Matt Abrahams: Authenticity is a key ingredient in successful
communication, but what is authenticity and how do we find it?
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to this Rethinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
We're opening up our vault and resharing a really insightful conversation I had
with fellow GSB lecturer Graham Weaver.
Graham suggests that effective leadership and communication
excellence are impossible without first mastering self-awareness
in overcoming personal barriers.
Take a listen to more of his ideas in this enlightening discussion.
Today I look forward to speaking with Graham Weaver.
Graham is a lecturer in management at the GSB as well as a GSB alum.
He teaches managing growing enterprises and managerial skills.
Graham is a very popular teacher and has been invited multiple times to present
in the graduation last lecture series.
Graham, thanks for being here.
Graham Weaver: Thanks so much for having me, Matt.
Matt Abrahams: I look forward to the conversation.
Are you ready to get started?
Graham Weaver: Let's do this.
Matt Abrahams: Alright.
You teach managing growing enterprises, what are two takeaways from your class
that would help our listeners and their companies as they seek to grow and scale?
Graham Weaver: So number one would be the power of really direct communication.
So this sounds so cliché that I even hate to say it, but people just waste time
and energy and money by being indirect.
They think that by, uh, being indirect they're being kind, but all
they're doing is creating confusion.
So, I'll give you an example for us at Alpine, you know, I had
I really struggled with this.
I'm very conflict averse.
I don't like, you know, saying something that's gonna upset someone.
So for a lot of times I would dance around things and, and it led us
to do some bad deals because I just was kinda like, what do you think?
Are you sure you think this is a good deal?
You know, kinda like that, when what I was really saying is, I hate this deal.
I just couldn't be that direct and literally, I am that direct now.
And that cost us, you know, millions of dollars in the early years where I
just wasn't comfortable saying my truth.
And so in this class, we just do this over and over again, where we get students
in the habit of saying your truth.
You can never go wrong when you're saying what is true.
And then we talk about how to do that in a way where people can
feel safe and, and valued, but you still got to lead with that truth.
So that's probably the biggest.
The second one is gonna be completely different.
And so what, what I started teaching this class for a number of years, I would teach
this class on entrepreneurship, and then I realized that people would learn all these
tools about entrepreneurship, but no one would actually go become an entrepreneur,
even though that's their vision.
That's what they wrote on their essay, that's what they wanted to do.
So I realized there's another part of this class, which is, hey, what
is gonna stand in the way of you actually going and pursuing your dream?
And so I added this entire component to the class, which is two things.
First is, let's spend time and energy with students on really getting them
to understand what their dream is.
What would they do if they knew they wouldn't fail?
What are, what are their superpowers?
What is the thing that is easy for them that's hard for other people.
Or that feels like play for them, that's work for others or you
know, like we spend a lot of time helping them really understand it.
And a lot of times it's, it's not the, it's not the standard, you
know, thing that is pitched here.
Like the, it's not the consulting job.
It's something very, very different.
So getting 'em really clear on that, and then this is really critical
is, is they get flooded then with all these limiting beliefs.
Not me, not now, I don't have enough experience, I might
fail, how do I raise money?
How do I pay off my loans?
I can't do this.
My roommate's brother tried this and failed.
All these things flood in almost immediately.
And we actually take, we have a whole class where we
take those limiting beliefs.
We put 'em down, we look at them in the cold light of day,
and we start dealing with them.
Because if you, we gotta name 'em because limiting beliefs is really fear and
it, it has more power when it's just in the recesses of your subconscious mind.
So we get it down, we look at it and we try to overcome it.
So those are two things that, very different, direct communication and
then, you know, figuring out your limiting beliefs and overcoming
those that, that might help people.
Matt Abrahams: I find it really interesting that in a class about
enterprises, what you're really talking about are interpersonal
skills and intrapersonal information.
I think that for everybody to think for a moment, what would you do
if failure wasn't limiting you?
I think that's a wonderful way to get people to reframe what they're doing.
And I love that you are taking time to have people call up those limiting
beliefs because you can't address things you're not consciously aware of.
Graham Weaver: So I'm, I'm 51 now and I've been in private equity 29 years.
I've gone, you know, I went to Stanford at, I teach here.
And the longer that life goes on for me, the more I realize that most of
this game we're playing is really an internal game, first and foremost.
And it presents itself as this external game where, you know, we
have to do all these things and pay off debt and all this, but it really
starts with being an internal game.
And, and the more you can master that first, you know, the, the more
your success you're gonna have.
And almost no matter what you do externally, at some point you're gonna
have to master that internal game.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
And I think I, I see that in the work I do.
You know, we, a lot of what we do is focus on how you message things externally,
but it really starts with what's going on in your own head, in your own mind.
You recently delivered a GSB Last Lecture on living an asymmetrical
life, and congrats, by the way.
It's quite an honor to speak at a Last Lecture.
What do you mean by an asymmetrical life and how can we achieve that?
Graham Weaver: Well, I use the analogy of investing after being a, a professional
investor for 29 years, you end up with these wildly asymmetric outcomes.
So you, you don't end up with like a whole bunch of, you know, two or three X deals.
You end up with some okay ones and then some just gargantuan home runs.
If you look at Warren Buffet for example, I think through 1988, he had
half of his public market gains that, in his whole history, were from two
stocks, GEICO and Washington Post.
So you end up with these wildly asymmetric outcomes, which you can explain when you
say, okay, you got this criteria right.
You had the right market, the right management team, a big enough TAM,
high returns on invested capital.
You figured out a way to buy companies.
You have a playbook, you know, and each time you stack another one of
those, you're, you're creating like logarithmic type outcomes, not linear.
And the more you stack on, the more logarithmic it becomes.
So then I started looking at my own life and, and kind of looking at
it through that lens of what could create asymmetric outcomes in life.
And I came up with four things.
So the first one is do hard things.
And that, that, the reason that's on there is that the thing that is
keeping you where you are, from your next plateau, is something that you
either don't wanna do or you fear.
So that's why you're stuck where you are right now.
It's one of those two things.
Maybe both.
Probably both.
And if you go after that thing, generally speaking, your life
is gonna get worse first.
So if your thing, for example, is that you need to end a
relationship that's not going well.
You know, if you just woke up tomorrow and stayed in the
relationship everything's fine.
But if, but five years from now, it's gonna be worse.
But if you wake up tomorrow instead and do the hard thing, have
the hard conversation, have the breakup, you're gonna be lonely.
You're gonna have to, you know, have that difficulty, but then you're gonna
emerge and get to that next plateau.
So that applies to everything.
And I had this quote that I, I like to say, which is, everything you want in this
life is on the other side of worse first.
And the second one is, so, number one is do hard things.
Number two is do your thing.
And so you're not gonna be amazing at this life, trying to live someone else's life.
And when you find that thing that you are really excited about,
you just show up differently.
I worked at a, at a job, you know, I took the safe job when I graduated from school.
I just felt a part of me die.
And if you'd asked me at the time when I was in that job, what
percent of your potential are you unleashing right now, Graham?
I probably would've said like, oh, 60, 70%.
Now that I'm actually doing the thing I wanna be doing, I look back
and I'd say, no, it's more like 4%.
And so when you're doing something you're excited about, that's your thing.
You're just gonna show up differently.
And importantly, you're gonna stay with it for a lot longer, which
is really the key, which is point three, which is do it for decades.
Do your thing for a long time, like the, you're, if you are getting a
little, even a little bit better, we have CEOs who have been running
their company for 15 years and they're better in year 15 than they were in
14, better in 14 than they were in 13.
And, you know, 15 years in when you're improving, you could be the best in
the world at something, but you have, but it goes doing hard things, doing
your thing, and then you will be more likely to do it for, for decades.
And the fourth one, which kind of sits on top of everything, is write your story.
So, what most people do, if you ask them to write, uh, a book about their life,
they would look back and they would kind of start talking about these events,
almost like the, the events happened to them, and then this happened, and
then this happened and this happened.
We have managers, by the way, who do this.
Oh yeah.
How'd your quarter go?
Well, this happened and then this happened and this happened.
It's like, well, what if you just did it the other way around?
What if you write the story first that you want to have happen?
Why don't you just do that?
Like, just starting today from wherever you are, write your story about what
you want the story to be for the next 5, 10, 15, 20, or your life.
You know, write that story and then make that story happen.
And the magical thing happens is the more clear you can get on that story,
the more likely it's gonna be to happen.
So those are the four things that I, I feel like if you stack those
on top of each other, you can have, you know, basically anything
that you want in this life.
Matt Abrahams: I love that it's a playbook, and I love that it's all about
initiative and willing to go through the hard stuff to get to the good stuff.
And plotting a course in advance of actually doing it to sort of focus
you, but also set expectations.
And in what you said, I heard a lot of just get to it.
Don't, don't waste time.
And, and I love this idea of an asymmetrical life, and I hope everybody
listening thinks about those four steps and considers, you know, addressing them.
Maybe not in that order.
Maybe, maybe not right away, but put yourself on a path to do that.
Graham Weaver: Any one of those steps will improve your life dramatically.
Any of those four.
If you just do hard things, if you just do your thing, if you just write
your story, any one of those will make a dramatic difference in your life.
But if you run the table on all four, that's what I'm saying, you can
unlock just about anything you want.
Matt Abrahams: I, I love your passion.
I love your ideas, and, and I see that in your blogs.
I enjoy reading your blogs.
It's a lot of fun.
You're a very engaging writer, and I, I learn a lot from them, as I'm
learning from our conversation.
I have to say, I was struck by one of your blogs that was all about you
attending a Taylor Swift concert, and I'm really curious to have you
share with our audience the lessons you learned while you were grooving
and shaking it off with Taylor Swift.
Graham Weaver: That's my favorite song actually.
Shake It Off by, by Taylor Swift.
So in 2018, Taylor Swift was snubbed for the Grammys.
You know, she wasn't nominated and there's this, this video of her where she is
on the phone with her agent and she is just crest falling and like you can just
watch all the energy drain from her face.
And then right after that she goes through this really tough public,
uh, disaster with Kanye West and Kim Kardashian about, you know, can she
use lyrics or can they use her lyrics on the song and did she approve it?
And, and they're, and the, the number one trending hashtag on Twitter,
number one, was Taylor Swift is over.
Can you imagine being her at that point?
You're, you're like in your twenties and the number one trending hashtag
in the world is your demise.
That's how much people are, have this venom.
And so what does she do?
Okay.
She, you know, what would most people do?
They'd probably go, you know, they'd probably have this thing, I'm a victim.
I have, you know, I'm gonna blame, you know, Kanye West
and, you know, this, woe is me.
And, and she probably had moments where she felt some of that.
I'm sure she did.
But instead she, she said, you know what?
I just need to make a better record.
That's what she said.
She says that on film.
I, I, I guess I need to make a better record.
And so between 2018 and 2022, um, she made, she put out more
songs than she ever did in her whole life, on the back of that.
And I'm, I guarantee you, there were days when she just had the covers over her.
Didn't wanna get outta bed, but she put her helmet on, goes to work, and
just put one foot in front of the other and did it again and again and again.
And then she won more awards for the work she did in that time period than
any other time she's had in her life.
And I think, you know, people don't see that.
They just see her in her concert and it's a billion dollar concert, and here's
all these lights, and wow, what a great dancer and she's got so much music.
But my all time favorite quote, I write quotes on my board every day in class.
I'm a huge collector of quotes.
I post them almost every day on social media.
My all time favorite quote, Michelangelo, you know, uh, sculpted the David, paints
the Sistine Chapel and he says, if people knew how hard I worked to gain my
mastery, it wouldn't seem so wonderful.
And I think people see Taylor Swift's mastery, but they don't see
all the stuff that went into it.
So I just, anyway, I'm inspired by everything she does, but I
just thought that one story of her is really just a story of grit.
It's not about talent or her music or anything, it's just about
like her just, and her resolve.
Anyway, she's one of my heroes.
Matt Abrahams: I think that notion, uh, well, one, I think it's great that, that
you, you take a lesson beyond just the fun and enjoyment of her music, but the,
the tenacity and the belief in yourself and just hunkering down in doing it, I
think there's a lesson for all of us.
And the point about mastery is really fascinating.
We've, we had a whole episode about mastery and, and really what goes into
it, and, and it's a lot of work and it's a lot of things that people don't see.
You write a lot about your desire to continue growing and improving.
What's one thing that you're working on right now?
Graham Weaver: So, yeah, great question.
So, uh, I had this really interesting conversation with my a friend of mine a
couple years ago, and we were just kind of having banter and, and she asked me,
she said, you know, if you, if you could have one superpower, what would that be?
And so I was kinda like, oh, that'd be kind of cool to read someone's
mind or, you know, whatever.
And I was playing, and then, and then all of a sudden it got a little bit
deeper and I said, well, what is actually a superpower I could really develop.
And what I came up with, the word I came up with was, you know, enlightenment.
You know, what if, what if I were just more enlightened, you know?
'Cause what I started to realize, and, and I think this is true for
everybody is, you know, your whole life is unfolding as, externally, and
there's events and there's situations.
And then that life goes through a filter, which is your mind.
And then, and then what you're processing is your interpretation of those events.
So this, this thing happened.
Is this good?
Is this bad?
Is this consistent with what I thought was gonna happen?
Am I upset about this?
You know, do I feel good about this?
You know, what, what's the story I have about how my life is supposed to go?
What's the story I have about what's, you know, what's, what's
gonna make me happy or successful?
Or what's the story I have about other people think about me?
And like, I just started to realize like all of that story I'm creating myself.
And that filter is like pretty much a hundred percent in my control.
And so, a lot more of my life is in my control than I realize.
So I started going on this journey, which has been amazing.
So I've been studying a lot of Buddhism.
I've been going on meditation retreats, doing journaling and coaching.
I've been meditating a lot more than I ever did.
And it's, it is, it is the best journey, I think probably, maybe the most
important journey that anyone could go on.
So I'm, I'm not, I'm not there.
I'm not a enlightened individual.
I don't know if I ever will be, but I definitely am at least getting closer than
maybe I was before I started this journey.
Matt Abrahams: I appreciate you sharing that because that, that for many people,
that's a very personal quest and, and the tools that you're using are tools
that, that I personally do a lot of meditating and, and reflecting and,
and I find there is a lot of value.
And, and I think in a world that we live in and a place that we live in, we can get
very distracted by lots of shiny objects and ideas, and to really ground ourselves.
I like that.
Graham Weaver: You know, it's kind of like, for me at least, it's kind of
like brushing your teeth, you know?
You can't just brush your teeth for 8 hours on January 1st and then say,
I'm good for the year, you know?
So it's like, it's like almost like I start over every single morning and
have to kind of reprogram and, you know, meditate, take a cold shower,
you know, write in the journal.
Do, do it again, but it, but it does, it has made a, a huge difference.
Matt Abrahams: Before we end, Graham, I'd like to ask you some questions.
The first question I'm gonna make up specifically for you, and then the others
are, are common questions I ask everybody.
You up for that?
Graham Weaver: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: So, number one, uh, you're a leader.
You teach new leaders and work with many.
What differentiates an exceptional leader from just an average leader?
Graham Weaver: I would say ultimately when you get past all
the tactical things, the very, very exceptional leaders give themselves
permission to fully be themselves.
So I'll give you a very simple example in my own life.
So I started, I was asked to teach at Stanford Business School, and so my
first couple of years I went and watched all the amazing professors here and
learned and wrote notes and everything.
And for the first few years I really tried to mimic them.
And you know, Irv Grousbeck was a mentor of mine.
And so I tried to do everything that he did and I, I didn't do very well at all.
And at some point I had this conversation with my executive coach who said, you
know, Graham, you are gonna be a C plus version of Irv Grousbeck, but you can
be an A plus version of Graham Weaver.
And that's enough.
I think it was the, that's enough part that I didn't believe, which is why
I was trying to mimic someone else.
And so I think, you know, if you're in a leadership role,
you're there for a reason.
You know, you are an incredibly special person and you're different
than anyone else, and those differences are what make you amazing.
And giving yourself permission to fully be yourself is going to be where you're
this incredible light and you're gonna do something different than someone has,
you know, someone has never done before.
And so I think it is that permission and it is realizing like that's enough.
Matt Abrahams: That's really powerful, that we just need to be ourselves and
through being ourselves, we can succeed in teaching and leadership and lots of
other areas, but we get in our own way.
Uh, question number two.
Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Graham Weaver: I'll go with um, Irv Grousbeck who teaches here.
So Irv, I think he's been teaching here for 35, 40 years and he was a very
successful businessman before that.
Probably best known for owning the Celtics or being one of the
owners of the Boston Celtics.
Anyway, he was my professor here.
I was a case guest in his class for 12 years, and he was also
the one who got me into teaching.
In terms of his communication, he just models exactly what I would want to teach
others and what I wanna do for myself.
He's super direct, he's clear, he's authentic, he's himself.
And, and then, and then like when you're in his presence, you just feel like you're
the most important person in the world and that you're the only person in the world.
For that period of time when you're with him he just makes you feel that way.
And he's always been the voice of you can, you can do this and I believe in
you, and that, that might sound cliché, but when there's someone like that that
you admire in your early twenties and trying to start a business and it's not
going that well, you know, having someone like that just kind of keep you grounded
and reminding you that you got this, you know, he's, he's just been unbelievable.
So he would be the person I'd pick.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so Irv has got quite the reputation around here, and many
people say, and share exactly what you did, is when you're speaking with him,
you are in that spotlight and feel that it is just you and him in that conversation.
And, and that's a, that, that's a very powerful thing to, to feel like you
have somebody's full attention and that they're really there for you.
Final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Graham Weaver: So the, the first one would be understanding what is your truth?
What is, what is your, what is your truth?
What do you wanna say about this situation?
And getting clear on that.
Giving yourself a little bit of space where you're not reacting,
but you're, you're kind of realizing what is your highest value and what
is the thing you wanna say, and then speak that truth is number one.
Two would be create safety.
You know, people are gonna hear that feedback when they're safe.
And you know, the, the opposite of that would be they're not gonna hear
anything if they feel attacked or they feel belittled or something.
So focus on, you know, Matt, the reason I wanna address this with
you is I really care about our relationship and I wanna see what's
coming for a long period of time.
You know, that, that's what I mean by safety.
And then third is be clear on what you're asking.
So like, we're having a conversation, so what, you know?
What is the specific thing that I am asking of you?
Or what are the next action items?
People forget that and they leave thinking they had this whole conversation.
The other person's like, oh yeah, that was lovely, but they missed the whole point.
So I think those are, those would be the three.
And I, I think, I think clarity is compassionate.
So the more clear, even if it's not what they want to hear, the more direct and
clear you can be, the more compassionate that is for the other person.
Matt Abrahams: I love that idea of clarity leads to compassion.
It's, it's operationalized, uh, compassion in some way.
Uh, as you have alluded to in many of your responses, it's
really about introspection.
First, what's your truth?
What needs to be done?
And, and that is striking and I wanna make sure everybody hears that, that you
are better with others when you are first true to yourself and know what that is.
And then being clear and creating safe space for you to have those conversations.
Graham, this has been fantastic.
I, I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you.
The idea that we have to look within before we, we manage people
externally really makes sense.
I love your energy.
I love that you both meditate and love Taylor Swift and
that you can learn from both.
So thank you for your time and thank you for your insight.
Graham Weaver: Thanks for having me, Matt.
It was a lot of fun.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for a special Rethinks episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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