Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back.
I've got two very interesting people.
I always have interesting people obviously, but I've
still especially interesting.
Dr.
Rebecca and Dr.
Mark Avanco, sorry, Evko.
Thank you.
Who run Wilder Wood Niche Niche is a bit south of Albuquerque in New Mexico.
And what makes them I think, a little bit unique in the equine therapy world
or equine assisted world is that there's very much an emphasis on female autism and
as an autism dad myself I've definitely been aware over the years that many
women on the spectrum go under the radar.
And this can be good, this can be bad, but it is a fact.
And where it can be good for a while, it can be bad later.
Or even if people do learn to cope without official supports it
can just be extremely stressful.
And I think it's it's very interesting to be looking at a program that
really holds this front and center.
So Dr.
Rebecca, who started this program is on the spectrum herself and is going to tell
us a little bit about her experience.
And her husband Mark, who's a physician is also Neurodiverse with a DD.
So together they make quite a discerning combo.
For how to approach th this particular set of conditions and how to bring out the
best in people who might be struggling.
And they've, they're developing a rather unique protocol, which they will explain.
So guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Rebecca, can you tell us a little bit about your background, your childhood,
what your experience as a girl and a young woman was with autism and why
it's led you to the work that you do?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yeah.
Sorry.
We've got open-ended questions like that can be quite difficult for me.
Oh, no
Rupert Isaacson: doubt.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I, I'm gonna let Mark speak for me just a little bit while I process that.
Okay.
If you don't mind.
Yeah.
So
Dr. Marc Evanko:
whenever.
So, Rebecca, as Rupert, you and I had talked a little bit prior to the, the,
the podcast Rebecca was in Queensland raised by two adults who really
did not know anything about autism.
There was not much known about autism, especially in females.
It was not even known about Asperger's syndrome when she was a, a young child.
And so much of her experience as a young child was being
asked, what's wrong with you?
And, and this has of course, been quite impactful.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Well, I didn't want to, I didn't want to do anything.
I didn't wanna do the social things.
All I wanted to do was, I was obsessed with horses and I just wanted a horse.
And of course we lived in the city in, at the time when I was very young, and
we didn't have, couldn't have a horse.
And I just, that was, that was my world.
And in fact, it was so much my world that everyone referred to me as between me
and my sister, she was the musical one.
I was the horse one.
And then I think I was about 11 and my mother got a job up
in Queensland in the country.
And you know, I was very excited about this because it country
meant that I could have a horse.
And so that was my only interest.
So we moved up there and I got, I, I got my horses and it was, it was wonderful.
But my, my parents who had divorced.
It thought me very strange, very problematic.
I had no interest in school.
In fact, I dropped out of school as soon as I legally could at the age of 15.
And I just wanted to be with my horse.
And I would do things like go riding my horse at two o'clock
in the morning outside and wander around the town and on my horse.
I thought it was a completely natural thing to do.
It was very, very atmospheric.
There was lots of mist and, and it was just wonderful
having, I trusted my horses.
I had a great relationship with them.
I just got them.
And they thought that that was very problematic and why wasn't
I going to parties and things?
And anyway they they eventually just walked out on me, left me in this
little farm that I was on and at 15.
And initially I thought, I thought it was wonderful.
You know, I was there on my own.
I.
You know, there was some bread in the fridge and whatever, and jam and
eggs and things from the chickens.
And I, for a couple of weeks I just lived there.
And then we got a knock on, I got a knock on the door and it was the
landlord asking where the rent was.
And I didn't have any money for rent.
I didn't have any, any parents to go to.
I had no idea where they were.
This seems all very strange to some people, but it seemed quite normal to me.
And anyway, it was quite traumatic because I got evicted from that
place and I had to lose my horses and, which was devastating to me.
So there I was without really with probably a grade nine education,
you can call it that I didn't really pay much attention to school.
And sort of had to survive on my own.
So I got a job at a gas company.
And I told, I've told Temple Grandin this story too, because it's sort of
similar to things she'd experienced.
I got a job at a gas company that provided natural gas to houses, and
I was stuck out the back organizing these what they call dockets.
They were gas receipts.
When the natural gas was delivered, the drivers would bring back these, these,
these dockets or these receipts, and my job was to organize them and sort
them into date and customer order.
And it was considered a terrible job, but I loved it.
Not only was I sort of on my own, I didn't have to interact or do
the social stuff with people.
I could sit there and I, I developed a system to organize all of these
gas dockets very, very quickly.
And they were just amazed and, and then started to sort of promote me into jobs.
I didn't really want to do.
I didn't want to do customer facing work.
I wanted to earn enough money so I could get my own place and get a horse.
That didn't really happen until much later in my life when I realized I'd
have to go back to school and get an education so I could get a job that
would actually pay enough money to, to support horses which are very expensive.
And so, you know, long story short, I went back to school and got my GED equivalent
and then got a bachelor's degree, and then I got a master's degree and then a PhD.
And, and then I met my now husband and we decided he had horses.
And so we decided we would start something up to help autistic people the way
that my love of horses and my ability to communicate with horses and his
also could help other autistic people.
And and so that's how Wildwood came about.
And for quite a while, we, we offered what we called experiences
to people to experience some of that interaction between horses and humans.
And then this realization that kind of dawns on me after the fact as an
autistic person, I think, well, I, I'd better get some sort of credentials
to be able to do therapy properly.
So I went back to school a final time and earned a master's in clinical mental
health counseling with a focus on rehab and autism and got that credential.
And so now we're starting our proper equine therapy program based on not
only what I learned in that program and I learned a lot, but also my
life and experience as an autistic person and a horse woman and my
husband's life experience with horses and as a neurodivergent person.
So I think that's probably it in five minutes
Rupert Isaacson: with a few, a few a few glaring chasms in the
narrative to which we must return.
So the, the.
Before I go over to you, mark obviously to have one's parents
disappear like that is unusual.
A couple of immediate questions come to mind.
The first one is, did your sister go with them or did she stay with
you or did she go her own way?
I dunno if she was younger or older.
Well
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
she, she was five years older and we never got on and she, she
didn't come to Queensland when,
Rupert Isaacson: ah, when I went there.
So she was okay.
She was already outta the picture?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yes, I she was
Rupert Isaacson: spectrum too out of interest?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I don't think so.
She was very much like my mother and my mother and I were like oil and water.
So I don't think she was, but I haven't spoken to my sister for
I don't know how long, 35 years.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And when you say your parents left, so your parents were
still together at that point?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
No, they, they weren't.
They, they, they were divorced.
It's very complicated, but I outlined it in my memoir Joy.
The story is in, in that memoir.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
But those listeners who are coming to it knew which most people will, and I'm sure
people will want to look at the book.
Had you then moved up to Queensland only with your mother?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yes.
And then my father.
And was your father in
Rupert Isaacson: any way involved at that point, or had
he disappeared from the picture?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Well, my father had disappeared quite a few times in my life and
went to Africa actually Rhodesia.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
And did some questionable things there.
I heard stories, but I don't know.
He was a very charismatic man.
I think he was autistic.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
And then he sort of appeared back in our life and.
He ended up, my mother ended up getting him a job also at what
became the University of Southern Queensland in, in Toowoomba.
So they were both working at that institution for a while.
Was your mother an
Rupert Isaacson: academic?
Were they, were they academics?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Was they were both academics.
Okay.
In what field?
Out
Rupert Isaacson: of interest,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
my father was in journalism.
Mm-hmm.
And my mother was in theater.
She was an actress.
She was actually trained in London at the Old Vic.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
yeah.
So she was an actress and, and very much an actress.
Very much lived her life as an actress.
And a very complicated, what some people tell me is a very unusual
background, but it was normal to me.
It was a, it was normally abnormal, I suppose.
This one.
Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: When, when, when?
So when she, when, so they left this house that you were in with horses.
That's a fairly radical thing to do.
How, how, and you were in your teens, you, you would think Yes.
That you, well, well, not, not protective services or some equivalent
would've gotten involved at that point,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
or not?
Not quite.
They were living in separate places.
Mm.
I lived with my mother for a while and then she said to my
father, I can't handle her.
You take her.
So he took me out on a farm and I lived with him with these horses.
I see.
And he was more interested in, in talking to the, the 19-year-old co-eds at the
university and having relationships with those, with them than he was with me.
And then my mother got very sick and so she went back, she went back to Sydney to
get treatment and I stayed with my father.
And her friends thought I was a bad influence, so they
wouldn't tell me where she was.
So I, I, I lost contact with my mother that way and then my mother died and then
my father just was not there one day.
So that's the background of,
Rupert Isaacson: do you know where he went?
Was there, was there any further story or was that it?
There was no further contact.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I found out about three years later that he went off with some student
that he then married, even though he wasn't divorced from his fourth wife.
And then he died.
So it's,
Rupert Isaacson: it's the stuff of movies.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yeah, I guess so.
But
Rupert Isaacson: the reason I think it's worth, it's worth knowing the
details is that I know actually quite a few people who have a not
dissimilar story, and I think it can be.
Both male and female.
And I think, you know, it's, it's such a unique experience when somebody
finds themselves alone at that young age and sort of makes it work.
And I think, you know, however difficult that is at the time, what of course it
does is it gives that person incredible resilience and a set of things.
Well,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I, I think, yes, I think so too.
And I think my, my autism, I didn't know I was autistic.
I think it actually saved me.
I never got into drugs or alcohol.
Mm-hmm.
I never got into crime.
I never did any of that.
It was almost like very matter of fact, okay, well I'm on my own.
I don't have any education.
I want to get back into horses.
I need money.
I better get a job.
What can I do?
Not much I can type, but yeah.
So I went and got a job and it was just basically that black and white.
Rupert Isaacson: Was there a point where you were homeless or
did you, did you manage to Oh,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
yes.
Oh yes, yes.
And how did you
Rupert Isaacson: survive those, that period?
Well,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
you know, there were, there were, there have always been very kind
people that I've come across in my life who, for whatever reason
have been willing to help me.
So sometimes I would stay, there was a, a lady at the corner store who I
got quite friendly with, and she let me stay at her house for a week or so.
And then there was some, there was an elderly couple who
had actually known my mother.
And I, I ran into them at a shopping center and they asked me
how I was doing and I said, well, I haven't got anywhere to live.
And they said, well, you can come and stay with us for a little while.
So, you know, I had people like that who were willing to help
me and wonderful professors.
Who recognized or saw something in me, God knows what, but they saw
something in me and they encouraged me.
So they've been wonderful people.
So even in the midst of all of this horribleness, there have been
amazing people who have helped me.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think this is, this is a really interesting
topic because one of the things that I realized when my son was diagnosed
and we were living actually on quite an isolated ranch in outside of
Austin, Texas, far from any family, you know, was the importance of tribe.
And I grew up with a family that where there was a lot of extended.
Always a lot of extended family cousins and cousins of cousins, and this one once
removed and that one 12 times removed.
And, you know, because South African colonial families, which we were,
even though I was born and raised in London, but there was a lot of back
and forth to Africa and constant procession of relatives coming through.
When I had the experience of, you know, oh gosh, now what am I gonna do?
I've got this, you know, nonverbal kid who's just floating away.
And there is no tribe.
Fortunately I had a sort of a buddy relationship with my next door neighbor
who even though we were massively on other sides of the political
spectrum from each other we both like to drink whiskey and we both like to
ride and we both like to go hunting.
And so we would do that together from time to time.
He'd pull my leg about being a hippie and I'd pull his leg about being you
know, whatever names I could come up with for his conservativeness.
And we actually quite enjoyed that interaction so that when my son
went through the fence and made a relationship with his horse, instead
of saying, get off my property, or, sorry, you can't interact with this
horse because he might fall off and, you know, you might sue me or whatever.
There was this immediate like, yeah, here's the key to the saddle room.
And it seems like you had similar relationships with people.
And I wonder if this is something you talk about in your programs, the importance of
community, the importance of relationship, the importance of tribe and chosen family,
you know, even if your blood family isn't, you know, quite meeting requirements.
Is this something which, 'cause it's there in your story, you, you, you
emphasize at all in your programs.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Oh, yes, yes.
For autistic women, which is our focus we very much emphasize
what tribe is a good word the collective of other autistic women.
We tend to get each other in the same way that autistic people and neurodivergent
people can connect with horses.
We tend to understand each other better.
It's very, very important to find that sense of community and sense of
belonging, much like it's, it it is for the horses in, in their own horse world.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I would
Rupert Isaacson: agree.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
You know, I think one of the worst things that I can think of, well, apart
from frank abuse to horses, which is just horrific, is you know, driving
past and seeing a horse standing on its own without any other horses with it,
without any other horses to interact with.
I, I, I think they need each other and I think that.
People need each other, and particularly autistic people need
to find each other and connect with each other because we get each other.
Rupert Isaacson: I would wholeheartedly agree.
Now there's one last gap in the narrative before I turn to you, mark.
It's rather a long way geographically from Queensland to New Mexico.
So, the meeting of Mark and you guys deciding to put this place together,
obviously there's a backstory there.
How did you end up in the USA and how did you guys end up meeting?
Well,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
as briefly as possible one of the ways that I survived
was when I was quite young.
I thought it might be quite a good idea to get married.
I thought it would be a way to, you know, find security.
And so I got married fairly young.
It was a dreadful mismatch.
He was a very good man, but he was into car clubs and barbecues and I wasn't,
and when I went back to school, we kind of separated and just realized
it was just hopeless at the time.
When I got my first it was getting my first degree, the internet was brand new.
And being a cocky little undergraduate, I had read an article by a professor
in the US in Texas that I disagreed with, and at the bottom there was an
email address and I thought, oh, I'm going to write to this person and
tell him just why I disagreed with his article using this thing called email.
And so I did, and he wrote back and that started a, a relationship.
So I ended up flying over to the United States on a student visa.
I finished my baccalaureate degree here and I married this professor.
That relationship didn't work out either.
And I divorced and I ended up I had my PhD so I was doing various work around
the country and, and not in a relationship convinced that I would never find anybody
who would be able to put up with me.
And I was seeing a psychologist at the time and the psychologist suggested,
well, you know, why don't you just give it one more go at finding someone?
I said, oh, it's, no, it's no point.
There's nobody who'll ever put up with me.
And so, you know, I went onto one of those, I think it was match and
I put in my details and this picture came up of this very attractive man
who was standing there with this jaw dropping gorgeous Arabian trachea horse
and just looking, yeah, yeah, right.
Just looking into his eyes.
And I said, any man who looks at a horse like that.
Is worth talking to.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, of course at the time people had told me, well, you know,
you've got to create these profiles to make people interested in you.
And, and I, and I was driving a Porsche at the time because, hey, if I couldn't have
a horse, I could at least have horsepower.
So I had this picture of me sort of leaning over this Porsche,
and I used it as my profile.
And so I contacted this guy.
He looked, he looked, he looks at this profile and he thinks,
lady, you've got the wrong guy.
I don't care if I, I walk through,
Rupert Isaacson: you could buy for that Porsche.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You know, so, he sort of didn't, you, he kind of wrote back and
said, I don't think, maybe, I don't think I'm the right guy for you.
And, and yeah.
And, and then, i, you know, I, I didn't really think any
of, anything of it really.
I just sort of kept you as my favorite.
And then you can finish the story.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Well, so in that story I looked at this woman, beautiful woman
over the Porsche, and I thought exactly what she just mentioned.
And I said, you know, your high heels are not gonna work here.
You're we are, it just goes through mud and, and you're gonna be cleaning poop.
You've got sand in your bed from
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
the p
Dr. Marc Evanko:
we've got three dogs, large dogs, and they're on the bed
and they're not getting off.
And this was my profile because I had been through a divorce and that's what
brought me to this very property with Sayed and ritzy, Tennessee Walker.
And I just I could not.
Fathom that I would be together with someone, but my friends said, why
don't you just try this after about 10 years of being completely single?
And I, no.
So that's when I said, no, no, no, you're not the one for me.
And then to kind of turn the knife, about two weeks later, I saw her thing
come up again on Matt and ISI said, am I still your favorite question Mark?
And sh she emailed back on Matt and said, will you?
Sure?
Yes.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
And we sort of started talking from there, and that's how that happened.
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.
That's a great story.
Thank you.
Mark?
Yes.
A DD also neurodivergent.
Can I have your bio leading up to this point too, because I think it Sure.
Yeah.
It, it's, it's, it's unusual and valuable to find a program that's
run by two neurodivergent people.
So yeah.
What's your story, what's your perspective
Dr. Marc Evanko:
much in contrast to Rebecca's story in her early life?
I was raised by two parents who were together for, until
they both died, essentially.
And large family or eight siblings.
Wow.
And where was that?
Where,
Rupert Isaacson: where in the US was, right?
In
Dr. Marc Evanko:
New Mexico?
Yeah.
Okay.
In New Mexico, in Albuquerque.
And I had a relatively, what I would consider to be a relatively
stable and quote, normal life.
Went to school, finished high school.
Straight to college, straight to medical school almost straight to medical school.
Did two years of research before that.
Really never was com never really rode horses until I
got back from medical school.
Didn't have the money.
Did you always want to, had that always been a desire?
Interestingly enough, no.
I, I was a camp counselor at one of the ca the A-Y-M-C-A camp close
by Albuquerque, about 70 miles.
So it's 80 kilometers away from from Albuquerque.
And we would take the campers out with the rancher who
donated his time and his horses.
And then I'd get to ride with the other counselors through this beautiful meadow.
It was huge, actually a volcano crater.
Mm-hmm.
Up in the Hamus mountains.
He allowed us to do that.
But that was, that was really my horse experience.
My mother rode horses and she did dressage and she actually
had a a Tennessee walker as well.
And so it was interesting that when I returned from medical school, I met my
first wife and she came with a horse.
And the horse that was born in the stall next to hers is Saeed the
Trachea Arab that Rebecca mentioned.
I figured if I was gonna.
Learn how to ride a horse.
I wanted to learn how to ride a horse well and not need to do what many
western riders do around here, which is muscle the horse around, and use
the bit as a weapon rather than as a, as a kind and gentle way to ask the
horse to follow you in that dance.
So I started taking dressage lessons with a green 2-year-old
horse who was extremely athletic,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
very smart,
Dr. Marc Evanko:
and very smart.
And I'm a green rider on a green horse.
It's not the best combination.
Quite a way
Rupert Isaacson: to learn,
Dr. Marc Evanko:
quite a way to learn green.
Green equals black and blue.
Yeah, that's, that is right.
And so we together went through three or four instructors before we met
James, our, our current James Reman, who is our now Ecol Dete instructor.
And he took me and sayed up to the fourth level of dressage and
we're very grateful for that.
It's interesting though, because one of the things I learned about dressage is
that it isn't necessarily, especially in the competitive aspects of dressage,
not necessarily the kindest to the
Rupert Isaacson: horse.
Sure.
Well, anything done competitively becomes a caricature of itself.
Yeah.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Yes.
And that's, I, I did not realize that until we started showing.
And James is like, is this what?
And he knew at that time that that was really not what he wanted to do.
He wanted to do classical, true classical dressage, but could not find it.
Here.
And when he met and, and, and learned about ate immediately he switched
and is now a a trainer, one of only a handful in the United States.
And luckily he is right next door to us here, down in Peralta.
So that's my horse experience.
We, I.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, let's talk a bit about your a DD and also
what kind of physician are you and how does that I'm a, I'm a gp.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
I, I have done a, a varied amount of activities as a gp.
It's interesting how times have changed.
I, early in my career did ER and urgent care and ICU work simply because of
the way we were able to do things then, and the liability and all
of those things that have changed.
So I have a lot of experience in a lot of different areas of medicine
Rupert Isaacson: do too.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
My training as an osteopathic physician here in America actually
gives me a different view of the.
Human condition than many allopathic physicians.
And I, I chose osteopathy over the allopathic profession because I felt it
was a much more comprehensive way to look at the human condition and, and medicine.
And so that's, that's why I'm a do and, and not an md.
Got it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that brings, I think, quite a holistic perspective.
Tell us a bit about your a DD.
When, when did you realize you were a DD?
How has it impacted your life?
Do you feel, do you, do you consider it a superpower?
Do you consider it disorder?
What, what's your take?
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Like any, okay.
So the first question is how do I, how did I learn that I was a DD?
Well, A DHD it was actually, I was probably, and from the time I was
able to remember two, three years old my mother would frequently ask me.
Tell me, sit down and be still, sit down there and be still.
And did that become the litany for your life after that?
That was kind of the litany for my life.
And I'm, I'm sitting here right now as still as I can be, but my legs are
going, having to sit on your hands.
Yeah.
And so that was how I learned to do the compensatory skills that I needed
to calm, actually calm my mind enough that I could take in information and
be able to, without medications do what I did academically and scholastically
and, and be able to take things in.
But please don't ask me.
To remember something five minutes later, because I won't.
If you and I are talking and we have would you go get this?
Okay, I'll do it in just a minute.
It doesn't get done.
Mark, take your pills this month.
Did you take your pills?
I think I did.
Here.
Here's your pill.
You put 'em out because
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I put 'em out for you.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Right?
That's the only way it'll happen.
I mean, I may remember this evening because I walked by the cabinet where, you
know, the pills are, but the story that I would tell my clients and my patients
to help them diagnose themselves as a DD is my story about very common in my life.
I need to rake the leaves out in the yard.
So I'm on my way to the garage to get the rake, and I pass by the hose that hasn't
been wound up for three or four days.
So I start winding the hose up and then I note, I remember that the, the spray thing
on the end of the hose is not is broken.
So I need to go to the, the, the Home Depot.
Home Depot to get another one of those.
So I'm on my go to Home Depot and I get four other items and I'm on
my way back and think I didn't get the thing for the hose and, but
what was I originally going to do?
You?
Yeah.
And so this is my life.
I'll put a tool down.
And
where did it go?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Whereas I, in contrast, would have the compensatory strategy
of using a mole skin to plan.
Tomorrow I'm going to rake the leaves at nine o'clock.
So at nine o'clock I go out to rake the leaves.
Don't you dare disturb me.
Don't change my plans.
Don't do anything differently.
I'm raking leaves from nine to nine 50
Dr. Marc Evanko:
and I'm, I'm very good as long as there is someone in practice.
For instance, my MAs, my front office people would just say,
doctor, go into room six.
Okay.
That I could do and that I could focus on my client, my patient,
but outside of that room going in the halls and out distraction.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
But I, I'd like to jump in here if I may.
You talked about compensator strategies, and I think that
was incredibly important to me.
My experiences may have been.
Unusual and disturbing and upsetting, but it taught me a whole lot.
I had to be, I had to take care of myself because there was nobody else to do it.
I had to develop strategies to do that.
And Temple Gran talks about this a lot too.
She expresses concern about autistic kids not being given enough, you
know, responsibility to be able to develop these alternative strategies.
Yeah.
So I developed very specific ways of doing things that I maintain to this day,
very complicated executive functioning setups that work for me that I developed
that people look at and say, oh my God, look at what you do to get this done.
But it gets things done and it, it taught me that I had to do it.
So I think that's something also that we, we, you know, emphasize
if, if a client comes in contact with a horse, if they're afraid.
They don't really know what to do.
I'm not gonna stand there and tell them how to do it.
We will just stand in silence and wait until there is some form of
communication, something that happens which we can then leverage and
say, did you notice this happening?
You can work out how to do this on your own terms.
And I think that that's a really important phrase for autistic people learning to
do things, but on your own terms, rather than trying to get to some non-autistic
ideal you'll never reach anyway.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I, I think I'm in agreement there.
With all our programs, you know, it, it's predicated on something called Follow the
Child and you could also replace the word child with adult or yourself or whatever.
But the idea is intrinsic motivation has to be, has to be the way.
No amount of good boys gold stars.
Or the other kind of motivation, which is course negative.
We'll get the job done.
And it was Temple Grandin actually who schooled me very early, and that's
the Rupert, you've got to follow the child physically, emotionally, which
means sensorily and and intellectually through what they're interested in.
And it made so much sense to me.
They was like, yep, absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Got it.
And I just did that.
And of course, everything that we do flows from there, so I'm, I'm
right with you there, you know.
Quickly before we, I want to move on to your programs, but mark, just quickly
with you, when, when were you, were you diagnosed with a DHD at a certain point?
And then you mentioned medications, but you also mentioned no medications.
I presume that as a boy, if you had been a boy now at school, you'd
have been medicated, like boom.
Did you then come to be medicated later or did you manage to avoid
medications or, you know what, no.
No,
Dr. Marc Evanko:
I've, I've never been medicated.
But the
Rupert Isaacson: pills you
Dr. Marc Evanko:
were referring to are not a DD pills?
No, no.
I, oh, no,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
they're not.
No,
Dr. Marc Evanko:
it's interesting.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
He's racked up his body through falling off horses so
Dr. Marc Evanko:
well, and motorcycles and, yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
No, no, no, no.
I'm,
Dr. Marc Evanko:
I'm kidding.
Yeah.
But so, the answer is I've never been medicated for A DHD.
Yeah.
I the, the support that I got and, and just being accepted, interestingly
enough by family and, and I, I'm sure I had friends in, in school,
high school who were also, and we, we just kind of were there.
It's interesting because it, there was much more of a, it is a little weird, but.
He's okay.
Yeah.
He's not hurting anything.
And instead of this confirmation we have to conform and have this
child conform to the way things are.
That is, that seems to be going on a lot more these days.
So here's the medication.
Medications can be very effective tools for all kinds of different conditions.
I mean, I am on high blood pressure pills now that I was got long COVID, I
was stricken with COVID from the, when I was working at urgent care early on
in the, in the COVID circumstances.
I got COVID before there was even testing for it, and ended up in the emergency room
myself with blood pressures in the, in the two hundreds, over hundreds, whereas
a week before I was on zero medications, zero except for some ibuprofen.
Got it.
So, those are the medications I'm on.
And when did you get
Rupert Isaacson: your diagnosis?
I'm self-diagnosed.
Okay.
And similarly, Rebecca, were you self-diagnosed or did
someone give you a diagnosis?
If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
developed in conjunction with Dr.
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
We work in the saddle with younger children.
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
applied in schools, in homes.
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
No, I had a, I had a breakdown.
I was working as a dean, a college dean, and I, I just reached a point where I
just couldn't do it anymore and I broke down and was weeping under my desk.
So.
I got to see a psychologist, and fortunately this, I lucked out.
There was a woman psychologist who knew something about autism in women.
And so I was talking to her and she brought it up and she said,
you know, Rebecca, I'd like to talk with you about autism.
And I didn't believe it.
I said, don't be ridiculous.
No
Rupert Isaacson: one else had had suggested that to you before?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
No.
I was diagnosed as a child with childhood schizophrenia because the psychiatrist,
they always said something was, there's something wrong with that child.
That was my mother's constant refrain.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
And the psychiatrist had asked me in the office, I think, I don't
know, I was about nine or something, you know, do you hear voices?
And I was very literal.
And, you know, I said yes, because, you know, of course I heard his
voice and I heard people speaking.
There was nothing wrong with my hearing.
Right.
And so I was promptly, you know, the kind of, how old
Rupert Isaacson: were you at that time?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
About nine.
Yeah.
And that diagnosis was absolutely incorrect.
Because I didn't, I didn't hear the types of voices that he was talking.
I didn't have delusions.
I didn't have, you know, anything.
I was very introverted.
I just wanted to be around horses.
So they saw that as, as being kind of, you know, not wanting to be around people.
And but anyway, so, you know, I hadn't, I always knew I was kind of different, but
when this psychologist talked about it, I, I, I started to learn more about it.
And then I was rediagnosed when I came to New Mexico.
Because I wanted some accommodations for my second master's program, right.
So I was rediagnosed by another psychologist with whom I work now
actually, and and that so diagnosed twice.
But yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: it's interesting the women that,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
go ahead.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
No,
Rupert Isaacson: you go ahead and then I'll,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
well, the, the women that we have seen as part of this major research project
to develop this new instrument, that is one of the most common things that
we hear, this history of misdiagnoses.
You know, everything ranging from schizophrenia anxiety, depression,
borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, O-C-D-O-C-D,
or social anxiety disorder.
All of these disorders, some of them certainly can exist co-occurring with
autism, but just a history of seeking answers without really getting anywhere.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I agree.
I, I think.
When it comes to the misdiagnosis and the work that I've done, it definitely
seems to be a more female thing.
Almost as if when girls are at school age, it might be changing.
Now the assumptions of autism tend to go to boys.
Mm-hmm.
Unless there's something, you know, it is like super severe, not speaking at all.
Okay, fine then.
But if it's, if it's anything mild than that and then yeah, there's, there's
a lot of flying under the radar or as you say, getting these false diagnoses.
And one of the things which I often find
I can understand it, but it's a symptom actually of how
mentally ill our society is.
I think in, in general, is the fact that all of these things have
a d on the end of them disorder.
You know, I spent so much time in the Kalahari.
I'm sure that I'm a DD or A DHD but I regard it as something that
allows me to have parallel careers.
Live parallel lives.
Yeah.
I'm forgetful.
Yeah.
I'm absent minded.
I mean, you know, you could have described me, mark with your thing of, of those
distractions, but probably, actually I'll get all of those things done.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
If you look at the end of the month, actually I've got them all done.
It's just the timeframe might have been a bit strange.
But that allows me to do things like make a film and write a book and train
a horse and go travel over there and kind of keep track even, even though
I lose track in the short term.
I can kind of keep track.
And when I was with the sun, with the Bushman in the Kalahari, you know,
and I was observing a lot of hunting and gathering, I realize, oh, you have
to be like that because you have to constantly adapt to new circumstances.
When you are hunting, you know, the wind changes, the, suddenly there's
elephants over there you know, for a, a bazillion reasons you might have
to stop on the fly and do something else and have 10 other plans.
You know, when people joke about, oh, squirrel, it's like, well, yes, yes,
that squirrel might be your lunch.
You know, and if you, so if you are walking to see your friend and you
notice antelope tracks, you're going to, sorry about the visit, but I'm on
these tracks now because if I can get that antelope, actually I'll feed you.
And this, this is, so, these things aren't disorders unless one is
in a society, which where this personality type is not valued.
Or not understood.
And then sure.
It's regarded as a, as a disorder because then there's
such a narrow economic 'cause.
It really comes down to economics.
I think there's just such a narrow economic, participatory field, if
you like, that anything that isn't, as you say, completely within that
field, gets labeled a disorder.
But if it, if these things were all disorders, given that they, people have
had these since there were people, then we'd be a very inefficient species.
But we're not, we're the dominant species.
So presumably there's more to these things than meets the eye.
But I I, I absolutely agree with you on the female misdiagnosis and the confusion
and the misery that this can cause.
And the loss of self-confidence and the loss of ability to swim in the
world because you're always being told you're using the wrong stroke.
So with that in mind, go ahead.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Sorry to one of your points and that just, just made one of the metaphors
that I have come up with is what, what brand of phone do you use?
I use a Samsung.
A Samsung.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Uhhuh an
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Android.
So do we actually, not a Samsung, but well, you've got a Samsung, I
think there's, there's basically two different operating systems.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Both of them work.
Yeah.
Samsung, you can do everything on a Samsung essentially, that you
can do on an Apple, an iPhone.
Mm-hmm.
Nothing wrong with either phone.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah,
Dr. Marc Evanko:
that's, that's the metaphor.
I agree.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, so here you are.
You decide, okay.
You know, Rebecca, you've had this life experience and at what point.
Do you guys decide?
Actually, yeah.
Let's start a, let's start something therapeutic with the fact that we,
'cause you've both got jobs, you've both got careers at this point.
You know, you, you've, and you, Rebecca, you've achieved your goal.
Your, you have a home, you have horses, you have a good relationship.
So why then go the ex this extra mile and start wilder wood.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Well, we wanted to find a way to highlight that connection
that we both believe exists, can exist between horses and humans.
We wanted to do something to help other people, especially autistic people.
And so how it all started is I first sought certification through
a very well-known certifying organization because I thought that
would be a helpful thing to do.
And that organization actually had training on autism and the
therapeutic riding relationship.
So I started enrolling in that and I was getting more and more frustrated.
And Mark was noticing that.
And he said, you know, what's wrong?
I thought you wanted to do this.
And I said, well, what they're teaching is not gonna work for autistic people.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
It's just not gonna work.
It's not gonna work for me and I'm not doing this.
So there's that black and white autistic thinking.
I shut it down.
And you know, so I actually, and I called them and I said, you know, when you were
designing this program, did, did you get actually any input from autistic people?
And there was this pause on the phone and they said, oh.
That would probably have been a good idea.
And I said, yes, it would have.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, at least they were honest enough to say that they were
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
honest.
They were very honest.
And, and then I just said to Mark, look, I don't wanna do this.
I, I wanna combine everything that we've done, all of our life experiences,
our horse knowledge and whatever.
I just wanna do something based on what we do, what we know,
and, and put put it out there.
And so that's, that's when it started.
It started really with a laptop in our living room and deciding to do this.
And it's grown from there and evolved as any healthy organization does.
Hmm.
And and now we're shifting off into this research component and this equine
EQU therapy and counseling component.
So it's, it's grown up, up to there.
Rupert Isaacson: It's great.
You know, just to your point, I'm gonna ask you to go through your,
your, your three main, programs here.
But just quickly before I do, it's very interesting this point about
not looking to the people that have the condition to advise one about
how to approach the condition.
You know, because my background is journalism.
So like when I, I tried a BA other types of things too observed very
quickly that they weren't working and then thought, well, okay, fine.
And it hadn't occurred to me to do anything with horses, despite the
fact that I'm professional horseman.
'cause my son's behaviors were so erratic, I thought he wasn't safe around
sport horses, which is what I was doing.
And I was probably right actually at that time.
He wasn't.
He created his own relationship with the Mayor Betsy, as I, as I spoke,
you know, and then we followed that and that was a very different path.
But what I did do when I said, okay, well fine, I.
I dunno what I, I, I did what the people told me to do, didn't work.
So now what do I do?
It was the obvious thing to me to do to reach out to Temple Grand.
It's like, well there's someone with autism who started nonverbal, like
my son pooing in her pants, wiping it on the walls just like my son.
And now she's made it.
Well that's the obvious person who, like, who else are you
gonna go to for mentorships?
So I sat in an office with her and said, how does my son become you?
And she said, do three things.
I did 'em and everything went from there.
But I remember going back to the other therapist and saying, this is what I went
and did and getting it thrown back at me that I was like some terrible parent.
And I was like, well, based on what you know, okay, fine.
Let's just go our separate ways.
Fast forward 20 years.
Rowan, my son last year was actually hired as a consultant by a study at
Manchester Metropolitan University in the UK to consult on how to make equine
therapies better for autistic people.
And he was one of our.
Of a group of autistic consultants, of people who'd, who'd actually had a lot
of equine therapeutic approaches, and what did they think could work better
and what could be improved, and which, you know, it's such a rational, insane
approach, but it's taken 20 years.
And he now is on another panel for that.
And he helps me do trainings and he explains to parents and practitioners.
But of course, as you know, this wasn't around back in the day.
It was everyone and their opinion.
And you either were lucky enough to luck into an opinion that held water or like
most opinions, opinions that that didn't.
So now you are one of the evidence-based partly through your
own experience programs out there.
You've got, it was on your website.
You've got tism, you've got EQU therapy, and you've got Radiance, a
research tool with a w on the front.
Named after a horse that you have that's so a warm blood of the same name.
Can you just talk us through, A lot of listeners will want to know
what your programs consist of.
So can we start with Tism, then go to EQU Therapy and then go to the Radiance?
Would that be all right?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
We certainly can.
Jism is kind of an overarching principle.
There is a connection between there.
There are certain similarities between autistic people and horses.
I'll give you one example, parallelism.
Often you'll see horses out in the field who are communicating quite effectively
with each other, but they're parallel.
They're walking parallel, they're interacting on a parallel basis.
Autistic people tend to do that too.
We don't need to be, you know, in your face making eye contact talking with you.
I'm quite happy to sit here parallel to my husband and do my work and not necessarily
interact and I'm having a great time.
You know, that's one example of it.
So it's based on a premise that there are similarities between the
autistic way of viewing the world and an equine way of viewing the world.
It started off with that as experiences based on that idea, we
did not do therapy because I was not credentialed at that time to offer it.
So it was more of a interaction with horses just.
Interacting in the way that felt right for the person and the horse.
So autism as a concept is kind of a principle more so than a program now.
I am now qualified.
I have the master's in counseling and I have designed a program
called Counseling and EQU Therapy.
It offers both, it offers equine assisted therapy and also counseling
that can take place without the horse.
So it's kind of a dual counseling approach, but it is absolutely steep in
autistic knowledge, autistic preferences, honoring autistic communication,
honoring equine interaction.
And so clients can choose to do either the equine counseling, the
EQU therapy is entirely ground based.
We incorporate the principles of leisure tape interaction.
So acknowledging the horse as a partner, recognizing the importance
of communication, however that takes place not about structured
rules in terms of this is the way the horse is going to behave, but
what communication can we engage in?
What feelings and emotions rise out of that engagement and how can we analyze and
assess and synthesize those to make sense in a broader context to someone's life?
That those are the principles of the, of the F1 therapy and also the counseling
as well specializing in autistic women.
And because of that, there is a large grief component that is, that is addressed
because grief is one of the strongest feelings that can be present in a
late diagnosed autistic woman's life.
Grief over lost opportunity.
Grief over spending a lifetime thinking there's something wrong with me.
Grief in having to constantly mask and camouflage and not be authentic.
All of that needs to be worked through, particularly after a diagnosis.
So it's very much a niche counseling base.
And like most things I do in my life, I like to say slightly north of normal.
It's unusual.
A lot of it is based on, you know, as you were talking about what feels
right in this situation and, you know, yes, learn and listen from
others and take pieces of it, but put it together in your own unique way.
That's how you can make a, a, a difference.
I think that's how you can advance whatever it is that you're doing.
As far as the radiance is concerned, that's our research arm of what we do.
And we were very concerned about the standard and quality and
caliber of assessment instruments to identify autism in women.
So about four and a half years ago, we decided to change that and you
know, based on our knowledge and understanding, my PhD unwittingly looked
at aspects of autistic communication.
I didn't know it at the time, but it did.
We came up with the idea to develop not only a new instrument to psychometrically
assess for autism in women, but develop a new protocol around it as well.
So we came up with a survey instrument of 150 items of childhood and adulthood,
and we came initially started with an interview based assessment protocol.
We quickly realized the interview based was not going to work.
Rupert Isaacson: Why not?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
'Cause it's an interview is based on spontaneity, it's based on social
communication, principles of interaction.
Okay.
So these are things that autistic women, a
Rupert Isaacson: written interview.
This was actually a face-to-face interview.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Face-to-face interview.
Yes, it was.
It was, it was a struggle.
But this is the way the paradigm is.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
It's based on observation.
It's based on interview.
So I went back again to my own background.
My DA's in English, my masters in rhetoric and composition and literary analysis,
and my PhD's in cognitive linguistics.
So I went back to that and I said to Mark, we need to do away with the interview.
We need to construct, have them construct a narrative and analyze
that narrative through critical discourse theory to bring out themes
of what constitutes female autism.
Build our instrument and our protocol around that.
So we solicited participants and after four years now we've got over 900
assessments that we've done with input and narratives from over 900 autistic
women across the world that have enabled us to identify recurring themes of
what autism looks like in women, and adjust and create this instrument and
protocol of assessment that is much more finely nuanced to what's actually
going on in autistic women's lives.
We're very excited about it.
Not many other people have been excited about it because it's a
huge diversion from the paradigm.
The so-called gold standard instruments we think are quite problematic.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you gimme an example of, of what's called what people consider
at the moment a gold standard instrument,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
the A OS two module four, the A DIR interview based and what and how,
Rupert Isaacson: and because they're based on face-to-face interviews or
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
they're based on neurotypical norms that were standardized on male autistics.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Also on observation, there's a component of the ADOS two that involves
storytelling and it's based on an outdated understanding that autistic
people do not and cannot have empathy.
Ah, that okay.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Yeah,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
there was, there has been something out of the University of Newcastle
in the uk called the A CIA interview protocol that we were actually
trained on, and it's a step forward.
It does actually acknowledge some of the things about autistic
people, but it's interview based.
Mm.
And it doesn't have a compendium instrument that has been normed
on autistic women, 900 of them.
So we are very excited about the radiance.
We've just finished phase two which means we're not accepting any
more participants that we figured.
I think 938 getting close to is what we're at right now.
So we're just about to start venturing into clinical trial where we have
with clinicians, and I think we've got about 16, who are interested so far
in actually taking this instrument and protocol into their own practice and,
and using it in the field to assess.
As part of that phase three, we'll get that data back, make
modifications if necessary.
I'd like to think there will be no modifications, but there will be.
And then once that's completed, then that instrument will be ready
to publish and hopefully be used.
So we get to the point where women who think they're autistic, say, I want
a practitioner who uses the Radiance instrument and protocol to assess me.
Rupert Isaacson: So it would effectively be a diagnostic.
It's a diagnostic tool.
It
Dr. Marc Evanko:
absolutely,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Let me just put one point in about the Radiance that really sets it apart from
even the other surveys that are done.
First point is that there's no other survey that was devised by Autistics.
They're, they're all devised by non autistics,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
The.
One huge problematic part of any of the surveys that we actually use
parallel to the Radiance survey is the Likert Scale where people are
putting themselves to numbers very problematic, a as, almost as problematic
as the the interview in that the, the client gets caught between numbers.
I'm not really a four, but I'm not a three either.
Sometimes I'm a two and sometimes I'm a two.
And depending on the context, I could even be a one on this particular.
And so struggling through those surveys.
Mm.
Which we are delivering actually side by side with the ratings because
they are, quote, the gold standard.
They get to the radiance, which is a true false format of response.
So an an item on the radiance may say I what would be an example I liked?
I only wore one color or did not, did not like a certain color.
Very much.
True or false?
Yes or no?
Well, yes.
I, I mostly wore black when I was in, in, in elementary school.
I just didn't care about picking up any colors or matching.
Didn't like it would be the comment that we got.
That true false is so much more quick to, to come up with the actual response.
Our, we time it and our clients go through a 65 item, non-autistic derived.
Likert scale based survey that the 150 item radiance is done in
approximately half the time because the answer comes so much more quickly.
And the relief that our clients express immediately following the radiance
versus struggling through the non.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yeah, there's, I I think two of the things that comments that we
get that's so heartening to us is we often, very often get women who
say, oh my God, I feel so heard.
I feel so seen.
And we say, well, yes, of course you do, because this has been, this has been
created by, by input from autistic women.
And the other question we get is, doesn't everybody feel like this?
Doesn't everybody answer true to these?
And you know, of course in the, in the scope of our research, we
administer it to non-autistic people.
The answer is no.
No.
It's quite distinct.
The difference between an autistic response to a non-autistic response
and the true falses are weighted.
They're, they're weighted depending on the, the research that we did
based on the responses of non-autistic people and autistic people.
So it's a quite a complicated scoring system.
But it's just fascinating to us that these women think almost uniformly,
doesn't everybody think like this?
And it's a bit like that, that line from Temple Grand.
And when she was in that, in the film that was made about her, the
realization, the same realization.
Doesn't everybody think like me?
Dr. Marc Evanko:
No.
No, they don't.
She was 35 years old.
She said before she understood that not everybody thought this way.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm, yep.
Theory of mind.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Doesn't, doesn't come.
Naturally as one.
No.
No, absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's often one of the things that is where people mistake lack.
You know, the mistake about lack of empathy I think is
actually more accurately perhaps impaired theory of mind.
But that doesn't mean lack of empathy.
That just means a different way of expressing empathy.
And yes, I remember, you know, back in our early days with autism, hearing
that kind of lack of empathy thing, thinking I have this very loving
little boy who yes, you know, but who would express it differently?
And definitely we have to help him with theory of mind.
But that's a cognitive thing.
That's not an emotional response.
The emotional response is right there, and it's bang, accurate.
You know, he's not a psychopath.
He's just expresses it differently.
And I've, I remember finding that.
Perplexing that.
And then I say, ah, is this because in fact, a lot of people doing the diagnoses
are in fact and perhaps a lot of these tools were in fact created by Asperger's
men who might have had difficulty themselves with some theory of mind and
might have had a somewhat rigid worldview.
I mean, I'm thinking about people like Lova, you know,
who, who invented, you know?
Oh, must must.
You know, I, I, I had a really interesting interaction years ago.
I was in Houston and we were doing some autism thing or other, and I was
talking about the not great experiences I'd had with a BA and somebody said I
was lo VA's housemate at university.
Oh, wow.
85-year-old guy.
Yeah.
And I was like, what are the odds?
I said, well, tell him.
He said, well, Rupert, he was obviously, obviously Asperger's, and he himself had,
you know, suffered a fair or bit, and then he'd grown into a very big man who
could use himself very forcefully and.
Was just very interested that after the war, this new topic
of autism, and then there was Asperger himself ever in Austria.
And he saw this as an opportunity, but he didn't care from children at all.
You know, it was just a way to make a mark within psychology.
But was he on the spectrum?
Probably.
You know, that's, that's what he said.
And But had he been somewhat brutalized Yes.
And therefore, was that how he was going to approach things?
Sure.
'cause he was a product at the time.
And well, the rest is what we know, but it's, it's interesting that so
of course, you know, being as you know, you know, being autistic doesn't
make one a saint or a sinner, it just makes one what one is autistic.
Yeah.
You know, and but it's, what's clear is that the inability to see nuance, I agree
with you, does seem to be weirdly built into the frameworks of the diagnostic
tools and of most of the therapies.
Mm-hmm.
And.
Given that we're dealing with humans who, as you say, you know, if you
give them, what, what number are you?
They'll say, well, on Tuesday it's one, but you know, by Thursday it has to
be six because of my menstrual cycle.
Or the fact that we've got, you know, a, a, a low atmospheric pressure or
I ended up in this situation with, you know, this authority figure,
which automatically presses my amygdala, so therefore I become a two.
You know, and then you could look at that and say, well, that's anybody, right?
So, yes.
'cause we're all human.
So if we're autistic human or non-autistic human, we're still human.
So I think if the, if, if the aliens were to come down and look at us and go, well,
okay, that one's got a diagnosis and that one doesn't, but, you know, they all
look kind of the same and they kind of, you know, get upset about this and, you
know, not upset about that more or less.
And, you know, it, it shows that they are more nuances and personality types,
I think than, but, but, but we can make too much or too little of them.
But I, but I agree with you.
When it's about actually trying to do a diagnostic tool, then that's
when one has to dive into the nuance and make it a huge thing.
Otherwise, how can it work?
Particularly if it's gonna work across the board.
The, the, the, the question that comes up for me when you're describing
this, of course, is I'm thinking, well, this of course would work
for presumably male autistic people as well as female autistic people.
So the radiance think surely that's something that could
work across the genders.
Or do you think it's specifically female?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Well, we started off by including males and in, in the, in the
first phase of the research.
And then we decided we're just gonna focus on females.
So yes, we have used the radiance to assess males, not, not very
many compared to the females.
And I think that as an instrument, yes, it could be used, conceivably be used
it's an adult assessment instrument.
But I, I can say that our focus and our interest is on autistic females.
Yeah.
And as they present.
So yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think though, perhaps, you know, if we look forward
20 years and let's say Radiance is, you know, it's a thing by then and it's a
diagnostic tool, do you think there's just a natural evolution that then there
would be a radiance for men as well?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I, I'd like to see that.
I think that that's probably an, an area that someone else could take on.
Mm-hmm.
You know, at our age, I think we're sort of coming to the end
of our research careers and this that contribute the radiance is
something as our contribution to it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I, I certainly hope that there would be more research that's done that's
based on input from the people who are going to be served by the instrument.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
I, I'd like to throw in a point about this is, is that the
diagnosis of males has largely molded the stereotype.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
And so males are generally.
Much more easily diagnosed.
Not that they're more in number necessarily, it's just that they are
looked for much earlier in their lives.
One of the thoughts about that is because females actually are much more easily
mask and learn these nuances, don't know what to do about it, but know how to
mask themselves so that, as you mentioned earlier, they fly under the radar
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
As until about middle school, seventh, sixth grade, when the social
pressures really start kicking in.
Mm mm-hmm.
And it becomes way more than that female, that girl can handle.
And she comes home.
After having been so smiley and so wonderful at school, and the teachers all
love her and she's extremely smart and comes home and melts down at four o'clock,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
meltdown
Dr. Marc Evanko:
in the afternoon and can't communicate with her parents and
is throwing things and is having fits over, I can't do this anymore.
That wasn't me at
Rupert Isaacson: all.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Yeah, no.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So here's the question.
Yeah, I, I totally, I totally see the logic.
Here's a question, practical question.
So, let's say that same goal in a couple of years goes through a radiance, diag
assessment and gets the diagnosis.
What could, particularly within the American system, what could change?
For her because of that, that would be to her advantage.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
We can testimonials, we, we, we've actually got unsolicited emails back from
our clients, not just at, at the age that you're talking about, but across ages.
Saying, I can't believe how it's changed my,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
it's changed everything,
Dr. Marc Evanko:
perception of myself and everything around me.
And I am, I am so able to now navigate simply because someone
has heard me the imposter syndrome.
Am I or am I not autistic?
I'm acting this way.
Well, maybe I am a borderline personality.
I've been told that it doesn't, I've looked it up, it doesn't fit well, but.
And then I started, somebody told me, a counselor told me I may be autistic.
So I did my deep dive in autism.
And by gosh, it, that really seems to fix,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
explain so much.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
And now I can ask for just incandescent light in, you know, I, I know, I know why
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
flu restin like bothers me so much.
I know why I can't spontaneously contribute to these meetings at work.
I know why I prefer to send email than the phone, and I'm okay.
I, I'm okay.
Somebody asked me that question actually.
They once, they said, well, what'd you bother getting a diagnosis for?
You're not gonna be able to access services.
It's not gonna change anything.
You know, you're 49 or whatever it is.
Why'd you do it?
What difference does it make?
And I thought about this question and I said it changed everything.
It changed everything
Rupert Isaacson: that I can absolutely see.
Yeah, no, that, that makes perfect sense to me.
Self-advocacy effectively.
And definitely within our programs, self-advocacy is always
kind of what we're aiming for.
That somebody can say, okay, look, this is me.
This is what I'm gonna need.
But in return, if you can accommodate me here with these environmental
things, these sensory things, et cetera,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I can my best, well, not up my best.
Well, not so much self-advocacy as it as it was self-understanding
for the first time in my life.
Mm-hmm.
I could look at myself and say, there's nothing wrong with you
after being told my entire life.
Mm-hmm.
There's something wrong with you.
You don't fit in.
You are the constant.
You are the one who's got the broken relationships.
You are the one who can't keep a job.
You are the one who can't stay at school.
You are a problem.
For the first time, I said to myself, I'm not a problem.
I'm autistic.
I think differently.
It was right.
No life changing.
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Take it from there.
I'm thinking about the girl that you've just described, who, who's
melting down when she gets home from school because school is school.
It's one of the reasons, for example, why we have this program called Movement
Method, which was originally a homeschool program for my son, which is now to my
astonishment, being taken on in schools.
But it was specifically trying to address this let's say that girl that
you just described, she's getting home, she's melting down, so she,
the, the, the relationship with the parents is now compromised, so
that means the home environment is compromised and so on and so on.
She goes through the assessment, she gets the diagnosis, does do things
improve for her because then when she gets home, her parents know.
She needs space.
She needs time to recharge and recover, and therefore the demands that we can
make need to be rethought because she's exhausted by what she's had to the
energy she's had to expend dah, dah, dah.
So therefore things go better at home.
So therefore, you know, I I Is that where or, and she can then go to teachers and
say, or parents go to teachers and say, look, this is what's going on with her.
Can we make certain sensory accommodations?
Can we this, can we that?
And then, yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
How does it better
Rupert Isaacson: get better for her?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Well, it would be better.
More education is needed.
There is a huge amount of misinformation about autism in females.
The program that I have just gone through, the three year program.
Did not mention autism in females once it was mentioned in children,
and the only time it was mentioned in any of the textbooks or discussions
that I had in an adult was in a male with intellectual disability.
So a huge gap.
I think the type of programs that you are offering would go a long
way for that hypothetical girl.
She would not take the radiance.
The radiance is designed for adult women.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Now there could be a researcher out there who wants to take the work we've done on
the radiance and create one for girls.
We toyed with the idea.
We were gonna call it the cognac.
We might do it.
I don't know.
All of our research has been self-funded or funded by participants.
We do not get any government grants.
We have not had institutional grants.
No one is much interested in funding research into autistic women,
particularly a, a, a program that is designed to support and enhance them.
Cure, that's another thing.
And now we have RFK who's going down that rabbit hole as well.
So yeah, I think there is a huge opportunity here for the work that you
are doing, for the work that we are doing for other autistic researchers
to run with this and really start to make some inroads into an area
that has been woefully ignored.
Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, and it's so interesting, isn't it?
I'm, I'm thinking to someone I know who has this ex exact story.
She's now 30 and she is in fact now a researcher in the field.
She had the good fortune to have a pony.
Mm-hmm.
And the pony took up the slack.
But not everybody, of course, is in that position.
And I guess it's just listening to you speak and, and thinking about.
How so many, I think adolescent girls have this experience of being the one
who is bringing emotional upheaval into a family environment, but may or may
not have much choice in that matter.
And therefore, if this were better understood, particularly when it
hits that middle school pain point.
Yes.
You know, how much better could things be?
And I suspect they could be much better.
So I'm also, it's natural for me to imagine in my journalistic
mind, okay, the radiance goes out there and it gets a momentum.
And then it would seem to me almost inevitable that a cohort of
probably female researchers, but possibly also male, might go listen.
Maybe we need this actually much earlier so that we're not picking
up people who are so traumatized by, you know, lives gone wrong that
they have to kind of rethink and rebuild and reframe in middle age.
Do we need to, does it need, does that need to happen?
No, it doesn't.
If we can think more intelligently about this and this is, this
is the, now the other problem.
Remember we started with tribe.
One of things that's also very difficult, and this is a point I'm making often
when I'm working with young autistic adults, is it, while it is true that
neurotypicals must and should meet you more than halfway, you have to meet
them halfway too, because Absolutely.
That's just the world we're in, you know?
And.
Whether that's a should or whether that's a shouldn't, it's and is and mm-hmm.
That's a set of survival skills.
So it's like, you know, for example, I have to speak other languages.
I live in Germany, I have to speak German, I lived in France, I had to speak French.
I'll be going to live in Spain soon.
I have to learn Spanish.
I just will have to, whether I wanted to or not is completely irrelevant.
If I want to be able to get around in America, I have to get a driving license.
Do I wanna drive?
Do I not wanna drive irrelevant?
Gotta have one or, it's very difficult.
But it doesn't mean that I stop being me.
I'm just me with a set of skills.
So, but what's so hard for parents?
I think, and as you say, in families where there is autism, one of
the parents can also be autistic, which can add, you know, variables.
They often have no support.
Right.
Without tribe, it's almost, you know, and I, it's almost impossible.
And I, I had this good fortune to spend all this time with indigenous
people where there is a lot of support.
No one is left unsupported.
Everyone in the community regards anyone else's struggle as something that everyone
else has a partial responsibility for.
Because if one person fails, the whole thing can fold and
everyone gets eaten by hyenas.
That's no good.
So we step in and people might grumble about it, but people
step in and help automatically.
We know that that's just not how things are set up, you know?
So I'm just thinking back to your story, Rebecca, you know, I mean,
your mom, whatever was going on with her was also isolated and alone.
Probably didn't have the skills to cope, you know, might have had some
sort of diagnosis going on herself of something, or rather, who knows?
Had plenty of, so couldn't cope folded.
Off made the wrong decision, but there was no granny, there were no aunts.
There was no greater sisterhood or council of elders or to Yeah, and
Dr. Marc Evanko:
well in, I'm wondering if that's the greater Yeah, go ahead.
The greater society here in modern society in the United States at least, has largely
evolved into a situation like that.
There are pockets within, within this culture where that
is still strongly supported.
That tribe mentality is still but very few.
Yeah, very few.
And so everyone almost has that isolation because there is not that support.
There are the, there are some.
Church communities that maybe do exactly what you were talking about
where everybody bands together and, and maybe there's some grumbling, there are
the elders, there are these somebody who is able to cause that group of
people to be more cohesive and, and more supportive of any one of them.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
It's cultural too.
You talked about the Kal Kalari, the Australian aboriginal culture.
Yeah.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Same thing
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
is very, very much about communal responsibility for every member.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you know, in, in the 25 years or so, I was living in the USA and particularly
once we got into this work, I noticed that often when we're in Texas, so a a certain
proportion of our, you're in New Mexico of our clientele was always Hispanic.
And they often had better outcomes.
Because there was just more support, there was more familial support.
Yep.
Among the white middle class, very little.
And where that might have not been true 50 years ago, there'd been more family farms
that had been more family businesses.
It just was not the case anymore.
And I, I, when we first started running what we call play dates, we never called
it therapy 'cause we're not therapists.
And by the way, I never even met a kid that wanted therapy.
You know, oh, I'd like some therapy today, my, you know, no, no.
They, they might wanna play or go ride their pony or doesn't mean that
it can't be therapeutic, but yeah.
So we've always called it play dates, you know, and, but I, what, what I noticed
was, of course, I needed the siblings there because I didn't know your kid.
Right.
Your kid doesn't trust me, doesn't know me.
Coming in with an overactive amygdala full of fear.
So if I have the brother and the sister there, they'll give me all sorts of intel.
Like, don't do this, make sure you do that.
She hates this kind of sound or smell.
She loves that, you know, not that dog but that dog, you know, blah, blah, blah.
When it makes the funny noise, it means this, this is amazing.
I need all this into, you know, so it might take me three, four years of
building relationship before I could, you know, learn that about somebody.
So I needed to make things attractive for the siblings.
So, of course, let's say there was a sister generally well riding
lessons, you know, happening for free.
You know, that was generally pretty good.
Maybe the boys didn't care from horses, but he loved soccer
or something, or martial arts.
And I had friends who were semi-pro soccer coaches.
I'd ring that guy up and say, I need you on Tuesday at this play date.
And so then the brother would find that he was getting all this
amazing soccer coaching because.
Siblings autism, not in spite of.
And it changed the dynamic within the family.
And then the parents were coming and suddenly saying, oh my gosh, all
of our kids' needs are being met.
We can actually have time to reach out to each other and swap information.
Because the best information you always get is from other parents.
What worked, what didn't work?
And we realized we'd stumbled into Tribe and I was doing it partly 'cause
I was so isolated from my tribe.
And so I wanted kind of a social life for my kid.
I kind of wanted a bit of a social life for me.
And I was also curious to see if what we were doing would work with other kids.
So I I, I wonder if that's also what you found that you are doing at Wilder Wood.
Do you feel that you've actually also created Tribe there and that
through these protocols that you're doing, you're helping to create wider
tribes, you know, and that wider supports out now away from Wilder Wood.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yeah, absolutely.
And it was almost by default particularly with our research that we've created,
this community of autistic women who are connected now through the Radiance and the
letters and emails that we get outlining the difference that this has made.
We got one last week from someone that we diagnosed two years ago, and you
know, she was saying since getting the diagnosis, she's found others like her and
she's been able to establish an interest.
And she's halfway through a baccalaureate program in psychology and she wants
to go out now and be trained as a therapist to help other autistic women.
So she's found that connection and the thread started with finding
this community or this tribe.
So
Rupert Isaacson: do, do you have plans to set up some sort of, I mean, training
where people can learn to do what you do and then set up effectively Wilder Woods?
All over the place.
Not dissimilar to what we did with horse boy.
There are horse boy places around.
That's something that could happen.
'cause I think there's a need for what you're talking about
quite a, quite strongly.
We
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
certainly, well, I appreciate you saying that.
I think I look at the things that people like you do Rupert,
and I'm just in awe of you.
I think what you do is amazing.
I think you're an in incredible inspiration and what you've done
for your son and with your son and by extension, the autistic and
the A DHD community is incredible.
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I don't know that I have the energy or the drive to do that.
I think that getting the radiance out there is important.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
I think
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
training clinicians in how to use it is important.
But I think that offering what I do here and having the opportunity to
talk with other like-minded people.
Is also very important, but multiple Wilder Woods, I'm not sure.
I don't think so.
Well, I wonder if that's something that will happen indirectly.
Rupert Isaacson: It doesn't.
I mean, it doesn't have to happen through like a certification program or something.
But I, I just wonder if that, because surely, you know, when you're going
out there and talking to other women with your condition, you are
probably at some point saying to them, Hey, listen, you need support.
And here are some tips for how to find it, right?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yeah, absolutely.
And I really like the idea of other autistic people going out and creating
other elements or other parts or other components that they've taken from
it, rather than, you know, me and Mark being sort of the, the ones doing it.
I like the idea of it spreading through the community.
Right.
And the community taking responsibility for it.
You know, rather than the more individualistic, oh, this is Mark's
and my program and, you know, we're going to, you know, teach others.
No.
Take what, what you've learned from us.
Reject what you don't like and go out and do something in your part of the community
so we can create and spread this.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Yeah.
This is an interesting thing that we've also experienced is people,
for instance, we, we put on a a community event in Albuquerque.
It was called Fest last year.
And I saw some stuff on it on your website.
Yeah, it looked great.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
It was, it was great.
And there were some of the, some of the people who made comments on a
Facebook or something like that, that were saying, well, you could have
done this and you could have done that, and why didn't you do this?
Our response to each other in our kitchen or in the was, why don't you do it?
We did this.
You go ahead and do that.
That's your idea.
Go for it.
Because what ends up happening in a lot of these instances is people like you,
Rupert, people like Rebecca are amazing people and are looked at for that drive.
It is, to some degree very, very inspiring to others who somehow don't have the
same intellectual, mental capacities.
Because there is a spectrum of that within humanity and those who are
part of the tribe and yet do not have certain attributes that allow
them to do those things with facility
end up dropping the ball.
It's, it's sort of like if there was in, in religions there is the
guy who is the Buddha who is the enlightened one, or the Christ who is
the enlightened one, and then there's the people who were immediately
around that person and they sort of get it, but not like that person did.
And after about two or three iterations down the road, it becomes like the
whisper game where we're whispering a sentence to someone and that
sentence goes around the circle.
It's not the same sentence by the time it gets back, because
you know what you're doing.
Rebecca knows what she's doing, and you do it very, very well.
And then it slightly gets diluted or changed a little bit and then
it gets changed a little bit more.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I agree.
That's an organic process, right?
And I, I think, yeah.
You know, this used to keep us up at night.
Years ago.
And then we realized well hold on.
In that case, if this is, if this is keeping us up at night, then
that means we need to simplify what, what, what does what, what's
the simplification of what we do?
Because there's all these different nuances, right?
And we realized that there's just this one thing.
If you're doing it, you'll probably be successful and you could take any of the
tools that we offer and run with them.
And that's why like our programs, they're just, they're just toolkits.
They're just like saying, here's a bunch of tools.
You're probably already doing something pretty awesome.
'cause a lot of people that we train are, you know, already
doing good things, right?
Don't change what you're doing.
Here are just some tools that you might find useful.
You know, the, the one, so there's one thing that allows those tools
to be used, and that's the ethic.
It starts with the autistic person.
It starts with Temple Grandin.
And the advice I got, which we never deviated from, which is follow the child.
Yeah.
That's great.
And so as long as you're doing that.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Because, because then it, because then it's not about horses.
If the kid's not into horses, but he's into balloons and bicycles and
Minecraft, I'm all about balloons and bicycles and Minecraft, you know?
Yeah.
There you go.
Then the horse is my therapy so that I can put up balloons and bicycles
and Minecraft, which I don't find interesting, but I can, I can mask and,
you know, pretend to find it interesting to, 'cause I'm interested in that kid.
But then the horse is actually helping me more than the horse is
helping, but it's Follow the child.
Follow the child, follow the child, and it, it, it sounds like
basically that's what a lot of the radiance is coming down to, which is
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Absolutely follow, yes, follow the artistic autistic
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
woman.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And then if there is a bit of a process of, as you said,
Chinese whispers down down the line, if, if, if, if you build that in to re
the radiance and it seems that you are.
Then it just becomes a great toolkit that any anyone can use.
And yeah, sure, some people might use it better than others, but, but at
least it's there and at least it's an improvement on the status quo.
You know, and, and that, and you know, you, you've gotta follow yourself as well
Rebecca, so, you know, you always thinking back to yourself as that 15-year-old
girl, would this, could this have improved things if it had been around back then?
The answer is for sure.
Oh God.
Oh, oh God, yes.
Oh God, yes.
You know?
Yeah.
And it's been good for the world that you went through that story because you've
done something really good with it.
But you know, as well as I do that not every girl has the, has
the same outcome that you had.
And we, we don't want every girl to have to go through that.
No.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: No.
So I massively appreciate what you're doing.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Likewise, we're pretty much in awe of you and what you continue to accomplish
and have accomplished, and we're just quite, well, I can't speak for Mark,
but I was quite amazed that why does Rupert Isaacson want to talk to me?
We all in
Rupert Isaacson: this field.
And he, you know, 'cause there was a time, you know this, Rebecca, I mean, 10
years ago we were all getting laughed at and you were just playing with ponies.
And my answer to that was, and what's wrong with that?
But then I realized, yeah, then maybe I better go talk to some neuroscientists and
find out actually why that's a good thing.
So that when people said that to me, I could say, okay, so here's
what's going on in the brain when you do this and here's what's going
on in the body and you do this.
And then they go, oh, oh, oh.
And then I could say, so where did you get your degree in neuroscience?
So you, you clearly, you know, and then that changed the thing completely when
they got on board, but we had to be laughed at for years before we got there.
So, no, why do I want to talk to you?
Because you're improving the field guys, and you are, you
are, you're getting the job done.
And I respect that.
And, and I want to, and I want to big you up and I want people to know
about you because we're all gonna be dead someday, and this has to go on.
We can't, we can't be going back to where things were 20, 25 years ago.
No.
Mm-hmm.
So the fact that you guys are advancing the field in this thoughtful way and
devoting your lives and your resources to this is incredibly important.
Of course, I want to talk to you.
Of course.
I Well, thank you.
To know about it's, yeah.
Yeah.
It goes without saying.
By the way, there's an unsung hero in all our programs.
And that is Ileana Lawrence who is my wife, and who is the person who's
responsible for the systematization of these things so that they can be
really taught and really replicated.
And she's super modest and she won't ever come on a podcast and she won't,
you know, but were it not for her?
No, this wouldn't be happening.
So it's not all me by any stretch of the imagination.
I happened to, if I had one good idea, I had one good idea.
And that was, I went to talk to Temple Grandin.
And then my second good idea was I said, yeah, I'm gonna follow that advice.
But I can't say that was through any natural talent.
That was just, that was just common sense.
It's like there's someone who, who has the knowledge go to that person, try it.
Does it work?
Oh, it works.
Keep doing it.
And I think, yeah, we are, we're all in this boat.
We had a breakthrough last year with our programs in Ireland where there's an
amazing man who you need to be aware of called David Doyle, who's an autism dad,
who started amazing work all over Ireland and based around the situation he found
himself in with his daughter 30 years ago.
And he proved at the place that he got going called Li Skint in County Limerick.
Look it up, Liz Kennet.
I'll send you a, a link.
That using movement method with autistic adults who were violent and
who often needed up to four minders, you know, by the time a someone's six
foot four and 250 pounds, and is so frustrated and so boiling over with.
30 years sensory stuff.
And, you know, you know, the, the score that anyway, that with, with
this over five years, they could bring that number of minders down to one.
And that of course saved the government over a million euros per person.
Wow.
And after five years of collecting the data, finally the Minister of Health
and Disability in Ireland, it's amazing they have a minister of disability.
Yeah, really it's incredible, eh when, you know what, the data's good
and they got behind it, this was fif 20, almost 20, between 15 and 20
years into the work we were doing.
And then that begins to have a knock on effect within the eu, eu, which then has
a knock on effect back to the uk, which then has a knock on effect back to the us.
'cause as you know, you're never an authority in your own backyard.
You know, your stuff will be adopted in Germany.
You're right across the usa.
It's just how it goes.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the other reason why we all need to be talking and that's why
we need podcasts like this, because we need to be aware of each other.
Because I'm going to be talking.
So we have what's so for listeners, you're gonna be listening to this whenever,
but this happens to be July of 2025.
So in August of 2025, we'll be having what we call our Horse Boy Tribe Day.
We should really call it tribe Days 'cause it's over a long weekend and
we get together internationally.
And this year it's in one of our places in Ireland, a place called Stewart's Care.
Kil Coon, just outside of Dublin.
Well, I'm gonna be talking about your, and I'm gonna be saying go
check that out, because that's what we all rely on each other to do.
We're like, how?
I wouldn't know this.
I didn't found out about you because of our mutual friend.
Lisa Deon.
Lisa.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, if you haven't heard my podcast with
Elisa Deon, who does the Echos Film Festival, so over on my live free, ride
free podcast, go and check her out.
She's an amazing human being with a heart about as big as Oh yeah.
Chicago, where she comes from, and she turned me onto your back
in April, said, Rupert, you've gotta check these people out.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: if Lisa tells me, I take her word for it, you know, so I
looked you all up and I went, oh yeah, no, they're, they're the real deal.
They're doing it.
But without her turning me onto you, I wouldn't have known,
you know, we're been too much,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
too much
Rupert Isaacson: information out there.
We're
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
back, back to tribe again and tribal communication.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: right.
So, back to putting stuff out in the world, you've also written a book.
Tell us about the book.
Yes.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Oh, it's, so, it was, I wrote it at the urging of Mark because my, my attitude
was, well, who wants to know about me?
Nobody's interested in me.
Rupert Isaacson: That was still, that's still your attitude.
That's just my attitude.
Well, the thing is where you're right about that honestly, is
they're not interested in you.
They're interested in your story.
When people read the horse, boy, they're not interested in me.
They're interested in the story.
So you are right in a way, but you do have a very good story.
So tell us the story.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Well, it's just basically what I, what I went over earlier today.
It's just the story of what happened to me and that I was basically abandoned.
Gave up on, I had a grade nine education or autistic, no family,
no support, no money, no nothing.
And I kind of, worked my way through it and, you know, ended up going
back to school and getting now four degrees and, and doing what I do.
And it was the, basically that was the story and interwoven
through that, how horses.
And my love of horses and my ability to connect with horses
probably saved me because it was the one constant in my life.
If I didn't have a horse, I was reading about them.
I was thinking about them.
I was, I had them in my heart.
They have been a constant throughout my life, and I'm so incredibly
grateful to this guy beside me for opening up the opportunity where
I can now and have for the past 12 years, lived again with horses.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
This, well, one other thing that I wanna put out four in the context of,
of the, the book, that was an unspoken thing, but something that Rebecca
and I have both talked about is this concept of learned helplessness.
An ironic concept that people.
Whether autistic or not, who have certain things that are accommodated for them,
actually don't learn as well how to do those things because it's easier for them.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Rather than going through what Rebecca had to go through, because that was her life.
She did not learn helplessness.
She had to find ways.
Her executive function is very poor, but she had to compensate by having
three different memory devices for moleskin, her diary and a second set
of on the computer of calendaring.
That, that she.
Invented for herself out of necessity if she hadn't learned and
taught herself to do that because there was no one else around.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Hmm.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
She would not be here with me today.
And I reinforce this fairly often, this concept of learned helplessness
is intermingling with societies that first world societies that so easy to
get just about anything you desire.
Rupert Isaacson: Things Yes.
I mean that you desire, I mean it's, it's rendering neurotypicals,
helpless that is, that is accurate.
The, the, that is accurate.
The, the assumption that everything.
Is gonna be at your fingertips all the time.
Means that yeah.
Don't
Dr. Marc Evanko:
work.
And you going, yeah, you going to the Kalahari or me going out backpacking
in the, in the mountains of New Mexico or Colorado and getting lost sometimes
on purpose so that I'm challenged.
And you were challenged because the hyenas are out there.
Oh yeah, they are.
And, and that's the metaphor for all of it.
In the first world, the hyenas are the bankers and the, and the businessmen.
And, and they are the ones who are there waiting.
Rupert Isaacson: Get this to take in the hunter gatherer context, which is
the authentic human context, right?
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: The predator is never.
I repeat Never your fellow human.
Hmm.
They don't kill each other.
They don't pray upon each other in those ways.
If that comes in after they're displaced, then society breaks down and then
they do those things to each other.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Hmm.
But
Rupert Isaacson: when things are going authentically, it's actually, it's
so, human culture is actually in its authentic sense, a culture of conflict.
Resolution not, yes.
Of conflict creation.
Now we live in a society where the only predator is our fellow human.
And that bens us nuts.
Because it is nuts.
And that means that even if you're a neurotypical, it's no holy grail.
You're, you, you're, you're going mad with absolutely that
kind of psychological pain.
'cause you're living in the world that's as it should not be.
And a part of your subconscious is like, this is wrong.
And I think everybody has that voice screaming all the time,
but you might not even know why, because you're so far removed.
It's not your fault.
This learned helplessness thing is so interesting because one
does need to be taught skills.
And it's so interesting in those hunter gatherer context, kids
are given absolutely, absolutely unconditional, unconditional love.
They're always carried on the body.
You're not gonna put 'em down where there's snakes and scorpions.
They're always between two adults at night because if you put them on
the other side of a high highness will come in and they will take
your kid and you will not wake up.
They know how to do that.
So you wouldn't dream of putting them even half a meter away from you.
They'll take your boots if you take your boots off, you know, and it's
also below freezing at night, so you're gonna have the child here and then it
will graduate to a pack of siblings and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But what's so weird with that level of support is that when they reach about 16.
They can take a spear, go into the bush, dodge all the dangerous stuff,
come back with a meal for everybody.
Two years after that they can go down to Johannesburg in the city and get a job in
the mines, learn to speak eight languages, suddenly learn to be a mechanic.
'cause they've just kind of looked at their powers of observation are
so good from tracking, they can just kind of, oh yeah, yeah, I can do that.
And then they learn to fix trucks and so on, and it happens.
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
So it seems that this total sequence in the early stages
leads to total independence later.
We seem to have it the other way round and that, you know, let the kid cry it out.
You know, make them be tough early.
And of course it just leaves them with great psychological holes.
I mean, I'm, any of us that we then have to fill in with things
like alcohol and whatever.
So it's different type of learned helplessness.
I agree.
And that seems to come down to tribe again.
And would you not agree that because you wouldn't want everyone to have to
go through what Rebecca went through because there'd be a, a wastage
and a casualty and attrition rate there that no, we don't want that.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
I would not recommend it, no.
Rupert Isaacson: But what if the horses can help us with that?
'cause horses, as you know, well, they're gonna give you that feedback.
Yes.
And you're gonna make mistakes.
And sometimes you get clunked and sometimes you, you're gonna have to modify
your behavior around them 'cause they just are and they're gonna teach you.
So with programs like yours, I think, you know, you can take someone who
might've been in Rebecca's or might be in Rebecca's situation and say, we are
not gonna give you do everything for you.
And it's not learned helplessness, but it is a safe container where you can Right.
Do that.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Educate.
Yes.
And that's, yeah.
The the youth programs that we've had are basically doing that here is, there's the
horse, here's the rope he has a halter on.
We're gonna let you figure out how to catch him.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
But, but it's not, it's not, it's not Desmond because they'll never catch him.
It's digger who is, is happy to be caught, but he'll walk a little bit away.
And then someone would graduate.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
To Desmond.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
To Desmond.
Yeah.
So that, so that it is an attainable task, but.
You hand a rope to someone and say, for that has never been around a horse
before and maybe has here, been here one time, adult or child, it doesn't matter.
Here's your rope.
There's the horse.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
What are you gonna dig?
And you're gonna learn to help yourself starting here.
And there'll be no, there'll be no punishments.
If you get it wrong, there'll be no negative outcome for you.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Something different.
And if it doesn't work today, we'll figure it out tomorrow.
Dr. Marc Evanko:
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: But figure it out.
We will.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I so respect that.
You know, we talked about the book, we didn't hear the title of the book.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Oh, it's Joy.
Rupert Isaacson: We like Joy.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Joy.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Because, because this is the other thing, you know, I love that you have that word
because when, when we're training people.
We're always saying, well, the problem's not autism.
Right?
Because there's lots of successful autistic people and
the problem's, not schizophrenia.
'cause there's actually quite a lot of successful schizophrenic people.
And there's, the problem is the suffering that goes with finding
yourself in the wrong place with these overwhelmed by all this stress.
Mm-hmm.
But, so the problem's actually suffering, not the condition.
'cause these conditions have always been around.
So what is the opposite of suffering?
If we want to, the opposite of suffering is joy.
Joy, yes.
So that's what we, you know, if, if, and again, you know, follow the child
work, I, I'd love that you call it joy, because that's what we have to do.
And if, if, if one gets these life skills, what's the point of them?
The point of them without
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
joy.
Right?
Yeah.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: and to experience joy.
To be able to access joy.
Right.
What do ponies bring into our lives?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Oh, absolutely, absolutely joy.
Rupert Isaacson: We are great purveyors of joy.
That's what we do.
That's, you know, we're lucky that we can do that.
So listen guys we've hit the two hour mark.
I'd love to have you guys on again.
Sure.
It's been, I feel I've only scratched the surface.
How do people find out about you?
Give us the web stuff.
How do they find out about Radiance?
How do they find about EQU therapy?
And m where do they get your book?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Website is the best place.
Wilder Wood equine
Rupert Isaacson: therapy.org.
Wilder Wood.
Equine therapy.
Word?
Equine?
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Org.
Org.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
ORG.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And the books on
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Amazon.
On Amazon, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Co,
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
co.
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you Co guys.
Thank you.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Thank you so much.
Thank you for the invitation.
We're very
Rupert Isaacson: grateful.
You, very
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
wonderful.
And we feel very privileged to be having had the chance to talk with you today.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise, likewise.
Thank you for making the time, and we will do it again.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
All
Rupert Isaacson: right.
Take care.
Take care guys.
Thanks a lot.
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
Bye-bye.
Okay.
Bye-bye.
Byebye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
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