WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:07.020 Christian: Welcome to Design Meets Business, a show where design leaders talk 00:00:07.020 --> 00:00:11.610 about practical ways to quantify design, about making our work more transparent, 00:00:11.970 --> 00:00:15.180 and about how designers can make a bigger impact in their organization. 00:00:15.810 --> 00:00:19.380 I'm your host, Christian Vasile, and before we begin, I'd like to 00:00:19.380 --> 00:00:20.550 thank you for tuning in today.. 00:00:23.970 --> 00:00:27.330 Today, I'm talking to Ioana Teleanu, who is working as a UX manager at 00:00:27.330 --> 00:00:31.830 UI path, but it's more well known in the design world for her design 00:00:31.830 --> 00:00:36.540 academy mentor and for the content she posts under the handle UX goodies. 00:00:37.140 --> 00:00:40.830 This conversation is it's not so much about the content though, but more 00:00:40.830 --> 00:00:44.610 about the importance of speaking the language of our stakeholders, how she 00:00:44.610 --> 00:00:48.570 started in design and what you could learn from that and about how you can 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:50.250 change the mentality around design. 00:00:50.490 --> 00:00:53.940 When you're the only designer in a company there's plenty for 00:00:53.940 --> 00:00:55.350 you to learn in the next hour. 00:00:55.850 --> 00:00:56.190 Enjoy. 00:00:59.775 --> 00:01:02.445 You and I welcome to design which business I'm excited to have a 00:01:02.445 --> 00:01:04.035 fellow Romanian on the podcast today. 00:01:04.065 --> 00:01:07.545 That's a first, you are currently the UX planetary UI pass. 00:01:07.634 --> 00:01:11.175 A Romanian unicorn company is being called nowadays, I guess, but 00:01:11.205 --> 00:01:14.714 outside of UI path, you do a lot of things for the design community. 00:01:14.714 --> 00:01:17.414 And I don't even know where to start, whether that's mentoring designers, 00:01:17.445 --> 00:01:21.405 whether that's creating content for them on social media, hosting your own podcast. 00:01:21.615 --> 00:01:22.905 There's a lot to talk about there. 00:01:22.905 --> 00:01:26.355 So why don't we start by you just telling us a little bit about how it all 00:01:26.355 --> 00:01:30.015 started for you and how you got to where you are today, and then we'll take it. 00:01:31.304 --> 00:01:32.294 Ioana: Yeah, absolutely. 00:01:32.294 --> 00:01:36.825 I'd be excited to talk about my journey, but before heading into this topic, 00:01:36.884 --> 00:01:40.695 uh, and unpacking it, I just want to say thank you for having me on your 00:01:40.695 --> 00:01:42.735 show and thank you for the invitation. 00:01:42.735 --> 00:01:47.315 And thanks to anyone who is listening right now to this conversation between us. 00:01:47.315 --> 00:01:50.374 And I'm also happy to speak to a fellow Romanian. 00:01:50.404 --> 00:01:53.914 It's pretty exciting because most of the podcasts appearances and even my own 00:01:53.914 --> 00:01:57.754 podcast they're made of conversations with people from all over the world. 00:01:57.754 --> 00:02:00.694 So I rarely get to speak to a fellow Romanian. 00:02:00.724 --> 00:02:01.865 So yay to that. 00:02:02.224 --> 00:02:02.554 Yeah. 00:02:03.574 --> 00:02:03.904 Yeah. 00:02:03.964 --> 00:02:06.784 And to get back to your question of how my journey. 00:02:08.071 --> 00:02:09.271 I think, it's interesting. 00:02:09.271 --> 00:02:13.651 Cause I keep answering this question for several years now and it, the, the 00:02:13.651 --> 00:02:16.531 beginning feels further and further away. 00:02:16.531 --> 00:02:21.661 Like at some point I will probably not even be able to remember how it 00:02:21.661 --> 00:02:25.891 all started because it's going to be so, so far away into, in the past. 00:02:26.221 --> 00:02:27.931 But yeah, I keep rehearsing it. 00:02:27.931 --> 00:02:31.651 So I know the story right now I'm able to deliver an answer. 00:02:31.651 --> 00:02:37.151 So actually when I went to school, I think everything w actually everything 00:02:37.151 --> 00:02:40.751 started in my childhood, but I'm not going to go that far away. 00:02:40.781 --> 00:02:45.511 Uh, so when I finished in university I didn't have, I don't have a design 00:02:45.511 --> 00:02:49.231 background because there wasn't even that option in Romania back then. 00:02:49.591 --> 00:02:50.761 I'm not sure it is. 00:02:50.821 --> 00:02:51.901 There's the option now. 00:02:52.811 --> 00:02:54.421 No, I don't think so. 00:02:54.551 --> 00:02:54.801 Yeah. 00:02:55.321 --> 00:02:59.341 I think there are some like six months, uh programs within different 00:02:59.341 --> 00:03:04.441 universities, but nothing dedicated to, to design a digital design UX 00:03:04.441 --> 00:03:05.971 design and product design in general. 00:03:06.021 --> 00:03:08.451 So this option, wasn't an option back then. 00:03:08.541 --> 00:03:13.971 That's why I went and got hired into a big, big company, ING bank. 00:03:13.971 --> 00:03:14.751 It was a bank. 00:03:14.751 --> 00:03:16.281 My family was ecstatic. 00:03:16.281 --> 00:03:17.601 Everybody was so proud. 00:03:17.601 --> 00:03:22.101 She made it she's in like working in a multinational was like the 00:03:22.101 --> 00:03:23.991 best you could do in your twenties. 00:03:24.021 --> 00:03:27.051 Like I was a, the pride of the family. 00:03:27.481 --> 00:03:31.681 But obviously I wasn't as excited as everyone else was because I was 00:03:31.681 --> 00:03:35.611 working in a call center that wasn't very glamorous, as you can imagine. 00:03:36.661 --> 00:03:40.621 And so I kept switching jobs within the ING bank, which was great, 00:03:40.621 --> 00:03:43.991 having the opportunity of exploring different positions, different 00:03:43.991 --> 00:03:47.321 roles, different things, different aspects of how a big company works. 00:03:47.711 --> 00:03:52.751 And then eventually I ended up witnessing the creation of the UX department, 00:03:53.201 --> 00:03:58.201 which was very exciting to watch because I started having this feeling that, 00:03:58.441 --> 00:03:59.971 okay, maybe that's what I want to do. 00:03:59.971 --> 00:04:05.311 I feel, I feel he's not typically drawn to, to do whatever it was 00:04:05.311 --> 00:04:06.841 that the designers were doing. 00:04:07.141 --> 00:04:09.181 So I started researching the topic. 00:04:09.181 --> 00:04:13.441 I started like shadowing them lurking on under meetings and everything. 00:04:13.441 --> 00:04:16.191 The more I got into the topic, the more exciting it felt. 00:04:16.191 --> 00:04:22.311 So I, um at some point I explicitly manifested the intention of becoming 00:04:22.311 --> 00:04:24.651 a UX designer with my manager. 00:04:25.071 --> 00:04:29.511 And from that moment, I actually waited for one and a half or two years 00:04:29.511 --> 00:04:31.581 before getting the job officially. 00:04:31.581 --> 00:04:32.781 So it wasn't instant. 00:04:32.781 --> 00:04:33.681 It wasn't immediate. 00:04:34.051 --> 00:04:37.651 And this message goes to anyone who is contemplating a career in UX design. 00:04:37.651 --> 00:04:39.031 It's not going to be overnight. 00:04:39.061 --> 00:04:42.891 You really have to put in the effort and sort of strive for it if you want. 00:04:42.891 --> 00:04:48.081 So, so, yeah, so that's how I think I went into a lot of detail as to how 00:04:48.081 --> 00:04:52.421 my journey began, but I transitioned and, uh, from a non-design role and. 00:04:53.791 --> 00:04:58.171 And then, um, I moved to UI path, which eventually became the first 00:04:58.171 --> 00:05:01.321 Romanian unit car and God listed on New York stock exchanges. 00:05:01.471 --> 00:05:05.411 It was the best success story that Romania had so far in 00:05:05.411 --> 00:05:07.771 terms of startups going so big. 00:05:08.191 --> 00:05:13.881 And, um, apart from that, I also always had consultancy gigs part-time roles, 00:05:13.881 --> 00:05:15.651 different projects that I work on. 00:05:15.651 --> 00:05:19.081 I collaborated with design agencies with different startups 00:05:19.081 --> 00:05:20.131 from all over the world. 00:05:20.131 --> 00:05:22.561 So I just couldn't sit still. 00:05:22.801 --> 00:05:28.081 And just one role, I think that it's maybe a designers, uh, disease in general, 00:05:28.081 --> 00:05:32.351 we have to do, several things because I think one thing informs the other. 00:05:32.351 --> 00:05:33.271 So it's really. 00:05:33.786 --> 00:05:37.026 An opportunity for growth and for becoming better in your daytime 00:05:37.026 --> 00:05:40.686 role, if you have like the spar times role or project based roles as well. 00:05:40.956 --> 00:05:46.456 So I always kept feeding this appetite for experimentation and trying different 00:05:46.486 --> 00:05:48.706 industries, teams, projects, and so on. 00:05:48.706 --> 00:05:52.576 So so I think that's mean I'm not chill plus all the content part, but I'm not 00:05:52.576 --> 00:05:54.226 going to go into so much detail on that. 00:05:54.226 --> 00:05:56.326 So we have time to talk about something else as well. 00:05:56.566 --> 00:05:57.256 Yeah, for sure. 00:05:57.286 --> 00:05:57.616 Christian: Yeah. 00:05:57.826 --> 00:05:59.596 There's a interesting something. 00:05:59.776 --> 00:06:02.736 Something interesting that you said there is, the way you started 00:06:02.736 --> 00:06:06.036 by going through different roles and ending up becoming a designer. 00:06:06.036 --> 00:06:07.836 And I, I feel that a lot of the people we've had on the 00:06:07.836 --> 00:06:09.906 show have a similar story. 00:06:10.236 --> 00:06:13.956 Nobody really started out thinking I want to become a designer because they will, 00:06:14.016 --> 00:06:17.526 whether there was not a thing called design or whether they just wasn't, 00:06:17.586 --> 00:06:21.396 they just weren't aware that it exists. 00:06:21.486 --> 00:06:21.726 Right. 00:06:21.726 --> 00:06:27.006 So you kind of find out as you're jumping from one job to another, 00:06:27.006 --> 00:06:29.136 that you want to be a designer, what was it that attracted you to. 00:06:30.221 --> 00:06:30.941 Ioana: Looking back. 00:06:30.941 --> 00:06:34.421 I think that probably I have some false memories about it because now 00:06:34.421 --> 00:06:37.751 I'm giving the interpretation of everything I know about design today. 00:06:37.751 --> 00:06:40.391 I'm adding that storytelling layer to everything. 00:06:40.391 --> 00:06:44.741 So it was more so, so to be completely honest, if I take out everything that 00:06:44.741 --> 00:06:49.821 I know today, and if I take out this magical storytelling layer that I feel 00:06:49.821 --> 00:06:53.631 like adding to the to the story, I think it was just some sort of intuition 00:06:53.631 --> 00:06:55.221 that maybe I would be right for it. 00:06:55.401 --> 00:07:00.501 I didn't really understand what it was, but I sorta, it was. 00:07:01.756 --> 00:07:05.236 Immediately obvious that it's about people. 00:07:05.266 --> 00:07:06.826 It's about solving problems. 00:07:06.826 --> 00:07:10.096 It's about talking to your users, understanding how to build products. 00:07:10.096 --> 00:07:13.036 They love understanding how to make products better and 00:07:13.036 --> 00:07:14.506 ultimately their lives better. 00:07:14.506 --> 00:07:17.386 So I don't know if there are people out there who would, 00:07:17.416 --> 00:07:19.276 wouldn't be attracted to this idea. 00:07:19.276 --> 00:07:21.586 They think it's pretty seductive for anyone. 00:07:21.586 --> 00:07:26.746 But for me, I was a person who was fascinated by people for all my life. 00:07:26.776 --> 00:07:30.886 Even since childhood I'm into all sorts of things, psychology, trying to 00:07:30.886 --> 00:07:34.216 unpack what goes on in people's minds and their emotions and everything. 00:07:34.216 --> 00:07:37.606 So I'm naturally drawn towards understanding people. 00:07:37.606 --> 00:07:43.696 And I felt like this job kind of combines working in a company in a team. 00:07:43.696 --> 00:07:49.066 So I don't have to become a therapist to work with people, but I can solve 00:07:49.066 --> 00:07:50.866 problems for them through technology. 00:07:50.896 --> 00:07:53.626 And I think that was a very seductive and powerful. 00:07:54.801 --> 00:07:58.311 Christian: We had someone in the past in the past on shore, who said that she 00:07:58.311 --> 00:08:01.431 also started working in a call center first and became a designer afterwards. 00:08:01.431 --> 00:08:04.461 But she feels that while she was in the call center, she was doing 00:08:04.461 --> 00:08:07.251 the job of a UX designer without being called a UX designer. 00:08:07.281 --> 00:08:10.731 Because at the end of the day, you solve problems, you talk to customers and 00:08:11.181 --> 00:08:12.411 we solve problems the best way we can. 00:08:12.411 --> 00:08:13.161 So it's 00:08:13.931 --> 00:08:14.361 Ioana: parallel. 00:08:14.751 --> 00:08:15.531 Absolutely correct. 00:08:15.531 --> 00:08:19.791 I think the call center was the best foundation I could have for my career 00:08:20.221 --> 00:08:25.221 as a UX designer, because you start, I started by listening to people, which is 00:08:25.221 --> 00:08:27.021 what you do as a designer, essentially. 00:08:27.921 --> 00:08:31.521 Christian: I think, uh, some of these jobs, I think it was Casey Neistat. 00:08:31.551 --> 00:08:34.851 Who said, when someone asked him, well, how do you, how did you find 00:08:34.851 --> 00:08:36.141 out what you wanted to do in life? 00:08:36.591 --> 00:08:38.991 And he said, well, I had all this crap jobs. 00:08:39.321 --> 00:08:42.021 And I knew while doing these jobs that I didn't want to do them. 00:08:42.051 --> 00:08:45.561 So kind of through that experimentation, I found out what I didn't want to do. 00:08:45.861 --> 00:08:47.541 And through that, I found out what I did want to do. 00:08:47.541 --> 00:08:50.541 And for me it's a bit similar because while I did work in a call center, 00:08:50.631 --> 00:08:52.431 I worked in a sales call center. 00:08:52.521 --> 00:08:54.501 So it's a bit, it's outbound, not inbound. 00:08:55.041 --> 00:08:57.861 And I knew right away, that is just not something I want 00:08:57.861 --> 00:08:59.151 to do for the rest of my life. 00:08:59.151 --> 00:09:03.201 So, um, yeah, it's, it's sometimes it's a, it's figuring out what 00:09:03.201 --> 00:09:04.101 you don't want to do first. 00:09:04.101 --> 00:09:04.911 And then you find out what you. 00:09:05.761 --> 00:09:06.091 Yeah, 00:09:06.091 --> 00:09:06.631 Ioana: absolutely. 00:09:06.631 --> 00:09:08.971 For me, that was the case for my personal life. 00:09:08.971 --> 00:09:11.941 Like having different relationships with people, it kind of helped me 00:09:11.941 --> 00:09:16.061 understand what I care about in relationships in general and help me 00:09:16.061 --> 00:09:17.951 filter out people as I grew older. 00:09:18.701 --> 00:09:19.151 Christian: Yeah. 00:09:19.301 --> 00:09:25.301 I think that's, it's still valid today in any area of life, but mostly at work, 00:09:25.511 --> 00:09:30.791 I can see it manifesting because when you work at a company in a specific 00:09:30.791 --> 00:09:35.591 team with specific people that you maybe don't feel that you're a really good fit 00:09:35.591 --> 00:09:38.711 there, that's how you find out where you want to work, who you want to work with. 00:09:38.741 --> 00:09:39.701 What type of companies? 00:09:40.301 --> 00:09:42.461 For me, I know agencies are not really my thing. 00:09:42.491 --> 00:09:44.681 I prefer to be in-house, but that's because I worked in 00:09:44.681 --> 00:09:46.271 agencies and I had that experience. 00:09:46.271 --> 00:09:50.111 So I always say to people who ask me well, I'm working at this 00:09:50.111 --> 00:09:51.401 place and I'm not really enjoying. 00:09:51.401 --> 00:09:52.451 And I ask, well, what do you think that. 00:09:53.196 --> 00:09:54.756 If you're not enjoying it, what do you really think? 00:09:54.756 --> 00:09:55.116 It means? 00:09:55.296 --> 00:09:58.596 Oh, like, I guess it means I don't really, I shouldn't do it more of this, you know? 00:09:58.626 --> 00:09:59.316 Yeah, exactly. 00:09:59.596 --> 00:10:02.826 you gotta have some bad experiences too, to figure out what you want to do. 00:10:02.916 --> 00:10:04.056 At least that's the way I think about it. 00:10:05.766 --> 00:10:09.076 Did the because before you became a designer, you were 00:10:09.256 --> 00:10:11.026 also a content manager, right? 00:10:11.026 --> 00:10:14.056 So you had a lot to do with the content of the bank, is that correct? 00:10:14.566 --> 00:10:15.616 Ioana: Yeah, that's correct. 00:10:15.656 --> 00:10:17.786 It was a job still in the digital team. 00:10:17.786 --> 00:10:22.586 So I was, so the banking app for ING Romania is called home bank. 00:10:22.676 --> 00:10:25.076 And so I was working on the banking app. 00:10:25.496 --> 00:10:29.366 Uh, I was sort of very, very close to UX designers and product managers, but I 00:10:29.366 --> 00:10:31.046 was doing something completely different. 00:10:31.886 --> 00:10:37.016 I was actually managing the content and, um, what I would say it was like a. 00:10:37.986 --> 00:10:38.496 Product. 00:10:38.526 --> 00:10:41.526 It was it wasn't the direct banking product. 00:10:41.526 --> 00:10:45.606 It was a product that would give you, uh, some money back when 00:10:45.606 --> 00:10:47.436 you were shopping with ING cards. 00:10:47.436 --> 00:10:51.756 So a sort of cash back program, if you want a very, it's a Buddhist very simply. 00:10:51.906 --> 00:10:56.076 So I was the one who was operating with all the offers, making sure to 00:10:56.076 --> 00:11:00.096 offer us make sense that the images look good, that the logo is good. 00:11:00.096 --> 00:11:04.386 And I was working with Photoshop, which eventually became my first design tool. 00:11:04.686 --> 00:11:08.286 And at that point, nobody was using sketch at least in Romania 00:11:08.496 --> 00:11:10.296 sketch or Figma wasn't even around. 00:11:10.546 --> 00:11:12.076 And Adobe XD was. 00:11:12.721 --> 00:11:13.951 Launched at all. 00:11:14.011 --> 00:11:17.791 So, so the thing is that I started doing UX design and Photoshop. 00:11:17.791 --> 00:11:22.411 So the thing that helped me kind of pick up very quickly, the UX 00:11:22.411 --> 00:11:24.031 job was that I mastered this tool. 00:11:24.031 --> 00:11:27.061 But if eventually in my career, I understood that tools are like 00:11:27.061 --> 00:11:31.231 the last sort of least important part of the design process. 00:11:31.231 --> 00:11:33.601 It's the process and the product thinking that matter. 00:11:33.901 --> 00:11:38.251 But, knowing the tool kind of gave me a quick jumpstart into prototyping, 00:11:38.251 --> 00:11:40.561 ideas, solutions, testing them and so on. 00:11:40.681 --> 00:11:40.951 Christian: Yeah. 00:11:41.581 --> 00:11:42.541 I love what you just said. 00:11:42.541 --> 00:11:44.431 There tools are the last thing that matters. 00:11:44.461 --> 00:11:46.051 There are all these other things that matter more. 00:11:46.051 --> 00:11:47.131 So let's talk about them. 00:11:47.341 --> 00:11:49.891 What are these other things that are your opinion? 00:11:49.951 --> 00:11:53.671 And I tend to agree with you matter more than just mastering Figma 00:11:53.701 --> 00:11:54.781 or whatever other tool there is. 00:11:55.921 --> 00:11:59.671 Ioana: Well, the first thing that came to my mind maybe because my, I have this 00:11:59.731 --> 00:12:05.181 bias, uh, towards people being at the center of everything is I think in UX 00:12:05.181 --> 00:12:08.681 design, people matter most in two ways. 00:12:08.681 --> 00:12:13.391 If you want, on, on one hand, I think the users should be obviously, and I 00:12:13.391 --> 00:12:16.601 know that there's a conversation in the design industry that argues that. 00:12:17.441 --> 00:12:22.271 Ditch the term user and just call them people or humans, because user 00:12:22.271 --> 00:12:27.491 sounds very the, I dunno, impersonal and a bit strange, but we normalize it 00:12:27.491 --> 00:12:29.591 by even the name of our role, right. 00:12:29.591 --> 00:12:30.761 User experience designer. 00:12:31.301 --> 00:12:34.361 So I think that human people should be at the core of 00:12:34.361 --> 00:12:37.271 everything we do and understanding them is actually our mission. 00:12:37.751 --> 00:12:40.931 But also I think that a very important part of the design role 00:12:40.931 --> 00:12:42.911 is working with other people. 00:12:42.911 --> 00:12:46.771 So aligning people around a goal for your users. 00:12:47.341 --> 00:12:53.531 So collaboration for me, was probably the the most important part of my design role. 00:12:53.561 --> 00:12:58.491 Being able to align people around a design goal and to make sure that things 00:12:58.491 --> 00:13:03.861 are happening and that the users needs are reaching other people in our team. 00:13:03.861 --> 00:13:07.011 So everyone understands why we're doing what we're doing and so on. 00:13:07.011 --> 00:13:09.681 I think that's the most important part of design. 00:13:09.951 --> 00:13:11.091 And then there's also the. 00:13:12.081 --> 00:13:14.781 The process, if you want to thinking, like, what's the 00:13:14.781 --> 00:13:16.131 problem I'm trying to solve? 00:13:16.131 --> 00:13:17.691 Why am I solving this problem? 00:13:17.991 --> 00:13:19.641 Is this the right problem to solve? 00:13:20.061 --> 00:13:21.441 Is this the right way to solve it? 00:13:21.441 --> 00:13:25.701 And so critical thinking, always asking questions, always being 00:13:25.761 --> 00:13:27.801 intentional with everything you do. 00:13:27.881 --> 00:13:32.121 In design challenges and design projects, um, was something that 00:13:32.631 --> 00:13:35.271 looking back became more important. 00:13:35.271 --> 00:13:38.241 So in the beginning it was just like the classic checklist. 00:13:38.511 --> 00:13:40.641 I have to do wire frames and then I have to do a prototype. 00:13:40.641 --> 00:13:43.701 And then it's something that I criticize openly today. 00:13:43.701 --> 00:13:46.131 But in the beginning, I was just like that, obviously. 00:13:46.131 --> 00:13:51.001 So I kept going from one stage to another in this linear process, 00:13:51.001 --> 00:13:53.071 which was totally fake and unnatural. 00:13:53.071 --> 00:13:56.531 And it proved to be very messy in reality. 00:13:56.531 --> 00:13:58.121 And there was a lot of back and forth. 00:13:58.121 --> 00:14:02.441 And now I know the design process is non-linear, but in the beginning 00:14:02.441 --> 00:14:03.701 it was pretty much like that. 00:14:03.701 --> 00:14:07.181 And then eventually I started redefining my own defense. 00:14:07.771 --> 00:14:08.671 Of UX design. 00:14:08.671 --> 00:14:12.211 And today I think it's it's people process and thinking 00:14:13.681 --> 00:14:15.901 Christian: those mistakes are part of the growth. 00:14:16.021 --> 00:14:17.131 That's how you learn, isn't it? 00:14:17.191 --> 00:14:22.261 That's the nobody comes out of school or get self-taught and is a perfect 00:14:22.261 --> 00:14:24.631 designer or knows everything about design. 00:14:24.631 --> 00:14:27.061 So I think we all have done those mistakes. 00:14:27.061 --> 00:14:30.901 We all have done those processes thinking I technically, I don't need 00:14:31.021 --> 00:14:34.411 a wireframes here, but I'm going to do them because it's expected of me. 00:14:34.651 --> 00:14:37.981 So it's expected for the portfolio to have a wireframe. 00:14:37.981 --> 00:14:40.651 So yeah, I think we've all done those, but you said something 00:14:40.651 --> 00:14:44.821 interesting there aligning people around the common goal is one of the 00:14:44.821 --> 00:14:46.141 most important parts of the role. 00:14:47.071 --> 00:14:51.661 So tactically on a daily basis, how do you go around about that? 00:14:51.661 --> 00:14:52.051 Doing that? 00:14:53.371 --> 00:14:56.731 Ioana: Well, if we're going in the trenches of how you're doing design 00:14:56.731 --> 00:15:00.571 work and trying to understand, uh, what it feels like from the front line, 00:15:00.571 --> 00:15:04.781 I think that, you do it through a lot of conversation and I think that. 00:15:05.601 --> 00:15:10.291 What I've learned gets us to the best results, not only in terms of the best 00:15:10.291 --> 00:15:15.421 alignment, but also the best outcome for our users is to be in a constant state 00:15:15.421 --> 00:15:18.091 of, in a constant, conversational state. 00:15:18.511 --> 00:15:20.461 So I think that the number one. 00:15:21.571 --> 00:15:26.311 Method, if you want, or path to building alignment is to have 00:15:26.311 --> 00:15:30.451 continuous conversations while also respecting boundaries. 00:15:30.451 --> 00:15:32.851 Like now we're like in our free time. 00:15:32.851 --> 00:15:35.671 And so I've been, I say that because I've been in projects and 00:15:35.671 --> 00:15:38.381 I've worked with startups where, uh, the boundaries were very. 00:15:39.326 --> 00:15:39.926 Fuzzy. 00:15:40.196 --> 00:15:44.246 And we kept talking even Sunday evening conversations about 00:15:44.246 --> 00:15:46.736 a users or an interesting insight or an interesting idea. 00:15:47.006 --> 00:15:49.406 And I, I don't want to support that anymore. 00:15:49.796 --> 00:15:54.806 I feel like that, that we should also, we should talk as much as possible, but also 00:15:54.806 --> 00:15:59.426 respect the mental health and breaks and disconnecting and having a personal life. 00:15:59.426 --> 00:16:04.526 So, so with that, uh, out of the way, I think conversations should be a part 00:16:04.526 --> 00:16:06.926 of our daily role with other people. 00:16:06.926 --> 00:16:11.906 And I think that as designers, I mean the purpose of design deliverables is 00:16:11.906 --> 00:16:17.066 actually to create the right conversations to generate the right conversations 00:16:17.336 --> 00:16:21.776 and to align people around different goals at different stages of the design 00:16:21.776 --> 00:16:23.876 product, uh, of the design process. 00:16:23.876 --> 00:16:27.836 So with everything we do as designers, we basically socialize. 00:16:28.676 --> 00:16:32.426 Design goal, a design insight, or a couple of design insights. 00:16:32.426 --> 00:16:36.816 We socialize the rationale behind everything we're doing and everything. 00:16:36.816 --> 00:16:40.636 So we're we're socializing, um, insights and everything. 00:16:40.636 --> 00:16:41.866 So that's why. 00:16:42.466 --> 00:16:46.876 We should, fight for conversation and that to be more tactical, even more 00:16:46.876 --> 00:16:49.246 tactical, I think we do it through, okay. 00:16:49.246 --> 00:16:52.486 I'm not a fan of personas, but it's the first example that comes to my mind. 00:16:52.486 --> 00:16:57.436 So if you want people who are not designers, non designers, to understand 00:16:57.766 --> 00:17:02.536 who you're designing for at least in, in an abstract conceptual way, right? 00:17:02.746 --> 00:17:06.076 You can or make it less abstract or less conceptual. 00:17:06.256 --> 00:17:07.906 You can build this fictional person. 00:17:07.906 --> 00:17:12.256 That again, there's a lot to unpack about personas and not 00:17:12.376 --> 00:17:16.936 be a huge fan of personas, but it's a way in which we socialize. 00:17:17.056 --> 00:17:21.556 We circulate insights that we have from research and that the main idea 00:17:21.556 --> 00:17:24.676 or the gist of what I'm trying to say is that we should do it continuously. 00:17:24.676 --> 00:17:26.026 And we basically do it through our. 00:17:27.436 --> 00:17:29.866 Christian: There's a again, to stay on a tactical level. 00:17:29.956 --> 00:17:33.976 Another way that I've managed to do that and rally people around, not necessarily 00:17:33.976 --> 00:17:38.866 a goal, but more so a persona, if you will, was a few years ago, I was 00:17:38.866 --> 00:17:42.346 working with a company where every user customer would have a profile and 00:17:42.346 --> 00:17:43.726 a profile picture attached to that. 00:17:44.176 --> 00:17:47.476 And then sometimes we would bring them in for testing and 00:17:47.476 --> 00:17:48.666 then we would take the profile. 00:17:48.676 --> 00:17:52.076 And if they had a problem in testing or if they got a bit frustrated or 00:17:52.076 --> 00:17:55.306 whatever, and then we would write down kind of a quote from them. 00:17:55.336 --> 00:17:57.976 And then we would print the profile picture on that same piece of paper, 00:17:57.976 --> 00:17:59.176 and then we put it on the walls. 00:17:59.416 --> 00:18:03.496 So every single day you would walk into the office, you would have on 00:18:03.496 --> 00:18:06.346 the left-hand side and right-hand side on the Wallace, you would walk. 00:18:06.706 --> 00:18:06.916 Okay. 00:18:06.946 --> 00:18:10.876 Kind of like on this corridor, full of images and quotes from 00:18:10.876 --> 00:18:14.176 customers and that in the morning framed the work you were doing. 00:18:14.206 --> 00:18:18.346 It's like, okay, these it's not an abstract user somewhere in the world. 00:18:18.346 --> 00:18:21.556 We're doing it for it's these people on the left, on the right-hand side. 00:18:21.556 --> 00:18:22.876 So humans. 00:18:24.091 --> 00:18:25.441 Who we're designing for. 00:18:25.501 --> 00:18:29.251 I find that to be a great way of bringing the entire productive 00:18:29.281 --> 00:18:30.901 together around that goal. 00:18:30.901 --> 00:18:33.631 Because as designers, we care about the users because that's 00:18:33.631 --> 00:18:38.671 our job, but the engineers, maybe product managers, testers, it's not 00:18:38.701 --> 00:18:40.111 really part of their job to care. 00:18:40.381 --> 00:18:43.861 If you somehow manage to bring them around, turn them around and make 00:18:43.861 --> 00:18:48.031 them care, they're going to start advocating for design themselves. 00:18:48.481 --> 00:18:50.371 So kind of makes their job easier too. 00:18:51.661 --> 00:18:54.181 So you say people matter the most. 00:18:54.271 --> 00:18:55.591 And we agree on that. 00:18:55.621 --> 00:18:59.491 So how about the business? 00:18:59.521 --> 00:19:03.211 Because at the end of the day, none of us would have jobs. 00:19:03.301 --> 00:19:05.761 If the businesses would be working for wouldn't make any money. 00:19:06.121 --> 00:19:11.071 So yeah, the people matter, but what's the balance there between designing for 00:19:11.131 --> 00:19:12.571 people and designing for the business. 00:19:13.786 --> 00:19:14.716 Ioana: I love the question. 00:19:14.716 --> 00:19:17.206 And I know that it's actually the title of your podcast. 00:19:17.206 --> 00:19:20.806 So you probably have this conversation quite often, but I didn't really have 00:19:20.806 --> 00:19:25.336 the tense to have this particular conversation with this focus. 00:19:25.666 --> 00:19:29.956 So I'm very happy to talk about my thoughts about this problem. 00:19:29.986 --> 00:19:33.586 Um, I think that I want to start by saying that understanding. 00:19:34.231 --> 00:19:38.221 The importance of business and collaborating with business 00:19:38.251 --> 00:19:43.201 and understanding business is a maturity lesson in your career 00:19:43.201 --> 00:19:45.001 ladder or in your career path. 00:19:45.301 --> 00:19:49.891 I feel that in the beginning, I somehow demonized the business like businesses, 00:19:49.891 --> 00:19:55.171 the bad guy, uh, businesses, uh, like the evil that's trying to like steal 00:19:55.171 --> 00:19:59.911 from the good experience that the user has, that, that there's always going 00:19:59.911 --> 00:20:03.571 to be a conflict between what the business wants and what the user wants. 00:20:03.571 --> 00:20:08.101 And I have to be the superhero that sort of advocates for the user perpetually, 00:20:08.101 --> 00:20:11.641 and doesn't allow the business to win this battle because the world will, 00:20:11.671 --> 00:20:14.071 will go to pieces if business wins. 00:20:14.071 --> 00:20:19.141 So business was the bad guy for me for a couple of years early in my career. 00:20:19.501 --> 00:20:24.301 And then eventually I realized that I was looking at things from a very skewed 00:20:24.301 --> 00:20:26.651 or inefficient perspective because. 00:20:27.501 --> 00:20:31.761 Like you said I was, I had a job because that business was working. 00:20:31.761 --> 00:20:32.811 So the business needs. 00:20:34.151 --> 00:20:40.031 And it's definitely not the devil that I, I, I felt like I have to stand up against 00:20:40.031 --> 00:20:44.681 the business and reject, then push back on whatever the business or the CEO wants. 00:20:45.161 --> 00:20:50.351 So then I eventually understood that we have to become friends and I feel that 00:20:50.351 --> 00:20:55.301 it's a mistake that I see very often in junior, uh, ship with many designers. 00:20:55.361 --> 00:20:58.931 I think that, um, that you become a mature designer. 00:20:58.931 --> 00:21:01.451 Once you understand that you're also working for the business. 00:21:01.451 --> 00:21:02.951 I mean, you're working for the business. 00:21:02.951 --> 00:21:04.741 That's where you get paid from. 00:21:04.951 --> 00:21:09.481 So the business also has to succeed if you build the perfect product, but the company 00:21:09.481 --> 00:21:11.701 has to go out of business, then, then. 00:21:12.396 --> 00:21:13.326 Okay, that's great. 00:21:13.326 --> 00:21:16.416 But, but it's not really it's not ideal. 00:21:16.416 --> 00:21:21.186 So, so to your question, I feel that the business is a very 00:21:21.186 --> 00:21:23.166 important part of our work as well. 00:21:23.166 --> 00:21:27.476 And understanding is the business side of things and building, I, I'm 00:21:27.476 --> 00:21:29.636 not a huge fan of the word empathy. 00:21:29.636 --> 00:21:33.416 I think it's very much diluted this days and overuse. 00:21:33.416 --> 00:21:38.766 But to sort of, if it makes it easier to like push my point building 00:21:38.766 --> 00:21:40.416 empathy towards the business as well. 00:21:40.416 --> 00:21:45.066 So not just towards the user, but also what is the business struggling with? 00:21:45.096 --> 00:21:46.866 What is the business trying to achieve? 00:21:46.866 --> 00:21:49.176 What would make our product more successful? 00:21:49.176 --> 00:21:50.916 What are our success metrics? 00:21:51.156 --> 00:21:54.666 Also speaking the language of business was something that it took me a while. 00:21:54.666 --> 00:21:58.656 So in the beginning, I just zoned out whenever I heard business conversations 00:21:58.686 --> 00:22:00.966 or I, I felt like it wasn't. 00:22:02.441 --> 00:22:06.641 Place or my role as a designer to understand whatever the 00:22:06.701 --> 00:22:09.041 business was in regards to. 00:22:09.041 --> 00:22:12.101 But, but now I realize that it's essential as well. 00:22:12.221 --> 00:22:14.501 So it's not just a user, it's also the business. 00:22:14.951 --> 00:22:21.701 So yeah the bottom line would be that businesses is very important and we should 00:22:21.701 --> 00:22:24.171 listen to the business people as well. 00:22:25.756 --> 00:22:28.816 Christian: I find that one of the more effective ways to have this 00:22:28.816 --> 00:22:32.626 conversation with business people is to speak their language, obviously 00:22:33.196 --> 00:22:34.726 and speaking their language. 00:22:34.756 --> 00:22:35.566 What do I mean by that? 00:22:35.566 --> 00:22:40.876 I mean, using data because most of the business functions around design are very 00:22:40.876 --> 00:22:44.026 much data focused, whether it's someone in finance, whether it's someone in 00:22:44.026 --> 00:22:48.046 customer support and they have this cost that they need to cut down, whether it's a 00:22:48.046 --> 00:22:53.266 CEO cares about the bottom line, whenever you're able to link your work on a daily 00:22:53.266 --> 00:22:58.756 basis with some sort of a metric that other business functions care about, it's 00:22:58.756 --> 00:23:00.646 much easier to have this conversations. 00:23:00.976 --> 00:23:06.676 And it makes people listen to design versus 10 years ago, when we didn't 00:23:06.676 --> 00:23:09.496 really know about these new metrics, KPIs, what are all these things? 00:23:09.496 --> 00:23:12.076 And we would just come in as a more, a more of a, more of an 00:23:12.436 --> 00:23:14.896 artistic function, if anything. 00:23:15.046 --> 00:23:20.236 So how do you use data on a daily basis to how, or do you use data on a daily 00:23:20.236 --> 00:23:21.556 basis to have those conversations? 00:23:23.426 --> 00:23:27.356 Ioana: So I think that in my experience, it wasn't that much about 00:23:27.356 --> 00:23:29.426 data, but about numbers in general. 00:23:29.426 --> 00:23:34.406 So I feel that business people respond very well to like the language they're 00:23:34.406 --> 00:23:40.746 speaking, which most of the times is ROI or whatever way they translate or they 00:23:40.776 --> 00:23:43.416 name their profit or their business goals. 00:23:43.686 --> 00:23:50.256 So I feel that in the beginning I used to be not naive, but like very, very how 00:23:50.256 --> 00:23:54.906 can I say sweet, a sweet person that was just talking about how the users will 00:23:54.906 --> 00:23:57.036 love this and it's going to be great. 00:23:57.036 --> 00:23:59.886 And we're building such an amazing experience for our users. 00:23:59.886 --> 00:24:00.306 Yay. 00:24:00.606 --> 00:24:02.856 But nobody, I mean, of course they care. 00:24:02.856 --> 00:24:06.606 Everybody wants their product to be nice to use and to be delightful 00:24:06.606 --> 00:24:08.976 and to be, uh, usable and know. 00:24:10.206 --> 00:24:16.236 But at the same time, I wasn't able to get buy-in for research or for hiring 00:24:16.236 --> 00:24:21.666 new people or for if, if I couldn't like, just like you said, speak our language 00:24:21.696 --> 00:24:25.536 and our language is numbers because that's the mindset they're in because they're 00:24:25.596 --> 00:24:30.396 in a way, I think the people running the business are our users as well. 00:24:30.576 --> 00:24:34.686 So we also need to understand them to understand who is this persona, 00:24:34.686 --> 00:24:36.576 if you want that we're talking to. 00:24:36.576 --> 00:24:40.296 And what's the vocabulary, what's the, what's his space. 00:24:40.296 --> 00:24:44.076 If you want, what what's the, of course the language, but also 00:24:44.076 --> 00:24:45.606 like, what are his concerns? 00:24:45.916 --> 00:24:49.856 What are the goals, the needs, everything, when it comes to business 00:24:49.906 --> 00:24:51.196 I think we should make money. 00:24:52.006 --> 00:24:55.516 Maybe not equal, but we should make a considerable effort 00:24:55.936 --> 00:24:57.166 in that direction as well. 00:24:57.166 --> 00:25:03.286 So in my experience, yes, speaking to our language work and, um, it, it over 00:25:03.286 --> 00:25:09.286 time working with different startups and with senior people from business, I got 00:25:09.286 --> 00:25:11.296 better at articulating what might be. 00:25:11.296 --> 00:25:16.366 So now I feel that like experiences in a way, like we means that we 00:25:16.366 --> 00:25:18.346 have educated guesses if you want. 00:25:18.646 --> 00:25:24.436 So I, my intuition got better as to what I might need to say, to get buy in for 00:25:24.436 --> 00:25:26.296 whatever thing I was trying to get buy in. 00:25:26.596 --> 00:25:28.966 So language, yeah, you made a great point. 00:25:29.236 --> 00:25:29.656 Speaking. 00:25:29.656 --> 00:25:31.246 The same language is essential. 00:25:32.606 --> 00:25:36.526 Christian: I find that whenever you are able to speak their language and 00:25:36.586 --> 00:25:40.486 have conversations around it, what he said to ROI or whatever the metrics 00:25:40.486 --> 00:25:47.176 are in that business, these people also become very much your support. 00:25:48.031 --> 00:25:52.081 They become allies in the business because suddenly they realize, 00:25:52.111 --> 00:25:55.771 oh, oh, this design team, they can actually help us push metrics. 00:25:55.771 --> 00:26:00.361 I didn't realize that if it's a con, if it's an organization that didn't 00:26:00.361 --> 00:26:04.021 have a lot of designers before, or it doesn't have a design culture, it's 00:26:04.021 --> 00:26:08.441 not really a well known that design can push metrics in the right way. 00:26:08.441 --> 00:26:11.951 So I find that by having this conversation in their language, you 00:26:11.981 --> 00:26:14.051 earn their trust, which is so important. 00:26:14.381 --> 00:26:17.981 And you earn an ally at work, which again is very, very important. 00:26:18.281 --> 00:26:20.951 And there will come a time when you will need. 00:26:22.286 --> 00:26:25.826 You will need some budgets for research or whatever, that's where you would 00:26:25.826 --> 00:26:29.666 be able to catch seen all of that karma that you build up over time. 00:26:29.816 --> 00:26:30.446 Ioana: Absolutely. 00:26:30.446 --> 00:26:31.136 I agree with that. 00:26:31.136 --> 00:26:33.656 And I think that trust is such an important part and I think 00:26:33.656 --> 00:26:37.226 that they feel like somebody needs to fight for them as well. 00:26:37.226 --> 00:26:41.026 And when you show that as a designer, definitely, they feel just like you said, 00:26:41.026 --> 00:26:42.826 that someone is on their side and I think. 00:26:43.526 --> 00:26:48.946 Thing or phenomenon that helped us with building a better, a stronger relationship 00:26:48.946 --> 00:26:54.496 with business was that I feel that in the industry as a whole, the conversations 00:26:54.496 --> 00:27:00.606 around how design benefits business have like increased or they're more out there 00:27:00.606 --> 00:27:05.866 or more often or louder, starting from studies like McKinsey's study of the 00:27:05.866 --> 00:27:11.306 design industry and how much does design can benefit numbers and then the profit, 00:27:11.306 --> 00:27:13.086 then the effectiveness of a company. 00:27:13.086 --> 00:27:17.266 So there were studies about it senior leaders from like the 00:27:17.266 --> 00:27:22.556 big four, whatever co whoever is influential in the world of business. 00:27:22.806 --> 00:27:27.606 I feel like voices started tackling these topics and the importance of design. 00:27:27.606 --> 00:27:29.706 And we've seen a lot of reports. 00:27:29.706 --> 00:27:31.506 We've seen a lot of conversations. 00:27:31.776 --> 00:27:35.016 I think now they're they're again, a bit tuned down, but 00:27:35.016 --> 00:27:36.066 there was this moment in time. 00:27:36.601 --> 00:27:40.891 Where even through the like design thinking, which I'm not a fan of. 00:27:40.921 --> 00:27:44.791 And I think that for some parts is doing more harm than good, but I 00:27:44.791 --> 00:27:49.051 think that this entire conversation is about innovation design thinking. 00:27:49.231 --> 00:27:53.581 Every company needs to have the least, at least a business people 00:27:53.581 --> 00:27:57.631 starting hearing about design, which is pretty powerful in itself. 00:27:57.661 --> 00:28:02.701 And they gave it a chance if you want so that we, I think these buzzwords 00:28:02.741 --> 00:28:06.521 kick the door open, but we're the foot in the door that we needed 00:28:06.521 --> 00:28:09.281 to like start a conversation and. 00:28:10.246 --> 00:28:10.636 Yeah. 00:28:10.636 --> 00:28:14.296 So I think that a couple of things happened, uh, at the same time, which 00:28:14.296 --> 00:28:19.676 were favorable to these two sides of the, of the fence to like join 00:28:19.676 --> 00:28:24.666 forces or maybe I have a personal bias around how things shaped out for me. 00:28:25.656 --> 00:28:25.866 Christian: Yeah. 00:28:25.866 --> 00:28:28.206 Well, we've seen a lot of companies in the past 10 years 00:28:28.206 --> 00:28:29.526 that have been really successful. 00:28:29.526 --> 00:28:34.676 And whether you look at the media coverage or anything like that it's spoken quite a 00:28:34.676 --> 00:28:39.896 lot about how the impact of design or what the impact of design was on that company. 00:28:39.926 --> 00:28:44.456 And I think more and more people are listening to that too, or are watching 00:28:44.456 --> 00:28:48.386 those examples and they want some of that success themselves, which is 00:28:48.386 --> 00:28:49.976 where they go in and hire designers. 00:28:50.006 --> 00:28:54.416 But what I found in the past is that, okay, someone hires designers, because 00:28:54.416 --> 00:28:57.706 they've seen that apple has succeeded or all these design led companies or 00:28:57.706 --> 00:29:01.486 designed it form whatever, but they don't really know what to do with this. 00:29:02.341 --> 00:29:06.181 The hiring a designer versus being a design driven organization. 00:29:07.351 --> 00:29:08.281 Totally not the same thing. 00:29:08.281 --> 00:29:11.971 So do you have any experience going to beat the first one in the company and 00:29:11.971 --> 00:29:14.281 having to build and anything like that? 00:29:15.601 --> 00:29:21.011 Ioana: Yeah, I've had this, experience in my life and it's not a very happy place to 00:29:21.011 --> 00:29:27.141 be, but it's also, an exciting challenge because you get to shape and organization, 00:29:27.141 --> 00:29:29.001 but also a mindset around design. 00:29:29.391 --> 00:29:33.351 And that's something that you like aspire to be able to do 00:29:33.381 --> 00:29:34.971 when you grow in your career. 00:29:34.971 --> 00:29:38.381 So I'm not complaining that I've had this situation in my 00:29:38.381 --> 00:29:39.851 life, but it it wasn't easy. 00:29:40.151 --> 00:29:44.476 I think that there's a limit to this experience in itself. 00:29:44.476 --> 00:29:47.746 So I think that I would only be able to be the only designer or 00:29:47.746 --> 00:29:50.746 the first designer in a company for a couple of years in my career. 00:29:50.746 --> 00:29:55.056 And then I do want to join immature design organizations and go in, in, 00:29:55.056 --> 00:29:59.926 in companies where I design is already settled and is already influential. 00:29:59.926 --> 00:30:03.466 And the power that the value of design was already proven. 00:30:03.466 --> 00:30:06.946 And everybody agrees that design is important but yeah, I've had 00:30:06.946 --> 00:30:10.966 the experience of being the first designer or having to convince 00:30:10.966 --> 00:30:12.586 people that design is important. 00:30:13.006 --> 00:30:19.456 And I think that the best way to do that in the beginning, uh, is to two things 00:30:19.486 --> 00:30:23.416 have worked in my experience to go in a very tactical on a very tactical level. 00:30:23.416 --> 00:30:26.526 Again number one is doing small. 00:30:27.306 --> 00:30:28.446 Proof of concepts. 00:30:28.746 --> 00:30:33.066 so I think it's, it's, it's very valuable to show people in with the 00:30:33.066 --> 00:30:37.926 small features or small improvements or small research projects showed him 00:30:37.926 --> 00:30:41.846 at controllable scale that doesn't require a lot of funding or a lot of 00:30:41.846 --> 00:30:44.556 effort from their side showing them. 00:30:45.261 --> 00:30:49.221 Why design is valuable or how design can benefit them. 00:30:49.521 --> 00:30:53.911 So doing these pilot experiments with would definitely be a way 00:30:53.911 --> 00:30:57.841 in which just start out promoting evangelizing and getting buy-in 00:30:57.841 --> 00:30:59.641 for design and scaling design. 00:31:00.061 --> 00:31:04.271 And then the second thing is exposing them to users as much as possible. 00:31:04.581 --> 00:31:08.811 You sort of touched upon briefly earlier in our conversation on the 00:31:08.811 --> 00:31:10.571 importance of seeing the users. 00:31:10.641 --> 00:31:17.181 And I want to build on that because I feel that whenever I saw significant 00:31:17.501 --> 00:31:22.781 shifts in mindset or an attitude towards how important research is or 00:31:22.781 --> 00:31:27.131 how important design is in general, it wasn't a presence of users not 00:31:27.131 --> 00:31:31.811 necessarily live, but like, as a result of seeing how do users interact with 00:31:31.811 --> 00:31:33.641 a product, then many times it was. 00:31:35.481 --> 00:31:42.891 On a ground of panic or on grounds of like just concern or being frightened by 00:31:42.891 --> 00:31:47.301 the issues that you see when you observe your users interacting with the product. 00:31:47.301 --> 00:31:50.391 So, and then you want designed to save you obviously then you won, 00:31:50.511 --> 00:31:52.221 then you say, okay, maybe my bet. 00:31:52.251 --> 00:31:52.971 Wasn't right. 00:31:53.001 --> 00:31:54.651 And maybe the product needs improvement. 00:31:54.661 --> 00:31:55.911 So please, now I trust you. 00:31:55.911 --> 00:31:57.081 I handle, please save me. 00:31:57.351 --> 00:32:01.291 This is the kind of shifts that I've seen, in my own experience. 00:32:01.371 --> 00:32:05.571 So yeah, two things, uh, small projects to start building on and 00:32:05.601 --> 00:32:10.121 gaining power and influence, and then as much as possible everyone who's a 00:32:10.121 --> 00:32:15.021 non-believer should be around users because that will make them believe. 00:32:16.101 --> 00:32:20.121 Christian: There is nothing that I have ever seen change the minds 00:32:20.151 --> 00:32:21.561 of business stakeholders faster. 00:32:22.371 --> 00:32:26.811 Then seeing a user struggle or a customer struggle using their products. 00:32:27.141 --> 00:32:32.061 They're instantly there, their mindset shifts instantly because I guess in 00:32:32.061 --> 00:32:35.361 their minds, you're not really thinking on a daily basis about the user. 00:32:35.361 --> 00:32:36.531 Again, this is not their job. 00:32:36.921 --> 00:32:40.371 So suddenly you're you get the reality in front of you, very close 00:32:40.611 --> 00:32:43.161 to see someone struggle with the product that you're trying to build 00:32:43.161 --> 00:32:45.231 and mentality shift very fast. 00:32:45.231 --> 00:32:47.991 And the importance of design becomes apparent very quickly. 00:32:47.991 --> 00:32:50.961 So you said something, you know, he's not a very happy place to be, 00:32:51.111 --> 00:32:53.721 to be the first designer in a company where design is not very valued. 00:32:53.721 --> 00:32:54.981 It's not a very happy place to be. 00:32:54.981 --> 00:32:58.971 And I've been there myself and I agree it's not a very happy place to be, but 00:33:00.051 --> 00:33:06.711 I think it's a place of opportunities and the place of growth because I have. 00:33:08.506 --> 00:33:14.086 Experienced tremendous growth, more growth in the roles where I were designed. 00:33:14.086 --> 00:33:18.586 Wasn't valued than the ones where I came in and people kind of knew, okay, 00:33:18.736 --> 00:33:22.606 we know what this business function can do and I found that a lot in the 00:33:22.606 --> 00:33:25.126 business to business world in the enterprise software, where design 00:33:25.126 --> 00:33:29.146 is historically not known to be a differentiator like in the consumer world. 00:33:29.596 --> 00:33:32.956 And you go into a business to business company, they never had a designer before. 00:33:33.166 --> 00:33:37.546 The difference you can make, there is so much bigger than going and 00:33:37.546 --> 00:33:40.456 working for Spotify and working on a little feature in a corner 00:33:40.456 --> 00:33:41.776 of the app or something like that. 00:33:41.776 --> 00:33:44.806 So, you know, you work in business to business right now. 00:33:44.836 --> 00:33:46.636 And I'm wondering, how have you seen that? 00:33:46.636 --> 00:33:51.626 Moving from ING, working on a consumer product to UI path, working on 00:33:51.736 --> 00:33:55.576 enterprise software how have you seen that opportunity and growth happening? 00:33:56.721 --> 00:34:01.821 Ioana: Well, it was a huge change for me on many levels, because I was also like 00:34:01.821 --> 00:34:06.081 a different style of company, if you want a different size and obviously maturity. 00:34:06.081 --> 00:34:09.981 So Beth was a fast growing startup hypergrowth. 00:34:10.011 --> 00:34:13.521 I joined right before one year or two years before IPO. 00:34:13.761 --> 00:34:18.651 And so it was sort of a big company, but it wasn't ING bank big. 00:34:18.891 --> 00:34:20.091 So the. 00:34:20.841 --> 00:34:26.091 The pace and the way of working was completely different from what I 00:34:26.091 --> 00:34:27.951 knew and what I was accustomed to. 00:34:27.951 --> 00:34:30.651 So I've been with ING for 10 years. 00:34:30.711 --> 00:34:35.331 So I was very much, yeah, I had roots in, in the way we were doing 00:34:35.331 --> 00:34:38.691 things, the speed at which we were doing things, the pressure. 00:34:38.691 --> 00:34:43.881 And when I moved to UI path, I felt like I'm overwhelmed completely by the 00:34:43.881 --> 00:34:46.251 pace at which things are being done. 00:34:46.251 --> 00:34:51.301 And the, like the hecticness of everything and the opportunities that 00:34:51.301 --> 00:34:54.301 you have for shaping a design language. 00:34:54.331 --> 00:34:57.751 And I'm meaning I'm, I'm talking about a design language within 00:34:57.751 --> 00:35:00.781 the company, not the design system or something like a style guide. 00:35:01.201 --> 00:35:02.311 Um, so. 00:35:03.406 --> 00:35:07.306 So it was a huge opportunity and it was also a culture shock if you want. 00:35:07.846 --> 00:35:09.706 Uh, because I wasn't ready for a dotcom. 00:35:09.736 --> 00:35:13.726 I wasn't, I mean, not that I wasn't ready, but I wasn't used to that 00:35:13.996 --> 00:35:19.156 speed and that hecticness and like grabbing things to solve from a 00:35:19.156 --> 00:35:20.716 bucket of many things to be done. 00:35:21.026 --> 00:35:22.616 Design was not yet mature. 00:35:22.966 --> 00:35:25.486 I wasn't the first designer to join UiPath. 00:35:25.826 --> 00:35:31.176 there were plenty several designers before me, so we kind of joined forces when 00:35:31.176 --> 00:35:34.926 I came, I already joined us frontline of designers, trying to evangelize 00:35:34.926 --> 00:35:36.396 design and D purchase of design. 00:35:36.726 --> 00:35:39.586 But what you can imagine are what's an interest. 00:35:40.351 --> 00:35:43.411 Thing is that there was no design leadership. 00:35:43.471 --> 00:35:46.681 So there wasn't anyone in a design leadership role. 00:35:46.681 --> 00:35:47.341 There was no. 00:35:48.001 --> 00:35:48.511 Okay. 00:35:48.841 --> 00:35:49.141 Okay. 00:35:49.141 --> 00:35:52.261 Maybe not many companies have a chief design officer, like a 00:35:52.291 --> 00:35:54.631 C level, a role for designers. 00:35:54.661 --> 00:35:58.801 Maybe that's a rarity, but we didn't even have a VP of design and we 00:35:58.801 --> 00:36:00.721 didn't even have a director of design. 00:36:00.721 --> 00:36:04.351 So there was no one representing us on that level. 00:36:04.591 --> 00:36:08.641 Uh, talking to top management, talking to the CEO or the chief product officer 00:36:08.881 --> 00:36:10.891 there wasn't, there was none on design. 00:36:10.891 --> 00:36:16.261 So that was a clear, uh, telltale that there's a problem with how design is being 00:36:16.591 --> 00:36:21.301 valued and perceived and the power the influence design has within our company. 00:36:21.361 --> 00:36:28.751 And that changed after I joined, I think in even less than one year, we had 00:36:28.871 --> 00:36:35.021 infused the company with design talent senior leadership talent from the. 00:36:36.521 --> 00:36:39.011 Mostly Seattle, mostly Microsoft. 00:36:39.461 --> 00:36:43.081 So there was this this new wave of leaders that were trying 00:36:43.081 --> 00:36:45.601 to build up a design culture. 00:36:45.901 --> 00:36:50.041 And, uh I apologize if anyone can hear babies in the 00:36:50.041 --> 00:36:52.171 background, but this is just, uh, 00:36:52.801 --> 00:36:54.241 Christian: that's the life that's the life. 00:36:54.271 --> 00:36:54.661 Yeah. 00:36:54.761 --> 00:36:59.111 So I think a lot of these conversations that we're having right now are 00:36:59.141 --> 00:37:05.051 really important to have for junior designers to listen to, because I 00:37:05.051 --> 00:37:07.891 feel, you know you said to yourself you're not educated in design. 00:37:08.141 --> 00:37:12.391 I am, but I can't really say that I've learned a lot in design 00:37:12.391 --> 00:37:14.701 school that I'm still using today. 00:37:16.171 --> 00:37:20.221 I think there is a fundamental problem with design education today. 00:37:20.221 --> 00:37:22.921 Well, with education in general, but we're not going to talk about that 00:37:22.921 --> 00:37:28.801 today, but with design education, I think it's severely lacking behind what the 00:37:28.801 --> 00:37:32.641 business world needs because the business world moves at a really fast pace. 00:37:32.651 --> 00:37:35.401 And in education, a traditional education system has a really 00:37:35.401 --> 00:37:36.511 hard time keeping up with that. 00:37:36.511 --> 00:37:37.111 And that's fair. 00:37:37.801 --> 00:37:42.301 So I know that you many other designers and many other design leaders all 00:37:42.301 --> 00:37:44.971 over the world are trying to solve that problem in a way or another. 00:37:44.971 --> 00:37:46.381 So you have the design academy. 00:37:46.831 --> 00:37:48.931 Uh, could you tell us a bit about that? 00:37:48.931 --> 00:37:50.131 Why did you start it? 00:37:50.551 --> 00:37:52.291 What gap in the market have you seen? 00:37:52.341 --> 00:37:54.511 Have you tried to plug that and all of that? 00:37:55.621 --> 00:37:55.951 Ioana: Yeah. 00:37:55.951 --> 00:38:00.601 I love to talk about that because it's my most important project as a designer. 00:38:00.631 --> 00:38:05.751 Up-to-date and it started just like you assumed by spotting a gap in the market 00:38:05.751 --> 00:38:10.441 by understanding that there's a pain, a huge need for better design education. 00:38:10.761 --> 00:38:11.061 of course. 00:38:11.826 --> 00:38:15.036 I didn't start out believing that I can create the perfect 00:38:15.036 --> 00:38:16.926 system or the perfect recipe. 00:38:16.926 --> 00:38:18.066 There is no such thing. 00:38:18.346 --> 00:38:21.526 it's a combination of many things that a person needs to do in 00:38:21.526 --> 00:38:23.806 order to start our design career. 00:38:24.106 --> 00:38:29.076 But we observed by looking at other bootcamps by following 00:38:29.196 --> 00:38:30.726 conversations in the industry. 00:38:30.726 --> 00:38:35.766 And most of all, the experience that bootcamp graduates had 00:38:36.006 --> 00:38:37.386 after they finished a bootcamp. 00:38:37.386 --> 00:38:41.886 And once they, they were on the market and had to deal with the realities that 00:38:41.946 --> 00:38:46.146 they many times they weren't warned about, or weren't very transparent to them. 00:38:46.146 --> 00:38:47.946 So we kept seeing myself. 00:38:47.946 --> 00:38:54.096 And when I say we, um, I co-founded mental design academy with my co-founder, 00:38:54.126 --> 00:38:58.086 uh, he was a design manager at Fitbit. 00:38:58.116 --> 00:38:59.616 He's now VP of design. 00:38:59.616 --> 00:39:01.826 So he also had an, a startup in Germany. 00:39:01.826 --> 00:39:05.396 And so he also had leadership roles working with designers, junior 00:39:05.396 --> 00:39:09.236 designers and mentoring designers in different bootcamps, uh, the bigger 00:39:09.236 --> 00:39:11.006 boot camps that probably everyone knows. 00:39:11.366 --> 00:39:15.306 So he was mentoring and doing, and I was also mentoring through UX Goodies. 00:39:15.326 --> 00:39:19.346 So we were both doing similar work in different setups, and we were 00:39:19.376 --> 00:39:23.926 encountering the same problems again and again, and the same stages in. 00:39:25.416 --> 00:39:28.536 Transition the transition to UX design started to Curt. 00:39:28.926 --> 00:39:32.766 And so we realized that there is a gap there that there's an opportunity. 00:39:32.796 --> 00:39:36.996 And for me, there was this constant feeling that, okay, now I have 00:39:36.996 --> 00:39:38.936 a community on your equities. 00:39:38.936 --> 00:39:41.486 I have close to 200,000 followers. 00:39:41.796 --> 00:39:43.386 what does that even mean? 00:39:43.656 --> 00:39:48.846 It means that now I have a voice, whatever that is, and I also have a responsibility. 00:39:49.086 --> 00:39:51.666 So what am I doing for all these people? 00:39:51.666 --> 00:39:53.676 Who in a way, give me some. 00:39:55.091 --> 00:39:55.661 Offer me. 00:39:55.661 --> 00:40:00.031 So they grant me some of their time and what am I giving, what am I offering? 00:40:00.061 --> 00:40:01.021 How am I helping them? 00:40:01.021 --> 00:40:05.781 How am I, I have a lot of messages even today from people in my inbox. 00:40:05.811 --> 00:40:09.631 And I felt like in the past, before mental was launched. 00:40:10.021 --> 00:40:12.241 I had nothing, no way of helping them. 00:40:12.241 --> 00:40:16.141 I kind of pointed them or it's different resources, but it felt very unstructured. 00:40:16.141 --> 00:40:20.371 It felt not that it didn't feel like a reliable system of helping people 00:40:20.371 --> 00:40:24.151 transition into UX design or start a UX design career from scratch. 00:40:24.571 --> 00:40:29.971 So, so mental was sort of on my mind for several years before actually having 00:40:29.971 --> 00:40:34.941 the conversation when reached out to me and then it took a year to build it. 00:40:34.971 --> 00:40:38.661 We underestimated how difficult it is to build a design school of 00:40:38.661 --> 00:40:43.751 any sorts and how much content and effort and talent had to go into it. 00:40:43.931 --> 00:40:45.971 We assembled a team of 10 designers. 00:40:47.456 --> 00:40:49.826 With different backgrounds, different specialties. 00:40:49.826 --> 00:40:53.796 So researchers, visual designers even a project. 00:40:53.976 --> 00:40:57.966 So design ops, we have people from different backgrounds, right about 00:40:58.256 --> 00:41:02.186 the part of the curriculum that was where they were specialized then. 00:41:02.186 --> 00:41:06.716 So we try to fix many of the problems and starting with the 00:41:06.716 --> 00:41:10.266 broken curriculums that we ran into another bootcamp, then continuing to 00:41:10.266 --> 00:41:14.376 the problem with mentors, not being specialized in design it's a problem. 00:41:14.376 --> 00:41:18.246 You've seen the design industry today, as well as so many bootcamp 00:41:18.246 --> 00:41:19.686 mentors and big boot camps. 00:41:19.686 --> 00:41:23.556 They're actually front-end developers or they're graphic designers 00:41:23.556 --> 00:41:25.116 or they're branding designers. 00:41:25.116 --> 00:41:26.616 So who is teaching you? 00:41:26.616 --> 00:41:28.376 UX design is another important point. 00:41:28.386 --> 00:41:31.836 So we had like, I can talk about it for days because I've 00:41:31.866 --> 00:41:33.576 been in this problem space. 00:41:33.906 --> 00:41:38.226 So immersed for three years, I think now that I kind of 00:41:38.226 --> 00:41:39.876 understand everything about it. 00:41:39.876 --> 00:41:41.796 So, but that would be it in a nutshell. 00:41:43.136 --> 00:41:47.666 Christian: So, what are some of the keys that you've spotted as that, that are 00:41:47.666 --> 00:41:51.296 useful for someone who either wants to transition or wants to start from scratch? 00:41:51.326 --> 00:41:55.406 What are the two or three things that are just so much more important 00:41:55.406 --> 00:41:57.236 than everything else to learn? 00:41:58.731 --> 00:42:00.171 Transition or starts. 00:42:00.231 --> 00:42:00.591 Yeah, 00:42:00.771 --> 00:42:03.891 Ioana: I that's my favorite question in the world and I'm 00:42:03.951 --> 00:42:08.381 actually launching a course about it with a big chorus platform. 00:42:08.781 --> 00:42:11.621 so yes, this is the most interesting question. 00:42:11.621 --> 00:42:12.431 So what do you need? 00:42:12.671 --> 00:42:13.561 And I, I. 00:42:14.261 --> 00:42:19.181 Kept thinking for many years, for the past year is building mento, doing X goodies, 00:42:19.211 --> 00:42:24.221 doing the podcast, doing all the content that's educational at its foundation. 00:42:24.221 --> 00:42:25.991 So what am I teaching people? 00:42:25.991 --> 00:42:27.251 What am I telling people? 00:42:27.251 --> 00:42:29.701 what is the message that I have to send out there? 00:42:29.701 --> 00:42:34.531 And I realized that by, by doing a lot of introspection, by being a 00:42:34.531 --> 00:42:38.521 self-aware as possible through, I don't journaling watching the conversations 00:42:38.521 --> 00:42:42.691 I have with people and genuinely listening to the people who are either 00:42:42.691 --> 00:42:46.471 struggling to start their career switch or just, they just did it. 00:42:46.471 --> 00:42:48.951 And they're struggling with what follows after you learned 00:42:48.951 --> 00:42:50.221 the theory and do a project. 00:42:50.531 --> 00:42:54.221 so by really, really paying attention to this problem space, I realized that 00:42:54.221 --> 00:42:59.291 there are like four main ingredients that you need for a successful 00:42:59.291 --> 00:43:00.881 career switch into UX design. 00:43:00.881 --> 00:43:02.651 And those ingredients are theory. 00:43:02.651 --> 00:43:06.341 On one hand, I wouldn't say this is the most important because the theory is. 00:43:07.241 --> 00:43:12.191 Like design working as a designer is very practical and you do 00:43:12.191 --> 00:43:13.361 need to know the concepts. 00:43:13.361 --> 00:43:14.741 You do need to speak the language. 00:43:14.741 --> 00:43:18.131 You do need to understand why we do what we do and everything. 00:43:18.131 --> 00:43:21.761 So it's, it is important, but even more important than theory, which is 00:43:21.761 --> 00:43:24.431 the first ingredient is the second ingredient, which is practice. 00:43:24.701 --> 00:43:29.771 So doing real design work, you like with everything in life you learn by 00:43:29.771 --> 00:43:32.021 doing and design makes no exception. 00:43:32.021 --> 00:43:37.741 Art it's like in particular important to work as a designer before 00:43:37.741 --> 00:43:43.341 understanding what goes into UX design and Practice is super important and 00:43:43.401 --> 00:43:48.321 it feels very discouraging or daunting or difficult in the beginning. 00:43:48.351 --> 00:43:49.791 Oh my God, where do I start? 00:43:50.241 --> 00:43:51.291 Who will hire me? 00:43:51.471 --> 00:43:52.341 Nobody will hire me. 00:43:52.341 --> 00:43:53.241 I have no background. 00:43:53.241 --> 00:43:54.141 I have no experience. 00:43:54.141 --> 00:43:57.561 How do I find my first project, but through our bootcamp and through all 00:43:57.561 --> 00:44:00.471 the work I've been doing, mentoring people, I I've learned that. 00:44:00.621 --> 00:44:03.751 It's not that it's hard to find the real first design project 00:44:03.751 --> 00:44:05.191 that you can apply the theory. 00:44:06.661 --> 00:44:08.991 I think it's really important to okay. 00:44:08.991 --> 00:44:14.141 Get dual course basic course that gives you the theory or, or, I don't know. 00:44:14.231 --> 00:44:17.411 There are so many, I think you can do it for free on the internet today, 00:44:17.411 --> 00:44:18.911 but you just need some structure. 00:44:19.301 --> 00:44:22.991 Uh, so you gain the theory, you apply it into practice. 00:44:22.991 --> 00:44:27.021 You can do that by reaching out to people in your network asking them if 00:44:27.021 --> 00:44:31.461 they have any sort of design problem with their business, with their, I 00:44:31.461 --> 00:44:35.601 don't know, restaurant online, shop website, presentation, website, whatever. 00:44:35.601 --> 00:44:36.351 It might be. 00:44:36.501 --> 00:44:39.921 Someone in your network has something that you can improve. 00:44:40.341 --> 00:44:43.761 So, and they're where you, that's where you get real experience 00:44:43.761 --> 00:44:44.991 working with a real person. 00:44:44.991 --> 00:44:46.251 So that's all you need to do. 00:44:46.251 --> 00:44:50.001 Just try a little, to reach out to people to find real projects. 00:44:50.031 --> 00:44:56.031 And then the other two ingredients, which I value a lot as well are 00:44:56.061 --> 00:44:59.721 mentorship, which is why I decided to call my bootcamp mentor. 00:45:00.291 --> 00:45:04.911 I think it's, it's really, really important to have someone Giving you 00:45:04.911 --> 00:45:09.471 feedback challenging you, teaching you how to think, because the biggest problem 00:45:09.471 --> 00:45:12.501 when you're starting out is that you don't even know how to look at things. 00:45:12.501 --> 00:45:14.661 So you're doing things, but how do I look at them? 00:45:14.881 --> 00:45:18.921 You are not able to think critically from the get go, and it's totally natural. 00:45:19.101 --> 00:45:21.261 A mentor will teach you how to think critically. 00:45:21.531 --> 00:45:25.311 And which are your blind spots, where are your unknown unknowns? 00:45:25.311 --> 00:45:26.961 Where do you need to do that? 00:45:26.961 --> 00:45:27.831 You haven't done yet. 00:45:27.831 --> 00:45:31.571 Mentors are essential I transitioned without a mentor or I had some 00:45:31.571 --> 00:45:35.731 accidental and informal mentors but I think it's ideal and. 00:45:36.246 --> 00:45:39.376 The strongest foundations are built with mentorship as well. 00:45:39.706 --> 00:45:41.596 And then the last thing is community. 00:45:41.896 --> 00:45:47.556 I, whatever learning journey you're on community will help you stay on track. 00:45:47.916 --> 00:45:51.636 Feel motivated, feel like you're part of a bigger group that's going through the same 00:45:51.636 --> 00:45:56.876 thing helped you figure out some I don't know roadblocks that you need to overcome 00:45:56.876 --> 00:46:01.466 or things that just knowing that someone else is doing the same thing as you are 00:46:01.526 --> 00:46:03.986 at the same time is, is pretty powerful. 00:46:04.016 --> 00:46:08.696 And I feel that design communities are very accessible, very welcoming. 00:46:08.696 --> 00:46:12.086 I feel the design industry as a whole is a very nice place to work 00:46:12.086 --> 00:46:13.886 in because we're working with people. 00:46:13.886 --> 00:46:17.306 So most of the times for nice or just, I dunno, welcoming. 00:46:17.386 --> 00:46:22.366 So to recap, very quickly theory, practice, mentorship, and community. 00:46:22.426 --> 00:46:27.546 This is what you need for a strong transition into UX design in mind. 00:46:29.266 --> 00:46:30.016 Christian: Well, yeah, for sure. 00:46:30.286 --> 00:46:33.406 I feel mentorship is really easy to get nowadays with incredible platforms. 00:46:33.406 --> 00:46:36.436 Like ADP least it's as easy as finding a person in your 00:46:36.436 --> 00:46:37.726 time zone and booking a slot. 00:46:37.936 --> 00:46:38.386 That's it? 00:46:38.686 --> 00:46:41.746 It's, there's no excuse to not have a mentor today. 00:46:41.776 --> 00:46:44.806 If you need one or if you want one or if that's what you need, there is no excuse 00:46:44.806 --> 00:46:49.576 to not go there because it's just, this platform has made it so easy for everyone. 00:46:49.576 --> 00:46:55.306 So I wanted to say whenever people ask, where do I find my first project? 00:46:55.876 --> 00:47:00.586 One of the things that I say to them that I've been involved in the NGO world for 00:47:00.646 --> 00:47:02.686 about 12, 13 years now of volunteering. 00:47:03.166 --> 00:47:05.896 And I've made that connection. 00:47:05.896 --> 00:47:12.376 There are so many NGOs that are need NGOs that do great work that obviously 00:47:12.376 --> 00:47:17.596 cannot afford a full-time designer on stuff that need some somehow. 00:47:18.526 --> 00:47:23.356 And I would argue that that is a better project to do, rather than 00:47:23.356 --> 00:47:26.656 taking one of these, you know, fake clients.com or whatever all these 00:47:26.656 --> 00:47:31.066 sites are because not only you get to work in a real world situation, but 00:47:31.066 --> 00:47:34.996 you also get to have an impact on the world, which is the, one of the reasons 00:47:34.996 --> 00:47:37.636 that some of us started this in the first place is to be able to impact. 00:47:37.726 --> 00:47:42.526 And so I only say there are so many NGOs out there that need design help 00:47:42.646 --> 00:47:47.026 badly that you could be, it could be a mutually beneficial relationship. 00:47:47.476 --> 00:47:48.136 Ioana: Absolutely. 00:47:48.136 --> 00:47:51.746 And I just want to mention that there are even places that kind 00:47:51.746 --> 00:47:54.116 of gather opportunities from NGOs. 00:47:54.446 --> 00:47:57.866 And I would recommend checking out with democracy, lab.com. 00:47:58.076 --> 00:48:03.116 That's a website that has NGO volunteering work opportunity opportunities. 00:48:03.116 --> 00:48:06.116 And another one is UX rescue.org. 00:48:06.146 --> 00:48:10.886 So these two websites are like aggregators of, of opportunities from NGOs. 00:48:10.886 --> 00:48:14.396 And definitely volunteering is a wonderful place to, to build your 00:48:14.396 --> 00:48:15.956 first case study and explore. 00:48:17.036 --> 00:48:17.186 Yeah, 00:48:17.186 --> 00:48:20.936 Christian: we'll put those in the show notes so they can be easily found. 00:48:20.936 --> 00:48:22.076 I, I didn't even know about them. 00:48:22.076 --> 00:48:26.366 See, that's so great that we can now share these resources with more people. 00:48:26.966 --> 00:48:33.006 So before we finish, I really want to talk about UX goodies and you as a brand, over 00:48:33.006 --> 00:48:36.116 the past few years you have built a brand. 00:48:36.116 --> 00:48:41.596 Let's just say it as it is, you've posting a massive amount of content to help 00:48:42.646 --> 00:48:45.666 up and coming designers, become better and not only up and coming designers 00:48:45.666 --> 00:48:48.516 with even people who work in design and have worked inside for a while. 00:48:48.516 --> 00:48:52.706 So I'm just curious how did you think about studying that and why. 00:48:53.741 --> 00:48:57.671 Ioana: Well, I, I feel like I have the long story and the short story. 00:48:57.671 --> 00:49:03.271 So the long story would be, uh, that before creating your goodies, I was 00:49:03.271 --> 00:49:09.041 actually doing some social media work for some rock bands in Romania. 00:49:09.131 --> 00:49:10.781 So that's how it all started. 00:49:10.811 --> 00:49:14.381 I started doing social media without being a social media person, but 00:49:14.741 --> 00:49:18.251 of, I had friends that had this rock band and I said, you know what? 00:49:18.251 --> 00:49:19.271 I'm going to help you grow. 00:49:19.271 --> 00:49:21.311 And social it's really important. 00:49:21.311 --> 00:49:23.981 Even if you have like a live concert, it's nothing. 00:49:23.981 --> 00:49:27.251 If the internet doesn't seed, so I'm going to help you with that. 00:49:27.491 --> 00:49:31.301 So I did social media for this rock band and for two, three years. 00:49:31.361 --> 00:49:32.971 And then I realized that that. 00:49:33.916 --> 00:49:39.436 Um, w what if I do this, like for myself and I do it for myself, and I do it for 00:49:39.436 --> 00:49:44.086 something that I'm passionate about, and I was passionate about UX design. 00:49:44.176 --> 00:49:47.836 So I started building this page where I basically just, I was spending 00:49:47.836 --> 00:49:49.666 a lot of time on Instagram anyhow. 00:49:49.696 --> 00:49:52.246 So I just said, you know what, I'm going to spend this time 00:49:52.276 --> 00:49:53.566 constructively from now on. 00:49:54.106 --> 00:49:58.386 So the point of UX equities was never to have many followers and. 00:49:59.226 --> 00:50:00.426 I didn't think it was possible. 00:50:00.426 --> 00:50:03.966 I thought that UX design was such a small niche and who would ever 00:50:03.966 --> 00:50:07.356 want to like learn UX from Instagram because it's not the place to learn. 00:50:07.836 --> 00:50:10.806 So I didn't start out saying I'm going to build a spade and 00:50:10.806 --> 00:50:12.096 I'm going to be like this brand. 00:50:12.096 --> 00:50:14.196 And I had no idea where the journey would take me. 00:50:14.406 --> 00:50:17.796 It just started like a small, personal project do not waste so much time. 00:50:18.096 --> 00:50:23.326 And to kind of force me to be learning everyday something new or synthesizing 00:50:23.326 --> 00:50:27.256 a topic that was interesting or doing some sort of research work or maybe, I 00:50:27.256 --> 00:50:30.836 don't know, it was just a self-discipline kind of effort for learning. 00:50:31.286 --> 00:50:35.846 And I started doing it and of course it wasn't spectacular for a long time. 00:50:35.846 --> 00:50:40.586 It was like I had 400 followers and I remember very, very clearly that 00:50:41.126 --> 00:50:46.736 I said that if I ever reach 4,000 followers, it's going to be unbelievable. 00:50:46.736 --> 00:50:47.996 I will tell everyone. 00:50:47.996 --> 00:50:51.416 I mean, my, all my friends will know everybody it's yeah. 00:50:51.596 --> 00:50:53.426 It was like a dream to reach 4,000. 00:50:54.811 --> 00:50:57.181 And now I'm at almost 220,000. 00:50:57.181 --> 00:51:01.471 So, so yeah, the thing is that I did it for. 00:51:02.791 --> 00:51:06.871 Not fun, but I actually genuinely enjoy social media. 00:51:06.871 --> 00:51:08.601 So so I think that's one thing. 00:51:08.611 --> 00:51:11.241 Cause many people think that, oh, I should start a personal brand. 00:51:11.261 --> 00:51:14.461 Everybody has their UX, Instagram nowadays, and everybody has a 00:51:14.461 --> 00:51:15.871 personal brand and I have to do it. 00:51:15.871 --> 00:51:19.561 I have to be there otherwise I won't find jobs and I'm not competitive, but if 00:51:19.561 --> 00:51:24.061 you don't like it, maybe that's not your way of, of building a personal brand. 00:51:24.061 --> 00:51:27.751 Maybe you want to write medium articles, which is always superior to creating 00:51:27.751 --> 00:51:29.161 an Instagram post, to be honest. 00:51:29.161 --> 00:51:31.781 So if, when I, when I started writing on medium. 00:51:32.651 --> 00:51:36.341 When, what it means to create long form content and how difficult it is 00:51:36.341 --> 00:51:38.921 to actually build a coherent story. 00:51:38.921 --> 00:51:44.051 In words, not just like bite-sized Instagram posts, one one-pagers 00:51:44.051 --> 00:51:47.651 with these are the resources, which of course those take time as well. 00:51:47.651 --> 00:51:49.811 Cause I, I spent a lot of time on Instagram. 00:51:49.811 --> 00:51:53.281 So the following that I have today is though this, the result of hard 00:51:53.281 --> 00:51:56.701 work, I'm not going to minimize it, that it happened because I spent a 00:51:56.701 --> 00:51:58.591 lot of time building this community. 00:51:58.881 --> 00:52:03.051 But it, you don't have to, I mean, for people looking to build a personal 00:52:03.051 --> 00:52:06.251 brand, there are many, many ways you can start a podcast like you did. 00:52:06.561 --> 00:52:07.971 You can start, I don't know. 00:52:08.001 --> 00:52:09.771 Maybe you're more into yeah. 00:52:09.861 --> 00:52:12.221 Writing whatever works best for you. 00:52:12.221 --> 00:52:14.221 And the most important part is that you have to. 00:52:15.866 --> 00:52:16.916 Christian: Oh, for sure. 00:52:16.966 --> 00:52:20.006 You know, Gary Vaynerchuk talks about, if you want a great content, 00:52:20.126 --> 00:52:21.356 you don't need to get on video. 00:52:21.356 --> 00:52:22.016 Like he does. 00:52:22.076 --> 00:52:23.396 It's just because he's comfortable on video. 00:52:23.396 --> 00:52:24.146 That's why he does it. 00:52:24.176 --> 00:52:28.166 Maybe you don't like to hear your voice, then you should certainly not do podcasts, 00:52:28.376 --> 00:52:31.936 but maybe you're good at writing, but maybe you're good at graphic design you 00:52:31.936 --> 00:52:36.376 just need to find what you would enjoy the most, which is exactly what you said. 00:52:36.376 --> 00:52:37.546 So, um, I like that. 00:52:38.206 --> 00:52:42.586 What have you learned in the years you've made all this content? 00:52:43.666 --> 00:52:44.476 Ioana: A lot of things. 00:52:44.476 --> 00:52:48.796 I think that UX goodies became part of my identity professionally, personally. 00:52:48.796 --> 00:52:53.986 So it's it just, I, if I start talking about what I've learned, I can never stop. 00:52:54.016 --> 00:53:00.256 I I've learned so much, but, um, but I'm going to just maybe tell you the top three 00:53:00.256 --> 00:53:01.816 to three things that come to my mind. 00:53:02.176 --> 00:53:05.896 Um, I've learned that You learn a lot when you teach others? 00:53:05.896 --> 00:53:11.386 So teaching, well, I don't consider myself a UX teacher really, because I think 00:53:11.386 --> 00:53:18.196 teachers are traditionally people that build a course, that's like consistent 00:53:18.246 --> 00:53:19.896 and I don't feel like I did that. 00:53:19.956 --> 00:53:22.056 I have a lot of bite-sized content. 00:53:22.056 --> 00:53:26.286 I have a lot of content everywhere, video in all formats, but it's not like this. 00:53:26.616 --> 00:53:30.036 Like I go to university and for three years I teach people how to do something. 00:53:30.036 --> 00:53:34.136 I don't feel like I have that level of knowledge and expertise and authority. 00:53:34.136 --> 00:53:39.956 So I'm not a teacher, but I feel that every time I try to present a concept or 00:53:40.016 --> 00:53:44.276 promote a concept to my followers, I'm learning, I'm the first one to learn. 00:53:44.636 --> 00:53:46.886 So that's really, really valuable. 00:53:46.886 --> 00:53:50.516 I think this is one of the most important lessons or a thing that I'm grateful for. 00:53:51.056 --> 00:53:53.786 And another important lesson is that having a. 00:53:54.881 --> 00:54:00.071 I hate the word personal brand in a way, because I feel like it's also a bit fat, 00:54:00.071 --> 00:54:04.031 the shies, then everybody talks about personal brand and it feels a bit like 00:54:04.031 --> 00:54:06.251 commercial and for some parts cheap. 00:54:06.251 --> 00:54:09.191 And I really, I'm not a big fan of calling it a personal 00:54:09.191 --> 00:54:10.241 brand, but that's what it is. 00:54:10.241 --> 00:54:14.511 I mean, I'm not going to invent another name for it, but it's great to have 00:54:14.511 --> 00:54:19.821 a personal brand because my network has grown so much and I've met a lot 00:54:19.821 --> 00:54:21.351 of people from all over the world. 00:54:21.591 --> 00:54:22.881 I've made a lot of friends. 00:54:23.091 --> 00:54:24.171 I found you mentors. 00:54:24.321 --> 00:54:25.281 So it's incredible. 00:54:25.551 --> 00:54:30.081 Once you have, once you're comfortable enough to put yourself out there through 00:54:30.081 --> 00:54:33.971 any means, that makes sense to you and you're proud of, and you enjoy, and 00:54:33.981 --> 00:54:37.791 it's go here and with your aligned, with your personality, then once you're 00:54:37.791 --> 00:54:39.141 out there, you're going to meet people. 00:54:39.171 --> 00:54:40.791 And that's the best part of the journey. 00:54:40.791 --> 00:54:43.281 So for me, what mattered most is. 00:54:44.181 --> 00:54:47.061 I got to meet all the people that otherwise I wouldn't 00:54:47.061 --> 00:54:48.591 have known from my podcast. 00:54:48.591 --> 00:54:53.691 Co-host to my mentor, Stephen Gates to, I don't know, even talking to Chris DOE 00:54:53.691 --> 00:54:57.411 was something that I, I wouldn't have had the opportunity if I wasn't there 00:54:57.411 --> 00:54:59.241 consistently putting myself out there. 00:54:59.241 --> 00:55:03.561 So there are a lot of benefits, but the most important part is meeting people. 00:55:04.311 --> 00:55:04.701 Christian: Yeah. 00:55:04.761 --> 00:55:07.481 100% for me, the podcast it's two things. 00:55:07.481 --> 00:55:11.171 One of them is meeting people and the other one is giving back to the community. 00:55:11.171 --> 00:55:13.481 I really want people to listen to this. 00:55:13.481 --> 00:55:16.621 And at the end of the episode, think I've learned something today. 00:55:16.801 --> 00:55:17.431 I've enjoyed that. 00:55:17.461 --> 00:55:20.911 So this 100% and teaching is the best way to learn. 00:55:21.121 --> 00:55:22.531 I agree with you. 00:55:22.531 --> 00:55:24.241 I know we're almost at the one hour mark. 00:55:24.241 --> 00:55:26.101 So I'll ask you the end of podcast questions. 00:55:26.101 --> 00:55:29.761 Two of them, everyone gets these, and then I will, um, let you go. 00:55:29.761 --> 00:55:33.661 And, uh, you know, did they care for the baby who was crying a bit earlier? 00:55:33.661 --> 00:55:38.971 So first one is what is one soft skill that you wish more designers would possess 00:55:39.361 --> 00:55:39.811 Ioana: critical? 00:55:40.721 --> 00:55:44.041 I have absolutely no hesitation, critical thinking. 00:55:44.041 --> 00:55:48.601 I think many designers sometimes forget to like question themselves 00:55:48.631 --> 00:55:50.371 and question the things they're doing. 00:55:50.641 --> 00:55:57.181 And the point is to like, have a rationale and intention behind everything we do. 00:55:57.181 --> 00:55:59.311 So critical thinking is, is the number one. 00:56:00.031 --> 00:56:00.301 Christian: Okay. 00:56:00.361 --> 00:56:01.831 We haven't had that answer just yet. 00:56:01.831 --> 00:56:03.451 So that's good. 00:56:03.751 --> 00:56:06.661 The antibodies, what is one piece of advice that has changed 00:56:06.661 --> 00:56:07.921 your career for the better? 00:56:08.791 --> 00:56:09.211 Ioana: Hmm. 00:56:10.171 --> 00:56:17.101 I gotta think a little, because now it's like overwhelming, uh, ones 00:56:17.151 --> 00:56:19.281 in my mind, I have a lot of things. 00:56:19.281 --> 00:56:20.311 It's hard to pinpoint. 00:56:20.311 --> 00:56:20.761 Just one. 00:56:20.761 --> 00:56:24.181 I think there were a lot of things, but one of them was definitely in 00:56:24.181 --> 00:56:27.451 the beginning of my career, I also created a sort of professional persona. 00:56:27.481 --> 00:56:29.011 We all have a professional persona. 00:56:29.011 --> 00:56:30.631 It's like how our minds work. 00:56:31.021 --> 00:56:36.001 We are show up as something that's a bit controlled and and adjusted 00:56:36.001 --> 00:56:37.621 to work in society and so on. 00:56:38.011 --> 00:56:41.131 So the best piece of advice that I got was from my mentor, 00:56:41.131 --> 00:56:42.451 Stephen Gates, who told me that. 00:56:43.296 --> 00:56:46.416 There is nothing more powerful than being authentic and 00:56:46.446 --> 00:56:49.836 vulnerable and as a designer, but as a professional in general. 00:56:49.866 --> 00:56:54.756 So I was very much afraid to say something that wasn't right or say 00:56:54.756 --> 00:56:57.846 something that's controversial or say something that's uncomfortable. 00:56:58.116 --> 00:57:03.436 And he pushed me to become more authentic and to be a bit more 00:57:03.436 --> 00:57:05.386 confrontational with everything that I do. 00:57:05.386 --> 00:57:08.176 And I was avoiding or, yeah. 00:57:08.176 --> 00:57:13.026 So just being authentic and being you, if that makes sense that that's 00:57:13.026 --> 00:57:14.406 the number one piece of advice 00:57:15.366 --> 00:57:15.846 Christian: for sure. 00:57:15.906 --> 00:57:18.426 That's and it's a good piece of advice and we haven't had that one 00:57:18.456 --> 00:57:20.016 either before, so there you go. 00:57:20.016 --> 00:57:21.126 Tip that is great. 00:57:21.576 --> 00:57:21.756 Yeah. 00:57:21.756 --> 00:57:23.846 And I work in people find out more about you reach out. 00:57:24.756 --> 00:57:26.496 Follow all your content, all of that stuff. 00:57:26.586 --> 00:57:26.796 Yeah. 00:57:26.796 --> 00:57:28.176 Ioana: I think you you should start. 00:57:28.296 --> 00:57:31.206 So I have a lot of content on different platforms. 00:57:31.236 --> 00:57:32.196 I think you should start. 00:57:32.196 --> 00:57:33.846 Everyone should start from Instagram. 00:57:34.116 --> 00:57:38.016 My handle is UX goodies with no point no line or nothing. 00:57:38.016 --> 00:57:39.576 Just UX goodies in one word. 00:57:39.966 --> 00:57:44.736 And, now I'm trying to grow my tech talk because I feel like it, it helps me. 00:57:44.796 --> 00:57:48.276 I laughed at tick-tock and I thought it was like the worst place for 00:57:48.276 --> 00:57:50.016 content in the history of content. 00:57:50.286 --> 00:57:53.346 But now I find it pretty addictive because it, it gives me the 00:57:53.346 --> 00:57:58.236 freedom to not calculate so much or over-engineer the content I create. 00:57:58.236 --> 00:58:01.416 It's just very spontaneous and it is like liberating in a way. 00:58:01.416 --> 00:58:04.056 So I've started to enjoy it and on. 00:58:04.816 --> 00:58:07.126 UX goodies actually, I'm UN squiddies everywhere. 00:58:07.126 --> 00:58:11.506 So if you wanted to find me on Twitter, on Facebook, on Tik dog, wherever it's 00:58:11.506 --> 00:58:12.976 your exclude goodies, it's that symbol. 00:58:12.976 --> 00:58:17.806 And also people can listen to my own podcast, which is called honest UX talks, 00:58:17.896 --> 00:58:20.506 and we have it on all the platforms. 00:58:20.536 --> 00:58:22.006 And I think that's it. 00:58:22.096 --> 00:58:23.806 And also mental design academy. 00:58:23.806 --> 00:58:27.316 So if anyone is listening, that's looking to transition into a UX design 00:58:27.316 --> 00:58:32.026 career or know someone who wants to transition into a UX design career. 00:58:32.356 --> 00:58:34.426 Mento design academy is the way to go. 00:58:36.051 --> 00:58:38.421 Christian: Those will be very easy to find in the show notes. 00:58:38.451 --> 00:58:41.631 We will put everything there so people can easily get ahold of you, 00:58:41.901 --> 00:58:45.861 your honor, this has been a great conversation and a fantastic experience. 00:58:45.861 --> 00:58:47.481 Thank you so much for being on the show. 00:58:47.871 --> 00:58:49.571 This has been really great. 00:58:49.601 --> 00:58:51.471 I'm sure people will learn a lot from this conversation. 00:58:51.471 --> 00:58:54.621 Just as I said earlier, when people finish an episode, what I want them to 00:58:54.621 --> 00:58:56.571 say is I've learned something today. 00:58:56.871 --> 00:58:59.391 So a check this has happened today. 00:58:59.451 --> 00:59:00.411 Learning has happened. 00:59:00.951 --> 00:59:01.221 Thank you 00:59:01.221 --> 00:59:03.201 Ioana: very much, Ioana thank you for inviting me. 00:59:06.531 --> 00:59:07.761 Christian: That's a wrap for today. 00:59:08.061 --> 00:59:11.031 I hope you found this episode useful and that you've learned 00:59:11.031 --> 00:59:13.401 something that you you're ready to implement the work tomorrow. 00:59:13.971 --> 00:59:17.031 If you've enjoyed this as always, it would mean the world to me. 00:59:17.061 --> 00:59:19.971 If you'd share it with your community, if you'd leave a review. 00:59:20.091 --> 00:59:23.901 And of course, if you'd remember to tune in for the next one, peace.