WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.009 --> 00:00:12.969 Rob: Hello, and welcome back to Subspace Radio. 00:00:13.090 --> 00:00:13.389 It is. 00:00:13.389 --> 00:00:17.110 I Rob Lloyd, and joining me as always is my dear friend Kevin Yank. 00:00:17.110 --> 00:00:17.770 How are you? 00:00:18.293 --> 00:00:19.358 Kevin: I'm very well, thank you. 00:00:19.763 --> 00:00:20.093 Rob: Yes. 00:00:20.093 --> 00:00:24.083 Another episode of Star Trek is out there in the universe 00:00:24.083 --> 00:00:26.243 and we are here to review it. 00:00:26.303 --> 00:00:31.553 Episode two of season two of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds. 00:00:32.052 --> 00:00:32.982 Kevin: How's your Latin? 00:00:33.593 --> 00:00:35.183 Rob: I'm not gonna attempt the Latin, Kevin. 00:00:35.183 --> 00:00:36.653 If you want to attempt it, you can. 00:00:36.653 --> 00:00:38.623 Kevin: Ad Astra per Aspera, 00:00:39.263 --> 00:00:40.683 Rob: Well, that's easy for you to say. 00:00:41.173 --> 00:00:45.391 Kevin: To the stars through adversity, I think we were taught in this episode. 00:00:45.686 --> 00:00:49.856 Rob: So yes, Captain Pike is back not in, not on center stage. 00:00:49.856 --> 00:00:52.466 He's definitely present, but more on the side brooding. 00:00:52.616 --> 00:00:58.426 And this is fully focused on our Number One, Una Chin-riley is finally put on 00:00:58.426 --> 00:01:03.086 trial which has sparked our broader debate of courtroom dramas within 00:01:03.086 --> 00:01:05.486 Star Trek, but more of that later. 00:01:05.556 --> 00:01:09.625 Kevin, what's your first thoughts on episode two of Strange New Worlds? 00:01:09.649 --> 00:01:13.069 Kevin: This was some m-mm good Star Trek. 00:01:13.099 --> 00:01:14.059 That's my thought. 00:01:14.291 --> 00:01:15.311 Rob: Wasn't it so 00:01:15.649 --> 00:01:16.939 Kevin: Oh, it's so good. 00:01:17.419 --> 00:01:22.579 This is the kind of Star Trek that I, for a while there, I had given up on ever 00:01:22.579 --> 00:01:24.349 getting this kind of Star Trek again. 00:01:24.429 --> 00:01:30.579 That we could sit in this universe that has been created, trust that it is 00:01:30.609 --> 00:01:37.599 interesting enough to be in, in this place and time and explore some ideas, have some 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:43.719 people debate concepts across tables at each other for a full one hour and have it 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:48.353 be engrossing and emotional and impactful. 00:01:48.593 --> 00:01:51.323 That is my favorite kind of Star Trek. 00:01:51.323 --> 00:01:55.243 And I know we need the phasers, we need the wormholes every now and then. 00:01:55.248 --> 00:02:00.743 We need to keep things interesting with some lighthearted adventure and action. 00:02:00.803 --> 00:02:06.863 But this kind of, dare I say it, cerebral Star Trek is my kind of Star Trek. 00:02:06.863 --> 00:02:08.093 This is what I show up for. 00:02:08.746 --> 00:02:10.186 Rob: Strange New Worlds does it again. 00:02:10.286 --> 00:02:15.086 It is the most modern of modern Star Trek interpretations, but it's the most 00:02:15.116 --> 00:02:17.736 classic of classic topics and issues. 00:02:17.736 --> 00:02:23.436 Star Trek has always been at the cunning edge of political progressive 00:02:23.506 --> 00:02:28.116 exploration and has always been used as a way of exploring contemporary 00:02:28.121 --> 00:02:30.426 issues in this futuristic way. 00:02:30.539 --> 00:02:32.279 Kevin: This is what Star Trek is for. 00:02:32.429 --> 00:02:34.619 What can we learn about ourselves as people? 00:02:35.029 --> 00:02:39.709 Rob: So it's all those type of issues about prejudice, about judgment, about, 00:02:39.929 --> 00:02:45.439 indoctrination about, incarceration, about separation, all these type of issues, 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:50.924 apartheid, all this stuff brought up in a beautiful manner and written beautifully, 00:02:50.924 --> 00:02:57.694 performed excellently and executed at the top, top tier level of its game. 00:02:57.912 --> 00:02:59.082 Kevin: Yes, absolutely. 00:02:59.082 --> 00:03:02.982 And that last point, I think bears repeating especially in light of last 00:03:02.987 --> 00:03:07.502 week's episode that that I thought was let down a bit in the execution. 00:03:07.952 --> 00:03:14.112 Besides the kind of episode this was, which I love, this is also just a 00:03:14.232 --> 00:03:19.842 pinnacle of achievement in terms of the execution, the polish, everything from 00:03:19.842 --> 00:03:25.692 the understated visual effects like an office chair floating in midair through 00:03:25.692 --> 00:03:32.152 to the acting, which our guest star this week, Yetide Badaki, nailed it. 00:03:32.182 --> 00:03:36.892 She had me in tears, a character I have never met before. 00:03:37.132 --> 00:03:43.122 Just everything about this episode, not only was my type, but I dare 00:03:43.122 --> 00:03:47.082 say this is the best courtroom drama we've ever seen in Star Trek. 00:03:47.289 --> 00:03:51.909 Rob: She was particularly good in the way of her performance is there's a 00:03:51.909 --> 00:03:57.279 tendency to have the science fiction style of acting or the genre style 00:03:57.279 --> 00:04:01.359 of acting and whether it's a bit stilted, whether it's a bit theatrical, 00:04:01.359 --> 00:04:06.319 whether it's more show than actual let the audience fill in the dots. 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:07.799 It's more of a general topic. 00:04:07.799 --> 00:04:11.459 If you look at some of the greatest performances in science fiction, 00:04:11.459 --> 00:04:13.259 that they're not rooted in any genre. 00:04:13.539 --> 00:04:20.334 But she brought this incredible, natural process to her performance. 00:04:20.334 --> 00:04:25.014 There was a great poise to her and there was a great energy to her that 00:04:25.014 --> 00:04:30.734 was both appropriate for the genre but also brought that fresh, naturalistic 00:04:30.734 --> 00:04:34.964 element that people could look at that and go, it is sci-fi but it's, 00:04:35.024 --> 00:04:36.944 that's not the main focus of this. 00:04:36.944 --> 00:04:39.854 She was an incredible and filled in the brief of what a guest star 00:04:39.854 --> 00:04:42.824 should be and everyone gave her a standing ovation at the end. 00:04:43.064 --> 00:04:44.114 I think we all joined in. 00:04:44.287 --> 00:04:44.707 Kevin: Yeah. 00:04:44.707 --> 00:04:48.727 So we will be looking at courtroom dramas in Star Trek this week, 00:04:48.727 --> 00:04:53.147 but before we do is there anything that you wanna highlight here that 00:04:53.147 --> 00:04:54.527 stood out to you in this episode? 00:04:54.849 --> 00:04:59.629 Rob: I think every character had their part to play, even Pike's lover from 00:04:59.649 --> 00:05:04.359 episode one who's coming in here, she had her own battle and journeys to go with and 00:05:04.359 --> 00:05:06.969 what she had to endure through Federation. 00:05:07.239 --> 00:05:11.119 Great, little cute moment with Spock causing such a public stir 00:05:12.478 --> 00:05:16.873 Kevin: I, I loved that scene of the Vulcans, quote unquote arguing at 00:05:16.923 --> 00:05:22.023 at a table in the cafe and M'Benga and Ortegas kind of analyzing it 00:05:22.023 --> 00:05:25.318 from a distance and she saying, are you messing with me right now? 00:05:25.538 --> 00:05:26.588 It was hilarious. 00:05:26.798 --> 00:05:29.918 In the moments after that scene, I went, I wonder if that scene 00:05:29.918 --> 00:05:30.938 is gonna be about anything. 00:05:30.938 --> 00:05:35.378 Are we going to end up, is that argument going to have a consequence later? 00:05:35.378 --> 00:05:38.858 And it didn't, it was really that scene was there for comic relief to 00:05:38.913 --> 00:05:43.968 let the audience breathe out before the next dose of courtroom drama. 00:05:43.968 --> 00:05:45.528 But for that, I loved it. 00:05:45.528 --> 00:05:49.858 And it, it gave M'Benga and Ortegas something to do other than sing 00:05:50.158 --> 00:05:53.193 Una's praises on the witness stand, and yeah, great to see them. 00:05:53.538 --> 00:05:58.698 Rob: That was a good moment representation of the comedy of the Vulcan personality 00:05:58.698 --> 00:06:02.498 as opposed to last week with the cramming in of the, what's your 00:06:02.498 --> 00:06:04.198 catchphrase when you do the ship. 00:06:04.253 --> 00:06:05.843 Yeah, beautiful moments, there. 00:06:06.073 --> 00:06:11.033 A nice bit of tension between April and Pike and bit more delving 00:06:11.033 --> 00:06:14.983 into Robert April being captain of the Enterprise before Pike and 00:06:15.041 --> 00:06:18.371 Kevin: Already a hint of that future prequel, to the prequel, to the 00:06:18.371 --> 00:06:19.961 prequel that we're going to get. 00:06:20.591 --> 00:06:21.401 Robert April's 00:06:21.543 --> 00:06:22.983 Rob: which will be called Boldly Go. 00:06:23.086 --> 00:06:25.936 So yeah, everything was firing off really nicely. 00:06:25.936 --> 00:06:30.476 I love the exploration of the Illyrian culture and the persecution. 00:06:30.476 --> 00:06:36.451 Such a horrifying, heartbreaking story about hiding, who you are 00:06:36.451 --> 00:06:38.041 and those who can and those who 00:06:38.364 --> 00:06:39.264 Kevin: Yeah, it got real. 00:06:39.264 --> 00:06:45.094 They moved past the abstract idea of, racism in the Federation, into what 00:06:45.094 --> 00:06:46.654 would that actually mean in practice? 00:06:46.654 --> 00:06:49.324 In what way would those people suffer in that society? 00:06:49.339 --> 00:06:50.269 And we got to see it. 00:06:50.269 --> 00:06:54.469 We got to see the scene of baby Una sitting there with a broken 00:06:54.469 --> 00:06:57.559 leg, not being able to get it treated and it was hard to watch. 00:06:57.876 --> 00:07:01.266 Rob: Yeah, and Rebecca Romijn just is, yeah, is killing it. 00:07:01.266 --> 00:07:02.946 She's doing such a good job. 00:07:02.951 --> 00:07:07.716 And that's a credit to her cuz you know for so long she was the model turned 00:07:08.616 --> 00:07:13.266 and was employed like as Mystique in the X-Men movies for her appearance. 00:07:13.266 --> 00:07:17.316 But she has finally been able to go no, no, no. 00:07:17.376 --> 00:07:19.056 I've got some skills here. 00:07:19.056 --> 00:07:19.776 I've got some talent 00:07:19.814 --> 00:07:21.224 Kevin: She keeps surprising me. 00:07:21.734 --> 00:07:27.674 Every time we see an episode featuring Una, I come away impressed at how, 00:07:27.734 --> 00:07:29.474 how much I like the character. 00:07:29.504 --> 00:07:30.284 And I was like, wow. 00:07:30.404 --> 00:07:32.624 I knew I liked you, but I didn't know I liked you that much. 00:07:32.654 --> 00:07:35.969 And this episode brings that to a new high. 00:07:36.239 --> 00:07:40.564 The long soliloquy she gave when her attorney put her on 00:07:40.564 --> 00:07:42.154 the witness stand by surprise. 00:07:42.364 --> 00:07:45.214 One of my small objections to the logic of this episode. 00:07:45.214 --> 00:07:49.684 Would your defense attorney really put you on the witness stand without briefing you? 00:07:50.344 --> 00:07:51.694 That's not a real life thing. 00:07:51.914 --> 00:07:52.334 But 00:07:52.384 --> 00:07:55.614 Rob: It's very Perry Mason or Matlock style of it. 00:07:55.644 --> 00:07:55.934 Yeah. 00:07:56.443 --> 00:07:59.683 Kevin: But considering where some other courtroom dramas in Star Trek 00:07:59.683 --> 00:08:03.143 have gone over the years this was one of the more realistic ones. 00:08:03.143 --> 00:08:06.473 But once she got up there on the witness stand and she started telling her story 00:08:06.523 --> 00:08:08.563 I had this moment of, Oh, here we go. 00:08:08.563 --> 00:08:12.163 When she started with the motto of the Federation, I was like, eh, this might 00:08:12.163 --> 00:08:14.653 be a little overwritten, but she got me. 00:08:15.133 --> 00:08:16.453 The emotion was there. 00:08:16.453 --> 00:08:19.803 It pulled me in and I was crying along with her, by the end. 00:08:20.094 --> 00:08:20.844 Rob: Beautiful episode. 00:08:20.874 --> 00:08:21.924 Absolutely beautiful. 00:08:21.929 --> 00:08:23.084 It was an easy watch 00:08:23.136 --> 00:08:27.186 Kevin: Did you notice that the courtroom was the reused Starfleet 00:08:27.216 --> 00:08:29.466 headquarters bridge from Discovery? 00:08:29.704 --> 00:08:30.664 Rob: I didn't. 00:08:30.793 --> 00:08:32.893 Kevin: Oh, you didn't because you haven't seen the latest 00:08:32.893 --> 00:08:34.423 season of Star Trek Discovery. 00:08:34.983 --> 00:08:35.273 Yeah. 00:08:35.443 --> 00:08:40.453 So, Yeah, stay tuned for your rewatch that room is going to be very familiar 00:08:40.503 --> 00:08:46.123 that room, that is ring shaped with a big open space in the middle that is 00:08:46.603 --> 00:08:48.823 the bridge of Starfleet headquarters. 00:08:48.823 --> 00:08:52.843 And that open space is filled by a galactic map in Discovery. 00:08:52.893 --> 00:08:54.573 Here, it wasn't really filled by anything. 00:08:54.573 --> 00:08:59.638 They just shot around it and across it, and it made it a very strangely 00:08:59.638 --> 00:09:02.978 claustrophobic, for me anyway, courtroom. 00:09:03.008 --> 00:09:06.068 Although it was a large space, everyone was like pressed up 00:09:06.068 --> 00:09:08.738 against the wall at all times. 00:09:08.948 --> 00:09:13.344 And uh, the lawyer walking around the side to put the book on the desk, 00:09:13.344 --> 00:09:17.629 it was like, felt very intrusive that she's going on a long walk. 00:09:18.079 --> 00:09:21.229 You can't just pretend you accidentally ended up here. 00:09:21.259 --> 00:09:23.989 This is where you intended to get if you're walking all 00:09:23.989 --> 00:09:25.009 the way around that ring. 00:09:25.259 --> 00:09:27.179 So it was very, very strange. 00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:29.369 I couldn't decide if I liked it or disliked it. 00:09:29.729 --> 00:09:34.979 I thought because it is so conspicuously the same room we have seen recently 00:09:34.979 --> 00:09:38.239 in discovery, I felt it was a bit of a shame because it took me out of it, 00:09:38.319 --> 00:09:43.119 it broke the reality that this room that exists in the 32nd century also 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:46.749 exists here in the uh, 23rd somehow. 00:09:46.909 --> 00:09:48.169 But that was a minor thing. 00:09:48.849 --> 00:09:55.299 I think what I liked the most is the legal machinations of this episode. 00:09:55.299 --> 00:10:00.129 That trick they polled of, yeah, she may have technically broke this law, 00:10:00.729 --> 00:10:07.239 but there is also another law that applies equally and it is our asylum law. 00:10:07.269 --> 00:10:10.629 And you get to choose which one you apply here. 00:10:10.909 --> 00:10:15.219 I'm no legal expert, but as a Joe Schmo viewing public of Star Trek, 00:10:15.549 --> 00:10:21.669 it at least was, it felt to me like a convincing reason for a court case 00:10:21.669 --> 00:10:23.966 to not go in the expected direction. 00:10:24.086 --> 00:10:26.376 It felt like a plot twist that I could buy. 00:10:26.669 --> 00:10:29.549 Rob: They called it out, which I really appreciated. 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.509 At the end, they just said, Una said it herself, that we, 00:10:33.749 --> 00:10:35.459 this was just a technicality. 00:10:35.829 --> 00:10:41.259 And the real work carries on, that we now need to build up this recognition for 00:10:41.264 --> 00:10:43.779 the Illyrian people, and it's a start. 00:10:43.818 --> 00:10:46.368 Kevin: That they found that was really impressive to me. 00:10:46.368 --> 00:10:51.078 Because I think I said at the end of last season, my worry is that we know Julian 00:10:51.078 --> 00:10:55.723 Bashir is discriminated against in Deep Space Nine a hundred years from now. 00:10:55.933 --> 00:11:02.043 So what satisfying end is this arc of Una's is going to lead us to? 00:11:02.043 --> 00:11:06.753 I couldn't see the space between, she gets drummed out of Starfleet because 00:11:07.053 --> 00:11:11.223 the Federation is still racist at this point, and we break the canon. 00:11:11.243 --> 00:11:12.888 And they threaded that needle. 00:11:13.128 --> 00:11:16.848 In fact, it was so deft I can only assume they worked out how they 00:11:16.848 --> 00:11:20.578 were gonna thread it when they wrote the ending to the previous season. 00:11:21.018 --> 00:11:26.278 Hiding the fact of the asylum law applying in plain sight 00:11:26.398 --> 00:11:28.018 was a beautiful magic trick. 00:11:28.018 --> 00:11:29.838 And really brought the episode home for me. 00:11:30.184 --> 00:11:34.954 Rob: Just the cold, hard reality of the fact that the laws were created 00:11:34.959 --> 00:11:39.454 for this good to stop the horrors of the Eugenic Wars coming back, which 00:11:39.454 --> 00:11:43.854 is fascinating to read up on from what is touched on from, um, Space 00:11:43.854 --> 00:11:44.944 Seed, and all that type of stuff. 00:11:44.974 --> 00:11:48.844 But to see that lofty heights of going, we have set up these laws to 00:11:48.849 --> 00:11:54.034 protect us from a war happening again, but how that filters down to everyday 00:11:54.034 --> 00:12:00.384 people, that it becomes, people become labeled and, slurs are, blazoned 00:12:00.384 --> 00:12:05.064 across their doors and they have to go into hiding to get medical attention. 00:12:05.064 --> 00:12:11.484 Just from the lofty heights of not wanting to start another galactic war down to pure 00:12:11.484 --> 00:12:13.404 prejudice and racism showing its head. 00:12:13.409 --> 00:12:18.774 It's wonderfully fascinating blend of gray within the bright colors of 00:12:18.774 --> 00:12:23.994 this utopian future, which it isn't tarnished by it because it's what is 00:12:23.999 --> 00:12:29.484 being fought at to keep that vision of a bright future, which is masterful. 00:12:29.514 --> 00:12:33.374 That's what Star Trek is does so well stuff like that, what really 00:12:33.379 --> 00:12:37.544 brings out that the beautiful grays of this bright new future. 00:12:37.914 --> 00:12:42.589 Kevin: The thing that I most narrowed my eyes at suspiciously in the legalese 00:12:42.589 --> 00:12:46.189 they were throwing around was, in the asylum law, they said that people 00:12:46.216 --> 00:12:48.286 may seek safety within Starfleet. 00:12:48.546 --> 00:12:52.246 And that seemed like a strange thing to have on the law books. 00:12:52.246 --> 00:12:56.986 Cuz if you, if you transpose that to today, that's like the US Navy 00:12:56.986 --> 00:13:01.636 having a law on the books that says that people in a war zone may seek 00:13:01.636 --> 00:13:05.596 safety within the US Navy, which seems like a weird place to seek safety. 00:13:05.596 --> 00:13:10.086 Like the the separation between the military organization and the 00:13:10.086 --> 00:13:11.616 state is very interesting there. 00:13:11.886 --> 00:13:16.376 My way I'm explain that in my head is that maybe this is like an old law that 00:13:16.381 --> 00:13:19.991 was on the books before the Federation, when it was just Starfleet out there 00:13:19.991 --> 00:13:23.681 roaming the stars, in which case it would make sense to have a policy around 00:13:23.681 --> 00:13:26.321 asylum that was specific to Starfleet. 00:13:26.571 --> 00:13:31.871 And the idea that Una's lawyer would have found this really old law in the 00:13:31.871 --> 00:13:36.241 books is especially tickling to me, if that's uh, if that's what we accept. 00:13:36.544 --> 00:13:40.024 Rob: Yeah, it's glowing praise all round for an excellently written, 00:13:40.084 --> 00:13:42.744 beautiful executed piece of television. 00:13:42.794 --> 00:13:45.764 Whether it be sci-fi or not, it's just wonderful. 00:13:45.764 --> 00:13:51.899 And that led us down the the much easier path of previous Star Trek episodes. 00:13:52.109 --> 00:13:54.749 I type in Star Trek courtroom episodes. 00:13:54.929 --> 00:13:56.609 I got so many lists. 00:13:56.699 --> 00:13:58.169 Ti Yeah. 00:13:58.589 --> 00:14:01.049 Typing in Captain Away last week, yeah. 00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:02.453 Not so much this one. 00:14:02.453 --> 00:14:03.173 There was a plethora 00:14:03.256 --> 00:14:06.016 Kevin: Well, we, we have to test ourselves now and then, but when they 00:14:06.016 --> 00:14:10.341 give us a layup like this, we also need to we need to take the opportunity. 00:14:10.551 --> 00:14:14.491 We're not gonna have a better opportunity to talk about Starfleet courtroom 00:14:14.491 --> 00:14:16.341 procedures than we have here today. 00:14:16.754 --> 00:14:21.314 Rob: We've touched on episodes with a courtroom feel or have been 00:14:21.314 --> 00:14:25.124 mentioned in previous episodes, like we have mentioned The Menagerie. 00:14:25.334 --> 00:14:26.924 We've mentioned Measure of a Man. 00:14:26.954 --> 00:14:30.934 We've mentioned a couple of others in passing, but we have not dedicated 00:14:30.934 --> 00:14:33.364 an entire episode to the courtroom. 00:14:33.644 --> 00:14:34.574 Kevin: Let's not hold back. 00:14:34.574 --> 00:14:37.154 I'm gonna, I'm gonna repeat at least one of the ones that you 00:14:37.154 --> 00:14:39.194 mentioned in my uh, choices. 00:14:39.199 --> 00:14:43.128 But look, we said last week, new rule: Enterprise goes first, cuz 00:14:43.128 --> 00:14:44.953 it's ear earliest in the timeline. 00:14:44.953 --> 00:14:47.953 So do either of us have an Enterprise episode? 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.699 Rob: I specifically picked an Enterprise because I went, you know what? 00:14:51.849 --> 00:14:53.829 I'm doing a Star trek podcast. 00:14:54.009 --> 00:14:58.439 We are into our second season of Strange New Worlds, and I've only, I 00:14:58.439 --> 00:15:03.929 started watching Enterprise and then gave up, and so I went, you know what? 00:15:03.929 --> 00:15:05.669 No, let's go in and do this, Rob. 00:15:05.669 --> 00:15:06.719 Let's take this seriously. 00:15:06.719 --> 00:15:12.749 And it's appeared in every single one of the lists that I've found online, 00:15:12.989 --> 00:15:14.429 and it's quite high up in the list. 00:15:14.429 --> 00:15:19.109 So I've gone with Judgment season two, episode 19. 00:15:20.108 --> 00:15:20.828 Kevin: Ooh. 00:15:20.858 --> 00:15:22.148 Yeah, good one. 00:15:22.488 --> 00:15:27.308 This one always comes to mind because around the time this aired, Star Trek was 00:15:27.308 --> 00:15:29.408 just getting serious about the Internet. 00:15:29.438 --> 00:15:34.718 Like they had a website that they updated every week for the first time, and uh, 00:15:34.748 --> 00:15:39.184 they were releasing audio commentaries along with significant episodes. 00:15:40.218 --> 00:15:43.901 And there was an audio commentary by, I believe, the writers of this 00:15:43.901 --> 00:15:46.961 episode released at the same time as the episode so that you could 00:15:46.961 --> 00:15:49.871 watch the episode and then you could re-watch it with the audio commentary. 00:15:49.931 --> 00:15:55.574 And that audio commentary was lost when the Star Trek website changed hands and 00:15:55.574 --> 00:15:57.554 was torn down and rebuilt from scratch. 00:15:57.884 --> 00:16:01.364 But I believe Trek Core has an archival copy of it. 00:16:01.369 --> 00:16:04.864 So if anyone is following our advice and watching Judgment this week, you can 00:16:04.869 --> 00:16:07.264 also pick up that audio commentary too. 00:16:07.894 --> 00:16:09.334 I'll link to it in the show notes. 00:16:09.334 --> 00:16:10.234 Rob: Yeah, definitely. 00:16:10.234 --> 00:16:16.104 So to recite the IMDB outline of this story, After Enterprise lends aid to 00:16:16.104 --> 00:16:20.544 a group of accused rebels, Captain Archer faces a tribunal and charges of 00:16:20.544 --> 00:16:23.244 conspiracy against the Klingon Empire. 00:16:23.883 --> 00:16:28.253 Kevin: Yes, this is what I like to think of as a flavor of Star Trek VI. 00:16:28.339 --> 00:16:28.939 Rob: Oh, yes. 00:16:28.969 --> 00:16:34.519 Yeah, it definitely has the easter egg of using the exact same set and some of 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:37.166 the props from uh, Undiscovered Country. 00:16:37.416 --> 00:16:40.406 Now, for me, there are some incredible stuff in here. 00:16:40.406 --> 00:16:43.746 There's some amazing stuff in here, but for me also, it's a 00:16:43.746 --> 00:16:47.996 case of understanding why I never really connected with Enterprise. 00:16:48.143 --> 00:16:50.993 All the elements are there, but it just 00:16:51.196 --> 00:16:55.096 Kevin: It's got your general Martok Rob, how could you not like. 00:16:55.283 --> 00:16:58.103 Rob: Oh, who is outstanding. 00:16:58.283 --> 00:16:59.513 Outstanding. 00:16:59.746 --> 00:17:01.246 Kevin: JG Hertzler plays. 00:17:01.246 --> 00:17:02.056 Kolos 00:17:02.078 --> 00:17:04.988 Rob: Yes, who is outstanding. 00:17:05.018 --> 00:17:07.958 Even though in many of the shots you can clearly see the 00:17:07.958 --> 00:17:10.328 Klingon bumps rising on the side. 00:17:10.478 --> 00:17:13.688 The makeup hasn't, the makeup hasn't been stuck down properly and they 00:17:13.688 --> 00:17:14.738 went, we don't have enough time. 00:17:14.738 --> 00:17:15.218 Go with it. 00:17:15.718 --> 00:17:20.458 He is frigging amazing in this episode, incredible stuff, and has the best 00:17:20.458 --> 00:17:26.913 monologue that I've seen talking about a race within Star Trek since David 00:17:26.913 --> 00:17:32.263 Warner's speech as the Cardassian interrogator Like just amazing. 00:17:32.263 --> 00:17:36.883 But it just, it's an interesting way of starting within the trial and 00:17:36.883 --> 00:17:38.593 then the flashbacks to what happened. 00:17:38.593 --> 00:17:42.823 And it's an old trait, used many times of the different point of view. 00:17:42.973 --> 00:17:47.743 So the Klingon gives his point of view of what happened, which is very clearly 00:17:48.854 --> 00:17:50.534 Kevin: That's simplified if you will. 00:17:50.591 --> 00:17:52.061 for legal expediency. 00:17:52.159 --> 00:17:55.789 Rob: It's very much a Archer focused episode, so we see the doctor a little 00:17:55.789 --> 00:18:00.219 bit in a really nice tense, there's almost espionagal, that's a real 00:18:00.219 --> 00:18:02.179 word, type of scene at the start. 00:18:02.179 --> 00:18:05.459 And you've got to Paul and the others up on Enterprise, 00:18:05.459 --> 00:18:07.019 sorting it out in the background. 00:18:07.069 --> 00:18:10.844 But it's really a two-hander really with Scott Bakula and our 00:18:10.844 --> 00:18:12.924 dear old Martok with a different 00:18:13.083 --> 00:18:13.443 Kevin: Yep. 00:18:13.503 --> 00:18:18.723 Xenopolycythemia The, uh, disease that Phlox mentions when he's 00:18:18.723 --> 00:18:23.313 visiting Archer in his cell, I believe is the fatal disease that Dr. 00:18:23.313 --> 00:18:27.693 McCoy had in for the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky way back in 00:18:27.693 --> 00:18:30.333 the original series, so a deep cut there. 00:18:30.418 --> 00:18:31.798 Rob: Nice little reference there. 00:18:31.803 --> 00:18:34.018 So there's a lot of great stuff there. 00:18:34.018 --> 00:18:38.778 And of course they're sent to Rura Penthe at the end, but it's kind of 00:18:38.891 --> 00:18:40.766 Kevin: It's a low budget Rura Penthe isn't it? 00:18:40.766 --> 00:18:42.506 Rob: Very low budget. 00:18:42.556 --> 00:18:46.216 I felt like I was kicked in the knees slash balls watching it. 00:18:47.686 --> 00:18:52.679 And despite how difficult it was for them to get Kirk and Spock off 00:18:52.778 --> 00:18:53.378 Kevin: Oh yeah. 00:18:53.434 --> 00:18:54.839 Rob: Rura Penthe to just 00:18:55.778 --> 00:18:58.028 Kevin: We bribed a, a transport captain. 00:18:58.086 --> 00:19:00.126 Rob: Yeah, he just walks in, he goes, all right, let's go, shall we? 00:19:01.738 --> 00:19:02.028 Kevin: Well, 00:19:02.028 --> 00:19:05.868 This is why they tightened up security at Rura Penthe. 00:19:05.913 --> 00:19:07.173 Rob: It's all because of that. 00:19:07.178 --> 00:19:07.743 Thank you. 00:19:08.113 --> 00:19:10.423 So yeah, it was a bit of a nothing end. 00:19:10.513 --> 00:19:12.703 You just go, ah, ju… oh, okay. 00:19:12.803 --> 00:19:17.633 But for me, the highlight is not so much the trial, which is the focus, 00:19:17.663 --> 00:19:21.103 and we always know that it was gonna be a dodgy trial anyway, but they just, 00:19:21.703 --> 00:19:25.003 there wasn't any confrontation of it. 00:19:25.093 --> 00:19:27.523 It was more just, this is the process you gotta go through it. 00:19:27.523 --> 00:19:29.653 Let's just get you to the prison and get 00:19:29.751 --> 00:19:32.811 Kevin: Yeah, I think it needed one more hook for me. 00:19:32.911 --> 00:19:38.944 When the thing that this episode rests on, is Archer going to be able to tell 00:19:38.949 --> 00:19:45.634 his version of events because the Klingon legal system is stacked against him, and 00:19:45.634 --> 00:19:50.104 even his own advocate is not interested in his version of events because they 00:19:50.104 --> 00:19:53.414 are so used to the presumption of guilt. 00:19:54.404 --> 00:20:00.854 And in the end, the way Archer convinces his advocate to listen to 00:20:00.854 --> 00:20:04.259 him is to me, somewhat unsatisfying. 00:20:04.499 --> 00:20:08.549 Archer says something like why don't you care about justice? 00:20:08.669 --> 00:20:13.209 And his advocate goes, Don't be so quick to judge me. 00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:15.119 I used to care about justice. 00:20:15.124 --> 00:20:16.229 And Archer says, really? 00:20:16.229 --> 00:20:17.339 And that's basically it. 00:20:17.399 --> 00:20:19.589 That's the entire convincing that he has to do. 00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:23.129 At that point, the advocate basically talks himself into it and goes, 00:20:23.159 --> 00:20:26.759 oh yeah, I remember when these courts were willing to listen. 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:31.389 And they weren't just a tool for the military to to advance their agenda. 00:20:31.449 --> 00:20:37.369 And it the fact that Archer does very little in order to secure his own 00:20:37.374 --> 00:20:42.739 freedom here, it's, this is something that happens now and then in Star Trek 00:20:42.744 --> 00:20:50.449 stories, I find, is that the, the story kind of advances on its own and there 00:20:50.449 --> 00:20:52.369 is no sense of it having been earned. 00:20:52.603 --> 00:20:54.583 Rob: Scott Bakula is an incredible actor. 00:20:54.633 --> 00:20:58.533 His best work is in Quantum Leap, where he does everything. 00:20:58.533 --> 00:20:59.463 He does dramatic work. 00:20:59.463 --> 00:21:00.333 He does comedy work. 00:21:00.333 --> 00:21:00.963 He sings. 00:21:00.963 --> 00:21:01.593 He dances. 00:21:01.593 --> 00:21:03.303 He does fight choreography. 00:21:03.513 --> 00:21:05.193 He does car chases. 00:21:05.303 --> 00:21:07.413 He impersonates women. 00:21:07.413 --> 00:21:09.633 He plays a monkey In one episode. 00:21:09.633 --> 00:21:11.343 He plays a vampire in one episode. 00:21:11.493 --> 00:21:11.913 He does, 00:21:12.866 --> 00:21:14.606 Kevin: He is definitely up for anything. 00:21:14.676 --> 00:21:19.326 Rob: But it's amazing in watching this as the lead character in a Star 00:21:19.326 --> 00:21:22.296 Trek show, he is such a passenger. 00:21:22.543 --> 00:21:25.453 He does nothing to take hold of the story. 00:21:25.783 --> 00:21:29.113 So much so that he, everything happens to him. 00:21:29.653 --> 00:21:30.853 Even his escape. 00:21:31.063 --> 00:21:36.483 He has not, he just like at the end of it, was it is it Dominic Keating, whatever the 00:21:36.533 --> 00:21:37.469 Kevin: Malcolm Reed. 00:21:38.018 --> 00:21:40.118 Rob: Yeah, comes in, just goes, all right, we're going now. 00:21:40.148 --> 00:21:42.008 And so we've done all this for you. 00:21:42.008 --> 00:21:45.668 And he's, he just swans through this 45 minute episode. 00:21:45.728 --> 00:21:49.478 He's the captain and he's just, he's like lethargic. 00:21:49.478 --> 00:21:50.678 Is he on medication? 00:21:50.704 --> 00:21:52.384 It's really quite disheartening. 00:21:52.384 --> 00:21:54.201 Cause I know Bacula can step up. 00:21:54.201 --> 00:21:58.974 Bacula could so have a, a speech to rival Patrick Stewart. 00:21:59.244 --> 00:22:04.404 He could do some, really hardcore muscle work like like a Avery Brooks. 00:22:04.454 --> 00:22:09.214 He could do like some classy, sassy stuff like Kate Mulgrew, for heaven's sake. 00:22:09.214 --> 00:22:11.704 But he is just so passive here. 00:22:12.229 --> 00:22:15.799 That the highlight of the performance is Kolos's speech, 00:22:15.979 --> 00:22:17.119 and I've got it quoted here. 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:17.869 It's wonderful. 00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:22.009 "My father was a teacher, my mother, a biologist at the university. 00:22:22.309 --> 00:22:24.229 They encouraged me to take up law. 00:22:24.439 --> 00:22:28.309 Now all young people want to do is take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. 00:22:28.819 --> 00:22:31.999 They're told there's honor in victory, any victory. 00:22:32.299 --> 00:22:35.719 What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? 00:22:35.989 --> 00:22:39.559 Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would've been lauded as a hero of the 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:42.859 Empire for murdering helpless refugees. 00:22:43.159 --> 00:22:47.899 We were a great society not so long ago, when honor was earned 00:22:47.899 --> 00:22:52.249 through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed." 00:22:52.459 --> 00:22:53.419 And that's coming from a 00:22:53.478 --> 00:22:54.548 Kevin: Yeah, it's pretty Good. 00:22:55.118 --> 00:22:59.758 that's probably some of the deepest implied change to Klingon society 00:22:59.763 --> 00:23:04.438 that we get in all of Star Trek, like Klingons, they don't really have an arc. 00:23:04.628 --> 00:23:08.648 And we've talked about the Cardassians now and then about how we get these 00:23:08.648 --> 00:23:13.448 glimpses of how they used to be and how they are today is not how they used to be. 00:23:14.168 --> 00:23:15.908 This is not their finest hour. 00:23:16.058 --> 00:23:20.198 Whereas Klingons, we are told again and again, this is their finest hour. 00:23:20.198 --> 00:23:21.818 The this is their greatest glory. 00:23:21.818 --> 00:23:26.878 And this hint that there maybe was a different version of Klingon culture 00:23:26.883 --> 00:23:29.678 before this is not something we often get. 00:23:29.683 --> 00:23:35.588 I think Star Trek might be a little afraid to break what they have in Klingons. 00:23:35.648 --> 00:23:40.148 And yeah, they, we get a hint at something more here, that's very tantalizing. 00:23:41.344 --> 00:23:46.354 Rob: It's so tantalizing, especially cause we move ahead to say, looking at Discovery 00:23:46.454 --> 00:23:53.634 season one, where they knuckle down on the horror and the monstrous type of nature 00:23:53.634 --> 00:23:56.684 of the Klingons, and it just doesn't work. 00:23:56.684 --> 00:23:59.419 You're there going, look at this incredible moment, the only 00:23:59.569 --> 00:24:03.649 incredible moment in a quite bland episode of Star Trek that 00:24:03.654 --> 00:24:05.539 could have achieved so much more. 00:24:05.789 --> 00:24:08.489 It goes to show that you could see the show's tired. 00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:13.979 This is filmed after, a good 10 years after when Next Gen was at its height 00:24:14.069 --> 00:24:18.696 or when Deep Space Nine was close to beginning, but it looked cheaper. 00:24:18.876 --> 00:24:21.546 It looked like it was done earlier. 00:24:21.576 --> 00:24:23.987 It looked like it was filmed in the mid eighties. 00:24:24.044 --> 00:24:29.144 Kevin: Star Trek VI is what hurts this episode the most, in my mind, because here 00:24:29.144 --> 00:24:31.424 we have a great example of less is more. 00:24:31.484 --> 00:24:35.714 There is much less of that Klingon courtroom in Star Trek VI, but 00:24:35.714 --> 00:24:39.194 it is so much more powerful in part because it's darker. 00:24:39.254 --> 00:24:40.664 We see less of it. 00:24:41.114 --> 00:24:44.264 It is more cinematic, more is left to the imagination. 00:24:44.294 --> 00:24:50.804 It is a scarier place in Star Trek VI than it is here where it is de-fanged because 00:24:50.804 --> 00:24:56.294 we see behind the scenes we see into every corner, we are given a long time to look 00:24:56.294 --> 00:25:00.554 around in that crowd and realize they're not actually that scary, they're just 00:25:00.554 --> 00:25:02.594 Klingon rabble who will shout at anything. 00:25:03.134 --> 00:25:07.604 And the judge is less scary because he talks more. 00:25:07.864 --> 00:25:12.514 He engages with with the idea of justice in a way that the, 00:25:12.581 --> 00:25:17.921 Rob: And he's not hidden in the background with almost his white eyes going, Silence. 00:25:17.951 --> 00:25:18.191 Yeah. 00:25:18.349 --> 00:25:23.049 Kevin: So if Star Trek VI had never been done, I feel like I would enjoy this 00:25:23.049 --> 00:25:26.469 episode a lot more because we would be seeing something we'd not seen before and 00:25:26.469 --> 00:25:29.943 we wouldn't have that stronger example of the same thing to hold it up against. 00:25:30.701 --> 00:25:35.666 Rob: Yeah, so for me, it's it just fell short of what it could have done and it 00:25:35.666 --> 00:25:42.086 had its lead very passive, but a standout performance from from Martok as a Kolos, 00:25:42.136 --> 00:25:47.976 and an incredible speech of what could, what we could have, Kevin, with the 00:25:48.006 --> 00:25:53.806 Klingons, if the, if they just listen to their own history and go, we can have 00:25:53.836 --> 00:25:59.876 the Klingons as a deep, rich culture as opposed to just a one note archetype. 00:26:00.619 --> 00:26:03.819 Kevin: From Enterprise and I'm glad it wasn't me complaining about 00:26:03.819 --> 00:26:05.259 Enterprise for once this week. 00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:06.849 Thank you for taking us there, Rob. 00:26:07.126 --> 00:26:11.866 Rob: I should play my part in this Star Trek podcast and actually watch all of it. 00:26:11.986 --> 00:26:15.706 And that means so that I am aware that does mean I have to admit to, I will 00:26:15.706 --> 00:26:17.346 have to watch Discovery Season four. 00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:20.039 Kevin: A nice, standalone episode of Enterprise as well. 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:23.099 I think it is a good way to get a taste of what Enterprise was. 00:26:23.136 --> 00:26:24.366 This is an early episode of 00:26:24.423 --> 00:26:26.023 Rob: Well, That was, but that's season two. 00:26:26.053 --> 00:26:28.273 That's season two episode 19. 00:26:28.453 --> 00:26:32.413 So they should be, the the other episode I'm gonna talk about is from 00:26:32.413 --> 00:26:37.463 a Star Trek series early on, so like within the first seven episodes. 00:26:37.553 --> 00:26:41.153 But this is like where it should be quite established. 00:26:41.473 --> 00:26:45.793 And I'm there going, no, this, it feels like an early season one type episode. 00:26:45.831 --> 00:26:50.001 Kevin: Well, I'm going to take us to the original series and uh, the 00:26:50.001 --> 00:26:54.261 episode that this week's episode of Strange New World owes so much to, 00:26:54.261 --> 00:26:59.831 and that is Court Martial, season one, episode 14 of the original series. 00:27:00.281 --> 00:27:06.101 This is where Captain Kirk is put on trial for the murder of one of his crew members. 00:27:06.151 --> 00:27:12.466 The episode opens with the ship docking for repairs after an ion 00:27:12.466 --> 00:27:14.596 storm and the ship is damaged. 00:27:14.916 --> 00:27:21.496 And the entire proceedings of this court is because during that storm, 00:27:21.766 --> 00:27:23.836 the Enterprise lost a crew member. 00:27:23.836 --> 00:27:29.513 There was a crew member uh, Ben Finney, who was in the weather pod at the front 00:27:29.513 --> 00:27:32.903 of the ship, and when the ship went to Red Alert, when the ion storm got bad 00:27:32.903 --> 00:27:35.273 enough, they had to eject that pod. 00:27:35.603 --> 00:27:41.043 And Kirk says he gave Ben Finney plenty of time to get outta that pod and ejected 00:27:41.043 --> 00:27:42.633 it after he sounded the red alert. 00:27:42.633 --> 00:27:47.493 But the computer records say that the ship was not yet at red alert 00:27:47.523 --> 00:27:49.653 when when Kirk pressed the button. 00:27:50.463 --> 00:27:56.628 And this episode it is not the first original series courtroom drama, that 00:27:56.688 --> 00:28:00.858 comes back to The Menagerie that we have talked about before, the two-parter 00:28:01.098 --> 00:28:06.128 where the Enterprise crew sits in the courtroom and watches an episode of Star 00:28:06.128 --> 00:28:07.088 Trek on tv. 00:28:07.568 --> 00:28:12.194 Yeah, there was a bit of that this week as well of uh, the Enterprise crew watching 00:28:12.194 --> 00:28:14.699 the court proceedings on their monitors. 00:28:14.699 --> 00:28:19.299 But yeah where The Menagerie kind of sets out, you know, it's got the ringing 00:28:19.299 --> 00:28:21.469 the bell and it's got the courtroom set. 00:28:21.769 --> 00:28:27.229 This is the one where most of the story is in the courtroom, rather 00:28:27.229 --> 00:28:31.659 than the courtroom being a framing device for watching an adventure. 00:28:32.129 --> 00:28:39.219 What we get from this episode is the dress uniforms with the interesting like jewelry 00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:43.509 emblems that are exactly like the ones we see in Strange New Worlds, this week. 00:28:43.719 --> 00:28:47.029 We get the chair with the lit the lit circle that you put your 00:28:47.029 --> 00:28:51.746 palm on to identify yourself and to uh, read out your record. 00:28:51.936 --> 00:28:56.406 The little tapes, which are ubiquitous within the original series, but they 00:28:56.406 --> 00:29:00.876 are prominently used in Court Martial to, like everyone who testifies, 00:29:00.876 --> 00:29:05.056 puts their tape in the computer and it reads out their their record. 00:29:05.056 --> 00:29:08.446 And then when they finish their testimony, they take their tape with them as a record 00:29:08.446 --> 00:29:12.306 of everything that they said, and all of that is here in Strange New Worlds. 00:29:12.306 --> 00:29:15.406 So it was obvious to me that they went back to Court Martial 00:29:15.506 --> 00:29:17.726 and plumbed its depths deeply. 00:29:17.906 --> 00:29:21.266 So if nothing else, if you agree with us that this was a great episode of 00:29:21.266 --> 00:29:25.046 Star Trek, it's worth going back to Court Martial to see where a lot of 00:29:25.046 --> 00:29:27.566 the template is created so long ago. 00:29:27.629 --> 00:29:32.359 Rob: I was watching episode two and Batel was there in the prosecution and she had 00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:35.239 the big brooch of multicolored things. 00:29:35.239 --> 00:29:36.709 I'm going, that's gotta be from the 00:29:36.808 --> 00:29:38.548 Kevin: Oh, it is totally from the original series. 00:29:38.548 --> 00:29:40.738 They look remarkably similar. 00:29:40.948 --> 00:29:43.828 The thing that happens in the original series though is like the costume 00:29:43.828 --> 00:29:48.838 department isn't quite as well paid, and so from scene to scene, some of the 00:29:48.928 --> 00:29:53.638 characters' parts of their sculptures on their chest disappear and reappear 00:29:53.848 --> 00:29:56.518 as the continuity is not quite there. 00:29:56.649 --> 00:29:57.759 It, is so charming. 00:29:57.829 --> 00:29:58.129 Yeah. 00:29:58.129 --> 00:29:58.909 Who knows what they mean. 00:29:58.914 --> 00:30:03.139 But it seems like the one thing you can infer is the higher you rank, the more 00:30:03.139 --> 00:30:05.239 pottery you have glued to your chest. 00:30:05.639 --> 00:30:07.979 Rob: More ceramics that you have attached. 00:30:08.129 --> 00:30:11.909 So the main thing put on trial is the chain of command and the how 00:30:11.909 --> 00:30:17.219 Kevin: Ultimately the fascination of this episode is, we get to see what law 00:30:17.219 --> 00:30:19.229 looks like in the Star Trek universe. 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:25.389 We meet the prosecutor, Areel Shaw, who is an ex lover of Kirk's. 00:30:25.612 --> 00:30:29.552 Once he's been accused, but before the court martial is convened, Kirk 00:30:29.552 --> 00:30:33.092 walks around the space station and a lot of his, like old classroom 00:30:33.092 --> 00:30:37.112 buddies are like giving him the side eye and like presuming his guilt. 00:30:37.452 --> 00:30:40.752 So that is something we learn about Kirk is that people are pretty 00:30:40.757 --> 00:30:45.457 quick to assume his guilt in a matter of negligence as a captain. 00:30:45.937 --> 00:30:49.327 So there's six people there and they're all like mrr, yeah, I think he did it. 00:30:49.567 --> 00:30:54.824 But uh, over in the corner of the bar is this beautifully dressed woman, and Kirk 00:30:54.824 --> 00:30:59.064 is so happy to see her because it's a friendly fa face in this hostile crowd. 00:30:59.184 --> 00:31:02.979 And it's a woman that he had a relationship with previously. 00:31:03.229 --> 00:31:04.869 They're still very lovey-dovey. 00:31:04.869 --> 00:31:09.189 And she's, he says, actually it's lucky I meet you because I could 00:31:09.189 --> 00:31:11.109 really use a lawyer right now. 00:31:11.109 --> 00:31:13.179 And she goes, sorry, I'm busy. 00:31:13.929 --> 00:31:16.719 And it is revealed at the end of the scene that she has actually 00:31:16.719 --> 00:31:18.529 been tapped as the prosecutor. 00:31:18.529 --> 00:31:23.276 So she is going to have to prosecute her ex lover, a pattern that is repeated 00:31:23.276 --> 00:31:26.516 in a Next Generation episode that we're gonna be talking about in a little bit. 00:31:26.942 --> 00:31:32.102 But yes, she is the prosecutor, the defense attorney that Kirk ends up 00:31:32.102 --> 00:31:34.832 getting at her suggestion is Samuel T. 00:31:34.832 --> 00:31:36.962 Cogley, attorney at law. 00:31:36.992 --> 00:31:41.592 And he moves into Kirk's quarters and fills the place with books. 00:31:41.592 --> 00:31:47.862 There's like books stacked ten high on his sofa, on all of his desks in every 00:31:47.862 --> 00:31:51.462 surface, all these brown legal tomes. 00:31:51.582 --> 00:31:55.542 And that is the main, and as far as I can tell, only character trait 00:31:55.542 --> 00:31:59.272 we are given for Samuel t Cogley is that he likes the law in print. 00:31:59.992 --> 00:32:03.412 Nice to see another print book here this week in uh, Strange, 00:32:03.412 --> 00:32:05.152 New Worlds in the ultimate, 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:08.039 Rob: Quite a few little, quite a few appearances of old 00:32:08.332 --> 00:32:08.692 Kevin: Yeah. 00:32:09.592 --> 00:32:15.312 But yeah, so watching those two guest stars fight it out through the objections 00:32:15.312 --> 00:32:20.352 and arguments of a courtroom is the main fascination of this episode. 00:32:20.549 --> 00:32:24.839 The actual like legal case is much less strong and interesting than 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:26.519 we get elsewhere in Star Trek. 00:32:26.549 --> 00:32:30.419 It is ultimately a case of Kirk's word against the computer records, 00:32:30.449 --> 00:32:33.959 and the presumption is the computer is infallible, it can't be wrong. 00:32:34.329 --> 00:32:36.904 It's Kirk's word against an infallible record. 00:32:36.909 --> 00:32:38.554 So Kirk's obviously guilty. 00:32:38.944 --> 00:32:45.354 The big twist I use with big air quotes here is when Spock discovers that he can 00:32:45.354 --> 00:32:52.794 beat the Enterprise computer at chess, which we are led to believe, is evidence 00:32:52.884 --> 00:32:55.014 that the computer has been tampered with. 00:32:55.074 --> 00:32:59.304 So because someone tampered with the records of whether Kirk pressed 00:32:59.304 --> 00:33:03.594 the button before the red alert or not, that tampering somehow made 00:33:03.594 --> 00:33:05.424 the computer less good at chess. 00:33:05.424 --> 00:33:08.424 And that is how Spock discovers the wrongdoing. 00:33:08.571 --> 00:33:09.646 Rob: Makes perfect sense to me. 00:33:09.814 --> 00:33:12.994 Kevin: When this is revealed, this earth-shattering evidence that Spock 00:33:12.994 --> 00:33:14.344 can beat the computer at chess. 00:33:14.404 --> 00:33:14.974 Samuel T. 00:33:14.974 --> 00:33:19.804 Cogley attorney at law demands that the court adjourn to the Enterprise 00:33:19.834 --> 00:33:21.964 so that Kirk can face his accuser. 00:33:22.204 --> 00:33:27.244 One of the guarantees of Federation law is that you will be allowed to face your 00:33:27.274 --> 00:33:31.084 accuser, and in this case, the accuser is the Enterprise computer itself. 00:33:31.384 --> 00:33:37.124 And so it's, uh, it's, pretty drawn out at that point that, oh, okay. 00:33:38.014 --> 00:33:41.524 The big twist in this courtroom drama is that we're gonna get to move the 00:33:41.524 --> 00:33:46.234 court to the Enterprise, and then they have a session in the briefing 00:33:46.234 --> 00:33:50.054 room where Spock beats the computer at chess for the entertainment 00:33:50.054 --> 00:33:52.724 of the the convened officials. 00:33:52.844 --> 00:33:56.594 And then they moved to the bridge where it is a bit more interesting. 00:33:56.594 --> 00:34:00.164 They evacuate the ship so that no one is left aboard. 00:34:00.224 --> 00:34:04.224 And then the people in the court, McCoy walks around with a microphone 00:34:04.229 --> 00:34:07.794 and puts it to each of their chests and does a little thing that cancels 00:34:07.794 --> 00:34:09.504 out the sound of their heartbeat. 00:34:09.654 --> 00:34:14.394 And then they have the computer play all audible sounds left on the ship 00:34:14.544 --> 00:34:16.554 and there is one heartbeat left. 00:34:16.644 --> 00:34:20.664 And that is the revelation that Ben Finney did not die in the ion storm. 00:34:20.874 --> 00:34:23.934 He actually faked his own death by modifying the computer records 00:34:23.934 --> 00:34:27.444 and Kirk goes and has a fist fight with him in engineering. 00:34:30.399 --> 00:34:32.979 Rob: How all good K and dramas should finish. 00:34:32.979 --> 00:34:36.639 That's what was missing in episode two of Strange New World Season two. 00:34:37.161 --> 00:34:38.001 Shame. 00:34:38.261 --> 00:34:38.771 So yeah. 00:34:38.839 --> 00:34:42.109 Kevin: It sounds hinky, and it is, but I think it's still worth watching. 00:34:43.416 --> 00:34:44.076 Rob: Definitely it. 00:34:44.076 --> 00:34:50.076 See, like exploring that type of procedure of the Federation in such 00:34:50.106 --> 00:34:52.176 early stages of the show's development. 00:34:52.176 --> 00:34:54.511 What within, in its first year, first couple of 00:34:54.894 --> 00:34:58.579 Kevin: It is interesting to realize that Star Trek in its first year 00:34:58.584 --> 00:35:02.059 had two courtroom drama episodes, and one of them was a two-parter. 00:35:02.059 --> 00:35:07.849 So three of the first 24 episodes of Star Trek were courtroom dramas. 00:35:07.872 --> 00:35:09.739 They knew the formula worked early. 00:35:09.979 --> 00:35:13.759 Rob: But as we explored, like with The Menagerie, there's not much 00:35:13.759 --> 00:35:14.899 courtroom drama going on there. 00:35:15.499 --> 00:35:15.919 Yeah. 00:35:16.189 --> 00:35:21.609 It's out of like a hundred minute two-parter, it's 80% ooh, look at 00:35:21.609 --> 00:35:23.259 the clips from the previous thing we 00:35:23.387 --> 00:35:26.807 Kevin: Court Martial has a lot of that fun that we get this episode as well, where 00:35:26.807 --> 00:35:31.759 we get members of the crew brought up as witnesses and asked questions like, Areel 00:35:31.784 --> 00:35:35.279 Shaw asks McCoy for example he says Dr. 00:35:35.279 --> 00:35:39.629 McCoy, you're an expert in space psychology, aren't you? 00:35:39.969 --> 00:35:42.139 And he goes I know something about it. 00:35:42.229 --> 00:35:46.379 And just these very in character answers from our favorite 00:35:46.379 --> 00:35:47.579 characters is really fun. 00:35:47.809 --> 00:35:50.059 Rob: I've always wanted to study space psychology 00:35:50.476 --> 00:35:51.556 Kevin: Uh, you got a second one? 00:35:52.717 --> 00:35:53.497 Rob: I do. 00:35:53.497 --> 00:35:53.887 I do. 00:35:53.887 --> 00:35:57.967 And I've gotta go back to, to, to my home base. 00:35:57.997 --> 00:36:02.477 So we're looking at as I've alluded to, we're going to season one of 00:36:02.482 --> 00:36:04.427 Deep Space Nine, episode eight. 00:36:04.427 --> 00:36:08.047 So early on in the process, we're looking at Dax. 00:36:08.257 --> 00:36:12.337 This really is the establishment of, okay, let's, we've created these characters, 00:36:12.337 --> 00:36:14.587 let's find out more about them. 00:36:14.917 --> 00:36:20.177 And even though the trill had appeared in Next Gen…? 00:36:20.371 --> 00:36:20.641 Kevin: Yeah. 00:36:20.641 --> 00:36:23.951 There was one episode called The Host, I think, that kind of established 00:36:23.951 --> 00:36:25.401 the mechanics of how Trill work. 00:36:25.791 --> 00:36:26.361 Rob: Yes. 00:36:26.581 --> 00:36:30.931 But this is the one that really explores the essence of what it is. 00:36:31.171 --> 00:36:35.161 And I was fascinated by the Trill as a character, because it's very much the 00:36:35.161 --> 00:36:41.671 Star Trek terminology and interpretation of what they do in Doctor Who. 00:36:41.851 --> 00:36:45.541 So in Doctor Who, when they change the actor, they do a 00:36:45.541 --> 00:36:49.471 process called regeneration that the only Time Lords can do. 00:36:49.841 --> 00:36:53.471 So I was fascinated by, within this Star Trek thing, they could never do something 00:36:53.471 --> 00:36:57.751 as ridiculous as just regeneration, but if they have a symbiont that is 00:36:57.751 --> 00:37:01.681 inside the Trill, it's part of this process and culture, and then they 00:37:01.686 --> 00:37:05.281 move that creature inside another host. 00:37:05.551 --> 00:37:09.151 And the memories are left within that symbiont, but then there's the 00:37:09.156 --> 00:37:10.396 new personality that comes through. 00:37:10.411 --> 00:37:13.171 It's all that lovely, complicated Star Trek stuff. 00:37:13.231 --> 00:37:17.881 But this is the process of let's actually look at the fundamental creation of this 00:37:17.881 --> 00:37:24.541 species: what personality means, what identity means within this culture, and 00:37:24.781 --> 00:37:31.351 whether someone, if a crime was committed in a previous host, would that person, 00:37:31.916 --> 00:37:34.226 who now is the new host, big culpable. 00:37:34.226 --> 00:37:38.526 And it was always a fascinating concept of bringing on a Trill who in 00:37:38.526 --> 00:37:44.236 their past life was dear friends, a mentor to our lead character, Sisko. 00:37:44.596 --> 00:37:48.616 And it was always the great gag of always referring to Jadzia as 00:37:48.616 --> 00:37:51.896 Old Man cuz that's what he used to call Curzon, the previous host. 00:37:52.266 --> 00:37:54.516 And so there's a lot of stuff done here. 00:37:54.516 --> 00:37:58.391 We find out a lot about Jadzia and how she became the host. 00:37:58.391 --> 00:38:03.741 We find out a lot about Curzon, who he was as a person, his relationship with Sisko. 00:38:04.011 --> 00:38:06.531 A lot of that is established here. 00:38:06.711 --> 00:38:11.136 Now, Dax is a an episode that stands out for many reasons, but the main 00:38:11.136 --> 00:38:14.406 reason is someone we've mentioned before on this show, especially when 00:38:14.411 --> 00:38:17.496 we looked at the animated series of the sixties, this is actually 00:38:17.501 --> 00:38:21.186 co-written by the great DC Fontana. 00:38:21.634 --> 00:38:22.164 Kevin: Very good. 00:38:22.374 --> 00:38:25.224 Rob: Yes, who was brought on, and it said in production notes that she 00:38:25.224 --> 00:38:29.524 actually found it quite difficult to focus on an episode that's focused 00:38:29.524 --> 00:38:32.614 on character because as she said, this is only the eighth episode. 00:38:32.614 --> 00:38:35.704 You haven't really established the individual characters here. 00:38:35.704 --> 00:38:36.904 You've got archetypes. 00:38:36.964 --> 00:38:41.144 So she was brought on with a co-writer, Peter Allen Fields, who came up with the 00:38:41.144 --> 00:38:44.584 idea, and the two of them had written together on The Six Million Dollar Man. 00:38:44.904 --> 00:38:47.784 And she of course, had extensive history with the original series 00:38:47.789 --> 00:38:51.594 and the animated series, but it's actually a really good episode. 00:38:51.594 --> 00:38:54.564 I remember watching this when I was, when it first came 00:38:54.564 --> 00:38:56.304 out, and it sticks in my head. 00:38:56.304 --> 00:39:00.104 There's some beautiful moments in there, like the on the offside, like 00:39:00.104 --> 00:39:04.064 the tension between Quark and Odo is still very much in its early stages, 00:39:04.064 --> 00:39:07.604 so it's very tense and antagonistic. 00:39:07.924 --> 00:39:12.854 The, there's a beautiful moment when representatives from this culture 00:39:12.854 --> 00:39:18.219 who've come to put Jadzia on trial, sneak onto the base and have all 00:39:18.219 --> 00:39:20.409 the codes and can easily get out. 00:39:20.409 --> 00:39:24.149 But then brought back in with some, nice maneuvering from Sisko, showing how 00:39:24.149 --> 00:39:26.189 smart he is to get a tractor beam in. 00:39:26.369 --> 00:39:31.474 And in an interrogation interview scene with Sisko and Kira, they 00:39:31.524 --> 00:39:32.894 good cop, bad cop each other. 00:39:32.994 --> 00:39:36.684 They do this wonderful double play with the representative from that culture to 00:39:36.684 --> 00:39:40.474 find out that he actually got the codes and everything from the Cardassians. 00:39:40.492 --> 00:39:44.812 Kevin: a staple of TV legal dramas that the investigation continues 00:39:44.812 --> 00:39:47.482 while the court case is proceeding. 00:39:47.902 --> 00:39:50.902 That's something that I'm pretty sure never happens in real life, that um, 00:39:50.902 --> 00:39:54.292 there's a ticking clock because the court case is happening at the same time. 00:39:54.469 --> 00:39:58.009 Rob: When I was growing up, there was Perry Mason and his investigator 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:01.639 doing work was William Katt from The Greatest American Hero. 00:40:01.789 --> 00:40:05.509 And in this case, it's Odo going to the planet where this happened 00:40:05.509 --> 00:40:07.519 and finding out what he can. 00:40:07.849 --> 00:40:11.779 So like the trial is there more as a background, cuz as, as they always say, 00:40:11.959 --> 00:40:16.798 it's not a trial, it's not a trial, it's just a hearing, and so it's just 00:40:16.803 --> 00:40:18.928 a way for us to find out more about it. 00:40:18.928 --> 00:40:20.878 And we hear it from a scientific point of view. 00:40:20.878 --> 00:40:23.878 We hear it from a moral point of view, an emotional point of view, 00:40:24.088 --> 00:40:26.188 a philosophical point of view. 00:40:26.188 --> 00:40:31.148 So we in this episode, we find out more about the Trill culture 00:40:31.538 --> 00:40:36.128 and the process of it than in any other episode we have before. 00:40:36.128 --> 00:40:42.321 There's one episode in Discovery season three, where we have the 00:40:42.321 --> 00:40:46.231 Trill crew mate coming on, and that's a really good episode. 00:40:46.231 --> 00:40:48.271 That's one of the ones that I particularly loved. 00:40:48.271 --> 00:40:51.990 I but yeah, this one, it focuses on that and the characters are still quite raw. 00:40:52.042 --> 00:40:59.464 Bashir is at his hound dog, uh, love rat best but steps up and speaks 00:40:59.464 --> 00:41:01.364 beautifully from a medical point of 00:41:01.492 --> 00:41:05.782 Kevin: This is a really good parallel to this week's episode of Strange New Worlds. 00:41:05.782 --> 00:41:10.277 I feel like it lands at about the same place in the series as this one does. 00:41:10.317 --> 00:41:13.617 We're at episode 12 because season one had 10 episodes in it. 00:41:13.827 --> 00:41:14.907 This is episode eight. 00:41:14.937 --> 00:41:16.107 Not that far apart. 00:41:16.377 --> 00:41:19.977 It's taking a character that we presume is gonna stick around for 00:41:19.977 --> 00:41:22.797 the rest of the series, but we know we have no guarantee of that. 00:41:22.827 --> 00:41:27.112 So it is at least plausible that that we are about to see them locked up 00:41:27.117 --> 00:41:30.567 for the rest of their lives or drummed outta Starfleet as the case may be. 00:41:30.997 --> 00:41:38.197 So there is some believable jeopardy here, and it is the court case is an 00:41:38.197 --> 00:41:42.787 opportunity to delve deeply into not just the character that's on trial, but 00:41:42.787 --> 00:41:47.207 a bunch of other characters and learn a bunch about them under that pressure. 00:41:47.459 --> 00:41:49.229 Rob: It's actually quite a good episode. 00:41:49.234 --> 00:41:51.299 It's a good little mystery that they have to solve. 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:54.599 But one of the most heartbreaking things for me is at the time of this 00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:59.009 recording, watching the episode, I'm there going I started watching this 00:41:59.009 --> 00:42:04.259 when I was a teenager, obviously, and in the episode they talk about this young 00:42:04.259 --> 00:42:11.969 woman, Jadzia Dax, who is 28, and I'm there going, yep, am now 45 years old. 00:42:13.192 --> 00:42:15.262 Kevin: It's almost two young women old. 00:42:18.899 --> 00:42:19.199 Rob: Yeah. 00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:20.879 Thank you very much for pointing that out, Kevin. 00:42:20.884 --> 00:42:21.479 Thank you. 00:42:21.699 --> 00:42:23.619 Time is a bitch, sometimes. 00:42:23.729 --> 00:42:24.989 But it's a great episode. 00:42:24.989 --> 00:42:26.789 There's a wonderful supporting cast. 00:42:26.789 --> 00:42:30.479 You've got Anne Haney as the the judge coming in. 00:42:30.479 --> 00:42:33.209 She's done great work in Liar, and Mrs. 00:42:33.209 --> 00:42:35.819 Doubtfire, wonderful character actress coming in as the 00:42:35.819 --> 00:42:38.219 Bajoran judge to oversee things. 00:42:38.529 --> 00:42:40.735 You've got the wonderful Gregory Itzin. 00:42:40.985 --> 00:42:44.645 He's done stuff like 24 and he's played Richard Nixon and he's done 00:42:44.645 --> 00:42:47.195 like lots of, just a TV staple. 00:42:47.405 --> 00:42:51.700 And just wonderful character actors filling out this hour 00:42:51.705 --> 00:42:52.890 of wonderful television. 00:42:52.890 --> 00:42:57.900 And the big reveal at the end, obviously is that Curzon could not have 00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:03.330 possibly been there because he was in the bed of the man who died's wife. 00:43:03.450 --> 00:43:04.800 Oh, good lord. 00:43:05.804 --> 00:43:06.024 Kevin: Yes. 00:43:06.364 --> 00:43:10.124 Uh, to, to use one of your turns of phrase, Rob, this is uh, 00:43:10.164 --> 00:43:14.714 innocence proven by being a dawwg. 00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:17.414 Rob: I'm so glad that has caught on. 00:43:17.654 --> 00:43:18.134 Yes. 00:43:18.224 --> 00:43:18.614 Yeah. 00:43:18.864 --> 00:43:22.274 It's a still is very much in that early nineties perception 00:43:22.304 --> 00:43:23.924 of gender and identity. 00:43:23.929 --> 00:43:25.454 So it's so binary. 00:43:25.484 --> 00:43:26.684 It is so binary. 00:43:26.684 --> 00:43:30.874 There are so many things about, Kon the male and the older, 00:43:31.084 --> 00:43:33.824 hardened, drinker and womanizer. 00:43:34.314 --> 00:43:39.564 And Jadzia is the young woman and noble, and yeah, there is a line 00:43:39.614 --> 00:43:44.024 where Sisko goes, if you weren't a woman, I would… you're there oh, 00:43:44.812 --> 00:43:45.712 Kevin: They were trying. 00:43:45.772 --> 00:43:46.572 They were trying. 00:43:46.964 --> 00:43:50.174 Rob: They were, yeah, they're still working within the confines 00:43:50.174 --> 00:43:52.044 of the time that they were at. 00:43:52.254 --> 00:43:55.524 They were pushing ahead, but still staying within their little bubble. 00:43:55.644 --> 00:44:00.644 But yeah, and that's all revealed at the end in the last scene that, cuz 00:44:00.644 --> 00:44:05.204 it was all about committing treason and that Curzon was accused of 00:44:05.204 --> 00:44:07.154 sending this message to the rebels. 00:44:07.334 --> 00:44:11.804 But actually it was the guy who died who sent it to the rebels. 00:44:11.804 --> 00:44:14.474 And when the rebels, the rebels didn't like him and they killed him off. 00:44:14.504 --> 00:44:19.440 But this guy clearly has become a legend and a hero and his death 00:44:19.470 --> 00:44:24.960 inspired victory and he's seen as a hero where at home he was, it's alluded 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:28.020 to, he was not a nice person at all. 00:44:28.460 --> 00:44:31.880 And, but the legend is more important than that has to stay on. 00:44:32.210 --> 00:44:36.080 And it's quite sad at the end going back cuz there's a moment she plays 00:44:36.080 --> 00:44:39.180 it quite rattled, Terry Farrell, she's a wonderful performer. 00:44:39.460 --> 00:44:43.255 And she's like battling with all the personas and the memories 00:44:43.255 --> 00:44:48.055 within her and having this talk with this former lover of Curzon's. 00:44:48.375 --> 00:44:52.382 And I think it's Enina touches Jadzia on the face and goes, 00:44:52.382 --> 00:44:54.392 just do one thing for me, live. 00:44:54.482 --> 00:44:56.252 Live a long and happy life. 00:44:56.252 --> 00:44:58.232 And I'm going, she doesn't get that. 00:44:58.682 --> 00:45:00.062 She dies. 00:45:02.012 --> 00:45:04.412 Damn you, Gul Dukat! 00:45:04.467 --> 00:45:10.247 But yeah, it's a it's a good episode in the early days of a show finding its 00:45:10.252 --> 00:45:16.747 feet and it's it does a creative way of rather complicated alien species giving 00:45:16.747 --> 00:45:21.397 it depth and variety to get, an early nineties mainstream audience watching, 00:45:21.397 --> 00:45:23.167 going, what the hell's going on here? 00:45:23.167 --> 00:45:24.877 We just want the bumps on the head. 00:45:25.745 --> 00:45:26.085 Kevin: All right. 00:45:26.135 --> 00:45:28.080 I'm gonna take us back to The Next Generation. 00:45:28.080 --> 00:45:30.120 And this is a, this is an easy one. 00:45:30.150 --> 00:45:36.025 Like this is a, nothing but the net sort of pick because it is often on lists 00:45:36.055 --> 00:45:42.595 of best ever episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, and it is The Measure 00:45:42.595 --> 00:45:44.845 Of A Man, season two, episode nine. 00:45:45.529 --> 00:45:50.089 We can't not talk about The Measure Of A Man under the heading of courtroom dramas. 00:45:50.169 --> 00:45:53.859 It was before this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, it was 00:45:53.859 --> 00:45:55.869 my favorite courtroom drama. 00:45:55.899 --> 00:45:57.399 I think it's the strongest story. 00:45:57.729 --> 00:46:01.629 I think some people may consider it still stronger than what we got this 00:46:01.629 --> 00:46:04.899 week from Strange New Worlds, but I've watched the two in close succession 00:46:04.929 --> 00:46:09.859 and I think this one does some great storytelling but Strange New Worlds is 00:46:09.864 --> 00:46:12.499 a stronger courtroom drama for sure. 00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:18.919 This episode is all about the question of is Data a toaster, to put it in the 00:46:18.924 --> 00:46:25.972 words of our guest star Captain Phillipa Louvois, who is the previous kind of 00:46:26.362 --> 00:46:29.422 implied love interest of Captain Picard. 00:46:29.482 --> 00:46:33.082 And when Picard goes looking for someone to help him with his legal 00:46:33.082 --> 00:46:38.242 problems, Phillipa Louvois is waiting for him there on this star base. 00:46:38.552 --> 00:46:39.987 The dynamic is slightly different. 00:46:39.987 --> 00:46:45.667 Apparently Phillipa Louvois in her previous life prosecuted Picard 00:46:45.667 --> 00:46:51.690 for a case involving the Stargazer, and there are some hard feelings, 00:46:51.690 --> 00:46:55.765 but also you can tell there is a lot of attraction between them. 00:46:55.879 --> 00:46:59.509 She says it's I'm not gonna get this line exactly right, but she says something 00:46:59.509 --> 00:47:05.749 along the lines of it is reassuring to my worldview that you, Captain Picard are 00:47:05.749 --> 00:47:09.679 still a pompous ass – and a damn sexy man. 00:47:09.787 --> 00:47:10.027 Rob: She 00:47:10.185 --> 00:47:10.515 Kevin: Yeah. 00:47:10.755 --> 00:47:11.115 Yeah. 00:47:11.115 --> 00:47:12.225 She says sexy man. 00:47:12.315 --> 00:47:12.645 Yeah. 00:47:12.715 --> 00:47:13.255 Yes. 00:47:13.375 --> 00:47:16.495 Unless I'm misremembering, but it is something along those lines. 00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:21.617 But yeah, so this is an episode that's actually tied to some of the lore 00:47:21.617 --> 00:47:26.357 that we got in early Star Trek: Picard seasons, season one, particularly, where 00:47:26.567 --> 00:47:32.127 Bruce Maddox, who is the mad scientist at Starfleet that wants to, in this 00:47:32.127 --> 00:47:36.117 episode, disassemble Data for parts in order to understand how he works 00:47:36.117 --> 00:47:41.217 so he can make a thousand more Datas, but he's not a hundred percent sure 00:47:41.217 --> 00:47:43.457 he's going to be able to figure it out. 00:47:43.567 --> 00:47:45.337 He'll cross that bridge when he comes to it. 00:47:45.397 --> 00:47:49.967 But first he needs to take Data under his command and pull him to pieces. 00:47:50.447 --> 00:47:53.267 And so Data, at first, he objects. 00:47:53.267 --> 00:47:55.487 He says, I don't think you've done the groundwork necessary 00:47:55.487 --> 00:47:57.047 for an experiment of this nature. 00:47:57.407 --> 00:48:02.634 But the initial ruling is that Data cannot refuse, that he is property. 00:48:02.634 --> 00:48:05.524 He is an object, and he is owned by Starfleet. 00:48:05.554 --> 00:48:10.744 And he can not decline this experiment any more than the computer of the 00:48:10.749 --> 00:48:12.874 Enterprise could decline a refit. 00:48:13.504 --> 00:48:15.964 And this is what prompts the court case. 00:48:16.324 --> 00:48:20.977 The beautiful twist in this episode that is a stroke of genius from Melinda 00:48:21.017 --> 00:48:23.207 Snodgrass, who wrote this episode. 00:48:23.387 --> 00:48:25.817 This is her first episode of Star Trek, she's written. 00:48:26.027 --> 00:48:31.157 She worked for several years as a lawyer, which is why she was familiar enough 00:48:31.162 --> 00:48:36.307 with court proceedings to, to pitch a a courtroom drama for her first episode. 00:48:36.577 --> 00:48:40.837 But the thing she does here is that the JAG office on this star 00:48:40.837 --> 00:48:42.727 base is just getting established. 00:48:42.732 --> 00:48:46.017 And Louvois here, Captain Louvois has no staff. 00:48:46.287 --> 00:48:48.237 There are no lawyers available. 00:48:48.327 --> 00:48:52.217 And she says under these circumstances, Starfleet procedure is clear. 00:48:52.277 --> 00:48:55.817 I get to draft the most senior ranking officers to be, to 00:48:55.817 --> 00:48:57.347 act as counsel in this case. 00:48:57.347 --> 00:49:01.707 And Picard you're most senior, so you'll be defense and Riker, 00:49:01.712 --> 00:49:03.357 you need to be the prosecutor. 00:49:03.417 --> 00:49:09.047 And Riker says, I can't argue for Data's ineligibility as a sentient 00:49:09.047 --> 00:49:10.907 being because I don't believe it. 00:49:11.217 --> 00:49:13.857 But she says then I'll rule summarily against him. 00:49:13.857 --> 00:49:20.607 So this is among other things a great Riker episode as Riker needs to swallow 00:49:20.607 --> 00:49:25.677 his friendship and his belief in Data and do his best to mount a case for 00:49:25.677 --> 00:49:30.237 the fact that Data is nothing more than a a walking talking machine. 00:49:31.077 --> 00:49:36.217 There's a beautiful scene where Riker is in the library section researching Data's 00:49:36.237 --> 00:49:42.677 schematics, and finds his deactivation switch on his back, and Riker sees it and 00:49:42.677 --> 00:49:47.027 you, it's just a closeup on Riker where you see him like light up in delight. 00:49:47.267 --> 00:49:48.437 He can't believe his luck. 00:49:48.437 --> 00:49:52.367 And then he realizes what this will mean to his friend and he is deflated. 00:49:52.787 --> 00:49:57.467 And the moment where he switches off Data on the witness stand and Data 00:49:57.467 --> 00:50:01.997 slumps in his chair is it takes my breath away now even though I've seen 00:50:02.037 --> 00:50:04.767 this episode five, ten times now. 00:50:05.377 --> 00:50:09.397 Like this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, it has the strong emotional 00:50:09.397 --> 00:50:14.317 speeches that get me all choked up because people in Star Trek care 00:50:14.317 --> 00:50:18.607 about things like principles and the truth, and it's just so heartwarming. 00:50:19.007 --> 00:50:20.387 All of that is here. 00:50:20.717 --> 00:50:26.507 What is lacking is there is no real kind of legal mechanism that comes into play. 00:50:26.627 --> 00:50:31.157 All that kind of happens is that Picard gives a better speech than Riker, 00:50:31.277 --> 00:50:33.647 and the judge says, I'm convinced. 00:50:34.017 --> 00:50:35.757 There's not much more beyond that. 00:50:35.757 --> 00:50:39.747 There is some let's tease apart what it means to be sentient. 00:50:39.752 --> 00:50:41.187 It means three things. 00:50:41.637 --> 00:50:44.307 Data clearly satisfies two of the three. 00:50:44.307 --> 00:50:45.657 So what about the third one? 00:50:45.657 --> 00:50:51.927 And there is a bit of exploration of the ideas here, but it's not quite as 00:50:51.932 --> 00:50:57.300 satisfying an unwinding of the facts as what we get in Una's case this week. 00:50:57.465 --> 00:50:59.685 Rob: And um, and this is early on then as well. 00:50:59.825 --> 00:51:01.915 So this is like, uh, season, two. 00:51:02.104 --> 00:51:06.904 Kevin: I think what we're learning is a good series of Star Trek needs at least 00:51:06.904 --> 00:51:10.804 one courtroom drama in its first season to get its characters off the ground. 00:51:11.650 --> 00:51:12.850 Rob: It really does. 00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:13.570 It really does. 00:51:13.570 --> 00:51:18.170 And this is one that people refer to so often when it comes to, Next Gen 00:51:18.170 --> 00:51:21.830 episodes and Star Trek episodes in general, that is just top tier and it's 00:51:21.830 --> 00:51:24.260 the quintessential elements of sci-fi. 00:51:24.380 --> 00:51:27.490 Like you said, what is humanity against technology? 00:51:27.710 --> 00:51:31.400 It's the same thing that they explore quite well in Voyager 00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:33.080 with Robert Picordo's Doctor. 00:51:33.450 --> 00:51:36.840 What is a, what is just a simple program and what is the personality 00:51:36.870 --> 00:51:42.660 and how do you define humanity, which is what you want to see in, in Sci-fi. 00:51:43.150 --> 00:51:47.889 Kevin: I'd say arguably this is the episode where we recognize Data 00:51:47.889 --> 00:51:49.864 for what he can be in this crew. 00:51:50.147 --> 00:51:55.577 He says things in his purely logical mechanical way that are so heartwarming, 00:51:55.577 --> 00:52:00.177 like when Picard is appointed to be his counselor, Picard says, look if 00:52:00.177 --> 00:52:03.777 there's anyone else who you think would do a better job, and Data says, 00:52:04.197 --> 00:52:08.007 Captain, I have full faith in your ability to represent my interests. 00:52:08.007 --> 00:52:12.957 And it's just like that bromance starts right there, that, that Data 00:52:12.957 --> 00:52:18.297 expressing his undying confidence in Picard to look after him is there. 00:52:18.447 --> 00:52:22.907 And at the very last scene of this episode, as everyone is celebrating Data's 00:52:22.907 --> 00:52:25.077 victory Riker is nowhere to be found. 00:52:25.077 --> 00:52:27.537 And Data tracks him down in the observation lounge. 00:52:27.542 --> 00:52:32.877 And Riker is like leaning against the window, gazing off into space, going, I 00:52:32.877 --> 00:52:34.797 don't deserve to be in the celebration. 00:52:34.797 --> 00:52:35.847 I almost won. 00:52:35.847 --> 00:52:37.797 I could have cost you your life, Data. 00:52:38.067 --> 00:52:41.647 And data says if you hadn't done it I would've been ruled against. 00:52:41.647 --> 00:52:42.397 Isn't that right? 00:52:42.397 --> 00:52:43.447 And Riker says, yeah. 00:52:44.017 --> 00:52:48.307 And he goes, You injured yourself to save me. 00:52:48.667 --> 00:52:50.767 What better sign of friendship is there? 00:52:51.307 --> 00:52:57.757 And it's just these earnest declarations of professional love for each 00:52:57.757 --> 00:52:59.747 other really gets me every time. 00:52:59.747 --> 00:53:00.737 And there was plenty of that 00:53:00.939 --> 00:53:04.209 Rob: I think, and that's, it's a big thing about Star Trek because 00:53:04.209 --> 00:53:06.359 it is earnest and procedural. 00:53:06.399 --> 00:53:08.529 Its way of like rank and file. 00:53:08.529 --> 00:53:13.269 And so when these characters are working through, whether it be the original series 00:53:13.269 --> 00:53:18.009 or whether it be in Next Gen or any of them, they're just so stuck in their roles 00:53:18.009 --> 00:53:20.564 of command and the Federation and stuff. 00:53:20.564 --> 00:53:25.304 So when they show a, they crack through that exterior with that same 00:53:25.304 --> 00:53:31.614 earnestness, whenever you have Spock turn to Kirk and call him Jim and open 00:53:31.614 --> 00:53:36.024 up honestly and earnestly from his heart, you go, Oh, and it's the same 00:53:36.024 --> 00:53:38.994 here when, Riker being comforted by Data. 00:53:39.074 --> 00:53:42.094 Kevin: Among all the other reasons to go back and watch The Measure Of A 00:53:42.094 --> 00:53:46.424 Man, the one that is often forgotten is that this is the first poker game 00:53:46.424 --> 00:53:48.254 in Star Trek: The Next Generation. 00:53:48.284 --> 00:53:52.484 Data learns to play poker in the opening cold open of this episode. 00:53:53.946 --> 00:53:54.636 Rob: Good good. 00:53:54.766 --> 00:53:58.461 So yeah, I, it would be remiss in this Star Trek podcast not to, to 00:53:58.461 --> 00:54:02.151 us, to mention at the end of it all what a wonderful exploration of 00:54:02.181 --> 00:54:06.181 the trials and tribulations of the Federation in the star Trek world. 00:54:06.481 --> 00:54:10.431 But big news that's just broken and heartbreaking news, even though 00:54:10.431 --> 00:54:14.411 it was commissioned for a second season, Paramount+ has pulled 00:54:14.431 --> 00:54:17.801 the plug on Star Trek: Prodigy. 00:54:17.981 --> 00:54:21.781 So in a matter of days, season one will be taken off the air. 00:54:21.786 --> 00:54:25.711 And even though they've already done season two, there's no guarantee of 00:54:25.711 --> 00:54:27.301 where it will be played and when it 00:54:27.354 --> 00:54:27.804 Kevin: Yeah. 00:54:27.809 --> 00:54:31.194 Season two is in the final stages of post-production, we're told, 00:54:31.194 --> 00:54:33.144 and it will still get completed. 00:54:33.194 --> 00:54:37.884 My understanding here is Paramount has paid for the production, but 00:54:37.884 --> 00:54:42.724 they have declined to retain the rights to actually air the thing. 00:54:43.214 --> 00:54:43.724 So that. 00:54:43.911 --> 00:54:46.161 Rob: But it is a co-production with Nickelodeon, 00:54:46.439 --> 00:54:48.509 Kevin: And it's also not coming to Nickelodeon. 00:54:48.569 --> 00:54:53.009 So both places that it was airing are no longer, they have divested 00:54:53.009 --> 00:54:54.239 themselves of those rights. 00:54:54.609 --> 00:55:00.409 And some of the coverage I've read about this stuff is it comes down to tax. 00:55:00.704 --> 00:55:01.754 Tax concessions. 00:55:01.784 --> 00:55:06.224 Basically, if you not only cancel the series but take it off your 00:55:06.224 --> 00:55:12.674 streaming service, you can claim a tax deduction, not just for the losses 00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:17.599 that are present in this series, but also the projected future losses. 00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:22.369 All of the income that those episodes were going to make in the future can 00:55:22.374 --> 00:55:24.949 now be claimed as a tax break today. 00:55:24.949 --> 00:55:30.769 So it's Paramount saying, look, we need money badly enough that we are going to 00:55:30.829 --> 00:55:32.779 pick our own pockets from the future. 00:55:33.069 --> 00:55:35.529 And Star Trek: Prodigy will pay the price. 00:55:35.772 --> 00:55:37.782 Rob: And there's quite, there's a number of other shows that 00:55:37.782 --> 00:55:39.042 they've done this to as well. 00:55:39.047 --> 00:55:43.952 It's like the the grease prequel series rise of the Pink Ladies and 00:55:44.032 --> 00:55:46.702 Yeah, across all streamers, they've been doing that, like Disney Plus 00:55:46.702 --> 00:55:50.942 did a massive purge of shows off their streamer about a month ago. 00:55:50.982 --> 00:55:54.222 But this would be one of the more high profile, 00:55:54.650 --> 00:55:55.730 Kevin: It's not good news. 00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:02.510 One hopes it will find a home somewhere else, but that is somewhat dependent on 00:56:02.510 --> 00:56:07.040 someone having enough money to pay for a Star Trek series, an already produced 00:56:07.040 --> 00:56:10.550 Star Trek series, like Paramount's already paid for it to be made. 00:56:10.580 --> 00:56:13.910 Someone just needs to pay to the, the rights to stream it now. 00:56:13.910 --> 00:56:17.750 So you would expect that to be within reach of a Netflix or an 00:56:17.755 --> 00:56:20.360 Amazon Prime or whatever it might be. 00:56:20.610 --> 00:56:21.720 But there's no guarantees. 00:56:21.775 --> 00:56:25.675 And the feeling is that all of the money is draining out 00:56:25.675 --> 00:56:27.295 of this streaming gold rush. 00:56:27.295 --> 00:56:30.535 And all of these companies that were competing with each other by greenlighting 00:56:30.565 --> 00:56:35.345 anything that anyone would conceivably watch, all that money is going away. 00:56:35.375 --> 00:56:39.305 So I, I am worried that we may never see Prodigy season two. 00:56:39.305 --> 00:56:44.510 It seems almost inconceivable that a group of star Trek loving nerds would 00:56:44.510 --> 00:56:50.250 have put together a full 10 episode, 20 episode season, we're told, of Star 00:56:50.250 --> 00:56:51.990 Trek, and the world may never see it. 00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:56.045 One assumes it will get out someday, somehow someone will 00:56:56.045 --> 00:56:57.785 pay to press those Blu-rays. 00:56:58.160 --> 00:57:02.000 But yeah, it, there's no guarantees now that we're ever gonna see it. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:05.755 Rob: This is this is good, consistent Star Trek and good television, not 00:57:05.755 --> 00:57:08.095 just for kids, but for all ages. 00:57:08.095 --> 00:57:12.115 So for something to be taken off that is of such a high standard animation 00:57:12.115 --> 00:57:16.915 wise, music wise, script writing wise and bringing back Kate Mulgrew and that, 00:57:16.915 --> 00:57:19.585 to have it taken off and it is nowhere, 00:57:19.624 --> 00:57:20.944 Kevin: a sad state of affairs. 00:57:21.214 --> 00:57:25.564 In any market that gets flooded by like competition fueled investment 00:57:25.564 --> 00:57:29.644 like this, ultimately what happens is that there's more product than people 00:57:29.644 --> 00:57:31.740 to pay for it at the end of the day. 00:57:31.740 --> 00:57:36.070 And good stuff is going to pay the price of that. 00:57:36.170 --> 00:57:41.655 I think I felt for a while now that there was way more star Trek being made 00:57:41.705 --> 00:57:45.925 than could be justified given that they barely were able to keep it on the air 00:57:45.955 --> 00:57:49.405 through, through the Enterprise era, and then it's been off the air all this 00:57:49.405 --> 00:57:54.935 time, the idea that suddenly the world is ready for more Star Trek, like I've 00:57:54.935 --> 00:57:57.305 been ready for more Star Trek every day. 00:57:57.785 --> 00:58:02.195 But but I don't believe there are enough of us out there to pay for four prestige 00:58:02.195 --> 00:58:04.415 series in production at the same time. 00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:05.599 Yeah. 00:58:05.659 --> 00:58:08.359 So something had to give, sadly. 00:58:08.364 --> 00:58:11.744 I think Prodigy is just the one that didn't find its audience. 00:58:12.204 --> 00:58:15.774 Because the people who are nostalgically attached to Star Trek, it's the 00:58:15.774 --> 00:58:18.774 last one they were gonna watch because it was marketed for kids. 00:58:20.340 --> 00:58:20.670 Rob: Yes. 00:58:20.670 --> 00:58:22.860 And it was that case of we have been getting a sense 00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:25.130 of the environment shifting. 00:58:25.130 --> 00:58:27.380 Everyone's just gone, okay, writing is on the wall. 00:58:27.470 --> 00:58:31.940 Let's go, let's put all of our attention into making our one 00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:32.519 Kevin: Yeah, 00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:34.020 Rob: Strange New Worlds. 00:58:34.059 --> 00:58:37.576 Kevin: And it clarifies one of the reasons why Star Trek: Legacy 00:58:37.576 --> 00:58:39.256 is potentially a hard sell. 00:58:39.286 --> 00:58:44.036 Because yes, all the Star Trek fans want to watch it, but there aren't enough 00:58:44.036 --> 00:58:46.556 Star Trek fans to pay for two series. 00:58:46.556 --> 00:58:48.986 And so they've already got Strange New Worlds. 00:58:49.166 --> 00:58:52.756 The sets are built, the actors are hired, the costumes are made. 00:58:52.996 --> 00:58:55.516 It's in production and it's successful. 00:58:55.876 --> 00:59:01.406 We've got a very good, proven safe investment in a Star Trek: Legacy, 00:59:01.406 --> 00:59:03.056 but we don't need that right now. 00:59:03.056 --> 00:59:06.506 What we need to be doing is shutting down Star Trek series. 00:59:06.806 --> 00:59:08.116 So that's my worry. 00:59:08.296 --> 00:59:12.586 For Prodigy, I hope the fact that it is made for children is potentially 00:59:12.586 --> 00:59:17.056 its salvation, because the one thing streaming services need is a lot 00:59:17.056 --> 00:59:22.066 of content for kids because parents love to pay that bill so that their 00:59:22.066 --> 00:59:23.656 kids can have something to watch. 00:59:24.006 --> 00:59:28.901 So yeah, I hope, a Netflix or something can come along pay that 00:59:28.906 --> 00:59:34.691 relatively modest bill and get some fresh young eyeballs learning what 00:59:34.691 --> 00:59:36.431 Star Trek is and how amazing it is. 00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:39.239 Rob: Yeah, it's a sad day from, for all the people involved. 00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:42.929 So wonderful voiceovers, actors, wonderful animators, wonderful 00:59:42.959 --> 00:59:46.859 script writers and directors and everyone involved in Prodigy. 00:59:46.859 --> 00:59:48.329 It must be devastating for 00:59:48.517 --> 00:59:51.667 Kevin: The fact that season one was such a tight beginning, middle and end 00:59:51.757 --> 00:59:54.817 makes me feel like it could have ended there and I would've been satisfied. 00:59:54.877 --> 00:59:58.327 But that also tells me that this season two, that is all but done, 00:59:58.327 --> 01:00:03.727 is probably also a very satisfying, self-contained story, that it would 01:00:03.727 --> 01:00:05.137 be a shame if we never get to see. 01:00:06.494 --> 01:00:08.084 Rob: Oh, if only we could. 01:00:08.864 --> 01:00:10.904 We'll see what happens in the future. 01:00:11.178 --> 01:00:11.988 Until next week. 01:00:12.071 --> 01:00:13.001 Kevin: See around the galaxy.