WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.906 --> 00:00:17.966 jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.476 --> 00:00:19.976 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.976 --> 00:00:22.676 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.338 --> 00:00:37.798 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:00:38.698 --> 00:00:40.168 we got a treat for you today. 00:00:40.258 --> 00:00:42.238 I am your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:42.508 --> 00:00:49.828 You can find me on all the socials at Jethro Jones, and today I am doing something a little bit different. 00:00:49.888 --> 00:00:58.994 A few, about a year and a half ago, my friend Danny Bauer and I decided to write a book called Reject the Premise, and we started it and then it fizzled. 00:00:59.684 --> 00:01:02.834 We're not gonna go into all that, but sometimes that happens. 00:01:02.894 --> 00:01:07.064 So what we decided to do was to resurrect this idea and. 00:01:07.949 --> 00:01:10.619 it as a podcast and then write the book. 00:01:10.619 --> 00:01:12.299 So we're gonna riff on some ideas. 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:14.039 In fact, we've already done it. 00:01:14.099 --> 00:01:18.419 The first episode went out on Danny's podcast, better Leaders, better Schools. 00:01:18.869 --> 00:01:20.309 You can go check it out there. 00:01:20.489 --> 00:01:23.669 But today we're gonna talk about the second group. 00:01:23.909 --> 00:01:27.749 If you look in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org, you'll see a link to his. 00:01:27.979 --> 00:01:28.939 Uh, podcast. 00:01:28.939 --> 00:01:32.659 You can go listen to that and definitely subscribe to it if you haven't. 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:37.969 And then today we're gonna talk about some other topics and we will 00:01:38.174 --> 00:01:38.254 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:01:38.269 --> 00:01:39.799 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: into those here in just a moment. 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:46.039 So, Danny, uh, how'd it feel after doing our first episode on this reject the premise book? 00:01:46.304 --> 00:01:46.574 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:01:46.604 --> 00:01:47.234 Thanks Jethro. 00:01:47.234 --> 00:01:48.104 I think it felt good. 00:01:48.104 --> 00:01:50.144 It was a lot of fun, you know, riffing with you. 00:01:50.564 --> 00:01:55.454 Uh, I titled it do school, different part one, so maybe this is do school, different part two. 00:01:55.544 --> 00:01:56.354 It's up to you. 00:01:56.804 --> 00:01:59.954 Uh, but I, I figured that way we could stay really organized. 00:01:59.984 --> 00:02:03.524 Um, I. Yeah, but the thing is right, you, you, you do work. 00:02:03.524 --> 00:02:08.384 And the time, the time wasn't right and the approach didn't feel necessarily right. 00:02:08.384 --> 00:02:14.744 And uh, kudos to us for wanting to like, give it some space, let it breathe and, and walk away. 00:02:15.104 --> 00:02:25.964 I think a lot of, a lot of leaders make a mistake when they get to that point and they're not feeling right in rhythm or just aligned or with in flow, right? 00:02:26.204 --> 00:02:27.014 And what do they do? 00:02:27.014 --> 00:02:27.914 They work harder. 00:02:28.274 --> 00:02:29.804 And they put in more hours. 00:02:29.894 --> 00:02:30.614 That's stupid. 00:02:30.824 --> 00:02:31.634 Don't do that. 00:02:31.934 --> 00:02:34.424 And so we said we give up, right? 00:02:34.454 --> 00:02:37.304 At least for now and maybe we'll come back. 00:02:37.544 --> 00:02:40.214 Uh, and then we had a chat and now we're here back. 00:02:40.214 --> 00:02:41.084 This feels easy. 00:02:41.624 --> 00:02:43.454 So, you know, there's leadership lessons there. 00:02:43.454 --> 00:02:45.014 This feels easy to us. 00:02:45.164 --> 00:02:51.554 We'll do the riffs and then we'll take our riffs and turn that into a, a book and edit it up, organize it nicely. 00:02:52.124 --> 00:02:53.624 Uh, but yeah, it feels great. 00:02:53.624 --> 00:02:54.734 So thanks for asking. 00:02:55.364 --> 00:03:06.374 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and, and this is, this is really key that I want to reiterate that we could have tried to force it and a lot of times you have to force things. 00:03:06.579 --> 00:03:06.659 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:03:06.854 --> 00:03:09.074 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Other times you need to be in flow. 00:03:09.569 --> 00:03:23.549 And it's okay and smart to figure out when the right thing is to do what, you know, like when I, when I don't want to go to the gym, I need to force it and go to the gym because that's gonna pay dividends later on down the road. 00:03:24.029 --> 00:03:30.299 Us forcing ourselves to write this book, I do not think would've paid dividends and would not have been the right choice. 00:03:30.539 --> 00:03:35.129 So we gave it some space and just said, Hey, we're not gonna do it. 00:03:35.129 --> 00:03:36.269 And that's okay. 00:03:36.704 --> 00:03:36.824 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:03:37.964 --> 00:03:39.974 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: And that's, that's what you gotta decide. 00:03:40.004 --> 00:03:44.534 And there's not like a, a formula where you can say, here's the exact right way to do it. 00:03:44.534 --> 00:03:45.434 Every single time. 00:03:45.704 --> 00:03:52.844 You gotta be able to say this moment, what's the right thing to do for where we're at and what we're trying to do? 00:03:53.144 --> 00:03:56.414 And, and that applies to anything that you're trying to lead. 00:03:56.774 --> 00:04:01.784 And you gotta see where your people are at and what they're capable of and, and all that. 00:04:01.784 --> 00:04:05.444 So, first one that we're gonna get into today. 00:04:05.849 --> 00:04:11.399 Is, uh, this, this idea of if you don't like someone, then move them out. 00:04:11.964 --> 00:04:12.184 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm. 00:04:13.079 --> 00:04:21.659 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: um, we, we recently published a, uh, satirical article about a, about a principal who came into a new school. 00:04:22.139 --> 00:04:26.879 Things weren't going well, so she fire, she wants to fire the custodian. 00:04:28.049 --> 00:04:35.129 I'm bringing this up because, uh, I've seen this playbook so many times and the custodian is the one. 00:04:35.624 --> 00:04:38.174 Who gets the short end of the stick 00:04:38.364 --> 00:04:38.484 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:04:39.434 --> 00:04:41.504 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: uh, 'cause they're an easy target. 00:04:41.864 --> 00:04:44.084 They don't have the same protections that teachers do. 00:04:44.159 --> 00:04:44.519 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right. 00:04:44.924 --> 00:04:52.634 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: a principal who's really struggling in a new situation will go in and get rid of the, get rid of the, the custodian. 00:04:53.444 --> 00:04:55.574 just because she's struggling somewhere else. 00:04:55.604 --> 00:04:56.084 And, 00:04:56.244 --> 00:04:56.364 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:04:56.594 --> 00:04:58.544 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: ah, it's tragic when it happens. 00:04:58.604 --> 00:05:03.104 And in the principles that I've coached, I've seen this happen numerous times. 00:05:03.194 --> 00:05:07.184 Uh, also with the principal that I worked with and with other principals that I've seen. 00:05:07.184 --> 00:05:10.304 And it's just really tragic. 00:05:10.304 --> 00:05:15.164 So the, the premise is if you don't like 'em, get rid of 'em, uh, or move them. 00:05:15.284 --> 00:05:19.334 And that's been been the way that people have, have acted in the past. 00:05:19.694 --> 00:05:20.204 Um. 00:05:21.194 --> 00:05:29.984 That's what we reject and we say find a place for the people to help them achieve their goals and be in the best place possible for them. 00:05:30.404 --> 00:05:31.169 What would you add there? 00:05:32.729 --> 00:05:39.359 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Well first, you know, you're referencing, uh, an article on the Substack, so that's ruckus makers.substack.com if you wanna check that out. 00:05:39.749 --> 00:05:47.489 Um, you know, and it is sad that, that, that people get moved out just because folks don't know how to lead. 00:05:47.909 --> 00:05:49.649 Uh, they don't like whatever. 00:05:49.709 --> 00:05:58.439 Uh, you know, my buddy Gene Park, who leads in elementary school, he and the custodian go to different classrooms and sing Happy Birthday. 00:05:59.459 --> 00:06:00.269 To the kids. 00:06:00.359 --> 00:06:00.689 Right. 00:06:01.229 --> 00:06:05.999 And, uh, you know, the, the satirical article was actually, um, based on real life. 00:06:05.999 --> 00:06:09.989 We won't mention where and when and all that kind of stuff, but that's the thing. 00:06:09.989 --> 00:06:15.239 A satire often has a seed of truth there, which makes it sting that much more. 00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:21.599 And you know, when you have a custodian who's great at developing relationships with kids and that kind of thing. 00:06:21.984 --> 00:06:23.759 What are you doing trying to move them out? 00:06:23.789 --> 00:06:25.739 This makes zero sense, right? 00:06:26.219 --> 00:06:33.179 Uh, and I think in the article we had 'em, you know, getting written up for like talking to kids or just ridiculous stuff. 00:06:33.179 --> 00:06:42.449 But this happens, you know, another satirical article we had, I. Um, also is about the Secretary of Education announcing Russell Ed. 00:06:42.599 --> 00:06:43.019 Right. 00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:48.449 Uh, 'cause we all like to put Ed at the end 'cause it's like, you know, really, really unique and creative. 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:54.479 Um, but with, uh, Russell Ed, there's last principal standing evaluations. 00:06:54.479 --> 00:06:54.869 Right. 00:06:55.259 --> 00:07:01.469 Uh, replacing teacher of the year awards with championship belts and, you know, it's just, it's absolutely outrageous. 00:07:01.469 --> 00:07:01.799 Right. 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.679 Um, but that's the thing. 00:07:04.799 --> 00:07:06.479 There's the Jim Collins idea. 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:08.969 People have in their minds, right? 00:07:08.969 --> 00:07:13.499 They read, I don't know if it was good to great, great to great to greater, great to the best or whatever. 00:07:13.499 --> 00:07:14.939 Like, there's a lot of those books. 00:07:15.419 --> 00:07:21.329 Uh, and, and it is a good idea, you know, do people have a seat on the bus and are they on the right seat? 00:07:21.659 --> 00:07:22.049 Right? 00:07:22.559 --> 00:07:32.729 And I think the knee jerk reaction for play it safe principles is, oh, this person doesn't necessarily believe everything or. 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:39.329 Have the same point of view, and so we gotta, they're, they're not on the right seat and they're not on the right bus. 00:07:39.329 --> 00:07:40.109 We're moving 'em out. 00:07:41.369 --> 00:07:48.929 I think the big idea that we, we wanna share, at least from my perspective, is that, pause for a second, right? 00:07:49.739 --> 00:07:53.339 Uh, try to understand where these people are coming from. 00:07:53.459 --> 00:07:59.819 Obviously, if they're doing bad things, you know, with, with students or they're completely ineffective as a teacher, let's say. 00:08:00.284 --> 00:08:01.124 That's one thing. 00:08:01.664 --> 00:08:11.294 Um, but if they're just questioning and not on board with the vision just yet, slow your role because critics can be cheerleaders and enemies can be evangelists. 00:08:11.474 --> 00:08:14.354 If you approach them with curiosity and empathy. 00:08:14.714 --> 00:08:16.604 Listen to what they have to say. 00:08:16.724 --> 00:08:20.144 They're giving you the roadmap for professional development. 00:08:20.804 --> 00:08:23.624 And if you take them seriously, a few things are gonna happen. 00:08:24.074 --> 00:08:24.674 One. 00:08:25.229 --> 00:08:26.519 They're gonna be shocked. 00:08:26.579 --> 00:08:31.259 They're not gonna believe that, oh my gosh, this principal actually listens to me. 00:08:31.529 --> 00:08:31.919 Right? 00:08:32.219 --> 00:08:35.069 'cause they probably have gone through their career just being shut down. 00:08:35.729 --> 00:08:42.239 Secondly, when you develop training around valid concerns, not all of 'em might be valid, but some will be. 00:08:43.199 --> 00:08:44.879 Uh, and they become a believer. 00:08:45.224 --> 00:08:47.594 Everybody else is gonna fall in line, right? 00:08:47.594 --> 00:08:50.384 You're gonna pick up a, a good percentage of your staff. 00:08:50.714 --> 00:08:53.294 That already wasn't the early adopters. 00:08:53.624 --> 00:09:00.764 So I think those are some big ideas when it comes to, uh, moving people out because slow down, like you just got there. 00:09:01.064 --> 00:09:05.204 Let's really think about what they're saying and see if we could, uh, collaboratively built. 00:09:05.534 --> 00:09:07.964 So we're not saying don't fire or don't move out. 00:09:08.234 --> 00:09:09.999 Just don't do it so fast. 00:09:12.874 --> 00:09:15.629 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Well, and the other part is don't write someone off also, 00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:15.879 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:09:16.259 --> 00:09:18.959 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and so we may not actually take any action. 00:09:19.229 --> 00:09:24.839 But we may write them off in our heads too quickly, and we may say, this person's never gonna get on board. 00:09:25.079 --> 00:09:25.889 They're not gonna do it. 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:26.459 Whatever. 00:09:26.789 --> 00:09:30.719 And, and I, I had a teacher at one of my schools who. 00:09:31.739 --> 00:09:36.809 Who seemed to be against everything that we were doing, and she was constantly saying, this isn't gonna work. 00:09:36.809 --> 00:09:38.009 This isn't gonna work. 00:09:38.099 --> 00:09:49.019 And because I had learned previously that I don't need to convince her and that I don't have to change her, I need to evaluate, is she, is she moving in the same or she facing the same direction? 00:09:49.379 --> 00:09:53.099 Or is she, is she rowing the boat in the opposite direction? 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:54.809 That's what I need to determine. 00:09:54.809 --> 00:09:57.479 She wasn't doing those things, so I let her do her thing. 00:09:57.479 --> 00:09:58.529 I let her ask questions. 00:09:58.529 --> 00:10:01.619 I let her poke holes in, in what we were trying to do. 00:10:02.009 --> 00:10:06.119 And what she actually did was she helped us figure out. 00:10:07.214 --> 00:10:17.264 The problems that we had and helped us identify weaknesses that we didn't understand otherwise, because we were totally bought into the vision she was facing the same way. 00:10:17.264 --> 00:10:22.274 She wasn't antagonistic, but she was just like, you, you gotta prove it to me. 00:10:22.394 --> 00:10:22.614 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:10:22.634 --> 00:10:24.434 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: not, I'm not sold on this yet. 00:10:24.554 --> 00:10:29.684 And so by, by us respecting that, by us understanding that. 00:10:30.134 --> 00:10:38.324 We, we allowed her to be herself and express herself and, and be able to, to do the things she needed to. 00:10:38.654 --> 00:10:43.514 Now, I gotta share this one story because it's one of my favorite stories ever. 00:10:43.814 --> 00:10:47.774 We had a custodian, this school, where the principal tried to get rid of him. 00:10:48.749 --> 00:10:50.489 And he was just terrible with names. 00:10:50.549 --> 00:10:55.319 And the culture in our district was, you need to know everybody's name. 00:10:55.649 --> 00:10:59.249 And for him with 600 kids in the school, it was just too much. 00:10:59.339 --> 00:11:00.809 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: principal or the custodian. 00:11:01.139 --> 00:11:02.009 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: the custodian, 00:11:02.069 --> 00:11:02.099 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Okay. 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:03.779 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: so he was just overwhelmed 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:04.079 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:11:04.619 --> 00:11:10.889 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and it was one of those things where it, looking at his behavior and his personality. 00:11:11.729 --> 00:11:20.249 see why the, the principal wanted to go after him, but what he did every day at lunch was he would talk to every single kid in the lunch line, and he would do two things. 00:11:20.249 --> 00:11:23.969 One, he'd call 'em all Steve, and they would call him Steve. 00:11:24.179 --> 00:11:31.019 Steve wasn't his name, but he called them Steve, and they called him Steve because that was his way of dealing with not knowing kids' names. 00:11:31.319 --> 00:11:34.529 But then what he would do is he would quiz the kids on their lunch numbers. 00:11:35.204 --> 00:11:42.554 And so he'd get them to memorize their lunch numbers, and he'd take their little card from 'em the first couple weeks of school and he'd say, all right, what's your number? 00:11:42.614 --> 00:11:43.814 And then they'd work through it. 00:11:44.204 --> 00:11:55.454 This guy was so supportive and had such a good heart, but because of whatever personality issue or flaws he had, the principal wanted to get rid of him, but he was there every day. 00:11:55.814 --> 00:12:01.454 Building relationships with kids, helping them out, and those are the kinds of things that we need to really be focusing on. 00:12:02.114 --> 00:12:03.974 Uh, yeah, he wasn't perfect. 00:12:04.004 --> 00:12:04.424 Guess what? 00:12:04.424 --> 00:12:05.264 Nobody is. 00:12:05.384 --> 00:12:09.284 And so rather than writing him off, we needed to recognize what he was doing. 00:12:09.284 --> 00:12:09.974 That was great. 00:12:09.974 --> 00:12:11.819 I. And, and bring that back. 00:12:12.269 --> 00:12:23.429 And the problem is we focus too much on personalities or their disposition and we don't do the things that are actually going to help us grow and, and get better as a whole team. 00:12:23.909 --> 00:12:27.299 Now I couldn't actually, I didn't write, I didn't draw anything for this one. 00:12:27.359 --> 00:12:28.679 Did you draw something for this one on? 00:12:28.784 --> 00:12:29.984 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: I couldn't find cards for this one. 00:12:31.094 --> 00:12:31.314 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Oh, 00:12:31.634 --> 00:12:31.904 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah, 00:12:31.984 --> 00:12:32.274 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Well 00:12:32.384 --> 00:12:33.494 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: have 'em for everyone else. 00:12:33.494 --> 00:12:35.054 I went through the whole stack. 00:12:35.894 --> 00:12:36.764 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Oh, how funny. 00:12:37.154 --> 00:12:37.994 Well, there you go. 00:12:38.024 --> 00:12:41.534 Sometimes that happens and, uh, I, that's gonna happen for me for sure. 00:12:41.534 --> 00:12:45.434 Last time I didn't have a card for, for what we had talked about, so. 00:12:46.364 --> 00:12:47.804 Anything else you wanna add to that one? 00:12:48.479 --> 00:12:55.934 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: You know, I think you were talking about kind of like looking at people, uh, through a strength based lens versus, uh, what they lack, you know, and their weaknesses. 00:12:55.934 --> 00:13:04.304 And here's the guy getting kids to memorize, uh, lunch numbers, which I'm sure is helpful getting 'em through the lunch line and all this kind of stuff. 00:13:04.814 --> 00:13:09.494 Um, and maybe he doesn't, uh, know all the kids' names, but I think this is where like. 00:13:10.229 --> 00:13:27.119 You know, in, in, in, uh, industry like education, you gotta question and think about the system and do school different because obviously for a teacher who's with their students 150, let's say five classes of 30 or whatever, you know, every day, they should know their kids' names. 00:13:27.404 --> 00:13:32.894 And I was working with a campus where there was a teacher who didn't know the student's names. 00:13:33.374 --> 00:13:44.864 Now I think that is quite a bit, uh, more challenging for a custodian who only, you know, has passing by type of relationships unless they're super, super intentional and in all 600, like, I don't know. 00:13:44.864 --> 00:13:50.684 I would, I would question that a bit, but my point is he was adding value and it sounds like he was working hard. 00:13:51.014 --> 00:13:51.884 And guess what? 00:13:52.214 --> 00:13:54.824 Something that, uh, a lot of schools struggle with. 00:13:54.914 --> 00:13:56.864 He was a custodian who was. 00:13:57.644 --> 00:13:59.204 Showing up, right? 00:13:59.434 --> 00:13:59.724 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah. 00:13:59.924 --> 00:14:02.504 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Like, I've been to schools, it's, oh, yep. 00:14:02.534 --> 00:14:03.224 They're not here. 00:14:03.284 --> 00:14:06.014 You know, and there's turnover and there's chaos. 00:14:06.014 --> 00:14:08.714 And this, you, you wanna clean campus. 00:14:08.774 --> 00:14:16.004 So because the, the guy's here every day and helping kids know their numbers, uh, but he doesn't know all their names. 00:14:16.004 --> 00:14:16.754 You're gonna get rid of 'em. 00:14:16.814 --> 00:14:18.044 That's stupid, right? 00:14:18.194 --> 00:14:23.114 Today's the day where I tell the ruckus maker listening that you're stupid if you're doing this stuff. 00:14:23.114 --> 00:14:25.814 So I'm, I'm happy to do that and be direct. 00:14:26.609 --> 00:14:26.939 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah. 00:14:26.999 --> 00:14:33.089 How many, how many people listening are like, I had to do something custodial related this week because my custodial wasn't 00:14:33.209 --> 00:14:34.409 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right, right. 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.379 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: people showing up is a, is a huge thing 00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:37.709 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:14:37.739 --> 00:14:38.129 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: sure. 00:14:38.999 --> 00:14:44.459 Um, alright, so that leads us to the next one, uh, which is feedback sandwiches don't work 00:14:44.459 --> 00:14:45.164 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: I have cards. 00:14:45.164 --> 00:14:46.319 I have cards for this one. 00:14:46.634 --> 00:14:47.774 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Excellent. 00:14:48.194 --> 00:14:55.424 Um, uh, and that our, our, our new, our, that's the premise is give feedback, sandwiches. 00:14:55.454 --> 00:15:00.284 And the, the, the new premise that we're suggesting is be inquisitive. 00:15:00.614 --> 00:15:11.384 Uh, you may have something different there, but, uh, but the thing about this one that, that I love is, uh, we don't call a ham sandwich, a bread sandwich. 00:15:11.624 --> 00:15:15.194 And, uh, we, we talk about the meat and. 00:15:15.599 --> 00:15:20.249 The meat on the inside of a feedback sandwich is crap, and so. 00:15:20.819 --> 00:15:25.049 It's, it's a crap sandwich, basically, that's what it should be called, not a feedback sandwich. 00:15:25.049 --> 00:15:35.219 Because what you're trying to do is, is do something fluffy and say, Hey, here's a compliment, here's a criticism, here's a compliment that makes everybody feel like crap, and it just doesn't 00:15:35.534 --> 00:15:35.924 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right. 00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:38.849 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: it's a crap sandwich, not a feedback sandwich. 00:15:39.199 --> 00:15:39.489 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:15:39.629 --> 00:15:45.089 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: anything other than that is manipulative and it's disgusting and it doesn't work. 00:15:45.089 --> 00:15:46.139 And people see right through it. 00:15:47.939 --> 00:15:51.569 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: So you're going to work and, and you're getting dressed and you put on your depends. 00:15:51.569 --> 00:15:59.369 And then you get to work and, and you drop just a big steaming, you know what in your pants, that's what you're doing with a feedback sandwich. 00:15:59.369 --> 00:16:07.529 So today's the day to offend people, I guess, but it's, it, it's research shows that it, that it doesn't work, right. 00:16:07.529 --> 00:16:09.149 Feedback, sandwiches, I don't know. 00:16:09.359 --> 00:16:11.069 Well, I do know why education. 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:17.969 The best thing about educators is that they have a big heart, and the worst thing about educators is sometimes that they have a big heart. 00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:21.809 And so the feedback sandwiches, because you don't wanna hurt people's feelings. 00:16:22.079 --> 00:16:23.879 So if I start nice and get to the truth. 00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:33.989 The way people really have to improve and then end on a nice thing, we tell ourselves a story that it'll all be okay, and that's not true. 00:16:33.989 --> 00:16:40.679 It feels disingenuous and it's childish, and you're ruining trust in that moment. 00:16:40.949 --> 00:16:46.469 So unless you want to ruin trust, don't use a feedback sandwich, right? 00:16:46.709 --> 00:16:48.509 If you want to build trust, be. 00:16:49.394 --> 00:16:51.944 What I, what I would say is, uh, radically candid. 00:16:52.004 --> 00:16:54.104 This comes from a book by Kim Scott. 00:16:54.524 --> 00:17:00.524 Um, we read that in, in the Masterminds we have, and it's Radical Candor's an incredible book. 00:17:00.554 --> 00:17:02.114 She has a grid, right? 00:17:02.504 --> 00:17:07.244 And the two axes are just about, uh, how much you care, right? 00:17:07.304 --> 00:17:08.474 And how direct you are. 00:17:09.044 --> 00:17:15.014 And the sweet spot is being very caring and very direct, you know, uh. 00:17:15.614 --> 00:17:22.874 If you in, you know, I'll just, I'll, I'll recommend to the, the person, uh, listening, you know, check out the graph, Google it. 00:17:22.874 --> 00:17:27.644 Just Kim Scott in Radical Candor and you can see what the other quadrants are. 00:17:27.644 --> 00:17:27.884 Right. 00:17:27.884 --> 00:17:34.694 I'm just, um, highlighting it right now, uh, for sake of time, but, you know, we'll just say, I'll do one more. 00:17:34.694 --> 00:17:34.904 Right. 00:17:34.904 --> 00:17:38.204 If you're very direct, but you lack the empathy and the care. 00:17:38.714 --> 00:17:39.524 You're a jerk. 00:17:39.764 --> 00:17:41.024 And we know people like that. 00:17:41.564 --> 00:17:46.604 And then there's, right, if you, if you are not direct and you don't care, that's another thing. 00:17:46.994 --> 00:17:51.494 And if you have high care, this is I think a dangerous spot for a lot of school leaders. 00:17:51.884 --> 00:17:52.874 High care. 00:17:53.024 --> 00:17:53.984 But you're not direct. 00:17:53.984 --> 00:17:54.884 That's something else. 00:17:54.884 --> 00:17:57.224 So again, do you want trust? 00:17:57.224 --> 00:18:00.644 If you want trust, have high care, high directness. 00:18:02.526 --> 00:18:09.066 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: the other part about that is when, when you, when you just criticize. 00:18:09.436 --> 00:18:22.936 Then you're also not building trust, when you're like, Hey, here's the reality of the situation and because I care about you enough, I'm going to, you know, tell you the truth. 00:18:23.866 --> 00:18:35.626 other part of that is you feel like you can only say so many negative things to someone, but have a high level of care, it doesn't matter how many level, how many negative things you say to people, you. 00:18:36.061 --> 00:18:44.461 You show that care in other ways and by being direct also, and, and it's not as hard as we think it is. 00:18:44.491 --> 00:18:51.511 And a lot of times we, we do this thing where we think, oh, I, I gotta choose the one thing that they have to work on. 00:18:51.511 --> 00:18:55.951 Or I gotta, gotta really focus and like, choose the most important thing. 00:18:55.951 --> 00:19:06.931 And my strategy on that is express gratitude And, and when you're expressing gratitude, that's one of the ways that you show that you have high care. 00:19:07.021 --> 00:19:14.971 And so if you, if you do that, then you're going to be all right in expressing these things. 00:19:15.631 --> 00:19:20.941 And the real challenge that people face is they're like, I, I just need to. 00:19:22.331 --> 00:19:24.166 to tell them what they need to do to improve. 00:19:24.646 --> 00:19:29.206 Uh, but it's not, it's not only that, you also need to recognize where they're being successful, 00:19:29.771 --> 00:19:29.851 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:19:29.896 --> 00:19:30.886 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: don't do that. 00:19:30.916 --> 00:19:38.116 You don't recognize where they're being successful as a way to tell them where they're struggling, because that just doesn't work. 00:19:38.116 --> 00:19:40.066 And people see right through that all the time. 00:19:40.361 --> 00:19:40.441 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:19:40.636 --> 00:19:43.396 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Another way to deal with this is to ask a lot of questions. 00:19:43.611 --> 00:19:44.031 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:19:44.266 --> 00:19:46.876 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Be inquisitive and ask what's going on? 00:19:46.906 --> 00:19:48.556 Why are they making those choices? 00:19:48.856 --> 00:19:58.606 Try to understand first before you get your point across, because the reality is they may have a very good reason for acting the way that they acted. 00:19:58.906 --> 00:20:09.526 And it may make sense if you saw the whole picture, because we don't see the whole picture, and we need to understand the bigger picture before we start saying, this is how it has to be done. 00:20:09.946 --> 00:20:11.926 And most of the time probably. 00:20:11.931 --> 00:20:12.011 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:20:12.271 --> 00:20:15.661 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: They know before we know when they screwed up and made a mistake. 00:20:16.006 --> 00:20:16.096 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:20:16.871 --> 00:20:17.291 Mm-hmm. 00:20:18.466 --> 00:20:20.356 Well, I got a quote from Radical Candor. 00:20:20.356 --> 00:20:25.246 Uh, the best way to keep superstars happy is to challenge them and make sure they are constantly learning. 00:20:25.816 --> 00:20:28.306 And so that's something, you know, to, to, to think about. 00:20:28.336 --> 00:20:31.816 Uh, and you do that by being direct and showing that you care. 00:20:32.326 --> 00:20:34.636 And the other, uh, just encouragement for the listener. 00:20:35.056 --> 00:20:37.336 Act as if everyone's a superstar. 00:20:37.336 --> 00:20:39.406 Call them into their greatest, right? 00:20:39.406 --> 00:20:43.486 And so again, if you, if you're coming from a place of, uh. 00:20:44.056 --> 00:20:48.436 Strength-based and, and also calling them into something even greater. 00:20:48.706 --> 00:20:51.151 I, I believe people are gonna respond to that, so. 00:20:52.201 --> 00:20:53.551 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah, because people want 00:20:53.741 --> 00:20:54.161 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:20:54.301 --> 00:20:54.721 Mm-hmm. 00:20:54.821 --> 00:20:55.241 Mm-hmm. 00:20:55.501 --> 00:21:00.991 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: They want to be part of it and they want to, to add value and be productive and do things that matter. 00:21:01.381 --> 00:21:05.131 And my visual for this one was a, uh. 00:21:06.196 --> 00:21:10.546 Two people stand there talking to each other with GQ and arrows going towards each other. 00:21:11.686 --> 00:21:14.236 Now, to be honest, I don't remember what the GQ was for. 00:21:14.236 --> 00:21:19.576 It was either good question or gratitude, and then question or maybe goal oriented question. 00:21:20.056 --> 00:21:21.676 Honestly, I don't remember. 00:21:21.676 --> 00:21:23.056 So it wasn't that good of a drawing. 00:21:25.531 --> 00:21:29.191 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah, my mine is just showing, you know, you think that the bad, right? 00:21:29.371 --> 00:21:31.831 Happy face, sad face, happy face. 00:21:31.831 --> 00:21:34.081 It actually equals a, a sad face in the end. 00:21:34.501 --> 00:21:37.141 So you, you see the arrow plus the heart equals happy. 00:21:37.591 --> 00:21:39.781 Um, you think about any leader you work for. 00:21:40.261 --> 00:21:42.871 They, they were radically candid, right? 00:21:42.961 --> 00:21:43.921 They, they weren't. 00:21:44.581 --> 00:21:48.841 Um, well, Kim calls it ruinous empathy. 00:21:48.841 --> 00:21:52.261 So when you're really kind, but you're not direct, you're doing the feedback sandwich. 00:21:52.441 --> 00:21:54.121 It's, she calls it ruinous empathy. 00:21:54.121 --> 00:21:57.331 And like I said to the listener, right, uh, people will not trust you. 00:21:57.361 --> 00:22:06.841 So the people that you remember, those coaches and mentors and leaders, um, they had a way of seeing what's great, but also calling you to a higher, you know, higher level. 00:22:06.871 --> 00:22:09.091 So do that, and you'll be all right. 00:22:10.366 --> 00:22:10.726 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah. 00:22:10.786 --> 00:22:11.446 Very good. 00:22:12.736 --> 00:22:17.146 Uh, now it's time for the one that, um, we have literally spent. 00:22:17.956 --> 00:22:27.466 Uh, 20 years between the two of us talking about, um, and that is, uh, the, the premise that we're rejecting is operate in isolation, 00:22:27.691 --> 00:22:27.961 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:22:28.846 --> 00:22:31.396 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: what we're saying is develop a network of support. 00:22:31.456 --> 00:22:32.746 Why don't you start out on this one? 00:22:33.226 --> 00:22:43.696 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah, well, back when I started the podcast, September, um, 20 15, 1 of my early guests, maybe top 20, I'm surprised he came on the show because it was so early back then. 00:22:43.696 --> 00:22:49.786 And he was, you know, a big author, but his name's, uh, Greg Satcha, and he wrote a book called the uh, um. 00:22:50.536 --> 00:22:51.676 The enemies of excellence. 00:22:51.706 --> 00:22:55.216 And to him there were 10 enemies, but the number one enemy was isolation. 00:22:55.276 --> 00:22:55.606 Right? 00:22:56.206 --> 00:22:59.086 And you don't, you know, this isn't rocket science. 00:22:59.086 --> 00:23:10.816 If you think about school leadership, you think about, uh, anything that you, you care about, you think about your relationships, the more withdrawn and independent right, and isolated you are probably the worst off. 00:23:10.876 --> 00:23:15.376 You know, we're, we're built for community, we're built for relationships. 00:23:15.766 --> 00:23:16.816 Um, and you can't. 00:23:17.401 --> 00:23:19.711 You can't see the spinach in your own teeth. 00:23:19.741 --> 00:23:21.421 People need to be able to call that out. 00:23:21.991 --> 00:23:28.111 Uh, and so, you know, in the, in the spaces that Jethro and I lead, there's great value connecting with other leaders. 00:23:28.141 --> 00:23:29.851 Uh, 'cause you get that kind of support. 00:23:30.181 --> 00:23:33.602 They're able to freely share resources, question your thinking, da, da, da. 00:23:33.961 --> 00:23:40.081 But on the subject of thinking, you get to see how other leaders think too, which is an incredible value. 00:23:40.471 --> 00:23:44.641 Uh, and you just, you grow light years, you grow exponentially. 00:23:44.986 --> 00:23:49.936 When you surround yourself with other people, it was, um, Jim Rohn, the motivational speaker, right? 00:23:49.936 --> 00:23:52.756 He says you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. 00:23:53.086 --> 00:23:56.416 And the second I heard that I had to make some changes in my life, right? 00:23:56.806 --> 00:23:58.846 And I've never forgotten that quote. 00:23:58.936 --> 00:23:59.986 That's a good quote. 00:23:59.986 --> 00:24:05.446 If you could hear it a couple of times and remember it a decade later, you know what I mean? 00:24:05.686 --> 00:24:06.676 And so. 00:24:07.006 --> 00:24:12.616 Thinking about that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. 00:24:13.066 --> 00:24:15.376 Think about who you surround yourself in a school. 00:24:15.436 --> 00:24:18.916 Obviously you have your staff that you're gonna, you're gonna have there. 00:24:19.216 --> 00:24:32.146 Um, but the thing is to me, like the ultimate ruckus makers, the A players, you know, top of the game, they don't accept that I am in this system and I'm only gonna. 00:24:32.776 --> 00:24:38.146 Benefit and grow, uh, through what they allow me to have or what they give. 00:24:38.206 --> 00:24:38.596 Right? 00:24:38.956 --> 00:24:45.316 People who are hungry, that are true ruckus makers that wanna do school different, they make it happen, you know? 00:24:45.586 --> 00:24:56.326 And so, uh, hopefully within a system, they're supportive and will give you PD opportunities and, uh, allow you to, you know, put resources, um, towards that network. 00:24:56.746 --> 00:25:01.156 But even if they're not, you know, you either accept that and woe is me. 00:25:02.056 --> 00:25:05.536 You take control of your life and your leadership and you make it happen. 00:25:05.986 --> 00:25:09.676 So this is not to say you have to work with me in Jethro. 00:25:09.886 --> 00:25:11.716 There's plenty of groups, right? 00:25:12.256 --> 00:25:16.426 But the what it is to say is get connected or what are you doing right? 00:25:16.426 --> 00:25:17.416 Do not operate. 00:25:17.536 --> 00:25:18.796 This job is too hard. 00:25:18.886 --> 00:25:19.636 It's too hard. 00:25:20.356 --> 00:25:21.166 Get connected. 00:25:21.316 --> 00:25:24.346 Have a network that will be candid, right? 00:25:24.406 --> 00:25:27.136 And be compassionate and, uh, will level you up. 00:25:28.711 --> 00:25:46.386 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah, and so I, I started this podcast Transformative principle because my, uh, district I did not think was doing a good enough job teaching me how to be a. A kind of principle that I wanted to be, which was one that transformed schools and so. 00:25:47.086 --> 00:25:51.346 I was, I was being taught to be a manager and I wanted 00:25:51.481 --> 00:25:51.701 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm. 00:25:51.856 --> 00:25:52.786 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: a designer of 00:25:53.056 --> 00:25:53.386 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:25:53.626 --> 00:25:53.716 Mm-hmm. 00:25:54.496 --> 00:26:01.816 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and so I said, I've gotta go find people who are doing the, the work that I want to do and, and connect with them. 00:26:02.566 --> 00:26:07.486 then later, uh, started doing the Mastermind and I saw something completely different. 00:26:07.936 --> 00:26:13.966 What I saw were these people who were totally alone, who felt like they didn't have support from. 00:26:14.341 --> 00:26:22.801 Anybody around them talking to people and the thing that people say the most, 'cause at the end of every mastermind call I ask what was most valuable to you today? 00:26:23.131 --> 00:26:23.521 And. 00:26:23.566 --> 00:26:29.986 Yeah, pretty much 98% of the time it's been knowing that I'm not alone in 00:26:30.301 --> 00:26:30.631 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hmm. 00:26:30.646 --> 00:26:36.406 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: So people all over the country, different places, even the world, 'cause we've had some international folks, um, 00:26:36.511 --> 00:26:36.721 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:26:37.156 --> 00:26:41.716 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: I'm dealing with the exact same things that other people are dealing with and I thought I was all alone. 00:26:42.016 --> 00:26:49.426 And like, if you think you're all alone and you're struggling with that, then you gotta go find some support and. 00:26:49.666 --> 00:26:53.026 Uh, lots of places you can go, that's for sure. 00:26:53.116 --> 00:26:55.636 But find some support so that you're not alone. 00:26:55.756 --> 00:27:13.531 And, and the, the picture that I drew for this one, uh, I really like because it's a bunch of interconnected dots and there's a problem dot is connected to a bunch of different things A few connections away. 00:27:13.651 --> 00:27:15.751 There are two people saying I can help. 00:27:16.171 --> 00:27:30.841 And, and this is what's really powerful, is you've, you've been through things, you've have it, you've had experiences the person that you know directly may not know the answer, but somebody connected to them may know. 00:27:31.186 --> 00:27:31.666 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:27:31.741 --> 00:27:35.011 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: I was just, last week I was meeting with these two people. 00:27:35.341 --> 00:27:42.061 Two different people and they both were working on the same thing and I was like, oh my goodness, you guys don't even know each 00:27:42.376 --> 00:27:42.971 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm. Mm-hmm. 00:27:43.141 --> 00:27:44.521 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: the exact same thing. 00:27:44.821 --> 00:27:46.111 You guys need to know each other 00:27:46.111 --> 00:27:47.061 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Right, right. 00:27:48.001 --> 00:27:50.881 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: you're not going to be operating in isolation right now. 00:27:50.881 --> 00:28:03.991 You are, but you could be doing this together and that is just amazing when when you're talking and sharing what's going on with other people, then they can provide that support that you really need. 00:28:04.321 --> 00:28:08.011 To do the work and whatever your job is, it is hard, 00:28:08.146 --> 00:28:08.596 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:28:09.331 --> 00:28:10.711 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: it's tough to do it on your own. 00:28:10.771 --> 00:28:12.121 And so you do need support. 00:28:12.121 --> 00:28:15.031 So whatever level you're at, you need to go find that support. 00:28:15.031 --> 00:28:16.921 And nobody cares about it as much as you do. 00:28:17.011 --> 00:28:18.691 So you gotta be the one to make the choice. 00:28:19.561 --> 00:28:20.671 the choice to go get it. 00:28:20.701 --> 00:28:21.031 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:28:21.751 --> 00:28:22.501 Feeling all right. 00:28:22.501 --> 00:28:24.991 I know that chokes you up when you start talking about, 00:28:25.231 --> 00:28:28.381 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: When I get fired up, sometimes I lose, lose my ability to talk. 00:28:28.381 --> 00:28:29.161 That was one of those. 00:28:29.491 --> 00:28:31.411 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: you know, I reflect on my life and, uh. 00:28:32.971 --> 00:28:36.571 Naturally creative, visionary, hard worker, right? 00:28:36.571 --> 00:28:40.561 And, and anybody who works in isolation has a lot of great positive qualities. 00:28:40.561 --> 00:28:44.551 Like you mentioned, your two friends working on the same thing, but independently. 00:28:45.871 --> 00:28:53.701 And when I started joining Masterminds myself, getting coached and that kind of thing, that unlocked new levels of. 00:28:55.066 --> 00:28:56.476 Success, let's say. 00:28:57.106 --> 00:29:06.496 Uh, and the podcast has hit, you know, a certain level and bestselling books, um, spoken around the world, right to crowds as big as a thousand. 00:29:07.126 --> 00:29:18.796 Uh, and if it really experienced some really neat things that have happened personally and professionally, um, and I believe I just avoided a million dollar mistake to be honest. 00:29:18.796 --> 00:29:23.536 I won't share the, the entire details, uh, but I was hearing over here. 00:29:24.151 --> 00:29:25.561 One idea, right? 00:29:26.341 --> 00:29:31.051 And that's just me and somebody talking and kind of isolated. 00:29:31.501 --> 00:29:37.441 And then I brought that to the larger network that I have and said, Hey, this is what I'm here and this is the deal in front of me. 00:29:37.921 --> 00:29:38.671 What do you think? 00:29:39.271 --> 00:29:39.931 And uh. 00:29:40.636 --> 00:29:45.466 My mentors right in a coach call, uh, there were about six, eight of us. 00:29:45.826 --> 00:29:47.176 They were like, that's a terrible deal. 00:29:47.176 --> 00:29:47.716 Don't take it. 00:29:48.971 --> 00:29:50.716 And, and what, what? 00:29:50.716 --> 00:29:57.076 My one mentor, uh, Christopher Lockhead said, you know, and in business there's missionaries and mercenaries, right? 00:29:57.076 --> 00:30:00.076 Missionaries are giving back and they're doing it. 00:30:00.076 --> 00:30:02.386 They do it even for no money, right? 00:30:02.386 --> 00:30:04.486 Because they're so in love solving the problem. 00:30:05.056 --> 00:30:07.606 And there's, and then there's mercenaries, people who just wanna get ahead. 00:30:08.146 --> 00:30:08.536 Right. 00:30:08.836 --> 00:30:10.966 And make an extra buck and whatever. 00:30:11.326 --> 00:30:13.666 And so that was super great feedback. 00:30:13.666 --> 00:30:16.936 And then I was able to say, no, I'm not, I'm not doing that one thing. 00:30:17.596 --> 00:30:20.476 And I believe it saved at least a million dollars, right? 00:30:20.566 --> 00:30:21.976 Not in one swing. 00:30:22.156 --> 00:30:23.476 It would've been over time. 00:30:23.836 --> 00:30:27.346 But certainly that's, uh, you know, that's what I was looking at. 00:30:27.556 --> 00:30:31.006 And it's only because I wasn't isolated making this decision. 00:30:31.186 --> 00:30:31.516 Right. 00:30:31.846 --> 00:30:33.526 I had a network that I could run it by. 00:30:34.846 --> 00:30:35.236 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah. 00:30:35.656 --> 00:30:38.566 And, and so that's, that's a business decision. 00:30:38.656 --> 00:30:44.206 And so the other part of this is that you, you might need different networks for different purposes, right? 00:30:44.206 --> 00:30:44.626 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:30:44.776 --> 00:30:54.556 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: sometimes some people won't be able to give good insight into a leadership decision versus a personal decision versus a family decision. 00:30:54.826 --> 00:30:57.346 And so being able to understand who those. 00:30:58.426 --> 00:31:02.566 Those supports are that you go to for different things is also valuable. 00:31:02.956 --> 00:31:11.626 Um, and, and I bring that particular piece up because I was asking a group of people for some advice about something and they had no idea. 00:31:12.541 --> 00:31:18.091 I was dealing with, they couldn't wrap their heads around it because they weren't the right group to give support in that arena. 00:31:18.161 --> 00:31:18.916 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah, good point. 00:31:19.321 --> 00:31:25.021 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: they, they still gave some support, but they didn't get the big, the whole picture. 00:31:25.081 --> 00:31:30.241 And I had to do a lot of additional explaining to get them to see where I was coming from. 00:31:30.511 --> 00:31:33.931 And so they made a suggestion and I was like. 00:31:34.231 --> 00:31:36.151 Uh, no, that just doesn't work. 00:31:36.211 --> 00:31:41.011 And so to be clear, I'll, I'll share it here so that people can understand what I'm talking about. 00:31:41.491 --> 00:31:48.211 It was, uh, about getting, um, people to pay for the Mastermind and, and how that works. 00:31:48.511 --> 00:31:57.151 And I, and I was talking about it and they're like, well, just do like these, you know, you gotta make this decision today or it's not gonna work. 00:31:57.451 --> 00:32:01.651 And I had to explain, look, principals don't make decisions that way because. 00:32:02.131 --> 00:32:03.271 They have a district 00:32:03.516 --> 00:32:03.936 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:32:03.991 --> 00:32:05.161 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: a process to go through. 00:32:05.161 --> 00:32:09.391 There's a bureaucratic system in place that has to, you know, meet all these things. 00:32:09.841 --> 00:32:14.491 And so, you know, the sales cycle is just really long and they're like. 00:32:15.226 --> 00:32:16.996 Well then, then don't sell to 'em. 00:32:17.776 --> 00:32:20.746 like, well, that's like who I serve. 00:32:20.746 --> 00:32:29.176 And so I can't not sell to them because I'm not trying to help, uh, business leaders who have a budget and can do that. 00:32:29.206 --> 00:32:30.016 Just like that. 00:32:30.181 --> 00:32:30.601 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm-hmm. 00:32:30.826 --> 00:32:31.816 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: to school principals. 00:32:31.816 --> 00:32:33.346 And that's, that's the whole point. 00:32:33.346 --> 00:32:34.966 That's that's who I'm trying to serve. 00:32:34.966 --> 00:32:39.886 So I have to play within the system that exists, even if that system is not perfect. 00:32:39.946 --> 00:32:41.926 And, and the reason why. 00:32:42.346 --> 00:32:46.006 That was the wrong group to talk to is that they had no experience selling to schools. 00:32:46.696 --> 00:32:52.876 then I talked to somebody who does have experience and he said, oh, well here's how you solve this problem. 00:32:53.116 --> 00:32:59.326 And, and he gave me such beautiful insight that was totally aligned with, with what I think and believe. 00:32:59.326 --> 00:33:04.186 And it was really, really valuable because he understood the context 00:33:04.261 --> 00:33:04.741 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Mm. 00:33:04.936 --> 00:33:09.706 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: and understood what, what schools are trying to do and how to help them, that that kind of. 00:33:09.751 --> 00:33:13.711 Yeah, talking to the right group really does make a difference. 00:33:13.801 --> 00:33:14.071 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Yeah. 00:33:14.071 --> 00:33:14.611 Big time. 00:33:14.791 --> 00:33:15.271 Good point. 00:33:16.141 --> 00:33:16.381 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah. 00:33:16.441 --> 00:33:17.761 Did you draw a picture for this one? 00:33:17.941 --> 00:33:21.301 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Uh, yeah, very similar to IS with the dots, right? 00:33:21.301 --> 00:33:24.811 So excellence and you see, you know, a person surrounded by, uh, support. 00:33:25.276 --> 00:33:27.466 And then the isolation is just you on an island. 00:33:27.466 --> 00:33:27.826 Right. 00:33:27.826 --> 00:33:32.356 So, and to me, you know, I talk about you, you said, you know, you could be just a good manager. 00:33:32.356 --> 00:33:33.016 And that's the thing. 00:33:33.016 --> 00:33:34.696 Play it Safe principles are managers. 00:33:34.696 --> 00:33:35.446 They're not leaders. 00:33:35.446 --> 00:33:38.476 So, um, sorry, not sorry for saying that. 00:33:38.476 --> 00:33:41.326 And, and you're protecting the status quo. 00:33:41.326 --> 00:33:41.626 It's hard. 00:33:41.631 --> 00:33:43.246 You, you can't lead alone. 00:33:43.426 --> 00:33:44.536 You gotta have a network. 00:33:44.926 --> 00:33:45.316 Um. 00:33:46.171 --> 00:33:51.901 Everything that you've learned has been learned through probably like a binder or a manual or what the system has told you to do. 00:33:51.961 --> 00:33:53.191 That's 'cause you're doing it alone. 00:33:53.581 --> 00:34:01.441 So if you really align with this idea that ruckus makers do school different, you wanna reimagine education even within a traditional system. 00:34:01.441 --> 00:34:08.311 I. So that, listen to these words so that you create a campus experience worth showing up for. 00:34:08.371 --> 00:34:08.551 You. 00:34:08.551 --> 00:34:10.501 Do that within a group, right? 00:34:10.801 --> 00:34:16.291 So find yourself a way to get connected and uh, that way you could create that campus of your dreams. 00:34:17.551 --> 00:34:17.851 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yeah. 00:34:18.631 --> 00:34:19.051 All right. 00:34:19.051 --> 00:34:20.911 So there's, there's our next three. 00:34:21.121 --> 00:34:23.551 Uh, this has been, this has been pretty good. 00:34:23.581 --> 00:34:25.231 I, I enjoy this approach. 00:34:25.231 --> 00:34:28.141 I think it's working well, so I'm, I'm happy we're doing it. 00:34:28.501 --> 00:34:42.091 Um, so we went through three different premises that we rejected, operate in isolation, and we're saying you should instead develop a network of support, give feedback, sandwiches, and we're saying instead, you should be inquisitive and. 00:34:43.081 --> 00:34:44.461 like 'em, then move them out. 00:34:44.581 --> 00:34:49.351 And we said, you need to find a place for people to best achieve their goals. 00:34:49.711 --> 00:34:52.831 So those are our three for today. 00:34:53.041 --> 00:34:55.771 If you are listening to this and you're like, Hey, this is good stuff. 00:34:55.771 --> 00:34:59.161 You guys should keep doing it, that really helps us. 00:34:59.191 --> 00:35:00.391 So let us know. 00:35:00.451 --> 00:35:02.641 You follow both of us on social media. 00:35:02.911 --> 00:35:03.751 Give it a share. 00:35:04.051 --> 00:35:05.191 Uh, give us a shout out. 00:35:05.506 --> 00:35:07.066 And say, Hey, this is nice. 00:35:07.066 --> 00:35:10.456 We like it, this format, and, and we're going to, we're 00:35:10.576 --> 00:35:10.796 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: Hm. 00:35:10.876 --> 00:35:11.356 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: going. 00:35:11.446 --> 00:35:13.726 Unless people are like, Hey, this is terrible. 00:35:13.726 --> 00:35:14.656 You guys should stop. 00:35:14.926 --> 00:35:16.726 Then that's, that's good feedback. 00:35:17.026 --> 00:35:19.606 You know, we're looking for radical candor. 00:35:19.786 --> 00:35:23.176 We want you to have high care and be direct. 00:35:23.206 --> 00:35:24.376 So let us know. 00:35:24.586 --> 00:35:27.826 We're not looking just for compliments, we're looking for radical candor. 00:35:27.826 --> 00:35:32.056 So that's, that's us putting where our money, where our mouth is and, and we really believe that. 00:35:32.506 --> 00:35:33.976 Uh, any final words, Danny? 00:35:34.756 --> 00:35:36.286 danny--ruckus-maker-_1_05-28-2025_110903: I just thank you for the opportunity. 00:35:36.286 --> 00:35:39.166 It's good to connect again and then we'll see, uh, everybody in part three. 00:35:39.171 --> 00:35:40.071 Back on, uh, my show. 00:35:40.431 --> 00:35:40.551 I. 00:35:41.341 --> 00:35:41.611 jethro_1_05-28-2025_080859: Yep. 00:35:41.641 --> 00:35:46.351 So once again, part One on Better Leaders, better Schools, the link is in the show notes. 00:35:46.651 --> 00:35:52.621 Part two is on, uh, Transformative principle that's here, and part three's gonna go back to him. 00:35:52.621 --> 00:35:56.251 And then all the odd ones are gonna be on his, and all the even ones are gonna be on mine. 00:35:56.551 --> 00:35:57.901 And we're just gonna keep doing this. 00:35:57.901 --> 00:36:00.451 And we don't have like a perfect release schedule. 00:36:00.451 --> 00:36:02.851 So it's not like these are all gonna be. 00:36:03.136 --> 00:36:09.856 In line or, or like, uh, every week or whatever, we're gonna release them as, as it makes sense. 00:36:09.886 --> 00:36:11.266 And, and that's it. 00:36:11.296 --> 00:36:14.596 So, uh, I hope you enjoy this, uh, eventually. 00:36:14.596 --> 00:36:19.546 I'm sure we will put them all in one place, but for right now, this is what it's gonna, what it's gonna be. 00:36:19.546 --> 00:36:22.756 So, thank you for listening to Transformative Principal. 00:36:22.756 --> 00:36:27.106 Thank you for being here, Danny, and I hope everybody has a wonderful week.