WEBVTT 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:06.285 Matt Abrahams: When it comes to communication and life, big 00:00:06.285 --> 00:00:08.295 things come from small things. 00:00:08.655 --> 00:00:11.955 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:11.955 --> 00:00:13.665 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:14.055 --> 00:00:17.295 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:17.895 --> 00:00:19.845 Today I look forward to speaking with Eric Zimmer. 00:00:20.205 --> 00:00:23.775 Eric overcame personal battles with homelessness and heroin 00:00:23.775 --> 00:00:24.930 addiction at the age of 24. 00:00:25.685 --> 00:00:28.355 And then had a very successful career in high tech. 00:00:28.775 --> 00:00:31.715 He later became a behavior coach and an award-winning podcaster 00:00:31.715 --> 00:00:33.845 with his show, The One You Feed. 00:00:34.265 --> 00:00:38.644 Eric has spent over 20 years studying human transformation and habit formation. 00:00:39.095 --> 00:00:42.995 His latest book is called How A Little Becomes A Lot: The Art of Small 00:00:42.995 --> 00:00:45.125 Changes for a More Meaningful Life. 00:00:45.905 --> 00:00:46.925 Well, welcome Eric. 00:00:46.925 --> 00:00:48.004 Thank you for being here. 00:00:48.004 --> 00:00:49.715 I'm excited to learn from you today. 00:00:50.075 --> 00:00:50.525 Eric Zimmer: Hi, Matt. 00:00:50.525 --> 00:00:52.565 I really appreciate you having me. 00:00:52.565 --> 00:00:53.915 I'm excited to be here also. 00:00:54.185 --> 00:00:54.965 Matt Abrahams: Should we get started? 00:00:55.305 --> 00:00:55.904 Eric Zimmer: Please. 00:00:56.175 --> 00:00:59.535 Matt Abrahams: Alright, let's start with your personal story. 00:00:59.595 --> 00:01:04.065 Can you share how your journey from addiction to sobriety has really helped 00:01:04.065 --> 00:01:06.705 form who you are and informs what you do? 00:01:07.245 --> 00:01:07.455 Eric Zimmer: Yeah. 00:01:07.455 --> 00:01:12.180 It would be almost impossible for me to imagine what I would be like without it. 00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:15.120 At 24, I was a homeless heroin addict. 00:01:15.390 --> 00:01:16.710 I weighed a hundred pounds. 00:01:16.710 --> 00:01:22.470 I had Hepatitis C. I was looking at going to jail for upwards of 50 years, and I 00:01:22.470 --> 00:01:25.020 was fortunate to get sober at that age. 00:01:25.470 --> 00:01:30.780 And what I learned through that process is just so deeply embedded in the 00:01:30.780 --> 00:01:36.225 way that I view the world that, as I said, I can't imagine a different 00:01:36.375 --> 00:01:37.785 way of viewing the world, right? 00:01:37.785 --> 00:01:42.075 We just get to a point where we all see the world the way we see it, and that's 00:01:42.075 --> 00:01:44.775 a pretty embedded part of my story. 00:01:44.865 --> 00:01:48.825 And so I learned a lot through all of that, as you might imagine. 00:01:48.914 --> 00:01:54.104 And it turns out that a lot of that is relevant not just to people 00:01:54.104 --> 00:01:59.125 facing serious, a life threatening addiction, but to life in general. 00:01:59.125 --> 00:02:03.925 And we live in a more and more addictive culture in so many different ways today. 00:02:04.195 --> 00:02:05.965 That's the start of things for me. 00:02:06.600 --> 00:02:07.140 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:02:07.199 --> 00:02:08.070 Thank you for that. 00:02:08.549 --> 00:02:11.700 You often leverage the two wolves parable. 00:02:12.090 --> 00:02:15.390 Can you share with us what this story is and the lesson you'd like 00:02:15.390 --> 00:02:17.400 all of us to take from the story? 00:02:17.820 --> 00:02:18.299 Eric Zimmer: Sure. 00:02:18.299 --> 00:02:23.519 Many of your listeners may have heard it before, but it's a story that says we all 00:02:23.519 --> 00:02:27.799 have these two wolves inside of us that are always at battle with each other. 00:02:27.799 --> 00:02:32.210 One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. 00:02:32.660 --> 00:02:35.000 And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:36.830 greed and hatred and fear. 00:02:36.860 --> 00:02:40.220 And the grandparent is telling this story to their grandson. 00:02:40.220 --> 00:02:42.590 They say, we have these wolves inside of us, and the grandson 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:44.570 wonders which wolf wins. 00:02:44.600 --> 00:02:47.275 And the grandparent says, the one you feed. 00:02:48.030 --> 00:02:52.260 So the great thing about a parable like that is the minute I say it, you get it. 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:54.960 On one level, you're like, oh, I see. 00:02:55.140 --> 00:02:58.110 There are choices that I make that encourage the better parts of me. 00:02:58.290 --> 00:03:02.520 There are choices that I make that encourage the less good parts of myself. 00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:03.820 Which do I want to do? 00:03:04.575 --> 00:03:08.625 What I love about the story, particularly though, is I think it points to a 00:03:08.625 --> 00:03:13.005 deep truth, which is that we are motivationally complex creatures. 00:03:13.365 --> 00:03:15.915 We want many different things. 00:03:16.005 --> 00:03:19.455 We value different things, and these things are often 00:03:19.455 --> 00:03:20.835 in conflict with each other. 00:03:21.045 --> 00:03:24.285 Two wolves is almost an oversimplification for it, right? 00:03:24.555 --> 00:03:27.795 But it speaks to the fact that we all intimately know 00:03:27.795 --> 00:03:30.585 that feeling of being pulled. 00:03:30.935 --> 00:03:33.364 You know, I wanna do this, but I also wanna do that. 00:03:33.364 --> 00:03:35.315 I value this, but I wanna do that, right? 00:03:35.315 --> 00:03:39.965 That feeling of being pulled is part of being human and it doesn't go away. 00:03:40.265 --> 00:03:42.305 It's what we do with it. 00:03:42.454 --> 00:03:46.595 And by recognizing that we are motivationally complex and recognizing 00:03:46.595 --> 00:03:50.644 that we are always making choices, that we're able to make better ones. 00:03:51.274 --> 00:03:54.515 Matt Abrahams: It's a a very powerful story for sure, and I appreciate the 00:03:54.515 --> 00:03:58.510 awareness that it brings to us, that at any moment we have choices to make. 00:03:59.250 --> 00:04:03.630 And by making that conscious aware, we can have some control. 00:04:04.260 --> 00:04:06.510 As you well know, we focus on communication. 00:04:06.540 --> 00:04:09.540 I'm curious, have you in your own life, or have you coached others or 00:04:09.540 --> 00:04:15.029 seen others who have made conscious choices to feed some value or some 00:04:15.119 --> 00:04:18.659 action to help them be better in their communication versus others? 00:04:18.774 --> 00:04:22.320 I can imagine finding myself in a conflict situation or a negotiation 00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:27.609 situation where I might react in one way, but really should be reacting or 00:04:27.609 --> 00:04:29.349 want to be reacting in another way. 00:04:29.349 --> 00:04:32.710 I'm curious your experience of how this applies in communication. 00:04:33.370 --> 00:04:37.900 Eric Zimmer: I think that one of the core skills that underlies 00:04:38.140 --> 00:04:43.299 all the work that I do, and also underlies communication, is awareness. 00:04:43.810 --> 00:04:50.080 It's the ability to be able to pause, see what's happening inside of us, see 00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:54.975 what's happening around us, and then think, what choice do I want to make? 00:04:54.975 --> 00:04:56.595 What do I want to do here? 00:04:56.745 --> 00:05:01.485 We often operate on autopilot to a great degree and autopilot's a lovely thing. 00:05:01.485 --> 00:05:02.175 In many ways. 00:05:02.175 --> 00:05:05.505 It's great that as humans, we can drive home while I think about something, 00:05:05.505 --> 00:05:07.035 great, that's a good use of it. 00:05:07.425 --> 00:05:12.285 But when autopilot is operating, and it often does in communication, that's 00:05:12.285 --> 00:05:14.055 not the time we want it to work. 00:05:14.055 --> 00:05:18.285 We want our communication to be thoughtful and conscious, and so building 00:05:18.285 --> 00:05:19.995 the awareness, what am I thinking? 00:05:19.995 --> 00:05:25.455 What am I feeling, right now, is a core skill that underlies everything that I do. 00:05:25.965 --> 00:05:29.535 Matt Abrahams: How did you train yourself to find that awareness? 00:05:29.535 --> 00:05:32.835 You know, many of us are so busy or we have so much 00:05:32.835 --> 00:05:34.725 information coming at us at once. 00:05:35.055 --> 00:05:36.375 How did you learn to do that? 00:05:36.375 --> 00:05:39.885 It's a valuable skill, but one that can be challenging for many. 00:05:40.469 --> 00:05:43.859 Eric Zimmer: My book is called How A Little Becomes A Lot: The Art of Small 00:05:43.859 --> 00:05:45.390 Changes for a More Meaningful Life. 00:05:45.390 --> 00:05:49.380 So you'll recognize that my answer is you don't get it all at once. 00:05:49.380 --> 00:05:50.849 You get it a little bit at a time. 00:05:50.849 --> 00:05:55.094 And in the book I have something that I think is unique to what I do, which 00:05:55.094 --> 00:06:01.425 is it's a method for working with and changing our habitual thought patterns. 00:06:01.605 --> 00:06:05.535 There's a lot of information out there about what to think. 00:06:05.625 --> 00:06:10.095 Think this, don't think that, take this perspective, don't take that perspective. 00:06:10.425 --> 00:06:13.455 But there's very little about how do you actually do that? 00:06:13.545 --> 00:06:18.375 And the way that you have to do it is by frequent repetition. 00:06:18.870 --> 00:06:21.900 So I have something I call still points, and a still point is just 00:06:21.900 --> 00:06:24.300 something that we engineer into our day. 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:28.110 So imagine a still point being a when and a then. 00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:32.400 The when could be like every time I go to the bathroom, my then 00:06:32.550 --> 00:06:35.640 could be, I ask myself what am I thinking and feeling right now? 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:40.530 If you go to the bathroom five times a day, you just take that 00:06:40.530 --> 00:06:41.700 time and go, what am I thinking? 00:06:41.700 --> 00:06:42.360 What am I feeling? 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:43.920 I check in, no big deal. 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:48.540 Any one of them on their own, so what doesn't matter, but a lot of them done 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:53.070 consistently, over time in the same direction, you'll become more aware. 00:06:53.070 --> 00:06:57.395 You'll find yourself naturally being more aware because you've woven 00:06:57.395 --> 00:06:58.955 it into the fabric of your day. 00:06:59.075 --> 00:07:03.095 And it's a lot more likely that at dinner that evening when you're having 00:07:03.095 --> 00:07:06.755 a conversation with your spouse, that you're gonna recognize what's happening 00:07:06.755 --> 00:07:10.595 inside of you if you just reflected on it four times earlier today. 00:07:10.985 --> 00:07:15.605 So that's the mechanism, particularly with these thought patterns, or something 00:07:15.620 --> 00:07:18.335 like being aware, that we can train it. 00:07:19.055 --> 00:07:23.225 Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of training our awareness and the when 00:07:23.225 --> 00:07:25.685 then paradigm is really useful. 00:07:26.225 --> 00:07:31.955 I wanna talk about the knowing doing gap that you discuss, and I'm curious 00:07:31.955 --> 00:07:36.965 to learn more about what is this framework and how does it help us 00:07:36.965 --> 00:07:39.875 show up well in all our situations. 00:07:40.395 --> 00:07:44.805 Eric Zimmer: I think we all have some aspects of our lives in which we 00:07:44.955 --> 00:07:46.815 want to be doing something different. 00:07:47.025 --> 00:07:50.085 We may even know exactly what we want to do different. 00:07:50.085 --> 00:07:51.765 We may even know how to do it. 00:07:51.885 --> 00:07:54.015 We just find ourselves not doing it. 00:07:54.284 --> 00:07:55.245 It could be eating. 00:07:55.245 --> 00:07:57.465 It could be exercise, it could be meditation. 00:07:57.465 --> 00:08:01.395 It could be conversations with our partner, whether at work or at home. 00:08:01.755 --> 00:08:02.710 So there's this gap. 00:08:03.295 --> 00:08:08.275 And the book is really a response to how do we bridge that gap? 00:08:08.275 --> 00:08:12.355 And I can't put it all into a single sentence, but the little by little 00:08:12.355 --> 00:08:14.275 approach is at the heart of it. 00:08:14.485 --> 00:08:17.155 And by little, by little I mean something specific. 00:08:17.155 --> 00:08:20.845 I mean low resistance actions, meaning something you'll actually do, 00:08:21.370 --> 00:08:25.750 done consistently over time, again and again, in the same direction. 00:08:26.080 --> 00:08:29.620 We often are trying to fix four or five different things at any one 00:08:29.620 --> 00:08:31.030 given time in our lives, right? 00:08:31.030 --> 00:08:33.370 And so we're doing a little of this, a little of that, 00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:34.390 and it's all over the place. 00:08:34.390 --> 00:08:39.730 But when we take small things that we do consistently, in the same direction, 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.760 we bridge that knowledge to action gap. 00:08:43.130 --> 00:08:45.560 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so we have knowledge and then how do we 00:08:45.560 --> 00:08:47.240 get that knowledge into action? 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:50.630 And by doing so, first is awareness, and then finding the 00:08:50.630 --> 00:08:52.070 little things that we can do. 00:08:52.400 --> 00:08:53.990 And I know you have a great acronym for this. 00:08:53.990 --> 00:08:56.240 I'm gonna ask you about it because many people listening 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:57.710 know that I, I'm a martial artist. 00:08:58.040 --> 00:09:00.410 As part of my training, I spar with people. 00:09:00.470 --> 00:09:04.070 You learn a lot and you get a lot of instantaneous feedback when 00:09:04.070 --> 00:09:05.990 you are in a ring with somebody. 00:09:06.230 --> 00:09:10.780 And you use the acronym SPAR as a way to help us get at the core 00:09:10.780 --> 00:09:11.950 of what you're talking about. 00:09:11.950 --> 00:09:17.410 Can you break down what SPAR means and can you apply it to an example related 00:09:17.410 --> 00:09:22.060 to communication so that we can maybe use it directly and help ourselves? 00:09:22.420 --> 00:09:27.610 Eric Zimmer: So I wanna start by saying I think that there are two competencies we 00:09:27.610 --> 00:09:29.770 have to get in order to change something. 00:09:29.980 --> 00:09:31.660 The first I will call structural. 00:09:31.900 --> 00:09:34.180 This is what SPAR focuses on. 00:09:34.565 --> 00:09:35.885 It's really about planning. 00:09:36.245 --> 00:09:38.255 The second is an inner component. 00:09:38.585 --> 00:09:43.655 So the inner component is you might know exactly what to do, you might remember 00:09:43.655 --> 00:09:48.695 to do it, and then you don't do it, in the moment, and that is usually some 00:09:48.695 --> 00:09:50.765 sort of inner emotional type thing. 00:09:50.765 --> 00:09:57.065 So SPAR is all the structural, and so it stands for, S is for specificity. 00:09:57.335 --> 00:09:58.475 What am I doing? 00:09:58.875 --> 00:09:59.895 Where am I doing it? 00:09:59.895 --> 00:10:01.155 How am I doing it? 00:10:01.485 --> 00:10:02.895 So let's take communication. 00:10:03.194 --> 00:10:07.005 It's one thing to say like, well, I want to communicate better with my children. 00:10:07.245 --> 00:10:09.435 Okay, what does that mean? 00:10:09.704 --> 00:10:13.665 Oh, I want to make sure I have 10 minutes a day that I talk to 00:10:13.665 --> 00:10:16.214 them, and I really, really listen. 00:10:16.365 --> 00:10:17.865 That's some degree of specificity. 00:10:17.865 --> 00:10:19.935 Now, I would take it further and be like, well, when is that 00:10:19.935 --> 00:10:21.045 10 minutes going to happen? 00:10:21.314 --> 00:10:25.465 Because while we're trying to build a new behavior, ambiguity is always the enemy. 00:10:25.615 --> 00:10:28.495 We wanna have all our energy go to doing the thing. 00:10:28.795 --> 00:10:30.085 So specificity. 00:10:30.355 --> 00:10:31.825 The P stands for prompts. 00:10:31.885 --> 00:10:33.085 How do I remember? 00:10:33.295 --> 00:10:38.695 So I'm gonna spend at dinner every night, I'm gonna ask my children a question 00:10:38.725 --> 00:10:42.265 about their day that's thoughtful and I'm gonna share something from my day. 00:10:42.625 --> 00:10:43.825 How do I remember to do it? 00:10:43.825 --> 00:10:47.935 Maybe I just need a little thing that I set down next to my dinner plate 00:10:47.935 --> 00:10:52.555 that says, like, remember to ask X. It sounds silly, but we're so busy. 00:10:52.555 --> 00:10:54.265 Our brains are full of so much stuff. 00:10:54.505 --> 00:10:56.064 We frequently just forget. 00:10:56.125 --> 00:10:57.400 So P stands for prompts. 00:10:58.185 --> 00:10:59.865 A stands for alignment. 00:11:00.165 --> 00:11:04.125 And one of the things, if we asked all behavior scientists in the world to come 00:11:04.125 --> 00:11:07.725 together and agree on one thing, it would be hard to do, but I think the thing they 00:11:07.725 --> 00:11:13.215 would say is, don't rely on willpower or discipline any more than you have to. 00:11:13.515 --> 00:11:16.965 Set up your environment to make it likely you do it. 00:11:17.175 --> 00:11:18.765 So alignment is about doing that. 00:11:18.765 --> 00:11:20.655 So what's an example for communication? 00:11:20.925 --> 00:11:23.565 Part of our environment is other people. 00:11:23.925 --> 00:11:28.605 So I might, if I have a spouse, I might say, can you help me remember? 00:11:28.815 --> 00:11:30.255 That's setting up my alignment. 00:11:30.525 --> 00:11:33.555 Or saying to them ahead of time, this is something I wanna do every evening, 00:11:33.555 --> 00:11:34.995 would you support me in doing it? 00:11:35.235 --> 00:11:35.835 Alignment. 00:11:36.105 --> 00:11:41.295 And then finally, R stands for resilience, which basically means planning for what 00:11:41.325 --> 00:11:43.635 is going to go wrong or could go wrong. 00:11:43.905 --> 00:11:45.585 So what am I going to do? 00:11:45.959 --> 00:11:49.410 If I'm not at home for dinner, is there still a way that I could 00:11:49.410 --> 00:11:52.350 have that conversation that I want to have with my kids each day? 00:11:52.589 --> 00:11:53.400 Maybe there is. 00:11:53.579 --> 00:11:55.469 Maybe I say, oh, if I don't make it home for dinner, I'll 00:11:55.469 --> 00:11:56.699 do it with them before bed. 00:11:57.060 --> 00:12:01.230 Or if I'm traveling, maybe I'll send them a text where I ask them the question. 00:12:01.560 --> 00:12:06.060 And so SPAR allows us to get everything set up and have clear 00:12:06.060 --> 00:12:09.569 plans for what we're going to do, how we're going to do it, what we're 00:12:09.675 --> 00:12:11.115 gonna do when we're unable to do it. 00:12:11.670 --> 00:12:14.820 Then we can put all our attention into the actual doing. 00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:17.640 So that's SPAR with an idea around communication. 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:18.840 Matt Abrahams: I love it. 00:12:18.870 --> 00:12:22.680 It sets us up for success and it makes us more thoughtful and 00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:24.750 intentional in what we're doing. 00:12:24.990 --> 00:12:28.290 So many of us could just be frustrated that we don't have the connection with 00:12:28.290 --> 00:12:30.450 our kids that we want to, for example. 00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:35.010 And this becomes a very clear action plan that is likely to succeed. 00:12:35.010 --> 00:12:38.100 One, because it's defined, and two, because we align it 00:12:38.130 --> 00:12:40.650 with others and our situation. 00:12:40.650 --> 00:12:43.950 And I really like the resilience point, which is in some 00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:45.540 ways contingency planning. 00:12:45.810 --> 00:12:48.060 What do I do if I can't execute on this? 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.260 So specific, have prompts, alignment, and resilience. 00:12:52.260 --> 00:12:52.860 Thank you. 00:12:53.160 --> 00:12:55.530 And you said that this is one part of the equation. 00:12:55.530 --> 00:12:57.240 This is the framework side. 00:12:57.510 --> 00:13:00.780 The internal motivation side, talk to me a little bit about that. 00:13:00.870 --> 00:13:03.480 You know, I can have the desire but not the will. 00:13:03.780 --> 00:13:05.910 Curious, how do we get that motivation? 00:13:06.525 --> 00:13:11.415 Eric Zimmer: I don't love to talk about motivation a ton because it's a 00:13:11.415 --> 00:13:14.175 feeling and feelings just come and go. 00:13:14.175 --> 00:13:15.015 They change. 00:13:15.435 --> 00:13:20.055 Now, I do think it's important that we're clear on why something matters to us. 00:13:20.190 --> 00:13:25.020 So, if we're going to say, I'm going to do X, Y, or Z, why does it matter? 00:13:25.020 --> 00:13:27.990 We wanna get to the heart of that and we wanna understand it emotionally. 00:13:28.260 --> 00:13:32.370 But waiting to be motivated is often a trap because you don't have 00:13:32.370 --> 00:13:33.900 to be motivated to do something. 00:13:33.930 --> 00:13:38.339 I exercise many, many days when I am very far from motivated. 00:13:38.910 --> 00:13:43.020 I do not feel like doing it at all, and yet I do it. 00:13:43.140 --> 00:13:46.500 So the emotional side is, let's stick with the example we've got. 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:51.720 You are there and you want to ask the question, but your teenager tends to 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:55.440 be like, oh dad, you know, or they just don't really like to do it. 00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:59.250 And so you're like little tentative about wanting to do it. 00:13:59.250 --> 00:14:02.880 And so it's easy in the moment, okay, I should do it now, but I'm 00:14:02.880 --> 00:14:05.640 not going to do it 'cause it makes me a little bit uncomfortable. 00:14:05.905 --> 00:14:08.785 That's the emotional inner aspect of it. 00:14:09.235 --> 00:14:12.535 And what we don't need to do is solve all the discomfort. 00:14:12.775 --> 00:14:16.194 All we have to do is figure out, what is it that I need to do to get 00:14:16.194 --> 00:14:18.115 me over the hump in that moment? 00:14:18.265 --> 00:14:22.135 And that's what SPAR does, is it puts us at a choice point. 00:14:22.464 --> 00:14:27.385 And at a choice point, we either act the way we want or the way we didn't want to. 00:14:27.655 --> 00:14:31.615 If we didn't do what we wanted to do, we can zero in right in on that moment. 00:14:31.824 --> 00:14:33.180 What was I saying to myself? 00:14:33.885 --> 00:14:37.964 So I identify in the book what I call the six saboteurs of self-control. 00:14:38.354 --> 00:14:42.045 One saboteur of self-control is the insignificance trap. 00:14:42.555 --> 00:14:47.564 It means that we don't connect the dots between the little things 00:14:47.564 --> 00:14:49.995 we do today with the big picture. 00:14:50.114 --> 00:14:53.175 So it's very easy to be like, ah, I'm just not gonna do it tonight. 00:14:53.175 --> 00:14:54.435 I mean, what does it really matter? 00:14:54.435 --> 00:14:55.665 One night's not a big deal. 00:14:55.665 --> 00:15:00.015 'Cause we emotionally don't wanna do it 'cause it's a little uncomfortable for us. 00:15:00.194 --> 00:15:02.535 If we're in that, we need to say to ourselves, wait. 00:15:02.925 --> 00:15:06.585 Every chance to connect with my child is important to me, and I know it's 00:15:06.585 --> 00:15:08.235 gonna be slightly uncomfortable. 00:15:08.385 --> 00:15:13.095 I also know that this is very aligned with what I value, and 00:15:13.095 --> 00:15:14.715 so I'm gonna be uncomfortable. 00:15:14.775 --> 00:15:15.555 I can still do it. 00:15:15.555 --> 00:15:19.785 That's an example of just taking that moment and rescripting what 00:15:19.785 --> 00:15:21.525 it is we're saying to ourselves. 00:15:21.705 --> 00:15:25.455 So if we can identify what is it that's getting in the way, we can learn to 00:15:25.455 --> 00:15:29.260 talk to ourselves and essentially coach ourselves to take the action. 00:15:30.105 --> 00:15:32.415 Matt Abrahams: That's a very powerful idea, the rescripting. 00:15:32.745 --> 00:15:36.315 And the rescripting comes from an awareness, and the awareness comes 00:15:36.315 --> 00:15:37.995 from the discomfort, you know? 00:15:37.995 --> 00:15:39.465 So it's a natural cascade. 00:15:39.465 --> 00:15:41.475 Where am I feeling uncomfortable? 00:15:41.475 --> 00:15:42.615 Where's the discomfort? 00:15:42.765 --> 00:15:44.415 What might be leading to it? 00:15:44.655 --> 00:15:49.280 And that requires us to self-reflect and to understand our values 00:15:49.755 --> 00:15:51.345 and how we're not aligned. 00:15:51.765 --> 00:15:54.495 And then from there, think about the rescripting. 00:15:55.560 --> 00:15:58.080 Eric, this has been a fantastic conversation. 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.740 So much of what you say is directly applicable and aligns with a lot 00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:03.120 of the things that I think about. 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:05.130 I'd love to wrap up as we always do. 00:16:05.190 --> 00:16:06.780 I ask three questions at the end. 00:16:06.780 --> 00:16:10.620 One I create just for you and the other two I've been asking all along. 00:16:10.650 --> 00:16:11.030 Are you up for that? 00:16:11.570 --> 00:16:12.200 Eric Zimmer: Yes. 00:16:12.530 --> 00:16:13.190 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:16:13.590 --> 00:16:15.020 You host a podcast. 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:15.470 Eric Zimmer: Yep. 00:16:15.770 --> 00:16:19.760 Matt Abrahams: Share with me something that's surprised you as you've done 00:16:19.760 --> 00:16:23.270 this, in terms of things you've learned or uncovered as a host 00:16:23.270 --> 00:16:24.860 or interacting with your guests. 00:16:25.160 --> 00:16:28.790 Eric Zimmer: It's very tempting when doing it to have someone on, I'm gonna 00:16:28.790 --> 00:16:32.150 have you on the show, for example, so it's gonna be very tempting to get you to 00:16:32.150 --> 00:16:36.410 say a lot of smart things that are gonna help our listeners, and that's important. 00:16:36.735 --> 00:16:41.505 I've also realized though, that a big part of communication is not 00:16:41.625 --> 00:16:44.415 exactly the things that you teach. 00:16:44.685 --> 00:16:50.565 It's the spirit in which you teach them and the way that you make people feel like 00:16:50.775 --> 00:16:53.595 you understand them, they understand you. 00:16:53.805 --> 00:16:58.035 And so I think for me it's been, I've recognized more that, yes, I wanna get the 00:16:58.035 --> 00:16:59.925 good ideas out of the people that come on. 00:17:00.495 --> 00:17:03.855 I also wanna create an environment where I connect with that 00:17:03.855 --> 00:17:05.355 person, they connect with me. 00:17:05.355 --> 00:17:11.385 We have a genuine conversation, and I'm also trying to, in a sense, think about my 00:17:11.385 --> 00:17:16.425 listener as I'm going, and think of them as that other part of that conversation, 00:17:16.784 --> 00:17:19.514 I think, is one of the things that I've just gotten better at over time. 00:17:20.340 --> 00:17:22.770 Matt Abrahams: It is an ever evolving skill, isn't it? 00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:27.750 I find the conversations wonderful, but I also find the learning that I have. 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:32.430 What I heard you say is it's really about connection beyond content. 00:17:32.610 --> 00:17:34.050 That's so true for me as well. 00:17:34.650 --> 00:17:36.900 I'll be curious to get your answer to our second question. 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.750 Who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:17:40.169 --> 00:17:42.300 Eric Zimmer: There are so many great communicators, but when 00:17:42.300 --> 00:17:46.705 I saw this question, I thought of someone named David Whyte. 00:17:46.935 --> 00:17:53.970 David Whyte is a poet and an essayist, and what I love about David Whyte is 00:17:54.030 --> 00:18:00.195 he is willing to be very spare with what he says and doesn't feel the need 00:18:00.195 --> 00:18:04.485 to overexplain it, which part of what poetry tends to do, it lays something 00:18:04.485 --> 00:18:06.794 out there and lets it work on you. 00:18:07.125 --> 00:18:10.725 David does that in essays, and I've interviewed him a few times for the show. 00:18:10.725 --> 00:18:16.274 He's incredibly articulate, incredibly smart, has a wonderful Irish accent, 00:18:16.274 --> 00:18:17.715 you could listen to him for days. 00:18:18.044 --> 00:18:24.885 It takes me a little while to downshift into David's pace, but when I do, I 00:18:24.885 --> 00:18:31.605 just feel like there is this sort of stunning luminosity to what he writes. 00:18:31.695 --> 00:18:38.025 And so he's an example of a type of communicator for me that 00:18:38.025 --> 00:18:41.055 shows how they pay attention. 00:18:41.055 --> 00:18:42.675 It's what I love about poets. 00:18:43.065 --> 00:18:46.575 They teach me how to pay attention to the world differently. 00:18:46.575 --> 00:18:51.105 They're observing the ordinary in a way that I'm generally not. 00:18:51.435 --> 00:18:57.285 So they are communicating, but they're also teaching me how to see, and David is 00:18:57.285 --> 00:18:58.740 one of the best examples of that to me. 00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:01.635 Matt Abrahams: How poetically put yourself. 00:19:01.635 --> 00:19:05.625 You've learned a lot from him and others, but a communicator you admire is one who 00:19:05.625 --> 00:19:07.185 teaches you how to see things differently. 00:19:07.185 --> 00:19:10.605 And I also heard in that they help you downshift, in this 00:19:10.605 --> 00:19:12.915 case to resonate at their level. 00:19:13.185 --> 00:19:17.685 And like you, I can be moving, at least mentally, in a frenetic pace, 00:19:17.745 --> 00:19:20.595 and some of the best communicators and best communication I've had 00:19:20.595 --> 00:19:22.395 is when I slow down and connect. 00:19:22.455 --> 00:19:23.115 So thank you. 00:19:23.545 --> 00:19:24.445 Final question. 00:19:24.505 --> 00:19:30.115 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:19:30.625 --> 00:19:31.795 Eric Zimmer: I think intention. 00:19:32.005 --> 00:19:34.135 What is important about this conversation? 00:19:34.225 --> 00:19:36.355 What do I want to happen in this conversation? 00:19:36.355 --> 00:19:38.005 What matters here? 00:19:38.095 --> 00:19:46.345 Is a really, for me, in conversations that are important, clarity is really useful. 00:19:46.345 --> 00:19:50.155 Kind of back to what we talked about with SPAR, then I think it's attention. 00:19:50.774 --> 00:19:53.504 We often think that good communication means all our 00:19:53.504 --> 00:19:55.125 attention is on the other person. 00:19:55.604 --> 00:19:56.534 I don't think that's true. 00:19:56.774 --> 00:20:01.335 I think that, yes, we have to be very focused on the other person, but I think 00:20:01.335 --> 00:20:07.215 a certain amount of attention has to be to what's going on inside of us as we're 00:20:07.215 --> 00:20:12.195 having the conversation, because otherwise we are always reacting internally. 00:20:12.375 --> 00:20:16.155 If we're not aware of it, if all our attention is out there, then 00:20:16.450 --> 00:20:19.150 everything's getting churned up back here and I don't know what it is. 00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:22.960 So I need to keep some part of my gaze what's going on inside 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:24.820 me so that I can work with it. 00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:28.960 So I think intention where I want the conversation to be in general, 00:20:29.110 --> 00:20:34.390 attention on me and the other person, and then, I think for me, 00:20:34.540 --> 00:20:36.340 there's always a pause element. 00:20:36.790 --> 00:20:41.260 There's always an element of slow down and pause. 00:20:42.030 --> 00:20:45.600 Matt Abrahams: So intention, directionality, attention, both 00:20:45.600 --> 00:20:50.010 externally and internally, and slowing down, being present, pausing. 00:20:50.699 --> 00:20:52.050 I completely agree. 00:20:52.139 --> 00:20:55.560 If those are in alignment, the communication is successful. 00:20:56.159 --> 00:21:01.020 Well, Eric, I appreciate all the insights that you have shared specifically 00:21:01.024 --> 00:21:06.360 around how we can change and align ourselves with our goals, how it's 00:21:06.600 --> 00:21:08.459 little things that lead to big things. 00:21:08.985 --> 00:21:10.425 And it's choices we make. 00:21:10.425 --> 00:21:11.385 What do we feed? 00:21:11.655 --> 00:21:13.185 How does it align with our values? 00:21:13.515 --> 00:21:16.305 Thank you so much, and best of luck with your new book and 00:21:16.305 --> 00:21:18.285 continued success with your podcast. 00:21:18.525 --> 00:21:19.305 Eric Zimmer: Thanks so much, Matt. 00:21:19.305 --> 00:21:19.995 It's been a pleasure. 00:21:22.245 --> 00:21:24.075 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:21:24.075 --> 00:21:26.355 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:26.595 --> 00:21:29.175 To learn more about behavior change and personal growth, please 00:21:29.175 --> 00:21:31.915 listen to episode 86 with BJ Fogg. 00:21:32.175 --> 00:21:36.825 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:37.185 --> 00:21:39.435 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:39.825 --> 00:21:42.645 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast. 00:21:43.095 --> 00:21:45.375 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:21:45.615 --> 00:21:48.465 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:21:48.885 --> 00:21:52.875 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:21:52.875 --> 00:21:54.915 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:21:55.215 --> 00:21:58.195 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:21:58.195 --> 00:22:00.295 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:22:00.945 --> 00:22:04.935 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, Matt's AI 00:22:04.935 --> 00:22:06.825 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:22:07.485 --> 00:22:12.615 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of the Think Fast 00:22:12.765 --> 00:22:14.355 Talk Smart Learning Community.