WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.837 But he said, the traditional way to distinguish churches in the 90s and the 00:00:03.837 --> 00:00:07.157 2000s. What is your view on predestination? 00:00:07.837 --> 00:00:11.597 What's your view on baptism? So predestination, what's your view on baptism? 00:00:12.117 --> 00:00:15.817 What's your view on the end times? That's a big one. What's your view on the 00:00:15.817 --> 00:00:20.017 end times? Right. And then what's your view on spiritual gifts? 00:00:20.577 --> 00:00:23.297 Modern way to distinguish churches, church between churches, 00:00:23.317 --> 00:00:26.537 these questions. What is your view on the role of women? 00:00:27.697 --> 00:00:33.457 I'm presuming in ministry. industry what's your view on social justice big topic 00:00:33.457 --> 00:00:37.037 there what's your view on spiritual abuse, 00:00:38.257 --> 00:00:45.857 what's your response to lgbtq plus scenarios yeah welcome to the uncut podcast. 00:00:47.157 --> 00:00:52.397 I'm pastor luke i'm pastor cameron and this is the uncut podcast where we have 00:00:52.397 --> 00:00:56.557 honest uncut But I forgot my intro. 00:00:56.717 --> 00:01:01.457 Honest Uncut and Conversations about Faith, Life, and Ministry. 00:01:01.737 --> 00:01:04.577 There we go. I felt like there was a third thing there. But I don't know. 00:01:04.597 --> 00:01:08.057 So it's one of those things that you do over and over again, 00:01:08.117 --> 00:01:09.577 and you eventually actually forget it. 00:01:09.657 --> 00:01:15.817 If someone asks you for, I don't know, your social or your pin or something like that. 00:01:15.817 --> 00:01:22.397 I have messed up the Lord's Prayer while praying, like during, 00:01:22.677 --> 00:01:25.517 like praying in front of the congregation. 00:01:25.637 --> 00:01:29.397 Like, okay, let's all pray the Lord's Prayer together. Like I messed it up. 00:01:29.837 --> 00:01:33.537 It's like kind of like the singer who screws up the national anthem in front 00:01:33.537 --> 00:01:35.457 of a big crowd, you know? Oh, can you see? 00:01:36.017 --> 00:01:37.877 Oh, can you see? Bye. 00:01:40.357 --> 00:01:40.837 Jose. 00:01:43.617 --> 00:01:49.957 Well, anyways, Cameron, we're sitting down to... 00:01:52.585 --> 00:01:58.385 Yeah, I recorded this episode, and you ran across a kind of a question. 00:01:59.165 --> 00:02:02.805 Is it related with the podcast that he's associated with? I'm not sure. 00:02:02.905 --> 00:02:05.365 I guess we'll see in upcoming episodes. 00:02:05.865 --> 00:02:08.685 Maybe we can plug their podcast. Yeah, let's do that. 00:02:10.445 --> 00:02:16.225 I had started listening to a podcast from a couple of guys who, 00:02:16.385 --> 00:02:21.085 a couple of Asian Americans, who talk a lot about issues. 00:02:21.085 --> 00:02:26.065 Issues they're all pastors talk a lot about issues face facing the asian american church, 00:02:27.005 --> 00:02:31.065 and that's obviously not our culture and we don't really have a strong asian 00:02:31.065 --> 00:02:34.745 american culture here in western new york where we live and so it's a really 00:02:34.745 --> 00:02:37.165 interesting listen to me although. 00:02:38.945 --> 00:02:42.025 Um you know there's a lot of familiarity just based 00:02:42.025 --> 00:02:45.225 on ministry cultural differences within asian 00:02:45.225 --> 00:02:47.965 american churches and kind of more like i guess what 00:02:47.965 --> 00:02:51.425 we would be considered as like blue collar white american 00:02:51.425 --> 00:02:54.885 churches um uh they're 00:02:54.885 --> 00:02:57.505 they're really interesting anyway these guys are really insightful i really 00:02:57.505 --> 00:03:00.005 appreciate the type of things that they talk about they're bringing a lot of 00:03:00.005 --> 00:03:03.385 interesting guests i would love to know how they get their guests to come on 00:03:03.385 --> 00:03:08.325 their podcast if they got to pay to do that or what um but um it's called off 00:03:08.325 --> 00:03:13.045 the pulpit and uh we'll we'll we'll link it here. 00:03:13.565 --> 00:03:18.945 And Thomas, one of the hosts, is a guy that I did a cohort with, 00:03:19.185 --> 00:03:21.365 an executive pastor cohort with 00:03:21.365 --> 00:03:24.785 a couple years ago now. It must have been five, six years ago by. Wow. 00:03:26.225 --> 00:03:28.545 And anyway. Did you just time travel, Cameron? A little bit. 00:03:30.105 --> 00:03:33.905 And I'm pretty sure, I know I'm not the executive pastor anymore. 00:03:34.005 --> 00:03:36.005 I don't think he's executive pastor anymore either. 00:03:36.165 --> 00:03:40.885 But anyway, he asked this question on his personal Facebook Facebook page or 00:03:40.885 --> 00:03:44.125 not because this question, but he, he, it was a kind of more of a statement 00:03:44.125 --> 00:03:50.065 about the traditional ways in which churches are distinguished across the. 00:03:51.802 --> 00:03:54.482 Um eras yeah or 00:03:54.482 --> 00:03:57.342 time periods so like if you were to ask the 00:03:57.342 --> 00:04:00.622 question well what was the church known for the 50s 00:04:00.622 --> 00:04:03.402 the 60s what was the church for known for in the 00:04:03.402 --> 00:04:06.562 70s it's kind of it's like own little era the 70s 00:04:06.562 --> 00:04:14.682 uh what was the church known for 80s 90s 2000s all that so um here is i don't 00:04:14.682 --> 00:04:20.382 know if this is his opinion or if he was just asking for insight but he said 00:04:20.382 --> 00:04:23.862 the traditional way to to distinguish churches in the 90s and the 2000s. 00:04:23.882 --> 00:04:27.102 So how would you know the difference between? 00:04:27.482 --> 00:04:31.162 Like if you're church shopping and you're like, these are the key questions 00:04:31.162 --> 00:04:35.682 I need to know about this church to decide whether or not I'm going to fit here. 00:04:35.922 --> 00:04:38.962 Yeah, maybe it would be like the questions that you would want to interview 00:04:38.962 --> 00:04:40.822 the pastor or the leadership about. 00:04:41.062 --> 00:04:44.322 Right, right. Or you're scouring their website to try and figure out what do 00:04:44.322 --> 00:04:46.262 they think about this, this, and this. Yes. 00:04:46.662 --> 00:04:50.202 Yeah. Those things maybe change over time. 00:04:50.322 --> 00:04:55.742 Right. Yeah. Yeah, and so the idea here is, okay, well, what would have been 00:04:55.742 --> 00:05:00.522 those questions that you would have wanted answered in like the 90s and the 00:05:00.522 --> 00:05:04.362 2000s, the early 2000s? And there'd be questions like this. 00:05:04.542 --> 00:05:07.362 What is your view on predestination? 00:05:09.062 --> 00:05:15.042 So it's like, am I predestined to be saved? Or I don't even know that predestined 00:05:15.042 --> 00:05:20.742 just totally encapsulates like soteriology, like the theology of salvation. 00:05:21.042 --> 00:05:25.502 Or are you Calvinist or Arminian? Sure. Are you double predestination? Right. 00:05:27.442 --> 00:05:31.062 What's your view on baptism? So predestination. What's your view on baptism? 00:05:31.622 --> 00:05:35.062 What's your view on the end times? That's a big one. Yeah. What's your view 00:05:35.062 --> 00:05:39.562 on the end times? Right. And then what's your view on spiritual gifts? 00:05:41.022 --> 00:05:47.182 Well, so as time goes on, and now we're in like the 2010s to 2020s. 00:05:47.182 --> 00:05:48.942 Yep. Where we kind of are now. 00:05:50.462 --> 00:05:53.282 Modern way to distinguish churches, church between churches, 00:05:53.282 --> 00:05:56.482 these questions. What is your view on the role of women? 00:05:57.442 --> 00:06:03.682 I'm presuming in ministry what's your view on social justice big topic there, 00:06:04.562 --> 00:06:09.162 what's your view on spiritual abuse what's your 00:06:09.162 --> 00:06:18.122 response to lgbtq plus scenarios yeah yeah so first that was i thought it was 00:06:18.122 --> 00:06:24.502 an interesting question i think it's very interesting too And so I wanted to 00:06:24.502 --> 00:06:26.602 talk a little bit about that. 00:06:26.662 --> 00:06:29.122 And I think one, I think let's talk about one. 00:06:29.222 --> 00:06:33.082 Is the list accurate according to time periods? 00:06:33.662 --> 00:06:37.002 Would you add or subtract anything to either of those lists? 00:06:37.142 --> 00:06:41.262 I have some things that I think I would like to talk about around this, 00:06:41.302 --> 00:06:43.562 like adding things to them. Yeah. 00:06:45.722 --> 00:06:51.742 And then maybe responding to like, maybe we could try and ask the question. 00:06:51.802 --> 00:06:54.462 Maybe we can kind of forecast what 00:06:54.462 --> 00:06:58.242 the distinguishing questions people are going to be asking in the next. 00:06:58.342 --> 00:07:01.682 In the next two decades? Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:02.282 --> 00:07:05.582 So let's start with what do we think about the lists? 00:07:06.282 --> 00:07:14.182 I think, you know, like, it's pretty hard to, I'm trying to kind of, 00:07:14.182 --> 00:07:20.282 like, wrap my mind around, because, like, you only ever know your sphere, right? So... 00:07:21.285 --> 00:07:29.405 I'm assuming that that list makes a lot of sense in the broad evangelical kind 00:07:29.405 --> 00:07:34.725 of bleeding into Baptist, Protestant, 00:07:34.885 --> 00:07:37.625 not mainline denomination world. 00:07:39.385 --> 00:07:44.685 Do you think that those lists are as... Do you think that... 00:07:44.685 --> 00:07:48.805 Because I've never really been in denominationalism very much, 00:07:48.965 --> 00:07:50.745 particularly back then. 00:07:51.285 --> 00:08:00.145 Do you feel like those lists change if you're in maybe a different sector of the church group? 00:08:00.345 --> 00:08:05.265 Do you feel like that accurately describes the questions that people were asking 00:08:05.265 --> 00:08:07.325 in some of the mainline denominations? 00:08:09.025 --> 00:08:15.245 Yes and no. Because I think that one of the benefits of denominationalism is 00:08:15.245 --> 00:08:20.525 that there's not a whole lot of question about what the actual stated theology is. is. 00:08:20.705 --> 00:08:24.925 You're like, well, this is Presbyterian or this is Anglican. 00:08:25.185 --> 00:08:30.165 It is written in, you know, according to whatever your guiding documents are. 00:08:30.285 --> 00:08:32.525 I came out of Methodism, right? The Methodist Church. 00:08:32.745 --> 00:08:36.805 It was the Book of Discipline, which just had everything. Right. 00:08:37.865 --> 00:08:46.225 And you could go to the Book of Discipline and you could get a definitive answer 00:08:46.225 --> 00:08:52.605 on what the church, church, the Methodist church, the United Methodist church, believed on paper. 00:08:52.965 --> 00:08:57.765 Yes, on paper, which is not always the same. No, about that subject and that 00:08:57.765 --> 00:08:58.565 subject and that subject. 00:08:58.705 --> 00:09:03.585 And not every subject is covered, right? Because some of these things we would 00:09:03.585 --> 00:09:05.705 consider secondary theological issues. 00:09:05.905 --> 00:09:08.885 In fact, I think a lot of them are kind of secondary theological issues. 00:09:09.105 --> 00:09:13.805 But if they're the questions that people are asking, then are they really secondary? 00:09:15.165 --> 00:09:20.485 I don't know. But what I would say is that the benefit of denominationalism 00:09:20.485 --> 00:09:23.905 is that generally you know what the denomination believes. 00:09:24.045 --> 00:09:27.105 Now, whether or not the individual church or the individual pastor or leadership 00:09:27.105 --> 00:09:32.125 team upholds those theological beliefs is a completely different can of worms 00:09:32.125 --> 00:09:38.985 that essentially is one of the major things that kind of just split the United Methodist Church. 00:09:38.985 --> 00:09:41.785 Right well yeah like that's the thing is like 00:09:41.785 --> 00:09:44.785 as we're talking about this i'm like well like there 00:09:44.785 --> 00:09:48.145 have been like over the last like decade there 00:09:48.145 --> 00:09:53.845 have been significant you know splits shifts changes in the mainline denominations 00:09:53.845 --> 00:10:00.945 over some of those issues yeah 100 well and you could you could take any of 00:10:00.945 --> 00:10:06.325 those four things from the 90s and 2000s to 2000s 2020s. 00:10:09.365 --> 00:10:14.345 And you could say you were a person who was coming here interviewing the pastors 00:10:14.345 --> 00:10:17.045 to see what they thought on these issues. 00:10:18.755 --> 00:10:24.455 Imagine them sitting down with us in my office, and I have a Methodist background, 00:10:24.635 --> 00:10:32.935 educated at Wesleyan undergrad, Wesleyan seminary. 00:10:33.335 --> 00:10:38.955 You came from Moody. Which is dispensational, yet kind of Calvinist, 00:10:38.955 --> 00:10:42.055 yet conservative, like just kind of all over the place. 00:10:42.055 --> 00:10:47.195 But not necessarily, you're not necessarily like a born and bred Calvinist. 00:10:47.215 --> 00:10:51.515 Or born and bread dispensationalist definitely not so 00:10:51.515 --> 00:10:54.355 um in a 00:10:54.355 --> 00:10:57.435 non-denominational church such as ours which we serve you 00:10:57.435 --> 00:11:00.275 could sit down and you could have the wesleyan perspective 00:11:00.275 --> 00:11:04.375 on baptism but you could have a baptist perspective 00:11:04.375 --> 00:11:07.335 on the role of women or you could have a progressive 00:11:07.335 --> 00:11:10.695 view right on lgb lgbdq plus 00:11:10.695 --> 00:11:14.275 scenarios or you could have a very conservative view on 00:11:14.275 --> 00:11:17.035 them and all of those those things kind of 00:11:17.035 --> 00:11:20.235 like right mix and match into this theological 00:11:20.235 --> 00:11:23.095 and methodological stew that you find 00:11:23.095 --> 00:11:26.135 in an individual church yeah and it's 00:11:26.135 --> 00:11:29.335 not it doesn't align itself with 00:11:29.335 --> 00:11:33.895 one particular theological tradition um so 00:11:33.895 --> 00:11:37.875 to answer the question non-denominationalism makes 00:11:37.875 --> 00:11:41.115 it really confusing because you don't know what you're getting right and 00:11:41.115 --> 00:11:44.175 then you've got a so you as an individual person have 00:11:44.175 --> 00:11:46.915 to like you have to come up with your own 00:11:46.915 --> 00:11:49.815 book of discipline as it were or 00:11:49.815 --> 00:11:53.115 standard of what what am i going to accept and 00:11:53.115 --> 00:11:58.115 what are the major categories that i want to know that my church aligns with 00:11:58.115 --> 00:12:03.895 and what and what am i willing to disagree with yeah and still be there we talked 00:12:03.895 --> 00:12:08.455 a lot about that on this podcast just about like primary secondary tertiary 00:12:08.455 --> 00:12:11.275 theological beliefs and and what breaks unity. 00:12:11.415 --> 00:12:14.015 And what doesn't, and what's going to make me go to another church, 00:12:14.035 --> 00:12:19.155 and what's not, and what can I live with, and what can I not. And... 00:12:22.041 --> 00:12:27.221 You know, sometimes, I mean, like, to be perfectly honest with you, 00:12:27.241 --> 00:12:31.221 sometimes I don't know what I believe about these issues or my thoughts change. 00:12:31.861 --> 00:12:39.301 Yeah. Yeah. Over time. Mm-hmm. My thoughts have drifted on baptism. Mm-hmm. 00:12:40.081 --> 00:12:44.981 Primarily, like, who I'll baptize and who I won't. Yeah. 00:12:46.821 --> 00:12:57.761 In particular, their age. Mm-hmm. Um, my thoughts on baptism have changed in regards to like, um, 00:12:58.061 --> 00:13:04.841 and they're still changing and I still am unsure, but like, what is the role 00:13:04.841 --> 00:13:08.041 of catechesis in baptism? 00:13:08.041 --> 00:13:09.341 In baptism? Yeah. 00:13:10.161 --> 00:13:11.701 Both pre and post? Yep. 00:13:15.641 --> 00:13:20.441 And so, yeah, so it's not even like as simple as being like, 00:13:20.541 --> 00:13:22.261 well, what do you believe on baptism? 00:13:22.361 --> 00:13:24.121 Okay, that's what you're always going to believe on baptism. 00:13:24.201 --> 00:13:26.681 Yeah, I'm coming here. Yeah. Yep. You know. 00:13:28.521 --> 00:13:37.541 So I think that like that 90s list, like, yeah, I think it was definitely a... 00:13:39.659 --> 00:13:42.899 Because what was it? It was view on spiritual gifts. 00:13:44.179 --> 00:13:47.659 Predestination. Predestination. Baptism. Baptism. End times. 00:13:47.859 --> 00:13:51.579 End times. And spiritual gifts. End times was a big one there for a long time. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:53.759 It was huge. Because of like. 00:13:54.319 --> 00:13:57.359 Left behind. Yeah, left behind. Are you Jerry B. Jenkins? 00:13:57.859 --> 00:14:02.219 Like, are you going to, like, is Nikolai Karpathia going to take over the world? 00:14:02.479 --> 00:14:06.039 Wow, you read him, didn't you? Oh my gosh, I went to his college. 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:14.079 No, I read the teen version, Cameron. I read the teen version. 00:14:14.599 --> 00:14:21.419 My mom read the adult version, but Jerry Jenkins is heavily involved in the upper leadership. 00:14:21.499 --> 00:14:24.599 We had a building named after him. I did not know this. At our college, 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:25.299 yeah. I didn't know that. 00:14:25.479 --> 00:14:30.519 Yeah. So he was like, was, is on the board? I don't know. I guess that makes 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:32.719 sense now, Moody being in dispensational school. 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:36.259 Yeah. so he's you know it was all the 00:14:36.259 --> 00:14:39.319 students joked uh that it was moody publishing's worst 00:14:39.319 --> 00:14:43.339 decision to not publish his books because they weren't published through moody 00:14:43.339 --> 00:14:46.559 they were published through somebody else i mean financial decision yeah yeah 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:50.599 for sure but he's you know supported the institution a lot and stuff like that 00:14:50.599 --> 00:14:55.119 anyways i don't really know that much about jenkins but um i know more than 00:14:55.119 --> 00:14:57.919 the average person maybe but um Um, 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:02.179 I'm going down a rabbit trail. 00:15:02.199 --> 00:15:06.099 Are you embarrassed now for revealing how much you know about the Left Behind series? 00:15:06.999 --> 00:15:10.719 A little bit. I mean, I, I mean, I watched those. I watched that first, 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:13.779 um, that first Left Behind movie with, um. 00:15:13.999 --> 00:15:16.859 I hope Kurt Cameron's not watching the podcast today. 00:15:17.119 --> 00:15:18.999 He's going to be real disappointed in our opinion. 00:15:19.599 --> 00:15:22.459 I couldn't make it through the Nicolas Cage one though. 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:27.099 I like got like 10 minutes into it. I had to turn it off and which is unusual for me. 00:15:27.099 --> 00:15:32.439 I'll watch just about any nicholas cage movie um but what 00:15:32.439 --> 00:15:35.299 were we talking oh yeah just like not dispensationalism but like 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:42.279 end times like yes is it all millennial is it post post millennial pre-millennial 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:53.159 pre-trib post-trib oh my gosh um and that was a big one um people were really like Like, still. 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:59.079 Yeah. People will still get... Oh, they get fired up about that. 00:15:59.479 --> 00:16:04.679 Fired up. Like, you are not a Christian if you don't believe in the rapture. Right. 00:16:05.859 --> 00:16:06.859 I don't believe... 00:16:07.935 --> 00:16:11.915 I am not a rapture apologist. I don't believe in the rapture. Really? 00:16:12.215 --> 00:16:16.395 No, I don't. Not in the classic left-behind sense. 00:16:17.015 --> 00:16:19.335 Like when you say rapture, what do people think? 00:16:20.135 --> 00:16:23.255 Oh, they think like. You're going to walk into the room and there's going to 00:16:23.255 --> 00:16:25.975 be clothes there. Like somehow God just took me naked. 00:16:26.995 --> 00:16:30.255 Like he's like, nope, you don't need that Patagonia fleece in heaven. 00:16:30.415 --> 00:16:34.655 I'm taking you naked, boy. I have stories about that. 00:16:35.935 --> 00:16:41.355 And I know that there are like youth groups in the 90s who pulled pranks on 00:16:41.355 --> 00:16:47.075 people of like setting out a bunch of clothes and convincing people that they missed the rapture. 00:16:47.675 --> 00:16:53.795 And like as far as that type of rapture is concerned, no, I don't believe in it. 00:16:53.815 --> 00:16:56.715 I don't believe that it's firmly established in scripture. 00:16:56.895 --> 00:17:01.935 I don't believe that it was a firmly established theology or belief in the history of the church. 00:17:01.935 --> 00:17:04.875 Church um do i believe 00:17:04.875 --> 00:17:07.935 that we will be all caught up into the air with christ 00:17:07.935 --> 00:17:11.275 yes but that's not like what does 00:17:11.275 --> 00:17:14.055 that mean right that that means yeah when 00:17:14.055 --> 00:17:17.635 when jesus comes back we're gonna be with him yeah right like 00:17:17.635 --> 00:17:20.435 um not that 00:17:20.435 --> 00:17:23.555 somehow i'm gonna disappear from the earth and there's 00:17:23.555 --> 00:17:26.255 gonna be a bunch of people walking around like cars will 00:17:26.255 --> 00:17:28.915 crash planes will crash and you know everyone's going 00:17:28.915 --> 00:17:32.155 to be like what happened yeah you know i wonder like 00:17:32.155 --> 00:17:35.695 no don't buy it don't get it yeah i 00:17:35.695 --> 00:17:39.395 don't know i actually i've i've because like it's like 00:17:39.395 --> 00:17:42.155 one of those topics that was it was always last on the 00:17:42.155 --> 00:17:45.035 syllabus in all of my which is surprising because 00:17:45.035 --> 00:17:49.515 i went to a dispensational school but um like all 00:17:49.515 --> 00:17:53.355 that end time stuff was always like the last thing you talked about in theology 00:17:53.355 --> 00:17:57.515 class and so if the professor was like running short on time it was the part 00:17:57.515 --> 00:18:01.775 that always always got skipped over because that should tell you something yeah 00:18:01.775 --> 00:18:06.555 i think i i mean like i don't mean to be like snippy or facetious about it but 00:18:06.555 --> 00:18:07.895 like that should tell you something yeah. 00:18:08.962 --> 00:18:14.422 No, it's, I just, I don't, I think the, do you believe in the rapture? 00:18:14.522 --> 00:18:16.962 I don't know. Do we need to talk about this? I actually don't know, 00:18:17.062 --> 00:18:19.142 Cameron. I'm like, I don't know. 00:18:19.242 --> 00:18:24.622 I kind of like, I was, cause I was in the evangelical free church of America 00:18:24.622 --> 00:18:33.302 and they were a like pre-trib, I think they were like a, like strong, like pre-trib or was it? 00:18:33.582 --> 00:18:36.402 Which if you're listening and you're not exactly sure what we mean, 00:18:36.442 --> 00:18:39.502 like that the rapture will happened pre or before 00:18:39.502 --> 00:18:43.022 yeah the tribulation yeah and she's 00:18:43.022 --> 00:18:45.842 also a i won't comment sorry 00:18:45.842 --> 00:18:51.022 go ahead no and and i was kind of like i was like i don't know about that because 00:18:51.022 --> 00:18:54.622 i was in the denomination and i was seeking i was kind of like should i seek 00:18:54.622 --> 00:18:57.942 ordination through the denomination because that was the denomination i was 00:18:57.942 --> 00:19:04.302 uh serving under at the time and the denomination had like a vote couple years ago now, 00:19:04.542 --> 00:19:08.022 and they had a vote and they decided to change the language of the belief statement 00:19:08.022 --> 00:19:12.642 from pre-trib return to glorious return. 00:19:13.602 --> 00:19:15.822 Christ will have a glorious return. 00:19:17.442 --> 00:19:20.422 And essentially, they just say, like, you need to believe... 00:19:20.422 --> 00:19:21.782 So says the Bible. So says the Bible. 00:19:22.842 --> 00:19:27.022 Agreed. You need to believe that Jesus is coming back, and that's the requirement 00:19:27.022 --> 00:19:30.462 for participation in the denomination. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I can do that. 00:19:31.082 --> 00:19:33.862 And so that's kind of just where I've always... I've kind of been. 00:19:33.982 --> 00:19:36.062 I'm just like, I don't know. I... 00:19:38.042 --> 00:19:42.322 And it's never been the theological topic I've really been all that interested 00:19:42.322 --> 00:19:48.862 in, and so I don't actually know what I really think about that. I think I'm not the... 00:19:50.012 --> 00:19:54.732 We are just building future podcast topics. We are right now. 00:19:55.052 --> 00:19:59.752 I don't think I'm – what was the – what's the one where you think we're in the 00:19:59.752 --> 00:20:03.372 millennial now and we're just building – Isn't that amillennialism? 00:20:03.672 --> 00:20:08.332 Amillennialism. I don't think I'm amillennial. I can say that with some certainty. Yeah. 00:20:09.052 --> 00:20:19.952 Partly because that theology has been tied to some bad sociological movement 00:20:19.952 --> 00:20:22.352 spurred by Christians in the past. 00:20:22.612 --> 00:20:27.492 This kind of belief that all progress is good progress because we're in the 00:20:27.492 --> 00:20:30.592 millennial and we're building a church and we must continue to, 00:20:30.672 --> 00:20:35.732 I don't know, it kind of bled into imperialism and things like that. 00:20:35.732 --> 00:20:38.912 So i just generally don't like that one but 00:20:38.912 --> 00:20:41.732 um but anyways 00:20:41.732 --> 00:20:44.832 there was this other there was this other topic um i 00:20:44.832 --> 00:20:50.152 was going to ask you if you felt like it needed to be added um and you would 00:20:50.152 --> 00:20:53.692 be a better person to ask than me because i was because you're because you're 00:20:53.692 --> 00:20:58.952 older than me um what but i can't for what's the what's the theological term 00:20:58.952 --> 00:21:02.772 for the debate over whether or not god can change change his mind? 00:21:06.832 --> 00:21:09.392 Do you remember? It's on the tip of my tongue. 00:21:14.273 --> 00:21:18.213 I don't remember off the top. Immutability? The immutability of God, 00:21:18.253 --> 00:21:19.473 the changeability of God. Changeability. 00:21:19.673 --> 00:21:23.293 Immutability, that's what it is. Was that like, I was told by different people 00:21:23.293 --> 00:21:26.093 that at different points that's been like a big dividing issue. 00:21:26.233 --> 00:21:28.733 Was that, does that make that list to you? 00:21:28.973 --> 00:21:34.633 No. No? Not in my experience, no. Yeah. I mean, it was a topic of conversation 00:21:34.633 --> 00:21:42.033 for us dorks at theology school, but it wasn't like a, it wasn't a distinguishing 00:21:42.033 --> 00:21:43.353 question that I saw in the church. 00:21:43.573 --> 00:21:45.673 Yeah. Yeah. Are you a Molinist, Cameron? I'm not. 00:21:46.473 --> 00:21:50.093 We're going to set some people down really weird rabbit holes if they start 00:21:50.093 --> 00:21:51.633 Googling Molinism. Yeah. 00:21:52.533 --> 00:21:54.713 No, like, it is a good question. 00:21:56.313 --> 00:22:00.773 I have some thoughts on the immutability of God, the changeability of God. 00:22:02.433 --> 00:22:07.293 I was just reading in my personal reading, 00:22:07.393 --> 00:22:11.533 reading back through the Old Testament right now, and was just reading yesterday 00:22:11.533 --> 00:22:18.133 or so about Abraham's conversation with God in regards to the destruction of 00:22:18.133 --> 00:22:20.033 Sodom and Gomorrah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:22:20.853 --> 00:22:25.573 He has kind of the same conversation with Moses. Yeah, because God's gonna like... 00:22:25.573 --> 00:22:26.913 God's like, I'm destroying everything. 00:22:27.073 --> 00:22:32.313 Yeah, he's gonna kill all the Israelites after having just saved them. Yes. Say bye-bye. 00:22:33.133 --> 00:22:38.273 Say bye-bye. And with the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah too. 00:22:38.273 --> 00:22:42.153 And abram's like yeah but does does 00:22:42.153 --> 00:22:45.173 that really is that really in line with your holiness yeah 00:22:45.173 --> 00:22:48.473 well they go back and forth they do they like god 00:22:48.473 --> 00:22:52.213 keeps how about a thousand how about a hundred how about 50 how about 10 how 00:22:52.213 --> 00:22:58.773 about one yeah and every time it's like god's like okay maybe that's not exactly 00:22:58.773 --> 00:23:07.853 the tone sure sure um but the reality there is is that it seems as though god here Here would be my... 00:23:09.178 --> 00:23:17.558 Way to talk about that is not that god is fickle um but that god allows himself, 00:23:18.678 --> 00:23:21.578 to be moved so to speak 00:23:21.578 --> 00:23:26.778 by his children yeah like it's not that like god doesn't know he's like heaven 00:23:26.778 --> 00:23:30.238 and haunt up in heaven like doesn't know what the best thing is right it's that 00:23:30.238 --> 00:23:35.398 he like a child is moved like a like a parent is moved by the request of their 00:23:35.398 --> 00:23:39.978 child god is moved by by the request of those he loves and cares for. 00:23:42.558 --> 00:23:47.018 This is one of the reasons that we believe in, like that God hears our prayers 00:23:47.018 --> 00:23:48.958 and listens and answers, right? 00:23:49.058 --> 00:23:53.878 Is not because he's unwilling to do something, right? 00:23:53.958 --> 00:23:57.598 And we cajole him into doing it, but because he loves us. 00:23:57.738 --> 00:24:04.518 You know, if you as a father, you know, like if your child is hungry, do you give him a stone? 00:24:04.518 --> 00:24:11.378 You know no you give them bread why because you love them and they have asked you know um. 00:24:13.118 --> 00:24:16.598 So no i don't remember that being a 00:24:16.598 --> 00:24:19.818 distinguishing mark in the church i what i was going to say in terms of that 00:24:19.818 --> 00:24:24.878 first list is if i had to add something it's maybe not so much a theological 00:24:24.878 --> 00:24:30.438 topic as it is a methodological topic but i would talk about like the that the 00:24:30.438 --> 00:24:34.278 the rise and the the pervasiveness of the church growth movement. 00:24:35.178 --> 00:24:36.698 I was thinking... 00:24:38.265 --> 00:24:44.785 Worship style. Certainly. Maybe a separate post or a separate... 00:24:44.785 --> 00:24:50.945 Thomas, if you end up listening to this, a separate post, a separate topic of 00:24:50.945 --> 00:24:54.125 conversation would be not so much... Because these are all pretty much theological. 00:24:54.185 --> 00:24:57.025 Well, no, they're not theological. Maybe they are. I don't know. 00:24:57.245 --> 00:25:02.125 The second list is not so much theological, I don't think, as the first in my 00:25:02.125 --> 00:25:06.265 mind, but but you probably push me on that and I would change my mind. 00:25:07.785 --> 00:25:14.425 But there certainly is ministry methodology and ministry philosophy things that 00:25:14.425 --> 00:25:16.965 distinguish churches in those two eras as well. 00:25:17.185 --> 00:25:22.745 And I was going to say the church growth movement, I feel like is one of them. Worship is one of them. 00:25:22.785 --> 00:25:25.385 Which those two are closely linked. 00:25:25.605 --> 00:25:30.925 Yes. The nature of evangelism or the method of evangelism, I think is one of them. 00:25:32.825 --> 00:25:39.285 But, yeah, I'm talking about the rise of the Bill Hybels by the 90s and 2000s. 00:25:39.285 --> 00:25:44.145 That was already kind of firmly established in the Rick Warrens. Yeah. 00:25:44.525 --> 00:25:48.365 And not even so much the personalities, but the methodologies. 00:25:48.365 --> 00:25:49.885 Do we do a Sunday school? Do we do a small group? 00:25:50.105 --> 00:25:52.625 Do we? We're seeker-sensitive. We're purpose-driven. 00:25:54.485 --> 00:26:00.325 We're moving away from small community church to- We're orange. We're sticky. Right. 00:26:00.725 --> 00:26:05.485 Right. Right. Moving away from small community churches to big mega churches 00:26:05.485 --> 00:26:09.025 as the desire of every church and every pastor. 00:26:09.165 --> 00:26:12.725 Church growth. If we're not growing, we're not being faithful. 00:26:12.905 --> 00:26:14.465 If we're not growing, we're not being fruitful. 00:26:14.805 --> 00:26:19.765 If we're not growing, if we're not big, we're not making a difference for the 00:26:19.765 --> 00:26:22.185 kingdom or for the people or the community or whatever. 00:26:25.167 --> 00:26:32.107 I see, the reason I talk about that in that time period is because I feel like 00:26:32.107 --> 00:26:33.627 we're seeing less of that. 00:26:34.087 --> 00:26:36.287 I feel like people are arguing about it less. 00:26:37.427 --> 00:26:45.207 What do you mean? Like some of, like, we saw that post the other week, you and I did. 00:26:45.327 --> 00:26:48.367 Somebody was talking about, like, church size and was giving some, 00:26:48.447 --> 00:26:52.007 like, apologetics for, like, big mega churches. 00:26:52.007 --> 00:26:58.627 And some of the criticism the interlocutor that the post was engaging with was 00:26:58.627 --> 00:27:03.327 we felt like kind of outdated like a couple like a decade or two behind the 00:27:03.327 --> 00:27:05.367 question it was kind of like well, 00:27:06.487 --> 00:27:11.247 ax was a mega church was a mega church like you know more people means more 00:27:11.247 --> 00:27:14.487 gospel like all those questions i was like those aren't questions i think most 00:27:14.487 --> 00:27:18.367 people are asking most people are asking the questions that are on that second 00:27:18.367 --> 00:27:22.587 list or would i would addend to that second list of of saying, well, 00:27:22.727 --> 00:27:26.307 doesn't large churches create places for spiritual abuse, 00:27:26.607 --> 00:27:29.327 unhealthy leadership, et cetera, et cetera? 00:27:29.987 --> 00:27:38.147 Or in response to our podcast, I think from last week, does large megachurch 00:27:38.147 --> 00:27:41.707 provide the best place for discipleship? Yeah. 00:27:43.127 --> 00:27:44.587 So I feel like... 00:27:45.890 --> 00:27:51.990 The conversation is happening less around like the, or at least there's a turn towards, 00:27:53.330 --> 00:27:57.290 maybe this is what the next era turns towards and becomes a distinguishing mark 00:27:57.290 --> 00:28:01.510 is like, there's a turn towards a more organic. 00:28:03.150 --> 00:28:09.230 Smaller, intimate, intentional model rather than a build it big, 00:28:09.370 --> 00:28:14.650 build it better, get more people into the same room. 00:28:17.050 --> 00:28:24.590 And become a big place. Now, I am not an anti-mega church guy. Yeah. I'm not. 00:28:26.390 --> 00:28:28.150 I think that they, 00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:35.910 I think it was Tim Keller that was talking about The gospel community. 00:28:36.290 --> 00:28:38.710 The gospel community, the ecosystem of the gospel. 00:28:39.610 --> 00:28:43.650 That was in that podcast. They mentioned it in the podcast that we listened 00:28:43.650 --> 00:28:45.890 to the other week. Say, where did I hear that? 00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:50.850 Yeah, but this idea that a community needs all different types of churches, 00:28:51.050 --> 00:28:56.030 big churches, small churches, monasteries, non-profits, house churches, 00:28:56.110 --> 00:29:00.330 and all of those serve to meet all the different people in their different parts of their faith journey. 00:29:00.990 --> 00:29:05.670 I do think, though, like the trend, unless the trend changes, 00:29:05.790 --> 00:29:10.570 this has been the trend for the last several years, and I think is speeding 00:29:10.570 --> 00:29:12.310 up. I think COVID sped it up. 00:29:14.330 --> 00:29:21.050 The trend has been smaller churches are disappearing and megachurches are getting bigger. 00:29:22.070 --> 00:29:27.190 So that's been the trend so far, at least, in recent times, is that it seems 00:29:27.190 --> 00:29:30.590 to be that we're consolidating. Centralized. 00:29:31.110 --> 00:29:35.090 Centralized. This is my kind of negative. 00:29:37.410 --> 00:29:44.050 I'll be a little negative. I think this could be, I hope that this is wrong, but I could see... 00:29:45.332 --> 00:29:52.852 The rise of what we could call as like branded churches rather more than denominational focused churches. 00:29:53.092 --> 00:29:58.792 So like we're a, like this kind of already exists with churches that are like Hillsong. 00:29:59.852 --> 00:30:04.292 Whereas Hillsong functions more as a brand than it does a denomination. 00:30:04.892 --> 00:30:10.272 And the rise of churches like that. So big successful churches who create something 00:30:10.272 --> 00:30:13.232 that's closer and I'm being a little pejorative. 00:30:13.232 --> 00:30:16.652 So like um um by 00:30:16.652 --> 00:30:19.612 calling it a brand and not like a church group or something like 00:30:19.612 --> 00:30:23.052 that um but then you kind 00:30:23.052 --> 00:30:25.812 of consolidate like do you it's kind of like do you go to wagmans or 00:30:25.812 --> 00:30:28.812 tops kind of become something more along those 00:30:28.812 --> 00:30:31.672 lines um and then you know 00:30:31.672 --> 00:30:34.472 there will be the there will always be the people who 00:30:34.472 --> 00:30:38.032 are like no like die hard small local church um 00:30:38.032 --> 00:30:41.152 but those will become less and less as the bigger churches and 00:30:41.152 --> 00:30:43.912 as less people go to church in general because we're just 00:30:43.912 --> 00:30:47.792 seeing a sharp decline in church attendance and seeing 00:30:47.792 --> 00:30:52.312 an uptick in the amount of people who go to mega churches what is the what is 00:30:52.312 --> 00:30:55.952 the definition or the the difference between a branded church and a denominational 00:30:55.952 --> 00:30:59.572 church i don't really know other than i that's why i'm saying that maybe i'm 00:30:59.572 --> 00:31:05.072 being a little pejorative unfairly here um because because i was trying to think 00:31:05.072 --> 00:31:06.472 i I think Hillsong is a great example, 00:31:06.672 --> 00:31:08.652 but I was trying to think of another example. Right. 00:31:09.532 --> 00:31:13.852 Bethel's kind of there. They do have, they're not as well, there's not as many, 00:31:13.972 --> 00:31:16.292 but you can have a church underneath Bethel. 00:31:20.572 --> 00:31:25.412 There's Acts 29. Are they still a thing? They are still a thing, I think. 00:31:25.912 --> 00:31:29.612 They've kind of, I mean, I've kind of stepped out of that, paying attention 00:31:29.612 --> 00:31:32.512 to that community a lot. Is it the Harvest Association? 00:31:33.492 --> 00:31:36.992 I think. from out of chicago do they did 00:31:36.992 --> 00:31:40.732 they dissolve i don't they may have dissolved after um 00:31:40.732 --> 00:31:49.052 james mcdonald's ugly exit um so i don't know could be or they're all like vertical 00:31:49.052 --> 00:31:52.092 churches or something like that yeah that's what they were the church network 00:31:52.092 --> 00:31:55.292 or the vertical church network so i don't know if that's like these associations 00:31:55.292 --> 00:31:58.932 or networks of churches yeah i'm calling Home denominations were networks. 00:31:59.292 --> 00:32:02.692 Right. ARC, Associated Related Churches. Yeah. 00:32:03.412 --> 00:32:08.372 Harbor Network. Uh-huh. Converge Network. Yep. Those are all networks of churches. 00:32:08.512 --> 00:32:10.852 There's like another one that's like a new thing. 00:32:12.474 --> 00:32:17.834 New Thing Network? I think that was a thing. SBC. Yeah. 00:32:19.094 --> 00:32:22.934 Well, yeah. What are they? It is an interesting question because they do have 00:32:22.934 --> 00:32:26.934 belief statements that they ask all their leaders and churches to adhere to. 00:32:27.414 --> 00:32:31.974 There is generally a leadership structure. 00:32:33.754 --> 00:32:38.854 And there's less. I think there's usually less. 00:32:38.854 --> 00:32:42.194 Um but there's there's there's usually 00:32:42.194 --> 00:32:45.074 at least a top-down structure i think 00:32:45.074 --> 00:32:47.834 the thing that's kind of lacking in some of those is that 00:32:47.834 --> 00:32:51.334 there's not always a bottom-up structure so 00:32:51.334 --> 00:32:56.974 in a lot of denominations there's room or the ability for um people to kind 00:32:56.974 --> 00:33:03.194 of exercise authority upwards and affect the the denomination um positively 00:33:03.194 --> 00:33:08.754 through accountability from the lower ranks whereas i I think if you're a Hillsong church, 00:33:09.414 --> 00:33:16.194 I don't think you're able to say make Hillsong over in Australia change policy or do something. 00:33:16.574 --> 00:33:21.334 You're kind of agreeing to operate underneath their LLC and all that stuff. 00:33:23.094 --> 00:33:28.994 And so in that way, I think that's maybe one of the biggest differences that 00:33:28.994 --> 00:33:33.974 I would maybe say is that there's less mutuality in the way that it's led, 00:33:34.114 --> 00:33:38.714 and it's a little bit more more top-down rather than top-down and bottom-up. 00:33:39.734 --> 00:33:40.294 Maybe. 00:33:41.934 --> 00:33:43.614 Okay. What about the second list? 00:33:45.394 --> 00:33:48.354 I think that's pretty accurate. 00:33:52.054 --> 00:33:57.494 Because it was, what, women in ministry, social justice. The role of women. 00:33:57.634 --> 00:34:03.614 Role of women. Social justice, spiritual abuse, LGBTQ+. 00:34:03.614 --> 00:34:15.554 Yeah. No, I think we don't see a ton in our area of our view on social justice necessarily. 00:34:15.934 --> 00:34:19.554 It's not a question that I think we get asked very often, if at all. 00:34:20.114 --> 00:34:25.714 But I know it's a big one in other areas, other regions and things like that. 00:34:25.774 --> 00:34:29.594 I think I want more on the topic or more about like. 00:34:29.734 --> 00:34:33.654 What that exactly is. Yeah, like if someone were to ask me, what's your view 00:34:33.654 --> 00:34:39.594 on social justice, I would want to know, what do you mean by social justice? 00:34:39.794 --> 00:34:42.174 Right. Like, what do you think of when you think of social justice? 00:34:42.274 --> 00:34:45.134 What are you actually asking? 00:34:45.334 --> 00:34:53.834 Yeah. You know, do I believe that God is a God of justice and that the church 00:34:53.834 --> 00:35:00.434 can be on the forefront of pursuing justice for disenfranchised, 00:35:00.454 --> 00:35:02.114 ostracized, 00:35:02.154 --> 00:35:04.994 marginalized people? Yeah. 00:35:05.434 --> 00:35:08.114 100%. Yeah. Right. 100%. 00:35:10.664 --> 00:35:18.184 How is that pursued by a church, I think is the question for me. 00:35:18.304 --> 00:35:28.164 Do we pursue it through what I would loosely call gospel-centric, 00:35:28.324 --> 00:35:32.484 gospel-oriented endeavors, programs, whatever? 00:35:32.864 --> 00:35:38.244 Or are we saying, no, it's important for social justice reasons, 00:35:38.244 --> 00:35:44.524 reasons for churches to engage in and enter into the current political system 00:35:44.524 --> 00:35:49.984 in order to gain traction on what we believe are social justice issues. 00:35:50.384 --> 00:35:56.744 That for me would be the more pressing question, but I would want to know too 00:35:56.744 --> 00:35:58.044 what that meant. Like what that meant. 00:35:58.284 --> 00:36:04.684 What do you mean by social justice? Also, what do you mean by the role of women? Right. 00:36:04.824 --> 00:36:13.724 Are you talking more broadly to, like, are we talking about the role of women, 00:36:13.784 --> 00:36:17.724 like, in marriage, like, complementarian versus egalitarian? Mm-hmm. 00:36:20.504 --> 00:36:26.764 So, or are we talking about just in ministry inside of the, like, 00:36:26.884 --> 00:36:29.544 the organizational part of the church? 00:36:29.664 --> 00:36:32.264 Do they get to be elders, pastors, et cetera? Yep. 00:36:33.064 --> 00:36:36.624 Yep. But would you add anything to that list, that second list? 00:36:46.728 --> 00:36:53.228 I don't think I would. No, I don't think I would, but I would agree with your 00:36:53.228 --> 00:36:58.808 previous statement that those questions are going to be more prominent in different 00:36:58.808 --> 00:37:01.068 areas of the country or the world. Yeah. 00:37:01.588 --> 00:37:05.388 Even those questions are not ones that we usually get here in Western New York, 00:37:05.488 --> 00:37:07.828 or at least in Chaco County in Western New York. 00:37:07.988 --> 00:37:13.048 We'll still occasionally get some of those questions from the first list that 00:37:13.048 --> 00:37:15.048 are kind of maybe older every once in a while. 00:37:15.308 --> 00:37:18.288 That's really interesting. about it's like it's an interesting sociological statement 00:37:18.288 --> 00:37:23.788 about this area it is um but you know there's one thing that i would add to 00:37:23.788 --> 00:37:29.428 both of those lists and it is are there people who are like me at this church 00:37:29.428 --> 00:37:36.788 like i've seen more people leave a church because they're like well. 00:37:37.728 --> 00:37:42.608 I'm kind of the only person in my age group or i'm the only person with kids 00:37:42.608 --> 00:37:52.628 this age or Or I kind of would prefer it to be more along with the music style or whatever. 00:37:53.328 --> 00:37:55.928 I would kind of prefer. I've seen that. 00:37:56.168 --> 00:38:00.948 I think that's kind of an unstated question that a lot of people ask. 00:38:01.048 --> 00:38:07.968 And maybe I'm unfairly shifting into more of what people use as a deciding factor 00:38:07.968 --> 00:38:12.348 as to whether or not they're going to participate in a church and less how they 00:38:12.348 --> 00:38:15.588 distinguish. I think the original post was like, how do you distinguish churches? 00:38:15.988 --> 00:38:19.488 I think that's maybe, I'm probably shifting into a category of like, 00:38:19.548 --> 00:38:22.508 how did people decide whether or not to be at a church? 00:38:24.008 --> 00:38:26.368 But, yeah. Yeah. 00:38:27.923 --> 00:38:32.003 Agree. Yeah. Any more thoughts on that topic or that question or that? 00:38:32.183 --> 00:38:35.243 I mean, I think we could keep talking about it. There's a lot to talk about there. 00:38:36.683 --> 00:38:40.223 What do you think the future of that list will be? 00:38:41.563 --> 00:38:48.043 I think the future, I think one of the future questions or views on that list 00:38:48.043 --> 00:38:51.503 will be around, like, the nature of discipleship. Yeah. 00:38:52.383 --> 00:38:57.223 How do we go about making disciples in the most effective way? Yeah. 00:38:58.003 --> 00:39:01.463 A la the John Mark Colmer, 00:39:01.503 --> 00:39:04.303 Carrie Newhoff conversation that we 00:39:04.303 --> 00:39:07.503 referenced last week and the pathway to discipleship 00:39:07.503 --> 00:39:15.643 and the critical journey and what do we expect out of disciples or apprentices 00:39:15.643 --> 00:39:26.043 to Jesus and what is the purpose and the place of the church? 00:39:27.063 --> 00:39:33.903 That's a pretty question that pretty much everyone every era has had but especially 00:39:33.903 --> 00:39:41.203 in terms of like as the place or the body through which people are discipled 00:39:41.203 --> 00:39:43.483 so i think discipleship and like, 00:39:44.103 --> 00:39:46.963 um a kind of return to the old 00:39:46.963 --> 00:39:51.323 way the old ways is uh next 00:39:51.323 --> 00:39:58.583 thing yeah i think like the flip side of that coin might be like it's asking 00:39:58.583 --> 00:40:03.743 the same question but differently is i feel like there might be come a time 00:40:03.743 --> 00:40:10.643 when people ask uh is this church online enough for me. 00:40:15.023 --> 00:40:18.943 You know so it's kind of like the two ends of the spectrum maybe or kind of 00:40:18.943 --> 00:40:24.823 like Like, maybe the broader way to ask that is like, is this church making 00:40:24.823 --> 00:40:28.343 disciples the way I want to be discipled? 00:40:29.523 --> 00:40:36.783 That makes my stomach hurt. Which part of it? Like, is this church online enough for me? 00:40:37.923 --> 00:40:44.403 I get it. I mean, I get, like, why that's probably a question that's going to distinguish churches. 00:40:44.983 --> 00:40:46.523 But we've talked about this before. 00:40:48.923 --> 00:40:55.563 Like i'm a big craig richelle fan right everyone knows that yeah i i i think 00:40:55.563 --> 00:41:02.303 vr church is redonkulous i think it's dumb and i think it is come on man apple 00:41:02.303 --> 00:41:08.303 vision pro i get it the next wave of computing i get why craig's doing it yeah but i'm like. 00:41:12.223 --> 00:41:19.023 It ain't it. Yeah. Like, it ain't it. And I don't even think this is just like 00:41:19.023 --> 00:41:22.283 a, oh, well, it's not a thing for Conduit and Cameron Lionheart, 00:41:22.343 --> 00:41:24.363 but it must be a thing for Life.Church and Craig Rochelle. 00:41:24.443 --> 00:41:28.043 No, it's not a methodology thing for me. 00:41:28.263 --> 00:41:31.703 I think it's theological thing for me. 00:41:31.903 --> 00:41:35.123 Yeah. You feel like it's crossing into that line of like, all right, 00:41:35.143 --> 00:41:42.663 we have gone too far in disassociating our physical selves from each other and from the ministry. 00:41:43.383 --> 00:41:51.863 100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So I get it, and I think you're right. 00:41:52.803 --> 00:41:57.103 It's not a question that's going away. It's not a distinguishing thing that's going away. 00:41:57.283 --> 00:42:04.983 Right. um but i think the question for me the question that hits me with that is like, 00:42:05.923 --> 00:42:13.703 how prophetic of a voice are you willing to be in that as the as it goes in that direction right, 00:42:14.423 --> 00:42:18.003 like am i willing to call that out or am 00:42:18.003 --> 00:42:21.243 i just gonna say not for me and go my own direction yeah 00:42:21.243 --> 00:42:24.183 yeah i feel passionate about that i 00:42:24.183 --> 00:42:32.583 really really really do um so i feel like i'm gonna be calling it out and i 00:42:32.583 --> 00:42:35.903 know that you know that probably gonna be unpopular for some people but i mean 00:42:35.903 --> 00:42:41.363 i don't i don't know like i i don't think that i'm just like a curmudgeon who 00:42:41.363 --> 00:42:42.403 doesn't like like technology. 00:42:43.383 --> 00:42:47.323 No, I don't feel like that. I feel like that there is a. 00:42:49.943 --> 00:42:53.503 That it's a, it's actually a real thing, but I don't know. 00:42:53.523 --> 00:42:59.863 People could, people can disagree and we can, we can agree that they're wrong and move on. 00:43:02.083 --> 00:43:05.663 All right. Well, send in your questions about VR church for Cameron. 00:43:05.743 --> 00:43:10.023 Yes, please. Craig, we can settle this on the jujitsu mats, bro. 00:43:12.143 --> 00:43:13.563 That is like your life goal. 00:43:16.263 --> 00:43:23.343 Well, thanks for listening, as always, for being here. We will tag the Off the Pulpit podcast. 00:43:23.723 --> 00:43:28.543 And we appreciate that little teaser for our conversation, Thomas. 00:43:28.683 --> 00:43:30.223 Thank you. Appreciate your podcast. 00:43:32.443 --> 00:43:35.943 If you're not subscribed to the Uncut podcast, please subscribe, 00:43:36.143 --> 00:43:39.643 like, share it, rate it, no matter where you're listening or what you're doing. 00:43:39.643 --> 00:43:49.643 If you have any questions for us, you can use our text line, 716-201-0507. 00:43:50.503 --> 00:43:53.883 That sounds right. Okay. I'll fix it if it's not. You're going to fix it if it's not. 00:43:55.803 --> 00:43:57.163 And we'll catch you on the next one. 00:43:57.040 --> 00:44:10.900 Music.