with autism, hearing

01:05:53.753 --> 01:05:56.573
that kind of lack of empathy thing,
thinking I have this very loving

01:05:56.573 --> 01:06:02.588
little boy who yes, you know, but
who would express it differently?

01:06:03.653 --> 01:06:07.793
And definitely we have to
help him with theory of mind.

01:06:07.793 --> 01:06:09.983
But that's a cognitive thing.

01:06:09.983 --> 01:06:13.763
That's not an emotional response.

01:06:13.973 --> 01:06:16.763
The emotional response is right
there, and it's bang, accurate.

01:06:16.883 --> 01:06:18.233
You know, he's not a psychopath.

01:06:18.323 --> 01:06:20.813
He's just expresses it differently.

01:06:20.873 --> 01:06:22.723
And I've, I remember finding that.

01:06:23.998 --> 01:06:25.438
Perplexing that.

01:06:25.888 --> 01:06:29.998
And then I say, ah, is this because in
fact, a lot of people doing the diagnoses

01:06:31.198 --> 01:06:35.118
are in fact and perhaps a lot of these
tools were in fact created by Asperger's

01:06:35.118 --> 01:06:43.648
men who might have had difficulty
themselves with some theory of mind and

01:06:43.648 --> 01:06:49.018
might have had a somewhat rigid worldview.

01:06:49.018 --> 01:06:50.848
I mean, I'm thinking about
people like Lova, you know,

01:06:50.848 --> 01:06:52.608
who, who invented, you know?

01:06:52.608 --> 01:06:53.023
Oh, must must.

01:06:53.603 --> 01:06:57.193
You know, I, I, I had a really
interesting interaction years ago.

01:06:57.578 --> 01:07:01.238
I was in Houston and we were doing
some autism thing or other, and I was

01:07:01.238 --> 01:07:09.338
talking about the not great experiences
I'd had with a BA and somebody said I

01:07:09.338 --> 01:07:13.538
was lo VA's housemate at university.

01:07:14.708 --> 01:07:14.948
Oh, wow.

01:07:15.218 --> 01:07:16.178
85-year-old guy.

01:07:16.238 --> 01:07:16.508
Yeah.

01:07:16.928 --> 01:07:18.488
And I was like, what are the odds?

01:07:19.538 --> 01:07:20.138
I said, well, tell him.

01:07:20.138 --> 01:07:26.888
He said, well, Rupert, he was obviously,
obviously Asperger's, and he himself had,

01:07:27.848 --> 01:07:32.228
you know, suffered a fair or bit, and
then he'd grown into a very big man who

01:07:32.228 --> 01:07:33.848
could use himself very forcefully and.

01:07:34.763 --> 01:07:37.823
Was just very interested that
after the war, this new topic

01:07:37.823 --> 01:07:40.793
of autism, and then there was
Asperger himself ever in Austria.

01:07:40.883 --> 01:07:43.853
And he saw this as an opportunity, but
he didn't care from children at all.

01:07:43.913 --> 01:07:46.973
You know, it was just a way to
make a mark within psychology.

01:07:46.973 --> 01:07:48.173
But was he on the spectrum?

01:07:48.173 --> 01:07:48.773
Probably.

01:07:48.833 --> 01:07:50.393
You know, that's, that's what he said.

01:07:50.393 --> 01:07:52.973
And But had he been
somewhat brutalized Yes.

01:07:53.393 --> 01:07:57.053
And therefore, was that how he
was going to approach things?

01:07:57.053 --> 01:07:57.593
Sure.

01:07:57.743 --> 01:07:59.183
'cause he was a product at the time.

01:07:59.633 --> 01:08:04.043
And well, the rest is what we know,
but it's, it's interesting that so

01:08:04.043 --> 01:08:06.353
of course, you know, being as you
know, you know, being autistic doesn't

01:08:06.353 --> 01:08:09.593
make one a saint or a sinner, it
just makes one what one is autistic.

01:08:09.608 --> 01:08:09.898
Yeah.

01:08:09.898 --> 01:08:09.908
Yeah.

01:08:09.908 --> 01:08:17.558
You know, and but it's, what's clear is
that the inability to see nuance, I agree

01:08:17.558 --> 01:08:22.268
with you, does seem to be weirdly built
into the frameworks of the diagnostic

01:08:22.268 --> 01:08:24.278
tools and of most of the therapies.

01:08:24.818 --> 01:08:25.538
Mm-hmm.

01:08:25.539 --> 01:08:25.549
And.

01:08:25.928 --> 01:08:29.468
Given that we're dealing with humans
who, as you say, you know, if you

01:08:29.468 --> 01:08:31.598
give them, what, what number are you?

01:08:31.598 --> 01:08:35.528
They'll say, well, on Tuesday it's one,
but you know, by Thursday it has to

01:08:35.528 --> 01:08:38.168
be six because of my menstrual cycle.

01:08:38.168 --> 01:08:43.388
Or the fact that we've got, you know,
a, a, a low atmospheric pressure or

01:08:43.758 --> 01:08:47.898
I ended up in this situation with,
you know, this authority figure,

01:08:47.898 --> 01:08:50.718
which automatically presses my
amygdala, so therefore I become a two.

01:08:50.988 --> 01:08:54.288
You know, and then you could look at that
and say, well, that's anybody, right?

01:08:54.318 --> 01:08:54.678
So, yes.

01:08:54.708 --> 01:08:55.458
'cause we're all human.

01:08:55.968 --> 01:09:00.198
So if we're autistic human or
non-autistic human, we're still human.

01:09:00.378 --> 01:09:04.038
So I think if the, if, if the aliens were
to come down and look at us and go, well,

01:09:04.338 --> 01:09:07.368
okay, that one's got a diagnosis and
that one doesn't, but, you know, they all

01:09:07.368 --> 01:09:11.418
look kind of the same and they kind of,
you know, get upset about this and, you

01:09:11.418 --> 01:09:13.218
know, not upset about that more or less.

01:09:13.218 --> 01:09:18.318
And, you know, it, it shows that they
are more nuances and personality types,

01:09:18.318 --> 01:09:23.733
I think than, but, but, but we can
make too much or too little of them.

01:09:25.113 --> 01:09:26.493
But I, but I agree with you.

01:09:26.493 --> 01:09:30.273
When it's about actually trying to
do a diagnostic tool, then that's

01:09:30.273 --> 01:09:33.753
when one has to dive into the
nuance and make it a huge thing.

01:09:34.443 --> 01:09:35.733
Otherwise, how can it work?

01:09:36.273 --> 01:09:37.413
Particularly if it's gonna
work across the board.

01:09:37.623 --> 01:09:41.463
The, the, the, the question that
comes up for me when you're describing

01:09:41.463 --> 01:09:43.803
this, of course, is I'm thinking,
well, this of course would work

01:09:43.803 --> 01:09:48.153
for presumably male autistic people
as well as female autistic people.

01:09:48.303 --> 01:09:51.303
So the radiance think surely
that's something that could

01:09:51.303 --> 01:09:52.353
work across the genders.

01:09:52.713 --> 01:09:54.663
Or do you think it's specifically female?

01:09:56.118 --> 01:09:56.119
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:09:56.118 --> 01:10:01.083
Well, we started off by including
males and in, in the, in the

01:10:01.083 --> 01:10:02.913
first phase of the research.

01:10:02.913 --> 01:10:06.723
And then we decided we're
just gonna focus on females.

01:10:07.083 --> 01:10:12.033
So yes, we have used the radiance
to assess males, not, not very

01:10:12.033 --> 01:10:13.833
many compared to the females.

01:10:14.253 --> 01:10:18.633
And I think that as an instrument, yes,
it could be used, conceivably be used

01:10:18.743 --> 01:10:20.933
it's an adult assessment instrument.

01:10:21.043 --> 01:10:27.193
But I, I can say that our focus and
our interest is on autistic females.

01:10:27.198 --> 01:10:27.318
Yeah.

01:10:27.523 --> 01:10:28.783
And as they present.

01:10:29.253 --> 01:10:30.513
So yeah.

01:10:30.933 --> 01:10:32.643
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think though,
perhaps, you know, if we look forward

01:10:32.643 --> 01:10:37.833
20 years and let's say Radiance is, you
know, it's a thing by then and it's a

01:10:37.833 --> 01:10:41.163
diagnostic tool, do you think there's
just a natural evolution that then there

01:10:41.163 --> 01:10:44.283
would be a radiance for men as well?

01:10:45.678 --> 01:10:45.679
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:10:45.678 --> 01:10:47.058
I, I'd like to see that.

01:10:47.058 --> 01:10:50.838
I think that that's probably an, an
area that someone else could take on.

01:10:50.838 --> 01:10:50.958
Mm-hmm.

01:10:51.328 --> 01:10:54.148
You know, at our age, I think
we're sort of coming to the end

01:10:54.148 --> 01:10:58.788
of our research careers and this
that contribute the radiance is

01:10:58.788 --> 01:11:00.918
something as our contribution to it.

01:11:00.918 --> 01:11:01.008
Mm-hmm.

01:11:01.468 --> 01:11:05.638
Yeah, I, I certainly hope that there
would be more research that's done that's

01:11:05.638 --> 01:11:11.128
based on input from the people who are
going to be served by the instrument.

01:11:11.278 --> 01:11:11.279
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:11:11.278 --> 01:11:15.598
I, I'd like to throw in a point
about this is, is that the

01:11:18.838 --> 01:11:25.268
diagnosis of males has
largely molded the stereotype.

01:11:25.538 --> 01:11:25.718
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:11:27.248 --> 01:11:27.249
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:11:27.248 --> 01:11:31.268
And so males are generally.

01:11:32.228 --> 01:11:34.268
Much more easily diagnosed.

01:11:34.268 --> 01:11:39.428
Not that they're more in number
necessarily, it's just that they are

01:11:39.458 --> 01:11:42.968
looked for much earlier in their lives.

01:11:45.098 --> 01:11:52.718
One of the thoughts about that is because
females actually are much more easily

01:11:53.298 --> 01:12:00.568
mask and learn these nuances, don't know
what to do about it, but know how to

01:12:01.018 --> 01:12:06.778
mask themselves so that, as you mentioned
earlier, they fly under the radar

01:12:06.898 --> 01:12:07.288
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:12:08.428 --> 01:12:08.429
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:12:08.428 --> 01:12:16.108
As until about middle school,
seventh, sixth grade, when the social

01:12:16.108 --> 01:12:18.898
pressures really start kicking in.

01:12:18.913 --> 01:12:19.198
Mm mm-hmm.

01:12:19.708 --> 01:12:28.168
And it becomes way more than that
female, that girl can handle.

01:12:28.168 --> 01:12:29.338
And she comes home.

01:12:29.923 --> 01:12:35.203
After having been so smiley and so
wonderful at school, and the teachers all

01:12:35.203 --> 01:12:41.383
love her and she's extremely smart and
comes home and melts down at four o'clock,

01:12:41.503 --> 01:12:41.504
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:12:41.503 --> 01:12:41.923
meltdown

01:12:42.403 --> 01:12:42.404
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:12:42.403 --> 01:12:46.603
in the afternoon and can't
communicate with her parents and

01:12:46.603 --> 01:12:52.423
is throwing things and is having
fits over, I can't do this anymore.

01:12:52.513 --> 01:12:53.143
That wasn't me at

01:12:53.143 --> 01:12:53.473
Rupert Isaacson: all.

01:12:53.923 --> 01:12:53.924
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:12:53.923 --> 01:12:54.673
Yeah, no.

01:12:55.303 --> 01:12:55.393
Mm-hmm.

01:12:56.143 --> 01:12:56.893
Rupert Isaacson: So here's the question.

01:12:56.893 --> 01:12:59.113
Yeah, I, I totally, I
totally see the logic.

01:12:59.213 --> 01:13:00.743
Here's a question, practical question.

01:13:00.803 --> 01:13:07.553
So, let's say that same goal in a couple
of years goes through a radiance, diag

01:13:07.653 --> 01:13:12.003
assessment and gets the diagnosis.

01:13:15.423 --> 01:13:22.413
What could, particularly within the
American system, what could change?

01:13:23.493 --> 01:13:26.823
For her because of that, that
would be to her advantage.

01:13:28.023 --> 01:13:28.024
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:13:28.023 --> 01:13:33.393
We can testimonials, we, we, we've
actually got unsolicited emails back from

01:13:33.393 --> 01:13:38.943
our clients, not just at, at the age that
you're talking about, but across ages.

01:13:39.583 --> 01:13:43.543
Saying, I can't believe
how it's changed my,

01:13:43.543 --> 01:13:43.544
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:13:43.543 --> 01:13:44.143
it's changed everything,

01:13:44.173 --> 01:13:44.174
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:13:44.173 --> 01:13:47.353
perception of myself and
everything around me.

01:13:48.263 --> 01:13:57.173
And I am, I am so able to now
navigate simply because someone

01:13:57.863 --> 01:14:00.593
has heard me the imposter syndrome.

01:14:00.833 --> 01:14:03.863
Am I or am I not autistic?

01:14:05.423 --> 01:14:07.343
I'm acting this way.

01:14:07.583 --> 01:14:11.003
Well, maybe I am a borderline personality.

01:14:11.393 --> 01:14:17.063
I've been told that it doesn't, I've
looked it up, it doesn't fit well, but.

01:14:18.178 --> 01:14:21.778
And then I started, somebody told me,
a counselor told me I may be autistic.

01:14:21.778 --> 01:14:23.818
So I did my deep dive in autism.

01:14:24.178 --> 01:14:27.088
And by gosh, it, that really seems to fix,

01:14:27.268 --> 01:14:27.269
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:14:27.268 --> 01:14:28.048
explain so much.

01:14:28.108 --> 01:14:28.109
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:14:28.108 --> 01:14:38.068
And now I can ask for just incandescent
light in, you know, I, I know, I know why

01:14:38.068 --> 01:14:38.069
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:14:38.068 --> 01:14:39.988
flu restin like bothers me so much.

01:14:39.988 --> 01:14:44.518
I know why I can't spontaneously
contribute to these meetings at work.

01:14:44.518 --> 01:14:48.478
I know why I prefer to send email
than the phone, and I'm okay.

01:14:49.318 --> 01:14:50.398
I, I'm okay.

01:14:50.578 --> 01:14:52.318
Somebody asked me that question actually.

01:14:52.318 --> 01:14:55.078
They once, they said, well, what'd
you bother getting a diagnosis for?

01:14:55.078 --> 01:14:57.388
You're not gonna be
able to access services.

01:14:57.388 --> 01:14:58.858
It's not gonna change anything.

01:14:59.188 --> 01:15:02.008
You know, you're 49 or whatever it is.

01:15:02.128 --> 01:15:03.118
Why'd you do it?

01:15:03.568 --> 01:15:04.858
What difference does it make?

01:15:04.888 --> 01:15:08.818
And I thought about this question
and I said it changed everything.

01:15:09.463 --> 01:15:10.783
It changed everything

01:15:11.083 --> 01:15:12.583
Rupert Isaacson: that
I can absolutely see.

01:15:12.913 --> 01:15:14.893
Yeah, no, that, that
makes perfect sense to me.

01:15:14.923 --> 01:15:16.483
Self-advocacy effectively.

01:15:16.823 --> 01:15:20.953
And definitely within our
programs, self-advocacy is always

01:15:20.953 --> 01:15:22.963
kind of what we're aiming for.

01:15:22.963 --> 01:15:25.723
That somebody can say,
okay, look, this is me.

01:15:25.783 --> 01:15:26.923
This is what I'm gonna need.

01:15:27.103 --> 01:15:30.523
But in return, if you can accommodate
me here with these environmental

01:15:30.523 --> 01:15:32.353
things, these sensory things, et cetera,

01:15:32.893 --> 01:15:32.894
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:15:32.893 --> 01:15:33.818
I can my best, well, not up my best.

01:15:33.818 --> 01:15:37.963
Well, not so much self-advocacy
as it as it was self-understanding

01:15:38.353 --> 01:15:40.063
for the first time in my life.

01:15:40.153 --> 01:15:40.303
Mm-hmm.

01:15:40.363 --> 01:15:44.623
I could look at myself and say,
there's nothing wrong with you

01:15:45.013 --> 01:15:47.203
after being told my entire life.

01:15:47.353 --> 01:15:47.473
Mm-hmm.

01:15:47.653 --> 01:15:48.943
There's something wrong with you.

01:15:49.033 --> 01:15:49.933
You don't fit in.

01:15:50.083 --> 01:15:51.103
You are the constant.

01:15:51.103 --> 01:15:53.113
You are the one who's got
the broken relationships.

01:15:53.113 --> 01:15:54.583
You are the one who can't keep a job.

01:15:54.583 --> 01:15:56.083
You are the one who can't stay at school.

01:15:56.203 --> 01:15:57.613
You are a problem.

01:15:57.853 --> 01:16:01.573
For the first time, I said
to myself, I'm not a problem.

01:16:01.693 --> 01:16:02.563
I'm autistic.

01:16:02.953 --> 01:16:03.973
I think differently.

01:16:04.273 --> 01:16:04.693
It was right.

01:16:04.693 --> 01:16:05.803
No life changing.

01:16:05.953 --> 01:16:06.523
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:16:06.523 --> 01:16:07.003
Get that.

01:16:07.003 --> 01:16:12.563
If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

01:16:12.573 --> 01:16:17.563
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

01:16:18.028 --> 01:16:19.338
of dressage training.

01:16:19.378 --> 01:16:27.948
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:16:28.018 --> 01:16:34.298
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:16:34.308 --> 01:16:40.828
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:16:40.878 --> 01:16:43.648
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:16:43.708 --> 01:16:44.448
Intrigued?

01:16:44.648 --> 01:16:45.508
Like to know more?

01:16:46.378 --> 01:16:49.208
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:16:50.908 --> 01:16:52.598
Check out the free introduction course.

01:16:53.158 --> 01:16:53.678
Take it from there.

01:16:54.182 --> 01:16:57.422
I'm thinking about the girl that
you've just described, who, who's

01:16:57.422 --> 01:17:00.782
melting down when she gets home from
school because school is school.

01:17:01.502 --> 01:17:04.742
It's one of the reasons, for example,
why we have this program called Movement

01:17:04.742 --> 01:17:09.932
Method, which was originally a homeschool
program for my son, which is now to my

01:17:09.962 --> 01:17:12.122
astonishment, being taken on in schools.

01:17:12.632 --> 01:17:18.932
But it was specifically trying to
address this let's say that girl that

01:17:18.932 --> 01:17:21.182
you just described, she's getting
home, she's melting down, so she,

01:17:21.572 --> 01:17:24.962
the, the, the relationship with
the parents is now compromised, so

01:17:24.962 --> 01:17:27.782
that means the home environment is
compromised and so on and so on.

01:17:29.972 --> 01:17:37.907
She goes through the assessment, she
gets the diagnosis, does do things

01:17:37.907 --> 01:17:42.812
improve for her because then when
she gets home, her parents know.

01:17:43.772 --> 01:17:44.822
She needs space.

01:17:44.822 --> 01:17:52.382
She needs time to recharge and recover,
and therefore the demands that we can

01:17:52.382 --> 01:18:00.962
make need to be rethought because she's
exhausted by what she's had to the

01:18:00.962 --> 01:18:02.972
energy she's had to expend dah, dah, dah.

01:18:03.122 --> 01:18:04.862
So therefore things go better at home.

01:18:04.862 --> 01:18:08.972
So therefore, you know, I I Is that where
or, and she can then go to teachers and

01:18:08.972 --> 01:18:12.572
say, or parents go to teachers and say,
look, this is what's going on with her.

01:18:12.572 --> 01:18:16.172
Can we make certain
sensory accommodations?

01:18:16.172 --> 01:18:17.072
Can we this, can we that?

01:18:17.522 --> 01:18:19.412
And then, yeah.

01:18:20.762 --> 01:18:20.763
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:18:20.762 --> 01:18:21.512
How does it better

01:18:21.512 --> 01:18:22.262
Rupert Isaacson: get better for her?

01:18:22.352 --> 01:18:22.353
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:18:22.352 --> 01:18:24.152
Well, it would be better.

01:18:24.572 --> 01:18:26.132
More education is needed.

01:18:26.132 --> 01:18:29.942
There is a huge amount of
misinformation about autism in females.

01:18:29.942 --> 01:18:33.872
The program that I have just gone
through, the three year program.

01:18:34.187 --> 01:18:38.747
Did not mention autism in females
once it was mentioned in children,

01:18:39.047 --> 01:18:43.097
and the only time it was mentioned in
any of the textbooks or discussions

01:18:43.097 --> 01:18:47.507
that I had in an adult was in a
male with intellectual disability.

01:18:47.837 --> 01:18:49.337
So a huge gap.

01:18:49.367 --> 01:18:52.757
I think the type of programs that
you are offering would go a long

01:18:52.757 --> 01:18:54.647
way for that hypothetical girl.

01:18:55.187 --> 01:18:57.407
She would not take the radiance.

01:18:57.527 --> 01:18:59.927
The radiance is designed for adult women.

01:19:00.197 --> 01:19:00.527
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

01:19:00.917 --> 01:19:00.918
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:19:00.917 --> 01:19:05.447
Now there could be a researcher out there
who wants to take the work we've done on

01:19:05.447 --> 01:19:08.927
the radiance and create one for girls.

01:19:09.267 --> 01:19:10.587
We toyed with the idea.

01:19:10.587 --> 01:19:12.237
We were gonna call it the cognac.

01:19:12.447 --> 01:19:13.437
We might do it.

01:19:13.467 --> 01:19:14.187
I don't know.

01:19:14.577 --> 01:19:19.587
All of our research has been
self-funded or funded by participants.

01:19:19.737 --> 01:19:21.717
We do not get any government grants.

01:19:21.717 --> 01:19:23.727
We have not had institutional grants.

01:19:23.967 --> 01:19:27.837
No one is much interested in funding
research into autistic women,

01:19:28.107 --> 01:19:33.117
particularly a, a, a program that is
designed to support and enhance them.

01:19:33.522 --> 01:19:35.412
Cure, that's another thing.

01:19:35.712 --> 01:19:39.072
And now we have RFK who's going
down that rabbit hole as well.

01:19:39.652 --> 01:19:44.782
So yeah, I think there is a huge
opportunity here for the work that you

01:19:44.782 --> 01:19:49.552
are doing, for the work that we are
doing for other autistic researchers

01:19:49.552 --> 01:19:54.712
to run with this and really start
to make some inroads into an area

01:19:54.712 --> 01:19:57.262
that has been woefully ignored.

01:19:57.652 --> 01:19:58.012
Hmm.

01:19:59.992 --> 01:20:00.442
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:20:00.502 --> 01:20:00.772
Yeah.

01:20:00.772 --> 01:20:02.182
I mean, and it's so interesting, isn't it?

01:20:02.182 --> 01:20:05.272
I'm, I'm thinking to someone I
know who has this ex exact story.

01:20:06.022 --> 01:20:10.072
She's now 30 and she is in fact
now a researcher in the field.

01:20:10.432 --> 01:20:12.922
She had the good fortune to have a pony.

01:20:12.922 --> 01:20:14.452
Mm-hmm.

01:20:14.627 --> 01:20:16.722
And the pony took up the slack.

01:20:17.532 --> 01:20:19.932
But not everybody, of
course, is in that position.

01:20:20.442 --> 01:20:23.712
And I guess it's just listening to
you speak and, and thinking about.

01:20:24.582 --> 01:20:33.732
How so many, I think adolescent girls
have this experience of being the one

01:20:33.732 --> 01:20:44.682
who is bringing emotional upheaval into
a family environment, but may or may

01:20:44.687 --> 01:20:46.632
not have much choice in that matter.

01:20:47.652 --> 01:20:53.172
And therefore, if this were better
understood, particularly when it

01:20:53.172 --> 01:20:54.882
hits that middle school pain point.

01:20:55.362 --> 01:20:55.512
Yes.

01:20:55.622 --> 01:20:57.542
You know, how much better could things be?

01:20:57.542 --> 01:20:59.282
And I suspect they could be much better.

01:21:00.122 --> 01:21:05.882
So I'm also, it's natural for
me to imagine in my journalistic

01:21:05.882 --> 01:21:09.482
mind, okay, the radiance goes
out there and it gets a momentum.

01:21:09.992 --> 01:21:15.722
And then it would seem to me
almost inevitable that a cohort of

01:21:15.932 --> 01:21:20.042
probably female researchers, but
possibly also male, might go listen.

01:21:20.642 --> 01:21:24.092
Maybe we need this actually much
earlier so that we're not picking

01:21:24.092 --> 01:21:30.672
up people who are so traumatized
by, you know, lives gone wrong that

01:21:30.672 --> 01:21:35.472
they have to kind of rethink and
rebuild and reframe in middle age.

01:21:36.102 --> 01:21:38.292
Do we need to, does it need,
does that need to happen?

01:21:38.292 --> 01:21:38.832
No, it doesn't.

01:21:38.892 --> 01:21:43.392
If we can think more intelligently
about this and this is, this

01:21:43.392 --> 01:21:44.382
is the, now the other problem.

01:21:44.382 --> 01:21:45.552
Remember we started with tribe.

01:21:46.092 --> 01:21:49.242
One of things that's also very difficult,
and this is a point I'm making often

01:21:49.242 --> 01:21:54.492
when I'm working with young autistic
adults, is it, while it is true that

01:21:54.522 --> 01:22:00.192
neurotypicals must and should meet you
more than halfway, you have to meet

01:22:00.192 --> 01:22:01.962
them halfway too, because Absolutely.

01:22:01.962 --> 01:22:03.462
That's just the world we're in, you know?

01:22:03.912 --> 01:22:04.512
And.

01:22:05.667 --> 01:22:09.457
Whether that's a should or whether that's
a shouldn't, it's and is and mm-hmm.

01:22:09.482 --> 01:22:11.217
That's a set of survival skills.

01:22:11.217 --> 01:22:14.487
So it's like, you know, for example,
I have to speak other languages.

01:22:14.487 --> 01:22:18.087
I live in Germany, I have to speak German,
I lived in France, I had to speak French.

01:22:18.447 --> 01:22:19.827
I'll be going to live in Spain soon.

01:22:19.827 --> 01:22:20.637
I have to learn Spanish.

01:22:20.637 --> 01:22:24.507
I just will have to, whether I wanted
to or not is completely irrelevant.

01:22:24.807 --> 01:22:28.077
If I want to be able to get around in
America, I have to get a driving license.

01:22:28.077 --> 01:22:28.677
Do I wanna drive?

01:22:28.677 --> 01:22:29.937
Do I not wanna drive irrelevant?

01:22:30.117 --> 01:22:32.127
Gotta have one or, it's very difficult.

01:22:32.647 --> 01:22:34.387
But it doesn't mean that I stop being me.

01:22:35.157 --> 01:22:37.437
I'm just me with a set of skills.

01:22:38.397 --> 01:22:44.637
So, but what's so hard for parents?

01:22:44.637 --> 01:22:49.617
I think, and as you say, in families
where there is autism, one of

01:22:49.617 --> 01:22:55.597
the parents can also be autistic,
which can add, you know, variables.

01:22:55.927 --> 01:22:57.727
They often have no support.

01:22:59.287 --> 01:22:59.557
Right.

01:22:59.827 --> 01:23:04.717
Without tribe, it's almost, you
know, and I, it's almost impossible.

01:23:04.717 --> 01:23:10.237
And I, I had this good fortune to
spend all this time with indigenous

01:23:10.237 --> 01:23:13.177
people where there is a lot of support.

01:23:13.657 --> 01:23:15.247
No one is left unsupported.

01:23:15.547 --> 01:23:19.957
Everyone in the community regards anyone
else's struggle as something that everyone

01:23:19.957 --> 01:23:21.847
else has a partial responsibility for.

01:23:22.057 --> 01:23:24.607
Because if one person fails,
the whole thing can fold and

01:23:24.607 --> 01:23:26.077
everyone gets eaten by hyenas.

01:23:26.227 --> 01:23:26.977
That's no good.

01:23:27.217 --> 01:23:30.757
So we step in and people might
grumble about it, but people

01:23:31.417 --> 01:23:32.887
step in and help automatically.

01:23:33.097 --> 01:23:35.677
We know that that's just not
how things are set up, you know?

01:23:35.857 --> 01:23:38.617
So I'm just thinking back to your
story, Rebecca, you know, I mean,

01:23:38.827 --> 01:23:42.607
your mom, whatever was going on with
her was also isolated and alone.

01:23:42.817 --> 01:23:46.237
Probably didn't have the skills to
cope, you know, might have had some

01:23:46.237 --> 01:23:49.117
sort of diagnosis going on herself
of something, or rather, who knows?

01:23:49.627 --> 01:23:52.597
Had plenty of, so couldn't cope folded.

01:23:53.347 --> 01:24:00.667
Off made the wrong decision, but there
was no granny, there were no aunts.

01:24:00.667 --> 01:24:10.327
There was no greater sisterhood or
council of elders or to Yeah, and

01:24:10.417 --> 01:24:10.418
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:24:10.417 --> 01:24:14.227
well in, I'm wondering if that's
the greater Yeah, go ahead.

01:24:14.317 --> 01:24:23.137
The greater society here in modern society
in the United States at least, has largely

01:24:23.137 --> 01:24:26.497
evolved into a situation like that.

01:24:26.497 --> 01:24:32.617
There are pockets within,
within this culture where that

01:24:32.677 --> 01:24:34.867
is still strongly supported.

01:24:34.867 --> 01:24:37.207
That tribe mentality
is still but very few.

01:24:37.567 --> 01:24:39.037
Yeah, very few.

01:24:39.037 --> 01:24:49.177
And so everyone almost has that isolation
because there is not that support.

01:24:49.177 --> 01:24:50.677
There are the, there are some.

01:24:51.322 --> 01:24:56.542
Church communities that maybe do
exactly what you were talking about

01:24:56.542 --> 01:25:00.412
where everybody bands together and, and
maybe there's some grumbling, there are

01:25:00.412 --> 01:25:09.022
the elders, there are these somebody
who is able to cause that group of

01:25:09.022 --> 01:25:15.502
people to be more cohesive and, and
more supportive of any one of them.

01:25:17.032 --> 01:25:17.033
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:25:17.032 --> 01:25:17.902
It's cultural too.

01:25:17.902 --> 01:25:21.442
You talked about the Kal Kalari,
the Australian aboriginal culture.

01:25:21.502 --> 01:25:21.622
Yeah.

01:25:21.622 --> 01:25:21.623
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:25:21.622 --> 01:25:22.102
Same thing

01:25:22.102 --> 01:25:22.103
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:25:22.102 --> 01:25:26.992
is very, very much about communal
responsibility for every member.

01:25:27.172 --> 01:25:27.652
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:25:28.252 --> 01:25:28.882
Absolutely.

01:25:29.062 --> 01:25:32.692
And you know, in, in the 25 years or so,
I was living in the USA and particularly

01:25:32.692 --> 01:25:38.302
once we got into this work, I noticed that
often when we're in Texas, so a a certain

01:25:38.302 --> 01:25:42.292
proportion of our, you're in New Mexico
of our clientele was always Hispanic.

01:25:42.652 --> 01:25:44.512
And they often had better outcomes.

01:25:44.827 --> 01:25:48.307
Because there was just more support,
there was more familial support.

01:25:48.577 --> 01:25:48.787
Yep.

01:25:49.927 --> 01:25:51.667
Among the white middle class, very little.

01:25:52.027 --> 01:25:56.077
And where that might have not been true 50
years ago, there'd been more family farms

01:25:56.077 --> 01:25:57.517
that had been more family businesses.

01:25:57.727 --> 01:25:59.257
It just was not the case anymore.

01:25:59.407 --> 01:26:04.477
And I, I, when we first started running
what we call play dates, we never called

01:26:04.477 --> 01:26:06.397
it therapy 'cause we're not therapists.

01:26:06.397 --> 01:26:08.797
And by the way, I never even
met a kid that wanted therapy.

01:26:08.887 --> 01:26:13.147
You know, oh, I'd like some therapy
today, my, you know, no, no.

01:26:13.147 --> 01:26:16.387
They, they might wanna play or go
ride their pony or doesn't mean that

01:26:16.387 --> 01:26:18.307
it can't be therapeutic, but yeah.

01:26:18.487 --> 01:26:21.787
So we've always called it play dates, you
know, and, but I, what, what I noticed

01:26:21.787 --> 01:26:25.377
was, of course, I needed the siblings
there because I didn't know your kid.

01:26:25.377 --> 01:26:25.707
Right.

01:26:25.917 --> 01:26:27.777
Your kid doesn't trust
me, doesn't know me.

01:26:28.497 --> 01:26:31.257
Coming in with an overactive
amygdala full of fear.

01:26:31.527 --> 01:26:35.007
So if I have the brother and the sister
there, they'll give me all sorts of intel.

01:26:35.007 --> 01:26:37.137
Like, don't do this,
make sure you do that.

01:26:37.437 --> 01:26:40.287
She hates this kind of sound or smell.

01:26:40.387 --> 01:26:44.287
She loves that, you know, not that dog
but that dog, you know, blah, blah, blah.

01:26:44.767 --> 01:26:47.352
When it makes the funny noise,
it means this, this is amazing.

01:26:47.497 --> 01:26:50.617
I need all this into, you know, so
it might take me three, four years of

01:26:50.617 --> 01:26:54.457
building relationship before I could,
you know, learn that about somebody.

01:26:54.757 --> 01:26:57.657
So I needed to make things
attractive for the siblings.

01:26:57.687 --> 01:27:02.217
So, of course, let's say there
was a sister generally well riding

01:27:02.217 --> 01:27:03.717
lessons, you know, happening for free.

01:27:03.777 --> 01:27:05.337
You know, that was generally pretty good.

01:27:05.877 --> 01:27:08.757
Maybe the boys didn't care from
horses, but he loved soccer

01:27:08.907 --> 01:27:10.377
or something, or martial arts.

01:27:10.377 --> 01:27:12.897
And I had friends who were
semi-pro soccer coaches.

01:27:13.407 --> 01:27:16.677
I'd ring that guy up and say, I need
you on Tuesday at this play date.

01:27:17.007 --> 01:27:21.717
And so then the brother would
find that he was getting all this

01:27:21.717 --> 01:27:23.182
amazing soccer coaching because.

01:27:24.102 --> 01:27:26.232
Siblings autism, not in spite of.

01:27:26.742 --> 01:27:28.842
And it changed the
dynamic within the family.

01:27:29.242 --> 01:27:33.022
And then the parents were coming
and suddenly saying, oh my gosh, all

01:27:33.022 --> 01:27:34.612
of our kids' needs are being met.

01:27:35.272 --> 01:27:39.562
We can actually have time to reach out
to each other and swap information.

01:27:39.562 --> 01:27:42.292
Because the best information you
always get is from other parents.

01:27:42.662 --> 01:27:43.802
What worked, what didn't work?

01:27:44.582 --> 01:27:49.262
And we realized we'd stumbled into
Tribe and I was doing it partly 'cause

01:27:49.262 --> 01:27:51.062
I was so isolated from my tribe.

01:27:51.632 --> 01:27:53.882
And so I wanted kind of
a social life for my kid.

01:27:53.882 --> 01:27:55.622
I kind of wanted a bit
of a social life for me.

01:27:55.982 --> 01:28:00.072
And I was also curious to see if what we
were doing would work with other kids.

01:28:00.072 --> 01:28:04.822
So I I, I wonder if that's also what you
found that you are doing at Wilder Wood.

01:28:04.852 --> 01:28:09.892
Do you feel that you've actually
also created Tribe there and that

01:28:09.922 --> 01:28:13.402
through these protocols that you're
doing, you're helping to create wider

01:28:13.402 --> 01:28:18.142
tribes, you know, and that wider
supports out now away from Wilder Wood.

01:28:19.672 --> 01:28:19.673
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:28:19.672 --> 01:28:20.572
Yeah, absolutely.

01:28:20.572 --> 01:28:24.872
And it was almost by default particularly
with our research that we've created,

01:28:24.872 --> 01:28:29.852
this community of autistic women who are
connected now through the Radiance and the

01:28:29.852 --> 01:28:36.872
letters and emails that we get outlining
the difference that this has made.

01:28:37.442 --> 01:28:42.122
We got one last week from someone that
we diagnosed two years ago, and you

01:28:42.122 --> 01:28:46.532
know, she was saying since getting the
diagnosis, she's found others like her and

01:28:46.532 --> 01:28:48.692
she's been able to establish an interest.

01:28:48.692 --> 01:28:52.952
And she's halfway through a baccalaureate
program in psychology and she wants

01:28:52.952 --> 01:28:57.452
to go out now and be trained as a
therapist to help other autistic women.

01:28:57.572 --> 01:29:02.942
So she's found that connection and
the thread started with finding

01:29:02.942 --> 01:29:04.502
this community or this tribe.

01:29:05.012 --> 01:29:05.342
So

01:29:06.422 --> 01:29:11.252
Rupert Isaacson: do, do you have plans
to set up some sort of, I mean, training

01:29:11.642 --> 01:29:15.422
where people can learn to do what you do
and then set up effectively Wilder Woods?

01:29:16.187 --> 01:29:17.147
All over the place.

01:29:17.247 --> 01:29:19.017
Not dissimilar to what
we did with horse boy.

01:29:19.017 --> 01:29:20.937
There are horse boy places around.

01:29:21.717 --> 01:29:22.737
That's something that could happen.

01:29:22.767 --> 01:29:24.867
'cause I think there's a need
for what you're talking about

01:29:25.227 --> 01:29:26.367
quite a, quite strongly.

01:29:26.367 --> 01:29:26.487
We

01:29:26.487 --> 01:29:26.488
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:29:26.487 --> 01:29:29.127
certainly, well, I
appreciate you saying that.

01:29:29.127 --> 01:29:33.567
I think I look at the things
that people like you do Rupert,

01:29:33.567 --> 01:29:35.187
and I'm just in awe of you.

01:29:35.907 --> 01:29:37.677
I think what you do is amazing.

01:29:37.737 --> 01:29:41.907
I think you're an in incredible
inspiration and what you've done

01:29:41.907 --> 01:29:45.537
for your son and with your son
and by extension, the autistic and

01:29:45.537 --> 01:29:49.467
the A DHD community is incredible.

01:29:49.542 --> 01:29:49.862
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

01:29:50.367 --> 01:29:50.368
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:29:50.367 --> 01:29:57.207
I don't know that I have the
energy or the drive to do that.

01:29:57.987 --> 01:30:01.017
I think that getting the
radiance out there is important.

01:30:01.347 --> 01:30:01.377
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:30:01.377 --> 01:30:01.677
I think

01:30:01.677 --> 01:30:01.678
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:30:01.677 --> 01:30:04.377
training clinicians in how
to use it is important.

01:30:05.547 --> 01:30:11.547
But I think that offering what I do
here and having the opportunity to

01:30:11.547 --> 01:30:13.557
talk with other like-minded people.

01:30:14.682 --> 01:30:19.002
Is also very important, but
multiple Wilder Woods, I'm not sure.

01:30:20.202 --> 01:30:20.242
I don't think so.

01:30:20.242 --> 01:30:22.152
Well, I wonder if that's something
that will happen indirectly.

01:30:22.152 --> 01:30:22.602
Rupert Isaacson: It doesn't.

01:30:22.722 --> 01:30:25.782
I mean, it doesn't have to happen through
like a certification program or something.

01:30:25.782 --> 01:30:29.292
But I, I just wonder if that, because
surely, you know, when you're going

01:30:29.292 --> 01:30:33.642
out there and talking to other
women with your condition, you are

01:30:33.642 --> 01:30:36.672
probably at some point saying to
them, Hey, listen, you need support.

01:30:37.572 --> 01:30:39.732
And here are some tips
for how to find it, right?

01:30:40.662 --> 01:30:40.663
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:30:40.662 --> 01:30:41.832
Yeah, absolutely.

01:30:41.832 --> 01:30:47.862
And I really like the idea of other
autistic people going out and creating

01:30:48.522 --> 01:30:52.962
other elements or other parts or other
components that they've taken from

01:30:52.962 --> 01:30:57.492
it, rather than, you know, me and Mark
being sort of the, the ones doing it.

01:30:57.492 --> 01:31:00.672
I like the idea of it spreading
through the community.

01:31:00.672 --> 01:31:00.762
Right.

01:31:00.762 --> 01:31:03.852
And the community taking
responsibility for it.

01:31:04.432 --> 01:31:08.122
You know, rather than the more
individualistic, oh, this is Mark's

01:31:08.122 --> 01:31:11.302
and my program and, you know, we're
going to, you know, teach others.

01:31:11.302 --> 01:31:11.782
No.

01:31:11.992 --> 01:31:14.122
Take what, what you've learned from us.

01:31:14.602 --> 01:31:19.732
Reject what you don't like and go out and
do something in your part of the community

01:31:19.732 --> 01:31:22.282
so we can create and spread this.

01:31:22.312 --> 01:31:22.313
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:31:22.312 --> 01:31:22.492
Yeah.

01:31:22.492 --> 01:31:27.092
This is an interesting thing that
we've also experienced is people,

01:31:27.092 --> 01:31:32.502
for instance, we, we put on a a
community event in Albuquerque.

01:31:32.502 --> 01:31:35.092
It was called Fest last year.

01:31:35.247 --> 01:31:37.157
And I saw some stuff
on it on your website.

01:31:37.157 --> 01:31:37.847
Yeah, it looked great.

01:31:38.507 --> 01:31:38.987
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.

01:31:39.047 --> 01:31:39.048
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:31:39.047 --> 01:31:40.427
It was, it was great.

01:31:40.667 --> 01:31:45.317
And there were some of the, some of
the people who made comments on a

01:31:45.317 --> 01:31:48.827
Facebook or something like that, that
were saying, well, you could have

01:31:48.827 --> 01:31:52.367
done this and you could have done
that, and why didn't you do this?

01:31:53.717 --> 01:31:59.292
Our response to each other in our kitchen
or in the was, why don't you do it?

01:32:00.632 --> 01:32:01.572
We did this.

01:32:02.952 --> 01:32:04.787
You go ahead and do that.

01:32:05.027 --> 01:32:06.107
That's your idea.

01:32:06.287 --> 01:32:07.007
Go for it.

01:32:07.657 --> 01:32:14.137
Because what ends up happening in a lot
of these instances is people like you,

01:32:14.137 --> 01:32:27.247
Rupert, people like Rebecca are amazing
people and are looked at for that drive.

01:32:28.987 --> 01:32:39.457
It is, to some degree very, very inspiring
to others who somehow don't have the

01:32:39.457 --> 01:32:45.157
same intellectual, mental capacities.

01:32:47.527 --> 01:32:55.147
Because there is a spectrum of that
within humanity and those who are

01:32:55.897 --> 01:33:06.607
part of the tribe and yet do not
have certain attributes that allow

01:33:06.607 --> 01:33:13.267
them to do those things with facility

01:33:16.447 --> 01:33:17.857
end up dropping the ball.

01:33:17.857 --> 01:33:23.167
It's, it's sort of like if there
was in, in religions there is the

01:33:23.167 --> 01:33:28.597
guy who is the Buddha who is the
enlightened one, or the Christ who is

01:33:28.597 --> 01:33:33.217
the enlightened one, and then there's
the people who were immediately

01:33:33.217 --> 01:33:41.012
around that person and they sort of
get it, but not like that person did.

01:33:43.632 --> 01:33:50.332
And after about two or three iterations
down the road, it becomes like the

01:33:50.332 --> 01:33:56.182
whisper game where we're whispering
a sentence to someone and that

01:33:56.182 --> 01:33:58.072
sentence goes around the circle.

01:33:58.372 --> 01:34:01.312
It's not the same sentence by
the time it gets back, because

01:34:01.582 --> 01:34:03.022
you know what you're doing.

01:34:04.072 --> 01:34:10.732
Rebecca knows what she's doing,
and you do it very, very well.

01:34:12.562 --> 01:34:18.877
And then it slightly gets diluted
or changed a little bit and then

01:34:18.877 --> 01:34:20.572
it gets changed a little bit more.

01:34:21.052 --> 01:34:22.192
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I agree.

01:34:22.372 --> 01:34:23.902
That's an organic process, right?

01:34:23.932 --> 01:34:25.252
And I, I think, yeah.

01:34:25.412 --> 01:34:27.212
You know, this used to
keep us up at night.

01:34:27.632 --> 01:34:28.292
Years ago.

01:34:28.872 --> 01:34:30.372
And then we realized well hold on.

01:34:30.462 --> 01:34:33.462
In that case, if this is, if this
is keeping us up at night, then

01:34:33.462 --> 01:34:36.972
that means we need to simplify
what, what, what does what, what's

01:34:36.972 --> 01:34:38.532
the simplification of what we do?

01:34:39.012 --> 01:34:40.722
Because there's all these
different nuances, right?

01:34:41.502 --> 01:34:44.142
And we realized that
there's just this one thing.

01:34:44.202 --> 01:34:48.402
If you're doing it, you'll probably be
successful and you could take any of the

01:34:48.402 --> 01:34:51.402
tools that we offer and run with them.

01:34:51.402 --> 01:34:54.672
And that's why like our programs,
they're just, they're just toolkits.

01:34:54.882 --> 01:34:56.832
They're just like saying,
here's a bunch of tools.

01:34:57.372 --> 01:34:59.412
You're probably already doing
something pretty awesome.

01:34:59.412 --> 01:35:01.482
'cause a lot of people that we
train are, you know, already

01:35:01.722 --> 01:35:02.712
doing good things, right?

01:35:03.062 --> 01:35:04.472
Don't change what you're doing.

01:35:05.162 --> 01:35:07.442
Here are just some tools
that you might find useful.

01:35:07.622 --> 01:35:11.792
You know, the, the one, so there's
one thing that allows those tools

01:35:11.792 --> 01:35:13.712
to be used, and that's the ethic.

01:35:14.042 --> 01:35:15.572
It starts with the autistic person.

01:35:15.572 --> 01:35:16.652
It starts with Temple Grandin.

01:35:17.102 --> 01:35:22.742
And the advice I got, which we never
deviated from, which is follow the child.

01:35:23.582 --> 01:35:23.822
Yeah.

01:35:23.972 --> 01:35:24.102
That's great.

01:35:24.102 --> 01:35:25.017
And so as long as you're doing that.

01:35:25.967 --> 01:35:26.747
You know what I mean?

01:35:27.587 --> 01:35:27.887
Yeah.

01:35:29.177 --> 01:35:31.487
Because, because then it, because
then it's not about horses.

01:35:31.487 --> 01:35:34.577
If the kid's not into horses, but
he's into balloons and bicycles and

01:35:34.577 --> 01:35:37.667
Minecraft, I'm all about balloons
and bicycles and Minecraft, you know?

01:35:37.667 --> 01:35:37.847
Yeah.

01:35:37.847 --> 01:35:38.242
There you go.

01:35:38.627 --> 01:35:42.167
Then the horse is my therapy so that
I can put up balloons and bicycles

01:35:42.167 --> 01:35:45.887
and Minecraft, which I don't find
interesting, but I can, I can mask and,

01:35:46.007 --> 01:35:49.277
you know, pretend to find it interesting
to, 'cause I'm interested in that kid.

01:35:49.907 --> 01:35:52.252
But then the horse is actually
helping me more than the horse is

01:35:52.252 --> 01:35:53.507
helping, but it's Follow the child.

01:35:53.507 --> 01:35:55.997
Follow the child, follow the
child, and it, it, it sounds like

01:35:55.997 --> 01:35:59.897
basically that's what a lot of the
radiance is coming down to, which is

01:36:00.347 --> 01:36:00.348
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:36:00.347 --> 01:36:00.827
Yes.

01:36:00.947 --> 01:36:01.367
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:36:02.747 --> 01:36:05.327
Absolutely follow, yes,
follow the artistic autistic

01:36:05.387 --> 01:36:05.388
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:36:05.387 --> 01:36:05.717
woman.

01:36:05.717 --> 01:36:06.167
Right.

01:36:06.677 --> 01:36:07.037
Right.

01:36:07.367 --> 01:36:10.307
Rupert Isaacson: And then if there is
a bit of a process of, as you said,

01:36:10.307 --> 01:36:15.767
Chinese whispers down down the line,
if, if, if, if you build that in to re

01:36:15.767 --> 01:36:17.777
the radiance and it seems that you are.

01:36:18.902 --> 01:36:21.662
Then it just becomes a great
toolkit that any anyone can use.

01:36:21.662 --> 01:36:24.452
And yeah, sure, some people might use
it better than others, but, but at

01:36:24.452 --> 01:36:27.452
least it's there and at least it's
an improvement on the status quo.

01:36:28.052 --> 01:36:31.532
You know, and, and that, and you know,
you, you've gotta follow yourself as well

01:36:31.632 --> 01:36:36.042
Rebecca, so, you know, you always thinking
back to yourself as that 15-year-old

01:36:36.042 --> 01:36:40.842
girl, would this, could this have improved
things if it had been around back then?

01:36:41.022 --> 01:36:41.862
The answer is for sure.

01:36:41.982 --> 01:36:42.522
Oh God.

01:36:42.582 --> 01:36:43.547
Oh, oh God, yes.

01:36:44.862 --> 01:36:45.552
Oh God, yes.

01:36:46.302 --> 01:36:46.632
You know?

01:36:47.442 --> 01:36:47.862
Yeah.

01:36:48.402 --> 01:36:51.162
And it's been good for the world that you
went through that story because you've

01:36:51.162 --> 01:36:52.302
done something really good with it.

01:36:52.512 --> 01:36:55.212
But you know, as well as I do
that not every girl has the, has

01:36:55.212 --> 01:36:57.132
the same outcome that you had.

01:36:57.822 --> 01:37:00.942
And we, we don't want every
girl to have to go through that.

01:37:01.062 --> 01:37:01.332
No.

01:37:02.202 --> 01:37:02.203
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:37:02.202 --> 01:37:02.472
Right?

01:37:02.982 --> 01:37:03.192
Rupert Isaacson: No.

01:37:03.492 --> 01:37:05.017
So I massively appreciate
what you're doing.

01:37:07.407 --> 01:37:07.408
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:37:07.407 --> 01:37:11.877
Likewise, we're pretty much in awe of
you and what you continue to accomplish

01:37:12.087 --> 01:37:16.077
and have accomplished, and we're just
quite, well, I can't speak for Mark,

01:37:16.077 --> 01:37:21.837
but I was quite amazed that why does
Rupert Isaacson want to talk to me?

01:37:23.817 --> 01:37:24.087
We all in

01:37:24.087 --> 01:37:24.897
Rupert Isaacson: this field.

01:37:25.677 --> 01:37:29.397
And he, you know, 'cause there was a
time, you know this, Rebecca, I mean, 10

01:37:29.397 --> 01:37:33.297
years ago we were all getting laughed at
and you were just playing with ponies.

01:37:33.297 --> 01:37:35.847
And my answer to that was,
and what's wrong with that?

01:37:37.857 --> 01:37:41.877
But then I realized, yeah, then maybe I
better go talk to some neuroscientists and

01:37:41.877 --> 01:37:43.437
find out actually why that's a good thing.

01:37:43.587 --> 01:37:46.587
So that when people said that to
me, I could say, okay, so here's

01:37:46.587 --> 01:37:48.747
what's going on in the brain when
you do this and here's what's going

01:37:48.747 --> 01:37:49.647
on in the body and you do this.

01:37:49.647 --> 01:37:50.832
And then they go, oh, oh, oh.

01:37:50.997 --> 01:37:53.577
And then I could say, so where did
you get your degree in neuroscience?

01:37:54.372 --> 01:37:58.542
So you, you clearly, you know, and then
that changed the thing completely when

01:37:58.542 --> 01:38:01.872
they got on board, but we had to be
laughed at for years before we got there.

01:38:02.052 --> 01:38:03.612
So, no, why do I want to talk to you?

01:38:03.612 --> 01:38:07.757
Because you're improving the
field guys, and you are, you

01:38:07.757 --> 01:38:09.612
are, you're getting the job done.

01:38:10.572 --> 01:38:11.532
And I respect that.

01:38:11.532 --> 01:38:15.972
And, and I want to, and I want to
big you up and I want people to know

01:38:15.972 --> 01:38:23.322
about you because we're all gonna be
dead someday, and this has to go on.

01:38:24.072 --> 01:38:29.712
We can't, we can't be going back to
where things were 20, 25 years ago.

01:38:29.982 --> 01:38:30.312
No.

01:38:30.732 --> 01:38:31.092
Mm-hmm.

01:38:31.782 --> 01:38:37.752
So the fact that you guys are advancing
the field in this thoughtful way and

01:38:37.752 --> 01:38:42.732
devoting your lives and your resources
to this is incredibly important.

01:38:42.732 --> 01:38:44.112
Of course, I want to talk to you.

01:38:44.322 --> 01:38:44.772
Of course.

01:38:44.772 --> 01:38:45.262
I Well, thank you.

01:38:46.182 --> 01:38:49.632
To know about it's, yeah.

01:38:50.022 --> 01:38:50.412
Yeah.

01:38:50.892 --> 01:38:51.822
It goes without saying.

01:38:52.422 --> 01:38:55.362
By the way, there's an unsung
hero in all our programs.

01:38:55.672 --> 01:39:00.282
And that is Ileana Lawrence who is
my wife, and who is the person who's

01:39:00.282 --> 01:39:05.712
responsible for the systematization
of these things so that they can be

01:39:05.742 --> 01:39:08.742
really taught and really replicated.

01:39:08.862 --> 01:39:12.227
And she's super modest and she won't
ever come on a podcast and she won't,

01:39:12.227 --> 01:39:13.967
you know, but were it not for her?

01:39:13.967 --> 01:39:15.047
No, this wouldn't be happening.

01:39:15.597 --> 01:39:18.237
So it's not all me by any
stretch of the imagination.

01:39:18.597 --> 01:39:21.087
I happened to, if I had one
good idea, I had one good idea.

01:39:21.087 --> 01:39:22.767
And that was, I went to
talk to Temple Grandin.

01:39:23.157 --> 01:39:26.787
And then my second good idea was I said,
yeah, I'm gonna follow that advice.

01:39:27.507 --> 01:39:30.807
But I can't say that was
through any natural talent.

01:39:31.077 --> 01:39:32.937
That was just, that was just common sense.

01:39:32.937 --> 01:39:38.727
It's like there's someone who, who has
the knowledge go to that person, try it.

01:39:38.877 --> 01:39:39.537
Does it work?

01:39:39.567 --> 01:39:40.287
Oh, it works.

01:39:40.317 --> 01:39:41.007
Keep doing it.

01:39:42.057 --> 01:39:44.697
And I think, yeah, we are,
we're all in this boat.

01:39:46.407 --> 01:39:51.627
We had a breakthrough last year with
our programs in Ireland where there's an

01:39:51.627 --> 01:39:56.367
amazing man who you need to be aware of
called David Doyle, who's an autism dad,

01:39:56.397 --> 01:40:03.807
who started amazing work all over Ireland
and based around the situation he found

01:40:03.807 --> 01:40:06.457
himself in with his daughter 30 years ago.

01:40:07.147 --> 01:40:13.507
And he proved at the place that he got
going called Li Skint in County Limerick.

01:40:13.957 --> 01:40:14.947
Look it up, Liz Kennet.

01:40:15.367 --> 01:40:16.717
I'll send you a, a link.

01:40:17.287 --> 01:40:22.102
That using movement method with
autistic adults who were violent and

01:40:22.102 --> 01:40:28.677
who often needed up to four minders,
you know, by the time a someone's six

01:40:28.677 --> 01:40:35.907
foot four and 250 pounds, and is so
frustrated and so boiling over with.

01:40:37.377 --> 01:40:39.057
30 years sensory stuff.

01:40:39.057 --> 01:40:42.387
And, you know, you know, the, the
score that anyway, that with, with

01:40:42.387 --> 01:40:44.967
this over five years, they could bring
that number of minders down to one.

01:40:45.147 --> 01:40:49.377
And that of course saved the government
over a million euros per person.

01:40:49.377 --> 01:40:49.437
Wow.

01:40:50.217 --> 01:40:54.327
And after five years of collecting the
data, finally the Minister of Health

01:40:54.327 --> 01:40:57.447
and Disability in Ireland, it's amazing
they have a minister of disability.

01:40:57.997 --> 01:41:01.957
Yeah, really it's incredible, eh
when, you know what, the data's good

01:41:02.257 --> 01:41:08.137
and they got behind it, this was
fif 20, almost 20, between 15 and 20

01:41:08.137 --> 01:41:09.307
years into the work we were doing.

01:41:09.367 --> 01:41:14.497
And then that begins to have a knock on
effect within the eu, eu, which then has

01:41:14.497 --> 01:41:18.257
a knock on effect back to the uk, which
then has a knock on effect back to the us.

01:41:18.287 --> 01:41:22.637
'cause as you know, you're never
an authority in your own backyard.

01:41:23.057 --> 01:41:25.817
You know, your stuff will
be adopted in Germany.

01:41:26.267 --> 01:41:28.697
You're right across the usa.

01:41:28.697 --> 01:41:29.537
It's just how it goes.

01:41:29.867 --> 01:41:30.167
Oh yeah.

01:41:30.362 --> 01:41:30.652
Yeah.

01:41:30.757 --> 01:41:33.427
And that's the other reason why we
all need to be talking and that's why

01:41:33.427 --> 01:41:36.547
we need podcasts like this, because
we need to be aware of each other.

01:41:36.877 --> 01:41:38.497
Because I'm going to be talking.

01:41:38.557 --> 01:41:42.457
So we have what's so for listeners, you're
gonna be listening to this whenever,

01:41:42.457 --> 01:41:45.797
but this happens to be July of 2025.

01:41:45.797 --> 01:41:49.637
So in August of 2025, we'll be having
what we call our Horse Boy Tribe Day.

01:41:49.877 --> 01:41:53.297
We should really call it tribe Days
'cause it's over a long weekend and

01:41:53.297 --> 01:41:55.187
we get together internationally.

01:41:55.247 --> 01:41:58.927
And this year it's in one of our places
in Ireland, a place called Stewart's Care.

01:41:59.227 --> 01:42:00.907
Kil Coon, just outside of Dublin.

01:42:01.627 --> 01:42:05.347
Well, I'm gonna be talking about
your, and I'm gonna be saying go

01:42:05.347 --> 01:42:09.037
check that out, because that's what
we all rely on each other to do.

01:42:09.037 --> 01:42:10.057
We're like, how?

01:42:10.057 --> 01:42:10.807
I wouldn't know this.

01:42:10.807 --> 01:42:13.417
I didn't found out about you
because of our mutual friend.

01:42:13.527 --> 01:42:14.007
Lisa Deon.

01:42:14.412 --> 01:42:14.702
Lisa.

01:42:14.707 --> 01:42:14.997
Lisa.

01:42:15.087 --> 01:42:15.088
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:42:15.087 --> 01:42:15.477
Yeah.

01:42:16.197 --> 01:42:19.497
Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, if
you haven't heard my podcast with

01:42:19.497 --> 01:42:22.977
Elisa Deon, who does the Echos Film
Festival, so over on my live free, ride

01:42:22.977 --> 01:42:24.567
free podcast, go and check her out.

01:42:24.747 --> 01:42:30.767
She's an amazing human being with
a heart about as big as Oh yeah.

01:42:30.947 --> 01:42:34.887
Chicago, where she comes from,
and she turned me onto your back

01:42:34.887 --> 01:42:36.927
in April, said, Rupert, you've
gotta check these people out.

01:42:37.887 --> 01:42:37.888
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:42:37.887 --> 01:42:37.927
Oh, wow.

01:42:38.067 --> 01:42:38.277
Yeah.

01:42:38.277 --> 01:42:38.427
And

01:42:38.427 --> 01:42:41.457
Rupert Isaacson: if Lisa tells me, I
take her word for it, you know, so I

01:42:41.457 --> 01:42:43.947
looked you all up and I went, oh yeah,
no, they're, they're the real deal.

01:42:43.947 --> 01:42:44.487
They're doing it.

01:42:44.667 --> 01:42:48.117
But without her turning me onto
you, I wouldn't have known,

01:42:48.957 --> 01:42:50.547
you know, we're been too much,

01:42:51.387 --> 01:42:51.388
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:42:51.387 --> 01:42:51.837
too much

01:42:51.837 --> 01:42:52.857
Rupert Isaacson: information out there.

01:42:52.857 --> 01:42:52.917
We're

01:42:53.352 --> 01:42:53.353
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:42:53.352 --> 01:42:55.797
back, back to tribe again
and tribal communication.

01:42:55.797 --> 01:42:55.917
That's

01:42:55.917 --> 01:42:56.187
Rupert Isaacson: right.

01:42:57.447 --> 01:43:00.267
So, back to putting stuff out in the
world, you've also written a book.

01:43:00.747 --> 01:43:01.467
Tell us about the book.

01:43:01.472 --> 01:43:01.592
Yes.

01:43:03.177 --> 01:43:03.178
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:43:03.177 --> 01:43:08.427
Oh, it's, so, it was, I wrote it at the
urging of Mark because my, my attitude

01:43:08.427 --> 01:43:10.347
was, well, who wants to know about me?

01:43:10.467 --> 01:43:11.817
Nobody's interested in me.

01:43:11.817 --> 01:43:13.407
Rupert Isaacson: That was still,
that's still your attitude.

01:43:13.482 --> 01:43:13.962
That's just my attitude.

01:43:13.967 --> 01:43:16.557
Well, the thing is where you're
right about that honestly, is

01:43:16.557 --> 01:43:17.637
they're not interested in you.

01:43:17.697 --> 01:43:18.777
They're interested in your story.

01:43:20.217 --> 01:43:22.137
When people read the horse, boy,
they're not interested in me.

01:43:22.437 --> 01:43:23.667
They're interested in the story.

01:43:23.667 --> 01:43:26.217
So you are right in a way, but
you do have a very good story.

01:43:26.217 --> 01:43:27.237
So tell us the story.

01:43:28.257 --> 01:43:28.258
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:43:28.257 --> 01:43:30.957
Well, it's just basically what I,
what I went over earlier today.

01:43:30.957 --> 01:43:35.727
It's just the story of what happened to
me and that I was basically abandoned.

01:43:35.977 --> 01:43:40.387
Gave up on, I had a grade nine
education or autistic, no family,

01:43:40.387 --> 01:43:42.342
no support, no money, no nothing.

01:43:43.207 --> 01:43:47.627
And I kind of, worked my way through
it and, you know, ended up going

01:43:47.627 --> 01:43:51.947
back to school and getting now four
degrees and, and doing what I do.

01:43:51.947 --> 01:43:55.787
And it was the, basically that
was the story and interwoven

01:43:55.787 --> 01:43:57.497
through that, how horses.

01:43:57.947 --> 01:44:02.177
And my love of horses and my
ability to connect with horses

01:44:03.707 --> 01:44:09.407
probably saved me because it
was the one constant in my life.

01:44:09.437 --> 01:44:12.617
If I didn't have a horse,
I was reading about them.

01:44:12.617 --> 01:44:13.967
I was thinking about them.

01:44:13.967 --> 01:44:16.337
I was, I had them in my heart.

01:44:16.397 --> 01:44:21.377
They have been a constant throughout
my life, and I'm so incredibly

01:44:21.377 --> 01:44:25.487
grateful to this guy beside me for
opening up the opportunity where

01:44:25.487 --> 01:44:30.167
I can now and have for the past
12 years, lived again with horses.

01:44:30.707 --> 01:44:30.708
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:44:30.707 --> 01:44:36.947
This, well, one other thing that I
wanna put out four in the context of,

01:44:37.037 --> 01:44:42.677
of the, the book, that was an unspoken
thing, but something that Rebecca

01:44:42.677 --> 01:44:50.357
and I have both talked about is this
concept of learned helplessness.

01:44:50.357 --> 01:44:56.447
An ironic concept that people.

01:44:57.047 --> 01:45:05.897
Whether autistic or not, who have certain
things that are accommodated for them,

01:45:07.337 --> 01:45:14.657
actually don't learn as well how to do
those things because it's easier for them.

01:45:15.347 --> 01:45:15.707
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

01:45:16.127 --> 01:45:16.128
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:45:16.127 --> 01:45:21.947
Rather than going through what Rebecca had
to go through, because that was her life.

01:45:22.967 --> 01:45:27.707
She did not learn helplessness.

01:45:27.767 --> 01:45:29.867
She had to find ways.

01:45:30.347 --> 01:45:37.637
Her executive function is very poor,
but she had to compensate by having

01:45:38.027 --> 01:45:45.587
three different memory devices for
moleskin, her diary and a second set

01:45:45.677 --> 01:45:49.087
of on the computer of calendaring.

01:45:49.787 --> 01:45:51.287
That, that she.

01:45:51.947 --> 01:46:00.167
Invented for herself out of
necessity if she hadn't learned and

01:46:00.167 --> 01:46:05.357
taught herself to do that because
there was no one else around.

01:46:06.047 --> 01:46:06.048
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:46:06.047 --> 01:46:06.407
Hmm.

01:46:06.827 --> 01:46:06.828
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:46:06.827 --> 01:46:11.207
She would not be here with me today.

01:46:11.207 --> 01:46:17.987
And I reinforce this fairly often,
this concept of learned helplessness

01:46:18.287 --> 01:46:31.097
is intermingling with societies that
first world societies that so easy to

01:46:31.187 --> 01:46:33.947
get just about anything you desire.

01:46:36.057 --> 01:46:36.657
Rupert Isaacson: Things Yes.

01:46:37.077 --> 01:46:39.687
I mean that you desire, I mean
it's, it's rendering neurotypicals,

01:46:39.687 --> 01:46:42.727
helpless that is, that is accurate.

01:46:42.847 --> 01:46:44.167
The, the, that is accurate.

01:46:44.422 --> 01:46:46.177
The, the assumption that everything.

01:46:46.717 --> 01:46:48.487
Is gonna be at your
fingertips all the time.

01:46:48.487 --> 01:46:49.207
Means that yeah.

01:46:49.207 --> 01:46:49.327
Don't

01:46:49.897 --> 01:46:49.898
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:46:49.897 --> 01:46:50.077
work.

01:46:50.082 --> 01:46:55.057
And you going, yeah, you going to the
Kalahari or me going out backpacking

01:46:55.057 --> 01:47:01.087
in the, in the mountains of New Mexico
or Colorado and getting lost sometimes

01:47:01.087 --> 01:47:07.177
on purpose so that I'm challenged.

01:47:08.107 --> 01:47:12.097
And you were challenged because
the hyenas are out there.

01:47:12.307 --> 01:47:13.467
Oh yeah, they are.

01:47:14.197 --> 01:47:18.487
And, and that's the
metaphor for all of it.

01:47:18.607 --> 01:47:25.177
In the first world, the hyenas are the
bankers and the, and the businessmen.

01:47:25.477 --> 01:47:31.777
And, and they are the ones
who are there waiting.

01:47:33.607 --> 01:47:37.567
Rupert Isaacson: Get this to take in
the hunter gatherer context, which is

01:47:37.897 --> 01:47:39.757
the authentic human context, right?

01:47:40.177 --> 01:47:40.178
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:47:40.177 --> 01:47:40.417
Mm-hmm.

01:47:41.557 --> 01:47:44.467
Rupert Isaacson: The predator is never.

01:47:45.187 --> 01:47:48.127
I repeat Never your fellow human.

01:47:49.147 --> 01:47:49.447
Hmm.

01:47:49.987 --> 01:47:51.007
They don't kill each other.

01:47:52.327 --> 01:47:54.607
They don't pray upon
each other in those ways.

01:47:54.937 --> 01:47:59.467
If that comes in after they're displaced,
then society breaks down and then

01:47:59.467 --> 01:48:00.637
they do those things to each other.

01:48:01.597 --> 01:48:01.598
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:48:01.597 --> 01:48:01.777
Hmm.

01:48:01.777 --> 01:48:02.017
But

01:48:02.407 --> 01:48:06.277
Rupert Isaacson: when things are going
authentically, it's actually, it's

01:48:06.667 --> 01:48:10.957
so, human culture is actually in its
authentic sense, a culture of conflict.

01:48:10.957 --> 01:48:13.267
Resolution not, yes.

01:48:13.357 --> 01:48:14.437
Of conflict creation.

01:48:14.647 --> 01:48:20.767
Now we live in a society where the
only predator is our fellow human.

01:48:21.307 --> 01:48:23.377
And that bens us nuts.

01:48:23.737 --> 01:48:24.877
Because it is nuts.

01:48:25.507 --> 01:48:28.117
And that means that even if you're
a neurotypical, it's no holy grail.

01:48:28.117 --> 01:48:31.117
You're, you, you're, you're
going mad with absolutely that

01:48:31.117 --> 01:48:34.267
kind of psychological pain.

01:48:34.297 --> 01:48:37.237
'cause you're living in the
world that's as it should not be.

01:48:37.927 --> 01:48:40.837
And a part of your subconscious
is like, this is wrong.

01:48:42.112 --> 01:48:45.082
And I think everybody has that
voice screaming all the time,

01:48:46.012 --> 01:48:48.892
but you might not even know why,
because you're so far removed.

01:48:48.892 --> 01:48:49.642
It's not your fault.

01:48:50.212 --> 01:48:52.842
This learned helplessness thing
is so interesting because one

01:48:52.842 --> 01:48:53.982
does need to be taught skills.

01:48:55.332 --> 01:48:58.902
And it's so interesting in those
hunter gatherer context, kids

01:48:58.902 --> 01:49:02.472
are given absolutely, absolutely
unconditional, unconditional love.

01:49:02.712 --> 01:49:03.837
They're always carried on the body.

01:49:04.032 --> 01:49:06.582
You're not gonna put 'em down
where there's snakes and scorpions.

01:49:06.882 --> 01:49:11.052
They're always between two adults
at night because if you put them on

01:49:11.052 --> 01:49:14.712
the other side of a high highness
will come in and they will take

01:49:14.712 --> 01:49:16.512
your kid and you will not wake up.

01:49:16.662 --> 01:49:17.622
They know how to do that.

01:49:17.712 --> 01:49:20.982
So you wouldn't dream of putting
them even half a meter away from you.

01:49:21.882 --> 01:49:25.142
They'll take your boots if you take
your boots off, you know, and it's

01:49:25.142 --> 01:49:28.412
also below freezing at night, so you're
gonna have the child here and then it

01:49:28.412 --> 01:49:31.062
will graduate to a pack of siblings
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:49:31.352 --> 01:49:37.352
But what's so weird with that level of
support is that when they reach about 16.

01:49:38.222 --> 01:49:43.892
They can take a spear, go into the
bush, dodge all the dangerous stuff,

01:49:44.222 --> 01:49:46.532
come back with a meal for everybody.

01:49:46.892 --> 01:49:53.882
Two years after that they can go down to
Johannesburg in the city and get a job in

01:49:53.882 --> 01:49:57.212
the mines, learn to speak eight languages,
suddenly learn to be a mechanic.

01:49:57.242 --> 01:49:59.912
'cause they've just kind of looked
at their powers of observation are

01:49:59.912 --> 01:50:03.632
so good from tracking, they can just
kind of, oh yeah, yeah, I can do that.

01:50:03.632 --> 01:50:06.332
And then they learn to fix
trucks and so on, and it happens.

01:50:06.332 --> 01:50:07.052
Boom, boom, boom, boom.

01:50:07.052 --> 01:50:11.222
So it seems that this total
sequence in the early stages

01:50:11.222 --> 01:50:13.802
leads to total independence later.

01:50:13.802 --> 01:50:18.472
We seem to have it the other way round and
that, you know, let the kid cry it out.

01:50:18.472 --> 01:50:21.172
You know, make them be tough early.

01:50:21.562 --> 01:50:24.232
And of course it just leaves them
with great psychological holes.

01:50:24.232 --> 01:50:28.012
I mean, I'm, any of us that we
then have to fill in with things

01:50:28.012 --> 01:50:29.272
like alcohol and whatever.

01:50:29.692 --> 01:50:31.282
So it's different type
of learned helplessness.

01:50:31.342 --> 01:50:31.792
I agree.

01:50:31.822 --> 01:50:33.532
And that seems to come
down to tribe again.

01:50:33.532 --> 01:50:37.732
And would you not agree that because
you wouldn't want everyone to have to

01:50:37.732 --> 01:50:41.212
go through what Rebecca went through
because there'd be a, a wastage

01:50:41.212 --> 01:50:44.662
and a casualty and attrition rate
there that no, we don't want that.

01:50:45.302 --> 01:50:45.303
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:50:45.302 --> 01:50:46.742
I would not recommend it, no.

01:50:47.162 --> 01:50:51.302
Rupert Isaacson: But what if the
horses can help us with that?

01:50:51.932 --> 01:50:56.702
'cause horses, as you know, well,
they're gonna give you that feedback.

01:50:57.512 --> 01:50:57.722
Yes.

01:50:57.722 --> 01:50:58.772
And you're gonna make mistakes.

01:50:58.772 --> 01:51:01.712
And sometimes you get clunked and
sometimes you, you're gonna have to modify

01:51:01.712 --> 01:51:05.822
your behavior around them 'cause they
just are and they're gonna teach you.

01:51:07.382 --> 01:51:11.252
So with programs like yours, I think,
you know, you can take someone who

01:51:11.372 --> 01:51:17.972
might've been in Rebecca's or might be
in Rebecca's situation and say, we are

01:51:17.972 --> 01:51:19.952
not gonna give you do everything for you.

01:51:21.212 --> 01:51:25.982
And it's not learned helplessness, but it
is a safe container where you can Right.

01:51:26.192 --> 01:51:26.612
Do that.

01:51:27.917 --> 01:51:27.918
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:51:27.917 --> 01:51:28.187
Educate.

01:51:28.187 --> 01:51:28.397
Yes.

01:51:28.397 --> 01:51:29.477
And that's, yeah.

01:51:29.627 --> 01:51:37.357
The the youth programs that we've had are
basically doing that here is, there's the

01:51:37.357 --> 01:51:42.157
horse, here's the rope he has a halter on.

01:51:43.567 --> 01:51:45.247
We're gonna let you figure
out how to catch him.

01:51:49.387 --> 01:51:49.682
Go ahead.

01:51:50.257 --> 01:51:50.557
Yeah.

01:51:51.992 --> 01:51:58.897
But, but it's not, it's not, it's not
Desmond because they'll never catch him.

01:51:59.977 --> 01:52:06.337
It's digger who is, is happy to be
caught, but he'll walk a little bit away.

01:52:07.777 --> 01:52:10.237
And then someone would graduate.

01:52:10.297 --> 01:52:10.298
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:52:10.297 --> 01:52:10.957
To Desmond.

01:52:11.017 --> 01:52:11.018
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:52:11.017 --> 01:52:11.917
To Desmond.

01:52:12.487 --> 01:52:12.787
Yeah.

01:52:13.357 --> 01:52:19.537
So that, so that it is
an attainable task, but.

01:52:19.957 --> 01:52:25.987
You hand a rope to someone and say,
for that has never been around a horse

01:52:26.167 --> 01:52:33.937
before and maybe has here, been here one
time, adult or child, it doesn't matter.

01:52:36.157 --> 01:52:36.877
Here's your rope.

01:52:38.317 --> 01:52:39.217
There's the horse.

01:52:39.372 --> 01:52:39.662
Yeah.

01:52:43.357 --> 01:52:43.567
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:52:43.567 --> 01:52:43.882
What are you gonna dig?

01:52:45.032 --> 01:52:47.197
And you're gonna learn to
help yourself starting here.

01:52:47.197 --> 01:52:48.787
And there'll be no,
there'll be no punishments.

01:52:48.847 --> 01:52:51.787
If you get it wrong, there'll
be no negative outcome for you.

01:52:52.297 --> 01:52:52.387
Yeah.

01:52:52.387 --> 01:52:52.507
Sorry.

01:52:52.532 --> 01:52:52.932
Something different.

01:52:52.932 --> 01:52:55.357
And if it doesn't work today,
we'll figure it out tomorrow.

01:52:55.807 --> 01:52:55.808
Dr. Marc Evanko:

01:52:55.807 --> 01:52:56.377
Exactly.

01:52:56.407 --> 01:52:57.097
Rupert Isaacson: But figure it out.

01:52:57.097 --> 01:52:57.487
We will.

01:52:57.577 --> 01:52:57.907
Yeah.

01:52:59.317 --> 01:53:01.237
No, I, I, I so respect that.

01:53:01.657 --> 01:53:04.867
You know, we talked about the book,
we didn't hear the title of the book.

01:53:05.527 --> 01:53:05.528
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:53:05.527 --> 01:53:06.577
Oh, it's Joy.

01:53:08.467 --> 01:53:09.247
Rupert Isaacson: We like Joy.

01:53:09.772 --> 01:53:09.773
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:53:09.772 --> 01:53:09.992
Joy.

01:53:11.047 --> 01:53:11.347
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:53:11.347 --> 01:53:14.767
Because, because this is the other thing,
you know, I love that you have that word

01:53:14.767 --> 01:53:17.347
because when, when we're training people.

01:53:17.992 --> 01:53:19.492
We're always saying, well,
the problem's not autism.

01:53:19.702 --> 01:53:20.062
Right?

01:53:20.392 --> 01:53:22.762
Because there's lots of
successful autistic people and

01:53:22.762 --> 01:53:23.872
the problem's, not schizophrenia.

01:53:23.902 --> 01:53:26.272
'cause there's actually quite a lot
of successful schizophrenic people.

01:53:26.602 --> 01:53:30.412
And there's, the problem is the
suffering that goes with finding

01:53:30.412 --> 01:53:34.912
yourself in the wrong place with
these overwhelmed by all this stress.

01:53:35.482 --> 01:53:35.572
Mm-hmm.

01:53:35.872 --> 01:53:40.162
But, so the problem's actually
suffering, not the condition.

01:53:40.732 --> 01:53:42.202
'cause these conditions
have always been around.

01:53:43.072 --> 01:53:44.662
So what is the opposite of suffering?

01:53:44.662 --> 01:53:46.702
If we want to, the opposite
of suffering is joy.

01:53:47.187 --> 01:53:47.452
Joy, yes.

01:53:48.682 --> 01:53:52.132
So that's what we, you know, if, if,
and again, you know, follow the child

01:53:52.132 --> 01:53:56.572
work, I, I'd love that you call it
joy, because that's what we have to do.

01:53:58.312 --> 01:54:01.342
And if, if, if one gets these life
skills, what's the point of them?

01:54:02.092 --> 01:54:02.842
The point of them without

01:54:02.842 --> 01:54:02.843
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:54:02.842 --> 01:54:03.142
joy.

01:54:03.292 --> 01:54:03.412
Right?

01:54:03.412 --> 01:54:03.622
Yeah.

01:54:03.622 --> 01:54:03.802
And,

01:54:03.802 --> 01:54:04.792
Rupert Isaacson: and to experience joy.

01:54:04.792 --> 01:54:05.842
To be able to access joy.

01:54:06.562 --> 01:54:06.682
Right.

01:54:06.712 --> 01:54:08.302
What do ponies bring into our lives?

01:54:08.722 --> 01:54:08.723
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:54:08.722 --> 01:54:11.812
Oh, absolutely, absolutely joy.

01:54:17.767 --> 01:54:19.237
Rupert Isaacson: We are
great purveyors of joy.

01:54:19.597 --> 01:54:20.467
That's what we do.

01:54:21.157 --> 01:54:23.257
That's, you know, we're
lucky that we can do that.

01:54:25.237 --> 01:54:28.067
So listen guys we've
hit the two hour mark.

01:54:28.127 --> 01:54:29.447
I'd love to have you guys on again.

01:54:29.877 --> 01:54:30.207
Sure.

01:54:30.697 --> 01:54:33.217
It's been, I feel I've
only scratched the surface.

01:54:34.017 --> 01:54:35.457
How do people find out about you?

01:54:35.457 --> 01:54:36.417
Give us the web stuff.

01:54:36.417 --> 01:54:38.097
How do they find out about Radiance?

01:54:38.097 --> 01:54:39.837
How do they find about EQU therapy?

01:54:39.987 --> 01:54:42.147
And m where do they get your book?

01:54:43.857 --> 01:54:43.858
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:54:43.857 --> 01:54:45.417
Website is the best place.

01:54:45.417 --> 01:54:46.737
Wilder Wood equine

01:54:46.737 --> 01:54:47.937
Rupert Isaacson: therapy.org.

01:54:49.077 --> 01:54:49.917
Wilder Wood.

01:54:50.277 --> 01:54:51.297
Equine therapy.

01:54:51.297 --> 01:54:51.447
Word?

01:54:51.447 --> 01:54:51.657
Equine?

01:54:53.247 --> 01:54:53.248
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:54:53.247 --> 01:54:53.607
Yes.

01:54:53.907 --> 01:54:54.207
Rupert Isaacson: Org.

01:54:54.212 --> 01:54:54.322
Org.

01:54:54.482 --> 01:54:54.483
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:54:54.482 --> 01:54:54.962
ORG.

01:54:55.062 --> 01:54:55.482
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:54:55.782 --> 01:54:55.783
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:54:55.782 --> 01:54:56.202
Mm-hmm.

01:54:58.287 --> 01:54:59.007
Rupert Isaacson: And the books on

01:54:59.007 --> 01:54:59.008
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:54:59.007 --> 01:54:59.577
Amazon.

01:55:01.977 --> 01:55:02.247
On Amazon, yeah.

01:55:02.517 --> 01:55:02.787
Rupert Isaacson: Co,

01:55:03.992 --> 01:55:03.993
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:55:03.992 --> 01:55:04.212
co.

01:55:04.212 --> 01:55:06.807
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you Co guys.

01:55:06.807 --> 01:55:07.317
Thank you.

01:55:08.412 --> 01:55:08.413
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:55:08.412 --> 01:55:09.122
Thank you so much.

01:55:09.122 --> 01:55:10.542
Thank you for the invitation.

01:55:11.022 --> 01:55:11.502
We're very

01:55:11.712 --> 01:55:12.132
Rupert Isaacson: grateful.

01:55:12.132 --> 01:55:12.402
You, very

01:55:12.402 --> 01:55:12.403
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:55:12.402 --> 01:55:12.912
wonderful.

01:55:12.912 --> 01:55:17.232
And we feel very privileged to be having
had the chance to talk with you today.

01:55:17.472 --> 01:55:18.822
Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise, likewise.

01:55:18.822 --> 01:55:21.462
Thank you for making the
time, and we will do it again.

01:55:22.452 --> 01:55:22.453
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:55:22.452 --> 01:55:22.662
All

01:55:22.662 --> 01:55:22.962
Rupert Isaacson: right.

01:55:23.862 --> 01:55:24.172
Take care.

01:55:24.172 --> 01:55:24.522
Take care guys.

01:55:24.522 --> 01:55:25.242
Thanks a lot.

01:55:25.422 --> 01:55:25.423
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:

01:55:25.422 --> 01:55:25.692
Bye-bye.

01:55:25.697 --> 01:55:25.737
Okay.

01:55:26.112 --> 01:55:26.592
Bye-bye.

01:55:26.592 --> 01:55:26.602
Byebye.

01:55:26.740 --> 01:55:29.860
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

01:55:30.400 --> 01:55:35.300
If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.

01:55:35.310 --> 01:55:39.480
It so helps us to get this valuable
work done and the message of

01:55:39.480 --> 01:55:41.360
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.

01:55:41.510 --> 01:55:44.590
And if you're interested in more
conversations, you might want to check

01:55:44.600 --> 01:55:47.280
out I'll live free ride free podcast.

01:55:47.670 --> 01:55:52.430
And if you'd like to support the
podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.

01:55:52.480 --> 01:55:54.970
com and click on the Patreon link.

01:55:55.670 --> 01:55:59.190
If you're a professional in the equine
assisted field or considering a career

01:55:59.540 --> 01:56:03.050
in the equine assisted field, you
might want to check out our three

01:56:03.060 --> 01:56:08.820
certification programs, horseboy
method, movement method, and taquin.

01:56:08.905 --> 01:56:10.375
Equine integration.

01:56:10.645 --> 01:56:15.595
You can find all of those over
on new Trails learning.com.

01:56:15.795 --> 01:56:19.185
And finally, if you want to check
out our cool rock and roll themed

01:56:19.185 --> 01:56:22.205
merch back on rupert isaacson.com,

01:56:22.535 --> 01:56:23.675
please click on Shop.

01:56:23.735 --> 01:56:25.415
You'll find all kinds
of fun goodies there.

01:56:25.595 --> 01:56:30.985
And if you're looking for a way to spend
time until the next podcast, you might

01:56:30.985 --> 01:56:35.095
want to consider reading the books that
kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the

01:56:35.095 --> 01:56:37.905
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.

01:56:38.175 --> 01:56:39.795
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.

01:56:39.915 --> 01:56:40.245
world.

01:56:40.505 --> 01:56:41.695
Join us for the adventure.