WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.598 --> 00:00:17.658 Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.168 --> 00:00:19.668 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.668 --> 00:00:22.368 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:22.368 --> 00:00:22.428 Okay. 00:00:35.199 --> 00:00:37.299 Welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:40.329 I am your host, Jethro Jones, and excited to be here. 00:00:41.019 --> 00:00:44.919 The Transformative Principle Podcast is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network. 00:00:45.249 --> 00:00:51.969 We got great shows for everybody, so if you're listening and you wanna know something more about your role in education. 00:00:52.389 --> 00:00:59.139 There's a podcast@bepodcastnetwork.com, and if you don't find one, then we need to make one. 00:00:59.169 --> 00:01:08.019 So reach out and let's make a podcast because, uh, everybody needs to have their own individualized, personal professional development that helps them grow. 00:01:08.739 --> 00:01:12.909 And today, I'm excited to have on the program someone who's good at helping people grow. 00:01:12.909 --> 00:01:14.289 That is Chad Dumas. 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:16.539 He is, he's been on the show before. 00:01:16.794 --> 00:01:19.584 So go back in the archives and, and check out that episode. 00:01:19.584 --> 00:01:32.364 There's a link to it in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org, but he is a solution tree, PLC and RTI at Work Assessment and Priority Schools associate an international consultant, presenter, and award-winning researcher. 00:01:32.364 --> 00:01:34.704 I. Uh, he's written three books. 00:01:34.704 --> 00:01:39.774 Let's put the C in PLC, an action guide to put the P in to put the C in PLC. 00:01:39.774 --> 00:01:43.314 And his newest book, the Teacher Team Leader Handbook. 00:01:43.854 --> 00:01:47.244 And this one is focused on teacher team leaders. 00:01:47.244 --> 00:01:56.694 And so we all know that educators sometimes get thrust into these leadership positions, maybe because they're good in their classroom, maybe because they're good leaders. 00:01:56.934 --> 00:02:00.084 But Chad delivers a wealth of knowledge on how to. 00:02:00.549 --> 00:02:03.129 Actually help those people be successful. 00:02:03.129 --> 00:02:05.619 So Chad, welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:02:05.619 --> 00:02:06.579 Great to have you here. 00:02:07.179 --> 00:02:08.109 Thank you, my friend. 00:02:08.109 --> 00:02:09.279 It's great to see you again. 00:02:09.699 --> 00:02:10.659 Yes, you too. 00:02:11.019 --> 00:02:17.229 So, uh, so your book is really focused on two things, who you are and what you do. 00:02:17.229 --> 00:02:28.809 And so I wanna talk first about that idea because so often we get involved in the, the strategies and the tactics, and we can actually solve a lot of problems. 00:02:29.184 --> 00:02:31.374 Before we even get to any of that 00:02:31.619 --> 00:02:32.039 Mm-hmm. 00:02:32.124 --> 00:02:36.144 the different way we approach things, the different mindsets we have and things like that. 00:02:36.144 --> 00:02:39.774 So tell us about the difference between who you are and what you do. 00:02:40.554 --> 00:02:41.304 Oh yeah. 00:02:41.334 --> 00:02:50.844 So as you said, teachers, uh, many times get thrown into, if you will, these team leader roles and, um, because they're. 00:02:51.659 --> 00:02:55.739 good teachers or respected by staff, or maybe a combination of the two. 00:02:56.789 --> 00:03:04.679 And dealing with adults is different than dealing with students on a variety of levels. 00:03:05.429 --> 00:03:15.299 so thinking about who we are and what we do as two sides of the same coin, and sometimes I refer to that as being and doing. 00:03:16.029 --> 00:03:17.889 Who you are and what you do. 00:03:18.249 --> 00:03:19.539 And you're exactly right. 00:03:19.539 --> 00:03:25.809 If we just skip to the doing part, which is in some, kind some ways, uh, kind of the sexy part, right? 00:03:25.809 --> 00:03:28.509 Like that's the really attractive, like that's what we wanna get to. 00:03:28.509 --> 00:03:30.609 Just gimme a tool, give, gimme a process. 00:03:31.869 --> 00:03:43.179 The problem is, is if we jump to those tools or processes without really being clear about who we are, about our role, our assumptions, and our mindsets, those tools. 00:03:43.944 --> 00:03:51.324 Can become or even, or at least be perceived as manipulative, and that's not helpful. 00:03:52.164 --> 00:03:54.834 Yeah, now right there like that. 00:03:54.834 --> 00:03:55.464 Piece. 00:03:55.794 --> 00:04:06.804 So like people call it the dark side going over to leadership or administration because it seems like you are being manipulative and people may not be able to articulate that that well. 00:04:06.979 --> 00:04:07.339 Mm-hmm. 00:04:07.404 --> 00:04:19.854 you implement the strategies and they are not true to who you are, that's where the real challenge comes because people can tell you're not being truthful about who you really are in doing this. 00:04:19.854 --> 00:04:21.474 Can you give a a couple of examples? 00:04:21.474 --> 00:04:22.794 I've got a couple too, but I want to hear. 00:04:23.274 --> 00:04:26.694 Some examples of where, where this really is obvious. 00:04:28.149 --> 00:04:28.599 Yeah. 00:04:28.749 --> 00:04:33.219 So I'm thinking of some, some folks I've worked with over the years who, um. 00:04:34.749 --> 00:04:52.179 Others did not perceive them as being genuine, authentic, and what they pointed their finger to when they would interact with this person, they would always reframe what the other person said by saying, I think what I hear you saying is. 00:04:53.709 --> 00:04:54.699 Just like that phrase. 00:04:54.699 --> 00:05:11.199 I think what I hear you saying is there's like three eyes in that sense and all of a sudden it becomes about them and then they would, they would rephrase, but with their own take and they wouldn't really be after finding out whether or not that was actually what they thought they heard you say. 00:05:12.249 --> 00:05:16.954 then they would go on into their own set, their own agenda, and that whole series. 00:05:18.114 --> 00:05:36.084 Becomes perceived as manipulative, even though you, they're using the skill of paraphrasing, for example, be even using skills of pausing as part of that, but if there's not that purity of intention, then that whole series of actions becomes perceived as manipulative. 00:05:36.699 --> 00:05:37.119 Yeah. 00:05:37.149 --> 00:05:49.089 And, and that's a great illustration because we're told all the time that we need to do active listening and, you know, paraphrase what people are saying and make sure we seek to understand first, which that sounds like what that is. 00:05:49.449 --> 00:05:54.159 But when it comes down to it, that's not always the case. 00:05:54.159 --> 00:05:57.879 And so if you have a particular agenda or a particular. 00:05:58.509 --> 00:06:02.469 Perspective, and you're not willing to actually hear what someone else says. 00:06:02.499 --> 00:06:11.289 And you're like, you know, I think what I hear you saying is this is absolute baloney and I'm not gonna listen to anything else that you say because you're an idiot. 00:06:11.829 --> 00:06:13.749 That's what comes outta your mouth. 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:22.749 Even if you're saying all the right things, the feeling and the uh, intention, that's what comes out and that makes it really difficult. 00:06:23.139 --> 00:06:26.229 And so it, it can't just be about the strategy. 00:06:26.754 --> 00:06:29.059 And the tactics, uh, any others that come to mind? 00:06:30.504 --> 00:06:31.194 No others. 00:06:31.464 --> 00:06:44.394 Not off the top of my head, but what, what you were just saying made me think about, um, coherence and I think of my own self and striving to live a, a life of coherence. 00:06:44.724 --> 00:06:53.214 And what I mean by that is that I'm the same person when I'm with my wife as I am when I'm with my kids, as I am when I'm with. 00:06:54.084 --> 00:07:00.654 administrators as I am with a team of teachers as I am in the grocery store, that there's this coherence in my life. 00:07:01.704 --> 00:07:07.284 And I think that's also this idea of being and doing where there's that coherence. 00:07:07.584 --> 00:07:14.034 And in order to be coherent, we have to be aware of who we are as people. 00:07:14.154 --> 00:07:20.274 And so raising these assumptions and mindsets, and, and I'm not saying you have to hold these. 00:07:21.684 --> 00:07:28.884 What you do have to do is raise what are your assumptions and mindsets in dealing with other people so that you can make sure that you're authentic and coherent. 00:07:29.304 --> 00:07:29.694 Yeah. 00:07:30.054 --> 00:07:37.044 Well, and and I am reminded of the advice I got my first year as an assistant principal where we had a consultant. 00:07:37.044 --> 00:07:43.344 He was like 80 years old and had been doing this for generations, literally like. 00:07:44.124 --> 00:07:47.754 60 years he'd been a school leader or working with school leaders. 00:07:48.174 --> 00:07:57.054 And he said, if there's one thing I can tell you, Jethro, it's that you don't ever blame any decision on the district office. 00:07:57.534 --> 00:07:58.764 It you either 00:07:58.874 --> 00:07:59.294 Mm-hmm. 00:07:59.424 --> 00:08:06.864 like crazy to make that thing not happen, or you own it and you say, this is my decision. 00:08:07.344 --> 00:08:11.184 And if you can't believe that, then you're not cut out for this. 00:08:11.484 --> 00:08:13.404 And if you can't believe that, you either. 00:08:13.854 --> 00:08:23.574 Go to bat like crazy to get rid of that decision overturned, or it is 100% yours, then, then you're not gonna belong for this world. 00:08:23.904 --> 00:08:32.034 And that was him basically saying, you know, you gotta, if you're gonna, if you're gonna make a decision, you gotta own it 100%. 00:08:32.484 --> 00:08:36.084 And even if you think it's a terrible idea, you're still making that decision. 00:08:36.114 --> 00:08:39.444 Otherwise you need to go against the powers that be. 00:08:39.789 --> 00:08:41.559 And, and refuse to do it. 00:08:41.889 --> 00:08:54.819 And so I did that, um, a few times in my, in my career, but one time in particular, I said, we are not spending every one day a week for six weeks preparing for the state test. 00:08:55.059 --> 00:08:56.199 We're just not gonna do it. 00:08:56.469 --> 00:09:03.609 And so we are going to do one practice day to make sure that all the technology works and it's gonna be 30 minutes. 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:05.019 And everybody's gonna get on. 00:09:05.019 --> 00:09:07.029 And once they're on, then we're gonna call it good. 00:09:07.029 --> 00:09:09.189 We're not gonna take the test and, and all that. 00:09:09.189 --> 00:09:11.379 We're just gonna check the technology. 00:09:11.829 --> 00:09:15.609 And, um, and the district was like, no, you have to do this. 00:09:15.609 --> 00:09:17.139 And I said, well, I'm just not going to. 00:09:17.409 --> 00:09:21.159 If that means that like, you're gonna fire me about this, then do that. 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:32.799 But we're not losing all this instructional time so that we can play this game of making sure things work for the test when if we are not confident that it's gonna work for the test, we shouldn't be doing. 00:09:33.114 --> 00:09:34.224 That stuff, right? 00:09:34.224 --> 00:09:36.384 Like there are bigger issues at play here. 00:09:36.414 --> 00:09:45.474 And so, so we did that and um, and it worked out fine, but I was like, there's no way that I'm going to endorse us doing this. 00:09:45.684 --> 00:09:51.954 And uh, my staff was like, we are nervous about this test. 00:09:52.434 --> 00:09:57.804 But because I wasn't nervous and felt confident, they were like, okay, maybe we don't need to be nervous. 00:09:57.834 --> 00:10:00.654 So all their teacher friends at other schools are like, oh, we're panicking. 00:10:01.614 --> 00:10:04.104 And they were like, well, we just haven't done anything with it. 00:10:04.104 --> 00:10:07.314 And, and so we can't, there's nothing to stress about. 00:10:07.314 --> 00:10:14.544 And that was actually a really helpful thing, uh, for everyone to experience because we ended up not needing to stress about it at all. 00:10:14.574 --> 00:10:15.834 And everything turned out fine. 00:10:16.674 --> 00:10:22.794 And what, what you're, I think one of the key things I take away from that great story, Jethro, is the importance of integrity. 00:10:23.274 --> 00:10:23.754 Yeah. 00:10:24.489 --> 00:10:29.109 And, and not only, not only integrity, but first of all, being aware of what are your values. 00:10:30.429 --> 00:10:43.929 Many, many times we haven't raised those values, raised those beliefs, and one of, one of the assumptions of the district office, if you will, was, Hey, if we do more test prep, kids will do better. 00:10:44.589 --> 00:10:44.919 Yeah. 00:10:45.069 --> 00:10:50.799 your assumption is, if we do more quality instructional environment, will do better. 00:10:51.099 --> 00:10:51.219 Yeah. 00:10:51.369 --> 00:10:52.449 you were clear about that. 00:10:53.004 --> 00:10:57.264 Then acted integrity in that, in that way, 00:10:59.109 --> 00:11:01.959 And, and that goes back to your piece about coherence. 00:11:02.049 --> 00:11:05.139 Like I need, if I need to know what my values are. 00:11:05.139 --> 00:11:15.189 So let's talk about values for a minute, because this is something that I harp on people a lot, is you have to be true to your values and clear about what those values are. 00:11:15.549 --> 00:11:20.289 And, and if you're not, then it's really easy for those things to. 00:11:20.979 --> 00:11:27.069 Uh, for you to not come across as authentic and for you to look manipulative and, and all that stuff. 00:11:27.069 --> 00:11:37.629 So what, what advice do you give to someone who is, who's new in this role of being a teacher leader and they've just been in the classroom and now they're supposed to lead their peers? 00:11:37.929 --> 00:11:42.549 Uh, how do you, how do you help them be true to who they are and know what their values are? 00:11:43.569 --> 00:11:53.079 Yeah, so I start with, uh, clarity about what the responsibilities are of a teacher team leader, and I've not seen anybody articulate what the responsibilities are. 00:11:53.169 --> 00:11:55.389 Typically, it's, Hey, go off and good luck. 00:11:58.114 --> 00:11:59.014 No news is good news. 00:11:59.154 --> 00:11:59.814 Let us know if, 00:12:01.959 --> 00:12:04.989 As long as I don't hear anything bad, then you get to keep that job. 00:12:05.169 --> 00:12:05.259 Yeah. 00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:06.369 must be okay. 00:12:06.369 --> 00:12:11.469 And as long as there aren't, there's no, you know, objects flying during meetings, we'll be okay. 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:25.149 And what I articulate is three responsibilities, and the third is the one where you might hear people talk about, but it's actually the least important of the three, the first two responsibilities that are the most important. 00:12:25.359 --> 00:12:28.659 So the first responsibility is to make the safe space safe. 00:12:29.949 --> 00:12:30.999 Psychological safety. 00:12:31.329 --> 00:12:33.729 I'm not talking physical safety, I'm talking psychological safety. 00:12:34.419 --> 00:12:38.439 So that's without psychological safety, that team's not gonna go anywhere. 00:12:39.429 --> 00:12:43.209 And there's components of what that means to create that psychological safety. 00:12:43.209 --> 00:12:45.699 And then the second responsibility is to build capacity. 00:12:46.944 --> 00:12:56.004 That if, if you're not building capacity as a team leader, then as soon as you go right, somebody else isn't gonna be able to step up. 00:12:56.004 --> 00:12:58.914 And we want to build the capacity of everybody to provide leadership. 00:12:58.914 --> 00:13:03.504 And then the third responsibility, it's the least important of them, is about doing the work. 00:13:04.434 --> 00:13:06.234 And there is work that needs to be done. 00:13:07.134 --> 00:13:13.614 However, that work's not gonna be effective or efficient if we don't have psychological safety and if we don't have. 00:13:14.319 --> 00:13:18.699 Uh, a, a, a mindset of that responsibility of building capacity. 00:13:19.059 --> 00:13:23.019 So I think anybody who's starting on the role has to begin with that foundation. 00:13:23.019 --> 00:13:24.069 What is your role? 00:13:24.339 --> 00:13:27.549 Your role to ensure the effective functioning of the team. 00:13:28.929 --> 00:13:30.399 Now, what's the purpose of the team? 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:30.639 Right? 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.459 Because I just said in that role, ensure the effective functioning team. 00:13:33.459 --> 00:13:35.319 So what is the purpose of the team? 00:13:35.589 --> 00:13:38.139 The purpose of the team is to guarantee learning. 00:13:38.814 --> 00:13:43.974 Guarantee, like these are big words, huge words that we could spend an entire episode on. 00:13:43.974 --> 00:13:45.444 What does it mean to guarantee learning? 00:13:45.939 --> 00:13:46.239 Yep. 00:13:46.314 --> 00:13:52.134 any old learning, it's GU guaranteeing learning of team identified grade level essential outcomes. 00:13:53.364 --> 00:13:59.664 So we've got the role or ensure the functioning of the team, the purpose of the team guarantee learning. 00:14:00.324 --> 00:14:03.984 And then the three responsibilities of make it safe. 00:14:04.404 --> 00:14:06.144 Build capacity and do the work. 00:14:06.174 --> 00:14:12.324 And then from there, now we can move forward into, okay, so what does that mean for me as a person and for the work, uh, that I do? 00:14:12.909 --> 00:14:13.299 Yeah. 00:14:13.749 --> 00:14:14.079 Yeah. 00:14:14.079 --> 00:14:25.479 I, I really like that approach and especially their responsibilities because there could be a whole bunch of other things that, that your principal may have told you are your responsibilities. 00:14:25.719 --> 00:14:30.309 And like you said, those all probably fall in the category of doing the work. 00:14:30.549 --> 00:14:33.519 Like hold a meeting, go over this data. 00:14:34.074 --> 00:14:44.814 Uh, do these observations, whatever those things are, those are all doing the work, and you're absolutely right that those are the, uh, the least important of, of the three. 00:14:45.264 --> 00:14:47.994 So the psychological safety piece though, 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:49.239 Mm-hmm. 00:14:50.214 --> 00:14:55.074 that one is a really big deal because it, it basically comes down to. 00:14:55.764 --> 00:15:00.804 If, if there's not psychological safety, then again, nothing else matters. 00:15:00.984 --> 00:15:02.574 It doesn't matter what data you talk about. 00:15:02.574 --> 00:15:04.974 It doesn't matter what practices you implement. 00:15:05.274 --> 00:15:12.924 Doesn't matter how you talk to people, because if they don't feel psychologically safe, they're not going to trust you and move forward. 00:15:13.224 --> 00:15:13.734 Period. 00:15:13.734 --> 00:15:14.424 End of story. 00:15:14.724 --> 00:15:15.599 What else would you add there? 00:15:16.424 --> 00:15:17.354 Yes. 00:15:17.414 --> 00:15:25.994 And sometimes so I've been fortunate to be able to do some, uh, one and two day trainings on, uh, on these, this, this topic. 00:15:26.114 --> 00:15:34.364 And when I raise this idea of psychological safety, I'd say nine times outta 10 people will say, oh yeah, we have psychological safety. 00:15:34.394 --> 00:15:38.984 And then when you dig into it, what they have is nice. 00:15:40.809 --> 00:15:44.079 I, I grew up and was born and raised and most of my career was in Nebraska. 00:15:44.409 --> 00:15:49.269 And for about 10 years, the tourist slogan for Nebraska was Nebraska. 00:15:49.749 --> 00:15:50.499 Nice. 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:53.139 And it became like this thing in the state. 00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:54.279 We were like, yeah, we're just Nebraska. 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:54.489 Nice. 00:15:54.489 --> 00:15:56.319 And what does that mean the to your face? 00:15:56.469 --> 00:15:58.509 We're gonna smile, we're gonna nod. 00:15:58.749 --> 00:16:04.479 And then when the meeting's over, when we're in the parking lot with our car keys in hand, that's where the real conversation happens. 00:16:05.439 --> 00:16:07.689 That's how you know you don't have psychological safety. 00:16:08.769 --> 00:16:12.999 Psychological safety is that when you're in the environment, and there's two things, duh. 00:16:12.999 --> 00:16:16.779 Higg, uh, did a study with Google about eight, 10 years ago. 00:16:16.779 --> 00:16:21.279 Huge, massive study with the Google corporation to find out what makes for an effective team. 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:23.409 And they looked at all kinds of factors. 00:16:23.454 --> 00:16:25.734 For what makes, makes a team effective. 00:16:25.734 --> 00:16:39.834 And you know, you can imagine the hypothesis going into this thinking, oh, in order to be effective you have to have high levels of expertise or a lot of experience or, uh, people who are really good at their job or good treats, right? 00:16:39.834 --> 00:16:48.894 You could think about all the different hypotheses and what they found was there were, there was psychological safety and that, that boiled down to two things. 00:16:50.814 --> 00:16:53.124 is the degree to which. 00:16:53.499 --> 00:16:54.249 Folks. 00:16:54.339 --> 00:16:58.179 Uh, social sensitivity is the short shorthand term, short social sensitivity. 00:16:58.329 --> 00:17:05.049 That's the degree to which people read and respond appropriately to the nonverbal cues that we give. 00:17:06.999 --> 00:17:08.349 It's all nonverbal communication. 00:17:09.399 --> 00:17:10.959 is the first part of social sensitivity. 00:17:11.169 --> 00:17:13.659 The second part is equity of term taking. 00:17:15.414 --> 00:17:19.284 So equity of turn taking is pretty easy to to take care of in a meeting, right? 00:17:19.764 --> 00:17:30.114 You can develop some protocols, use protocols, use inclusion activities, use turn and talks, use pair shares, use talking sticks, a whole variety of ways to establish equity of turn taking. 00:17:30.114 --> 00:17:30.804 That's pretty easy. 00:17:31.194 --> 00:17:38.604 The hard part of psychological safety according to this study is that social sensitivity. 00:17:40.044 --> 00:17:40.914 Some of us have that. 00:17:41.829 --> 00:17:43.479 of us don't, and so we have to develop that. 00:17:43.719 --> 00:17:44.649 What does that mean? 00:17:44.889 --> 00:18:01.269 First of all, we have to know what are the nonverbal moves and techniques that others are using, and then how can I, as a teacher team leader, respond appropriately to be able to influence the group, to move in a positive direction towards that goal of ensuring effective functioning of the team. 00:18:02.334 --> 00:18:11.994 Well, and, and the amazing thing here is going back to what we said before, is that if you're not genuine in what you're saying, then it, it means nothing. 00:18:11.994 --> 00:18:13.464 So equity and turn taking. 00:18:13.824 --> 00:18:22.074 Does not increase, uh, psychological safety if everybody gets to say their piece and you're gonna decide on your own anyway. 00:18:22.134 --> 00:18:22.554 Right? 00:18:23.334 --> 00:18:36.264 Unless you say that out front and say, and, and so this is something that, that I counsel principals all the time with, is if you have made a decision already, you just need to say what that decision is. 00:18:36.304 --> 00:18:36.654 Right. 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:41.769 And, and people can come and complain to you after the fact, but you need to be clear. 00:18:41.859 --> 00:18:49.509 So, so there's a strategy that, that people often talk about where you let everybody else talk and then you have the final word as the leader. 00:18:49.929 --> 00:18:53.169 And that's fine if you don't have a decision that's made yet. 00:18:53.469 --> 00:19:03.549 But if you know, like, Hey, this is what we're gonna do and, and you're sure about it, then you need to get that out up front and say, here's, here's what I'm saying. 00:19:03.789 --> 00:19:05.799 This is, this is my stance. 00:19:06.639 --> 00:19:09.549 If we're gonna do anything different, you have to convince me of something. 00:19:09.549 --> 00:19:16.419 Otherwise, this is now your chance to try to convince me, but lemme tell you, it's gonna be pretty hard 'cause I'm probably not gonna change my mind. 00:19:16.899 --> 00:19:18.519 It is perfectly acceptable. 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.339 That actually does help with psychological safety. 00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:24.044 For you to be that clear about it, what, what would you add there? 00:19:26.124 --> 00:19:26.784 I love that. 00:19:26.784 --> 00:19:35.514 And what I share with principals that I'm working with is coming back to, I don't remember who the author is that identified the four quadrants of decision making 00:19:35.554 --> 00:19:35.974 Mm-hmm. 00:19:36.054 --> 00:19:37.944 principal, but I, or for a leader. 00:19:38.394 --> 00:19:50.364 Um, but what you just described is, is of those quadrants, maybe two and uh, the four different types, and I don't remember which quadrant any of 'em are, but like the first type of decision is I'm just gonna make it. 00:19:50.424 --> 00:19:51.684 I don't want input. 00:19:52.449 --> 00:19:55.149 Too bad, I've made the decision or I will make the decision. 00:19:55.629 --> 00:19:56.649 Those are pretty rare. 00:19:57.489 --> 00:20:01.779 An example might be, uh, a, god forbid, an intruder in the school with a gun. 00:20:02.104 --> 00:20:02.524 Mm-hmm. 00:20:03.009 --> 00:20:07.509 I'm not gonna call a committee together to get input on which way we're gonna go. 00:20:07.734 --> 00:20:08.154 Mm-hmm. 00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:09.609 I'm gonna make that decision. 00:20:10.179 --> 00:20:10.509 Yeah. 00:20:10.629 --> 00:20:11.049 much. 00:20:11.344 --> 00:20:12.519 And I don't want your input. 00:20:12.999 --> 00:20:13.269 Yep. 00:20:13.659 --> 00:20:19.719 A second type of decision is I'm gonna make the decision, um, but I do want your input. 00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:20.979 I may not. 00:20:21.384 --> 00:20:25.104 Like you said, like I may not change, but I want your input in that decision. 00:20:25.854 --> 00:20:29.214 third is I'm gonna make your the decision, but I want your recommendation. 00:20:30.324 --> 00:20:33.804 So that might be going to a committee and it'll be recommended. 00:20:34.014 --> 00:20:39.354 That is a, I didn't give an example for the second one, but that one is like a curriculum materials. 00:20:39.354 --> 00:20:40.554 Typically school boards make 00:20:40.629 --> 00:20:41.049 Mm-hmm. 00:20:41.424 --> 00:20:43.914 those decisions, but they need a recommendation. 00:20:44.784 --> 00:20:45.474 the school, right? 00:20:45.474 --> 00:20:48.174 From, from the, um, a committee of some sort typically. 00:20:48.564 --> 00:20:51.864 And then the fourth kind of decision is we're gonna make that decision together. 00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:52.439 Mm-hmm. 00:20:53.004 --> 00:20:58.674 And counsel principles just like you do, be it clear upfront, don't, don't change. 00:20:58.674 --> 00:20:58.974 Right? 00:21:00.114 --> 00:21:02.514 kind of decision is this from the get go? 00:21:02.754 --> 00:21:07.074 And that's the kind, and this is if this is the kind of decision that we're gonna make it together. 00:21:07.959 --> 00:21:09.309 Then you gotta be that. 00:21:09.309 --> 00:21:12.189 And you can't midway be like, oh, I don't want, like where this decision is 00:21:12.244 --> 00:21:12.534 Yeah. 00:21:12.609 --> 00:21:13.239 gonna change it. 00:21:13.239 --> 00:21:13.509 Right. 00:21:13.809 --> 00:21:13.989 You 00:21:14.169 --> 00:21:14.229 Yeah. 00:21:14.349 --> 00:21:17.349 you gotta stay with it and you know, um. 00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:32.319 seen many a decision that a principal has made, not a principal, that a team made with a principal that the principal came to me and said, you know, I don't really know if this is the right decision, but I think this will work out in, in the long 00:21:32.464 --> 00:21:32.884 Mm-hmm. 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:43.569 And kind of going back to your earlier story of, you know, making a decision or, um, following through on a decision from district office, I read once that, you know. 00:21:44.324 --> 00:21:53.474 you work to implement a decision that you disagree with, the sooner it will become clear that it was the wrong decision. 00:21:53.794 --> 00:21:54.214 Mm-hmm. 00:21:55.334 --> 00:22:09.734 So if there's a decision that you don't like, harder to implement it, because if you work against it, we'll never know if the reason why that decision failed was because it was the wrong decision or because we had people working against it. 00:22:10.269 --> 00:22:10.629 Yeah. 00:22:11.379 --> 00:22:11.709 Yep. 00:22:11.714 --> 00:22:13.544 work, work to implement that decision. 00:22:14.244 --> 00:22:15.984 Especially when you disagree with it, 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:24.009 Yeah, because when, when you disagree with it, you'll find every possible flaw along the way and. 00:22:24.354 --> 00:22:26.694 Put those flags up saying, yep, this is wrong. 00:22:26.694 --> 00:22:27.864 I was right, this is wrong. 00:22:27.864 --> 00:22:28.254 I was right. 00:22:28.254 --> 00:22:28.944 This is wrong. 00:22:29.454 --> 00:22:34.554 And, and it may never actually get the legs it needs to actually succeed. 00:22:34.704 --> 00:22:37.676 And yeah, I, I think that's important. 00:22:39.430 --> 00:22:46.540 we've spent the bulk of our time talking about the, the being part and very little about the doing part. 00:22:46.870 --> 00:22:49.150 And the reason is, is because. 00:22:50.125 --> 00:23:03.745 It's so important to know that if you're not being genuine and you're, and you're not, you don't really believe in the things that you're talking about and stuff, then they come across that way very easily. 00:23:04.165 --> 00:23:15.655 But I, I wonder if you might share one non-verbal, verbal and one like actual thing you can do, assuming that your being is aligned. 00:23:16.005 --> 00:23:16.425 Mm-hmm. 00:23:16.510 --> 00:23:25.450 what's one non-verbal and one actual verbal thing that you can do as a teacher team leader, uh, to, to move your team forward? 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.020 What would be, you know, you got a lot in there, so we're not gonna get to all of 'em. 00:23:29.020 --> 00:23:32.380 So go buy the book, the Teacher Team leader handbook and check it out. 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:34.660 But we'll give you a little, a little taste here. 00:23:34.690 --> 00:23:36.100 The first one's free, as they say. 00:23:36.385 --> 00:23:37.045 A taste, a 00:23:37.330 --> 00:23:37.720 Yeah. 00:23:37.765 --> 00:23:43.315 There's, there's actually 40 actions, four zero that I go into detail with on, on those. 00:23:43.315 --> 00:23:50.845 So the, the first one I would say that is, is, um, comes from the nonverbal communication world. 00:23:51.850 --> 00:23:57.010 intelligence, communication, science where, so let me just preface a little bit. 00:23:57.760 --> 00:24:07.090 Most of your listeners, I'm pretty sure are familiar with the idea that goes back to mehrabian's research that like 93% of communication is non-verbal 00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:07.540 Mm-hmm. 00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:15.220 there's these numbers that are pulled out of thinner, which just as an aside, a little asterisk and down on the side, that's actually misrepresentation of the data. 00:24:15.490 --> 00:24:18.820 There is act, it actually has to do with likability, not with. 00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:20.460 Mm-hmm. 00:24:21.295 --> 00:24:26.515 Setting that aside, I think we can all agree that non-verbal skills are pretty darn important, 00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:27.180 Mm-hmm. 00:24:27.295 --> 00:24:29.575 not as much what you say as how you say it. 00:24:30.010 --> 00:24:30.300 Yeah. 00:24:30.445 --> 00:24:39.865 So in the field of human behaviors, of human patterns, non-verbal communication patterns, excuse me. 00:24:41.835 --> 00:24:43.030 We will just edit that out. 00:24:45.505 --> 00:24:45.955 Excuse me. 00:24:46.615 --> 00:24:56.635 In the, in the world of nonverbal communication patterns, the single most impactful nonverbal pattern is the pause 00:24:59.215 --> 00:24:59.995 out of about 50. 00:24:59.995 --> 00:25:09.355 There's about 50 patterns, and it is the single most impactful, it has influence on respiration, on heart rate, blood pressure. 00:25:10.735 --> 00:25:15.355 The release of endorphins and adrenaline and the blood spring blood bloodstream. 00:25:17.125 --> 00:25:18.625 It's just really remarkable. 00:25:18.745 --> 00:25:21.505 The pause, simply taking a breath. 00:25:25.345 --> 00:25:36.835 Let's think about that for a second, and you can combine that with some other non-verbal moves like breaking eye contact with freezing a gesture that's literally holding your hand some way and just freezing it. 00:25:36.895 --> 00:25:45.085 It coupled with a, a deep breath, an in breath that's, that can be heard, which then also facilitates other people taking a breath. 00:25:45.415 --> 00:25:47.185 It can be conscious, it can be unconscious. 00:25:47.395 --> 00:25:52.765 There's a number of ways to create that pause to create that space, just to 00:25:54.835 --> 00:25:59.335 allow prefrontal cortex to catch up with the amygdala, 00:25:59.520 --> 00:25:59.940 Mm-hmm. 00:26:00.235 --> 00:26:06.655 The front thinking part of the brain as opposed to the back, so-called reptilian part of the brain. 00:26:07.105 --> 00:26:18.385 so I, I, I like that one because it's something that is actually probably wise to do and you don't necessarily have to be aligned to do that. 00:26:18.475 --> 00:26:18.805 Right? 00:26:18.805 --> 00:26:23.845 So, so if you just pause like 99% of the time. 00:26:24.325 --> 00:26:27.955 Taking a breath is the right thing to do, not the wrong thing to do. 00:26:28.435 --> 00:26:38.425 Every once in a while you need to like make a decision faster, but most of us are not in those kind of situations, uh, ever in our life, let alone when we're leading a team meeting. 00:26:39.085 --> 00:26:46.375 So we are probably okay to take a pause most of the time and just slow it down for a minute and let things go. 00:26:46.465 --> 00:26:47.125 I like that. 00:26:47.545 --> 00:26:48.445 yeah, yeah. 00:26:48.475 --> 00:26:49.135 It's brilliant. 00:26:49.135 --> 00:26:50.095 It's like magic, like 00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:50.600 Mm-hmm. 00:26:50.635 --> 00:26:54.055 it seems, well, as I said, like the science backs it up. 00:26:54.115 --> 00:26:59.845 The single most powerful pattern that we have as human beings is the pause. 00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:05.260 It literally affects respiration, heart rate, blood pressure, 00:27:05.535 --> 00:27:05.955 Mm-hmm. 00:27:06.760 --> 00:27:07.060 Yeah. 00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:07.900 Very good. 00:27:08.230 --> 00:27:16.180 Alright, so now give one that is not a non-verbal, but a, uh, a physical action or a, a thing to say or, or some other action. 00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:17.020 Yeah. 00:27:18.070 --> 00:27:19.420 uh, let's do this one. 00:27:19.420 --> 00:27:22.330 So this is one that also is just like magic. 00:27:22.330 --> 00:27:32.140 It's actually one that I kind of refer to as, as, as a trio that I call the Three Magic Moves because they really are literally like magic uh, it's called Third Point. 00:27:32.350 --> 00:27:41.740 It come, comes from a gentleman named Michael Grinder, and he, uh, what he references is like a first point in any conversation as yourself. 00:27:42.490 --> 00:27:44.380 The second point is other people. 00:27:45.370 --> 00:27:51.160 A third point is a, a tangible, non-living something or other. 00:27:52.390 --> 00:27:54.940 So in a meeting that might be an agenda. 00:27:56.575 --> 00:28:01.795 So the importance of having a posted agenda that we can all look at as a third point. 00:28:01.945 --> 00:28:04.345 It might be data in a meeting with. 00:28:04.690 --> 00:28:12.550 A student who you're having challenging conversation with, it might be something that's written down on a sheet of paper, on a table in front of us that we can look at. 00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:24.910 So the third point, it's really literally magic because it shifts our energy away from potentially having conflict between the two of us as people as effective personal relation, uh, conflict. 00:28:25.210 --> 00:28:27.370 Now we can have conflict about this thing. 00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:39.580 Now an agenda clearly wouldn't be necessarily conflict, but, but an agenda gives us a third point to be able to like, create some synergy and some, uh, energy in the same direction where we're all looking at that third point. 00:28:40.300 --> 00:28:43.150 in terms of data or any, any time there's conflict. 00:28:43.870 --> 00:28:46.480 Get out a third point at some point, get out some chart paper. 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:54.040 Hey, if you're feeling the tension's starting to rise, hey, let's capture some of these thoughts on this whiteboard or this chart paper so we can make sure that we have what we're saying. 00:28:54.040 --> 00:28:55.540 Capture, does this capture our thinking? 00:28:55.570 --> 00:28:55.780 Right? 00:28:56.110 --> 00:29:05.860 And, and now the conflict is here on that third point, which is so powerful because now we can engage in cognitive conflict, which is necessary. 00:29:06.100 --> 00:29:11.500 If we wanna maximize our work, we gotta get ourselves pushing each other. 00:29:12.190 --> 00:29:17.230 heard the saying that if there's three of us in the room and we all agree, two of us are unnecessary, 00:29:18.800 --> 00:29:19.640 Absolutely. 00:29:20.090 --> 00:29:20.420 Yeah. 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:22.450 so let's access that expertise. 00:29:22.450 --> 00:29:29.260 And third Point is a really powerful move to be able to get everybody's voices in the room, uh, a safe manner. 00:29:29.810 --> 00:29:30.170 Yeah. 00:29:30.620 --> 00:29:36.950 Well, and, and so I'll add one that I just love and that I use in all of my coaching sessions, 00:29:36.955 --> 00:29:37.305 Uhhuh. 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:40.520 this one is like the same kind of magic. 00:29:40.915 --> 00:29:44.785 And before I say it, I'll say, here's why I use it. 00:29:45.145 --> 00:29:58.345 Number one, it reaffirms to me what I did that brought value to the, to the conversation, and it reaffirms to the person who's answering it, what value they derived from the conversation. 00:29:58.645 --> 00:30:08.905 So I typically use this in coaching situations, but it works in any kind of other meeting because if you had a meeting, you want there to be some value added to it. 00:30:08.970 --> 00:30:09.190 Uh 00:30:09.190 --> 00:30:11.500 Right, that it was meaningful and worthwhile. 00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:13.060 So this is the question. 00:30:13.090 --> 00:30:15.160 What was most valuable to you today? 00:30:15.580 --> 00:30:20.320 And it's from the, uh, Michael Bunge Stiers, uh, the Coaching Habit book. 00:30:20.860 --> 00:30:37.900 And I asked that at the end of, of every regular meeting that I have, any a coaching meeting, just a catch up with somebody that is so powerful because it reminds somebody, why was I here and why do I want to remember this in a positive way? 00:30:38.215 --> 00:30:46.015 And, and that one, like finish a team, your next team meeting with that question and, and you'll get some great responses. 00:30:46.255 --> 00:30:51.295 And what I, what I love is when people say things that have nothing to do with anything we were talking about, 00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:51.700 Oh 00:30:51.775 --> 00:31:04.315 it's like, oh, okay, so the value you got from this was not that like I did X, Y, or Z, or we helped these kids or these teachers, or whatever the value was. 00:31:04.435 --> 00:31:06.565 This other thing that I didn't even see coming. 00:31:06.925 --> 00:31:15.115 That's when it's really cool because that just gives you another layer of connection and relation to that person, which is, which is fantastic. 00:31:15.535 --> 00:31:16.015 So 00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:16.240 Yeah. 00:31:16.345 --> 00:31:21.205 the, the last question that I ask, uh, in the podcast is a little different. 00:31:21.385 --> 00:31:29.635 What is one thing that a principal can do or a teacher team leader can do this week to be a Transformative leader like you? 00:31:29.635 --> 00:31:30.025 Chad. 00:31:30.980 --> 00:31:31.100 Hmm. 00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:44.400 Yeah, there's, there's so many things, but I think given the, the tenor of this conversation where we've gone is to maybe take a few minutes. 00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:56.830 And sit down in your favorite, most comfortable chair and think about your intentions as a person and as a leader. 00:31:57.550 --> 00:32:05.830 And maybe jot some thoughts down, like, what, what are your intentions, uh, which is different than a hope, right? 00:32:06.310 --> 00:32:08.350 A hope is kind cast into the universe. 00:32:09.100 --> 00:32:09.520 Mm-hmm. 00:32:10.090 --> 00:32:12.190 is cast into the universe, and then. 00:32:12.835 --> 00:32:14.995 We make effort to make it happen. 00:32:15.535 --> 00:32:15.655 Mm-hmm. 00:32:16.015 --> 00:32:30.690 And so I think that might be, um, in line with our conversation today to think about what are, what are your intentions a human and as a leader and how you can then align your actions to better meet those intentions. 00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:43.000 Yeah, and you can do that in five to 10 minutes just sitting down, put your phone away, put your book away, like be distraction free and just think, what are my intentions? 00:32:43.300 --> 00:32:43.930 Um, so I. 00:32:43.990 --> 00:32:44.710 in a drive 00:32:45.145 --> 00:32:46.105 Yeah, I, 00:32:46.420 --> 00:32:47.170 to the grocery store 00:32:47.185 --> 00:32:47.545 yep, 00:32:47.590 --> 00:32:48.040 right? 00:32:48.040 --> 00:32:48.610 Or, yeah. 00:32:48.625 --> 00:32:49.135 Yep. 00:32:49.195 --> 00:32:50.395 So I actually did this chat. 00:32:50.395 --> 00:32:57.025 I'm glad you brought this up because I actually did this, uh, a few months ago and I was like, what do I really want? 00:32:57.625 --> 00:33:01.825 Like when I meet with somebody, what's, what's my real purpose here? 00:33:01.885 --> 00:33:08.215 Because, you know, as a consultant I'm like selling, um, I'm trying to get people on my podcast. 00:33:08.215 --> 00:33:13.825 Like there's all these things where I'm trying to get things from people and it's so easy for things to be transactional. 00:33:14.545 --> 00:33:17.620 I. And so, uh, I did this and I was like, you know what? 00:33:17.950 --> 00:33:23.350 I want to think long-term and I want to do long-term things. 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:34.810 And so one of the intentions that came out is that when I meet with somebody, I want it to be a, the first time I meet with them, I want the clock to start ticking. 00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:39.520 That we are going to be in this relationship for at least the next 10 years. 00:33:40.090 --> 00:33:43.330 And, and I've started saying that on calls with people. 00:33:43.570 --> 00:33:57.970 Especially people I first meet and I say, look, I don't know where this is gonna go, but I anticipate that we're going to be connected for the next 10 years and, and I have a note taking system that I use where I put people's names in and the dates that we met and that kind of stuff. 00:33:58.300 --> 00:34:07.750 And so I know when we started and so I can go look, look up the person that I met with and say, oh, you know what we met on this day. 00:34:08.020 --> 00:34:10.090 Uh, and this was our first. 00:34:10.675 --> 00:34:18.235 Our first meeting, and so like you and I, our first meeting was uh, June 27th, 2021. 00:34:18.355 --> 00:34:20.725 That is nearly five years ago. 00:34:21.085 --> 00:34:21.775 And, 00:34:21.910 --> 00:34:22.030 Uh 00:34:22.105 --> 00:34:24.415 or sorry, four years ago, nearly four years ago. 00:34:24.655 --> 00:34:29.935 We are almost halfway through our expected 10 year relationship. 00:34:30.505 --> 00:34:32.425 Um, so that's pretty cool. 00:34:33.505 --> 00:34:34.465 I hope it goes longer. 00:34:34.765 --> 00:34:35.605 I hope so too. 00:34:35.635 --> 00:34:35.785 I mean. 00:34:35.810 --> 00:34:36.570 Is it longer enough, 00:34:36.790 --> 00:34:39.400 Yeah, that's, that's really what it's getting to, right? 00:34:39.700 --> 00:34:41.200 At least 10 years. 00:34:41.260 --> 00:34:55.210 So like if, if we don't, if we don't do business together or we don't do whatever or something, quote unquote big doesn't happen, that's okay because we still have time, you know? 00:34:55.510 --> 00:34:56.980 And so it doesn't end. 00:34:57.010 --> 00:35:04.240 And, and by having that as my intention, then it takes a lot of pressure off and I don't feel like I have to. 00:35:04.870 --> 00:35:07.060 Get something out of a, out of a thing. 00:35:07.420 --> 00:35:23.740 And for me personally, that has been Transformative in a big way because I, I don't feel the pressure anymore, and I don't feel like it has to be a certain thing, and it just takes off so much stress, which is a powerful, powerful thing. 00:35:24.150 --> 00:35:25.435 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:35:25.645 --> 00:35:26.245 I love that. 00:35:26.635 --> 00:35:29.575 I also love the long-term nature of it. 00:35:29.890 --> 00:35:30.220 Yeah. 00:35:31.195 --> 00:35:37.675 Like, like this is, this is valuing others as more than, like you said, transactional. 00:35:37.675 --> 00:35:40.015 It's, it's as human beings 00:35:40.625 --> 00:35:41.045 Mm-hmm. 00:35:41.665 --> 00:35:43.090 looking, looking to the long run. 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:50.740 Yeah, so, so with this perspective, when you emailed me and said, Hey, can I come on the podcast again? 00:35:51.010 --> 00:35:52.000 I was like, you know what? 00:35:52.510 --> 00:35:55.750 He's someone that I want to be in that 10 year relationship with, 00:35:55.750 --> 00:35:55.830 Hmm. 00:35:56.050 --> 00:35:56.530 and. 00:35:57.025 --> 00:36:02.425 If I have an opportunity to serve him by having him come on the podcast, then that's great. 00:36:02.455 --> 00:36:07.885 He can serve me by being a guest on the podcast, and I know we're gonna have a good conversation. 00:36:08.185 --> 00:36:14.935 And it's not like I, I need something from you in order for that to work. 00:36:15.175 --> 00:36:21.895 But because I have this long-term thing of, you know, I wanna, I want to be there for my friends. 00:36:21.925 --> 00:36:23.005 I want to support them. 00:36:23.005 --> 00:36:26.155 I want to help spread the word about the good things that they're doing. 00:36:26.485 --> 00:36:28.435 And this has been a great conversation today. 00:36:28.435 --> 00:36:39.865 It's worthwhile to invest in that time, even though sometimes like you don't want to do it, you know, and you're like, ah, you know, it's late in the day. 00:36:40.195 --> 00:36:48.925 I'd rather go lay out in the hammock 'cause it's beautiful outside, but let's, let's do this thing and continue developing and deepening this relationship. 00:36:49.195 --> 00:36:51.475 It is worth it to take that long-term view. 00:36:51.505 --> 00:36:51.955 And so. 00:36:52.405 --> 00:37:00.175 I would invite people to, to take the time to think about your intentions like Chad suggested, and, and see how you can align your actions to it. 00:37:00.175 --> 00:37:03.175 That's, that's a really powerful thing to do this week. 00:37:03.175 --> 00:37:04.135 So thank you, Chad. 00:37:04.405 --> 00:37:11.635 Um, there's a link to his book, a link to his website, everything in the show notes at Transformative principle.org. 00:37:11.845 --> 00:37:12.865 So go check it out. 00:37:12.865 --> 00:37:15.685 And Chad, thanks again for being part of Transformative Principal Today. 00:37:16.060 --> 00:37:16.900 Oh my pleasure. 00:37:16.900 --> 00:37:17.765 Thank you so very much.