1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,560 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,229 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 3 00:00:05,590 --> 00:00:08,530 In this episode, you will hear Part One of my conversation with 4 00:00:08,530 --> 00:00:12,590 Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas Murray from University of Arizona. 5 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:18,119 Devon and Tom are course directors for University 301, General 6 00:00:18,119 --> 00:00:22,910 Education Portfolio, and University 101 Introduction to General 7 00:00:22,910 --> 00:00:24,910 Education Experience, respectively. 8 00:00:25,140 --> 00:00:29,350 They are both also Associate Professors of Practice at the W. 9 00:00:29,350 --> 00:00:29,650 A. 10 00:00:29,670 --> 00:00:32,839 Franke Honors College in the Office of General Education. 11 00:00:33,759 --> 00:00:37,760 More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's 12 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,730 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 13 00:00:40,150 --> 00:00:43,290 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on 14 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:44,969 YouTube or your favorite podcast app. 15 00:00:45,610 --> 00:00:48,200 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:49,580 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 17 00:00:49,949 --> 00:00:54,890 My guests today are Devon Thomas Jones, course director of University 18 00:00:54,899 --> 00:01:00,419 301, General Education Portfolio, and Thomas Murray, course director 19 00:01:00,429 --> 00:01:04,599 of University 101, Introduction to the General Education Experience. 20 00:01:05,199 --> 00:01:08,999 They are both Associate Professors of Practice at W. 21 00:01:09,050 --> 00:01:09,479 A. 22 00:01:09,779 --> 00:01:13,229 Franke Honors College and the Office of General Education 23 00:01:13,279 --> 00:01:15,080 at University of Arizona. 24 00:01:16,089 --> 00:01:16,679 Welcome. 25 00:01:17,530 --> 00:01:17,970 Thank you. 26 00:01:18,150 --> 00:01:18,820 Thanks. 27 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,169 We usually do one on one conversations, but I've always 28 00:01:23,169 --> 00:01:25,189 known the both of you as a pair. 29 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:29,370 Um, I feel like we've always talked to both of you. 30 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,070 Um, and so, um, I thought it would, it would be just, uh, uh, be useful 31 00:01:35,089 --> 00:01:38,800 to, to, to have both of you on Digication Scholars Conversation. 32 00:01:39,289 --> 00:01:46,630 Um, Now, you both direct, um, two different, um, courses in the same sort of 33 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,770 Gen Ed program in University of Arizona. 34 00:01:50,830 --> 00:01:57,330 Maybe for folks who are joining us who are not even aware of what does all this mean? 35 00:01:57,330 --> 00:02:00,220 What is Gen Ed, University 101, 301? 36 00:02:00,690 --> 00:02:04,585 These are all lingos that sometimes, you know, even folks that are in 37 00:02:04,615 --> 00:02:06,385 higher education get confused. 38 00:02:06,675 --> 00:02:10,345 Could you, like, tell us a little bit about what these, what these 39 00:02:10,345 --> 00:02:11,935 courses are and what, what you do? 40 00:02:12,885 --> 00:02:13,545 Sure. 41 00:02:14,305 --> 00:02:18,435 Um, I think it's actually, it's interesting that you say a lot of 42 00:02:18,484 --> 00:02:20,614 people might not understand all this is. 43 00:02:21,035 --> 00:02:24,954 That's actually the purpose in some ways of both of our courses. 44 00:02:25,024 --> 00:02:30,695 Um, it is to help students understand and make meaning of their General 45 00:02:30,695 --> 00:02:36,815 Education coursework, um, which provides, uh, really broad and rich 46 00:02:36,845 --> 00:02:41,274 foundation for, you know, whatever major or majors they might be pursuing. 47 00:02:41,754 --> 00:02:47,664 So, our courses are actually designed to address that very issue at this 48 00:02:47,665 --> 00:02:51,815 institution so that students know, you know, why are we doing this? 49 00:02:51,825 --> 00:02:54,604 Like, what is the value of doing General Education? 50 00:02:54,665 --> 00:02:56,785 How can I make it meaningful for myself? 51 00:02:57,225 --> 00:03:02,339 How can I Describe to myself and others what it is that I've 52 00:03:02,339 --> 00:03:06,669 learned so that they're getting the most benefit out of that General 53 00:03:06,669 --> 00:03:08,109 Education program that they can. 54 00:03:08,690 --> 00:03:12,159 Um, and it is, it's, it's two bookends, right? 55 00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:16,460 Which is why Devon and I often appear simultaneously in the same spaces 56 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,980 because we're, we're, our courses are two sides of the same coin. 57 00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:29,010 And, um, could you tell, like, let's step back even one step further. 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:29,720 It's not one step. 59 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,880 You know, further from, from, from that for people who don't know 60 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,570 what General Education is, right? 61 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,950 So we, you talked about, well, what's the value of General Education? 62 00:03:41,199 --> 00:03:44,740 Let me give people some examples of what, what is General Education? 63 00:03:44,750 --> 00:03:48,440 You know, if you've, if you, you are not in college yet, you are 64 00:03:48,460 --> 00:03:51,540 thinking about attending college and you hear about General Education, 65 00:03:51,540 --> 00:03:52,720 but you don't know what that is. 66 00:03:53,340 --> 00:03:55,280 How does one even start to understand that? 67 00:03:55,810 --> 00:03:56,420 Sure. 68 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,779 I love talking about this. 69 00:03:58,780 --> 00:03:59,610 That's why Devon waited. 70 00:03:59,610 --> 00:04:01,820 She knows, she knows that I love talking about this. 71 00:04:02,269 --> 00:04:08,910 Um, so General Education is about developing the whole person. 72 00:04:09,049 --> 00:04:14,200 It's about developing ways of thinking and ways of knowing that are not 73 00:04:14,210 --> 00:04:17,990 just about Vocational trading, right? 74 00:04:18,050 --> 00:04:22,560 Um, you know, students go to college, they want to get a really great career, 75 00:04:22,570 --> 00:04:24,549 really great job out of it as they should. 76 00:04:25,090 --> 00:04:32,879 Part of what supports that great career is the capacity to think outside of kind of 77 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,579 the narrow focus of what that career is. 78 00:04:36,039 --> 00:04:41,435 So, At the University of Arizona, for example, we have four learning 79 00:04:41,435 --> 00:04:45,635 outcomes for our General Education program, which are, um, Communicating 80 00:04:45,645 --> 00:04:49,465 Effectively, Thinking Critically, Using Information Effectively 81 00:04:49,465 --> 00:04:52,835 and Ethically, and Understanding and Valuing Differences, right? 82 00:04:52,864 --> 00:04:58,665 So these, these learning outcomes describe skills that transcend 83 00:04:59,189 --> 00:05:00,849 Any particular field, right? 84 00:05:00,900 --> 00:05:04,169 No matter what field you're going into, your employer is going 85 00:05:04,169 --> 00:05:07,219 to value your capacity to think critically and problem solve. 86 00:05:07,499 --> 00:05:11,490 They're going to value your ability to communicate effectively in 87 00:05:11,490 --> 00:05:17,190 writing, um, and speaking across contexts, across audiences. 88 00:05:17,639 --> 00:05:22,229 And General Education courses help develop that capacity. 89 00:05:23,349 --> 00:05:28,870 And the great thing is then you can, you can take these courses that have Any 90 00:05:28,910 --> 00:05:33,570 number of topics to them, um, because in some ways the topics don't even matter. 91 00:05:33,580 --> 00:05:37,739 It's the, it's the ways of thinking and doing that they're helping you 92 00:05:37,739 --> 00:05:39,710 develop, um, that really matters. 93 00:05:39,719 --> 00:05:43,829 So we, we have General Education courses at the U of A on zombies. 94 00:05:43,890 --> 00:05:47,859 Uh, we have, um, some that are on like video games and video 95 00:05:47,859 --> 00:05:49,170 games in societies, right? 96 00:05:49,170 --> 00:05:54,440 And so these really broad topics, it doesn't really matter that 97 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,539 you're studying zombies, right? 98 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,280 What, What you're really learning about is how, through literature, humans 99 00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:05,310 have created the idea of monsters and that way of thinking and, um, 100 00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:12,820 understanding how humans, um, create differences between them, um, and 101 00:06:13,369 --> 00:06:17,130 all sorts of ways of thinking that 20 years from now, you're going to forget 102 00:06:17,130 --> 00:06:18,580 what you learned about zombies, right? 103 00:06:18,620 --> 00:06:21,200 But the way of thinking stays with you. 104 00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:24,770 And that's a, that's a really huge value of General Education. 105 00:06:25,250 --> 00:06:31,149 I love that sense of these skills are durable and transferable 106 00:06:31,159 --> 00:06:32,830 over a long period of time. 107 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:41,640 And that, um, it's not specific to disciplines and content that Actually, 108 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:47,060 I, I think that I, you know, I've been talking, you know, I, I have kids that 109 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:51,669 are sort of close to college age and you know, I talk to them and their 110 00:06:51,669 --> 00:06:58,099 friends and I feel like sometimes there's this sort of notion that, you 111 00:06:58,099 --> 00:07:01,890 know, when I go to college, I want to get a job at this, whatever, you know, 112 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:04,200 like give it a label, whatever that is. 113 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,500 And sometimes I think that there's this tension between that and 114 00:07:08,570 --> 00:07:11,820 actually you also going there to learn to become a better learner. 115 00:07:12,390 --> 00:07:16,860 And that, that may be even more important because that one skill that 116 00:07:16,860 --> 00:07:22,329 you're mentioning now, um, that's going to change in the next five, 10 117 00:07:22,340 --> 00:07:25,369 years, 15, 20 years for sure, right? 118 00:07:25,420 --> 00:07:31,119 And that, and that your, your foundational skills to be able to learn is so much 119 00:07:31,119 --> 00:07:35,960 more important because as those things change, um, those durable skills that 120 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,400 you were talking about, like, you know, communicating effectively, quick 121 00:07:39,430 --> 00:07:43,674 to thinking critically, um, Being able to take information and what was 122 00:07:43,674 --> 00:07:46,405 it, um, um, ethically and, uh, uh. 123 00:07:46,414 --> 00:07:47,655 Effectively and ethically. 124 00:07:48,265 --> 00:07:52,674 Effectively and ethically, um, and I forgot the last one, um. 125 00:07:52,724 --> 00:07:54,445 Understanding and valuing difference. 126 00:07:54,835 --> 00:07:55,905 Understanding, yeah. 127 00:07:56,104 --> 00:08:03,484 And, and these are all things that, um, they're like evergreen topics, right? 128 00:08:03,484 --> 00:08:08,540 There are things that will apply to us Not only for any specific content area, 129 00:08:08,570 --> 00:08:13,590 but also just in life, in leadership, in relationships with people, um, 130 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:15,910 and finding meaning in general. 131 00:08:15,970 --> 00:08:20,799 And so I, I, I think that there, you know, I think that there's, there is, 132 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:26,875 there is this weird tension of students today thinking about going to college, 133 00:08:26,875 --> 00:08:31,645 attending college, and there's this idea that like, oh, I attend college. 134 00:08:31,655 --> 00:08:32,835 What is your major? 135 00:08:32,894 --> 00:08:34,595 You know, what am I going to get a job at? 136 00:08:34,635 --> 00:08:37,244 Of course, there's the tension of also student loans and so on. 137 00:08:37,245 --> 00:08:39,085 So you want to be able to pay it back, right? 138 00:08:39,314 --> 00:08:40,274 You want to be able to afford it. 139 00:08:40,514 --> 00:08:44,620 But, you know, They think about, you know, sort of that very practical 140 00:08:44,620 --> 00:08:47,780 tension of, okay, if I'm going to be a nurse, why do I have to learn 141 00:08:47,780 --> 00:08:49,410 how to do all these other things? 142 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,640 And the idea is, you know, and, and that's really what you guys do. 143 00:08:54,650 --> 00:08:55,840 You're like, hold on a minute. 144 00:08:56,100 --> 00:08:59,809 Actually, whether you want to be a nurse or an engineer or a lawyer 145 00:08:59,810 --> 00:09:03,580 or a doctor, these are all things that's going to apply to you. 146 00:09:03,590 --> 00:09:04,140 Right, right. 147 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,000 Well, and, and, um, A strong General Education foundation 148 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,740 cuts across industry, right? 149 00:09:10,770 --> 00:09:16,709 And so to think about your General Education, um, typically, right, in U. 150 00:09:16,709 --> 00:09:17,150 S. 151 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,319 uh, colleges and universities, this is a large component of your 152 00:09:20,319 --> 00:09:24,459 degree requirement, um, anywhere from maybe a quarter to a third 153 00:09:24,469 --> 00:09:27,250 of the number of credits that you need to complete your degree. 154 00:09:27,270 --> 00:09:32,600 And we also know, right, that with an ever changing, like, job market and 155 00:09:32,610 --> 00:09:37,820 industry and the way that things are changing and we're preparing folks to 156 00:09:37,820 --> 00:09:40,380 graduate into careers that don't exist. 157 00:09:40,420 --> 00:09:45,390 Um, it also then makes your degree more valuable because it makes it more 158 00:09:45,390 --> 00:09:47,290 transferable to different industries. 159 00:09:47,299 --> 00:09:51,470 So when you are studying to be a creative writer, the kinds of skill sets you 160 00:09:51,470 --> 00:09:56,550 need Working for a law firm is going to maybe look a lot different than if 161 00:09:56,550 --> 00:10:01,839 you're working in a marketing or ad agency, but being able to effectively 162 00:10:01,849 --> 00:10:07,010 work on a team or delegate, like, those are things that are required in either 163 00:10:07,010 --> 00:10:10,719 of those industries, and those are the kinds of skills and mindsets that you get 164 00:10:10,719 --> 00:10:14,990 to practice and get a lot of experience in through your General Education. 165 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,260 So, yes, I think sometimes, um, it can feel like with the cost of 166 00:10:20,260 --> 00:10:25,499 college and with the time to degree that the urgency around, well, I want 167 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:27,060 to get these things out of the way. 168 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:31,060 I want to complete my gen eds as fast as possible because I want to get to the, the 169 00:10:31,060 --> 00:10:33,090 good stuff when I'm here to study, right? 170 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,360 Um, but rather if we can reframe it as, this is part of the value 171 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:39,839 that you get to take with you. 172 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,149 regardless of where you end up with your degree that, that adds a layer, um, of 173 00:10:45,149 --> 00:10:49,729 transferability and applicability that may not exist if you end up taking, you know, 174 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:53,499 getting a degree in something and not actually then ending up in that industry. 175 00:10:55,460 --> 00:10:56,150 No, I love that. 176 00:10:56,190 --> 00:11:01,460 And I, I, I have a, I have a Something that I want to check with you on, 177 00:11:01,460 --> 00:11:04,240 and this is something that I, I. 178 00:11:04,589 --> 00:11:08,310 I feel like that I've heard a lot of people say, and I can hypothesize, 179 00:11:08,349 --> 00:11:12,030 but I don't know whether you know people, you know, I mean, you are, you 180 00:11:12,030 --> 00:11:15,579 are the pros here, you know, so you might, you have more to say about this. 181 00:11:16,029 --> 00:11:20,650 I really feel like that for people who have gained these skills, right? 182 00:11:21,129 --> 00:11:25,639 Like you said, top, the subject matter itself wasn't even the point of it. 183 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,349 You could be studying zombies, um, but. 184 00:11:28,505 --> 00:11:33,135 Once you've gained these, you know, sort of foundational skills, you know, 185 00:11:33,135 --> 00:11:36,365 to thinking, to be, to be someone who can, you know, who can think 186 00:11:36,365 --> 00:11:40,944 critically, et cetera, it actually makes you more effective a learner, 187 00:11:40,975 --> 00:11:43,054 whatever field you go into anyway. 188 00:11:43,284 --> 00:11:48,214 So if we were to think about like your, roughly speaking, a four year 189 00:11:48,214 --> 00:11:52,454 undergraduate education, I know people, you know, can fluctuate, you 190 00:11:52,454 --> 00:11:54,275 know, those four years are not exact. 191 00:11:54,695 --> 00:11:59,515 Um, That you spend some of some portion of the time developing these skills. 192 00:11:59,815 --> 00:12:03,495 You'll spend some other times developing skills in specific, 193 00:12:03,525 --> 00:12:05,345 you know, more narrow disciplines. 194 00:12:05,935 --> 00:12:09,895 But the times that you actually, once you have these skills, when you go 195 00:12:09,895 --> 00:12:14,014 into the disciplines, you're going to be a much more effective learner. 196 00:12:14,435 --> 00:12:21,425 I believe that the net result is actually that you are better at everything. 197 00:12:21,495 --> 00:12:26,925 Like the net benefit after four years, let's say, is Better than if you had 198 00:12:26,925 --> 00:12:31,025 spent four years, day one, go to nursing 101 and you'd skipped all of this. 199 00:12:31,295 --> 00:12:35,875 You would be a good nurse, but you would be a better nurse if you actually spent 200 00:12:36,165 --> 00:12:41,314 some of that time, even half of that time in General Education, and then only spend 201 00:12:41,675 --> 00:12:45,074 half the time in nursing because during the half, half the time being in nursing, 202 00:12:45,075 --> 00:12:49,334 you're actually doing more like you're being more effective as a, as a learner. 203 00:12:49,824 --> 00:12:51,594 What do you think about that hypothesis? 204 00:12:51,655 --> 00:12:54,215 I completely agree with that because because nursing doesn't 205 00:12:54,215 --> 00:12:55,995 happen in a vacuum, right? 206 00:12:56,045 --> 00:12:58,035 Engineering doesn't happen in a vacuum. 207 00:12:58,625 --> 00:12:59,945 You engineer for people. 208 00:12:59,955 --> 00:13:01,385 You engineer for communities. 209 00:13:01,385 --> 00:13:02,645 You engineer for cities, right? 210 00:13:02,645 --> 00:13:05,865 You engineer in a, in a complex system. 211 00:13:05,874 --> 00:13:07,814 You nurse in a complex system. 212 00:13:08,105 --> 00:13:09,765 You teach in a complex system. 213 00:13:09,805 --> 00:13:13,494 And so you need to understand and be able to interact with that 214 00:13:13,494 --> 00:13:16,964 system, um, in, in complex ways. 215 00:13:17,285 --> 00:13:21,235 Because if all you, if all you know are the technicalities of nursing, 216 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,730 That's a very limited understanding of what it means to be a nurse. 217 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:31,280 And the skills that you gain outside of your industry make 218 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:32,780 you that more complex thinker. 219 00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:36,119 And I think Jeff, you, you mentioned earlier, it's not just about your career. 220 00:13:36,119 --> 00:13:37,149 It's about your personal life. 221 00:13:37,150 --> 00:13:38,429 It's about your relationships, right? 222 00:13:38,429 --> 00:13:41,990 These, these skills that you develop in General Education go 223 00:13:41,999 --> 00:13:44,720 way beyond the career, right? 224 00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:50,070 It, It changes, you know, if you are an effective communicator, and in 15 225 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,670 years you decide that you want to be a volunteer coach for your kid's sports 226 00:13:54,670 --> 00:13:59,589 team, that effective communication is going to benefit you as a coach 227 00:13:59,860 --> 00:14:01,369 on your kid's sports team, right? 228 00:14:01,420 --> 00:14:05,765 Um, so there's so much value to it other than, you know, You know, how 229 00:14:05,765 --> 00:14:07,065 it's going to impact your career. 230 00:14:08,085 --> 00:14:08,375 Right. 231 00:14:08,615 --> 00:14:13,515 And I mean, Thanksgiving is coming up, um, you know, at that Thanksgiving 232 00:14:13,515 --> 00:14:18,155 dinner table, if you want to effectively communicate with your, with your, your 233 00:14:18,155 --> 00:14:21,994 family, um, that's, uh, then this will be a skill that, that, uh, you can come 234 00:14:21,994 --> 00:14:24,064 back from, you know, college to use that. 235 00:14:24,775 --> 00:14:30,625 Um, I, I want to, I want to pick up on that, um, Tom, a little 236 00:14:30,625 --> 00:14:38,949 bit, maybe go a little bit in the, uh, Tangential sort of direction. 237 00:14:39,780 --> 00:14:41,120 I think I agree with you. 238 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,360 A lot of these skills are, you know, applicable in so many ways, right? 239 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:49,960 I think that there is something that when I see your program and I see your 240 00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:55,639 students work and, and some of the things that we've talked about, it's 241 00:14:55,649 --> 00:15:01,550 also about getting students to have a sense of mission and purpose, a sense 242 00:15:01,550 --> 00:15:04,230 of 'What am I doing in this world?' 243 00:15:04,290 --> 00:15:09,530 What's going to make me feel a sense of fulfillment and joy? 244 00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:18,910 Um, that goes beyond the financial rewards, the, even the, you 245 00:15:18,910 --> 00:15:22,580 know, fame, basically beyond the fame and fortune, right? 246 00:15:23,050 --> 00:15:32,069 Um, I, I, I sometimes think that maybe in the Western culture and in in the 247 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:41,960 United States, we don't, Talk about that so much, you know, um, but, but these 248 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:47,090 are things that I think that our students are, have been feeling, especially in the 249 00:15:47,090 --> 00:15:55,760 last few years after COVID, especially after COVID after, um, um, you know, 250 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:01,250 these, you know, those years of sort of isolation and sort of trying to think 251 00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:04,909 about meaning and, and it's sort of like a wake up call for everyone, right? 252 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:11,005 Um, And I, I, I have found a lot of people, young people are 253 00:16:11,025 --> 00:16:12,834 actually having these conversations. 254 00:16:13,225 --> 00:16:16,594 You know, some of it is about work life balance, but it's actually a lot 255 00:16:16,605 --> 00:16:24,464 more about, you know, some of them are like, I, I, I don't want to, um, be an 256 00:16:24,464 --> 00:16:31,474 engineer and just work on how to make a banner ad, you know, be more effective. 257 00:16:31,984 --> 00:16:35,074 Um, even if that were going to pay you a lot of money, 258 00:16:35,185 --> 00:16:36,614 um, they don't want that job. 259 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,110 They want something a little bit more meaningful. 260 00:16:40,329 --> 00:16:45,244 That's a part of Conversation that I have with people that make gives me so 261 00:16:45,244 --> 00:16:50,575 much hope and and optimism about the world But I think it really comes from 262 00:16:51,525 --> 00:16:55,235 Opportunities that you are providing to your students through these courses. 263 00:16:55,814 --> 00:17:03,095 Yeah, we have we have a lot of students who Um, when they get to U of A and 264 00:17:03,095 --> 00:17:06,135 they, and they take, in a unit of one to one, when we're trying to get 265 00:17:06,135 --> 00:17:10,525 them to explore things that they're interested in, they actually, in a lot 266 00:17:10,525 --> 00:17:12,994 of ways, they're stymied by it, right? 267 00:17:13,005 --> 00:17:16,384 Like, they, they're confused by the question. 268 00:17:16,395 --> 00:17:18,664 When we ask them, like, what are you curious about? 269 00:17:18,715 --> 00:17:19,994 What do you want to learn? 270 00:17:20,475 --> 00:17:27,345 It actually, is a moment of panic for some of them because in 12 years of 271 00:17:27,345 --> 00:17:32,254 formal education, some of them have never had an educator ask them, what 272 00:17:32,255 --> 00:17:34,245 is it that you're curious about, right? 273 00:17:34,315 --> 00:17:39,595 Um, and so it's this, this kind of aha moment for them of understanding 274 00:17:39,604 --> 00:17:44,264 that what they're interested in, uh, has value and it's important. 275 00:17:44,395 --> 00:17:48,294 And it can actually direct their learning and, oh my goodness, 276 00:17:48,314 --> 00:17:50,125 maybe even make learning fun. 277 00:17:50,544 --> 00:17:54,095 Um, it's, it's such a revelation for some of them. 278 00:17:54,165 --> 00:17:58,725 Um, and I know on the, on the other end, you started off by talking about purpose. 279 00:17:58,754 --> 00:18:03,745 I know that Devon's got plenty of examples of, of students who in the portfolio 280 00:18:03,754 --> 00:18:06,175 process have kind of found that purpose. 281 00:18:07,545 --> 00:18:07,935 Yeah. 282 00:18:07,935 --> 00:18:14,480 And I think what we're hoping to do, um, You know, these, the courses that 283 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:21,730 Tom and I lead, right, um, are really asking students, um, to forefront, 284 00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:24,030 like, what's in it for them, right? 285 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:25,410 And what have they learned? 286 00:18:25,420 --> 00:18:27,480 And then how does that learning matter to them? 287 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:33,490 And I think that that is a pedagogical shift, uh, in mindset that Many 288 00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:38,010 students are unfamiliar with because so much of it is tell me what I've 289 00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:43,260 taught you and demonstrate that you know and have received the information. 290 00:18:43,289 --> 00:18:48,009 And, um, it's not to say that that still doesn't happen, right? 291 00:18:48,010 --> 00:18:53,989 But really to center, um, and put the responsibility on the student as the 292 00:18:53,989 --> 00:19:02,200 learner and drivers of their meaning making, uh, gives purpose, uh, like 293 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:07,380 a new light and then in turn we know that when we understand why we're 294 00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:12,970 doing something and what value it might offer me, I'm more like energized 295 00:19:12,970 --> 00:19:14,380 to follow through on it, right? 296 00:19:14,409 --> 00:19:19,869 It, it adds a layer of motivation and commitment to learning, um, 297 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,469 that may not exist otherwise. 298 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:27,520 Um, so I think that that's an exciting moment for students, um, and something 299 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:33,135 that We try to preserve, uh, as much as, right, in, in higher ed and 300 00:19:33,145 --> 00:19:37,745 education, there's always external factors that place pressure on 301 00:19:38,265 --> 00:19:43,015 curriculum, on, um, you know, standards of learning and things like that. 302 00:19:43,024 --> 00:19:48,274 But to preserve the piece that the student is the primary agent and responsible for 303 00:19:48,274 --> 00:19:52,555 their learning and we're here to support that learning, um, is something that we, 304 00:19:52,940 --> 00:19:55,750 Keep close and in our work and our values. 305 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:57,210 Yeah. 306 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,370 Can I say something that I think people Really sometimes don't 307 00:20:01,370 --> 00:20:05,100 realize what you all do is hard work. 308 00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:09,069 It's really hard work You are you know, it's it's almost like to me. 309 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:14,389 It feels like if I were to compare, you know Here's ten things. 310 00:20:14,389 --> 00:20:18,565 I just want students to remember them and then test them on it It almost 311 00:20:18,565 --> 00:20:20,145 feels, Oh man, that would have been easy. 312 00:20:20,755 --> 00:20:21,005 Right. 313 00:20:21,025 --> 00:20:26,414 But what you guys do are saying, Oh no, we are trying to get to every person and 314 00:20:26,414 --> 00:20:31,225 try to try to figure out who they each are, that they are going to come up with 315 00:20:31,225 --> 00:20:33,655 answers that we, we, we have no idea. 316 00:20:33,655 --> 00:20:37,344 We get, we have to read each of them, each, each one of them. 317 00:20:37,365 --> 00:20:38,995 We have to understand each one of them. 318 00:20:39,235 --> 00:20:45,685 We have to take into context and come up with a way to give them feedback, right? 319 00:20:45,695 --> 00:20:50,205 That's a lot more work than just saying, what are the 10 correct answers? 320 00:20:50,225 --> 00:20:52,925 I can just check it, yes or no, and then be done, right? 321 00:20:52,945 --> 00:20:57,955 So I think that people sometimes almost, I almost feel like, you know, there's, 322 00:20:58,035 --> 00:21:01,455 I talked to some students that go, well, I'm thinking about just going to 323 00:21:01,455 --> 00:21:03,985 do this little bootcamp or whatever. 324 00:21:04,485 --> 00:21:05,815 I'm not saying those things are bad. 325 00:21:05,875 --> 00:21:07,565 I just think that they have no idea. 326 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:14,650 Like they're not even comparing apples to to this is apples and and trees, you 327 00:21:14,650 --> 00:21:19,240 know, it's not even They're like in a different league or completely different 328 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:27,069 league And and so so so and speaking of hard work I want to talk a little bit 329 00:21:27,069 --> 00:21:33,114 about the scale in which you do this in because I've heard people that go, 330 00:21:33,134 --> 00:21:39,625 well, that'd be nice because you are in the, uh, Liberal Arts, you know, 331 00:21:40,115 --> 00:21:43,435 program where you have 12 students in your class, you can all discuss and, 332 00:21:43,435 --> 00:21:48,214 you know, have this like wonderful, you know, cohort and, and do all that. 333 00:21:49,064 --> 00:21:53,719 Can you tell, Tell us a little bit about the scale in which you work in. 334 00:21:54,019 --> 00:21:57,030 I mean, you have, by the way, everything you said is, you know, 335 00:21:57,030 --> 00:22:01,040 is great, is personalized, is ambitious, is customized, right? 336 00:22:01,389 --> 00:22:02,409 But at what scale? 337 00:22:02,429 --> 00:22:04,209 Are we talking about like 30 students? 338 00:22:04,210 --> 00:22:05,999 Are we talking about 50 students? 339 00:22:06,029 --> 00:22:06,899 What are we talking about? 340 00:22:08,619 --> 00:22:10,070 We're talking about a lot of students. 341 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,179 So our, our classes are capped at 27. 342 00:22:14,889 --> 00:22:20,509 Students right now are individual sections of our classes, but, um, UNIV 101 is, 343 00:22:20,689 --> 00:22:25,839 is, well, UNIV 101 and 301 are required for all students who are admitted as 344 00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:30,850 first year students to the University of Arizona, which is about 9, 000 students. 345 00:22:31,185 --> 00:22:34,165 Each fall, um, plus a few spring admits. 346 00:22:34,245 --> 00:22:38,885 And now, you know, also with Arizona online, we have, um, you know, much 347 00:22:38,885 --> 00:22:41,004 smaller, but still a population there. 348 00:22:41,584 --> 00:22:45,105 Um, so scaling it was a challenge. 349 00:22:45,135 --> 00:22:51,385 I mean, we, we piloted UNIV 101 with 14 sections in the spring of 22 and 350 00:22:51,415 --> 00:22:54,495 had to scale it to like 340 sections. 351 00:22:54,780 --> 00:22:56,440 in the space of four months. 352 00:22:56,989 --> 00:23:01,500 Um, and so it's, it's a, it's a, it's a big lift, right? 353 00:23:01,530 --> 00:23:05,389 And so, and three, you know, you know, 301 is probably, I don't 354 00:23:05,389 --> 00:23:09,810 know, Devon, maybe a year away from being at full, kind of full growth. 355 00:23:09,850 --> 00:23:16,509 And so we're, we're talking about 7 to 800 sections of... 356 00:23:16,509 --> 00:23:24,830 between the two classes a year, um, and at 27 students a section, if you've 357 00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:28,319 got some good quantitative reasoning skills, you can figure out it's a lot of 358 00:23:28,319 --> 00:23:30,310 sections, and it's a lot of instructors. 359 00:23:30,850 --> 00:23:34,370 Um, it's a lot of classroom space for, you know, one on one, which is in person. 360 00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:36,179 Um, it's a lot of grading. 361 00:23:36,209 --> 00:23:43,575 So, um, the scaling has been really big, um, but it can happen. 362 00:23:43,625 --> 00:23:47,814 And we've heard the same thing, like, oh, it's, it, it can't, you can't do something 363 00:23:47,814 --> 00:23:49,835 like that at an institution this size. 364 00:23:49,905 --> 00:23:53,474 Well, you can if it's an institutional priority, right? 365 00:23:55,074 --> 00:24:00,110 So I want people who are listening to realize how how 366 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:02,270 crazy this, these numbers are. 367 00:24:02,570 --> 00:24:06,450 So we're talking about, it's not, we're not trying to like do this with, you 368 00:24:06,450 --> 00:24:09,710 know, like 12 students in a class and that luxurious, you know, classroom. 369 00:24:09,949 --> 00:24:15,399 We're talking about, you know, like 9, 000 students a year coming through. 370 00:24:15,540 --> 00:24:16,890 Every single year. 371 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,910 So every single year you get 9, 000 fresh new students going through this process. 372 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,839 So that's, and that's in 101. 373 00:24:25,869 --> 00:24:33,449 And so then you've got, you know, now six to seven a year who are going through 301. 374 00:24:34,229 --> 00:24:38,449 So, so we're talking, you know, well north of 15, 000 students a 375 00:24:38,449 --> 00:24:45,439 year go through The courses that you both direct and this is by all 376 00:24:45,439 --> 00:24:47,590 means, it's, it's a huge team effort. 377 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,270 There's a lot of faculty members, a lot of, a lot of different folks, um, in it. 378 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:59,670 And in fact, I remember, um, seeing the, um, uh, You know, General Education 379 00:24:59,679 --> 00:25:02,240 webpage at University of Arizona. 380 00:25:02,660 --> 00:25:08,890 And there are like, I mean, the staff is like a huge list, um, you know, 381 00:25:08,890 --> 00:25:11,070 just to just include everyone in there. 382 00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:11,490 Right. 383 00:25:11,829 --> 00:25:14,110 Um, there's, uh, there are many professors. 384 00:25:14,110 --> 00:25:15,320 There are many assistants. 385 00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:19,520 There are, there are, there are, there are a lot of people that, that make this work, 386 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:25,520 but you only can make it work because it's a priority for the institution. 387 00:25:25,670 --> 00:25:26,660 So tell me about. 388 00:25:27,274 --> 00:25:32,864 I'll tell all of us about why, like, how did that happen at University of Arizona? 389 00:25:33,274 --> 00:25:34,284 General Education. 390 00:25:34,814 --> 00:25:39,364 In some schools, it's always been called General Education. 391 00:25:39,364 --> 00:25:41,685 In some schools, it's Liberal Arts studies. 392 00:25:41,695 --> 00:25:44,909 Sometimes they're called, you know, something else. 393 00:25:44,909 --> 00:25:47,395 Um, foundational programs or skills, you know. 394 00:25:47,495 --> 00:25:51,365 There's all kinds of, you know, ways that people, different schools call it. 395 00:25:51,974 --> 00:25:58,746 Um, I believe that you've had a General Education program for a long time. 396 00:25:58,746 --> 00:26:05,030 But you, uh, Like you said, in 2022 started rolling out a new version of it. 397 00:26:05,450 --> 00:26:07,230 I mean, this is a huge undertaking, right? 398 00:26:07,270 --> 00:26:10,600 This is not a, this is one of those things that people think. 399 00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:14,629 And I want to dismiss some myths, like college are doing the 400 00:26:14,629 --> 00:26:15,790 same thing over and over again. 401 00:26:16,090 --> 00:26:21,110 Well, they, I guess it depends on the scale and the, and the time 402 00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:22,400 timeline you're talking about. 403 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,700 Sometimes they do the same things, but when, and they, 404 00:26:25,790 --> 00:26:27,350 they're not sitting still either. 405 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,180 Um, and when something work, they do it for a while and then they, when 406 00:26:32,180 --> 00:26:35,330 they realize that something needs to be changed, they actually make changes. 407 00:26:36,250 --> 00:26:41,660 And, and this is a great example of an institution of your size, being able 408 00:26:41,660 --> 00:26:45,410 to just go, we're gonna pick up this entire General Education program that's 409 00:26:45,410 --> 00:26:48,800 been in existence for many years and we're gonna revamp the whole thing. 410 00:26:49,395 --> 00:26:49,785 Right? 411 00:26:50,175 --> 00:26:51,445 Can you tell us a little bit about that? 412 00:26:51,445 --> 00:26:53,485 It must be, must be quite an effort. 413 00:26:53,485 --> 00:26:56,458 I look it up. 414 00:26:56,458 --> 00:26:59,954 Too many, too many. 415 00:26:59,955 --> 00:27:00,575 I know. 416 00:27:00,745 --> 00:27:02,305 It brings up a lot of memories. 417 00:27:03,635 --> 00:27:08,970 I think, I think the most important thing for me to always keep in mind Um, 418 00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:17,789 when I talk about the General Education refresh, is that it was done very 419 00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:23,290 intentionally and in, and in many ways done in response to student feedback. 420 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:28,829 And I think that is really important because one of the values of our office of 421 00:27:28,829 --> 00:27:34,000 General Education is really, um, focusing on the student experience and student 422 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,310 autonomy and, um, and what we learned. 423 00:27:38,060 --> 00:27:43,810 from talking to students is that they, not surprisingly, didn't understand the 424 00:27:43,810 --> 00:27:47,839 purpose of General Education, didn't understand why they had to do it, what 425 00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:53,740 they were learning, what they had learned, and we really wanted the new program 426 00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:56,869 to respond to those concerns, right? 427 00:27:56,869 --> 00:28:00,630 We also wanted to respond to, you know, our Board of Regents, and we 428 00:28:00,630 --> 00:28:04,570 wanted to respond to other external constituents, but, like, we want to 429 00:28:04,570 --> 00:28:10,125 respond to these student issues that were being raised that, um, the students 430 00:28:10,125 --> 00:28:14,085 weren't finding value in it, and one of the reasons why students weren't 431 00:28:14,085 --> 00:28:18,315 finding value in it is because they were focused on content acquisition, right? 432 00:28:18,784 --> 00:28:24,334 They were focusing on learning about zombies, and the fact that learning about 433 00:28:24,335 --> 00:28:30,685 zombies is not practical information and making this mindset shift and 434 00:28:30,685 --> 00:28:35,155 cultural shift at the institution from content to perspective taking, right? 435 00:28:35,165 --> 00:28:40,274 That like, through learning about zombies, you develop an entirely new perspective 436 00:28:40,294 --> 00:28:47,710 on history, on literature, on um, on the ways that that human storytelling 437 00:28:47,710 --> 00:28:53,500 happens, like that perspective is the value of General Education as much or more 438 00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:55,990 so as learning the thing about zombies. 439 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,600 Um, but that also you have to, you have to invest time and effort 440 00:29:01,630 --> 00:29:03,109 in making meaning of it, right? 441 00:29:03,140 --> 00:29:07,360 So students engage in a lot of reflection in these classes because that's the 442 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,679 process by which students make meaning of what they're learning, right? 443 00:29:11,690 --> 00:29:15,449 That they, they have to think about what it is they experienced and 444 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,569 how that relates to other things that they've learned and how 445 00:29:18,569 --> 00:29:20,090 they can apply it in the future. 446 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,559 Um, because without that, the perspective taking doesn't, doesn't really happen and 447 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,379 doesn't really have a whole lot of value. 448 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,090 Yeah. 449 00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:33,250 In addition to that, right, we, in responding to the student feedback, 450 00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:40,159 we also needed the faculty who are involved in teaching the bulk of the 451 00:29:40,169 --> 00:29:45,149 General Education courses, right, and, and designing, you know, informing the 452 00:29:45,149 --> 00:29:48,810 curriculum and the kinds of classes that are included in our General Education 453 00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:51,649 to be invested in that process as well. 454 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,620 And one thing that. 455 00:29:54,340 --> 00:29:59,150 You know, I, I feel is absolutely true for faculty and instructors who's, 456 00:29:59,270 --> 00:30:04,000 like, the ones that teach our General Education are some of our best faculty and 457 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,020 instructors on this campus by far, right? 458 00:30:06,030 --> 00:30:10,360 Like, they have the enthusiasm, the expertise, and the experience with 459 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,940 teaching students, and they bring that to the classroom, and we're proud 460 00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:18,850 to getting them bought in on this new way of teaching and thinking. 461 00:30:18,860 --> 00:30:23,120 Many of them were already doing this already, so it was a way to acknowledge 462 00:30:23,130 --> 00:30:26,820 their work and to center effective teaching and learning in our General 463 00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:30,750 Education curriculum that was maybe previously under recognized, right? 464 00:30:31,239 --> 00:30:36,290 Um, and one of the benefits now that we're starting to see that we've been 465 00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:42,065 facilitating, uh, these two Bookend courses is that then many of our faculty 466 00:30:42,065 --> 00:30:47,365 and instructors who teach 101 or to teach 301 also teach General Education 467 00:30:47,365 --> 00:30:51,295 classes and then students are taking their classes with them and they're 468 00:30:51,295 --> 00:30:56,425 reading about, Oh, like I took this class with this person and they're 469 00:30:56,715 --> 00:30:58,504 the author for my reading this week. 470 00:30:58,514 --> 00:31:03,375 And then that faculty member is also connected to a network of professionals 471 00:31:03,375 --> 00:31:07,225 and instructors and faculty from all across campus to share in their 472 00:31:07,225 --> 00:31:09,024 teaching and and their pedagogy. 473 00:31:09,525 --> 00:31:14,635 And then that informs how they then show up in their other classes, 474 00:31:14,675 --> 00:31:18,385 their General Education classes or major or disciplinary areas. 475 00:31:18,385 --> 00:31:21,414 So, it's taken a long time, right? 476 00:31:21,415 --> 00:31:24,194 Like that kind of culture shift doesn't just happen when you 477 00:31:24,205 --> 00:31:25,824 launch a new program, right? 478 00:31:26,565 --> 00:31:30,580 But it takes a couple years because then, We get more folks 479 00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:32,340 who are teaching the classes. 480 00:31:32,380 --> 00:31:34,680 We have more students who are taking the classes. 481 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,430 And so then they also are starting to hear about it. 482 00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:37,730 Right. 483 00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:41,240 And it becomes a little bit more of like, this is what we do. 484 00:31:41,260 --> 00:31:43,360 We, we engage in reflection. 485 00:31:43,370 --> 00:31:47,910 We take our Gen Eds and we, you know, have an understanding of what, what I 486 00:31:47,910 --> 00:31:49,950 can get out of it and how that connects. 487 00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:54,590 Um, so it's a large effort to get it going, but then actually 488 00:31:54,610 --> 00:31:59,040 to sustain the work and make it meaningful requires an ongoing. 489 00:31:59,475 --> 00:32:03,675 Uh, faculty and instructional community, uh, to, to sustain 490 00:32:03,675 --> 00:32:05,095 that work and to make it real. 491 00:32:06,545 --> 00:32:10,145 Here's a preview of what's coming up next in part two of my conversation 492 00:32:10,165 --> 00:32:14,115 with Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas Murray from University of Arizona. 493 00:32:14,915 --> 00:32:19,955 Yes, is there something about being human that makes reflection somewhat natural? 494 00:32:20,355 --> 00:32:20,855 Perhaps. 495 00:32:20,965 --> 00:32:22,445 But it's a skill, right? 496 00:32:22,475 --> 00:32:24,585 It's like any other skill. 497 00:32:24,755 --> 00:32:28,375 The more you do it, the more intentional you are, the more practice you have. 498 00:32:28,980 --> 00:32:29,610 The better you get.